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September 15, 2010

39th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2010-Sep-15 (PDF)

L043 - Wed 15 Sep 2010 / Mer 15 sep 2010

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Wednesday 15 September 2010 Mercredi 15 septembre 2010

ORDERS OF THE DAY

CHILDREN’S ACTIVITY

TAX CREDIT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR LE CRÉDIT D’IMPÔT

POUR LES ACTIVITÉS DES ENFANTS

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

DECORUM IN CHAMBER

ORAL QUESTIONS

SMART METERS

SMART METERS

HYDRO RATES

HYDRO RATES

HYDRO RATES

PENSION PLANS

NORTHERN ONTARIO DEVELOPMENT

RESEARCH AND INNOVATION

NORTHERN ONTARIO DEVELOPMENT

MANUFACTURING JOBS

WATER QUALITY

PENSION PLANS

SOCIAL ASSISTANCE

RURAL INFRASTRUCTURE

HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION

CORRECTION OF RECORD

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

LONG-TERM CARE

ROYAL CANADIAN NAVY

GORD HUNTER

SHANE WAKEFORD

EASTERN ONTARIO DEVELOPMENT

BUILDING PERMITS

PUBLIC TRANSIT

FULL-DAY KINDERGARTEN

EDUCATION

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE

ON THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

NARCOTICS SAFETY

AND AWARENESS ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR LA SÉCURITÉ

ET LA SENSIBILISATION

EN MATIÈRE DE STUPÉFIANTS

ARTHUR WISHART AMENDMENT ACT

(FRANCHISE DISCLOSURE), 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 MODIFIANT

LA LOI ARTHUR WISHART

SUR LA DIVULGATION

RELATIVE AUX FRANCHISES

BIG BAY RESORT

ASSOCIATION ACT, 2010

JACK JOHNSON

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ PUBLIC BUSINESS

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AND RESPONSES

PRESCRIPTION DRUG ABUSE

PETITIONS

TAXATION

PENSION PLANS

SERVICES FOR THE

DEVELOPMENTALLY DISABLED

NORTHERN ONTARIO DEVELOPMENT

PENSION PLANS

ONTARIO SOCIETY

FOR THE PREVENTION OF CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

NORTHERN ONTARIO DEVELOPMENT

KIDNEY DISEASE

HOSPITAL FUNDING

NORTHERN ONTARIO DEVELOPMENT

RECYCLING

ORDERS OF THE DAY

OPEN FOR BUSINESS ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 FAVORISANT UN ONTARIO

PROPICE AUX AFFAIRES

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Good morning. Please remain standing for the Lord’s Prayer, followed by the Baha’i prayer.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

CHILDREN’S ACTIVITY

TAX CREDIT ACT, 2010 /

LOI DE 2010 SUR LE CRÉDIT D’IMPÔT

POUR LES ACTIVITÉS DES ENFANTS

Ms. Smith, on behalf of Mr. Duncan, moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 99,

An Act to amend the Taxation Act, 2007 to implement the children’s activity tax credit / Projet de loi 99, Loi modifiant la Loi de 2007 sur les impôts pour mettre en oeuvre le crédit d’impôt pour les activités des enfants.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Debate?

Hon. Monique M. Smith: I’ll be sharing my time with the member from Kitchener–Conestoga.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from Kitchener–Conestoga.

Applause.

Ms. Leeanna Pendergast: Thank you to my colleagues. I’m very excited this morning to be here in the House for second reading of the Children’s Activity Tax Credit Act, 2010. This proposed act contains amendments to the Taxation Act, 2007, to implement a new, permanent and refundable tax credit for Ontario families.

The McGuinty government remains committed to enhancing existing services and introducing new and innovative initiatives to create measurable improvements in people’s lives right here in Ontario. Of particular focus for our government has been improving opportunities for Ontario’s children and Ontario’s youth. I’m pleased to stand here to highlight a few of our accomplishments over the past seven years.

In 2009-10, we significantly reduced class sizes; I say that with ultimate pride as an educator and as a parent. All primary classes in Ontario have 23 or fewer students, and 90.5% of these classes have 20 or fewer students.

In 2009-10, 68% of grade 3 and grade 6 students met or exceeded the provincial standards in reading, writing and math. This is a 14% increase since 2002-03.

In 2008-09, 79% of students in Ontario graduated with a high school diploma. This means that more than 52,500 additional students have graduated from high school since 2003-04.

But we also know that learning takes place outside the classroom. A 2008 study conducted by Statistics Canada concluded: “Children’s participation in organized extracurricular activities has been associated with positive short- and long-term outcomes, such as academic achievement and pro-social behaviours, and with reduced negative outcomes, such as dropping out of school and emotional and behavioural disorders.”

This is why the McGuinty government is proposing a new, permanent and refundable tax credit that would help ensure a healthy and active lifestyle for our young people. It makes it a little easier for parents to get their children involved in sports, arts and other activities. We know that that is absolutely crucial and so important to their development.

Under our proposed tax credit, parents would be able to claim up to $500 of eligible expenses per child. They would receive a refundable tax credit worth up to $50 per child and $100 per child with a disability.

The 2008 Statistics Canada study also concluded that children from lower income homes were less likely to participate in extracurricular activities. Unlike the federal government’s children’s fitness tax credit and similar other tax credits in provinces, our tax credit would be fully refundable. This means that low-income parents who pay little or no income tax will also benefit. Also unique to our tax credit, the maximum amount of tax credit would be indexed for 2011 and subsequent years under

section 23 to ensure that the tax credit, of course, keeps pace with inflation.

Furthermore, our proposed tax credit covers a wide, wide scope of activities, far more comprehensive than the federal children’s fitness tax credit. The Ontario tax credit would cover activities that fall into two categories, fitness and non-fitness—this is quite significant. I will go through the two categories.

All eligible activities would be supervised and suitable for children—again, fitness activities and non-fitness activities, which is absolutely crucial to parents such as myself who have three boys in soccer and rowing, who need to be involved in those fitness activities, and then, of course, non-fitness activities for those like myself; I was part of the debating club and public speaking. This will also benefit non-fitness activities.

The criteria for fitness activities would be the same as for the federal children’s fitness tax credit. The activities would require a significant amount of physical activity that contributes to cardio-respiratory endurance plus one or more of muscular strength, muscular endurance, flexibility and balance.

For non-fitness activities to be eligible, they would have to fall under one of the following categories. I’m going to go through the categories, as this is so exciting for the non-fitness side of this tax credit: instruction in music, dramatic arts, dance and visual arts; language instruction; activities with a substantial focus on wilderness and the natural environment; activities with a substantial focus on helping children develop and use their intellectual skills; structured interaction among children where a supervisor teaches or helps children develop interpersonal skills so important to their existence in society today; or enrichment or tutoring in academic subjects.

For both fitness and non-fitness activities, programs would qualify as eligible programs if they conform to one of the following guidelines. I’ll just go through the guidelines:

—a weekly program, not part of a school’s curriculum, of a duration of eight or more consecutive weeks, in which all or substantially all the activities include a significant amount of qualifying activity;

—a program that is not part of a school’s curriculum, of a duration of five or more consecutive days, of which more than 50% of the daily activity includes a significant amount of qualifying activity;

—a program that is not part of a school’s curriculum, of a duration of eight or more consecutive weeks, offered to children by a club, association or any similar organization, in circumstances where the participants in the program may select a variety of activities, if more than 50% of the activities offered to children by the organization include a significant amount of qualifying activity, or more than 50% of the time scheduled for the activities offered to children in the program is scheduled with activities that include a significant amount of qualifying activity; and

—a membership in an organization that, again, is not part of a school’s curriculum, of a duration of eight or more consecutive weeks, if more than 50% of the activity offered to children by the organization includes a significant amount of the qualifying activity.

If certain programs or memberships of a duration of eight or more consecutive weeks fail to qualify because 50% or fewer of the activities that are offered to children are eligible activities, then a proportional amount of the fees paid for that program or membership could qualify for the credit as well.

This tax credit would build on the significant measures we’ve already taken to support children’s activities. Some of these significant steps include the after-school initiative, which I’m personally familiar with. This initiative provides youth in high-risk communities with after school programming. Programs in this particular initiative include healthy eating and nutrition education, which of course is always helpful in working to combat childhood obesity; physical activity to encourage active lifestyle; personal health and wellness education, of course to promote self-esteem in our youth; and other activities with specific priorities that are based on local community needs.

There has been $4.5 million since 2006 under the Ontario international amateur sport hosting policy in a number of events, including the 2007 FIFA under-20 World Cup of soccer, the 2009 World Junior Hockey Championship, the 2009 World Wushu Championships and the 2010 International University Sports Federation’s world university cross-country championship.

This is so important to our youth. From a personal perspective, our boys were at the 2007 FIFA under-20 soccer championships, and the way that these events affect their lives and create their encouragement, their interest and their desire to be a part of physical activity is absolutely immeasurable. So these are great steps that our government is taking.

The healthy communities fund is a one-window approach to funding local organizations for the delivery of health promotion initiatives. These would be initiatives that are related to physical activity, recreation, sport, healthy eating, injury prevention, substance and alcohol misuse and, of course, mental health. The healthy communities fund has provided an estimated $21.9 million to 369 organizations across Ontario to deliver innovative health promotion programs. An educated and a healthy population, as we all know, is critical to the prosperity of Ontario. Our government believes in starting this lifelong process as early as we possibly can.

In addition to announcing the proposed new children’s activity tax credit this month, September also marks the initial phase of implementing to make full-day learning available for four- and five-year-olds across the province of Ontario. Full-day kindergarten provides children with the foundation, the base, that they need for learning for a lifetime. It supports student achievement. It builds on the success that we’ve already achieved, as I earlier mentioned, in the lower primary class sizes and of course in the increase in the graduation rates. It’s also a positive step towards supporting our province and the people of Ontario for the long term.

In the report Ontario in the Creative Age, Roger Martin and Richard Florida recommend: “Make early childhood development a high priority.” This is the highest-payoff investment we can make in our long-run prosperity.

Nearly 600 Ontario schools currently offer full-day kindergarten, and it will be offered in more than 800 schools in September 2011. Our government’s goal is to have full-day kindergarten fully implemented in all Ontario elementary schools by 2015-16. This will employ up to an additional 3,800 teachers and 20,000 early childhood educators, and will benefit about 247,000 children in Ontario. This initiative will help to ensure that working parents continue to have access to quality child care and play an active, active role in the workforce.

Earlier this year, our government announced that it’s stepping in to permanently fill the gap left by the federal government with an investment of $63.5 million a year to preserve 8,500 child care spaces, and this is just another example of the investments that our government is making to support the very foundation of our Open Ontario plan—and, of course, that’s Ontario’s people.

The McGuinty government remains committed to our Open Ontario plan, which we introduced last March. The Open Ontario plan lays the foundation of our government’s strategy to position the province for new opportunities, new jobs and, of course, new economic growth. It’s about reassessing how Ontario does business and how Ontario can best prepare for the times ahead. It’s about maximizing existing resources, consisting of people, programs and processes, to the best that they can be as the economic recovery takes hold. It’s about strengthening our province now as well as in the future.

