role="main" class="main-container container js-quickedit-main-content" id="main-content">

November 2, 2016

41st Parliament, 2nd Session

< Previous sitting day

Next sitting day >

Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcript 2016-Nov-02 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Wednesday 2 November 2016 Mercredi 2 novembre 2016

Election Statute Law Amendment Act, 2016 / Loi de 2016 modifiant des lois en ce qui concerne les élections

Introduction of Visitors

Remembrance Week Act, 2016 / Loi de 2016 sur la semaine du Souvenir

Remembrance Week Act, 2016 / Loi de 2016 sur la semaine du Souvenir

Oral Questions

By-election in Sudbury

By-election in Sudbury

By-election in Sudbury

By-election in Sudbury

By-election in Sudbury

By-election in Sudbury

Seniors

By-election in Sudbury

Long-term care

Economic development

By-election in Sudbury

By-election in Sudbury

Northern Ontario film industry

By-election in Sudbury

Consumer protection

By-election in Sudbury

Financial literacy

By-election in Sudbury

Hospital services

By-election in Sudbury

Reception

Introduction of Visitors

Members’ Statements

Wilfrid Laurier University

Julianne Miszk

Greenbelt

Human trafficking

Gentlemen’s Knitting Challenge

Mississauga Board of Chinese Professionals and Businesses

Volunteers

Long-term care

Robert Ansley Cavanagh

Annual report, Ombudsman

Reports by Committees

Standing Committee on Regulations and Private Bills

Standing Committee on Social Policy

Introduction of Bills

Katelynn’s Principle Act (Decisions Affecting Children), 2016 / Loi de 2016 sur le Principe de Katelynn (décisions concernant des enfants)

Delegated Administrative Authorities Accountability and Transparency Act, 2016 / Loi de 2016 sur la responsabilisation et la transparence Des organismes d’application délégataires

Statements by the Ministry and Responses

Immigration francophone / Francophone immigration

Petitions

Hydro rates

Tuition

School closures

Curriculum

Hydro rates

Privatization of public assets

Government services

Agri-food industry

Lyme disease

Property taxation

Automotive dealers

Orders of the Day

Aggregate Resources and Mining Modernization Act, 2016 / Loi de 2016 sur la modernisation des secteurs des ressources en agrégats et des mines

Royal assent / Sanction royale

Aggregate Resources and Mining Modernization Act, 2016 / Loi de 2016 sur la modernisation des secteurs des ressources en agrégats et des mines

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

Election Statute Law Amendment Act, 2016 / Loi de 2016 modifiant des lois en ce qui concerne les élections

Resuming the debate adjourned on November 1, 2016, on the motion for second reading of the following bill:

Bill 45,

An Act to amend certain Acts with respect to provincial elections / Projet de loi 45, Loi visant à modifier certaines lois en ce qui concerne les élections provinciales.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate?

Hon. Laura Albanese: I’m pleased to rise this morning to add my voice to Bill 45, the Election Statute Law Amendment Act. In Ontario, we are facing very real challenges when it comes to voter turnout. In the 2014 election, less than 52% of people voted. When it comes to young people, the number is even lower. In the last election, only 34% of youth cast a ballot. We need to address this challenge and encourage more people to participate in their democracy.

That is why we have introduced a bill that would, if passed, modernize the voting process, better engage people and make it easier for them to vote. Most of our proposals were based on the recommendations from Ontario’s Chief Electoral Officer. We hope that the opposition will support this bill that will help to modernize Ontario’s election system.

As was said by the Attorney General in his initial speech, we want to harness that sense of opportunity and enthusiasm in young people and get them invested in the democratic process early on. If passed, this bill would require the Chief Electoral Officer to create a provisional voter register which 16- and 17-year-olds, future eligible voters, could join before they reach voting age. Once they turn 18 and are of legal age to vote, their information would be automatically transferred to the permanent register of electors.

I believe that this move would have several positive effects. Our bill would increase the number of young, eligible voters who are registered as voters. They are currently the least likely group of any age to vote. It would also make the voting process even simpler on election day. This change would also give Elections Ontario more opportunity to reach out to young people before they reach the voting age and give youth a concrete action that they could take in response: They could sign up.

When the Chief Electoral Officer recommended this measure, he expressed an interest in working with more high schools to promote education and awareness, among other initiatives. Our government welcomes this effort, and we look forward to seeing what he and his team can come up with.

To be absolutely clear, this change would not change the legal voting age in Ontario. That would remain 18 years of age. We are simply looking to empower Ontarians at an early age to participate in the democratic process.

Mr. Speaker, another component of this bill involves the rules for candidates and canvassers around accessing apartment buildings, condos and other multiple-residence buildings. According to existing rules, candidates and their representatives—

Interjection.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thanks so much.

Continue.

Hon. Laura Albanese: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

However, candidates and canvassers, when they are faced with uncooperative landlords or condominium associations who won’t give them access to the buildings, currently have very little recourse. There’s really not much they can do. We see that happening especially in urban centres, where we have ridings with many buildings, many condominiums. I think this is a common experience for members of the Legislature and other candidates. This is a problem. Canvassing can be a valuable tool in keeping voters informed and engaged, as you know, Mr. Speaker.

For voters who only engage with the elections through news media, it can be easy to feel removed from the decision-making process and even, at times, disenfranchised. At the same time, one of the biggest challenges currently facing candidates, parties and election officials alike is keeping voters’ attention.

Politics, as you know, is often met with cynicism and even indifference. We need to be encouraging a personal approach whenever that is possible. That is why this bill proposes to give the Chief Electoral Officer the ability to enforce the rights of access for candidates and their representatives by imposing administrative penalties. The local returning officer would have the power to fine a building owner or condominium corporation if a canvasser that is at least 18 years of age was refused access to their building within 24 hours of it being requested.

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): There are a lot of sidebars going on, and I can hardly hear the minister. It’s not just on the opposition side, but on their own side—ministers talking in front of her while she’s talking. Thank you, people.

Continue.

Hon. Laura Albanese: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I was saying, on election day, the 24-hour period would no longer apply, and access would have to be granted immediately.

Our government believes that these rules would better support candidates and canvassers to engage with more voters in their communities.

It is understandable that the residents of these buildings might have concerns about canvassers being allowed into their building. They might worry about their privacy, for example. As with any other situation in which canvassers are going door to door, people have no obligation to speak to them. We want to be respectful of these concerns, and I understand that Elections Ontario plans to do outreach to educate people about their rights and obligations regarding canvassing in affected buildings.

Mr. Speaker, this bill would also allow for the use of certain voting technology in provincial elections, which will enable the Chief Electoral Officer to implement his proposed technology-enabled staffing model. Under the current system, finding a voter on the list and giving them their ballot is done manually. This requires the efforts of both a poll clerk and a deputy returning officer. At the end of the day, votes are also counted by hand. As a result, Elections Ontario requires a lot of staff to conduct an election. In the 2014 general election, for example, approximately 76,000 temporary staff were required.

By introducing technology to replace both of these functions, the Chief Electoral Officer estimates that Elections Ontario could reduce its staffing requirements by 41%. That’s a significant step toward improving the efficiency of our election process.

The new staffing model, and the process that was piloted under this model, also provided a more streamlined and positive experience for voters. A whopping 96% of voters who were polled after voting with the technology-enabled model thought that the process was easy with the new technology. Some 91% were in support of the technology being used in future elections.

The remarkable thing about this is how much value we’ll be able to get out of two fairly straightforward technologies.

One of these technologies, the e-poll book, replaces the many, many pages of names—and I’m talking about a lot of names on hard-copy pages—that officials currently have to search through to find any given voter. Instead, they could just scan the voter’s notice of registration card. The system would find the voter’s name in a fraction of a second and print their ballot. This would save everyone’s time and keep everything running smoothly for election officials.

The other tool that’s used here is a vote tabulator, which quickly and accurately would count the paper ballot. Votes at the pilot locations had been counted and results were posted on Elections Ontario’s website within only 30 minutes from the close of the polls. That is a third of the time—a third of the time—that it took polling locations operating under the current model.

Our government’s bill would also make it easier for people to get to polling stations by moving the scheduled election date from fall to spring to take advantage of the longer daylight hours and the warmer weather. However, this also means that it’s important to pass all of these measures in a timely manner so that we can give enough time to Elections Ontario to implement them before the new election date. That is why our government is hoping to have our proposals, if passed, take effect by the beginning of next year, in time for the 2018 election.

I support these changes. I believe that it is time to modernize our electoral system. Keeping up with the times makes it easier for the people who we’re trying to engage in the process.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Todd Smith: Good morning, Mr. Speaker. It’s a beautiful Wednesday morning out there—kind of mild. It’s actually quite warm inside Queen’s Park today, but it’s nice in the chamber. I’m glad to see you’re in a good mood today.

This is a bill that’s very important because I think there’s a lot of modernization that does need to occur when it comes to our electoral system. There are a number of different issues involved in this bill when it talks about bringing in new technology. We’ve used the new technology in the most recent by-elections that we’ve had here in Ontario. I think, for the most part, the technology has worked extremely well. What we want to do is make sure that we encourage the residents of Ontario who are eligible to vote to get out to the polls and vote and make it as easy as we possibly can for them to vote in our elections. After all, it is our democratic right to do so.

But we’ve seen a lot of things around here, when it comes to this government in power, that are actually banning the democratic process, or at least hurting the democratic process in Ontario. Just yesterday, we saw charges laid against Liberal election operatives. I know it’s concerning for a lot of people out there. It’s concerning that these officials—officials who are in the Premier’s office—then get promoted to work on the central campaign. These are serious, serious charges that need to be dealt with. We need the Premier to answer—

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Speaker, point of order.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): You don’t have to yell at me. I was in conversation. Yes, what can I do for you?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I tried for some time to get your attention, Speaker.

I just want to remind the member that speaking to the bill is what we’re here to do today.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Actually—thank you for your point of order—I feel that the member is in line because he is discussing elections, and some of the stuff that went on was involved with elections. Thank you.

Continue.

Mr. Todd Smith: I just want to wrap up by saying that I think it’s important that we do modernize the system and that we protect the democracy that we covet here in Ontario.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Percy Hatfield: I see some military personnel in the gallery today. Thank you for your service. Thank you for coming to Queen’s Park today.

Speaker, we’re hearing a lot these days about trying to encourage a larger voter turnout, but I see nothing in this bill that, let alone Internet voting, would allow us to vote over the telephone, for example. Of municipalities in Ontario, 97 of the 444 had Internet voting in the last municipal election. A lot of them do it with telephone voting as well, or paper ballots and polling stations—nothing in here.

I know that in the town of Leamington, they had Internet and telephone voting methods for municipal and school board elections in 2014. Tecumseh just did a by-election to replace my friend ward 2 councillor Mike Rohrer, who passed away suddenly and unexpectedly a few months ago. Congratulations to our new councillor, Bill Altenhof. The ward 2 turnout, using telephone and Internet voting in the by-election, was 42%. During the general election in 2014, Tecumseh’s ward 2 had a voter turnout of 58%, compared to the town’s average of 52.5%. So the by-election turnout of 42% was great, compared to that of by-election turnouts elsewhere.

