Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, MARCH 20, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 16

March 20, 1975 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 508 IB-1 PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COM!"IITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Minister of Health. HON. DR. G. ROWE (MINISTER OF HEALTH): I wish to table, Mr. ~peaker, the regulations under the Mental Health Act. HON. H.R.V. EARLE (MINISTER OF FINANCE): Mr, Speaker, in accordance with

section fifty-one, paragraph three of the Fin&1cial Administration Act, 1973 I detail below the guaranteed loans paid in part or in whole since the last sitting of the House. According to the act the report must be made within fifteen days after the opening of the next ensuing session. There are copies for the Opposition and for members of the press. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Any copies for us? MR. EARLE: Oh, no. You do not need any. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Labrador North. MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy.

In light of the fact that it has been published that a number of local business people from Newfoundland are looking for parcels of land for offshore servicing or development on the Labrador r~ast, I wonder if the minister can tell the House what location they are looking for and if this has been made public in Labrador and if the people of Labrador in the area have been notified so they can get in on the action? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. HON. L. BARRY (MINISTER OF MINES AND ENERGY) : Mr.

Speaker, that question should be more properly directed to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture 1 I would think,in that as far as I know the only action that has taken place - I have only heard this indirectly - is that there has been application for a grant of crown lands. Industrial Development is also involved in this,I understand. I assume that any other resident 1622

March 20, 1975 Tape 508 18- 2 of th:! s Province is entitled in the i.aine manner to make application for a p;rant of crOWll, land and will get the IIB!lle considerat:ion as anybody else would. MR.. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary · question. C<!uld~the min!ster :lliform the House what location the application wiµ1 made for! HON. W. DOODY (MINISTER OF INDUSTRIAL DEVEL<ll"MENT): We bad an application from a group of business people in St.

John's here who have applied for or they have written us and a,sked if we would consider them in terms of having a supply base area in the Cartwright part of the Coast of Labrador. We wrote thl!III back and tol.d them tliat we would certaialy ~ider their applicatioll when the time came for this sort of thing just as we would with any other group of citizens of the Province wh~ would be interested .:lli establishing it. Rut to the best of my knowledge that is th.e only application that has been received 110 far and it is 1623

March 20, 1975. Tape 509 RH - 1 for the Cartwright area, That was your question was it not, not where the area was? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: It was originated by them? MR. DOODY: Oh, it was originated by them. MR. WOODWARD: A further supplementary to the Minister of Industrial Development, Mr. Speaker: Are there any guidelines or rules set out whereby people can make application for land in the development of offshore minerals? MR. DOODY: That is an excellent question, Sir, and the part of the response to this particular group was that we would not recognize them as being the sole applicant.

Pending the approval by govern­ ment of regulations controlling the establishment of supply bases anywhere in the Province of Newfoundland, we would recognize, of course, and look at all applications as they CaJlle in. But, until such time as we have the proper set of frame~ork in which to build such regulations, we prefer to hold it in abeyance and we felt that it is far better that we hold off on this thing until the people on the Coast of Labrador who are most directly affected and then the population of the Province generally will have a chance to examine the whole thing.

We are not going to pass out leases or grants or rights to particular areas or sectors of any part of the Province until such time as the regulations are framed and published and all of the people cf the Province have an opportunity to examine them and participate in any benefits that may be derived. MR. WOODWARD: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Maybe the minister can inform the House what time the regulations will be ready and at what time this government will be ~easing land or property for that type of development? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. HON. L. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, if I could interject here. This is, first of all of course, going to depend upon how quickly the 1624

March 20, 1975. Tape 509 RH - 2 services are needed by the oil industry and also how quickly govern­ ment decides development should take place. This is the key reason why we are in the jursidiction dispute with the Federal Government because we believe that the Provincial Government and not somebody in Ottawa should be deciding how fast developments take place.

Secondly, at the present time, as I understand it, the mechanism is a·1ailable for controlling development through the ordinary crown lands procedure where parties must make application setting out th~ purpose for which they intend to have the land used, if it is in excess of so many acres, and this involves a discretion in government, in the minister responsible for the crolm lands division and with a policy guideline that there shall be no large scale developments take place until government has had an opportunity to consult with the people along the Coast and whatever part of the Province the developments are likely to take place, particularly with respect to the environmental aspects and so on, That we are not really in a position where we cannot do anything now.

What I am saying is that there is a discretion in the minister and before any decision is made with respect to any large scale project, it is my understanding and it is govern­ ment policy> as I set o·ut in the background paper - you might have seen my trip along the Coast of Labrador - that we intend to consult with the people along the Coast with respect to environ­ mental problems and so on.

One question we are going to have to get into,for example, should it happen that there is a commercial discovery confirmed 1 and that is very likely, if a town is necessary in order to service the activity off the Coast, should this be incorporated into an existing community or coIIDllunities or should it be a new town, a separate town. I submit from the little experience I have that the answer may not be the same if the activity is on the 162~

March 20, 1975. Tape 509 RH - 3 South part of the Coast or if on the North part of the Coast. It may be that the people in Nain would just as soon not have an influx of outsiders into their col!l!llunity. They might prefer if activity is taking place along the North Coast, to have activity take place from a new centre as long as, of course, they see certain benefits to their own community, whether it be in the way of revenue or ,Jbatever. I am j us-t throwing this out for the honourable . member' s con.sideration because this is one of the questions th.at I do not feel confident tc answer at this stage.

From the brief experience I have had along the Coast, it is one of the reasons I went up there to put out this sort of idea to get people thinking so that they can tell government just what way they would like to see things developed. I think the most activity now is taking place out of Cartwright . As far as I can determine Cartwright is used to having outside developments with respect to the communications base t11ey have their. Was it an American base up oo the hill? AN HONOURABLE MfilIBER : Inaudible. 162ti

March 20, 1975 Tape No. 510 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: International Telephone I think it is now, is it? Anyhow, what I am saying basically is that a community, all communities are not the same along the Coast of Labrador. There are some with fairly fragile social structures. You have your native communities. You have other col!Dllunities that have had a fair amount of outside activity taking place with respect to the construction of co11D11unication centres and so on.

And the sort of controls that are needed in one part of the coast are not going to be the sort needed in another part and here is where we are going to have to study it very carefully before we make decisions here that are going to affect the lives of the people on the coast. MR . WOODWARD: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker, the mere fact is that the last publication which was a couple of weeks ago identified Labrador Coast as a hot spot and they outlined the number of ships and the drilling and the activity that will be taking place there this year.

In light of this I think a lot of the local businessmen are looking at maybe stepped up activity and wo.uld like to get in on the activity in the exploration stage and I see that this government has made no provisions for it other than the fact that - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. WOODWARD: Maybe one or two people enjoying it. Maybe the minister - MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The honourable Member for Labrador North while he is leading up to his question is taking a considerable length of time in doing so. MR. WOODWARD : Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, Maybe the minister can inform the House)you know,what the local people can take advantage of in the exploration stage? That is the question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Industrial Development. MR. DOODY: Well, Sir, as the Minister of Mines and Energy has indicated, it is not an area that we feel that we should,and I do not 162 '1

March 20, 1975 Tape No. 510 NM - 2 mean a geographic area, I mean an economic and social area that we feel that we can rush into and just grab the ready cash that may be available there. As the honourable Member for Labrador North knows, there is a life style and a tradition and a whole number of things that have to be considered before government makes arbitrary decisions, despite the fact that there may be some businessmen on the coast , some businessmen in that area who want to rush in and take advantage of the quick buck that may be available, and we do not blame them for that, Sir.

That is their objective in life. We feel it is our obligation to move a little bit more cautiously, to look particularly at the interests of the whole area and to make sure that we have adequate regulations and provisions to safeguard the life style, the economy, the social fabric of the area and make sure that we do everything that is necessary for the ultimate benefit of the whole area. And as the regulations are formulated, certainly they will be published and certainly the House of Assembly will be informed.

And maybe the Minister of Mines and Energy would like to add to that• I am sure he will as he has a particular interest in the thing, not only from his departmental point of view but from an affection that he has acquired for that particular area. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: One thing, Mr.

Speaker, that I made clear in my dealings along the coast,and I have since sent out letters and back­ ground information to communities that we did not have an opportunity to visit, so that they will have the same infonr.ation available to them, is that up to now we have had most of the activity concentrating on the South part of the coast, on the Grand Banlcs area, and this is why when the Offshore Petroleum Industrial Advisory Council where we have people from outside government in a position to advise government and also obtain information from government,that there was only one representative on that council from Labrador . 162~

March 20, 1975 Tape No. 510 NM - 3 Now that the activity is moving North I think it is natural to assume that there should be greater representation from Labrador where the activity is taking place. This is the vehicle,1 think,where a lot of this communication can take place, where a lot of the business opportunities can be made available, made known to people along the coast.

I think one thing has got to be made clear, is that to a great extent it has got to be a matter of individual initiative as well and individual enterprise, in that government is not in a position to say, oh 1you know!there is this business here, there is that business there. The businessmen have to go out and find - MR. WOODWARD: You do not have to tell me that. MR. BARRY: Okay. Okay. Well then I am just wondering why you are asking the question, phrasing the question the way you did. MR. WOODWARD: I am asking for clarification because there are a lot of people concerned right now. MR. BARRY: Okay. Okay.

So the honourable member knows then that individual initiative in enterprise is a great part of it. Our department is prepared, and the Department Of Industrial Development I know as well, to make available any information, whether it be contacts with oil companies, whether it be information about what the companies are planning and so on, to any individuals in the Province, in Labrador or on the island who are interested in obtaining business from oil companies.

People should not get the- impression that just because there is going to be oil industry activity in a particular area that all of a sudden it is a bonanza,you know, that the jobs and the business deals and the money is going to be flowing like water. It is 162~

March 20, 1975 Tape no. .'.i"ll Page 1 - mw still going to be a business proposition and individuals have to be able to provide services 1if this is the area they wanted to get involved in. They have to be able to provide the services that the companies require. But I will say that another suggestion that I made during my visit along the Coast of Labrador was that the time now has arrived where it may be that we should have a Labrador or coastal Labrador advisory council, not necessarily dealing only with the industrial aspects but with the social and environmental as well.

This is currently under active consideration by government. We are not sure yet as to what extent the industrial advisory council will be taking over this responsibility or to what extent a new body will be necessary)representative of the coast. But I will say to the honourable member that I have invited people in the communities we visted and through letters, other communit!_es, to let me know, and I will in turn let government know, what their views are as to how they would like to see their input organized. They has got to be some organization.

I think one way of doing it would be to set up an advisory council with representation along the coast of Labrador so that these people can both obtain information from government and make their views known to government. MR. SPEAK.ER: The Hon. Member for Labrador South. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I had intended to ask a question of the Minister of Education. I think he is coming back in. I wonder if the honourable miujster could tell us when his department will take positive steps to get the school children from the elementary school in Forteau back into the classroom after a month long absence? MR.

SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Education. MR. OTTENHEilIBR: Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman probably knows that there was a doctor, one of the Grenfell doctors,I believe,from St. Anthony, a Grenfell doctor in the area on Friday - was it ¥riday? No, a couple of days ago, I do not recall exactly which day - _when 163U

March :20, 1975 Tape no. 511 Page 2 the department was endeavouring to get a report from him, we were not then able to get in touch with him. The superintendent for that area was due in St. John's today and was coming into the department to give us his firsthan4 assessment of the situation. Whether he is in fact in town and whether he may well have spoken with officials of the department up to now, I do not know. I will check during the course of the afternoon.

