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December 4, 2013

40th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2013-Dec-04 (PDF)

L095 - Wed 4 Dec 2013 / Mer 4 déc 2013

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Wednesday 4 December 2013 Mercredi 4 décembre 2013

ORDERS OF THE DAY

WASTE REDUCTION ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 SUR LA RÉDUCTION

DES DÉCHETS

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

JOB CREATION

JOB CREATION

ENERGY CONTRACTS

ENERGY CONTRACTS

CHRIS MAZZA

HYDRO RATES

LABOUR MOBILITY

MANUFACTURING JOBS

CHRIS MAZZA

CHILD CARE CENTRES

MANUFACTURING JOBS

PERSONAL HEALTH INFORMATION

FOREST INDUSTRY

DEER HUNT

PROPERTY TAXATION

CONSUMER PROTECTION

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

YOUTH SERVICES

OLDER WORKERS

CHILDREN’S HOSPITAL

OF EASTERN ONTARIO

LORNA BETHELL

WESTON SANTA CLAUS PARADE

PROPERTY TAXATION

HAMILTON URBAN CORE

COMMUNITY HEALTH CENTRE

BANGLADESHI HINDU

COMMUNITY CENTRE

REFORESTATION

HERB EPP

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

FINANCE AND ECONOMIC AFFAIRS

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

STRONGER WORKPLACES

FOR A STRONGER ECONOMY ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 SUR L’AMÉLIORATION

DU LIEU DE TRAVAIL AU SERVICE

D’UNE ÉCONOMIE PLUS FORTE

HUMAN RIGHTS CODE

AMENDMENT ACT

(AWARDING OF COSTS), 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 MODIFIANT

LE CODE DES DROITS DE LA PERSONNE

(ADJUDICATION DES DÉPENS)

SPIRITS OF COMPETITION ACT

(LIQUOR LICENCES), 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 SUR L’ESPRIT

DE CONCURRENCE

(PERMIS D’ALCOOL)

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

PROTECTION FOR WORKERS

INTERNATIONAL VOLUNTEER DAY

PROTECTION FOR WORKERS

INTERNATIONAL VOLUNTEER DAY

PROTECTION FOR WORKERS

INTERNATIONAL VOLUNTEER DAY

PETITIONS

WORKPLACE INSURANCE

OFF-ROAD VEHICLES

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION

HIGHWAY IMPROVEMENT

CELLULAR TRANSMISSION EQUIPMENT

CHARITABLE GAMING

ONTARIO COLLEGE OF TRADES

CELLULAR TRANSMISSION EQUIPMENT

COAST GUARD AUXILIARY

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION

CHILDREN’S AID SOCIETIES

AIR QUALITY

ORDERS OF THE DAY

ONTARIO PROVINCIAL POLICE

COLLECTIVE BARGAINING

AMENDMENT ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LA NÉGOCIATION COLLECTIVE

RELATIVE À LA POLICE PROVINCIALE

DE L’ONTARIO

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

WASTE REDUCTION ACT, 2013 /

LOI DE 2013 SUR LA RÉDUCTION

DES DÉCHETS

Resuming the debate adjourned on November 26, 2013, on the motion for second reading of the following bill:

Bill 91,

An Act to establish a new regime for the reduction, reuse and recycling of waste and to repeal the Waste Diversion Act, 2002 / Projet de loi 91, Loi créant un nouveau cadre pour la réduction, la réutilisation et le recyclage des déchets et abrogeant la Loi de 2002 sur le réacheminement des déchets.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate?

Mr. John Yakabuski: I’m very pleased to join the debate this morning on Bill 91, the Waste Reduction Act or Waste Diversion Act, whatever they want to call it. I think the diversion act would certainly be appropriate, because it’s an attempt by the government to divert attention from their sorry record when it comes to waste diversion over the past 10 years.

I recall, when I was first elected here in 2003, then-Environment Minister Leona Dombrowsky—now Justice of the Peace Leona Dombrowsky, appointed by Dalton McGuinty—made a promise to the people of Ontario that the McGuinty government would have a waste diversion rate of 60% within five years. Well, the waste diversion rate is well under 30% today. Promise made; promise broken. But we’ve heard that before. That’s a pretty ongoing, repeated refrain across the province of Ontario when it comes to the Liberal government: Promise made; promise broken. What they want to do is they want to divert attention away from their sorry record by bringing in this Waste Diversion Act.

You know what? When you have

an act like this, one of the key components is to remove the cost from municipalities and producers; there was a shared cost in the past, and now it’s going to put the cost 100% onto the producers. On the surface, that would sound like a popular thing to do. Of course it’s popular, because if you say to somebody, “Well, it used to cost you money; now somebody else is going to pay for it,” the average person, if they don’t really do a whole lot of thinking about it, is going to say, “Hey, that’s a good idea.

I like the fact that somebody else is going to pay for it.” Then, when they tell you that it’s going to include all these big businesses: “Oh, that’s really good. Really good. Let’s make those big businesses pay.”

Unfortunately, the world doesn’t work quite that simply. You see, those big businesses didn’t get to be the cornerstones of our economy by making dumb decisions; they got there by being efficient, effective, providing the products that consumers use and demand, but also operating at a profit, because if you can’t operate at a profit, you won’t operate at all; you’ll be out of business. This is what the government wants: to somehow pretend this is going to cost you nothing.

Business has a choice. If they get hit with—and this is a half-a-billion-dollar per year bill to business. This is a half-a-billion-dollar bill to some of the strongest, most dependable job creators in Ontario—a half-a-billion-dollar a year bill. What happens when you’re in business and you get hit with this kind of expense without any real consultation with the business? Listen, the Liberals talked to a few of their friends.

They said, “Would you like this?” You know, the ones they like to pander to for votes—the Environmental Defence people and all of those. “Hey, do you like this one?” “Yeah, we like that one.” “Well, we’re going to do it, because we want to keep your support. We want to keep the money rolling in” from those fancy, slick, very wealthy organizations that support you, “and we want to keep your support at the polls, because we want to keep fooling the people and winning elections”—on shell games and smoke and mirrors.

So businesses now have a choice. They’re going to have a choice. They’re going to be able to make the choice to absorb this half-a-billion-dollar cost, and perhaps lose thousands—they would have to fire thousands of people across the province of Ontario to be able to cut their expenditures—or they’re going to do what they’ve always done, and that is just pass the cost on to the consumer. So the consumer is going to pay.

Do you know what they’ve done here? They had such a mess—I see the former environment minister, now the Attorney General, and I wish him the very best as he prepares to retire from this august chamber; I know he’s not seeking re-election in the next election. I must say I have enjoyed my 10-plus years with him here in this House. He’s a gentleman and I will miss him. But I do remember when he brought out this crazy eco tax thing. I tell you, that lasted about as long as one of those commercials on television: 30 seconds and the people said “Nyet, nyet, nyet.” That was the end of that stuff.

He was shell-shocked; he was punch-drunk, running around here. He didn’t know what to do, he got such a backlash. What did they do? They just shuffled that under the carpet and buried it.

So now they want to bring out this gigantic new bureaucracy, and we’re going to have—first of all, all of the old stuff stays. All of the old organizations stay, and they have this gigantic new bureaucracy. We’re going to have a waste czar.

Interjections.

Mr. John Yakabuski: You know what? I’m hearing echoes and rumblings. Do I hear the name Chris Mazza? Forget about messing up the ER in Thunder Bay; Liberals will have a job for Chris Mazza. They’re probably going to make him the waste czar. Or maybe they’re going to bring somebody from eHealth or wherever; maybe Pat Dillon will pick a name or something. But rest assured, ladies and gentlemen across Ontario: This will be not a diversion; a disaster. It is doomed to fail, because the industry does not support it.

Now, why would you not have sat down—we need to sit down with the industry and establish real, enforceable targets. Industrial waste diversion has gone down from 19% to 12% since this government took office. What does that tell you? The people steering the ship are doing a bad job. They’re not working with industry. They haven’t sat down with them and said, “Look, waste diversion is important; our environment is important.”

I want to take my hat off to our critic for the environment, Michael Harris, who has done a fantastic job as environment critic. He sees the big picture. He sees the truth. He doesn’t jump on populist bull and try to jump on the votes of today; he actually is thinking long-term about what matters to the people of Ontario.

I also want to congratulate Michael and Sarah and their son Murphy on a new arrival on Monday night: Lincoln Lloyd Harris. God bless them. It’s fantastic to hear. That’s all wonderful news, and I’m looking forward to seeing Lincoln here someday.

Now, Michael has got it right: Let’s sit down with these people in industry and say, “This is the way it’s going to be, folks, but you’ve got to be part of it.” You guys are saying, “You’re going to pay for it, but you have no involvement. You’re just going to pay the bill. We’re going to run the show and we’re going to hit you with a half-a-billion-dollar bill.” That is not the way you do business in Ontario and that’s not the way you work co-operatively.

I mean, my goodness gracious, Premier Wynne continuously talks about having a conversation and working collaboratively. “Collaboratively”—I love the word; it has a lovely ring to it. Unfortunately, I’m not sure if she knows what it means, because when it comes to working with business, I don’t think she understands that to collaborate with someone means that you actually value their input; you believe and accept that their opinion matters. But what you’ve done with Bill 91 is, you’re removing them from the equation and sending them the bill.

I understand that. As a father, I used to work that way. My kids are becoming more independent every day, but I still understand what it’s like to not have much to say but pay the bill. But they’re my children. I wanted to have them. I didn’t actually have them. You know what I mean? My wife did all the work—still does. God bless you, Vicky; thank you very much.

I only have a minute left, Speaker. Is the clock malfunctioning today? I only have a minute left and I want to impress upon the people on the other side, there is still time. There is still time and it’s Christmas. Christmas is a time to open up your heart and ask yourselves, “Are we doing this for selfish reasons, to try to pander to get some votes, or do we really care what matters and what happens to Ontario over the next several years when it comes to waste diversion?” You have failed. The record speaks for itself; you cannot deny it. Your record since you’ve been elected has been dismal, abysmal, worse.

So as we enter into the holy season, the Christmas season, I ask you to take a look at this bill and ask yourself, “Is this really what we need to do?”

I believe there are many things we can do to improve it. Do we have to improve our waste diversion rate? Absolutely. Are we going to do it with your plan? Not likely. We need to sit down with Michael Harris, sit down with industry and get this done right.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. John Vanthof: It’s always a pleasure to be able to stand in this House. I have to say that it is quite a challenge to follow the member from—where is Mr. Yakabuski from? Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke. He is one of the most entertaining speakers in the House. And on one area that I do have to agree with him, that he is not the only one whose wife did and still does all the work. My wife is in town this weekend and I’d like to acknowledge that our spouses do a lot of the burden of a political job.

But on a lot of other things, I didn’t quite agree with the previous speaker. We do have some serious misgivings about the waste diversion authority, because it is once again an example of an organization that, without a lot of supervision and direction, could go astray and cause the people of Ontario, the taxpayers of Ontario, the businesses, a lot of trouble.

