Manitoba Hansard — 3 May 1976 (Sitting 96, 30th Legislature, 3rd Session)

30-3-96

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XXIII No. 96 2:30p.m., Monday, May 3, 1976. Third Session, 30th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans- Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

Electoral Division Name Political Address Postal Affiliation Code ARTHUR J. Douglas Watt P.C. Reston, Man. ROM 1XO ASSIN IBOIA Steve Patrick Lib. 10 Red Robin Place, Wpg. R3J 3L8 BIRTLE-RUSSELL Harry E. Graham P.C. Binscarth, Man. ROJ OGO BRANDON EAST Hon. Leonard S. Evans NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OVB BRAN DON WEST Edward McGill P.C. 2228 Princess Ave., Brandon R7B OH9 BURROWS Hon.

Ben Hanuschak NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OVB CHAR LESWOOD Arthur Moug P.C. 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg R3R 1 L5 CHURCHILL Les Osland NDP 66 Radisson Blvd., Churchill ROB OEO CRESCENTWOOD Warren Steen P.C. 410 Borebank St., Winnipeg R3N 1E7 DAUPHIN Hon. Peter Burtniak NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OVB ELMWOOD Hon. R ussell J. Doern NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OVB EMERSON Steve Derewianchuk NDP Vita, Manitoba ROA 2KO FLIN FLON Thomas Barrow NDP Cranberry Portage, Man.

ROB OHO FORT GARRY L.R. (Bud) Sherman P.C. 86 Niagara St., Winnipeg R3N OT9 FORT ROUGE l,loyd Axworthy Lib. 140 Roslyn Road, Winnipeg R3L OG8 GIMLI John C. G6ttfried NDP 44- 3rd Ave., Gimli, Man. ROC 1BO GLAD STONE James R. Ferguson P.C. Gladstone, Man. ROJ OTO INKSTER Hon. Sidney Green, Q.C. NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C ova KILDONAN Hon. Peter Fox NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OVB LAC DU BONNET Hon. Sam Uskiw NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 LAKESIDE Harry J. Enns P.C. Woodlands, Man. ROC 3HO LA VERENDRYE Bob Ban man P.C. Steinbach, Man.

ROA 2AO LOGAN William Jenkins NDP 1294 Er in St., Winnipeg R3E 2S6 MINNEDOSA David Blake P.C. Minnedosa, Man. ROJ 1EO MORRIS Warner H. Jorgenson P.C. Morris, Man. ROG 1KO OSBORNE Hon. I an Turnbull NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 PEMBINA George Henderson P.C. Manitou, Man. ROG 1GO POINT DOUGLAS Donald Malinowski NDP 23 Coralberry Ave., Winnipeg R2V 2P2 PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE Gordon E. Johnston Lib. Box 112, Portage la Prairie, Manitoba R1N 3B2 RADISSON Harry Shafransky NDP 4 Maplehurst Rd., Winnipeg R2J 1W8 RHINE LAND Arnold Brown P.C. Winkler, Man. ROG 2XO RI EL Donald W.

Craik P.C. 3 River Lane, Winnipeg R2M 3Y8 RIVER HE IGHTS Sidney Spivak, Q.C. P.C. 2518- 160 Hargrave St., Wpg. R3C 3H3 ROBLIN J. Wally McKenzie P.C. lnglis, Man. ROJ OXO ROCK LAKE Henry J. Einarson P.C. Glenboro, Man. ROK OXO ROSSMERE Hon. Ed. Schreyer NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 RUPERTSLAND Hon. Harvey Bostrom NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 ST. BONIFACE Hon. L.L. Desjardins NDP 200- 185 Carlton St., Wpg. R3C 1P3 ST. GEORGE Hon. Bill Uruski NDP 10th fir., 330 Portage Ave., Wpg. R3C OC4 ST. JAMES George Minaker P.C. 318 Ronald St., Winnipeg R3J 3J8 ST. JOHNS Saul Cherniack, Q.C. NDP 333 St.

Johns Ave., Winnipeg �2W 1H2 ST. MATTHEWS Wally Johannson NDP 418 Home St., Winnipeg R3G 1X4 ST. VITAL D.J. Walding NDP 26 Hemlock Place, Winnipeg R2H 1L7 STE. ROSE A.R. (Pete) Adam NDP Ste. Rose du Lac, Man. ROL 1SO SELKIRK Hon. Howard Pawley NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OVB SEVEN OAKS Hon. Saul A. Miller NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 SOUR IS KILLARNEY Earl McKellar P.C. Nesbitt, Man. ROK 1PO SPRINGFIELD Hon. Rene E. Toupin NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 STURGEON CREEK J. Frank Johnston P.C. 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg R3J 2G3 SWAN RIVER James H. B ilton P.C. Swan River, Man.

ROL 1ZO THE PAS Hon. Ron McBryde NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OVB THOMPSON Ken Dillen NDP 24- 1 Public Rd., Thompson R8N OM3 TRANSCONA Hon. Russell Paulley NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OVB VIR DEN Morris McGregor P.C. Ken ton, Man. ROM OZO WELL INGTON Phi lip M. Petursson NDP 681 Banning St., Winnipeg R3G 2G3 WINN IPEG CENTRE Hon. J.R. (Bud) Boyce NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 WOLSELEY R.G. (Bob) Wilson P.C. 2 Middlegate, Winnipeg R3C 2C4

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 p.rn., Monday, May 3, 1976 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 3185 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should llli:e to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 25 students of the North Dakota Uni versity under the direction of Mr. B. Hess, as our guests. We also have 50 students from the St. John's High School under the direction of Mr. Bochiski. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Inkster, the Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management.

And we have 50 students, Grade 6 standing, of the Louis Riel Collegiate under Miss Boheirnier. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, the Minister of Health and Social Development. On behalf of all the honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS HON. LEONARD S.

EVANS (Minister of Industry and Cornrnerce)(Brandon East): Mr. Speake r, for the information of the members of the House, I'd like to table a number of copies of the submissio n of the Province of Manitoba to the Canadian Transport Corn mission Railway Transport Committee, which is holding hearings at the present time re garding trans-continental passenger services. I have a half a dozen copies here, Mr. Speaker. If parties wish additiona l copies, I'd be glad to provide them. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. HON.

SIDNEY GREEN, Q.C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Managernent)(Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to lay on the table the 1975 Annual Report of the Clean Environment Commission. Mr. Spealmr, on Friday, it was announced that the ·committee for Economic Development would meet tomorrow to receive a report from the Communities Economic Development Fund. The reports that we will be dealing with tomorrow do not include the Communities Economic Development Fund but will include Channel Area Loggers and Moose Lake Loggers and if possible, Minago Contractors Limited.

So I want to make the point that it's those three reports that we would be considering tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: Any other Ministerial Statements or Tabling • • • ? The Honourable Minister of Renewable Resources. HON. HARVEY BOSTROM (Minister of Renewable Resources)(Rupertsland): Mr. Speake r, for the information of members the trees in front of them on their desks are compliments of the Manitoba Forestry Association. These are to mark the opening of National Forest Week in Manitoba. They are a native white cedar which is native to Manitoba.

They apparently are a tree which thrives very well in any of the soil of Mani toba, although they are native to southeastern Manitoba . I would just like to mention to honourable members that they may be a bit concerned that the tree looks a little red around the edges. Apparently this is a result of frost or snow over the winter and they will quickly bloom back into green foliage. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): For the information of the Minister, in Swan River we grow these. I have a 40 foot high tree of that nature. MR.

SPEAKER:: Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. The Honourable Minister of Mines.

3186 May 3, 1976 INTRODUCTION OF BILIS MR. GREEN, on behalf of the Honourable Mr. J?awley, introduced Bill 65,

an Act to amend The Planning Act. MR. SPEAKER: Questions. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Leader of the Official Opposition)(Riel): Mr. Speaker I direct a question to the First Minister. In view of his proposed trip to Ottawa on Thursday for the Energy Conference, I wonder if he can advise what Manitoba's basic position will be, presented to that conference. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier)(R ossmere): Mr.

Speaker, the basic position will be as we've indicated in recent months, that we do not see that there is suff icient justification for any significant further adjustment of the price, particularly in the light of serious deviation in the estimates of reserves and until there is more com prehensive indication as to what future energy policy for Canada will be. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, in terms of the basic issue, is Manitoba's position going to be then similar to that of the Province of Ontario? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, not significantly diff erent I shouldn't think.

There has been some opportunity to more or less be briefed on and understand what Ontario's position is and in that context I would think that our position will be substantiall similar, particularly I would think now that Ontario has indicated, at least in a tentative way, that their position will include the premise that if there must be further increase in price that it be on a basis of differentiation as between old oil and new oil. That is yet another refinement which Ontario presumably is adopting; that is the position which Man itoba put forward more than a year ago. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable the Minister of Health and Social Development and I would like to ask him whether emergency plans have been formulated to accommodate patients from hospitals in Saskatchewan who are affected by the nurses' strike in that province ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. LAURENT L. DESJAR DINS (Minister of Health and Social Development) (St. Boniface): No, Mr.

Speaker, but I've had discussions with the Chairman of the Manitoba Health Services Commission and they're looking at the situation and if need be, if we have to be helpful to our sister province, we'll be ready. MR. SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Will those discussions be going on beyond discussions within Manitoba, to include officials in Saskatchewan? MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, if we have a request from Saskatchewan, but so far we've had no request that I know of. MR. SHERMAN: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I would direct it to the Honourable, the Acting Minister of Labour, and ask him whether emergency action ol that kind would be in any danger of being construed by the government as strike breaking MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I regret that I did not follow the train of the earlier questions so the honourable member will have to tell me what kind of action he's talking about. MR. SHERMAN: Well, if I may be permitted, Sir.

To the Acting Minister of Labour: in view of the fact that plans are under consideration for emergency accommoda tion of patients from Saskatchewan hospitals who are aff ected by the current nurses 1 strike, can the Department of Health and Social Development be assured that in the view of this government such accommodation would not constitute strike breaking? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, it's always been my impression that any employer is entitled by law to try to deal with the fact that his employees are on strike.

The Government of Manitoba takes the position, and has taken the position through the MinistE of Health, that our responsibility will be to look after our patients under our care. Son: , y f er me

May 3, 1976 3187 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR . GREEN cont'd) • • • • • people may construe that as strike breaking, so let them construe it . Our responsibility will be to deal with the patients unde r our care. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR . ROBERT G. WILSON (Wolseley): To the Minister of Public Works. Can the Minister confirm that autos advertised as Manitoba Government vehicles were sold May 1st and were all these government vehicles, as advertised? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works . HON. RUSSE LL DOERN (Minister of Public Works)(Elmwood): Mr.

