April

3, 2001 SOCIAL SERVICES

COMMITTEE No. 3

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the House of

Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Mr. Sweeney): Order, please!

Good morning, folks. I would like to bring the meeting

to order. I have just a couple of housekeeping duties first. I need a motion to

approve the minutes of the Social Services Committee meetings on Monday, March

26, and on April 2.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Normally, we begin with the minister

speaking for up to fifteen minutes, a

preamble - her opening remarks - but,

before I do that, I would like to introduce the Committee. I am pretty sure

everybody here knows everybody: Sheila Osborne, Bob Mercer, Ross Wiseman, Mary

Hodder, and myself, George Sweeney.

I guess, Minister, if you are ready, we are ready.

MS FOOTE: I am ready.

CHAIR: One thing - and I am rushing things a

little bit this morning - when your officials speak, just introduce yourselves

before you speak so we will know who is who for the minutes.

MS FOOTE: Normally, I would start by saying good

morning. It is probably not such a good idea this morning, so I will say hi.

Joining me this morning is my deputy minister to my

immediate left. Next to Harold Press, we have Bob Young, who is the Assistant

Deputy Minister of Finance. Immediately behind me, Gary Hatcher, Director of

Student Support Services. Next to Gary is Jack Thompson, who also works in our

finance department.

Thank you for this opportunity. I think you have all

heard by now that we have a new focus - a refocus, I guess - in the Department

of Education. With the split from the Department of Youth Services and

Post-Secondary Education, our focus is that much more strongly on the K-12

system, which I think is a good thing. In addition to the K-12 system, of

course, we also have an enhanced focus now on literacy initiatives in the

Province. That comes under the mandate of the department, as well as early

childhood education.

The early childhood education bit is still a component

of the department that we are working on, working with Human Resources and

Employment and with Health and Community Services; because, obviously when you

talk about early childhood development, it impacts on the child in any number of

ways, so the three departments are involved in that. We will be looking at the

early childhood education component of the early childhood development.

We think that, as a government, we certainly have our

priorities straight when it comes to education in this Province. If you look at

this most recent budget, and what we have been able to accomplish, I think it

was no stretch to say that it was in fact an education budget. We will always

have to put money in health, and I think we all recognize that, but when you

make decisions to put money in education, those are conscious decisions. You can

put in as much as you want and still deliver an education, but the more you put

in, of course, the more resources you have and the better the quality of

education.

I am very proud of the budget that we brought down,

and I am very proud of this government and its commitment to improving on an

ongoing basis the quality of education in Newfoundland and Labrador, which I

think is second to none in the country.

Certainly we have shown our commitment if you look at

the fact that we have not removed any teachers from the system, even though we

have had a significant decline in student enrollment out there, and a decline in

student population that will go on for some time. We could easily have taken

teachers out of the system and been justified in doing so. Having said that, I

think the sense of where this government is coming from is that we have gone

through enough in the educational system in terms of the restructuring and the

reform of education that it was time to have that stabilizing year. We have done

that, having consulted all of our stakeholders, and come to the conclusion that

we need to do that to get ourselves back on an even keel, and certainly on a

go-forward basis. Whether or not we will be able to continue to do that is

another story. Is there a need to do that? That is what we will have to look at

as well.

If you look at the amount of money we have invested in

education, there is no comparison in the history of this Province. We have put

$160 million up front in terms of capital cost, capital construction, and we are

very proud about that. We have also, last year, as all of you would know, when

we looked at education in the Province, we put in place a ministerial committee

which is chaired by Dr. Len Williams and Dr. Ron Sparkes. They came up with any

number of recommendations which the government accepted; some of which, of

course, cannot be implemented by this department but would have implications in

other departments. When you look at the recommendations that are the

responsibility of Department of Education, we have gone forward to say that we

agree with the recommendations, and the costs associated with that, of course,

was seen in this budget as well. We are very pleased again that government saw

fit to respond favorably to the recommendations of the Ministerial Panel Report.