As this bill moves forward to committee, we’re going to have to be very cognizant of that fact, because we’ve had examples from this government—Ornge and eHealth—where this government has allowed the power of government to leave these halls without supervision. That ends up costing people a lot of grief and a lot of money. In this case, it could cost a lot of jobs, and that’s something we have to be very cognizant of and make sure that we keep our eyes on that.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Hon. John Gerretsen: First of all, I hope that the member from Renfrew–Nipissing feels better now. He’s got it out of his system, and for the rest of the day he will undoubtedly be much more positive about the world around him.

I always say that we all have a different role to play here and there are some very tough jobs in this place, but absolutely the toughest job for any of the members here is to be the environment critic for the Conservative Party. How it’s possible that the Leader of the Opposition could have asked that new father, Michael Harris, to be the critic—that young man deserves a lot better than that. That’s all I’ve got to say about that.

Speaker, what this bill is all about is making the producers of material, once its life cycle is over and done with, responsible for the proper disposition of that material. It could be put into new products; it could be recycled; it could be reused. That’s the only way it’s going to work. Why should society be burdened with all the material that has been produced by producers once its life cycle is over and done with?

What we’ve traditionally done is make municipalities responsible for it. We used to call them dumps. Now they’re landfill sites, or there are some other fancy names we use basically for dumps. We just put it in the ground, contaminate the soil, quite frequently, and contaminate the waterways etc. What this act does is give the government much greater control to make sure that producers do the right thing and get rid of the materials in a proper, environmental fashion.

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Oxford and the member from Renfrew.

Hon. John Gerretsen: That’s what the bill is all about, Speaker.

We haven’t done well enough in this province with respect to recycling. We should be doing a lot better than 30%. This bill is going to accomplish that, because it puts the government in charge of making sure that all of this material is recycled and reused in a proper fashion. I hope the member opposite understands the real nature of this bill.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Durham.

Mr. John O’Toole: I listened carefully. In fact, I sat beside the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke, and he summarized the bill very thoroughly, I think, also thanking Michael Harris and his staff for dissecting and restructuring Bill 91.

This morning, the Coalition for Effective Waste Reduction in Ontario appeared in the dining room, and many members, including the member for Peterborough and I, had breakfast with a couple of the people who were there. They widely represented all the industries in Ontario, and they presented some options for the government. I’m going to read from their release this morning. The effective waste recovery in Ontario organization contributes “$315 billion and 908,000 jobs to the Ontario economy.”

They had a joint submission, and in it they said that, “Bill 91 presents significant risks for businesses across the province.” They went on to say that Bill 91 would “create unnecessary costs, confusion and complexity.” This is the industry; this is not political. These are jobs in Ontario speaking in a single voice, under this organization, saying that Bill 91 “would transfer substantial additional costs of end-of-life management to producers, while at the same time locking producers into arbitrary relationships” with no controls.

They were also very unhappy with the idea that the eco fee cost recovery would be buried in the price of the product and there would be absolutely no accountability. They were more than displeased.

I want to put on the record that we sat with, I think it was, John O’Leary from Coca-Cola, as well as Jeff Van Damme, who is general counsel for Samsung, Ontario, Canada, I gather. They were very professional and very concerned. I think Mr. Leal would have recognized that there was an opportunity here for the government to stop this, get it right, work with Michael Harris and his staff and do the right thing, because our side wants to provide transparency and accountability. This does not do that.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments? The member from London–Fanshawe.

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: Thank you, Speaker. I want to reiterate the sentiment of my colleague from Timiskaming–Cochrane that the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke certainly woke us all up this morning. You probably had a good breakfast downstairs, because you show that you have lots of energy when you’re debating. He’s got a good fight in him, regardless of what he fuels himself with.

Speaker, he mentioned his wife, and I want to add that in too, because I’m a woman in politics. The member from Timiskaming–Cochrane and also the member from Renfrew–Nipissing mentioned that their spouses hold down the fort. They’re at home, making sure everything works smoothly. Being a woman in politics—my husband and I both work together to make sure our home runs smoothly, so he takes

part in the responsibilities. It’s an interesting partnership. So it’s different how a woman in politics maybe has that dynamic at home and a man in politics has that dynamic at home.

Anyway, saying that, Speaker, getting back to the topic at hand, I was downstairs as well meeting the business people, and I had breakfast with Michelle. She was one of the representatives there from the food and consumer products. She was saying that they approached the government about making sure that there’s facilitation between municipalities and the business industry in recycling. They feel there’s an important issue there that needs to be discussed. They need to define those roles as to funding models and how much participation the reduction industry business will have in setting up the programs of the municipalities and how things are recycled. That was one of their concerns.

I hope this government does take that into account, because she felt that there needed to be more consultation, more conversation about that, to make sure that both parties that really play a major role in the reduction of waste were at the table. Thank you.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke has two minutes.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I want to thank the member from Timiskaming–Cochrane; the Attorney General; the member from Durham, my colleague John O’Toole; and of course the member from London–Fanshawe. We both share granddaughters by the name of Lilli, too. Isn’t that interesting?

I listened to what the Attorney General said, and I must say that I would like to be in a happier mood but I can’t agree with what he said, because there is nothing in this bill that is going to bring about a reduction in the amount of waste going into landfills. There’s nothing in there. This is a reassigning of the deck chairs, as I said, on the Titanic and moving the bill over to the industrial-commercial side and away from the consumer and the municipalities. So there’s nothing that actually compels this to happen.

But if we did sit down with this group of people—the manufacturers, the retailers, the producers, the wholesalers, the beverage people, all of these people that produce a significant amount of waste—and said, “The time for talk is over. It is time for some concrete action on how we’re going to reduce waste,” and get that input, but establish targets that are reachable and enforceable, we would do a whole lot more to reduce the amount of waste going into our landfills.

Also, the reality is it’s time to stop talking about landfills; it’s time to start talking about real ways of getting rid of waste, as they’ve done it in Europe and the Americas for years. It is time to seriously look at efficient, non-polluting incineration, energy from waste. That is the future; that is the key. This government was opposed to it from the start. They’re starting to look at—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you. Further debate?

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: I am pleased to rise here today to talk about Bill 91 and what it means to our province and what it means to those who are already having a very difficult time in Ontario as producers. This morning, I had an opportunity to sit down with some colleagues as we discussed this bill, and it became very clear to me in some of the conversations that have happened that this bill is going to place an economic obstacle on the backs of many of our producers.

In fact, one of my colleagues said that a major television production company—not in terms of TV shows but in terms of producing the actual television itself—is thinking about picking up and leaving Ontario because of bills like this and something else we’ve been talking about this last week, which is high hydro rates. This is another example of how the government in Ontario, particularly this Liberal government, wants to put forward their own social engineering practices at the expense of Canadian and Ontario businesses, and then wants to force them out of the province because of these catastrophic policies.

I say to you, Speaker, that that is not the way we want to proceed in Ontario. We actually have to have far more rational, reasonable approaches to these, and I think my colleague from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke, my seatmate, did give an excellent synopsis of where this bill has its failings.

I do take exception to what the Attorney General had said in terms of this being a very difficult file for Conservatives. I couldn’t disagree more. We are the party that brought in the Blue Box program. We are the party, under Brian Mulroney, that stopped acid rain from coming into this nation. And we are the party, under Elizabeth Witmer, who was the first and only person to close a coal fire gas plant—after this government, after 10 years in office, continued to miss their targets.

So I must say to my colleague Michael Harris, who is not here today because he is with his family after the birth of his beautiful little son, Lincoln Lloyd, that he is doing a tremendous job. He’s making us all very proud, and he makes it look like it’s easy. I know he’s working hard. I see his assistant Shane, one of the hardest-working staff members at Queen’s Park, here today making sure that this debate continues and that we have all of the concerns on the table for Bill 91.

Speaker, I want to point out to you that this is a government that has used the environment file to abuse our economy. This is the party that brought in the eco tax. Remember that, Speaker? I’m sure you can’t forget it; I won’t. They decided to bring in a whopping new tax on almost everything, by government regulation, on Canada Day a couple of years ago. People would end up going to Home Hardware to pick up a bucket of paint and they’d find this brand new tax. They would pick up a television at their local Best Buy and they would find this brand new tax. In some cases, it was doubling the purchase amount.

That’s what this government has done and this is what they want to do with Bill 91. They want to make sure that consumers are going to see a rise in their price because they are unfairly taxing Ontario manufacturers and businesses, those who produce the goods that we purchase.

So this is their attempt at environmentalism. Their attempt at environmentalism is taxing those who serve our communities. We simply don’t agree with that, Speaker. That’s why I’m going to call for adjournment of debate.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Nepean–Carleton has called adjournment of the debate. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? I heard a no.

All those in favour, please say “yea.”

All those opposed, please say “nay.”

I believe the yeas have it.

Call in the members. This will be a 30-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 0928 to 0958.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Order. Members, take your seats.

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): I’d like a little order, please. Are we all done? Thank you.

Ms. MacLeod has moved adjournment of the debate. All those in favour will please stand and remain standing until the Clerk’s office records it.

All those opposed, please stand and remain standing.

The Clerk of the Assembly (Ms. Deborah Deller): The ayes are 22; the nays are 30.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): I declare it lost.

Further debate? Ms. MacLeod.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Thank you very much, Speaker. I appreciate this opportunity to continue the debate on a bill that shouldn’t actually be before this House. It is the wrong bill. I see the government House leader leaving. He’s embarrassed by this bill. I think that we need to continue to discuss what we could actually bring forward in meaningful legislation on the environment. This is not the bill.

My colleagues are very upset with this. They have a variety of different mechanisms they would like to employ in order to improve this legislation or replace this legislation on the floor of the assembly.

I want to reiterate my comments to the Attorney General, who at one point said that as Progressive Conservatives it’s hard for us to have a sound environmental policy. I think we all know that isn’t true. I reiterate the defence of my colleagues on the blue box. I reiterate the defence of our party on the acid rain treaty. I reiterate our position on the coal-fired plants. We were of course the first to ensure that didn’t happen.

I’d actually like to talk a little bit about smoking. That might be a health effect rather than maybe a purely—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Order.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: —effect, but it was Norm Sterling, a friend of mine, a former MPP, who was the first to bring in non-smoking legislation in Ontario—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): We’ve got about 10 little sidebars going. I’d like a little quiet so I can hear the member, please. If you have a little discussion you want to have, you know you can go through those doors and take it outside. Thank you.

Continue.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Thanks very much. We have a couple of demands that I would like to reiterate in the time I have left without being interrupted by the Liberals.

We believe we need to remove the authority sections from the act. We believe we need to remove the intermediary sections, the provision to set up government-mandated monopolies, like we have now. We believe we need to remove sections 44 and 45, which will force businesses to hand over 100% of the funding for the blue box with no control. We believe we need to phase out the Liberal eco tax programs now.

We have always said that those eco taxes were wrong. I remember standing in this assembly upstairs, waiting for someone from the government to show up to work on July 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 in the year 2010 because they hid that eco tax from the public, and all of a sudden it showed up on their prices. I remember that. I remember the Toronto Sun and the Ottawa Sun running big expositions against the eco taxes that this government snuck through by regulation and cabinet authority. That isn’t right. In fact, I would say it’s downright illegal, but they did it.

We’re here to say to the public again that as Progressive Conservatives we will unite again to try and defeat that eco tax. We will try and remove that from the sticker price and the price tag when they are at the cash register.