Speaker, we're checking into that . I unde rstand that the vehicles that were advertised were government vehicles but they were not sold by the government. So the ad could have been misleading and we 're looking into the matter. MR . WILSON: A supplementa ry. Can the Minister confirm that those govern ment cars, two new rear tires are put on every car and possibly who pays for them? MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR . BOB BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I direct my question to the Minister of Indu stry arid Commerce and would ask the Minister if he could confirm that employees of his department have been asked to fill out the Disclosure of Interest forms. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Indu stry and Commerce. MR . EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I'll have to take that question as notice. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR . HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr . Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Tourism and Recreation.

My question pertains to a concession build ing in Spruce Woods Park and I'd ask him if he could indicate the nature of the loss of that buildi ng. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. HON. RENE TOUPIN (Minister of Tour ism, Recreation and Cul tural Affairs) (Springfield): No, Mr. Speaker, I'll take that questi on as notice. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR . WILSON: The Honourable Attorney-General, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Can the Minister confirm that the suspect arrested for indecent assault at the Legislative Buildings on a 9-year old girl has been released without bail or examination? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General)(Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, that 's a matter before the courts . There has been a suspect arrested that works for the De partment of the Attorney-General , yes. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines . MR . GREEN: Mr .

Speaker, the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition re quested some information with regards to the Lake Winnipeg Regulation and I have an answer for him now. Since Lake Winnipeg was drawn down to 715 feet in late November, 1975, every effort has been made to achieve maximum outflow from Lake Winnipeg to maximize power generation on the Nelson River . The only time that the Jenpeg control gates have been utilized to restrict outflow was last summer when stages were raised to prevent damage of channel banks during cofferdam removal at the Ominawin By-Pass and at the Eight Mile Channel.

The effect of this action was to keep the level of Lake Winnipeg .3 feet higher than would have been the case under natural conditions. However, the increased discharge capacity afforded by placing the Ominawin By-Pass and the Eight-Mile Channel in operation returned the lake to the level it would have been under natural conditions by December 1st, 1975 . Since that time the lake level has been lower than it would have been under natural outlet conditions. That is the information that's given to me by the people responsible for regulation of Lake Winnipeg. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition.

MR . CRAIK: Mr . Speaker, I thank the Minister for his comments and we can pursue it further in Public Utilities Committee with Hydro . I wonder also if he had an opportunity to look at a further question regarding

3188 May 3, 1976 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. CRAJK cont'd) ••••• the unemployment rates for young people, the predictions for the summer of 1976 , whether or not Manitoba is to reach the heights indicated by the Federal Government at a roughly 20 percent unemployment, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I believe the honourable member also asked me that question. The answer would be furnished through the Department of Labour and I do not believe it has reached me yet. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR . LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Can the Minister indicate whether his department is presenting any intervention to the CRTC hearings concerning the pn:oposed fee raise of cablevision in the City of Winnipeg? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. HON. IAN TURNBULL (Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services) (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, the Province of Manitoba and the Telephone System will be presenting a number of interventions. One of those interventions by the government is with regard to fee increases for the monthly subscriber rate.

MR . AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister then in dicate what position the Government of Manitoba will be taking in this intervention? Will it be opposing the fee increase ? MR . TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, essentially that is what the Government of Manitoba is doing, It is claiming that the profits of the cable companies are adequate to cover both increasing costs and improved service and that no increase in rates is neces sary. If the member wi·shes I can send him a copy of the intervention, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, MR.

AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr, Speaker, A supplementary - and I thank the Minister for his offer, I'd be pleased to receive them. I wonder if we could also ask the question whether an intervention is being planned concerning the CRTC ruling excluding the carrying of FM radio on cablevision channels, whether in fact the Govern ment of Manitoba would be asking that that particular ruling be rescinded so that FM broadcasting could be carried on the cable channel. MR . TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, I am sending copies of the interventions to the member, I will take that question and check it.

ORDERS OF THE DAY - WRITTEN QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the day, The Honourable House Leader, I'll take the Orders for Return first. No. I. The Honourable Member for Roblin. Order for Return, MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, it's a question of the min istry, Do I have to read it into the record? MR. SPEAKER: I'm sorry. The question will be taken as read. Order for Return, The Honourable Member for Ste, Rose. ORDERS FOR RE TURN MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM (Ste, Rose): Thank you, Mr, Speaker.

I'd like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Point Douglas, THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing� (1) (

a) How many patients were evacuated from the Thompson Hospital during the illegal nurses 1 strike last year.

b) How many of these patients were sent home, (2) (

a) How many patients were evacuated from the Health Sciences Centre durin1 the recent strike of hospital support workers. (

b) How many of these were sent home. (3) (

a) How many patients were evacuated from the Misericordia Hospital re cently when a strike of hospital workers was threatened. g

May 3, 1976 3189 ORDERS FOR RE TURN (MR. ADAM cont'd) (

b) How many of these were sent home?

(4) Who is responsible for the admission and discharge of patients to and from hospitals ? MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR . DES JARDINS: Mr. Chairman, most of these questions are the responsi bility of the diff erent boards but we'll endeavour to try to get the information for my honourable friend. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker I wonder if you would proceed to deal with the adjourned debates on second reading of bills in the order in which they stand on the Order Paper. GOVERNMENT BILLS - SECOND READING MR.

SPEAKER: Bill No. 37, proposed by the Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Could I have the matter stand please, Mr. Speaker. (Agreed) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 47, proposed by the Honourable Minister of Highways. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR . BANMAN: Stand, please Mr. Speaker. (Agreed) MR . SPEAKER: Bill No. 51, proposed by the Attorney-General. The Honour able Member for Gladstone. (Stand) Bill No. 52, proposed by the Attorney-General. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. (Stand) Bill No. 53, proposed by the Attorney-General.

The Honourable Member for Birtle-R ussell. (Stand) Does the Honourable House Leader wish to proceed with the second readings to be introduced? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would move, seconded by the Attorney-General that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair for Education and the Honour able Member for St. Vital in the Chair for Highways.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - DEPARTMENT OF ED UCATION MR . CHAIRMAN: Order please. I refer honourable members to Page 19 in their Estimates Book. Resolution 47 - Evaluation, Research and Policy Analysis, (

a) Salaries $214, 600--pass - The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. ED WARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Chairman, when we were discus sing this matter on Friday afternoon the question of the evaluation of standards in the schools came up, particularly in relation to Duck Mountain and a study which had been done, an evaluation, internal and external, of the school division. I recall, Mr.

Chair man, that the Minister made some statements in connection with standards generally and the methods of evaluating such standards and it was my impression a week ago that he felt that such standard assessment by means of tests was meaningless and that they really didn't provide much useful information in respect to achievement levels in the school.

On the other handJ in the more recent discussion of the Duck Mountain Division he mentioned that he had urged the various divisions in the Manitoba school system to make use of the Canadian tests of standards and that this would in a sense replace any evaluation instrument which had existed in the past, i.e. the Field Service Branch, and would perhaps be an interim method, pending the completion of the ongoing studies and

3190 May 3, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. McGILL cont'd) • • • • • work that is being done in his department with respect to a satisfactory and suitable evaluation instrument. I sense there is an inconsistency here in the remarks made some weeks ago in connection with the use of standards and testing in the department and the remarks the Minister made in connection with the crit icisms of the Duck Mountain evaluation project. Could the Minister elaborate on that? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education)(Burrows): Mr. Chairman, there's no inconsistency at all.

What I did say is that relying on standardized tests per se is not all that worthwhile an exercise; relying on them just simply for comparative purposes as in the performance of a group of students in one school division as compared with another or one school as compared with another or one generation of students as compared with that of another, but tests which are part of a process that enables the school system to identify areas of weakness, areas within which improvement is necessary, tests which enable the teachers to do a diagnostic analysis of the students' performance and which in turn will aid their teaching, is of value.

This, Mr. Chairman, is the very type of evaluation program that is being developed. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, there's been much discussion about the relative merits of the so-called progressive unstructured classroom system which the administra tion of the Manitoba Department of Education is now favouring and the more structured traditional methods in the classroom. I'm wondering if the Minister has made any attempt to compare the results being achieved in the progressive system that he how is promoting and other schools within the province where more traditional methods might be in use.

Has the Minister made any comparisons in terms of achievement levels for students at similar grade levels between the Manitoba School System and other types of educational institutions using traditional methods ? MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, I did make reference to the open area study which is initiated and also the initiation of the use of achievement tests at the Grade 3, Grade 8 level. Those of course will be administered in various types of teach ing situations and the results of which will enable us to do the type of analysis that the Honourable Member for Brandon West is speaking of. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister has spoken in favour of the open classroom type of procedure and yet his Deputy Minister has recently made statements indicating that his faith in this kind of a system is diminishing and that it may well be necessary to return to the more traditional methods. Would he comment on that? MR. HANUSCHAK: I did on Friday, Mr. Chairman. MR . McGILL: Mr. Chairman, there's a Lancaster University research team which has concluded after a four-year study of children in 871 primary schools that formal classroom teaching works better because pupils work harder.

Teachers were classified in seven categories ranging from extremely tradition al to extremely progressive. Progressiveness was characterized by informality, freedom of choice for the pupil, less emphasis on tests and blurring of divisions between subjects. Testing 101 pupils aged 10 to 12-1/2 at the beginning and end of school years the re searchers found that in reading age, formally taught pupils .gained on their progressively taught counterparts by three to four months a year. In mathematics pupils in formal classrooms were four to five months ahead and in English the gap was three to four months.

The difference between formal and informal schools was particularly pronounced with the brightest boys and girls, the report said. It said such children did less work and achieved lower scores in progressive schools. Can the Minister comment on that report? MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, I would want to see that report and famil iarize myself with some more of the details of it before I'd be in a position to comment on it.

As I did indicate a moment ago when I made the statement that I answered a previous question of the honourable member on Friday, and I think that perhaps I could repeat a portion of that answer on this occasion, that the unstructured, more liberal forrr ofte aching does have certain benefits, certain advantages. But for it to be effective and , m

May 3, 1976 3191 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) • • • • • successful there is need for the proper preparation and training of teachers.

I think the honourable member will recall that I did mention that in an open-are a setting it's very important that all of the teachers work as members of a team and if any one of those links within that linkage of teachers that forms a team should break, then the school system has a problem that it has to deal with and attempt to remedy it in some fashion, But just to respond a simple brief concise conclusion or observation based on a study, I could not make at this point in time without knowing all of the variables that have been taken into account and that take into account all the variables that may make that particular situation either similar or diff erent from ours.

MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I asked the Minister earlier whether he had made any attempt to compare concurrently the product of structured types of classrooms and more traditional types of school systems with his present system in Manitoba, I would think that it would be useful to him to be able to take people who are subject to the same current forces in terms of distractions, and so on, and compare their achieve ment levels in the schools. Now I think the Minister will admit that in the independent schools in Manitoba the more traditional methods of instruction are maintained,

whereas in his own school system it is somewhat different, Has the Minister made any attempt to compare the achievement levels of people in the independent schools in Manitoba with those in the public school system? MR . HANUSCHAK: No, Mr, Chairman, not in any scientific manner, MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I have in front of me here a 1976 Mathematical Contest for Grade 8 and Grade 9 students, This is the Manitoba Association of Mathe matics Teachers and I understand that this contest is held annually and mathematics teachers in all the schools, independent and public, are invited to put up their better people to write this test to see what achievement levels are attained, Now in the in dependent schools I suppose there's a very small percentage in total of the total number of pupils in class in Grade 8 and 9. I don't know what that percentage would be but I would think it would be very small.

