ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 14 A - 2:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 3 MAY, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Sieve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Ru .. ell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, Jamea E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EYANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOS TYRA,Hon. Eugene KOYNA TS,Abe LECUYER, Hon. G6rard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilaon PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER,Hon.�c SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKI� Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. Jamea Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimll Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Bonif ace Aiel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concord la Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Rus sell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Os borne River Heights Flin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP INO NDP NDP NDP NDP INO NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thuraday, 3 May, 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. D. MALINOWSKI: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the First Report of the Commi ttee on Economic Development. MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: Your Commi ttee met on Thursday , May 3, 1984 and appointed Mr. Santos as Chairman.

Your committee has examined the Annual Reports of Channel Area Loggers Ltd., Moose Lake Loggers Ltd., and the Communi ties Eco nomic Development Fund. Mr. Bill Bennett, President and Chairman of the Board, Mr. G.P. Trithart, Secretary-Treasurer and Mr. G. Kemp, General Manager of Channel Area Loggers Ltd., provided such information as was required by Members of the Committee with respect to the Company. Information with respect to all matters pertaining to the operations of Moose Lake Loggers Ltd. was provided by Mr. C. Jo nes, President and Chairman of the Board, Mr. R.J. Kivisto, General Mana ger and Mr. G.P.

Trithart, Secretary-Treasurer. Mrs. Bernice O'Con nor, Chairman of the Board Mr Hugh Jones, General Manager and Mr. Alec Musg;ove: Assistant General Manager and Treasurer provided such information as was required by Mem bers of the Commi ttee with respect to the Communities Economic Development Fund. The fullest opportunity was accorded to all Members of the Committee to seek any information desired. The Annual Reports of Channel Area Loggers Ltd., Moose Lake Loggers Ltd. and the Communities Economic Development Fund were adopted for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1983. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St.

Johns. MR. D. MALINOWSKI: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honoura ble Member for River East, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to annou nce that the interdepartmental review committee 393 investigating Western Equine Encephalitis with representation from my department, the Departments of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health, Government Services and Agriculture has now provided advice to Cabinet.

Today I am proceeding to act on the recommendations of this committee which call for a revised approach to surveillance, data

Interpretation and decision-making in dealing with Western Equine Encephalitis in the province. Also included In this approach will be provision for public information programs. I would also like to ind icate that my colleague the Honourable Min ister of the Environment will be outlining, in a few moments, some of the proactlve methods to be implemented as part of this approach. Under the re-designed system, effective May 15, 1984, the functions of surveillance, data

interpretation and decision-making will each be separate and clearly designated activities: 1. The Sur veillance Function. The Manitoba Arbovirus Surveillance Com mittee will be di sestablished and replaced by indi vidual specialists, such as, an entomologist, a veterinarian, a virologist, and a meteorologist, who will closely monitor their respective areas and report directly to a senior official in the Manitoba Departmant of Health. These specialists will operate under standarized methods of data collection and will be able to address all of their efforts to surveillance with no responsibility for

Interpretation or decision­ making functions. 2. Data

Interpretation. The

interpretation of surveillance data will be the responsibility of a senior official of the Manitoba Department of Health whose decisions regarding risk to public health will be based on established factor levels. These factors will include weather conditions reported levels of disease-carrying Culex tarsali� mosquitoes, viral activity in sentinel chicken flocks, viral isolations in mosquito pools as well as human and horse case monitoring. 3. Decision Making.

The senior official of the Department of Health will report to a Committee of Deputy Mi nisters which includes representation from the Departments of Health Environment, Workplace Safety and Health: Government Services, and Agriculture. This committee will be responsible for advising a Cabinet subcomm ittee of their Min isters regarding the potential need to declare a health emergency as well as control measures. 4. Public Information. The importance of a well­ designed public information program was clearly demonstrated dur ing the W.E.E. health emergency period in the summer of 1983.

This year $50,000 will be designated for the purpose of public information to promote the need for personal protection in avoid ing exposure to disease-carrying mosquitoes.