People are easily engaged and encouraged to vote when you make it easy and convenient for them to do so. That’s why I’m surprised that when it comes to technology, we’re only talking about counting ballots with vote tabulators in this bill, as opposed to the different ways we could make it easier for people across Ontario to cast a ballot.

I would encourage, when this bill gets to committee, the Wynne Liberals to finally take it upon themselves to look at the technology, embrace the technology and do what municipalities in Ontario have been doing since 2003.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Deputy Premier.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Well, thank you, Speaker, and good morning. I really want to take this opportunity to talk about voter turnout, particularly youth voter turnout.

I often say to young people that if they voted in the same proportion as their parents and grandparents, our political platforms might look a little bit different. You see, voter turnout is not much more than 50% now, but youth turnout is only 34%. Only one in three young people are voting. That’s just not a good thing, because their thoughts, their opinions, their ideas are not as front-of-mind for people putting together the platforms as they should be. So there’s huge untapped political power in our young people.

What this bill does is allow 16- and 17-year-olds to pre-register so that when they turn 18, they will automatically go on the voters list. It means Elections Ontario will be able to communicate with them.

Speaker, I think we all have to turn our attention to how we can increase voter turnout amongst young people in particular: encouraging political involvement, inviting young people to be part of our campaigns, inviting young people to be part of a community of interest that we proactively meet in our communities. That’s what we need to do.

This bill alone is not going to solve that problem, but it is a step in the right direction. I urge all members to think about how they can increase voter participation amongst young people, amongst everyone, and, as I say, support this bill because it does move us in the right direction.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: I appreciate the opportunity to chat. I do have some time later on this morning to chat about something in detail, and when I discuss this bill, I do want to talk about the Far North Electoral Boundaries Commission. I’m going to spend my time later really digging into that, because it’s something that perhaps a lot of people in the GTHA would not be aware of. I’m going to take my time then to chat about the Far North and northern Ontario and the implications of this. So I’m going to use that time then.

In the time I have now, I do want to talk about the voting day itself. It is proposed to be moved to the first Thursday in June. Speaker, in general, none of this bill really has anything to do with voter turnout—with affecting a positive voter turnout.

I want to focus on that Thursday in June, the 7th, one year, seven months and five or six days from now. That will mean, because there is an opportunity for the Auditor General to report to the Legislature six months before an election day with her audit of our numbers, that moving the date of the election to June 7 precludes the auditor from coming forward with an audit. We will not have an audit of the government’s numbers before this election.

Mr. Todd Smith: I’m sure that’s just a coincidence.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Yes, I’m sure it’s a coincidence, as well.

That’s alarming, Speaker. There is no way, physically, technically or mathematically, for the auditor to do that.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration has two minutes.

Hon. Laura Albanese: I want to thank all of the members who commented, specifically the member from Prince Edward–Hastings. He spoke about encouraging people to participate in elections and making it easier in general for residents to vote and modernizing the system. I’m glad to hear that he’s in agreement with that.

The member from Windsor–Tecumseh spoke about telephone voting and Internet voting, which are all great ideas.

Again, as our Deputy Premier and MPP for London North Centre said, I see this as a step in the right direction. I know it doesn’t speak specifically to those issues, but most of the proposals were recommendations from our Chief Electoral Officer, and he is the province’s electoral authority. If we can start modernizing the system, I’m sure that we’ll look at other initiatives that are already being used in some municipalities, as you indicated.

The fact that only one in three young people are voting at the moment is an issue. We want to engage the new generations and not take what we have, this precious democracy, for granted. We have to engage them earlier, perhaps. I think that the idea of pre-registering them before they finish school may spark their interest and hopefully will get more of them interested in finding out what’s going on in elections and polls, because they will feel that they will have the right to vote soon.

I also want to thank the MPP for Nipissing. He did specify that he is going to speak more about the provisions for northern Ontario. I look forward to hearing what he has to say in regard to that.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Mr. John Yakabuski: It’s a pleasure to join the debate on Bill 45 this morning. I had the opportunity in 1975, after I turned 18, to register my first vote on September 18, 1975, and I had the pleasure and the honour of voting for my father in the provincial election of that year. After that vote, I never missed another one, be it federal, provincial or municipal. I never missed a vote, because I considered it not only my right and privilege but a responsibility, as a citizen of this wonderful, great country, to vote whenever I was given the opportunity to do so. I think that if people thought that way, we would have a much higher voter turnout.

Our voter turnouts are low primarily because we do not motivate the voter to get out and vote. Our voter turnouts keep dropping, and there’s nothing in this bill, including the early registration of young people—which I think is a good thing to do—that is actually going to encourage people to get out and vote.

I want to talk about a young man—I’ll get back to this a little later; I don’t know how much time I’ll have. On Friday evening, I was at the Warden’s Banquet in Renfrew county. Warden Peter Emon, after a four-year term, will not be standing for warden this year. He’s also finishing up this year as chairman of the Eastern Ontario Wardens’ Caucus. He has been a tremendous Renfrew county representative for the past four years and we’re very proud of the work that Peter has done. I want to congratulate him and thank him for the commitment that he made not only to the people of Renfrew county, but also to the people of eastern Ontario as the chair of the Eastern Ontario Wardens’ Caucus.

But at that wardens’ banquet, we were piped in by a young man from Renfrew, Emilio Sebastian, 16 years old, playing the bagpipes and piping us in. That’s probably not that unique. But what was unique was chatting with Emilio and finding out that he and his family came here from Colombia.

Emilio wants to be a politician, and yes, we all wonder about that sometimes. However, I think what motivates Emilio—and having met him there, I told him I want to have a sit-down with him at some point, because I believe that it will be an interesting opportunity for both of us to bounce some things off one another. But I would believe something that might motivate Emilio is the difference in our political system versus the one in Colombia, as he and his family probably see.

Ours is not perfect. Let’s not kid ourselves. But our democracy is strong and our democracy works, unlike the systems in many other countries. So I think people who come from other parts of the world look at our system and say, “God bless Canada. How fortunate they are to have a system that allows people to vote freely, vote with their conscience and vote in the way that they believe best serves the interests of their country and their community.”

That isn’t always the case in every other country—not every other country, I should say, but in many countries. In many countries, every time there’s an election, the headlines are about the corruption that has taken place during that voting process. We fortunately don’t have that kind of an issue in the voting process here. Our elections, as much as we can possibly understand or show, are run in a fair and legal and honest manner. And I think that’s very, very important.

So people coming from other countries would look at our system and say, “It’s wonderful that we have a system that works here.” And I think it is important that we are continuously upgrading and updating the system that works. I see our military men and the folks in the gallery here today, and it is much to their credit that we have a political system in this country and in the western democracies that works, because of the sacrifices that they and those before them have made.

But I do believe it is important that we are continuously updating our systems to mesh with the times that we are living in. One of the changes that is proposed in this bill is voting machines or voting tabulators, or whatever you want to call them. I think that’s a great idea. I think there’s no reason why people should wait until three hours after the polls are closed to be able to determine who they’ve elected as their provincial representative here in the province of Ontario or in any given riding.

Speaker, I’m sure the people in Hamilton East–Stoney Creek would like to know as soon as possible who their representative is. I know the people in my riding of Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke would want to know as quickly as possible as well, so those changes I support, absolutely. But I want to point out that when we have tried to make changes in our system to encourage people to vote, we have failed every time—we have failed every time. In 2011, we had 10 days of advance-poll voting in Ontario and turnout dropped dramatically. We make it as convenient as possible to vote, but the turnout drops.

You have to ask yourselves, what are we doing as parliamentarians—not just as parliamentarians, but what are we doing as politicians—that discourages people from getting out and exercising their democratic right?

In my opinion, the two main reasons people will vote are the players in the game, who are primarily the party leaders of the day, and the issues that are being debated during that election campaign. They’re not voting because we make the hours longer. We’ve extended the hours of voting; voter turnout goes down. We used to end at eight o’clock; election polls shut down at eight o’clock. Now they’re nine o’clock, and the voting turnout doesn’t go up. We give more days for advance polls, and the voting turnout doesn’t go up. It’s what happens during those campaigns: who the primary combatants are, what their message is and the issues of the day.

If the voter is motivated to get out and vote, they will vote. It’s not changing rules. It’s not making it easier. It’s not giving them a ride. You could give out free gift certificates; if they’re not motivated to get out and vote—I know the Premier likes gift cards. I remember, during the ice storm in Toronto, she was handing them out like candy floss. But if you don’t motivate the voters to vote, they won’t be getting out to vote. It’s up to the leaders and it’s up to the policy platform people to put out issues and develop platforms that motivate the voters so that they’re interested in voting.

Having said that, I know that the young man I spoke about, Emilio Sebastian from Renfrew, will be getting out to vote as soon as he can. He’s 16 years old. I’m sure he’ll be one of those early registrants, because he’ll want to be on that permanent voters list as early as possible. I’m just hoping that he doesn’t get too interested in politics too soon because I’d like to have a little more time here myself. I know that he’s a motivated young man. Maybe I can get him to work on my team, in the meantime, as he prepares for someday, possibly, seeking election to this Legislature himself or some other elected body.

I do want to see that kind of interest. The young people are the ones that will be the leaders of tomorrow. To have them motivated to be interested is a wonderful thing. I’m glad that a young man like Emilio shows that interest.

I’m sure some of the pages here, who would be younger than him, are already cultivating a political interest themselves. That’s one of the reasons that they would have applied to be a page in this chamber: because they have an interest in the political system and the political to-and-fro that goes on in this chamber and in how the whole system works. We want to have our young people interested and committed to being part of the system—not just something on the periphery, on the outside, where we talk about young people, but then they never go out and vote.

It’s up to us. It’s up to us to make sure that our leaders and the issues that we talk about in the campaign are the ones that motivate young people and people of all ages to get out and vote. That’s how we’re going to increase the voter turnout in elections. Back in my dad’s day, when he was first elected in 1963, we would have had 70%—well, in Renfrew county we would have had 80%, but all across Ontario, it would have been somewhere in the high sixties or seventies. We need to get back there; 100% would be the goal.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Percy Hatfield: It’s always a pleasure to follow the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke. He mentioned our military veterans in the chamber today. Again, welcome to all of you, and thank you for your service. I see a lot of members of the Legion up there. As a proud 30-year member of Branch 255 up in Windsor, I say welcome to my Legion comrades as well.

The member also spoke about Peter Emon, the warden of Renfrew and the chair of the eastern wardens’ caucus. I would like to echo the member’s comments of what a great job Peter has done for eastern Ontario with the wardens’ caucus. Also, he’s been a very strong voice for municipal representatives right across Ontario.

The member talked about the vote tabulators. They used them in the by-election in Whitby–Oshawa, and they got an early result. I see nothing wrong with that. They want to spread the easy way of counting ballots across Ontario into all of our ridings, and I see nothing wrong with that. Of course, the downside of that—like when you’re in factory and you replace workers with robots—is that you don’t have as many people working. Many of us know dozens of people who like to earn a few extra dollars during an election by working as poll clerks or whatever during the election.

There aren’t going to be as many when we go to vote tabulators. A lot of people who used to enjoy a few extra dollars won’t be able to get them.