Ontario’s children, as we know, are Ontario’s future. I always say that Ontario’s future walks through the doors of our schools every day. An important part of our Open Ontario plan is about helping kids reach their full potential. With the proposed new tax credit, our government would be putting more money back into the pockets of moms and dads to help them provide their children with the kinds of activities that interest them the most.

We’ve gone through all the activities; we know that it covers a wide range of interests, and now moms and dads are going to have the opportunity to support their children with those interests. It’s the right thing to do for our kids, it’s the right thing to do for our economy and it’s the right thing to do for our communities. By helping to develop skills, fitness and, of course, the interests of children and youth of today, the government, as we said, is supporting a better future for all of us in Ontario.

In conclusion, the children’s activity tax credit would provide about $75 million each year to assist with the cost of enrolling children in extracurricular activities and would benefit over 1.8 million children in about 1.1 million Ontario families. Parents want to make sure their children have the opportunities that they need to grow up strong and secure, and to become happy, caring and productive citizens of Ontario’s society. We need our students as well as our youth to become engaged citizens, to become part of Ontario’s future.

Our proposed new tax credit would make it just a little easier for parents to provide their children with these opportunities. That’s why I ask for the support of the House in passing this act to help Ontario families and Ontario parents, and to make it just that much easier to support their children to take these activities and to be involved in fitness and non-fitness activities, because it’s the right thing to do.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Questions and comments? The member for York–Simcoe.

Mrs. Julia Munro: I’ll defer to John O’Toole.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Just one second. Can it be deferred to a—?

Interjection.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Okay. The member for Durham.

Mr. John O’Toole: I just want to respond to the member from Kitchener–Conestoga and comment. First of all, we recognize the importance of making sure that all children have the opportunity to pursue extracurricular activities, and I think it is a very good sort of signal or recognition of the good work that the federal government of Stephen Harper is doing with his tax credit. I think that imitation is probably the finest form of flattery.

But the point here is, I’m a little concerned. First of all, if you look at it, it’s a very small, innocuous little bill. In the bill, it’s very specific that, first of all, you have to spend $500. So families that are registering their children for hockey—let’s go through that for a moment, in the little time I have. The $500, it would never be exactly $500; it could be $550 or $600, and then there’d be tax on that. That’s 13% tax on this. Let’s just do the simple math. If it’s $500 and it’s 10%, that’s $50 tax; it’s actually more than that. We’re concerned about this as an action of the provincial government. For them to issue a cheque for $50, it would probably cost $50.

Interjection.

Mr. John O’Toole: Twenty-five dollars. Well, I think there is going to be a direct cheque because with the last cheque they got for the HST implementation, the cheque came out and had a nice letter from Premier McGuinty, sort of patting himself on the back. So this is another government opportunity to get into the mailbox, and you are paying for it. You, the consumer, are actually paying for it. It’s your own money coming back to you. It’s an admission that the HST is a tax grab, and so—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Thank you. The member for Hamilton East–Stoney Creek.

Mr. Paul Miller: I’d just like to say that this tax credit—any help for families is good. Unfortunately, the $50, let’s take a look at that: If I had a boy in hockey or a girl in hockey, that might pay for 10 skate sharpenings. And then I’ve got to pay HST on top of that so I’ll be lucky if I get five skate sharpenings. Some of the places it costs $180 just to register—just to register. Even baseball, you’ve got to pay for your uniform; you’ve got to pay for the registry.

This is a joke. This money will do absolutely nothing to help families.

Let’s talk about piano lessons: average $60 an hour; $60 an hour, and you might go twice a week, maybe once a week to piano lessons. Wow: $50. If you break that down over a year, it works out to be about 29 cents.

Every time the Liberals do something it’s half done or a quarter done, and they put us in a position where we don’t want to go against people getting money, but they fall short every time. They don’t make it to second base, let alone home plate. This is absolutely a joke. It’s peanuts. And they are going to get it back in HST. An average family, a family of four, is going to pay $1,800 in the first two years of HST implementation, and they’re going to send them a cheque for $900. The people of Ontario aren’t stupid. They’ve caught on to this, and at every door I’ve gone to, the people are ticked off.

So, once again, a nice present with a big bow on it that’s not worth the paper it’s written on.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): The member for Northumberland–Quinte West.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: It’s a pleasure to rise to speak to this particular piece of legislation. I just want to make a quick comment on something that the member from Durham just said a minute ago, that imitation is the highest sense of flattery. He thinks that copying the federal process was a good thing. The member needs to remember that not too long ago, we debated the tax reform and the HST, and that’s something that was initiated by the same folks in Ottawa.

Let me talk about this particular piece of legislation. Yes, I heard from parents. I mean, I was a parent; I have nine grandkids, so I know what it takes to play hockey and soccer. But what I did hear, though, from those parents is: “Can you help us out a little bit?” They know that taxpayers’ money needs to be spent wisely. “Can you help us out a little bit?” Because those families with those kids—I know what it costs to drive to hockey games and take your kids to practice.

I know that the folks I spoke to in my riding over the last week or so, when this announcement was made, are quite happy. Is there enough? I’m not sure what “enough” really is enough, but I know that they’re very, very appreciative of at least the thought that we recognized, we listened, and we’re now delivering.

The member from the NDP would say, “Well, this is nothing.” Maybe $50 to him is nothing, but I know to my daughter, to my son, to my grandkids, it is something. Yes, it doesn’t pay the whole bill. No government ever paid for the whole bill. But anytime that we can help, I think it’s something that we need to do, and keep our ears tuned to listen to other things that we can do.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): The member for Burlington.

Mrs. Joyce Savoline: I guess when I heard this was happening, it was a clear admission, in my estimation, on the part of the government that the HST, in fact, was a mistake because you’re having to fix things as you go along. The problem is you can’t fix the whole problem unless you deal with it in a much bigger way. So a $50 tax credit to a family, and the administration costs that ensue—people are shaking their heads. They’re saying, “What the heck is going on here?

They’re charging us hand over fist for things: more for energy, more for gas, more for hockey equipment, more for hockey registration, more for baseball registration, more for everything. And they’re going to send us a cheque for $50. Well, isn’t that rich?” That’s what people are saying to me. It’s a joke.

It’s an absolute joke, and a clear admission that the HST was the wrong thing to do in the first place. If you’re going to give a meaningful tax credit, I would herald it, but this $50 is an insult to families who know that it costs you almost 50 bucks to send the cheque out.

People in Ontario have awakened. They have seen this government, continually over this term, not consult and institute higher costs in either taxes or fees without any consultation, and in most cases, with very little heads-up on what is going to happen and certainly no explanation. When a consultation is required and asked for by the people, it’s denied. People won’t look favourably on this.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): The member for Kitchener–Conestoga, you have two minutes to respond.

Ms. Leeanna Pendergast: I’m really quite encouraged to respond to the comments we’ve heard here. I think the first response I’ll make is that I am a parent, and I have three sons in sports, both physical and non-physical. I tell you first-hand, the testimony of this parent is that that makes a difference. Every little bit helps, and I tell you first-hand, it does make a difference.

The NDP and the PCs can sit in the House and call this a joke. That’s absolutely unacceptable.

You know what they’re calling a joke? Let me just tell you what they’re calling a joke. They’re calling $75 million every year a joke. They’re sitting there saying that about benefiting and helping over 1.8 million children in the province of Ontario.

This will help 1.1 million families in Ontario. This is something that the McGuinty government is doing. We’re doing it now, and it is helping families. For the Conservatives and the NDP to sit in this House and call it a joke is absolutely shameful. The McGuinty government is helping families. We are doing it now. I’ll tell you where we’re doing it again—

Interjection.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): The member for Hamilton East–Stoney Creek, come to order.

Ms. Leeanna Pendergast: We’re doing it in areas that have never been done before—fitness and non-fitness. Young people who are involved in music, dramatic arts, visual arts: They are now going to be supported. Students who need language instruction are now going to receive support so parents can put their children in the language instruction that they need. Developmental needs that are crucial to students in this province in order to be successful in the future: Parents are receiving that support from the McGuinty government so that these children can prosper and flourish.

This is no joke. This is a wonderful thing to do for the youth of the province of Ontario, and I’m proud to stand here and support this.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Further debate.

Mr. Norm Miller: It’s my pleasure to have an opportunity to debate Bill 99, which is

An Act to amend the Taxation Act, 2007 to implement the children’s activity tax credit.

I note that the parliamentary assistant, the member from Kitchener–Conestoga, was quite far-ranging in her comments talking about this bill because Bill 99 is all of a few pages. It’s very thin. I noted that the member was talking about, it seemed like, every program to do with families and children that the Liberal government has, including full-day learning in kindergarten etc. I’m just pointing that out for the Speaker in case my comments happen to cover more than this specific tiny bill before us.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Since the member has brought that up, that’s a good point. I was listening, and I give members a little bit of latitude, but I like to hear them come back to the issue. That’s my comment to you as well.

Mr. Norm Miller: I can say, Mr. Speaker, perhaps I shouldn’t have brought that point up, then.

I will be sharing my time with the member from Durham, as well, because it is a fairly thin bill here.

I would like to comment that the member from Hamilton East–Stoney Creek did point out that it’s only $50, and he compared how many skate sharpenings that would pay for. I would simply say that, having played on the Legiskaters with the member from Hamilton East–Stoney Creek, on the same line, I don’t think it matters whether we have dull skates or sharp skates.

Now, back to the actual bill. I would simply say that, as the member from Hamilton East–Stoney Creek mentioned, this is like handing out crumbs when you’ve taken the whole loaf of bread from Ontario families. It’s more about optics. It’s certainly a small amount of money going back to Ontario families: $50. I would say that for many families, they won’t be able to afford to pay the $500 to be able to get the $50 back—it’s a 10% tax credit—because so much has already been taken by the McGuinty government. I will go through some of the tax increases that are affecting Ontario families.

To begin with, let me just briefly go through the bill. It’s fairly straightforward. You get a tax credit of up to $50 by spending $500 on certain approved sports programs that involve muscular strength, muscular endurance, flexibility or balance.

That is modelled very much after the federal tax credit that is similar to this one—although the Ontario version also has other programs that qualify for the tax credit, and that’s things like music, dramatic arts, dance, visual arts, language instruction, activities with a substantial focus on wilderness and the natural environment, activities with a substantial focus on helping children develop and use particular intellectual skills, structured interaction among children where supervisors teach or help children develop interpersonal skills, or enrichment or tutoring in academic activities.

It’s $50 based on spending $500 for qualifying expenses and an additional $50 for a disabled child, so the total would then be $100 for two children, one being disabled. The tax refunds would come—I know this government likes to send cheques, and it would be administered by Revenue Canada, so it would come from the federal government.

I guess anything, even if it’s crumbs coming back to Ontario families, is something that we would support. But as I will outline, Ontario families have been hit so hard that this will not make much difference for them. Fifty dollars is not going to go very far in terms of all the additional costs that Ontario families are facing.

That’s more or less what the bill is about. It’s pretty thin; it’s pretty straightforward. Some of the eligible activities, just to expand on that a bit, are things like aerobics, Scouts or Cubs, cadets, badminton, chess, ball hockey or cooking for kids. There’s actually a fairly long list of various qualifying activities that the Ontario government program is going to qualify for: Scouts, tennis—it goes on. However, as I say, our concern is that this is really a pittance. It’s like taking a dollar and giving five cents back, except in the case of the McGuinty government, it’s more like taking thousands of dollars, when you add up all of the additional charges, and giving $50 back.

