PRELIHINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. TUESDAY, .HAY 10, 1977

May 10, 1977 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. 1-fR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape No. 2429 I NM- 1 MR. HTJRPHY: Mr. Speaker, if I may ask the indulgence of the House for just a fe't-7 short moments. It is not actually.,I do not think, a thing that is customarily done but as a member for St. John's Centre I would like to ask the indulgence of the House if I could pay tribute,or extend congratulations today to a very fine lady, a name well-knmm in the city of St. John's, Mrs. W, J. Duggan, who celebrates her ninety-first birthday today at present at the Hoyles Home.

And the reason I bring it to the attention of the House, Sir, is the fact that her family down through the years has been one that has contributed a great deal to the culture of this Province,and I refer particularly to her late husband, Billy Duggan, 't-7ho was k..."lr>wn as Uncle Tim for many years and carried on a programm~ The Barn Dance, her son,Dermot Duggan,who is associated with the Department of Tourism and a wonderful artist,and another son,:t-lickey,who is a famous orchestra leader.

And I say, Sir, if I am pardoned~ but I think a person like that, who has not been perhaps one learned in the law or one that has been honoured by any great institution~! think left her mark on this~ not only the city of St. John's but on the Province generally as a wonderful lady with a wonderful family.,and I think the family has made a very great contribution, Sir, to the culture of this Province of ours, · particularly in the first fifty years of this century.

She is ninety-one years old today and is in good health at Hoyles Homes, so I would like to take the opportunity to express t~ her,and I think on behalf of all of us here, Sir, very many wishes for a very happy birthday. MR. SPEAKER: The hon, Leader of the Opposition.

May 10, 1977 Tape No. 2429 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, tt·_e han. gentleman's action as he said is somewhat unusual~but it is nonetheless welcome and we on this side are happy to join in this expression of birthday wishes to Mrs. Duggan and we hope that she has many more years of health and happiness and many more years of receiving congratulations from the House, Sir. PRESE1~ING PETITIONS: ~m.. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: I ask leave, Sir, to present a petition signed by 630 of my constituents, almost all of them residents of the town of St.

Anthony, all of them from that part of the Straits of Belle Isle riding. MR. NEARY: Not the seal fishery? MR. ROBERTS: No, it is not the- for the sake of my friend from LaPoile nrr. Neary), this one is not the seal fishery although there is more action coming on the seal front in the next day or so. Sir, this petition is similar to those which have been presented by a number of others of my colleagues. I believe all have been presented from this side of the House.

It is a petition that has come in response to the request made by the Grand Orange Lodge of this Province, requesting that the sale of alcoholic beverages on Sundays be banned and be restricted, The petition comes to me under the sign and seal of

May 10, 1977, Tape 2430, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: the Grand Orange Lodge of Newfoundland, from Mr. Ernest Warren,the Grand Secretary, and it was taken up by the officers and the members of the Lodge at St. Anthony which is L.O.L. No. 126. The prayer of the petition, Sir, is quite straightforward; it requests that the government take action to ban the sale of alcoholic beverages on Sunday, and I assume, although it has never been spelled out, that this would be both in clubs and taverns on the one hand,and in hotels and restaurants on the other hand.

There may be a distinction made in the eyes of the petitioners, but if so, I do not understand - not that I do not understand it, I am not aware of them having made such a distinction. They want the sale of all alcoholic beverages banned on Sundays in the Province. Sir, the prayer of the petition, I think, is one which we ought to take very seriously.

The prohibition of alcoholic beverages sales will not in itself stop people consuming them and we have had the unfortunate experience in this Province, this country as we then were -and before that we had the experience in the United States - which shows that prohibition in itself does not work. But there may very well be a very strong case for banning the sale of alcoholic beverages on Sunday, one day of the seven.

In the last few years, I suppose the last ten or fifteen years, there has been a great increase in the number of clubs and licensed establishments throughout the Province and I tend to divide these into two types; the ones which sell liquor and wine and spirits, beer and the like with meals, and on the ·other hand, the clubs and taverns and various kinds . of operations which sell liquor and wine and beer and spirits by the glass or by the bottle or by the drink, however these are sold.

May 10, 1977, Tape 2430, Page 2 -- apb HR. ROBERTS: I think these are two different types of operations. There has been a vast increase in both types of operations, Sir, and indeed, I do.not think there is now a part of the Province where alcoholic beverages are.not freely available. Even on the Northern Peninsula,which was a stronghold of Methodism, we now have a government liquor store in St. Anthony that has operated for seven or eight years without any complaint of which I am aware, any complaint from anybody, any citizen or group in the area. \'~e have a number of taverns.

The town of Grand Bank, one of the strongholds of the Methodist Church in this Province, has had a government liquor st-ore and a number of licensed establishments operating for a number of years, and again, as far as I am aware,without any massive public protests. So I think that the ·sale cf alcoholic beverages is accepted by our people. They may not like it but they do accept it. But, Sir, more and more people, and I number myself among these, are becoming very deeply concerned about the effects of the sale of alcoholic beverages.

The price that we are paying is a high one and the price that we are going to pay in the years ahead will be even higher in the terms of the damage to families, of the damage to people's lives. You could cost that out in dollars, what it has cost us in hospitals; it must be thousands, many hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of dollars a year, but even more than that, in terms of human suffering, the cost of alcoholic beverages is a very great one. This is not the place to debate the fact, but I think the government ought to be doing more by means of alcohol education. I do feel that but there

May 10, 1977, Tape 2430, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: will be an opportunity to debate that at another time. But I do think, Sir, this suggestion is one that we ought to take seriously. It would end the sale of beverages in all clubs and I guess in all restaurants too on Sunday, and it would mean that whatever_you could do on a Sunday legally, you could not legally go out and get a beer or get a drink. I think there is something to be said for that, Sir. Certainly there·are 630 of my constituents who support that request. There have been a number of other petitions.

I think my friend from Terra Nova (Mr.Lush) presented one. The gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) presented one, and if I am not mistaken the gentleman for LaPoile(Mr. Neary) had one. MR. NEARY: No, Baie Verte. MR. RIDEOUT: No, for Fogo. MR. ROBERTS: My friend from Fogo (Capt. Winsor) had one. There have been a number of them and I would guess there will be others in the days and weeks ahead. The Orange Lodge, the Grand Lodge of this Province is sponsoring this petition and it is obviously meeting a substantial and a ready response from people around the Province.

I present it, Sir, with the hope that it will be taken very seriously and I would hope that the government within the near future will make a policy statement on this. The minister responsible is the Minister of Finance, as I understand it. He is responsible for the administration of the Liquor Commission. It reports to him. I would hope he would

May 10' 1977 Tape no. 2431 Page 1 - ms Hr. Roberts. speak in this matter. If he does not I would hope that he will shortly be in a position to announce the government's response to the request of these people. I think their request is one with much merit.

I think it must be taken seriously, and I hope, Sir, we will see a response by the government whether they want to restrict the sale of all alcoholic beverages, whether they want to restrict the sale in some kinds of operations or whether they feel that the system which we now have will not be improved by making this change and thus they will not make the change. I present the petition, Sir, and I do so, as I say, with the strong request that the government take it with the seriousness which I think it merits and that we do have a response from the government very shortly. MR. SPEAKER: :t-1R. DOODY: The han.

Minister of Finance. Hr. Speaker, in view of the fact that there have been a number of such petitions,as the hon. member has pointed out, I feel that I should say a word or two in support of the petition There appears to be two different issues, and one of them invariably creeps into the prayer of the petition. It would seem that the petition is one .based on the fact that alcoholic beverages are being sold on Sunday rather than on the fact that there are too many alcoholic beverages being consumed in the Province.

And to that effect I would suggest that probably as more people make their views known on that situation then government will apply itself to developing a policy along the lines which will respect the opinions of those people most directly affected. It may very well be that there may be areas of the Province which may think that the sale of alcoholic beverages on Sunday is a very acceptable thing and something that is a very normal and reasonable sort of an event. We may very well find that parts of the Province may be dry on Sundays and other · parts of the Province may very "·ell be floating in demon rum..

I personally feel that

May 10, 1977 Tape no. 2431 Page 2 - ms ·-·- Mr. Doody. the solution to the alcohol problem - and there certainly is one - in this Province is not the closing of bars or the lifting of licences. MR. ROBERTS: It certainly is not prohibition. MR. DOODY: Prohibition was tried before, and the net result was to ·turn a lot of honest people into crooks and a lot of crooks into mill~onaries, and the resultant - '-... hardship was certainly an example which we should not try to duplicate.

Those people who want a drink, whether the law says that you cannot have a drink on Sunday or not, are going to find it and are going to have it. The regulation of the sale of alcoholic beverages, I think, is the most important factor in that particular area. But,as I say,if there are enough people in the Province and enough areas of the Province who feel that it is wrong to serve alcoholic beverages on Sunday, then certainly this government will look at that problem and develop a policy along these lines. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: The response of my hon. friend, the Minister of Finance, to the prayer of the petition, Sir, is typical of the attitude of this government. They will not lead. If they are pushed into it - this is what the minister is saying · - if they are pushed into it by political pressure, then they may make some changes. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must call the hon. gentleman's attention that ·in my opinion he is commencing to debate the matter, and that he should restrict his comments to the support of the petition, and matters very closely related thereto. The hon. member. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, in supporting the prayer .of the petition, Sir, I do hope that the government will not wait to see if there will be

May 10, 1977 Tape no. 2431 Page 3 - ms Mr. Neary. other petitions and then yield to politi7al pressure~ that the goverrunent will take the lead in this matter~ and conform to the wishes of the prayer of the petition and ban drinking on Sundays. After all, 1-Ir. Spea'"ker, Sunday is supposed to be a day of rest and prayer, .and it is .the one day in the week, Sir, when people should be spending most of their time with their family. Instead of that, Mr. Speaker, as was indicated by the two gentlemen who have spoken on the petition, Sunday, I would say, is the time that Newfoundlanders really swi~g it.

The clubs on Sunday night are bursting at the seams. You have got rock and roll going on all over the Province, heavy rock and light rock, and it seems, Mr. Speaker, that Sunday nights in certain parts of the Province is the night that she really swings.

May 10, 1977 Tape 2432 PK - 1 Mr. Nearx: And it is the one day in the week, Sir, as I said,when people should be spending their leisure time with their families. After all, there is work the next day, Sir. If they are out swinging on Sunday night hm.; are they going to get up and go to work the next day, go to the univ~rsity, go to the vocational schools, go to the college? They probably would be a little muddled the next day~ I ;.;rould think, Hr. Speaker.

So I think it is a good ide& to ban the sale of -booze and beer on Sundays, and anybody who wanted to have a beer on a Sunday could always go down to the retail store on Saturday and pick up his half dozen~bring it home, put it in his fridge, and if he wanted to have a beer or a glass of vline with his dinner on Sunday he can still have that. You knmv, Mr. Speaker, the one field in which we have advanced further than any other in this Province is in the field of the distirbution of booze and beer. My han. friend from Bonavista South (Hr.

Morgan) is looking at me there wondering if I am going to bring up - because all of these petj _tions are sponsored by the LOA, and my hon. friend~by public tender~ bought _an LOA building down in Salvage \vhich the han. gentleman is now converting into a night club or a restaurant of some kind. No doubt there will be the sale of booze. I do not know whether my bon. friend will open it up on Sunda ys or not. MR. HORGAN: It ;.;rill not be open on Sundays, I can tell you that. MR. NEARY: Hell that is good, Sir, I am glad to hear that.

This is the irony of it all, Sir: the LOA is sponsoring the petition and my han. friend is opening up a club in a former LOA building. But the number of signatures to the petition, Mr. Speaker, are increasing. The ~ovement is gathering momentum, and I have no doubt at all, Sir, that there will be other petitions brought into this han. Rouse, and I hope, Mr. Speaker, before too long that the government will start to take the lead in this matter, and not be pushed into making a decision.

May 10, 1977 Tape 2432 PK- 2 MR. SPEA..TCER: The han. Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment. MR . A. HURPh"'Y : Hr. Speaker, I just want to say one or t~,TO words with reference to this matter, and I think ~·7e have got to realize that the whole question of alcohol has become quite a problem, and now we ~re referring particularly,of course,to the Sunday drinking.And I certainly hope, Sir, that this government or any other government does not get back to the fact where we open between the hours of twelve and three, and the hours of five and eight~like it was in~orce for some years and, I think, it was the greatest travesty,if you like, of

an Act that ever was,~vhere so many mothers and what not had the dinner on the table at twelve o'clock or one o'clock, and of course, everybody hung on until the bar closed at three and back again at five. And if I may just localize it a little bit, I remember at that particular time that the l~st Mass at the Basilica was eleven o'clock and you got out just about noon and you had the grateful,just by the door, as soon as she was ended, and it was a steady crack across the road over to the Cottage Garden on Freshwater Road. MR. DOODY: You still got Sunday dinner at home. MR. MURPHY: Yes. And the han.

