Manitoba Hansard — 8 January 1990 (Sitting 98A, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-98a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, January 8, 1990. T he House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REP ORTS Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Minister of Labour): am pleased to table the Annual Report 1988-89 of the Manitoba Labour Board. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement to make to the House. I am very pleased to inform this House that the backlog of cases in Provincial Court in Winnipeg has been eliminated.

To underline the degree of achievement for Honourable Members, I can say that the majority of cases making first appearance in court this week will come up for trial any time between March 1 and May 30. This means that we are now scheduling trials for earlier this year than we were able to do last May, when the first steps to eliminate the backlog were taken. This is a vast improvement from last year when the time between the laying of charges and the trial date could be anywhere from 12 to 14 months.

In order to eliminate the backlog, two factors were required, and I am proud to inform Honourable Members that both were present. First, we needed a structure and procedures to manage and track cases from the moment of generation to trial. This was accomplished first through the reorganization of the Public Prosecutions Division and shortly thereafter by development and introduc tion of the necessary procedures. They will go a long way toward ensuring that the backlog does not recur.

Second but no less important was the willingness of Crown attorneys, Crown assistants, their support staff and staff of Provincial Court to put in enormous extra effort to attack the backlog. Among the main administrative tasks were examining and setting trial priorities for cases, scheduling trials and ensuring maximum use of courtrooms and most efficient use of courtrooms and most efficient use of staff.

I am also proud to report that over the past several months our Crown attorneys have gone far beyond the call of duty in reviewing thousands of cases, discussing with defence lawyers and eliminating cases that were resolvable without trials. The case reviews with defence lawyers helped speed up trials by increasing the degree of agreement on trial issues and thereby reducing the number of procedural disputes in court.

Provincial Court staff and provincial judges ensured that courtrooms and court staff were used to maximum efficiency. * (133 5) I want to express personal appreciation for the work of all those who contributed to the success of this challenging work and this challenging task. I am confident the factors that helped eliminate the backlog will help us to refine our case management system further and also enhance the high level of service of our courts to all Manitobans. Mr. Paul Edwards (S t. James): Mr.

Speaker, it is with pleasure that I respond to the statement by the Minister today with respect to the court backlog. After 12 months of suggestions from this side and three false starts, a plan was finally put into place and that plan appears to have yielded results. I am sad to say that unfortunately the court backlog in St. Boniface still persists notably. We are looking forward to the Minister, after years of problems in St. Boniface and indeed a continued problem, coming to grips with the reality of French language services in our courts and the absolute right of people to be tried in French in the St.

Boniface Courts, indeed the courts ali across this province. In addition, I might add in specific reference to the Minister's statement that the trial dates are being set now within reasonable periods of time. It is essential, and I simply bring to the Minister's attention that the trials be ready to go forward at the trial date. One of the problems which unfortunately has occurred is that particulars have not been forwarded in sufficient time to in fact use that trial date.

If Crown attorneys do not have sufficient support staff or indeed suffic ient numbers amongst themselves to provide particulars to defence counsel, those trial dates cannot be used and the whole thing becomes indeed a facade. That I do not believe is the case as yet. It is a problem which has arisen. I look forward to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae) addressing that problem in concert with the achievements which have already been gained. In conclusion, I might say that it is certainly in the interests of all Manitobans to have speedy trials, both the public at large and obviously the accused. Thank you. Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): It is an honour to rise on the statement of the Honourable Minister today. Often this Chamber is typified by negative comments and I want to say to the Attorney General that we appreciate the statement of his department today and the co-operation from the chief of the Provincial Court judges, which I think was an excellent appointment and I said so at the time, and the work of Crown attorneys and defence lawyers to work on the backlog within our system. 4080

Monday, January 8, 1990 I also want to say that the appointment made by the Government over the Christmas week of Graeme Garson I thought was an excellent appointment and I want to say that for the record as well. Mr. Speaker, the key to expediting court procedures in time for trials is less crime. We are pleased that the numbers are dropping, but we would note even as we speak today about reducing crime in our streets that there are groups such as Block Parents that are in a very critical situation. We hope the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Mccrae) is looking at those needed volunteers that have been established and are working in our communities across the province to prevent crime and to work with community-based groups in our social and economic fibre in this province. I also want to note, Mr. Speaker, that the Government did promise to have an expedited procedure for prosecutions for persons alleged to be committing crimes of violence. I have not yet seen in 19 or 20 months any announcement for what I believe to be one of the top priorities in our criminal justice system.

There are those persons alleged to have committed violent crimes against persons, and I would ask the Attorney General (Mr. Mccrae) to take action in that regard rather than just coming out with these announcements which I would agree are positive for all Manitobans. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Village at Portage Place Public Auction Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): My question is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon). For the last number of months, the Liberal Party has been ringing alarm bells about the lack of accountability and direction of the two major downtown revitalization corporations.

In the past week, Manitobans have seen ample evidence from both the North Portage Development Corporation's attempt to preserve one monument and The Forks Renewal Corporation's decision to create another. My question is to the Premier. Will he tell us if there have been any discussions by himself or any of his Ministers about stopping the public auction to sell the village at Portage Place? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I can first thank the Member for his question and tell him that I have been absent from the city for a week, and I am not aware of any discussions that have taken place.

I know that the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ducharme) has also been absent for this past week, so I cannot tell him of any discussions that may have taken place in that regard. Village at Portage Place Public Auction Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, the Acting Minister though has been here and has made certain comments so that I would direct my supplementary question to him.

The president of the North Portage Development Corporation has indicated that he will step in to prevent the public auction, while the Acting Minister of Urban Affairs said only two or three days ago that the North Portage Development Corporation does not have the authority or the funds to do so, a sentiment that was echoed just the other day by the federal Minister responsible. * ( 1340) My question is very simple to the Minister: how does he explain these contradictory statements? Hon.

Jim Ernst (M inister of Indust ry, Trade and Touris m): I can tell my honourable friend from Fort Rouge that I did not say they did not have the authority. I said I was not aware of the ins and outs of the agreement between the North Portage Development Corporation and the three levels of Government, the intimate details. I did say, however, I thought it was somewhat unique if that corporation were to go and buy out the first mortgage held by MHR C. Mr. Speaker, I also indicated that the Minister of Housing (Mr.

Ducharme) would return to the city tonight and that he would be available to discuss that matter with the North Portage Development Corporation. Mr. Carr: My question is to the Acting Minister: who will make the decision? Will the decision about whether to throw new public dollars after this failed project be made by the board of directors appointed by three levels of Government or made by the politicians themselves who ultimately must be accountable for the expenditure of public funds? Who will make the decision, this Government or the appointed bureaucrats? Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister. Mortgage Documentation Request Mr. James Carr (Fort Roug e): Mr. Speaker, just to remind the Minister, the clock is ticking because the public auction is scheduled for January 24. The president of the North Portage Development Corporation has said publicly that the deal between the corporation and the developer includes land rent only as long as the corporation holds the mortgage. If it goes to public auction, they may lose the mortgage, therefore, 75 years of land rent. Will the Minister or the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) agree to make that document public today so that all Members of this House and the people of Manitoba will know just how high the poker stakes are in this game? Hon. Jim Ernst (M inister of Indust ry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister and he will respond in due course. The Forks Renewal Corporation Hotel Conversion Mr. James Carr (Fort Roug e): Mr. Speaker, I have a related but new question to the Premier. Accountability 4081

Monday, January 8, 1990 is not only a problem at the North Portage Development Corporation, but obviously this kind of attitude has slipped across the street to the Forks as well. The chairman of the Forks Corporation says that they are private and independent, and whenever anyone asks a question you get the runaround and finger pointing between different levels of Government and between the bureaucrats and the politicians. Does the Premier support the decision to convert an old warehouse building on the site to a hotel at a time when the hotel industry is Manitoba is suffering? Hon. Gary Filmon (Prem ier): Mr.

Speaker, I remind the Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr) that his good friend and mentor, Mr. Lloyd Axworthy, was one of the people who set up the mechanisms that prevail for instance in North Portage and in the core area and so on and set up that kind of trilevel corporation with some semi arm's-length responsibility. If he is unhappy with the way in which those corporations have been � set up, perhaps he should have had those discussions ' with Mr. Axworthy at the time when he had some influence on the process. Mr.

Speaker, the corporation is looking at the various alternatives for investment and development there. The corporation has decided in its wisdom that this is the best use of the land and the most appropriate type of land use for development there. Those are things that are within their jurisdiction and within their purview. Those are matters that he ought to perhaps address more directly in terms of the corporation itself. If he is unhappy with the proposals that are being put forth, he can contact the corporation and let them know. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, the Premier has just proved my point.

I asked a question about the use of public funds and his answer was go talk to the corporation who made that decision in its wisdom. We are interested in the wisdom of the Premier of this province who is responsible for the expenditure of public money and he is passing the buck and not giving it to us. � Future Development Moratorium Mr. James Carr (Fort Rou g e): There is growing concern that the Forks had strayed away from its mandate to give special significance to the confluence of the Red and the Assiniboine River.

Will the Premier today give his Governme nt's commitment to a moratorium on all future development projects at the Forks until there is another round of public consultation and a chance for some sober second thought to prevail? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr) has decided that there is growing public concern and that the answer is to stop all development at The Forks Renewal Corporation.

I am not aware that the public is supportive of the statement that he makes and alleges as fact. * ( 1345) Certainly if there are growing public concerns about the mandate and the decisions that are being made by the Renewal Corporation, I think that is a matter that can be reviewed by the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme), who is the representative partner from the provincial Government on the Corporation. I am sure that he will keep close contact with the public and those interested parties who have those concerns, and respond adequately to them. Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): I remember a great deal of difficulty in us getting the public land from the CNR through former Governments. I hope quite frankly, Mr. Speaker, that people like Alan Artibise, who we had on the board of directors before, are the type of people that the provincial Government has on the board of directors so we do not have this forced march development at The Forks development area.

The Premier should note that his own Clerk of Cabinet is on the board of directors and clearly has three members of the board who can veto everything, including the Minister, under the terms of the agreement. Human Rights Code Racist Pins Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposit ion): My question is to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae) dealing with the pins, the alleged racist pins, that are now being placed in Manitoba and sold in the Province of Manitoba .- (interjection)- The Government has made-this is a very serious issue. I wish I would not have heckling from the Liberal benches on this issue. Mr.

Speaker: Order , plea se; order, please. The argument being-the fact is your postamble has absolutely nothing to do with the question that you are posing. That is out of order. This is not a time for debate. Mr. Doer: It is a very serious subject, Mr. Speaker. The Attorney General (Mr. Mccrae) has made public statements on the possible sale and the actual sale of the pins in the Province of Manitoba. I think every new immigration period has suffered with a backlash towards new immigrants, whether it was after the First World War or after the Second World War.

I would ask the Minister of Justice whether he plans on prosecuting or developing an investigation under

Section 18 of the Manitoba Human Rights Code dealing with the sale and distribution of the pins in Manitoba. Hon. James McCrae (Mi nister of Justice and Attorney General): I agree with you, Mr. Speaker, that the question may not have been totally properly put, but I do agree with the Honourable Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) that the matter he raises should be viewed with a measure of seriousness on the part of all Honourable Members. The issue is before my department. My department is interested in the issue and there is an investigation going on to resolve the matter.

I have not personally to this point seen the pin myself, but I have asked my department to review the matter and deal with it appropriately. Mr. Doer: Certainly we pledge our Party's support for that investigation and the possible utilization of

Section 18 of the Manitoba Human Rights Code. 4082

Monday, January 8, 1990 Rafferty-Alameda Dam Project Environmental Impact Study Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposit ion): My question is a new question to the Premier (Mr. Filmon), or a supplementary question to the Premier dealing with the Rafferty-Alameda Dam. We have had obviously in 19 months conflicting messages of whether we are going to have an environmental impact study, whether we are going to have intervention in the courts, whether we are not going to have intervention in the courts, whether the technical study is adequate, whether the technical study is inadequate, Mr.