So my suggestion to the Wynne Liberals is to take all of those people, turn them into enumerators, get them out into the ridings, and come up with a voters list that actually means something. Right now, the voters list is a piece of—it’s not worth the paper it’s printed on, Speaker, as you well know. It’s not worth taking it to the outhouse and using it; it is useless. We need to improve that. Let’s use the people who won’t be in the polling stations and get them to update the voters list.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you to the member. The member was very descriptive.

The Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs.

Hon. Jeff Leal: I did listen intently to the remarks this morning from my colleague the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke. I too would like to welcome our veterans here today.

If I can digress for a moment: in terms of Bill 45, it was the great sacrifices of the veterans that allow us the great privilege to serve in public life. I just want to note that when I had the opportunity to be in Hong Kong in April 2015, there was a young man from Pembroke, Ontario. His name was Private Dupont. He served with the Royal Rifles of Canada. He joined that regiment in September 1939 at 16 years of age. When I visited his marker, he was killed in Hong Kong at 18 years of age, on Christmas Eve, to be exact, December 24, 1941. I think all of us should take the time to remember that.

It really is part of Bill 45, because if they hadn’t made those great sacrifices many, many years ago, none of the 107 members in this chamber would ever have had the privilege that we have today to exercise our democracy in this chamber. That’s always very important for us to remember as we get closer to November 11.

There are many good provisions. We mentioned Peter Emon, who I know very well. This really is the opportunity to overhaul the election apparatus in the province of Ontario.

All of us have a real interest—it doesn’t matter what side we’re on—to get greater turnout. Mr. Speaker, you well know that it’s abysmal in municipal elections across the province of Ontario. In many communities, if you get 25% turnout, that is a high-water mark. I think that’s distressing for us all. Anything we can do, as part of Bill 45, to increase participation in our democracy, to make it more healthy, is exactly the right thing to do.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Randy Hillier: I want to just mention as well that I’m looking forward to the House, later today, recognizing the admirable service. I believe we have a bill or a motion in the House about recognizing Remembrance Week, which will happen today in honour of our serving members, and veterans as well.

Speaking on Bill 45, I want to comment on the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke’s debate. There’s nothing in this bill that will improve voter turnout. We’ve heard from the Liberal members that this is all about improving voter turnout, but there’s actually nothing in the bill that will achieve that. Moving the election date is not going to do it. Having tabulated machines is not going to improve voter turnout.

There are many good housekeeping measures in this bill—technical amendments and improvements. But with every Liberal bill, whether it be housekeeping or otherwise, they always sweep in a few more nasty little bits in the bill as well. With this one, what it does is remove the initial blackout period on by-elections, which is there to prevent the government from having an undue advantage of advertising for unscheduled elections or for by-elections. Maybe the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs will speak to why they’re being stealthy in giving the government an advantage on that.

There are other elements as well which are nasty little bits. The administrative monetary penalty which will be imposed on building owners if their building is closed and the canvasser or the candidate is prevented from access to a multi-unit residential building: An automatic administrative penalty gets imposed. These are some nasty bits which have nothing to do with voter turnout but does give the government some added revenues and some added stealthy things—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you.

Questions and comments?

Mr. Michael Mantha: As the member from Windsor–Tecumseh indicated, I too will be spending a lot of time with my comrades over the next week at many Remembrance Day events, and I want to thank them for joining us here today. Every time I see you, you’re an inspiration. I enjoy walking up to you. I particularly enjoy the auxiliary ladies. You get a bunch of them together in a room and they really make this young MPP turn red at times. The stories that they have—wow, I tell you, they shy you quite well.

The member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke brought up a few really good points. How do we engage? Or, particularly, how do we engage youth voter turnouts with some of the changes that the government is proposing in this bill? I agree with a lot of the comments that he made. How do you engage these young minds, future leaders that we have—not only the young minds but just the general public—when the headlines in the papers are all about corruption, are all about scandals, are all about the problems that we’re having and misspent money?

How can you bring those individuals in to getting involved when they can’t relate to those stories? They see it and they just shake their heads and say, “How could they be so irresponsible in doing so?”

I hope I will get an opportunity to speak to this bill, but knowing the track record of this government, they’re going to close debate on this. I want to talk about the responsibilities of the Chief Electoral Officer and the Far North Electoral Boundaries Commission, and how I want to raise a particular issue. I know the member from Nickel Belt talked about the community of Wahnapitae in her area, but I also want to raise a point about a community north of my riding which is just outside of the boundaries of the Algoma district that I represent, the community of Manitouwadge. I think there’s a message that will be coming from the mayor that this government needs to hear.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke has two minutes.

Mr. John Yakabuski: I appreciate all the members’ comments.

I want to go back a little bit to my father with the veterans here. My father landed at Normandy, fought in the Battle of Caen, and was very proud of his military service but didn’t talk a lot about it.

I was listening to a speech that he made in 1977 at a church on Canada Day. He talked about how—he described it as a slip trench; he described it as a hole that was dug when you were under fire from the enemy. He said that in a slip trench is where you realized that there is only one God and he’s there for us all.

In that speech he also talked about—and I can tell you this because I was the recipient of many of those talks—how he would tell his children, and I’m one of 14 children, as you people in this Legislature know—it would always revolve around when food was being served at the table. He would tell his children how blessed we were and how thankful we should be to live in this country as opposed to so many other places in the world.

When we talk about our democracy and we talk about our system—and there are always things that we can do to improve our system, but we are fortunate to live in a great democracy like Canada and in this province of Ontario. We have to ensure that as we protect this democracy, we always give the people who make it up, who make the democracy, the best opportunity and the best reasons to vote for us.

As people who serve in this chamber, we’ve got to give them reasons to believe that the process and the system work, because we do so much sometimes to make people cynical about politics, to make them believe that we’re just here for our own good. We need to change people’s minds about how they feel about politics and politicians. Young people like Emilio Sebastian will help that, but I think the job starts with us.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Before I move on to further debate, I would like to take this moment to welcome the veterans, the members who are serving now and also members of the Legion. What you’ve done and the sacrifices you’ve made over the years have made this country stronger and free. We appreciate what you’ve done.

This particular time of the year is very important to me personally, too. Five members of my family fought in World War II—three in the navy, two in the air force—and we were one of the fortunate families: They all came back. They saw action. My one uncle was shot down twice. My other uncle was sunk in the north Atlantic on convoy duty and made it. We were very lucky, but many people weren’t. The sacrifices you make, day in and day out, to keep us free are much appreciated. Thank you so much.

Applause.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Ms. Teresa J. Armstrong: It’s a good segue that the member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke just gave me. He talked about how we need to give reasons for motivating and inspiring people to vote for their representatives, because we aren’t here for ourselves. We are here to make sure that the legislation that comes forward, which we create or we debate, is working for the people. He mentioned how cynical people sometimes are about the process.

But when you are elected and have that honour and that privilege to be your constituents’ voices, you certainly realize that you are here for the collective voices in your riding that have put their trust in you, to ensure that legislation is the best that it can be. As the party on this side, that’s one of the things that we like to do, as we like fulsome debate.

Part of democracy, Speaker, is having fulsome debate and allowing each member of this House to speak on bills. The government’s track record isn’t always that good. They do like to close debate down very quickly on very important legislation, which doesn’t always give us that opportunity.

But today I rise to lend my voice to Bill 45,

An Act to amend certain acts with respect to provincial elections. I like the fact that the government is attempting, with this bill, to legislate a number of recommendations sought by the Chief Electoral Officer over the past several years and noted in his annual reports. I am also very much in favour of increasing the representation of First Nations communities in both voting and participation in this Legislature. In fact, I think we can all agree that this particular initiative is long overdue.

We hail democracy as the best form of government because it is the only one that recognizes and protects the fundamental values of each individual. Participating in an election is the most essential entryway into any democratic system and it is imperative that we actively seek out groups that are underrepresented and those who experience difficulty in exercising their right to vote. That, I think, is something we need to do better, because we do have such a diverse country; there are many groups in our communities that are underrepresented. But we must do more than just seek them out.

We need to find ways to implement educational and informational programs to make the process better known to the public. We also need to find ways to improve on current electoral resources, like outdated and duplicative voters lists and polling capabilities.

But for now, Speaker, I want to turn my comments towards the outreach to Ontario’s aboriginal people. Too many people falsely believe that aboriginal people received the right to vote back in 1960. The fact is that most “status Indians” received the unconditional right to vote in 1960, the Inuit received the right to vote in 1950, and still other aboriginal people, such as Métis and non-status Indians, received the vote alongside other Canadians. However, this history of aboriginal voting rights in this country is not one for celebration.

The terms of the Indian Act required status Indians to become “enfranchised” in order to obtain the right to vote, meaning they had to give up their status as Indians. They actually had to deny their cultural identity in order to be entitled to participate in our democracy.

Our federal government extended that franchise on several occasions. In 1885, the federal franchise was provided to status Indians in eastern Canada who met the existing requirements for exercising the franchise. This was revoked in 1898. The franchise was extended to status Indian servicemen in both world wars. During the First World War, however, veterans lost their right to vote when they returned to the reserve. This was remedied in 1920 when the franchise was extended to all veterans.

In 1944, the franchise was provided to both veterans and their spouses, regardless of whether they were living on or off the reserves. In 1950, the federal franchise was again extended to any status Indians in exchange for their tax-exemption status.

In 1960, the franchise was extended to all status Indians without any qualification or any need to enfranchise.

It should be noted that other groups were excluded from the franchise, including women and ethnic and religious minorities such as Chinese and the Mennonites. However, the fundamental difference between the franchised groups and the aboriginal groups was that aboriginal people did not seek it out.

When they were finally granted the right to vote, aboriginal people did not celebrate. That, to me, is a vital piece of information that needs to be understood by anyone attempting to forge new relationships with our aboriginal communities. We share a highly traumatic, problematic and discriminatory history with our aboriginal community, most of which has yet to find proper redress, and that history will and must inform our approach, our expectations for success and our outreach efforts. It will be front and centre for aboriginal groups, and we must respect the past we damaged to forge a future ahead together.

That is my primary concern with this bill: While noble in effort, the approach it takes is highly problematic. You—this government—have only addressed two ridings for consideration, yet you have ignored the fundamental facts in which Ontario’s aboriginal communities are located, gather and engage.

Firstly, there are significant aboriginal communities throughout all ridings of northern Ontario, including Thunder Bay–Superior North, Thunder Bay–Atikokan, Nickel Belt, as well as Algoma–Manitoulin. Therefore, basically I’m highlighting the fact that when these things, these committees, are constructed, we have to remember the past in order to develop a way that balances the future.

We also talk about engagement of youth. Many of us here today are familiar with Samara Canada. They are an organization dedicated to reconnecting citizens to politics. They are a trusted, non-partisan champion of increased civic engagement and a more positive public life. Samara commissioned a report called Message Not Delivered, analyzing the myth of youth apathy in political participation. One of the key findings of the report was that almost half of all youth had not been contacted by a political party directly, compared to three quarters of older voters.

