Manitoba Hansard — 5 May 1982 (Sitting 48, 32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-48

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PAA YER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Vital): Presenting Petitions ... Reading and Receiving Petitions ... PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. JERRY T. STORIE (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supp ly has adopted certain resolu tions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Radisson, that the Repo rt of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR.

SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports ... Notices of Motion ... Introduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where there are 45 students of Grade 11 standing of the Sisler High School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Brown and the school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for lnkster. There are 45 students from the Neel in High School; this school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources.

On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D.M. (Doug) GOURL AY (Swan River): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and ask him when will the government take a position with respect to the Assessment Review Committee's recommendations? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Munici pal Affairs. HON. A.A. (Pete) ADAM (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Speaker, in respons e to the honourable member's question, I could advise him that the member - my staff is now reviewing the Assessment Review Report and will be reporting back to me after they have completed their study. It is my intention to perhaps appoint a Legislative Committee to hold hearings intersessionally to dia logue with the public of Manitoba on the implications of the recommendations. In view of that, I am unable to give the honourable member a definite time as to when the government will take a position until per haps after those meetings have been completed.

Then we'll be able to make a decision whether or not the recommendations are acceptable. MR. GOURL AY: Mr. Speaker, the Assessment Review Committee has already taken some two years or more to consult with the people and the municipal officials of Manitoba and I am wondering if the Mi_nister has had the opportunity or will be planning on consulting with the Municipal Advisory Committee with respect to the recommendations that have already been brought forth by the Assessment Review Committee. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, we hope to meet with many groups, local government districts, the UMM, the Manitoba Union of Urban Associations and other interested people in Manitoba to inform them of the implications of the recommendations and how it will affect them. That is what we want, to have an ongoing dialogue with them and until such time as we can have some feedback on what the implications are of the recommendations, it's not the intention of the gov ernment to do anything. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.W. J. (Ge rry) ME RCIER (St. Norbert): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. Could the Minister indicate whether he will be introducing legislation this year, either at this Session or at a Session this fall, which would continue the freeze on assessment passed the end of this year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Munici pal Affairs. MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, I will be introducing legisla tion to extend the freeze at this Session. MR. ME RCIER: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister would indicate how long the continued freeze would last. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, the recommendations are that the freeze be extended and once we introduce the legislation, the member will see what the legislation is. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Gladstone. MRS . CHAR LOTTE OLESON (G ladstone): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. In view of the difficulties being experienced by municipal governments with regard 2209

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 to large dollar values of taxes in arrears, and in view of the fact that municipal officials have asked for change in the penalties for arrears which are levied, does the Minister plan to exercise his right to change the inter est rate which can be charged on tax arrears? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Munici pal Affairs. MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to do that at this Session. We are, however, reviewing this question. The information we have is that the arrears may not be attributable only to the high interest rates that prevail at the present time.

My understanding is that the City of Winnipeg have been able to collect 95 percent of the taxes and it doesn't appear to be a major problem. However, we will be monitoring this, Mr. Speaker, and if there is a need, we will look at it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): I direct my question, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister in charge of Co-o peratives and would ask him if he could confirm that the Co-op store in Brandon will be closing. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minister of Co-oper atives. MR. ADAM: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, it is my understanding that at an annual meeting last night, they have decided to close the operation. This has been in the works for some time, I might add. It was decided by the Co-oper ative group there that they feel area development will provide some definite benefits, rather than operate the way they have in the past. I might add, Mr. Speaker, that they attribute their problems again to high interest rates and a high debt load. Of course, Mr. Speaker, Co-o peratives are just as vulnerable to high interest rate policy as any pri vate sector.

They feel that because of the fact they have a high debt load, they felt it was better to close the operation and some of those profitable parts of the Co-o perative will be absorbed by other Co operatives in the area. MR. BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister could inform the House as to what is going to happen to the affil iated stores at Souris and Wawanesa. MR. ADAM: My understanding at this point in time is that they hope to maintain services to members in the bulk petroleum service station at Agro as well as exist ing branches in Souris and Wawanesa.

That is their hope at this time, but I would inform the honourable member that the Brandon Co-op has been under the management and control of Federated Co-op for some time. MR. BANMAN: A su ppl ementary question, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the Minister could inform the House as to the potential losses for the shareholders as far as their investment is concerned. In other words, are they going to sustain some losses or is there another body that will be picking up the losses on the closure of this Co-operative? MR. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, it is my understanding that the members will not lose their shares, but they may lose the equity that they have built up over the years, but not the shares. The share capital that they have put in, I understand will be paid, but there will be some equity that has been accumulated that they may lose. MR. BANMAN: Another question, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister.

As the Member for Turtle Mountain has said, the shareholders will probably find some solace in that they can paper their walls with their share certificates, but I would like to ask the Minister as to what impact this will have on the employment at that particular facility. In other words, what do they anticipate the loss of job opportunity will be because of the closing of this Co-ope rative? MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, I don't have the exact number of employees at the consumer Co-op in Brandon, but I understand it is approximately six people that are involved.

I'm not sure whether they will all lose their employment because of the closure, but that's my understanding that there's about one half dozen people, but I can check that out to get the exact information. I don't have that at the present time. MR. BANMAN: To the same Minister, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the Minister could inform the House whether or not he has been advised of some other consumer Co-o peratives who are facing financial difficulty and are asking for departmental assistance in either clos ing or mergering with another Co-o perative. MR. ADAM: Not to my knowledge, not at the moment as far as I know.

I haven't received any other informa tion outside of the Brandon consumers' Co-op at this point in time. 2210 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. BRIAN RANSON (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Can the Minister advise whether or not he has received a request from the Union of Municipalities to allow municipalities to set the interest rate on tax arrears? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Munici pal Affairs. MR.

ADAM: I believe that the Union of Manitoba Municipalities have - there have been resolutions at their annual meeting to that effect and I have just answered a question just a few minutes ago on this subject matter, Mr. Speaker, and that we are looking at that at the present time. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Agriculture. Some days ago, I asked the Minister of Agriculture if he had any knowledge of how many farmers in the province might be having

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 difficulty in getting operating credit this spring. I wonder if the Minister could answer that question now. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. BILL UR USKI (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, we don't have actual numbers of farmers having difficulty but we do and are receiving calls. We do have the program in place in terms of the Loan Guarantee Program under MACC. We are now in the process of having discussions to extend that program to the Co op Credit Society.

So rather than dealing with indi vidual credit unions, the entire discussions that are under way are to see whether or not the entire credit society can be treated in the same way as other finan cial institutions so that short-term operating capital could be advanced in the same way as the guarantees are to the banking institutions. We are having those discussions and we hope that an agreement can be reached whereby those services can also be provided by the credit unions in the Prov ince of Manitoba. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, has the Minister made any effort, either through meeting with the banks or lending institutions, to assess how many farmers are unable to get operating credit this spring through any of the programs that are now in place? MR. URUSK I: Mr. Speaker, we do know, we are, and have had meetings; staff are continuously having meetings with the bank institutions in the various regions to assess and to be able to better determine where the problem areas are.

We have approved funds through MACC to attempt to even deal through loan consolidation and those other areas to assist farmers, but we do know that MACC is not the vehicle that is able to provide the type of short-term credit in the quick way that is required. That's why we have used and continue to use the guarantees that are available to the financial institutions whereby we will guarantee the loans for short-term credit. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, there are I believe record numbers of farm sales taking place this spring. There are farmers that are unable to obtain operating credit.

The Minister has not paid out any money through his program for which some people with gross sales under $70,000 might qualify. What does the Minister plan to do for those farmers who are grossing over $70,000 a year, who have been grossing over $70,000 a year, and will not be able to get operating credit this sp ring to put in their crop? What advise does the Minister give to those farmers? MR . UR USKI: Mr. Speaker, the Province of Manitoba, we said, is not able to assist everyone under the pro gram, the program that we announced.

There are in the neighborhood of approximately between 10 0 and 200 applications that are in the process of being approved and some have been approved. I don't have the exact number here with me but there were, as I mentioned the other day, 200 applications in the pro cess of being approved. In terms of the farming corn- munity, farmers who require operating capital, there are the normal lending institutions.

We have the gua rantee program; we hope that the financial institu tions would avail themselves to the guarantees that are available and that process could go on so that with the backing of the province adequate funding could be made available to farmers. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the Minister speaks of guarantees. The farmers of this province were given a guarantee by the First Minister that no farm would be lost as a consequence of high interest rates. Is the Minister now telling us that for those farmers who gross over $70,000 a year that guarantee is invalid? MR. UR USKI: Mr.

Speaker, the member makes an assertion that everyone's problems in terms of agri culture are solely as a result of high interest rates. We are attempting to deal with those financial difficulties as best we can. I don't believe that anyone on this side has ever promised a panacea that everyone will be assisted regardless of the financial difficulties that they are in. We recognize and I believe the pheno menon is not new that agricultural incomes have been declining overthe last number of years. Those incomes have been declining.

We are very concerned and I'm sure the honourable members on the other side are concerned and should have been concerned but, Mr. Speaker, they should not have stood in this House and said that they sup port the Federal Government with respect to their high interest rate policy, that they sup port the Federal Government's energy policy, the world prices of energy that we should go to world prices as they did. We did not sup port that kind of policy and we did not make those kinds of statements, Mr. Speaker.

We did put in an emergency program of limited relief and we are attempting to assist as many people as we can on the limited budget that program does have, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Member for Lakeside. 2211 MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Communications. Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister can assure northern television viewers and indeed several of his own backbenchers, namely, the Member for Flin Flon and the Member for Thompson, that the resources of the Government of Manitoba will be available to the northern television viewers in any threatened action that is being suggested by the CRTC with respect to curtailing the signals that the northern viewers now enjoy. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Com munity Services. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Brandon East): Mr.

Speaker, without any hesitation I can give the hon ourable member and the House generally that assurance. MR. ENNS : Mr. Speaker, I particularly asked for that assurance because it was just the other day that the

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 Attorney-General of this province made a point of reminding my leader that under no circumstances would he intervene on behalf of the residents of Mani toba when merchants were being prosecuted for using the imperial measurement system, for instance, in the selling of carpets because that was the law. My question is, there is some question as to whether or not the CRTC has the law behind them with respect to this question.

Does this assurance mean that the resource of the province to the extent that they will pick up court costs to fight CRTC to retain the pickup of American signal on these networks? Is that the assurance that the Minister is giving? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, as well the member knows, there are various legal views on which level of gov ernment has what jurisdiction in the case of receipt of signals from satellites.

I believe the honourable member is familiar with that, so it is not a parallel situation, but I can advise the members that my staff have been in touch with the Secretary-General of the CRTC in Ottawa and we are advised that this is a usual routine letter that goes out to licensees who are not complying with the conditions of their licenses. I, for one, do not expect any legal action to be taken by CRTC. In a sense, I think we are dealing with an issue that may not come to that point. I would hope that it would not come to that point, but I would also point out, Mr.