Speaker. * ( 1350) I have asked the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to give us the definitive and the latest word on his Government's dealing with the Raffert y-Alameda Dam. Has he forwarded any correspondence to the federal Minister of Environment to not allow the federal Government to appeal the court decision so that Manitobans can get what they have been entitled to? That has been a full environmental review of the Rafferty- Alameda project. Hon. Glen Cu mmings (Mini ster of Environment): Mr.

Speaker, the Government of Manitoba has put together correspondence to Saskatchewan and to the federal Department of Environment, to the federal Minister, Mr. Bouchard.

We have reiterated the concerns that we had that we expressed last summer in Souris, that a full environmental impact study be done on this project and that we encourage them to proceed and get that job done, because that will guarantee what was offered to us when the licence was first reissued to this structure, and that is that the completion of the environmental impact studies on the Souris, including the impacts on Manitoba, would be completed. Mr. Doer: Our problem has never been with the Government's comments in Souris.

It was the Government's comments the day the federal Minister denied the full environmental impact study and issued the licence in Saskatchewan simultaneous to the bulldozers going ahead and the Minister refusing to join the Wildlife Federation and other organizations when that licence was issued, in terms of defending Manitobans. Legal Intervention Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question then to the Minister is, if the federal Government does not appeal this decision or proceeds with this decision and it goes back to court, will the Government now intervene on behalf of Manitobans against the federal Government in court and join the Wildlife Federation and other environmental groups? Hon. Glen Cu mming s (Mi nister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, it certainly is a hypothetical issue that the Member raises.

We are faced today with the opportunity to have the guarantee of the assessments done on the Souris River, which has been our main concern, so that we know what impacts there may be so that they can be mitigated or corrected. That is the way that we have chosen to protect the interests of Manitoba. We have taken every possible means to make sure that those interests are protected. When the licence was issued, we had to make sure that we could do the very best in getting th e assessments done. That is the reason that we chose to work on the guarantees from the federal Government to have the assessments completed.

We have chosen not to go to court with our neighbouring provinces on this issue, and that is still the position of th is Government. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the only thing that is not hypothetical is when the Government, the federal Government, the Tory Government, makes a decision and it is in the best interests of Saskatchewan, this Government sits on the sidelines and allows Manitobans to be shafted in terms of the environmental impact studies in this province.

My question then to the Minister of Environment is this: why has he ruled out going to court when he has asked the federal Minister not to appeal the decision of the courts? Why has he ruled out the decision to go to the courts if his Premier has stated correctly that a full environmental impact study is necessary? Wh y is he not fighting with every means possible to protect Manitobans as the Wildlife Federation is and other interested environmental groups? Mr. Cum mings: Mr. Speaker, the responsibility to make sure that the Souris River is protected is our responsibility.

That is the direction that we are taking. He is putting forward a hypothetical situation in talking about whether or not we have asked the federal Government to appeal. We have asked the federal Government and the Province of Saskatchewan to suspend construction until the assessments are completed. That will look after the interests of the Souris River. VIA Rail Cutbacks Manitoba Jobless Statistics Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Next Monday will be a sad day for Manitobans and indeed all Canadians, because a week from today the VIA cuts will take effect in our province.

Although our entire Manitoba economy will suffer because of those cuts, the hardest hit will be the employees who will lose their jobs and their families. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labour (Mrs. Hammond). Can the Minister of Labour tell the House how many Manitoba employees will lose their jobs in this province next Monday and how many will be transferred out of rural communities as a result of these cuts? Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Mini ster of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! 4083

Monday, January 8, 1990 Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Mrs. Carstairs: We have been told that upwards of 1, 000 people will lose their jobs because of these cuts, and the Minister does not have any idea what the answer is? labour Adjustment Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (leader of the Opposition ): Can the Minister tell us, if she does not know any numbers, what kind of training programs and retraining programs she has established in order to enable these individuals losing their jobs to be re-employed in the Province of Manitoba? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. The Honourable Minister of Labour. Hon.

Gerrie Hammond (Min ister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, our Worker Adjustment Committee has been in touch with the federal department for a worker adjustment unit. I do not believe that has been set up with the province as of yet, but I will answer that question as of tomorrow. * (13 55) Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, as usual you know we try to address problems after the horses are already out of the barn in this province. That is the tragedy of Tory administration in the Province of Manitoba. VIA Rail Cutbacks Cost to Manitoba Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, with my final supplementary question to the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Albert Driedger), who has said in letters to Manitobans that these cuts could cost us $50 million, can the Minister of Highways tell us today and provide to us today a detailed accounting of the cost to this province of VIA cutbacks in Manitoba? Hon. Albert Driedger (M ini ster of High ways and Transportation}: Mr. Speaker, I have to indicate to the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) that the detailed information in terms of the full impact is something that I will try and get to her by tomorrow.

In the meantime, I have to indicate that over a period of time, when the first comments were made in terms of the proposed cuts at that time, I have a whole list of all the things that we have done as Government in terms of raising the concerns of Manilobans, the impact on Manitobans and Canadians. Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, a lot of the concerns that we have expressed have fallen on deaf ears. We are still waiting for some decisions from the federal Minister when we went down to raise the concerns with them about the impact on Manitobans.

We hope that there are still going to be some positive things coming out of it. 4084 Public Utilities Board Gas Rate Review Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): Someday the Tories will learn that nobody listens to Tories when they speak, not even Tories. My question, Mr. Speaker , is for ' the Minister responsible for the Public Utilities Board. The role of the Public Utilities Board is clearly one that provides protection to Manitoba consumers. The PUB provides an open forum for the general public as it serves to monitor and regulate utility price increases.

We all support the role that they provide and want to maintain the highest level of confidence. My question to the Minister responsible is, how does the Minister expect to maintain the integrity of the PUB when they have to approv e-they have in fact approved-the third gas rate increase in four months while admitting they did not have the time to analyze the figures presented properly? Hon. Edw ard Connery (M inis ter of Co-oper ative , Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, the Member once again I guess is reading the newspaper

article which says that they did not have time. They gave it the full review that an interim report would get. As the Member knows, when they had the previous rate hearing they were told that if the rates were not sufficient that they would be allowed an interim hearing, which they were granted. The people of Manitoba have had an opportunity to present themselves to the hearing, which they did. The Consumers' Association and the Manitoba Society of Seniors made representation to the hearing. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert, with a supplementary question. Mr. Ang us: Mr.

Speaker, the report from the PUB says: "Due to the limited time available, the board was unable to review this issue to its complete satisfaction." Why did this Minister not, given that The Public Utilities Accountability Act allows Cabinet to appoint experts to assist the PUB, provide the assistance required instead of putting the Public Utilitie s Board in a compromising position? Mr. Connery: Mr. Speaker, the Public Utilities Board was not in a compromising position. The Public Utilities Board at all times has the power and the wherewithal to hire whatever expertise is required.

They do not come to the Minister looking to get expertise. They have that expertise available to them and they make use of it. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, please. The Honourable Minister. Mr. Connery: Mr. Speaker, in June there will be another rate hearing following audited statements from the utility. There will be another hearing which will verify

Monday, January 8, 1990 those rates. It is an interim rate. If the rates were in excess of what should have been, they can be refunded and the Public Utilities Board has stated that. *

(1400) Resources Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert, with his final supplemental question. Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): This leads to the question as to when did it last happen, Mr. Speaker. The real question is, will the Minister, given that these Cabinet colleagues have committed to the reviewing of the Conawapa project, as an example, assure Manitobans that he will personally see to it that the PUB is afforded the time and the resources to completely analyze this type of a deal on behalf of the consumers of Manitoba who deserve the protection? Hon.

Edward Connery (Minis ter of Co-opera tive, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): The Public Utilities Board is an arm's-length board that is appointed and will not be interfered with by Government. Mr. Speaker, the Public Utilities Board has available to them all of the expertise that is required. On an ongoing basis, they hire the experts to do the analyses for them and they take the time that is required. The Public Utilities Board has the ability to make a proper decision and have done so and will continue to do so. Carbon Monoxide Poisoning Inspector Reinstatement Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to. the Minister of Labour (Mrs. Hammond). Last year her predecessor, the Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Connery), stated that he was in favour of cutting the minimum wage for youth in this province, and he also cut the funding for the Labour Education Centre, and also he wanted all the warning labels to dangerous goods gutted, and he also eliminated the gas inspectors.

In view of the recent death in the apartment building in Winnipeg as a result of carbon monoxide poisoning, will the Minister reverse the position of the previous Minister and reinstate the gas inspectors in this province? Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Min ister of Labour) : In light of the death at the apartment building on College Avenue, my department is reviewing the inspection of boilers and of the chimneys. Mr. Harapiak: Mr. Speaker, I hoped that the inspectors will be, due to the important role they play, reinstated. Labour Education Centre Funding Reinstatement Mr.

Harry Harapiak (The Pas): Due to the importance of the rolf:! played by the Labour Education Centre, I am wondering if the Minister would now reinstate the funding for the Labour Education Centre and also restore the previous warning labels that affected the dangerous goods in this province? Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Min ister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, we are meeting regularly with the Manitoba Federation of Labour and other labour affiliates. We certainly are working with them when programs come up that they would like some help with.

One was the anti-racism campaign that they had asked the Government for some help in funding. Through the Department of Cultural Affairs and Labour, we have supplied a person plus office space, and so we are working co-operatively with labour in this province. Solvit Resources Inc. Fire Commissioner Report Mr. Speaker : The Honourable Member for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak), with his final supplementary question. Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, my final question is to the Minister of Labour (Mrs.

Hammond). � Will the Minister today release the report from the commissioner's office dealing with the Solvit fire in St. Boniface? Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Mi nister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, we will be releasing that report tomorrow. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Carbon Monoxide Poisoning Chimney Inspection Policy Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, my question also concerns the tragic incident that occurred Christmas eve at 285 College Avenue in this city involving some 21 people, one of whom died, two of which remain in critical condition, with respect to the carbon monoxide poisoning. Mr. Speaker, this Minister says she is reviewing the policies. She reviewed the carcinogen policy now for four months. She has been reviewing the Solvit incident in St. Boniface for seven months. Is this the type of action that we can expect of this Minister on this incident?

Wh y is she not prepared today to put a plan before this House as to how we can make sure that incident, the carbon monoxide poisoning of Manitobans, never happens again? Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Minis ter of Labour): Mr. Speaker, unlike the Member across the floor, I would not like to bring in a policy that is going to make matters worse. We want to bring in something that will make things better. We will bring in recommendations so that type of thing hopefully does not happen again.

Unlike the Members across the floor, we can never say never, but we will do our best to make sure that we protect people's lives in Manitoba. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, the real tragedy is that this incident could have been prevented by a $119 machine, 4085

Monday, January 8, 1990 which has recently been developed and is avai lable now, has been for over half a year, and was developed in consult ation with the Atomic Energy Commission of Canada. Why is this Min ister no t willing to ind icate to Ma ni tobans what her pla n is to pr event th ese occu rrences, gi ven th at the technolo gy is available, it is cost effective, and Manitobans are put at ris k by inspectors who do not check chim neys in this province? Mrs. Hammond: Mr. Speaker, we will be bringing in a polic y and a reco mmendation on the very things tha t this Mem ber is mentioning.

As far as the tech nology is concerned , we really have to look into that type of thing and cert ainly wi ll. Mr. Speaker: The Honour able Member for St. James, with his final supplem entary question. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker , 145 people di ed in this countr y between 1973 and 19 82, specifically due to this type of incide nt.

My question to the Min ister is: will she today commit to within the next week com ing forward to this Ho use with a plan as to wha t can be done to ensure tha t chim neys tha t are not accessible are inde ed checked for venting pur poses, so tha t we kno w when an apartment building do es not have car bon monoxide venting? Mrs. Hammond: Mr. Speaker, we will be bringing in a pol ic y to tha t very effect. VIA Rail Cutbacks Labour Adjustment Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Sp eaker, I was shocked to hear the Minis ter of Labour (Mrs.

Hammond) jus t admit a few moments ago tha t she has taken no act ion to meet with the VIA emplo yees, the representatives, VIA Rail or the federal departments to deter mine what kind of assistance her department could provide to the emplo yees who are affected at VIA Rail as a result of the massive layoffs tha t are taking pl ace. We have seen massiv e layoffs at CN as well as in other areas and this Min ister , despite the fact tha t we asked for her to intervene, has not taken act ion.