There’s no argument that we need to do more to encourage physical activity in our society, particularly amongst children, because if, as a child, you get involved with sports, you learn the importance and you enjoy physical activity, there’s more chance that that will become something you’ll do for the rest of your life. I know some of the medical officers of health have pointed out that functional activity actually has the most benefit over a lifetime. I think they mean by “functional activity” where you’re actually walking to work or riding to work—you’re getting activity for a purpose.

I’m sure one of the other speakers will elaborate on that once we receive more information from the medical officers of health who have looked at it.

But certainly there are huge benefits for society in getting young people in particular to get more involved, to get healthier. Across North America, we definitely have an obesity problem. We have chronic diseases like diabetes that are on the upswing. I know I read an

article in one of the newspapers last week saying that diabetes costs—I believe it’s up to $4.9 billion in Ontario, and it’s predicted to be over $7 billion by 2020. Obviously, getting people active at a young age and keeping them active their whole life has benefits for the health care costs, for quality of life and many other things.

That’s part of the reason I have a private member’s bill—that will be debated on Thursday—that, if it passes, would require provincial secondary highway shoulders to be paved when they’re being rebuilt. That gives people more of an opportunity to cycle close to home, to cycle when they’re visiting an area—perhaps Prince Edward county, Manitoulin Island, Niagara, or Parry Sound–Muskoka would be one of the prime destinations. When they’re visiting those areas, if there are more places to ride, then that will be an attraction for the area. It will also be a benefit for the people in the area.

Doing things to encourage more physical activity, I agree with. I think there are lots of benefits to it.

Getting back to this bill, we’re talking about a $50 tax credit for families. I’d simply say that families in the province have faced so many increased costs; they’re feeling very squeezed, and I certainly hear about it on a regular basis from my constituents. Look at some of the increased costs that have been passed on to families. We have a Toronto election going on right now. The government passed the City of Toronto Act.

As a result of that, there’s now a municipal land transfer tax and there’s the personal vehicle tax on Toronto residents, so that the average Toronto home has gone up by $3,000 and the cost for a Toronto family is about $120 a year for a two-car family. Together, that’s an additional $381 million out of Toronto taxpayers’ pocketbooks, and that’s an additional cost.

Of course, we’ve seen one of the largest tax increases, despite the Premier saying he wouldn’t increase taxes in a couple of elections: the Ontario health premium. That’s a big cost for Ontario families. Despite that, of course, we still have seen challenges in the health care system. I know I certainly see it in my own riding, where Muskoka Algonquin Healthcare is struggling to balance its budget.

It’s still projecting a deficit—I believe it’s over $3 million this year—despite having a deficit reduction plan and despite having made significant cuts, most recently cutting cafeteria services and shutting down the Burk’s Falls health centre. Unfortunately, there’s a lot of waste out there in the health system. So despite Ontario residents and families paying this new premium, which has generated over $15 billion, we’re still seeing cuts in health care, and that’s an additional cost for Ontario families.

Energy is becoming a huge thing. I’m hearing from constituents who are watching their energy bills go up, and that’s having a big effect on the family budget. Constituents are writing to me; they’re concerned about all of the various energy charges and increases. It seems to be—I could go through them, but the smart meters are certainly one of them. In my area, they’ve installed smart meters but they haven’t turned them on, yet everybody’s bill has gone up.

So I’m not sure what’s going on with those smart meters, but I’m hearing from other MPPs, when we have our caucus meetings, that they’re hearing the same story from constituents: that they get these new meters installed, and—I don’t know whether they’re having technical problems with them, but their bills seem to go up significantly. Most of that is anecdotal, but I would say it has been a very common theme from many MPPs I’ve talked to, and also from individual constituents.

I’ve got a letter here from—I won’t name the constituent. I know they said we could read it, but I don’t know whether they necessarily want their name in Hansard. Here it is:

“I would like to add our concerns about the new hydro smart meters to others that I’m sure you have received. Our new meter was installed last August at our home on Kahshe Lake. We live here for six months of the year and it is closed” for up to six months.

“Our actual usage from October 15 to January 13 was 15 kilowatt hours per day. Most of that time, except for a few days, we weren’t here and everything was off except for heating our little storage area to 10” degrees. “Then, under the same conditions, from only January 13 to February 11 our actual usage was 62 kilowatt hours per day! That’s four times the usage per day under the exact same conditions! January may be a cold month, but, not enough to make anything like that difference!

“Then, the next month, under the exact same conditions and probably just as cold outside, we used 45 kilowatt hours per day!

“I believe that these meters have some kind of fault. Please take the time to question Hydro One about them.”

They go on from there. That’s not an uncommon—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Member for Parry Sound–Muskoka, on the point you and I discussed earlier, you had equal time with the government member on a different topic. I would like to hear now about Bill 99.

Mr. Norm Miller: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I say, Bill 99 is about providing a few crumbs to Ontario families to relieve the burden of other increased fees that the government has brought about, so I was just illustrating some of the other increased fees. I think energy is certainly one of the areas. Ontario families are really noticing substantial increases in their energy bills. Unfortunately, that’s something that is continuing. The forecast in the future looks very challenging. Energy is something that pretty much all families do have to pay for.

Of course, another increase that also affects energy is the fact that the—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): I think we should nip this all in the bud, and we should keep our remarks to Bill 99. I don’t recall seeing some of what you are discussing in Bill 99. Please.

Mr. Norm Miller: As I say, I think it does relate to Bill 99. I don’t, of course, want to argue with the Speaker, because that would be against the rules—

Interjection.

Mr. Norm Miller: —or challenge the Speaker, but Bill 99 is about giving a $50 tax credit to Ontario families. I’m simply illustrating—and if I was able, I would like to illustrate how so many different costs have increased through the programs brought forward by the McGuinty government.

There’s a long list that I have here of various tax increases that have been brought forward by the McGuinty government. I think the fact is that we’ve seen so many different increases for Ontario families on such a variety of staples that they require, energy certainly being one of the things you can’t live without in the province of Ontario—and the new HST, which applies to so many things that families depend on.

Many are related to Bill 99, because of the cost of being involved in sports. Sporting activities involve driving a car, for example. If your child is playing hockey, on dull or sharp skates, you have to get them to the hockey arena. I know in my case, I had three kids who played hockey, and living in rural Ontario, that involved thousands of kilometres a year. In fact, I think I’ll call it the worst year when they were all playing on travel teams. We put about 50,000 kilometres on one winter getting around to various locations in Ontario, to various arenas.

Obviously, if you’re buying fuel for 50,000 kilometres, with the new HST, it’s going to be a lot of extra tax for Ontario families. This $50 rebate would hardly cover the fuel for one trip to one game on one weekend. There are some real, substantial costs involved in participating in sports, but this bill is going to have a mere $50 come back to Ontario families. I think that we as the opposition support anything, whether it’s crumbs, that the McGuinty government decides to give back to Ontario families, but they’ve been faced with so many different large increases in the sorts of costs that they just can’t avoid paying.

Also, if you are going to travel to a soccer game or to figure skating or take your child to Scouts, one of the qualifying activities, you have to have an automobile, and you have to have insurance on that automobile. Recently, the government has made changes to auto insurance and, essentially, people will be paying more for automobile insurance and getting the same or less coverage. I just received a letter from a constituent here, and I’ll just see if I can find the letter from my—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Member for Parry Sound–Muskoka, you’re really making it tough for the Speaker. The standing orders are very explicit. I try to give some latitude, but I think you’re stretching it and I don’t want everybody else to have to get into that position as well. So, please, Bill 99 is about some very specific issues which you could address. Please.

Interjections.

Mr. Norm Miller: The government members are making it difficult for me, Mr. Speaker.

We’ve made it clear that we’ll support it even if it’s crumbs coming back, $50 crumbs coming back, despite the government taking thousands of dollars from the pockets of Ontario families. They’re going to get a few crumbs back, and we’re going to support them getting that bit of money coming back.

But I think it is important that the real concerns of Ontario families—and these are real letters from real people who are concerned with increasing costs they are facing that come out of the same budget that’s going to give this $50 back. I have a letter from a constituent very concerned about the fact that her auto insurance is going up and they’re getting less coverage. That’s part of the family budget that this $50 is going to be going into. I have letters from seniors concerned about the HST and how that’s going to affect their ability to survive.

Unless they have grandkids, they probably won’t be getting the $50 back, so they are out of luck there. The point I would like to make is simply that $50 is relatively insignificant. I think it’s more about optics, about politics, than it is about really benefiting Ontario families. Having said that, we’re supporting them getting these few crumbs from the McGuinty government.

I’m sure the member from Durham—I think he’s working on his notes right now—would like to make further comment. I would simply conclude by saying that this $50 is relatively insignificant compared to all the various increased fees and taxes that have been brought about by the McGuinty government since 2003. It’s thousands of dollars in increased taxes, thousands and thousands of dollars, and they’re going to get a mere $50 back for some families under this program that is now before the House in Bill 99.

With that, I will pass the floor on to the member from Durham.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): The member for Durham.

Mr. John O’Toole: I know the member has made a very emphatic case that we would be supporting this but we are disappointed in the fact that, I guess, in the broadest sense—you’ve got to start at square one here. I think the Premier, in all fairness, listened. The outrage because of the HST, broadly, the cancellation of programs that would then be not affordable, some of which we’ve been talking about being hockey and other activities for young children—they would be paying HST; therefore it would become unaffordable.

If you look at the $500, I guess you’d be paying about 13%, roughly, so it would be $65 tax, and you’re going to get back a tax credit of $50. I think there’s a maximum as well for a family of $100 for, as has been mentioned, the case of a child with a disability. Up to the age of 18 they’d be eligible for up to $100. That’s pretty well what the bill says, but it has some other questionable language that needs to be addressed.

There was quite a good

article in the Globe and Mail, I thought, for the viewer at home who might want to stay addressed to it. It says here, “Activities that are not related to sports would have to be supervised, suitable and not part of a school curriculum in order to be eligible, and would include programs such as drama, choir or Girl Guides.”

You know, in some respects they haven’t quite got it right. I think there’s a couple of discriminatory things here, because technically, today what we’re trying to do is encourage young people, and indeed older people, to stay active. Why are they having a tax, the HST, on gym memberships? We’re trying to keep the active lifestyle, and I would endorse that.

I would propose an amendment here: that we change the age restrictions from 16 to anyone who’s participating in an active activity or program. For instance, persons with Alzheimer’s are encouraged to do Sudoku and crosswords and social programs of interaction. Why are we discriminating against seniors? I think they’ve got it wrong. I think it’s partially right—and I see the member smiling, the new minister. Congratulations, as well. But my point being, it’s so skilfully cheating the people of Ontario—

Hon. James J. Bradley: Cheating?

Mr. John O’Toole: Well, “cheating,” meaning not giving them their full reward. I mean, paying tax on a gym membership?

Obesity is a problem in many of the age groups. It’s not just unique to young people, and one way of combating that is to encourage physical activity: walking to and from school or work, as I do. I walk up from the GO train at Union Station up to here pretty well every morning. I would think that at the Legislature, if they want to do something important here for members, they should have a change room and a shower room so as you walk up from the GO train and you’re perspiring, you could have a shower and a change room.