The results of these tests show that for first and second place in the province, two students from independent schools top the list. Tied for second with a student from an independent school is a student from a public school in Manitoba. So two out of three in first and second place are from independent schools, in mathematics. In the next list of honourable mention, in order of finish, out of 22 students who got honourable mention for their performance in mathematics, 50 percent were from the private schools, that is the traditional school systems.

Surely this indicates that the traditional teaching methods are having better achievement results than the present methods being used in the Manitoba school sy stem. I'd like the Minister to give me his comments on this result. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, To me all these results are in- dicative of is the fact that on the basis of the particular test that was administered this year, the number of students that the Honourable Member for Brandon West mentioned scored highest in it. That and nothing more. I really can't read anything else into that about the school system. MR . McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, if mathematical tests are indicative of achieve ment would he not agree that the traditional teaching methods are producing a higher quality of product than the progressive methods which he is supporting? MR . HANUSCHAK: No, Mr. Chairman, I will not agree with that. All that that indicates is that those students from those schools were able to perform and perform well on that particular test. How that reflects on the overall quality and caliber of teaching of mathematics on a comparative basis as between one school system and another, I do not know. Those results do not tell us that, MR .

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 47(a) - the Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I don't know how it could be made any clearer to the Minister. We have a school system in which there, at the moment, is something like 230 , 000 children enrolled - in the independent schools in Manitoba I would guess perhaps 4, 000 or 5, 000 - and percentage-wise one would think that we'd do a little better

3192 May 3, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. McGILL cont'd) ••••• in achievement in mathematics if what the Minister says is true, that he 1 s getting just as good standards in the basics as we used to get in other schools. He's been able to put aside these comparisons because they compared what happened in 1968 or 1969 or 1970 with what is now happening, and has suggested that things have changed so much that it's difficult to compare the product of five or six years ago with the product of today because of the different influences and pressures on the students in the school. But here is a current test, 1976.

These students are growing up in the same kind of air, under the same influences, some are going to a school system where they use traditional structured methods in the classroom and some are going to the so-called progressive schools and the results are quite clear. The people from the structured classrooms are occupying 50 percent of the top 25 places in this Manitoba test and yet in numbers they are a very small percentage of the total in school.

I don't know how the Minister can set aside that resu1t unless he doesn't want to hear any results that don't agree with his pre-determined positions in respect to the kind of education we should hav e in Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, I don't know that we can do very much until we have some more effective w,ay of presenting the clear evidence, in my view pretty clear evi dence, of the difficulties that relate to the kind of school system he is attempting to im pose in Manitoba. Let me proceed, Mr. Chairman, to a more specific question.

A recent letter from the Minister's Department advised the schools that grants for innovative projects are being discontinued. Does this mean that incompleted projects will be left without departmental funding or does it mean that no commitments will be made to new projects? MR. HANUSCHAK: No to the first question and yes to the second. While I'm on my feet, Mr. Chairman, again may I attempt to impress upon the hono urable member that the mathematics test that he refers to merely compares the per formance of the better or the best students.

The .honourable member knows perfectly well that an independent school is at liberty to choose those students which it wishes to enroll and those which it may wish not to enroll, and not enroll them. So here was a group of students selected to write a particular test and that's the record of their per formance , it in no way reflects upon or is any indication of the overall general per formance of all the students.

Again I must repeat to the honourable member that not un less the honourable member could demonstrate to me that the enrollment in any given independent school is comparable to the entire spectrum of students which the public schoo system must adress itself to, then that type of comparison may have some greater mea sure of validity for some meaningful comparison. But that is not so, Mr. Chairman.

The public school system has to provide for the needs of all children of school age where as the independent school provides for the needs of those children whom it selects for whose needs it wishes to make provision for. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to suggest to the Minister that per haps this message about declining standards in basics and the message about the sort of difference in the levels of achievement between the two different school systems was getting through to hi; department, and that possibly it was a message he didn't want to hear.

Of course historically we 're told that when the king received a message that he doesn't like from a messenger, he shoots the messenger. Mr. Chairman, I'm going to suggest that perhaps when the Minister dismantled the Field Service Branch he was in effect shooting the messenger and that he was getting this message loud and clear from a group of people who probably were aware of what was going on not only in the department but also in the school system and these people weren't very pleasant to have around. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 47(a) - the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I have some further questions I want to raise to the Minister but before doing so I would want to express my, I guess, ap prehension about the tone of the debate. To begin with, as some members will know, I have the greatest respect for the position taken by the Member from Brandon West, but he is engaging in a very serious logical fallacy, you know, that you learn in First Year Philosophy, I guess, and that is the old idea that if John is a man and wears a red shirt, l ,

May 3, 1976 3193 SUPPLY - ED UCATION (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) • • all men named John wear red shirts. That is the fallacy of saying that private schools, independent schools, which presumably use inde pendent methods create better students. That is not a fair analysis, Mr. Chairman, frankly and I think it's an unfair commentary on the public school system, mainly be cause - I think the Minister partially answered the question - private schools, so-called independent schools have a right to choose. But they also choose from a very select group of people in our community.

They select not only the best students but those who come from very heavily advantaged homes --(Interjection)--Well they also make mis takes, Mr. Chairman, in their selection at times. I don't think there's anything infallible. I think, Mr. Chairman, that there is also a certain fallacy in the private school system and I suppose for the sake of amusement they allow the odd ringer in just to keep people interested.

Frankly I don't care what the Member from Sturgeon Creek is going to fluster and buster about, I don't think he knows an awful lot about education frankly1 I don't think he's looked at private schools very much. I would simply ask him this, I would simply ask him this - I'll ask him one basic question and see if he can answer it in his own sort of way. I know he never likes to get confused by the facts so I wouldn't want to put that onus on him.

Let me just put this question to him; to go into those so-called private schools and just ask what the basic family income is of those people who are in those schools and I'll tell you what they are, they're probably in the top five or ten percent of income groups in this province. That's who are in the private schools in this province. Now you go back and find out - I'll ask the Member from Sturgeon Creek - you go back and find that out, aside from the scholarship students.

Many of the private schools are doing a proper job and I've been in several of them who are properly offering scholarships to selected students from other income groups, most of them because of the sheer fact - do you know what the tuition is to go to the University of Winnipeg Collegiate or St. John's Ravenscourt or St. Paul's? Do you know what the tuition is right now ? Do you want to know what the tuition is at those schools ? Mr.

Chairman, the fact of the matter is that I think that the kind of drift that we 're trying to create that somehow the public school system is being run amuck with a bunch of long-hair progressives who are opening the school up and allowing pure chaos to reign, is wrong. I would only ask members to go into the schools and find out what's happening in them. That's not taking place. Certainly there are some open classrooms and some conti-rtuous progress rooms but my God, most of the teachers in there are dealing with it.

I'll tell you what the advantages are in the private schools; small classrooms, teacher ratios which are around one to 18, not one to 30. That makes a big diff erence. As anyone involved in education knows, the ability to educate children with about half the number of children in the classroom is far better than when you've got 30 to 40 in the classroom. It has nothing to do whether it's continuous progress or open classroom or not. If you have smaller nun:bers of children you get a chance to more selectively deal with their concerns.

What the teachers in the public schools have been asking for is smaller classrooms but I suppose members of this House would be the first ones to fight against that particular objective. I'm not by any way being critical of the private school system. If people can afford it then it is an option in education and one that has served this community well by providing a great training ground for a lot of people - with some exceptions.

I think, as I say, they have obviously made some real errors in judgment along the way but the fact of the matter is that you cannot judge the public school system by the standards of the private independent schools. It is comparing two diff erent things. You're comparing a group that has the ability economically to select certain students from certain income brackets which have certain basic privileges at home. I just simply say that the public school system is providing a service to a much wider range of students from a much wider range of backgrounds.

I think that we should be very careful in our condemnation of that.

3194 May 3, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. AXWORTHY cont'

d) I think where the mistake has been made from the departmental side - and I don't think the mistake has been corrected - is they didn't evaluate the experiments they introduced, there was not a proper assessment done of the continuous progress programs or of the open classrooms. A year or so back when some students of mine went around to find out what the assessments were, no one had done it, no one had found out. So as a result we are subject to some of the know-nothing comments from people like the Mem ber from Sturgeon Creek without having a proper basis of knowing what's going on.

I think that's the mistake. I don't have any ••• for some of the experiments that have been tried but I think that if you're going to make commentary on them, don't do it on the basis of 'logical fallacies, do it on the basis of some fact and some evidence; that there is not only a difference in standards based upon some statistical calculation but those statistics are properly weighted to deal with similar students from similar back grounds in similar ways • That has not been done • Certainly people can say let's discard the sociology of students, but you can't discard it.

I think that if there has been anything that is clear in the annals of whatever kind of educational examinations that have been done in all countries, it is that there is a very strong link between home background and the performance in the school. Now whether you like it or not it happens to be the fact and while there can be exceptions to it if someone says; sure, I grew up in the school of hard knocks - I'll tell you there's a hell of a lot more failures in the school of hard knocks than there were successes.

The fact of the matter is the kind of discrimination that occurs as a result of one's home background is a very vital factor. I would put forward for the Member from Sturgeon Creek's sceptical mind the kind of evidence that was accumulated when the Americans went very heavily into the Headstart Programs as part of their war on poverty. They invested all kinds of money in trying to do remedial education. One of the things they found out in the fifth year of those experiments was that it was diff icult to compensate in the schools for the problems that were being occasioned in the home.

That was one of the real diff iculties. You can't expect the school system to overcome all of the multiple problems of poverty and discrimination and lack of advantage or culture or whatever it is that may take place, which is concomitant with the problem oftentimes of people being poor or in many cases being in backgrounds where they don't have those privileges. If you want to do some thing you know that there is a very close link between them.

I don't know if the Mem ber from Sturgeon Creek would recommend that we now take all children out of their homes and move them into some sort of platonic academy where they are tota.I.ly· con ditioned by the state so that we can ignore the family background, then okay. But that's a pretty Draconian measure. That is in many cases what seems to be the conclusion we 're leading to. I'm not here to defend the Minister. My God, I've been critical enough of him along the way. I'm trying to defend the notion of education and the right in this House to base the logic of the debate upon some facts and evidence.

