Manitoba Hansard — 26 October 1990 (Sitting 12, 35th Legislature, 1st Session)

35-1-12

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authorlly of Tha Honourable Denls c. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXIX No.12 ·10 a. m., FRIDAY, OCTOBER 26,1990 Printed by lite Office of lite Qwens Prlnler. Province of Manlloba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL V Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRE TT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERIL LI, Marianne CHEE MA, Gulzar CHOM IAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward, Hon. CUMM INGS, Gl en, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, Jam es, Hon. DRI EDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS, Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FIN DLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIE SEN , Jean GAUDRY, Neil GIL LESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Eli jah HELWER, Edward R.

HIC KES, Geor ge LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack, Hon. PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric STORIE , Jerr y SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YC IA-LEIS, Ju dy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thom pson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. Jam es Lake side Charleswood lnterlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossm ere Pembina Emer son Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, October 26, 1990 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Ho n. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I may have leave to deal with a matter during yesterday's Question Period, which I would like to deal with at this time. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Mem ber have leave? No leave. ·· TABUNG OF REPORTS Ho n. Bonnle Mltchelson (Minister of Culture, Heri tage and Recreation) : Mr.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to tab le the Annual Report for 1989-90 for the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation and the Annual Report for 1989-90 for the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, may I direct the attention of Honourable Mem bers tci·the gallery, where we have from the Grant Park High School eighteen Grade 9 students. They are under the direction of Mr. Ed Lenzmann. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Crescentwood (Mr. Carr) .

On behalf of all Honour able Members, I welcome you here this morning. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): May I now have leave from the Memb ers to deal with the matter? An Honourable Memb er: You do not need leave. Mr. Downey: Thank you , Mr. Sp eaker -(i nterjection)- I was recognized. An Honourable Member: He does not need leave. Mr. Speaker: Orde r, please. The Honour able Minister on a point of order? Mr. Downey : No, I am dealing with Question Period, Mr. Speaker, from yesterday's Question Period. Mr. Speaker: Responding to a question? Mr. Downey: Mr.

Speaker, I want to make it clear from yesterday's Question Period, it was not my intention while speaking on the point of order to reflect in any way on my friends, the people of northern Manitoba. I want to apologize to them and to the House for my com ments. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. *

(1005) Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): First of all, it is not appropriate for this Minister to attempt to abuse Question Period today in the way that he is doing, and if he thinks that standing up today and trying to withdraw those com ments, which show the true intention of this Minister, is going to make any difference for the fact that he is no longer anything other than Minister of Northern Affairs in name only, he has another- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. On that same point of order, the Honourable Government House Leader--on that same point of order. Hon.

Clayton Manne ss (Govern ment House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I cannot believe that any Mem ber of this House would rise in his or her place and suggest that a Mem ber, an opposite Member, does not have the right to stand and make an apology, a full apology, to the people of this province. I cannot believe that anybody would want to play pol itics to that extent, that they would not allow a Member to stand and make a full apology for somet hing that was said yesterday. Fur ther mo re , Mr. Speaker, you said "oral questions," the Mem ber stood and was recognized by you. He has the right to stand and make a statement.

Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order please. The Honourable Minister of Northern and Native Affairs (Mr . Downey) would have had an opportunity to rise on a matter of privilege. In that way the Honourable Minister would have had an opportunity to withdraw his comments or apologize. In that respect, the Honourable Minister is out of order.

433 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA October 26, 1990 The Hono urable Member for Thom pson (Mr. Ashton), in his point of order, the Honourable Minister, I believe, was abusing Question Period in that way. I was asking the Honourable Minister whether or not he was rising to respond to a question, at which time I was told that he was. Then he said I am responding to a point of order. There was a point of order which I have taken under advisement-no, I did not- there was no point of order on that one. For clarification, the Hono urable Government House Leader? Mr. Manness: Mr.

Speaker, how do we resolve a problem like this? I made a response yesterday that was inaccurate, on the record, with respect to sales tax revenue. Do I have the oppor tun ity, as a Minister, to stand in my place to correct the record? Is that not similar to the Minister of Northern Affairs also wanting to correct the record? I honestly do have to make a change of a figure I put on the record yesterday. Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Speaker, if the Government House Leader wants to know how a Mem ber resolves matters such as this I would suggest, given the statements made yesterday, it would have been appropriate for that Memb er to resign as Minister of Northern Affairs- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Ashton: ... Question Period, and the Memb er has been in this House for nine years. He knows full well that Ministers may rise in response to questions taken as notice. I would say if the Minister had any statement to make to th is House, he could have done so as part of Ministerial Statements, which is part of our regular Order Paper.

What the Minister did was an abuse of Question Period. Question Period is an opportu nity for all Mem bers, particularly the Opposition Mem bers, to ask questions, Mr. Speaker, of the Government, not for Mem bers of the Government to make statements . Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The Hono urable Govern men t House Leader asked me for some clarification. The Honourable Minister, I believe that once you would have the floor, because you have put inaccurate information on the record, would have an opportunity to correct such informat ion, on that point of clarification.

Minister of Northern Affairs Resignation Request Mr. Jerry Storle (FIIn Flon}: Mr. Speaker, the belated apology of the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) would have been acceptable if it was sincere. Mr. Speaker, my question- Some Honourable Members : Oh, oh I Point of Order Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Ho nourable Government House Leader, on a point of order. Hon. Clayton Ma nne ss (Gove rnment House Leader}: On the point of order, Mr.

Speaker, it is not any Mem ber's right to stand in this place and call into question the sincerity of any statement of any other Memb er, and I say he be called to order. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. On the same point of order, the Memb er for Flin Aon. Mr. Storle: Mr. Speaker, this Member did not repeat this state men t accidental ly. This Mem ber, the Minister of Northern Affairs- Mr. Speaker: On the point of order. Mr. Storle: -ye lled from his seat a com ment that was derogatory, demeaning and threatening to the people of northern- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please.

The Honourable Opposition House Leader, on that point of order. *

(1010) Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader}: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order, I realize we are in a difficult situation, because the Minister rose in an inappropriate time and placed a statement on the record in a way that he should not have, which has not been accepted by this side of the House. I believe that is what the Member for Ain Aon was referring to, was the fact that whatever the Minister said is totally unacceptable to this side of the House and, Mr. Speak er, that it was a response to com ments that had been made in fact by the Government House Leader.

I would suggest that we get on with Question Period, because I know, Mr. Speaker, many of us have a numb er of questions today, particularly to the First Minister (Mr. Film on) in regard to the actions of that so-cal led Minister of Northern Affairs. Mr. Speaker: Order, please . The Hon ourable Mem ber for Flin Flon was reflecting upon the

October 26, 1 990 LEGISLA TIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 434 Minister of Northern and Native Affairs. I would ask the Honourable Memb er for Flin Aon to withdraw those comments . Mr. Storle: Mr. Speaker, the com ments that I made were a sincere reflection of what I believe. The Minister of Northern Affairs has travelled northern Manitoba- Some Honour able Members : Withdraw. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Storle: and implied the same thing in many conversations- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Storle: Mr. Speaker, he is denying the people of northern Manitoba the right to vote with their conscience and- Mr.

Speaker : Order, please. The Honour able Mem ber for Fl in Flon, to withd raw , with no qualification. Mr. Storle: -and what they -(ina udible)- best interests. The Minister had an opportunit y to correct hims elf, and he- Mr. Speaker: Order, plea se. The Honour able Memb er for Ain Flon, to withdraw the reflection made upon the Honour able Minister. Mr. Storle: Mr. Speaker, I will withdraw the word "insincere"- Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Memb er for Flin Flon. The Honourable Mem ber for Flin Flon, question. *** Mr. Storle: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

In the throne speech and speeches that this First Minis ter has ma de thr oug hou t the province, he promised the people of Manitoba fair and equitable Government. Mr. Speaker, yesterday his Minister of Northern Affairs, his Deputy Premie r, the second in com mand in this province, indicated to a region of this province that because they did not vote in accordance with the wishes of the Minister of Northern Affairs, they were going to be penalized. Will this First Minister remove the Minister of Northern Affairs from his responsibilities and strip him of his responsibilities as Deputy Premier of this province?

Point of Order Mr. Speaker: Order, please . The Honour able Government House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Manness: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the Rules of our House demand that when Members opposite pose questions to the Government that the

preamble and the facts contained therein be factual. At no tim e-one can search the record-at no time can anybody find within the record a statement by the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) that indeed any individuals, any service offered by the Government in the North is going to be penalized as a result as to how they vote. Mr. Speaker: Order, please . The Honour able Opposition House Leader, on that same point of order. Mr. Ashton : Mr.

Speaker, on the point of order, the Minister of Northern Affairs, first in his seat and then on his feet, officially recorded in Hansard, on both occasions made it quite clear, and it says, I will make the comm ent very clear, and that is, unfortunate they do not know how to vote, Mr. Speaker. He made it very clear that he felt the Northerners did not know how to vote, and it was very clear to all Member s of this House that Northerners were being penal ized because they did not vote for that incompetent Government. Mr. Speaker : Order, please .

The Hon ourable Government House Leader did not have a point of order. *** Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, I regret that the Mem ber for Ain Aon insists on playing politics with this issue. I know that they have nothing of subs tance on which they can criticize this Government or the budget that we brought down. They were absolutely floundering yesterday in both Question Period and in their Leader's speech. lt was one of the weakest responses to a budget that I have seen in my history in this Legislature.

To get to the point of the Member 's question, the fact of the matter is that the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey), in responding yesterday, recognized that what he said might have been misinterpret ed, might have been taken as a slight or in some way as a criticism or in some way as an inappropriate rem ark. He rose today to withdraw that remark and to apologize to the people of

435 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA October 26, 19 90 northern Manitoba , and it is in my judgment the sincere and the right thing to do. Now, if the Memb er for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) wants to be petty and small minded and political about this, he can carry on with it, but if he wants to take this as a representative of those people who have been apologized to- *

(1015) Point of Order Mr. Storle: Mr. Speaker, the House Leader on the opposit e side rose on seve ral occas ions and corrected me, asked you, Mr. Speaker, to correct myself in terms of impugning motives. Mr. Speaker, I did not raise this matter because I wanted to be petty or small. I raised this matter because this First Minister does not seem to believe that the people in northern Manitoba have a right to vote with their conscience, to vote what they believe is in their best interests. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The Honourable Memb er does not have a point of order.

That is a dispute over the facts. The Honourable First Minister, to finish his response. *** Mr. Fllmon : I have said time and time and time again that I respect everybody's right to vote with their conscience and to vote in whatever way they see as best in their interests, Mr. Speaker. That is the view of this Government. That is the view of me as Premier of this province. I will fight as long as I am in this Legislature for the right of people to do that. Mr. Storle: Mr.

Speaker, I will then ask the First Minister to defend the rights of my constituency by remov ing the Minister of Northern Affairs, who does not believe that the people in northern Manitoba have a right to vote with their conscience. Hudson Bay Mining & Smelting Modernization Mr. Jerry Storle (FIIn Flon) : Mr. Speaker, my question to the First Minister is: Can this Minister tell the people of A in Flon why the modernization effort has been held up for two and a half years because of the stalling of this Government?