As you know, we also have responsibility for the

public library system. We saw fit this year to put another $1 million in for new

books. Again, this goes back to our focus on enhancing literacy in the Province

and doing everything we can to try and ensure that people have access to the

resources that they require to see our level of literacy in the Province

improve, because I think that is important for us if we are going to move

forward as a Province with an educated population and a Province that can take

advantage of employment opportunities.

I won't go on any more because I am sure that a lot of

the information that I have in my head will come out in terms of the questions

that you put to us. Rather than take up time, Mr. Chair, on a

preamble, I will

just turn it back to you.

CHAIR: Thank you very much.

I guess to start the day, Elizabeth, would you like to

call the first subhead?

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 1.1.01.

Sheila.

MS S. OSBORNE: I am going to pass 1.1.01. for now

and go to 1.2.01., Executive Support. Under 01. there is a difference from

$641,000 down to $456,500. What positions have been dropped?

MS FOOTE: You will recall, Sheila, when I was off,

that we had an acting minister. We also put in place a parliamentary assistant

at the time, and a secretarial position to go with that; that was Percy Barrett.

Of course, that is no longer necessary.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay, thank you.

I will move right down to 1.2.02., Administrative

Support. I will not read out the whole paragraph there, but the appropriations

provide for the management, et cetera, within the Departments of Education and

Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education. I am assuming that this $1,295,000

is shared between the two departments.

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MS S. OSBORNE: How proportionately is that? K-12

gets what proportion and Youth and Post-Secondary gets what?

MS FOOTE: Do you want to speak to that, Harold?

MR. PRESS: What that actually means is that our

financial services, our human resource services, and our IT services, are all

shared, so the divisions responsible for those will have a mandate to serve both

departments. In fact, these accounts are actually shown in this single

department, so they actually reside functionally in the Department of Education

but will have responsibility, will have a mandate, to serve both the Department

of Education and the Department of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education.

MS FOOTE: There is no breakdown as such in terms

of what percentage (inaudible).

MR. PRESS: There is no breakdown as such.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Under 1.2.03., Educational Agencies and Advisory

Committees, do you have a list of those committees, or the Advisory Committees

there, or is it an extensive list, too long to go into?

MS FOOTE: Yes, it is the Newfoundland and

Labrador's Women's Institute; the Council of Ministers of Education, of which

the Minister of Education, or both Ministers of Education now would be members;

we have the Canadian Education Association; the Federation of School Councils;

the Newfoundland and Labrador School Boards Association; the Industrial

Relations Officer, which is one position with the School Boards Association; we

have the Provincial Membership in Atlantic Provinces Educational Foundation,

which I commonly refer to as APF, and those are the organizations that we

support.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Over to 1.2.04., Corporate Planning and Research. I

assume that the appropriations there, the HRE and IT, will be shared the same.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay, it is the same.

MS FOOTE: That is right.

MS S. OSBORNE: Under 2.1.01.10. Professional

Development, Substitute Teachers, that has been increased by $2 million. Is

there an explanation for that?

MS FOOTE: We had an increase in term substitutes,

which accounted for $800,000; and we had an additional pay period there of

$500,000.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Under 2.1.02., School Board Operations, utilities,

does that cover the phones, cable and Internet, or does it just cover the heat?

MS FOOTE: Heat and light? Does it cover

everything?

WITNESS: Pretty well, board operation.

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MS S. OSBORNE: But not telephones, cable and the

Internet. Who is responsible for paying the telephone bills and cable for the

school?

MS FOOTE: The department provides every board with

an operating grant. That would come out of their operating grant.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

I will go right on over to 2.1.06., School Supplies.

How many courses have textbooks which are out of print?

MR. PRESS: We have probably half a dozen each year

that might go out of print that we have to go and request a reprinting of that.