Samara also worked with Elections Canada on their National Youth Survey Report, which showed that among young people, the likelihood of voting was 15 percentage points higher for those who were directly contacted by a political party or candidate than for those who were not contacted directly.

A central challenge with youth engagement is that youth are harder to contact than their older counterparts. This makes voter identification, an essential task for effective outreach, even more difficult. However, it is unlikely that the two reasons why identification is made more difficult will change: youth mobility patterns and the lack of land-line phones. This means that we all need to find new and engaging ways to reach our youth, otherwise there will be consequences. Over the last 30 years, Canadians have watched with concern as voter rates among younger people have declined. We don’t want that to continue as a trend.

I want to finish off by saying that the veterans who are here, the soldiers who have fought for us as individuals, us as a country and us as a province in order to have the rights and freedoms that we have today—for me, that’s enough inspiration to make sure that I exercise my vote every day. They fought for those rights for us, and I think connecting young people to the veterans who are here, the service persons who have fought for these rights that we are able to enjoy, makes us proud.

Coming up on Remembrance Day on November 11, I will be visiting all my legions as fast as I can get there, participating in our Remembrance Day celebrations, and I think that’s a really crucial time. We can take that opportunity for outreach to youth and really stress what we fought for, what the people here have fought for, and that’s allowing us to have freedom of speech, allowing us to vote.

I hope that that message can get to young people during the week of Remembrance Week, because I think, Speaker, that once you know something can be taken away from you, you will stand up and exercise that right to vote.

I want to thank the people here today for standing up and fighting for our right to be able to vote in this great country.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Ted McMeekin: I always enjoy the sharings of the honourable member from London–Fanshawe. She invariably takes a slightly different approach than reading the bullet points that our partisan people supply us with every time we come into the House. I’m going to depart from mine, as well, just to say I appreciate your focus on youth and the aboriginal brothers and sisters and the importance of finding ways to ensure that they’re engaged.

The only way people are going to change things is by getting engaged. You can’t sit on the sidelines and then just be critical; you need to be engaged. There are two kinds of people in the world: those who make a noise and those who make a difference. If you want to make a difference, you’ve got to be engaged.

I too am pleased to see the veterans out this morning. Thank you for coming. It’s a delight. I spent some time with the peacekeepers in Cyprus many, many years ago when I was a much younger man. It’s good to see you here.

I want to talk a bit to the issue of history guiding us so that we can be more fully engaged. Youth engagement is important. I come from a riding that, in the last three elections, had the highest voter turnout in Ontario. There’s a reason for that: We are proactive about engaging people, especially our young people. A number of advisory committees—I think there are six or seven—meet three or four times a year on different topics. You don’t have to be a Liberal to participate. In fact, we welcome everybody. It works. People come out. And I spend a couple of days on campus at Mac every month.

By trying to be engaged with young people, they, in turn, reciprocate by being more willing to get engaged in the political system, and the member has highlighted that. Thank you for that.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Rick Nicholls: Again, it’s an honour to be able to rise in this Legislature today and talk to Bill 45, the Election Statute Law Amendment Act.

A couple of things: First of all, we’re talking about moving towards electronic voting. That certainly will speed up the process, and it will eliminate, perhaps, human error. Although we do know that to make a mistake requires a person, but to make a real big mistake requires a computer.

I’m concerned about privacy. Donald Trump—it’s interesting how he comments, and he says, “You know, they’re going to fix this election,” and whatnot. My concern is, of course, to ensure—and it’s the Chief Electoral Officer’s duty and responsibility to ensure that the machines are actually accurate and are going to be doing what they’re intended to do.

I do like the provision in here with regard to getting young people on the election—giving them a chance to register. My only concern with that is, of course, at 16 and 17, we know where they are, but when they get off to university, we don’t know where they are. Will they be followed? Will we know where they are so they can register and vote and so on, and have those particular lists accurate? That is another concern that we do have as well. Elections Ontario is to provide us with these election lists and, of course, how accurate are they?

Perhaps, as has been pointed out by the member from Windsor–Tecumseh, we need to put people to work to ensure that these lists are accurate, because that poses a big problem for all members in this Legislature as well. So I do like that.

I think that the permanent register of electors needs to be—oh, my time is almost up. With that, Speaker, thank you very much. Perhaps I’ll get a chance a little bit later on.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Michael Mantha: With the present government that we have and them shutting down debate on many bills and not providing us with the opportunity to speak wholesomely about the issues that are going on, I think it’s important that I get a few comments in on this particular bill, particularly for the community of Manitouwadge and the mayor in Manitouwadge, who has approached the government-side member from Thunder Bay–Superior North on various occasions.

During the last federal redistribution of boundaries, there was a discussion that a community in the far north of my area looked at being moved over into Thunder Bay–Superior North. The rationale behind it—and don’t get me wrong, Mr. Speaker; I never want to lose my constituents out of Manitouwadge. I’ve built a great relationship with them. There are wonderful people there, and I always enjoy going back to that community. It’s not because they’re underserviced, because I’m there often and I always enjoy it. They always take good care of me, and they receive me quite warmly in the community.

However, the point that the mayor and his councillors are trying to make is that their community services, as far as the local health integration network, come from the northwest. All of my other communities are serviced by the North East LHIN. That’s one of their issues. Because everybody feeds in to the Thunder Bay area, it just makes logical sense for them to be considered in that area.

The second point is their school boards. Their school boards are also towards the west. Some of them do fall in my area, but the issues are split amongst the others. It’s an issue that the mayor has been raising for quite some time. Unfortunately, through the Far North Electoral Boundaries Commission, we won’t have time to have this discussion at all because they’re not going to permit any of these discussions. I had to get that in because I don’t know, with this government, when they’re going to shut down debate on this one too.

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: Good morning, Speaker. I am pleased to provide some brief comments on the bill.

Yesterday when I spoke to the bill, the focus of my discussion was on the piece here that would allow 16- and 17-year-olds to pre-register. Coincidentally, I have someone with me here in the House who is approaching that age range. It is Stephanie Hintermeister, who’s in the gallery here. She is a student in the Scarborough side of my riding. She goes to Joseph Howe. Today is actually “take your grade 9 student to work” day, Speaker. While Stephanie is not my child, she is the wonderful child—young adult—of a very good friend of mine, Cathy Vanderkolff, who will be here in the Legislature later today.

Steph and I had a conversation on the way in this morning about what you can do in Ontario when you’re 16. We talked about the positive things and maybe the not-so-positive things, like being able to smoke cigarettes and buy cigarettes. But you can drive a car, you are covered under age-of-protection laws for child welfare, and you can get your driver’s licence. These are some of the great things about being 16.

We know that the youth turnout for voting here in Ontario is far lower than the average turnout. We talked yesterday in debate about different ways that youth can currently get involved. But going forward, this bill will provide the enhanced ability to engage youth early, get them on those voters lists, and allow them to have a stronger voice in the things that affect their daily living, whether it’s education or social services and so on.

Welcome, Stephanie, to the Legislature. It’s great that you’re here to observe this particular debate and so many of us talking about the role of youth in Ontario.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from London–Fanshawe: two minutes.

The minister brought up a very good point: what privileges and what rights a 16-year-old person has in our province. One thing she didn’t list was the right to vote. I thought maybe that’s kind of what she was implying.

I also think education is really important, because when you’re earning that privilege to vote, as we are talking about—and it is certainly a privilege to have—we need to understand the issues and how democracy works. Teaching our young people early in education and through, as I mentioned just a little while ago, Remembrance Week and what it means to have this right to vote, how significant it is and how we must learn about our democracy and participate in the political process in order to have our voices heard—engaging youth, I think, is a wonderful thing for us to talk about and promote. They will be our future.

I do want to just mention quickly, on a personal note: My granddaughter started junior kindergarten. She’s four years old. Their school is going to have a Remembrance Day ceremony. The junior kindergarten and the senior kindergarten class will come together and have a Remembrance Day ceremony. She was asked to speak and say a few words at that ceremony—at four years old. Of course they give her the words, but starting that young and having those celebrations of Remembrance Day, talking about democracy and what it’s like to vote—I think you can’t start young enough.

I just wanted to say that I think it’s a great thing we’re talking about, engaging youth, but we actually need to take some action as well.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate? The Minister of Innovation, Science—

Hon. Reza Moridi: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, Minister of Research, Innovation and Science, and the MPP for Richmond Hill.

It’s a great pleasure to stand in the House and to speak to Bill 45, the Election Statute Law Amendment Act. Mr. Speaker, this bill allows the use of certain voting technology in provincial elections, which will enable the Chief Electoral Officer to implement his proposed technology-enabled staffing model.

As we know, technology has improved enormously in the past decades, and when it comes to voting and elections, we haven’t been using adequately the potential which technology provides for us. Based on this bill, the Chief Electoral Officer will be enabled to implement his proposed technology-enabled staffing model in future elections.

Under the current system, finding a voter on the list and giving them their ballot is done manually. This requires enormous effort on the part of polling clerks and also the deputy returning officers, and indeed the returning officers. At the end of the day, Mr. Speaker, all votes are counted manually. As a result, Elections Ontario requires a lot of staff in order to run elections.

In the past general election, in 2014, Elections Ontario recruited 76,000 staff in order to run the election—and these are temporary staff, so you can imagine how it would be difficult on the part of Elections Ontario and the returning officers in 107 ridings. In the future there will be more than 120 ridings—almost, on average, 700 staff per riding. It’s not going to be an easy job—and it wasn’t. If you use technology in these cases, of course that is going to reduce the number of staff which are required to run our elections properly.

Based on this technology, Mr. Speaker, the Chief Electoral Officer estimates that the number of staff required to run general elections will be reduced by over 40%. That is a very huge reduction in the number of staff required to run the election.

The new staffing model and the process that was piloted in Whitby–Oshawa—this is the last by-election, in Whitby–Oshawa—provided a more streamlined and positive experience for voters. The system proved that it works, and the voters were happy. About 96% of voters who were polled after voting with the technology-enabled model thought the process was easy with the new technology, and 91% were supportive of the technology being used in future elections.

The e-poll book process only works if connected to the Internet, but if the Internet connection is lost, people will still be able—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Sorry to interrupt. It’s tradition to introduce a former member. Gerry Phillips, the former member for Scarborough–Agincourt in the 34th, 35th, 36th, 37th, 38th and 39th Parliaments, is sitting in the east gallery. Welcome.

Continue.

Hon. Reza Moridi: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I also welcome the former MPP and the former cabinet minister—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Excuse me. Point of order: the member from Algoma–Manitoulin.

Mr. Michael Mantha: Do we have a quorum?

Mr. Percy Hatfield: Even with Mr. Phillips, we don’t.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): I believe we don’t. A quorum is necessary.

The Clerk-at-the-Table (Ms. Tonia Grannum): A quorum is not present.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you. Ring the bells.

The Acting Speaker ordered the bells rung.

The Clerk-at-the-Table (Ms. Tonia Grannum): A quorum is now present.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): A quorum is now present.

Continue.

Hon. Reza Moridi: As I was saying, I was welcoming former minister and former MPP Gerry Phillips to the Legislature.