The question to the First Minister is: Does this reflect the attitude of the Minister of Northern Affairs about people in my constituency? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I can tell you very directly that two and a half years ago of cour se the New Democ rats did not com mi t themselves when they were in Government to this modernization in Flin Aon.

We have made a very large and very substantial contribution. ln fact, given that there were limited funds available from Ottawa with re spect to acid rain abate men t, this Government has had to take a com mitment that is mo re than double the commitmen t that has been laid on the table by the federal Government. We have made that com mitment, Mr. Speaker.

If he is interested in truly helping his constituents, he might look to find out why HBM&S is having difficulty putting together their own package of support with their own resources, their funding, their financing package from the banks and the other institutions to whom they have to turn. He would work to try and ensure that that package does come together, but this Government has put on the table a package that is more generous, I believe, than even the com pany expected to get, because of our comm itment to the people of Flin Flon. Minister of Northern Affairs Resignation Request Mr.

Jerry Storle (FIIn Flon) : Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary is to the First Minister. Yesterday, we asked the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) and this First Minister to justify a $400,000 cut to local Governm ent developm ent in the Department of Northern Affairs, to justify other cuts in health care and education in Northern Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, will this Minister remove the Minister of Northern Affairs so that the people in the North will have som e confidence that they are being dealt with fairly and honestly and openly and equitably? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr.

Speaker, you know these are questions that are very appropriate for Estima tes, where you go into detail as to what were the specific changes. One of the major changes, for instance , in the Dep artm ent of Northern Affairs budgeting is the fact that the Limes tone Aboriginal Partnership Developmen t Board no longer is in operation. Why? Because Limestone is being com pleted at the present time. All of the things that were involved in training and developm ent for those areas are for a project that has now been com pleted, so that board no longer exists.

Over a half million dollars was taken out because that board no longer exists, because its

October 26, 1 990 LEGISLA TIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 436 mandate was comple ted. That was a decision that just follows up on the mandate that was given to that board by the NDP Government. So, Mr. Speaker, this has absolutely nothing to do-e very area of the budget there are choices that are made, priority choices, choices as to whether or not you provide the funding to try and reduce the waiting lists- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The Honourable Mem ber for Thom pson. * (1 020) Community Economic Development Fund Economic Forecast Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson) : My question is to the Prem ier.

When I was first elected as a Memb er of the Legislature, I made a comm itment to work on behalf of all my constituents. I never once asked anybody how they voted in a previous election and never once penalized or even considered that, and that is the concern here. There is clear evidence that the North is being penalized by this Government and by the actions of this incom petent Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey).

I would like to specifically ask the Premier, and this is based on the most recent report of CE DF, whether he considers it acceptable that the Minister of Northern Affairs has led to the situation where the mo st recent report resulted in 31 jobs created or lost, com pared to the previous 21 0 in the last year of the NDP Governmen t-$700 ,000 in terms of loans issued instead of $3.5 mill ion. Mr. Speaker, is it acceptable on behalf of a Mini ste r of the Government to have that level of incom petence of CEDF- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable First Minister. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr.

Speaker, I am deligh ted that the Memb er brings up CEDF , because there indeed was a Crown corporation that had been totally politically ma nipulated and had been tot ally taken away fro m its man date of providing econom ic developm ent for northern and remote comm unities in this province. We rememb er the scandal of that corporation being used to give specific funding to the person who had provided the office space and support for the Member for Rupertsland (Mr. Harper) in his election cam paign.

We rememb er them tot ally abusing that corporation by giving a loan to the form er NDP Member for Thom pson, operating out of Sas katchewan, setting up a postal box in Nee paw a to be able to be eligible for funding under CEDF, a total abuse, and as a result hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars of loan losses because of political decisions being made by the NDP to abuse that CEDF corporation.

We have been working to clean that up, so that corporation has been operating sensibly in a fashion that is I think in keeping with this kind of mandate to do things on a businesslike basis, not to be abused for political purposes by the form er administration. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, this Minister went on a witch hunt at CEDF. The loans dropped from $3.5 million to $750,000.00. This Minister went and hired his executive assistant as the- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Point of Order Ho n. Clayton Manne ss (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I implore you to bring the Memb er to order.

Not only is he entertaining a supplementary

preamble, but his editorializing of the remarks made by the Premier, which are all factual, shows his desperation, and again he is engaging in an argumentative fashion. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. On the point of order raised, I would like to remind the Honourable Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) that I had recognized him for a supplem entary question. The Honourable Member is quite aware that a supplemen tary question should not require a

preamble, and I believe the Honourable Mem ber was ju st about to pose his question. Minister of Northern Affairs Resignation Request Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Thank you, Mr. Speak er. My question is quite simple, to the Prem ier. Why will he not remove this Minister when the evidence that the record of this Minister is one of political manipulation and incompetence ? Why will he not remove this Minister? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. The Honourable First Minister. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, we now see the tragic changes in the New Democratic Party from the time when they were a Party of principle, the time in which people like Ed Schreyer really tried

437 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA October 26, 1990 to bring in changes in legislation that allowed for public servants to be able to run for office. Now of course the Mem ber for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) says that you can only run for office if you run for his Party, if you are a public servant, but if you choose to run for another Party then he is going to condemn you, and he is going to try and make a political issue of it. That is the depth to which this Party has dropped. I think that is a tragedy to see those people across the way and their political -(inter jection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, the reality is that CEDF has been brought on to a businesslike basis, that it has cut its hundreds of thous ands of politically motivated loan losses to a point that now it is making investm ents that make sense, that have a chance of econom ic survival and prosperity in the future. lt is doing so by ha ving virtual ly change d th at corporation back to the mandate that it had when Ed Schreyer formed it, not to the mandate that it had when it was political ly manipula ted under the Memb er for Thom pson (Mr.

Ashton) and all of his nor thern colleagues dur ing the Pawley administration. * (1 025) Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, how can the Rrst Minister (Mr. Rlmo

n) describe CEDF as being run in a businesslike fashion when the average cost per job crea ted went in the last year of the NDP Government from $5,000 to 45,000 in administrative costs. Will the Minister now ask for the resignation of the Minister responsible for CEDF, who has proven his incom petance? Mr. Fllmon : Mr.

Speaker, you know when you talk about real comm itment to the North, not just rhetoric, not just the kind of flim- flam that we got from the NDP, CEDF is a corporation that was set up for the specific purpose of prov iding loan capital for corporations and businesses in the northern and rem ote areas of this province. Where was it set up? In Winnipeg. Does that make any sense? We changed it and put it up to Thomps on.

We put it into the North because it was a dismal failure-huge loan losses, huge rightoffs, huge deficits as a result of political manipulation, politically motivated loans that never had a chance of success. Now it is operating in Thom pson on a businesslike basis, directed to what it was always intended. That is providing loan capital and venture capital for northern and remote com munities and the businesses in their areas. Immigration Policy Family Reunlflcatlon Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (leader of the Second Oppositi on) : Mr.

Speaker, this appears to be a day for apologies, first from the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey), and we anticipate there will be one shortly from the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness). I am deeply disturbed about com ments that our Prem ier (Mr. Filmon) made yesterday about the imm igration policy in this nation , stateme nts which in dic ate tha t the focus mu st change from com passionate grounds to more marketable skills. Throughout the recent election campaign this Prem ier made fam ily a focus of his campaign.

Indeed, his wife conducted a letter writing campaign indicating the wonderful fam ily skills that this particular Prem ier had. I do not question those characteristics, because I think every individual in this House is proud of their fam ily and the ir responsibilities to their fam ilies. I want to know why this Premier would deny those same fam ily obl igations and responsibilities to new immi grants in this province. Hon . Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that I do not deny that .

In all of my discussions on this issue I have said that in addition to all of these criteria on corn passionate grounds for fam ily reunification -(int erjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, if the Member for The Maples wants to put his comm ents on the record I would invite him-yes, if you would like to put your com ments on the record I would invite them. I have said that in addition to fam ily reunification, in addition to refugee requirements, we should also be able to target them for the skills.

I have always consistently talked about increasing the proportion of imm igrants that we were getting this way so that -(i nterjection)- no, in addition. Do you understand? Plus, in addition, not instead of, never, ! have never said- Some Honour able Members : Oh, ohl Mr. Speaker: Order.

October 26, 1 990 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 438 Mr. Fllmon: Read them. I did not say that. The headline is not a quote. Read them. l said in addition to the grounds on which we currently have them I want to increase the proportion of imm igration, and I want that increase to come from people who have skills tha t fit the needs of our ec onomic developm ent. I will consistently argue that case everywhere I go in this province and across this country. ..

(1030) Mrs. Carstalrs: In quotes, the Premier did say that with family re unification we do not end up getting the skills we want. Can the Prem ier prove and show proof to this House why fa mily reunification and economic developmen t is in his mind absolute ly incom patible? Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, I will repeat for the benefit of the Leader of the third Party that in addition to the criteria for compassi onate grounds, such as fam ily reunification and refugee status, both of which are important for us as a caring society, as an open and generous society in Canada, we also need to be considering to a greater extent the skills that people bring so we can add a category that has been virtually lacking in the past decade and that category -(interjecti on)- Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Fllmon: In addition to all of those categories, we mu st have categories that allow us to target for people with the skills that will help us develop our economy in this province and that will also be much stro nger in th eir comm itm ent to this province. Because of the fact that they will have jobs, they will have opportu nities that will keep them productive and active here and will be very important. We have had our proportion of imm igration to this province reduced in half as a proportion of the imm igrants that we get from across this country, coming into this country.

We think that we need mo re immigrants to help us build the economy, to help us ensure that we have better opportunities in futur e. Mrs. Carstalrs: Obviously this Premier (Mr. Film on) does not understand the costs of immi gration to this nation, because family reunification is the least expensive imm igration in terms of settling, because the families look after their own. Will this Minister now repudiate his statement that he believes the focus should be put on sk ills and away from com passionate grounds for the basis of the imm igration policy in Canada? Mr. Fllmon : Mr.

Speak er, I bel ieve that as a generous, open and caring society-and I have said this on many, many public forum. When I went to Hong Kong last year, people told me over and over again that Canada was the most generous and open soci ety in the world in terms of accepting immi grants. I believe that is a very positive thing and a very strong recomme ndation for this country and the kind of nation that we have built and that we want to continue to be.

In addition to that we have to have the opportunity as well to draw on people on an individual basis, in addition to family reunification, in addition to those who come here on a refugee status basis, to people to draw on people who must come to this country to bring skills that we need. We are short of people to work in a variety of areas that -(i nterjection)- We have a program to assist those who come with professional skills to practice their professions, to assist them in obtaining their certification of those.

Those are special programs that this Governm ent brought into Government since it has been in office. Mr. Speaker, this is the problem with Question Period- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. I would like to remind the Honourable Rrst Minister that questions and answers should be posed through the Chair. ACCESS Program Continuation Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Oppositio n): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier. lt deals with both the changing face of Manitoba with imm igration and it deals with the issue of priorities that he has identified as the choices that have to be made in the budget.

