May 1, 2003 RESOURCE COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the House of Assembly.

CHAIR (Aylward): Order, please!

(Inaudible) our Resource Committee, is my understanding. I am not sure that

is the exact location for it, but it is listed for our meetings isn't it?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Okay.

I want to welcome everybody here this morning for the Estimates of the

Department of Labrador & Aboriginal Affairs. I want to welcome the minister

and his officials. I also welcome members of the Committee, and would ask that

the members of the Committee identify themselves to our microphone and to

Hansard, please, to start off this morning.

MR. TAYLOR: Trevor Taylor, MHA for The Straits & White Bay North.

MR. E. BYRNE: Ed Byrne, MHA for Kilbride.

MR. YOUNG: Wally Young, MHA for St. Barbe.

MS M. HODDER: Mary Hodder, MHA for Burin-Placentia West.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, MHA for Port de Grave.

CHAIR: Kevin Aylward, MHA for St. George's-Stephenville East.

Mr. Minister, after you introduce yourself and your deputy or assistant

deputy, whichever title, you can also then have an opening fifteen minutes, or

up to fifteen minutes, to introduce your department or go over the mandate. Then

the Opposition will have the opportunity and the members of the Committee will

have the opportunity to provide questions to you and your officials.

If you would like to introduce yourself and your officials, then also you can

do your opening remarks if you like.

MR. ANDERSEN: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Wally Andersen, MHA for Torngat Mountains and Minister of Labrador

& Aboriginal Affairs. On my left is Sean Dutton, Assistant Deputy Minister.

The Department of Labrador & Aboriginal Affairs was established just a

few years ago. Its mandate is to carry out large files in Labrador. We do all

the dealing with the Aboriginal issues in the Province: the Innu, the Inuit, the

land claims. We deal with the Aboriginals on the Island. Any issues that are

dealt with, we liaison between the Aboriginals and Ottawa. Any big files in

Labrador go through the office of the Department of Labrador & Aboriginal

Affairs. Any other department in government that proposes files in Labrador,

they go through our office. Any documents pertaining to Labrador are signed off

by me as the minister. As I said earlier, the deputy is located right in

Labrador, along with our staff. We also have a staff here in St. John's that

are doing the day-to-day negotiations with the Innu and the Inuit. If you ask

why the negotiations are in St. John's, it is because it was agreed upon in

1996 by both the Innu and the Inuit on an offer from Premier Tobin at the time

as to where they wanted their negotiations to be held. Prior to that, it was all

held in Ottawa. It was agreed by both the Innu and the Inuit that all land

claims negotiations would take place in St. John's because they felt it was

better to deal with all the appropriate departments in government.

It is a large file. We deal with, as I said, all the issues that pertain to

Labrador. The wood operation comes through our office, even though it falls

under forestry. I guess their mandate is to try and provide a voice to the

people that they never had before. Certainly from all aspects, the majority of

the people in Labrador seem quite comfortable in working with the department.

The amount of files that we handle is fairly large.

I guess that is basically in the crux of what we do. It is a challenge.

Again, most of our staff today, half of them are in Labrador and half are here

in the office in St. John's.

We are open to any questions. Certainly, I think my assistant deputy has been

with the department since day one; so, as we go through, probably most of the

questions raised on the finances will be answered by him. Any on the department

that you might have, certainly the minister will answer.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

The Chairman concurs that your assistant deputy is one of the brightest ADMs

in the country, as far as I am concerned. I am supposed to be a moderator, I am

not supposed to give commentary, but there is occasion when I do.

Opposition, would you like to have a commentary this morning, or questions?

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Minister, and the staff person, for coming.

Mr. Chair, if we could move a motion to reduce the minister's salary to $1,

to start....

CHAIR: I have some (inaudible).

MR. E. BYRNE: I am only joking.

Thank you, Minister, for coming this morning. The portfolio you have, I

understand the importance and significance of it. I guess it is a place where

all issues, as you have indicated yourself, relating to Labrador, must be signed

off by you as Minister Responsible for Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs, and

everything pertaining to it.

You mentioned forestry. I would assume the same would hold true for Works,

Services and Transportation. Are you actively involved in all of those files,

whether it be the Labrador Highway, the development of the forestry industry,

possible development of more agriculture in the area? All of those things that

are on your plate, are you dealing with those?

MR. ANDERSEN: Basically, Ed, all these departments that come through us

outline to us exactly what they are proposing. We have officials in our

department who work with them. Sometimes we do some research for them, provide

information to them. Yes, basically every file in Labrador, we -

MR. E. BYRNE: Any decision that is made within Labrador must be signed

off by you as minister, you are saying, so you are involved?