Leader of the Opposition referred to serving food~ or something 'td th a meal. And I can remember one lady - I did work for the Bre~.;rery for twelve 'years - told me the story that - I think, it was in the Commission of Government days vlhere you could not have a beer unless you had something with it, and she bought a package of crackers, I think, the 1st. of January and she used to send them up every week up to the drycleaners to be cleaned so she could put them on the table again for the next week. So it was a little bit of a joke. But the whole question, Sir, of alcohol is quite a problem.

I heard the hon. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) describe a hangover- I have never had one, at least not from liquor; but I ;1 have had many hangovers,perhaps the Reuse of Assembly gives me more hangovers than any amount of liquor could do. But again it is a very serious matter, Sir, and I think it covers the whole area of drinking,

Hay 10, 1977 Tape 2432 I PK - 3 Mr. Murphy: and it sort of broke my heart when I fought against it,and I do not want to get side-tracked in this, was when the former government passed

an Act lowering the drinking age in 1971, and I thought it was rather a foolish move at that time. And I still think, Sir, that Sunday opening is a Yery good matter for to start off to discuss the whole question of the Alcoholic Liquors Act, Sir. And I am sure - and I do know fo.r a fact that the 1'1inister of Justice is quite concerned and that the thing will be looked into and the whole matter of drinking - and again I >-muld like to say this that we always said it was not the use of alcohol was the problem, it was the abuse of alcohol was the problem,and these are things that we have to look at. 0 0 0 HR.

SPEAKER: The hon. }finister of Finance. HR. DOODY: I have a i'etition, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Do ~.;re have leave to revert to petitions? SOME RON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. DOODY: This petition is being offered to the House on behalf of literally hundreds of residents of Bell Island . P~d the prayer of the petition relates, of course, to the transportation problem bet\.;reen the Island and Portugal Cove, and

May 10, 1977. Tape 2433 RH - 1 MR. DOODY: specifically to the inadequacy of the service that is currently being offered by the company which has the franchise. The particular problem as outlined in the prayer of this petition reads, Sir, as follows, "And

whereas the franchise granted to Newfoundland Transportation Company Limited on December 1, 1955 has given said company exclusive rights to the operation of the ferry service between Portugal Cove and Bell Island 9 and

whereas the service provided by said company has been inadequate since its very inception and has grown continually more inadequate due to increase in traffic offering, and

whereas the inadequacy of service is stifling economic development of Bell Island because of long waiting periods at either terminal, and

whereas the company adamantly refuses to take steps which would improve the service, especially more frequent scheduling and clearing up of all traffic offering, therefore

be it resolved that the hon. House of Assembly instruct Newfoundland Transportation Company Limited to conform to the Ferries Act, 1954 and rules and regulations emanating therefrom and to the terms of conditions of the Board of Commissioners of Public Utili ties of Newfot.mdland, and be it further resclved that Ne~foundland Transportation Company Limited immediately restore the service previously instituted but recently cancelled, namely clearing up all traffic offering which cannot be accommodated during regular scheduled trips because of inadequate capacity." Now, Mr.

Speaker, the company has - this was brought to my attention some little while ago by a number of people - the company had reverted to its old policy of 'the last trip,and that was it', and those cars which were left on either side were literally left there and off would come the service for the evening. We did have_some correspondence with the Board

May 10, 1977. Tape 2433 RH - 2 MR. DOODY: of Public Utilities and with the company. And I understand from the people who asked us to _ pre~ent this petition that this part of the service has improved. I might say that the Catherine is on the run now and while it is a larger boat theoretically in terms of carrying capacity of motor traffic it is still most inadequate. Indeed it is smaller than the Guy. The problem is basically one of the Federal Government's refusal to recognize the fact that this boat is not large enough.

But perhaps more importantly is the fact of the inter-action between provincial and federal government, the company that has the franchise and the ongoing complexity of applying the various rules and regulations from Ottawa from the Province. And the ultimate sufferers are the people on Bell Island who have had a very, very difficult time with their ferry service over the past years. The Federal Government had taken responsibility for it. They would dearly like the Province to take it over. The cost of it is exorbitant.

A recent hearing by the Board of Commissioners of Public i Utilities denied an exorbitant rate increase which was asked for by that company. As a result of this or perhaps because of it or perhaps in spite of it, the people on the Island contend that the service has detoriated even further since that time. So, Sir, I hardly endorse the prayer of this petition. I do feel that the people on the Island have a legitimate right to reasonable transportation. I have no hesitation whatsoever in, as I say, forwarding this petition to this hon. House, presenting it to this hon.

House and forwarding it to the department to which it relates. Thank you, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I would like to stand and support this petition. As a matter of fact I have the greatest sympathy

May 10, 1977. Tape 2433 RH - 3 MR. RIDEOUT: for all those areas in the Province that are serviced by ferries. It is a mo,st frustrating experience I except to have to live on an island and to be serviced by a ferry, particularly when that ferry service is inadequate and carried on at the whims of the operator. And I am a little surprised really ·\·>"i th ·this one because some time ago I stood here in this House and debated this issue of the- I think Bell Island ferry is the only one in the Province that comes under the Public Utilities Board.

The other ferries in the Province are not controlled, are not regulated by anybody, either federal or provincially - and that surprises me that there are some complaints with this particular service that comes under the Public Utilities Board.

1'ay 10, 1 977 Tape -'.434 J}~ - 1 't-l.P .• LUSH: And that causes me to question the kinds of action that I was asking for that all ferries in the Province actually he placed under the Public T!tilities Boaro.

And, Sir, I ,,Tould supg-est that if a company is not follm.,ring out the regulations of the Ferry Act then there is certainlv something 't-Trong with the le~islation or either that the Public Ftilit ies Board is not given sufficient authority to see that the companies are following the Ferries Act or follov!ing the legislation to the Jetter of the law and if that is so then I think ir is incumbent upon the government to see that the legislation has teeth, to see that the Public Utilities Board can ensure that there is an effective service. And, }fr. Speaker, just one point in closing it.

This is the case ~vhere the ferry service that comes under the authority or the control of the Public Utilities Board,hon. members c'lo not have to stretch their imrnagination too much to sort of speculate as to what may be happening in those areas v,There the ferry s;:stems are not under any regulatory bocly, just free to operate at vTill. Anc1 again, ~·r. Speaker, I support this petition because I knn-vT exactly v,That it is like having the ferry system of St. BrendariTs in my o"~ district~and as I said I am surprised that a ferry system that is under the Public PtUities Board is having difficulties.

I know in my own district the same thing happens that the - As a m~tter of fact right now the ferry services are supposed to be on two trips a day,and I checke~ only to find out that it is only doing one.

And there is nobody to come to that co~peny and say you must provide two trips a day~and indeed if there ~re people there the operator "Till not do it unless there is eight or ten cars or something like this. ..A..nd I vmuld urge the government to certainly look into all the ferry syste!l'1B in this Province and to do what has to be done to give the PubJ.ic Utilities Board the proper authority to ensure that the particular, this one, the Be-ll Island one .,is follot-Ting the Ferries Act. And, }~r.

Speaker, I would urge that they extend the legislation to include all ferry systems under ·· the Public Ptilities Board . but certainly

~fay 10, 1977 Tape 2434 JN - 2 }11'. LUSH: give them the authoritv, give them the legislation that will enahle the~ to enforce the regulations of the Ferries Act. ~ .• SPEAT(ER: The hon. merober for LaPoile. J.:TI'"" NEARY: ~-rr. Speaker, I do not know if placing the Bell Island- Portugal Cove ferry service under the Public Utilities Board 1-1as a good thing or a bad thing:. I do not knoH if it was an asset or a liability, Sir. I am inclined to think that it is probably more of a liability than anythin~ else because, }~r.

Speaker, what actually happenec:l,for the benefit of my hon. friend, is that the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities granted a franchise to the Newfoundland Transportation Company to operate a ferry service on the Tickle. As a result of that franchise all competition 1-1as eliminated. 1'~ .• LUSF: }'T. NEARY: They c:lo not compete every year sort of thing? There is no competition at all, Sir.

Competition was eliminated and probably one of the weaknesses in this whole matter is that this co~any has been able to do what it likes over the past years and certainly nobody in this Province has had more to say about that transportation service than !!!yself because, Sir, all my relatives anc:l friends and neighbours over on Bell Island are involved and my former constituents that I represented in this House for fourteen years. yp_, S:HALLWOOD : ~.Jith honour. }fR. NEARY: I hope with a certain degree of honour, Sir. YF. S~~L\.JOOD: And unending usefullness.

And what we have here today in the way of transportation, Sir, is probably due in large measure to some of my efforts in trying to 11R. NEAPY: get that second ferry to take the place of the Kipawo which is nm.:r operating down in the Terra Nova National Park. But, Sir, let me say this, 11r.

Speaker, without getting into the realm of debate, that when the Government of Canada called public tenders~there in 1975~I think it was, called public tenders for the operation of a ferry service beb·Jeen Bell Island and Portugal Cove and the tenders appeared in the rie1..rspaper and submissions were made by more than one company, by more than just

May 10 , 1977 Tape 2434 J!" - 3 ~ .• NEA~Y: the Ne~"foundland Transportation Company, submissions were made t-y tt-•o companies. The la,.;yers for t he Ne~-rfoundland Transportation Company discovered a loophole wherebv they could have the tenders cancelled. Can you i~Pgin e, Mr . Soeaker, the Roard of rommissioners of Public Utilit ies in t his Province dic tating to the big Government of Canada, Uncle Ottawa '"ho i~ pumpinEZ a million dollars into that ferry service in subsidizes a year. The ':

Hay 10, 1977. Tape 2435 RH ·· 1 >fR.NEARY: Province, the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities saying to the Government of Canada, you cannot call public tenders for spending the taxpayers money. MR. DOODY: You had better ship down to St. John's harbour now. It t.;rill be cheaper and you can carry more cars. (Last

part in_audi~l~_. ) MR. NEARY: That is right, Sir. That is absolutely right. The Government of Canada had to cancel. AN RON. ME.HBER: (Inaudible.) MR. NEARY: The franchise is granted by the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities. It is provincial. MR. ROBERTS: It is provincial, under provincial legislation. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? AN RON. 1!-lli:t!-fBER: The Public Utilities Board should not give them a franchise forever, should they? MR. NEARY: Well,they had a franchise forever. They have had it for how long now - they must have had it for twenty-odd years, is it? AN RON. NEJ:-fBER: Twenty-two years.

MR. NEARY: Twenty-two years. And, Hr. Speaker, the Government of Canada, the water transport committee of the Department of Transport called public tenders. They wer~ determined to improve that service once and for all, to provide the people of Bell Island with the best service available by calling public tenders and have submissions made. But the government, the Province, the Board of Commissioners ·of Public Utilities said no, you cannot do that.

So the Government of Canada was forced to deal with the Newfoundland Transportation Company and forced to subsidize the Newfoundland Transportation Company to the tune of $1 million a year >oJhether they liked it or not. What a scandal this >.;rould make across Canada, Sir. The Government of Canada being dictated to by a provincial regulatory body and say, You cannot call public tenders for the spending of the taxpayers' money.

May 1 0 ' 19 77 • Tape 2435 RH - 2 HR. MURPHY: Is it covered by provincial law? HR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, it is covered by provincial law. MR. DOODY: It is not, it is not covered by provincial law. MR. MURPHY: No, no. !-1R. NEA..ltY: It is, Mr. Speaker, covered by provincial law. The Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities are the ones that granted the franchise. So when the people of Bell Island had an opportunity to get their _service improved,to get the service they wanted,they were barred by this franchise that was granted back in the early 1950's And, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question'ltoo.

In two provincial elections in this Province, the party that is now in power went around the Province campaigning on the grounds that if they were elected that they would immediately look into the possibility of making communities that were serviced by ferries a part of the Trans­ Canada Hight>1ay system, extend the high~o1ay system and make it free. That statement was made on Bell Island in St. Pat's Theatre prior to the 1972 election by none other than the hon. Premier of this Province. HR. ROBERTS: Another unkept promise. MR. NEARY: and then made subsequently in the follm,ring election. AN HON.