If we're going to be critical of the school program, Mr. Chairman, there's enough to be critical of with out making things up. Surely to goodness there's enough problems in it and enough bad decisions being made by the Ministry of Education without hokeying things that aren't there, While there may be a real problem with standards, I don't think we address that problem by trying to make the case that somehow the private independent school, because it may be tougher on students or apply more discipline, therefore gets better educational per formance.

Unless you can show that taking all other factors as even: income of family, background, previous experience, if you can hold all those other factors constant, as they say in my jargon, and then prove that that's a fact then you've got a case. But the Member for Brandon West did not use that kind of study. He is simply making that logi cal connection. I would say you take the same number of children, from the same kind of social and economic background and put them under two methods and you'll probably find that it splits out about even because those are the tests that are being done. I would suggest this.

The thing that should be aimed at in our educational .

May 3, 1976 3195 SUPPLY -EDUCATION (:MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• system is a wider range of options, not simply one system versus the other but a range of options. A thing I suggested before and I think I ought to come back to it, is that even in the same school system that where children who require discipline because of their own psychic ma.keup or whatever reason, there can be options within almost that same school campus where that kind of option can be made as opposed to simply saying, it's one thing or the other. --(Interjection)-- Thank's for the support from the Minister. My goodness!

Usually when he comes around my back I usually think it's for a rear attack. This time it's unaccustomed support. I would simply say, Mr.

Chairman, in looking at this evaluation that about two years ago when I was visiting a series of high schools to examine what was going on in diff erent programs, one of the most interesting· ones in some of the American States was the idea of the umbrella concept of a high school where in fact within the same physical plant a range of diff erent kinds of educational methods were tried to the point where kids were sitting in with their backs straight and if they wanted to leave the room they had to raise their hand, one or two. Everything was rigidified, disciplined.

They come march ing in and out almost in a goose step. That was suitable for certain kinds of children. In other cases it was a very wide open progressive, free form type of edu cational system and the fact of the matter is, as the principal has said - and I'll tell you one thing, the college rate of students going from that high school was 97 percent in case the Member from Sturgeon Creek would like to know. The reason is that children at diff erent times in their educational experience require diff erent educational experiences.

In some cases you may require a totally disciplined system and at other times you go th<rough the kind of regimented system to acquire that sense of control which is required and then have the option of being more free form later on. I think that that has been the failure in the experiments as I said before. We kind of dibble and dabble in experimenta tion and we don't have a clearcut objective as to what we're trying to achieve in these diff erent innovations we've brought forward.

Rather than going at innovation in a hard practical sense of saying that we realize there are some problems in the school system, that the methods that we are usi ng now are not succeeding to the same degree, that there are concerns by parents, let us try within the existing framework to build in those options and evaluate them and assess them properly. When we go back into the history of it, when we put in continuous pro gress classrooms and the open area classroom we did not evaluate them ani assess them.

We don't know what the results are and that's tle condemnation that should be made of the Evaluation Branch. It is that in fact they tried something and they didn't look at it. It was an une;xamined form of innovation really so that they didn't take the schools and they didn't do a controlled classroom and an open classroom and assess them and hold other factors constant, from a good methodolo gy point of view. I'm just simply saying that there are acceptable methodologies for examining and judging the performance of certain kinds of educational programs. Unfortunately, Mr.

Chairman, we do not apply these on any rigorous basis in the Manitoba School System. We experiment without looking at ways of properly assessing the results of those experiments and innovations. That's been our failure. Mr. Chairman, I would not want to be in a position where I think the Minister and the Department have not been doing their job but I still think that any criticism that should be raised should be based upon what is there1 not something that we're trying to phantasize a case. Mr.

Chairman, there are still some fundamental issues about the problem of this branch and this department I'd like to mention. One was the Minister had indicated that he was going to provide us with some information about the assessment that this branch was doing concerning the question of young adolescents in the school system and the problems that are being faced, again inquiry of schools as to the problems of work training and delinquency and truancy and what is being done in terms of assessing that particular problem and developing some means of responding to it.

Again the Minister said he wants to forestall a full discussion until we can discuss that $600, 000 additional grant. Again I would think that this would fall within the proper purview of this branch

3196 May 3, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCAT ION (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• of the department to make an asses sment of what is, if you look at the bad statist ics, the ones that indicate the kids who are getting into trouble with the police, the juvenile courts, on the unemployment rolls, it is a very small group but it has a very high incidence of problems . Many of the criticisms that were being levelled can be zeroed in in many cases to a relatively small number in total but a very concentrated number of young male adolescents who should be occupying our inner city schools and are not receiving that kind of treatment.

I would be interested in receiving some asses sment from the Ministe r as to what is being done in that particular area. A third question I would have , Mr. Chairman , for the Ministe r is an issue that rose last year and that is the asses sment that the department had indicated they were prepared to do in terms of some of the alternative financial models that were being looked at . Again I don't think this comes under the financial section, the financial support because it is a research item.

I believe the Ministe r indicated last year when I raised the same issue about the development of alternative financial modes - I realize he has set up a committee that was to look at this problem but I gather that it was really a com mittee of MTS and MAST and the rest of it . I would like to know what research has been done by this department in that particular area . MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Ministe r of Ed ucation . MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, ins ofar as evaluation of any innovative pro gram that may have been launched, every innovative program had, upon its completion> been evaluated.

I want to draw to the honourable members 1 attention the fact that the vast majority if not practically all of such innovative programs were not conducted ex clusively by the Department of Ed ucation but rather by the school divi sion with financial assi stance from the department. The general control of the conduct of the innovative program esse ntially rested with the s:chool division.

Upon the evaluation of such programs many have now been built into and integrated into the regular operating program of the division . others, if the division felt that the program was not worthwhile to be continued, then :it is not being continued.

Insofar as providing students , particularly our junior and senior high school students , secondary school in the main, as broad a range of options as could poss ibly be provided, taking all factors into account, I want to draw to the honourable members' attention the fact that commencing last year and continuing into the current fiscal year there has been a se condary school alternatives program operated by the Winnipeg School Division and jointly funded on a 50 - 50 matching basis with my Department. Last year the departmental expe nditure for this program was $22, 500.

When I say last year, that's the fiscal year just ended 1975-76, and there's $15, 000 for this rrogram for the fiscal year 1976-77. This did generate considerable involvement on the part of the teachers because proposals were invited from the teachers of se condary schools for submi ssion for the planning and implementation of alternative programs .

The intent of the program was to provide start-up costs for the development of a variety of choices of programs , variety of choices for students , teachers and parents both in terms of curriculum and in terms of methodology and any combination of the two reflecting the variety of learning styles of students .

Professi onal development committees were established in each of the three areas of the Winnipeg School Divi sion including a representative from Ev aluation, Research and Policy Analysis, from my department, to establish criteria for the proposals and recom mend to the superintendent those proposals which meet the criteria.

To date over 20 proposals from more than 40 teachers have been reviewed by the committee and when implementation commences - the proposals at this point in time are at the formative stage , at the planning stage , planning and going the next step toward the formulation and design of a number of models - when the implementation commences at the beginning of the next school year in September, the program options will certainly have an impact, will have an effect on thousands of students in the se condary schools of the Winnipeg School Divis ion.

As a further step to that, in recognition or in response to our concern about the s,

May 3, 1976 3197 SUPPLY - EDUCA TION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ••••• host of problems and the varied problems facing our adolescents of today, . there are a number .o! programs in the area of · work study and so forth, but those programs dealing with the type of youth that the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge was referring to are in my other department, Colleges and Universities Affairs, under some of the projects being operated or funded by the Youth Secretariet.

Insofar as alternative financing models is concerned the committee, the ad visory committee which I had established did prepare a report and the alternatives that they have proposed are being reviewed and, as you will note, Mr. Chairman, when we will come to the next item in my Estimates dealing with financial supports that some of the proposals for changes in methods of funding education are in fact incorporated into this year's grant structure.

The main one of course - and this is one that we always want to be very much aware of and want to be able to meet to the best of our ability and that is the provision of greater equalization between the more and the less affluent school divisions and hence the increased equalization grants. I do. not want to deal with that at any length, Mr . Chairman, just simply to draw members' attention to these particular areas because they can more properly be debated under Item 3, Greater Equal ili:lation Grants, Small School Grants , Declining EnrolmentGrants and so forth. MR .

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 47 (a) - the Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR . McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I feel I should respond to the remarks that have been made in connection with the assessments that I have presented here which I indicated, in my view , pointed out pretty clearly that the achievement levels in the structured classroom were higher than in the more informal progressive type. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge has said that the argument is illogical for reasons which he presented to you. Mr.

Ch airman, I would say to the member that he is somehow relating aca, demic ability with income level and I would suggest to him that is a completely illogical assumption and that there is in fact indications to bear out the argument that people who come from difficult circumstances are often better performers and harder workers than those who come from more affluent homes. Really there are only two or three factors involved in this equation. One might say that we should compare the qualities of the teaching staff.

I would say right away that I think we have equally good mathematics teachers in the public school system. There are no teachers in my view that have su perior or better quali fications in the independent school system. If anything, we might have the edge there. So in terms of the teaching qualities, we're every bit as good. In terms of the intelligence levels of the students I think the inherent academic abilities of the students in the public schools system is as good as, if not better than the students in the independent schools. So what is the difference?

It isn't home background; it isn't academic levels ; it isn't that independent schools are getting all the smart kids and that the public school system is getting all the kids of lesser ability. That's just not true.

Yet the member says that this is an unfair comparison when I bring up a test done this year where all the mathematics teachers all over the province put up their best kids and they wrote the tests and out comes the significant result, in my view, that 50 percent of the top 25 are from the little independent schools· Is it just coincidence that they happen to have the formal type of structured classroom ? The Lancaster University Research Team sa ys, no it isn't a coincidence, it's a fact.

The Member for Fort Rouge says they're wrong, in effect, they haven't got the right resulte, but they went to the trouble of comparing, over a period of four years, the students in 871 primary schools . They found that the formal classroom works better than the un structured one because the kids work harder. They also found that in mathematics pupils in formal classrooms were four to five months ahead and in English the gap was three to four months. This simply says to me, they're right. This is what the university team over four years and 871 schools found out. You say they're wrong, I say th ey're right.

I think that this is a reasonable assessment of what's going on in our schools in Manitoba today. I don't think you can, by the arguments you present certainly, dispute the fact that we have evidence here which the department is apparently choosing to ignore .

3198 SUPPL Y - EDUCA TION MR. CHAJRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. May 3, 1976 MR. AXWORT HY: Mr. Chairman, I would never forego rising to a challenge about the way they go about ass essing it. I think that to begin with maybe it's just a difference of opinion. But I still state and I think that if the members to my right would like any evidence I could load up their little wheelbarrows full to show that there is a very strong, abiding and continuing connection between one's place in society and the way one performs in schools.

It is not simply a matter of income; it's a matter of a whole combination of factors that really relate to the opportunities that one has. In many cases it does relate to a home background; the kind of books that are in the place, the sort of experiences that are opened up, the sort of tendering - and I don't think anyone says that someone works harder or lesser.