The problem has been, and as the honourable gentleman knows because he spoke to me in my office about it a few days ago, has been in identifying what the cause of the problem is. That has been the problem,in identifying what the cause is. Various tests made did not indicate fumes from the furnace or from fuel. I have spoken with medical people as well, and unless they have now definitively identified the cause, but to my knowledge and up to the last time that I had spoken with them or with anyone in the department who was in touch with them, they have not identified precisely what the problem is.

As I say there may be additional information because the superintendent for that school board was due in St. John's today, and there may be additional information which I could give you later this afternoon. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Labrador South. MR. MARTIN: On that same line, Mr, Speaker, I wonder if the minister - we agree that the problem is at this point unidentifiable and probably insoluble - are there any plans to get the children into other accommodations so that they can begin attending classes again? 1631

March 20, 1975 Tape 512 (Afternoon) PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Education. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, this was one of the matters we were going to discuss as the possibility of alternate accommodations in, I believe there are a couple of community halls in the area, and the possibility of alternate accommodations there. Now the honourable gentleman said the problem 1unidentified'or 1unidentifiable: Certainly to my knowledge it has not been identified but it would be most strange if it were not identifiable. You know, that obviously is hard to accept.

But, yes, we are looking to the possibilityaf using other areas in the community for the children in the school. MR. MARTIN: I have a question for the, I think, the honourable the Premier since this question concerns or is of concern to a number of different departments. I would not want to address it to one department and get only a partial answer so I will address it to the honourable the Premier. Would the Premier table before the House copies of the log of aircraft chartered from Labrador Airways by the Labrador Services Division last year between the months of June and September inclusive.

The aircrafts in question 1there are two, those bearing the registration numbers CFBTK and CFRJ01 MR. SPEAKER: I think that question could be placed on the Order Paper. HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, may I have the indulgence of the House to ask leave to table all these regulations. MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed that the Hon. Minister of Justice has leave to table those regulations? Agreed. MR. HICKMAN: • • • • I can hardly read them out. The Condominium Regulations. 1632

March 20, 1975 Tape 512 (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: If it is not unanimously agreed then I am afraid the honourable minister does not have - HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: If I behave can I do it? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. HICKMA.~: The Condominium Regulations, The Public Service Pension Regulations, The Security Amendment Regulations, A.~ HON. MEMBER: MR. HI CKMMl : Heavy stuff. Heavy stuff.

The Private Investigators and Security Guards Regulations - more security regulations - more security regulations - The r!echanics Lien Fees and Forms Amendment Regulations 1974, The Condominium Regulations, The Change of Name Regulations. AN HON. r!EMBER: MR. HIKCHAN: AN HON . ME?!BER: MR. HICKMAN: F.aw, haw! Haw, haw! Inaudible. The Provincial Court Regulations, and more of the Private Investigator and Security Regulations, and more still of the same. AN HON. ?!EMBER: Inaudible. ORDERS OF THE DAY On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! 605-03-02 is under consideration. On motion 605-03-02 carried. Shall 605-03-03 carry? MR. M. WOODWARD: Ur. Chairman, the subhead is really transporatation of school children. I would like to ask the minister in this case here, I think, that transportation in the Province does not only apply to bus transportation as the expenditure states here, or is 1633

March 20, 1975 Tape 512 (Afternoon) in the estimates for the sum of $9,300,000. There are locations throughout the Labrador

section where we do not have high schools in most of the communities, and we have dormority living for a large nwnber of students. PK - 3 1634

March 20, 1975 Tape No. 513 NM - 1 MR. WOODWARD: The dormitory living for students is a very expensive one, although the federal government have been very generous in lots of respects to subsidization and towards room and boardthen the parents are no doubt saddled with some great expense as far as transportation is concerned. The students have to come in in the beginning of school in September by aircraft into Goose Bay and then back to their communities for the Christmas and Easter holidays.

While lots of cases that the federal government have been putting the bill through Labrador Services Division but in more cases the students or their parents are obligated to pay the travelling costs. Maybe this only applies to that dormitory or that dormitory living for students along the Labrador Coast which not only involves the northern communities but some of the southern connnunities as well, is involved in here.

So when we think in terms of the large sums of money that we are spending to take a child a distance of over a mile to school on a daily basis and back again, I feel that we should give some consideration to children who have to travel long distances, even if it is only for a period, if they only have to travel two to three times a year. In this respect I have had a lot of parents coming to me and at one time I was in a position to say yes, we will use the government aircraft in some respects to transport the children.

But today it is not as personal as that because of the fact that a number of the people responsible for doing those favours are not around and they are removed from the scene. So, Mr. Chairman, the minister can in his wisdom, when he looks at this type of Budget, study or make a survey of the needs, travelling by aircraft for students who are living in dormitories at Northwest River, students from the coastal community and maybe make 1630

March 20, 1975 Tape No. 513 NM - 2 some provisions out of this vote, this $9,300,000, so that those students can enjoy the benefits of t~ansportation on a provincial level as well as the students who are bussed daily to their schools and taken back again. I would like to hear the minister's views on that. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Chairman, the point made by the honourable gentleman for Labrador North is certainly a very interesting one.

I can say in all honesty that certainly during the two and a half years that I have been Minister of Education we have never had a request to that effect, Certainly I see the point he is making. This vote,he is quite right, is for the bus transportation on a daily basis for pupils living a mile or more throughout the Province, that is obviously Labrador and the Island part. With respect to students in various Labrador cotm11unities who are going to Northwest River and living in dormitories - MR. WOODWARD: Forty or fifty students. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: Between forty and fifty students and on the whole that would be three round trips a year, I would think Christmas, Easter and then the beginning and the end of a school year, on the whole that would be three round trips a year, I truthfully say that we have never had a representation to that effect, apart obviously from the one the honourable gentleman made now, and I am sure he would not expect me to comment in detail on it • .

I will certainly undertake to have it looked into, to speak further with the honourable gentleman who no doubt has a very first hand knowledge of it and to discuss it with the school boards concerned, And certainly I think the only undertaking I could give now would be that I shall certainly have it thoroughly looked into, MR. ROWE: Mr, Chairman, we have seen that the transportation of school children estimates has gone from $8.2 million ·, rounding it off)to $9.3 million this year, representing an increase I believe of about 13,7 per cent. Now, Sir, the only thing that I am concerned about here 163ti

March 20, 1975 Tape No, 513 NM - 3 is th.at over the years there has been a lot of controversy and trouble with respect to school bus transportation of children and a lot of this was attributed to the fact that there was s0111e difficulty in actually getting a formula t)lat would cover all the very deversified parts of the province. It was difficult getting a school bus formula that would work and meet the needs of the different conditions in the different parts of our province and I submit, Sir, that the school bus formula that presently is being used still has that weakness in it) 163 .i

March 20, 1975. Tape 514 PJ! - l that particularly in the Northern regions the formula is such that the school boards simple do not get enough money for the purposes of transporting school children. Now, I do not have the figures in front of me, but I have had conversations with members of various school boards in the Northern regions of the Province and, of course, in my own District of St. Barbe North, and that is one of the great problems facing the school boards today.

Sir, with growing, increasing inflation what is happening is that the increases in the school bus transportation vote is virtually being swallowed up by inflation, the increased costs of gas, the increased costs of oil and the increased labour costs when it comes to maintenance of these school buses. Sir, in this Province today we have many areas, I am afraid, where a lot is left to be desired with respect to the safety of the buses themselves, the mechanical safety of the buses.

We have had a number of instances over the past year of buses going off the road and being involved in accidents that were directly attributable to the mechanical condition of the buses. Sir, particularly in the Northern regions, I am told that many of the buses are completely inadequately heated and are not equipped with something that was brought up-three or four years ago and that is a some sort of telecommunications or some sort of radio communications aboard these buses, simi.lar to probably what you would find in taxi cabs in certain areas of our Province.

But what we have in areas like the Northern Peninsula are great long distances to be covered by the school buses under very severe and hazardous winter conditions and these buses, as well as being mechanically, in some cases, in pretty poor condition, they are inadequately heated and they do not have a radio, a walkie-talkie or what have you in these buses so that they can maintain contact with some central area 1 1638

Narch 20, 1975. Tape 514 RH - 2 such as the highways depot there, in case they get into difficulty with seventy or eighty school children aboard. Sir, I submit that, although there is an increase in this vote, that it is being swallowed up by inflation and the safety factor is something that has to be considered, the condition of the buses. A number of school boards have told me that they have less buses contracted this year than they had in previous years.

I can give an example of the Straits of Bell Isle Integrated School Board, I think had to cut back on one bus and one bus now is out of operation or was out of operation a few weeks ago because of mechanical difficulties and these buses are simply not getting around to pick up the children and they are having to stand up and wait in sub-zero weather conditions for the bus that has picked up the elementary students, say, to come back and pick up the high school students or vice versa during the winter.

Sir, there are very few new buses made available, or can be made available, to the school boards by the various contractors. Now, Sir, the contractors are operating in a business like manner and they have to make a profit or they would not be into the school bus business. There is nothing wrong with a bus contractor trying to make a profit, but the problem is, Sir, I am afraid that it is being done at the expense of the school boards, one, and certainly the school children, most importantly, because as I mentioned, there are inadequate numbers of buses.

The conditions of the buses are atrocious 1 in some cases 1with respect to safety, heating and radio communications of some kind. I would like for the minister to comment on that and to estin1ate, you know, how much he has calculated would, in fact, be eaten up by inflation and what the minister is prepared to do in terms of trying to make the school bus fonnula a little more 163~

March 20, 1975. Tape 514 RH - 3 flexible to meet the needs of the extreme areas of our Province. The typical example is the Northern Perdnsula and nortr of Port Saunders or Port au Cho ix; I am sorry, where there is not one inch of pavement for the 150 miles or so to St. Anthony, not one inch of pavement 1 all 1640

March 20, 1975 Tape no. 515 Page 1 - mw gravel road. Luckily this year, Sir, luckily, very luckily, this year they have had less snow than in any other previous year1 but there is no guarantee that this is going to be so next year. But I would like to hear the minister indicate whether or not they are going to build any more flexibility into the school bus transportation formula or whether in fact there is a need to build more flexibility. This can be overcome strictly by negotiating with the school board and giving them extra and additional grants if required for school bus operation. MR. WELLS: Mr.

Chairman, before the minister answers, I would like to make one or two coU111ents about this business of buses and school children, and I would like to hear the minister's views on one or two points in connection with it.

What I would like to do is refer to an incident which occurred, I suppose, five or six years ago in which I was involved, and it involved school busing, and it raised some interesting points,or at least points that I thought at the time were interesting that was the time about five years ago, I believe, when a decision was made by the appropriate school board in Gambo or under which Gamba comes, that school children would be bused into Gander. Now I think some children were already being bused into Gander to the larger school. I think this involved children not in high school but younger in age.