Voting will still be done with paper ballots, so votes can still be counted by hand in the event of any issues which may occur. Vote tabulators will be connected to a secure network for a short period of time after the polls close for the purpose of transmitting data and results to the Chief Electoral Officer. Elections Ontario will work with Internet service providers to facilitate the use of secure connections for vote tabulators.

Elections Ontario tested the use of automated vote tabulators in the 2016 Whitby–Oshawa by-election and, as I indicated earlier, this was very successful and the voters were quite happy with the system. The Chief Electoral Officer documented the success and reflected on the learning of that experience in his extensive post-event report, saying that the machines worked flawlessly and that votes were counted faster than they had been in the previous election. That is quite understandable. Neither situation would compromise election results.

Elections in other provinces: Elections Canada, Elections Alberta, Elections Quebec, Elections New Brunswick and Elections Nova Scotia all permit the use of technology to support the voting process in some way. We are far behind in this in comparison to other provinces. If this bill passes, Elections Ontario will have the choice and the chance to employ modern technology in the elections process in this province.

This bill protects voter privacy by requiring that political parties submit a privacy policy to the Chief Electoral Officer before they are given access to voter lists. The Chief Electoral Officer would also have the authority to redact voter information from these lists in situations where a privacy concern has been raised.

In addition, when providing voter information to parties and their candidates, the Chief Electoral Officer and the returning officer would only be allowed to share the voter’s name, unique identifier and address. The legislative changes require the CEO not to share personal information about electors in the case that a privacy policy is deemed inadequate. This is an appropriate safeguard to protect people’s personal information.

An enormous amount of voter engagement takes place through the political process, as we know, and potential voters should be able to have the opportunity to speak with their candidates during election time when canvassing happens at their doors. If a canvasser is prevented from entering a multiple-residence building during the designated times, they can give notice that access must be granted within 24 hours, or immediately on polling day. This notice can either be handed to the person who has denied the access or posted wherever access was prevented.

If access is still not granted, the canvasser can formally notify the returning officer of this situation. The returning officer can then impose an administrative penalty on the owner of the multiple-resident building where access was denied. In the case of a condominium, the penalty would apply to the condominium corporation.

We want to make sure that people in Ontario, those who are living in condominiums and apartment buildings, participate in the democratic process in our province of Ontario, and hearing from candidates and their campaigners is a very important part of this democratic process. We all know that when we knock on doors and talk to people—potential voters—so many issues come to the surface. As well, the candidates propose and present their own plans and proposals to the voters and the voters ask questions. It’s a major component of our democratic process and we have to make sure that our voters can communicate with their candidates in a free and democratic process.

Mr. Speaker, this bill is going to streamline our election process in the future and will provide Elections Ontario with the modern technology which they need to conduct our elections in the future.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Thank you to the Minister of Research, Innovation and Science.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): This House now stands recessed until 10:30 this morning.

The House recessed from 1017 to 1030.

Introduction of Visitors

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: It’s a big day in Nepean–Carleton, because today Dylan Manary is our page captain. I’m joined by his father, Troy Manary of Greeley, in my constituency of Nepean–Carleton. Also, on behalf of my colleague Lisa Thompson, I want to introduce two wonderful people from the Huron–Bruce constituency, his grandparents Wilma and Don Manary. Welcome to Queen’s Park today.

Mr. Percy Hatfield: I’d like to welcome back to Queen’s Park Nancy and Allan Lawton, the grandparents of my page from Windsor–Tecumseh, Elisabeth Lawton. Welcome back,

Hon. Helena Jaczek: Please help me welcome a number of individuals from OASIS, whose member agencies help so many vulnerable people in Ontario. We have Ann Kenney, president; Michelle Marshall, VP; David Barber, past president; and Darren Connolly, also a vice-president at OASIS. They’ll be hosting a reception later on today in room 230.

Mr. Patrick Brown: I’m honoured to welcome today in the House Brian Weaver, president, Ontario Command of the Royal Canadian Legion, and his delegation; Commander Robert Johnston and the sailors of the Royal Canadian Navy; Major Frank Lamie and the Queen’s Own Rifles—I actually went to high school with Frank; and retired Brigadier-General Julian Chapman of Wounded Warriors.

We also have here today representatives from the following organizations: the Canadian Forces staff college, HMCS York, Commissionaires Great Lakes, the Royal Canadian Military Institute, Invictus Games, the Naval Club of Toronto and the Toronto Branch of the Naval Association of Canada.

Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: I want to add my voice to the leader of the official opposition, on behalf of Andrea Horwath and all in the NDP. I particularly want to welcome Mary Keates, president of Legion 344; and James Cohen, a veteran of the Korean War, again of Legion 344.

But to all the legionnaires who are here, we give you a great welcome. Thank you for your service.

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: It gives me great pleasure to welcome Stephanie Hintermeister, a grade 9 student from the Scarborough part of my riding and daughter of a close friend of mine, Cathy Vanderkolff, who will be joining us later. Stephanie is here as part of take your grade 9 to work day. She is shadowing me throughout the day to learn all about this place and what MPPs and ministers do. Welcome, Stephanie.

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: I’m pleased to welcome Owen Stinson and Thomas Mount today for Take Our Kids to Work Day. Owen is the nephew of my executive assistant, Tara Barry, and we’re happy to have these two joining us today to learn about the Ontario Legislature. Welcome, Owen and Thomas.

Miss Monique Taylor: It gives me great pleasure to welcome a grade 9 student who is here with me today. Clara McIntosh is the daughter of Bruce and Laura McIntosh. Welcome, Clara McIntosh, to the Legislature.

Ms. Soo Wong: It gives me great pleasure to welcome—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Ahem.

Ms. Soo Wong: I do need to recognize him; he’s actually my mentor: the great former member and minister from Scarborough–Agincourt, the Honourable Gerry Phillips, and his granddaughter Chloe.

I also want to welcome Commissionaires representatives and the chair of the board of governors, who are here at Queen’s Park.

My last guest who is visiting here today is a former page and also a grade 9 student in the IB program at Monarch Park Collegiate, Angelica Voutsinas, who is here for Take Our Kids to Work Day. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Steve Clark: Thank you, Speaker. I want to introduce, through you, to the members of the Legislative Assembly a grade 9 student at Humberside Collegiate who will be assisting in my office today. Please welcome Kaja Tomé. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): My intention is to get through all of the introductions, so if you could be brief, just make sure that you mention who they are, and we’ll get through every one.

M me France Gélinas: I would like to welcome Stewart Kiff and his daughter Elizabeth for the take your children to work day. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

As well, I have a big delegation of long-term-care workers represented by CUPE. Their leader Fred Hahn and Candace Rennick are here, as well as long-term-care workers Cathy Webdale, Joanne Waddell, Luanne Roy, Debbie Pietracupa, Kevin Bates, Jessica Williams, Betty Lou Morgan, Kirsten Eade, Amanda Farrow, Nicole Panama, Karen Popadynetz, Mary Willis, Brenda Laronde, Pauline Lynde and Karen Jacobs. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mrs. Amrit Mangat: I would like to welcome to Queen’s Park the grade 9 students from St. Marcellinus Secondary School from my great riding of Mississauga–Brampton South. They are up there in the west gallery. Among them is Maya Katchutas, whose father works at Queen’s Park. They are my constituents. Welcome to Queen’s Park and enjoy the trip.

Mr. Monte McNaughton: It gives me great honour to introduce, on behalf our leader, Patrick Brown, and the PC caucus, two former members of Parliament: Ted Opitz and Corneliu Chisu. Mr. Opitz represented Etobicoke Centre. Mr. Chisu represented Pickering–Scarborough East. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mrs. Lisa Gretzky: It is my pleasure to welcome Patrick Hannon. He is a CUPE member from Windsor.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: On behalf of the Premier and the government of Ontario, I also want to welcome the veterans who are with us here today at Queen’s Park: members of the Legion and our current serving members of the Canadian Forces. We thank them for their sacrifice in the past and present as we mark Remembrance Week. Lest we forget.

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: On behalf of the PC Party of Ontario, I too would like to welcome the members of CUPE.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): There’s a lot of love today.

The member from Huron–Bruce, you can get yours in.

Ms. Lisa M. Thompson: Thank you very much, Speaker. On behalf of the PC Party of Ontario, we too would like to welcome the members of CUPE and we look forward to meeting with them.

Hon. Mitzie Hunter: I would like to acknowledge that today is Take Our Kids to Work Day and welcome all the students who are visiting here today.

Mr. Bill Walker: I would like to welcome Stewart Kiff and his daughter Elizabeth in the members’ gallery.

Hon. Michael Coteau: I’d like to welcome my friend, Gwyn Chapman, who works for the city of Toronto but also the Canadian Black Caucus. Welcome to the Legislature.

Mr. Robert Bailey: I’d like to welcome to the Legislature today, through TV, Mr. Mitchell Burnard, for take our children to work. He’s in my constituency office back in Sarnia, a grade 9 student at LCCVI in Petrolia.

Hon. Reza Moridi: Please join me in welcoming my new colleague, Mr. Dan Ouimet, chief of staff at the Ministry of Research and Innovation, joining us today on his first day at Queen’s Park.

Ms. Laurie Scott: I’d like to welcome Juanita Kemp, the assistant executive director for Legion, Ontario Command, from the great riding of Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: I’d like to welcome to Queen’s Park the leaders of CUPE who are here today: Fred Hahn, Candace Rennick, Chris Watson and all those members of CUPE who are here to participate in lobby day.

Mr. Granville Anderson: I would like to welcome two grade 9 students here today: Isabella Smith and Rahim Khan. I would also like to welcome Verona Pernell to Queen’s Park.

Hon. Charles Sousa: I have great pleasure introducing our senior intern in the Ministry of Finance, Mr. Gerry Phillips, who was a long-time member of this House, and his granddaughter Chloe, who is just wonderful; and, as mentioned and yet to come, the son of Gadi Mayman, the present CEO of the Ontario Financing Authority—his son Aaron will be here. And Jan De Silva, the president of the Toronto Board of Trade: Her son Jake Therrien will be here as well.

Mrs. Cristina Martins: As was already mentioned here today, it’s take your grade 9 to work day. It gives me great pleasure to welcome my nephew Phillipe here today, along with his friends Michael and Jacob. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: On behalf of the member from Vaughan, I want to welcome the family of page captain Nicolas Polga: parents, Miriam and Franco Polga, and grandparents Miriam and José Polga. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further introductions?

I have an introduction which is very traditional that the Speaker gives, so I’ll have a chit-chat with the Deputy Speaker and the Minister of Finance in a moment. I would like to introduce the former member from Scarborough–Agincourt in the 34th, 35th, 36th, 37th, 38th and 39th Parliaments: in the east gallery, former member Mr. Gerry Phillips.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I recognize the member from Simcoe–Grey on a point of order.

Mr. Jim Wilson: I’m seeking unanimous consent that the orders for second and third reading of Bill 55,

An Act to proclaim Remembrance Week and to provide for the observance of Remembrance Day, be immediately called and that the Speaker put the question on second and third reading without debate or amendment.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Mr. Wilson is seeking unanimous consent to put forward the orders for second and third reading of Bill 55,

An Act to proclaim Remembrance Week and to provide for the observance of Remembrance Day, that they be immediately called and that the Speaker put the question on second and third reading without debate or amendment.