But if I had a membership at the University of Toronto Hart House, I would have to pay tax on that, HST. I should be able to get a refund. I should be able to get the tax refund, and so should anyone who’s doing things that benefit themselves and society at large. We’ve got this health problem. You know, the unaffordability of the health care system is one of the topics that’s in the media today.

So I’m saying that Bill 99 doesn’t get it done. It’s an admission that they went overboard on the HST; it’s a clear admission. They’ve copied a program which the federal government, under Stephen Harper, initiated. Our leader, Tim Hudak, would probably work co-operatively if this was a fair tax credit, a reasonable solution to the heavy-handed HST that the people of Ontario are struggling with. This is about jobs and the economy.

The amendment that I think we should propose here—but our critic, Mr. Miller, has a solid hand on the finance file, I can tell you that. He has great experience in that as well. His dad, I believe, was a former Treasurer as well as a former Premier of Ontario. Mr. Miller’s father brings a lot, and Mr. Miller does as well.

I think it’s a cynical PR move, as has been said by some of the media. I’m looking at this from the Windsor Star—the members from Windsor should take heed here—in the paper just the other day: “Ontario finance minister Dwight Duncan is selling the new children’s activity tax credit as a tax break for families who spend money on extracurricular activities for their kids.

“‘This is designed to make it more affordable for parents to have their kids in sports and cultural events.’ Duncan said. Covering everything from hockey and soccer to art lessons, the measure allows parents to deduct up to $500 to receive an annual rebate of ... $50 per child or $100.”

This is an admission. It’s a cynical PR move, and I think the Windsor Star has it right. I would say that senior citizens’ groups should be outraged that this is unfairly targeting children who—by the way, activities in school are exempt. Well, children playing some of the musical instruments, often in programs today we’re finding out, have to buy their own reeds for their wind instruments, and for string instruments.

It’s up to $570 a year that the average family is paying in schools for extracurricular activities. Why aren’t these eligible? Even for access to the Internet sometimes they’re being charged, and other kinds of activities—sports equipment, as well as for theatre. Children perhaps have to forgo part-time jobs to take

part in the school play. I remain concerned that this is nothing but an unfair, unpleasant way of dealing with a significant tax grab.

Bill 99 is only part of a solution to the dreaded HST. I think we’ve come to a complete admission. I see members on the government side shaking their heads. They know that this tax—we were seeing it yesterday on electricity. Mr. Shurman, the member from Thornhill, raised a very good point on the electricity bill going up 13%. Why don’t we get a similar program?

This Bill 99 needs to go out for public consultations. I would encourage that. Let the people of Ontario have some say in this shifting, sliding, creeping tax grab that the HST is. I think there’s room here. You’ll find consensus on this side for more public hearings, and this Bill 99 is a good place to start. As I said, the whole bill itself—in fairness here, I’ve just finished reading it—is a page and a half. If you read the

preamble to the bill, which is important to put on the record—the parliamentary assistant, the member from Kitchener–Conestoga, didn’t take the time to do that. I’ll just say that this is the explanatory note of the bill:

“The bill amends the Taxation Act, 2007, to implement a children’s activity tax credit.”

It goes on to say, “The children’s activity tax credit is set out in the new

section 103.1 of the act. The credit is refundable and is based on amounts that are indexed under

section 23 of the act. For taxation years ending after 2009”—so you can’t go back retroactively—“an individual is able to claim a credit in respect of expenses incurred in enrolling a qualifying child in a program of physical activity prescribed under the Income Tax Act (Canada) or a qualifying program. The maximum credit for 2010 is $50 per qualifying child and an additional $50 per qualifying child with a disability. The credit would be claimed in the tax return filed by the individual for the taxation year. Consequential amendments are made to subsections 84(1) and (3) of the act.”

If you go into it, this is how much time they spent on this $50 tax credit—and the amount of money they’re going to spend on processing it. I can’t believe it. To process a cheque, first of all the individual applying for it and their accountant—by the way, now they have to pay HST on that accountant’s fee. When they apply, they have to retain their receipts. If you haven’t retained your receipts, you’re ineligible. So when you’re registering your child in hockey or in a dance program or whatever activity or program, keep the receipts. The organization now has to specifically issue a receipt for tax purposes.

Those receipts will all have to be numbered, because you could be making them up. These are auditable statements now. They’re not just some person teaching gym or jazz or whatever else; they have to have an accountable, valid tax receipt with a number on it and all the rest of it. That’s more red tape for small business right there. The hockey teams now are going to have to have registered receipts. This is what I think. For $50—wait a minute here. I don’t think we can support this. It’s just creating more red tape for the hockey leagues, for the dance groups, the theatre groups, for the hiking groups, whatever.

It’s just another bunch of red tape.

In fact—I didn’t make this up—if you look, we’re spending time this morning, and the government, in fairness to them—and I give them credit; at least they didn’t spend an hour talking about nothing. It’s a “Cynical PR Move.” I think that sums it up. That’s in the Windsor Star; that’s the home paper for the Minister of Finance. They get it.

But when I go on here, then the Canada Revenue Agency has to actually audit the documents. They may have to send correspondence to the filing applicant to say, “You’re missing a receipt,” or “It’s not a valid receipt.” That person is probably making about $80,000 a year, the auditor who’s looking at the form. I can’t believe it.

Then, if you’re eligible—let’s say you only spent $499. Then there was tax. The tax can’t be claimed as an expense. Say you paid $480 to register the two children, or whatever it was, in hockey, dance, theatre or a play. The tax would bring it up to, let’s say, $530. It wouldn’t be a $500 expense because part of that expense was tax. Now an auditor is going to spend the whole morning talking to you on the phone about this: “You didn’t have an expense of $500. Therefore, you’re not eligible.”

I can’t believe it. Look at the pile of red tape that they have created. It’s unbelievable.

Mr. Rick Johnson: Read the bill.

Mr. John O’Toole: You haven’t read the bill. I question—the member from Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock needs to pay close attention here. The member from Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock should spend more time talking about wind turbines. You had the Premier down to implement this program in your riding. The Premier of the province went to his riding and—

Interjection.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): On a point of order, the member for Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock: What standing order are you referring to?

Mr. Rick Johnson: The member is referring to things that aren’t involved in Bill 99.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): That’s not a point of order.

The member for Durham.

Mr. John O’Toole: With all due respect, he’s a pleasant fellow. He had the Premier down to his riding to talk about Bill 99. It ended up there was a whole bunch of people from the Peterborough Regional Health Centre—the member from Peterborough is here—and they were there protesting the layoffs at the Peterborough Regional Health Centre. The next thing is there was a big protest about the wind turbines in his riding. The whole program—it was on television.

Interjection.

Mr. John O’Toole: It was on CHEX Television. It was a week ago—two weeks this Thursday.

Interjection.

Mr. John O’Toole: Yes, there was. The member from Peterborough is interjecting now.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Yes, and I would like you—

Mr. John O’Toole: The member for Peterborough is actually wrong—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Let’s nip this one in the bud, too. The member for Durham, you’re supposed to speak through the Chair. The responses on the government side can be limited, too, please.

Mr. John O’Toole: I think I’ve made the point that really—poorly—but the point being made, it’s 72; we’ll go for 72.

Speaking of 72, that’s the other bill, the water bill. There’s another bill where there’s tax on water now. That’s what that bill is about. I can tell you. I’ve read it. I spoke on it yesterday.

This is another case where our Premier, Premier Dad, has a spending problem. In fact, I would say this bill—

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): The member for Durham, I can tell you that at our Speakers’ meeting this morning, there were specific references that the Speaker this afternoon will refer to, and you’ve just used one of the ones we are not going to allow.

Mr. John O’Toole: In that case, it’s still fairly legal until this afternoon. But I will respect that. I won’t press the limit anymore.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): You know what, folks? You can tell when members have nothing to say because they start talking about everything.

Mr. John O’Toole: The last comment by the Speaker is saying virtually what I’m saying: There’s nothing in this bill. There’s no money, there’s no content, and there’s no consideration for seniors.

I encourage our critic Mr. Miller from Parry Sound–Muskoka to actually move an amendment to make this tax credit eligible—the parliamentary assistant from Kitchener–Conestoga is here. I would extend this—this is a positive idea—to all persons, especially persons suffering under a medical condition, for participating in things, whether it’s Alzheimer’s, obesity or whatever, or even persons with diabetes and things like that—these growing chronic diseases—so that they could also get a tax credit. Now that is something that I think we could find unanimous consent for today on this bill.

If you’d recognize that it isn’t just a slick PR move—this is a real attempt to offset some of the onerous burdens of the HST. I hope the Premier’s listening—in your office, probably with a coffee and your feet up on the desk. Nonetheless, I would hope that he’s listening.

I can commit that our leader, Tim Hudak, thinks fairness and reasonableness is the way to work together, working together with smart policies on tax changes, recognizing that this activity tax credit might need to go out for public hearings to expand the scope of it and the entitlements to other groups.

We’ve specified 16 and under; persons with disabilities, 18—what I’m suggesting is 65 and over as well.

The members from Northumberland and Peterborough might want to speak up in caucus on this, and I think Mr. Rinaldi and I are both over 65, so we’d probably qualify.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: Hey, hey, I’m not. Speak for yourself.

Mr. John O’Toole: God, you look like you are. But anyway—

Interjections.

Mr. John O’Toole: No, it’s the pressure. It’s the pressure you’re under. I understand that.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Maybe it’s time I intervened again.

Mr. John O’Toole: These programs—if you read in

section 2 of the bill, I think it’s in

section 103, clauses (

a) and (b), here’s what’s not included: the cost of travel and accommodation, any amount that is an eligible fitness expense and any amount deducted under the federal act. If you’ve already claimed it federally, you don’t get it.

Here’s another thing: It goes on—and great language; I don’t get the convoluted language. It says, “‘Ineligible activity’ means an activity or type of activity prescribed by the Minister of Finance for the purposes of this section.” There’s a whole series of regulations of ineligible expenses or ineligible activities that have to be issued here and gazetted. It says, “‘Ineligible program’ means a program or type of program prescribed by the Minister”—in other words, he hasn’t really figured it all out yet—“of Finance for the purposes of this section.”

Qualifying: Here’s another—listen to all of the words to this thing. “‘Qualifying activity’ means a supervised”—keyword: “supervised”—“activity suitable for children”—who’s going to make these calls?—“that is not an ineligible activity”—wait a minute, here—“that does not promote illegal activity”—wait a minute—“and that involves one or more of the following ... ” I can see more red tape here and abuse.

But Girl Guides, it specifically said—how about Scouting, Venturers and cadets? This summer, I attended a couple of programs where the sea cadets or the air cadets were demonstrating in their community in a positive activity. In fact, these are the young leaders of the future. I think those programs shouldn’t have to go through a lot of red tape to qualify. Look, there are still expenses incurred when they’re going to a camp for the air cadets or the sea cadets. Let’s look at this and get it right.

Why are we trying to rush this through? I think it’s like a lot of things that have happened over the summer; they screwed them up. Pardon my language. They didn’t implement them properly. I think we’ll all admit that. The eco tax is a perfect example of the ill-conceived—they didn’t even think about it. In fact, the minister basically had to step aside. Minister Gerretsen is, in all due respect, a nice fellow, but he is no longer the Minister of the Environment. Why? I think it’s the eco tax. They dumped him.