The ACCESS program has been in a state of confusion over the last six months. We have had word that the program is going to be totally cut back. We have had the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Downey) appear before demonstrations and say there is tremen dous suppor t for the Government for those programs, and then we see a letter from the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) saying that this is written notice that the program must be term inated.

439 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA October 26, 19 90 My question to the Premier is: In light of his com mitmen t of $8 million to private sector training in this budget, will he guarantee that the successful programs for social workers, teachers in the inner city, nurses and doctors in the North and aboriginal people and new imm igrants under our ACCESS and BUNTEP programs, that the enrollment of those programs and the intake of those programs at the levels of prior intake will be protected by this Governmen t in terms of its comm itment to the people that need those programs the most? Hon.

Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, we have said and argued publicly the case for BUNTEP, for the ACCESS programs, for those kinds of huma n resource development programs within our education and training system that we believe are absolute ly critical and necessary for the future developm ent of our aboriginal peoples and many of our disadvantaged peoples and are a tremendous investm ent. * (1 035) We have backed up that advocacy with dollars-do llars not only to support levels that we have done in the past, but in fact to pick up from some of the offloading of federal cuts in those areas.

We have been working very, very hard. I have correspondence as recently as the last couple of weeks with the Honourable Jake Epp arguing that we need to have the federal comm itment for next year now. That letter regrettably had to be sent out for the same reason as our labour laws ask for people to give notice of layoffs. The fact of the matter is that they enter into agreeme nts for staff a year ahead. So if we did not send that letter, staff commitmen ts for next September would have already been made by the universities and the colleges and the training institutions.

Until we know from the federal Government the kind of level of support that we are going to get, we cannot com mit all of the funding for those programs. We can commit our share, but we cannot com mit the federal share. We are taking in people for programs that are two and three and four years in length, and we have to at le ast be prepared to carry through our commi tme nts to see those people through their training. With the federal Government indicating publicly tha t they are cut ting back on th eir com mitmen ts, Mr.

Speaker, we have to have some flexibility in the future staffing of those institutions to ensure that we do not get caught not only with our share and the increased proportion we put in, but the entire share that the federal Government is walking away from. Mr. Doer: The First Minister did not answer the question. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Downey) has blown the negotiations over the last two years. We are left with a huge hole of som e $280 mi lli on in terms of our ERD A agreements, many of them under the Northern Development Agreements.

This Minister told us in the House two years ago that he would get mo re than wh at the former Government got. Rememb er those echoes coming through this Cham ber. My question is very specific to the Prem ier. You are putting aside $8 million for big corporations for private sector training. If you cannot negotiate successfully with the federal Government, and your Minister does not seem to appear to be able to do that , will you ensure that the enrollmen t and intake levels are maintained as a higher priority than moving $8 million in this budget over to the big corporations?

Will you ensure that that intake is protected? Mr. Fllmon : Mr. Speaker, we have indicated in the past, and I invite the Leader of the Opposition to com pare, every province in this country has had cutba cks in federal-pr ovincial agreeme nts. The reductions by virtue of the removal of ERDAs and replacement with new agreements has been across the board, cutting every single province and its share of federal-pr ovincial spending, Mr. Speaker.

The federal Government argues that they have put in place now an umbrella called the Western Econo mic Developm ent Agreement, and that s producing mo re federal revenues transferred to Manitoba than all of the other agreements combi ned under the form er adm inistrati on. They provide figur es that argue tha t case. Mr. Speak er -(i nterjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Fllmon: Western Econom ic Development is a billion dollars. lt is a billion dollars, Mr. Speaker. That is the point. We are into a situation in which the federal Government, in our judgment, has been negligent

October 26, 1 990 LEGISLA TIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 440 and has been unfair. lt has been unfair to every single province in this country, because all of them have suffered major, major reductions in their federal-pr ovincial agreements. Mr. Doer : Mr. Speaker, that is not the question . My question is to the Premier. What is your priority, money to big corporations, the $8 million as in this budget or maintaining the ACCESS and BUNTEP programs in norther n Manitoba and southern Manitoba and in the inner city? If you continue to bungle your negotiations, what are your priorities for Manitobans?

Is it tax breaks for corporations or is it money to maintain the affirm ative action programs that are so necessary in the inner city and northern Manitoba? Mr. Fllmon : Mr. Speaker, my priority is training for the people who need it in this province. Regardless of wher e they live , regar dless of what the ir circums tances, the money is going to go into education and training for people who need it, preferably for training that leads to real em ployment opportu nities.

The most focussed and mo st targeted that we can possibly become is by having direct training for people on the job that leads to continuation and furthering of their econom ic opportunities. That to me ma kes econ omic sense, not ideology, not hidebound old ideas of who is on what side and who is on the other side, trying- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh I Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Point of Order Mr. Doer : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The First Minister is impugning motives.

If he reads the Coopers and Lybrand Report on training, he will find the Winnipeg Education Centre stacks up better than any other training model. He is imp ugning motives on ideology- •

(1040) Mr. Speaker: Order, please . The Ho nourable Memb er does not have a point of order. A dispute over the facts is not a point of order. Goods and Services Tax Correction Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance) : Mr. Speaker, I rise at this time to correct something that I put on the record yesterday. Is that acceptable? Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Minister of Finance. Mr. Manness : Mr. Speaker, in amongst all of the numbers I put on the record yesterday, one was in error.

That was dealing with the saving with respect to th e tax rel ief that we provided by this announcement in this budget with respect to taxing the reta il sales tax along side the fed er al Government proposed GST. The saving to those users of the telep hone system would be in the area of $2.5 million-$3 million. The mist ake I made as that the saving to our users in removing the present 11 percent Federal tax down to the seven would be $1 2 million. So I had made a mistake there. That was under the present Telecom munications Bill as it exists today. Mr. Speaker, I rise to make that correction.

Urban Native Strategy Government Commitment Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): Mr. Speaker, the comments made yesterday by the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey)-as we are well aware that northern Manitoba is made up mostly of aboriginal individuals. I was very insulted, being an aboriginal myself, by those comments. My question is to the First Minister. The Minister of Northern and Native Affairs prom ised this Government would deliver an urban Native strategy. Despite spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on friends and Tory cronies, we have no urban Native strategy.

To the First Minister, is this because the urban aboriginals do not vote right either? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we continue to be com mitted to developing a joint stra tegy to address and resolve many of the difficulties and problems that are faced by our aboriginal people in the City of Winnipeg and in our urban centres. We as a Government for the first time ever established a shelter for Native women, lkwe. The Mem ber I am sure should be well aware of it. Under the former NDP administration they got rhetoric, they got promis es, they got a lot of other things.

Under us they got a shelter, a real physical shelter-investment in people. That is what we have been doing. We have given support to many aboriginal and Native organizations . The Indigenous Women's Collective never got any support, not a nickel from the former administration . They are getting funding

441 LEGISLA TIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA October 26, 1990 from us, Mr. Speaker. We are choosing our priorities wisely. Where there are needs in the aboriginal com munity, within the scope of the funds that we have available, we are addressing them . Education Mr. George Hlckes (Point Doug las): Mr. Speaker, can the First Minister point to one concrete program or initiative in the education field for the urban Native population in the inner city? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr.

Speaker, if the Member would consult with his colleague from The Pas, who was a signatory to a new program , the Northern Bachelor of Nursing Program, that we developed, again -(i nterjection)- See now they are choosing who they are helping. They do not want to help the aboriginals if they are in the North, Mr. Speaker. The Mem ber for Point Douglas began his

preamble by talking about the fact that he was proud to be an aboriginal person in this legislatu re, that he was proud to talk about and represent aboriginal interests. I am telling him that among other things, I have already talked to him about two specifics in urban Winnipeg which he set aside, the lkwe house for Native women, the funding for the Indigenous Women's Collective. Now I am telling him about the Northern Bachelor of Nursing Program that was developed under this-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Opposition House leade r, on a point of order. Mr.

Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, it is quite clear that answers should pertain to the questions raised. The Mem ber for Point Douglas had asked about education programs affecting native people in Winnipeg. I realize the First Minister had some difficulty in answering the question, but he should recognize the rules and not try and misstate the question placed by the Memb er. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Member does not have a point of order. Mr.

Hlckes: Can the First Minister prom ise urban Native people in my constituency of Point Douglas and the inner city that education and trai ning programs will not be cut because of the attitude of the Minister responsible for Native Affairs? Mr. Fllmon : Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Downey) has demonstrated by his actions during the past two and a half years that he will do everything possible to support the interests , the concerns and the needs of the aboriginal people of this province.

He will continue to do that because he is com mitted to bettering the circumstan ces of the aboriginal people of this province, unlike the NDP who did nothing but give them talk. Goods and Services Tax Communication Billing Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne) : Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister of Finance for correcting the information he put on the record yesterday, although in doing so he has left another inaccuracy on the public record.

From his response he would seem to suggest that by removin g the federal com munications tax there is going to be a $1 0 mil lion saving on taxati on, and in fact the reapplication of the 7 percent tax across a broader base is going to result in an increased tax load even after the removal of the cascading. Can the Minister take this opportunity to correct that? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance) : Mr.

Speaker, if the Mem ber was listening, I said under the exi sti ng tax Bill, natural ly when the base expands in Janu ary, 1991 , the federal Government will take a larger share of tax under the total com munications billings that each and every one of us face. Retail Trade Predictions Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne) : So people's telephone bills will go up next year as a result of an increased tax load. I wonder if the Minister of Finance would also like an opportu nity to correct the information he put on the record about retail trade . Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance) : Mr.

Speaker, people's communication bill may go up as a result of the GST, but because of the action that we took in this budget it is going to go down $2.5 million-$3 million as to that amo unt of revenue which flows into the provincial coffers. let not the Memb er try to paint the picture that some how we as the provincial Government are going to be responsible for any increase in billings under telephone s.

October 26, 1 990 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 442 Child and Family Services Funding Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne) : We are just try ing to remove some of the fog in these pictures, Mr. Speaker. I gave the Minister an opportun ity to correct the record relative to retail trade in this province. He did not avail himself of that opportun ity. I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Fam ily Services. Would he like to correct what he put on the record about the 15 percent increases to Fam ily Services agencies so they can expand services in this province? Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, we will have an opportunity in the Estimates to look at the details of that. I would indicate to you that the increase to Family Services agencies has been 15 percent. *

(1050) Rock Ridge, Manitoba Community Hall Funding Mr. Joh n Pl ohma n (Dauphin) : Yes te rday's stat emen t by the Minister of Northern Affairs revealed a great deal about the Governmen t's criteria for funding projec ts and progr ams in Northern Affairs com munities.

I want to ask the Minister of Northern Affairs why he has not suppor ted the applica tion by the com munity of Rock Ridge for a com munity hall, which is so necessary in that new com mu nity where they have no place to meet in the area, no place for recreational activities, and this Minister is refusing to support the application that they are ma king. Is it also because these people in my constituency, in the com munity of Rock Ridge, do not know how to vote-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I first of al l want to make it absolutely clear that the budget that has been prepared for Northern Affairs has been done under the normal processing of any Government budgetary activities with the departmental staff who have worked for his Government, our Government bring forward priorities. We were able to move on a major request of the com munity of Rock Ridge to help the young children of that commu nity who never had a playground, who never had a com munity under that Minister or that Government. We gave them their community status.