And the parents banded together and fought this proposal and subsequently were successful, as I recall, in having the plan to bus the children stopped. But it raised various interesting propositions. The first proposition was that when you close up schools in a coumunity, and when I am speaking of community now, perhaps 1,000 people, 2,000 people, that sort of size, when you do that, you are taking the teachers out of the community also. And these are, of course, in communities of that size the natural leaders, the people who play a very important

part in the development of the conmunity as a whole. I remember in that community at that time these people feeling very much 164i

March 20, 1975 Tape no. 515 Page 2 - mw that they did not like the idea of their teachers being taken away. This was one of the important factors because it reduced, they felt, the effectiveness and the viability and the spirit of the community as a whole. That was one factor. The other factor was, of course, the children themselves, in that because of having to be bused, in that case, thirty miles, it meant a very rigid

schedule for them. They had to be on the road before 8:00 a.m., as I understand it and recall it." They would have to leave the school in Gander somewhere around 3:00 p.m. in order to be home at a reasonable time. So it meant that their day was very rigidly organized and a good part of it was spent on the bus, and that is to say nothing of the difficulties that might be involved in winter transportation.

So that bearing these things in mind, and these things have been of concern to a lot 0£ people in Newfoundland from time to time whose children have had to do this 1 I would be interested in hearing from the minister what the thoughts of the department and the Department of Education are on this subject, and whether,looking to the future, the department anticipates busing would be reduced or increased or will it stay at its present levels?

Has the department given any thought to the viability and importance to small communities particularly of the school and the teachers as being part of the good development of the community? I have not heard much said about this in recent years, but I would be interested in, when the minister is talking about this matter generally, in hearing his views on the overall subject. 164~

March 20, 1975. Tape 516 RH - 1 MR. OTTENF.EIMER: Mr. Chairman, I will deal with the matters that were raised in the order in which they were raised. First, just a quick review of the bus policy from the point of view of cost sparing, just to put the matter in prospective.

Some years ago 1originally under the former administration, the position was, the cost sharing position was that government assumed seventy­ five per cent of bus transportation for high school students and ninety per cent for elementary students and then that developed into ninety per cent for all students and then that developed into one hundred per cent for all students in, I believe, 1971, 1970-71 that developed into one hundred per cent for all students, And then later there was what my note calls the Carter formula - there was a formula which I will not go into, but it was based on so much per mile depending on the distance and a differential on paved or gravel road.

That was in effect, I believe, for two years. Last year we instituted the present formula and it ia the same one which will be operative next year, except for the regular costs for bus transportation, ninety-five per cent is paid by the public Treasury through the Department of Education and five per cent by the school board. I have to say that as a formula, I think it is the best we have had. It ir. the best we have had.

Nor am I aware that there have been since last September while this has been in operation, that there have been any approaches or recommendations to the Department of Education to alter that formula. So, I think the ninety-five/five is quite acceptable to school boards. The vast majority of the amount is paid by the public Treasury and yet, obviously, there is still enough within the school board so that their involvement and commitment is there as well.

So, as to the overall formula, I think the ninety-five/five is fair and equitable and I can say that there have been no representations by school boards for a change since that formula 1643

1!. March 20, 1975. Tape 516 RII - 2 was instituted and that became operative last Sep.tember. With respect to the buses 1and the honourable gentleman from St.

Barbe North referred to the safety of the buses and Certainly all of us are very concerned about that 1 by law, four checks are required per year and to the best of my knowledge they are made and if any honourable gentlemen,you know, are aware certainly that that is not being - that that in any instances that is not - you know, anybody is subverting that or circumventing that, then certainly I would wish to know, but that there are four checks per school year, two of the drivers, two checks on the drivers and health examina~ions, two examinations of the drivers and two mechanical ones of the buses.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Either highways or garages authorized ·by them and on their behalf - either the Department of Highways officials or people authorized by them by motor vehicle inspection people. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Right. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, can the minister indicate how many school bus contractors throughout the Province or approximately what percentage of school bus contractors would also own a garage that would be authorized by the Department of Highways to carry out that inspection?

Are there any instances of that type of situation where obviously - MR. OTTENHE.IMER : That, right, I am sorry, - that ·I would not know. I am not aware that there are very many but, you know, I do not know. That I do not know. If the honourable ·gentleman thinks that there is the possibility of abuse through that, then certainly it is something which could be looked into. I will look and see if it is a real problem and if so, one could think of a regulation that, you know, if there are such instances 1then 1644

March 20, 1975. Tape 516 RH - 3 that the check would be made other than by a garage owner who is also a bus owner. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. OTTENiIEIMEll: Yes, they also do some of the checks. So, in general, there are these four checks, two of the drivers and two of the buses. With respect to two-way radioes, there was a requirement some years ago that buses have two way radioes and at the request of the majority of the school boards it was no longer lliade a requirement. Now, it is optional, but if - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. OTTENRED1ER: Pardon? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

OTTENREIMER.: But if in any region a school board wishes to have two way radio operation, that would also be ninety-five/five shared. So, the option is there and if in any areas because of geography or weather or whatever the case might be, a school board feels that there should be two way radioes, then they could be installed and operative in the same cost sharing of ninety~five per cent of - in other words, the cost to the school board would only be five per cent. 1645

March 20, 1975 Tape 517 (Afternoon) Now with reference to the matters drawn to the Committee's attention by the honourable Member for St. John's South l this, PK - 1 of course, is a matter of real, you know, intrinsic to Newfoundland geography, I suppose, to a very large extent, to our patterns of settlement, to the fact that we have many connnunities, and many small communities, and that the pattern of settlement has been many small communities rather than a small number of larger communities.

And I think there is nci doubt as well that certainly in the . past there have been instances, if one wishes, of over-centralization! of over-centralization. It is a very, very real problem because like all problems there are two sides, there are perhaps .twenty-two but there are two essential ones. And one is that when in a community a school is closed, they are no -longer operative and people are bused to a school in another community 1there is a sense of co11D11unity loss, and more than a sense of community loss.

You know, if there is not a school in a connnunity, and if teachers are no longer living there then there is no doubt that there is loss to the organic day to day life of that community.

There is the other position as well, and that is while obviously a great number of people have done very well and.have gotten excellent educations and excellent character formations in small schools without 1perhaps 1 amenities on~ sees in larger schools,still I think there is a certain level 1very difficult to identify with precision 1 a certain .level beyond which it is not in the child's interest that he stay in such a - one would say, such a small school or a school which would be devoid of a number of things, whereby going seven, eight, or nine miles they would be there where there would be a larger number of teachers, where there would be the possibility of specialized instruction, where there would be more adequate library ana resource material.

So there are these at least two considerations. I think that one could say that in general to transport below

March 20, 1975 Tape 517 (Afternoon) PK - 2 Grade VII, which would be around twelve or thirteen-year-olds, to transport people below that grade level, that age level shall not be undertaken unless absolutely necessary. If there is no school or if it is impossible to get adequate facilities, if it is impossible or well nigh ir,possible to get qualified teachers or whatever the reasons might be - but certainly in the department's point of view,and I am quite sure that here - well I am sure that here I would also be speaking in the point of view of the school boards of the Province, the school board community.

AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, I think that is the case. But wherever possible we endeavour not to transport pupils below Grade VII,which we regard as sort of junior high school. I think that in general is the department's policy and the school boards 1 policy as well. But I cannot say that in no case does that happen, but wherever possible we avoid doing it. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, just one last question or observation from me on this particular vote, the transportation of school children.

It is my observation! and the observation of many others,that many of our children in this Province going to school who are being bused from smaller co111111unities into larger communities are being denied the right of the, you know, full education. They are in the school for the purely curricular or academic hours of that particular school. Now I realize that it is the school board policy 1or it may be up to the contractor, the school bus contractor when these kids are bused away from school back home.

But it has come to my attention in a great number of communities or places that the school buses do pick up the children immediately after the bell goes, and consequently - well let us take an example - I think this applies - you had 164"/

March 20, 1975 Tape 518 IB-1 kids being bused into certain city schools here, say from Pouch Cove, as an example. Is that correct? Cove? Are kids being bused in from Pouch AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Yes, I think so. MR. F. ROWE: Right. That is just an example. These kids are picked up when the last bell goes for the end of the school day. Consequently, these students are being denied the opportunity to become involved in various, what we call, extracurricular activities, such as sports activities, any pain ting c,lasses or science clubs and this kind of this.

Now, once again, I realize that it may be the policy of tht school board, or there may be other factors that result in this kind of a situatjon. Have the minister and his department given any consideration to setting down some sort of a time, you know ~ for transporting these students back home rather than illilllediately after the bell goes. Now, I realize that another problem is that some students would want to get back home. It may be even fifty, fifty. Fifty per cent of the students want to get back home to their communities

whereas fifty per cent of the students may want to stay in that school to use the library facilities, the gymnasium facilities or any science club or any other kind of so called extracurricular activities they can get into. We have to look at education as more than the purely curricular and purely academic aspects of school overall activities. I realize it is a difficult problem, but are the minister and his department aware of this situation, number one·, and have any steps been taken to try to resolve this particular problem that is a most difficult one 1I understand? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

There is no doubt validity in what the honourable gentleman says. I said earlier that certainly there should be no busing below Grade VII unless absolutely necessary. In general of course, I think one can apply the general rule, that unless the advantages outweight the disadvantages, then I think that has to be the criterion essentially unless the educational advantages 1648

March 20, 1975 Tape 518 outweigh the disadvantages. That has to be the criterion for centralization or busing or bringing people from a number of communities to one locality. That 1I think,is the criterion that boards in the Department of Education endeavor to apply as fairly and as equitably as it can. IB-2 We are and do encourage boards not to view the end of the instruction period as the end of the school involvement p~riod. It is not somethjng that we can prescribe.

I do not think it is something we should prescribe because obviously weather conditions, distances, particular needs in particular localities - of course in some areas there are quite active youth organizations, 4-h clubs, Allied Youth and other youth activities which fulfill a very real purpose. Certainly the general premise put forward, that the full ends of education are not achieved just when the formal instructjon period ends, there is no disputing that.

We do everything and will continue to encourage boards to have a certain amount of flexibility there so that buses do not have to leave as a rule, neceEsarily or on a daily basis immediately when formal instruction is over. On moti~n 605-03-03 and 03-04 carried. AN HONOURABLE MEMRF.R: Inaudible. MR. CHAIR~AN: Shall 03~05 carry? }IR. OTTENIIBIMER: Unless the honourable gentleman wishes to repeat the points he made or wishes me to repeat the ones I made. I think we spent quite some time, but I am certainly willing to do it again. AN HONOURABLE },lEM!lER: You do not want to go through that again, do you? MR.

OTTENHEIMER: No, I do not particularly want to. I think we have covered it, and even the honourable gentleman's collearue does not - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR . OTIE'.NHEillER: Pardon! 164~

March 20, 1975 Tape no. 519 Page 1 - mw MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 03-06 carry? MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, you know, there are a number of points I do not think the minister has answered adequately concerning the 605-03-05, building and equ~pping schools, capital grants to the school boards.

Now, Sir, I would like to start off by saying - and I have to react to some cononents made by the Minister of Fisheries, because we, and obviously the government, are completely aware of the problem facing the school boards of this Province, and I do not want to repeat myself, Sir, and I will not try to repeat myself - but we did make a positive and sensible suggestion to this cononittee as to what policy the government should have with regard to financing education in this province.