NEHBER: Can you prove that? MR.NEARY: Yes, Sir. Sir, I had my spies in the hall that night. And then it ~.,ras published in the newspaper., 11R. DOODY: Did not have a meeting (inaudible.) when I ran there was not a meeting. HR. NEARY: In St. Pat's Theatre, Sir, there was a meeting held on behalf of the Tory Party, they had a political rally in St. Pat's Theatre. I do not know - my hon. friend might remember that that was the night that they started to tear the - no, -it was the hockey player who ran at that, the hockey player who ran - AN RON. -ME!-ffiER: (Inaudible.)

May 10, 1977. Tape 2435 RH - 3 MR. NEARY: That is right, the hockey player. MR. DOODY: I made no promises. HR. NEARY: The gentleman who got all . the rural development loans and the piece of farm equipment and has not done any farming yet. But, Hr. Speaker, I would like to know what has happened to that promise. And then what about the causeway that they are now talking about. The minister did not tell us anything about the study that is being done. Put the study on the table of the House so we can all have a look at it. Mr.

Speaker, I could go on for hours talking about the problems involved in that ferry service, Sir. But I only have limited time, Your Honour. But maybe in a later debate I may have something to say about it. But I have no hesitation at all, Sir, in supporting the prayer of the petition. NIL SPEAKER: Before recognizing the han. minister, I would draw the attention of members and welcome to the House of Assembly on their behalf thirty-five grade eight students from the central high school of St. Bride's. They are accompanied by two teachers, Mrs. Florence Coffey and Hiss Patricia Nash.

I know all han. members join me in welcoming these students and their teachers. SOME RON. ME1-1BERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. lfinister of Transportation. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I support the petition tabled by my colleague with regards to the need for improved transportation services to the Island community of Bell Island. First of all, I would like to clarify a misunderstanding put forward _to the House by the hon. gentleman from Terra Nova(Mr. Rideout) because there are regulatory authorities over the ferry services in the Province.

And if any citizen or groups of citizens are dissatisfied \vith the ferry services throughout the Prov!Lnce with regards to the places like - other than

Yay 10, 1977 Tape 2436 JY - 1 1~R. MORGAN : Bell Island - like for · example St. Brendan's and Greer:spond and FOfO an~ these places that the ere, the Canadian Transportation Commission :Ln 0.t ta~va, the v.ra.ter transport- division of that Commission is strictly responsible for the level of senrice provicec" by these ferry services based on the fact that these ferry services are subsidize(! by the }finistry of Transport, and they are subsidized by the Ministry of Transport upon recommendations put forward by the CTC and the - HR. ROBERTS: I-'fP.. :~-~ORGAN: Jl~, . SPEAKEP: ~-· MORGAN: MR.

SPEA.cT(FP: As all (Inaucible). Mr. Speaker, i-f I could speak without being interrupted. The hon. member wishes to speak uninterrupted - So, P.r. Speaker, the - Excuse me, please! The han. gentleman ~·!ished me to rule in his favour. The han. gentleman 1vishes to continue his speech 1..r i thou~ interruption. ~'R. "'1'0RGA'!IJ: Mr.

Speaker, so that is a very serious misunderstanding put fo!\-rard to the House of Assembly c:md to the media of the Province because all ferry services do h~ve some regulatory authority over them governing the level of service, and over there on Bell Island which was up until a fe\v years ago all of them are now under the control of the CTC in Ottawa. They can dictate the level of service. If an operator is not providing the level of service satisfactory to the residents concerned,they can fake the case to the ere and the.

CTC shoula,in my view,and it has been made knov.~ to them on a nt~ber of occasions in the past year, hold public hearings and give the people a chance to put fon..rard their views of how the service can be improved.

Nm.,; with regards to Bell Island the situation there is rather complicate(! because of the fact the Federal Government subsidizes the operation and just recently, in fact within the past year~the CTC was told, and I r-epeat,was told, they made no decision themselves yet they ~,rere subsidizing the operation, they '"ere tolrl by the Federal Cabinet, a · unilateral decision ~!as made by the Federal Cabinet without consultation

:May 10, 1977 Tape 2436 J}f - 2 Hith this Province.,that we are not !?:oing to increase the subsidizes of the ferry services in the Province including Bell Island. And because of that of course the operator had no choice but to make an application for an increase in fares. '·!hen the application ~.ras made~ it vras decided that the Provincial Pegulatory AuthorHy which is delegated authority hy the Federal GovernT!lent to deal with the application. They - . - dealt ~dth the application and of course we sa't.T the results. They did not ~et the increase they ~-·anted.

But this all came about because the Federal Cabinet unilaterally decided, v.rithout consultation ~vith the operators, without consultation vdth th_e Province, without consultation ~.;r:i.th the Public Vtilites Board of Commissioners in the Province, they decided they were to ':J in other vmrds, hold a line on the subsic!izes.

Therefore the petitioners are now of the opinion,according to a petition table~ by my colleague today in the House, that they are of the opinion that ·because of the r1ecision T'lade by the Board of Public t'tilities not to grant an increase in their fares, because of the hold the line on the subsidizes that the service is now deteriorating to the Island and thi~ is unfortunate, very unfortunate.

In fact the ferry service throu!?hout the "Province only by the skin of our teeth, and I repeat,only by that, v.rhen "'•i thin a matter of t~·!O days before the end of Harch, 197 7, the Federal Government was going to pull off all the ferry services in the Province, all seven total, pull them off. I mean pull there off hy saying ~·Ye are not going to subsiclize any more in Newfoundland, do the same to us as they did in B.C.

But because of our strong protests and the meetings in Ot ta~:-:a back and forth, because of that the Federal Cabinet decided to change their decision and to carry on the subsidizes for at least, and I repeat, for at least one more year. And that is the conditions were are novr operating under. But it is their attitude and their policy to drop the subsidizes on all ferry services in the Province and have the Province take over the operations. So, }fr. Speaker, in closing my remarks on the petition I again like to indicate that this department is willing to meet w:!.th the

~~ay 10, 1977 Tape 2436 j}( - 3 ~f.P . NORGAN: operator and with the citizens of the area or their coi!Ul'i ttee, I t hink they call themselves the Courputers - 1-!R • NEARY: The ColllTI'lU ters • YR. Jvl(l'RGAN: Yes, Mr. Yic'Y.erson and those - I am getting mixed up in Vickers and commuters - Association or gr oup on the Islanc or in fact any other o rganize~ Rroup rep resenting these petitioners,meet with them and the operators and if necessary the CTC and the Public Board of Utilities and try to find Hays and means of improving the service to the Islan d .

And of course ,,.,i t h regards to the rest of t.~e P rovince we \vill continue our pressures in Ottawa to maintain these services and t o impro\re them in the future.

May 10, 1977. Tape 2437 RH - 1 PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister on presenting reports by standing and special committees. k~ HON. MEMBER: By leave. MR. ROUSSEAU: By leave. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed. HR-. ROUSSEAU: Thank you very much. I would like to table the 1976 annual report of the ~.Jorlanen 1 s Compensation Board. SOME HON. 11EMBERS: Hear, hear! ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Fisheries. HON. W. CARTER: Hr. Speaker, I want to supply an answer to a question put to me some time ago by the hon.

Leader of the Opposition concerning the location of the herring processing plant in Southern Labrador. HR. ROBERTS: Plants. HR. CARTER: Plant, · plant. ~tr. Speaker, a decision has been made on the basis of a meeting held by the officials in the Department of Fisheries and the Canadian Saltfish Corporation and others to at least for this year, to have the plant operated at L 1 Anse-au-Clair. There vlas representation made to the department to have it operating at L 1 Anse-au-Loup I think it was.

But the fishermen 1 s committee met, fish~rmen from I believe Red Bay down to L 1 Anse-au-Clair at which time a vote vJas taken. And it was all but unanimous, that certainly for this year that the plant should be operating at L 1 Anse-au-Clair. Indeed there were fifty people in attendance, fifty fishermen representing pretty well all of the communities that I have mentioned. There are at least between the areas I have mentioned, and all but one but the persons in attendance supported the proposition that the plant, at least for this year., should be located in L 1 Anse-au-Clair. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. NR. ROBERTS : In the absence of most of the ministers who count. Sir. it is difficult to ask a question. Could I begin by asking - I presume the Minister of Mines and Energy is the acting House Leader - where is

May / 10' 1977. Tape 2437 RH - 2 HR. ROBERTS: the Premier, the Hinister of Justice, the Minister of Finance, Sir, three men of 1.-hom we 't-7ish to ask questio_ns? Sir,. the senior ministers, whe~e are they? There is the Minister of Finance. Where are the J other two, Sir? AN HON. MEMBER: ·Hr, Speaker - l'ffi.. ROBERTS: No, hold on now. Answer the question now. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the bon. the Premier and the bon. Minister of Justice have commitments early this morning and should be in the House very shortly. MR.

ROBERTS; They are the people who forced the House to meet at ten in the morning, Mr. Speaker. They might do us the courtesy to be here. }lR. PECKFORD: A point of order, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. PECKFORD: A point of order. That comment by the bon. Leader of the Opposition is completely out of.order. This is the Oral Question period and not a time for debate. MR. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Sir.

Maybe I am out of order,but so is the action by the Premier and the Minister .of Justice in forcing this House to meet at ten after having been here at eleven and then ignoring it and treating it with contempt by not being here to answer questions, Sir. Now may I ask a question to the Uinister of Finance, who has been very faithful in his attendance? MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! On the specific point of order brought up by the han. Minister of Mines and Energy. He was in fact correct and the h?n· Leader of the Opposition's remarks w~re of the nature of debate. }lR.

ROBERTS: A question for the Minister of Finance~1-1ho has done us the courtesy, who has done the courtesy to appear in the House as he always does,and we are greatful to him and I wish to acknowledge his courtesy as opposed to the contempt shown by his colleagues including the Hinister

May 10, 1977. Tape 2437 RH - 3 }ffi.. ROBERTS: of Hines and Energy. Mr. Speaker, if I may ask - MR. MORGAN: HR. SPEAKER: :MR. HORGAN: On a point of order, Mr. _Speaker. A point of order. Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. The bon. Leader of the Opposition has ·an two occasions noH indicated that my colleague tl}_e ho_n . __ Minister of Jus ~ice and our Premier is showing contempt for the House of Assembly. Hr. Speaker, the bon. Minister of Mines and Energy has clearly indicated to the House of Assembly that the bon. the Premier and the bon.

Hinister of Justice are presently on commitments by holding meetings outside of the House of Assembly. And therefore they are not holding this House in com tempt. HR. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. First of all, let it be established the Premier is in the building .because he and I came in together at nine o'clock. Secondly, Sir, I have indicated that it is contemptuous of a member not to attend the service of the Rouse.

And if I can find the appropriate standing orders, Sir, there is a standing order which requires members to attend the service of the House of Assembly unless they are otherwise excused. And I would submit that neither the Premier or the Minister of Justice has been excused or has asked to be excused. If they

schedule commitments, Sir, that take them away from the House that is contemptuous~ in my opinion, Sir·; in my submission. It is the }linister of Justice and the Premier who have insisted the House meet at ten o'clock in the morning. He have accommodated them. Hy colleagues are here. We have a limited time for questions 1 and we are give~ the bush league ministers, Sir • With the exception of the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Fisheries, we are not given any of the ministers of whom important questions should be asked.

How are we to ask them? · All '"e are ' told is, "Oh, notice is taken," and then nothing happens, Sir . . I think it is contemptuous of the Hinister of Justice and the Premier not to be here. I do not have the appropriate Standing Order 1 but there I

}fay 10, 1977 Tape 2438 J1vf - 1 MP. ROBERTS : is a standing order in our standing rules, Sir, that says all members must atteno the service of the House unless they are excused. I do not have the exact wording and the index is so appallingly bad in our standing orcers.,but I am sure--Your Honour is familiar with it ano I Hould submit, Sir, that these ministers have shown contempt by not being present for Ques.tic:_n _P~riod. There are only two, four, six, eight, less than half the Cabinet, Sir, are here for Question Period today, eight out of the sixteen or seventeen ~~inisters of the Crm,Tll.

That is not good enough~ Sir. :!'-fP_, PECKFOP.D: To that point of order, r~r. Speaker. Those comments by the Leader of the Opposition are small almost beyond words to describe~ to try to inoicate that ministers are not turning up and are being contemptuous of the Rouse. Every member, members on the opposite side, all the members of the Opposition are not present right now in this hon. House. Some of them just came back to the House after being away for several days ~and so on it goes.