Speaker, I remain committed, as I know our colleague Michael Harris, our critic, does. I know my colleague from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke spoke in a very comprehensive way about the challenges we feel this bill places on business owners across the province. By the way, it is anti-business, but it’s also not pro-environment. It’s just shifting the price tag around. It’s all well and good for this government to say they have plans and that they’re doing something, but they’re not really—this is not an environmentally friendly bill. It is a business killer, yes, but it is not environmentally friendly.

We think it’s just going to continue the eco taxes and create new taxes to fund a bigger bureaucracy, but it doesn’t do anything to improve the state of our environment here in Ontario today. They maintain the opposite view from us and they’re going to continue their efforts to advance this destructive bill. If passed, the proposed law would continue all the Liberals’ eco tax programs and create new ones to fund the expansion of the province’s recycling agency, Waste Diversion Ontario.

Waste Diversion Ontario, remember, is the agency that approved each and every single Liberal eco-tax-imposed program on Ontario consumers, yet it answers to no one. When we ask the Liberals in this House, “Why did you do this?” they like to point fingers. It’s a never-ending game of pointing fingers at every other agency and every other person, and no one takes responsibility.

I must say this to you, Speaker: Ontarians are tired of this Liberal government not taking responsibility. Whether it’s eco taxes, the HST, gas plants or hydro rate increases, they like to say, “Oops, I did it again. Let’s blame someone else and let’s not take responsibility.” The only time they’re going to take responsibility is when the voters of this province enforce that responsibility on election day.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Ms. Cindy Forster: It’s always an honour to rise to speak to the bills in this House. Now, I talked about this bill awhile back when I had my 10 or 15 minutes on it, but in the last week or two, I’ve actually heard from a company in my riding. It’s called RMC; it’s a raw materials—they’re actually a battery recycler, and they have some real concerns about this bill. They are in favour of waste diversion. They’re certainly in favour of recycling. They’ve been recycling batteries in my riding since 1985. Their company actually employs 50 full-time employees in Port Colborne.

But they are concerned about some pieces of this bill that are actually going to impact their operations in a negative way, that might even put them out of business.

Now this company has invested $3 million into their business in the last three years, but they’re concerned about the way that this recycling process is going to roll out and that it will truly impact their business. I think that we need to make sure that whatever we’re doing here is going to have some balance, that it’s going to actually work to create more diversion, but that it isn’t going to put businesses out of business, because we’ve lost 300,000 jobs in this province and I really can’t afford to lose 50 more in my riding, and I don’t think the province can afford to lose any more jobs as well here in the province.

I think that when this bill gets to committee, we’re going to have to make some really good amendments to it and not leave it all to regulation and to some agency that we have no authority or oversight over.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Hon. Jeff Leal: I listened intently to the remarks from my colleague. The member from Nepean–Carleton had the opportunity this morning, with all members of the House, to join what I thought was a very productive breakfast reception in the dining room talking to many people who are very involved in this industry, and sitting at the same table as the member from Durham and the member from Parry Sound–Muskoka and the member from Nepean–Carleton—one of those kind of ecumenical type of breakfasts this morning where everybody comes together.

I had the opportunity to chat with my friend, John O’Leary, from Coca-Cola. Coca-Cola has a wonderful manufacturing operation in my riding of Peterborough in Minute Maid. So anybody in North America today who starts their breakfast with Minute Maid orange juice and oatmeal from Quaker Oats in Peterborough knows that it’s going to be a great day in Ontario, when you start your day with those two fine products.

I must say we had a very frank discussion. They raised some very valuable points and I made some notes on how we look forward, as this bill goes forward.

I want to recommend to everybody that there was quite an interesting editorial in last Sunday’s Toronto Star, talking about this particular bill; it’s interesting. The bill does contain some very positive elements that were suggested by the member from Kitchener–Conestoga. We look forward as this will process down the road.

So just, as I said, have Minute Maid orange juice in the morning, made in Peterborough, have Quaker Oats in the morning to start your day, made in Peterborough, and, of course, part of Ontario’s dynamic manufacturing sector. As I said, it was an opportunity, and I had the chance to chat with these people.

I thank the member from Nepean–Carleton for her remarks this morning.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Rob E. Milligan: First off, I’d like to thank the member from Nepean–Carleton for giving an extremely insightful view into Bill 91.

As the member from Peterborough would know, I was also at the breakfast this morning, and it was very enjoyable. As I, however, meandered around the room and was meeting various individuals in the manufacturing sector, in the effective waste reduction coalition, one thing became quite apparent to me, and that’s the fact that what this government has done with Bill 91 is going to drive more jobs out of this province.

It seems to be a pattern that we’ve witnessed, particularly in the last couple of weeks. We’ve heard of Heinz having to relocate and close down; 800 jobs in Leamington have left the province. The member from Peterborough alludes to Coca-Cola and Minute Maid being produced in Peterborough. Well, those jobs, Minister, are probably going to leave the province very shortly if this government is to remain in power.

What we saw is the fact that energy costs have skyrocketed under this government. When we listen to the manufacturers in Northumberland–Quinte West, they’re telling me the same thing.

I heard it over and over again this morning, that these policies that the Liberal government are bringing in under the guise of environmental protection and “it’s good for the people of Ontario” and clean air—what they’re doing is actually driving people out of this province and finding jobs in other jurisdictions, whether it be in Alberta, western Canada, Ohio, Michigan, wherever.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: Thanks to the member for Nepean–Carleton for her debate on this Bill 91.

Speaker, there are concerns on this bill. We all have concerns. We’ve heard the concerns from the Conservatives. We’ve heard concerns from the NDP. But there’s one item, too, that the member from Nepean–Carleton brought up, and it was the authority. There are certainly concerns about the effectiveness and the transparency of the new Waste Reduction Authority.

We know that there has been a lot of talk and debate about this government’s oversight over many departments, health being one of the huge ministries in particular that has lacked a lot of oversight because of where that authority may lie. But, Speaker, right now, the prosecutors are responsible to the Attorney General, and the Attorney General has voiced concerns that if this structure is changed, they could be subject to political interference.

So we need to make sure that if we’re going to change the structure, take it away, is it the right approach—we have to ask ourselves, Speaker—for the Ministry of the Environment to transfer the authority, the enforcement powers, in order to ensure compliance of producers and recycling, or is the enforcement better done by the ministry itself? Because there is that oversight now with regard to authority on that, and the Attorney General is right now the one who is accountable to the Legislature.

I think that’s where the authority should remain, and those are the questions that I’ve heard about oversight and how this is going to be effective. If we’re going to change the authority, is it the right way to go?

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Nepean–Carleton has two minutes.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: It is an absolute pleasure, once again, to join debate on Bill 91, and it is always a pleasure, Speaker, as you are well aware, to place your views onto the floor of the assembly.

I’d like to thank all of my colleagues for their thoughtful interventions throughout this debate. I think it’s important that we have the opportunity to discuss our views on this particular piece of legislation.

I do take exception, however, to the comments made by the Minister of Rural Affairs—a very nice man, of course. But he was at the same table that I was at, and I think that it was reflected by the people who were at that table—of course, the majority of the views there were Progressive Conservative views, but even from the stakeholders—of the concerns of this piece of legislation.

I think what we have to understand in this province, in this particular moment, is that in order for us to not even create jobs anymore but maintain the ones we have, we actually have to have a comprehensive industrial policy, a comprehensive energy policy that is working within that integrated approach—then, from there, a good environmental policy, one that doesn’t prohibit job creation, but one that augments it.

That is not what this legislation does. In fact, I look at places like Coca-Cola or Sony or any of those other companies that are agri-food producers or what have you. They are actually going to be penalized for setting up shop in Ontario under this legislation. This is the second time I’ve had to speak about this in a week, because the energy policies of this government have also penalized companies from coming and investing into Ontario. So if we are to talk about comprehensive reform on the environment, we must actually take this into consideration when we are putting forward environmental policy.

The second thing is—and I want to conclude on this—this bill really isn’t about environmentalism; it’s about taxation, and when that happens, we have lost the focus of what’s really important.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you. It being 10:15, this House stands recessed until 10:30 this morning.

The House recessed from 1015 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Steve Clark: The Coalition for Effective Waste Reduction in Ontario hosted a breakfast reception this morning for MPPs and staff and are in attendance during today’s question period. They represent the views of manufacturers and retailers whose products are obligated under the proposed Waste Reduction Act, Bill 91. Collectively, they represent 40,000 businesses operating in Ontario, contribute more than $315 billion and 908,000 jobs in the Ontario economy—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Would the member take his seat, please.

I’m not amused. We have gone through this before. Please introduce your guests. Thank you.

The member from Toronto–Danforth.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: It’s my pleasure to welcome to Queen’s Park members of the Ontario Principals’ Council: Larry O’Malley, Sandra Stewart, Frank Palumbo, Ken Arnott, Laura Romanese and Peggy Sweeney. Welcome to the chamber.

Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn: It gives me great pleasure to introduce my senior employee in my Oakville constituency office, Mr. Steven Muir.

Mr. John O’Toole: Speaker, I’d like to welcome a regular guest here every day. Alfred from the Trinity–Spadina riding is here to observe question period, as he’s done for the last several years across the province of Ontario. Welcome, Alfred.

Mrs. Liz Sandals: I’d like to add some more folks to the list of members of the Ontario Principals’ Council who are with us today: Bob Pratt, who is the president—welcome, Bob; John Hamilton; Susan Ferguson; Brian Serafini; Mary Linton Brady; Ian McFarlane—I’m not sure where Ian is. Also, somewhere around, I believe, are Larry O’Malley, Frank Palumbo, Sandra Stewart and Ken Arnott.

Mr. Monte McNaughton: I’d also like to welcome Susan Ferguson to Queen’s Park today. Susan is the principal at North Lambton Secondary School in my riding. Welcome.

Ms. Cindy Forster: I’d like to welcome the students from École Saint-François in Welland who will be sitting in the public gallery this morning. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Hon. Brad Duguid: I’d like to introduce Joanne Kaattari, co-executive director of Community Literacy of Ontario; and Shelley Harris. They’re both the 2012 and 2013 literacy award winners. It’s Shelley’s birthday today. Happy birthday.

Speaker, I’d also like to welcome members of OUSA who are here to join us today: Stephen Franchetto and Seth Warren from Wilfred Laurier University; David Campbell and Spencer Graham, both from McMaster; Cooper Millard from Brock; and Leigh McDougall from the University of Waterloo.

Mr. Todd Smith: I’d like to welcome a number of members of the Coalition for Effective Waste Reduction to the Legislature today. We have Brandon Ashmore, Michelle Saunders, Gary Rygus, Shelagh Kerr and Brian Prendergast here.

Ms. Catherine Fife: It’s my pleasure to welcome Jennifer Moser to Queen’s Park. It’s her first visit. Please welcome her.

Mr. Kevin Daniel Flynn: I’d like to introduce the grade 5 class from Abbey Lane Public School in Oakville that is joining us today at Queen’s Park.

Mrs. Jane McKenna: On a point of order: I’d like to wish my dear friend and the member from Oxford, Ernie Hardeman, a very happy birthday today.

Applause.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): That definitely does not upset me.

The member from Lambton–Kent–Middlesex on an introduction.

