British Columbia Hansard — Wednesday, November 19, 2003

H1119pm-10

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

4th Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Wednesday, November 19, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Volume 18, Number 10 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 4TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations ..................................................................................................... Hon.

Greg Halsey-Brandt Deputy Premier and Minister of Education............................................................................................................................. Hon. Christy Clark Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................................................................ Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries..................................................................................................................... Hon.

John van Dongen Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations..................................................................................... Hon. Geoff Plant Minister of Children and Family Development ..................................................................................................................... Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of State for Early Childhood Development...................................................................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services ..............................................................................................Hon. George Abbott Minister of State for Community Charter ..............................................................................................................................Hon. Ted Nebbeling Minister of State for Women's Equality..................................................................................................................................Hon.

Lynn Stephens Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise ..................................................................................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of State for Deregulation ..............................................................................................................................................Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Energy and Mines...............................................................................................................................................Hon.

Richard Neufeld Minister of Finance.........................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Gary Collins Minister of Forests................................................................................................................................................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Health Planning .....................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Sindi Hawkins Minister of Health Services.........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health................................................................................................................................... Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care ............................................................................... Hon.

Katherine Whittred Minister of Human Resources.................................................................................................................................................... Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Management Services ............................................................................................................................................ Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Provincial Revenue..................................................................................................................................................... Hon.

Bill Barisoff Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...................................................................................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour......................................................................................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Sustainable Resource Management ..........................................................................................................................Hon.

Stan Hagen Minister of Transportation..............................................................................................................................................................Hon. Judith Reid Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection ............................................................................................................................ Hon.

Joyce Murray LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition .......................................................................................................................................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole..............................................................................................................................................

Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ........................................................................................................................................... E. George MacMinn Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk ...............................................................................................................................................................Ian D.

Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant/Committee Clerk.................................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................................................................Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian ............................................................................................................................................................................ Joan A.

Barton Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hans ard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria. Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636.

Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca Hansard Services publishes transcripts both in print and on the Internet. Chamber debates are broadcast on television and webcast on the Internet.

Party Standings: Liberal 75; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 2. ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ..........................................................................Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L)............................................................... Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon.

Bill (L)...............................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Pat (L) ...........................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L)....................................................................................North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ..............................................................................East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ...................................................................

Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).....................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).......................................... Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L) ........................................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Brenzinger, Elayne (L)..................................................................Surrey-Whalley Brice, Susan (L)............................................................................... Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L) .................................................

Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L) .............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Hon. Gulzar S. (L)............................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Ida (L) .................................................................. Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Tom (L) ............................................................... Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ..............................................................................Yale-Lillooet Clark, Hon.

Christy (L) ....................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ................................................................................Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ..........................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)................................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon. Gary (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L) ........................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon.

Kevin (L) ............................................................ Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ......................................................................Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Hon. Greg (L)....................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)..............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) .......................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Roger (L) .........................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L)............................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L) ........................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ..................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon. Gordon (L)..........................................................

Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) ..................................................................................... Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)........................................................North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L).............................................................. Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L) ................................................................ Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L)................................................... Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)................................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).........................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................... Peace River South Les, John (L)............................................................................. Chilliwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ............................................................. Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) .................................................... Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L).........................................................

Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................. Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ............................................................ Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) ..............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ..................................................................................... Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L)............................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L).............................................................

New Westminster Nebbeling, Hon. Ted (L) ............................................ West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (Ind. L) ...................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) .......................................................

Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L).....................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L)..................................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Orr, Sheila (L) .............................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)......................................................................... Chilliwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ........................................................... Richmond-Steveston Reid, Hon.

Judith (L).............................................................. Nanaimo-Parksville Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ..................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L)...................................................................Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)............................................................................ Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).......................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L) .............................................. West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Hon.

Lynn (L) ........................................................................... Langley Stewart, Ken (L)........................................................ Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L)........................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L)..................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L) .........................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon.

Rick (L)............................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)..................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, Hon. John (L)..................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L)...................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).......................................................... Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Hon. Katherine (L)....................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)..............................................................................Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)..............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn ........................................................ Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman................................................Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum ........................................................................

Gillian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ................................................................ Dennis MacKay Burnaby North................................................................................ Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds.............................................................................. Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon ........................................................................John Nuraney Burquitlam............................................................................................

Harry Bloy Cariboo North..................................................................................... John Wilson Cariboo South........................................................................................Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ................................................................................

Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas ....................................................................................John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke .....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .............................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville............................................................... Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .........................................................Hon. Graham P.

Bruce Delta North.............................................................................................Reni Masi Delta South...................................................................................Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .....................................................................................Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin .................................................................... Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove....................................................... Hon.

Rich Coleman Kamloops ......................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson.......................................................... Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country .................................................................John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ...................................................................Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley.................................................................................. Hon. Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca.......................................................................

Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ......................................................................Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows............................................................... Ken Stewart Nanaimo .............................................................................................Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville.....................................................................Hon. Judith Reid Nelson-Creston......................................................................... Blair F.

Suffredine New Westminster .................................................................... Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast .......................................................................................... Bill Belsey North Island.......................................................................................... Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale ........................................... Hon. Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour ..............................................................

Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head......................................................................... Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon .......................................................................Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside................................................................... Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North ...............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South ..........................................................................Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley...................................................... Hon.

Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain......................................................Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood ...........................................................Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast............................................................Harold Long Prince George North ................................................................................. Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................. Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca .................................................................

Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre ..........................................................Hon. Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East ............................................................................ Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ...................................................................Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands..................................................Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South...................................................................................... Susan Brice Shuswap ................................................................................

Hon. George Abbott Skeena ............................................................................................... Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ....................................................................Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers.....................................................................Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ..................................................................................Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge................................................... Hon. Gulzar S.

Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .............................................................................Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ........................................................................ Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock................................................................. Hon. Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard .................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview..................................................................Hon. Gary Collins Vancouver-Fraserview .....................................................................

Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings......................................................................... Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington .................................................................... Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway............................................................................ Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara...................................................................... Val J. Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey..................................................... Hon.

Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena ............................................................. Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill ...............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.....................................................................................Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary ......................................................Hon. Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ............................................................... Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi................................................... Hon.

Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .....................................................................................Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Wednesday, November 19, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... .............................................. 8017 Introduction and First Reading of Bills........................................................................................ ......................................... 8017 Health Sector Partnerships Agreement Act (Bill 94) Hon. G.

Bruce Statements (Standing Order 25B) .............................................................................................................................. ............. 8018 National Child Day W. McMahon Addiction services L. Mayencourt Addiction treatment centres for youth H. Bloy Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 8019 B.C. Rail privatization bid process J. MacPhail Hon. J. Reid Export of B.C. wood products to China B. Penner Hon. G. Campbell B.C.

Rail privatization bid process J. Kwan Hon. J. Reid Influenza vaccination V. Anderson Hon. S. Hawkins Petitions...................................................................................................................... ............................................................... 8022 J. Kwan Reports from Committees........................................................................................................ ............................................... 8022 Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills B.

Lekstrom Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... .......................................... 8022 Columbia Basin Trust Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 79) (continued) J. MacPhail Hon. R.

Neufeld Reporting of Bills ............................................................................................................. ........................................................ 8030 Columbia Basin Trust Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 79) Third Reading of Bills......................................................................................................... ..................................................... 8030 Columbia Basin Trust Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 79) Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... .......................................... 8031 BC Hydro Public Power Legacy and Heritage Contract Act (Bill 85) J.

MacPhail Hon. R. Neufeld P. Nettleton

Report and Third Reading of Bills .............................................................................................. ........................................... 8041 BC Hydro Public Power Legacy and Heritage Contract Act (Bill 85) Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... .......................................... 8041 Public Service Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 71) Hon. S.

Santori Reporting of Bills ............................................................................................................. ........................................................ 8042 Public Service Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 71) Third Reading of Bills......................................................................................................... ..................................................... 8042 Public Service Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 71) Second Reading of Bills........................................................................................................ ................................................... 8042 Parks and Protected Areas Statutes Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 84) Hon.

J. Murray J. MacPhail K. Stewart M. Hunter W. Cobb T. Christensen B. Penner R. Hawes D. Jarvis B. Bennett Hon. J. Murray

8017 WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 The House met at 2:03 p.m. Prayers. Introductions by Members Hon. R. Thorpe: I would like to welcome Dick and Barbara Smith from Paul Lake, British Columbia, to the Legislature today. Barbara an d Dick are the parents of the communications manager in my ministry, Gayle Downey. I understand that Gayle's father has got all of the fix-it jobs done, and now it's time for them to return home. Would the House please make them feel very welcome. [1405] Hon. G. Campbell: I have the pleasure today of in- troducing Samira Thomas, who has joined us.

She is a graduate of University Hill Secondary School. She is a recipient of the two-year United World Colleges Scholar- ship worth more than $48,000. At the moment she is at Lester B. Pearson United World College of the Pacific and is pursuing her career goals in journalism and interna- tional relations. I hope the House will make her welcome. Hon. G. Halsey-Brandt: Today in the members' gal- lery I would like to acknowledge a special visitor from Senegal. Please join me in welcoming His Excellency Amadou Diallo, Ambassador of the Republic of Senegal to Canada.

This is the ambassador's first official visit to British Columbia, and I am pleased he has travelled here to discover the many opportunities of our beautiful province. He's accompanied by Mr. David Varty, the honorary consul general of Senegal in Vancouver. Would the House please make them feel welcome. Hon. G. Campbell: As you know, Vancouver Is- land is the second-largest technology sector in this province, and today Victoria is taking

part in showcas- ing the technology companies of Vancouver Island. Joining us today in the House are John Flemming, vice-president of Silicon Valley Bank; Colin How, CEO of How2Share, a digital imaging company; Robert Bennett, CEO of Municipal Software, last night's win- ner of the CSCBC export award; Denzell Doyle, partner of Fullerton Capital Corporation; Dale Gann of the Vancouver Island Technolo gy Park; Timothy Staub, president of Selfor seed technology company; Wolf- gang Scutch, vice-president of Selfor; and Bill Cooke. All of these gentlemen are driving a new sector of the economy forward.

They're cr eating jobs, and they're creating investment opportunities. I hope the House will make them welcome. Hon. J. Reid: It's my pleasure today to introduce the chairs of the regional transportation advisory committees. These committees identify regional trans- portation needs and will be advising me on the trans- portation priorities in their regions.