Speaker, that this government has made a clear commitment to assist the northerners to obtain equal service, or service as diverse as that obtained in Southern Manitoba. To that extent. we have taken that position and we have moved in that direction. I might also add, Mr. Speaker, that we understand that Cancom, which is a Canadian satellite group, is applying for permission by the CRTC to carry the three-pl us-one network services; namely, ABC, NBC, CBS and the Public Broadcasting System.

So when that occurs which could occur, I don't know exactly when it will occur but they are applying and if they get early approval, it could be that a Canadian satellite will be offering these additional American services within a year. That's a possibility and I would suspect then that our problem would disappear. MR. ENNS : I thank the Minister for that answer. I take it that the Government of Manitoba will stand behind the current operators in Thompson, in Flin Flon and Western Manitoba to enable them to continue the present service. Mr.

Speaker, I have an additional question to the Minister of Energy and Mines. My question to the Minister is, has he or his government been made aware of any current layoffs within the Tantalum Min ing operation? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. WILSON PARASIUK (Transcona): I will have to take the question as notice, Mr. Speaker. MR. EN NS: I thank the honourable Minister for that answer. I would have hoped, of course, inasmuch as that Manitoba is a major partner-in Tantalum that the Minister would be aware of if in fact layoffs were occurring in that operation.

However, I respect the Minister's answer. My other question is to the Minister of Agriculture. Mr. Speaker, just this morning, one of the few bright news announcements in Canada was announced; namely, the successful conclusion of a major mega project, the sale of some $2 billion worth of wheat to Red China. I remind all members that agriculture is still the biggest mega project going in this country, particularly at a time when other mega projects seem to be failing. I would have thought that perhaps the Minister of Agriculture would have had some com ment or indeed even a statement in this House.

I would ask the Minister whether he has any comment about the successful conclusion of that mega project sale. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. URU SKI: Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable member for raising that question. I am pleased to note that at least we are not looking at the colour of the political stripe of the country or that grain embargoes for the question of ... -(I nterjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR . URUS KI: . . . that food should not be used as a weapon against other countries and that farmers of Western Canada and indeed Manitoba will be able to ship.

We hope that the shipments, the transportation system, will be able to handle this but the question will still remain of course, will the prices that will be received be adequate enough to cover the cost of production?

The other question, of course, that has to be raised and that farmers should be reconsidering and should look into the future in terms of the discussions that they had of a year or two ago with respect to the grain that they do now have on their farms, whether the cash advance program should be expanded or the suggestions that were made by the Wheat Board Advisory Group that the market assurance plan should be considered by farmers so that needed cash flow could flow to farmers for grain that is on the farm?

At least, that program should be reconsidered and exam ined very carefully, rather than throwing cold water on it as was done by members opposite during their former government. 2212 Mr. Speaker, while I am on my feet, I would like to answer several questions that were posed to me, one yesterday by the Member for Emerson. He asked me questions with respect to the BIA Program, the Beef Income Assurance Program.

He asked me how many producers were still on the program and I would like to, for the record, indicate that there are still 16 active contract holders whose contracts do not expire until March 31 , 19 83, and there are 13 0 expir ed contract holders whose contracts have just ended. He asked me how much money was paid out in 19 81 un der that program, Mr. Speaker. He should remember that it was his government's policy in not exercising their option under the contract and indicating to farmers that they owed them money when, in fact, that wasn't the contract basis. So no monies, in fact, were paid

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 back, but monies were collected from other programs to be put into those accounts that were sup posedly owed by those farmers; so there was no money paid out in 19 81. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirk field Park. MRS. GE RRI E HAMMON D (K irkfield Park): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education. In light of of the $244,280 offered to the St. Boniface School Division to keep schools open, this includes 77,200 for Van Belleghem School and 68,800 for Pre ndergast School, how much money has the Minister offered to the St.

James-A ssiniboia School Division to keep Columbus School open? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minis ter of Education. HON. MAUREE N! HEMP HILL (Logan): Mr. Speaker, I have not offered any money to any school division in the province to keep schools open. What the member opposite is referring to is a special grant that is being made available for this year only to help school divi sions who are faced with school closures to help them offset the increase costs of school plans should they wish that help.

To date, no school division, although there are three or four contemplating closures, no school divi sion has yet applied for that grant and no school division has received any money under that category. St. Boniface School Division did submit to me a pro posal com municating what the y believe their increased costs were to keep the plants open. I have reviewed those figures with my department and communicated back to them that we accept their fig ures and that if they wish to apply that they are free to do so. I also met with the St. James School Board about two weeks ago, Mr.

Speaker, recognizing that they were also a school division faced with possible school closures and I communicated the supp ort that would be available to school divisions for this year only until we do the Educational Finance Review. My under standing is that the St. James School Board is making their decisions to close schools not just on economic reasons, Mr. Speaker. There are three reasons that school divisions are closing schools: the money, program and declining enrolment - loss of students. I am offering very limited supp ort, Mr.

Speaker, in a very limited way to help offset some of the increased costs if that will help them with their decision, but if it's for program reasons, for declining enrolment rea sons, I am not able to do anything about those issues. The St. James School Board communicated to me that they are closing for program reasons and there fore I am not expecting an application from them since money does not seem to be their problem. MRS. HAMMO ND: Mr. Speaker, I am amazed thatthe Minister would suggest that money is not a school division's problem.

The Minister well knows that every school division worth their salt would only close their school, not because of just money, but program. My question to the Minister is, can she assure the people of St. James-Ass iniboia that we will receive the same consideration and funding that she has given the St. Boniface School Division? MRS. HEMPHILL: The school divisions will receive the same consideration, Mr. Speaker, should they wish to come and talk to me or approach me for supp ort. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. AL MACKLING (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, the other day, the Honourable Member for Emerson asked me whether or not there had been any change in policy in respect to hiring, particularly at St. Malo Provincial Park. I indicated to him that there had been none to my knowledge and I wish to con.firm that I have discussed with my staff the situation that had arisen there. There were two positions that required campground attendants. Historically, during the entire previous administration these two positions had been filled by local resi dents. The policy remains unchanged.

My concern is and continues to be that where there is an opportunity for student hiring, we look at that. However, we are not going to discrimi nate against long-s tanding practice of hiring local residents either, so we are trying to be fair. Apparently a couple of students did approach someone in the St. Malo Park or someone involved in decision-making there and gained the impression that there were openings. That is not the case. The one person that was rehired was someone that had worked for Natural Resources for some time and it was merely a rehiring.

The other position was a local person and it was persuant to continuing practice in that department. It was no change in policy in respect to student hiring. We are concerned to obtain as much student employ ment as possi ble throughout our system. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. GARY FILMON (Tuxedo): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

I note that by Order-i n-Cou ncil earlier this year the Minister has made a grant of $8, 000 to the Community Income Tax Service and by Or der-in- Council passed Apr il 21, 19 82, the Minister has made a grant of $50,000 to the Community Consu mer Credit Counselling of Win nipeg. I also note from Government News Release of November, 19 81 , that the Minister is listed as being a member of the Board of Directors of these two organ izations. My question is, is he still a member of the board of these organizations? 2213 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consu mer and Corporate Affairs. HON.

EUGENE KOS TYRA (Se ven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, I resigned from the Board of Directors on November 30th of last year. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Sturgeon Creek.

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 MR . J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labour. I wonder if the Minister could confirm the report that was given on the radio this morning by Mr. McKenzie, the MP for Winnipeg-St. James, that the Aerospace Technology Centre which was to come to Manitoba, and was recommended to come to Manitoba, will not be coming to Manitoba as the report specified or recommended. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. VIC SCHRO EDER (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I have never confirmed anything that Mr.

McKenzie has said before, I cannot confirm that particular statement now. I can say that my latest information is there are some suggestions within the Federal Government that the site which we all wish would come to Win nipeg and are encouraging the Federal Government to bring to Winnipeg, and obviously these sugge s tions come from down east, that parts of the training centre would be in Quebec, parts in Ontario and a

part in Manitoba. We certainly are urging the Federal Gov ernment and our local members of Parliament, espe cially from the governing party, to stick with the origi nal proposal. The suggestion was that Winnipeg is the place where the program can be most useful and we certainly hope that the Federal Government will go along with the project that makes the most sense rather than with the project which is politically the most advantageous for them. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I am really not inter ested in who the Minister confirms statements of or not.

I would like to ask the Minister if the member or an MP from Manitoba can receive an answer from Mr. Axworthy's office indicating that it would not be com ing to Manitoba, I am wondering, if the Minister of Labour has had contact with the Federal Government or the Minister from Manitoba who is Minister of the Federal Government, why he hasn't been given the same information. Mr. Speaker, if the Minister believes that breaking this technical centre into three is good for Manitoba, he is wrong because there will be no structure if it is broken into three.

Has the Minister had conversations or discussions regarding this aerospace technology in the last two or three days with the federal people? MR. SCHROEDER: I have not in the last two or three days personally had discussions. The latest I have seen is within the last two or three days from my department information that they have gathered from the Federal people.

I agree with the honourable member that it would not be appropriate to have the centre split up into three sections and that is why I said our preference still is that the Federal Govern ment not use a politically expedient solution, but rather stay with the solution which would be benefi cial to all of the people of Canada and certainly would have some spi n-offs for Manitoba. I will cer tainly check to see whether a final decision has been made. It may be that the information received by Mr. McKenzie is wrong and I certainly must say I hope that it is wrong. 2214 MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism. The Minister on April 21s t undertook to follow-up the process regarding the purchasing of the kitchen equipment at Gull Harbour Lodge on Hecia Island. There was some question as to the procedures of the tenders being put out; there was some question as to the procedures to the opening of the tenders and there was some question as to whether it was being given to somebody that would not be manufacturing the products in Manitoba. Can the Minister bring us up-to-date on that inves tigation at the present time? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, that matter referred to a development in the part for which I take responsibil ity and I have been questioned in respect to that mat ter as well. I am in a position to advise the honourable member and, through him, this House that I have sent a full letter of explanation to the company that regis tered the complaint, including particulars that the items they were complaining about, the requirement in the tenders of particular equipment being other than Canadian made.

There was flexibility provided for that and it was quite rightly brought to the atten tion of the architects and those responsible for the contract arrangements, but despite the flexibility pro vided in the tendering process, it was nonetheless non-Canadian equipment that I think was used in the tenders, including the tender of the company that complained. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Transportation.

About two weeks ago, the Minister of Transportation undertook to react posi tively to requests concerning transfer of abandoned rail rights-of-way. I wonder if the Minister can advise the House if he has in fact taken care of those requests in a positive fashion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Gov ernment Services. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, the other day I did respond to a similar question and in that response, I indicated that I had instructed the staff to process all of the outstanding applications. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consu mer and Corporate Affairs. MR.

KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Speaker, earlier in the ques tion period, I responded to a question from the Hon ourable Member for Tuxedo and I just realized that I wasn't accurate in my response. I had stated that I had resigned from the Board of Directors of the Community Income Tax Service on November 30th and I did resign from a number of boards at that time. However, I ceased to be a member of the Community Income Tax Service Board in 19 80,

Wednesday, 5 May, 19 82 at which time I didn't stand for re-election to the Board of Directors. I apologize for the error. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. ME RCIER: Mr. Speaker, on Friday last, I directed a question either to the Acting Minister of Highw ays or the Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Minister of Consumer Affairs took it as notice. But in view of the High way Minister being here, Mr.

Speaker, I would ask him if he has an answer to that question regarding the exasperation to the traffic congestion that is being caused on the Perimeter Highw ay by the Department of Highw ays' construction program at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Gov ernment Services. MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I received notice of that question only this morning and I am dealing with it at the present time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Agriculture. MR. UR USKI: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, about a week ago, the Honourable Member for Morris asked me a ques tion as to how many hearings did the Manitoba Mar keting Council hold in respect to matters relating to milk. I should mention to the honourable member, for the record, that there were three hearings in effect on that application. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS (Cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions having expired, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 26 students of Grade 2 standing from the Balmoral Hall School. These students are under the direction of Mrs. Kay and Mrs. Hanson. This school is in the con stituency of the Honourable Member for Wolseley. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. PROCEDURAL STATEMENTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Orde rs of the Day, I have a brief procedural statement to read to the House.

On Thursday, April the 29th, two points of order were raised by members in the House and were taken under advisement by the Chair. The first point was raised by the Honourable Member for St. Johns who took exception to the statement by the Honourable Member for Robin-Rus sell that he, the Honourable Member for St. Johns , was "in con flict with the Attorney-General." Beauchesne's Citation, 322, says in part, "It has been formally ruled by Speakers that a statement by a member respecting himself and particularly within his knowledge must be accepted." Since the Honourable Member for St.

Johns rose in his place and made a statement respecting himself, he was clearly correct in doing so and the House must accept the statement. The second point involved an allegation by the Honourable Member for Thompson that remarks by the Honourable Member for Roblin-R ussell were unparliamentary. In reviewing Hansard, I find the fol lowing words attributed to the Honourable Member for Roblin-R ussell. "I think he's a disgrace to the par liamentary system.

He's a disgrace to his consti tuency and he should not be allowed to sit as Deputy Speaker in this House after what he said this after noon." These remarks were made in referring to the Honourable Member for Flin Flon. The statement made by the Honourable Memberfor Roblin-R ussell raises two issues. First, the use of the word "disgrace" when referring to another member. Although Beauchesne does not prohibit the word "disgrace" specifically, I find that the unP.arliamen tary ph rase "disgracing the House" in Citation 320 is close enough to the phrase objected to as to render it unparliamentary.

Secondly, when the Honourable Member for Roblin-R ussell makes reference to the Honourable Member for Flin Flon as a Deputy Speaker and his fitness to sit in this House, the Honourable Member for Roblin-R ussell can be deemed to be reflecting on the Chair, since the Deputy Speaker does from time to time preside over the House.

Even if I could agree with the Honourable Member for Roblin-R ussell that the remarks of the Honourable Member for Flin Flon con stituted an attack on the parliamentary system, the remarks of the Honourable Member for Roblin-R ussell woul d st il l not be jus ti fied and woul d be unparliamentary. In conclusion, I regret I must find the remarks of the Honourable Member for Roblin-Rus sell to be unparli amentary on two counts. I feel sure that the honour able member, as an experienced parliamentarian, would not wish to leave unparliamentary words on the record.

May I sugge st to the Honourable Member for Roblin-R ussell that he withdraw the remarks made. Since the honourable member does not rise to speak on this issue I must remind him of what is likely to happen if he continues with his silence. The Honourable Member for Roblin-R ussell. 2215 MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin-Russell): Thank you for your judgment. My comments still stand on the record. MR. SPEAKER: May I formally ask the Honourable Member for Roblin-R ussell to withdraw the offending remarks? If the honourable member does not wish to do so, then I regret that I must name the Honourable Mr.

Wally McKenzie for ignoring or defying the remarks of the House. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. ROL AND PENNER (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, in view of your ruling and your naming of the member, I do move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines, that the named member do leave the House for the duration of this sitting. MOTION presented.

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? Those in favour, please say "aye." The matter is not debatable. Does the Honourable Minister of Health wish to raise a point of order? POINT OF ORDER HON. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): I don't want to debate your ruling, Mr. Speaker, it's just that I want to bring to your attention - I think you missed it and I think the House Leader missed it - I distinctly heard the member say, before the decision before the vote, that he would like to withdraw, so I would just bring that to your attention. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry to the same point of order. MR. l.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I think what is dictated by your ruling this afternoon has taken place. There may be some misunderstand ing about the last remarks of my colleague, the Hon ourable Member for Roblin-Rus sell. I think he was intending to indicate that he was leaving the Chamber, not that he was withdrawing the remarks that had been brought under question. I think we would want to examine that with him, Mr.

Speaker, but at this point in time I think that he has concurred in your ruling and removed himself from the Chamber. MR. SPEAKER: That is my understanding. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. RANSOM: Yeas and nays, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. Order please. The question before the House, it's moved the Hon our able Attorne y-G en eral and seconded by the Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines that the Member for Roblin-Rus sell be sus pended for the balance of the sitting. Those in favour of the motion, please rise.

A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS Messrs. Adam, Anstett, Ashton, Bu cklaschuk, Car roll, Corrin, Cowan, Desjardins, Mrs. Dodick, Messrs. Doern, Ms Dolin, Messrs. Evans, Eyler, Harper, Mrs. Hemph ill, Messrs. Kostyra, Lecuyer, Mackling, Para siuk, Pawley, Penner, Ms Phillips, Messrs. Plohman, Santos, Schroeder, Scott, Mrs. Smith, Messrs. Storie, Uruski, Uskiw. NAYS Messrs. Banman, Brown, Enns, Filmon, Gourlay, Mrs. Hammond, Messrs. Johnston, Kovnats, Mercier, Nordman, Mrs. Oleson, Messrs. Ransom, Sherman. MR. CLERK, Jack Reeves: Yeas, 30; Nays 13. MR. SPEAKER: The motion is carried.

The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. ROL AND PENNER (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, before calling Orders of the Day, I'm sure the members opposite would like to join me and the members of this side in welcoming back to his seat, the Honour able Member for Springfield. Mr. Speaker, would you please call for second read ing, Bill No. 19 , in the name of the Honourable Minis ter of Consumer and Corporate Affairs? ORDERS OF THE DAY SECOND READING BILL NO. 19 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE LANDLORD AND TENANT ACT MR. KOSTYRA presented Bill No. 19 ,

An Act to amend The Landlord and Tenant Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Consu mer and Corporate Affairs. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, the primary purpose of this bill is. to delete from the Landlord and Tenant's Act all references to the mediation and arbitration of rent increase protests. It does also include, however, several other provisions that are more or less of a housekeeping nature. Five sections of the bill pertain to the giving and servicing of notices under the Act.

County court judges have pointed out that the requirements for serving notice considerably under The Landlord and Tenant Act as it now stands and have recommended that the method of service be standardized throughout the bill. This recommenda tion has been accepted and is embodied in this bill. 2216 In preparing The Residential Rent Regulation Act, an improved definition of rent was developed. For consistency sake the improved definition is being placed in The Landlord and Tenant Act in substitution for the existing definition in the Act.

Similarly, the bill provides for clarification of the sections dealing with the giving of notice for an increase in rent by a land lord. These two will be consistent with the new provi sions and The Residential Rent Regulation Act. From time to time, the Rentalsman has expressed difficulty in obtaining payment of security deposits on behalf of tenants. Problems sometimes arise because a landlord in succession by sale or foreclosure may deny responsibil ity for the security deposit. Further more, some landlords refuse a delayed payment for an inordinate period of time.

Two sections of this bill provide clarification of landlord responsi bilities for payment and a method of dealing with landlords who are in default of security deposit payments. From time to time, landlords have protested the requirement for storage of abandoned goods for a period of three months as too excessive a period of time. Some have asked that this be reduced to two

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 weeks and others to one month. We have considered these requests but feel that such a sharp reduction would be detrimental to the interests of absent tenants. We therefore propose that the time limit be reduced from three months to two months. Finally, Mr. Speaker, the re is a provision to clarify the period within which a landlord must give a tenant notice to enter premises. The Act currently provides that notice must be given at least 24 hours in advance of the entry.

In some cases, however, landlords have been giving notice merely that they intend to enter the premises at some future date and as long as they do not enter until after a lapse of 24 hours after giving notice, they are technically within their rights to sub sequently enter. It is proposed that this provision be clarified to provide for notice of intention to enter will not be given more than four to eight hours, nor less than 24 hours prior to entering the premises. Mr.

Speaker, aside from the deletions of the refer ence to the mediation and arbitration of rent increase provisions, all of the other amendments are consist ent with the ongoing efforts to improve the Act and as experience dictates and thus improve landlord and tenant relations. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Norbert, that debate be adjourned on this bill. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. PENNER: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs, whose day it is, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supp ly to be granted to He r Majesty with the Honour able Member for Flin Flon in the Chair for the Depart ment of Finance and the Member for The Pas in the Chair for the Department of Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR.

PENNER: Since there is to be by agreement no Private Members' Hour, I would now move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health, that the House stand adjourned until 2 o'clock tomorrow afternoon with the understanding, of course, that committees will now proceed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. RANSOM: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I wonder how that can be done once the House has voted to go into committee, how we can now adjourn the House when we are sitting in committee? MR. PENNER: By leave. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, if the House Leader is asking for leave to undertake this unusual procedure, then I guess we'll grant leave. MR. PENNER: I'm asking for leave to undertake this unusual procedure. MR. SPEAKER: By leave, it is moved by the Honour able Attorney General, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs, that the House do now adjourn. MO TION presented and carried and the House adjourned and stands adjourned until 2 p.m. tomor row afternoon (Th ursday). CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - MANITOBA HOUSING AND RENEWAL CORPORATION MR.

CHAIRMAN, Phil Eyler (River East): This com mittee will come to order. We are considering the Estimates of Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corpo ration. Mr. Minister, do you have an open ing statement? MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have. First of all, I would like to indicate my pleasure at being the Minister reponsible for the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation. I have been a Minister for a very brief time, but have come to appreciate that this is a vehicle for government initiative.

That is very impor tant in our society and one that has a great deal of responsibility in respect to the program field that is open to it.

Let me say, first of all, that the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation Budget Estimates reflect a continuation of certain involvements committed dur ing the tenure of the previous administration in respect of our participation in the Core Area Initia tives Program and support for nonprofit housing activities, as well as the expansion of certain other program involvement such as the Critical Home Repair Program. 2217 The largest portion of the operating Budget is, of course, related to the ongoing subsidy costs asso ciated with the operation of the province's 12,000 units of low rental housing stock, comprising in fact almost half of MHRC's budget.