Mr. Monte McNaughton: I’m not sure if he has arrived in the chamber yet, but I’d like to introduce Cosmo Mannella, the business manager for LIUNA, Ontario Provincial District Council. Welcome to Queen’s Park today, Cosmo.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: We’ve got five students from Western joining us today: Patrick Whelan, the president of the students’ council; Jasmine Irwin, VP communications; Sam Krishnapillai, vice-president, internal; Spencer Brown, vice-president, finance; and Amir Eftekharpour, vice-president, external, and president of the Ontario Undergraduate Student Alliance. We’re delighted to have them here today.

Mr. Jonah Schein: I want to welcome to the gallery today the family of Maya Joy Parkins-Lindstrom: Sarah Whitham is with us today, Jennifer Parkins, George Lindstrom and Kelly Parkins-Lindstrom. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): On behalf of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, for page Yong Da: mother Wilma Wang and father Yao Li are in the public gallery today visiting their young son.

Also in the Speaker’s gallery—

Interjection: Where’s Joe?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): That’s my other brother.

Representing Elgin–Middlesex–London in the 37th, 38th, 39th—and for the 39th Parliament, Speaker of the House—Steve Peters.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I don’t mind them asking for Joe as long as they don’t ask for you to come back here.

Anyway, it is now time for question period.

ORAL QUESTIONS

JOB CREATION

Mr. Tim Hudak: My question is to the Premier. Premier, I hate that I have to continue to pester you about this, but you and I made a deal two months ago—

Interjection.

Mr. Tim Hudak: —she says I don’t—then I think you know where I’m coming from. I’ve asked the same question almost every day. Two months ago, you and I agreed that we’d clear the decks on some secondary bills before the House in order to give you a chance to bring forward a jobs plan. I want to remind you, Premier, that there are only about eight days left until this Legislature rises for the Christmas break. I’ve asked you day in and day out where your jobs plan is, as you promised.

Unfortunately, on Monday you brought forward your long-term energy plan, a continuation of Dalton McGuinty’s failed energy policy. I’m asking for a jobs plan; you gave me a job loss plan. Premier, we can do a—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Question.

Mr. Tim Hudak: —than this. Will you bring in a jobs plan before the Legislature, the House, rises before Christmas? When’s your plan coming?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I really just want to go to the premise of the Leader of the Opposition’s question, because when he said we had that conversation about moving pieces of legislation ahead, that’s exactly true. The second part, which is him basically asking us to adopt his plan, was never part of the conversation, Mr. Speaker.

I said all along that we had a plan. We needed to move legislation through the House, but we have a plan and I’ve spoken about it many times. I’ve talked about investing in people. I’ve talked about the skills that people need and making sure they have those supports. We talked about investing in infrastructure, and it would be great if the opposition would join with us in strategic infrastructure investment, including transit and roads and bridges.

I’ve talked about creating a business environment. At the manufacturers and exporters meeting last night, it was very clear that the plan that we’ve got in place is one that they support.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: Premier, I didn’t clear the decks for the good of my health. I did it so you would bring forward a jobs plan, as you said you would. You could take our plan; I welcome you to steal it. You could take Don Drummond’s plan. You could take Roger Martin’s plan. I don’t care what plan you take, as long as you bring forward a plan to grow our economy and put people back to work in the province of Ontario.

Here’s the question I have for you: We’ve lost 300,000 well-paying manufacturing jobs. As you know, Premier, that pace of loss has accelerated under your leadership. If you do get a job in the province of Ontario, the odds have doubled that it’s a minimum wage job. You said when you became Premier that you wanted to create a fair society. Premier, what is fair about creating a society with public sector “haves” and everybody else working for the minimum wage?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I think we understand that the Leader of the Opposition’s plan would include slashing services to people, taking tens of thousands of people out of the services that they deliver to residents of Ontario, to citizens, in education and health care.

But, as I’ve said, we have a plan in place. Part of that plan is creating a business environment, a dynamic business environment, so that businesses can thrive, and part of that strategy is the small businesses act, which will come back from committee today. My hope is that the PCs would work with us to pass the bill before the House rises so that 60,000 businesses can benefit from that break on their payroll taxes. I hope the Leader of the Opposition would see that that is part of a plan to create jobs and support business, and that they would help us move that legislation through.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: I don’t think the Premier is getting a fair enough grasp on the reality that families are facing across the province of Ontario. Minimum wage jobs have doubled as a proportion of the workforce. We’ve lost 300,000 manufacturing jobs. I know that facts are stubborn things, but they are reality.

Premier, the concern I have is that you continue to give more giveaways to the government unions, with wage and benefit increases that they don’t dream of in the private sector. The vast majority of jobs that we’ve lost in manufacturing were private sector union jobs, so how do you justify to the union worker who used to work at John Deere making a good salary, who is maybe working at a part-time minimum wage job, that his taxes have to go up to pay for your giveaways to the government workers? How do you justify to the Heinz worker, a union worker who’s lost his job, that you’re going to give more giveaways to people like Chris Mazza?

It’s not fair; it’s not just. It’s no way to build a fair society when you have public sector “haves” and everybody else—my plan will grow more jobs across the economy.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: What I hear from the Leader of the Opposition is wedges being driven between people. What I hear is division being sown among people who have certain kinds of jobs and people who don’t have those kinds of jobs. What I hear is a plan to slash public services, to take people out of public service and education and health care—and we’re not going to do that.

What we believe is that it’s very important to make the investments that will allow business to thrive, and it’s very interesting that the Leader of the Opposition talks about low wages when his labour policy, his so-called right-to-work policies, would actually drive wages down across the board. It would be a race to the bottom, and that is not where we’re going. That is not the kind of Ontario that we envision on this side of the House.

JOB CREATION

Mr. Tim Hudak: Back to the Premier: It’s a pretty basic rule of economics. You increase demand. You have more people who want to set up shop, more job creation in Ontario. That means wages rise. That means that middle-class incomes increase, more people working. You don’t seem to grasp the basic premise of economics.

I’ll ask the Premier, is her plan working when the wages for Heinz workers are going to zero, when they’ve gone to zero for John Deere, when they’re shipping Camaro from Ontario to Michigan, Equinox from Ontario to Tennessee? Premier, your plan is bankrupting our province, and it’s hollowing out the middle class. We can do better than this.

I ask you, Premier, what is fair about a society where the only job you can get is a minimum wage job? You’re the one that’s divided our province. You’re the one that gave unaffordable increases to some and tossed the rest out of work.

My plan is to grow the economy, put people into good jobs, entrepreneurs back in business, to actually have a rising tide for all so that we can protect the things we are about. That’s my plan. I just ask you, where’s yours?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. The member from Durham will come to order. The member from Northumberland will come to order.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I think that the Leader of the Opposition needs to look to the jurisdictions where the kinds of policies that he is espousing have been put in place, Mr. Speaker, to see what happens to wages, to see what happens to the quality of life, to see what happens to the general well-being of people who rely on services and their ability to sustain their families.

That is not where we’re going. We are not going to pit people against one another. We are not going to slash services across education and health care and across government. That is not what we’re going to do. We are going to work with the private sector as we have been doing with Toyota, Ford, GM, Green Arc Tire Manufacturing, newterra, Pillar5 in Arnprior and Lambton Conveyor in Wallaceburg. We’re going to work with the people of Leamington as we bring them together and figure out how to make sure that food processing actually expands. That is the goal that we have set in place. That is our plan and those are the supports we’re putting in place.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary? The member from Burlington.

Mrs. Jane McKenna: My question is for the Premier. Premier, a new survey from economic development consultants, Development Counsellors International, looked into American executives’ views on expansion markets. DCI found that when companies look to expand in a new jurisdiction, the two most important factors driving site selection are operating costs and workforce quality.

Premier, your government is driving skilled labourers out of province. Our energy prices continue to skyrocket. Taxes are multiplying. Red tape is costing us billions every year, and you tell us that this is the new normal. What sort of message does that send to potential investors?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I know that the Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Employment is going to want to weigh in, in the supplementary.

Let’s just talk about energy prices for a second, because I think it’s a very instructive area. As I say, when I was at the manufacturers and exporters meeting last night, there was some really high praise for the long-term energy plan because what business is looking for is reliable energy and reliable electricity infrastructure. That’s what they said, and it’s too bad that all the members here weren’t there to hear that. I know some were.

According to the National Energy Board—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Shouting somebody down—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Cambridge could wait a minute so that I can speak.

Shouting somebody down is not polite.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I just want to talk about residential and industrial rates. Industrial rates in northern Ontario are among the lowest in Canada, and lower than 44 American states. Industrial rates in southern Ontario are lower than in Alberta, Michigan, New Jersey, California, and they’re in line with states like New York, Virginia and Tennessee. So in fact our rates are competitive. I think it’s worth noting that when the Leader of the Opposition was asked if he could promise lower rates, he said, “The answer is no on that.”

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mrs. Jane McKenna: You told the CME last night you were going to be their cheerleader. They don’t need a cheerleader; they need a leader.

Premier, your talking points are one thing, but let’s look at the reality. DCI learned that location decisions were driven by cold, hard data. They told government to stop focusing on feel-good marketing and answer one simple question: Can business be profitable here? If there isn’t a business case for investing in Ontario, businesses will bet on another market. Well-run businesses look for well-run provinces.

Premier, do you really think that investors will overlook the fact that your finance minister can’t explain how he’s going to eliminate the deficit, or that you have no plan for jobs and the economy?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please. Be seated, please.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Economic Development, Trade and Employment.

Hon. Eric Hoskins: When I talk to members of the CME, they tell me that they’re sick and tired of hearing from the official opposition talking down our manufacturing sector, because they’re so proud, as we are, of the strength of this sector, especially at a time when the CME and their members are trying to encourage young people in this province to join the manufacturing sector, to join the skilled trades and to become technical people and work in this advanced manufacturing sector, especially at this vital time where we’re trying to encourage them.

The official opposition may not know this—I know they’re being political in a lot of this discussion, but I don’t understand why they continue to talk down the sector and discourage our young people from entering into a viable sector that has 700,000 people working in it today, which has some of the best companies. In terms of the investment potential as well, we have the number one destination in North America per capita for foreign direct investment. These companies are coming here. I wish you would stop talking down this sector, because it’s so important to Ontario’s economy.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): New question. The member from Toronto–Danforth.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please.

Be seated, please. Be seated, please.

New question. The member from Toronto–Danforth.

ENERGY CONTRACTS

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Thank you, Speaker. To the Premier: Does the Premier agree that transparency and accountability in our electricity system are more important than ever as bills continue to climb?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I do, and I have said many times from the moment I came into this job that I wanted to open up the transparency around the way we do business, particularly on siting large energy infrastructure. But, Mr. Speaker, I think that the long-term energy plan speaks to that transparency and that openness going forward.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: To the Premier: Last year, the private nuclear firm Bruce Power missed a key deadline in their contract, and under the terms of the contract the government signed, Ontario ratepayers were entitled to a significant rebate in the price they paid for power. One estimate says the government could have taken $500 million a year off our bills. Why didn’t the government enforce the contract?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Energy.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Mr. Speaker, we’re very proud of the job that Bruce Power, as well as Ontario Power Generation, is doing in delivering nuclear across the province of Ontario. The contracts that we have are subject to negotiations on a regular basis because issues come up, and our people in the Ministry of Energy deal with those in a forthright manner in terms of resolving issues that come up. If you look across the whole energy sector, there are issues that will come up with power producers, with power consumers relating to price, relating to contracts. They’re negotiated in an open, forthright manner, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Well, Speaker, neither the Premier nor the minister answered that question.