Joining us today is the chair from the Cariboo, Jim Rustad; from the Fraser Valle y, Dave Kandal; from the Kootenays, Jim Ogilvie; from North Coast, Bill Zemenchik; from North East, Victor Brandl; from South Coast/Mountain, Ron Nelson and his wife, Renee; from Thompson Ok anagan, Chief Bonnie Leo- nard; and from Vancouver Is land, Bill Luchtmeijer. I ask the House please join me in welcoming them. J.

Les: It's my great pleasure this afternoon to wel- come to the House, on behalf of all members of the B.C. government caucus, 85 constituency assistants who are here to observe the Legislature for a couple of days and to meet the staff at the Legislature. They are here from all over the province, and I would ask all members of the House to make them most welcome. Hon. M. Coell: I'd like the House to welcome a cousin of mine, who happens to be my godmother, Marg Hansen and her husband, Cliff. They are here from Exshaw, Alberta. Woul d the House please make them welcome. S.

Orr: Today we have the best bunch of UVic B.C. Young Liberals with us. This is a group of students who…. Just a couple of years ago there was a handful of them, and now their club has grown by hundreds. That's an exaggeration — tens, in the fifties, in the six- ties. These students are the best kids. They are Dallas Hanol — he's the president and the driving force of this group; Tricia Gerrard; Tom Grainger; Alexis Norton; Pardeep Sahota; Lissa Marcell; Neil Evans; Kennan Racelli; Agata Lees; Jessie Basay; Bupubinder Vinning; Robert Boyd; Mycroft Shorts. And that's just a few of them.

Would the House please make them welcome. [1410] Hon. J. van Dongen: Visiting us today in the Legis- lature is Jordan Dawes, a grade 8 student from George Bonner Middle School in Mill Bay. Jordan is job- shadowing today with Jacquie Kendall, the director of corporate services in my ministry. I ask the House to make them both welcome. Mr. Speaker: Hon. members, it's my pleasure to introduce my constituency assistant, Linda Friesen, who is visiting today all the way from Kamloops with her husband, Harvey. Would you please make them both very welcome.

Introduction and First Reading of Bills HEALTH SECTOR PARTNERSHIPS AGREEMENT ACT Hon. G. Bruce presented a message from Her Hon- our the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Health Sector Partnerships Agreement Act. Hon. G. Bruce: I move that Bill 94 be introduced and read a first time now.

8018 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 Motion approved. Hon. G. Bruce: This government has committed to putting patients first in ou r health care system, and among the first to benefit from this bill will be the resi- dents of the Fraser Valley. This legislation, Bill 94, will apply to the long-awaited Abbotsford hospital and cancer centre, currently in the request-for-proposal stage. Bill 94, the Health Sector Partnerships Agreement Act, will encourage the development of new and up- graded health care faciliti es throughout British Colum- bia.

It will open up opportunities for government and health authorities to partner with the private sector to provide British Columbians with the quality health care they both demand and deserve. This bill ensures that the private-public sector part- ners will be able to operate on a level playing field with other health employers, because we are clarifying the rules for P3s in the health sector. This legislation will enable private partners to finance, design and build or renovate health facilities and to deliver non-clinical services according to set standards monitored by gov- ernment.

It opens the way to partnerships that will add capacity to our health care system, creating better fa- cilities for patients while upholding the principles of the Canada Health Act. Priv ate-public partnerships are a win-win situation for our patients, health care pro- viders and the public in British Columbia. I move the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 94 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) NATIONAL CHILD DAY W. McMahon: Tomorrow is National Child Day, a day commemorating the adoption of the U.N. Declara- tion of the Rights of the Child in 1959 and the adoption by Canada of the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child in 1991. This year's theme is A Community Fit for Children, and what an appropriate theme it is. It is a day to pro- mote awareness of the rights of children and youth as citizens and to reaffirm the responsibilities of our lead- ers and communities as advocates for children.

It is a day to acknowledge the important contributions that children and youth, their pare nts, caregivers and fami- lies, and all those working for and with children and youth make in our communities. It is a day to celebrate children and youth as they are today and as we hope they will be for the betterment of future generations.

Most importantly, it is a day to pledge our dedica- tion to making our communities fit for children, to ad- vance the global network for the leaders of our com- munities in promoting children- and youth-friendly communities, because communities fit for children are communities fit for all. There are 142 countries that have ratified the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child.

It provides for the protection of children fr om exploitation and abuse; for the provision of essential health, welfare and educa- tion services; and for the pa rticipation of children and youth in decisions affecting them. [1415] We are indeed fortunate to live in a province and in a country that recognize th e rights of children and youth. We are fortunate to live in a province and in a country that promote the awareness of our children. I ask that my colleagues, our community leaders and our citizens recognize tomorrow for the special day that it is.

But even more importantly, take some time to read a book to a child, throw a ball or help them with their homework. Make an effort to become a positive role model for our children. Life is too short not to. ADDICTION SERVICES L. Mayencourt: It's Addictions Awareness Week here in British Columbia. Addiction is a health and social issue that impacts all aspects of one's life — physical, psychological, emotional and spiritual. One of the battles we have to face as a society is the public perception that addiction is about weakness.

This is dangerous because it inhibits people from openly addressing problems for fear of being judged. Because of this fear, people isolate themselves and sel- dom break free from addictions on their own. Family, friends, loved ones and the wider community must all help. Time, empathy and understanding all contribute to the ability of an individual to recover from addic- tion. The success stories of people who broke free from addiction all mention the support of others. In support of people dealing with addiction, this government has made some dramatic changes in how we deal with these problems.

Many people have a dual diagnosis: addiction and mental illness. We've inte- grated addictions with the health care system as we work with people in a cohesive network of care. The restructuring of the health care system has given peo- ple the ability to have a single point of contact where they can receive holistic care to meet all of their needs and not be forced to navigate through a maze of differ- ent services. Someone with an addiction can make one phone call now and have access to the continuum of services the government is providing.

Those services include mental health services, prevention and educa- tion, sobering centres, sh elters, treatment programs and harm reduction strategies. Our government is fostering strong communities by giving people with addictions the support, time and empathy they need to work their way back to health. I believe we're on the right track. I think we must now allow the wonderful people that carry out these initia- tives to succeed.

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 8019 ADDICTION TREATMENT CENTRES FOR YOUTH H. Bloy: Recently I spoke at a fundraising dinner hosted by Mr. Peter Legge to help establish the Van- couver adolescent recovery centre. I believe the excel- lent work that has been taking place behind the scenes at this organization should be commended. Their ef- forts to bring safe recoveries for young people with substance abuse challenges are truly worthy of the public's support, and this group certainly has mine.

I think we can all agree that drug and alcohol ad- diction is one of the biggest problems facing our young people today. As parents we can do only so much to prepare our children before they are exposed to these dangers. Far too often these dangers start right in our very own homes. It's hard en ough for adults to escape self-destructive lifestyles, and we can only surmise that it's even more difficult for young people.

That's why, when I hear some of the success stories coming out of a similar recovery centre in Alberta, I'm really hopeful that we can have some of that great success right here in British Columbia. I am told that the average North American rate for recovery is around 25 percent, but when I hear what's happened in Alberta, they're putting up numbers closer to 80 percent. I know this team of committed individuals in British Columbia will aim even higher.

I told this group that I was willing to br ing their voice to Victoria to make all of my colleagues aware that we have another success story in the making in British Columbia. [1420] Addiction knows no borders. Fortunately, it is pos- sible to break that deadly cycle. Recovery can be a real- ity, especially when you have organizations like the Vancouver adolescent recovery centre hard at work in our communities. Oral Questions B.C. RAIL PRIVATIZATION BID PROCESS J. MacPhail: Today we learn that the Canadian Pacific Railway has pulled its bid for B.C. Rail, casting a cloud over the whole process.

We've also learned that the only other non–CN bidder, Omnitrax, has ex- pressed concerns about the fairness of the process to the Premier. A report into that process released earlier this week identifies two leaks from B.C. Rail. In one case, data were sent to a party that should not have had access to it. Can the Premier tell this House what was leaked and to whom? Hon. J. Reid: Indeed, we've worked very hard on a process that is fair and equitable and have worked very diligently with the proponen ts. The fairness adviser's report….

The fairness adviser is Charles Rivers Associ- ates, which is a very reputable firm, and that firm has stated that the process established and implemented by the province, the evaluation committee and its advisers was fair and impartial. The information they investi- gated within this — because they were concerned about being absolutely concise and drilling down and making sure that they could bring forward those con- clusions — was not substantive and was not harmful to the process. Mr. Speaker: Leader of the Opposition has a sup- plementary question. J.

MacPhail: Well, the minister didn't answer my question, and certainly the Premier didn't rise to an- swer my question. Let me tell what the report says. The report on the process, an interim report where the minister admits the person still has to talk to the proponents, says only that the lawyers verified that the leak was retrieved and destroyed by those who had access to it. It doesn't say what was leaked and to whom it was leaked. From the start this process has b een called into question by bidders, by B.C. Rail customers and by British Colum- bians who depend on the line.

Now, can the Premier provide assurances that the process was fair when his own minister won't come clean on the details of this leak? If the leak was to one proponent, were the other proponents advised imme- diately, or did the government simply think this matter could be swept under the carpet? To the Premier: were the other proponents told what was leaked, and who received the information? Hon. J. Reid: The whole purpose of the fairness adviser's report is to investigate the concerns the mem- ber has said, not to perpetuate those concerns.

The fairness adviser's report investigated those concerns, and the conclusion that was arrived at was that the process was not compromised and that everyone in- volved was treated fairly and equitably. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please, hon. members. The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplementary. J. MacPhail: In fact, that's not what the report says. It's not what the report says on the second leak at all. In fact, what it says is…. I'll read it: "In the second case, we have been informed that the error was quickly iden- tified.