MR. ANDERSEN: Yes.

MR. E. BYRNE: Minister, in terms of the ongoing negotiations on Lower

Churchill, for example - I will get to the Estimates in a few moments - how

heavily is the department involved - was involved, or still is involved - in the

negotiations in the past, and whatever the status of those negotiations are now?

MR. ANDERSEN: Certainly, I think one of the key factors involved, if

there is going to be a development of the Lower Churchill, is that we negotiate

on behalf of the Province - the Department of Labrador & Aboriginal Affairs

- a land claims with the Innu Nation. They are key, if a Lower Churchill deal

goes ahead. That is where the department has played a very key role, for

example, dealing with the Innu Nation or the Band Council, and certainly

providing information to Mines and Energy, which probably plays a lead role in

the development of the Lower Churchill. These are some of the ways that we are

involved with the development of the Lower Churchill. Certainly, with regard to

the concerns of the people of Labrador, most of the concerns are brought to our

office and we pass them along to the different departments.

MR. E. BYRNE: Minister, last year you had budgeted - and this is in the

Estimates itself, on subsection 1.1.01. You budgeted $265,700 for Salaries out

of your office, there was $297,000 spent, and this year you are budgeting

$255,000. Has there been a reduction in the office in terms of salary person or

is it contractual services not being -

MR. DUTTON: The reduction is attributable to the Parliamentary Secretary's

position. That was a position we had when Mr. Andersen was in that, and we do

not have one at this point.

MR. E. BYRNE: In terms of Transportation and Communications, 1.1.01.03,

there was $40,000 less budgeted this year. Is there any specific reason for

that? There was $130,000 spent last year, and you are budgeting $90,000. Is

there any specific reason, or was there anything last year that was an anomaly

which would have caused the increase that would have been unforeseen or out of

normal?

MR. DUTTON: Well, I guess the spending pattern in that office has been

consistent the last two years but that is as much as Treasury Board has

approved.

CHAIR: That is a great answer.

MR. E. BYRNE: Enough said.

CHAIR: That is as accurate an answer, I guarantee you. He is absolutely

right, too.

MR. E. BYRNE: So it is not that you did not ask for, it is all that you

are going to get.

CHAIR: In other words, it has nothing to do with reality.

Go ahead. Sorry.

MR. E. BYRNE: Well, this is going to be a short meeting this morning.

Section 1.2.01. Executive Support: Appropriations provide for the senior

planning and direction of the Department, including the establishment and

evaluation of policies and objectives. There is an increase in Salaries there.

Has there been an extra position hired there? If so, what position is it?

MR. DUTTON: No. I believe that is attributable to the salary increases.

Of course, percentage increases mean more for the executive because they are

paid relatively more.

MR. E. BYRNE: That is right. Yes, okay.

Section 2.1.01. Aboriginal Affairs. Under that

section it says:

Appropriations provide for the formulation, implementation and administration of

the Province's policies respecting aboriginal peoples.

What would this

section of the department be primarily concerned with? If you

could give me a little more detail, if that is possible.

MR. DUTTON: This is the St. John's branch of our department. It

involves our policy and planning division and land claims division. They are

involved in the negotiation of the Labrador Inuit land claim and self-government

agreement, and the Innu land claim agreement. As well, there are quite a number

of negotiations ongoing related to Innu Reserve creation. We have had to

negotiate a number of agreements pertaining to the federal government assumption

of funding responsibility for programs on reserves and the eventual Innu

takeover of those programs, once they have developed the capacity to do so.

MR. E. BYRNE: This would be the

section within the department that would

have primary responsibility, I would assume, for federal-provincial negotiations

or overruns?

MR. DUTTON: Yes, many of these negotiations would be tripartite involving

Indian Affairs and the Aboriginal group in question.

MR. E. BYRNE: How is the relationship with Indian Affairs?

MR. DUTTON: Well, we try to work cooperatively with them. I guess the

dilemma that we have had for some time is -

MR. E. BYRNE: How are they with you? That is what I am interested in.

MR. DUTTON: I guess the issue has always been that the - the Province

maintains that the federal government has the fiduciary responsibility for

Aboriginal people and that that applies in the Province. We seek to ensure that

they are held to account to take responsibility for those matters.

In terms of the land claims negotiations, there has been a cooperative

approach there to try to work together to resolve issues. A lot of the issues in

the land claims are either federal or provincial, but there are some overlapping

matters that we have a common interest in; as well, to work with them on the

reserve related issues. There have been a lot of complicated negotiations around

that. We have been seeking to reach arrangements where they assume as full

funding responsibility as possible, and we are not always completely successful

in that regard. We continue to have a co-operative approach and we meet

regularly with them.