Sir, we mentioned this whole business of a crown corporation, and the Minister of Fisheries, Sir, got up in excellent debating style, excellent wit, excellent satire - AN HON. MEMBER MR. CHAIRMAJll: MR. F. ROWE: (Inaudible). Order, please! - a good jovial style, Sir, and the style distracted from the main point altogether. Sir, the minister missed~the point completely and that is the point that we were trying to make is that the only solution to resolving the financial state of the school boards in this province is to set up some method of long-term financing.

The minister did not mention long-term financing at all. MR. OTTENHEIMER: (Inaudible). MR. F. ROWE: The minister played with crown co-r:porations; played with crown corporations, and some of the things he said made sense Of course, such a crown corporation does not produce revenue of its own, and it would require the guarantee of the provincial government SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear ! Hear! MR. F. ROWE: You do not have to be a genius to figure that out. We knew that. We did not need any minister of the crown to point that 16~0

March 20, 1975 Tape no. 519 :eage 2 detail out. But there are assets involved. Buildings are go:l.ng to be built, But the main point. Mr, Chairman. is this. and let me repeat it, that in 1973 tjie Federation of School Boards in this Province said that they required $132 million, starting in 1973, they required $132 lllillion up to the year 1980, From 1973 to 1980 the school boards required $132 million in order to have some reasonabl.e progress in n~w school construction in this Province. Now, Sir. what has . the govenmient offered the scbool boards of this Province. the Uenominational Educational Authorities?

The government has offered the school boards or the T)enQDdnational Educational Committees $135 inillion from 1975-1976 to 1985. I believe it is, ~135 million from 1975-1976 up to 1585, with $10 million last year and $8 million the year before and $8 lllillion the year before and $8 million the year before, $10 million this year. $11 million next year, $12 million the following year. $13 million the following year up to $14 million, then $15 million, $15 million, $15 million. $15 million up to 1985. 1651

March 20, 1975 Tape No.520 Sir, the school boards are going to go bankrupt or they are going to have to cut back almost completely, halt, stop school construction in this Province, Sir, it has already been publicly announced by the Chairman of the Federation of School Boards and the Executive Secretary, that they are going to have to slash their programmes for this coming year, slash their programmes for this coming year, slash their programmes. Sir, we have bad a very unfortunate ·fire out in, where was it? Harbour Grace or Bay Roberts - AN HON. MEMBER: Bay Roberts. MR.

ROWE: Bay Roberts, we had a very unfortunate fire there that was not completely covered by insurance, We have had another unfortunate fire in St. Anthony that is going to cut into the capital budget this year, it has to, That alone may set back, these factors alone may set back the building progranmes of the various Denominational Educational Authorities this year.

Sir, I repeat the goverDDl.ent has not come up with a programme, a programme, in spite of this one announced in the new Budget, This ten year programme, boasting of an additional $25 million th~t really does not come until years in the future, the government is palying loose with this $25 million. It is leaving the impression · that they are making $25 million additional available to the school boards, as if it was going to drop right into the school boards this year.

This is an additional $25 million over a ten year period, and I repeat this because it is important, because that is a total of $135 million over the next ten years, up to 1985)wben the school boards in 1973 asked for $132 million up to the year 1980, Of course,is you look at the value of the dollar that $132 million back in 1973 is about equivalent $135 million today.

So the government has offered the Denominational E·ducational Committees and the school boards of this province exactly what they asked for in 1973 with one glaring problem, they have offered them what they asked for but they offered it to them over the next ten years instead of over the next five years. That is the difference, 165t!

March 20, 1975 Tape No. 520 NM - 2 So, Sir, the only results, the only possible results, there are only two results that you can have as a result of this new government policy or this new government committment, that is school boards going bankrupt or curtailment, a moratorium, a complete halt to new)significant new school construction in this province within the foreseeable future. These are the only two alternatives, Sir, bankruptcy or a moratorium on new school construction.

Sir, the government's stated policy over the last couple of years has been that they will not concentrate funds on the building of new primary and elementary schools in this province. Sir, what kind of a statement is that, fn view of the fact that the school boards are faced with the two alternatives that I have mentioned, bankruptcy or a meratorium on school construction.

I submit, Sir, that this honourable government, this PC administration should have gone after all the DREE funds that they could get for purposes of primary and elementary education and if they have been advised by experts in the field of education that DREE schools are too rich for our blood, they are too costly or expensive to maintain; there is an obvious solution to that, modify the specifications, modify the specifications for DREE schools.

If this PC Administration does not think that we should have the same standards of schools that they got in other parts of Canada, if they think DREE schools are too good for Newfoundland but they are good enough for Ontario, these types of schools, good enough for certain parts of Nova Scotia and Alberta and British Columbia and Quebec, 165J

March 20, 1975. Tape 521 RH - 1 these types of schools, the specifications of these DREE schools were similar to schools being built on the .mainland. Do we not deserve as much as the rest of Canada? If we do not deserve, so be it, if this is the priority of the feeling of this administration. If we cannot afford, if we cannot afford to maintain such schools, probably we do not need a cooling system in our schools. We certainly need an exchange of air. There is nothing wrong with circulation of air in schools such as, you know, obviously for hygienic reasons.

But, Sir, if DREE schools are too rich for our blood, for this Provincial Government, if they cannot afford it, if they cannot afford to maintain such schools, if they are too expensive to maintain, surely the reasonable alternative to solve the dilemma of the school boards in this Province is to renegotiate with DREE so that we can change the specifications of such schools so that we do not have fancy cooling systems for schools in the middle of Labrador, if that is the case, or fancy cooling systems for schools in the middle of the - up on the Northern Peninsula.

Sir, I submit that the only solution to the dilemma of the school boards in this Province was to take advantage of DREE funds for the purposes of school construction in this Province. Sir, the minister said from now ori his administration will change its emphasis, its priorities from primary, elementary, secondary education as far as the use of DREE funds is concerned or federal funds, to the vocational and technical area of our Province. Sir, we all got the answer to this great change of emphasis.

I have already indicated in my preliminary remarks the percentage increase in emphasis with respect to expenditure in vocational technical education. The increase, the rate of increase, the percentage of increase of expenditure by this administration, Mr. Chairman, in the area of vocational and technical education is less than that of the previous term of office of the previous administration. This is the government that say that they are 1654

March 20, 1975. Tape 521 RH - 2 putting more emphasis in the field of vocational and technical education. They are putting more emphasis in planning, Sir, and that is all. The minister has revealed to this committee that the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs has yet to meet with his Federal counterparts to discuss plans for the building of vocational and technical wings on existing high schools. Sir, there is nothing wrong with that. It is a good concept, the so-called comphrehensive school concept, a good concept, Sir, but it is not action on the part of this administration.

There has been no agreement with the Federal Government for funding this. This administration has yet to negotiate or even talk with Ottawa on this particular subject, and meanwhile, Sir, AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. ROWE: Am I correct or am I wrong? This administration has yet to - AN HONOURABLE l'IEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE: On the whole subject of financing the vocational and technical wings on schools. We were advised, the committee was advised by the Minister of Education the other day, Mr.

Chairman, that the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs or responsible for Intergovenunental Affairs is going to go to Ottawa, is going to go to Ottawa to discuss plans or to try to talk about an agreement or get an agreement with the Federal Government for the purpose of putting these wings on the schools. Now, Sir, if that is their emphasis on vocational education, it is a good emphasis. It is a good emphasis if it was action, but it is not action. It is talk. Why, we could even have an election before the minister gets to Ottawa, Mr. Chairman. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Watch your language. MR.

ROWE: And there are great emphasis on the polytechnical institute. It has come to $500,000 to commence planning. Now, 1655

March 20, 1975. Tape 521 RH - 3 Sir, if this administration is going to put a greater emphasis on a vocational and technical education, let them put a greater emphasis on it, but not at the expense of the primary and elementary schools in this Province when again this year we see only $10 million made available for school construction, plus 1 165ti

Harch 20, 1975 Tape 522 (Afternoon) PK -1 of course, the equalization bid of $2 million. Sir, the school boards of this Province want a system of long term financing. So let us not hear any ministers opposite get up and mock the system of a crown corporation.

The crown corporation concept was put forward for one sole purpose 1 to commence a system of long term financing, so that the corporation, or the government or an agency of government could borrow so many hundreds of millions of dollars over a twenty year period so ·that the school boards of this Province can reasonably and sensibly plan a construction strategy for a ten or twenty year period instead of having to plan on a year to year basis - and then because of a fire, or then because they did not get what they expected to get, they got to go ahead and scrap everything altogether.

Now, Sir, we also put forth the idea that the government should do as is being done in other provinces and states of North America 1that they should move towards the idea of aentralized responsibility for financing primary and elementary and secondary education in this Province. This is the general movement throughout North America. Why, Sir? Because educational authorities are realizing that any system of local taxation for purposes of education or any systems or methods are regressive, and they are grossly unfair.

And for the Minister of Social Services, Sir, to get up and compare a poll tax with a moose licence defies any neurons that anybody might have in their brains. Imagine, Sir, comparing a poll tax with a moose licence. A poll tax, Sir, and a property tax - MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please'. Maybe I have not been following the honourable member closely enough but the poll tax and the moose tax appear to have little relevancy to 605-03-05, building and equipping schools. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. CHAIRMAN: ~. F. ROWE: No, Sir. Maybe the honourable member might - If the Chairman would listen pr0bably a little more carefully, Mr.

Chairman~ and equipping schools. I am talking about this vote)building

March 20, 1975 Tape 522 (Afternoon) PK - 2 AN HON. MEMBER: And for that you need money. MR. F. ROWE: And for that you need money. And the money comes from one of two sources - three sources; the federal government, the provincial government or from school boards through assessments or from school tax authorities. AN HON. MEMBER: But not from moose licences. MR. F. ROWE: I am now on the subject of the unfairness, the inequity, the regressive nature of school taxes and assessments.

I am referring to a rebuttal, I am rebutting a rebuttal when the Minister of Social Services defended school taxes by saying, sure we have to buy a moose licence to kill a moose. we have to buy_ a car licence to - MR. CHAIR.l.!AN: MR. F. ROWE: MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, ple,;ise! drive a car. Order, please! I believe that my interruption was timely, and I believe the honourable member has debated the subject of school tax under the first heading, the minister's office, 601.

If we were to use the honourable member's reasoning on this subject the honourable member could discuss school tax on every topic, on every subhead. So consequently I suggest to the hono.urable member to get on with matters that are iirectly relevant to 605. MR. F. ROWE: Is the Chairman saying I cannot talk about school taxation or assessments under the heading of school construction? Is that what the Chairman is saying? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. 1658

March 20, 1975 MR. F.B.ROWE: Tape no. 523 Page I - mw You can talk about this as long as you want to, Mr. Chairman, and I intend to talk about it unless I am thrown out of the House, because I honestly think that this is the only relevant heading under which I can talk about financing education in this province. Am I going to talk about it under the School for the Deaf? Am I going to talk about it under supervision, special education, university, College of Fisheries? This is the only place I can talk about it.

I am talking about it because I have put forward the idea before and there have been arguments on the other side that I am now rebutting. I think it is my right to continue to do so. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Now this matter has not been objected to by any of the honourable members to my left and apparently it is not their wish to do so. However, just so that the Chair has not "slept on its rights",. I believe that the honourable member is irrelevant in getting into these larger arguments that could be more reasonably debated under the first heading,which he did at some length.