We gave them a park for their children, and we gave them the equipment to play in that playground, something that Minister and that Member was never able to deliver. As far as the hall is concerned, Mr. Speaker, it is like every other com munity. They deal within a lim ited budget tha t is avai lable to all the com munities. lt is more important to make sure the essential ser vic es of wate r and sewer and playgrounds for children, I believe, and when the time and the resources are available, provide a hall for them, Mr. Speaker. Then it will be dealt with fairly and appropriately. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Speaker, that commu nity did not ask for com mu nity status until 1988. Now they are asking for improvements. More people want to move into the com munity in a subdivision, and this Minister will not approve a small amount of mo ney for jobs and brushing so that they can get on doing that work instead of having to rely on social assistance. Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister why he will not approve those few thousand dollars so they can provide some jobs this winter to prepare the site for the subdivision that is required in that area. Mr.

Downey: I again indicate it is the departmen t tha t makes those decisions with avai lable resources; that is correct. I guess the decision was made by the department and by the Governmen t to give his colleague from Ain Flon $136,000 from my departm ent and a hundred and som e thousand from the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) to clean up an environmental problem that was left by the Mem ber for Flin Aon (Mr. Storie), an order that he should have cleaned up when he was a Minister. That is what we are using the resources for, to clean up his continued messes. Community Status Mr.

John Plohman (Dauphin): The community of Rock Ridge is waiting for word from this Minister, and I ask this Minister why he will not grant them full comm unity status so that they can elect two councillors and a mayor for that com munity. He refuses to deal with that concern, and it has been two years since they were granted contact status. When will he give them full com munity status?

443 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA October 26, 19 90 Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Again, the Mem ber is not very clear as to what information he is putting on the record. If he wants to do a com parison of the com munity sta tuses and the com mun ities which were -(in terjection)- well, Mr. Speaker, there has to be adequate population. There has to be a proper procedure and timing to go through, as the Memb er knows. I am more than prepared to deal with the evolution of these comm unities as they provide and prove evidence that they are ready for that status.

That is a depar tm ental decision workin g with those comm unities. -(in terjection)- If the Mem bers want som ething differet as they operate it, they will not get it. The department will be fully involved in the dev elopmen t of those commun iti es, in the development of increased status. Air Ambulance Program Funding Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): I have a question for the Premier (Mr. Film on). There is clear evidence in the budget that Northerners are being singled out for cutbacks by this Government. My colleagues have spoken eloquently on that this mo rning. Health care is no exception.

In fact, the Air Ambul ance Program and the Northern Patient Transportation Program received a direct cut of alm ost 20 percent and represents the largest single cut in the health care budget. My question to the Premier is: Would he, in the interest of fairness and com m unity preservation for our North, reinstate adequate funding for the Air Ambulance and Northern Transportation Patient Program to ensure that health care services in the North are not jeopardized? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I guess the caution that I give to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer) to try a little honesty, I ought to have applied to others in his caucus. Some Honourable Memb ers: Oh, oh I Point of Order Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The Honourable Memb er, I am sure, is not suggesting that there is some dishonesty in this Cham ber. I would ask the Honourable Minister to withdraw that com ment. Mr. Orchard: Far be it for me to ever suggest that anybody on any side of the House would not deal with an issue honestly. My honourable friend, the Leader of the official Opposition (Mr. Doer) attempted yesterday- Mr. Speaker: Order, please .

I would ask the Honourable Minister just to withdraw that comm ent. Mr. Orchard : Cer tai nl y, I will withd raw tha t com ment, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Minister of Health. *** Mr. Orchard: My honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) yesterday attem pted to say that there was a reduction and a cutback in the air ambula nce service. There was no such cutback last year, nor will there be this year. There were mo re tri ps last year based on medical need and volume, and we funded every single one of them. That will continue this year.

Furtherm ore, when my honourable friend wants to talk about health care services to northern Manitoba, let us talk about the dialysis program that we put into Thom pson tha t the Memb er for Thom pson (Mr. Ashton) could not deliver while he was a backbencher in the NDP Government. Let us talk about the health office- Some Hon ourable Members: Oh, oh I Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Time for oral questions has expired. -(in terjection)- Order, please. ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEBATE Mr. Speaker: On the adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness), and the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs), in the amendment thereto as follows, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Flin A on (Mr. Storie) who has 11 minutes remaining. Mr. Jerry Storle (FIIn Flon) : Mr. Speaker, this -(in terjection)- apparently som eone would like to make a non- political statement. Mr. Speaker : Or der, please. I am so rry. -(in terjection)- Order, please; order, please.

October 26, 1 990 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 444 NON-POLITICAL STATEMENTS Mr. Speaker: Would the House grant leave to revert back so that the Honourable Member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs) would have an opportunity to make a non-p olitical statement, and then we could revert back to the Honourable Member for Flin Flon ? Agreed? Agreed. Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Oppositi on) : Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the Members of the House, because I think every Memb er of this House who knew the late Gordon Hall would want to extend to his fam ily today their deepest sym pathies.

The form er Manitoba Court of Appeal justice died yesterday after a long and protracted battle with cancer. He had retired from the judiciary some 18 months before. Justice Gordon Hall was well-known to people throughout this province, both in the agricultural com munity for work that he did in preparing reports in agriculture and also, of course, for his service as a judge and as a lawyer. He leaves a fa mily. He leaves many, ma ny friends, and he will I think be a loss to all of Manitoba because he enriched us by his presence by living among us. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Oppositi on) : Mr.

Speaker, I would ask leave for a non-political statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Memb er have leave? Leave. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I would like to add our words from our caucus to the fam ily of Gordon Hall on his passing yesterday. The Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) has so eloquently reflected upon the esteemed career of Justice Hall. We would just like to pass on our condolences and sym pathies to the fam ily and friends of Justice Hall . Hon. James McCrae (Mi nister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I rise to ask permission to make a non-p olitical statement. Mr.

Speaker: Does the Honourable Minister have leave? Leave. Mr. McCrae: I thank Honourable Members and join with the Honourable Opposition Leaders in paying respect to the mem ory of former Justice Gordon Hall and extending sympathy to the fam ily. I do so as one who has had the privilege in the past of working directly with Justice Hall in his courtroo m. I feel that a word should be said about the contribution Mr. Justice Hall has made to justice and other issues, other areas of conce rn in our province.

I join, on behalf of all of the Members on our side of the House, in the sentim ents expressed by the other Leaders today. Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I too would like leave to make a non-pol itical statement on the sam e- Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Minister have leave? Leave. Mr. Downey: I rise because I had the opportunit y to learn this summ er from Justice Hall that in a visit to the Oak Lake Fair that was his home of origin. I had an excellent time visiting with him there.

I want that to be put on the record, that he did come from rural Mani toba initially, and his roots are in rural Manitoba, and he did go back to them with his fam ily. I do want to, on behalf of the constituents which I represent, as well as myself, extend sincere sym pathy to them. Also, as the Minister of Agriculture, I had the opportunity, on som e of the reports that were done by Justice Hall, to work very closely with him . I certainly enjoyed the direction and the leadership which was given to me, the Government and to the people of this country.

So I want to make sure those thoughts are on the record for the fam ily. A (1 1 00) BUDGET DEBATE (Cont'

d) Mr. Speaker: Reverting back to Orders of the Day, the Honourable Memb er for Rin Flon, who has 11 minutes remaining. Mr. Jerry Storle (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, I took some time in Question Period yesterday, as did some of my colleagues, to talk about the budget and particularly the cuts that impacted Northern Affairs. Of course, today's questions and the com ments of the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr.

Downey) make those cuts more significant, particularly as they may reflect on the attitude of this Governmen t and the attitude of this Minister towards northern Manitoba and people who may have a different view of the province and the obligations of the people who lead the province. Mr. Speaker, I do take the Minister of Northern

445 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA October 26, 1 990 Affairs' com ments yesterday as a threat, not a thinly-ve iled threat but an open threat, to the people of northern Manitoba that they better vote according to the dictates of the Minister of Northern Affairs, rather than thei r own conscience. The Minister of Northern Affairs continues to suggest that he di� Point of Order Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Ho nour able Government House Leader, on a point of order. Hon. Clayton Mann ess (Government House Leader): Mr. Speak er, I know the Mem ber is debating the budget, and I know he has liberty to cover a wide cross

section of issues , but the Memb er is reflecting on a decision, not a decision that you have made, but an issue that has caused a lot of heat and a lot of discussion in Question Period. The Minister has fully explained his actions and has offered a full apology. I am wonder ing why the Mem ber oppo site continues to draw into his remarks veiled threats. That is a serious, serious allegation, and I think the Member, and the fact that he is using budget speech at this time, is imputing motives on a Mem ber and he cannot in any way get away with that type of action. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The Chair did not hear the remarks that the Hon ourable Governmen t House Leader has brought forward. I will take this opportunity to take this matter under advisement. I will peruse Hansard and I will return back to the House with a clarification. *** Mr. Storle: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I hope the Minister's interjection will not be deducted from my time. I will only add one further remark, and this is a serious remark. The Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr.

Downey) and I have known each other for a long time, and the Minister has never said, other than he was a partisan politician, and indeed he is, we are all partisan in this Cham ber, but there is a difference between partisan and jokingly saying to someone in northern Manitoba: Well, we will just have to see how the vote goes. Informal comments that are -(in terjection)- constantly, Mr. Speaker-and I know the people that the Minister of Northern Affairs is dealing with.

I have known them for 15 and 20 years, and they know that they are subtly being intim idated. lt may be a in a joking fashion and it may not even be the Minister's intention, but the fact is that is going on. I ra ised questions today, and I asked for the Minister of Northern Affairs' resignation from that portfolio because the people in my constituency have no confidence that their issues and their concerns will be dealt with fairly and honestly and on their mer its, and not on the politics of the region. I am going to leave it at that. lt is a serious com ment, and I want the First Minister (Mr. Filmo

n) to take those com ments seriously. ! will leave it there and we will see whether the First Minister, in this instance, has the intestinal fortitude to act the way I bel ieve , and ma ny on this side and in my constituency believe, he should. Mr. Speaker, the budget-1 have said on other occasions that this budget is very much like the throne speech. lt is very much like the elections campaign itself; it is very much like the Filmon team ; it is very mu ch like the Premier himself.

This budget has no direction, no direction whatsoever and no substance. lt is a budget that is going nowhere. lt does not deal with the genuine concerns of the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness). lt does not deal with the concerns that we have for the fact that working people are losing their jobs day by day by day. lt does not deal with the fact that our economic base is being eroded by the Free Trade Agreement, by the federal Government and by the inaction of this Government. lt does not deal with the real concerns that fam ilies have for the education of their children, certainly in regions of our province that are less fortunate than the City of Winnipeg. lt does not deal with a whole host of real problems that people are facing across this province, and every region of the province, and every town and city.