I would simply point out, again for the member's edif ication, that a study that we completed recently in the core area of Winnipeg showed that close to 30 -some-odd percent of the students were dropping out before Grade 9., that was directly correlated to family background , income, and so on. I think that to ignore that fact I think shows a highly elitist attitude towards the society we live in and that we are simply assuming that everyone starts even in the great race for life. Well we don't start even.

Some start with their legs tied together and their hands behind their back and carrying an awful lot of burdens on them that it should be our responsibility to try and overcome. I think that those are the things that show up in the school system as they show up in many other activities of life . I think it can still be demonstrated that the people who populate our universities are still primarily middle class children. It's not even the lo west income, but even there are a far smaller percentage of children of working class families in our universities , much better than there was when I went.

I'd say that we'v e gone a long way but we've got a long way to go if we expect to talk about any form of equality of opportunity, the old cla ssic liberal position, not even equality as socialists like to talk about, a levelling experience but the sheer equality of opportunity still leaves a great deal to be desired. If you ever want to test it then again the school system is the best place of testing it. That's where it shows up most often and I think that we shouldn't ignore that fact.

I'm not making an argument for it, I'm simply saying that we do ourselves a disservice if we don't take into account that particular factor. As far as the Lancaster Study goes , Mr. Chairman, I wouldn't want to debate with the Member for Brandon West because I guess I learned long ago in some proper training that you don't start picking to pieces other people's research reports until you've had a chance read them carefully and compare them. So without knowing exactly the factors that were taken into account and the methods that were used I wouldn't want to comment upon it.

But let's talk a mfuute about what's logical falla cies . I understood the member to say that he was comparing the independent private schools of the province to the public school system and making the equation that the private independent schools had structured classrooms with a high degree of dis cipline and the public schools don't. Well that again does not accord with the facts , Mr. Chairman , because you'll find just as many structured classrooms organized in the traditional way in the public schools system as you'll find otherwise.

They are not all open area, continuous progressive, or whatever particular variation of the theme you want to use. There are many class- ·. rooms . Many of them work in between and again the visits I'v e taken with schools in the city - and I've spent some time doing that - to find out what is going on, points out that many of them, while they are organized under the traditional classroom concept that teachers because of, I think, a much higher degree of sensitivity to individual needs of children are now sort of taking that same classroom and shaping it to adapt to their problems.

I think it's one of the most colourful and entertaining afternoons one can spend, just to go into an elementary class, public school, in the city, and go in from classroom to classroom and see the variation of what teachers and students are doing in those classrooms under the so-called traditional concept. I would again say the logical fallacy is to equate public schools with sort of wild-eyes experimentation and again it's not true.

May�3, 1976 3199 SUPPLY - EDUCAT ION (MR. AXWORTHY cont'

d) There is certainly a good deal of it going on and in some places more than others. I think again that the Minister tried to slip by that one and if he was saying that the res ponsibility for assessment was the school divisions, I don't agree with that. I think that if the schools are going to introduce those methods of teaching, then it was a very clearcut responsibility of the department to say, then for God's sake find out what's going on after people have been in them and do it properly and effectively.

I can state categorically that it wa sn't done because I sent a group of students two years ago to find out what was being done and there was no evaluation on any kind of consistent, systematic basis being done to compare the performance of children in different kinds of classrooms, particularly assessing the continuous progress of open area classrooms versus the more traditional structured ones . There was not that kind of an assessment going on.

I think the Minister probably in hindsight would have been much better off if he had been a little tougher insisting upon that because he then might have had some proper ammunition to deal with the kind of attacks that are now being made. Really what we should be saying, Mr.

Chairman, at this point I think in honesty is that we know as elected represen tatives that parents are concerned and to that degree I share the sentiments of the Member for Brandon West, but I don't carry it to the conclusion he does because I'm not prepared to make those judgments until I see some pretty hard evidence and facts in front of me to show one way or the other, not ones that are borrowed from here and pasted on from there.

What we really should be asking for at this stage is for this Minister and that Department to get busy and do some proper assessments so that we can make the judgments next year or the year following as to what has been the relative concerns.

It's on that basis if we can demonstrate with some accuracy that the traditional method of teaching has been more effective in mathematical performances , then we 'll have to go along with it , if in fact we can say, as I think we've said before , the most important thing to the members of this House is that students get a couple of percentile higher on their mathematical exams. One of the results, I guess, of being in the education system is you realize the kind of tricks that both students and teachers resort to in order to perform well on standardized tests. I have seen, Mr.

Chairman, classrooms - going all the way back to the old days of departmental exams - when beginning along about November, for those teachers who wanted to hustle up a high standard on the departmental examinations, they would force feed those kids specifically to get those departmental exam percentiles up, Now that was not education, Mr. Chairman, that was the way you train a race horse to run in the Kentucky Derby. You train him; you give him a carrot to run in a straight line to beat a , • , to be more proficient than the classroom next door.

But that's not education, that has nothing to do with whether those kids were going to have any mathematical or reas oning ability when they got outside that classroom. If you want to do that in our classrooms, if you want to get back to where you are simply kind of conditioning students like a group of sort of race hors es , then let's say so., but let's not again simply say that when you take into account - that's the reason we got rid of those departmental exams. I've seen the same thing on standardized tests. Do you know how it works, Mr. Chairman?

The school board comes along and says , okay, this Grade 6 classroom is going to have a destandardiz ed test in English. I think the Member for Radisson would recognize this, he 's been to school ••• What does the teacher mainly do ? She pounds into those kids . the exact answers that they want, It has nothing to do with learning literature as a livi!lg, evolving system of thought; it's to make sure that they know exactly who Eustacia Vye was in the Return of the Native , and who she went to bed with and who she didn't.

That 's what they teach them to learn in order they get through those departmental exams which have all those graphic pencils. I think that that's what !d id, I never quite figured it out because I never was able to finish the novel , my mother took it away from me, Mr. Chairman, let's again be realistic about what we're talking about. Are we talking about performance on standardized tests or are we talking about education? guess that problem that we have to deal with is that no one as yet has really devised a way of properly assessing the qualities of education.

3200 May 3, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• When you start resorting to stat istical tests, they only give you part of an answer. As I always say to students who I teach methodologies and statistics to, I say a survey or statistics method is a snap shot. It catches a certain picture at a certain time. It doesn't demonstrate progress from one group of students to another.

I would be much happier if the Member for Brandon West, for example, had tests that showed that there was a group of kids coming into the school sys tem who were illiterateand after four · or five years were then able to read a news paper or be able to function as active citizens in the community as opposed to being able to achieve a high percentile compared to the kids from St. John's Ravenscourt. I would be much happier with the progress made by that group of kids in terms of a comment on the educational system than saying that they were able to deal with some of the esoteric questions.

I wonder if the Member from Brandon West has seen those tests. Has he looked at the questions on them? Does he know what those tests contain ? Because I do, I've seen them. I've helped administer them. I was involved with them, Mr. Chairman, and I'l l tell you, it' s a hothouse type of flower that you're trying to cultivate in terms of the standardized tests . I'm not being critical, Mr. Chairman, I'm trying to say that I've been involved in doing some of them.

I'm not saying that they're useless but I am saying that they are only partial measurements of performance and that you have to use a variety of measurement if you really want to measure per formance properly. OUr problem, Mr. Chairman - I'm not sure the Department of Education in this province is any more relaxed than others - is that we haven't been up-to-date in recognizing the fears and concerns of the general public about standards and have worked with any kind of zeal to develop an adequate set of measurements if there be such. That's the one thing that we haven't yet heard , Mr.

Chairman, from the Minister, really. I guess maybe if I was going to put my finger on the nub of it that I would in part discount some of the criticism that has been made. But the question that we have is: what is the Minister and the department now going to do about developing ways of measuring performance in the schools so that the concerns, fears and apprehensions of the Member for Brandon West, along with a number of parents in the provi nce, can be adequately answered one way or the other.

So th at we don't have to borrow sort of pirated studies from the State of Pennsylvania or the Yukon or from wherever, that we don't have to use partial kinds of examinations. I would like to suggest at this time that if we're going to do any kind of a job we should be doing something! that if that is of public concern that as a public agency it's their responsibility to respond to it.

But it must be responded to in an intelligent fashion and in a balanced fas hion and in an equitable fashion which means that maybe there has to be a battery of alternative ways of measuring performance which is going to cost money, frankly . I guess we'll have to say to the members of the Conservative Party1 are you prepared to put the proper amount of resources together to make sure that you get the kinds of measurement that you want so that we will then be able to honestly say to those people who are importuning you and me and others about problems in the school system, here 's the facts before us.

It does cost money to do those kinds of measurements , it really does. It's not a cheap thing to do. If you do it cheaply you get cheap answers and you get bad answers. If you want proper answers then it's going to take a fair amount of investment to do it effectively. I would say, Mr. Chairman, that we should expect from the Minister at this time some indication of what he is prepared to do. What is his response going to be to this variety of critiques about standards in the schools ? I don't think he can go through another session of trying to back the answers away by some sort of vague rebuttals.

I think he needs some hard facts and some evidence or at least some plan of action which he doesn't have right now, quite frankly. I don't think we have that plan of action in the province. So , I would like to know exactly what he is going to do. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, when the Honourable Member for Brandon West again repeated his position that there is no relationship between the student's

May 3, 1976 3201 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) •••.• socioeconomic background and performance in sch ool - in fact he went on to say that frequently that works to the student's advantage because it brings out the bes t in him and that many from the lowest rungs of the soc ioeconomic ladder end up doing quite well, perhaps exceptionally well in the school sys tem. Mr.

Chairman, if one were to carry that line of reas oning to its logical conclusion then what we ought to do is to drive the entire society into poverty and starvation on the premise that that would bring out the best in the performance of mankind, Maybe that 's what the Honourable Member for Brandon West is in fact suggesting, I don 't know. He quoted some findings of a survey that was done - well there are many surveys done in education, Mr. Chairman. I want to refer you to anothe r.

This was a paper written by one Joseph Grann is, Asso ciate Professor of Education at Teachers' College, Columbia University and he says the following: "The socioeconomic status of students calculated on the basis of parent occupations and educ ation almos t invariably has a strong assoc iation with attainment of education and so cietal goals when the average attainment of large student aggregates is examined, when we look at large student aggregates.

" Now it's true, looking at the performance of isolated individuals , you know, one would find exceptions but looking in terms of total numbers of students one would find that there is a very close correlation, A research project undertaken by OECD, looking at perhaps a much broader spectrum of the world's population than we do in Manitoba, looking at its 19 member countries , the findings of OE CD are as follows: "Young people from upper clas ses are highly over represented in the statistical sense in higher education, over represented that is in relation to the proportion of the same classes in the total labour force .