Interjection.

Mr. John O’Toole: Well, obviously he’s not there anymore, and that program was shelved. But just stay tuned; it’s only shelved for 90 days. There’s another new tax coming on 9,000 products—an additional tax. Imagine taxing cars—an eco tax. They’re already taxed to death: the gas they use. Every time you fill up with gas now, you’re paying tax.

This seems to be a bit of overusing the time here a little bit, perhaps, but here’s the point: It’s clear the consistent result of everything that has happened here in the last year or so is more taxes.

Interjection: They should probably change their name to the Liberal taxation party.

Mr. John O’Toole: The Liberal tax-and-spend party. I think we should put a motion forward to change the name of Premier McGuinty’s party to the tax-and-spend party, TSP. It’s a nice acronym.

Interjection.

Mr. John O’Toole: We have lots of names: hard-working, committed, trustworthy.

There are a lot of things in this bill that I have looked at that I think need to be discussed in the public forum. I would call for public hearings on this bill and I would ask that you consider giving the tax credit to seniors who take the time to take care of themselves, fitness—

Mr. Jeff Leal: Tai chi.

Mr. John O’Toole: Tai chi, the member from Peterborough mentioned. I think these are extremely valid observations and I think we would support—I know our leader, Tim Hudak, spoke about it recently, his concern for senior citizens. In our caucus yesterday, he was in a very highly emotional state talking about the impact of the HST on seniors. He was thinking of his parents, I’m sure, and his young child as well, who are going to live in a regime where you’re going to have to file first, probably, in this bill, the way I read it, to see if the program you’re applying for is eligible.

Because it’s not quite described here yet. It’s going to be done in regulation. It says that right here; that’s on page 2 of the bill. I would suggest that somebody taking art lessons, for instance, would have to pay tax on the supplies. But I’m calling on the Premier in this debate today to have public hearings and to listen to seniors and consider them for those activity tax credits.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bruce Crozier): Pursuant to standing order 8(a), the House is in recess until 10:30 of the clock.

The House recessed from 1017 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Robert Bailey: I’d like to introduce in the gallery today friends of ours from all across Ontario and my riding: Mr. Ed Borkowski, the new executive director of the Ontario Association of Food Banks; accompanying him this morning are Mr. Myles Vanni from the Inn of the Good Shepherd in Sarnia, and from Ottawa, Ms. Judy Dancause, the chair of the Ontario Association of Food Banks.

The Ontario Association of Food Banks will be meeting with all members today to talk about my private member’s bill, Bill 78, a food bank donation tax credit for farmers. I’d ask you to welcome them to the Legislature today.

Mr. Randy Hillier: I’d like to introduce in the gallery today Kevin Somer, mayor of Smooth Rock Falls, and Harold Wilson, president of the Thunder Bay Chamber of Commerce.

DECORUM IN CHAMBER

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Just before we begin question period today, I want to take a few minutes to follow up on comments made by myself yesterday and continue to address the matter of decorum.

Recognizing that question period is, by its very nature, an intense proceeding of this House and carries with it some latitude of behaviour, it should nevertheless be remembered that the public do watch, and there is an expectation of good conduct placed on all of us.

I am not so naive to deny that there may be other ambitions or aspirations involved in question period besides those of seeking information and holding the government to account. Nevertheless, that is the primary purpose of this proceeding, and there are certain principles that we can follow that would serve to move us in the direction of that outcome. Among those principles are the proper use of language and form of address.

First, it is helpful and serves to mitigate the likelihood of insult if members direct their remarks to me in the chair. Remember that. When you’re standing up, don’t be looking across the aisle; be looking at the Speaker. The talent of speaking in the third person may be one that many of you find difficult, but I ask that rather than hurling accusations directly at your colleagues across the floor, you make the effort to speak to me and through me. I will be reminding all members to do so more frequently.

Second, there’s a long-standing tradition in this House that we refer to each other by title or riding name rather than given name. Doing so raises the level of debate from the personal to the professional and recognizes that we are here in representation of our constituency.

In the past, Speakers have exercised some latitude in the enforcement of this traditional guideline. For example, it has for many years been acceptable to make reference to a particular administration by the Premier’s last name, as in the “Harris government,” the “Eves government,” the “Rae government” or the “McGuinty government,” and I have no issue with that.

Where the use of names becomes problematic is when it is done in a manner that is disrespectful or mean-spirited, used in an insulting, accusatory or mocking tone or context intended to debase an individual member. It is unparliamentary, and it is unacceptable. You need only to look as far as yesterday’s Hansard to understand what I mean. There are examples there from both sides of the House and throughout question period.

I know that all honourable members are astute enough to know the difference between temperate, respectful language and that which is insulting or offensive. Speaking through the Chair and properly addressing each other serves to enhance the level of discourse and raise the bar on decorum.

So take this as fair warning that I will be demanding a greater observance of this practice as we go forward. Thank you, members.

ORAL QUESTIONS

SMART METERS

Mr. Tim Hudak: A question to the Premier, or if not, then the Acting Premier, as the case may be: Premier, on April 20, 2004, you said to Ontario families that smart meters would “save you money.” The Premier repeated that promise again on May 14, 2009, in a media release. Could the Premier inform the House exactly how much money smart meters have saved the average Ontario family?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: To the Minister of Energy.

Hon. Brad Duguid: I would think the Leader of the Opposition would be aware that we’re in the process of installing smart meters across this province. There are 4.1 million or so that are installed as of today, and our goal is to have 4.5 million. I’d also suggest that time of use is part of what smart meters do. Indeed, smart meters are on the way to implementation as well.

The latest estimate we have is that about 800,000 people have smart meters installed in their homes at this point in time. It’s far too soon to know what the precise savings will be for those particular individuals or for the system as a whole until, indeed, smart meters are much more further rolled out.

We do have studies that have been done, pilots that have been done, and in my supplementary, I’m happy to share the information that we have at this point in time with the Leader of the Opposition.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: I thought I heard the minister say that he has no clue. He said that he doesn’t know how much you’re going to save families. The Premier promised that the smart meter experiment would save money for average families. You’re hell-bent on putting millions of these across the province, and you’re telling me that you don’t know what their impact is going to be? What level of incompetence has the energy policy of the McGuinty government descended to?

Let me put this in perspective—and back to the Premier. Families are struggling in Ontario today to make ends meet. Your smart meter experiment has been very expensive on the backs of seniors and small businesses, and you can’t tell us if they’ll save money or not. Premier, won’t you admit that your expensive smart meter experiment has gone badly off the rails?

Hon. Brad Duguid: This is not just about the prospect of consumption management, although that’s very, very important. Smart meters do a lot of things, and I think it’s very important that all members in this Legislature recognize that the investment in smart meters is a very important investment as we build out our smart grid, as we prepare our energy system to take on the challenges of the future that consumers, businesses, our government—all Ontarians—are going to face.

It’s about ensuring that we have precise details to energy providers when there’s an outage or a malfunction on the grid—that’s an improvement to our system. It’s about enhanced accuracy on meter reads. It’s about reducing tampering and theft of electricity. It’s about environmental benefits as a result of load shifting. It’s about proactive customer service when outages and malfunctions are immediately known. And it is, indeed, about enabling time of use—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Mr. Tim Hudak: The minister says that smart meters do a lot of things, but what I’m hearing about when I talk to Ontario families across the province is one thing they do do, and that’s squeeze more money out of the wallets of hard-working Ontario families. These are not smart meters; they’re nothing but Dalton McGuinty’s latest tax machine—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock.

I will remind the honourable member of the statement that I just made that we refer to either the government or a position or a riding.

Mr. Tim Hudak: These smart meters are nothing more than tax machines. Minister, you know that they’re very expensive to install. You know that there have been serious questions about reliability and accuracy, to the point where Measurement Canada reported that your smart meters do not meet federal standards.

I’m going to ask you, Minister: Given the great problems you’ve had, given the announcement yesterday that you’re backtracking once again on off-peak power, given it’s nothing more than a tax grab, won’t you do the right thing and set this aside until you get this program right, and freeze this program today?

Hon. Brad Duguid: We all know, and it’s important that Ontarians know, that the Leader of the Opposition simply does not support the important and critical investments we’re making in our energy system to build a stronger, more reliable and cleaner system of energy. He wants to take us back to the days when the Leader of the Opposition was serving in cabinet, when his policies and the policies of his government of that day created a weak, unreliable and dirty system of energy that was polluting our air, impacting the health of our kids and impacting the future health of our grandkids.

We have come too far, Ontarians have worked too hard to go back to those days of a weak, unreliable and dirty system of energy. This government cares about the future of our kids. This government cares about the future of our economy. This government cares about our energy future—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Stop the clock. Members will please come to order.

New question.

SMART METERS

Mr. Tim Hudak: To the Premier. Premier, the Ontario PCs have opposed your smart meter experiment from day one because we knew that your smart meters were nothing more than expensive tax machines that would hit families and seniors hard. They have gone badly off the rails. There are serious questions about their accuracy. They have become very expensive to install, and you signal that you are once again backtracking on the rates you’re charging for time of use.

Premier, I’ll ask you to do the right thing. Will you admit that this program has gone badly off the rails, freeze it now, and fix the problems before you put one more smart meter in a family’s home across this province?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: This is our third day of question period, and I sense a lot of negativity from the leader of the official opposition. There are a lot of things—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Members will please come to order.

Premier?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: As I was saying, I sense a lot of negativity from the leader of the official opposition these days. Apparently there are many things that he does not like about Ontario. On the other hand, there are many things that we do like about Ontario. We’re proud of the work that Ontarians continue to do working together, whether it’s involving moving ahead with public education, the quality of education we offer our children, the quality of health care that we offer all our families, or the work that we continue to do together to ensure that we have in place a modern, reliable, clean electricity system.

I hear on a regular basis from the leader of the official opposition about what he doesn’t like, but I’ve never heard him put forward a single positive policy proposal, and I’d like to hear that from him—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you, Premier.

Supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: Premier, simply do the right thing. Freeze your program in place and fix the growing problems with your expensive smart meter experiment. Quite frankly, Ontario families cannot afford Dalton McGuinty’s expensive energy experiments anymore—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I remind the member again of my statement that I made and remind all members they are to use titles, riding names or ministries. Please continue.

Mr. Tim Hudak: Quite frankly, families face the choice of a Premier who wants to lecture seniors to do their dishwashing after 11 p.m., to do their laundry at 2 in the morning, to tell families with kids to get them up at 4 or 5 in the morning to have their showers; we, instead, believe consumers should have a choice.

We believe families make the best decisions for their own household budgets. I’d ask the Premier to freeze this program and offer families a choice on whether they want to participate going forward.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Again, my honourable colleague begins with a very negative outlook on the people of Ontario.

We believe that they actually want us, in a positive way, to build a new, reliable, clean electricity system. We believe they want us to invest, for example, in that massive expansion of hydroelectric capacity at Niagara Falls. We think they do want to be given the opportunity to participate in savings in their own home and electricity conservation through smart meters.

I think one of the shared responsibilities we have on all sides of this House is to make sure that the consumers, householders, have access to good-quality information about smart meters that we’re introducing into their homes, about the new options that it creates for them so that they can participate in this exciting new development here in Ontario as, together, we build a reliable, clean, energy-efficient electricity system.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary?