Do we agree? Agreed.

Remembrance Week Act, 2016 / Loi de 2016 sur la semaine du Souvenir

Mr. Wilson moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 55,

An Act to proclaim Remembrance Week and to provide for the observance of Remembrance Day / Projet de loi 55, Loi proclamant la semaine du Souvenir et prévoyant l’observation du jour du Souvenir.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Do we agree? Carried.

Second reading agreed to.

Remembrance Week Act, 2016 / Loi de 2016 sur la semaine du Souvenir

Mr. Wilson moved third reading of the following bill:

Bill 55,

An Act to proclaim Remembrance Week and to provide for the observance of Remembrance Day / Projet de loi 55, Loi proclamant la semaine du Souvenir et prévoyant l’observation du jour du Souvenir.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Do we agree? Carried.

Be it resolved that the bill do now pass and be entitled as in the motion.

Third reading agreed to.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Introductions being completed, it is therefore now time for question period.

Oral Questions

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Patrick Brown: To the Premier: I couldn’t get an answer yesterday, so I’m going to try again today.

The tapes are clear, and now the Premier’s deputy chief of staff has been charged with bribery by the OPP. The people of Ontario want to hear from the Premier: Who ordered the Premier’s deputy chief of staff and top fundraiser to allegedly bribe Andrew Olivier with a job in exchange for a withdrawal from seeking the candidacy in the Sudbury by-election?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I’ve been very open with the Legislature, with the media and with the public about the allegations surrounding the Sudbury by-election. Now that charges have been laid, the matter is before the court. It’s before the court under a presumption of innocence. We’ll continue to co-operate with the authorities, with any independent investigation, and Pat Sorbara has stepped down from her role.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary? The member from Leeds–Grenville.

Mr. Steve Clark: Back to the Premier: The tapes are clear, and now the Premier’s deputy chief of staff has been charged with bribery by the OPP. The people of Ontario want to hear from the Premier: Who ordered the Premier’s deputy chief of staff and top fundraiser to allegedly bribe Andrew Olivier with a job in exchange for his withdrawal from seeking the candidacy in the Sudbury by-election?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. I’m not amused with some of the things I’ve been hearing, and I’ll stop it. So provide yourself with your own discipline and stop now, before I do.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I think, as the Premier said earlier, she has been very open to the public, to this Legislature and to the media as it relates to the allegations surrounding the Sudbury by-election. As we know, this matter is now before the courts, and it would be highly inappropriate for any member of this House to engage in any speculation or questioning that would undermine the court proceedings. We should respect that, and let the matter be dealt with within the courts.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary? The member from Wellington–Halton Hills.

Mr. Ted Arnott: Mr. Speaker, back to the Premier: The tapes are clear and now the Premier’s deputy chief of staff has been charged with bribery by the OPP. The people of Ontario want to hear from the Premier: Who ordered the Premier’s deputy chief of staff and top fundraiser to allegedly bribe Andrew Olivier with a job in exchange for his withdrawal from seeking the candidacy in the Sudbury by-election?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: It’s unfortunate that the opposition continues to ask questions that should really be dealt with within the realm of the court of law. Speaker, as you are well aware, we have a rule around sub judice within our standing orders that gives us sufficient guidance in terms of matters that may be before courts, that they may not be discussed or dealt with in this House.

I also want to confirm that this matter will be handled by the Public Prosecution Service of Canada, which is independent and separate from the Ministry of the Attorney General.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: My question is to the Premier. The tapes are clear and now the Premier’s deputy chief of staff has been charged with bribery by the OPP. The people of Ontario want to hear from the Premier. For the fourth time, who ordered the Premier’s deputy chief of staff and the top fundraiser to allegedly bribe Andrew Olivier with a job in exchange for his withdrawal from seeking the candidacy in the Sudbury by-election?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Again I say to the honourable member that the Premier has been very open to the public and to the Legislature and to the media on the facts and circumstances relating to the allegations in the Sudbury by-election. Now that there are charges laid, this matter falls squarely within the scope of the courts. It is highly inappropriate for these questions to be posed or anybody trying to answer any of these questions.

These are serious matters that will be dealt with within the court of law. On this side of the House, from the government perspective, we respect that independent impartial process and we urge that all members of the House do the same.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary question. The member from Nepean–Carleton.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Speaker, my question goes back to the Premier. The tapes are crystal clear and now the Premier’s deputy chief of staff has been charged with bribery by the OPP. The people of Ottawa want to hear from the Premier. For the fifth time, who ordered the Premier’s deputy chief of staff and top fundraiser to allegedly bribe Andrew Olivier with a job in exchange for his withdrawal from seeking the candidacy in the Sudbury by-election?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Mr. Speaker, the opposition can continue to ask the same question again and again, as much as they wish to do. We on this side of the House are not going to interfere in a court process. These are serious allegations, charges that have been laid against individuals. We must respect the process, and the neutrality and the independence of the process, and let a court determine, based on evidence, the outcome—not in this House.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary. The member from Simcoe–Grey.

Mr. Jim Wilson: Mr. Speaker, to the Premier: The tapes are clear and now the Premier’s deputy chief of staff has been charged with bribery by the OPP. The people of Ontario want to hear from the Premier. For the sixth time, who ordered the Premier’s deputy chief of staff and top fundraiser—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Member from Barrie, come to order.

Please continue.

Mr. Jim Wilson: —to allegedly bribe Andrew Olivier with a job in exchange for his withdrawal from seeking the candidacy in the Sudbury by-election?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: For the sixth time, this matter is before the court of law. The members from all sides of the House, I believe, respect our courts and the impartiality and the neutrality of our court system. This matter, resulting in serious charges and allegations, is not to be prosecuted in the Legislature. It has to be dealt with within the court of law.

Speaker, it is our shared responsibility, as outlined in our own standing orders, that we do not interfere in that process. So I urge the members from all sides, again, not to engage in any speculation or cross-examination and to let the courts do their job.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: My question is for the Premier. The Premier’s top aide, Pat Sorbara, and her Sudbury power broker, Gerry Lougheed, are now facing charges, as we all know, under the Election Act. These charges stem from the alleged bribery of the Liberal candidate, Andrew Olivier, in last year’s by-election.

Yesterday, the Premier failed once again to answer the main question that hangs over this entire scenario: Did the Premier direct either Ms. Sorbara or Mr. Lougheed to offer an alleged bribe to Mr. Olivier?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. I’m going to remind the member, as I did yesterday, that there are ways in which questions can be put without impugning somebody else in terms of a crime. I am going to remind him that if it gets that close again, I’ll ask him to withdraw.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Again, I have been very open in this Legislature, I have been open in the media and I have been open with the public. If the member opposite refers to past transcripts, to the past Hansard, he will see that there were many, many questions answered on this issue, and I talked about the process around the Sudbury by-election.

Right now, Mr. Speaker, we are dealing with a situation where the matter is before the courts. Under the presumption of innocence, we need to let that process roll out. We’ll continue to co-operate with an independent investigation. Pat Sorbara has stepped down from her roles.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: When Pat Sorbara, the Premier’s deputy chief of staff, called Mr. Olivier, she said she made it clear what the Premier had in mind. She said the Premier wanted to ensure that Mr. Olivier had “a role,” and she said, “If there were other things that you’re particularly interested in that is within her realm to make you part of, then she is more than prepared to do that.”

Did the Premier ask Pat Sorbara to make that phone call—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member will withdraw. If he continues in the same vein, I’ll pass the question. Withdraw.

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. You may reword the question.

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Did the Premier ask Ms. Sorbara to make that phone call and did she direct Ms. Sorbara to offer the alleged bribe?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): You just asked the same question I asked you to withdraw. It’s not going to happen. I’m passing the question. The Premier has an option to respond. Thank you.

Hon. David Zimmer: You’re a lawyer. You know better.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Indigenous Relations, second time.

New question.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: When Gerry Lougheed, the Premier’s Sudbury power broker, met with Mr. Olivier, he made it clear who he was working for. He said he had come “on behalf of the Premier.” He said there could be a “reward” for quitting the race, and he said, “The Premier wants to talk to you. We would like to present to you options in terms of appointments, jobs, whatever.”

Did the Premier ask Mr. Lougheed to make this phone call or make this visit, and did she direct him to make this offer?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. I’ve taken the time to make sure that there is an understanding of why I’m not happy with the way in which the question is put, and I’ll explain it. I have to insist that members use parliamentary language when asking and answering questions. I accept that this is highly important, and I’m allowing the questions, which I should. But this perceived level of importance does not somehow exempt matters from normal rules of debate. It’s not acceptable to make allegations against another member, even if it is done with a clever inference or an insinuation.

The listener knows—I know—what is being implied. As it is said, you cannot indirectly do what you cannot do directly.

The standing orders—the rules of debate—in

section 23(h), on page 20, indicate clearly that you cannot make that charge. Hard-hitting questions are absolutely allowed, and answers are allowed. I know that the members are skillful enough to be able to reword their questions to avoid such a breach of the standing orders.

The member has done it again. Please avoid impugning somebody in the House for committing a crime. You will have one more attempt.

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: I completed my question, Mr. Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Thank you very much, Speaker. First of all, thank you for your clarification in this very important matter. I also find it surprising, given that the member opposite who posed the question is a defence counsel and I know firmly believes in the presumption of innocence—that he would pursue this line of questioning.

I think he is also very well aware, as a trial lawyer, of the importance of courts of law, the kind of evidentiary burden that is involved in a court of law, and the neutrality, impartiality and fairness of our judiciary in making those determinations based on evidence. I’m sure he recognizes, as does everybody else in this House, that this matter is before the courts. We should respect their jurisdiction and leave that matter in their hands.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Again to the Premier: Since the Premier doesn’t want to tell us about the conversations that she had with Ms. Sorbara and that she may or may not have had with Mr. Lougheed, and what they had to do with Mr. Olivier, I’m going to ask a different line of questioning.

In the sworn information filed yesterday, the OPP said that sometime between November 19, 2014, and February 6, 2014, Ms. Sorbara did “directly or indirectly give, procure or promise or agree to procure an office of employment to induce a person, to wit, Glenn Thibeault, to become a candidate contrary to

section 96.1(

e) of the Election Act.”

What did the Premier authorize, if anything, for Pat Sorbara to offer Mr. Glenn Thibeault to become the Liberal Party’s candidate?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I think the member opposite knows quite well that this is not the place to cross-examine on a sworn affidavit. The appropriate place for that is a court of law, in front of a judge. Speaker, to reaffirm what you’ve said and what I’ve said before, it’s our shared responsibility that this matter, which deals with some very serious allegations, be dealt with in a court of law. We owe that to Ontarians. We owe that to the people accused, who are presumed to be innocent in this matter until a determination by a judge.

Therefore, Speaker, again I urge the member opposite who posed the question, and all members, to respect our judiciary. Let’s focus on issues that are important to Ontarians.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: This is part two, I believe, Mr. Speaker.

The OPP alleges that Mr. Lougheed and Ms. Sorbara “committed the offence knowingly, and are thereby guilty of a corrupt practice.” Now, for the first time, we’ve learned that one of those charges relates to the now-Minister of Energy, Mr. Thibeault, and his Liberal Party candidacy.