We are pleased to report in this regard that the increase in the operating subsidy Budget is well within the overall rate of infla tion that the province is exper iencing; not to say that inflation rate is a good thing. In part, this has been accomplished by good management practices, par ticularly as a result of ongoing energy conservation retrofitting efforts at the same time the province's housing stock continues to be maintained to the highest reasonable standards. Provision has been made in this Budget for partici pation in certain programs committed under the Core Area In itiatives Agreement.

These include contribu-

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 lions under the Community Improvement Program toward renewal projects in various neighbourhoods in a designated core area as a continuation of initia tive taken under the previous Neighbourhood Improve ment Programs for which Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation funding is no longer available. Also, the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corpora tion is now finalizing programmatic detail associated with the provision of interest rate reductions for hous ing rehabilitation loans in the core area for which a more complete announcement should be forthcom ing shortly.

Provision has also been made in this Budget for expanded activity under the Critical Home Repair Program; a program which had been rendered almost totally inactive in recent years. Some $3 million has been provided in the Budget for this program on the basis of which it is anticipated that some 2,500 or more pensioners and low income families will be assisted to have critical repairs done to their homes. At the same time, it is expected that the resulting activity will provide a needed boost to our smaller sized construction repair firms.

Further to the extent that the current budgetary allocation is inadequate to meet demands, we will be prepared to ensure that sufficient additional funding is made available. Of course, budgetary provision is also made for continued assistance to low income persons renting and privately owned accommodation under the Shel ter Allowance Programs. Currently, some 3,000 pen sioners and 1, 000 low income families are receiving assistance. Staff is currently reviewing measures to update program criteria and generally enhance the program's effectiveness.

However, the serious prob lem with the Shelter Allowance Programs is that they can only be effective in terms of both economical subsidy costs and a high quality standard of accom modation comparable to our own social housing stock if there continues to be an adequate supply of housing stock, as has been the case in recent years. This situation now appears to be changing.

Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation is projecting a consistently tightening vacancy rate in coming years and given the prevailing high interest rates, the pri vate billing sector has indicated that they will be hard pressed to respond to increased demand pressures. That, in turn, means that the construction industry may continue to be under-uti lized in this province. We are prepared to take steps within our limited means to alleviate this situation.

However, the fundamental problem will not be alleviated until Ottawa abandons its wrong-he aded interest rate policy which is throt tling the economy of this country. One measure we are proceeding with is the creation of a provincial nonprofit housing entity which will enable us to fully take advantage of CMHC funding to foster housing construction activity. A measure, I might add, that was approved by the previous Board of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation and recommended to the previous Minister.

I would stress here that this step will entail no additional staf fing, but rather the simple creation of a legal vehicle that will enable us to take advantage of full CMHC funding. This is particularly critical to ensure that some family housing units are built in our larger cen tres, since none has been committed for construction since CMHC ended its financing for the Public Hous ing Program in 19 78 and private nonprofit groups have only been interested in developing senior citizen housing.

Consequently, some lengthy waiting lists for family housing have accumulated, particularly in Brandon and Selkirk and of course in Winnipeg, where it is our intention to initiate the first develop ments utilizing the nonprofit vehicle. In addition, we are also looking at measures the province can take to stimulate private construction, all of which centre around the interest rate question and a clearer understanding of what measures the Federal Government is taking to provide new building initiatives and incentives which we do not have to this point.

Our considerations are also related to stimulating activity on the new home ownership side and we con tinue to maintain an open line of communication with our home building industry to that end. However, I must stress that the problems and financial implica tions involved are of a complex nature and that we are being suitably cautious in our approach. However, we hope to have the relevant programming in place before too long.

As you know, we have also initiated a program of assistance to homeowners renewing their mortgages for whom their new burden of payments, interest and taxes exceed 30 percent of their income. We antici pate by the end of the program period, between 3,000 and 8,000 households may be in receipt of this assist ance. The wide variance in estimated take-up is a function of what interest rate movements may be dur ing the course of 19 82 and 19 83.

Admittedly, this program will not provide for a general measure of interest rate relief for all homeowners expe riencing increasing in their housing costs as a result of mort gage renewals at high interest rates.

However, to do so would cost a far greater amount of money to achieve a questionable effect when the magnitude of our deficit situation is taken into account, along with the fact that 30 percent of income is widely recog nized to be an equitable standard for housing affor dability purposes. 2218 Again, however, the fundamental issue to be resolved here is with the Federal Government in terms of its interest rates policy. The province, particularly given its financial limitations, can only seek to protect our weaker citizens from the effects of that policy. I might say also, Mr.

Chairman, that I have had the opportunity of meeting industry spokesmen in the housing field. They've indicated a degree of co operativeness and genuine public interest in the prob lems that we share in the housing market; that is certainly refreshing. I have had indications tha t members of the industry are anxious to demonstrate to me and show me various types of housing, new initiatives in housing, that could be considered in remote and northern areas. There seems to be within the industry a real hunger for joint participation with government to satisfy the demands that exist in the housing field.

So I believe that despite the fact that the industry is in a crisis and there are needs that these challenges will be met, they may not be met in the time and in the fashion that most people would desire, but given our limited financial situation or limited financial ability to

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 respond in any very massive way, we are nevertheless concerned to do as much as we can to provide sound housing stock for the people of this province. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Would the committee like to provide some guidance on how we are to proceed. Should it be clause by clause? MR. MACKLING: Page by page. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. FIL MON: Mr. Chairman, if the Minister will accept, I would propose to deal with the Estimates as an entire entity. If he will give me and my collegues the leeway to ask questions on anything and everything, we will then just simply pass the one Item, (

a) and (b), bang and be over with. MR. MACKLING: It's acceptable to me, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: It's agreed then. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, in previous years, we used to supply to the committee a list of the pro grams that the MHRC were working with or on, or involved in and the amounts of money that have been allocated to each program. Is that available? MR. MACKLING: I'll just check with my staff. I don't know what the practice was in the past, Mr. Chairman, so maybe we could get copies made, say 20-30 copies.

In the meantime, perhaps we could deal with any general areas and we'll get the statement to you, Frank. I shouldn't be so informal - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll proceed then in a general manner until the handouts have arrived. The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could begin by indicating firstly, is it my impression that he has replaced the entire Board of Directors of the Corporation since the fall election. MR. MACKLING: I believe that is the case, yes. Yes, I'm certain that's the case. MR. FILM ON: Mr.

Chairman, I have before me a news release giving the names and backgrounds of some of the new members. One thing struck me about one of the new members of the Board who is a tenant relation worker with the Winnipeg Regional Housing Authority. I wonder, given the relationship between MHRC and the Winnipeg Regional Housing Author ity, whether or not there was a potential conflict of interest in that appointment. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I suppose potential conflicts of interest exist in a broad spectrum because it is hard to remove potential conflicts of interest.

In respect to the person involved, it's quite true that person is an employee of the Winnipeg Regional Housing Authority but, where an item was under dis cussion, it is of course expected of the person to withdraw from the meeting at the extreme, perhaps, and this is something we will have to work out in guidelines for conflicts, alternatively to indicate that, given the fact that she has this other interest, that she will abstain from articulating her concerns in voting. There are any number of ways that this can be done.

Honourable members will know that in our Housing Boards throughout the province the legislation spe cifically provides for tenant involvement and of course there is real potential for conflicts of interest there because the tenants have a vested interest in some of the matters they deal with. But I think it's generally accepted that people knowledgeable and interested in the field have much to add in connection with the work of boards such as the Manitoba Hous ing and Renewal Corporation Board, such that I don't think we want to inhibit people like Mrs. Joan Warner from having a role.

I think that can be done, providing that adequate discretion is used and any area of direct, or indirect, conflict is recognized and dealt with as items come before the Board. MR. FILMON: I am sure that there are mechanisms by which the person appointed can avoid potential con flicts of interest; I have no doubt about that.

My con cern is that there would undoubtedly be many, many other people in the province, including many of the political persuasion of the present government, who could have sufficient background and interest and knowledge about housing and could serve on the Board without being faced, on perhaps a fairly regular basis, with a potential conflict of interest, given the fact that the Winnipeg Regional Hous ing Authority has the largest numbers of public housing units under its jurisdiction of any of the other housing authorities in the province.

I just wonder whether that situation needs to be necessary, given the fact that there would be so many others who could have been appointed with equal qualifications. MR. CHAIRMAN, Harry M. Harapiak (The Pas): The Honourable Minister. 2219 MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't want to repeat what I've said earlier. I think that it's fair com ment to draw to my attention and the government's attention that where possible, we should avoid appointments that have a likely continuing probabil ity of conflict in interest.

As against that, we want to have people involved in our programs that are knowledgable because of experience. There is a role to play, on the part of these people, and we will have to be careful to identify any basis for conflict and avoid it and the honourable member's right in bringing that to my attention, but I don't think it's an area that presents a barrier to us in having that person with her knowl edge and understanding of the area, which we would like to have on that Board. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I wonder if the Minister could indicate if the Corporation has undertaken a number of initiatives with respect to

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 housing the physically handicapped in the province over the past while. I know that there have been requests from other areas of the province and Win nipeg has been the focus for a number of the projects that have been carried on. In fact, that's the name that was used for some of the projects, 'Focus.' I believe. Is the Corporation looking at providing special housing for the physically handicapped in other areas of the province at the moment? MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, I'm given to under stand that there is some consideration for extending this program beyond Winnipeg and that there is con sideration for the need in The Pas area at the present time. MR. FIL MON: What I need identified, is what has been decided upon by the Corporation. MR. MACKLIN G: The area has been identified.

There has been some negotiation in connection with it; it is not complete and I don't think that I want to enlarge on the specifics at this stage, because the matter is under discussion and there will be a report to the board when a recommendation is at a stage where it should be brought forward. MR. FILMON: The Minister referred to the use of the Non-Profit Housing Corporation as a vehicle by which additional opportunities for public housing construction could be undertaken in the province. Under what new programs of funding would this occur? MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr.

Chairman, primarily under 56. 1, the Non-profit Section, we have 200 units avail able for development. As I indicated in my opening remarks, the take-up by non-profit organizations is focused almost exclusively in respect to senior citi zens' housing and the Corporation has identified sig nificant needs for family housing accommodation in the areas that I've indicated. It's difficult to get organi zations bringing forward proposals in respect to fam ily housing. MR . FILMON: Would this family housing be con structed under 56.1 as well? MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR.

FILMON: So then, we would be taking away from the 200 units that are currently allocated to senior citizens and converting some to family housing. MR. MACKLING: The units are not allocated for senior citizen's housing. They are allocated under 56.1 for non-profit housing and it is open for public or senior citizens. We've had much more success in get ting sponsorship programs for senior citizens. MR. FILM ON: But there would not be any additional units made available as a result of using the non-profit vehicle? MR. MACKLING: No, Mr. Chairman.