We have documented statements from the attor- neys involved verifying that the data were retrieved or destroyed by those who had access to it." It doesn't say who had access to it or whether they then distributed all that leaked information to all the proponents. So unless the Premier has a giant magnet, some kind of secret memory-erasing device, asking for the information back and destroying it does not fix the problem. Two of the major bidders for B.C. Rail are now saying the whole process was unfair. They say that CN has already been given the go-ahead, despite

8020 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 the minister's repeated denials. The Premier needs to face reality. The deal stinks…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. J. MacPhail: The little support it had is vanishing by the hour. Will he at least stand up and give the House assurance that the second leak wasn't to CN Rail? [1425] Hon. J. Reid: The whole purpose of the fairness adviser's report is to make sure that all three propo- nents were treated fairly, were treated equitably and received the same information at the same time.

It was verified by the fairness advi ser that, indeed, that was the case. There is no need to be able to repeat problems or concerns. What's importan t is the conclusion. It was investigated, and the conclusion was that it was fair to all the proponents. EXPORT OF B.C. WOOD PRODUCTS TO CHINA B. Penner: Twelve days ago a number of unelected and unaccountable environm ental groups launched a boycott campaign in China in a deliberate attempt to undermine this government's efforts to open up new markets for B.C. wood prod ucts and find new job op- portunities for B.C. workers.

I'm appalled that all of the people vying for this week end's NDP leadership vote came cap in hand, looking for support, when a number of these same extreme en vironmental groups spon- sored an NDP leadership debate in October. Despite these attempts to kill jobs, the Premier has been working hard to expand economic opportunities for our province in China. Can the Premier tell us the result of his efforts? Hon. G. Campbell: I can tell you the results of a number of people's efforts, including our Forest Inno- vation Investment staff's work.

The Chinese Ministry of Construction has just released a brand-new national building code, and the critical thing about this building code is that for the first time ever China's building code now provides for construction of wood-frame houses. If I can just put that in context. The Forest Innova- tion Investment staff has worked very hard with the technicians in China. The establishment of this new national building code allows them to build local building codes, which will allow us to build wood- frame homes.

As you may know, the Shanghai Jin Qiao Group has agreed to build 200 new wood-frame homes, five new wood-frame retail outlets over the next year. That's a 40 percent increase in what was used in the past. Just to put this in context for the House, in China there are ten million new homes built each year. We now can access those and use wood products to create those homes in a flexible and environmentally sound way that meets the needs of China's homeowners as well as…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, hon. members. B.C. RAIL PRIVATIZATION BID PROCESS J.

Kwan: I don't know what planet this Minister of Transportation is living on. Mayors from Fort St. James to Mackenzie to 100 Mile House say that the plan to privatize… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please, hon. members. Let's hear the question. J. Kwan: …B.C. Rail is bad news for their commu- nities. Those who supported the deal are now saying that they've been kept in the dark about the details and the impact on their economies. Let me quote Mayor Donna Barnett of 100 Mile House: "I was probably a supporter of this as long as it was transparent. Now I don't feel so comfortable." Face it, minister.

The Premier asked you to break one of his central election commitments, and you botched it. Now the Premier and every Liberal MLA from the north are feeling the heat. Can the minister explain why CN gets prefer ential treatment, but the communities affected are left in the dark? Hon. J. Reid: In fact, the mayor from Prince George was on a radio show this morning saying that he agrees with the process an d believes that what we're doing is seeking the good of the people of the north. Further to the release of… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. [1430] Hon. J.

Reid: …information, the sharing of infor- mation and the need to balance off that information, I'd just like to quote from the fairness adviser's report, who also addresses this: "While the desire to share more detailed information with key constituents throughout the process is understandable, the confi- dentiality agreement served a necessary purpose by ensuring that all of the pr oponents had the same in- formation and that none of the proponents had the opportunity to influence the evaluation committee through the media or by negotiating in public." Mr.

Speaker: The member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant has a supplementary question. Interjections.

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 8021 Mr. Speaker: Order, please. J. Kwan: The Prince George council passed a reso- lution asking for a two-year moratorium to hold up the sale and privatization of B.C. Rail. UBCM passed a unanimous resolution asking the government not to break its commitment by selling B.C. Rail. This minister is not facing reality. Let's be clear. The process that has led to the sale of B.C. Rail is under a serious cloud. Supporters are now saying the government should reconsider. Over 32,000 northerners signed a petition saying stop the sale.

There's no benefit to the shippers; there's no benefit to the communities. The minister's time in cabinet is short, I know. But why doesn't she go out…? Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Hon. members, let us hear the ques- tion, please. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Question. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. J. Kwan: Why doesn't the minister go out with a bang, Mr. Speaker? She can do that. She can do that to make up for her shortcomings, for all of the files she has botched — admit that it is a broken promise and that she is prepared to kill the B.C.

Rail privatization deal. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please, hon. members. Let us hear…. Hon. J. Reid: I'm interpreting that the question was about a concern with regard to sharing of information with communities, which I agree has been a process with which we have tried to find a balance. Once again I'd like to read a quote from the fairness adviser's re- port: "While the absence of detailed information may have increased rumourmongering and speculation by the public and the media…" Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon. J.

Reid: "…we found that the evaluation committee struck an appropriate balance between shar- ing information with those who needed to know and protecting the confidentiality of the participants…" Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. J. Reid: "…and ensuring the neutrality of the process." Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. INFLUENZA VACCINATION V. Anderson: My question is to the Minister of Health Planning. A large number of cases of flu have already hit the people in our province, and health offi- cials are warning that the flu of this season will be par- ticularly serious.

Research shows that the flu shot is one of the best ways to prevent illness during this sea- son. However, last year statistics showed that 56 per- cent of health care workers did not get the flu vaccine. Can the Minister of Health Pl anning explain to all Brit- ish Columbians why getting th e influenza vaccine is so important for each of them? Hon. S. Hawkins: The flu season has arrived early this year, and it appears that it's arrived with a venge- ance.

It usually runs from about December to March or April every year, but you can see already that we're seeing the impact of the flu on kids in school and cer- tainly on the elderly. It's estimated that about 1.5 bil- lion workdays are lost every year across Canada be- cause of the flu, and that lo ss of productivity is esti- mated to be around $1 billion. Flu is serious stuff. It can be deadly. One in six of us will get sick every year from the flu. About 1,400 people die in our province every year because of the flu and pneumonia, and most of them are over the age of 65 years.

Evidence tells us that the most effective way of reducing the number of outbreaks is to get immunized. It's impor- tant to note that it's particularly important for health care workers to get immunized, because not only.… [1435] Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. S. Hawkins: We think it's…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

8022 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 Hon. S. Hawkins: We think it's really important for health care workers to not only protect themselves and their families but also to…. Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Hon. S. Hawkins: We think it's particularly impor- tant for health care workers… Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Would the Leader of the Opposition please come to order. Hon. S. Hawkins: …because it protects not only themselves and their families, but it also protects the vulnerable patients and th e elderly that they work with. I do encourage everyone to get the flu.

I know lots of members…. Interjections. Hon. S. Hawkins: Flu shot. Flu shot. Somebody might want to get the flu, but it's particularly impor- tant to get the flu shot. Get your vaccination, because a n o u n c e o f p r e v e n t i o n i n t h i s c a s e i s a s s i m p l e a s a shot in the arm. Thanks. [End of question period.] Petitions J. Kwan: I rise to table a petition. This petition is from Trail, Fruitvale, Montrose and Rossland. It's ask- ing the government to keep its hands off the Columbia Basin Trust. It's signed by 137 individuals who do not support Bill 79. Reports from Committees B.

Lekstrom: I have the honour to present the re- port of the Select Standing Committee on Parliamen- tary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills. I would move that the report be read and received. Motion approved. Law Clerk: "November 19, 2003: "Your Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills begs leave to report as follows: one, that the pre- amble to Bill Pr410, intitu led Canadian Pentecostal Seminary Act, has been proved and the committee rec- ommends that the bill proceed to second reading; two, that the

preamble to Bill Pr411, intituled Richrock Mines Ltd. (N.P.L.) (Corporate Restoration) Act, 2003, has been proved, and the committee recommends that the bill proceed to second reading. "All of which is respectfully submitted. B. Lekstrom, Chair." B. Lekstrom: I ask leave of the House to permit the moving of a motion to adopt the report. Leave granted. B. Lekstrom: With that, I would move the adoption of the report. Motion approved. Bills Pr410 and Pr411 ordered to be placed on or- ders of the day for second re ading at the next sitting of the House after today. Orders of the Day Hon. G.

Collins: I call Committee of the Whole for consideration of Bill 79. [1440-1450] Committee of the Whole House COLUMBIA BASIN TRUST AMENDMENT ACT, 2003 (continued) The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 79; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 2:50 p.m. On

section 3 (continued). J. MacPhail:

Section 3 sets remuneration for the board members of the Columbia Basin Trust. I'm won- dering what problem the minister is trying to fix here. Hon. R. Neufeld: We have a set standard of remu- neration for different boards in the province. It comes through board resourcing. As I said yesterday in the discussions, the folks that remain on the Columbia Basin Trust board will remain with the same remunera- tion they have today, even if there happens to be a change, so we're not going to affect the folks that will carry on.

What will happen is that with people who are appointed from here forward, the decision will be m ade on what leve l they wi l l be pa id . It ha s not be en made yet, but it will be made later on. J. MacPhail: I'm wondering whether there will be any differential treatment between those that are ap- pointed by the government and those that aren't ap- pointed by the government. Hon. R. Neufeld: No. J. MacPhail: The reason why I ask that question, Mr. Chair, is because I am very concerned about differ- ential treatment of board members.

We're hearing more and more from the communities affected by this legis- lation about their concerns, and many of them are ex-

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 8023 pressing concern about the na ture of the appointments this government is going to make. Here's the reason why. It just came to our attention last night. Yesterday the minister t ook great umbrage that we o n t h i s s i d e w o u l d s u g g e s t t h a t s o m e o f t h e g o v e r n - ment appointees to the Columbia Basin Trust also have an allegiance to the Liberal Party, for instance, and in particular to the member for Nelson-Creston.