I ask her at this time to tell this House why she did not see fit to conta ct th ese people who are affected and their families to det ermine how she cou ld assi st. Her department could assist those worker s in transition as a result of the loss es of th ose jobs by decisions made by their Conservative Go vernment in Ottawa. Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Mi nister of labour): The Honourable Member has made an assu mption tha t is not corr ect. We did conta ct VIA Rail immedia tely that the employees and the employers, as is requir ed, to gi ve any assistance tha t we could. They were not ready to take tha t assistan ce.

If the Mem ber, and I am sur e he do es, knows anything about uni ons and reg ul at ions at all with the railroads, he would kno w tha t there is a bumpin g effect that comes into effect and, unti l you get do wn the road , you do not kno w which of the employees will be laid off. With that in mind, we certai nly are prepared and will be wor king with any of the emplo yees from VIA Rail who need it . VIA Rail Cutbacks Labour Adjustment Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Dauphin, with a supp lementary question. Mr. John Plohman (Da uphin) : Mr .

Sp eaker , this Minis ter is the Minis ter of Labour , not the Minis ter responsible for corpora tions . She should be meeti ng with the workers who are affected. We are dealing with layoffs in five days. I ask the Min ister of Hig hways and Transpor tation (Mr. Al bert Driedger). He indic ates that he has provided all kinds of correspo ndence to the federal Min ister protest ing the decisions there. I ask him whether he has talked with his colleague who has some ju risdiction in this area and asked her to intervene to assist tho se workers tha t will be affected . *

(1410) Hon. Albert Dried g er (Minis ter of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I have all the confidenc e in the Minis ter of Labour (Mrs. Hammond) to look after the concerns of the people of Ma nitoba and the workers tha t are affected. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Fare Increases Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Sp eaker, I ask this Minis ter , since he says he ha s made so much representation, what representation has he made to the federal Government and with his western colleagues to protest these massive and di scrimina tor y increases in VIA Rail fares tha t have taken pla ce, tha t were annou nced by the federal Con servat ive Govern ment? Wha t rep res entation has he made to stop th ese di scri minatory incr eases to western Canada? Hon. Albert Dried g er (Minis ter of Hig hways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I want to express my appr ecia tion for tha t question. I will list the items as he has asked them.

On Septe mber 27 when the VIA Rail service cuts were annou nced , we made representation at tha t time, and we had con tact on Sept ember 8, Augus t 4, Jul y 28, July 11, June 23, June 16, May 23, May 4, April 26 and April 7. Mr. Speaker, if the Mem ber wants, I could read the kind of corre spondence tha t has taken pla ce if I was allo wed the time. If not, I have forwarded most of the information on the representation tha t I made, and the Member is well aware of tha t. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, pl ease. Sturgeon Road Speed Reduction Mrs.

Iva Yeo (Stur g eon Creek): The carnage on Stur geon Road must be add ressed by this Go vernment. 4086

Monday, January 8, 1990 On Ch ristmas Eve, tour members of one family were kill ed, along with a young mother in the other car. A young mother of two involved in another accident in June is now a quadraplegic, 38 acciden ts on one portion of the road , termed death mile by the police force, an incr ease of 93 percent in the number of vehi cles per day tr avelling Stu rgeon Road. My question to the Minis ter of Hig hways is this : will the Min ister urge the reductio n of the speed limi t from 90 kph before further tragedies oc cur? Hon. Albert Drie dger (Minis ter of Hig hways and Transportation): Mr.

Speaker , I think everybody is sad dened when th ese kinds of accidents happen on any hig hways, whether it is the city's jur isd iction or provi ncial jur isdic tion, and most cert ainly if any thing can be done to avoid the se kinds of thi ngs, certai nly from our point of view we will do tha t and I kno w that the people from the Cit y of Wi nnipeg do as well.

Addr essing the specific question on th at stretch of highw ay, th ere is a process in pla ce thr ough the High way Traffic Board in terms of asking tor a reduc tion in terms of the speed limi t, and the portion where some of the se accidents happ en is wi thin the jur isd ic tion of the Cit y of Wi nnipeg. Most certainly I have made my staff aware of our por tion of the concern tha t we have the re. We will be addr essi ng it joi ntly with the ci ty, but the request has to be made by the Cit y of Wi nnip eg in terms of asking for a reduction in the speed limi t. Responsibility Mr.

Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber tor Stu rgeon Creek, with a supple mentary quest ion. Mrs. Iva Yeo (Stur geon Creek): Mr. Speaker, will the Minis ter of Hig hways (Mr. Al bert Drie dger) review the sta tistic s of the past few years and consider the long sta nding request of the Rossmere Mun icipal ity since 197 4 tor the pr ovince to take over respo nsibili ty of tha t

part icula r stretch of the high way north of Selkirk Avenue? Hon. Albert Driedg er (Min is ter of Hig hways and Transportation): The Min ister of Urb an Affa irs (Mr. Ducharme) and myself are in constant commun ication with the Cit y of Wi nnip eg in negot ia tions in terms of various roads tha t we are looking at taking over. We are work ing on some of the se programs tr yi ng to develop an agreement between the city and the province in terms of ju risdiction on certain roads, because some of the provi ncial roads are within the cit y lim its .

We are tr ying to work out some kind of an arrangement whereby we have a clear defi nite- how shall I say? We are tr yi ng to arrive at an agreement. For example, Hig hway 75 where it comes into the city portion of it is a two- lane hig hway. We are tryi ng to nego tia te tha t along with some other hig hways wi thin the city ju risd iction to see whether we can come to some ag reement. Cert ainl y we will escalate tha t based on the request made by the Mem ber. Sturgeon Road Widenin g Mr. Speaker: The Honour able Member for Stu rgeon Creek, with her final supp lementary question. Mrs.

Iva Yeo (Stur g eon Creek): I will ask the Acting Minis ter of Ur ban Affa irs, gi ven the fact tha t he was a city councillor for tha t particular area, if he wou ld also review the st atistics and co nsult with city engi neers regard ing early plans to widen Stu rgeon Road north of Ness Avenue, a corner tha t prod uced 54 accidents in 19 84, a number declar ed way out of propor tion by Mem bers of the tr affic di visi on? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minis ter of Industry , Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I will take the question as notice and pass the information along to the Minis ter of Ur ban Affairs (Mr. Duch arme).

Minister of Health Campaign Promises Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson ): Mr. Speak er, as we enter into 19 90, it has been increasingly clear tha t this Go vernment has not li ved up to its cam paign com mitments in terms of health care. They made eight major promis es in the 1988 election, and th ey have kept only one of them. Most funda mentally, th ey failed to bring in the health act ion plan tha t they prom is ed commencing in 1990. My question to the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is: is the Premier in agreement with the actions of his Minis ter of Health (Mr.

Orchard) in ignoring th ose campaign promis es, or will the Premier at least call the Minis ter of Health to order and star t demanding tha t he li ve up to campaign prom ises th at were made to the people of Manitoba, impor tant campaign promis es in the area of health tor Man itobans? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, a health act ion plan commencing in 19 90-a nd we are jus t in the fi rst week of 1990. We have another 51 weeks for it to commence. We will keep all of our campa ign commit ments within the time frame of a normal fou r-year Government.

We will accomplish all of the things tha t we have set forth. All we need is the supp ort of Opposition Parties to ensure that we have the time to accomplish all of th ose comm itments that we set forth in the last campaign - (i nterject io n)- Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Member for Thomps on, with a suppl ementary quest ion. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker , I hope the Premier is not counting on either a fu ll four years or even 51 weeks at the way this Go vernment is goi ng.

I wo uld like to ask the Premier -I look forward to see whether the Li berals have the gu ts to vote ag ains t the Go vernment on final offer selection. They are a great one for making comments from their seats. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! 4087

Monday, January 8, 1990 Manitoba Medical Association Negotiations Mr. Spea ker: Order , pl ease; ord er, ple ase. The Honourable Mem ber for Thompson. Mr. Steve Ashton (Th ompson): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) once agai n, in terms of the actions of this Go vernment on health care, a few weeks ago the Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) of the provinc e called do ctors "l iar s." He has taken a confronta tiona l att itude with health care profes sionals thr oughout his term as Health Min ister .

Has the Premier finally called the Min ister of Health in and asked him to apolog ize to the do ctors of this province and stop this confronta tional att itude of this Go vernment towards the health care providers of this provi nce? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , I gue ss the- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order. Ord er, please. The Honour able Fi rst Minis ter. Mr. Filmon: Mr. Sp eaker, I remind the Member for Thom pson (Mr.

Ashton) with his cavalier att itude tha t his admin istra tion, the NDP adminis tration of which he was a part, was in constant confl ic t with health care professionals. His Minis ter of Health told do ctors if the y did not like it in Manitoba the y cou ld leave. I sup pose he thought that was a good relationship tha t the y were building with the doctor s. The y were in conflict every time th ey had any dis cussions or negot ia tio ns.

Over and over and over agai n, his adminis tra tion was in confl ict with do ctors, nurses, health care profess ionals right across this province, chir op racto rs, every single one of them. The fact of the matter is tha t they eventual ly, when they sett led with the do ctors, sett led 11 and a half months after their agreement had expi red. The y went on and on and on, in the middle of an elect ion campaign with gr eat pressu re. Mr. Speaker, we need take no advice from tha t Member for Thom pson (Mr. Ashton) as to ho w to resolve issues in negotia tion. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Time for Oral Questions has expi red. NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT S Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): Ma y I have leave to make a non-polit ical statem ent? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honour able Me mber for The Pas have leave to make a non-pol itic al sta tement? (Agreed) The Honour able Member for The Pas. Mr. Harapiak : Mr. Sp eaker , the members of the Uk rainian co mmunity are in the midst of their Chris tmas celebra tion, and I wou ld li ke to cong ratu late members of the Ukr ai nian co mmuni ty who are now celebra ting their tr aditional Ch ristma s.

I was present at The Forks yesterda y when there was a gr eat disp lay of the trad itional music, dance and songs, and I wo uld like to add tha t my son, who is st udying danc e in the Uk raine, was present to partici pate as a member of the Rusalka Dancers yest erday. The Ukr ain ian-Chr istian celeb rations begin with trad itional 12 meatless dis hes, and their celebrations are based on the universal theme of Christ's bir th and peace and go odwi ll towa rds all people.

Ukr aini an New Years falls on the 13 th of Janu ary, and I wou ld like to clos e by the true traditional gr eeting, Kres tos Resdietcha, Sl ovit yaho and Sches levi No vay Reek. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks have leave to make a non-pol itical statem ent? (Ag reed) The Honour able Member for Seven Oaks. *

(1420) Mr. Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Members of the Chamber for gr anting leave. Indeed yesterd ay, Ukrainians around the world and many others of the or thodo x fai th, because it is inde ed an or thodo x Chr istmas,

part icipa ted and celeb rated Ch ristma s two weeks later fo llo wi ng the old calend ar. Mr. Speak er, central to the orthodo x celebra tion of Ch ris tmas is the im portance of the birth of Chr is t on that day, and that is central to the theme. It was indeed perhaps unfortu nate when many of us were going through many of the malls and so on in the pre Ch ristmas, the 25th of December Chr istmas peri od, that too infrequently did we see Chr ist as a central focus of Ch ris tmas.

I wo uld like to also add tha t in the Ukra inian tradition the giving of presents is usually held arou nd December 19, which is the day of Saint Ni chola s, the holy day of Saint Ni cholas, who was created a saint as he provided assistance and gi fts to childr en who li ved in his area many hundr eds of years ago. In tha t way, Ukrainians and many other orthodox around the world allo w the true focus of Ch ris tmas to be tha t of Jesus Christ. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honour able Minis ter of Educa tion (Mr.

Derkach) have leave to make a non pol itical state ment? (Agreed) The Honourable Min ister of Educa tion. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Min ister of Education): I too would like to join my honourable colle agues in wish ing all the Ukrainian people in Manitoba and inde ed throughout the world a very Merry Christma s and a Happy New Year. This is a time of the year when Ukrainians all over the world celeb rate Ch ristmas, as is it their tr adition that they brought with them when they came to Canada, when the y came to Man itoba .