Let it be recorded that it '"as this administration that has put in the standing orders a Question --- -~ Pericd that Liberal policy ~ictated would not be. 11R. SPEAKER: Order~please! The specific standing order~but as I recall the point of order was raised to the effect that the proper procedure for asking questions was not being follm,Ted. The appropriate Standing Order? 80 ~ "Every member is bound to attenc the service of the House unless leave of absence has been given him.'' The implementation of that, or '"hat is to be done if that is not observed is not self-evident.

I '"ould think~,.,rithout ruling on_it, but I would think that it .._Tould probal:ly be a matter of a substantive motion which the House woulc decide. However if I understand the specific point of order,aii.d these matters arose up in a peripheral manner.,the specific point of order wlth respect: to the. Question Period;oi woulc quote N.ay, page 327, which is very close to our Standing Order 3l,"that questions which seek an expression of opinion or which contain arguments, unnecessary e_pithets, offensive expression, a~gumentative should net be included in questions."

Hay 10, 1977 Tape 2438 .n- ~ - 2 '!--!J' • SPEAKE P : So the substantive point of order is that questions shC'Iuld seek information,and ans"~:.;rers if given should give it \vithout requirinP. or entailing debate. The bon. Leader of the Opposition. 1~. R0BEP_TS : The question - ~fJL NEAPY: I vmuld like to move, Mr. Speaker, that the han. Premier be impeached for not attending these sittings of the House,if that is in or.der. I understood Your Honour stated that a substantive motion could be. made at this particular time. MR.

SPEAKF.R: Unless I heRrd argument to the contrary I am not a"~;.;rare of a motion to impeach - ~- . ROBE1'TS : C~nsure, censure~ 1''1'.. SPEAY..EP: I could not accept that motion. I have never heard of one to impeach a member. ""~. ROBERTS: Sir," the Earl of Stafford was impeached and lost his head 1:-'r. Speaker, may I - Although I must say my sympathies are t,:rith the gentlei!l.an from LaPoile. J-~r. Speaker, hereUts the Premier. I shall wait. Fe is coming nov.r. The Premier is just in time, we are beginning Question Period. S. m~ HON. }"E~EP. S: Hear, hear! 1-':R. P.OBEPTS: l'~r.

Speaker, my auestion is for the Premier. It is a very important subject, Sir. Caul~ he tell us what additional steps the gC~vernment are taking to cope with the unemployment situation that has been revealed by the latest figures from Statistics Canada which show that officially, anc1 I think the unofficial figures are at least u..-rj_ce these, that nineteen point two per cent of the work force in this Province were unemployed durni'lg =:the month of March, the highest v7e .· have ever achieved during our entire history?

Hhat extra measures are the government planning to put into effect to cope with this? l'~L SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PP.F.MIER ~OORES: He all realize, Mr. Speaker, that _the unemployment problem is serious. He also realize that it is serious not just here but across Canada~but extremely serious here. He are the first to admit

May 10, 1977 Tape 2438 JM - 3 PP~ER ¥00RES: that. I would also say, Sir, that together .... -ri.th the Federal C~vernment we have been working on priorities to make work to try to bring short-term alleviation to the :fore. in this regard. But it is a difficult problem but we are doing everything we can to compat it. }'!R . l>OBERTS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. M1'. . SPEA..XER: A supplementary. I thank the Premier for the information,such as it vJas, in his answer. r~uld he tell us when we can expect some definite announcements?

We have been h~aring for some years now this talk about priorities and planning underway. Hhen will He get some announcetnents? The people are out of work now. 1-fR . SP E.~T<.EP : The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOOP~S: Yes, I realize that, Mr. Speaker. There will be more people out of work in netober but the fact is, SiT, that we will do it as quickly as possible. ~.f!'. . ROBF.P.TS : A furth~r supplementary. ~ . SPEAKER: 'MR. ROBERTS: A further supplementary. ~!r.

SpealceT, can the Premier tell us lvhat forecast his administration has made with respect to unemployment in the Province this yeaT? no they expect it to rise beyond the present figures and if so, by how much?

Hay 10, ~977. Tape 2439 RH - 1 }ffi. SPEAKER: The bon. Premier. PREMIER HOORES: The best that l-7e can calculate - and this is in conjunction once again with the federal people who have the mechanism to do this probably as well as we do or better, Mr. Speaker -is that unemployment this year will average approximately the same as it did last year. MR. ROBERTS: Well~we are well behind already. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. member for LaPoile. HR.

NEARY: The Board of Trade are presenting their annual brief to the government I believe today or tomorrm.;r, Would the bon. the Premier reverse the tables and ask the President of the Board of Trade what action the membership of the board are going to take in the private sector to deal with the problems of the economy of this Province,especially unemployment among young people? Will the Premier try to find out from the President of the Board of Trade if they have any plans within their membership to give young people the initial experience that they need in order to find jobs? }ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier.

PREHIER MOORES: I will certainly take that under consideration, }1r. Speaker. }ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: ~x. Speaker, a question for the Premier on a different topic. We will be back_to unemployment. But could the Premier tell us, and this is something I think under active discussion in a number of other provinces now, Hanitoba and Prince Edward Island are two~ c6uld he tell us whether the administration a~e giving active consideration to the question of raising the legal age at which liquor may be consumed in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. MR. MOORES: No, Mr.

Speaker, not at this time. MR. ROBERTS: 'Ank1 told us that you were. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile.

May 10' 1977. Tape 2439 RH - 2 ·-- MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy. Sir, would the minister tell the House if Newfoundland Hydro Corporation is providing a bus service between the Philip Building here and Elizabether Avenue and the Centrec Building out in Donovans Industrial Park, if the Newfoundland Hydro Corporation provides a bus service for the employees to bring them out in the morning ·and bring them back in the evening? l1R. ROBERTS : Yes, they have a free bus service. That is why our rates are going up. HR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Hines and Energy. }ffi.

PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I will check the information out for the bon. member and have an answer for him next week. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, then the han. gentleman for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR.NEARY: Would the minister also find out the name of the people from whom the bus is chartered and the amount. MR. ROBERTS: And was it done on tenders? l1R. NEARY: -And was it done on public tenders, and the amount of the charge? MR. ROBERTS: How much are they charging the,people \ilho are,·using it~ MR. PECKFORD: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I will check out all those matters that are· relevant as wentioned by the hon. member for LaPoile. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Bellevue. MR. W. CALLAN: In the absence of the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture,perhaps the Premier could tell the House why is it that applications for Crown land in this Province take so long to be processed? ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOOP£S: I will take notice of the question, Mr. Speaker. }~. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. }1R. SPEAKER: A supplementary.

Ymy 10, 19 77. Tape 2439 RH - 3 MR. CALLAN: A supplementary. Mr. Speaker~ in the statistics that we got there, the budget and so on, there is one civil servant for every nineteen people in this Province. Mr. Speaker, down in the Cro~vn lands, I have been told by the officials down there, that they are short on secretarial staff. And this is one of the reasons why the processing - of applications takes so long. Now my second q11estion . is this: . Hr. Speaker, I wonder if it is necessary for the process to take so long?

For example, in the Department of Health, to get the health inspector in Harbour Grace to inspect a piece of land at Norman's Cove, you know, the application has to go to the centre office here in St. John's,and then to be redistributed. Arid so far a letter that was sent out to Harbour Grace on the twentieth of April has not arrived there. Hhy the bureaucracy? AN RON. }ffiMBER: (Inaudible.) MR. SUfMONS: A supplementary, }1r. Speaker. }ffi. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. member for a question .but not a supplementary, but for a question. MR. SIMMONS: Oh, I see.

Well I would like to ask the Premier a question in the continuing absence of the Ninister of Forestry. A couple of years ago, one of the former Ministers of Forestry announced that there was going to be re-organization of Crown lands and as a result the long delays in getting applications processed would be reduced from several months down to one to two -months. I believe it is the present Minister of Health who announced that, that it would be brought up to date by June of 1976. And I am wondering ·now,and my question to the Premier is what went wrong? Why has this not been done?

Was the transfer to the new building a factor or more importantly when can we expect it to be brought up to date?. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: First of all,

Yay 10, 1977 Tape 2440 PPP·.fiE'P YCIOPES: Hr. Speaker, I think, I am not absolutely sure of this figure but I think we have doubled the staff in rrown Lands. I think it has been speede~ up. I think Crown Lands has been one of the real problem areas for a lonp: vJhile.,and there were outstanding applications for as long as five years back at one stage. It was just unbelieveable. Steps have been taken, Sir, to decentralize the process where they do not have to refer to St. John's. I ~now there are offices in Grand Falls and Corner Brook - AN RON • YE:"~F.R : Gander. J~1 - 1 PPEY'IER }~C'OPES : it will r:o - HP.

POBEP_TS : Gander rather, Corner Brook novJ and hopefully in time Goose Bay but PPP-aEP 1-~00'R.ES: Hell in Gander and Corner Brook they make decisions on their ovm,as I understand it. HP. PDBEP.TS : There is one in Goose Bay that sends them back from t'Ance Au Cla~r to Goose Bay to Corner Brook to St. John'~. PHEYIEP }~00k'_ES: Either '"ay, }1r. Speaker, everything possible is be in~ done in the Crovm Lands division.

It is a <1ifficult area to administer hut there is room for improvement a~d it is . of concern to us, but I rather the ~inister were . here because I know he has some specific plans which he could give to the House. ~.fP. • SPEAK.F.'P : !'"F.. L'E!SH: of Health. T~e hon. member for Terra Nova. Yr. Speaker, I want to ask a question to the Yinister SOME RON. ME}ffiEP.S: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: I wonder if the minister can inform the House as to what action the government plans to take to regulate and control ambulance services in the Province? 1'"1'.. SPEAKER : }"P_. CQLLINS: The bon. Hinister of Health. Mr.

Speaker, I believe I indicated to the hon. member during the debate on the estimates, I am not sure i-f I did or not, but at any rate ~Te do realize that the grea.t number of ambulances vJhich are in

May 10, 1977 Tape 2440 JM - 2 V~. COLLINS: place in the Province novr should be regulated. He are very proud, ~-{r. Speaker, of the ambulance service ,,Tbich we provide, . the road ambulance. The time has come I think ~,Then '"e must look Rt ~..rays and means of offering training to the ~rivers. A great number of the drivers have allready b.een trained. At any rate,the whole matter of the subject of discussion this past two or three weeks with the Public Utilities Board in terms of regulations and also with other interested agencies to try and bring about a better operat]on. As I say, 1-~r.

Speaker, ,,1e are very proud of the ambulance service but it needs some refinemer.ts. :!''R. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Fogo. CAPTAIN "ITNSOR: Yr. Speaker, a question to the bon. the Premier. Can the Premier tell the House whether he has met privately with Premier Levesque of Quebec to discuss ~ammon problems pertaining to Newfoundland? }"'P • SPEAK.E:P : PREMIER :HOOPES : ~r. Speaker. CAPTAIN HINSOP: }"'P.. SPEAKE'P._: CAPTAIN WINSOR: The bon. Premier. No, I have not met privately with Premier Levesque, A supplementary, 1-!r. Speaker. A supplementary.

Is the Premier contemplating such a meeting within the foreseeable future? . MR. SPFAKER : PRE¥.1ER Y.OOPES : }ffi.. SPEAKEP. : The bon. Premier • Not at the present time, 1-f.r. Speaker, no. The han. member for LaPoile follm.1ed by the bon. gentleman for BurReo-Bay D'Espoir. }ffi. NEARY: ¥r. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the hon. Premier in connection with the North side of the Argentia Naval Station. Hould the Premier tell the House whether negotiations have been finalized yet for the Province to take over the buildings and the property on the Northside of the Argentia Naval Station? !-ffi..

SPEAKEP.: The bon. Premier. PREHIER MOORES : Yr. Speaker, in conjunction with my colleague from

I ~lay 10, 1977 Tape 2440 JH - 3 Placentia i"e have had ongoinf! discussions with the Federal Government for quite some time on this. l~en in Otta'tva I met Pith the American Ambassador there and He discussed it further as well as with Hr. Jamieson, the secretary of State,and tme would think that that should be finalized in the earJy immediate future. As a matter of fact ,,.e plan one further trip to Ottawa to deal with the principals concernec'! to get everything put into place but I think it is gettin .g at that stage nm.•. !'liP • NEARY : A supplementary question, Sir. "!-.'!F..

SPE.AKEr.: A supplementary. :l'fP. NEARY: 1•Jould the Premier indicate, just gjve us an approximate time v.rhen the ne~otiations l>1ill be finalized? NR. SPEJ...K.ER: The bon. Premier. PP.E~EP }1"00P.ES :- It depends when I can get permission to leave the Rouse, ~r. Speaker. }'F.. NEARY: A suprlementary question, ~1r. Speaker. JlfP • SPEAKER: A supplementary. lT. NEARY: Pould the hon. t.he Premier tell the House if DP.EE has a plan rea~y to implement on the North sic'!e of the Argentia Naval Station if and ~,•hen the property is turned over to zthe Province? 1'-IF.. ~PEAKER: The bon. Premier.