The min- ister railed on about how the previous government appointed persons with a political past, and he conven- iently forgot the promise he made during the election to appoint only on merit. That's why I'm curious about this under this

section of remuneration, because during the election the Liberal government promised to depoliticize the appointment process. The minister also claimed that the process that the board resourcing and development office goes through ensures that only high-quality persons are appointed. Then his staff was helpful enough to direct us to the board resourcing and development office website, where all those qualifications are laid out for all to see how impartial this whole process is. Let's look at that in th e context of an appointment this minister made — Ben Arcuri. Mr.

Arcuri was ap- pointed by the government to the board of the Colum- bia Basin Trust on July 24 of this year, and I have the order-in-council. It's signed by the Minister of Energy and Mines. I also have a copy of the Crown corporation declaration and profile. It's also here, and it says that all appointees to the Crown corporations are to fill out this form in order that their candidacy is properly as- sessed. [1455] I think this Legislature and the good folks of the Columbia basin would be most interested to know how Mr. Arcuri answered question 21.

Let me read question 21 into the record: "General ly, are you aware of any fact or matters which, if publicly disclosed, could cause the government embarrassment or hinder your per- formance of your duties as a board member?" Remem- ber, Mr. Arcuri was appointed by this minister in July of this year. Hon. R. Neufeld: I want to reassure her again that there will be no difference in the pay

schedule for the people of the Columbia Basin Trust. The determination will be made in the near future of what that pay sched- ule will be. Board resourcing has a huge list of people that have been recommended from across the province. In fact, people who would like to sit on boards and commissions even put their own names forward, all on their own. Boards and commissions goes through those recommendations and through those names and picks out people they feel should be qualified to sit on boards. As far as making public the declarations each one of them makes, I believe that is confidential. J.

MacPhail: Well, the minister yesterday assured us that people would be appointed on merit. Today we're talking about how we're going to appoint these people. I'm asking specific questions about how Mr. Ben Arcuri meets those qualifications. I asked a very specific question. Let me ask another specific question about the questionnaire that has to be filled out. I don't know why this has to be co nfidential. I have no idea why this is confidential. It's the first time we've heard that these profiles are confidential. Let me ask how Mr. Arcuri answered question 18.

"In your employment, business or personal affairs, have you…(

f) been in- volved in any issue or controversy that has gone or is likely to go to litigation or public review?" How did that question get answered by Mr. Arcuri before July of last year? Hon. R. Neufeld: If I omitted the word "merit," I want to put it in the discussion now. They are ap- pointed on merit. They ar e folks whose names are put forward, and in some cases people put their own names forward. It is on merit. I have no idea how this gentleman signed the conflict-of-interest papers. I don't have that in front of me. I haven't for any of them.

That's what the boards an d commissions secretariat is to do when they recommend folks to us to put on the boards. The Chair: I just want to remind the Leader of the Opposition that we are dealing with

section 3. Some of the line of questioning you're proceeding down has been well canvassed in

section 2 — believe me, well canvassed. Just a reminder that we're dealing with sec- tion 3, the directors' remuneration. I ask her to confine her remarks to the remuneration. J. MacPhail: Mr. Chair, I appreciate the guidance. We are getting questions fr om the community, I must tell you, about how this particular person can receive any money from the government, so it is under

section 3. I'll make my point in a minute, Mr. Chair. You'll see where I'm going on this. The reason why I ask these questions is because I'm sure the minister is well aware — and if he isn't, he shouldn't be in his job — that Mr. Arcuri was, at the time of his appointment, being investigated for theft. It seems that Mr. Arcuri and hi s friend Mr. Rushton, also a close ally of the member for Nelson-Creston, decided to remove a recall petition from a private business without the knowledge or pe rmission of the recall can- vasser.

They took the petiti on and hustled themselves down to the member for Nelson-Creston's office to photocopy it. In reaction to this appalling lack of judgment and blatant partisanship on behalf of the member for Nelson-Creston by Mr. Arcuri, the Attor- ney General appointed a special prosecutor. I'm sur- prised the member for Nelson-Creston hasn't raised these matters in the Legislature. [1500] That special prosecutor reported back to the Attor- ney General on October 3. He re's the report.

This is what he wrote: "The next consideration is whether, in the peculiar circumstances of this case, it c a n b e s a i d t h a t p r o p e r t y was taken fraudulently and with the colour of right. I am

8024 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 satisfied that the evidence could establish that the removal of the documents was done knowing that the canvasser has a possessory claim to them and that it should have occurred to Arcuri and Rushton that they were depriving that canvasser of property or a special property interest in the documents." In other words, the evidence points to them fraudu- lently removing the documents.

The special prosecutor ne xt addresses the issue of "colour of right," and concludes — and I quote again from the special prosecutor's report that was not issued until October of this year, several months after this minister appointed Mr. Arcuri: "It is important to bear in mind that the belief in a state of facts must only be honest. It is not required that the facts be correct.

All of the circumstances point to an inescapable inference that in this case the two men were acting under an honest, although perhaps mistaken, belief in a state of facts which, if true, would justify their removal of these documents." There we have the quality of candidate that the board resourcing and development office and this minister think is appropriate to oversee millions of dollars of public funds — willing to commit fraud and too stupid to know when they are. A question about Mr. Ar curi. The minister ap- pointed Mr.

Arcuri while he was under investigation for taking the recall petition from the recall proponent, taking it down to the office of the member for Nelson- Creston. Under investigation, this minister appointed him to the board of the Columbia Basin Trust. Which of the two demonstrated skills does the minister think Mr. Arcuri has that fit the skills matrix for board members? Hon. R. Neufeld: The

section we're dealing with deals with remuneration for directors, not to bring forward what some people may think are some kind of charges. I would recommend to the member, if she is serious about this — and we should take it seriously — that she should put it in writ ing and send it to me or to board resourcing, and we'll de al with it. I'm not about to stand here and talk about issues that probably have already been dealt with or that I'm not knowledgable about. If you want to put it in writing, put it in writing and send it to the appropriate authority. J.

MacPhail: It went to the appropriate authority — a special prosecutor. It went to the special prosecutor, and while this appointee made by this minister was under a special prosecutor's investigation, the minister appointed him to the board of the Columbia Basin Trust. Is that what the Columbia basin communities have to look forward to — Victoria now in charge, ap- pointing their friends, people who take recall petitions and are under special prosec utor's review? This minis- ter thinks that's meritorious? Well, let me ask a question.

When a person is under investigation by a special prosecutor, does that qualify him or her to be meritorious for appointment to the board? The minister sitting right behind the Minister of Energy and Mines got removed from his office because he was under investigation. Why is it that this minister can appoint to a board people who are under investiga- tion? Hon. R. Neufeld: If she has a serious issue that she wants to bring forward, then put it in writing and bring it forward. We're talking about remuneration to board directors. Interjection. Hon. R. Neufeld: No, it's not what I'd like to be.

It's actually what's in the act. The member has been in this House long enough to know that we should be talking about the

section that's here. In fact, I would hope that we start dealing with this section. [1505] Interjection. Hon. R. Neufeld: I t m a y s e e m f u n n y t o y o u . Y o u may want to laugh, and you may want to do all the little antics that you want to do and your dancey, dancey dance. That's fine. J. MacPhail: Afraid? Afraid? Hon. R. Neufeld: I'm not one bit afraid of you. J. MacPhail: Afraid to answer the questions? Hon. R. Neufeld: No, I'm not afraid to answer the question. The Chair: Member, let's hear the minister. Hon. R. Neufeld: I think I've answered the ques- tion fully.

I've told you that if you have a serious con- cern, put it in writing and se nd it, and let's get on with dealing with what's in the bill. Interjections. The Chair: Leader of the Opposition, I want to re- mind you again that we are dealing with

section 3 un- der remuneration. I'd like you to get back to that, please. J. MacPhail: Thank you. I appreciate that direction. I'm, frankly, asking questions that have come from Nelson-Creston, which the member for Nelson-Creston won't get up and ask. They sent this information to us last night saying: "Is Ben Arcuri going to get money from this government?" Th at was the question, Mr. Chair. The minister will not answer the questions. How humiliating for him.

His whole argument about the Columbia Basin Trust appointees made by his gov- ernment being on the basis of merit has been blown out of the water, and he wants me to send a letter. Well, that will serve the member for Nelson-Creston and his constituents extremely well — the minister's whole

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 8025 argument about appointments of merit blown out of the water. He appoints someone who's under investi- gation, and he won't stand up and justify it. He won't stand up and defend it. He cowers. He cowers away from it and says that I should write a letter. Frankly, the letter's been written. The special prosecutor's report is in, and the member for Nelson-Creston refuses to stand up and ask these questions.

Section 3 approved. On

section 4. J. MacPhail: Now, here's an interesting section. Here's a very interesting section.

Section 4 repeals the requirement of the board to appoint advisory commit- tees. Why? Hon. R. Neufeld: Actually, this repeals that, but what the board can do is appoint advisory committees as they deem necessary from time to time for whatever issues they want to appoint an advisory committee for. I guess we're a little different than the NDP. We don't think we…. J. MacPhail: Yeah. You bet. Hon. R. Neufeld: Yeah, we are. We don't think we have to tell the board to appoint an advisory commit- tee.

Actually, the board will be wise enough — the peo- ple that you appoint from the basin — that if they want to have an advisory committee, they can go out and ap- point an advisory committee to get all the information they want. They actually have the knowledge, the abil- ity. There are people there…. Interjection. Hon. R. Neufeld: You know, you can slander who- ever you want. Interjections. Hon. R. Neufeld: Maybe you should go out in the hallway and do that. I would bet you wouldn't. Interjections. The Chair: Order, please. Order, please. Through the Chair, please. The minister has the floor. Hon. R.

Neufeld: Again, the folks on the board know when they need an advisory committee and will be able to actually appoint, at any given time, any type of advisory committee that they deem necessary to have appointed — not that Victoria deems necessary. J. MacPhail: Who would believe the minister on that? There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that there will be any advisory committees at all. He's just repealed the legislation that appoints advisory commit- tees.