Mr. Speaker, the Government has shown not only no imagination, they have shown no willingness to create within the province and across this country, a determ ination to do som ething about the problems that we face. The Minister of Finance, in his former role as critic-Fi nance Critic-said on many occasions to the then NDP Governm ent, quit whining about federal Government cutbacks, quit attacking the federal Government because they are cutting back on health and education funding, quit attacking the Government because the equalization form ula has been reduced, quit attacking the Government for

October 26, 1 990 LEGISLA TIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 446 their policies. They are doing what they were elected to do, govern. Mr. Speaker, we said then and I say quite honestly to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), to the Minister of Highways and Trans portati on (Mr. Driedger), to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon), this is still a country. We are part of a country. We deserve national policies that are in the best interests of the country, not the corporate elite of this cou ntry. That is the problem .

Until we see som e determi nation on the part of the First Minister to not act like some diploma tic door mat, we are going to see policies initiated by the federal Government that impact people in Winnipeg, Brandon , Dauphin, Swan River, Flin Flon, and Sou th Indian Lake . Der egula tion of the com munications industry is only the latest exam ple, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the people in my com munity are facing telephone rate increases on basic telephone services of 66 percent. In other com mu nities, it is going to be higher than that.

We have gone from the principle of a Crown corporation providing a basic level of service at a basic cost to every mem ber of our society, to a situation where it is user pay. In this case the smaller com munity, the more remote the commu nity, the higher the price tag. A result of deregulation of our telecomm unications industry . Mr.

Speaker, we could talk about the impact of der egulation of the transpor tati on industry on communi ties like Flin Flon, and Thompson, and The Pas, other northern com mu nities, who have seen jet service disappear in those commu nities, have seen the price of air transportation mo re than double. Today, to get to Flin Flon or Thom pson costs $500 for a round trip. The citizens of Winnipeg can travel to Toronto for 20 percent of that almo st, return. Deregula tion is killin g our re gions.

This Government continues to sit on its hands. lt does not seem to believe that it has any role to play in formu lating national policy. I implore the front bench to take some initiative. Do not be door mats for federal policies just because they come from the Conservative Government in Ottawa, ju st because they are cronies of yours, just because you have known them . Their policies are wrong for the Province of Manitoba, and they are wrong for the country. Do somet hing about it.

The First Minister, today, was decrying the fact that we have lost funding for education programs because of the elimi nation of the Northern Development Agreement. We have lost money for mining, and forestry, and transportation , cultural industries. lt is not good enough to shrug and say we have lost it. We want som e initiative. We want some leadership on those important questions. * (1 11 0) We know that the Ministe r of Finance (Mr .

Manness) cannot be expected to carry the weight of all those provincial programs on his back and then carry the federal Government programs as well, but what we do expect is that the Minister of Finance and this Government will be forthright enough to deal aggressive ly with, not only the fede ral Government, but the other provincial Prem iers, the other First Ministers of this country. We need some leadership on important issues, education not the least of which. We are losing oppor tu nities for hundr eds and hundreds and hun dr eds of nor thern peop le, Mr.

Speaker-hundr eds and hundreds of northern peopl e, people who could be trai ned to be professionals, to be nurses and social workers and te acher s and go back and suppo rt the ir com mu nities and provide leadership and role models for those people in those com munities. If we lose these opportuniti es, Mr.

Speaker, we are giving up on a generation of people in northern Manitoba, aboriginal people, Metis people, people in our smaller comm unities who for the first time have come to believe that there may be a Mure for them in those communities, who can aspire finally to som ething greater than subsistence living. Mr. Speaker, I have talked about the Free Trade Agreement, probably the greatest single threat to the Province of Manitoba of the last generation, the greatest single threat, and we have seen no response from this Gove rnme nt.

Si nce this Government took office we have not seen one single analysis of the im pac t of free tra de, no compr ehensive review, no com prehensive study of the implications, the ram ifications of the Free Trade Agreement. Do we believe for a minute that there are no impl ications? Is it ju st ci rcu mstanc e , serendipity that our manufacturing industries are leaving the province? Can the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Ernst) stand in their place and tell me today that that manufacturing base is going to come back to the Province of Manitoba?

447 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA October 26, 19 90 I said when free trade started in 19 87, when we fi rst started the dis cussions, that the food processing industry was gone. We are not going to have one in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, the trade results, the trade statistics com paring 19 88 when we did not have free trade and 19 89 when we do have free trade support that. We have seen a 30 percent reduct ion, Mr.

Speaker, in primary industry, we have seen a 36 percent reduction in manufacturing trade, we have seen a 47 percent reduction in the retail trade and wholesale trade as a result of the Free Trade Agreement. We have to have our own strategy. Mr. Speaker, the budget of Industry, Trade and Tourism has declined. In real dollars it has declined much mo re than on paper. There is no sense from this Government that it is attempting to come to grips with the reality that we face as a province. The Minister of Rnance (Mr.

Manness) has not only failed in terms of coming to grips with the deficit of the province, he has failed on the other side to put mo ney to develop initiatives which are going to create the economic circumstances in the province which will contribute revenue, see our revenues start to grow again beyond what it is, double what it is, and we are not going to get that unless we take those initiatives. Mr. Speaker, this budget is a failure. lf this budget were a book-it would be slim pickings if it was a book-but if it was a book, I am not sure, quite honestly, whether it would be a com edy or a tragedy.

In either case it is not good enough. Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines) : I rise to speak in favour of the budget presented earlier by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness). This does not mean, Mr. Speaker, that I agree with every item that is in the budget, but we are a team, we have to ma ke concessions and we have to give and take. Before I speak on the budget, Mr. Speaker, I may be permitted to make a few observations. First of all , I congratulate you, Mr.

Speaker, on being re-elected to your position in this House , and I can say without fear of contradiction that you are, indeed, the best Speaker that I have ever worked under. Mr. Speaker, let me also congratulate Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Dacquay) elected to her posit ion. I would also lik e to congr atu late -(in terjection)- my ML A, he woke up. I would also like to congratulate two colleagues who have been appointed Ministers, the Minister of la bour (Mr. Praznik) and the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gillesham mer).

I would also like to congratulate those new Members on both sides of the House that have been elected. I would like to point out, however, that I feel a little lost in that the former Member for Burrows and the form er Mem ber for Radisson were not re-elec ted, and I have nothing against those good Members that were elected in their place; but their defeat relieves me of not being the oldest Memb er of this House.

The form er Member for Burrows and the former Memb er for Radisson were older tha n I am , and now I have the distinction of being the elder state sman of this House , and I wish that the Members across the way would treat me with the respect due the elders in this House. A little mo re respect. Mr. Speaker, before I go on, I would like to also mention a few things that happened recently, some of the com ments that have been made by the Mem bers of the Opposition. I was at the twentieth Assemb ly of Northern Communi ties yesterday toge ther with my colleagues, the Minis ter of Northern Affairs (Mr.

Downey), the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), the Minister of the Environmen t (Mr. Cumm ings), the Minis ter of Education (Mr. Derkach), and I must say that the best reception and the loudest reception was reserved for the Minister of Northern Affairs. I must say also that time and time again, the speakers at the assemb ly gave praise to the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) for the work that he is doing for them and had done for them and will continue to do for them. So, let them not say that the Minister of Northern Affairs is not doing the job that he was elected to do. (Mr.

Bob Rose, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) I have heard Members of the Opposition, Mr. Acting Speaker, talk about the GST, and the Member for Brandon East (Mr. leonard Evans) said that 90 percent of the people of Canada are opposed to the GST. Now I want to ask him : Where are the 1 0 percent? I do not know of anybody, I have never spoken with anybody that approves of a new tax. I do not like a new tax. I have no difficulty opposing a new tax, but Governments have to have money. I have no problem with the tax, but I do have a diffi cul ty with im posing a new tax befor e expenditures are under control.

That is where we differ, I think, from the federal Government. I do

October 26, 1 990 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 448 believe that our expenditures are under control , and the federal Governme nt's expenditures are not under control. Mr. Acting Speak er, I would like to ask the Memb er for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) where he gets his tickets to Toronto, because I have not been able to get a ticket in recent years, return to Toronto, for $1 00.00. So there is something either wrong with my travel agent or with his arithmetic. Mr. Acting Speaker, the fact that I do not drive a Government car should have nothing to do with this speech here today.

I do not drive a Government car because I do not have room in my garage for it. If I had my dr uthers, and I have said this to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) before, I would cap the interest that the province would pay in any one year at 8 percent of the total revenue. An Honourable Memb er: Why does the budget not bring it in? * (1 12 0) Mr. Neufeld : I have said already, Mr. Acting Speaker, I do not agree with everything that is in the budget; of course, I do not. If I agreed with everything in the budget, I could be a robot; I could be a compu ter. No, I do not agree.

I think I have the latitude to speak on the budget if I disagree with it. I have said I will disagree with some points, but on balance I do agree. I am a team player. I have input into the budget as a Member of the Treasury Bench. I have input into the budget as a Member of the Cabinet, and the fact that I do not win every one does not take away from the fact that in whole I support that budget. Mr. Acting Sp eaker, Governme nts mu st be accountable, and I do believe that accountability has to go down to the agencies that Governments appo int.

In the end, if the agencies are not accountable, Governm ent cannot be accountable. lt is my view that we mu st make our agencies more accountable-if the Page can come here and give me a cup that does not leak, then I would- An Honourable Memb er: My cup runneth over. Mr. Neufeld: Well, no, it just-th is is an NDP cup. There is a hole in this cup, Mr. Acting Speaker, and I cannot carry on with water running down the desk. Mr. Acting Speaker, Governments are no different from fa milies. Fam ilies mu st con trol th eir expen ditur es so tha t they do not go broke .

Governments must control their expenditures so that they do not go broke. The only difference is a couple of zeros. Like in fam ilies, all children are not equal; in Governments, all departments are not equal; all territories are not equal; all regions are not equal. We must try to help those who are less able to help thems elves. There is- An Honour able Memb er: Like the North. Mr. Neufeld: Yes, Mr. Acting Speaker, the North, when it is not able to help themselves, must be helped. Indeed, when Lynn Lake faced the closure of a mine, the Government did step in to help.

The Government stepped in to help with the budget for the town. The Government stepped in to help with the comm unities, the com muni ty clubs. The Government stepped in to help with relocation. The Government stepped in to help with legal services provided to the workers who needed the services at that time. Yes, when help is needed, we are there to help. Let it not be said that the Conservatives do not care. We have proven I think without any doubt that we care. We care mo re than most. I will not say we care more than the NDP because I do not know their views.

I only know the views that they speak of, but we have to think of the people who pay the taxes as well, we cannot only think of the people who require the assistance. ! have no difficulty helping those who need the help, help them over a hurdle, help them for education, help them in health, but I have a great deal of difficulty helping those who do not want to help them selves, who are there only to drink at the public trough. There was a sign on a marquee on Hende rson Highway some years ago that said-and I think I have it right-e verybody wants to eat at the Government table, but nobody wants to do the dishes.