Thursd•� 3 M8� 1184 In conclusion, I would like to acknowledge the dedication and tireless efforts of the Manitoba Arbovirus Surveillance Committee for pioneering and maintaining an early warning system to detect risk conditions concerning Western Equine Encephalitis in the province. This committee now serves as a basis for the development of this re-designed surveillance system. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We on this side of the House thank the Minister for the Information which he has tabled. it appears as though the government is changing the lines of authority and the structure • and the respo nsibiliti es in reporting relationships of the various people who were formerly involved in the Arbovirus Surveillance Committee, but that the process In dealing with potential outbreaks of Western Equine Encephalitis and the manner in which they are responded to, perhaps isn't going to change In the matter of dealing with mosquitoes and outbreaks in this province.

So we look forward to following through with the Minister at his Estimates, In a discussion of just what improvements this will bring to the process, and whether or not we have new and better ways of combatting outbreaks of Western Equine Encephalitis, by virtue of the mosquitoes that are prevalent In Manitoba most years, and we will look forward to additional information on this matter. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Min ister of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As my colleague has just men tioned , the province is undertaking a revised approach to public information, surveillance, data

interpretation and decision-making as it applies to Western Equine Encephalitis in Manitoba. In keeping with this revised approach, I would like to annou nce that my department will be assisting Manitoba municipalities in mosquito mapping and larviciding programs this summer. A $200,000 fund has been established for the 16- week program, which is scheduled to begin on May 14. Manitoba reeves and mayors have been contacted about the program and there has been considerable interest so far. In fact, I have been told that over 30 communities have already registered.

This program is intended as an in centive to municipa lities to establish exten s1ve, long-term larviciding programs. lt will provide the Information necessary to establish these programs. In closing, 1 would just like to add that establishment of larviciding programs is in line with recommen dations of the 1982 Clean Environment Commission report on mosquito control programs. The report emphasized larviciding programs as an effective method of mosquito control and recommended them as a precondition to adulticldlng programs in residential areas.

As a government, we wholeheartedly support this recomm enda tion and we want to encourage implementation of effective larviciding programs. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would also like to thank the Minister of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health for his statement to the House, for carrying on a program that has been in existence for quite some time, as larviciding has been done for many years and by many other previous governments.

I'm happy that the government is carrying on in a program that has been quite successful in the past and I thank the Honourable Minister for his statement, even though it comes a little late. 394 MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gal lery. We have 16 students of Grade 12 standing from the River East Collegiate under the dir ection of Mrs. Redekop. The school Is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for River East.

There are 75 students of Grade 9 standing from the Minnetonka School under the direction of Mr. Koskle. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Niakwa. There are 23 students of Grade 5 standing from the Landmark School under the direction of Mr. Penner and Miss Vogt. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS McKenzie Seeds MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister responsible for McKenzie Seeds. The profit and loss analysis on Page 3 of the financial statements that were released last week by the Minister shows an annual loss for this past year's operations of $1,262,529.00. In addition, there's a special notation, Note 2 on that page, which shows an adjustment for a prior period of a loss of $1,566,389.00. To what is that adjustment attributed? HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, the officials of the corporation will be in attendance at committee next Tuesday morning. Certainly I wouldn't want to in any limit their questions related to policy during question period, but to ask the Minister detailed questions regard ing the financial statements and the notes

Thuraday, 3 May, 1984 appended thereto would not seem to be a productive use of question period when the committee meeting is going to be Tuesday morning. I would think that it would be more in order to reserve those kinds of questions for officials of the corporat ion and the Minister when that exchange can take place. The meeting is currently scheduled, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. lt is a question asking for a matter of some detail. The Minister may or may not choose to answer it. The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Ye s, Mr.