In fact, I could see people — given the kind of appointees he's making — like Ben Arcuri, who steals stuff and runs down to the Nelson-Creston office to photocopy stuff he's just stolen…. I could see him say- ing: "You can't have an advisory committee." Hon. R. Neufeld: Point of order. Mr. Chair, we went through this yesterday when the other member of the opposition was actually referring to members of the board from day one as stooges. Really, that's not cor- rect. Talking about stealing in here and those kind of things and trying to impu gn someone's reputation, I think, is a bit unfair.

We sh ould be actually, I think, thankful for those board members that want to spend their time on these boards for the benefit of people in the region. I'd rather not see that kind of language. I don't think that does anything for anyone here. [1510] The Chair: I thank you for that, member. We are now dealing with

section 4. J. MacPhail: Mr. Chair, clearly that was not a point of order. I hear catcalls from the Minister of Sustainable Resource Management that are just as bad. No one calls him to order. No one does. It is unbelievable how…. I'd hate to see this gov- ernment actually face an oppo sition that's larger than two. They're quivering; they're fearful. They can't stand to actually face up to their responsibilities with just two of us. They have to stand up and change the agenda. It is embarrassing. Gosh forbid that they actually have more than two. This poor minister just quivering…. The Chair: Member, let's get back to

section 4, please. J. MacPhail: I was asking him a question about

section 4. I asked him about advisory committees. In fact, I said that people like Mr. Arcuri, who wouldn't want any advisory committees, could actually hold up the legislation and say they're not allowed. They used to be allowed, but they're removed now. They're not allowed. Sure, he could make that argument. So let me ask the minister: what advisory committees did exist, and what did they do that he's now outlawing? Hon. R. Neufeld: First off, one member of a board of 12 cannot actually dominate the board and tell them exactly what they should do and shouldn't do.

What we're saying is that the Columbia Basin Trust board is wise enough, and I do have some faith…. I have lots of faith in those people that sit on all those boards and commissions, unlike the Leader of the Opposition who didn't have any faith, I gues s, in any of the boards and commissions that she was party to appointing. I guess she didn't have any faith in anyone because what she wanted to do was write in absolute prescriptive lan- guage exactly what they should do, what they shouldn't do, when they can come and when they can go.

8026 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 Actually, what we're trying to do here is allow the board to do the things that they should be doing for the region. Unfortunately, if the Leader of the Opposition doesn't have trust in people, I'm sorry. I have trust in those 12 individuals that will be appointed at the end of the day, and I want to thank them very much pub- licly. The Leader of the Opposition — all she wants to do is berate all of them.

A ll 12, I guess, she would say wouldn't be able to do a job, wouldn't be able to figure out when they should have a committee and when they shouldn't have a committee. What we're saying is that the board will make that deci sion on their own, and I think that's giving some freedom to the board to decide what destiny they want for their board that's in the Columbia basin. J. MacPhail: Mr. Chair, you have rightly asked me to ask relevant questions. Could the minister answer my question, please. Hon. R. Neufeld: I already did. J. MacPhail: No, he didn't.

I asked: what are the advisory committees that th e minister is now outlaw- ing? Hon. R. Neufeld: We're not outlawing. The lan- guage that's used is absolutely unbelievable. We're not outlawing. What we're saying to the board is: "You can actually use your own know ledge, your own thought processes, your own abilities. You 12 individuals, use your own ability to run this board as best you can for the benefit of the people of Columbia basin." We're not telling them exactly how they should appoint those committees or whether they should have committees or not have committees.

I think they're capable on their own of having committees. The member can read

section 13 that's being re- pealed as well as I can. If she wants to read it, that's what she should do. What we're doing is trusting in the people that are appointed from the basin, all 12 indi- viduals from the basin, to re present the interests of the people from the basin. J. MacPhail: Could the minister please answer my question? Hon. R. Neufeld: I already did. If she wants to read

section 13, read it. [1515] J. MacPhail: What are the advisory committees that are established now, and what are they doing? Hon. R. Neufeld: Again, I don't know exactly what committees the board has working. Interjection. Hon. R. Neufeld: Well, I guess I could understand why the Leader of the Opposition would sit over there and make those kinds of faces and those kinds of antics about this. When she was in government, it was pre- scriptive. They wanted to know what everybody was doing at every part of the day — to actually tell them what to do. That's the old socialist way of moving for- ward.

We're not doing that. Actually, we're not telling the board they have to dissolv e any committees. If they want to have ten committees, or two or one, they can have those. We're not telling them not to have them. We're giving them the freedom of having exactly what they think they need in their best interest. If that isn't a good enough response for the member…. I'm not sure, Mr. Chair. We should move on to the next section. J. MacPhail: How embarrassing for the minister. No wonder he didn't want to answer my question. He couldn't.

Here he is repealing, outlawing advisory committees that come from the community, are repre- senting the community's interests, are appointed by the community, and he doesn't even know what he's re- pealing. Shame on him. Hon. R. Neufeld: I mean, what she just said is ri- diculous. I think everybody knows that, except people that would be of the same po litical persuasion as her, but maybe even some of those wouldn't. I don't know what part of this the member doesn't get; I can't figure it out.

We're not saying that they have to get rid of the committees they have, but what we're not telling them is that they have to form committees. It's actually quite innovative, quite new. It's a dif- ferent process. We actually trust people. You actually put people on boards, and you expect them to use their ability and their knowledge. And we trust them. I know that's difficult for yo u to understand, but that's the way we look at it.

I trust that the Columbia Basin Trust board — the 12 members, when this bill finally goes through — will actually make good decisions on behalf of the people from the Columbia Basin Trust without some person from Victoria telling them, like the last government: "Thou shalt have this committee. Thou shalt have that committee. Thou shalt do this. Thou shalt do that." No, we're not doing that. We're actually depending on those people to look after the best interests of people in the Columbia basin. [1520] J.

MacPhail: I notice that the member for Nelson- Creston isn't applauding, be cause he knows the minis- ter doesn't even know what he's talking about. The advisory committees were established by community consultation an d were asked for by the community. Now the minister is outlawing them.

Section 4 approved on the following division: YEAS — 58 Coell Hogg Halsey-Brandt

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 8027 Hawkins Whittred Cheema J. Reid Bruce Santori van Dongen Barisoff Wilson Lee Thorpe Hagen Murray Plant Clark Bond de Jong Nebbeling Stephens Abbott Neufeld Chong Penner Jarvis Anderson Orr Brenzinger Bell Long Chutter Mayencourt Trumper Johnston Bennett R. Stewart Christensen Krueger Bray Les Locke Bhullar Wong Bloy Suffredine MacKay Cobb K. Stewart Visser Lekstrom Brice Sultan Hamilton Hawes Manhas Hunter NAYS — 3 Nettleton MacPhail Kwan [1525] Hon. R. Neufeld: I move the amendment standing in my name on the order paper. [SECTION 4.1, by adding the following section: 4.1

Section 14 (2) is repealed.] On

section 4.1. J. MacPhail: The ministry explanation is that the trust has always been a government corporation and that the act, in its current form, leaves the impression that it was not at some time. Will the minister confirm that the Financial Administ ration Act and the Budget Transparency and Accountab ility Act will continue to apply to the Columbia Basin Trust? Hon. R. Neufeld: Yes. Sections 4.1 and 5 approved. On

section 6. J. MacPhail: Here's another very troubling section. This

section repeals the conflict-of-interest provisions of the act. Isn't it interesting, in context of what the quality of their appointees has been already, that they're repealing the conflict-of-interest provisions in the act? I guess the minister may stand up and say: "Well, we've got the board resourcing and develop- ment office." Well, we've seen the quality of the job that office does. We've seen that in the context of Ben Ar- curi. We've seen how effective they've been in that area. Will the minister actually table the board resourc- ing and development office guidelines? Hon. R.

Neufeld: They're on the website, and I be- lieve the website address was given to your office yes- terday or today. J. MacPhail: Has the minister read the guidelines? Hon. R. Neufeld: Yes, I have. [1530] J. MacPhail: Good. Then how do the board resourc- ing and development office guidelines differ from those in the act that he's repealing? Hon. R. Neufeld: There are extensive conflict-of- i n t e r e s t g u i d e l i n e s t h a t h a v e t o b e s i g n e d a t b o a r d r e - sourcing. Along with that, the board has extensive dec- larations as to conflict of interest on their own, which people have to sign. J.

MacPhail: I have heard from people, given the Ben Arcuri appointment — the fact that he's a very close Liberal Party organizer for the member for Nelson-Creston and his activities on behalf of the member for Nelson-Creston against the proponents of recall — that they're very concerned about the removal of the statutory requirement for declarations of conflict of interest.

The reason why they're very worried about this — this was expressed to me this morning — is that one of the values of having conflict-of-interest guide- lines in public documents like the Columbia Basin Trust Act is that they're readily available for anyone to see. In fact, they couldn't be changed unless there was debate in the Legislature. Now they're gone. Why is it, when I ask the minister for the guide- lines…? Of course, he referred me to the website, and that's great. That's nice. I'm sure the people of Nelson- Creston and Cranbrook will appreciate that.

But why not make the conflict-of-interest provisions open and readily available? Hon. R. Neufeld: Again, the conflict-of-interest guide- lines are on the board resourcing and development office's government public website, so they're there. The website address has been given to the member's office. J. MacPhail: Well, it was people who telephoned me who said that they're absolutely dismayed, given the context of the appointment of Ben Arcuri and the fact that the minister refuses to disclose the information pro- vided under the board resourcing and development of- fice profile.

He refused to disclose it — that the informa- tion is secret. There will be absolutely no public declara- tion of conflict of interest, and that's a step backward. [1535] Hon. R. Neufeld: Again, through board resourcing the conflict-of-interest guidelines are not made public. They are filled out. Now, the trust still has in its policy

8028 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 manual and will continue to have in its policy manual, as I understand, conflict-of-interest guidelines that must be signed. I'd be surprised if the trust would re- lease all of that information to the public, and in fact we will find that out for you. My staff doesn't know whether they would make that public if people actually filled out conflict-of-interest forms, but I wouldn't think they would. But I could stand corrected on that. J. MacPhail: Well, the minister has no idea whether they do or not.