MR. ANDERSEN: I would just like to say, too, that we have had a great

response when it comes down to the social problems that are faced by the

Aboriginal communities. Every time we have gone to INA, Indian and Northern

Affairs, and Health Canada for additional funds, once we win the case, we have a

pretty good track record. They do usually respond in - I cannot say passionate,

but probably in a positive way.

MR. E. BYRNE: Under the same heading, under Transportation and

Communications, last year we budgeted $330,000, revised or spent $250,000, and

this year you are budgeting again $330,800. Is there any specific reason why you

came under budget? Not that it is a bad thing, mind you, but -

MR. DUTTON: Basically, as the minister alluded to, a lot of the

negotiations do take place in St. John's, where our St. John's staff are

engaged, and that is a saving, but there are a number of meetings that occur in

Nain or Sheshatshiu or Ottawa so there is a continuing need for travel within

that section.

MR. E. BYRNE: Under Professional Services, under the same subhead,

2.1.01.05., last year you spent $100,000 and this year you have budgeted

$193,800, as you did budget last year. Again, do you see the requirement for

professional services that the department may need and, if so, what would they

be?

MR. DUTTON: Sure. I think the major expenditure in that area this year

has been verification of the French translation of the Inuit land claims treaty.

ensure that there is consistency. Unfortunately, we do not have the capacity

within our own department to verify that.

MR. E. BYRNE: Who did you contract to do that? Is that a tendered sort of

piece of business?

MR. DUTTON: It was, and there was a company, Paul Wilkinson and

Associates in Quebec. There were no bids from within the Province, as I recall.

MR. E. BYRNE: That would go out in all the local papers, I guess.

MR. DUTTON: It was, yes, and nationally as well.

MR. E. BYRNE: On Purchased Services, last year you spent $60,000, you had

budgeted $213,800 and you have $213,800 budgeted again. Based upon only spending

$60,000 on Purchased Services, on what do you foresee spending $213,800?

MR. DUTTON: I guess between these two items, Professional Services and

Purchased Services, our major cost this year is going to be related to the

ratification of the Inuit land claims treaty. Under the Agreement in Principle

we have with the Inuit, we had agreed to cost share the ratification costs with

actual vote by LIA members on that, and we are hoping that will occur later this

year.

MR. E. BYRNE: How is that going, by the way?

MR. DUTTON: It is very near to conclusion, and has been for some time. I

guess it is probably taking a little longer than we would like, but, given the

treaty is forever, we do not want to rush it and go in too soon. We are hopeful

that we can resolve the outstanding issues over the next period of time and be

in a position to initial the document this year.

MR. E. BYRNE: Minister, are you in the position at all to speak about any

of those outstanding issues? If you are, fair enough, and if you are not, fair

enough. It is not a loaded question that I am asking. It is just a -

MR. ANDERSEN: We do, on a fairly regular basis. I suppose, being the

member, being the MHA, we - myself and Sean - are there the majority of the

time. We try and liaison too, as best as we can, between the feds and LIA as

well. We are there the whole time, and have been since probably 1996, since I

became a member. We are there most of the time to try and do what is best, I

guess, being a member of government, being a member of LIA, and being the Member

for Torngat Mountains.

MR. E. BYRNE: You have a lot of hats on there.

MR. ANDERSEN: Yes.

MR. E. BYRNE: Under subsection 2.1.03.03., in terms of Transportation and

Communications, again it is just a question that jumps out, nothing serious

obviously, you had budgeted last year $130,000 for Transportation and

Communications, spent $50,000, about 60 per cent of that, and now you have

budgeted $126,000. Again, was there any reason or is it the same sort of answer

that you have provided in other questions?

MR. DUTTON: I guess this is about the amount that has been typically

budgeted each year, and spending has been lower. Typically, this covers the four

quarterly meetings of the committee that oversees the agreement. It involves the

municipalities in the North Coast communities, and federal and provincial

officials, so it has been the same by and large year by year.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Chair, we certainly understand the significance and

importance of this department to the role of government and to the role of

future development of Labrador and its people. With that, I don't think we

have any more questions. If nobody else does, we certainly can move to pass

subheads 1.1.01. through 2.1.03. inclusive.

CHAIR: Thank you, Sir.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01. through 2.1.03. carried.

On motion, Department of Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs, total heads,

carried.

CHAIR: I want to thank the members of the Committee.

Before we go, there is just the moving of the minutes from the last meeting

which was held on April 28, if we could have a motion to move those minutes.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

I want to thank the members of the Committee of their presence here this

morning, and the minister and your assistant deputy minister.

Thank you.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.