But the Chair is not going to enforce the rule if, in fact, there is acquiescence that the honourable member can debate it. Should the subject of a ruling have to be made, I would be quite precise on it. There are many precedents for the type of debate that can be carried under subheads. MR. F. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am waiting for the Minister of Fisheries now to jump to his feet. MR. SD-!MO'NS: (J:naudible). MR. F. ROWE: We have submitted that a school tax and the assessment formula is regressive and unfair and, therefore, should be a~olished.

Now, Sir, the government stands on record as having said that they will 165~

March 20, 1975 Tape no. 523 Page 2 - mw continue with school taxes and assessments in this province. They stand on record as having said that. They.will not change the existing unfair,regressive system that we have for the sake of ten miserable million dollars, $10 million, Sir. Surely, an administration that has a $1 billion budget can take the responsibility for getting that additional $10 million for purposes of education if their priorities were in the area of education so far as that is concerned.

Because, Sir, as has been repeated in this House time and time again that even if the school taxes and the assessments were fair, even if they were fair, even if they were based on a person's ability to pay, we are not getting the full educational value for the dollars collected. We are not getting the full educational value for the dollars collected because in some instances, twenty-five per cent of the dollars collected go to the administrative costs of that school tax authority or the school board.

Indirectly, it could be more than that through the court cases in Magistrates Court where a lot of parents are brought to to pay up their school assessments, when they do not believe in paying them because of the conditions of the school in that particular area. Now, Sir, I submit that any government - well, we have already submitted that this government can collec·t that money without increasing taxes.

And it was suggested because of the change in the amount of revenue through four tax sources that I named that gave us $211 million this year instead of $199 million. 'And, Sir, if this government, as it has stated, has great faith in the economy and the generation of revenue in this province, they are saying that the money can come out of the general revenue of the Province, this additional four, five or six.per cent. That is what they are saying. They have admitted it indirectly that they have such great faith in the economy of this Province that they are expecting increas_ing the increased revenues.

They underestimated their revenues last year so consequently, Mr. Chairman, the money can come without increasing taxes. 1 6 -~o .,, u

March 20, 1975 Tape 524 (Afternoon) There is another way that they can get the money, Sir, tf they place their priorities in the proper area. PK - 1 The $221,000 that is going to be spent on redistribution for additional members 1 that money can be used for education instead of increasing the number of members in this House. Newfoundland and Labrador does not need additional seats, they need full-time politicans 1 that is what they need. That is what this Province needs full- time politicans, not fifty-one members. AN HON. MEMBER: This is not relevant. MR. F.

ROWE: And the money - it is quite relevant - the money thjs $221,000 can be used - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. F. ROWE: I am Dot finished the list yet, Mr. Chairman. If the Hon. }11nister of Municipal Affairs and Housing will listen and add up the figure he is going to get a bit of a jolt. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. F. ROWE: The Premier's office, Sir, $472,000 - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. F. ROWE: this money can be used - HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR.

CROSBIE: On a point of order.these comments are quite irrelevant to the item under consideration, which is the construction and equipping of schools, and a tiresome repetition of votes on current account that does not need to be there, and the gentleman's opinion 1has nothing to do with capital account on the construction and equippiny of schools. J!R. F. ROWE: Mr.Chairman, if I may speak to the point of order.

I submit, Sir, that this is completely relevant because I am now putting forth areas from which the government can draw to spend money in the field of education, and thereby eliminate and abolish the school tax authorities in this Province. The minister the other night without being overruled gave his ideas of where the money would come from if school tax authorities were abolished. Now may I be 1661

March 20, 1975 Tape 524 (Afternoon) PK - 2 permitted to give my suggestions as to where the money can come from if we abolish the school tax authorities, ·and school assessments. Sir, if I am not permitted to give my suggestions as to where the money can come from if we eliminate school tax authorities and school assessments I submit that are two different rules being used for either sidr of the House. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, the honourable gentleman is being quite irrelevant in his observations.

The school tax authorities and what might be done or where money might be saved was discussed under general debate on the Department of Education. We are now into the specific heading here of building and equipping schools. We are now in the estimates. And the estimates is where the Oppoaition members are suppose to ask questions arid get information, not have an address and reply debate or a budget debate on every · item in the estimates. It is very clear, Mr.

Chairman, that he should stick to the building and equipping of schools and stop this tedious listing of monies spent on current account that he says can be saved and spent to equip them. MR. F. ROWE: Further to that point of order, Mr. Chairman. We are talking about,as correctly stated by the minister,about school construction, capital grant. I am completely relevant in talking about the sources of money for purposes of school construction. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hearr MR. F. ROWE: I talked about federal moni~s, provincial monies, school board monies, and school tax authority monies. AN HON. MEMBER: Ilear! Hear!

MR. F. ROWE: We have talked about various tyPes ·of taxation, provincial taxation. I am now p·utting forward where the money can come from to help to build very badly needed schools in this Province. The minister has given his suggestions, may I be permitted to give my suggestions where the money is coming fr~m? Or I can ask individual questions, and that would certainly prolong it, Mr. Chairman, I can assure you if I start asking individual questions 166l

!larch 20, 1975 Tape 524 (Afternoon) PK - 3 instead of listing them off with some degree of continuity. MR. CHAl.RNAN (DUNPHY) : The Minister of Fisheries' point is well taken. The honourable Member for S·t . Barbe North is not being relevant to the heading under discussion. By the same token if he were discussing the Executive Council of the Premier's office you would not be referring to education. So it is not relevant and out of order. MR. F.

ROWE: Well, Mr, Chainnan, if we abolished school tait authorities> !Ind I have given - you see the Minister of Fisheries does not understand the different stages of an argument or the different stages of debate •. honourable House 1663 I have already pointed out in this

March 20, 1975. Tape 562 RH - 3 we can call it a difference of opinion if he wishes, and I am quite happy to debate it at any length he wishes according to the rules that Your Honour is enforcing, the rules of the House, is to get at the truth. I am not sure that we have got at the truth. The minister has done his level best to assist,and I am the first to say that)and it may be the committee can go no further on the point.

But I reject with comtempt and scorn the minister's suggestion that somehow I, by asking whether this administration have honoured a policy which they publicly say they have honoured, whether they have in Iact honoured it, that I am somehow breeding religious strife. I have never - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Well, now the gentleman from St. John's Centre has chosen to enter. We will all be in it now. We will all have a great to do about it tonight and if that is what the Minister of Education and his colleagues and his ~rethren on the government ranks wish,and if it is in order, then, sobeit.

But let me just say, I reject it with all the contempt and the scorn that I can muster for any argument, not for the minister but for the argument itself, The issue is a valid one and we can go no further on it because I think the minister has told us all that he knows and that is all any man can do, but I 1764

March 20, 1975 Tape 525 gentleman - 1-!R. F. ROWE: There is no such thing as a point of disorder, Mr. Chairman. MR. CROSBIE: A point of order. }IR, F. ROWE: Are you going to listen to a point of disorder. MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Order, please! I recognize the honourable gentleman from St. John's West. MR. CROSBIE: for - The honourable gentleman has now been speaking AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: The point of disorder is standing up there now. MR. CROSBIE: Now, do not get so touchy. What a disposition! ~r. Chairman, the honourable gentleman has now been speaking for IB-2 three quarters of an hour.

Does he want any of his questions answered? If he does, he should sit down and let the minister answer his questions. This is the estimates, the Committee of Supply. If the honourable gentleman wants to make speeches about where the money should come from, Mr. Chairman, and attack the government and say abolish the school taxes and the money can come from here and do not say this and that, that is the Budget Speech. The debate on the Budget Speech is going to come. The Address in Reply is going to come. This is a Committee on estimates. Mr.

Chairman, this Committee is supposed to consider what the government plans to spend its money on. The honourable gentleman should be asking how the $10 million is going to be spent,so on and so forth 1not getting on with all this tiresome, fatiguing, repetitious bunkum that he has been getting on with for the last three quarters of an hour. MR. F. ROWE: To that point of order, Sir, there is no - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: There is no point of order. MR. F. ROWE: You see, there is the contempt for the Committee, Sir. It is one big joke with the honourable Minister of Fisheries, one big 166b

!-<arch 20, 1975 Tape 525 joke. When the honourahle ~inister of Fisheries can p:et away with something, fine and dandy, but when we attempt to do the exact, same t hing as the honourable Minister of Fisheries, he gets up on poin ts of disord er,o f all things. 1-fR. CROSBIE: Get on with i t. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Co on home "John'' . IB-3 M'R. F . ROWE: But to the point of order, Mr. Chairman , the so-cdled point of order, there ts nothing to my knowledge in the ~tanding Orders that I am confined to asking questions of the Minister of Educa t ion when dealtng w1. th any vote or any es ttmates in this Committee.

The r e is nothin g that suggests that I am confined to asking questions only. I can make a speech . l can ask questions. I can i~sult the ministe r and be brought to order and 1 can insult the Chai r and be brought to o r der, hut there is nothing sayinp: that T cannot talk, cannot debate, cannot rebut the Minister of Fisheries or t he Minister of Social Services or any other minii- ter who has spoken on this point . 166ti

March 20, 1975. Tape 526 (Afternoon) RH - l AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROHE: ---- So, Mr. Chainnan, I continue to suggest that if we take the expenses, the additional expenses to this Province because of the Election Act expenses and revising new lists which are going to come to $205,000. Royal commission, $246,000; publicity and investigation in the Department of Tourism, $2. 3 million. MR . CHAIRMAN (Dunphy): Order, please! MR. ROWE: ---- The Silver Anniversary, you will quickly get that $10 million that you need, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy): Order, please!

The honourable member is persisting in being irrelevant. I would suggest that he would get to the topic at hand and if not, I will more than likely have to ask him to take his seat. MR. ROWE: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, I did not hear that last comment. I would like to hear it before I continue. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy): I was cautioning the honourable member that he would become relevant to the topic which is 605-03-05 and if he persists in being irrelevant, I will have to ask him to take his seat. MR. ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, I do not know what I got to do to try to convince people in this committee stage that it requires money to build schools. This is what I am talking about. Where can the money come from? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE: Where can the money come from, Sir? Sir, if the minister wishe .s to answer some of my questions, I will give the honourable minister an opportunity to do so. However, let it go on record, Mr. Chairman, that this administration is not prepared to set up a system of long term financing for the purposes of school construction in this Province. They have 166'1

March 20, 1975. Tape 526 RH - 2 given the school boards, the Denominational Educational Authorities exactly the amount that they asked for in 1973, approximately $135 million. They have given it to them over a ten year period instead of what they asked for over a five year period. Let that go on record, Sir. This administration is not prepared to save the school boards, to continue with some semblance of new school construction in this Province by doing what all educational authorities have been asking for over the years, even during the Liberal years, Sir, and that is a system of long term financing.

This is the difference between this crowd over here, Sir, and that honourable crowd over there. We have stood up here and admitted our mistakes in the past and we have answered for them. We have changed policy with changing times and the same holds true for the school taxes. The Liberal administration set it up. This administration continued on with it. We have seen the inequities in it. The people of Newfoundland see it. The school boards, the school tax authorities, themselves, do not want it .