We have diffi culty with federal programs in getting sufficient allo- 2220 cation of housing units from Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. MR. FILM ON: What total numbers of units under the various federal programs through CMHC are avail able to the province this year? MR. MACKLING: I'm sorry. MR. CHAIR MAN: Could you repeat that please, the Member for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: What total numbers of units under the federal CMHC programming are available to the prov ince this year? MR. MACKLIN G: Mr. Chairman, Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation has allocated to the Mani toba

section of CMHC 1, 000 units, but of that 1,0 00 units, they have allocated to MHRC for its develop ments a total of 300; 200 under 56.1 and 10 0 under Remote and Northern, that's

Section 40. There are 85 units that CMHC have allocated for administration and development under the MMF, the Manitoba Met is Federation. There are about 400 units that CMHC will allocate directly to private groups sponsoring senior citizens' housing. MR. FIL MON: So, the reactivation of the non-profit corporation really doesn't add any capability in terms of utilization of federal funds. It basically gives you an opportunity for a little more flexibility within the judgment as to where you allocate those units, but it doesn't add anything to the total fund. MR.

MACKLING: It's true it doesn't add additional units to the total pie, but what we have had is an inability or lag in take-up in the area of family housing. That is where the greater need is right now and in order to satisfy that need, or to deal with that, reactiva tion of the nonprofit MHRC will give us the flexibility to advance the construction of those units. MR. FILM ON: How many units a year do you expect you'll be allocating to family housing? MR. MACKLING: We have 200 units available for this year and we hope and expect we'll be able to get those units into family housing. MR.

FILMON: So you'll then not be using any of them for senior citizens' housing. MR . MACKLING: That's right, not this year. MR. FILMON: When we left office, there were a number of commitments made to housing programs for seniors throughout the province, from last year's allocation, so have any adjustments been made to that? MR . MACKLING: I'm sorry I was listening to staff on it, because I have to go back on that answer I gave you, Gary. MR. CHAIR MAN: Mr. Minister, maybe you can go

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 back now and start over again. MR. MACKLING: If you wouldn't mind you've got to repeat the question anyway. I'm sorry. I give you an answer, that using the 200 units in family housing, there would be no senior citizens in nonprofit housing and that's not the case at all. There are 48 units that we are looking at for elderly and disabled in respect to the Luther Home of those 200. So there will be 15 2 that we would look at, that would be available for public housing. Now I'm sorry, I'll accept your question. MR.

FILMON: Last year's commitment of units, which were committed last year for the construction per haps beginning in the late fall or whenever, we noti fied any numbers of different nonprofit organizations throughout the province and they included - one's up in the Swan River area and some in the southeast and so on and I don't recall all the places - but has there been any changes in those allocations and those commitments? MR. MACKLING: Holy smoke. That wasn't my answer, Mr. Chairman. I have an open-door policy in my office, that's not in keeping.

No, the projects that were targeted and identified for nonprofit development previously, are all ongo ing. I don't think there is any change but some of the remote and northern housing have been reallocated. They're small numbers of units. MR . FILMON: One of the concerns we had last year I know and in the past, was that the numbers of units that were allocated by CMHC to the ANN Program for delivery by the MMF were almost never fully utilized. Is that an ongoing problem or do you have any proposals to try and deal with that? MR.

MACKLING: I'm given to understand that the MMF have been very fair about that and they have given any surplus that they weren't able to use, to the MHRC and we got 32 units last year. MR. FILMON: Does the Minister see on the horizon any new opportunities for federal cost-s haring for various programs that he might be able to utilize to provide more housing units, rather than having to take away from units that used to be allocated to seniors' housing and now sharing them with family housing.

We're really not increasing the pie and there's an ongoing need to continue to increase the housing stock, both for seniors and for low income families. What's the view on the horizon as far as additional federal cost-sharing or programming? MR. MACKLING: Just one moment, Mr. Chairman. Well, the staff personnel have indicated to CMHC, our constructive criticism I can say, a dissatisfaction with the number of units that are available to us and con tinue to press for a greater allocation of social hous ing units, in order to satisfy the actual need that is considered out there for housing.

The Federal Government has been involved in addi tional programming. They have, as the honourable member knows, been involved in a number of pro- grams that in some way are deemed by them to be of assistance. The latest one is the Canada Rental Supp ly Pro gram and it doesn't look like that program is being taken up to any extent in Manitoba. We hope we can, in discussion with the Federal Government, try and get them to adopt a more acceptable program that will find favour in the industry and that can be success fully utilized in Manitoba to meet needs.

The Canada Rental Supply Program involves really a deferral of payment up to $7,500 on an interest-free loan but that really hasn't attracted any takeup at all. We are concerned to get a better program out of the Federal Government and I am going to be pursuing initiatives in that regard. MR. FILMON: Thus far, co-operative federalism isn't working, right? MR. MACKLING: Well, co-operative federalism does work. I indicated when I participated in the sp illing of some concrete at the Lions Place that here was an example of co-operative federalism.

Some of the programs that the Federal Government has brought forward, have been taken up effectively by provincial governments and of all political stripe and are very successful programs. I always go out of my way to indicate how pleased I am with this kind of joint government participation in these programs. All too often we hear the reverse, where there's criticism back and forth, that the Federal Government claims they're not getting enough recognition or the provinces aren't co-operating.

I think the provinces, given the right kind of program, are eager to work with the Federal Government in meeting needs because they have their fiscal problems, we have them. 2221 If we can work out programs where we can benefit people, then I'm willing to stand up on as high a platform as the Federal Government wants and give recognition to the Federal Government's initiatives. By the same token, I want to take as much credit for our own government, for our own enterprise, as we can. I think there is ample opportunity for co-operative federalism. I don't think it's dead. I think Mr.

Trudeau regrets ever having made that remark because I don't think he believes it. He certainly doesn't want to believe it and I think that will change. MR. FILMON: I think the difficulty is not being ready and willing to give credit to the Federal Government. I am sure the Minister has better things to do than to read my old speeches at some of those sod turnings and concrete pourings ... MR. MACKLING: I haven't read them. MR. FILMON: ... and bricklayings. I am sure he hasn't, that is why I say it, but I don't think any of us were reluctant to give credit.

The difficulty is, as the Minister indicates, that he has 200 units at his disposal and that the CMHC for Manitoba will have a total of perhaps 1, 000 units, some of which may go unused for a variety of reasons. This certainly isn't going to fulfill the needs on just a simple ongoing basis in Manitoba and there is going to be a need for creating

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 or developing alternative programming to take care of some of the already identified needs that he is well aware of. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman. at the staff level indication has been given loud and clear to the federal agency about our dissatisfaction, that we want more units. I have arranged for a meeting, as a matter of fact, I expect to be meeting sometime tomorrow, pro viding accommodation can be made in my legislative time, to meet with Mr. Extence, the Central Mortgage and Housing Regional Director to voice these concerns. MR.

FILMON: I have always found him to be a co operative individual, so I am sure that you are going to see the right people in any case. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could have his staff give me the fig ure under CHAP, Critical Home Repair Program. We have the 1980-81 actual and we have the 1981-82 adjusted vote. Can they give us now the latest computer printout of the 1981-82 actual? MR. MACKLING: In a moment, Mr. Chairman. We'll have it here in just a moment. I am advised it is $846,000.00. MR. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation's advertising campaign on the enhancement to the Critical Home Repair Pro gram that was developed by the Board of Directors at my request and announced by his predecessor, the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs of this current government, who was responsible for hous ing initially in this government's term, uses the phrase over and over again, the reactivated Critical Home Repair Program. Does the Minister suggest that a program that spent 1.13 million in 19 80-81 and 846,000 in 1981-82 was either dormant or deactivated? MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, I think that the hon ourable member might justifiably quarrel with the word "reactivated." Ho wever, when you look at the numbers I don't think that the word is deceiving because I am advised that during the more active years, under this program, there was an expenditure of $8 million to $9 million in a two-year period and that the program has been winding down. When you look at $846,000, that isn't a program that has been running at anything like the levels it had in the past. There is reactivation of the program to interest more people.

The guidelines were revised in order to bring more people into the program and benefits increased, so maybe the honourable member has some justification for being somewhat sensitive about the word "reacti vating," but what's involved is an enrichment of the program and much more incentive in that. So, you could say, reinvigorated or redesigned, recast, reacti vated, I am not hung up about the adjective. I think the advertising agency probably wanted to get across that there are new impetus involved in this program and I think that word isn't untoward. MR.

FILM ON: With respect, theMin ister doesn't have to tell me what the differences were. As I indicated, it was after many discussions and quite some prodding on my part that the Board of Directors of MHRC came up with the new guidelines, with the enhancements and the various opportunities for improving the pro gram and I am well aware of what was needed at the time in terms of income eligibility, in terms ability for people to reapply a second time and so on and so forth.

But it appeared to me that there was a little dishonesty in the approach of the advertising to sug gest that the program had been entirely cut off in the past and to say reactivated means that it must have been deactivated at some point in time. MR. MACKLING: I won't quarrel with the honourable member's sensitivity. I think the program and the facts speak for themselves. There is no question but I think the former Minister - and I am referring to the Critic now- had intended that more be done, but during the latter part of the former administration insu fficient had been done.

Maybe it was planned to do more, but the program was winding down so that now we are concerned to reactivate or to enrich, whatever adjec tive you want to use, a program that is good, that is constructive and is an excellent one for stimulating the construction industry and I think we are doing that successfully. We have to advertise to get people to take up pro grams and I think the advertising is very useful. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. MACKLING: Let the Member for Tuxedo finish and then it doesn't interrupt his line of questioning so much, unless Frank wants to get in now. MR.

FIL MON: Could the Minister tell me, the pro gram which his government announced, what differ ences there are between it and the one that was de ve I o ped by the Board of MHRC und er our administration? 2222 MR. MACKLING: I'm given to understand, Mr. Chairman, that the board did develop a program, but a program that was rejected, and a different concept was brought forward -(I nterjection)- yes, it'll just take a moment because it's ... I wonder if we could stand that down. I'll get it in note form because it's difficult for me to relate all of this because it's not within my particular knowledge.

It's past history that I have to recall or have staff recall and then I'll give you the answer, so I'll stand that one down and answer that. MR . FILM ON: It's past history that occurred, it was in the last three months I guess, four months. MR. MACKLING: Earlier than that, six months maybe. Well, that month of November was an important one; I don't think we can forget about that one. I'll come back to that one. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Stur geon Creek. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, on the CHAP Pro gram I think if the Minister does do some check ing,

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 my recollection is that it was usually in the area of 2.5 million that was alloted to the CHAP Program. The 5 million in 19 77 was, I believe, 2.5 million or 2 million in the Inside-Outside Paint Program. The Inside-Outside Paint Program with the CHAP Program in 19 77 created a situation that increased the number of applications considerably and in November of '77 we were approximately 5, 500 applications behind. The reason for that is the paint program was brought in and for some reason in '77 there was a big take-up, there were applications all over the province.