Speaker, the committee I believe will be meeting on the 8th of May, but if the member wants more specific information with respect to the causes of the previous write-downs, I'm sure that he's read the rest of the report and I would refer him to Page 6 of the report. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, with reference to that particular item, and that particular note, there are adjustments primarily for inventory in previous years and I want to know from the Minister then if, since that particular item is a special item that doesn't show up as part of the loss in the 1982 statement, or as part of the loss for the operations in 1983, whether or not that item should be added to the loss of 1983; and whether, in fact, the loss for the 1983 operations should be $2.8 million rather than $1.2 million as shown. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, it may well be that the Leader of the Opposition wishes to disagree with the Provincial Auditor's report on the financial dealings of McKenzie Seeds, but the fact of the matter is that there has been a large increase in the deficit for the year which ended October 31, 1981. Maybe the member is sensitive about that. lt happens to be a year for which they were respo nsible.

Now what the Provincial Auditor did was take a look at the inventory to determ ine whether that indeed was a reasonable amount to show as inventory and he determined that it was not and therefore he wrote it down for that particular year.

He said further that the 19 82 num bers were overstated in terms of inventory and therefore there was a write-down of inventory for 1982, and therefore an increase in the deficit for'82, but surely the Leader of the Opposition is not saying that when under their admin istration the num bers came in incorrectly, that we should now for the year ending October 31, 1983 take the full res ponsibility for all of those changes. You know, there are accounting changes that come in to all kinds of operations, and this is another one, and they will have to explain their losses. We're prepared to explain ours. MR. G.

FILMON: Mr. Speaker, then I wonder if the Minister could indicate, since he has said that the inventories were overstated last year and the year before, what the reaso ns given by the then management of McKenzie Seeds was for that overstatement of value of invent ory. 395 HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, as I said, this matter will be before the committee on May 8th, and all of those detailed que stions can be answered at that time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney-General also regarding McKenzie Seeds.

The RCM P has been conducting an investigation related to conflict of interest at McKenzie Seeds, that investigation has been going on for some time. Can the Attorney-General advise the House whether or not any charges have been laid? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: The investigation will be complete, I'm advised by senior officials of the RC MP, in or about the first week in June, perhaps the second week in June, and that report will then be placed In the hands of senior Crown with respect to possible criminal charges.

But as of this date the investigation is not complete and no charges have as yet been laid. Brandon General Hospital - waiting period MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health. I wonder if the Minister of Health could advise the House as to the approximate waiting period for elective surgery at Brandon General Hospital. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I'll have to take that as notice. MR. B. RANSOM: Would the Minister, while he's taking that question as notice, also find out what the waiting period was two, three years ago? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Ye s, I will. Shoal Lake cottage development - access roads MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of the Environment. I wonder if the Minister could inform the House of the results of a major meeting that was held on Tuesday by all the participants, the Federal Government, the province, city and the Shoal Lake Indian Band, to discuss the proposed cottage development on Shoal Lake? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter for the Environment. HON. G. LECUVER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'll have to take that as notice as wel l.

Thuracter. 3 lhy, 11184 MRS. G. HAMMOND: Could the Minister explain why the Chairman, Mr. Tom Owens, the Deputy Minister of Environment, did not attend this important meeting? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Speaker, I understand that this was a misunderstanding in terms of scheduling of the meeting. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Speaker, just one further question to the Minister. Did anyone from the province attend that meeting? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Speaker, I just want to indicate to make sure that this is clear, there is no disagreement on this particular issue at this time.

Negotiations are ongoing and there will be future meetings, regular mee tings, and as far as I kno w there was no representative at this week's meeting. Layoff notices - workplace safety MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Speake r. I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health. Can the Minister confirm that layoff notices have been sent to a number of employees under the Workplace Safety and Health Department? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter for the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to confirm that as in all other departments, in accordance with the previously announced changes in the program delivery of priorities, three and not six - as mentioned in the

article in today's paper that I have read as my colleague has - have received notice that the functions that they are now fulfilling will be discontinued as of September. There were no such things as layoff notices but simply that we would be making every effort to redeploy these within the department, or other departments of government. MR. A. KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister . How does this government, who have made workplace safety a high priority, justify the reducing of staff? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr.