Let that go on record, that this administration is against the abolition of school assessments and school tax authorities and will not take on the simple little job with their $1 billion Budget. They are not willing to take on this additional small burden of $10 million out of $1 billion Budget and make the system more in line with what is going on in the other parts of Canada and the United States at this present time.

They are unwilling, Sir, to take the waste of money that I was trying to list out, that I cannot mention now becauseof the fact that I will be ruled out of order and asked to sit down, I cannot continue on with listing off the hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars of waste of this administration to George MacLean and silver anniversaries and everything else. I went 1668

March 20, 1975. Tape 526 RH - 3 to the trouble, Sir, of going through the complete estimates, the complete estimates, from the first to the last page and meticulously went through them and added up every single, little one there and got it down on a list and I am not permitted to read out to this connnittee where the money can come from 166~

March 20, 1975 Tape No. 527 NM - 1 to replace this regressive school tax authority and school assessments which is something that some poor dedicated people in this Province have been forced to set up to try to help out the school boards and the education of their children in various areas of this Province.

We have had examples, Sir, on that honourable side of the House, where they have said we are against school tax authorities and school assessments and school boards, giving the impression that we are against the people, the individuals on school tax authorities and the people who are assessing,the children and the parents in various parts of our Province. We are all for the individuals, Sir, they are honestly trying their best to do something that the government itself should be doing.

We are against this stupid, ridiculous concept, that has evolved into an educational, financial monster in this province, unfair, inequitable, regressive, not related to a person's ability to pay, cumbersome, inefficient, duplication of the minister's resources. I have said it so often, Sir, I thought it would penetrate somebody's grey matter on the other side. Now, Sir, if this is the way this government wants to finance education in this Province, the people of this Province will speak when the times comes.

Sir, the minister has been negligent in his leadership in terms of advancing a reasonable formula for financing education in this province and the minister should stand up and admit - the Minister of Fisheries says we are only saying it because it is popular. Now what is popularity, Mr. Speaker? Popularity means that if something is popular it must mean that the majority of the people in the Province are for it. Now what are we supposed to be doing in this committee or in this honourable House?

Are we representing the majority of the people and protecting the minority or are we representing the minority and making believe we are protecting the majority. 1670

March 20, 1975 Tape No. 527 NM - 2 Why,if _the PC's were not popular, Sir, they would not have been elected. MR. SIMMONS: That is not the reason. AN HON. MEMBER: That is why they are going to be elected again. MR. ROWE: And because they are unpopular is going to be the reason they area not going to be re-elected, Well let us not carry on with this foolishness about we are for it, because it is popular, we are for it because the majority of the people desire the abolition of school taxes and assessments in this Province. That is why we are for it? Why else would we be for it?

Now, I do not know whether the minister has mentioned, he did not answer some of the questions that were asked previously, I do not know whether he will answer some of the issues raised now. I asked the minister if he would indicate to this committee the allotment to the three denominations,you know,in lieu of this was because of~ MR. OTTENHEIMER: DREE equalization. MR. ROWE: The equalization because of DREE grants made available in the year 1970-74 I believe is $16 million over a five year period.

I asked the minister two questions on that; number one,what is the formula that is being used for the allocation of funds to the three denominations, what are the three denominations involved - AN HON. MEMBER: Two. MR. ROWE: Three. AN HON. MEMBER: There are only two. MR. ROWE: No, it is three. It is three. That is the whole point. That is why I am asking the question.

It is stated in the Throne Speech that it is three;and secondly 1I ask the honourable minister if he would indicate what happened to the amendment that went to Ottawa or forwarded to Ottawa to, I think it had something to do with an amendment to term seventeen of the Terms of Union of Newfoundland with Canada with respect to what religions were, what is the word I am looking for, were not accepted, were acknowledged, that is not the word - 1671

March 20, 1975 Tape No. 527 NM - 3 MR. SIMMONS: Were recognized. MR. ROWE: - w:ere reCQgn:i.zed - MR, SIMMONS: Under the BNA Act. MR. ROWE; - under the BNA Act as religions or denominations for educ.ational purposes,and of course I am refecrring here to the Pentecostal Ass•blies. So I want to ki:low wh•t happened to that 8111endment7number one. Number two, whllt is their .allocation lillder this $16 million, or $2,2 million this year for the equalization because of this DUE contribution made earlier. 167~

March 20, 1975 Tape 528 (Afternoon) PK - 1 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: (DUNPHY): Shall 60 - MR. SIMMONS: 11r. Chairman, before this subhead passes, and before the minister answers some of the questions that my colleague wants. There are one or two points that I want to make on the subject of building and equipping schools.

When the Budget Speech was delivered by the ~inister of Finance,in the subsequent day or so after that, I did make some statements both here in the House and also publicly outside of the House that I felt that there was a fair amount of deception in various parts of the Budget Speech. Certainly of the areas relates to this very subhead. There is very real deception - MR. CHAIIUWl (DUNPHY) : Order, please! The honourable member is referring, actually he is not referring,he he saying that the honourable Minister of Finance was practicing deception in the deliverance of the Budget.

I am asking him to withdraw that statement. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, it is my understanding that I had riot suggested that the deception was deliberate. I am saying that there are items in the Budget Speech which are deceiving,for whatever reason they are deceiving, Mr. Chairman, is another question. I am not suggesting they are deliberate, and'if I had said that I would withdraw it. I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, to say something is deceiving, that it deceives, whether unintentionally or otherwise, is quite parliamentary. I know of no other way to say it, Mr. Chairman.

It deceived a lot of people involved in school boards. And if I were allowed to pursue my point, I think I would certainly be able to make it. You may not agree with it but I think you would see that to some people the items I refer to are deceiving, they are misleading. Now whether deliberate is another matter, Mr. Chairman, altogether. I was coming to the subhead under which we are, the matter of building and equipping schools, capital funds. I was saying here is one area where the impressions that the Budget left with the public and with that segment of the public, in particular, which is concerned 1673

March 20, 1975 Tape 528 (afternoon) with school construction and funds for school construction. This is an area where the impression left was less than the correct one, less than honest, call it what you will. PK - 2 The impression, Mr. Chairman, that was given, and I think the minister went out of his way to give, that there was a lot more money for the construction of schools this year. Now, Mr. Chairman, it all depends on who is doing the additions, and what you include in your additions.

And if you loot at this particular subhead it is quite clear, of course, that last year there was $10 million for school construction. And this year there are $10 million for school construction. And $10 million against $10 million, in my language, is the same thing. There is no increase. It was $10 million last,year and it is $10 million this year. That is no increase.

Now where the Minister of Finance, and,I would think, the Minister of Educati.on gets the information to back up the statement that there are all kinds of increases is because of the money that is in there under 06, which we will come to shortly I hope, Mr. Chairman, the money which is being used in lieu of DREE, and other funds there for school projects that are in the process of cluing up. But, Mr.

Chairman, these are funds which are already committed, in terms of new dollars, in terms of new dollars being made available to the Denominational Educational Committee, it is $10 million this year, like it was $10 million last year. And I just wanted, Mr. Chairman, to correct that misimpression that there is not more money. Now I realize under 06, the equalization grant in lieu of DREE)there are a couple of million dollars there for two of the denominations, as I understand it.

Perhaps the minister will indicate that two of the denominations the Integrated Committee and the Pentecostal Committee are entitled to their proportjoned ~hare of this $2.7 million because of the disproportions that were created at the time DREE funds were allocated to the various DREE schools which were constructed in the past few years. But that is quite a different matter, although it does make available to those two committees some additional funds. 1674

!larch 20, 1975 Tape 528 (Afternoon} But let the record show, Mr. Chairruar., that in the main there has been no increase. No increase at all, not one iota, not one dolla r , not one cent in the amount of funds available. How, Mr. Chairman, I am no expert on school construction, I was i nvolve d in it to some degree. I have some knowledge as to how the cost of school construction has escalated over the past few years . I am told, and these figures are r ough , tut I am told that in the ~ast three or four years the cost of school construction is just about double the cost of frame 16"1~ PK - 3

March 20, 1975 Tape no. 529 Page 1 - mw construction for instance, wooden construction, if you like, frame construction has gone from about $18 or $19 a square foot three or four years ago, about four years ago, up to $35 or $37 depending on whose figures we use and that the more durable type of construction, the blocks and the mortar and the steel~that has climbed well over the $40 mark per square foot. Now, Mr.Chairman, if we go back to when this present government or members of it were in Opposition, they took a stand, a stand which is pretty relevant, Mr.

Chairman, to this $10 million in this subhead we are talking about right now. The stand in 1970, four years ago, the stand of the present Minister of Justice, who then sat in Opposition, the stand of the present Minister of Fisheries, who is also now the Government House Leader, who then sat in epposition, the stand as recorded here of the present Minister of Finance, who then sat in Opposition, the stand of those people, and I presume that t hese three were supported in their stand by the present Minister of Education, who was then in Opposition, by the present Member for St.

John's East, who was then in Opposition, by the present Minister of Social Services, who was then in Opposition, all men who now are part of the decision making process of government, with the exception of the Member for St. John's East, who was part of the process until quite lately and we know what happened to him, the others, Mr. Chairman, are part of the decision making process of government, a government which says today that the most we can put into school construction is $10 million, those same people, four short years ago, Mr. Chairman, four short years ago - MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible). MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Cµairman, I realize the contribution of the Hon. Minister of Social Services is somewhat limited but must he insist on whistling in the House when I am trying to make a point? The stand, Mr. Chairman, MR. MURPHY: Whistling in the dark. "l 6 ·-.l. I ti

March 20, 1975 Tape no. 529 Page 2 MR. SIMMONS: You are whistling in the dark. The minister is whistling in the dark, Mr. Chairman. How dark he does not realize because his eyes are not open. MR. MURPHY: MR. SIMMONS: MR. MURPHY: MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, four short years ago, - (Inaudible). Thank you. Thank you. (Inaudible). I must say he - no, I will not say it. It is so near Sunday and I am trying to be charitable. Mr. Chairman, four short years ago these same people, in Opposition,made such statements as these, Mr.

Chairman, which you must agree, if you do not anticipate me, Sir, are very, very relevant to the subheag we are taiking about right now. The spokesman for them, with a lot of interjections from the other members that I have just mentioned, fellows saying, a man, a man, so on and so forth, all the way through, but the spokesman is the ~he present Minister of Justice, then sitting over here in Opposition. I would just rather read the whole thing, Mr. Chairman. It was quite a long speech, but I think the crux of it is right here, Mr.

Chairman, and I am reading from the verbatim report of May 4, 1970, actually almost five years ago. The Minister of Justice says, the case for an immediate quadrulping, an immediate quadrupiling of expenditures on capital expenditures is watertight. He goes on to say, to hold the budgeted amount to the present $4 million would be criminal. It was then $4 million, Mr. Chairman. This government or the other government, I think, put it up to $8 million and this government has managed to get it up to $10 million. At that time in 1970, Mr.