Indeed, many of us who perhaps do not celeb rate Chris tmas at this time rejoic e at hearing the traditiona l Chr istmas carols tha t are sung not only on rad io but are sung th roughout the city and 4088

Monday, January 8, 1990 th ro ug hout this province. In my own langua ge, Ukr ainia n, I wou ld like to wish all of them a very Merry Ch ris tma s and a Happy New Year, Bazhayem vsheem Veseleh Svyat , Scha stya, Zdoro vlya i Veseloho No voho Roku. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY CO MMITT EE CHANGE Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I have a comm ittee subs titution. I move, seconded by the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), tha t the Stan din g Comm ittee on Municipal Affairs be amended as follo ws: the Member for Interlake (Mr. Uruski) for the Mem ber for Rup ertsland (Mr. Harper). Mr. Speaker: Agre ed. ***** Hon.

James McCrae (G overnment House Leader): Mr. Speaker, toda y the Estima tes process will include only the Department of Family Services in the Cham ber. As you kno w, the Standing Comm ittee on Mun icipal Affairs is meeting toda y at 3 p.m. I would move, seco nded by the Honourable Min ister of Fina nce (Mr. Manness), tha t Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Suppl y to be gr anted to Her Majesty. POINT OF ORDER Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): This is on a point of order before you leave. Before you leave the Chair , Mr.

Speaker, I understand Muni cipal Affairs is meeting in Room 255. Mr. Speaker: I wou ld like to thank the Honour able Go vernment House Leader for tha t clarifica tion. MOT ION presen ted and carrie d and the Hous e resolved itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Majesty with the Honour able Member for Minne do sa (Mr. Gill eshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Family Servic es. *

(1430) COM MITT EE OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-FAMILY SERVICES Mr. Chairman (H arold Gilleshammer): Order. The comm ittee will be deal ing in this sect ion with the Estima tes of the Department of Family Servi ces. We will beg in with an op ening sta tement from the Min ister respo nsible. The Honour able Minis ter. Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minis ter of Family Services): It gi ves me a gr eat deal of pleasur e to present for review the 1989-90 Estima tes for the Department of Famil y Services, the fi rst bud get Estima tes for this new department.

As you know, Premier Filmon annou nced on April 21, 19 89, as part of the reorgan iza tion of a number of Gov ernment departments, the creation of the new Depart ment of Fa mily Services, which combi nes respo nsibili ties for social services, income security and related emplo yment measures. The new department reflects our Government's focus on the impor tanc e of famil ies in society and our co mmitment to suppor t Ma nitoba famil ies to the gr eatest extent possi ble. This sup port takes the form of a broad range of services to keep family lif e strong in our province.

The new department also clearly establi shes a renewed commitment by our Gover nment to work with the many external agencies and community group s who have dedic ated thems elves to delivering servi ce. in partnership with Go vernment. This commitme nt began when we took of fice, resulting in a series of consulta tions and reviews with the com muni ty during the past year. Through this process, we have establi shed a future cou rse tor social service del ivery.

The task before us, which is reflected in our 19 89-90 Estima tes, is to beg in to align service deliv ery in acco rd ance with what Manitobans have said tha t th ey want and the y need. Before I beg in the review of our Estima tes, I would like to note tha t the 19 89-90 expenditur es sho wn in the pri nted Estima tes tor the Depar tment of Family Services refl ect areas of respo nsi bili ty which had formerly compris ed the Depart ment of Com munity Services and much of the Depart ment of Employment Servi ces and Economic Securi ty.

The reconcilia ti on state ment at the beginning of the detailed main Esti mates tor the Department of Family Servi ces summariz es th e adjustments made to the 1988-89 Estima tes in order to provide a proper comparison of last year's expendi tur es with the '89-90 bu dget for this new department. In addition to th ese changes, I recently annou nced a new organ iza tion struc tur e for the Department of Family Services, a reo rganiza tion which is intended to strengthen mana gement of the depar tment's respo nsibili ties and bring a fresh perspectiv e to some program areas.

The Mem bers should be aware tha t this means the department is no longer organ ized exact ly accord ing to the struc tur e shown in the bud get Estima tes which I expect the commit tee will follo w to conduc t this revi ew. The organ iza tion cha nges are not extensive ho wever and should no t cause undu e contusion. I will note the changes where appropria te to cl arity alter ed titl es or respons ibili ti es. For '8 9-90 we are proposing exp enditur es of $491,480,900 in my department. This represents an incr ease of about $41 million or 9. 1 percent over last year.

The addi tional money in this year's budg et will enable my department to maintain and in some cases incr ease sup port tor exis ting programs and also will allo w the Go vernment to launch a number of new initia tiv es. Ma jor funding increases have been app roved tor program areas tha t are a prio rity for our Go vernment. The se include child day care, wife ab use, child abus e and services tor handic apped people. The new initia tiv es 4089

Monday, January 8, 1990 we are pr opo sing will stren gthen areas of service del ivery which in our consultation with Manitobans we have fo und to be ina dequa te. Si nce th ese initia ti ves respond to the expr ess needs of the com munit y, we anticipa te they wi ll beco me a regu lar part of our futur e Estima tes. We are committed to funding a level of quality services that all Man itobans can access.

Commun ity Social Services: the programs and services wi thin the Commun ity Social Services Division of my depar tment, now called the Rehabil ita tion and Com munit y Living Division under the new department structure, are ta rgeted to ph ysi cally di sabled and mentally hand icapped adults and childr en and are del ivered through regional Go vernment offices and thr ough a number of external agencies and co mmunit y grou ps.

Payment is made from the department to external organ iza tions by way of gr ant fu nding to cover adminis tr ative and opera ting costs and thr ough per diem rates to cover the act ual cost of service del ivery to cl ients. For this fiscal year, funding for this di vision wi ll total $69.3 mil li on. This represents an increase of $4.5 million or 7 percent. Much of this additional money wi ll go toward general rate increases to pay for exis ting services for clients living in the com munity .

An in cr ease of jus t over 10 percent has been comm itted this year for services to mentally hand icapped and physically dis able d adults, bringing the 1989-90 bud get for this area to $35.4 mil lion . Our Go vernment has targeted most of this incr ease to im pro ve the care and safety of mentally hand icap ped indi viduals in resi dential care homes. Need for this imp rov ement was ident ified as a priority by the Wiens Report on residential care which was received by the depar tment in Febru ary of 19 89.

A major und erta king in this regard last year is the est ablishme nt of a compr ehensive trai ning pr og ram to up grade the sk ills of approxima tely 1,800 ind ividuals who work at various levels and in various di scipli nes with mentally hand icapped Manitobans . This initia tiv e is in respons e to the Wiens Report, which poi nted to the need for trai ning of dir ect service provid ers. The department has bud geted an additional $260,000 this year to im plement such tra in ing.

The tra ining program will consist of four parts: basic health care and safety, basic tra ining and devel opment, more advanc ed program ming and up gra ding, and sk ill enhancement for Go vernment staff. With respect to the Man itoba Developmental Centre, we will continue to make im provements as set out in last year's Ombudsman 's report. In August, I appoi nted an eight-member advisor y committee to the centre. The committee will provi de for gr eater com munity involvement in the del ivery of services to the centre's cl ients and reside nts.

As well, I would li ke to note that the Department of Go vernment Services is also commit ted to a seven year capital plan for the centre and will spend $8 million over this period for renovations, which will im pro ve the safety and co mfort of centre resident s. Last May, my department was pleased to sup por t a Speaker's Foru m, which ga ve di sable d people the oppor tun ity to express to all elected officials their concerns about access to services. The Sp eaker's Forum was modelled on a simi lar event in Ottawa sponsor ed by the Speaker of the House of Commons, which our Speaker atte nded.

My department contri buted financial sup port for this event, which also in clu ded a gala cel ebration highli ghting the creat ive talents of di sabled artis ts and performers. Immedia tely foll owi ng the Speaker's For um, I also announced our Government's intention to sup port the princi ples set out in the United Nations' declaration of the Decade of Disabled Persons. This sup por t invo lves our Go vernment's endorsing and faci li tating impr oved access to services by di sabled people. The Child and Family Servic es Division spending Estima tes for 1989-90 have been set at about $140 .5 mill ion.

This marks an incr ease of nearly $15 .6 mil lion or 11 percent over last year. Appro xima tely half of tha t amount wi ll go toward supporting and mai ntai ning exis ting programs in the areas of child and famil y support, child day care, family di spute services, and childr en's special services. Meanwh ile, an additional $7.8 million will be spent in suppor t of a number of new program ini tia tiv es.

I should note at this time, with the departmental reorgan iza tion, the respon sibil ity for child day care has been tran sferred from the Child and Family Services Division to another di vision now called Day Care, Youth and Emplo yment Sup por t. For budg et review purposes, we will consider day care with Child and Family Services as tha t is where its bud get is sho wn in the Est imates, but the Members should be aware tha t this trans fer has taken pla ce.

The Child and Family Supp or t Branch will receive about $77 million of the di vision 's budget, an incr ease of $7.9 milli on, or 11.4 percent over the previous year. Almo st $4.5 mi llion of tha t incr ease reflects increased su pp ort for reg ular and special rate foster care, including the increased sup port negotiated for foster parents last year. New init iat ives for the branch will primarily be in supp ort of child abus e services.

For this fiscal year, we plan to spend an add itional $560,000 to suppor t th ree child abus e init ia tiv es, which are consis tent with the recommendations in the Wi nnipeg Child Ab use Review. We have all ocated $1 20,000 of this amount for a new child ab use treat ment services tra ining program, which will be offered through the University of Manit oba's Psych olo gy Department .

The goal is to train 20 to 25 students annually from the pos t-gradua te social wor k and clinic al psy cholo gy programs to beg in to develop an adequate supply of trained therapis ts in Ma nitoba to work with abus ed chil dren and their famil ies. An im media te benefit of the prog ram is that services will be provided to as many as 15 0 famil ies in Winnipeg's core area through the clin ical aspect of the tra ining pr ocess. A further $250,000 has been desig nated this year to fund commun ity-based , multid isc iplina ry tr eatment pr ograms for ab used childr en and their famil ies.

These pr ograms will be ph ased in over a th ree-year period 4090

Monday, January 8, 1990 and will pr ovi de trea tment to childr en and famil ies who ha ve been referred by Child and Family Service agencies and by the depar tment's regio nal offices. The money will be made availabl e to external ag encies by way of gr ants. *

(1440) A hundr ed and ni nety thousand dolla rs has been all ocated to fund a program of su ppor t to victims of third -par ty sexual assau lt. This is an exis ting program ope rated by Childr en's Home of Wi nnip eg for which core area funding had run out and which we have agreed to continue funding. The value of this pr ogram, we belie ve, is tha t it treats not onl y the vic tim but works with the famil ies as well to achieve successful treatment. Through the program , parent advoca cy and sup port groups also have been developed to enable parents to work together to resolv e common problems.

We are also assu ming financial responsi bili ty for another small program tha t the United Ch urch Nativ e ministry fi rst ini tia ted . Known as Project Opikihi wewi n, it assists and suppor ts non-Na tive famili es who have adopted Native children. We are pr ovi ding $70,000 to maintain this program because of its im portance in provi ding special ized post-ad option services tha t deal with tran sracial issues. Another area in which our bud get sho ws a su bst antial incr ease in fu nding is Famil y Dispute Services.

We plan to spend over $4 million in this area in this current fiscal year, including over $1 milli on of new money targeted to suppor t the enrichment of wif e abus e shelters, crisis line expansion and enhancements to women's resou rce centres. This represents a 32. 7 percent increase in spendin g for this area over last year. This enhancement of women's sup por t services comes as a dir ect result of our Go vernment's Women's Initia tive, which tr avelled throughout the provinc e to garner public input on ways to impr ove women's programs and services.