The people would have the application for outside paint and the eaves would be falling off and they'd say well, we can't paint over that. The people would say how do we fix that and they'd say go to the CHAP Program. If the inside paint was bad, and the plaster ing was bad, they'd say we can't paint over that, how do we fix that, go to the CHAP Program. So, you had a situation of approximately in the order of 5,500 appli cations that had to be gone through. So it took from through 19 78-79 and part of '80 to work those down with the new applications that were coming in all the time.

The Inside-Outside Paint Program was not car ried on; it was a one-shot program. I think you'll find that the funding for the CHAP Program generally was in the order of about $2 million to $2.5 million. There was a change in the program that, I guess you could say would contribute to it falling down or not as many applications. In the old program there was a qualifica tion that it didn't matter what your means were. If you were a senior citizen you could qualify for $15 0 and there was no question as to whether you needed it or you didn't need it so that particular part of the pro gram was discontinued. Mr.

Chairman the new advertising program is going to increase the applications. Has the department taken into consideration the number of people that will be required to handle the increased applications? In other words, I hope you're not getting into the situation again where you will have a backlog of applications that won't be attended to. In the previous case back in '78 it took us almost two years to get caught up. I guess my question is: is the personnel of the department enough to handle the new applica tions that will be coming in, in a reasonable length of time? MR.

MACKLIN G: Well, in connection with the staff, we've hired seven new inspectors, and the program is computerized, so that we have computerized data to enhance the processing of applications. I might say in connection with the program; it was initiated in 19 75- 76. In the first period '75-76, records indicate there were 4,815 applications that were approved and put in the works; in the subsequent year 19 76-77 there were 9,0 21 ; the following year '77-78 although there was a reduction in applications, 2.456, only 1, 782 of which were approved for processing. Then in '79-80 there were 2,090; in 19 80-81 only 579.

So you can see that in the period '79 - 80, '80-8 1, '81 -82 there's been a real falling-off there in applications: 13 ,000 in first two years and 4,000 in the last three; 75 percent in the first two years. So my remarks earlier about the program having tapered right off are demonstrated by the approved applications. Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't finish. The staff indicates to me that those numbers do not include this Inside Outside Paint Program. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, that doesn't change the fact that there were 5,500 applications, approxi mately, that had not been attended to at that particu lar time and the Minister uses the word 'approved.' I imagine the approvals were the same, I know the approvals were the same process as they were pre viously. The program being as new as it was during the years the Minister is speaking of, naturally took on a lot of applications and it stands to reason that the more you do the less there is going to have to be done. In other words you get into a catch-up situation.

Now that you have changed the program and you're put ting on an advertising campaign. You know, the Min ister has really increased it by only about $500,000 per year but, by the same token will, with the new compu terization that you have and the seven new staff, be able to keep up with the applications that will be brought in. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, we expect with the staff that have been engaged in the com puterization we will be able to keep up and the increase in funding is not $500,000 it's $1, 500,000; there's a doubling in this program.

So, it's back to the 3 million budgeting and in respect to the inside-outside paint, the staff tells me that was an additional program that isn't recorded in the statistics I've recalled to you. But the honourable member is right when he says that there was a very substantial backlog at one period because in that year, 19 76-77, there were 12 ,31 3 applications and 9,021 were approved. Part of that work consti tuted a backlog for the subsequent year because that was a very sharp increase over the previous year when there had been 4,815 . MR. JOHNSTON: Well. the Minister is basically agreeing with me.

Onc e somebody has applied and received the benefit of the program, un til the new program that has been introduced has come in, they were not able to apply again and you were gradually getting most of the job done and you didn't bring in a situation where you could reapply until you were rea sonably sure that you had taken care of the demand that was out there the first time ar ound.

But when we say, yes it has gone back to approximately the same amount of money that was usually appropriated to this program. but I'm fully aware that the Inside Outside Paint Program is not in here, the Inside Outside Paint Program created a tremendous amount of strain on the the CHAP Program, but that's really all that I was trying to say. 2223 If the Minister is satisfied that he has the staff to handle it I would ask him, is the same procedure being used in that the applicant has an inspector come out, look at the work that they want to have done and it is then approved by the department and the applicant then gets quotations on the work?

Of course, then it's approved by the department as to the costs, etc., and who gets the job. In other words, they have to get a couple of tenders. or they used to have to get a couple of prices. MR. MACKLIN G: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that's basically

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 how the system works. The applicant communicates with the corporation. How it works now is that the inspector goes out, has a look at it and confirms the nature of the work would be appropriate. Then the people get two contractors to supply tenders; then those tenders are fed back to the corporation; then formal approval is given and the work proceeds. MR. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would ask the Chairman, are we just going down the list? I have something to ask on the grants to nonprofit housing. MR. MACKLING: Could you repeat that please? MR.

JOHNSTON: No, we were at CHAP , are we just going down the list? MR. MACKLING: No, it's free-wheel ing, Frank. MR. JOHNSTON: All right. On the non profit housing the Minister mentioned there are 1, 000 units allotted to Manitoba and the Province of Manitoba has 300 and 100 of them are in the rural and northern program, will any of that 100 be used for senior citizen's accommodation in the rural area? MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. JOHNSTON: Could the Minister tell us approx imately what breakdown of the 100 will be senior citizens in the rural area? MR. MACKLING: About 75 or 78 of those 100 R and Ns. MR.

JOHNSTON: And those are the duplex units that ... MR. MACKLING: That's a combination. MR. JOHNSTON: The program on the nonprofit was ... MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, can I correct the honourable member when he said 1,000 nonprofits; no. that's 1,000 housing units alltold CMHC had. MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, that's right. Well, the CMHC has 700 left, in other words, in Manitoba? MR. MACKLING: Yes, that's right. MR.

JOHNSTON: The nonprofit program had a, I guess we'd call it a regulation or whatever we want to call it, in that if the nonprofit organization requested CMHC for 90 percent of the funding the write-down on the interest would be to 1 percent MR. MACKLING: 2 percent. MR. JOHNSTON: . . . 90 percent of the funding. MR. MACKLING: It started out as 1 percent, it's now 2 percent. MR. JOHNSTON: Now 2 percent. What is the write down if they request from CMHC 100 percent of the funding? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I'm given to under stand it still works out to about 2 percent.

I'm advised that it's a formula that CMHC determines. It's a com plicated formula but it works out to something less than 2 percent. MR. JOHNSTON: Well, it's slightly less then if they ask for 100 percent funding? MR. MACKLING: Yes. MR. JOHNSTON: In the request for 90 percent fund ing the province would be involved for 5 percent of the Capital funding and the nonprofit corporation would be involved for 5 percent of the funding.

Many of the nonprofit corporations, to get the benefit of the extra 1 percent, which the Minister says is not really 1 per cent any more, preferred to work with the province in that the units where the province were involved in would have the SAFER Program available in those units. Is the SAFER Program only available in the ones that the Provincial Government participate in, or is it available in all at the present time? MR. MACKLING: In all of them, I'm given to understand. MR.

JOHNSTON: The budgeting for the nonprofit program the province has 2.4 million and 1.2 million of it being allocated to the Lions Manor. Did the province budget the 1.1 million as to the amount that they felt they could spend and say to CMHC that we really can't handle any more? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I am given to under stand the budget figure was provided for on the basis of the number of non profit units that CMHC indicated were available, multiplied by the average cost of a unit and 5 percent of that was taken for the figure we would have to have in our budget. 2224 MR.

JOHNSTON: That would indicate, Mr. Chair man, that the nonprofit organizations will be working directly with CMHC. MR. MACKLING: Yes. MR. JOHNSTON: Is there any communication between CMHC and Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation as to the numbers that they build or where they are being built from the point of view that the province's SAFER program is involved in these units? MR. MACKLING: Yes. there is regular communica tion and I could almost use the word, constant com munication, between CMHC and MHRC. MR.

JOHNSTON: Does the SAFER program budget take into consideration that - and I know it said 3 million here - does it take into consideration that there may be 1,000 un its built in Manitoba? I would

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 assume there will be if the take-up is the way it used to be. MR. MACKLIN G: I am given to understand that of the 1, 000 units that we have been talking about the CMHC has for allocation in Manitoba, 400 of those will likely be developed as senior citizens' units and not all of those units, of course, would have people renting that are eligible under the SAFER program. Primarily, the larger take-up under the SAFER program is not in the nonprofit, but in the private apartment rental. MR. JOHNS TON: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister, does it appear as if the Federal Govern ment - and I know he was talking about the co operation and I must say that I think we always had co-operation with the Manitoba CMHC office - that they want to be doing it on their own rather than working with the province? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I haven't been Minis ter long enough to really formulate an assessment that would reflect my thinking about that question.

But my staff indicate to me that there is no indication to them that there has been any policy thrust to take away from the co-operative position that has been employed in the past in respect to social housing. It is my expectation, that with encouragement, that cli mate will continue and with the righ t kind of persua sion maybe it would be encouraged to develop even more. MR. JOHNSTON: In the Winnipeg core area non profit grants, I recall when we went ahead with that with the City of Winnipeg there was an awful lot of discussion.

We finally decided that we would move ahead with the city on that particular program and according to the newspapers and the radio reports, they seemed to be running into some problems with that program in that they indicate that there has to be a lot more money put into it to be success ful. Am I talking on the wrong one? Maybe I am on the wrong one. I am speaking of the program of the upgrading and I don't think that's the nonprofit one. MR. MACKLING: Wait a minute, I'd better get the right line. MR. JOHNSTON: So it's the Winnipeg Core Area RAP then, the one underneath, that's the one.

We went in for a million dollars, I believe, -(l nterjection) didn't we? What did we do, Saul? You were there when I gave them the cheque, for heaven's sake. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. I shouldn't be addressing this -(I nterjec tion)- No, I'm talking about the upgrading. MR. MACKLING: It's not covered under the Core Area line. That's the line above Winnipeg Nonpr ofit Housing Corporation. MR. CHAIR MAN: I think we are having difficulty with the taping at this point. May we take one at a time. Mr. Minister, would you like to go next? MR. MACKLING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I apolog ize.

In respect to Winnipeg Non profit Housing Corpo ration, the funding as indicated there, 19 80-81 there was $230,000 actual; and an Adjusted Vote 19 81 -82, $1 92,500 and we are reactivationg that vote this year. Correct? It's $1 million spread over five years. that's what it is and what that involves is funding that corpo ration that buys up old homes, refits them or retrofits them and puts them back on the market. It's a good program. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I had some chats with your staff on that.