Chairman, the }linister of Justice, as he is now, and will be I suppose until the next election, not after that for sure - he would like to be a judge, Mr. Chairman, but people got the idea - MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr, Dunph y): Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: - for that too. 1671

March 20, 1975 Tape no. s2·9 Page 3 - mw NR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunphy): The honourable gentleman is not being relevant to the topic at hand at all. In reference to the Hon. }!ember for Fortune is something else. AN RON. MEMBER: Burin . MR. CHAIR.'1AN (Mr. Dunphy) : Burin. I suggest that the Ron. 'Member for Hermitage will be relevant to the topic at hand, which is building and equipping schools. MR. SIMMONS: The honourable Chairman is quite right, and 1678

March 2!t, 1975 Tape No. 530 NM - 1 I certainly realize that in one moment there I did make a sentence about the minister wanting to be judge and so on, that was a little off the statement. I get so used, Mr. Chairman, to people making cracks from the other side and I get the feeling we can get away with it too. But anyway, Mr. Chairman, to the subject and very relevant, very, very, very relevant, Mr. Chairman, very relevant, 1970, May 4th., the present Minister of Justice who was then in Opposition said that the case for quadrupling the amount was water­ tight.

He held out a case for $16 million in 1970, $16 million in 1970, he figured it was a watertight proposal at that particular time. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am pretty happy that he took that position in 1970, at that time I was involved directly in the school system and I was anxious to see the amounts of money for school construction increased. Indeed I was so anxious to see these amounts increased, where we could get enough money to build the schools that needed to be built, that I wrote an

article on it, Mr. Chairman, an

article in which I said something the same kind of thin~ the minister was saying when he was in Opposition, where I laid out the case in black and white and had it published as an editorial in a teachers' magazine, laid it out in black and white about how much money I felt we needed at that time. Indeed the Minister of Justice who was then in Opposition, felt it was such a good idea, such a good

article that I had written, that he stood up and read it word for word in this House, Mr. Chairman, and it was that

article I was just quoting from then, which he had read because he felt at that time that we needed in 1970 at least $16 million. Now here we are five years later with that member, that member in the Cabinet, the Minister of Finance who supported him on that oecasion in the Cabinet, the Minister of Fisheries who supported him on that occasion in the Cabinet, the Minister of Social Se-rvices and the

March 20, 1975 Tape No. 530 NM - 2 Minister of Education, five of them at least, Mr, Chairman, come to mind. Why now, Mr, Chairman, in 1975 are they unable to persuade Cabinet to put the kind of money in the Budget under this subhead that is needed if we are ever going to catch up in this Province even in terms of school facilities? Why, Mr. Chairman, is their tune so changed five years later? When they were in Opposition they were going to solve all the problems that they could. They were going to change the world overnight.

They were going to put all kinds of money wherever you wanted it, just at the flick of a finger they were going to do it, They were going to have $16 million back in 1970, And now five years later, they got her up to a measly $10 million, at a time when the school boards say they would need close to $200 million, $200 aillion I am told to just replace those that are no longer functional or safe, replace schools that are presently firetraps, that are otherwise inadequate and provide the new and additional schools we need.

They tell me that in round figures they are going to need $200 million. _What is the figure the government is - MR. ROWE: $264 if you are going to count the debt. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, the figure I have mentioned of $200 million of course, Mr. Chairman, does not take into account servicing or retiring the debt, the capital debt these co111111ittees and boards have built up. Where the boards need $200 million and I am talking in round figures, Mr .

Chairman, it is $170 million or $180 million, depending on whose figures you use, but where the boards say they need in round figures $200 million, almost immediately, well they could not spend it all in one year obviously, they could not find enough contractors or architects to do the work, but certainly in the next two, three, four years they could spend that amount of money. Where they need in round figures $200 million over the next couple of years to meet their immediate present needs, the government is going to give them $135 million over the next eleven years. 1sco

March 20, 1975. Tape 531 RH - 1 Now, before we get through this

schedule of payment to the committees they will be even that much further behind. Mr. Chairman, I could not let the subhead pass without just addressing to this one because I find this subhead here particularly disappointing and I would have hoped that the minister would have been able to persuade his colleagues in Cabinet to put some more money in there. The Minister of Fisheries the other night waxed long and eloquent about what a persuasive fellow the Minister of Education was in Cabinet and how he was forever after the Premier to get more money for education. Hell, Hr.

Chairman, I have difficulty believing the ~!inister of Fisheries on that because the evidence here, particularly insofar as school construction is concerned certainly contradictswhat the ltl.nister of Fisheries said. The evidence here suggests very clearly to me that the Minister of Education must be about the worst bargainer that is in the Cabinet. If he cannot do any better than this, Y.r. Chairman , for his o~m department and for the needs of education insofar as school construction is concerned, then perhaps we need somebody else as Minister of Education who can put the case more effectively.

I uould call upon the minister to correct the mis­ impression that the Minister of Fisheries left the other night and tell us, at least for his o,m sake, tell us that he did not persuade too hard, that he perhaps was out the day the Cabinet was making its decisions on education 1 give us some excuse to get himself off the hook. I cannot think for one minute, Mr. Chairman, that the minister with his known abilities for persuasion, did his best at the time this came before Cabinet. If he did, I would sincerely, I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the amount here would not be ten. It would be more like eighteen 1681

March 20, 1975. Tape 531 RH - 2 or twenty, more like the kind of figure that would, at least, get the D.E.c!s off to some kind of a start, help them to begin to come to grips. All they are going to do with that amount, Mr. Chairman, is, well, I was going to say stand still, I suppose they will stand still. They will take care of the commitments they have at the moment to school boards, but I am told, Mr. Chairman, that with that $10 million the boards will not be able to undertake any new construction beyond that which has committed at the present time.

I say that is very sad1 and I say this government could and should do a lot better than that. MR. ROWE: Absolutely right. MR. O'ITENHEIBER: Mr. Chairman, I thought for a mo~ent I was in a time machine back to Tuesday, but knowing that honourable gentlemen opposite are not prone to repetition, I was not sure whether I was right or not, but I do believe that we did listen to these points of view previously and certainly it is not my intention to bore honourable members by repeating what I said. I intend to reply very briefly. I would hope that Mr.

Oates, I noticed is the gentleman who looks after the tape machine and I was wondering if we had unanimous consent of the House to instruct him to make a long playing record of honourable gentleman's, especially the speech on school truces, so that the honourable gentleman would then be able to distribute that - MR. ROWE: On a point of order! MR. SIMMONS: New rules now, new rules. MR. OTTENHEIMER: What is the point of order? What is the point of order? MR. SIMMONS: The point of order is use the rules for both sides. That is the point of order. MR. ROWE: Now, I was brought to order on a nwuber of occasions, 1682

March 20, 1975. Tape 531 llr. Chairman, on the grounds of being irrelevant and I would submit that the minister is far from being relevant at the present time and that he be brought to order. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, on that point of order. I certainly withdraw it and will ask Mr. Oates not to make a long playing record of the gentleman's speech on school taxes, so that then he will not be able to send it out to his friends and we can hear it again in the House. So, please do not, please do not make a long playing record of that. Does that dispose of the point of order, Sir? I have retracted.

I presume that disposes of the matter. Thank you. MR. SD-IMONS: Stop playing with the Chairman, boy. Stop playing with the Chairman. tfil. OTTENHEIMER: Now, now, now, now: Must have hit a sensitive note! MR. ROWE: Inaudible. }fil.

OTTENHEIMER: Now, I would hope, now, that honourable RR - 3 gentlemen in the press and I presume - see if this is in order - will give very full coverage to the honourable gentleman's speech on school taxes and crown corporations because I believe he is perhaps dissatisfied with points made two or three hours a couple of days ago about school taxes and crown corporations that we would plead with honourable gentlemen to put it on the first page - MF. ROWE: ----·-- Thank you. MR. OTTENHEIMER: And to have a supplement too.

Have it in red to do whatever is required so that honourable gentlemen will know they have had good coverage on it and we will be able to - MR. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. Now, look, if we are going to have rules in this Rouse, they have got to apply 168J

tfarch 20, 1975 . Tape 531 RH - 4 MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! ~IR. RO~'E: to both sides fairly. MR. SIMMONS: They do not, though. MR. ROWE: I tried to l!lake a number of points this afternoon , exactly the same points as the Minister of Fishe r ies, and I was ruled out of order on the ground s of irrelevancy. The minister has not been relevant since he spoke, since he stood up 1684 •·

March 20, 1975 Tape No. 532 NM - 1 MR. ROWE: and we have asked a number of questions and we expect answers to them, not making a joke out of this committee, Sir. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Well, Mr. Chairman, I withdraw. I did not know that the honourable gentleman was so sensitive. I withdraw and I would certainly not request the press to do any such thing. Now, Mr. Speaker, MR. SIMMONS: Playing with you "Alec" boy, playing with you. MR. ROWE: What a joke. House of clowns. MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Order, please! The honourable gentleman will be heard in silence. · MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Sir. Mr.

Chairman, I intend to be quite brief• To the best of my knowledge all of the points made by honourable gentlemen opposite were made previously. I gave the government's reply, other members of the government also made their contribution and whether to honourable gentlemen's satisfaction, obviously that is a different matter. I do not expect necessarily that they are going to accept everything I say nor do they expect that they are going to accept everything that I say or vice versa, however.

So very briefly, with respect, and it was stated that it is now government policy that there be no additional DREE schools, in the day school system that DREE not participate. Mr, Chairman, this is a federal-provincial programme, the federal government has made it quite clear that they no not intend to have further DREE agreements in the regular day school construction programme. They have made that very clear. I have stated it now. I am quite sure I said it before. I could take a half hour to say it but it is as clear as that, and that is it, full stop.

Now with respect to school taxes, I certainly do not intend to regurgitate what I said on Tuesday night. It would take a couple or so pages of Hansard. I related it to the development of municipal government here and all numbers of things and I have no intention, it was just less tl,an forty-eight hours ago when this position was put forward, it will be appearing in Hansard and I have no intention of going through that again. Now there were a couple of specific points, on 1685

March 20, 1975 Tape No, 532 NM - 2 specific information, which I am always glad to give, if I have it I will give it, if I do not I will undertake to get it as quickly as I can. One was, I think I am correct here, one was asking for the general breakdown with respect to the distribution of this $10 million, in other words the distribution of the population with respect to denominations. That is roughly for the Integrated, DEC and the denominations making that up. It comes to approximately fifty-eight per centinte~rated.

This is the total breakdown for this capital vote, with respect to the percentages and the population. Integrated, fifty-eight; Roman Catholic, thirty-six; Pentecostal, five~point-five; and Seventh Day Adventist, one per cent; and under the category otners. Now the other question was, with leave of the House I will give the answer now, it is really two votes avayiand that is the breadown of the equalization under DREE, so with leave of the House I will give it now.

That is under 03-06 - Equalization grant in lieu of DREE and that breaks down approximately for this year, this is $16 million made available over five years, of which this is the first year. It breaks down this year to Integrated- $2.3 million; Pentecostal - $350,000; and Seventh Day Adventist - $7,000; that again is, it is rough but it is certainly very, very approximate. It may not be exactly to the dollar or to the hundred. This has been agreed to by all denominations, this equalization - MR. HICKMAN: With enthusiasm. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: - formula, both with respect to the amount, the means of getting at the amount and the time period over which it is to be paid. Now just, there is really just one other matter I am going to comment on and that is again the suggestion of the crown corporation and long term financing and this related to the request of the D.E.C's. put in, I believe, in 1973 where they asked for $132 million from that period up to 1980. 168b

March 20, 1975 Tape No. 532 NM - 3 Nov actually under the ten year programme of the government, and with the additional $25 million added in the c011111U.ttment this year , the total is $145 million over the ten year period in which $10 million was apent last year. So there is a remaining $135 mil lion from this year on. 168·;

March 20, 1975 Tape 533 IB-1 Now, a certain amount was made that it could appear deceptive or be wrong, the way the Budget Speech put this, but there is no way that I can see that whatsoever. I think it puts it very succinctly. I am going to read it. It is not that long a paragraph. I think it is on page thirteen of this document. lt is the Newfoundland and Labrador Budget before you get to the estimates. It is school construction. It is relevant. I am 1ust going to read it.