P:RElnEP MOOP..ES: Partially, ~'r. Speaker. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. l'~R. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. }ffi.. NEARY: Would the ~'inister of Fisheries tell the House if anything has been done about the excellent refrigeration facilities at Argentia? The minister -vms talking about some time ago about using _it for storirg .·fish for a distribution centre and so forth. Has anything been done about these facilities? The bon. ¥inister of Fisheries. "MR. W. CARTER: }~r. Speaker, v!e have had an engineering firm take a look

I Tape 2440 JY .. / 4 HP.. ~~r. CARTER: at the buildings an~ just find out to advise government as to if they can be rehabilitated, tf the cold storage capabilities there could be rehabilitate0.. That report has

l-fu.y 10,1977 Tape 2441 (Morning) AH-1 }ffi. W.CARTER: not being completed yet. MR. SPEAKER: Hon.member for Burgee-Bay D'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: "ttr. Speaker, a questio~ for my friend the Minister of Education. He indicated earlier that ·there would be a start made on : the Polytechnical this year, can he now indicate whether the design of the building or buildings is completed and when tenders w-ill be- -called on · the new Polytechnical? MR. SPEAKER: The hen Minister . of Education. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker,there is an allocation in the budget for a start this year.

I indicated when we were presenting the bill that we ~.,.auld not be able to make any definitive decision until we had our negotiations with DREE people. That has been in process and progress now and I cannot be definite about whether it will start in the next month or two but we are hopeful something will be got going this year. MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: 1'-'ffi.. SIMMONS: A supplementary. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, ~ ... hen the minister says there is noney in t?.e budget -or a vote in the budget for a start~does he mean a design start or is he talking of an actual start in construction this ;•ear? MR.

SPEAKER: The "tfinister of Education. MR. HOPSE: Mr. Speaker, the design has been completed and most of the preliminary plans have been drawn up. He have comtemplated a physical start this year~but as I say we cannot be definitive about it until we see what imput we are going to ,get from DP~E people& They may want some changes and that may necessitate further design or a different design but we hope it would not be much different from what we have planned now. MR. STMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: A supplem~ntary. A supplementary. Mr.

Speaker, the minister's references to DREE, are we to understand fro5 that that the negotiations with DREE

May 10,1977 Tape 2441 (Morning) AH-2 HR. SIMMONS: have to do with a·final determination of what the facility vrill include or is it negotiation to do with possible financial involvement? Perhaps I could put it another way; does the government at this time have a firm commitment from DREE as to the nature of its involvement in the project or is the negotiation aimed at getting such a commitment? MR.

HOUSE: It is aimed at getting some imput into the actual construction costs and of course when we presented our package - artd that was the whole idea of getting the bill through early enough before we presented the package-we sent along definite plans and obviously if they are going to have an imput they may '-1ant some changes,so this is in the process of negotiations nm·7 and I cannot comment any further on it. MR. SIMl10NS: A supplementary. MR.. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. member for Burgee-Bay D'Espoir~ then the hon member fo~ St. G~orges. ! MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, one is tempted to say it sounds like the same old trick where they announce and then go looking for money after. Mr. Speaker, my supplementary~· is the minister indicating or is he prepared to indicate that whether or not the project gets underway this year will depend on whether or not funds are receivable from DREE? MR. HOUSE: The han minister. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, when we are negotiationg for so~ething of that nature I think it would be wrong and perhaps a.little premature for me to indicate what we are going to do if they do - -not come across .

So "''\ole would have to await their .decision before I can make a statement to that affect. MR. SH1MONS: But it Will not go ahead if you do not get the money from DREE. }lR. SPEAKER: Hon.member for St. Georges. MRS MaciSAAC: This if for the Premier. With respect to the severance . pay announced for the employees of Labrador Linerboardr I wonaer if the Premier could tell us how many people will be involved and how many will qualify for the severance pay?

May 10,1 977 Tape 2441 (Morning) AH-3 PREUIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, no I cannot at: this time. iYha t: I can do for the hon. member for St. Georges is as soon as the detail has been worked aut to let her know. My understan .ding en it is that any person who is there at the time of completion gets a certain amount.,and any person who leaves before that gets a certain amount and so on. But what I can do is get the Minister of Manpower-and the 't'finister of Finance who · have been involved to fully advise the hon.member for St. Georges. MRS MaciSAAC: A supplementary,Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: A supplementary.

May 10, 1977 Tape No. 2442 NM- 1 MRS. MACISAAC: I wonder if the Premier would attempt to find out what classes of people would qualify ~ --~hat _ SY.P ~ of jobs? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ·A supplementary, the hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Premier could exPlain why the fifty-odd workers at the Come By Chance Refinery have not yet received their severance pay? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PRE:l'-UER MOOORES: If the hon. member could give us a list, Mr. Speaker.

He is very late in doing so if he knew about it before now. 'MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question for the Mlnister of MUnicipal Affairs and Housing, Sir. There are three water and sewer projects now left high and dry, one in Pouch Cove, one in Torbay and one in Placentia where the' bond holders have be~n called in because of lack of performance or bankruptcy. In the case of the Placentia \vater and sewer system. that so far has cost over $1.5 million and no houses are hooked up, will the minister indicate to the House when work is going to be resumed on this project? MR.

SPEAKER: MR. DINN: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult to ·answer that question. The funds have been put in place in Placentia. All the funds,as I understand it9 have been-spent. -There are no services provided to the people and,as I understand it, I do not know if it is right now or not, but as I understand it the lawyer is preparing to, I think it is Mr. P.J. Lewis, is preparing to serve writs .on the contractor and I believe the consultant. MR. NEARY: }1R., SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. A supplementary.

May 10' 1977 Tape No. 2442 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: After three years, Sir, there has not been one house connected in Placentia. Would the minister tell the House why it is so difficult and why it · takes so long to get the bond holders to perform after a company has ~ither withdrawn, been kicked out because of lack of performance,or gone into bankruptcy? Why does it take so long to call on the bond holders ro finish the work? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. Dil\TN: Mr.

Speaker, I have no idea of why it takes so long, I do kn~' t~at they intend in some cases to contest the calling of the bond and whether they are obligated to perform or not and they want it settled by the courts and to this point in time, in the case of Placentia,there has been no writs issued on either the bonding company, the contractor, or the consultane. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile, a supplementary. MR. NEARY: Why steps has the minister taken to protect the public treasury in cases like this?

Does the minister's department play any role in providing assistance to the municipalities who become involved in long legal battles in the courts over these matter. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN-: Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult, as the hon. member well knows, to interfere into what happens between - a municipalit~ and a contractor or a bonding company or someone else,for an outside , ~gent - to -interfere. MR. NEARY: I But it is public money. It is the government - that is putting up the money. MR. DI1TN: The money in the case of Placentia, Mr.

Speaker, as I have already indicated to the bon. member, is spent. MR. NEARY: No,it is not. MR. DINN: No services installed. MR. NEARY: No, the work has not been completed.

May 10, 1977 Tape No. 2442 NM- 3 ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: What are we on, Mr. Speaker? MR.. SPEAKER: No order has been called yet. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I move the House,adjourn, Sir, until three o'clock this afternoon. Mr..PECKFORU: Motion -six; ==========---- MR. SPEAKER: That is the orders is it? HR. MCNEIL: Mr. Speaker, before I get - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I cannot put the hon. gentleman's motion. there is no seconder,and subsequently another motion has been called which is motion six. Before recognizing the hon. member for Stephenville (Mr.

McNeil),! will point out that a matter was raised earlier by the hon. member for LaPoile_ (Mr. Neary). He made a motion which I did not accept, one of impeachment. At the time I was unable to cit~ an authority, L \ I.did not v.Jish to ajourn the House.,but I have identified an authority which I should give in citation as to my ruling.

May, page 66, "Impeachment by the Commons for high crimes and misdemeanors beyond the reach of the law, for which no authority in the state will prosecute,might still be regarded as an ultimate safeguard of public liberty though ·. it has not bee employed since the beginning of the nineteenth century." The last impeachment, according to May, was in 1806.

And he concludes by saying_that, "By the law of Parliament, all persons, whether peers or commoners,may be impeached for any I crimes whatever although impeachments have generally been . \ reserved for extraordinary crimes and extraordinary offenders." But I would not think the hon. Premier's momentary absence would have been an extrordinary crime. MR. NEARY: Absenteeism, gross neglect and mismanaga~ent. --

May 10, 1977 Tape 2443 (Morning) MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Stephenville. MR. I.J. MCNEIL: Hr. Speaker, before I get into my speech I would like to move an amendment, it is to be seconded by my hon. colleague from Port au Port (Mr. Hodder), to strike out PK - 1 the words after "resolved that" and to replace thee with the following:"This House affirms its faith in the future of Labrador Linerboard Limited and records its belief that there is no justification for closing the mill now,and that it ought not to close,not ought, excuse me, ought not to be closed by the government . " There are extra copies here.

MR. SPEAKER: It has been moved by the hon. member for Stephenville, seconded by the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) to strike out all of the words after "resolve:i that",and to replace them with the following: "This House affirms its faith in the future of the Labrador Linerboard Limited and records its belief that there is no justification for closing the mill now, and it ought not to be closed by the government." The hon. member for Stephenville. MR. MCNEIL: I thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, as the amendment reads,we feel that Labrador Linerboard should not close and that the government has not acted in the best interest of our Newfoundland people. ·The government set up an Advisory Board which was given the task to look into all aspects of the operation and advise the government on their findings. They were given in the terms of reference between four and six months. In the last six months in Stephenvi1le,with the appointment of the new manager, Mr.

Sweeney, there has been a air of optimism; finally the people bega n-£Db elieve that Labrador Linerboard for the first time ever could be turned around. The Advisory Board put forward recommendations, its new president gave .,

May 10, 1977 Tape 2443 (Morning) PK- 2 Mr. McNeil: a new life into the area. The top management, the workers and even the town's people themselves thoug~t, and still do today, that Labrador Linerboard can be turned around and made into a viable operation. But they did not expect that our Newfoundland government would turn their backs on them. The least they expected was that o~r g'?ve:~ent would turn their backs on them when they needed them most. The people in Bay St. George have been sold for a few pieces of silver by our Moores P.C. Government.

They are more concerned for trying to balance their books than looking at the welfare of our people 1 when the facts are pointing that Labrador Linerboard can possibly be turned around. This is coming from people ~from the Advisory Board who are suppose to be experts in their field. They are not politicians, they are business- men. Nm..r t·:rhen you look at the Advisory Board group, the Advisory Board group as · set up, the Chairman is Mr. 'fi_ttemc_lre, President of Price. Other members of the Board would be Mr.

Bennett,the President of the Iron Ore Company of Canaca, a respected Canadian businessman, another man >vould be John Andrews,Executive Vice­ President of Consolidated Bathrust, a respected Canadian businessmen, Jack Sheeley,President of Bowaters Canada, a respected Canadian businessmen, Lewis Ayre.,Chairman of.:.Ayres Limited, a \oJell known and respected Newfoundlander 7 and a businessman, Ford Hewlett, President and General Manager of Hewlett's Sons Limited. again a respected businessman; and then we have a secretary, Rollie Martin, Deputy Minister of Finance.

On May 7 we see in the Financial Post a statement by the President of Labrador Linerboard, the new President, Hr. Sweeny, >vas only on loan to our Province with a group of fine businessmen trying to find solutions to our problem in an industry which we in this House, no one here has any bad knowledge of the industry, and 'tvhich we in this House should rely on them for their information ·- ----

I }fay 10' 1977 Tape No. 2444 NM- 1 MR. McNEIL: and advice. What do we do? We ignored their reports. The President of the Mill, Mr. Sweeney, headlines, "Labrador Linerboard's Boss Fighting Mad· About Closure." And then we have in the preliminary report, the Advisory Board Committee, recommendations from the board to close down~ so we are told by our government. But when I looked through -this little brief, I do not see it in print where they recommended the closing down of Labrador Linerboard.

They say, "Under present conditions." And also in another report, the alternative products report, they advise the government that in three years it can be turned around if you spend $12.3 million in capital expenditur&~ to improve the operations, to get down your fixed cost. Mr. Speaker, our government has not only turned their backs on the Bay St. George people and the people in Newfoundland as a whole, they have told respected businessmen of Canada, "We do not need your advice, your solid business advice.