It had some difficulties and apparently it is still having difficulties in that the amount of money it costs to rehabilitate an older home in the core area at the present time, it creates a price on the house that you can't get for it. According to the newspapers and the announce ments that are coming from the Non profit Housing Corporation of the City of Winnipeg is that they are having some concerns as to whether they will be able to sell the houses and they may need a lot more funding. Is there a program to assist these houses to be sold now? Is that what's happening? MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, I am given to under stand that the Nonprofit Housing Corporation is quite satisfied with the contribution that the province has been making. I won't speak about their relationship with the city and whether or not they consider that to be satisfactory or unsatisfactory, although I may have some views on it or staff may have some views on it. I am given to understand that program has been working very well, that they don't have a crisis situa tion in respect to their housing. There have been indi cations that they have some problems but I think they've been inflated.

I'm given to understand they're doing very well. 2225 MR. JOHNSTON: Could the Minister - and he might not have the figures at the present time - indicate to the Committee how many houses have been rehabili tated and how many have been sold? As I say, that might not be right at hand. The fellow you're sitting beside is on the board, I think. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that there were start-up problems and th at's probably what the honourable member was referring to.

There was publicity in respect, perhaps, to that area but they have been functioning; the start-up problems are behind them; they have rehabilitated three units that have been then returned to the market. There are 40 units in the work which comprise individual units and small multiple units. MR. JOHNSTON: So 43 units all told. MR. MACKLING: We should point out that program isn't one that MHRC supervises or directs, but we are contributors to it by way of funding. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, we are contributing to it as the Minister says and three houses.

I would ask if we got our money back on three houses or was there a subsidy to move them?

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I'm given to under stand that we didn't make the contribution in 19 81- 82 because they had funds in the bank and they're mak ing money on the funds they now have. They are not in financial difficulty. MR. JOHNSTON: You should probably ask your staff if he's attending the meetings - I'm sur e he is. That's not a reflection on him, but are we getting when we take and rehabilitate a house and spend the time and money that has to be spent on it are they getting the money back, are they? Not the government. MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, I confess that I haven't been in a position to evaluate that agency which is at arm's length from us but staff tells me that they did have difficulty initially but they're rolling now and they're optimistic about the work that they're doing. MR. JOHNSTON: I really don't have another ques tion. I would only say to the Minister that I hope that there is a check being made, that if we're having to subsidize the sale of the house, the government should know about it. MR. MACKLING: No, we're apparently not subsidiz ing the sale of houses. MR. JOHNSTON: That's all I have. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. GOURL AY: Mr. Chairman, I'm just wondering what relationship the MMF have with the MHRC with respect to housing at the present time. Is there any direct connecton? MR. MACKLING: As I indicated earlier, of the social housing units that CMHC has for allocation in Mani toba the re is 18 5 that are called remote and northern under

Section 40 - 100 of which are allocated to us, 85 of which are with the MMF who act as the administra tive agency the program delivery agency in respect to these units. There is liaison through a tripartite or tri-le vel committee involving Central Mortgage and Housing, the MHRC and the MMF so that there is liaison there. As I indicated earlier a number of units the previous year that had not been taken up by MMF were taken up by MHRC and developed, 32 units last year. There is a close working relationship maintained. MR.

GOURL AY: I'm wondering, would the MMF be negotiating the purchase of homes in communities, existing homes, under any arrangement through the MHRC? MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman, we don't eval uate their program; we understand !hat there is provi sions for that under the arrangements with CMHC. I could elaborate on the answer I gave you a little ear lier, that is, in respect to the units that MMF do deliver CMHC under the CMHC allocation. The MMF does not organize and deliver elderly family units and they allocate those to MHRC. MR . GOURLAY: Going on to the non-pr ofit seniors' housing.

I'm of the opinion that there were some 12 units approved for the German Baptist Church in Min itonas. This would be under last year's allocation, or would it be under the current year's allocation? MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, and they are proceeding. MR. GOU RLAY: Also the Birch River Leg ion had been enquiring about housing under a similar arran gement. Was there anything approved on that, or is there anything active at the present time? MR. MACKLING: Not that I'm aware of, Mr. Chairman. MR.

GOURL AY: I know that the Birch River Legion have been interested in this for some time and they' re of the opinion that something is currently active. I gather from what you're saying that there is nothing active, and if this is the case, what role or what action should the Legion take at this point? MR. MACKLING: Earlier on I had indicated that CMHC has 1,000 social housing units of which they allocate 300 to the province to MHRC. Eight of those 700 are involved in the Birch River development and the Legion is dealing directly with CMHC in respect to those. We don't have a role in that. MR.

GOURL AY: These are duplexes or are they apartment-type units? 2226 MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I understand that MHRC did build four duplex units; there are eight units under Remote and Northern Housing,

Section 40 and they were completed in 19 81 . Additional to that the Leg ion is seeking to build more units under the non-pr ofit

Section 56. 1 and they are dealing directly with CMHC on that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Member for Swan River. MR. GOURL AY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Tuxedo. MR. MACKLING: Oh, before, I'm sorry, Mr. Chair man, before the Member for Tuxedo asks a further question. He had asked me about the changes or variation in the programming that was advanced in the Critical Home Repair Program in the fall of 19 81. Now, the program that was advanced by the board which was not proceeded with was in respect to fam ily housing.

The program contemplated the use of loans from private lending institutions, no grant pro visions at all from the province, and a subsidized interest rate on the part of the province. That is, the province would be putting up money to reduce the interest rate paid by the individuals in respect to the loans. That was in respect to family housing. In respect to pensioners, there were grants involved in that proposal but the amount of the grants were unchanged from the previous program and the incomes had not been increased from the previous program. What's involved in this program is forgivable

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 grants in each case and the income level has been increased and the amount of the grant has been increased. So there's a wide disparity in the program that was offered, developed by the board in the late fall of '81 and the program that is now available. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Can the Minister indicate what is the maximum amount of the ... is it a total grant only - there's no loan portion for the senior citizens? MR. MACKLING: I have a brochure that outlines this, and for pensioners with an income of $7,000 and under the grant is $1 ,500.00.

There's no loan involved. If income is $8,000 then the grant is $1,300 and it goes down. Where the income is $14,000 the grant goes down to $100.00. MR. FILMON: That's for a couple or an individual, $14,000.00? MR. MACKLING: That applies whether the home is owned by one or two who have that income. That is if the total income is $7,000 and under, the grant is $1,50 0.00. MR. FIL MON: So that the income limitation has been raised to $14,000.00? MR. MACKLING: That's right. MR. FILMON: That's precisely the recommendation of the previous board, Mr. Chairman, for the benefit of the Minister.

I'll give him the copy that I have in case he's unaware of that. MR. MACKLING: If he indicates that was a recom mendation ... I'm not privy to that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Onc e again, we're getting into a conversation which is difficult to tape. MR. MACKLING: I'm sorry. I apologize, Mr. Chairman. MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, so the maximum grant has been increased to $1,5 00,

whereas the proposal of the board had been for a maximum grant of a $1 ,000, loan of a $1,000 with effective interest rates being subsidized down to levels of 8 percent and less, so that instead of $1,000 grant and a $1,000 loan with subsidized interest rates on a loan, they've chosen to go to a straight $1,500 grant maximum. MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, and I know the honourable member is referring to notes that he had when he was a Minister responsible. but I'm given to understand by staff that there was a paper processed back and forth because of differences in the devel opment of the program and the guidelines that he's referring to as the one proposed by the board may or not be the guidelines that are the terms that the board were recommending. Finally. MR. FILMON: I can assure the Minister that not only did they have the approval of the board but. they're initialled by staff and there's an O/C prepared on them. So, they're official. Mr.

Chairman, the next question has to do with the proportion that has been left out and that is to do with a program for providing for families to have a repair program opportunity such as the Critical Home Repair Program which is targeted at senior citizens. Is the Minister planning on proceeding with any assistance to low-inc ome families who require precisely the same type of assistance? MR. MACKLIN G: The program provides for that, Mr. Chairman, under the Critical Home Repair Program, the assistance for families.

Where there's an adjusted income of $10,000 and under, there's a first-step grant of $700; second-step matching grant and repayable loan, $700 grant, $700 loan; third-step optional repayment loan of $900 and the potential total in that case where adjusted income is $10,000 and under is $3,000.00. The loans that were referred have an effec tive interest rate of 9.5 percent over an eight-year term. 2227 Then, in respect to income. As the income increases, the amount of the grant is reduced and the amount of the loan is reduced, so that you get down to an adjusted income of $16, 000.00.

You have a first-step grant of $100, matching grant loan, $1 00 grant. $100 loan. Third-step optional repayable loan of $2,700 make a potential of $3,000, so that families with income up to $1 6,000 can still be involved in this program. MR. FIL MON: What would be the effect of interest rate of somebody earning $16,000 on their $2,700 loan? MR. MACKLING: 9.5 percent. MR. FILMON: Again, it seems to correspond to some extent, although the numbers are slightly different, the other one cut off at $1 9,500 of family income and effective interest rates went from 11.5 down to O depe nding on income.

So, I guess there have been some minor adjustments on that approach as well. Mr. Chairman, there were a number of programs that were being contemplated that were targeted at assistance to families to purchase homes. The Minis ter made reference to a new program earlier. In fact, he said it'll be announced soon. Is this targeted at families for assistance to purchase homes? MR. MACKLING: Well, the indication that the state ment I read and made is to indicate provisions for housing rehabilitation loans. This isn't new housing. MR. FILMON: Is this in some way ... MR. MACKLI NG: In the core area, by the way. MR.

FIL MON: Yes, that's what I was going to suggest. Is it for the core area and is it meant to be compatible as an additive to the RAP availability as had been contemplated during our administration? MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 MR. FILMON: I think I'm familiar with the program then. Mr.

Chairman, for a number of years it was obviously something that was as troublesome to me as to anyone else when I took over responsibilities for the corporation, the Provincial Auditor has indicated serious concerns about financial accountability of the corporation and as a result of that I know that the board had appointed a special committee of the board to review proced ures with respect to financial accountability of the corporation and to try and over come the criticisms of the Provincial Auditor which had persisted for a number of years.

I know that the board, not only, had a special com mittee including a chartered accountant on that committee but they were considering having a tho rough review of the whole systems and procedures of the corporation. I wonder if that has been dropped or if anything has been done with respect to that? MR. MACKLIN G: Mr. Chairman, probably as a result of the recommendations of the Auditor, there is a thorough review of all systems and procedures in respect to accounts and that is ongoing.

One of the concerns that the Auditor apparently had which con cerned him was the fact that MHRC had in the past drawn down all of the funds allocated whether or not they actually required them for spend ing in that year and he was highly critical of the fact that the MHA therefore was requiring borrowing by the province that he felt needn't take place. This year the MHRC has not drawn down all of the money that they were provided in the budgeting. MR. FIL MON: Are there any other changes that are going to be made? As I recall that wasn't the only criticism they had. MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that the Provincial Auditor felt that there was a requirement for more detail in connection with information of recipients of the program, information about income and assets presumably and documentation on that. As a result of the concern to satisfy that kind of requirement the documentation that the board has developed in connection with Critical Home Repair and more particularly and more recently in respect to the Interest Rate Relief Program, has become fairly complex.