Last year, the government said they had independent reports to back their decision. For over a year, New Democrats have been asking for details of those reports, and for over a year the government and Bruce Power have refused to share details. The government passed up an opportunity to get a half a billion dollars back from a private power company. Why can’t we see the details that justify that decision?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Mr. Speaker, as I’ve indicated, there are issues that come up in negotiation of contracts. Sometimes they can be made public; sometimes they can’t. What I will do—I’m a new minister for the last number of months. I will look into the issue and I will report back to the member in terms of getting additional information on the specifics of this particular issue. I’d be happy to meet with the member.

ENERGY CONTRACTS

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Back to the Premier: Ontario’s auditor has already said we paid far more than we should have in the private power deal with Bruce. The government had an opportunity to dramatically lower costs and pass half a billion dollars in savings on to families and businesses. The government didn’t do that, and they won’t share the reports that would explain why. Does the Premier understand why people paying the highest hydro rates in Canada might expect a little more transparency?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: The Minister of Energy has said that he’ll work with the member opposite on the specifics of the information that he is looking for.

But it seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that this member in particular might want to make some statements on what he supports in terms of energy planning going forward, because the messages that have been coming from the party have been so conflictual—they have not indicated what they support. What we know is that they don’t support nuclear, they don’t support our green energy plans, they don’t support investing in the refurbishment of nuclear and they don’t support investing in the distribution of energy. So I would have thought that the member opposite would have wanted to let the House know and let the people of Ontario know what the NDP plan is. We haven’t seen that, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Well, Premier, you clearly don’t want to answer these questions.

The government was pretty clear this week: They plan to negotiate additional private power contracts for the refurbishment of six more units at Bruce starting in 2016. Given the high cost and lack of transparency associated with the contract, can the Premier offer any assurances to families and businesses worried about new costs and a lack of transparency?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Energy.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Mr. Speaker, the refurbishments will require procurement, and I would ask the member, if he were standing over here, would he tell the people who are going to compete for those jobs what the cost of the contract will be, or would he allow a competitive process to take place so that we’ll have competition to lower the price and give value to taxpayers? He continues to criticize private power in this province.

Mr. Speaker, we have a hybrid system here. When they were in power, the NDP signed something like nine contracts for gas plants, which are still operating in this province. They were part of the hybrid system. The hybrid system is working. They generate not only good value for taxpayers, but the private sector is creating thousands and thousands of jobs in the energy sector.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Oh, Speaker. Ontarians are paying the highest electricity bills in Canada, and they see a government that doesn’t seem to care. They added $1 billion to hydro bills in their ill-fated gas plant adventure in Mississauga and Oakville. They added over $100 million to hydro bills, moving ahead with nuclear plans that they were going to have to scrap in any event. Now people learn that the government could have pursued Bruce Power for billions in savings and decided not to, and they won’t share the information that would justify that decision. Does the Premier think that that’s acceptable?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: I would like the third party to share with the people of Ontario what their policy is on electricity pricing. The leader of the third party has indicated that she will not commit to reducing power prices. The Leader of the Opposition has said he will not commit to reducing power prices. Power prices will continue to increase, Mr. Speaker.

But, if we want to look at what the National Energy Board has done in terms of research for everybody in this room, according to the National Energy Board—first of all, our plan is predicting, over 20 years, an average increase of 2.8%. Alberta, over 20 years, is predicting 3.7%. BC is predicting 3%. Manitoba is predicting 3.2%. Quebec is predicting 3%. Saskatchewan is predicting 3.3%. What is your percentage for your party? Tell the people of Ontario.

CHRIS MAZZA

Mr. Frank Klees: My question is to the Minister of Health. Speaker, on Monday of this week, the Minister of Health told us that she hadn’t read the forensic audit report into Ornge. In fact, she hadn’t even opened the envelope. Yesterday, she told us it was the interim report that she read, but she hadn’t read the final report. She denied that she intentionally withheld that report from the public accounts committee, and then sent her staff on a spin mission to the press gallery to tell the press gallery that all of the information in that report had already been submitted to the public accounts committee.

Speaker, that is an intentional move on the part of this minister to mislead not only us, but the media—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order. Order.

The member will withdraw.

Mr. Frank Klees: I withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Finish your question. You’re on the last 10 seconds.

Mr. Frank Klees: Speaker, it’s obvious we’re not going to get the answer here, so I want to put the minister on notice that I will be filing a motion with the public accounts committee this afternoon to call her to testify under oath at the committee’s next—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock.

Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister of Health and Long-Term Care.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I look forward to that opportunity, because I do think that the member opposite needs to get his facts straight. On December 21, 2011, I learned what Dr. Mazza took from the taxpayers of this province in a single year. A single year was enough for me; that was game, set, match. I immediately called a forensic audit because I wanted to understand what was going on in that organization. Several weeks later, I received an interim report from that forensic audit team. Again, that was all I needed to learn, and that’s when I sent that to the Ontario Provincial Police. The police took it from there. They are doing their job.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Frank Klees: It’s very clear the minister has much more to learn, and that is what is really going on at this committee. A motion was filed this morning to get that report that the minister did not read. What’s at issue now is the minister’s credibility and her competency. After more than two years of public hearings, after more than 50 witnesses, the most we can get from this minister is equivocation. We don’t believe the minister. Nobody believes the minister. That’s why we want to meet her in the committee room and have her testify under oath next Wednesday morning at 9 o’clock.

Will the minister commit now to appear before the committee at 9 o’clock next Wednesday morning?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please. Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I look forward to appearing before the committee because I think it’s important that committee members and the people of Ontario understand what actually happened in this case.

I took immediate action. When I found out one year’s income for that doctor from the taxpayers of this province, I took immediate action. I called in the forensic audit team. Within weeks, he was gone, the entire board was gone—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member from Stormont, come to order.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: —new leadership was in place, and the OPP were investigating.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member from Halton, come to order.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Perhaps the member opposite thinks that that wasn’t enough—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member from Stormont, second warning.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: —but, Speaker, I tell you, there was complete change at Ornge, and I’m proud of the work that the new team at Ornge is doing.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please. Be seated, please.

New question.

HYDRO RATES

Mr. Gilles Bisson: My question is to the Premier. Since your announcement of your long-term energy plan this week, we’ve had a number of calls in my constituency, and I’m sure it’s the same in other constituency offices across Ontario. A 33% increase over the next three years in hydro rates is going to force people on fixed incomes to move out of their homes. I’m getting the calls now where people are saying, “Listen, I can’t make ends meet as it is now on my fixed income. If my hydro rate goes up 33%, and I know my property taxes are going up right behind that, I can’t afford to stay in my home.”

Can you tell me why it is that you’re intent on raising rates so high that people have to move out of their homes as a means to support themselves in retirement?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Energy.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: This government has had three primary issues in the energy sector: We want a reliable system, we want a clean system, and we want an affordable system. We get AAA+ on reliability and making it clean. We cleaned up the mess that was there. We got rid of coal.

There are significant pressures on pricing. This new plan, over 20 years, will see an average of 2.8%. But in the meantime, in the short term, there are still pressures. We still have the 10% discount clean energy benefit. I spoke publicly to the media yesterday on a number of—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Hamilton Mountain will go to her seat so I can tell her to stop.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: —encouraging consumers to call their local distribution companies to get Peaksaver Plus. The study has been in that that has proven to reduce consumption by 9% for individuals. They can call their distribution company. There’s no cost to install it in their home, and they can reduce the price.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Minister, you know that that doesn’t wash with people back home. What people know is they get a hydro bill every month and the hydro bill is going through the roof, and they’re looking at you and saying, “What? Another 33%? I can’t take it,” is what they’re saying.

Here we have an email from a woman from Dryden who writes the following, and of course my glasses are—isn’t that hilarious? My glasses got stuck. Sorry.

I have an email here from a woman from Dryden who writes the following: “With the increase in hydro, property taxes and insurance, we’ve decided to get our home up for sale. We can’t afford to live here anymore on a $566-a-month Canada pension and what my husband got in RSPs.”

People can’t afford to pay. Why, then, are you increasing rates by 33%, knowing it’s going to force people out of their homes?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: I think it’s important to understand what the NDP voted against. They voted against the Ontario Clean Energy Benefit. They voted against the Ontario Energy and Property Tax Credit. They voted against the Northern Ontario Energy Credit, the Low-Income Energy Assistance Program and the SaveONenergy Home Assistance Program.

There are a significant number of factors that the people in northern Ontario, in Timmins and Thunder Bay, can access to reduce their rates, including using the Peaksaver Plus, which will provide an additional saving for them. If they use all of these benefits, particularly those people on low income, their rates will be reduced significantly.

LABOUR MOBILITY

Mr. Grant Crack: My question is to the Minister of Labour. In my beautiful riding of Glengarry–Prescott–Russell, the ability to work and do business in both Ontario and Quebec is an important part of day-to-day business. There’s a large amount of cross-border trade between Ontario and Quebec, and my constituents view the towns on either side of the border as neighbours, as one region.

A labour bill on mobility was debated earlier this session and was brought forward by the opposition. That bill was presented as a solution to interprovincial trade issues, when in fact it would have built barriers between our two great provinces. We all know that closing doors and putting up walls isn’t the answer.

Speaker, through you to the minister, can you tell us, Minister, what the ministry is doing to help improve labour mobility between Ontario and Quebec?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I want to thank the member from Glengarry–Prescott–Russell for his advocacy on behalf of his community and especially in eastern Ontario on this very important issue. He and I both know the labour mobility agreement between Ontario and Quebec has meant more jobs, more investments and more opportunities for Ontario workers in Quebec. We know that we have to work together to fix problems, not create new ones. That’s exactly what we have been doing.

A few weeks ago, we held the first labour mobility agreement round table in Ottawa. This event brought representatives from business and from labour. There was a Ministry of Labour representative there, the Jobs Protection Office, the College of Trades and others to identify and discuss issues that are facing workers and businesses and to find solutions by working together. The round table was a great success and it just shows the progress we can make when we work together instead of working to divide.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Grant Crack: Thank you, Minister, for your response. It’s great to hear that you and your ministry are taking concrete action on this issue. I know that my constituents will be pleased to hear that we’re working together with our partners for better results instead of working to build barriers that would only harm or prevent interprovincial labour mobility.

Ontario is open for business, and we know that many people came out strongly against the bill when it was before this House, such as—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Simcoe North, come to order.

Mr. Grant Crack: —John DeVries, president of the Ottawa Construction Association; Jim Watson, the mayor of Ottawa; and Richard Hayter and the Eastern Ontario and Western Quebec Building Trades Council.

Speaker, through you to the minister, could you please tell us more about your round table and what the reaction was?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: It was a very good and productive discussion. Like I said, we had representatives from all sides of the issue, and we were really able to talk about experiences and how things have improved since 2006.

One of the messages I heard very loud and clear was that both the construction sector in eastern Ontario and labour do not want to build a Berlin Wall between Ontario and Quebec. They want to make sure that we continue to work together to enhance the labour mobility agreement so that more opportunities, more jobs can be created for Ontario businesses and Ontario workers to work in Quebec.