My information is that they do release them, and that's why they're in the act, and that's why people are so upset about this . Why is it that the board resourcing and development office keeps this informa- tion secret? Hon. R. Neufeld: They don't keep it secret. They keep it confidential, and probably for good reason. In any event, obviously the Leader of the Opposition doesn't know either, because she's not definite about it, so she's just fishing for something.

Our staff is listening, and we'll find out from the Columbia Basin Trust whether they put on the website the conflict-of-interest papers that are filled out by people that sit on the board. It would be interesting, maybe, to read some of that information if it is public, going back to when that mem- ber was part of a government that appointed members to the board, to find out just exactly where the conflicts were at that time — or perceived conflicts, or somebody wants to actually make up a story about perceived con- flicts. We'll find that answer for the member. J. MacPhail: I'm surprised the minister doesn't….

He's repealing a

section of the legislation, and he doesn't even know why he's repealing a

section of the legislation. He is completely and poorly informed about why he's even doing this. Now, that would be — what? — the third, fourth, maybe fifth

section that he has no idea why he's doing what he's doing. Tell me: where is it in the board resourcing and development office guidelines that the minister has said that he's read? Where does it say that this informa- tion is confidential? I can't find it. Hon. R. Neufeld: Again, I want to say to the mem- ber that, yes, we know why we're repealing sections. The difficulty is that the member opposite doesn't want to accept, in some cases, the reasons for repealing some of the sections and actually eliminating some of the needless requirements on diffe rent boards so that they can operate in today's world. What I'm saying today is that

part 3 is repealed because we already go through a process at board re- sourcing on conflict of interest. I know that. I want to put that on the record so you understand that. I want to say that to you again. I think I've said it six or seven times now. I also want to say that the board has a pol- icy of conflict-of-interest guidelines internally that they ask their board members to fill out. What I didn't qualify, and what I can't until I get that information, is one small part of that. I understand fully what I'm doing; we understand fully what we're putting forward.

I don't know whether the Columbia Basin Trust puts on the website publicly the conflict-of- interest papers that are signed by people that are on the board. I don't know that. I can't say yes or no. That's the

part I don't know. The rest of it I know quite well. You may not think so, but I do. J. MacPhail: Well, in fact, Mr. Chair, he's got one thing wrong: that the boar d resourcing and develop- ment office forms are filled out on a confidentiality basis. That's not true. Let me read into the record what it says: "The personal information requested on this form is collected under the authority of and used for the purposes of administering a variety of statutes which authorize the appointment of individuals to government's agencies, boards and commissions.

Information on the authority for a specific appointment is available on request. This profile and declaration will be kept for a minimum of one year." That doesn't say it's confidential. Oops. Hon. R. Neufeld: It is confidential. [1540] J. MacPhail: Well, then it's not by authority that it's confidential, because the form to which the minister referred me on the website I just read into the record. Yeah, read No. 22 on the form. Hon. R. Neufeld: Yes, in fact, I'm going to read into the record No. 22 that's in the profile. I'll read part of 22.

It says: "I also consent to the dis- closure of my personal inform ation to such persons or organizations when such disclosure is necessary to evaluate my suitability for appointment to a British Columbia public agency." That's what it says. J. MacPhail: Right. It's a disclosure, not a confiden- tiality statement. It's a di sclosure statement, and then the whole form is summarized. That's not a statement to agree to confidentiality.

That's a statement to agree to disclosure, and then the entire form is subject to this: "The personal information requested on this form is collected under the authority of and used for the purposes of administering a variety of statutes which authorize the appointment of individuals to government's agencies, boards and commissions. Information on the authority for a specific appointment is available on request. This Profile and Declaration will be kept for a minimum of one year." Boy, isn't it interesting?

The most open and ac- countable government interprets that as a confidential- ity agreement and shuts down information. That's the form he referred me to, an d he's repealing legislation that guarantees conflict-of-interest reporting. Hon. R. Neufeld: Again, she's wrong. What we're saying and what I've said here is that that information is kept confidential. If…. J. MacPhail: You have no right, no authority to do that.

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 8029 Hon. R. Neufeld: No. If you want to request it and put in writing some of the things that you said earlier, put it in writing and make that request. Secondly, the Columbia Basin Trust has its own guidelines in regard to conflict of interest further to what's there with board resourcing. That stays in place. They have that in their gu idelines, and they will con- tinue to get that information. The board itself will have that information on each in dividual so that they can actually have a read of it. J. MacPhail: I'm requesting right now, as is my right in this chamber, for the minister to release the profile of Mr. Ben Arcuri.

Section 6 approved on the following division: [1545-1550] YEAS — 58 Falcon Coell Halsey-Brandt Hawkins Whittred Cheema J. Reid Bruce Santori van Dongen Barisoff Wilson Lee Hagen Murray Plant Clark Bond Nebbeling Stephens Abbott Neufeld Chong Penner Jarvis Anderson Orr Nuraney Brenzinger Bell Long Chutter Mayencourt Trumper Johnston Bennett R. Stewart Christensen Krueger McMahon Bray Les Locke Bhullar Wong Bloy Suffredine MacKay Cobb K. Stewart Visser Lekstrom Brice Sultan Hamilton Hawes Manhas Hunter NAYS — 2 Nettleton MacPhail

Section 7 approved. On

section 8. [1555] J. MacPhail:

Section 8 repeals the provision requir- ing the submitting of an an nual report, including au- dited financial statements, to the minister. My question is: what assurance is there that an annual report will continue to be made publicly available? Hon. R. Neufeld: The requirement to provide this information actually is unde r the Budget Transparency and Accountability Act and the Financial Information Act, so they will be required.

Section 8 approved. On

section 9. J. MacPhail: This

section amends

section 31(3) of the act, and it takes out the reference to the Columbia Power Corporation with respect to taxes. Why? Hon. R. Neufeld: It's a permissive

section to ex- empt Crown corporations from tax. If the Columbia Basin Trust owns part of it, they would be exempt from taxes and pay something similar to what B.C. Hydro pays. J. MacPhail: It's the reference to Columbia Power Corporation. I'm sorry; I didn't understand the refer- ence to the Columbia Basin Trust. Hon. R. Neufeld: As we're dealing with this piece of legislation….

We have been in discussions with the Columbia Basin Trust and Columbia Power Corpora- tion in amalgamating those two units to actually still provide the same benefits to the Columbia basin but to actually come out, at the en d of the day, with one en- tity. That's the reason for this section. J. MacPhail: Sorry — amalgamating the Columbia Basin Trust and the Columbia Power Corporation? They're two very different entities. I'm sorry. Let me ask this question, Mr. Chai r, which was my question before the minister spoke: how will the Columbia Power Corporation pay their levy now?

Will they pay taxes as opposed to providin g the grant-in-lieu? That's the case with other Crown corporations. That's a ques- tion that may be redundant now that the minister has just revealed something, but perhaps he could answer that question. Hon. R. Neufeld: No, I'm not trying to confuse here. This is a complex set of discussions that's going on between the trust and Columbia Power Corpora- tion. The power projects that would be developed would still be paying taxes to the same level as B.C. Hydro, as long as the trus t has an ownership in those projects. [1600] J. MacPhail: Yeah.

I might add the Columbia Power Corporation has built a substantial amount of generation that this governme nt never, ever refers to when it says the previous government didn't generate any new hydro. It's shocking that they think they can get away with that, saying that in the 1990s there was no new generation created when Columbia Power Corporation has done that to the tune of megawatts after megawatts. Just tell me this, then. What's the nature of these discussions? How are they occurring? Are they in se-

8030 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 cret? Are they open? Where ca n we go to participate in these discussions? Hon. R. Neufeld: The Columbia Basin Trust, Co- lumbia Power Corporation and the Crown agencies secretariat are having those discussions in regard to these issues. At the end of the day, hopefully, it will come out with something where we can actually de- liver more revenue to the Columbia basin than what is being delivered now. J. MacPhail: Why is this

section necessary? Hon. R. Neufeld: Again, I'm not trying to be diffi- cult with this, because ther e are discussions going on, and so there's nothing unto ward here. Actually, as I said before, what it does is leave the ability to tax whatever happens at the end of the day between the discussions between Columbia Basin Trust and Co- lumbia Power Corporation in a way that it should be properly taxed or not taxed. That's one part of it. I neglected to talk about the definition of the bounda- ries of the region, and that is also part of this section.

I'm s u r e t h e m e m b e r i s a w a r e t h a t w h e n t h e y w e r e i n g o v - ernment, they were probably asked as many times as we have been to change the boundaries of the region in re- gard to the Columbia Basin Trust. What we're doing is actually…. It used to be that the government only made that decision. What we're saying is that we're putting that authority with the Columbia Basin Trust also. It has to be a request from the Columbia Basin Trust to the govern- ment before there would be any changes. J. MacPhail: Could the minister tell us whether the discussions to amalgamate…?

Well, in fact, are the dis- cussions to amalgamate the Columbia Basin Trust and the Columbia Power Corporation to take over, to merge? What is the nature of the discussions? Who is involved in those discussions, and how long have they been going on? Hon. R. Neufeld: Again I'll say that the folks who are discussing this are people from the Columbia Basin Trust, Columbia Power Corporation and Crown agen- cies secretariat, which is responsible for the Columbia Basin Trust and Columbia Power Corporation. Those people have been discussin g it, and they've been dis- cussing it for a while.

I believe those were the two questions you asked. [1605] J. MacPhail: Is it the board of the Columbia Basin Trust that's discussing this? Hon. R. Neufeld: I've met with the board chair and the CEO in regard to this on a number of occasions, and so has Crown agencies secretariat. I've met with both from both CPC and CBT. J. MacPhail: Thank God I asked that question, be- cause the minister originally forgot to name himself as part of these discussions. He forgot that little detail. So the politician in charge involved in these discussions….

Tell me: could I go to the Columbia Basin Trust min- utes and see the nature of these discussions? Have the chair and the treasurer reported back to the board on these discussions? The other question I had for the minister is: the nature of the discussions — is it a merger, an amalga- mation or a takeover? Hon. R. Neufeld: I've only had a few meetings with those people in regard to this. The board, I would as- sume — a n d i n f a c t I ' m t o l d b y s t a f f — had been in- formed of these discussions that are going on.