One measure recommen ded by th e Wo men's Init iative, which I announ ced la st spring, is the decentral iza tion and expansion of crisis lin es in our province. My depar tment's 19 89-90 budg et reflects an incr ease of $389,000 to achie ve this imp roved service. The opera tion of the two new crisis lin es, which have been ins talled this fal l, will ensure tha t women who are abu sed can receive imme dia te at tention and are referred to services th at the y requir e. Another major funding incr ease of $798,4 00 has been app roved to support the operation of wife abuse shelters in the province.

This represents a 47 percent increase over last year's supp ort for this area. This infusion of new dolla rs will sta bili ze fu nding for existing shelters. A thr ee-tier funding structure has been established to take into account the fu nding requir ements of small, medium and large shel ters. Per di em rates have risen to $45 per indi vidual in shelter , and almost all shelters will receive increased gr ants und er the new struct ure to pay for such non-resi dential services as couns elling.

The latter. is in recog nition of the fact th at women need suppor t and help, even though th ey may not seek shelter care. The province's thr ee women's resou rce centres will also receive additional funding, and a fourth resource centre will now be suppor ted . Plu ri-elles Inco rpora ted will receive $111, 200 to offer cou nselling and program su pport tha t is targeted to the French-spe aking commun ity. This is another recommendation of the Women's Initia tive, which our Government is suppor ting this year.

Over and abo ve our spending Estimates for the Family Disp ute Services, we have set aside an additiona l $200,000 for a mass media campaign, the focus of which will be, and I quote, "Abus e is a crime." The ob jective of this campaign is to heig hten Manitobans' awareness of the criminalit y of dom estic violenc e and encou rage those in need of assistance to seek appr opria te help. No w turning our att ention to our you ngest cli ents and our gr eatest hope for the future, I wou ld lik e to outline my department's fiscal plans for child day care.

Our total bu dge t for day care this year will be jus t over $41.8 million. This represents an incr ease of $5. 7 million over last year, app roxi mately 16 percent. Over $3 million of the incr ease will be used to provide a 4. 7 percent general fee increase for exist ing day care services and to pay for any day care expansions or additions th at were beg un la st year. In addition, about $2.4 million has been ded ica ted to new init ia tiv es. All of the new ini tia ti ves we have ide ntified for day care stem from recommendations of the Manitoba Child Care Task Force Report, which I released last May.

Tha t report contained 204 recom mendations for impr ovement of Ma nitoba's child day care system. Over 80 of these recommendations are now being add ressed, some with exis ting resou rces and others thr ough new expansions and enhancements which our Gov ernment is making to child day care services this year.

In order to provide balanc ed su pport across the day care system, fundin g incr eases have been made to a number of key areas, including: the creat ion of 345 new spa ces in family day care homes and non-pr ofit day care centres; incr eased star t-up gr ants for family day care homes; star t-up gr ants for workpla ce child care centres; incr eased per diems averag ing 60 cents per child; incr eases to sal ary enhancement gr ants for trained workers in Go ver nment-fu nded centres, in itiation of a sala ry enhancement gr ant for qual ified workers in other non-pr ofit centres; elimina tion of the 25 percent ceiling on the number of sp aces eligibl e for subsid ies in child day care home and pr ivate day care ho mes; doubling of the gr ant to the Family Day Care Assoc iation to suppor t asse ssment of worker qual ifi cat ions; addition of two resou rce co-o rdina tors to the depar tment's chi ld day care staff to encourage gr owt h in the day care communit y, and offer tra ining and suppor t to exis ting day cares; and expansion of the com petency-based assessment system tha t all ows child care workers to have their skills assessed through on-the-job evalua tion.

In addition, I would like to note that this summer I appoi nted a new Child Care Advisor y Committee to provide me with ongoing advice on day care polic y and emerging issues in the day care commun ity. These ini tia tiv es represent our Go vernment's ini tial step in a 4091

Monday, January 8, 1990 multi- year strategy to expand Man itoba's child care system, and make it more flexi ble and responsive to the needs of fa mili es in the 1990 's. Recently a wor king gr oup on day care has been struc k to add ress the di ffi cult task of achievi ng fair and bala nced Go vernment sup port for futur e needs across the day care system . The day care asso ciations in our provinc e have been invited to partici pate in this gr ou p. I belie ve, by add ressing future gr owth and sup port of day care in partnersh ip with the com munit y, we will ach ieve our goals for day care in Manitoba.

The Income Secu rit y Division of my department adminis ters the province's major income mai ntenance initia tive, the Social Allo wance Program , provi ding pro vincial cost-s haring to municip al assistance systems and opera tes inc ome suppl ement programs to assist famili es raising childr en and Manitobans aged 55 and over who have limi ted financial resou rces. The div ision also works to prom ote the economic independence of social assistance reci pients by developing connections with emplo yment and tra ining programs and other supp ort services.

Agai n, I would note tha t under our reo rganiza tion this di vision has been combined with the adminis tra tion and management functions of the department in the new In come Securit y and Management Services Divis ion. The two areas will be tr eated separately tor the purpo ses of this review, so I will refer to Income Security as a separ ate di vision in my remarks. We have bud geted over $252 milli on tor Income Security this year, an increase of nearly $20 mill ion over 19 88-89 in income maint enance for Manitobans in need of financial assistance.

During the past fiscal year, the Income Secu rit y Division provided social allo wance benefits to a monthly average of about 24,000 cases, repres enting appro xima tely 45,000 ind ividual Manitobans, primarily di sabled persons, single parents and their childr en. In addition, my department cost-sh ared muni cipal assis tance to a monthl y average of almost 10 ,000 cases involving app roxi mately 16 ,000 ind ividuals in need. Janu ary 1, 1989, basic social allo wance benefits were increased by 3.9 percent. This past Janu ary 1 the se benefits have incr eased by a further 4.9 percent.

Both of these incr eases are in keeping with the rise of the overall consumer pr ice inde x during the respective pr evi ous years. Effe ctive Janua ry 1, 19 89, Social Allo wances Program regu lations were amended to enable childr en and famil ies receiving assistance who at tended school fu ll time to retain earn ings from emplo yment without affect ing their family's monthly benefits.

This measure is intended to provide the se childr en with extra income for their perso nal needs and fur ther educa tion, and to encou rage them to develop the emplo yment habits and sk ills th ey will need to build futur e economic inde pendence. This past year, the Man itoba Government cont racted for an exte rnal audit of the Social Allo wances Program to ensure tha t it was being del ivered appropria tely.

I am pl eased to report tha t the consultants found staff to be dil igently applyi ng the establ ished pr oced u res and reg ula tions of the program. * (1 450) The final report of the Women's Ini tia tiv e Consu lting Comm ittee rel eased this pa st March contained a number of recommendations related to the provi sion of social assistance.

In respons e to a reco mmendation put forward by the Women's Initia tiv e and also by the external audit review, the Go vernment is pr oceed ing with arrangements for legal aid to help sole-sup port parents rec eiving provi ncial allo wances to secure mai nten ance ord ers from their spous es. Regular maintenance su ppor t can be a critic al factor in enabling th ese ind ividuals to make a successfu l transition from welfare to emp loyment. Moreov er, I belie ve it is im portant in principle tha t fathers contri bu te to the sup por t of their childr en.

The Women's Ini tia ti ve Repor t also requested that the provi nce immedia tely undertake to ensure that all single -parent famil ies, the majority of which are female led , have access up on appl ica tion for social assistance to the provi ncial system. Our Gov ernment ag reed that this was a prior ity with a result tha t the legislation requir ed to extend pro vincial benefits to th ese famili es was passed by this House in la te December.

My department has begun im plementing this new poli cy, which will remove the requir ement tha t single parents be separated or deserted for mor e than 90 days before qual ifyi ng for pro vincial soc ial allo wance benefits. Under the former polic y, single parents who were not eligible for provincial benefits had to apply to their lo cal municipality for assistance. The new pol icy provides a more stre amli ned app roach tor the se famil ies, elimi nating the need to trans fer them from one program to another after their fi rst 90 da ys of separa tion.

An additional $2 million has been provided to the Department of Fam ily Services to impl ement this change dur ing this fiscal year. An estima ted 1,000 famil ies are expected to enroll for social allo wance benefits under the new pr ovis ion, and additional resou rces have been put in pla ce by my department to provide the requir ed services.

On the br oader aspects of social assistance in Man itoba, I would li ke to reaffirm tha t our Government is commit ted to a more equitable system of assistance in our province, a system tha t provides adequa te levels of assistance for Manitobans in need while encourag ing and su pporting recipients' efforts to become financially self-suf ficient. In keeping with this comm itment, I establ ishe d a consulta tion process with municipalities to consider options for developing uniform rates and ru les go verning muni cipal so cial assistance programs.

Ba sed on advice from the Municip al Advisor y Comm ittee, a social assis tance revie w comm ittee consis ting of representativ es from all major muni cipal organi zations, and the provincial Go vernment has been meeting for several months and has su bmitted to me their recom mendations some time in December-I do not exactly recal l the date, but it was about the middl e of December th ey presented me with tha t report. Our ob ject is to develop a fair , more consistent appr oach to the pr ovision of social assistance.

I am confident that an effective system can be put in pl ace through co-operativ e pla nning in volvi ng the pr ovi ncial and muni cipal Go vernments. 4092

Monday, January 8, 1990 In the area of income supplement, the 55 Plus Income Suppl ement Program provided quarterly benefits last year to about 26, 000 older Ma nitobans with limi ted incomes. Eligible income levels and maxi mum benefits have been incr eased for 19 89-90 in accordanc e with the cost-of -li ving in creases as measu red by the consumer pric e index. Monthly income supplements provided under the Child Related Income Supp ort Program will assist about 8,900 famil ies this year with the cost of raising their children.

Elig ibl e income levels for this program were incr eased Jul y 1, 1989, to reflect cost-of -living incr eases as measured by the consumer price index. The Youth and Emp loyment Services Division of the Department of Family Services provides the focal point for the provi ncial Go vernment's initia ti ves to impr ove the emplo yment potential of Mani tobans, particularly young people, social assistance recipi ents and immigr ants. Ju st over $21.4 million is bud geted for this division for 19 89-90, an incr ease of about $758 ,000 over last year.

As I noted earlier , this di vision has now been expanded to include responsi bi lit y for day care, and thus has been renamed Day Care, Youth and Emplo yment Supp ort. In the Youth and Reg ional Services Branch of the division, my department op erates a range of program ming to assist st udents and youth with summer emplo yment, work experience and career development.

The se programs, Careerstart , the Student Temporary Emplo yment Program, the Job Opportun ity Service, the Ma nitoba Youth Job Centres and Nor thern Youth Corps, have all been maintained in '89-90 at the le vels of funding equal to the previous year. This su mmer, over 1,500 students and yout hs were pl aced in provi ncial Go vernment positions by the Job Opp ortun ity Service, including 465 in career-related positions created by the STEP program.

Almo st 11,000 young people were pla ced in full-time and part-t ime jobs by the Manitoba Yo uth Job Centr es throughout the pr ovince, and Ca reerstart hel ped over 3, 100 Manitoba employers create new jobs for 4, 600 students and you th. Through the new career cred it component of Careerstart , 80 post-se cond ary students ob tained career-related summer emplo yment for which they received acad emic cred it. The No rthern Youth Corps Program provided gr ants to northern co mmuniti es to create over 500 posit ions emplo ying young people and su pervisors in co mmunity impr ovement project s.

The six Southern Employment Resou rces and five Nor thern Employment Supp ort Services offices assisted in the development, del ivery and admin istra tion of these programs, as well as emplo yment program ming for social assis tance recip ients. They also provide reg ional labour market in formation services for emplo yers, emplo yees and th ose seeking emplo yment. Our Gov ernment belie ves tha t the ultima te go al of most Manitobans receivi ng social assistance is to obtain prod uctive employment and provi de for their own needs.

We pla ce a high prio rity on measures th at help social assistance recipients and other Manitobans who have problems with chronic unemplo yment to ach ieve this goal. My department will maintain funding in '89-90 for the Human Resou rces Oppor tuni ty Program and its associated centres which pro vide couns elling, referral, work experience and job trai ning measures for people exper iencing di ffi culty in obtai ning and ret aining employment.