We budget, of that amount that you see, about $3 million for replacement of

text. Most of those are in print, and we have a number, maybe about half a

dozen, or eight, that are out of print. In those cases, we have to go back at an

increased cost of maybe 10 per cent or 15 per cent extra for the company to

actually do a reprint of those particular text.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

There are only 10 per cent of the textbooks replaced

every year? Is it 10 per cent?

MS FOOTE: That is the number, yes.

MS S. OSBORNE: Back in December, I do not think

you were in the House then, Minister, I asked a question of Mr. Lloyd Matthews

at the time, and I had a couple of textbooks with me that were absolutely

atrocious. Is anything being done to look into this? This was not just an

anomaly. I think that is persistent. I get a lot of calls from parents whose

textbooks are really in bad shape.

MS FOOTE: In fact, I have asked to have that

looked into, to find out the condition of the textbooks in the schools, to find

out if 10 per cent is adequate. Obviously, there is a significant cost to

replacing textbooks so we have to be responsible from the other end as well.

There are a number of things we can do here.

Certainly, one of the problems again is having some

control over the textbooks and the condition in which they come back. We have to

have the teachers work with us, and the parents work with us, on that front

because of the significant cost of replacing textbooks, but I have asked to have

that reviewed.

MS S. OSBORNE: I know that is really difficult to

police. How do you get it? If the textbooks are destroyed, how do you get it? I

know it is an awful thing to say, but when we bought the textbooks and parents

and children were responsible, they seemed to be kept in better condition. I

would not suggest that you do that now.

MS FOOTE: I will make note of that.

MR. PRESS: May I make one comment?

What we will see, I think, in the next couple of

years, when we saw an extra million dollars plus last year and we will see an

extra million and a half dollars this year for new text to introduce, we will

take more and more pressure off the older text that are in the system and so on.

As this happens, and as we replace more and more with current curriculum,

particularly in language arts and mathematics and science now, which should

almost be fully implemented in the next couple of years, we are going to have

new sort of state-of-the-art text in those areas. It will take some of the

stress off the older textbooks that are currently in the system.

MS S. OSBORNE: I know this in another one that is

extremely difficult to control, but what is the recovery rate of textbooks that

are given, I think, from Grades 9-12, that are issued to people who are

receiving social assistance?

MR. PRESS: The recovery rate - I think it is quite

low, actually.

MS S. OSBORNE: That is another one that is really

difficult to control.

MS FOOTE: What would you recommend there?

MS S. OSBORNE: Don't write it down.

Back over to 2.2.01., Curriculum Development. There

has been an increase in 01., Salaries, of a couple of hundred thousand dollars.

Who is involved there? There is an extra pay period. Is there anything else

involved there?

MS FOOTE: This is the one, I think, where we are

hiring a music consultant for the department. Remember, one of the

recommendations of the Ministerial Panel was to hire a music consultant, music

specialist, and that is what we will be doing there.

MS S. OSBORNE: So does that account for all the

difference? Is that combined with the extra pay period?

MR. PRESS: If I may, what happened is, the added

value is only from the $777,700. What happened was, in this past year we had

some difficulty backfilling some positions. For example, we had the manager of

curriculum development who had gone to Intergovernmental Affairs, and we had a

bit of turnover there. It is really hard, for example, if somebody leaves in

April, to get a teacher to come in for two months. So, we had a little bit of

slippage in salaries. That explains somewhat the drop and then the difference,

the added value, is the music specialist. That is also accounted in

Transportation and Communications on the next line.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Over to 2.2.03. What is the status now of the

construction of the Distance Learning Centre? Is there going to be new

construction? Has a site been designated, or will it be put in an already

existing building?

MS FOOTE: We are not looking at new construction

for this; but, of course, we are still doing an analysis of where this should be

located. We have hired - I don't know if it is called a director?

MR. PRESS: Yes.