It's really an issue about streamlining the whole operation, and the final part of it has not been decided yet. Sections 9 to 11 inclusive approved. Title approved. Hon. R. Neufeld: I move that we rise and report the bill complete with amendments. Motion approved. The committee rose at 4:07 p.m. The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Reporting of Bills Bill 79, Columbia Basin Trust Amendment Act, 2003, reported complete with amendments. Third Reading of Bills Mr. Speaker: When shall the bill be considered as read? Hon. R. Neufeld: With leave, now. Leave granted.

Third reading of Bill 79 approved on the following division: [1610-1615] YEAS — 58 Falcon Coell Halsey-Brandt Hawkins Whittred Cheema Hansen J. Reid Santori van Dongen Barisoff Wilson Lee Thorpe Hagen Murray Plant Clark Bond de Jong Nebbeling Stephens Abbott Neufeld Chong Penner Jarvis

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 8031 Anderson Orr Nuraney Brenzinger Bell Long Chutter Mayencourt Trumper Johnston Bennett R. Stewart Christensen McMahon Bray Locke Bhullar Wong Bloy Suffredine MacKay Cobb K. Stewart Visser Lekstrom Brice Sultan Hamilton Hawes Manhas Hunter NAYS — 2 Nettleton MacPhail Bill 79, Columbia Basin Trust Amendment Act, 2003, read a third time and passed. Hon. T. Nebbeling: Mr. Speaker, can I call for a recess of ten minutes? Mr. Speaker: A ten-minute recess has been called. The House recessed from 4:17 p.m. to 4:33 p.m. Hon. T.

Nebbeling: I call Committee of the Whole for consideration of Bill 85. [1635] Committee of the Whole House BC HYDRO PUBLIC POWER LEGACY AND HERITAGE CONTRACT ACT The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 85; H. Long in the chair. The committee met at 4:37 p.m. On

section 1. J. MacPhail: I just need to clear up some confusion arising out of the second reading debate, Mr. Chair. Member after member from the government side got up in this House and said that B.C. Hydro is not for sale. Both the member for North Coast and the member for Kamloops–North Thompson got up and alluded to the Hydro and Power Authority Privatization Act as somehow facilitating the sale of B.C. Hydro. They very clearly made the charge that because that act stayed on the statutes in British Columbia, the previous govern- ment had some secret desire to sell off B.C. Hydro.

I actually just reviewed Hansard on that earlier this morning. Perhaps the minister can stand up and clear up once and for all whether or not the Hydro and Power Authority Privatization Act facilitated or in any way permitted or encouraged or set in motion the sale of B.C. Hydro. Hon. R. Neufeld: Before I start, I'd like to intro- duce, on my right, Paul Wieringa, director of electricity policy, and that's in the Ministry of Energy and Mines. On my left is Stirling Bates, senior regulatory adviser with the Ministry of Energy and Mines. I want to clearly state for the record, again, that B.C.

Hydro and its core assets are not for sale. They are a protected asset, and what we're doing with Bill 85 is laying it out fairly strongly and, in fact, listing the as- sets — specifically the dams — and that these assets are not for sale. If some government in the future wanted to sell any one of those assets, it would actually have to come before this Legislature to get approval to do that. That's why we wanted to actually strengthen in this act — to make sure, just as we did in the BCTC act — that the assets are not for sale. [1640] J. MacPhail: Well, Mr.

Chair, I don't know whether the minister was deliberately avoiding answering my question. I'm referring to the debate brought forward by the member for Kamloops–North Thompson and the member for North Coast, who said that the Hydro and Power Authority Privatization Act permitted the sale of B.C. Hydro. It didn't, according to my reading, so I wondered if the minister could clarify where his government caucus members got that

interpretation. Hon. R. Neufeld: I appreciate what she's saying in her question. Actually, in the Hydro Power and Au- thority Privatization Act, there's one short sentence that says: "Nothing in this Act authorizes the sale of the authority's electrical division, nor any part of the au- thority's electrical division." It's something that was put in, I believe, in the late eighties and didn't describe accurately or strongly enough that those assets could be for sale. Actually, under th at act, they could be sold more easily. Under this act, they can't be.

We should remember it was the last administration that had, at one of their caucus meetings, a meeting about selling a large Crown corporation and listed all the Crown corporations, of which B.C. Hydro hap- pened to be one. I assume they sat behind closed doors and talked about that. We al so know they talked about that and had B.C. Hydro do polling with the public across the province to find out whether they wanted the assets sold or not. They found out very quickly that no, British Co- lumbians didn't want it sold. To their credit, they didn't sell it, but they certainly contemplated it.

What we wanted to do was bring this bill in so that it's stronger language, more understandable language about the fact that you can't sell the core assets of B.C. Hydro without coming before the House. J. MacPhail: Yeah, I feel so bad about a government that actually consulted with the public and listened to them. It was terrible that in the 1990s that took place. It

8032 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 was terrible in the 1990s when you had an open caucus discussion about whether to privatize public assets, and the government came to the conclusion to not do so — unlike this government, which has to be forced by the court of public opinion and protest and dismay to stop privatization such as with the liquor stores and the Coquihalla. But this minister actually was a Social Credit. I think that was his rookie induction into politics. He t h e n w e n t o n t o b e a R e f o r m , t h e n h e w e n t t o b e a n independent, and then he's a Liberal.

There's commit- ment to a philosophy. But this minister was a Social Credit, so he must have known about this legislation. What part of electrical division would be excluded from the transmission, genera tion and distribution of the electricity then? Hon. R. Neufeld: I'm glad she reminded me of my history. Let's see. I think th at in all three elections, I was elected with a majority. I think the public in Peace River North actually have some faith and trust in me, and I thank them for that.

In fact, I believe that last time, I was elected with a high 60 percent majority of the people in the constituency of Peace River North. I make no apologies for that. I have served the constitu- ency well and continue to serve the constituency well, as the member opposite does. I certainly don't take umbrage with what she has done in her past political life. But what we are saying — and we're talking about

section 1, I believe, Mr. Chair — in the

definitions is that we have listed the generation and storage assets identified in a

schedule to the act that can't be sold. We've also said the equipment and facilities for the transmission or distribution of electricity can't be sold. That's a fairly strong defini tion as compared to the old act. As I said, all we're trying to do is strengthen it to make sure that British Columbians understand that we're not selling it and that we never intended to sell it. In fact, it was manufactured by some other people that we were going to sell B.C. Hydro or any part of it. J.

MacPhail: I can understand why the minister would take umbrage at someone saying they may not be actually revealing all of their plans — like B.C. Rail. I can't imagine why anyone would be suspicious about the government flip-flopping on a promise not to pri- vatize something. [1645] Secondly, if the lengthy and many denials of gov- ernment members that B.C. Hydro was for sale or be- ing privatized…. In those lengthy denials, despite how long it took us to get the minister to admit that the sale of the Hydro administrative services to Accenture was in fact privatization…. That is on the record.

There has been a vociferous attack by the govern- ment caucus members on the B.C. Citizens for Public Power. In fact, the member for Chilliwack-Kent went to great lengths to show that because someone worked for the previous government in 1996 and is now an employee of the Citizens for Public Power, the NDP is somehow responsible for the views of that organiza- tion. Let's carry that forward. It seems to be logic that the executive council supports. Let me ask this then. Mark Reder. He's a lobbyist for the energy industry.

He's a former Liberal caucus worker and a former Liberal Party constituency activist, and now he works for the energy lobby. Well, does the minister then dismiss him as a partisan without any credibility too? Hon. R. Neufeld: Nowhere did I say that we sold any part of B.C. Hydro. The member's wrong. We out- sourced services from B.C. Hydro to Accenture so that the ratepayers could save over the next ten years ap- proximately $250 million. I th ink that was actually a pretty good deal.

In fact, we have another new busi- ness and a head office in Vancouver which actually has been able to garner some more business across Canada. It's headquartered in Vancouver, providing jobs to Brit- ish Columbians — people working for that company. I don't think that's a bad deal. I never once said we sold anything out of B.C. Hydro, because we didn't. We outsourced those services to Accenture. Again, I'm not here to discuss, I don't think, second reading debate. That's alread y transpired. It's gone by. We finished that.

Section 1 clearly states the assets that are not for sale with B.C. Hydro. J. MacPhail: Yeah. I know the minister never likes to discuss things that his government caucus members have said. He can never defend his government caucus members. There are two reasons. There are two poten- tial reasons for that.

The words that come out of the mouths of the government caucus members are com- pletely indefensible, or else he doesn't want to get up and admit that perhaps Mark Reder, an energy lobbyist and former staffer of the Liberal caucus, is now actu- ally directing him on his energy policy — doesn't want to admit to that. Just the same way that when Marcia Smith was revealed as wearing two hats, working for the energy industry and also working for the minister directly, somehow that wasn't an issue as well. I can understand this minister being embarrassed or not wanting to defend his government caucus at all.

It's like the Minister of Sustainable Resource Manage- ment. He couldn't defend his government caucus members either, because the statements were com- pletely indefensible. Are there any generation or storage assets not iden- tified in the

schedule that are currently owned or oper- ated by B.C. Hydro? Hon. R. Neufeld: The assets are listed in the sched- ule as they relate to generation and storage assets. Maybe I should put something on the record, Mr. Chair. Marcia Smith. The reference was made that Marcia Smith was somehow an adviser to me or my ministry on the development of the energy policy. Noth- ing could be further from the truth. In fact, that was cleared up very well the same d a y t h a t i t w a s b r o u g h t forward in question period. I know the member doesn't

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 8033 like the answers sometimes, and she doesn't like the truth sometimes. Marcia Smith and her company were hired to help us roll out the energy plan, well after it was developed. That's what took place — not in directing how the energy policy was put together. [1650] The Chair: Leader of the Opposition, I would like to counsel that we will return to

section 1,

definitions. Both sides should try and stick to that, please. J. MacPhail: I'll repeat my question, because the minister didn't answer it. Frankly, his word about Marcia Smith is as good as their saying they're not go- ing to privatize B.C. Rail. Who the heck knows… The Chair: Is this something to do with section…? J. MacPhail: …what Marcia Smith did? Yes. I'm going to repeat… The Chair: Thank you. If you would…. J. MacPhail: …my question that the minister didn't answer. Are there any generation or storage assets not identified in the schedule? Hon. R. Neufeld: Again, I'm going to answer the question first.