We will incr ease our funding suppor t this year for programs suppor ted joi ntly by the Go vernments of Canada and Ma ni toba under an agreement on emplo yabil ity enh ancement for social assistance recipients. Last year, the se measures assisted about 1,800 social assistance recipients, single parents, you th, dis abled persons and municipal assistance clients to obtain trai ning and job preparat ion lead ing to long term employment.

This year, my department has commit ted I million to continue and expand one of the se measures, the Gateway Prog ram, which our Go vernment introd uced as a pilo t initia tiv e a year ago last fall. This program offers a 30-week com bina tion of in-school trai ning and on-the- job work experience for social assistance recipients in Wi nnip eg, Brandon and The Pas.

This par ticular measure under the federa l-provincial agreement is developed and funded solely by the pr ovi nce, so in keeping with the in tent of equa l partner ship in the agre ement, the federal Go vernment ha s committed an equal amount to additional progra mming of its own to help social assistance recipients in Manitoba. Manitoba has a well-establis hed and effective array of init iativ es designed to carry out this pro vince's suppor t for the su ccessfu l sett lement of immigr ants and refug ees arriving in Manitoba from other nations.

In 19 89-90, Estima tes of the Depart ment of Family Services reflect our Go vernment's doubling of the bud gets of two of the se ini tia tiv es this year . The Recog nition Program pr ovides wage assistance to busine sses tha t create new permanent positions of a pr ofessional or techn ical natur e for landed immigr ants or rec ently natural ized Canad ians wh ose forei gn creden tials or work experience are not formally recog nized in Ma nitoba.

Fu nding for recog nition this year has been incr eased by $150 ,000 to $300,000, enabling the program to assist the establishment of posit ions for about 35 newcomers who have brought profess ional or technical skills to our pro vinc e and who are seeking Canadian work experience in their areas of expertise. The Newco mer Servic es Su ppor t Program provides special pr oject funding and consu lt ative supp ort to commun ity organ iza tions involved with orienta tion and sett lement efforts.

The program 's budget has been doubl ed to $50,000 for '89-90, and the maxi mum level of su ppor t for any one pr oject has been raised from $5,0 00 to $7,5 00.00. Our Gov ernment recog nizes the im portance of sett lement services suppor t in enabling newcomers to li ve, work and thri ve in Manitoba. This fu nding incr ease will impr ove and expand exis ting services. In the Adminis tration and Fin ance appropria tion, it contai ns a number of central services avai lable to supp or t the programs and activities deliv ered by the depar tment.

I would like to note in speak ing to this area th at when our Go vernment's responsi bil ity for 4093

Monday, January 8, 1990 so cial services were cons olida ted in the new Department of Famil y Services, a strong Ad ministrat ion and Finance function was recog nized as being essential to our goal of strengt hening the depar tment's abili ty to manage this wide range of services. *

(1500) To define an effective organ iza tional structure for th ese central services, a review commit tee of senior Government managers from our department, the Civil Service Commission, the Depart ment of Fin ance, Treasury Board and the Provincial Auditor's offic e was struck la st June. The resu lts of this comm itte e's unde rtak ing are evident in the management services area of the rest ructu red Depart ment of Family Servi ces annou nced in October .

The new adminis trativ e structu re cons ists of four central supp ort branches: pr ogram budg eting and repor ting, financial and adminis tr ativ e services, hu man resource services and informa tion syst ems. In addition, a new departmen t-wi de internal audit function is now in pla ce, and a new agency relations bur eau intended to stren gthen the management and financial accou ntabil ity of external agencies prov iding services on behalf of the Go vernment is being establ ished .

We belie ve this organ iza tional model will enable Family Services to establish a strong new comptroller ship function in the department, which will serve to impr ove internal management and strengthen acco untabil ity . The strength of this function will be the key to the depart ment's achie vement of its goals in prov iding services to Mani tobans. The 1989 bud get Estima te for this area is about $6.3 million, appr oxi mately the same level of funding app roved for th ese services in 19 88-89.

This appropriation also inclu des the Min ister's and Deput y Min isters' of fices, the Com munic ations and th e Research and Planning Branches, Vital Statistics office, Residential Care Licensing and the bud get for the Social Servi ces Advi sory Commit tee, an ind ependent ap peal body . Reducing administrative costs and the reby increasing spending for services to peo ple has always been an obje ctive of this Go vernment. It has been the ratio nale beh ind this year's rest ruc turing of Go ver nment departments.

With amalgama tion of responsi bili ties in the new Department of Family Services as part of this restruc turing we have been able to achie ve imp roved administrative efficienc y in the delivery of our programs and our services. In closing th ese intr oduc tory remarks, let me empha siz e that my depar tment's prop osed expenditu res for '89-90 speak to the needs of Mani toba families and ind ividuals in their quest to lead secure, prod uct ive and fulf illing li ves in our society . This is a bud get package weigh ted toward service and prog ram deliv ery.

We will continue to work towards gr eater adminis trativ e savi ngs so tha t we may make more money available for the di rect service of the people of this provi nce. Thank you. Mr. Chairman: We will now have the custom ary reply from the critic for the Li beral Party, the Member for Ell ice. Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): Thank you, Mr. Chai rperso n. We thank the Min ister for her remarks. We wou ld hope, as is cus tom ary in the spending Est imates, tha t the Opposition Members may have a copy of the speech which the Min ister ha s just del ivered . We wou ld appr ecia te that.

I wish to keep my opening sta tement$ very br ief this afterno on. Our time allo cation for the di scussion of the Famil y Services spending Estima tes is limi ted , and it will become crucial tha t the questions we ask are very clear, tha t the y are well pla ced and the answers from the Min ister will also clar ify as much as pos sible. I took the oppor tuni ty of reread ing the 1988-89 di scus sions of the depar tment's spending Est imates.

It was qui te interesting from th ose di scussions tha t ther e were a number of reviews which were under way in the depar tment, and we hope we will have the opportun ity to di scuss the results of some of th ose reviews as we go through the spendin g Estima tes in the next few days.

As the Cham ber is aware, my Party and myself have made it very well known tha t we have continu ed to have considerable concerns about the management of the department, the then Commun ity Servic es and now with the new department name, the Department of Famil y Ser vices, and we ha ve had concerns and co ntinue to have concerns about the abili ty of the Min ister to mana ge this very complex, di verse portf olio.

In the beginning months of this Go ver nment's manda te, we did see what appeared to be a confrontat ional style and a cl osed com munic ation style that appeared to be somewhat overwhelming, shall I say, or we were very concerned abo ut a new Minis ter and a new Gov ernment decid ing to del iver such a confronta tional style in their manda te. We saw a confrontation with the foster parents, with the Child and Family Servic es agencies and with the child care commun ity .

We had hoped that developing style of management would be quickly th warted and th at the Min ister wou ld cert ainly very qu ickly learn that openness, establishing a trust with commun ity gr oups and agencies, provi ding feedback, work ing with the staff of the department, as oppo sed to wo rking ag ains t them, tha t in fact th ose would be the only effective ways to beg in leading a department. Wha t we saw over the months, Mr. Chai rperso n, is tha t we moved into further confrontation styles with the child care commun ities.

We saw unpr ecedented rallies at the Leg isla tur e where thousands of parents, childr en, sup por ters of child care workers and boards of dir ectors sat and spoke on the steps of the Leg isla tur e about their concern over this Go vernment's abil ity to manage the child care por tfolio within the department. We saw parents of the mentally handicapp ed hold press co nferences, hold rall ies ag ain on the steps of the Leg isla tur e to express their gr eat concern and to plead with the Minis ter of Family Servic es (Mr s. Oleso

n) for some assistance in regard to day prog rams and residential services for mentally hand icapped . Then we saw a Premier and a Min ister who attempted to blame civil servants for decisions tha t were wi thin 4094

Monday, January 8, 1990 the purview of the Min ister herself. Decisions were made to cut back on funds to employment preparation centres and to sheltered workshops, forci ng cl ients out of wo rk. No one seemed to have taken responsi bili ty for such a decisi on. Yet the blame was pla ced on the shoulders of the civil servants. We saw as well, Mr . Chairper son, a Premier (Mr. Filmon) who spoke out and talked about the importance of a partnersh ip with the Civil Service, while his Min ister of Fam ily Services (Mrs.

Oleson) was allowing wholesale staff changes and att empting to get rid of indi viduals in senior management posit ions. Wha t we have seen over the past year, since the last Estima tes process, is conti nual concerns about the management of the depart ment, concerns about the Min ister's abil ity. As we spend time over the next number of days on th ese particular spe nding Estima tes wi thin the newly amalgamated depa rt ment, we cert ainly will be looking very cl osely for any redeeming factors tha t would give us some hope tha t this department is embarking on a path toward stab ilit y.

We will look for any hope tha t perhaps a renewed sense of faith can be establis hed with the many com muni ty groups and organiza tions whose lif eline is tied to the Department of Family Services. As dis cussions in this comm ittee emerge over the next number of days, we will want answers from the Minis ter which reflect a thorough kno wledge of her dep ar tment, a gr asp on the is sues wi thin the depar tment, and answers which will provide some in sight into the dir ect ion tha t the department is going.

Th ose are their goals and their ob jectives, which we certai nly sa w were la ck ing in the last spend ing Estima tes. We will also be looking for a management plan of act ion over the next year for this particular depa rt ment. With th ose few remarks, Mr. Chai rpers on, I look very forward to the next few days and having an opportunity to di scuss in full the spending Esti mates of this particular depart ment. Mr. Chairman: With the open ing com ments from the Critic of the New Democra tic Party, the Member for St. Johns. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (S t. Johns): Thank you , Mr. Chair person.

I wi ll endeavou r to keep my opening remarks very short. I do not promis e to be as brie f as the Member for Ell ice (Ms . Gr ay), but then I can gu arantee Members tha t I will not be as long as the Min ister of Fam ily Servic es (Mr s. Oleson). I did appr ecia te her lengthy sta tement and the informa tion tha t was provided to us and look forward to receivi ng a copy of her text as soon as pos sible. *

(1510) I wou ld like to in my open ing remarks rais e a few ge neral concerns and pol icy areas tha t we will be pursuing in gr eater detail throughout the Estima tes of the Department of Family Services. Let me begin my remarks by referencing the fi rst point th at was made by the Min ister herself. That was the fact th at she is in charge of in a sense a new depar tment, the Depart ment of Famil y Services, which after restru ctu ring was formed in, I belie ve, April of last year.

Cert ainly we applaud any attempts by the Go vernment of the Day to recog nize the needs and concerns of famil ies, the changing reality of the family in our soci ety. We are very concerned about the meat behind this annou ncement and the su bstance behind this act ual structural change, which of cou rse is costly on its own merits, in its own way, costly in terms of rest ruc turing an entire department, costly in terms of changing letterhead , costly in terms of commun ica ting this to the pu blic.

I am afraid what we have seen so far amounts to a change tha t is no more than a change in letterhead and a change of name on the Min ister's door. Everything sinc e the Departments of Communi ty Services and Emplo yment Services and Economic Security were revamped and the result was the Depart ment of Family Servic es has been very little when it comes to famil ies, in fact nothing in terms of deal ing with the crisis facing famil ies. The way I would like to approach tha t broad topic is from several points of view.

One is the message tha t the Gov ernment leaves the publi c when it comes to its app roach to the famil y and its respons iveness to family needs and concerns. The next is with respect to current poli cies and pr act ices in responding to issues and provi ding programs. Final ly, I think one has to assess a department,

part icula rly a new depar tment, the particular one tha t is dealing with family issues when it comes to new poli cies tha t respond to cha nges in our society and new di rect ions. In all fronts, I belie ve that this Gov ernment has failed . This Min ister has not follo wed up a change in department with meaningful, subs tantive, helpful messages, pol icies and future dir ections.

When it comes to the message tha t is left behind to the publi c, I think one only has to look at the numbers of cont rovers ial issues tha t this Min ister and this Gov ernment have fou nd th emselves embroiled in over the last year or two to realize the kind of negative message th at has been left with famil ies and with co mmunities and with non-profit volunt eer organiza tions involving in this fi eld.