MS FOOTE: - who has been hired certainly to get

things moving. In terms of location, we are still having a discussion about

that.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Over to 2.3.01., School Services. There is a big drop

in salaries from 2000-2001 to 2001-2002.

MS FOOTE: Yes. We had funding for temporary

employment that has not been provided for 2001-2002. We had a gentleman there

who was on special assignment for part of the year in 2000-2001.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Will funding be provided?

MS FOOTE: No, what you see there is what we have.

MS S. OSBORNE: What you will get, okay.

Down to 2.3.02., Student Testing and Evaluation, the

difference from 2000-2001 to 2001-2002.

MS FOOTE: Are you looking at salaries?

MS S. OSBORNE: No. Actually, I am looking at

2.3.02.05., Professional Services. I am sorry. Do you have an explanation for

that? Has somebody been hired? Is that for public exams?

MS FOOTE: Yes.

MR. PRESS: That is public exams, CRTs, and the

school level reporting. Some of that might come out of salaries; some of it may,

in fact, be contractual. If it is contractual, it will come out of professional

services rather than salaries.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Who will be conducting the public exams? Has somebody

been hired to conduct that?

MR. PRESS: We have seconded a number of teachers

who will come in. They will not actually do the writing; they will use

committees, comprised of teachers and so on, who will basically generate the

tests. Then, they will be marked through a marking board of teachers after the

school year is over.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

In Professional Development, 2.3.03., Allowances and

Assistance is the same right across the board there. How much of that was

actually used?

MS FOOTE: The figure that is there, the

$3,515,000, is that what you are questioning?

MS S. OSBORNE: Yes.

MS FOOTE: That was used. What we have done is,

Professional Development has been brought together under the one heading,

because in the past it was in different headings all over the place. This will

show you just how much money we actually spend in Professional Development.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Was there loss of time in Professional Development?

Was any Professional Development cancelled?

MR. PRESS: No, there wasn't much, if any, to my

knowledge.

MS S. OSBORNE: Because of the loss of school time?

MR. PRESS: No, but most of what you see here is

substitute time. What that means is that there will be a teacher in place of the

teacher who is off having the Professional Development.

MS S. OSBORNE: There will be no loss of school

time?

MR. PRESS: No, there shouldn't be. There will be

in some instances, but it would not show up here as a line item. What this is

will cover the cost of substitute time for teacher Professional Development and

also for educational leave. For example, if a teacher has paid leave for one

term, then there will be a term substitute who will go in and replace, and that

cost is indicated here under Grants and Subsidies.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Under 2.4.01.04., what supplies are involved there

under that $189,000?

MS FOOTE: We have had an increase in funding

allocation to cover costs associated with new autism related initiatives within

government. A salary unit was provided within Supplies for this initiative, but

the unit has been reallocated to Salaries from 2000-2001 to 2001-2002, so our

salaries go up and our supplies go down.

MS S. OSBORNE: In 2000, there was $215,300

budgeted, but only $147,300 used. Why did that cutback occur?

MR. PRESS: That is a revised figure, and that is

likely to revise up because a lot of this is alternate format materials. These

are special computers that are done for children, alternate books on tape, all

kinds of materials that would be required for learning for students who might

have a visual impairment or hearing impairment and needs some materials in order

to fit into the regular school stream.

A lot of orders will be coming out in the next few

months, so the revised figure is likely to be closer to the budget figure.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay.

Under 3.1.01.10., Grants and Subsidies, what happened

between 2000 and 2001, from $431,000 up to $931,000?

MS FOOTE: This was the $500,000 that was put in

for literacy initiatives.

MS S. OSBORNE: Okay, that is all I have.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Would any of the other Committee members

have any questions?

Minister, you and your officials have done a great job

this morning.

MS FOOTE: Thank you.

CHAIR: I will ask Elizabeth now to call the heads,

inclusive.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01. through 3.2.02. carried.

On motion, Department of Education, total heads,

carried.

CHAIR: Thank you all very much.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.