It is very clear. ' 1The 1975-1976 estimates provide an amount of ~21,588,nno I/ for school construction by the various school boards across the province. Now, this is a point I made in my opening remarks, that the amount for school construction for building schools comes under four subheads, and you add the four of them up. This one is $10 million. The others have $11.5 million between them, but the total js $21.5 million.

Of this amount, $8. 8 million is for the completion of school construction under the DREE programme, and ~2.7 million is for grants to the three denominations as part of a $16 million five year programme to equalize the DREE grants given during the perior 1070, 1g74_ Now, a further $10 million, that is what we are discussing now. It is to cover the ongoing commitment of government to denominational authorities whereby grants are made available to allow school boards to borrow their financing requirements. Last year's programme was increased by $80 million for the ten year period, 1975 to 1985.

It is government's intention to add a further $25 million to last year's commitment as an interim measure to assessing all aspects of school construction. Immediately when you turn over the page,the method by which government intends to extend the present guaranteed grants is outlined in table seven. You look at table seven and it could not be clearer that an additional of $25 million is shown down there in the third column from the left. It shows that the fi.rst million comes in 1977, 1978 and it continues on until late 1984 and 1985. I am saying that that is put as straight forward as one can put it.

Just a final remark with respect to the long term financing. I mean, it is stated in the budget itself, and it is government's intention to add a further $25 million to last year's commitment as an interim measure to assessing all aspects of school construction. As 1688

J-larch 2n, 1()75 Tape 533 a matter of fact, we TP.ceived very recently, within the past ten days, a new submission from the n.E.C. 's with respect to school construction and what they regard as their needs. The total, that amounts there totals $125 million. I think that is the amount, $125 million. $125 million - naturally the last one submitted was in 1973 and perhaps based on the information of 1972, and a fair number of schools have been built since then. That is the amount, Sl25 million over the next five or five plus a few year period.

Nobody doubts at all the financial difficulty of school IB-2 hoards or municipalities or of provincial governments or of hospital boards or of practically any and all necessary and important agencies. The fact is, Mr. Chairman, that this year we are, the government, will be required to raise $203 million, will be required to borrow $2n3 million. If we were to do as the honourable gentlemen opposite suggest, that is establish a crown corporation which could borrow on the government's guarantee, then we would have the corporation competing with the government.

If, as our financial advisors tell us, and as the J-linister of Finance on behalf of the government states, and if as the government collectively states, that $203 million is the amount that we can and should properly borrow and that this can be done without jeopardy to our financial position, then the conversP. is obviously true, that anything in excess of that amount, would jeopardize the province's financial position, It is really as stark as that. It is really as simple as that.

All of the data and infonration and analysis that must go into arriving at that judgement, no doubt is very complex, but the final 168~

March 20, 1975. Tape 534 RH - 1 statement of the government's judgment and fiscal policy is quite stark and quite simple and that is that that amount of $203 million is the amount that we can properly borrow with­ out jeopardizing the future development of the Province and jeopardizing the financial confidence and credibility and ability to pay the whole f:lnancial situation of the Province. The final result of it all is as simple and as stark as that and to set up a crown corporation competing in the same market with the same money does not solve anything.

If you are going to raise $40 million or $50 million through that, then that is $40 million or $50 million you raise here. So, you do not solve anything that way when the financial situation is such.

If the financial situation were not such, then honourable gentlemen's arguments may well have been incor­ porated in the Budget itself, but the financial situation is something that honourable gentlemen opposite, nor I, can offer through aspirations and expressions of good hope or expressions of impending doom that, you know, school boards and everybody else is going up the sprout or this is happening and that is happening.

The financial facts are such and the amount voted under capital adds up, as I said, to the twenty-one point whatever it is million and this particular portion of that that we are voting on here is $10 million and I would move that it be approved. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, - MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Well, I heard the honourable gentleman to my right first, although - MR. SIMMONS: I will yield. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I just want to get up to make a normal, customary motion. I think at this stage of the time, that the question now be put. There are seventy-five hours of estimates.

I am anxious, very anxious as a private member to .16::iO

March 20, 1975. Tape 534 RH - 2 hear the estimates of every department and seventy-five hours is quite ample time for it, the estimates of every department considered by this committee. It would appear by the way that the Opposition is going that we are going to get into the same boat as last year and just get two or three departments heard. I appeal to my friends on the opposite side, they have made their points on Tuesday, they have made it today on this. As I say, in the interests of, as I very much wish to see, all of the departments and all of the ministers' estimates be considered.

As a member of the committee, I just appeal to them to be a little bit less repititious and consequently, I make the motion that the question be put. MR. SIMMONS: ( First

part inaudible) - fact, I yield to the member. Could I just make the observation which ~-ould have had the same result as the member's motion. I am simply going to say, ?{r. Chairman, that what the minister has just gone through, the Minister of Education in the last few minutes, is a clear indication of how we are indeed. I agree perhaps not for the reason that the Member for St. John's East has suggested, but I certainly agree we are wasting our time here.

We are wasting it as was demonstrated by the minister just a moment ago, that after putting some fairly legitilllate questions to him, we got a long tirade from him about how we should give speeches and then he proceeded to regurgitate everything he had said the other night. So, in the light of that, Mr. Chainnan, you can call - AN HONOURABLE MIDIBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, in the light of that it is obvious we are not going to get any answers, so you can call the question on this head and you can call them on any other heads you want to, as far as I am concerned, because it is 16~1

March 20, 1975. Tape 534 RH - 3 pointless standing here asking questions if we are going to get that kind of regurgitation every time from the minister. MR. ROBERTS: To a point of order, Mr. Chairman. I under- stand the gentleman from St. John's East - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. 11R. ROBERTS: Not necessarily, but I move that the question be now put. I would raise a point of order. I am not sure that motion is appropriate in committee. I think it is appropriate in the whole House when the House is meeting as a House, but in Connnittee of the Whole, I am not sure it is in order.

I have not got a Beauchesne reference but perhaps if Your Honour would either - Your Honour may wish to make a decision now or Your Honour might prefer to let the matter stand for a couple of minutes while we have a look at the authorities, but I am pretty sure it is not permissible in committee. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, on that point of order. I think everybody realizes the rules of the House, Supply and Committee, so the same rules apply.

But all I wanted to do for the sake of peace, order, and good government, before I go out of my mind, is make the point that we are sitting here in the House listening to repitition after repetition when we could be validly using the time allotted, And if the Opposition were allotting its time properly and acting as an Opposition should, instead of showing that they are just as incapable in Opposition as they would be in government, we would be considering it. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

MARSHALL: So, I think the point is made and I would hope the question would be put and I would hope that the connnittee will be able to serve its purpose and be able to consider all of the estimates which is what was intended when you brought the estimates before the House. MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Order, please! Order, please! 1692

March 20, 1975 Tape 535 (Afternoon) HR. CHAIRMAN: 1 believe the honourable member's point is a debating point rather than a point of order. I refer to Standing Order 41 "A motion for the previous question is not admitted in PK - 1 a Committee of the Whole or any Select Committee of the House. " I believe also that it is rather difficult to rule on this matter because we are in Committee of the Whole in which we have seventy-five hours. Now I suppose if honourable members are relevant they could spend all seventy-five hours on a subl1ead.

However, there are also rules with regards to relevancy which have on occasion been invoked. I am not prepared at this time to entertain the honourable member's moticn althought I think he has made his point. Shall 605-03-05 carry? On motion 605-03-05 carried. On moti~n 605-04 through 606-02-03 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 607-01 carry? tm.. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Chairman, 607-01 - I would like to indicate to the Committee the general work under that subhead that refers to the consultants in the Department of Education, employees, officials, professional people in the Department of Education who are available to various school boards throughout the province.

We have them in areas of music, industrial arts, arts, social studies, science, math 1 starting last Seotember metric conversion, of course, a quite important area due to the national policy of converting to metrics 1 English native education, also an appointment effective last September, French consultants, physical ed, and we have vacancies, and they are advertising for person in reading and in library science. That is what the general heading refers to. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 607-01 carry? On motion 607-01 carried. On motion 607-02-01 through 607-02-03 carried. HR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 607-02-04 carried. MR.

OTTENHE !MER: 04 , Mr. Chairman, al though not a large vote, is something which I think would be of some information here which would be of interest to honourable gentlemen. This area of curriculum 169J

March 20, 1975 Tape 535 (Afternoon.) PK - 2 development is - much of it for workshops whereby these professional people and others in the deportment go out to various parts of the communities and have seminars and workshops with teachers, and also for a number of pilot projects. There are three her e which, per haps , four which would be of interest to honourable members; one in Red Bay, Labrador, which is a pilot project, a curriculum pilot project in the physical education area.

And what we are endeavouring to find out and development is a kind of programme in physical education which would be particularly relevant and accessible in rural areas, and for small schools, and in communities where perhaps there is no gymnasium, and the recreation or athletic facilities that would exist in other areas would not in fact be - and it is geared around outdoor games and spores - and it is hoped that what develops from this project would be of interest and applicable to smaller rural schools throughout the province . 1694

March 20, 1975 Tape 536 IB-1 There was another kind of pilot project in the Port au Port area to study the kinds of adaptation of programmes to the needs of small schools as well. What we endeavor to do in this area 1.s particularly to concentrate on the smaller schools and on the rural schools. In Mobile on the Southern Shore there is a pilot project with respect to the individualization of french instructjon.

Basically what we endeavor to do here,and indeed in the deployment of professional people in general in the Department of Educa.tion, to make them the priority on their travel, on their accessability on their time as for the smaller rural schools. On motion 04 and OS carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 06 carried? ~- O'ITENHEIMER: 'Mr. Chairman, since you are in the Chair, I am sure you would wish me to say a few words upon this. Actually this, the high school drama festival, this started last year as a twenty-fifth anniversary project. It is one which is continuing on a regular basis.

We had the first one last year at Grand Falls. The second one this year is going to be at Stephenville in the district of Port au Port. I trust I am being relevant Mr. Chairman. The Chair will not mind if I give a few details. It is in early April. Approximately fifty schools have been involved in the various regional playoffs, and there are eleven taking

part in the finals. I think it is a very worth-while development. I was pleased to have attended last year's. I arn hoping to be able to attend at least some of this years. But it is something of value for our schools and for the people in them. On motion r6 and 03-01 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Sha.Jl '12 carried? MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, this is 02, 03-02? MR. CHAIRMAN: 03-02, yes. MR. F. ROWE: Film Acquisition and nelivery - could the minister just indicate what all that is about? I am not asking for an itemized list, hut is it tied in in any way with any other departments or any other agency or is it purely for the