As a result, we had a very productive discussion. As a result, we have a good sense of where we want to move forward. We’ll be working closely with specific sectors to address some of the concerns so that when I do sit down with my counterpart from Quebec, we can find proactive ways to enhance that agreement and create more opportunities for Ontario businesses and workers.

MANUFACTURING JOBS

Mr. Steve Clark: My question is for the Premier. Premier, we agreed to clear the decks so you could finally bring out your jobs plan. But what did we get? Bill 91, another dangerous economic experiment that you say will create jobs. You made the same claim with the Green Energy Act, and look what happened: You killed thousands of well-paying manufacturing jobs across the province.

Now you’re about to do the same thing with Bill 91. And what’s your logic? You say that imposing a half a billion dollars in new costs on businesses will create so-called green jobs.

Premier, I have a simple question: Have you done any economic impact analysis whatsoever on how many jobs Bill 91 will kill in the manufacturing sector?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of the Environment.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Be seated.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): No, no. It’s not on. Order.

Minister of the Environment.

Hon. James J. Bradley: On one hand, you have a critic getting up, saying that somehow, the recycling level in the province of Ontario is not satisfactory. We did widespread consultation with virtually everybody—municipalities, the private sector, individuals, environment groups. We put together a piece of legislation that was subjected to a lot of discussion before it even came to the House, and did analysis of what the impact would be by listening to those who made the representations.

There is a broad coalition of people out there under the umbrella of the Ontario Waste Management Association that happens to believe that this bill is absolutely essential. They’re wondering why your party, having come forward with a plan that resembles this plan very closely, has now decided, for partisan political purposes—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Steve Clark: I can’t believe what he said—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Attorney General will come to order.

Mr. Steve Clark: Premier, I just want to point something out to you: The Auditor General reported that for every so-called green job that’s created, four more are lost somewhere else in our economy—but I suppose you wouldn’t know that because the Liberal government never did a proper economic impact analysis on the Green Energy Act.

Your reckless policies are driving jobs out of this province, and now we have Bill 91, a bill that will raise prices for consumers and kill well-paying manufacturing jobs.

In September, Heinz wrote to your government, pleading with you to do an economic impact analysis on Bill 91, but they never got an answer, and now they’re gone. Premier, how many more manufacturing jobs are you prepared to send out of this province just so you can try another one of your dangerous economic policies?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Lambton–Kent–Middlesex will come to order. The member from Prince Edward–Hastings will come to order; when he gets to his seat, I’ll remind him a second time.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The minister responsible for seniors has found that magic moment again for me to bring attention to him. He will come to order.

Minister of the Environment.

Hon. James J. Bradley: Mr. Speaker, one can always count on the Conservative Party in this House to take an anti-environment stand on each and every issue there is—every time. If it comes to dirty air, they’re in favour of it. If it comes to dirty water, they’re in favour of it. If it comes to—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order. I have a feeling that some members are testing, and I’ll pass the test.

Minister of the Environment, finish, please.

Hon. James J. Bradley: Mr. Speaker, I have met with people from a variety of backgrounds, a variety of organizations, a variety of businesses in the province of Ontario, who have made their representations. I have invited them, when the bill gets to committee—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Oxford will come to order. The member from Prince Edward–Hastings will come to order.

Hon. James J. Bradley: —ringing bells on every piece of legislation it can before this House. I have invited those individuals to come to committee to make their representations and to offer their amendments. That is something they have welcomed, and that is something I look forward to with great anticipation.

CHRIS MAZZA

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: My question is to the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. Mr. Speaker, it seems unbelievable, but the fact is that when it comes to the Minister of Health’s explanation for why she didn’t expose Dr. Mazza’s real salary, the explanation keeps getting worse and worse. The minister has stated that it was the responsibility, somehow, of opposition MPPs and the media—unlike her, we didn’t know the figure—to ask for the figure.

It’s deeply concerning that after months of front-page headlines, and as a result of a minister who is not doing her job, she is continuing to fail to do her job in terms of oversight. Will the minister admit that it was her job to expose the salary of Dr. Mazza and that she is the one who failed to do so?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Speaker, as I said earlier, on December 21, 2011, I learned what Dr. Mazza took from the taxpayers of this province. That was enough for me: one year’s salary. That was it: game, set, match. I called in the forensic audit team. I think that was the action that the member of the opposition would expect I would do.

When the forensic audit report came—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member from Renfrew, come to order.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: —I read that interim report—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Renfrew will come to order—just in case you didn’t hear.

Finish.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I read that interim report. By that time, Dr. Mazza and his entire board were gone, and I referred the matter to the Ontario Provincial Police. That was the right action to take. That is the action of a minister doing her job.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Yesterday, the minister was playing games when it came to explaining the facts, and it seems that she’s doing the same thing again today. Let’s be clear: The full details of Dr. Mazza’s real payout were only included in the auditor’s forensic report. The forensic report had the full details of his salary. This report was never handed over to the committee that was studying this issue. It was only the minister who was given this forensic report, and the minister chose not to read this report. She admitted that she didn’t read this report.

When will the minister stop blaming everyone else and admit that it was her fault that we are again knee-deep in another scandalous story involving her ministry?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I think it’s important to take the time to understand what information has been provided to the committee. The committee requested information; they received that information. They received the answer to the question from the member from Guelph, who wanted a list of all compensation paid to Dr. Mazza. That information was provided to the committee, part of it publicly available, part of it in sealed envelopes, because it was personal information. That information was tabled a year ago. Also tabled with the committee was the interim report, the report that I based my decision on when I called in the OPP. The committee has the information.

CHILD CARE CENTRES

Mr. Steven Del Duca: My question today is for the Minister of Education. I was pleased to learn yesterday about the steps that our government is taking to strengthen oversight of the province’s unlicensed child care sector while increasing access to licensed child care options for families.

I’m even more pleased to learn that our government has placed a priority on reforming a piece of legislation that hasn’t been reviewed in 30 years. Over the last year, we’ve all seen heartbreaking tragedy in my community of Vaughan within the unlicensed sector. I understand that much of the proposed legislation is aimed at addressing oversight within the unlicensed sector that could help prevent such a tragedy from happening again.

Speaker, through you to the minister, can she please describe how this legislation will improve and strengthen oversight in this sector?

Hon. Liz Sandals: Thank you, Speaker, and thank you to the member for Vaughan for raising this important issue.

The member is absolutely correct. This legislation is overdue for a comprehensive update. That is why, well over a year ago, we began to consult with parents and stakeholders on how to update the legislation.

I’m proud of the legislation which was tabled yesterday in this House and which, if passed, will improve oversight in the unlicensed sector. If passed, it will allow the province to immediately shut down a child care provider when a child’s safety is at risk. It would give the province the authority to issue administrative penalties of up to $100,000 per infraction by a child care provider. It would also increase the maximum penalty for illegal offences under the act from $2,000 in the current act to $250,000 in the new act.

It would increase the number of children a licensed home-based child care provider can care for from five to six, and it would require all private schools that care for children under four to have a licence.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Steven Del Duca: I thank the minister for her response. I also know that our government has already taken steps to improve the oversight of child care. These include a dedicated enforcement team to investigate complaints against unlicensed providers and the development of an online searchable database of validated complaints.

Speaker, through you to the minister, can the minister please share with this House why this piece of legislation is critical and why it needs to move through our legislative process as quickly as possible?

Hon. Liz Sandals: Another excellent question from the member from Vaughan.

As the member pointed out in the previous question, the current piece of legislation that governs child care, the Day Nurseries Act, was enacted in 1946 and has not been comprehensively updated since 1983. Speaker, that’s 30 years ago. The legislation does not reflect the current needs of our children and parents.

The Child Care Modernization Act would help transform the child care and early years system to better meet the needs of both the parents who use and rely on the system and the children who are placed in its care.

Speaker, I was pleased to hear yesterday from both parties in the House their acknowledgement and understanding of the importance of this legislation. Both of them seem to think we need this legislation quickly, and I hope they will both support and help us to pass the legislation quickly.

MANUFACTURING JOBS

Mr. Tim Hudak: My question is to the Premier. Premier, as you know, I’m from Niagara, and I’m proud of that. While a lot of folks rightly associate tourism with Niagara, I’d argue, from where I grew up, that manufacturing has been the backbone, the strength, the fabric of our middle class. Niagarans would always make things, sell them to the States and sell them to the world. It made it a great place to live.

Unfortunately, under your policies, believe it or not, in Niagara we’ve lost two out of five manufacturing jobs, jobs that had been there before the Liberal government. Now two out of five have gone: John Deere, Edscha of Canada, Redpath Sugar, DMI Industries—sadly, I could go on and on.

I’ve got a plan to bring 300,000 well-paying advanced manufacturing jobs back to our province, including the Niagara Peninsula. I want to fight to rebuild that middle class. Why do you, instead, persist on policies that are making Niagara’s greatest export manufacturing jobs across the border into the States?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: The centrepiece of the plan coming from across the floor is right-to-work legislation that would drive wages down, that would drive quality of life down, and we’re just not going to do that.

The other part of his plan is to cut services across government, to take tens of thousands of people out of those services in education and health care that are so necessary for people in the province.

We believe that if we make the investments in people that are needed, make sure that the skills training is available, that the education is available, so we close that gap between the jobs that are available and people who are looking for jobs, if we make the investments in infrastructure—and I think the member opposite would agree that infrastructure is very important to the Niagara region. If we work to create that business environment, like passing the small businesses act, we would make the conditions right for businesses coming to the province.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: But, Premier, if you believe that infrastructure is the path to success, why did you kill the mid-peninsula corridor? Why did you end that project if you actually believe that new highways create jobs?

One of the first jobs I had was at Pratt and Lambert. It’s a paint factory. It helped pay the bills for school, for university. But we’ve seen industry hollowed out: DMI Industries in Fort Erie, Jarvis Street Pharma—those are hundreds of jobs that no longer exist. In a small town like Fort Erie, where I’m from, that’s a massive economic impact.

To rub salt in the wound, your government chose to take industrial land along the Queen Elizabeth corridor out of commission. You said they couldn’t create jobs there.

You have two choices, since you have no plan: You can take our plan, or you can take the NDP plan, which is going to increase hydro rates, is going to increase taxes and bring in more red tape, like Bill 91, and is going to cost us jobs. But for goodness’ sake, pick a lane, pick a plan. Mine will bring jobs back to the province of Ontario, rebuild our middle class and give hope to those in Niagara who are losing—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: The plan coming across the floor would precipitate a race to the bottom, which we are not going to engage in, Mr. Speaker. The Leader of the Opposition talks about infrastructure; we’re going to build the right infrastructure. So in terms of new roads, we’re not going to build new roads for the sake of building new roads. We’re going to make sure that the corridors that are already in place are being used appropriately, that we’ve got the transit that we need, that we’ve got HOV lanes and HOT lanes that are going to give people choices and are going to use the existing corridors to the very best advantage.

But the fact is that the Leader of the Opposition doesn’t support initiatives to clean up the air. He doesn’t support initiatives to clean up water. He doesn’t support initiatives to preserve land. So building roads willy-nilly is consistent with his plan.

That’s not what we’re going to do, Mr. Speaker. We are going to make the right investments in the right parts of the—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of the Environment will come to order. The member from Lambton–Kent–Middlesex is warned.