Speaker, this in no way reflects in the delivery of the services which I believe - and the member will have an opportunity to review the details of the department's programs and delivery of services when we go through the Estimates - but in no way does this reflect in the reduction of the priority in this area or services in this area. In fact, if anything, the legislation introduced in the last Session, the regulations that have so far been introduced during the course of this year and some of those that are soon to be introduced, if anything reflects a greater degree of attention and concern for that area. Mr.

Speaker, the very fact that we have now provided through the legislation, the right to know, the right to participate in the workplace, is providing workers of Manitoba not with less, but a great deal more service from the department. 396 Mr. Speaker, if we were to provide Workplace Safety and Health inspectors for every workplace in Manitoba, even though we would quadruple the numbers of Workpla ce Safety and Health Inspectors, we'd still be able to reach every workplace maybe once every three or four years and that, in essence, might not provide any service at all.

What we need to do is to provide the technical support and the assistance to the members of the workplace. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Lakeside on a point of order. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I ask you to remind the Honourable Minister of our Rules with respect to not using the question period as a debating forum. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader to the same point. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the concern of the Honourable Member for Lakeslde. I share the concern, Mr. Speaker.

The difficulty that members on this side have is that questions are often asked which would be more :lirectly dealt with during the Estimates review of that particular department, In which detailed examination of the Minister's management of that department can be examined by honourable members. Whether that, Sir, was with respect to a Crown Corporation report, which will be considered in detail in a Stand ing Com mittee, or the detailed Estimates of the department and the staffing and other management decision of that department are going to be examined in committee. Mr.

Speaker, if honourable members wish to use the question period for that detailed examination, they have that right, and I would not deny it for a minute. But for them to then insist that we can't provide the answers to those questions, Mr. Speaker, is a denial of the exchange which is supposed to take place in this House In question period. Either we use Estimates and Standing Com mittees for what they're intended or we abuse question period. If members opposite want to abuse it we'll gladly provide them with the information they want. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

If members ask very wide-open questions they must expect a very wide­ ranging answer, and I ask members to restrict their questions to questions of facts, hopefully short and to the point. The Honourable Minister. HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Speaker. I take the question as information being sought and I think the question, Mr. Speaker - and I ask the House Leader of the Opposition to take that into consideration - that the question was seeking for broad information and as such I am reply ing. To continue on and briefly complete my answer, Mr.

Speaker, I simply want to Indicate, that in providing that support to the joint commi ttees in the workplace, the safety and health inspectors will be doing a great deal more effective job than simply proforma, going to visit workplaces as perhaps had been the practice traditionally in the past.

Thursday, 3 May, 1914 So I do believe, Mr. Speak er, that the workers in the workplace as well as the employers will be benefiting from a great deal better service from the Workplace Safety and Health inspectors through the change as well. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'll try to direct my question so that I get either a yes or no answer rather than get into debate because the answer that was given to me . . . MR. SPEAKER: Question? MR. A. KOVNATS: .. . Yes I do, Mr. Speaker, and I will speak right now. In another newspaper

article it reported that the Ministerial support staff in two government departments had been increased by $156,200.00. Now the yes or no question, Mr. Speaker. Could this amount of moneys save the jobs of those people who received layoff notices? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Speaker, I'm not even sure the member is asking a question of me, but I assume that he was. I'm not even sure that I understood the whole of the question. But I want to repeat what I said a moment ago, that there are no workers who have received a layoff notice. Fish-stocking program - cutback MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain.

MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Natural Resources. A great deal of the sport fishing opportunity which is available in Manitoba is based upon lakes that are stocked with fish by the Fisheries Branch. My question to the Minister of Natural Resources is, why has that fish-stocking program been cut back? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKL ING: Mr.

Speaker, there will be ample opportunity come Monday - (Interjection) - Well, if honourable members want to deal with the operations, in a general way, of the Ministry of Natural Resources during question period, I will accomm odate them. But, immediately I start to answer in some detail, the House Leader of the Opposition Party will stand in his place and say we are abusing the rules. This House knows MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Lakeside on a point of order. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speak er, members on this side of the House are trying to ask straightforward questions.