Well, Mr. Acting Speaker, the dishes must be done. Jt is in that regard I think we have to put controls into place. I can give you any num ber of examples where effici encies have cost us mo ney-or lack of effi cie ncies have co st us mo ney. Goo d managem ent includes good efficiencies. If we do not have good management, we have cost overruns that need not be there ; we have abuses to the system that need not be there. Let us face it, we all know of horror stories of abuses, and I will mention a few. A lot has been said by the other side of the House about child care. Now I am in favour of helping those

449 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA October 26, 19 90 fam ilies that have to have two incomes, and so we will look after the children while the two parents are working, I am not in favour, Mr. Acting Speaker, of helping fam ilies with $1 00,000 a year incom e so they can support a lifestyle that working people some ti mes can not with one memb er working families. I do not support the caring of children for those people who want exotic holidays, two cars, three TV sets and cottages at the lake. That is not what Government is here for.

Government is here to help those people over hurdles that require two-worker fam ilies for a period of time that will help them over a hurdle, help them buy a house, help them in times of need, but not for luxury items. I have had a constituent alm ost in tears, because she said she has three children; her husband works very, very hard in order to support them. lt is their choice tha t she stay home with her chil dren, because in their case they think it is the preferred route.

She says she gets awfully upset when her husband's hard-earned tax dollars go to paying the child care for those who want the exotic holidays, want the cottage at the lake and want the two cars. That happens, even where the parent pays the full amount in a Gover nmen t day care. lt costs Government $14 each and every day for each and every child. That is not right. I think something must be done in order to all evia te tha t situa ti on. Som ething must be done so that mo nies can be spent in areas where the need is indeed there. I can talk about home care.

A $4 mil lio n experiment a few years ago is now a $51 million annual budget, and the complaint is that it is not high enough. Spend more. When I was Min is te r re sponsible for Seniors-and I use that word advisedly, because everything that happened in this House I was responsible for, for about one year until I was relieved of that responsibility. Mr. Acting Speaker, the NDP of the day told of horror stories of people who were being cut off home care, elderly women being cut off home care, elderly couples being cut off home care, and I asked for names.

Finally, I received five names, five names of people who had comp lained to the NDP Caucus that their hom e care had been cut. I went to see every one of those five people. One was older than I am , one. One said she had not really complained for herself, but there were other people in the block she lived in, who had complained to her. Another, when I asked whether they had children that might help out, said the children had their own problems. When I asked if the husband was reti red-h e was younger than I, healt hy looking-why he could not help, and she says that is not man's work.

I am sure that will sit well with some of the new Memb ers in this House. A third one I went to, the lady had a very neat apartm ent. She was 55 years old but said that she had an asthmatic condition. If she vacumme d the floor, she became short of breath and she had to sit down. She had all day to do this, so my sym pathies were not entirely with her. At 55, she was able to drive a car, she was able to go shopping, she was able to look after her grandchildren, but she was not able to vacumm the floor. I have no sympathy for people who do not want to do their own housework, expect Government to do it for them.

Only one person had a legitimate com plaint, and that compl aint was taken up with the Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard), who is in charge of that program. The leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) brought a lady into this building with TV cameras, with the newspaper reporte rs, for a full- fledged press conference. This lady had been cut off. She was over 90 years old. She had been cut off home care. Now on the surface, it would seem as though this was a legitimate case. Then some reporter made the mistake and said , well, can you afford to pay your own? The daughter said, yes, of course we can, but why should we?

Why should we, indeed, if we are capable? I have a mother who is 89 years old, and she qualifies both in terms of income and age, for home care, but she says I can pay my own. I do not need it. I think that is the pride that we should instill in all people in this province. We have lost, we have lost pride. We must regain that. We have lost the will to work. We must regain tha t. lt is an educa tional process. -(in terjection)- *

(1130) I did not hear that. Jobs, let us talk about jobs. Jobs are not created by Government. Government has never created a job in its life. Jobs are created by industry, by business. Government creates a climate. The only thing Government can create is climate, and if you do not create the right climate you will not get the jobs. -(in terjection)-

October 26,1 990 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 450 (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) I have seen more job creation and I have seen mo re job losses than most of you have probably collectively in my time. Jobs are created by industry who search out a climate where they wish to locate. If you do not give them the climate, there are many, many areas in this world, in North America, indeed, in Canada, where they can go in preference to Manitoba, if we do not have the same climate that they have. Indeed, that is the position of this Government and that is why we are reducing taxes.

That is why we want to create a labour climate that is conducive to the employmen t of more and mo re people, conducive to the creation of jobs. Those are permanent jobs. Let us talk about the Jobs Fund. My goodness, I ju st about forgot the Jobs Fund-jobs created. Before I was involved in Government, I used to see those pretty green signs all over, Jobs Fund, the numb er of jobs th at were cr eated . In my constituency, because the seat happened to be held by the Minister of Rnance, there were a lot of green signs.

I can name several instances where the jobs tha t were created wer e by the memb ers of organizations who did the work them selves in their spare time. This is job creation. Let us not forget job creation. The mem bers of the organization did the work, got paid for it, and the notice went out that so many jobs were created as a result of this program. There was always a condition attached. You must have a meeting of the memb ers-a coffee party-to which you must invite the Minister of Finance and the Premier of the province.

So the Jobs Fund, in my view-an d this goes back to before I was involved in Government at all, before I had any intention of running for office-was a way of campaigning with our funds. These are our funds. Government has no mo ney. Government collects taxes from you and I and spends it on som ething or somebody else. lt is our money that they are giving to those , in many instances, who do not want to work. Let us call a spade a spade. When I walk down Broadway at noon hour on a nice sum mer's day, I see any number of people and I see the same young people every day on the dole. They do not want to work.

I am supposed to support them. l ask you, Mr. Acting Speaker, why should I support them? An Honourable Memb er: How do you know they do not want to work? Mr. Neufeld: Well, if they are capable of working, why do they not work? I ask you if there is not any case of abuse in the system, in the welfare system ; I ask you, are there cases of abuse? If there are not, then I am mistaken but, Mr.

Acting Speaker, I have been around long enough to know that ther e are many, many instances where there is abuse and if we cut out the abuses we would have enough money to deliver all the programs that are wanted by the other side. Let us talk about housing. We have a proliferation of housing programs. We cannot cut out a program ; it is impossible to cut out a program because imm ediately the Opposition comes up and says: You have cut som ething and, unfortunately the press takes it from there and accuses the Government of cutting programs. Programs must be reviewed from time to time.

We had in our depar tm ent a CHEC Loan Program. We reviewed it, found it was not doing the job, we cut it out. I have been taken to task for having cut out our CHEC Loan Program but, Mr. Acting Speaker, if the program is not doing the job that it was intended to do, should it not be reviewed, should it not be cut, should not the mo ney be spent in areas where it may do mo re good? In housing I do not know how ma ny programs we have but there are several dozen programs in housing. How many do we need? We need one. If you need help come and see us; that is the only one we need. Why do we need so many programs?

Each program has a bureaucracy attached to it, each program has a budget, each program has a critic, each program has to be delivered and cannot be cut because- An Honourabl e Member: Government needs help. Mr. Neufeld : Gove rnmen t needs help, right, Government needs help. Mr. Acting Speaker, we can deliver a housing program to the needy at far less cost than we are now delivering if we were not taken to task every time we want to make a change. The Opposition and the press will pick on any reduction in budget and equate that to a reduction in programs.

A reduction in budget, a reduction in expendi tures or lapses is not necessa rily a reduction in programming. A lapse could be efficient because of good management, through gains in efficiency.

451 LEGISLA TIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA October 26, 19 90 Why can we not save money for the Government, or for the people of Manitoba, by being efficient? Is there something wrong with that? If we lapse any money-and the Minister of Health was taken to task again yesterday for having lapsed mo ney in the Home Care Program-is there something wrong with becom ing more efficient? I mean, tell me, am I walking down the wrong street? I do believe that efficiency is not somet hing we should sneer at; efficiency is som ething we should applaud. I will talk -(interject ion)- Ah, he talks about brains. Yes, Mr.

Acting Speaker, let me tell the Member for Thom pson (Mr. Ashton) that some years ago, I suffered a cardiac arrest. As you know, when that happens you need a jum p-start and, as you know, if it takes too long to give you that jum p-start, there is lack of oxygen to the brain. I have expert me dical opinion that I do not have brain damage. I want to ask the Memb er for Thompson whether he will subm it to such a test. -(i nterjection)- ! have to admit that I was correctly quoted, but it was having to sit with the Mem ber for Thompson, with the Memb er for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), my own MLA.

You have to have an excuse other than I want to run. Who is going to believe me that I want to run if I have to sit with Members from across the way? My own MLA who does not see me. My own MLA. I never see him from one election to another, and then he only comes to the door to see if he can get my vote. My goodness, is it not time that the MLAs in this House started to look after their own constituents? An Honourable Member: He has taken your vote for granted . • (1 14 0) Mr. Neufeld : He has taken my vote for granted, as the Mem ber for St. James (Mr . Edwards) says, and I want him never to do that again. (Mr.

Speaker, in the Chair) Mr. Speaker, let us talk about multiculturalism , and I can. My parents immi grated to Canada in 1 926. There is nothing wrong in preserving your own culture and preserving your own language, but I think there is som ething wrong for the public purse to pay for that . I think if you are interested in preser ving your cultur e, you should pay for it yourself. An Honourable Mem ber: Is this Govern men t policy? Mr. Neufeld : This is my policy, and I will defend that. I think I can because my parents immigrated to Canada in 19 26.

They did not speak a word of English, they had no job, they had debt. They came here to start a new life, to start over. They came here because of persecution in another country. They came here and they worked. The one thing they wanted to do is start a new life. They loved their country, they loved their God, they loved their fam ily and they worked. When it came to preserving language and preserving culture, they paid thems elves. They were prepared to, and if you want to preserve your culture, if you want it badly enough, you will pay your own.

Why should those of us who -(in terjection)- I have made the statement, and I will remind the Member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema ) that I have made that statement, and I have made it time and time again. I will tell him also that my constituents by and large believe that. They believe that, they should. The financing of cultural programs leads to splits in the country. Every group is out after their own funds. Everyone wants funds. Nobody is prepared to go out and pay themse lves.

They expec t Government-and Government is nobody else than the people, the people who pay the taxes-they expect the people that pay the taxes to pay for their cultural needs, for their language needs. I do not believe that is right and, I think, I am entitled to that opinion. Why should -(i nterjection) pardon? An Honour able Member: Are you against all multicultural funding? Mr. Neufeld: I am against multi cultural funding, yes. Yes, I am against multicultural funding. If you-1 am entitled to an opinion. Multicultural funding ends up as-the WASPS, if you like, are funding everybody else. They do not get funded.

That is what happens. On average the German com munity has received 15 cents per person in cultural funding. The French com munity has received somet hing like $1 5 per person. I think if you are going to fund them, fund them equally. I think that the aboriginal people have a case, but I do think the aboriginal people also have to come to the table and put all their dem ands on the table, put all their needs on the table, and not hedge, and when they sign an agreement, when they come to an agreement, let it be all, not time and time again

October 26, 1 990 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 452 come for more . I think that is maybe not totally in all cases -{in terjection)- Well, Mr. Speaker, do we want to have a province that is united? We have many different cultures in this province. Do we want them united or do we want them apart? I think we must have them united. There is no such thing as a num ber of states within a state. You cannot have that. As soon as you start your funding, you are going to have series of states ; that is a fact whether you agree with it or not.