New question.

PERSONAL HEALTH INFORMATION

M me France Gélinas: Ma question est pour la ministre de la Santé et des Soins de longue durée. Speaker, it’s been a week since the minister learned that Ontarians are having their personal health information shared with Homeland Security agents of the United States. My question is simple: How could this be happening?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I welcome the opportunity to speak to this issue. I spoke to the Information and Privacy Commissioner, Dr. Ann Cavoukian, yesterday, I believe, or the day before. We spoke about this issue. I agree with her that it is completely unacceptable that personal health information be shared in that way. It is contrary to our legislation, PHIPA legislation. The Information and Privacy Commissioner is looking at this issue, and she and I have agreed to co-operate.

But I think it’s important to note that our ministry does not, in fact, even have that personal information. It is not information we collect. Therefore, it is not information we could share.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

M me France Gélinas: I’m happy that the Information and Privacy Commissioner responded so quickly to my letter and is working—Ellen Richardson was willing to take her story public, but my office and the minister’s office have heard from other Ontarians who have had the same experience but do not want further breach of their privacy.

All Ontarians need to be assured that their personal information is never shared without their consent. When Ontarians see privacy cracks in their health information, it is the confidence in the health care system that crumbles.

I ask again, can the minister explain to Ontarians how their personal information was shared with Homeland Security and assure all of us that it will never happen again?

Hon Deborah Matthews: As I said, the Information and Privacy Commissioner is taking this issue very, very seriously. She is working to find exactly the source of that information.

I can say with assurance that US authorities do not have access to medical or other health records for Ontarians travelling to the US. As I said earlier, we do not have that information, so we could not share it.

But I completely agree: It’s imperative that the Information and Privacy Commissioner does find out how that information is being provided. I think Ontarians deserve to know that their personal health information is kept private.

FOREST INDUSTRY

Mr. Joe Dickson: My question is for the Minister of Natural Resources. December is already here and families are preparing for a holiday season. A common tradition celebrated by families in Ajax–Pickering is going to their local market or store to buy a freshly cut Christmas tree. Being that Saturday, December 7, coming up is National Christmas Tree Day, many Ontarians will be out this weekend looking for that perfect Christmas tree. I expect a choir to sing here.

Here in Ontario, we are fortunate to live in a place with over 71 million hectares of forest, with about 85 billion trees, including the balsam fir, a perfect choice for a Christmas tree. We have access to many options for Christmas trees here in Ontario, and we encourage everyone to buy local.

Can the minister tell us how buying a local Christmas tree will help support jobs here in Ontario?

Hon. David Orazietti: I want to thank the member from Ajax–Pickering for the question. On a little lighter note and in the spirit of the season, I’m pleased to tell members of the House about MNR’s Ontario wood program, a great initiative to raise awareness of the benefits of purchasing a Christmas tree for the holiday season. When you’re buying a locally grown tree you’re helping to support businesses and an economy in Ontario that’s very important to the province.

There are about 500 Christmas tree farmers in the province and there are over one million Christmas trees harvested each year by these Ontario tree farmers. The sales amount to about $5 million annually in direct sales. It takes about eight to 10 years to grow an 8-foot Christmas tree, depending on the tree species. When one tree is harvested three are planted so that there’s always a sustainable crop here—this is very important. The continued harvesting and planting of these trees is great for the environment. The trees are 100% recyclable and biodegradable.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Joe Dickson: Buying local is very important to my community. I thank the minister for letting us know about the benefits of buying an Ontario-grown Christmas tree.

Many of my constituents will be happy to know that buying a freshly cut Christmas tree helps support jobs. The minister mentioned the Ontario wood program that was launched by the ministry. What is important is that a program like this helps to provide jobs year-round, not just at Christmastime.

Can the minister please tell us how we and all Ontarians can support the Ontario wood program all year round?

Hon. David Orazietti: Again, thanks to the member from Ajax–Pickering. This industry is so important to Ontario’s economy, and the Ontario wood initiative launched by MNR in 2011 helps to bring greater notoriety to the importance of Ontario wood and wood products. The program is designed to recognize the importance of this natural resource and encourage Ontarians from across the province to think about the benefits of buying wood products locally.

Ontario’s forest products industry is a significant contributor to the economy. Most recent figures show that Ontario forests support 180,000 direct and indirect jobs across the province, valued at $11.9 billion. It’s a renewable resource that literally builds our province.

In buying Ontario wood, consumers are helping to support these jobs and they’re helping to boost the forest industry, which has certainly faced significant challenges in recent years. Less than half of 1% of Ontario’s forests are harvested each year by law, and they’re required to have a plan in place for harvesting

DEER HUNT

Mr. Jerry J. Ouellette: My question is for the Minister of Natural Resources, as well. Minister, Thursday last, I updated the House on the controversial four-day deer culls taking place in the Short Hills Provincial Park. Last week, you stated that there were conservation officers, Ontario Provincial Police, as well as MNR staff on site to monitor the cull.

In light of next week’s Auditor General’s report, managing provincial parks in a cost-effective manner, what was the total cost to the taxpayers to have just 24 deer harvested in the Short Hills Provincial Park, where there’s, comparatively speaking, thousands of deer harvested province-wide in a cost-effective manner at no cost to the taxpayer?

Hon. David Orazietti: I’m pleased to respond to the question and share some of the comments that were made last week when the question was originally asked. The member knows this is about First Nations treaty rights. The member knows that this is the Haudenosaunee First Nations exercising what are their traditional hunting rights in this particular area, and there is a cost to ensuring public safety.

The cost is estimated—and the member’s asked for cost estimates—at around $40,000 to ensure that there is public safety.

Speaker, I would say—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Jerry J. Ouellette: Quite frankly, this is nothing less than the deconstruction of a sanitized memory.

Minister, it was stated that there was a need to reduce the deer population of the park by 85%, yet the cull rate is 80% less than the statistical birth rate of deer, meaning that the population is constantly increasing by 30% per annum. Minister, do these stats mean that the people could expect the cull to continue annually and to expect an expanded cull in order to achieve the desired deer population?

Hon. David Orazietti: Speaker, this has absolutely nothing to do with a cull. This is a hunt that is taking place by the First Nations. They’re exercising their treaty rights. The member knows full well—he’s raised the auditor as issue, in the report. I don’t think the auditor is going to be interfering in the constitutional treaty rights of our First Nations. We’re certainly going to be welcoming the report and looking to implement any of the recommendations that would be appropriate to do so.

The cost is one that the province is bearing with respect to public safety. It’s important to ensure that there’s public safety while this is taking place. Public safety is the priority, and this hunt was conducted in a safe manner. Perhaps we should be considering sending the costs and the bill, though, to the federal government and the RCMP for this. The member might want to take that up with some of his federal colleagues in Ottawa.

PROPERTY TAXATION

Mr. Michael Mantha: My question is to the Minister of Finance. In January, the municipality of Killarney highlighted concerns with the new MPAC valuation method for provincial parks that would negatively affect tax revenues to the municipality. The lands in Killarney Lakelands and Headwaters Provincial Park, Killarney Provincial Park and French River Provincial Park are unpatented lands, and will become exempt from taxation. The municipality will see a loss in excess of $649,000 in revenue, equalling one third of their tax base. What is the minister doing to work with municipalities so that they’re not losing much-needed revenue?

Hon. Charles Sousa: Thank you for the question. I do appreciate the concern that the member has raised. It’s something that we are addressing, as well, working closely with the municipalities. As the member may also know, the parliamentary assistant to the Ministry of Finance has been working with MPAC to ensure that we do a proper review and protect the interests of the municipalities that are affected.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Michael Mantha: Again to the Minister of Finance: The MPAC evaluation system is wreaking havoc for communities across the province. The entire valuation system of parks were sprung on communities last year, which left them with shortfalls from previous years. Now the province is threatening to terminate payment altogether on unpatented lands, which would leave the communities with another huge shortfall.

What is the province planning on doing with the unpatented provincial park land, and how will this affect payments to communities?

Hon. Charles Sousa: I know that there is a continued need to have an ongoing discussion with our municipal partners to ensure that we get some of these initiatives correct and that we’re fair, especially with the unpatented lands, because even some of those municipalities recognize that the neighbouring community is actually taking advantage of their services and resources that aren’t being funded by the unpatented lands.

We’ve got to get fairness in the system, and I’d be happy to work with the member, as well, to ensure that the communities in the north and those affected rural communities are properly assessed and that we have a fair system for all concerned.

CONSUMER PROTECTION

Mrs. Laura Albanese: My question is to the Minister of Consumer Services. Payday loan companies are used by various people for several reasons, sometimes by persons in desperate situations who need quick access to funds. These operations offer services that are currently not provided by commercial banks, but they do raise concerns when it comes to consumer protection, as I’ve learned from the experiences of many hard-working people in my riding of York South–Weston.

There are protections for consumers set out in the Payday Loans Act. However, many Ontarians are not aware of these when it comes to using a payday loan company. My question is, what protections currently exist for consumers who use the services provided by these companies?

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: Thanks to the member from York South–Weston for raising this very important question. It’s important to remember that it was our government, in 2008, that brought forward one of the most comprehensive payday loans legislations in Canada. We did this very swiftly when this business was downloaded from the federal government. The act provides a tremendous number of protections to consumers, and it meets certain needs for consumers to have access to funds.

However, the industry has changed. We know that there is a lot of technology involved with accessing payday loans, and new products are being offered in this marketplace. Those are some of the reasons that I announced my review of the payday lending act, and we’re committed to supporting consumers and supporting our economy.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): There are no deferred votes. This House stands recessed until 3 p.m.

The House recessed from 1142 to 1500.

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

YOUTH SERVICES

Mr. Rod Jackson: It’s a real pleasure to be able to stand here today and make a statement, specifically on those that came today to support Bill 88 in committee. I think it deserves recognition that some of these groups travelled far and wide to be able to be here today to have input into Bill 88,

An Act to amend the Child and Family Services Act with respect to children 16 years of age and older.

To summarize, this bill actually fills a gap where 16- and 17-year-olds do not currently have the right to any child welfare services and, in fact, barely have any services available to them whatsoever. This is a major gap that is solely in Ontario compared to all the developed world. It’s a gap that we haven’t solved yet, and it’s going to be a landmark bill if it goes to third reading. I urge the government to see it through to third reading. It is something that is very easy to support, and I hope that I can get their recognition of that.

Thanks to the Ontario Association of Residences Treating Youth; Pro Bono Law Ontario at SickKids; the Ontario Association of Children’s Aid Societies; Our Voice, Our Turn, specifically Michele Farrugia and Kayla Sutherland, who are children’s self-advocates; the Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth, Irwin Elman; Mapleview Community Church; Don Weber; Justice For Children and Youth; and the Canadian Homelessness Research Network at York University for coming and making contributions at committee today.

OLDER WORKERS

Ms. Cindy Forster: I rise today to comment on a program that has been successfully retraining older workers. A federal program called the Targeted Initiative for Older Workers program has assisted many unemployed workers in Niagara, offering enhanced skills training and a transition to new employment.