The question that was put by the Member for Turtle Mountain, is the fish-stocking program up or down? That's a straightforward question, we don't need a 397 lecture from the Honourable Minister. If he wants to refer it to his Estimates, fine, we'll accept it. If he doesn't even want to answer the question, that's fine, we understand the rules. But don't have him lecture us about the nature of our questions. The question by Turtle Mountain, as you, Sir, understood it, was a very straightforward one. Was the fish-stocking program cut back? A MEMBER: Yes or no, Al. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader to the same point. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, to the same point of order raised by the Member for Lakeside. Once again, I concur with him and I will ask my colleagues on this side to accept his invitation to refer those questions which relate to Estimates and are asked during question period to the Estimates of their department in committee. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I'll try and phrase the question then, in terms of policy.

The government has cut back on its fish-stocking program and the government also has cut back on the limit for fish taken from lakes in which the fish-stocking program has been cut back. Last year, the Minister increased the fishing licence fee by 66 percent; what is the substantiation for the government's policy of raising licence fees and cutting back on services? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, given that the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources in a couple of days will be available for full response, 1 will not abuse the question period, I'll take the question as notice. Careerstart MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Glad stone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Speake r. My question is to the Minister of Economic Security and Employment Services. lt flows from his statement - I believe it was yesterday - about Careerstart money . Will this add itional money that's allocated for Careerstart be allocated to employers who have already applied and been rejected? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Spea ker , we have been overwhelmed with applications this year. There will be many people who will be disappointed.

We have tried to spread the money around as equitably as possible and priorizing, to the best of our abil ity, and providing useful employment opportunities. We want to take a look, in particu lar, at areas of the province where unemployment is highest but, specifically, the amount

ThuredaJ, 3 MaJ. 18M of money we have available we believe will enable us to provide more jobs than we had last year. In respect to this particular question - (Interjection) - I should take it as notice - that amount of money does not apply. I don't think it can provide a positive answer for your particular constituent. MRS. C. OLESON: I'm not quite sure. I will try again and ask him what has been the criteria to this point for al locating the funds, and what will be the criteria for these new funds, this increase In funds. HON. L. EVANS: There is no different criteria for the new funds.

The fact is that we topped up the amount of money that we had originally allocated because of the large demand for this program. MRS. C. OLESON: Will there be an extension of the deadline that was imposed for the applications because of the new money? HON. L. EVANS: No, Mr. Speaker. Legislative Library MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation or the Acting Minis ter.

I wonder, now that the government has decided to take away the services that have been given to the public for many years by closing the Legislative Library to the public, I would ask the Minister if the Legislative Library will now cease to receive the documents from the Federal Government because, under the Federal Depository Act, a depository is only designated as such if it is open to the public. Will the Legislative Library lose the documents coming from the Federal Government because of this decision? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . HON. L. DESJAR DINS: Mr.

Speaker, I think it should be clear that there are not, as reported, five full-time people that will be replaced. lt will be approximately the equivalent of three. The intention is to curtail the duplication of service s, not to close the facilities when it is the only place where the documents can be found. The Minister, on his return - he's away from the House on government business - will explain this position further. MR. F. JOHNSTON: lt will be interesting to know If our Legislative Librar y will still receive documents from the Federal Government. Mr.

Speaker, I would ask if the service to the Members of the Legislature, because there is going to be a reduction of staff of five people - for example, we're informed that the reduction of staff of two people In the Reading Room will take place - will the Members of the Legislature have the same fast, efficient service we have enjoyed in the past, especially the opposition? HON. L. DESJARDINS: In the years that I've been here, Mr. Speaker, the period of time that the Legislative 398 Library has been open has varied, and that is a possibili ty.