They're liste d in the schedule. All the assets are listed there. You know, she can continue to talk about Marcia Smith all she wants. It's interesting that she wants to go there. The Chair: Minister, on both issues, I think we should stick to

section 1 — both the Leader of the Op- position and the minister. J. MacPhail: The minister has been quoted in the media as suggesting that with out the provisions of this bill as they relate to protected assets, which is in

section 1, B.C. Hydro would not be able to dispose of old vehi- cles. How did he get to that conclusion? Hon. R. Neufeld: That's one example. There are probably hundreds of examples that I could use in B.C. Hydro's operation. There could be lines someplace that went, let's say, into a remote area or a remoter area — to a farm — and the farm was no longer operational, and the hydro lines were no longer needed. They could be taken down. That's just another example. There are all kinds of examples. Or tr ansformers or anything like that…. That's what we're referring to there — those kinds of operational things.

The world is a bit different today than it was in 1988, and the legal folks have asked us to identify it and be a little bit more clear on some of these issues. J. MacPhail: So the minister has a legal opinion that supports him saying that he would not have been able to dispose of old vehicles. Is that correct? Hon. R. Neufeld: I h a v e b e e n i n f o r m e d t h a t o l d vehicles, along with a lot of other things that B.C. Hy- dro have that they would want to dispose of because they were no longer needed…. Legally, they couldn't. What they wanted to do was reflect in the legislation the fact that they could.

J. MacPhail: Was there a bunch of illegal activities going on, like selling a tractor? Hon. R. Neufeld: I don't know about old trac- tors. I couldn't tell you. But under the old legisla- tion, it didn't cover it properly. We're trying to cover it properly so that it is a lot more clear to the public and everyone concerned about what assets are pro- tected and what assets actually can be disposed of, if that is necessary. J. MacPhail: How much did the minister pay for legal advice that he just got about the inability to sell a truck? How much did that cost the taxpayers? Interjection.

The Chair: Leader of the Opposition. A new ques- tion? J. MacPhail: I think that's a legitimate question. Is that not a legitimate questi on? Is the minister getting tired? I mean, I am the on ly one amongst the govern- ment caucus members asking any questions, so it is interesting that the minister has to sit in his chair and refuse to answer questions. How much did the legal advice cost to reach such a questionable conclusion? The Chair: The Leader of the Opposition on

section 1. A new question on

section 1? [1655] J. MacPhail: Absolutely. It's arising out of the defi- nition, Mr. Chair. Did the minister pay for any legal advice in reach- ing any of these conclusions? Just answer yes or no. On what basis did the minister make that statement about how they couldn't sell a vehicle? The only reason I question this is because it really goes to the credibility of what the minister says about anything.

Section 1 approved. On

section 2. J. MacPhail: The reason why I want to make sure I do my job properly is becaus e the Premier in his secret s c r u m j u s t s a i d h e ' d b e m o r e t h a n h a p p y i f I w o u l d step down out of my seat and give it to the new leader o f t h e N D P . I s a i d t o h i m , " I n y o u r d r e a m s , M r . P r e - mier," that I would leave. I'm just trying to do my job here. In fact, the minister doesn't want me to do my job. It's embarrassing how he sits in his seat. What are the criteria that Hydro will use to determine when an asset

8034 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 is no longer useful? Has he received legal advice on that? Hon. R. Neufeld: Hydro is a well-run corporation. Actually, Hydro is one of the largest corporations in the province of British Columbia — the third-largest utility in Canada. They have been running a large hy- dro operation for many years. They're quite capable of running a large hydro corporation, and they will make decisions about what they ha ve to dispose of and what they don't have to dispose of. What we're saying here and what we've listed in the

schedule — and you may not like it, but we've listed it — is that any of those assets or transmission and distribution are not for sale, unless you want to come back to this House and explain to people in this Legislature why you're doing it. That's simply what this bill is about: to reassure that it's not for sale. Here it is, and if you want to sell it…. If this bill actually will give a lot of protection into the fu- ture in relationship to B.C. Hydro…. Although the member says she might get calls about it, I get lots of calls about it, saying: "Right on. That's a good bill. We like what you have in that bill.

We like what you're do- ing with B.C. Hydro, and we're really happy that you're strengthening the fact that assets are not for sale." J. MacPhail: That was what my question was about. The minister stands up every time he gets a chance and says how he's strengthening the criteria about what assets can be sold, etc. I'm just asking him how he makes that determination. It's just the question that arises out of the minister's own comments: what are the criteria upon which the minister just based his assertion? [K. Stewart in the chair.] Hon. R. Neufeld: The bill lays it out. As I said, B.C.

Hydro will be able to make most of those decisions. What we're saying is that here are the things that can't be sold: the dams and the reservoirs, the transmission and the distribution. It's listed; it's stated. It actually is in the bill. They can dispose of things they have to dis- pose of in the regular course of business. This bill also allows them to do that. J. MacPhail: Well, there were people who operate the dams who were sent over to Accenture. The dams couldn't operate without th ese people. Yes, minister — through you, Mr. Chair — that's true. [1700] What about intellectual pr operty?

Is intellectual p r o p e r t y a b l e t o b e s o l d ? W h a t h a p p e n s i n t h a t a r e a , for instance? The minister made a very clear statement over and over again that he wouldn't have been able to sell a truck. I can't figure out where the truck stops — the assets of the intellectual property. As everyone knows, the generating station doesn't operate without a person, and yet the minister sent those people operat- ing those generating stations over to Accenture, a pri- vate operator. What are the rules? Just tell me what the rules are.

The minister makes this big assertion and claims a lot of credit for it. I'm just trying to figure out how he worked it through. Hon. R. Neufeld: I go back to this discussion we had a while ago about the control of the dams and the transmission. That remains firmly with those corpora- tions. What was outsourced to Accenture were some of the back-office services. The control still stays with the corporations that are owned by the province. J.

MacPhail: I have to debate a lot of legislation in this House, far more than the minister does, and I re- member very clearly that the people who are responsible for operating the dams — I listed the dams — have gone over to Accenture. The dams would not be able to oper- ate without those people. Maybe the minister doesn't remember that, but I do. Will the bits and pieces…? Hon. R. Neufeld: You're wrong. J. MacPhail: I am not wrong, and I'd be happy to have him stand up and prove me wrong. Will the bits and pieces of existing generation facilities be allowed to be sold off when they're not in use? Hon. R.

Neufeld: Actually, the operation does stay with B.C. Hydro and BCTC, in response to the earlier question. I remember debati ng those issues in this House. It stays with the control of B.C. Hydro and BCTC — is now and will be in the future. Maybe the member could tell me what bits and pieces she's talk- ing about. J. MacPhail: Well, I'd be happy to. It's interesting that the questions are now coming toward me. Well, let's look at Burrard Thermal. What happens to Burrard Thermal, where they're only running three of its six generating units? Hon. R.

Neufeld: If you look closely on page 3 of the bill, No. 6 is Burrard Thermal. It's a protected asset. At least that's what I read. If there is a move to change Burrard Thermal, whether it's running on one turbine or two or three or four or five or six, it doesn't make any difference. If there's a move to sell Burrard Ther- mal, that would have to come back to this Legislature for discussion because it's listed as a protected asset. J. MacPhail: Every single generating unit at Bur- rard Thermal is protected, whether it's operating or not. Is that correct? Hon. R. Neufeld: Again, the operating genera- tors….

Interjection. Hon. R. Neufeld: Let's remember that that is a sys- tem — Burrard Thermal. It's large. It can generate up to

WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 8035 900 megawatts. If they want to change out a turbine, they ought to be allowed to do that to generate electric- ity. It says this in the act. The old ones — no, we're not going to protect the ones that are really old. If B.C. Hy- dro can actually put in new generation, they ought to be able to do that to improve efficiency. I'm sure the member would like us to move forward with that, im- prove the efficiency and th e air quality in the lower mainland. I think that would make good sense. If you want to change out an old tu rbine, this allows B.C. Hy- dro to do that. J. MacPhail: Where in the legislation? Hon. R. Neufeld: It's

section 2(2)(c): "…the assets disposed of are to be replaced with one or more assets that will perform similar functions…." J. MacPhail: Is that systemwide or an individual generation plant? [1705] Hon. R. Neufeld: That's systemwide. J. MacPhail: Why, then, was (

c) put in there? What's the necessity for that? Burrard Thermal is an example of that. Where else? Hon. R. Neufeld: That could take place in any one of the other facilities across the province. We do own more than one thermal facility. There's another one in Fort Nelson. At some point in time that one may have to be upgraded. There could be one of the dams that may need a turbine upgraded to where you can put in a newer turbine that will ac tually generate more elec- tricity at a more reasonable rate. There should be noth- ing wrong with being able to do that. J. MacPhail: Does (

c) mean that power now pro- duced by B.C. Hydro could be replaced by independ- ent power and the act would still be considered ful- filled? Hon. R. Neufeld: Actually, this bill has to deal with the assets that are listed here. They're listed by name as far as generation facilities go, so I think the

schedule is fairly straightforward in what is a protected asset. J. MacPhail: Well, I asked the minister whether it was systemwide, whether the replacement could be added systemwide, and the minister has a plan that all future power production will be by independent power sources. Maybe let me just clarify, then. If Bur- rard Thermal shuts down, then that amount of power has to be replaced by B.C. Hydro and owned by B.C. Hydro as an asset? Hon. R. Neufeld: Again, use Burrard Thermal for instance.

You would have to come back to this Legisla- ture and actually explain in this House to the people of the province why you would be closing Burrard Ther- mal and how you would be replacing that energy. That whole process is open. It actually allows

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H1119pm-10
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H1119pm 10
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f3cc8d452f36129df77212e73373dd0d57e54407

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