Mr. Tim Hudak: Premier, I stand with families who believe that they, not the Premier, can decide best how to conserve energy and lower their power use. While the McGuinty government favours using sticks to drive up costs on consumers through hydro and through taxes, we want to put more carrots in the system, more incentives, and give consumers choice on how they approach their energy bills.

Premier, this has gone badly off the rails. Your minister admitted he had no clue what the cost is going to be to Ontario families, and you have taken us down a multi-billion-dollar expensive energy experiment that is hitting seniors and families hard.

Will you do the right thing, Premier? Freeze this in place, fix this program, give families a choice, and quit going after their pocketbooks.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Well, my honourable colleague is against smart meters. He’s against giving Ontario householders a new choice, a new option available to them with respect to the usage of electricity. He’s against full-day—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Premier. Members will please come to order. Member from Halton. Member from Durham. Minister of Community Safety.

Premier.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: We’re also aware, of course, that he’s against full-day kindergarten. We’re also aware that he’s against the tax provisions that we put in place to help Ontario families. Again, I say, on behalf of the people of Ontario, there will come a point in time—I think we’re fast approaching that—when the leader of the official opposition might want to put forward some positive policy proposals so we get a better sense of where it is that he wants to go.

HYDRO RATES

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Premier. The Premier admitted yesterday that the current smart meter pricing scheme simply isn’t working.

My question is a simple one: Will he rule out a rate hike during daytime hours?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I think my honourable colleague knows that we don’t live in that particular world; we live in this one. The fact of the matter is we live in a world where we are building a new reliable, clean, modern electricity system. There are new costs associated with that.

For example, we’ve already brought online 8,000 megawatts of new generation. We have invested some $8 billion in that new generation. We’re also investing—I think it’s close to $4 billion—in some 5,000 kilometres of new transmission. There are some real costs associated with building that modern, reliable, clean electricity system.

The leader of the NDP knows that, and I’m sure she wants to understand that and make sure that when she addresses these kinds of issues, she’s not telling us that the price of electricity can never, ever go up in the province of Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The Premier keeps defending this latest boondoggle that his government has brought forward, but seniors and families simply cannot afford another single penny on their hydro bills. So why won’t the Premier rule out increases that will bring those rates to 10, 11 or 12 cents per kilowatt hour?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Energy.

Hon. Brad Duguid: Clearly the leader of the opposition is totally misinformed. This project is on budget, it is on time, and indeed, there are 4.1 million meters that have been installed to date, on the way to 4.5 million. She really doesn’t know what she’s talking about when it comes to the—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock. I will continue to stand up through the question period, as I commented earlier, endeavouring to do my best to ensure that we conduct ourselves in a professional manner and not make comments as were just made. I would just ask that you withdraw the comment, please.

Hon. Brad Duguid: Mr. Speaker, I’m happy to withdraw that.

The fact is, I think what the leader of the opposition really ought to be sharing with Ontarians is, what would she replace our aging infrastructure with? What kind of meters would she want to be installing our aging infrastructure with? Would she want us to be using past technology or would she want us to be modernizing our technology?

There is a cost to modernization of our energy technology. There is a cost to giving the opportunity for Ontarians to be able to shift their usage from peak usage. But at the end of the day—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: This billion-dollar boondoggle is breaking the budgets of families in this province. That’s what this minister needs to be aware of. Yet the Premier and his minister both agree that they think this turkey is actually going to fly in the province of Ontario. But seniors like Ralph Addison tell us that being gouged doesn’t help to conserve energy. He says this: “I am a retiree living primarily on investment income. Smart meters will add about 35% to my monthly hydro bill, as I stay home in the summer.... Where is the fairness in that?”

Will the Premier tell Mr. Addison today that he won’t be raising hydro rates during daytime hours?

Hon. Brad Duguid: The Premier and I and our government from day one have said that as this program is implemented, we’re going to continually be reviewing the differential between peak use and non-peak use to ensure that we get it to a really effective balance where those who are shifting use will have the incentive to do so, and those who are unable to shift their use are not unduly harmed by that.

This program is in the implementation of being installed. The NDP is already offside on a project and a program that is going to be able to help conserve, to help shift the use of energy, to help reduce the tension in our system in terms of having to build more energy supply. One would think that their critic would be very much at odds with the—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

HYDRO RATES

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is to the Premier. The Premier’s plan isn’t saving energy but it is definitely hurting people. These are the stories that we are hearing. Mrs. Duff writes this: “My husband and I are retired and living on a fixed income. My hydro bill with the new smart meter has cost us our social life.... We no longer go to bingo or even a movie.”

My question is: Will the Premier be raising rates during daytime hours?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I want to be very clear because I think we owe this to each other and we owe it to Ontarians: Electricity rates in the province of Ontario are going up. It may be that my colleagues opposite are proposing a rate freeze. If that is their policy, I think it’s important that they make that public. But on this side of the House we’ve got to contend with reality. We inherited an electricity system that was weak, unreliable and dirty. We’re investing billions and billions of dollars into modernizing a system so that it’s strong, reliable and clean. We think that’s the responsible thing to do.

We’ll work as hard as we can to keep rates down as much as we can, but we will continue to invest in a strong, reliable, modern, clean system, and there is—I think it’s important to be clear on this—a cost associated with that.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: People already feel that they’re being gouged under this Premier’s pricing scheme.

Chris Savoia writes this: “The actual increase to my latest hydro bills has been in excess of 80% ... my bills have averaged less than $80 a month....

“Suddenly the new meters come in ... and I find myself paying an average of $140 per month.”

Can the Premier guarantee Mr. Savoia that he won’t be jacking his rates higher in a desperate bid to make this boondoggle scheme work?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Again, I will try to lend a little bit more definition to the difference between that side and this side of the House.

We’re going to work as hard as we can to keep rates down as low as we possibly can, but I want to be direct with the people of Ontario. We inherited a system that was weak, unreliable and dirty. It was not in keeping with our expectations, not in keeping with our standards, and, frankly, not in keeping with the values that we share as a people. So we have taken this responsibility on.

We’ve had our shoulder to the wheel for some time now. We are making massive investments in new generation, clean generation. We’re making massive investments in new transmission. At the same time, through our green energy plan, we are creating thousands and thousands of new jobs. There is a cost associated with that, but we’re going to work as hard as we can to keep those costs down for consumers.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock. As I’m sure when the leader of the official opposition asks a question he wants to hear an answer, I know that the honourable members would want to offer that same respect to the leader of the third party. I would just ask that they be conscious that when somebody is responding to a question that the honourable leader of the third party asked, they give that leader the courtesy of hearing the answer.

Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: This government has already blown more than a billion dollars on the smart meters plan, but people are not conserving energy. They simply are not conserving. The Premier admits that his scheme isn’t working; he says he wants to provide an incentive to them. On behalf of the people all over this province, all over Ontario, who are already getting the shock of their lives when they open their hydro bills, I want to know: Is this Premier planning to raise their rates in a desperate attempt to make this scheme fly?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: Again, I think it’s really important that we be clear on this because it’s a very important public policy debate. My honourable colleague the leader of the NDP is, I believe, proposing the same thing as the leader of the official opposition, and that is that we impose a rate freeze on electricity rates in the province of Ontario.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Push it to the tax base, just like you guys did.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I want to be very clear: What that means is that you push those costs over to the tax base. You transfer those costs over to taxpayers. That’s not something we’re prepared to do.

What we are prepared to do and what we have been doing is investing heavily in a new, modern, clean, reliable electricity system: billions of dollars in new generation like that massive project at Niagara Falls and the massive project over the Lower Mattagami in northern Ontario. We’re going to continue to invest massively in transmission projects and we’re going to work as hard as we possibly can to keep rates down for consumers. But we want to assure them that when they go to the wall and flick the switch, the lights—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

HYDRO RATES

Mr. John Yakabuski: It looks like the Premier and the energy minister’s defence of this hydro rate hike is scaring half of the caucus members out of this place.

My question is for the Premier. A Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters report added up the cost of your hydro rate increases. Since today, since the increases already, it said that Ottawa families will face a further 42% rate hike by 2015. Data from the same report says that your hydro increases will make families in North Bay pay 43% more, families in Peterborough will pay 44% more, and you’re making families in Barrie, Markham and Richmond Hill pay 45.5% more. Just how much more will families have to pay for your hydro policies after 2015?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Energy.

Hon. Brad Duguid: I’m delighted that the member has asked this question because it gives me an opportunity to talk about a very important initiative that our government moved forward to over the course of the break, an initiative that, frankly, we moved forward to in consultation with many of the big industries in this province to ensure that we gave those industries the opportunity to engage in conservation measures, to shift their use from peak use and lower their energy costs as a result.

The result of this initiative—and this is not just according to the Minister of Energy; this is according to those industries—is, they will be able to increase their production, increase the amount of jobs that they’re creating in this province, lower their energy costs and lower the costs to the entire system. It’s a smart thing to do, and I’m very glad the member brought this question up because it gave me an opportunity to—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. John Yakabuski: People won’t be able to afford those products they’re producing because they can’t afford their hydro bill. Dalton McGuinty doesn’t have a plan—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I remind the honourable member of the statement that I made earlier: that we refer to positions, ministries or ridings.

Mr. John Yakabuski: The Premier doesn’t have a plan, but don’t take my word for it; take the word of the energy minister, who recently confessed in a media interview that, “We’re in the process now of putting together our long-term energy plan.” Seven years in office. There used to be a plan but George Smitherman ripped it up four years ago.

The McGuinty Liberals are making families pay hundreds of dollars more for their hydro rate increases, Samsung deals, windmills, back-door energy tax and an HST on top of it all. How could you, Premier, have taken families down this path without a plan?

Hon. Brad Duguid: That is almost laughable coming from the other side of the House. What we’ve been talking about over the last number of years is our plan to build a stronger, more stable and cleaner energy system. Maybe the member hasn’t heard of the Green Energy Act, which is creating thousands of megawatts of clean energy in this province. Maybe the member hasn’t heard about our plan to get off coal by the year 2014, which is going to be cleaning our air and improving our health. Maybe the member hasn’t heard about the 8,000 megawatts of power that we have brought on—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock. The same comment I made in regard to the leader of the third party—I think the honourable member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke would like to hear the answer as well.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Yes.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I remind all members, again, to have that respect for the discourse of the question and the answer. Please continue.

Hon. Brad Duguid: I find it hard to believe, after all this effort on behalf of Ontarians, on behalf of our government to transform the weak, unreliable and dirty system of energy that we inherited to a strong, reliable and clean system, that the member would not have recognized this plan that we have had for a very long time in place—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

PENSION PLANS

Mr. Paul Miller: My question is to the Premier. If the Premier and his finance minister had seriously considered the Expert Commission on Pensions recommendation for an Ontario pension agency and implemented it, Nortel workers would not be in the position they’re in now. The mandate of that proposed agency was to deal precisely with these situations, ensuring pension stability and providing cost savings for taxpayers.