A 64-year-old from my riding, Bill Johnston of Thorold, tried to apply so that he could actually re-enter the workforce after losing his job at a bankrupt Fort Erie pharmaceutical company. The program focused on older workers between 55 and 64 who are unemployed and require enhanced skills, and he thought it would be a perfect fit, but when he applied he was told he didn’t qualify because he does not live in an eligible, vulnerable community.

After contacting my office, Bill asked for assistance. We learned the program would be winding down within six months. As one of the few successful action plan programs that the feds put out, it’s frustrating to learn that, with the province’s blessing, it ends on March 31, considering the current state of unemployment in this province. This government needs to stop the lip service on job creation and help the thousands of people in this province who are out of work and need the training to be successful.

My federal colleague Malcolm Allen is raising this issue in Ottawa as well. We hope that, if both levels of government work together, we can continue this good job creation and retraining program.

CHILDREN’S HOSPITAL

OF EASTERN ONTARIO

Mr. John Fraser: I rise today in recognition of the incredible work being done by the staff and volunteers of the Children’s Hospital of Eastern Ontario, also known as CHEO, in my riding of Ottawa South.

This year’s National Research Corporation Canada-Ontario Hospital Association patient ratings report ranked 27 institutions. Pediatric patients and their parents were asked to indicate their overall satisfaction with in-patient care, and CHEO achieved the highest ranking in the province. CHEO is also home to province-wide programs such as BORN Ontario, which is Ontario’s perinatal network; Newborn Screening Ontario; and the Ontario Centre of Excellence for Child and Youth Mental Health.

CHEO has been serving families in Ottawa and Eastern Ontario for almost 40 years. All three of our children benefited from the excellent care at CHEO, as have thousands of other children.

It has been said that CHEO is really an expression of what we all want for our children. Whether a child be our own, a grandchild, a niece or a nephew, or a neighbour, it’s thanks to the dedicated staff and volunteers at CHEO that we find that expression. On behalf of families across Ottawa, eastern Ontario and, indeed, Ontario, I’d like to offer my congratulations for a job well done and thanks to the staff and volunteers for their hard work and their continued passion in serving the needs of our children.

LORNA BETHELL

Ms. Sylvia Jones: We’ve all met inspirational people in our communities who do exceptional work for others, and today I’d like to share with you one such lady: Lorna Bethell of Caledon.

Lorna was an amazing woman who understood the need for quality palliative care in our community, and her passion led to the creation of Dufferin–Caledon’s only residential hospice: Bethell House, in Inglewood. In memory of her husband, Tony, and her son Jamie, Lorna donated the land that would become the home of Bethell House. Now, if you asked Lorna, it took too long; but many of us regularly reminded her that without her spark, Bethell House would never have become a reality.

Lorna’s enthusiasm for the project and her passionate leadership was driven by her own experience of caring for her husband at home. It was Lorna and Tony’s vision that everyone, regardless of their circumstances, would have access to quality residential care in their final stages of life.

In 2010, after the opening, Lorna continued to be an integral member of the Bethell House family. She was often at the home, visiting with families and volunteers and hosting her popular weekly teas.

Lorna was absolutely the driver behind Bethell House, but when being recognized and honoured for her contributions, she would often turn the spotlight on other volunteers, family members and staff.

Her enormous compassion for others has left a lasting legacy, not only in the bricks and mortar of Bethell House, but in its heart and soul as well.

It is somehow fitting that Lorna passed away this week while representatives from Hospice Palliative Care Ontario were highlighting the importance of hospice care here at Queen’s Park. I’m guessing Lorna would have liked that.

WESTON SANTA CLAUS PARADE

Mrs. Laura Albanese: Last Sunday, I had the pleasure of participating in the 34th annual Weston Santa Claus Parade. I was happy to march with over 50 different entries representing local small businesses, schools, community groups, service providers, and of course with Santa Claus himself. From Church Street to Sidney Belsey Crescent, along Weston Road, it was wonderful to see the community come together to celebrate the spirit of the season. In particular, seeing the faces of children and families from all different backgrounds light up as the parade went by showed the joy that this time of the year can bring.

The spirit of the season also extended to all those along the parade route who donated non-perishable food to the Weston Area Emergency Support food bank. I would like to thank all of those who gave a donation and supported others who are less fortunate in our community. It is important at this time of year to think of what we can do for others. That is what really brings us all together.

I would like to thank the Weston Village BIA for their continued effort in ensuring the Santa Claus Parade is a success; in particular, the chair, Masum Hossain, and the parade coordinator, Marion O’Sullivan. And of course, I want to thank everyone who came out to watch or participate in the parade for bringing Santa to Weston.

PROPERTY TAXATION

Mr. John O’Toole: I’d like to remind the House that the province could do more to support farm-based retail agribusinesses by reforming the property assessment rules for farm markets. The problem is that the farmer who shows initiative and establishes a market on his or her farm may be penalized by MPAC—we heard that yesterday in question period—and face a hefty property tax increase because of a commercial assessment change.

My riding of Durham is home to scores of farm markets, farmgate sales, on-farm stores, pick-your-own operations and CSA farms. From Algoma Orchards to Zephyr Organics, there are more than 55 farms and markets in the riding of Durham. They’re all prizewinners, and they are all listed in the Durham Farm Fresh directory. These are farms, orchards and gardens where we can harvest the rewards of buying outstanding local food. This is unfair because there is little difference between farms that ship their produce to the consumer or those that encourage the consumer to come to the farm.

In addition, these so-called commercial operations are often seasonal and should not pay the same taxes as year-round commercial businesses in cities.

I urge the House to support local agriculture and rural Ontario by reconsidering how to apply commercial tax rules to farm-based businesses today in Ontario.

This is truly an attack on rural Ontario—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

HAMILTON URBAN CORE

COMMUNITY HEALTH CENTRE

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Nickel Belt.

M me France Gélinas: Thank you for your indulgence, Speaker.

Today I want to make a statement on the Hamilton Urban Core Community Health Centre. Everybody agrees: Hamilton Urban Core Community Health Centre delivers the highest-quality care to marginalized and complex populations. They serve people who live in poverty. Many of them are newcomers; many of them are part of a racialized community.

Four different studies have been done about the care by Hamilton Urban Core, including one from ICES, and all of them agree: They do fantastic work and they keep people out of our hospitals.

The centre is old, overcrowded and has a problem with mould, and everybody agrees they need to move into a new facility. Now the LHIN says that they need to move into a facility that is smaller than what they have now.

In order to solve this problem, the LHIN had ordered an operational review. So far, all is good; the centre is happy. Unfortunately, the approach that the LHIN has taken to make that review seems that they’re bound and determined on finding something wrong with the centre, on finding an excuse to move the services away from those marginalized people who need this services. Staff have started to leave the centre or decrease their hours because of the action of that LHIN.

Everybody agrees that Hamilton Urban Core gives good care. They need a new facility. The minister needs to take responsibility and make sure that this happens.

BANGLADESHI HINDU

COMMUNITY CENTRE

Mr. Lorenzo Berardinetti: It gives me great pleasure to rise today in the House to share my experiences at a Bengali event that took place in the riding of Scarborough Southwest.

Toronto Durgabari is located in my riding on Birchmount Road and is a registered charity. Since 2009, Toronto Durgabari has played a very important role in the Bangladesh community. They provide social, cultural and religious support for both native-born Bengalis and to newcomers to adjust to life here in Ontario.

I attended an event on October 11, where I was greeted by over 300 people. I experienced fantastic cuisine and was lucky enough to be invited to take

part in the festivities.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the organizers, including Shakti Deb, for organizing this event and for promoting their culture to the broader community in Scarborough Southwest.

REFORESTATION

Mr. Bill Walker: I rise today to recognize two constituents whose efforts are helping to make Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound even more green. Bill and Mable Almond of Meaford have planted close to 32,000 trees on 50 acres, creating a new forest to complement their hardwood bush overlooking the Niagara Escarpment.

Their tree-planting project was recently recognized by Trees Ontario, who bestowed the couple with a Green Leader award.

The Almond family is the second one from my riding to be named Trees Ontario’s Green Leaders. The first was Georgina and Ron Klages of Chesley.

The Almonds began planting trees in 2012 as part of the Ontario government’s 50 Million Tree program, administered by Trees Ontario, and then worked with the Grey Sauble Conservation Authority to prepare and coordinate the planting.

The goal of the 50 Million Tree program is to reduce carbon footprints, diversify Ontario’s landscape, increase wildlife habitat as well as improve soil and water conservation.

Speaker, I believe this award is very fitting for Bruce and Grey, reflecting on the region’s proud history in furniture manufacturing. It was home to the Krug Bros. furniture manufacturing family, who owned the furniture factory, sawmills and bush farm in Chesley for 101 years and employed over 600 people at its peak. Despite the closure of the factory in 1987, the Krug family continue to be regarded as pioneers and leaders in the reforestation of Bruce and Grey counties.

Other notable furniture manufacturers that continue to play a tremendous role in the vitality of our beautiful rural communities are Durham Furniture in Durham; Bogdon Gross Furniture in Walkerton, in my colleague Lisa Thompson’s Huron–Bruce riding; and GRS Wood Products in Chesley.

I’d be remiss, Mr. Speaker, if I did not mention Southampton Furniture Co., as it had once had a factory in my home village of Hepworth.

Of course, there are countless other constituents in my riding who employ good environmental and conservation practices every day by planting more trees on their property and being good land stewards.

This is why Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound is renowned for having the prettiest backyard and some of the most diverse outdoor opportunities in Ontario.

HERB EPP

Hon. John Milloy: Mr. Speaker, I believe that you will find that we have unanimous consent to pay tribute to Mr. Herb Epp, a former member of this Legislature from the former riding of Waterloo North, with a representative from each caucus speaking for up to five minutes.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The government House leader is seeking unanimous consent to do a tribute to Herb Epp. Do we agree? Agreed.

Mr. Ted Arnott: I feel so very honoured to have this chance this afternoon to say a few words about the outstanding public service of Herbert Arnold Epp, who cared so much for his community that he became known to everybody as “Mr. Waterloo.” On behalf of our leader, Tim Hudak, and my Ontario Progressive Conservative colleagues, we welcome you, Jane, and the other members of your family who have joined us here today.

It’s so appropriate that you are all here, for we remember Herb first and foremost as a family man, as good and decent a gentleman as this place has ever seen. We remember him secondly as a man whose devotion to his province and his vision of a better Ontario led him to seek election to this Legislature in 1977, after effectively serving in local government. But for Herb Epp, his family always came first.

Herb and Jane were blessed with two children of their own. David and Sarah grew up with their dad in politics, first as an alderman, Waterloo regional councillor, mayor of the city of Waterloo, and MPP for Waterloo North for 13 years, through four provincial elections, all of which he won. But Herb also had a distinguished career as a high school teacher before he was elected, and he was a successful realtor after he decided not to seek re-election to this place in 1990.

But as we all know, he wasn’t yet done with elected public service, and he made an amazing comeback in 2003 to be elected mayor of the city of Waterloo for another term, something like 28 years since he was first elected mayor.

While it turned out that Herb was departing the Legislature in 1990, the same year that I was fortunate to be first elected, I actually came to know him fairly well. Our first encounter was in the early 1980s, when I was still a student at Wilfred Laurier University in Waterloo and still open-minded enough to want to go and hear the Ontario Liberal leader, David Peterson, and the local MPPs, Her