The hur tfu l, painful battles that ha ve occurred between this Min ister and her department and organ izat ions like the Manitoba Child Care Assoc ia tion have left a very harmful message to familie s in our soci ety about the jus tific ation and the rightful request tha t the y put before the Go vernment when it comes to requesting qual ity child care of the Government of the Day, when it comes to ge tting an underst anding from the Go vernment of the Day of the help tha t is requir ed to ju ggle work and fam ily responsi bil ities and to meet the many pressures of the day.

We have also when it comes to messages and nega tiv e messages left by this Min ister and this Gov ernment only to look as far as the series of articles th at was run by the Free Press on food banks and poverty in this province and particu larly the Cit y of Win nip eg . It does not send a positive message to fa mil ies and commun ities and ind ividuals in this 4095

Monday, January 8, 1990 provinc e when the y are told by the Min ister in charge th at if there was increased money going their way, if social assistance rates were increased, it would not necessarily result in a reduction in use of food banks because th ose ind ividua ls would more than li kely spend it on other things, presu mabl y frivolous thi ngs, rather than on food and would st ill use the food banks. I wou ld ask the Minis ter when sending th at kind of message to fi rst ch eck the fact s, check the research and check the reality of the situa tion.

I refer her specifically to the good research and wor k done by the Social Planning Council of Wi nnipeg who clearly documented very recently , this past spring in fact , tha t as incomes incr ease there is less reli ance on food banks. It poi nts out clearly , and I quo te from a Free Press

article on April 26, 19 89, "The im portant conclusion of the su rvey findings was tha t it's prima rily a problem of ina dequa te incomes, it's not a problem of li festy le," Mr. Stevens from the Social Pla nning Council said. Further , "He rejected su gge st ions th at some low -income earners turn to food banks after squandering money on other things, pointing to the repor t's findings tha t the rate of food bank use drops as hous ehold incomes margina lly increase. " Mr.

Chai rperso n, the message is a very im portant part of Gov ernment, and I would hope th at in the cou rse of th ese Estima tes we will get a clarif ication from the Min ister and the Go vernment of the Day about their appr oach to social assistance to deal ing with a gr owi ng crisis in our familie s in our socie ty toda y and dea ling with increasing poverty among childr en and among famil ies everywher e.

I would hope tha t we will loo k seriously at some of the more recent sta tis tic s sho wi ng the incr edible high level of poverty in this province, the inc rea sing dis parit ies in our socie ty sinc e this Go vernment took office and si nce the Prog ressive Conservative Gov ernment in Ottawa has been in power, and lo ok at some sta tis tics lik e th ose produced by Statistics Canada showing Manitoba with one of the hig hest rates of child poverty in this countr y with a number as high as 58,6 00 childr en li ving in poverty or a rate of 24.3 percent.

Those kinds of stat istics must be add ressed and pol icies must be im plemented in response to tha t kind of economic di sparity in this province if we are to believe tha t this Go vernment is serious about famil ies and about a Family Services Depart ment. Everything we have seen to date from this department has not at all been to addr ess the crisis in our family toda y in Manitoba and the gr owi ng eco nomic concerns faci ng all members of our soci ety.

It is also im portant when dealing with a depart ment tha t we have tod ay, the Depart ment of Family Services, which has been revamped to apparently deal with the need to respond to famil ies' concerns and to keep, as the Min is ter herself said tod ay, family li fe stron g, to loo k at some of the cu rrent pr act ic es and polic ies of this Go vernment. Regrettab ly, since the time tha t this new department was formed back last spring in '89, there has been nothing but a reg ressive move in terms of pract ic es and pol icies pertai ning to famil ies in this province.

One again has only to lo ok as far as the crisis in our child care system and the response by this Government 4096 to appr ecia te ju st ho w regressive this province is becoming when deal ing with famil ies.

The fact that at a time when ther e is a gr owi ng demand on the part of famil ies everywhere for quality, accessible, afford able child care, this Gov ernment has chosen to move in the op posite dir ect ion by refusing to address the concerns of child care pro fessionals in this province deal ing with their very serious concerns about salaries and abo ut recog nition for the work they perform in our soci ety, and as we ll a Gov ernment tha t is not prep ared to consider the need to provide as much as possi ble a universally accessible, affordable system.

Instead it has left clear signals and messages tha t it is intent on dismantling th at system of affo rdable, acces sibl e, qual it y child care for every family in our so ci ety reg ardle ss of income, regard less of posit ion. In that respect , Mr. Chai rperson, let me register a concern tha t I rai sed in the Estima tes previously for this Minis ter.

At that time, I raised a very real concern based on some rumour , ob vio usly now well- founde d, tha t this Gover nment was in tent on merging the Departments of Economic Securit y and Communit y Servic es into one. * (15 20) I raised tha t concern because it clearly signals to me-I thin k all of the evidence is no w pointing in tha t dir ecti on -a n intention on the part of the Go vernment to move away from any notion of social programs tha t need to be in pla ce, th at must be su ppor ted by Gov ernment because all citizens in our provi nce have the right to access social programs like child care, li ke services for battered wo men, like community living arrangements for the di sabled members of our soci ety, like a proper child and famil y services network and so on.

Wha t we have seen clearly from this Gov ernment is a ph ilo soph ical intention and a bent to merge the two concepts out of a fai lur e to recogn ize the impor tance of universal ly accessible social programs for all cit izens of our socie ty regard less of income and reg ardle ss of posi tion, and a view tha t is qui te a separate issue and quite a sepa rate pol icy from economic security and income supple ment and social assistance, which is seen as a necessary suppor t system for tho se who must depend on the Go vernment of the Day for tha t floor , tha t safety net.

Instead we have a Gov ernment toda y tha t has merged the concepts and has sent us on a very dangerous cou rse, a very dangerous course of act ion and a very regress ive appr oach in this province. Mr.

Chairpers on, there are a gr eat number of issues one could point to to gi ve evidence of the fact tha t this Go vernment and this department and this Min is ter have not put their money where their mouths are, their resou rces and their suppor ts beh ind rest ruc turing of a department such as the Child and Famil y Servi ces crisis, the refusal by this Gov ernment to get involv ed in parent-ch ild centres, the lack of pol icy dir ect ion when it comes to the di sabled , the fact tha t all stat is tics point to a commit ment on the part of this Go vernment to in fact ins titutiona lize rather than lo ok at com muni ty living options, the fai lur e of this Go vernment to put in pla ce the necessary supp orts and couns elling resou rces for

Monday, January 8, 1990 tho se who are either vic tims of viol ence or who are the abusers thems elves, the fai lure of this Gov ernment to add ress seriously the question of social assistance levels and the gr ow ing presence of food banks in our society, the fact tha t it has been able to ig nore increasing research and evidence of a breakdown in our family and our com munity such as the most recent Social Planning Council Report on Runaways sho wi ng the hig hest level of runaways anywhere in this count ry, the fai lure of this Go vernment to deal with su ppor ts for vict ims of plant clos ures, to deal with the incred ib ly destr uctive impa ct on famil ies and commun ities when single -resource towns come to an end and turn into gho st town s, the fai lure of this Go vernment to serio usly address federal issues tha t are destr uct ive on familie s such as the Family Allo wance cla wba ck, the goods and services tax, and the lis t goes on and on.

I think what we need to see in this set of Estima tes and in the deba te tha t will fo llo w over the next few days is a clear sense from this Go vernment abo ut exactly how it intends to turn this new department into a useful, su ppor tiv e resource network for the famil y in our soci ety, to ind icate to this House how it intends to turn aro und a sit uat ion where its pol icies and its practices and its messages have been very destru ctive for the family and for communities in Manitoba.

I thin k what we also would expect to hear thr oug ho ut the se Estima tes is a clear sense from this Gov ernment about how it will deal with some changing ci rcumstances in our society and new needs tha t are emerging. At the top of that li st of course is the incred ible gr owth in demands facing our Child and Family Services su ppor t system.

We have yet , aft er many, many months and de spite numero us st udies and au di ts and com ments and wor king gr oups and comm ittees, heard from this Gov ernment ho w it intends to deal with the fact th at over the last few years th ere has been more than an 84 percent incr ease in case counts facing Wi nnip eg agencies and tha t the fun ding of the Government has not at all add ressed tha t gr owth in demand and tha t increase in casel oad .

We are wai ting anxio usly, as are all the agencies, a clear indi cation from this Gov ernment ho w it intends to deal with tha t incred ible gr owth in caseloads and how it intends to put the se agencies on a firm financial foot ing rather than sim ply always injecting deficit fu nds or fu nds to deal with deficits and then cal cu lat ing th ose fu nds in terms of the base and never, never dealing with the fact tha t the base is ina dequate and tha t th ere must be an overhaul of fu nding to th ose agencies and a recognition of the changing face of the social and eco nomic fabric in this province. So, Mr.

Chai rpers on, on tha t note we will be anxio us to receive from the Min ister an und ersta nding of the kind of message she and her department and this Government in tend to lea ve with famil ies and comm un ities, ho w she accou nts for some of the cut backs and backsl iding when one looks at cu rrent polici es and pr act ices, and how she will deal with the cu rrent void in terms of new thin king and pol icy id eas and creativ e app roaches to gr owing problems in our soc iety. Thank you, Mr. Chai rperso n. Mr.

Chairman: Prior to proceed ing to item 1 we will have the Minis ter's staff come in and join her at the table. At this time, we will gi ve the Min ister an oppor tu nity to int roduce the staff. Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, before I int roduce the staff who are pr esent, I wo uld li ke to ask your ind ulgence.

Because we are in the Cham ber and the other staff have to spend their time in the gall ery obs ervi ng and lis tening, I would ask your indulgenc e and ask the ind ulg ence of the Mem bers of the Opposition if we could go th rough the Est imates Book, more or less, line by lin e ins tead of bo unci ng all over li ke we did last year. Last year, it was easier when we were in the committee ro om, because the staff were all more or less in the room at the same time, but this would be awkward .

Si nce th ere have been some chan ges and so for th, if we co uld follo w th rough pretty well as pri nted in the Estima tes Book, it would certainly facilit ate the matters considerably and probably faster, so if I co uld just ask th at to be done. *

(1530) Before we start with the li ne-by-line questioning, would like to int roduce my Deputy, Roxy Freed man, who probably many of you kno w; the Associate Deputy, Wins ton Hodgins; Martin Billin koff of Research and Plan ning; and Wes Henderson of Fina ncial Services. Mr. Chairman: Item 1, Admin istra tion and Fina nce: Provide s executive management, pol icy and program dev elopment, financial, pers onnel and other admin istrative and systems support services to di visions with in the department includ ing the Social Services Advis ory Committee which is resp onsible for appeal pro cedures respect ing the appl ica tion and receipt of Provincial and Municipal Assistance Programs. Item 1.(

a) will be deferred until other items have been passed . Item 1.(

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries $437,000- the Mem ber for Elli ce. Ms. Gray: Mr. Chairman, just to begin wi th, I would ask the Min ister -s he spo ke of some changes in the organ iza tion. Could I ask, when we were handed out the se Est imates, why we were not gi ven a more recent organ iza tional ch art and if we co uld have tha t toda y? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, we have copies of the most recent organ izat ional chart which we co uld pass out. I might add, Mr. Chairman, the Opposi tion had asked for copies of my spe ech as well, and I want copies of that to go to at least the Opposition Criti cs.

Oth ers in the Chamber may have them as well, of course, if th ey are interested . Ms. Gray: In regard to the organ iza tional ch art and the amalgamation of the depart ment, the interim one is ind icated in the su pp lementary Estima tes and the recent one from October , which I did obtain a copy from an ou tside agency, in itially ther e seemed to be Assistant Deputy Min is ters wi thin Income Securit y and Management Services, and then tha t position changed to an Associate Deputy Min ister in October .

Can the Minis ter tell the House what the dif ference is between an Assistant Deputy Min ister and an Assoc iate? Why was tha t change made? 4097

Monday, January 8, 1990 Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, before the reorganiza tion, the Ass istant Deputy had the social assistanc e part of the Department of Emplo yment Services and Economic Secu rity former ly, and tha t was his responsi bil ity . He also now has the responsi bil ity for administra tion of the entir e department. So th ere is added responsibil ities in with tha t It is not jus t Assistant Deputy of the Income Secu rity Branch. Ms. Gray: The Minis ter has indic ated that the Associate Deputy Min ister has adminis tr ativ e respons ibili ty for the entire department.