You had two years to implement your own expert’s recommendation. Why didn’t you?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: The member is wrong. It would not have done anything that he’s suggesting. It’s unfortunate that he doesn’t want to acknowledge the fact that not only have we moved on, as I recall, almost 80% of the recommendations contained in that report, but what we are doing is trying to build more sustainable pensions for all Ontarians and ensure their proper regulation. We have looked very carefully at the proposal by some of the Nortel pensioners and rejected it because what it will do is make the $2.5-billion vastly underfunded pension more risky.

It will cause greater anxiety for pensioners, and in fact, it has been rejected by a number of those pensioners themselves, as well as people on disability who are not pensioners. You ought not to be exposing those people to greater risk on their future income and security.

We have taken the appropriate—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Paul Miller: The minister is totally wrong. Nortel pensioners negotiated in the courts an extension from March 30 to September 30 to continue to work with your level of government on a win-win alternative to windup by annuity, but your government has stalled them at every front, trying to run out the clock. The recommended financial sponsorship model will save the pension benefits guarantee fund about $100 million. Why are you ignoring these savings by implementing the costly windup by annuity?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Because it will expose those people who are already paying too great a price to even greater risk. That’s why the leaders of the disabled Nortel workers have said no to you. That’s why the disabled workers at Nortel and other pensions have told you unequivocally that they don’t want you to threaten the security of their pension.

This is an unfortunate circumstance. We have invested $250 million in the pension benefits guarantee fund. That will likely protect the pension benefits of some 90% of Nortel retirees and future pensioners.

We cannot take risks like the member opposite wants to do. We’ve seen this movie before. People have been left exposed across a range of industries. We’ll continue to build a stronger and better pension system based on the recommendations of Professor Arthurs and many others.

NORTHERN ONTARIO DEVELOPMENT

Mr. Gilles Bisson: My question is directly to the Premier. You know that currently we have First Nations leaders out on the front lawn, we have mayors from northeastern Ontario, some of whom are with us here today, and we have chambers of commerce from across northern Ontario, who are all gathering on one issue, and that is to say, “Stop the process on Bill 191, the Far North planning act.” None of them see this as a resolution to the issue that needs to be dealt with.

First Nations want a land use planning process, but one that protects their interests and something that allows, at the end of the day, certainty for those who are going to invest in the area in a way that makes sure that we protect our environment.

The question is to you, Premier. Are you prepared to put the brakes on this process and respect the new relationship that you say you have with First Nations?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Natural Resources.

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: I’m really pleased to answer the question, and I want to tell the member from Timmins–James Bay that we respect the rights of aboriginal people and we are happy that they are here to express their concerns in a respectful, peaceful and responsible manner.

We’ve been listening to their concerns for the last two years, in fact. I went up to the north this summer, visited eight communities and spent whole days listening to First Nations communities. We’ve listened during standing committee on Monday, and I was impressed with the level of discourse about the bill. I appreciated your suggestions on how the bill could be made better. I continue to listen. This is just the beginning of a listening dialogue with our First Nations communities, because we want to protect the north as well as provide environmental protection. The boreal forest is an extraordinarily important commitment for this government.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Minister, if you’re listening, why are they out on the front lawn? They’re not here all the way from places like Kasabonika, Sandy Lake, Attawapiskat, Thunder Bay, Smooth Rock Falls, Timmins and other communities because they like what you’re doing. They understand that the development of the Far North is important to northern Ontario, but we all understand in the north that if development is to happen, it has to be in a way that will benefit First Nations. This bill doesn’t do that. So get off of this high horse, saying that you’ve consulted, because they’re out on the front lawn telling you no.

I ask you again, will you do what we have suggested in the New Democratic Party and back off and go into a process that allows us to get where we need to go at the end so that First Nations’ interests are protected and the people of northern Ontario can also benefit from those economic activities?

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: Should Bill 191 pass, we believe that it will take concrete action to make a positive difference in the Far North. We understand that they need economic help and social help. This bill is going to provide the tools to provide that framework.

There’s a lot of activity happening in the north. We know that the Ring of Fire is just one of those projects. There are going to be hydroelectricity projects and forestry projects. We need to give First Nations the capacity and the skills training. They need the resources to come into their community. Each individual chief has told me how interested they are in development coming to the north.

We believe this is the right thing to do. Our government is moving forward and having that conversation with First Nations communities. We know that it’s important to protect the Far North. It’s an asset, it’s a jewel, and we need to protect it. This legislation will work with First Nations. We continue the dialogue.

RESEARCH AND INNOVATION

Mr. Yasir Naqvi: My question is to the Minister of Research and Innovation. Minister, it’s clear to all of us that a difficult economy means companies, investors and governments are facing very tough decisions on investments in uncertain times around the world. As we begin recovering from the economic downturn, the availability of venture capital is especially important, as banks have become more cautious in their lending and investors look to stable returns.

Innovative high-growth companies in the province are seeking venture capital funding to expand business opportunities and create jobs for Ontario families. They are companies like Energate in Ottawa that are looking to grow and prosper but need help raising capital.

Would the minister tell us what he is doing through his ministry to support these emerging companies that have an idea or product but lack sufficient funding?

Hon. Glen R. Murray: This is a centrepiece of our Open Ontario plan. In fact, we have created the $250-million Ontario emerging technologies fund to co-invest with qualified investors in high-potential companies in three sectors: clean technologies, life sciences and advanced health technologies, and digital media.

To date, the Ontario Capital Growth Corp. has successfully closed and announced not one, not two, but eight investments under the OETF with Avvasi, Bering Media Inc., ecobee, EnviroTower, Energate, b5media, Morega Systems and Natrix Separations. We have already leveraged institutional investors, corporate investors and our partners in the federal government to establish a $205-million Ontario venture capital fund, and Ontario has committed $90 million towards that. This signals—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Yasir Naqvi: It is important that the government is committed to ensuring that Ontario, the economic engine of Canada, remains on the cutting edge of research and innovation. This is especially critical as we grow out of the great recession and compete with the world for new investments and jobs for the 21st century. We must compete vigorously with other jurisdictions like Quebec and British Columbia to leverage private investment money into Ontario business for the benefit of Ontario’s economy and families.

I’ve been speaking with businesses in my riding and organizations such as OCRI, the Ottawa Centre for Research and Innovation, about the challenge of leveraging venture capital. Could the minister tell my local innovators what this government is doing to support them in leveraging private venture capital?

Hon. Glen R. Murray: We understand, in this government, that wealth is increasingly generated by the innovation economy and that our production economy’s success is increasingly reliant on innovation. The $65 million underlying the fund commitment is expected to raise between $300 million and $500 million in total funds from the three current Ontario funds in our Open Ontario plan, but it’s sometimes more powerful to tell a story.

I’ll give you one example: EnviroTower Inc., which I mentioned earlier, is a water treatment company with an environmentally sustainable solution to the challenges of using water cooling in towers, offices and other buildings. This technology typically delivers savings of 20% in water consumption and 15% in water cooling systems and jobs.

This is more investment in Ontario, this is direct forward investment, this is new jobs, and this is what Ontario—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

NORTHERN ONTARIO DEVELOPMENT

Mr. Randy Hillier: My question is for the Premier. Yesterday, Premier McGuinty summed up why he is out of touch and why Ontario families can no longer afford him when he insisted Ontarians, including aboriginal communities, support his Far North Act. It’s an odd thing to say given that he’s scrapped public hearings, his northern caucus has cleared their seats in the backbench and northern Ontario families and aboriginal leaders have travelled to Queen’s Park to protest against the bill.

Just who was in the room with Premier McGuinty who supported this bill? Or was the Premier looking into a mirror?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Natural Resources.

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: I’m pleased to answer this question. I’ll admit I was disappointed when the hearings weren’t going up north this summer, but it was a great opportunity for me. I myself got to visit eight different communities, and I’ve chatted with at least 25 chiefs and counting about the legislation. I was very impressed with a lot of the presentations. We had elders, we had young people come out and talk about the legislation and how to improve it. A lot of that discussion informed the changes that we made to the bill.

We’ve done some very different things with this bill. In fact, we went out last summer and we’ve gone out this summer to get that advice from the First Nations community. We are listening. We continue to listen to First Nations communities. They’ve given us some very helpful suggestions on how to make this historic legislation.

This is about providing a balance between protecting the environment and allowing economic development to continue. It’s a good thing to do.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Randy Hillier: Again, to the Premier. Premier McGuinty hasn’t even been in the same room as the aboriginal and northern Ontario families whose economic opportunities he’s cutting in half. What the McGuinty Liberals offer families is scrapped consultations so he doesn’t have to listen to them. The choice Tim Hudak and the Ontario PCs are offering is respect, respect for families living in the north who want to prosper by exploring economic opportunities in their region—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock. The Minister of Finance and the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs will please come to order.

Mr. Steve Clark: You don’t like to hear the truth.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Start the clock, and it’s not helpful from the member from Leeds–Grenville.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Or the Minister of Economic Development. Please continue, honourable member.

Mr. Randy Hillier: The choice Tim Hudak and the Ontario PCs are offering is respect, respect for—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock, please. It is all about respect in here, and the same comments that I made I would ask that you do of your own leader and be conscious of that as well, too.

Mr. Randy Hillier: We offer respect for families living in the north who want to prosper by exploring economic opportunities in their region. They don’t want their land base frozen into a massive park.

Premier McGuinty says northern Ontario families want this bill. They say they don’t. Who’s lying?

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I just ask the honourable member to withdraw the comment, please.

Mr. Randy Hillier: Withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Minister?

Hon. Linda Jeffrey: I’m really pleased to talk about Bill 191 because I think it’s a commitment of our government that I am particularly proud of. It’s going to do three things: It’s going to provide certainty for businesses on how they can operate in the Far North; it’s going to give local First Nations a voice about where, when and if development will occur; and it will provide environmental protection for the boreal forest, which will assist Ontario in fighting climate change. Those are really good goals to have, and I would have thought that you would be supportive of that, but you just don’t get it.

There are so many opportunities in the north, and we are particularly pleased with providing certainty to businesses as well as First Nations communities. We’re going to work respectfully with our First Nations communities and northern communities. I have travelled the north, I continue to have that conversation and I appreciate the advice that you provide, but I’m going to keep working towards making sure that we provide—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

MANUFACTURING JOBS

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Premier. The closure of Siemens Hamilton gas turbine plant is a blow to 550 workers, their families and the city’s economy. Now Siemens is shopping for an Ontario location to manufacture wind turbines. The existing Hamilton plant is a logical location; it’s the logical choice. Further to my recent letter to the Premier on this matter, I want to ask what steps he has taken to encourage Siemens to retool that Hamilton plant for wind turbine manufacturing.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: I just want to continue, first of all, to say that we very much value Siemens’s investment in Ontario and we’re going to continue to work with them to ensure they remain here. Obviously Hamilton is a very attractive locale. What I really want to point out as well is that the honourable member has been saying for some time now that she is opposed to our Green Energy Act, and now a company, which is exploring expansion here and doing work here on the very premise of our Green Energy Act, is looking for work here, looking for a location, and she’s standing in favour of that.

So I’d just like her to get her story straight and decide whether she’s in favour of the Green Energy Act or not. We are. We understand the financial upsides, the economic upsides, it has for our economy, and we’ll continue to promote that.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: I think this Premier is quite aware that Siemens will receive millions of public dollars for the wind turbine manufacturing. I think he’s quite aware of that. New Democrats believe that these public investments should actually come with strings attached. We’ve been saying that over and over and over again. Perhaps the Premier hasn’t heard it.