We just want you to get before us so you can be a smoke screen, so you will keep the political pressures off of us, keep the people off of our backs. That is why you set up the Advisory Board. You used these people as puppets. About a month ago I went to Mr. Sweeney's office and I must say he is a very fine, respected man and always defending the government, which he should. He did state - ~.SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): I wonder would the hon. member yield? MR. MeNEIL: Yes. Yes. MR. SPEAKER (MR.

YOUNG): I - we icome , to the galleries or behalf of all the members of the House of Assembly forty-nine students from Eastport Central High School in Eastport~from grades eight and nine, accompanied by their teachers, Mr. Boyd Glover, Mr. Major, and Miss Grant r · ~ I trust your stay will be enjoyable. SOME HON ~ '}!EMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. STRACHAN: . Mr. Speaker, I just want to have a quorum. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOTmC::): A quorwn call. We have a quorum.

Hay 10,1977 MR. SPEAKER: AN HON. :ME!-ffiER : 'HR. '~'kNElL : Tape 2445 (Morning) The hon member for Stephenville. People on TV cannot (Inaudible) AH-1 I am not interested in getting on TV, I would like to impress the importance on this House,who are supposed to be running the Province, the imp~rtance of trying to keep Labrador Linerboard operating, not have another failure. ~~at are we in Newfoundland going to become,an industrial junkyard in the eyes of the world? Mr. Speaker, I mentioned earlier that I was speaking to Mr.

Sweeney about one month back and I asked him, I asked him why did he come to Ne~vfoundland, why did he take the challenge set before him~did he really believe in his heart that the government would listen to him and listen to him and his board? And he said he is here for one reason~to make the mill operate~and he believes it can operate and he believed that the government would listen to him and listen to his Advisory Board.

But I doubt very much if even our government has even read the reports.From the information that is coming back~so far I have not seen any of it, there are a couple of little reports that were tabled in the Rouse but they say very little, it is what they do not say is the thing that amazes me,and that maybe Mr. Sweeney is right~maybe our bureaucrats are misleading our han. members, maybe the problem lies \o7ith the bureaucrats- -in- that Linerboard was scheduled to close down1two years ago. Mr.

Speaker~ going back nm years ago and in the understanding of the ·marke_tp_lace and our high cost of wood and of the government close at that time~maybe we would have said there is no way that it can ever make money~there is no way that it will even breaR even on its operating eXpenses. But in the last six months \ve have seen in Stephenville, mostly because of the efforts of one man, that he has brought a little bit of hope to an industry that is one of Canada's best. }ffi. SMALLWOOD: ·And if he had been there from the beginning of I

~fay 10,1977 Tape 2445 (Horning) AH-2 MR. SHALUlOOD: operations it would be a different story. ~ffi. McNEIL: He did say, he says he is sorry that he did not come about a year earlier, it may not be running now as a - and making money,but it would not have all the massive nroblems that it has. It is one mistake after another,built upon one bang, bang right aft_er another,rnistake after mistake. But let us take a look at the total problem • Going back from day .one the major problem that was cited,the single most expensive in regards to losses~was our wood.

I will go back to the man of that time~the Chairman of the Board, Mr. Crosbie,and I will just read a little part of Hansard, I quote "When I spoke in the House in 1972 -1973 in detail on Labrador Linerboard I said then and I say now- MR. SMALLWOOD: ~~ose words are these? MR.

McNEIL: John Crosbies, these are John Crosbie's words."I said then and I say now it can never be economically feasible and I said ;then and I say now that will alw·ays cost., it will always have to be assisted by the people of the PLovince through the government if it is to continue in operation because it got the most abominable wood cost of any mill anywhere in the world" Now we all realize there is a great wood cost •

May 10 t 1977 Tape No. 2446 NM - 1 MR. HCNEIL: Well we all hear about the USt Southern mills, they have cheap wood. True,they have cheap wood but they have problems in wood as well. MR. MORGAN: No,cheaper labour. MR. MCNEIL: I would like to just quote a remarks from a Mr. Stanford Smith, a US giant in the paper industry. "In tneir- cautious and skeptical moods the industry managers must cripple with a new set of long term uncertanties as well. One of the largest of those has to do with the availabilit y of -- the industrv's raw materials.

Once you could put a pin anywhere . 1 on the map in the South, build a mill there and people would just come out of the woods with wood," says IP's Stanford Smith. "No more, 11 he added, "Timber is getting to be in short supply around the world. Even Sweden has begun importing wood chips from the US to feed its paper mills and harvesting regulations seem likely to get tougher on federal lands." MR. SMALL\mOD: Wood chips from the US to Sweden? MR. MCNEIL: Right. MR. SMALLWOOD: Across the Atlantic. HR. MCNEIL: Across the Atlantic. And we cannot even bring it from our Island to our own mill.

We are sitting in the midst of it and ~"e cannot get our industry off the ground. Mr. Speaker, the Chairman of the Canadian Pulp and Pap~r Association in a little bulletin states, "It is fair to state that there is good evidence that Canadian costs are lower than Scandanavian costs and higher than American costs.

Scandanavians have similar employment costs, much more expensive wood costs but s~me advantage in transportation and their capital costs are comparable." Checking across in the Canadian industry itself I have called several mills across Canada and they t·ell me that when your wood cost per cord goes over $75 in the year 1976-77 then you are going

May 10, "1977 Tape No. 2446 NM - 2 MR. MCNEIL: to have problems -~~the market place. The closer you are to the_,$50 level, as a low and high, then you are going to be more competitive. So if we are going to supply wood to Labrador Linerboard as our · Advisory Board has reported,at about $60 a cord on an average or possibly a little lower, then why can we not make a success of the industry? Our wood costs was a problem and now we are starting to see a little bit of light. And our government in their wisdom wants to close up the operation. Why? Maybe it is the lack of wisdom? MR.

SMALLWOOD: Practically all of the pap~r mills in England are h~sed on wood that they have to import. MR. MCNEIL: That is true. And another thing that my han. colleague from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) has mentioned, that mostly all the mills in England are based on wood that they have to import and we - 1>1R. SMALLWOOD: From Russia, from Finland. MR.. !-iCNE IL : And we in Newfoundland are sitting in the midst of forests, one of our primary resource, our natural base resources~and we cannot make a success of it. What chance do we have in anything else?

Are we all going to go out picking . blueberries for a living? Is this why we have the people up in the galleries, the leaders of tomorrow, the people of tomorrow? Are we going to te~l them that you are going to be reduced to be berry pickers? Mr. Speaker, there will not be enough blueberries to cover the massive unemployment that we are heading for. In 1973 we had a report on the Newfoundland Federal-Provincial Task Force on forestry. In 1973 it was pointed out that if Labrador Linerboard was going to be a viabie operation it had to realign its forest concessions.

There is enough wood on the Island to sustain three mills. It was pointed out then to the government that something had to be done. What did our government do? They sat on it. They did not do a thing,- · a do-nothing government. There is no doubt about it, Tory times are hard times. Why? Because they do nothing.

May 10, 1977 Tape No. 2447 NM- 1 MR. MCNEIL: It also spoke in this report about marketing. It stated that an ~ggressive_mar}(et_ing; C<ini.E_~ign aimed particularly at the European market,must be started now. And what did we do? We turned around and gave the marketing of our product to a US firm, a peanut operation who never sold Linerboard before. MR. SMALLWOOD: Or anything else. MR. MCNE-IL: Well I do not know what else they sold. MR. SMALL1~lOOD: No. They were formed to sell this. They have never sold anything. MR. MCNEIL: Our Newfoundland Government, we make millionaires of people from outside.

Maybe we should be telling our people not to ·elect our own people as politicians to come into this "' Rouse and direct the affairs of our Province, maybe we should be telling them, "Go down to Wall Street and elect your members, because they control this Province." It is not us here in the Rouse. Another example of how the people in-the Bay St. George area have been treated with regard to the Newfoundland people itself; during the past months we had the Harmon Corporation- or the Newfoundland and Labrado Rousing Corporation had a rent increase.

The people in that area, because of the uncertainty in the area, asked to meet with their Minister of Housing, Ee did go out. MR. DINN: Their member did not show up. MR.. MCNEIL: I am talking about the tenants now.- MR. DINN: Yes. The member was not there. MR. MCNEIL: The member was not invited. The member was here in St. John's at the time. MR. NEARY: He did not even invite you? MR. MCNEIL: Oh do not you worry. They keep me w~ll informed. Do not worry. But what did the minister do? The minister told the ~ecutive, "If you do not like it~get out." Now that is what· he told the people of Bay St.

George when he knew or had an idea

- May 10, 1977 Tape No. 2447 MR. MCNEIL: that Labrador Linerboard was in a very bad situation and possibly the closure was just around the corner. Now, Mr. Speaker, if you are living into NM- 2 an area - now I grew up in Stephenville and I have went through the closure of the Harmon Base. Now we lived with that from day one;that someday it would go. And that feeling still went even when Labrador Linerboard was put there and people said from day one that it was a bad move, the location was wrong, and that is _ the only argument they had, the location is wrong.

But you can take wood from here in Newfoundland or from Canada and you can ship it to Europe for their mills and we say here, we have got wood on the Island and because the mill is in Stephenville the location is wrong. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I can buy an argument but ~o1hen you take your raw resource from one country into another., and within your own Province you cannot take that raw resource and put it to a location a little further away than the normal and cannot make a success of it when you have all the infrastructure there and cannot make a success of it~where is the problem( And I have got to say and I can feel in my heart that it has to be our government do not care about the people they serve. Mr. Speaker, in 1966 the Base moved. People had a little bit of property they invested in.

Costs were down, we did not hit the inflation period. People left their homas. boarded them up and walked a~o1ay from them. Today it is a different situation. Today the people who have homes in the Stephenville area have mortgages, high mortgages; If the bank wants to move in they will lose everything,and they do not only lose their material possession that they have, they lose something else that they value, their credit, their stature in the financial circles. You are tearing the heart and soul right out of the people themselves; t~ey have no dignity.

May 10, 1977 Tape No. 2447 MR • M,CNE IL : Mr. Speaker, during the past year, two years, Stephenville has been dying while our govermnent sits back and they tell us, ''We do not want to hold out any false hOJ>e NM- 3 to you. W'e want to tell you the facts as they are. 11 Mr. Speaker, how much information has came forward? ---

May 10, 1977 Tape 2448 (Horning) PK - 1 Mr. McNeil: I am the same member for the district, and every scrap of information that I have I had to get it through some devious means, for the betterment of my _people. I have gone to the government for information, we have set up the joint councils, a committee, we requested information from them, and they keep putting us off. So finally they set up this Advisory Board. And with the Advisory Board~we looked at it, we had our doubts in some areas, we did not believe that the government would listen to the Advisorry Board.

And now today it has proven when you have your president of that company, the president of the company and the key man dealing with the Advisory Board, the Advisory Board has to go back to him for -mostly all of the information, and that is where the information is,out in the Stephenville area. It is not here in this House. The bureaucrats downstairs can turn their figures around any way to suit themselves.

And when you get the management people in the six month period taking an industry which had a capacity of 1,000 tons, and the day before our Buc!ge t Speech produce 1, 200 tons, .broke their own record, and go back to about a year before - MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. MCNEIL: MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. McNEIL: Twelve hundred. Twelve hundred tons - Two hundred over the Two hundred over the capacity that it was originally designed for, and she cannot operate! Do you realize, Mr.

Speaker, that when you produce at that high rate, and this is people in the industry that tell me, that you are saving yourself anywhere from $20 to $30 per ton,and our government wants to close it upl They want to walk away. The people of Newfoundland should demand that the Moores Government resign. But very few people, very few people realize the seriouness of this. One of our industries was based on a natural resource, and we cannot get off the ground with it. MR. MORGAN: knows --- .;::.- -

May 10, 1977 Tape 2448 PK - 2 MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER (Mr. YOUNG): Order, please! MR. HCNEIL: Mr. Speaker, if we cannot get off the ground with a resource based industry~what chance do we have for the fishery industry getting off the ground? They are much the same. We got the wood here, the wood is a resource that continues, it will be here a thousand years from now if the spruce budworm do not get it. AN HON. MEMBER: And it is properly managed. MR. MCNEIL: And it is properly managed.

But our oil, our oil which we are putting the hope on, this oil around our banks, how·long does that last? MR. J. WINSOR: It is not found yet. MR. MCNEIL: And it is not found yet. But after about twenty years after it will be gone. Mr. Speaker - MR. NOLAN: A point of order,if I am allowed. Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order because the bon. member who no one can charge is taking up the -time of this House in any foolishness in all the time· -he has been here is now attempting to make a speech on his district,which is very important not only to the people in the St. George's area but also to this Province.