Will the Premier tell us right now what were the 30 pieces of silver that she and Pat Sorbara offered to Mr. Thibeault to get—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order. The member will withdraw.

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Pass.

New question.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Patrick Brown: My question is for the Premier. In sworn information, the OPP says that between November 19, 2014, and February 6, 2015, Pat Sorbara did, “directly or indirectly give, procure or promise or agree to procure an office of employment to induce a person, to wit, Glenn Thibeault, to become a candidate contrary to

section 96.1(

e) of the Election Act.”

Mr. Speaker, this is shocking. My question for the Premier is, did the Premier’s deputy chief of staff offer the current Minister of Energy an office in order to induce him to become a candidate? We deserve an answer.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Thank you.

Mr. James J. Bradley: That was Laurie Scott you were talking about.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Take that outside, Jim.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Excuse me. I was quite prepared to deal with what I heard, and someone else has got herself into the mix. The chief government whip will come to order, and now the member from Nepean–Carleton will come to order.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Again, the same question has been asked, despite what you asked us to consider, Speaker. Again, my response remains the same because as the Attorney General I will—and the government will—remain very respectful of the jurisdiction of our courts. This matter has now, since the charges have been laid, proceeded to the courts, and it should be dealt with at that level.

I would reaffirm again that this matter will be handled by the Public Prosecution Service of Canada, and we’ll leave it up to those prosecutors to make the case based on whatever evidence they have available to them, and up to a judge to make a determination.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary, the member from Leeds–Grenville.

Mr. Steve Clark: Back to the Premier: Quite frankly, people want to hear from the Premier. They don’t want to hear from the Attorney General on this.

In the sworn information, the OPP said that between November 19, 2014, and February 6, 2015, Sorbara did, “directly or indirectly give, procure or promise or agree to procure an office of employment to induce a person, to wit, Glenn Thibeault, to become a candidate contrary to

section 96.1(

e) of the Election Act.”

Did the Premier’s deputy chief of staff offer the Minister of Energy an office in order to induce him to become a candidate?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Once again, the Premier has been very open with Ontarians. She has answered the questions of the media and she has answered questions surrounding these allegations right here in this House.

However, the Premier is also very mindful of her responsibility in terms of the process, in terms of the presumption of innocence, in terms of allegations being just allegations. The matter is before the courts. That is the most appropriate venue for it to be determined, with all the weight around rules of evidence and other procedures. We respect that and we look forward to having this matter dealt with within the courts.

By-election in Sudbury

M me France Gélinas: Ma question est pour la première ministre. The Premier appointed Mr. Gerry Lougheed to the Greater Sudbury Police Services Board in 2011, and then again in 2014. Yesterday, Mr. Lougheed was charged with bribery under the Ontario Election Act. When will the Premier rescind Mr. Lougheed’s appointment to the Greater Sudbury Police Services Board?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: The opposition can keep asking the same questions again and again. The answer does not—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Answer, please.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: The answer remains the same. These are allegations as they relate to a court matter. It is only appropriate that it be dealt with within the courts.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

M me France Gélinas: Yesterday Mrs. Sorbara was charged with bribery under the Ontario Election Act. Yesterday, Mr. Lougheed was charged with bribery under Ontario’s Election Act. Yesterday, the Premier asked Mrs. Sorbara to step aside.

Yesterday, the Premier did not ask Mr. Lougheed to step aside. For the people of Sudbury, it seems like a double standard. When will the Premier rescind Mr. Lougheed’s appointment to the Greater Sudbury Police Services Board?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: It’s my understanding, Speaker, that when it comes to appointments of the police services board, that’s a decision of the board itself, not of the Premier or the government. There is a process under the Police Services Act that is provided to deal with matters like this. It would be highly inappropriate for us to speculate as to how the process is—but I can assure you, Speaker, the Premier does not have the power or the capacity within the legislation to remove somebody from a police services board.

Seniors

Ms. Sophie Kiwala: My question is for the minister responsible for seniors affairs. Minister, I want to begin by thanking you for visiting my riding of Kingston and the Islands to visit with seniors. On Saturday, we had excellent coverage of your visit with OASIS, a non-profit seniors’ supportive living centre.

I was also very pleased that you visited the Kingston Seniors Association for their annual general meeting. It was great to see that you are making time to travel and meet with seniors right across Ontario. I’m sure that this is providing you with great insight into the unique challenges and opportunities faced by our communities across the province. Your efforts will undoubtedly give you a fresh perspective on what senior living means. I know there’s no replacement for that first-hand experience.

Mr. Speaker, can the minister responsible for seniors affairs inform the House about her experience meeting with seniors in Kingston and the Islands?

Hon. Dipika Damerla: I want to begin by thanking the honourable member for her important question. I just want to thank her, Mr. Speaker, for all of her advocacy on behalf of seniors in her riding. It was amply clear that the good people of Kingston are very appreciative of the member’s work, especially on behalf of the seniors.

As the member mentioned, I did in fact have the privilege of visiting seniors in Kingston, as well as in Ottawa, just last week. In Kingston I met with two groups who provided key insight into the challenges seniors are facing in Ontario. Mr. Speaker, not only did I get an insight into the challenges facing seniors in Ontario, but more importantly, I also got insight into how communities are coming together and taking the initiative to address these challenges. My meeting with OASIS, for example, was truly inspirational, where I had lunch with seniors who were so proud to be living independently.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Sophie Kiwala: I want to thank the minister for her answer and for her commitment to improving the lives of seniors in Ontario. I’m very pleased to hear that you’re so greatly inspired by the efforts these groups are making. I’ve been working with these groups as well, and I share your enthusiasm about their commitment and their energy. I agree that it is important to foster a sense of community and support between seniors’ groups.

As you mentioned, you did not just stop in Kingston, but travelled to Ottawa as well. I understand that during your visit, you met with leaders of many of Ottawa’s Elderly Person Centres and with students from the retirement home management program at Algonquin College. Mr. Speaker, could the minister update this House about her meetings with these different groups in Ottawa?

Hon. Dipika Damerla: Again, I want to thank the member from Kingston and the Islands for this question. Indeed, I did go to Ottawa, as well, where at the Good Companions seniors centre I met with a number of representatives from the Elderly Persons Centre leaders in the area. At the Good Companions seniors centre, I was very impressed by this one facility, a ground-breaking program for seniors that is called Seniors’ Centre Without Walls, where a telephone program is used to offer recreational, educational and health-based phone seminars for individuals unable to physically access community centres.

This is a great example of using a low-cost, innovative way through the telephone of addressing social isolation. I came away very impressed with this program.

I also visited Algonquin College’s ambitious adult day program for seniors with dementia.

By-election in Sudbury

Ms. Sylvia Jones: To the Premier: The Premier’s deputy chief of staff has been charged with bribery by the OPP. The people of Ontario want to hear from the Premier: Did the Premier’s deputy chief of staff offer the Minister of Energy an office in order to induce him to become a candidate?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: The Premier has spoken about this issue. She has answered questions in the media. She has answered questions in this House.

Now that there are charges laid, it’s highly inappropriate for anybody to engage in a conversation. That’s not appropriate, Speaker. The matter is before the courts, and it is our shared responsibility that we respect that and let it be dealt with in a court of law.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary? The member from Nipissing.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct this to the Premier, please.

The Premier’s deputy chief of staff has been charged with bribery by the OPP. The people of Ontario want to hear from the Premier: Did the Premier’s deputy chief of staff offer the Minister of Energy an office in order to induce him to become a candidate?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: The Premier has addressed this question today here in the House, and she has done so with the media. The Premier has been absolutely transparent.

But the Premier also respects the court process. This is not the time or the place to engage in any kind of cross-examination. That place is in the court, and we should respect that. I urge again all members to follow the rules that have been outlined in the standing orders, as you indicated earlier, Speaker, where we respect legal proceedings, and not prejudice those proceedings whatsoever.

Long-term care

Mr. Wayne Gates: My question is to the Premier.

Yesterday, I was back in Niagara to meet with Helen. Helen has been put in a terrible position by this government. You see, her parents have been married for 70 years and were never apart before they needed long-term care in August. Helen’s father, Clarence, is a resident of Shalom Manor in Grimsby, but her mom, Jessie, is at a home in St. Catharines.

Clarence and Jessie have never been separated. In their final years, after spending a lifetime together, and under a completely inadequate couple reunification program, chances are they may never live together again.

My question is simple: What will the Premier do today to help Helen reunite her parents and make sure they don’t spend another day apart?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I know that the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care is going to want to speak to this. But I just want to say personally to the member opposite that this is an issue that is extremely important to me personally and, I think, to all of us in this House. We all know couples, whether they are our parents or whether they are our grandparents or whether they are our aunts and uncles—we know people who have been together for 50, 60 years, who need to be together in those years. It’s like they have become one unit. So we are doing everything we can to make sure that that is the standard, that that is what happens in every situation.

As I say, I know that the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care will want to speak to the specifics.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Wayne Gates: I know that no one in this House today, including the health minister, would ever want their parents to be separated, in two different long-term facilities in different cities, after a lifetime together. It is wrong for couples to be separated after spending 70 years together just because they need long-term care.

Jessie is 92 and Clarence is 93 years old. They miss each other terribly. They need to be together. They are worried about each other and should not be divorced by a long-term-care system.

Will the Premier commit today to reunify Jessie and Clarence and give them the dignity and the respect of living together for their final years?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Health and Long-Term Care.

Hon. Eric Hoskins: This is an extremely important issue. We’re talking about people’s homes and we’re talking about two individuals who should reside in the same home. They shouldn’t be separated. In fact, in our long-term-care system, the highest priority we have for finding a bed, for transferring to a different bed, is spousal reunification. There is no other priority that we attach a higher priority to. In fact, we introduced regulations in our Long-Term Care Homes Act to enable residents in different homes to be reunified. It should never happen in the first place.

This is the first I’m hearing of this. I only wish that the member had actually approached me on this. I can’t speak to the specific issue, but rather than raise it in this forum, I believe it’s an issue that we could have resolved together, Mr. Speaker.

Economic development

Ms. Daiene Vernile: My question is for the Minister of Economic Development and Growth. We see Ontario’s information, communications and technology sector growing rapidly and driving innovation in our economy. When you visit my riding of Kitchener Centre, you certainly see evidence of that.

Waterloo region is where the smart phone—the BlackBerry—was invented. And it’s where young entrepreneurs continue to innovate in software and hardware creation, and in future technology that will no doubt change the way that we live. This dynamic entrepreneurial environment, in conjunction with the GTA, has been labelled the “Toronto-Waterloo technology region corridor,” with companies such as Google, Shopify, Thalmic Labs and Research in Motion leading the way, and thousands—yes, thousands—of tech start-ups. These businesses are creating well-paying jobs.

Speaker, the minister was recently in California pitching Ontario. Could he please tell us about the prospects that came out of that trip?

Hon. Brad Duguid: I want to thank the member for Kitchener Centre for that question, but more so for being such a huge champion of innovation in the ICT sector in her community of Kitchener-Waterloo.