Young people from the middle classes are also over represented among the students though less so than those from the upper classes. Young people from the lower clas ses are under represented in the student body, " Why ?

For a variety of reasons , some of them may be economic, others , the very fact that for far too long - and I made this point before - that for far too long we've been offering an elitist type of education program designed only to meet the needs of a few, of a select few and not really designed to meet the needs of the entire broad spectrum of our population, One could go on and find - well John Porter, an outstanding Canadian so ciologist, speaks of class inequalities in Canada and he points out that the father's occupation has a strong influence on the children's chances getting access to higher education, • and I will not go into the statisti cal details of the evidence that he presents in support of this statement - but nevertheless there it is , I'm sure the honourable members on the other side probably have a copy of his book The Vertical Mosaic and so henc e they would have the same access to that information as I do or as anyone else may have.

The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge_, in continuing and speaking about evalu ation of performance and what are we doing, well I have indicated a number of projects that have been undertaken, that are being funded, and working jo intly with teachers and trustees, and I must say to the honourable member that I don't an ticipate an answer to that problem within the next few weeks or months or perhaps year or two, because to develop standards for evaluation, firstly we have to ask ourselves what do we expect of our school sys tem, what we expect it to deliver, what are we going to evalua te ?

Are we simply going to evaluate the basic skills and nothing more ? And in sa ying that I want to impress upon you, Mr. Chairman, that I'm in no way underestimating the value of or under-rating the value and si gnificance of the basic skills , Of course , they 're very essential.

But the community at large tells us that the sc hool sys tem should be much more than that, that to prepare a person to take his place in society as one who would have acquired and developed skills to enable him to become a productive citizen, that more than just a competency in the basic skills is necessa ry; problem so lving, analyz ing information that we receive critically and then applying it to our own use in a most effective and beneficial manner , and so forth, And you know, all of which is now be coming far more important than it may have been a deca de, two or three or four ago, particularly in the light of that fact that we're becoming a more transient, a more mobile so ciety.

In. fact with the technological advan cement in the electronic

3202 May 3, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCAT ION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) •• ••• media the world in a sense is shri nking to that extent and we're becoming more aware of problems and issues of concern existing the world round and become more aware of the fact that they do have an impact and bearing and relevance, a bearing upon us , and are relevant to our way of life and cannot be overlooked or ignored. So all of this really forms part of the learning process which takes us beyond just the basic skills.

So it's not quite as simple as some may think, that all we need do is to devise a test in reading and devise a test in arithmetic and that's going to answer all our problems , and that will provide us with the necessa ry instruments to effectively and validly evaluate our education program because education consists of much more than that.

You know when we hear comments made to the effect that society at large is unhappy with, is dissatisfied with our education program, I think to put that in its proper perspective one ought to say that the public is more concerned about the education pro gram and is more anxious to see that every dollar of public funds , whether it's one that comes by way of the provincial purse or the tax dollars that the school division raises via a municipality, it doesn't really matter, but the public is very concerned to see to it that we do get value for that dollar, and it's a perfectly valid concern.

But in stating that concern, the public is not necess arily condemning, just generally condemning the education program of today. In fact, Mr. Chairman, you will find that ••• well on Friday , I believe I made reference to a survey that we did which is published now in pamphlet form, ''What do parents think?" and you will find, Mr. Chairman, that by and large the vast majority of the.parents of children - this was of Grade 4 children - that by and large that the response was a positive one . The parents generally are quite satisfied with the education program that they're recmvmg. And I hasten to add, Mr .

Chairman, that having said that I'm not suggesting that we ought to be content with our achievements to this point in time but what I am saying is that, you know, it is not as bleak and as grim as some honourable members may wish to portray our educational program of today .

And similarly in a survey that was done of bus inessmen when asked about the high school graduates that they hired - and there again we find the response to be very positive, in fact, the interesting thing about that study that was done, that survey of businessmen, and it was conducted in two parts, both the employers were interviewed as well as the students employed who had graduated from high school, and it's interesting to observe that the students themselves were probably more harsh and severe critics of their own performance, and set goals and standards for themselves much higher than even those expected of them by their employers.

But this , as I've said, to develop a meaningful and a relevant evaluation system is not an easy task and I have on a number of occas ions during the course of this debate, on Friday in particular , made reference to the development of an internal-external model for the evaluation of our education program which was commenced in three divisions in the first year and it will be used in five and now in its second year.

And then when that model is developed and :refined, hopefully we would devise a scheme that all school divisions would be able to apply to themselves from time to time to get a reading on the level of their performance insofar as the delivery of an education program is concerned. Now the Honourable Member for Brandon West says, well we 've lost that which we 've had up until now when the field officers , formerly known as school inspectors, that they did this type of evaluation. Well, Mr.

Chairman , I think it must be said and the field officers would be first to admit that at best what they were able to do on a year to year basis was merely a superficial examination, an analysis of the education program, because to do a real indepth analysis does require a team of men and women and requi res their involvement over a period of some time, over a period of about a year or so, or otherwise you do end up with what the Honourable Member from Fort Rouge has referred to as a snapshot portr ayal of the education program at a given point in time,

May 3, 1976 3203 SUPPLY - EDUCA TION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ••••• at the time that the school inspector or the field officer happened to walk into the school. So, well, that was the system of evaluation which we had inherited which was developed over the years but as I have pointed out earlier, with our move toward unitary school division set-up, and with the organization rather, and with the school divisions developing a greater measure of expertise in the field of evaluation and those which may not have developed a significant level of expertise have cer tainly indicated the desire to do so.

So therefore the thrust must be in that direction to enable the local school authority to evaluate its own operations and in that way, Mr. Chairman, we could hope to have a sys tem operating that would be acco untable, that would be responsible, and that would be responsible and res ponsive to the local needs of its community. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member from Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, just to res pond to the latter remarks of the Minister, first I did mention the Field Officers Branch as an evaluating instrument because one year ago, as I mentioned before, the Minister spoke in such enthusiastic terms about the fact that while he hadn't been able to really complete overnight an evalu ation instrument that was completely acceptable he did want to remind me that we had the Field Service Branch and that they were doing that job in the interim. Now the Minister seems to have, one year later, somewhat changed his position. Mr.

Chairman, before we leave the philosophical debate introduced by the Member for Fort Rouge, I again take issue with the sort of silver spoon theory of academic achievement, that there is a relationship between those in fortunate circum stances by birth of affluence, somehow are better academic achievers than those who had it tough. It reminds me of the truth or otherwise of the old Latin motto, "per ardua ad astra. " And, you know, I think there is some relationship between adversity and the achievement levels of people who basically have the same, perhaps , intelligence quotient to begin.

And I think if you took a group in society who are achievers , even to suggest the Treasury Bench on the other side , and examined the background, you might find that some of the strongest performers and achievers over there were those who had to work the harde st when they were youn g. But, Mr. Chairman, that's a topic which could be pursued at great length and is not going to bring us to a conclusion in this debate.

And the Member for Fort Rouge I think got around to it after bringing up the old bugaboo about departmental examinations and other strenuous statements about the past; he said, really what we need is a good evaluation instrument and he pointed out that testing doesn' t provide a suitable and com plete evaluation. And I agree , but I think, Mr. Chairman, what we are trying to do right now is to put to rest that increasing feeling in society that during the searching for the real meaning of education the basic skills are som ehow declining.

And I say to you that this is important, that we must determine if this is happening while you are musing and experimenting and moving about in various debates on education, what is happening to the basic skills in the classroom. I think we do need to evaluate that, and it may not be a complete and adequate evaluation instrument to give students tests like this mathematical test that we talked about here , it is just one indication. And, Mr.

Chair man, I think this is of great urgency because if we go on in the ethereal manner in which the Minister is going in philosophical dissertations about the future of education and asking questions about where we're really going - and I try to relate those to the long-term objectives which he has already stated to us - they seem somehow to be more in keeping with the Deputy Minister's philosophy, that he doesn't have any real objectives, he merely res ponds to day to day pressures, and how one can achieve any overall purpose if you'r e busy looking after the day to day problems, is difficult to know.

The Minister said that maybe what I'm suggesting is that all we need is to devise a test in reading, writing and arithmetic and that answers all our problems. It doesn't at all, but it does perhaps justify or otherwise the kind of progressi ve unstructured approach to your educa tional system and compare it with what we have had in the past. All of the things are not bad about the present system and certainly there were many defects in the old system but I think it's basic to an educational system that we

3204 May 3, 1976 SUPPL Y - EDUCA TION (MR. McGILL cont'd) ••••• can all support and pay for without the great critical comments that we 're hearings if we know that the enrichments are being provided but not at the expense of certain things we feel are basic ally important for young people to have in order to make their own way in society. So, Mr. Chairman, we are still after two or three years of discussion searching for an evaluation instrument; why does the Minister keep putting down other temporary kinds of alternatives , at least in the evaluation of basic skills? MR. HANUSCHAK: It's strange, Mr.

Chairman, that the century of the history of province and the existence of the Province of Manitoba, from 187 0 to 1970, did not develop an effective and a me aningful evaluation instrument of education nor has anyone else in the world at this point in time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, the Member for Fort Rouge challenged the position of my colleague from Brandon West in part when he sa id that recent surveys have proved conclusively that economic ba ckground, financ ial background and the economic status of the family does have a very significant role to play, it does play a very si gnifi cant part generally speaking in the acade mic performance of students of school age levels, and that as many as - I believe he sa id 30 percent of students in the core area had been disclosed in a recent survey to have dropped out by Grade 9.

Well if that is the case, Sir, I put it to the Minister, is that not a very strong reason for rethinking the three Rs approach and for re-examiningJwhen you're engaged in this re-examination and re-evaluation, evaluation process, is that not a very strong reason for re-examining and re-evaluating the manner in which schools and educational programs in the City of Winnipeg are sup ported by this government in financ ial terms?

There is ample evid ence from the trustees of the Winnipeg School Division No. 1, from the Manitoba Asso ciation of School Trustees, from various other bodies , that the support in financ ial terms and in terms of real dol lars of this government for the public school system, the elementary and secondary school system in this province, has diminished by any standard on which you want to measure it, when we're looking at it in terms of real dollars during the pas t seven to eight yea rs , and the burden on the real property taxpayer, and in large part that means the property taxpayer in the City of Winnipeg, has inc reased and increased and inc reased to the point where the costs cannot now be met.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister on a point of order. MR. HANUS CHAK: I'm listening to the honourable member with great interest but I would like to know whether he is debating

(2) Evaluation, Research and Policy and Analysis or

(3) Financial Support Public Schools. If it's the latter then I would suggest to the honourable member that he reserve his comments until we reach that item. MR. CHAIRMAN: The point is well taken. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. S HERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I anticipated that point of order. I was hoping to get as much of it in as I could before the point of order was raised. I intend to go into it in detail when we get to the next item but I wanted to get partially into it on this item because we're talking about re-evaluation, re-examination, Sir.