That is somewhat of a burden and that is an added burden to the corporation because while it's necessarily important that there be adequacy of doc umentation. the more complex you get the documen tation, the more difficult it is to process and the more reluctant people are to fill in complicated documents. So the take-up is somewhat affected by the result of our more demanding docu mentation in these programs. MR. FILMON: Is it only in programs such as Critical Home Repair, the Mortgage Interest Relief and SAFER and so on, or is it in the setting of rental rates since all of the units are being MR.

MACKLING: No, in connection with setting their rental rates. no. there has never been any criticism of that. It's been in these programs where there is an extension of assistance and, I guess, the Provincial Auditor believes that there should be more safeguard in respect to satisfying criteria for the program ... Well, I really didn't finish that sentence but I'm on a different train of thought.

Staff tells me that another criticism that the Provin cial Auditor had was in respect to arrears of rent, in respect to remote and Northern housing that where payments were badly in arrears there has been a sub stantial effort made by the corporation in respect to that area and of course, as a result of that there has been considerable improvement. However, there have been people who have been evicted under that improved effort. MR. FILMON: Has the Minister any figures to indicate what improvements have occurred?

I've seen some figures recently from the Winnipeg Regional Housing Corporation which indicate that they have had tre mendous improvement in the collection of their arrears. Do we have any similar figures to indicate what improvements have been accomplished as a result of our efforts in that area? MR. MACKLING: Staff tells me they don't have the statistics here but significant reductions have been made in some communities; one community identi fied to me - and I don't think I'll use the name of the community - a 25 percent reduction in the arrears situation. I think that's pretty good. MR.

CHAIR MAN: The Member for Tuxedo. Could I ask you to move closer to the microphone or speak up a little louder? MR. FILMON: Certainly, Mr. Chairman, I' d be glad to do that. I think that's one of the communities where we had an eviction or two and that probably had something to do with it. MR. MACKLING: I think you're right. 2228 MR. FILM ON: But in any case I wonder if the Minister would undertake at some reasonable time to give me some of those figures. I know they were very very troublesome to me when I saw them or some evidence of them and I think it's a problem that ought not to be let go. MR.

MACKLING: Sure, no problem. MR. FILMON: Surely the improvement that was made in the Winnipeg Regional Housing Corporation was from a figure of 10 or 15 percent right down under 5 percent, so they made substantial improvements. I think although it's a little more difficult in the remote areas that certainly with effort those collections could be improved to the satisfaction of. not only the Pro vincial Auditor but perhaps the taxpaying public at large.

The SAFER and SAFFR Programs, I wonder if the Minister could give me the current figures on - we just have the Adjusted Vote for 19 81 -82 - could we have the last computer run of the actual figures of payouts under those programs? MR. MACKLIN G: Under the SAFER. that is the Shel-

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 ter Allowances for Elderly Renters the current expec tation as of April, 19 82, is the total number of clients involved will be 3,330. Last year there were 3,261 . Last year there was 2,851 singles, 322 couples, 88 sharers. This year it is anticipated there will be 2,9 61, or there are, as of April 19 82; 2,961 singles, 269 coup les and 10 0 sharers. The overall average benefit last year was $70.48; anticipated this year, $60.96. The total dollar figures, 19 81- 82 under SAFER was $2,600,000; under SAPER, that is family shelter, $1 ,305,000.00. MR.

FILMON: The Minister indicated the total numbers under the SAFER Program of recipients. What is the total under the SAPER? MR. MACKLING: Under the SAPER the number of clients, as of April 30th this year, 1, 18 8; last year, 882. Of the 1, 18 8 there are 758 one-parent families and 430 two-parent families. The previous year there had been 498 one-parent families and 384 two-parent families. MR. FILMON: I'm trying to recall what our original estimates of the potential universe of eligible people out there was.

I think it was something like 9,000 for the SAFER and I can't recall the SAPER, whether it was 6,000 or 7,000 but I wonder if the Minister could give me that information. MR. MACKLING: The original estimates on 10 0- percent take-up was 8,000 to 9,000 on SAFER and 5,000 on family. MR.

FIL MON: It would indicate then, I guess, that we're approaching 40 percent take-up on our esti mates which I realize are sketchy at the best of times, on the SAFER, and my recollection is that B.C., who had preceded us in entering the shelter allowance field, probably still isn't even at the 40-percent take up level so we seem to have found people out there with reasonable degree of success who are eligible and wanted to use this program. Is the Minister satis fied that the program is working well? MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairman, it is my understand that the board will be looking at the program, includ ing rent levels, a concern that the rent levels will have to be looked at and a concern to look at the take-up again. Certainly there will be an ongoing review of that program. MR. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, I think that the rent lev els - we were talking about increasing them last fall when I was last in the Minister's office so I would think that there's no question that, for them to continue to be meaningful, the rent levels will have to be increased on a regular basis.

In fact, if the Minister hasn't received a recommendation I think he ought to be looking at a recommendation to index them, or that is not to index them but rather to review them at least annually to make it meaningful. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I understand that's what the staff have been doing and the board will be looking at that review. MR. FIL MON: My recollection was that the Federal Government was showing considerable interest in the Shelter Allowance Program, particularly since it seemed to be working relatively successfully in Mani toba.

There were, six months ago, three provinces involved with shelter allowances and the Federal Government, I think, was culling as much information about the programs as they could, primarily from our end of thi ngs. I wonder if there's been any indication lately of any desire on the Federal Government's part to get into the field? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that there hasn't been any further response from the Fed eral Government since the conversations the honour able member refers to. I'll certainly be interested in exploring that with Mr. Cosgrove and others in the Federal Government. MR.

FIL MON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has indi cated the progress of the mortgage Interest Rate Relief Program that his government has announced some time ago. Could he give us the latest statistics on applications? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, in respect to this program, the number of inqu'iries that we've received by telephone were 3,779 as of April 30th; walk-in inquires, 202; the number of applications that have been mailed out are 2,809; the number of applications received, 234. These applications are being processed; no benefits have been paid to date.

The first benefits will be paid out early this month - my staff says next week. I'm also advised that, for whatever reason, maybe it's advertising, maybe it's the time of year, I don't know what it is; maybe it's more people's mortgages coming up for renewal or whatever it is, but there has been a surge of interest in this past week. Twice as many applications have been coming in by mail as of last Friday so there has been a surge lately of interest by mail. MR. FIL MON: ... twice as many as the 234 that had been previously received? MR. MACKLIN G: Well, I'm leary about saying two times or three times.

There has been an increase in interest for whatever reason; I'm not playing on words now, there has been a quickening of activity. Now whether it's there are more mortgages coming up in a stated period, whatever it is, there have been a great deal more applications and people interested. MR . FIL MON: What was the estimate? I have the news releases here, but what was the estimate of the number of people who should be eligible when the government first announced the program? MR. MACKLING: The estimate is somewhere between 3,000 and 8,000 people and averaging that at about 5,000 applicants. 2229 MR.

FILM ON: What is the maximum benefit that can be paid under the program?

Wednesday, 5 May, 1982 MR. MACK LING: $275 per month for two years, par don me, I have to qualify that. there's $25 additional for people north of the 53rd parallel, about $300 a month for two years in the North for a total of $7,200, I would make it in the North. MR. FILMON: Has the Minister received any criti cisms or been party to any concerns. the process seems to be very cumbersome? He's explained as part of the earlier discussion that it's because of the desire for documentation.

Comments that have come to my attention were simply that it was just unnecessarily cumbersome and it wasn't just documentation that seemed to be the problem. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, we're doing a survey of applicants to find out why they are only making enquiry now. what problems they perceive in this program so that we' ll be better able to respond to those problems. MR.

FILMON: At the moment does the Minister or his staff believe that we are going to have a significant number, like 1,000 approvals this year, or are the combination of the criteria and the process such that perhaps the figure of 3,000 to 8,000 is optimistic. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that one of the requirements. one of the criteria that has been indicated to applicants is that they file their last year's income tax return. Some people, therefore. have delayed because of the current filing.

I recall now that some of the responses that we've received, a number of them, have been waiting on confirmation of infor mation from the banks or the lending institution. A great many of the applicants who have been surveyed are satisfied that they will be eligible for the interest rate relief. Now you must remember that the number that we talk about, 3,000 to 8,000, is an estimate and the estimate is 5,000, the average of that, and that's over a two-year period. So that I won't either wax optimistic or pessimistic about the numbers.

We think that there are a good many people that are going to be taking advantage of the program. How the actual numbers work out may indicate either that the pro gram wasn't advertised effectively or people didn't understand it. or whatever. but we think the numbers are right. We're hopeful that all those who ought to be taking advantage of this program will be. MR. FILMON: One of the restrictions on the el_igibility for the program, Mr. Chairman, is a limitation on hav ing other real property assets and I have no quarrel with that.

What safeguard is there in the procedure to ensure that people don't merely transfer out these assets into somebody else's name in order to qualify for the program? MR. MACKLING: Well. I don't know whether we've got a fail-safe program in respect to every portion of the criteria. People are going to take steps to take advantage of any program offered by government by transferring assets or moving things around.

I don't know whether we will catch all those and cope with all those but, by and large, the vast majority - and I say the vast majority, 95 percent, 96 percent, 98 percent of people - do not play games like that; there are some, no doubt, that will. But to try and build mechanisms to guard against the abuser would so restrict the value of the program that really it's not worth it. I think that's the case in most programs. You don't build a loose program, but you don't try to gear it to the worst possible situation because, if you do, you make it so rigid, so difficult that there'd be hardly any take up. MR.

FILMON: Is the Minister telling me there are no safeguards, that you're just trusting to the honesty of the people? MR. MACKLING: No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the criteria are there. we're not ex pecting that there are going to be people maneuvering, but if there is some maneuvering, I guess we may not catch all of it. We're really not geared up to be a kind of detective agency. We do searches and things like that. MR. FILMON: What part of the process allows the Minister to look out for something like this? MR.

MACKLI NG: Well when an applicant seeks interest rate relief, as a regular course we search the title to that property and any other property that they may own. MR. FILMON: What would indicate whether or not somebody has. within the last few months, trans ferred property out into somebody else's name. MR. MACKLING: Well, the Land Titles Office has records of transactions including transfers and if there is a recent transfer that would be noted in any search. MR. FILMON: Would that include. say a cottage on the Lake of the Woods, for instance, or a condomi nium in Florida? MR. MACKLI NG: Mr.

Chairman, if we have appli cants who have condominiums in Florida we will probably miss them, miss being able to search that property, because we may not be aware of it but their income level would probably exclude their participa tion in the program. Now they might have their income geared in such a manner with a fancy tax accountan

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-48
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 48.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f50014fc6e555c4c5fe36ecd551963698461506f

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