As I try to respond to that question, Mr. Speaker, I think about how important it is for us to accomplish our role of passing on a good economy, a thriving economy, to the next generation. When I look at the fact that Ontario is now second in North America in ICT to California, and I look at Chloe, Gerry Phillips’s granddaughter over here, as Gerry is preoccupied with one of my colleagues—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): To the Chair, please.

Hon. Brad Duguid: I say that’s what it’s all about, Mr. Speaker: the young folks here in this audience. It’s building that next-generation economy.

The fact that we’re number two in North America and the fact that we’re attracting investments from Slack, Square, Google, Cisco and Amazon—all those companies—bodes well for our economic future.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Daiene Vernile: I’d like to thank the minister for his answer. It’s very encouraging to hear that he’s actively promoting our most innovative companies and expanding access to global markets.

When I sit down to hear from tech sector stakeholders in Kitchener Centre, especially those who have chosen to locate in our community, they always offer a very long list of very interesting reasons as to why they’ve chosen Waterloo region and Ontario to hang a shingle.

I can tell you that my own son started a high-tech company in Kitchener a few years ago. He has a subsidiary in southern California and a sales team in the Pacific Rim, but he chooses to keep home base for his company in Ontario for a number of reasons.

Speaker, could the minister please speak about that? Considering the intense competition on the global scene, what makes Ontario an outstanding place to do business, especially in the tech sector, and what else is this government doing to ensure growth in this sector?

Hon. Brad Duguid: The member from Kitchener Centre is bang on. We need to continue to help our local companies grow, as well. We need to help them scale up. They’re doing extremely well and we’re producing some of the best young, talented entrepreneurs anywhere in the world today. Our role now is to help them scale up so they can create huge multinational companies.

We need to maintain that global edge by ensuring we have the lowest effective corporate tax rates in North America. That helps. We need to ensure we have the most generous R&D tax credits in North America, which we have, which is attracting them. And we need to ensure that that huge flow of talent coming out of our post-secondary institutions, which is attracting investments to Ontario and helping these companies scale up, continues.

Mr. Speaker, we’re going to continue to work with them on that through our business growth initiative. We’re going to continue to drive this economy, and we’re going to continue to help those young, successful entrepreneurs scale up to become globally competitive.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Steve Clark: My question is to the Minister of Energy. In the sworn information, the OPP says that between November 19, 2014, and February 6, 2015, Sorbara did “directly or indirectly give, procure or promise or agree to procure an office of employment to induce a person, to wit, Glenn Thibeault, to become a candidate contrary to

section 96.1(

e) of the Election Act.”

My question, Minister: What were you offered to become a candidate?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): There are two issues that I would share with you. First, within the ministry responsibilities, that’s what’s supposed to happen when question period is on for the government. The second issue is that—it’s what I spoke of when I responded to someone earlier, in that it was a side way to do what I asked not to happen, which is to imply somebody was doing something improper.

If that’s the case and I am going to rule on the ministry stuff, I’m going to ask the member to re-ask the question in a way that does not make an implied allegation. I’ll let the member have an attempt to ask that question in a different way.

Mr. Steve Clark: My question: What were you promised to become the Minister of Energy?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’m not going to permit that question because of the nature in which I explained already.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Excuse me. Stop the clock.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Oxford will come to order. The member from Nepean–Carleton will come to order. The member from Simcoe–Grey will come to order. The member from Dufferin–Caledon will come to order.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Dufferin-Caledon, second time.

The member from Leeds–Grenville.

Mr. Steve Clark: I want him to answer to the question.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Leeds–Grenville—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): You’re not being helpful.

The member from Leeds–Grenville, come to order.

Mr. Steve Clark: I still want an answer.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Leeds–Grenville, second time.

Mr. Steve Clark: Speaker, I’m not going to withdraw. I want an answer.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Leeds–Grenville is warned.

Mr. Steve Clark: I want an answer.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Leeds–Grenville is warned.

Mr. Steve Clark: I want an answer.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Next question. The member from Nickel Belt.

Mr. Steve Clark: I want an answer.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Leeds–Grenville is named.

Mr. Clark was escorted from the chamber.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Finance will come to order.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Finance, second time.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Education will come to order. The Minister of Finance—I don’t think he heard me—it’s the second time.

Hon. Charles Sousa: My apologies.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Davenport, come to order.

New question. The member from Nickel Belt—sorry, the member from Bramalea–Gore–Malton.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: My question is for the Premier. The OPP alleges that Mr. Lougheed and Ms. Sorbara “committed the offence knowingly, and are thereby guilty of a corrupt practice.” Now, for the first time, we’ve learned that one of those charges relates to the offer that Ms. Sorbara made—whether or not it was made—to Mr. Thibeault, now the Minister of Energy, to become the Liberal Party’s candidate.

Will the Premier tell us if she was aware of what was offered, what the discussions were, and who made those discussions to Mr. Thibeault to get him to run for the Liberal Party?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Again, the member opposite is a defence counsel. He has been in the courts a lot, and I know that he knows the process. I know that he knows and understands the concept of presumption of innocence. I know that he knows the sub judice rules that are outlined in the standing orders. So I am a bit surprised that he continues, on behalf of his party and operatives, to ask the same questions, when he knows that this is not the appropriate place to answer.

Once again, I respectfully ask the members opposite to recognize and respect our shared responsibility and let this matter be dealt with in the courts of law.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: There are certain things that are achieved in the court of justice, through the criminal justice system, which require proof beyond a reasonable doubt. There are certain questions that can be answered here in Parliament. I stand by that very proudly, and we need to get those questions answered here.

The members of Parliament in Ottawa made a salary of about $167,000 last year. MPPs in this House make significantly less. But cabinet ministers here in Ontario make about $166,000, which is virtually the same as what MPPs in Ottawa make.

Now, who ever discussed with Ms. Sorbara the bridging of the salary gap between Mr. Thibeault’s MP salary and the MPP salary and whether or not appointing him to the cabinet was a part of that discussion?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Speaker, that is just an absolutely ridiculous question. I think that according to the member’s math, the member from Sudbury took a $60,000 or $70,000 pay cut so that he could serve the people of his riding. That’s what may have motivated the member from Sudbury to run, so he can continue to build schools and hospitals in his community, so he can serve his constituents in a manner that is relevant to their lives.

Again we find, and I find, these lines of questioning highly inappropriate because they impugn motives, as you have stated earlier. This matter is before the courts. Let us respect their jurisdiction.

Northern Ontario film industry

Ms. Ann Hoggarth: My question today is for the Minister of Northern Development and Mines. It is important for northerners to know that their government is making investments in the north that will encourage job creation and economic activity. More and more film and television productions are looking to northern Ontario. Well-known, critically acclaimed films such as Sleeping Giant and Born to be Blue were both produced in northern Ontario.

I understand that the film industry in northern Ontario is a significant source of jobs and plays an important role in the local economy. Mr. Speaker, can the minister please explain what this government is doing to support job creation in northern Ontario and to support northern Ontario’s film industry?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: Thanks to the member for Barrie for that question. We are very proud that, through the Northern Ontario Heritage Fund Corp., we’re really building a film industry in the north.

Just last month, I was joined by Jennifer Jonas, producer of the acclaimed film Born to be Blue, to host a screening of the film in my riding of Thunder Bay–Superior North. It was a great opportunity to celebrate the dynamic films being funded through the Northern Ontario Heritage Fund Corp.

Our government is working hard every single day to help strengthen and diversify the northern economy and create good-quality jobs for people in the north by supporting the rapidly growing film and television production sector in the north.

When film and television productions come to town in any community, local hotels, restaurants and businesses see increased activity. We are seeing film equipment studios being put together and film board studios being put together. Local residents are finding opportunities for spots as extras on the set or jobs as crew members. Through the Northern Ontario Heritage Fund Corp., our government is continuing to work hard to build great economic development momentum in northern Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Ann Hoggarth: It is clear that this government is committed to supporting and growing the film and television industry in northern Ontario. This support is critical because for every $1 million of film and television production, it ends up generating 21 full-time direct and associated jobs.

I understand that the minister recently made some announcements in northern Ontario on the investments that the government is making through the NOHFC for the television and film industry in the north. Speaker, through you to the minister, can the minister please explain how these investments have helped the television and film industry in the north and what this means for the people in northern Ontario?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: I thank the member for Barrie for the question. It really is a tremendous story. Last year, film and television production added $1.5 billion to the provincial economy, securing Ontario as the number one film and television production centre in Canada and the third largest by volume in North America, behind only California and New York. In this past year alone, the Northern Ontario Heritage Fund Corp. has invested over $13 million in 23 film projects produced across the north. That means that all kinds of communities are benefiting from it.

Because of the NOHFC’s investments in the film industry, the north is now home to equipment rental companies, film studios, casting companies and post-production facilities. This is allowing for full-service production facilities right here in northern Ontario.

Investments in film and television production are part of our economic plan to build up northern Ontario, delivering on our number one priority: to grow the economy and to create jobs.

By-election in Sudbury

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: My question is to the Premier. Is the Premier aware of what was discussed between Mr. Thibeault and Ms. Sorbara when it came to him running for the Liberal Party?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Attorney General.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: This matter is before the courts. We respect the jurisdiction of the courts, and I urge all members to do the same.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: If there was any offer made, who made the offer and what did it consist of?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: This matter is before the courts, and it would be highly inappropriate to answer any such questions in this House. We ask all members to respect the jurisdiction of the courts.

Consumer protection

Mrs. Cristina Martins: My question is for the Attorney General. Many Canadians were moved and inspired by the outstanding performance by Gord Downie and the Tragically Hip during their farewell tour this summer. However, many Hip fans, including many from my own riding of Davenport and really from all across Ontario, could not get tickets to see this iconic Canadian band perform for the last time. In a matter of seconds, shows across the province were sold out, with some tickets later appearing on the secondary market at an inflated price. This is wrong, and this left fans frustrated and disappointed.

I also know that this happens with other concerts and sporting events. Fans just can’t get tickets, no matter how hard they try.

I know that the Attorney General agrees that is this is a problem and that our government needs to take action to help fans across Ontario have a fair shake at getting tickets to their favourite events. Can the Attorney General please tell this House about our government’s plan?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I want to thank the member from Davenport for asking a very important question. Too many people across Ontario know what it’s like to try to get tickets for their favourite band or sports team, only to find out that the tickets are sold out in seconds and are being resold at an inflated price on the secondary market. What happened with Tragically Hip tickets this summer is a case in point.

It personally really bugged me that fans weren’t getting a fair shot at buying those tickets. I was really inspired by the MPP from Kingston and the Islands, who identified why this is happening. Scalper bots were buying up huge numbers of tickets in seconds with just a few clicks of a mouse.

This member had a great idea, that we need to ban scalper bots. I would like to thank the member for her hard work on this issue and for her idea that will help fans across Ontario.

I’m pleased to let this House know that, building on the work of the member from Kingston and the Islands, I’m committed to taking action as the Attorney General. This spring, I will be introducing legislation that would, if passed, ban scalper bots.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mrs. Cristina Martins: I want to thank the Attorney General for his response. I’m pleased to hear that our government is committed to taking actio