I submit that when you're re-evaluating and re-examining, there's ample evidence to show that children in the core area, in the Inner City area are suff ering a diminished , a decline<\ a reduced standard of education and that this Minister and this government claim -- (In terjection) -- Well my colleague can speak for himself and does very well at it and I attempt to do the same for myself. That's the hallmark of the Conservative . Some of us are more skillful at it than others , Sir, but we all do our determined best.

Sir, the fact of the matter is that this government and this Minister have insisted that they are striving for equality of education opportunity. What we're discus s ing here is evaluation and assessment, and I'm asking the Minister whether there has been any evaluation or asses sment of whatever happened to the goal, the objective of equality of education opportunity. Be cause I submit to this Minister that there is less opportunity for a fair shot at education and education chances for many many youngsters, maybe the majority of the youngsters in the City of Winnipeg, than there was six, seven, ,

May 3, 1976 3205 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) • • • • • eight years ago. When the original Fonndation Program was lannched and structured it was structured to provide insofar as is possible that degree of equality of opportunity in the field of learning. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. The honourable member is starting to stray again back into (3) • Would he stick to Evaluati on. MR. SHERMAN: I think I've gone far beyond (3) , Mr. Chairman, As a matter of fact I think I've strayed far beyond (3) but I accept your admonition, Sir.

I will ask the Minis ter directly, what evaluation and assess ment is being done with respect to that lofty goal of equality of education opportunity for children in the Inner City of Winnipeg. Because the results have indicated very substantially, I think, and I doubt there'd be much argwnent anywhere on this side of this Hous e and perhaps not very much even from that side, that that goal is further away from attainment today than it was seven or eight years ago. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, if we 're going to talk about the equality of educational opportunity in terms of dollars and cents, in terms of the financial burden resting upon the shoulders of each individual taxpayer, I really do believe, Mr. Chairman, that that question could best be answered when we come to the next item in my Estimates, whenever that should occur. At that point in time, Mr. Chairman, I think that the evidence will indicate that we have not lost sight of that as one of our goals , that is the provision of equality of educational opportunity. I think that our grant structure will in fact reflect that. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Let me ask the Minister, Mr. Chairman, if I may, what his views and his rea ction is to that criticism that has come from public spokesmen, know ledgeable spokesmen, who have argued that with the direction being taken by the Depart ment of Education then, in terms of curriculum, and with the kind of nndefined emphasis on basics that exists at the present time that children in the core area, in the Inner City and in disadvantaged or less advantaged parts of the community are being short-changed by the system.

Is there any evaluation of what the present sort of drifting approach of the Department, with respect to curriculum , what effect that is having on Inner City, core city children ? Many spokesmen who - and as I referred to them the other day, they're more aligned politically with the Minister than they are with me - but they have received some attention lately in their charges that it is the working class child, the working class yonngster so-ca lled who gets hurt far worse by this sort of goalles s, drifting approach that the department is taking in curriculum than the student from the more affluent area.

Because it's the one in the disadvantaged area who need the basic skills to even give him or her half a chance to complete. If they're not getting those basic skills through a system that 's founded on the basics and the three "Rs" and those rudiments then they're the ones who are being the most badly hurt and the most badly short-changed. This I suggest is an argwnent that's been raised by social activists in the community who have had some experience in this field. I would appreciate the Minis ter's assessment of that charge. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, the Honourable Member for Fort Garry accuses the government of taking a goalles s, drifting approach to education and in particular to educational problems and concerns as they affect the core city area. But it's quite the contrary, Mr. Chairman. My department and the government is very much aware of the problems and needs of the core city area and hence is providing funding to meet and deal with problems common to it.

As I had indicated in this House in this committee last Friday , with reference to the Special Grant that was paid to the City of Winnipeg - and I tried to do it within the limits of rules of parliamentary debate, limiting me to debate of this resolution because it is a matter that does come up later - that it was the identification of problems of immigrant children, problems of migrant children, problems of children of families of low and lower socioeconomic levels , which necessitate the introduction and development of the very types of programs that we have there.

In the more affluent school division, in the place where you have a different societal makeup

3206 May 3, 1976 SUPPL Y - EDUCA TION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) • • • • • of a given community than what you have in a down town area, many of those problems don't exist. It becomes considerably simpler and easier for the teacher to proceed directly into the teaching of the basic skills. But let's not forge t, Mr.

Chairman, that in dealing with many of the pupils that we have to deal with in the downtown schools, that a considerable amount of work has to be done with the child to bring him up to the level at which you could proceed with the teaching of the basic skills in either one of the two offic ial languages in this country. So that we are very much aware of and our assis tance to the Winnipeg School Division, in particu lar, because it is the one that is saddled to the greatest extent with problems of this kind, it's in recognition of that fa ct that we have offe red it the additional fin ancial support. So that, Mr.

Chairman, certainly is not a drift ing, goalless approach to education. As I'v e said, quite the contrary, it's very much a recognition of the problems and needs in our school system and a recognition of our responsibility, the responsibility of the province to provide for those needs . MR. CHAJRMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Chairman, without in any way attempting to detract from the objectives and the goals that the Minister has just outlined as far as his depart ment is concerned in the need to provide equality of opportunity for education for all students in this province, I rise to not necessarily take issue but to present what might be perhaps another point of view in the argument that was presented a few moments ago by the Member for Fort Rouge.

If I understood him correctly or if I understood him clearly, he attempted to imply that private schools in this country were the property of the elite and that only people who came from wealthy fa milies were able to afford to send their students there and that also they had the opportunity of selecting from among the brightest students in the country. Well I'm not fam iliar with what goes on in St. John's Ravenscourt or some of the other private schools in this country but I am familiar with a couple of them that do not have that kind of criteria for admission.

One of them of course is located in Gretna, the Mennonite Collegiate. I doubt very much if the Member for Fort Rouge could accuse that particular school of catering only to those who had high incomes and were able to aff ord to send their children there. I'm a little more familiar with St. John's Cathedral Boys School in Selkirk. To suggest even for a moment that that particular school caters to high income famili es , or a certain level of student, is stretching the imagination a great deal. Students at the St.

John's Cathedral are admitted from all areas of this province as well as the United States and foreign countries, a more cosmopolitan group of students never existed anywhere in any institution. Many of them assist in paying their own tuition by the kind of money raising projects that the school engages in and it's done deliberately. It's done in order toteach the students something other than what can be taught from books. It's designed to teach them responsibility.

As a matter of fact the intention of the school is to fulfill what the school itself believes is a need in society today and that is the accepting of responsibility on the part of younger people. They believe that today, although there may be as much attention provided to the child in the home in the way of recreation and other forms of home education, it does not take the place of a sense of responsibility that comes with achieving and doing something for one's self. Along with a very high standard of academic education in that school, this sense of responsibility is taught them.

I don't know where else in any other private school or public schools that that is being taught. I think it's perhaps the reason for the degree of success that that particular school has had in producing students that are a credit to society. I don't want to measure the success of the students coming out of that school in terms of how many of them, or what percentage of them proceed on to university because I don't think that that percentage is all that great.

But the fact that the students are taught to ac:cept responsibility and know how to handle responsibility is all part of the kind of education that is taught in St. John's Cathedral. I happen to know also that they don't come from wealthy fami lies. They, to a large extent, will accept students of people who are somewhat dis advantaged and who feel their children require something

May 3, 1976 3207 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) • • • extra and something special in the way of discipline and a sense of responsibility . I know that there are stories that have been written about the school that tend to create the impression that it's a very spartan and very 18th Cen tury type of institu tion, but I don't think it's anything of the sort. Education today is under severe criticism not only in this country, not only in this province but throughout the world and I don't think one would regard Marshall McLuhan as a person who has any 18th or 19th Century ideas about any sub ject.

What he has to say about Canadian educ ation, he calls it pathetic crap, as outlined in an

article in the April 10 edition of the Canadian Weekend. McLuhan went on to say that he 's a publi c advocate of interdisciplinarian mu ltimedia educ ation, privately suppo rts the decision of a friend to send his kids off to Ireland to sweat it out in the traditional classically-based schools where students are made to work seven days a week with no TV and only a few hours off on Sunday for recreation. He goes on to point out that a good education today means leaving the country, getting out. He said fifteen years from now all the great writers will be people who got their education ou tside of Canada.

The sort of crap they peddle here in Toronto is pathetic - and I use the other province because I don't want the Minister to think that I'm levelling this argument against him in isolation. It 's a general malaise that affects all of the western world today. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour having arrived for Private Members' Hour , in accordance with Rule 19(2) , I'm leaving the Chair to return at 8 p.m. this evening.

3208 May 3, 1976 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAYS MR. CHAffiMAN: Order please. There being a quorum the committee will come to order. I would direct the attention of honourable members to page 35 in their Estimates books. Reso lution 70, the Motor Vehicle Branch. (

a) Management Services.

(1) Salaries- pass. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, just when we finished I believe we were being questioned by the Member from La Ver endrye in connection with juveniles and their licenses and their registration, and I was wondering if you'd care to ma ke some r�emarks on the comments that the Member from La Verendrye made just at that tim e. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. As I mentioned, we are on Management Services de hate having to do with the licensing and safety, and the Board should come later under (b) (

c) or (d). I wonder if maybe we could pass (

a) and then get on to the other items. Resol ution 70( a)(l)-- pass; (a)(2) --pass; (a)--pass. Res olution 70 (

b) Driver Licensing and Vehicle Registration. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDFRSON: Mr. Chairman, I suppose the Minister heard the remarks of the Member for La Verendrye the other day and I was just wishing he would comment on the se and the regulations regarding juveniles and the way they are charged with their of fences and so forth. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, I believe there was, if not an entire answer , there was at least a partial answer given.

However, perhaps what we should do is - the member 's here now, if he wants to pursue that perhaps we can - we're talking about the Member for La Veren drye, in your absence, but now that you're here , the Member from Pembina mentioned something about the question you had with regard to juvenile drivers and the likes and I thought what we had partially answered the question Friday. Now if not, perhaps we can pursue it a little further. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Yes, I think it was mentioned at that time.

The point that I was trying to make is about the maximum fine for a juvenile under - who gets caught under • 08 is fined $25 where a regular adult is fined $25 0, and we were just questioning that. Here you have a young person who No. 1, shouldn't be drinking at all, is under the age, shouldn't even be purchasing the alcohol, so he more or less has two infractions at the same time and yet is penalized a lot less than the adult person is. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 70 (b). The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR .

HENDERSON: Since we're questioning that, how many demerit points would that juvenile get in his license for that case ? The same as another individual? MR . CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BURTNIAK: Well, it doesn't really matter whether the indi<Jidual is juvenile or an adult. If it is reported he 'll get automatically slapped with 10 points , regardless of whether he is juvenile or not. The same if it's reported. The same as adult. And the suspension period, by the way, is the same also. It applies to everybody equally. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, I wasn't here Fr iday night to hear some of this conversation. I didn't realize that the penalty is $25 for, say, a 16 year old as opposed to say $15 0 to $200 for an adult. Can you indicate why� that difference because he's a 16 year old? MR. BURTNIAK: Under the Juvenile Act that is the maximum that can be levied against a juvenile. MR. EINARSON: Right. Okay. Mr. Chairman, are we on driver licensing? I would like to ask the Minister. there's one problem here in regards to where a man loses his license because of consuming alcohol over • 08. He works for the municipality.

He is not allowed to drive any of the patrols or what have you, that he 's employed by the munici· pality. And there's been some, I think some misunderstanding, by some police. One RCMP will say that he can drive the patrol if he 's employed by a municipal councillor, another police will say he cannot. I would like to know if the Minister could give me som1 indication just where do we stand on that particular subject? MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, I don't know what practice or criteria or rules - e

May 3, 1976 3209 SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS (MR. BURTNIAK cont'd) • • • • • we have established here in committee, but that is a pretty detailed sort of a question. And when I refer to rules of the committee, I'm ask ing, because I was not here last year unfortunately so I don't know what has been laid down, but is it ••• I'm asking, Mr. Chairman, as Chairman , whether you will permit the Registrar because of the fact that it is a detailed question, to reply to that question, or is it the Deputy Minister ? MR . CHAIRMAN: Under our rules only the Minister is allowed to reply to ques tions from members.

The staff may advise the Minister, but may not reply directly. Tlle Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I had a case here where this man was employed by the municipality and he lost his license, and I'm given to understand that he's made application through the Appeal Board and so on, he's appealed his application to get a worker's permit to be able to operate a municipal maint2iner or patrol.

Now, it was told to him on one particular situation where he had to have his driver's license in order that he could get a license or even worker's license to operate that municipal patrol, or any piece of equipment that is being operated or used by a municipality. Now one RCMP said he didn't have a license to operate that municipal equipment at all, another one said he did, and that's the point of contention here, Mr. Chairman. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the question.

I'm wondering if it will be agreeable with the honourable member that rather than trying to get the answer through the staff now, if it would be agreeable if I would ask the Registrar to prepare the answer and give it to the honourable member, or even all the members of the committee , within the next day or so. Is that agreeable or would you insist to have it now ? MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman , I thank the Minister for his comments there I think that it 's a complicated one, and I would appreciate that we have some - all I'm asking for is some understanding.

I've had this problem, and this could h!J.ppen- in many other areas in the Province of Manitoba, and I would like to have some specific clarifi-· cation as to just what is the score so far as these people are concerned. When they lose their license to be able to drive a car, can they operate a municipal patrol or any piece of equipment without a driver's license ? I prefer to accept the Minister's decision, that' s acceptable to me. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR . MORRIS McGREGOR (Virden): Mr.

Chairman, I just would wonder if we shouldn't put the question to have the Registrar answer these questions, because it is a complicated department. We know he's a professional, he's been there a long time , and maybe the committee could gain a lot in having the questions answered directly from the Registrar now rather than as we get along in other departments. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. We are working under House rules and not under Committee rules and a committee does not have the authority to overturn House rules. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. WARREN STEEN (Crescentwood) : Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Minister. Driver Licensing and Vehicle Registration with salaries of $668, 500. Is this a service that is provided partly for the Public Automobile Insurance Corporation, and does the Motor Vehicle Branch receive a reba te or a refund from the Public Insurance Corporation for handling driver registration for the:jll ? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BURTNIAK: No, that's all right. I would think it would be all right for the Minister of MPIC to respond at this point, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of MPIC. HON.

BILLIE URUSKI (Minister of Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation) (St. George): Thank you , Mr. Chairman. For this specific estimate , there is a cost that MPIC pays to MVB for handling the portion of the drivers' licenses in which they collect the insurance fees on the drivers' licenses, and vice versa the MVB pays aver to MPIC an agreed amount for every transaction that MPIC handles on the Motor Vehicle registration side • MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood.

3210 May 3, 1976 SUPPLY - IDGHWAYS MR. STEEN: Through you to the Minister of Public Insurance. Can he give me an idea of what fi gures - we 're looking at 600 and some odd thousand dollars here - is 25 percent of that work done for the Public Insurance Corporation, or 5 percent, or what? MR. URUSKI: Approximately 20 percent for the drivers' licenses. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembi na. MR . HENDERSON : Mr.

Chairman, under Vehicle Registration, I' ve had a complaint come in to me about where the license plates are, that there are no license plates on the back of these truck boxes that are hauling gravel, that the license plates are on the front . MR. BURTNIAK: The trailer, or the • • • ? MR. HENDE RSON: On the trailers . The way I got this complaint was that somebody had had a stone come off of one of these vehicles and it went right into their windshield and they couldn't even get the license from the vehicle when they followed it because it wasn't displayed.

Like it's in the upper part of it I guess, or else there is not one at all at the back, I don't know which way it is . And he claimed this way1 when he goes to Autopac to get it fixe d he has to pay so much because he can't blame it on anybody else because he hasn't got the licence. So I was wondering, would you comment on that? MR . URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, that is quite true, that sometimes it is very diff icult to very quickly spot the licence plate on a vehicle of that type because it does not carry the plate on the box but rather on the tractor itself. So sometimes it does become in visible, so to speak.

When the box covers the front of the tractor. so you can not see the license . Of course we have discus sed this situation, this type of problem before , and when you look at it you get six of one and half a dozen of another. Because what happens if you have the plate in such places where it might be easily visible, the ideal would be the back of the truck box; buCo:ri-the gravel trucks, or any other vehicle of this type, that licence plate would get dirty and bent and def aced, that in no time flat you would not be able to recognize or be able to read the number in most cases anyway.

So, I realize that it is not the most conspicuous place to have the plate, but that's the best we could think of at the present time. I realize that this has caused problems at times to any individual who wants to get the licence number of that particular vehicle, sometimes it is diff icult for him to read it, but it would be just as difficult if it were somewhere else I would think. MR. HENDE RSON: Well, Mr.

Chairman, he was also claiming that because it is a fact that he couldn't get the licence plate when he went to Autopac that he had to pay more on his own bill because he was considered partly to blame, and if he could have been able to get the licence plate I guess he wouldn't have. So I was hoping that some thing could be worked out to take care of this • MR . URUSKI: That certainly is possible, but, there always could be a dispute on the other party's part which is certainly open to him to dis pute the liability that he or she was in fact liable for the cause of that stone flying off that truck.

So that while the licence number may have been obtained, there still could be a denial of liability on the part of the other motorist. MR . HENDERSON: Well, I just don't like to give up on the ship. Because in this case the person said they were coming behind, they knew it was a stone off the vehicl� in front and they felt they'd have no bother if they could have got his plates, proven the whole thing. But the only way would be to keep following him forever and in that dust and that you can't do it. And I was just hoping that something could be worked out.

Some people haven't got windshield insurance on at all and if something like this happens they'vE got to pay a lot more money, their insurance doesn't cover them very well for -something like this. --(Interjection)-- Well, they have to pay, have to pay the first $50 .0 0. I'm talking about the first $50.0 0 they have to pay themselves. MR . URUSKI: If he has extension insurance - of course then we're getting into the insurance aspect, Mr . Chairman, we'll have a chance to go at that on Thursday - but if he has extension insurance, his comprehensive deductible on a passenger car would be $25 .0 0. e e

May 3, 197 6 3211 SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS MR. HENDERSON: And he has to pay that $25 .00 and he has to go to all the trouble and be without his car. He wa s complaining about that. Well, if he could prove the fellow was at fault he wouldn' t have to pay anything, this is the point. And because he can't get the licence he can't prove the other fellow was at fault and so he has to pay and this is the problem. MR. BURTNI AK: We recognize that fact. MR. HENDERSON: Well if you're trying to work out something and haven't been able to do it, I do n't suppose I can suggest anything.

I just hope you could work out something because I believe that there are probably many people like this . I know a couple of times I've been coming along behind a truck and I think myself in one case it was just a stone that had stuck in a tire and then it came out later on and all of a sudden there's qu ite a bang on your windshield and you can't do anything about it. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the concern of the Member for Pembina and I think he 's being too modest.

I think if he has any suggestions in regard to the placing of licence plates on these kind of vehicles , or whatever, I would sugg est that we would be only too glad to hear them. MR. HENDERSON: That was all that I have under there. I think probably when we come down to Licence Suspension there'll be more ques tions . This is Licence Registration, and I don't think this • • • MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, I see this year that we have our new licence plates and they're all starting with three letters and then followed by three numbers .

Is this for a computer purpos e? That's que stion one. Question two is , what is the lifespan of the licences ? You will go with this plate for how many years? That's the two ques tions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BURTNI AK: Mr. Chairman, so far as the first qu estion is concerned, the three letters and three num bers , that is correct, that is because of the compute rs. This has become almost standard all across Canada and the United States, and I suppos e some other areas, but especially in the North American Continent, because of computers .

So you 'll notice that most of the States in the United States and the provinces in Canada all have gone to that three nunib er, three .letters. The other qu estion was the lifespan of the licence plate. As you know they are reflectorized. They do cost a little bit more because of the ref lectorization than they would without being reflectorized and we have the assurance as a matter of fact, from the manufactu rer, that they will be able to last six years.

Mind you there are cases where , I gue ss it 's up to the individual hi:inself, where the licence plate is pretty badly defaced or bent and the likes of that - muti lated, that's the word I was looking for, thank you - then I suppose the onus would be on him to have that plate replaced. But all things being equal they should last - at least we have the assuranc e that they should last at least six years. As a matter of fact they say possibly even seven but we'll have to make that decision, or whoever is in government at that time will have to make that decision when we reach that point. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Hopefully, Mr. Chairman, we'll be making that decision for them. Mr. Chairman, throu gh you to the Minister. These plates are manufactured privately and I believe - am I correct in that ? If I am , I believe that Manitoba was one of the first provinces to get away from using people in the penal reform institutions for manufacturing plates. Is this a standard move in most provinces ? MR. BURTNIAK : I am informed that that is correct, sir. MR.

STEEN: Are other provinces and states getting away from using penitentiary personnel to manufacture them and going to private manufacturing concerns? MR. BURTNIAK: That's correct. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. PHILIP M. PETURSSON (Wellington): ••• que stion that the Member for Pembina raised and I had raised it before because I thought he was describing the accident that I had, with my windshield broken. It 's the licence plate, for one thing,

3212 May 3, 19 76 SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS (MR. PETURSSON cont'd) ••••• that the trucks do not display and they not only don't display licence plates they display no marks of identifi cation by which a truck can be identified . When I reported my accident to the Mounted Police at Grand Beach - I was on Hi ghway 59 - and the truck obviously was coming south from the Gull Lake quarri

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-3-96
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 3rd hansardpdf 96.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f538d9e514dccdbe32e303ae3a5f6f58a54d85ae

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