And surely, Mr. Speaker, it is not too much to ask that at least he be given this one opportunity to be heard in silence. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! --- ·· MR.. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): To- that --poin t of order, T_ would like . to as:k- ~~1-:ers -on both sides of the House that a member has every right to be heard in silence. I would ask you to adhere to that ruling. The bon. member for Stephenville. MR. MCNEIL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. --- - .... __ .... - ---- K.N HON • MEMBER: A good ruling. - -SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear , hear~

May 10, 1977 Tape 2448 PK - 3 MR. I'!CNEIL: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. Hinister of Transportation could keep our highways in a good condition in the same manner that he can wave his tongue about we would have a pretty good highway. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Thi~ is not personal! This is not personal: SOME RON. ~ERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): Ordet, please! MR. MORGAN: Keep it up,· too. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! MR. MCNEIL: Mr.

Speaker, if I may back to the past year in Stephenville. just for a moment just go Like I said before,the cammuni ty is dying, and we have been going through this in the past two years, and very few people have been realizing - the people themselves in the community have a lot of optimism, a lot of hope, and you try to realize,

May 10, 1977 Tape No. 2449 I EC- 1 MR. McNEIL: where did they get it from! The:y have been down so many times and still they keep fighting back, but the fight is getting weaker and weaker. And, Mr. Speaker, that is going to spread right across our Island, because in this Province in the last five years L we have had failure after failure after failure. Now, why? Now in Stephenville itself, if you look at the population, it is a young town dealing - yes, it is probably the best time that you could take and have a sample of your younger population. Over half your population is under the age of twenty- five.

That is your hope for tomorrow. And if Stephenville fails, if our government crushes the spirit of these people, what hope do we have for the rest of Newfoundland?

And when you take an industry like Linerboard where it deals with so much of the forest based industry and you use even the multiplier effect on jobs, which few people do not want to use because they say it is not right, ahd when Statistics Canada uses the !igures,and they give fo~ a linerboard industry : three to one, and you look at the wage salaries in the vicinity of $20 million and you give it a three to one multiplier effect that would be $60 million that you are taking out of circulation in Newfoundland. $60 million. MR. SMALLWOOD: A year? MR. McNEIL: A year. So, Mr. Speaker - MR.

SMALLWOOD: Over and abov_e the wage bill of the factory itself? MR. McNEIL: That is right. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is about $80 million. MR. McNEIL: So, Mr. Speaker, the situation that we are into is very serious. I do not think - well, I think it is just _as serious as maybe 1920 to 1932 - AN BON. MEMBER: 1932 - MR. McNEIL: 1932 - 1933? AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. MR. McNEIL: Well, let me just go back to the wood again.

In the Advisory Report - the information memorandum, ·- ----- - - the government has determined that· on-Island wood resources are sufficient to meet t~e req~irements of all industrial enterprises ·in the Province. MR. SMALLWOOD: Three mills. MR. McNEIL: Three mills.

May 10, 1977 Tape No. 2449 EC - 2 MR. McNEIL: But now I am told - and some of the work of the Advisory Board - that in order to make sure that they can get an economic wood supply, they have gone outside our Province and are going to possibly buy some of the wood from Nova Scotia, P.E.I. - infested wood - as budworm infested wood.

And here we are in this Province when we h~ve our forests being infested with our budworm - being infested and causing a potential thre~t ,_ not only_ to __ Labrador Linerboard, because we are told we cannot have any of our Island wood, but it is posing a threat to Bowaters and Price and possibly in a few years, will destroy our whole forests. And here we are -we are ignoring this, rather than trying to harvest this infested wood with all three mills getting together jointly and splitting the cost ' how- ever low or high it is, because you are dealing with the future. You must consider the future of the forests.

And if you do not do something now with this infested wood, in ten, twenty years you will ~ave no forests at all. So that means that Bowaters, Price will close as well, because your raw resource is not there. Why? Because of inactivity of our Moores P.C. Government. Mr. Speaker, we have heard a lot about the losses of Labrador Linerboard. We are told time and time again that it can not meet its operating expenses and it will never meet its operating expenses.

But if you look at one of the tables in the report, and this is one of . - the reports done by the Advisory Board Committee, _ an alternate_ products lines ~ommittee, in one of the tables it ~peaks - t am

May 10, 1977 Tape No. 2450 NM- 1 MR. MCNEIL: using the government figures as well. I it gives the cost per year, or the number of tons and the mill net sales. So in the year 1977-78 they have_ a production of 166,500 tons selling at $188, net sale price. So if you work it out your actual loss per ton on operating, only operating itself now, is $88.87, that is in 1977-78. BHt if you move on - MR. SMALLWOOD: Move then to what price? MR. MCNEIL: Well this is their projected figures at the current prices. :HR. SMALLWOOD: At what cost? Wood at what cost? MR. MCNEIL: I am not really sure. I think it is - wait now. MR.

S:M..ALLWOOD : Maybe over $100. MR. MCNEIL: $128 per ton. MR. SMALLWOOD: A ton? : MR. MCNEIL: Two cords of wood so roughly~yes. Okay? But if we move on-and no capital expenditure made in the plant ' itself. So we move on to the year 1978-79, taking the projected sales volume of 288,000 tons, selling mill net at $230 per ton, you come down to actual operating loss per ton for 1978-79 of $24.56. All right? Actual operating loss per ton.

And then if you move to 1979-80, at a projected sale volume of 265,000 tons and selling at S268 per ton. mill nets,and that will be with wood cost of $68.87 per cord, you will get a profit,or shall we say a gain on your operating expenses of $6.04, that is for 1979-80• a gain in your operating expense, Mr. Speaker. And here we are·knowing these figures,and the government has them but they are not saying a thing about them~ they are giving just one side of the coin, telling the people what it is going to cost each man and woman and child in this Province, what it is going to ~ost to keep Labrador Linerboard open.

Hay 10, 1977 Tape No. 2450 MR. MCNEIL: Why did the government not tell them how much it was going to cost to close? The cost of closing is greater than the cost of keeping it operating. The Advisory Board Committe in their ~lternate line product has suggested that within three years that operation can be turned around. But no, Mr. Speaker, our government does not want to listen to exper-ts" "in the field, people, businessmen who ran the industry itself, who spent all their life, the President thirty-five years in the industry, and then our Premier states that he got a little carried away.

Dear God,could our Premier not get carried away and try to fight for us so that we could be a have province, not a have-notJ sm-m RON. MEMBERS : Rear: Rear! NM- 2 MR. MCNEIL: Our government is not interested in human lives. They are not interested in we as people. Why are you in government if you are not interested in people? If you are interested in figures why did you not stay in the Finance Department or go in business totally1 People in business are more concerned with figures but oddly enough you know they are more human than our politicians.

Our politicians are supposed to be sensitive to the needs of the people. They are supposed to have an understanding. But our government is not. They tell us we are gone. We are finished. Dig a grave. Our government are not builders of our Province. They are undertakers. AN RON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! Destroyers. MR. MCNEIL: Destroyers. You can say that again. Capital improvements - this is a report. Now I guess it does not mean much to our government.

1-iay 10,19 77 Tape 2451 (Morning) AH-1 MR.

McNEIL: They are not concerned with information they are getting from the people in the industry, business_llle!l_~ _They __ will take their advice from their bureaucrats first before they will deal with people who have been all their lives in the industry itself .'1Capital requirements!dn all of the cases listed above it is considered essenti~l to ~ake full advantag e ,of cost saving : potentials inherent in the craft process __. and primarily associated with raw materials,supply and energy, these being a series of smaller __ increment investments thev relate to any" of the three ortions · utilized in the modern craft _nulnine facilities already in place." "It seems obvious that if the mill is to continue to operate that most of these capital expenditures must be undertaken as soon as possible to maximize the return and put the operations in a more viable position~ qui ckly to improve ~ts co~etitiveness before underforecast linerboard ·markets price volume improvements in 1978, 1977-1978 and the following year. these improvements are summarized in a priliminary way in comparison reports which indicate that the return on a modest capital expenditure programme $12.3 million undertaken over the next three years can make Labrador Linerboard profitable at an operating level in that time frame even -under the budget most likely prices and volumes.

It suggests certainly that if the programme is pursued energetically the ' Cro~m could in fact retire all bonded debts from the proceeds to 1984 without the expenditure required to change product line.'' They are telling us, Mr.

Speaker, that <-1e do not have to change to another product, thatlinerboard itself - the markets are improving that there is a hope in staying with Linerboard and that if you want to get your fixed cost down you do a three year . capital expenditure programme in the amount of $12.3 million, it will not only pay for itself over these three years but it will probably start servicing the debt.

Hay 10,1977 Tape 2451 (Morning) AH-2 MR. McNEIL: Now that is unbelievable 1! It goes on also,_ "We _ ___ _ are not yet ready to abandon Linerboard as a po~entially profitable product!' This is your Advisory Board saying that they are not going to abandon it and our government has given up and,Mr.

Speaker, they have given up and do you knm.r that they have not received all the reports from the Advisory Board, they have not received the final report they have made their decision and the decision is a grave one which -.;.vill affect not us new today but ten or twenty years down the line, that our Province if we close up that industry­ that our children will have to pay in the vicinity - or our Province -.;.;rill pay about three quarters of a billion dollars. Mr. Speaker, that is not peanuts! Mr.

Speaker, as I see it,and I am no expert in the field but I have been close to the situation~! have watched it,I have s~en ·the past year-in Stephenville itself,! have seen mismanaeemP.ftt when workers come to you and tell you through their union - or go to their union and ask their union to go management and ask management to tighten up - it has to be a desperate situation. But the problem did not all lie with management itself • The problem there was political interference - political interference, Mr. Speaker, management could not manage.

Every time management made a decision -~ in some particular aspect they had to go back to the Cabinet or to the Chairman of the Board, Mr. Crosbie,who has no experience in the paper industry but still he is the one who makes the final decisions. So actually v.•hat do -.;.re have in 11Snagement itselff· - Maybe they - -­ are just all civil servants.

May 10, 1977 Tape 2452 (Horning) PK - 1 Mr. McNeil: Mr. Speaker, to just cite you an example of politically interference, now the financial statements,and they are open to anybody, they show that even though the market was forecast for a poor year in linerboard, that the industry was falling, that the bottom fell out of it, and it is still dropping a bit, this was going on in the last year, and our management p~opl~ were suggesting ~hat we got to cut back our inventories because we have to keep ourself in tune with the market as the trend goes, and we were dropping. What were we doing?

Ten million dollars more in inventory in sales volume. Now that is in the financial statements, $10 ~illion more in volume. Now, Mr. Speaker, this was pointed out to the government. And to give you an example of the seriousness of the inventory situation, inventory in 1972-1973, finished goods, was $1,581,000 - MR. SUALLWOOD: MR. MCNEIL: Dollars? Dollars, yes. Inventory in 1973-1974, $4,615,000; in 1974-1975, finished goods, $4,629,000; in 1975-1976 we have our inventory, unfin!shed goods, going up to $5,747,000. MR. SMALLWOOD: That is paper, linerboard paper? MR. MCNEIL: Finished goods. MR.

SHALLWOOD: Ready for market~ MR. MCNEIL: Right ready for market .. All right. Pulp '..\'Ood . chips etc. 1972-1973, $13,348,000; 1973-1974 $12,933,000; in 1974-1975 $18,811,000; in 1975-1976 wood chips, pulpwood and your-chips inventory, 1975-1976-we were told that the bottom had fell out of the market. Our wood inventory was $24,619,000. Ope~ating and maintenance supplies, in 1972-1973, $3,074,000; in 1974-1975 $4,500,000; in 1974-1975 $9,927,000- HR. SHALLWOOD: For what? MR. :HCNEIL: This is operating and maintenance supplies. }ffi. S:HALLWOOD: Supplies? MR. :HCNEIL: :Haintenance supplies.

In 1975-1976~$13,256,000. Now we were all told -

Hay 10, 1977 Tape 2452 (Heming) PK - 2 HR. SHALLWOOD: Who were the suppliers? HR. MCNEIL: Now that is a good question. We were all told that the bottom had fallen out of the indu~try. The management recommended a cutback on inventory. HR. SMALUJOOD : So they stock up on more wood, on more supplies as the market went down. MR. MCNEIL: As the market.went down. MR. SMALLWOOD: Good marketing. MR. MCNEIL: So if you total all of these up in 1972 and 1973 you had $18,300,000; 1974-1975 was $22,048,000; 1974-1975,$33,367,000; 1975-1976~$43,622,000. AN HON. MEMBER: In dollars? HR.