I think that Government -(i nterjection)- No, I do not agree with the size of the deficit. I would like to see the size of the deficit reduced, and so would the Minister of Rna nce {Mr. Manness). How can you agree that an additional $283 million of debt can be good for the province? We also know that in times like this, in difficult times, we have to bring in programs and when we do not have enough funds we have to borrow. lt was always that way. In the seven good years you put it away; in the seven bad years you bring it back. That is what the good book says and, Mr. Speaker, there is nothing wrong with that.

We have, unfortunately, had seven good years in which monies were borrowed instead of paid back. Now, we have to borrow in difficult times and that is not the way things should work. We should be in a position to borrow now and not have to borrow on top of the borrowings of the past six years, or the six years prior to our taking office. The only thing we can hear from that side of the House is tax ; tax the corporations more ; tax the rich more. Now, how much can you tax? If you tax the rich 1 00 percent, you would not gain an awful lot of money in this province. I hear the Leader of the Opposition {Mr.

Doer) time and time again saying, the corporations have paid less and the individuals have paid more in tax. Well, that tells me only one thing in the knowledge, Mr. Speaker, that there have been no tax increases in Manitoba, corporate tax increases. There has indeed been an individual tax decrease. That tells me the earnings in corporations are down, and the earnings of individuals are up. That is the only reason we can have increased taxes. An Honourable Memb er: The logic escapes him. Mr. Neufeld : Well, the logic is, Mr.

Speaker, that if in Manitoba the corporate taxes are up, or down rather, and the individual taxes are up, that means that the corpor ate incom es are down and the individual incomes are up. lt is the only way of- there has not been a change in tax rates, so it must be on the income side of the equation. I think they are going back to job creation. We must bring in a program , Mr. Speaker, that is going to create a climate for the industry to want to come to Manitoba. We ca nnot buy them to come to Manitoba. We cannot com pete with the Albertas, we cannot compete with the Ontarios in money.

We cannot compete with the American states in money. We have to have a climate that is going to bring them here. We have the natural resources. We have the power. We have the labour force. We have to have the business climate. At this point in time, I suggest to you, we do not have a sufficient business climate, a good enough business climate to attract enough people. We must change that and are in the process of changing that, and will change it before our term of office is up. Mr. Speaker, there are many difficulties facing this Governme nt. Very few of those difficulties can be overcome by legislation.

Education is what we need. We need education, not in terms of book learning, but education in people's minds. We have to change people's mind-set. We cannot carry on with the division between the aboriginal people and the rest of society. We must bring them together. They must come into the mainstream. They must come in and be part of the communi ty. We have one Manitoba. We have one Canada. We cannot have two. Mr. Speaker, difficulties have been expressed frequently in this House by the Member for St. Johns {Ms. Wasylycia-Leis). The earnings of women are not that of men.

That may well be so, but legislation will not change that. Education will change that. Anything you cannot do by education , you will never do by legislation. You cannot change people's -{i nterjection)- Karl Marx said that in later years though. I think it is important. I am the father of two daughters, and I think it is important for them that they have the same opportunities that they would have if they were my sons. I do believe that one of them at least has learned that-and she told me the other day-th ere are many inequities still but not at her level, not in the professional world.

In the professional world, she is getting paid more than most male peers of hers, substantially more. * {1 15 0) Statistics are for losers, or as we used to say in the accounting business, figures do not lie, but liars

453 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA October 26, 1990 figure. I am in agreement with the Memb er for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis ). I am in agreement that there are inequities, but I cannot join her in her thinking that we can elimi nate those inequities through legislation. That is through education. I want to speak very briefly on pay equity. Pay equity and equal pay for equal work are two different things. I want to talk about personal care homes, personal care homes that the former Government funded, in some instances 20 percent less for wages in some care homes than for others. What was their sin?

What was their sin? Their sin was they were not union shops. So the non-union shops were funded 20 percent less than the union shops in spite of the fact, Mr. Speaker, they paid union wages. Now you tell me about pay equity. You tell me about pay equity. That is hypocritical. I cannot believe they will come up and stand in this House and demand pay equity when they did things like that. An Honoura ble Member: You signed in Hydro. Mr. Neufeld: Whatever has been signed in Hydro, has been signed in Hydro. An Honourable Member : You do not believe in pay equity? Mr. Neufeld:.

I do not believe that you can go into a business and say this job is worth as much as this job. An Honour able Member: Why did you open the legislation? Mr. Neufeld: I was not here when the legislation was brought in. An Honour able Member: Would you have voted against it? Mr. Neufeld: That is somet hing we do not know. That is a hypothetical question, Mr. Speaker, and I do not think that I have to answer that. I will tell you about pay equity. Pay equity, in some instances-Hydro created a 23 percent increase for people who had their contracts negotiated by their union. Is that fai rness?

I ask you about fairness. There is a case in Hydro where a young woman wanted to upgrade herself to a technician. She spent many years in ni ght school , received her diploma, and found out that the young woman who took her job received within a dollar a week of what she was getting. That is pay equity. That is pay equity. Fairness is not where clerical positions in Hydro are paid as much as linemen. Clerical positions are those where there is no experience, no educational requiremen ts. The line men have to have three years of trai ning before they can become a journeyman linema n.

Journeyman linemen have to go out in blizzards, they have to go out in storms and fix lines. That is a dangerous position. That is not considered pay equity. I will tell you how they considered pay equity, and how they brought the clerical position into the same level as linemen. They said, some body came in and said, how many times do you have to come to the counter? Now each trip to the counter -(in terjection) that is true . Each trip to the counter is a stress situation, and through these stress situations, their position was upgraded to that where it was almost equal to that of a lineman.

Now that creates, at best, mo rale difficulties in any firm . An Honour able Member: Time is up. Mr. Neufeld: Mr. Speaker, I will say only one more thing. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Point of Order Mr. Speaker : Order, please. The Ho nourable Member for Flin Ron , on a point of order. Mr. Jerry Storle (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, the Member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld) was, as put colloquially, in full flight. We were finding his remarks very interesting, and we are prepared to grant leave for the Minister to continue his speech if he wishes. Mr.

Speaker: Order, please. The Honour able Memb er does not have a point of order. The Honourable Minister has 30 seconds remaining. *** Mr. Neufeld: I would be happy to help the Mem bers out on the other side, but I do have a rather important outside engagement. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, it is going to be difficult, indeed, to follow the eloquence of the Mem ber who has just spoken ahead of me. I must apologize to my friends in the Opposition Party.

I do not believe I will be quite as scintillating as the prior speaker, but I do hope that they will enjoy my com ments. -(i nterjection)- That is correct. The Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) says, I never am. That is true. Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise and speak today on the budget put forward by the

October 26, 1 990 LEG ISLA TIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 454 Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) just a couple of days ago. I am , along with my colleagues, pleased to support the amendment put forward by our Party, which I believe accurately indicates some of the major, certainly not all, but certainly the major flaws within this Budget Address by the Ministe r of Finance.

Let me start by, I believe, exploring and hopefully exploding the myth which is perpetrated by this Government and their federal counterparts that they are fiscally responsible, that they are people who somehow have a handle on the deficit situation, really know how to handle mo ney, and they detest incurring future deficit s because in their own words-and I want to quote from the eloquence of the Speech from the Throne, I think they put it very well: The Government recognizes-this is on page 4 of the Speech from the Throne-the deficits merely represent de layed taxes.

Already we must spend over $500 million a year just to cover the interest on previous deficits. That is an accurate statement, I believe. Deficits represent future taxes. They are a mortgage on the future, which our children and our children's children will have to pay. Let no t this Go ve rnment or their fed er al cou nterpar ts or Conse rvati ves, gener ally, worldwide say that they somehow have reduced deficits, that they are responsible fiscal ma nagers. Mr. Speaker, anything but. By 19 92, when Mr.

Mulroney comes up for re-e lection, three-q uarters, fully three-quarters, of the federal debt will have been caused under his administration. We hear long and hard com ments about the deficit growth under the Trudeau Government, but three-quarters of the national debt will be attributable to Mr. Mulroney's regime when he is finished in 19 92. Now we hear this Government saying that they are fiscally responsible, that they have done us a good turn in these last three years by being in Government. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I believe-a nd I do stand to be corrected-! looked, perhaps not as thoroughly as I could have, but I looked and the last balanced budget that I could see was 19 75. lt cer tainly has no t occu rred since the early -(int erjection)- The Memb er for Concor dia, the Leader of the Opposition, (Mr. Doer) says balanced budget in '88-89. Now truly we could have balanced the budget; in fact, we had a surplus , but because of the concocting of the Fiscal Stabilization Fund we had a deficit. Why? So the graph would look better, plain and simple, the graph would look better.

We are reducing the deficit and we sure know now why we did not get this budget pre the election we have just gone through. We certainly know well and clear that the strategy which was denied by the Government, but was articulated by both of the Opposition Parties, that this was a budget which would not sit well with the people of Manitoba. We know that those accusations were true today, Mr. Speaker. We see a deficit, in real term s, of $383 million in this fiscal year.

That represents future interest payments for as long as anybody can predict because we do not see any sign of balancing a budget, future inte res t pa yme nts in the neighbourhood of $38 million to $40 million. That is indefinitely as far as anyone in this province could reasonably predict. We have no indication that a balanced budget is anywhere in sight. Now, Mr. Speaker, I only make those points to illustrate to Members that the Government can lay no claim to fiscal responsibility in this province. They go out and tell people that they know how to handle their mo ney.

They go out and tell people these deficits are terrible, and then they come in and they create $383 milli on deficits which they reduce fictitiously by a $1 00 million payment from the Fiscal Stabilization Fund. lt was, plain and simple, sleight of hand back when that fund was created, and it is sleight of hand today. * (1 200) Mr. Speaker, 1 want to go on to talk about the budget in some detail in the departments which I represent our Party as the critic.

Firstly, let me turn to the Department of the Environment, and this departm ent probably of all departme nts that I have a direct interest in as a critic does offer some very interesting indications of where this Government is going and how it really feels about the environment and that is illustrated through this departm ent.

I do not say that money is everything, I do not say that if you threw money at the environment you would solve the problems, the environmental problems in this province, 1 do not say that, but what I do say is that the spending priorities of this Government can reasonably and accurately be assessed by what they have done in this department, and in the Es ti m ates process we will look for some explanations in greater detail for these concerns.

455 LEGISLA TIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA October 26, 19 90 (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) Let me start by indicating that out of the 21 departments of Government, the Department of the Environm ent finishes third from the bottom , out of 21 they finish 19 th, in terms of spending. Total budget is $1 3 million; the only two departmen ts which have less of a com mi tm ent from this Government, in real terms, are Fitness and Sport, which has a budget of under a million dollars, and Corpor ate and Consumer Affairs, which has a budget of ro ughly $9 million.