Telling Siemens to return to the Milton Avenue plant in Hamilton, with its skilled CAW workers and road, rail and water links, makes perfect sense. The workers and their families simply want to know why the Premier won’t insist that Siemens do just that and invest in our community.

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Energy.

Hon. Brad Duguid: We believe Hamilton is a great place for anybody to invest. The members that we have representing that area have worked very hard to ensure that this government has invested in Hamilton in infrastructure and invested in Hamilton in energy, and we know the Green Energy Act is going to work for Hamilton as well.

I think the people of Hamilton would be very interested in this question because they would want to know that the leader of the opposition is trying to take credit for jobs that may go to her community, jobs that she did not support in the first place, jobs that she does not support to this day. That’s something that I think would be important and of interest to the people of Hamilton. I think that’s shameful.

WATER QUALITY

Mrs. M. Aileen Carroll: My question is for the Minister of the Environment. In my riding of Barrie, the ecological balance of the beautiful lakes in our community is a major concern and a major priority. All lakes, as you know, contain phosphorus, a natural, growing and occurring nutrient, that all things that live need to grow, but it has become—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock. If there are issues pertaining to the question that was just asked previously and there is discussion that wants to continue, I think on behalf of all the members I would prefer that discussion to take place in one of the outer chambers or outside so that it doesn’t interfere in the business of the House.

Please continue.

Mrs. M. Aileen Carroll: Concerning phosphorus, it has become far too abundant in Lake Simcoe and, indeed, results in excessive plant growth. I know, talking this summer to fishermen and talking to cottagers, that it’s an ongoing problem, that there’s a lot of concern about that, worry about the declining fish population and other eco-system damage.

I’m wondering if the minister can please tell this House if the McGuinty government is serious about taking action to protect Lake Simcoe.

Hon. John Wilkinson: I can assure my friend that we are absolutely committed to protecting Lake Simcoe. That is why we brought in the Lake Simcoe Protection Act. I would note that there has been no stronger advocate in this House than my colleague and friend the MPP for Barrie on this issue.

She is absolutely correct: It is about making sure that we reduce the amount of phosphorus going into the lake so it is restored to its ecological health. That’s why we have a phosphorus reduction plan that sees the phosphorus going into the lake reduced from the current level, which is 72 tonnes per year, to 44 tonnes per year. That’s a reduction of some 40%.

It’s that key point that is necessary. We need everyone within the community, everyone within the lakeshed of Lake Simcoe to play their part. We will play our part through the act and through the regulations to ensure that we have that balance that is required by Mother Nature so that we can enjoy Lake Simcoe for many, many years to come.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mrs. M. Aileen Carroll: My constituents will be pleased to know that the McGuinty government remains committed to taking action to clean up and protect the lake, and they’ll be happy, indeed, to know that the phosphorus reduction strategy is only one part of a larger plan.

As you mentioned, the larger Lake Simcoe Protection Act enshrined watershed protection into law and will clean up Lake Simcoe, protecting it for the next generation. But phosphorus reduction alone isn’t enough. Can you please share with the House and my constituents—very important—a progress update on the Lake Simcoe Protection Act and what else you’re going to do to protect this beautiful lake?

Hon. John Wilkinson: I thank my friend for the supplementary because under the Lake Simcoe Protection Act, which was proclaimed in the House on June 2, 2009, we have the concept of having a protection plan. We were able to get some wonderful recommendations about what we need to do to go forward, some 119 recommendations. I’m proud to share with the House that we have some 88 of those recommendations in the first year already in place or under way.

I can remind the member that we have established a Lake Simcoe science committee and a Lake Simcoe coordinating committee to provide guidance and expertise on the protection efforts. It’s important that it’s always based on sound science. We’ve released the Lake Simcoe water quality report, which provides baseline information for the past 29 years of water quality monitoring of the lake, to make sure that information is available, and we are implementing a state-of-the-art fisheries and aquatic biodiversity monitoring—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

PENSION PLANS

Mr. Norman W. Sterling: I have a question for the Premier. Premier, I want to talk to you about the sorry mess of the pensions from Nortel. This particular pension plan is going to be handed over to you on September 30. Let us remember that $2.5 billion of this pension plan is their money; it’s not the government’s money. The pensioners have met with me and many members of this Legislature, and I do not take away from the intent of any member of this Legislature to try to do the best we can with, I say, the sorry state of affairs.

The pensioners, though, are frustrated because they have presented an alternative to you, the financial sponsorship model, but the answers they have received back don’t make sense to them or their experts.

This is not a partisan issue. This is dealing with 12,000 Ontarians and—

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: The member raises a very valid concern and has spoken and worked hard on this issue, and I acknowledge his efforts on that, as have a number of our other colleagues in this House. It is a very bad situation.

I’ve met with them; a number of my officials have, a number of our members. We’ve examined the proposal. We believe that the reason for the disagreement among the pensioners themselves is that in fact the proposal puts that $2.5 billion at higher risk. That’s why particularly the disabled former Nortel employees, many of whom have not achieved retirement age, are opposed to this. That’s why a number of pension actuaries we have consulted with say this is too high-risk a strategy and that in fact it will not enhance the future pension security of Nortel employees. We did put $250 million into the pension benefits guarantee fund—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Norman W. Sterling: Mr. Minister, 37 of 400 disabled employees support your solution; 37 of 18,000 pensioners support your solution. So let’s not misrepresent the support that they have for your plan. This is their money. The $2.5 billion is their money, not the government’s money. We believe that the government owes an obligation to justify their rejection of this plan. Premier, will you set up a select committee of this Legislature or another system of consultation or mediation to review this expert testimony in public so that both sides can reach a reasonable conclusion?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: The $2.5 billion does remain their money. The member knows that and he’s well aware of that. This FSM buyout model has been looked at and experimented with in other places. Let me just share with the member a quote: “In sum, non-insured pension buyouts are now viewed with suspicion by nearly all stakeholder groups in the UK today. Even the buyout providers themselves acknowledge that non-insured buyouts are not viable in the short to medium term.

According to one buyout provider, ‘Insurance is the answer; not trying to do some dodgy deal.’ Another buyout provider said, ‘This is a failed business model.’” This is from leading experts in the UK who have looked at this model.

What we are intent on doing is ensuring that the vast majority of Nortel pensioners continue to receive a substantial—indeed, close to 90% of their pension income.

SOCIAL ASSISTANCE

Mr. Michael Prue: My question is for the Premier. The Minister of Community and Social Services promised to consult “partners in the poverty community” before replacing the special diet allowance. The Minister of Health never made such a promise, and in fact, groups like 25 in 5 have never been consulted. Will the Premier confirm that the government will listen to the views of groups like 25 in 5 and, more importantly, to low-income people who rely on the allowance before making drastic cuts to the program?

Hon. Dalton McGuinty: To the Minister of Community and Social Services.

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: Thank you very much for this question. It’s a very important question. As you know, this ministry is always in consultation with people in the poverty sector to help us make the right decisions. It’s not an easy process. It’s not an easy decision, as you know, but this government wanted to make sure that we are doing the right thing. That’s why we have at the table these experts on poverty, and we will continue to consult them.

I have moved forward with this consultation to review the poverty area and especially the welfare benefits and ODSP benefits that this government is providing.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Michael Prue: When this government was consulting last year, 25 in 5 were the experts. Now they won’t be consulted at all.

The McGuinty government says that it is committing to building a healthy Ontario. The reality is that the McGuinty government is quietly planning to take millions of dollars out of the pockets of thousands of poor and vulnerable people with diabetes, health conditions, heart conditions, HIV and hypertension, taking away their last hope of staying remotely healthy by reducing the amount of money they have for healthy food.

My question: Why won’t the Premier or his ministers stand up for the poor and those with health challenges and provide a guarantee that no one receiving the allowance today will be left worse off than they are now?

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: This is a great question, but no, I cannot stand up today and say that those who are receiving special diet today will be receiving it in the future. Along with the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care and the ministry responsible for poverty, we are all working together to make sure that those who are in need of special diet will receive it, but not everyone who is receiving it today will receive it.

We have a report from the Auditor General that this program is unsustainable. We started in 2003 with a $6-million expenditure on that. It is now $240 million and it’s growing. This program is unsustainable. We are reviewing it and we will come up with another program that I hope will be sustainable.

RURAL INFRASTRUCTURE

Mr. Jeff Leal: My question is to the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs.

Minister, broadband Internet access is viewed today as essential infrastructure for both our social and economic well-being. While urban residents have had access to powerful broadband connections for years, many residents in our most remote and rural communities have not realized the same benefit. Given the importance of being connected in today’s day and age, access to broadband infrastructure should be available to as many Ontarians as possible.

Building broadband connectivity for Ontario’s rural families and businesses opens up new economic opportunity, investment attraction and citizen engagement in rural Ontario. In the great riding of Peterborough, local municipalities are looking to attract new businesses, but often barriers, including access to fast Internet connections, stand in the way of companies deciding to locate in our area. Can the minister let this House know about the steps the government has taken to ensure access to broadband infrastructure?

Hon. Carol Mitchell: The McGuinty government is committed to investing in broadband infrastructure. We know that broadband conductivity investment will bring more industry to rural regions and it will create jobs that will help our rural communities prosper.

Our government continues to address gaps in Ontario through strategic investments, and one of the investments I want to speak to specifically is the investment in eastern Ontario, $55 million that was funded through a regional broadband proposal from the Eastern Ontario Wardens’ Caucus. Last month, we announced that the rural broadband network—they’re ready to begin construction.

To put it in context, this large-scale broadband project is a major achievement in eastern Ontario. It will service an estimated one million—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Jeff Leal: I know the warden of Peterborough county, J. Murray Jones, wants to thank the minister.

My constituents will be pleased to know that our government is working to provide them with further opportunities to connect socially and commercially. The ability to connect through broadband infrastructure will allow for the continued success and prosperity of rural Ontario.

Funding for the eastern Ontario broadband project is just one of the many investments made by this government to create more opportunities for rural Ontarians to take a leading role in Ontario’s new economy. Minister, can you please tell this House about some of the other programs available to support and assist rural Ontario?

Hon. Carol Mitchell: Thank you for the question, and I can tell you, I will enthusiastically respond. A strong rural Ontario makes the whole province stronger. We get that. But I want to speak to the accomplishments to date: 282 rural economic development projects, a $103-million investment—that’s generating over $771 million in investments; 280 COMRIF projects—that represents a $298-million investment, generating an additional $900 million in investments; and 28,000 students in rural Ontario found summer jobs through our rural summer jobs program.

We get it on this side of the House. A stronger rural Ontario makes the whole province prosper, and we have demonstrated that—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION

Mr. John O’Toole: My question is to the Premier. Back in 2007, the federal, provincial and municipal levels of government signed the Flow agreement on the future of transportation in Ontario. As part of that agreement, Premier, you promised that the province would extend the 407 all the way through to Highway 35/115 by 2013. In fact, in December 2007, David Caplan restated the province’s promise—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock. I remind that we refer to members. The clock has stopped, but I just remind you again.

Mr. John O’Toole: Thank you very much.

Now your government has broken its promise by telling us the extension will only be completed to Si