MCNEIL: vJell this is the total now, your finished goods, pulpwood, chips, operating and maintenance supplies, an increase from 1972 to 1975-1976 when the bottom was out of the industry and in which the government was told, the management suggested that it should cut back, an increase of 240 per cent, and then the I government says, we did not interfere into the operation. We did not interefere we have been trying to encourage it. But management asked government to cut back. We said we have cu; back for our survival or we cannot make it. What did the government do? AN HON. MEMBER: . Inaudible. MR.

MCNEIL: This is all of inventory. MR. SMALLWOOD: He worked with John Crosbie. MR. MCNEIL: Now, Mr. Speaker, I am going to give you an example of - now I know that the hon. gentleman do not say, Well that is only the Opposition member being negative, trying to tear the government apart, our good

Hay 10, 1973 Tape 2453 (Morning) AH-:-1 MR. McNEIL: government who are giving a little bit of hope to our Newfoundland people. Mr. Speaker, business people recommended to the government that if you are going t~ be in this industry when the market goes down - nm,T your sales volume is down, you have got to cut your inventory back a bit,you have got to try and balance the two.- ~~en your market is booming,pull in the inventory and you will not be able to get it out.You have to keep it rolling. Anything that is sitting there is costing you money. Now, Mr.

Speaker, realizing the situation with inventory realizing that the management people went to their Board of Directors,and the Board of Directors I imagine got around the Cabinet table ar '!;vent back to Cabinet and said 11 Because the market is bad we have to cut back, because the market is bad we have to try to bring our operating expenses do~~ and in line so that we do not have such a great loss!' And when you read other material from other companies in the world~they tell you that when the market is bad you have to cut back and that is why you have so much down time~and that is why the industries say that \vhen the market is bad you do not keep producing at a fifty per cent rate because you are l~sing monev.

Any time your plant is working less than at seventy per cent you are loosing an arm and a leg; you have to keep producing at a high ratio if you want to make the gravy. And when your mill in Stephenville has proven itself whereby it not only exceeded its capacity,; and not only met its ca~acitv of lOCO tons a day~it has gone ever it to 1200 tons it can produce, so the problem, Mr. Speaker, is not in the plarit, it is not with the workers or the group of management people, the problem, Mr. Speaker, is oolitical interference in business decisions which have to·be sometimes very cold.

But our government want to be politicans, they want to be great business people, they want to be saviours. And w·hat are they? Undertakers. And this is a memorandum· to the executive council, this was in 1976, "~o¥~rch of this year~the company

'Hay 10,1977 Tape 2453 (Morning) AH-2 HR. }1cNEIL: presented a budget to the Board of Directors which showed a need for 343,000 cords of wood this year .. _ The market situation has not picked up ·as has been earlier anticipated and the mill nets for Linerboard have actually _ decreased over the last couple of months resulting in even less sales than had been earlier projected.

Our higher manufacturing cost means that we must seek our higher mill' nets ,,.;rhich in effect make it more difficult to sell -Linerboard•As a result our wood requirements for this year will only be 282,700 cords,or a decrease of 60,300 cords." 11 By curtailing the c~mpany' s operations and receiving some wood from Bowaters,the net effect onpurchased wood would be a reduction of 46,500 cords.

If Labrador Linerboard carries out its proposed reductions in wood purchase to reflect the necessary adjustments for sales it will have to advise our wood suppliers to reduce their deliveries to the mill by 40.9 per cent across the board." reduce alright~We will have to reduce 40.9 per cent across the boardt 11 During the first month of the strike the company continued to purchase pulpwood since they did not know how long the strike would last.- As it became evident that the strike would continue for some time the company had to cut off the same suppliers of wood approximately two and one half months already this calendar year.

During the time deliveries of pulpwood were suspended,

May ~0, 1977, Tape 2454, Page 1 -- apb I MR. MCNEIL: many of the suppliers carne very close to bankruptcy. Some of them have not recovered fully and are still having difficulty in meeting their financial commitments. We are now faced with the position of having to go back to the same suppliers who have not fully recoverd and inform them that they will have to cut back on their deliveries to the mill by 4 0. 9 per cent •11 ''Our officials inform us that should this eventually materialize the majority of these suppliers will be forced into bankruptcy~' Now why? Why, Mr.

Speaker, would they be forced into bankruptcy? Were they small operations that just started off and dependent?n contract? Were these contractors mostly supporters of the P.C.Party? This is where the political hogwash comes in. HR. !-1URP HY : Would the hon. gentleman? You referred to a site, where was this particular site at the Linerboard itself? MR. MCNEIL: Yes. MR. MURPHY: Oh, I see. This was in the mill itself, not in the logging industry end of it. I see. MR.

MCNEIL: On the other hand,the company has done everything possible short of buying the extra \-.rood and stuff, piling it to ensure the suppliers of pulpwood are looked after. The company has curtailed its whole operations resulting in 250 men in Bay St. George being without employment this year. If you are going to - ~ut back anything you cut it back at Bay St. George. But they would not cut back any woods contractors across the Island: ~he people in Bay St. George supplied cheaper wood than elsewhere.

We cut off our cheap wood and continue with our high ~ ~e cut off the cheap wood, yes, that is the way the government moves. Wood left in the

May 10, 1977, Tape 2454, Page 2 -- apb MR. MCNEIL: Codroy Valley, in that area, that we could have gotten for linerboard for about $38.00 a cord. They by-passed us and went to Bowaters and I think they picked it up for forty-some~odd bucks, I am not sure. We did not need that, because we are a government operation, we have lots of money. "If we proceed to further cut back the suppliers to adjust 'to the current market situation the consequence will likely be most serious for the majority of the suppliers of pulpwood concerned as well as the men that they have working for them.

Additionally we have been informed by the Deputy Minister of Forestry that the sawmill at Hawke's Bar will be forced to close down since the contractors are not able to go in their and only cut wood for that particular company. We would require a contract for approximately 10,000 cords of wood of which 2,000 would be _saw logs which we would keep the mill going for a month or two and the remainder would be available to ship to Stephenville. The Deputy Minister of Forestry informed us that the wood can be delivered to dockside in Hawke's Bay for approximately $40.00 per cord.

This price is attractive to Labrador Linerboard but the wood is not actually required at this time. 11 It is attractive but the wood is not required at this time. ''If the government permits the company to take this course of action and cut back to adjust to market conditions, then the situation is likely to become most serious and could be further compounded if the market situation suddenly takes . an upturn after the end of the year.

If the suppliers of pulpwood are forced out of business,and should the government continue to operate the mill, then a serious wood problem would result~' I would agree with that. 1' I now seek advice from my

May 10, 1977, Tape 2454, Page 3 -- apb HR. MCNEIL: colleagues in deciding whether or not the company should proceed with this 40.9 per cent reduction in pulpwood delivery or if government should direct the company to purchase the extra 46,500 cords from our suppliers as well as the 8,000 cords from Hawke's _Bay to keep the sawmill operation going up there. To sum up, $3,360,000 would have to be made available by the government to cover this extra purchase." Now that is a memorandum by John Crosbie to the Executive Council- all right? - to Cabinet. MR. HICKMAN: That is a confidential mem6raridum of Cabinet? HR.

MCNEIL: It is memorandum marked confidential, yes. MR. HICKMAN: What is the date of that? -MR. MCNEIL: 1976. Now on July 9, 1976, we have a letter from Mr. Crosbie going to the management of the mill ·'

May 10' 1977 Tape No. 2455 NM- 1 ·1-'R. HCNEIL: management and this is what is contained in the letter, '~y colleagues and I have reviewed this paper in Cabinet . as it affects the wood suppliers of Labrador Linerboard II and we have decided the company should not cut back on any pnlpwood·purchase·from them.

As you are aware the situation respecting pulpwood contractors on the Island is a most serious one and if we were to permit the porposed cut backs to materialize there is little doubt that grave consequences "tV"ould result which may affect several hundred people throughout the Island." But we do not mind closing down the ind~stry and affecting several thousand people. t'According to the information supplied by yourself and your officials it would have reen necessary to reduce pulpwood purchases by 46,500 cords in order to achieve your inventory objectives for March 31, 1977.

Cabinet recognizes the financial situation this company is in but they still wish the company to purchase this additional wood as long as it is done under the terms of the contract •11 Now what were the terms of the contract? PC supporter? Is that one of the terms? "''This does not mean that you have to accept any wood from contractors who are not living up to your terms of the contract~· That if they did not vote PC in the last electiOnS. 11 Any COntraCtOrS ~V'hO are not performing fOr any reason should be treated in a normal business way. 11 Well.

Well. fiAdditionally Cabinet reviewed the situation as it relates to the Hawkes Bay Mill and in this connection Cabinet has decided that if a contractor~·is able to deliver wood to the dock in Hawkes Bay for approximately $40 per cord, and if all other terms of an agreement to be worked out a~e satisfactory to the company~ then we would like the company to purchase 8,000 cords of wood from that contractor." MR. NEARY: Donations from the -

May 10, 1977 Tape No. 2455 l\"M - 2 MR. MCNEIL: Hallelujah, hallelujah. Now imagine. The management is asking to cut back the inventory and our Cabinet - all along we were blaming John Crosbie, John·Crosbie this and John Crosbie that. John Crosbie in this letter here went back to Cabinet and got approval from Cabinet. SOME RON. MEMBER: tlnaudible). ~. SIMMONS: By his usual devious means. }~. MCNEIL: The facts are here; your Cabinet made the decisions. It was not only John Crosbie, you are all in it together. Undertakers. }~. SIM!-fONS : Crosbie told them what to do but they did it. MR.

NEARY: Shower down administration. But the whole province . MR. SIMMONS: "The Deputy Minister of Forestry will be in touch with you on this matter but we want you to understand that this wood should he purchased only under conditions which are outlined in the Cabinet paper and which are acceptable to the company." Now how about that? If any problems arise with any of the contractors invoved in supplying the 46,500 cords, feel free to handle them in the same as you wou~d under normal circumstances. 11 The same situation also applies to the proposed supply of 8 ,OJO cords of ".rood from Hawkes nay.

Yours sincerely, John C. Crosbie, Hinistel of Intergovernmental Affairs, a "carbon copy going to Mr. Howard Ingram, another copy going to the hon. W. C. Doody, and another cop·y going to the hon. Ed Maynard. A~ RON. MEMBER: (lriaudible)~ MR. MC!\~IL: Now, Mr. Speaker, the government must take the blame for the . mess that we are into. MR. SIMMONS: Hear! Hear! HR. MCNEIL: The Stephenville Linerboard mill, the people in the area in the last couple of years have been told that they were the

May 10, 1977 Tape No. 2455 MR. MCNEIL: problem of all the ills of Linerboard, that management was atrocious, they were ridiculous, that the labour force was no go.od, that the people in Bay St. George were only a bunch of hicks so we can forget them. That is the attitude that that government has taken, Mr. Speaker. The facts are, and I have them here, NM- 3

May 10, 1977 Tape 2456 (_Horni_ng) PK - 1 Mr. McNeil: has interfe~ed into a private enterprise-.or not a private enterprise, but in a business. There is nothing the matter with the government owning the operation, if they do not play politics with it. And, Mr. Speaker, if you look at it in that light, if the government only operate it, and they let a management team handle it like - what it looks like you have now9 t~is g_entleman ,Mr •.

Sweeney, and the management are there, they are putting things together in the last six months, they have done things that we were told could never be done, we were told that she will never reach her capacity of 1,000 tons a day. And what did they do? They did not only reach it, they passed it. AN RON. MEMBER: MR. MCNEIL: Two hundred tons. Two hundred tons. Mr. Speaker, how do you expect the Newfoundland people to trust any government, any government if this is the way we are going to treat our people by asking for blood, and when all the blood is drained out you are asking for more.

It is only so far you can go if there is a little bit of leadership to be shmro., and we have not seen it. Mr. Speaker, again we see a situation where we have a group of businessmen, people in the field who are making recommendations to our government, and our government refuses to listen. It refuses to sit down a~d listen and weigh all the facts. And we ask for information time and time again. A few reports were tabled in the House. We got a little skimpy one which was done in a moment of haste.

Because I think the decision to close the La~rador Linerboard -as a matter of fact~I believe it firmly, and if I can get a little bit more proof I will bring it into the House - .the decision was made two years ago and all efforts by our technocrats and bureaucrats and politicians on the government side happen to close it down. They have given up. Why did no·t the government table these other reports? Why are they holding back information