So that is a starti ng point about this Government's com mitment to the Department of the Environment. Now, within the budget document itself, we see that the increase for this year is some $7 42,000.00. Madam Deputy Speaker, that increase is not only accou nted for, but mo re than that increase is accounted for by an $800 ,000 paymen t to the International Ins titute for Sustainable Development. That institute is obviously a worthy cause for this province. That institute we were told was going to be paid for by the federal Governmen t. I gather it is not.

We do not know, as yet, the full extent of the federal comm itment to this program. We hope that it reaches the initial press release figures and the hopes driven up by num erous press conferences, both involving this Governm ent and this Premier, and the Government in Ottawa.

I personally have very little doubt that it is going to fall far short of that at the federal level, and I wonder if the com m itment at this stage, while welcome, does not represent an acknowledgment that the federal Government is retrenching its position on the environ me ntal centre in this province, and is pulling back from an international com mitmen t through this centre in Winnipeg to the environment and the environmental process. In any event, my friend, the Member for Radisson (Ms.

Cerilli), indicated at least, or was quoted as indicating, that it very much should not be here in this budget document under the Department of Environment. I do not agree with that. I think that it is an appropriate expenditure and it is appropriately listed within this departm ent. That does not take away from the fact that once you take out that grant to the institute you have a Department of Environment which has suffered a loss of some $58,000 in revenues in a com mitmen t from this Government.

Not only has the 4.5 to 5 percent inflation rate, which is attributable to salaries and other expenditures in this departme n1-not only is that not accounted for, but you have a further incursion into this department of some $58,000.00 . This departm ent in a very real sense has been slashed. Madam Deputy Speaker, going further under the headings of the Clean Environment Comm ission and the Manitoba Environmental Council, both of them represent increase s, but very marginal increases.

I look at the budget for the Clean Environm ent Comm ission, and I see that they in all likelihood have received one further staff person, which accounts for the increase of some $37,000 in that appropriation. if we know anything in the environmental area in this country, we know that the work of the public arm of the Governmen t, the arm's length bodies, which go out and do the environm ental assessments, have a future of enormous growth. Environme ntal Im pact Assessments are being calle d for on the major projects and they are lengthy indeed, but they are also being called for on even the smaller projects.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we know that even in this province we are seeing increased desire and demands for the involvement of bodies like the Clean Environment Commis sion and the Manitoba Environme ntal Council. Whether or not they are listened to is another matter, and a matter in which this Government has given us a clear indication they are not particularly willing to do, with specific respect most recently to the Oak Ham mock Marsh decision. These bodies have rece ived mar ginal, very marginal increases, and I would suggest that in the com ing year that is a grave error on the part of this Government.

We very much need to open up the environmental assessment process. This Government has made comm itm ents in numer ous, very nice looking brochures, and in numerous press conferences and press releases about opening up the process and being environm entally conscious and doing this, that and the other thing, but when push comes to shove we see an absolute lack of credibility on environmental issues. We see an absolute denial of everything that they have stated, which is that the public should be involved and the public should be welcome.

That takes the appropriate bodies sitting there listening to them and in some cases granting intervenor funding. That is not obviously in the works from this Government.

October 26, 1 990 LEG ISL ATI VE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 456 Madam Deputy Sp eaker, moving on to the Hazardous Waste Corpor ation, which shows a budget decrease of some $500,000, I believe 20 percent, I initially saw that and was quite disturbed, because, of course, that corporation as well is slated and of necessit y is going to have increased workload in this com ing year. They have many projects which are going to require an enorm ous amount of public consultation and research and analysis. To see a decrease of that extent in the budget is a grave concern.

Now I have since been advised-and I took the time to investiga te th at de crea se- tha t the representatives of the corporation have indeed come up with some explanations. They say that monies come from some other source. At this point, I would not want to indicate or to publicly admonish the Government for that cut if that cut is being made up in some other way. I do not know if it is. The indication is com ing from the corporation that it is. We will wait until the Estimates process to hear that explanation.

I can tell you if that explanation is not satisfactory with respect to the ongoing and the increasing work of that corpor ati on, this Government will be held to account by many of the com mu nities in this province which are facing hazardous waste probl ems. Of cour se, those problems are increasing both on a federal level, specifically with respect to nuclear waste, and on a provincial level with respect to other hazardous waste products. Madam Deputy Speaker, let me take a few minutes and reflect on the Rafferty- Aiameda project and what we have been through in this province.

I will ask for some latitude from Honourable Member s to refer to that in this address. While it is certainly not directly tied to an appropriation in the budget, I think it does fit in with my concerns about the environmental comm itment of this Government. Manitobans and Canadians have now witnessed the virtual com pletion of the Rafferty dam. That is despite two federal court of Canada orders in the last 18 mo nths. That is indeed a depressing spectacle for those in this country who want our laws to be upheld, and mor e than that, want the environment to be protected.

I think Canadians can quite correctly ask what has happened, that despite two federal court orders- the highest court in the land aside from the Supreme Court of Canada-but the federal court of Canada despite that, this dam is going to be compl eted illegally, not by private enterprise but by a Government of this country, the Government of Saskatchewan. * (1 21 0) The explanation for that in view of the fact that two out of the three Governm ents involved have on various occasions expressed a large desire to see this overall project comple ted and the th ird Government, that is the Manitoba Government, has gone back and forth and back and forth on whether or not they support this project.

They started July 27, 19 88. The then Minister of the Environment, now Minister of Workplace, Health and Safety and the Worke rs Com pensation Board (Mr . Conner y), indicated discussions were going on between the Government of the United States and the federal authorities. He was correct. The Governmen t of Saskatchewan was also involved in those discussions. Madam Deputy Speaker, the qu estion is, wher e was the Government of Manitoba in those discussions? We have the United States negotiating on behalf of North Dakota.

We have the Saskatchewan Water Corpor ati on and a Minis te r of the Cr own in Sas katc hewan nego tiating on behalf of the Government of Saskatchewan. The absence of the Province of Manitoba in those discussions is glaring and calls out for an explanation, because those decisions back the n are directly related to the . dilemma that we face now in Manitoba, that dilemma being that a dam which can affect and will affect our water quality and quantity is two or three days from comp letion. lt will be operational by the spring, according to Prem ier Devine, and, frankly, I believe him. He would know.

He says he is going to be able to finish that dam , and he will. Where has Manitoba been? The agreement back in August of '89 between Saskatchewan and the Government of Canada ma de virtually no men tion of the Province of Manitoba, despite the fact that we are the ones downstream. North Dakota is downstream , and they were included. Man itoba is the ult ima te recipient. We are downstream , and we were not included ever. That was by design of this Government, Madam Deputy Speaker. That was benign neglect.

That was a decision to stay out of this because the decision had been made that it was good for Manitoba, and for whatever reason in 1 988, this Government chose to play ball with their federal counterparts and cozy up

457 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA October 26, 1990 to the Government of Saskatchewan and be a

part implicitly, if not explicitly, of the deals that were cut. Two mo nths late r, in October of 19 89, the Go ve rnmen t of the Un ited Sta tes and the Government of Canada signed a deal. That deal is an international document which the Government of Manitoba and the Government of Saskatchewan could not have been a party to because international documents are not within their jurisdiction.

However, tha t do cum ent very clearly ar ti cu lates the protections for the Province of Saskatchewan and the respo ns ibili ties of the Go ve rnmen t of Saskatchewan to produce studies and information on the effects of the project on the wildlife, on the water quality, on the rare plants in that area. Yet Manitoba is mentioned, I believe, once in that entire agreement, and it is obviously not a party to the discussions which led up to that agreement. The State of North Dakota had very good representation.

They had representation from their federal Government. lt is clear that they are being protected time and time again as you read through that agreement, all 14 pages of it. The Province of Saskatchewan was also being protected, and it was also well served. Why? Because first and foremost, the com mitmen t in that agreement is to com plete the dam. That is October of 19 89. That is right between those two federal court orders that said the dam should not go ahead for environme ntal reasons.

Our federal Government, with the explicit participation of the Governm ent of Saskatchewan and the implicit neglect of the Province of Manitoba, signed the deal com mitting to build the Rafferty and the Alameda dams and the boundary diversion. Madam Deputy Speaker, that is how we get to today. That is how we get to the Rafferty dam being just days from completion and this Government saying, as recently as two weeks ago, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of this province standing up and saying, this is not our problem. This is a federal problem. lt is their jurisdiction. They should take care of it. That was two weeks ago.

Now we are two days away from the Rafferty dam being com pleted and they cannot tell us that th is has not been their wish. As early as July of 19 88 we had indications from the then Minister of the Environment on record in response to questions from our Environment Critic of the day saying, we think this is good. We have made the decision. This is good for Manitoba. Let us go ahead full steam. Do not worry about those environmen tal assessments. They just take up time, take up money, get in the way. If we have to do it, we will do it real quick.

We will do it while we are building the dams, and we will not worry about the result. No wonder the panel memb ers quit. They quit because their integrity and their credibility were on the line. How can you be studying the environmental impact of a project which is going ahead, not eight hours a day, not 16 hours a day, 24 hours a day? They are building the dam while you decide whether or not it is good for the natural and the human environmen t.

Now we see even as late as yesterday, Madam Deputy Speaker, another exampl�ot local but in Quebeo-oft he federal Government being unwilling to take a real stand and defend the Environment Act. The federal Environment Act is the only instrument which has been effective in bringing home the desire of Canadians to protect their environment, bringing that home to the Governments of the Day.

The feder al Environmen t Act has stood up beyond our wildest expectations. lt has been the instrument that has shut down the Oldman River, that has atte mp ted to shu t down the Ra ffe rty-Aiameda pro je ct. lt has been the ins tru men t of def endin g the public right to participate, com ment and have their voices heard on major environmental projects.

Now we see, yesterday, the Province of Quebec wants to enter into a sim ilar mega project to divert rivers in that province, and we see the provincial Minister of the Environment in Quebec standing up and sa ying, let us have a com prehe nsive environmental assessment. You know, to his credit, he made those com ments before he had Cabinet appr oval . When he went into the Cabi net in Quebeo-a nd we saw this on TV last night-he came out with his tail between his legs, very humili ated, because that Government shot him down and said, "No, we won't; no, we won't.

We are going to divide this in two," just like the Government of Saskatchewan did with Repap, "we are going to divide this in two." The Government of Quebec said: We are going to go ahead and we are going to build the roads. We are going to build the airport strips, we are going to build eve ryth ing , all of the accoutre me nts , everything except the dam. We will do the dam later. -(i nterjection)- The Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) says, those are Liberals. He is correct, those are Liberals.

October 26,1 990 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 458 I am going to get to some com ments made by Mr. Blaikie about the New Democrats in this province -(i nterjection)- Oh, he says he is retired. Maybe the Memb er for Concordia will illustrate to me, when I get to that, what portions he is retracting. I would be interested to hear that. An Honourab le Member: He had the date wrong. Mr. Edwards: He had one date wrong. Okay, we will find that date. In the half a page, we w

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-1-12
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Volume / chapter	35th 1st hansardpdf 12.pdf
Language	en
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