Is she then sayi ng tha t the other Ass istant Deputy Min isters report di rect ly to the Associate Deputy Min ister and not to the Deputy Min ister? Mrs. Oleson: I probably said tha t wrong. He has the financial management of the entir e department not the management of each section, but he has the overall financial management of the entir e department. You will notice, if you have had an oppor tun ity to look at the chart, it said Ma nagement Servi ces and tha t means Management Services throughout. Ms.

Gray: Can the Min ister tell us, is tha t customar y that where in a department the financial services are under one particular di vision in fact tha t senior position is an Associate Deputy Minis ter as oppo sed to an Ass istant Deput y Min ister? Mrs. Oleson: We worked with the Provi ncial Aud itor . We wanted a dif ferent and better, I gue ss you could say, appr oach to the management of the department. If the Member has read previous Auditor's Reports there were remarks in them usually about the overall management of the Department of Community Services.

We felt tha t we could str engthen the management by using this system. This is not an app roach tha t is used in all departments, and th ere is nothing carved in stone of how the departments will be managed .

I mentioned in my open ing remarks about the committee tha t worked on the management structur e for this department, and that was the feeling of tha t comm ittee tha t this wou ld answer the par ticular problems of a large -I am sure the Member appr eciates the si ze and the div ersity of the department and the many, many agencies that we deal wi th, outside agencies, as well as dir ect service gi ven by the depart ment. Ms. Gray: Mr. Chai rpers on, the Minis ter then is saying that an Associate Deput y Min is ter can be held more accountable than an Assistant Deputy Min ister? Is tha t what she is sayi ng? Mrs.

Oleson: They are all held accountable, but he has more dut ies and more responsi bil it ies than perhaps many Assistant Deputy Minis ters. Ms. Gray: Going back to the amalgamation of the department, perhaps the Min ister co uld beg in by tel ling us, what was the rationale for deciding to combine the Depart ment of Economic Security with the Depar tment of Commun ity Services? Once she has gi ven us tha t rationale, perhaps she could ind icate who made th at decision for the amalgamation. Mrs.

Oleson: Deci sions to do with the formation of departments, amalgama tion of departments and appointments of deput ies are done by the Premier's Office, the Member may know, and tha t was how tha t came about. The rationale behind tha t is to better mana ge some comple x programs within the Gov ernment. Ther e are many pr ograms in the Emplo yment Servic es and Ec onomic Secu rity Department tha t impa cted on the Commun ity Servic es Department and vic e versa. There are some things tha t wou ld be better deliv ered.

For instance, jus t as an example, in the Family Dispute section, the Economic Security was in charge of the per di ems, but the Commun ity Services Depart ment, the Family Dispute section, was in charge of the shelters, so it made it rather comp lex. T hose sorts of things can more easi ly be managed by having them all under one roof, shall we say. Obviou sly, th ey are not all under one roof physically but all under one management team.

That is the appr oach th at I am taking with this department, tha t we have a management team who are put in pla ce to better manage our resou rces so we can pr ovi de services to famil ies of Manitoba who need our help. My feeling is, and the feeling of the Premier and my Cabi net colle agues, tha t if you manage you r resou rces better you provide better service, in the long run more service to people who need it. Ms. Gray: The Min ister has ind icated tha t it was the Premier's Office who made the decision to amalg amate the department.

Could she tell me what expertise the y have tha t her department do es not have to make tha t deci sion? Mrs. Oleson: I am sor ry, Mr. Chairman, I did not hear the fi rst part of the question. Ms. Gray: The Min is ter had ind icated tha t it was the Premier's Office tha t made the decision to amalgama te tho se two departmen ts. I was wondering if the Min ister cou ld tell us wha t expertis e the Premier's Office staff have to make tha t decision versus people within her own department? Mrs. Oleson: I am told that it is always the prerogativ e of the Premier's Office to make tha t choice.

The Premi er, you must recall too, is the chairman of the Treasury Board . He do es know a li ttle bit about what goes on. Ms. Gr ay: Did the Min ister herself ha ve any participation in the decision making or any recommendations about the potential amalgama tion of the se two departments? Mrs. Oleson: It is ultima tely, and has been hi storically , a decision of the Premier's Office as to wha t dep artments are formed . Of course, di scussion takes pl ace but it is the Premier's prerogative. Ms. Gray: Did the Min ister suppor t tha t decisi on of the Premier's Office to amalgama te the departments? 4098

Monday, January 8, 1990 Mrs. Oleson: Yes. Ms. Gray: The Min ister had ind icated tha t one reason to amalgama te the two departments was tha t some services in eco nomi c securi ty im pact on services in com munity services. Was tha t the only ra tionale tha t was used to amalgama te the departments, or were ther e other reasons or factors taken into conside ration? Mrs. Oleson: Ther e were a lot of thi ngs taken into considera tion. Amalgama ting into one depart ment and callin g it Family Services puts the focus on the service tha t we provi de to Manitoba famil ies.

Ma nitoba is not the only province tha t has their services organ ized in this way. I think many pro vinces com bine their so cial services into a department such as this, not all exact ly the same of course. It puts a fo cus on del ivery of service to famil ies. That is wha t this department is all about, no matter what name you call it. We deal prima rily with help for dis advantaged people through social assistance.

We deal with help for people who have various needs and are members of fam ilies, in doing so hopef ull y strengt hening the family unit, which is of cou rse our goal not only in this depar tment but in Gov ernment. I thin k everyo ne wo uld agree the famil y uni t is the most im portant thing in our soci ety. The more we can do to help people to function as a fami ly, should the y want to conti nue to do so, is some thing we ar e very commit ted to.

We deal with ind ividuals in various aspects of the fami ly, not all together as a family unit, but by bringing the department all together it makes it more of a focused approa ch. * ( 1540) Ms. Gray: I can think of at least one other department where th ere wou ld be services pr ovided to famil ies tha t wo uld have a cl ose correl at ion or tha t wou ld im pact on the Department of Com muni ty Services. One example would be the Depart ment of Health. Was there any thought at all gi ven to com bining at least a por tion of the Depar tment of Health with Com munity Services as oppo sed to Economi c Security? Mrs.

Oleson: There are end less possi bili ties, Mr . Chairman, of ho w you cou ld organ ize Gov ernment depa rtments. At one time, the Mem ber wi ll recall, I thin k it was called Health and Welfare tha t was - An Honour able Memb er: Health and Social Development. Mrs. Oleson: -or various names it was over the years, and th ese programs all came under the pur view of the Health Depart ment as such . I think the Member will agree with me that to, for instance, take this department and amalg amate it with the Department of Health wou ld be cum bersome, will we put it pol itely? It wo uld be very awkward .

Ma ny of the thin gs th at this department deals with are not dir ect ly related to Health. Mind you , there are. some things tha t are so, no matter where you dra w the line and place something, you probably could place it somewhere else with equal resu lts, but this was the decision to make to structu re th e department in this way. I am loo king forward and thinking tha t it is an excellent way of providing the services tha t we pr ovi de. Ms. Gray: Mr. Chai rpers on, under the organ iza tional cha rt for October of '89 , the Agency Relations Bu reau has again been separated out.

It is under a dif ferent di vision than wha t is now called Rehabil ita tion and Co mmunity Liv ing. Can the Min ister ind icate to us what mechanisms have been put in place to ensure tha t the work being done by agency relations is very clo sely tied to the work th at wou ld be done in wha t I used to refer to as Programs Branc h, gi ven tha t both of th ose par ticular branches wou ld work with the very same agencies on very simi lar issues? Mrs. Oleson: The Agency Relations Bu reau tha t we are sett ing up would work with each indi vidual sect ion.

So if we put it for ins tance in Com muni ty Liv ing, then tha t would gi ve the reference tha t it was onl y wor kin g th ere. It is not. They will work with all agencies th at are connected with this department, of which ther e are many.

The problems tha t are experienced by many of the agencies with relation to their budg et, with relation to many of their opera tions, it became very clear to me tha t we needed, and various agencies tha t I met with asked tha t this be reins tated , not necessarily the way it had been before, but tha t we do have an Agency Relat ions Branch so that the y wou ld have someone to work with some particular person or persons focused toward wor king with agencies, working out their budg et prepara tions and so for th. Agencies asked for this. The external audit we had sugge sted tha t this take pla ce.

I belie ve their words were something to do tha t it should be the same as before. My view is tha t you really can never step backwards in time and have something exactly as it was before and there must have been some reason for not having it if it had been perfect at the time. So we are endeavou ring to fi ll tha t position and have a di rector in ther e and have an Agency Relations Bur eau tha t makes thi ngs easier for both the department and for the external agencies. Ms. Gray: Mr. Chai rperson, cou ld the Minis ter clarify let us take an example of rehabil itation in com munity living.

There were staff who were within th at particular division who wo uld do some work with agencies in the area of external relations and budgets. Can the Min ister indi cate, are tho se staff in tha t particular di vision and other di visions going to then be moved into what will now be called an Agency Relations Bur eau? Mrs. Oleson: No, tha t is not the intention to move tho se people out. The y will st ill be work ing with the programs of tha t parti cular-y ou are referring to the Rehabil ita tion and Co mmuni ty Livi ng.

The staff there who work with ind ividuals and agencies will st ill be doing th at, but they will also have the backing and the help of an Agency Relations Branch when it comes to budgeting and other matt ers of course, no t ju st budge ting. Ms. Gray: Who then do the agencies deal wit h? Do th ey deal with the staff in Rehabilita tion and Co mmunity 4099

Monday, January 8, 1990 Living as the fi rst line of contact in regard to their agency bud gets, or do the y deal with the Agenc y Relations Bur eau? Mrs. Oleson: They will deal as the y are now with their first line of conta ct with the people in the-f or ins tance, in you r reference to Rehabil ita tion and Com munity and Liv ing, th ey would st ill have them as their fi rst line of contact. The Agenc y Relations Bu reau will be developing service cont racts, for ins tance, as an example.

We are in the pr ocess of developing service cont racts for agencies tha t provide service to us which will outl ine what services we expect them to provide for us and what they will be paid in tur n for tha t service. There have been problems in the past as you may be well aware, for ins tance, tha t an agency with every go od intent will set up a program in the middl e of a year and come forward and say why are you not funding this?

Someho w tha t may be ringing a familiar bell, but with a service cont ract to do with the Agenc y Relations Bur eau, we clearly spelled out wha t in this current year � you will be prov iding this. If you want to provi de something else, then you will have to put in a pro posal and funding will be conside red in the future, so tha t we do not have some of the se things happening. There is nothing wrong with the programs th at are developed in many cases, but all of sudden the department is faced with fu nding something tha t they have not budge ted for.

All the se matters should help to control tha t so tha t we know what we are ge tt ing for our dol lars, and they know what dolla rs the y are get ting for the service they are provi ding. Ms. Gray: Can the Minis ter ind icate -and I may have heard her wrong in her opening state ments-she spoke of Reha bil ita tion and Com munity Living as pr ovi ding services to adu lts and childr en. Am I co rrect , or did I hear her wrong? Mrs. Oleson: Primarily to adults. Ms.

Gray: Can the Min is ter ind ic ate to us the rationa le 1 for put ting the Childr en's Special Services under the div ision of Child and Family Servic es as oppo sed to havi ng it in with the Rehabi li tation and Communi ty Liv ing? Mrs. Oleson: It has been in Childr en's Special Services for some time, and tha t is where it was thought to fit best. The Mem ber , ho wever, is stra ying off the Adminis tra tion and Fin ance sect ion of the department. Perhaps her questions would be better asked when Rehab and Commun ity Livi ng staff are here or when Child and Family Servic es staff are here. Ms.

Gray: Can the Min ister perhaps ans wer this question? She alluded to the Agenc y Relations Bur eau as devel oping service cont racts. Can the Min ister ind

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-98a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 98a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
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