I would like to remind the member that he's one of the same mem bers that is talking about deficit and that we should do every thing possible to curtail deficit; you've got to start somewhere. A MEMBER: Oh, it is a cutback, sure it's a cutback. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Sure, it's a cutback. If you are going to try to stop the duplication, it is a cutback. A MEMBER: Howard said that wouldn't happen. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the last answer, I would ask the First Minister this question.

If he enjoys reading the expensive propaganda in the paper, rather than having five people working in this province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, first, I wish that the honourable member • maybe because of the noise from his side of the Cham ber, I don't know - if he had listened he would have heard the Minister indicate three, and not five.

Honourable members should realize, in fact, that to ensure that ther e be fiscal responsibility, that there be some control in respect to suspending of operations, that there has to be a redeployment of staff but at the same time avoiding the trimming or cutting of services that are vital and important to the Province of Manitoba. Mr . Speaker, I do not know where it is Imagined - maybe it is Conservative phil osophy, maybe it is, in fact the more I hear, the more I think it is - that some way or other, duplication of services are all right in certain areas even though it be government waste.

This New Democratic Party Government will do all it can to eliminate the duplication of services. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I would ask this question, they want to know my priorities. My priorities are Manitobans working rather than looking at lousy expensive propoganda put out by the Jobs Fund when they're supposed to have people working in this province. So, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the First Minister, is his priority to read his expensive propaganda rather than have people working in this province? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. hON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't really know if that is a question, but it is the kind of question that is so general in nature it does provide me with an opportunity to elaborate and to expand for about 10 minutes. If that question is going to be permitted, questions of that nature, I reserve the right, Mr. Speaker, to respond in turn. Mr. Speake r, the priorities of this government have been well itemized and have been well mentioned

Thursday, 3 May, 1984 repeatedly and this gives me an opportunity again, to deal with those priorities of this government. No. 1, to ensure that the moneys that are available to the Province of Manitoba are spent in connection with development of long-term asset development in Manitoba, the creation and preservation of jobs in the Province of Manitoba. No. 2, unlike what is existing in some Conservative provinces in this country, to ensure that there be a preservation and not an erosion of vitally important public services, including health care and day care in the Province of Manitoba.

No. 3, to ensure that in this process there be a reduction insofar as deficit is concerned, in order to ensure the responsible fiscal operations in the Province of Manitoba. We have accomplished those three. Mr. Speak er, 1 am responding to a general question and I reserve the right to respond accordingly. Freon - certificate for use of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M.B. DOLIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On May 1st, the Member for Roblin- Russell asked me a question with regard to certification of persons who are using Freon and ammonia.

I have that answer for members opposite now, and it takes a bit of explanation. lt's a short answer, but I think it's quite explan atory. Freon is, as you know, a non-toxic, non-flammable gas. Single unit factory assembled Freon refrigeration plants under 100 tons capacity are exempt from The Power Engineers Act, they do not require operators. All refrigeration plants under 50 tons are exempt as well. Experience gained in operating a Freon refrigeration plant of under 100 tons, therefore, is not acceptable under the licensing requirements.

Ammonia, however, is a toxic gas; it is generally conside red to be non-flammable, however . Most ammonia plants are field assembled and do not qual ify for the exemption as factory assembled. They do require operators when over 50 tons. Experience gained in an ammonia plant over 50 tons, therefore, does count under the regulations. A person holding a valid refrigeration certificate is entitled to work in both ammonia and Freon plants; but a person who has had experience only in Freon would not be licensed and, therefore, would not be able to operate an ammonia plant.

For the information of members opposite - this little lesson on ammonia and Freon - all of the people attending the course at Gimli that he mentions . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Minister on a point of order. HON. H. PAWLEV: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if it would be possible if there could be sufficient respect for the response, that at least those members that wish to hear the response would have an opportunity to really hear above the din across the Chamber . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

If the answer to the question is to be detailed or lengthy, perhaps the Honourable Minister would care to table it so that members can read it. 399 HON. M.B. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, I have just one comment to make about the Gimli course, and that is the end of my statement. The people attending the course at Gimli who passed the final course exam were all allowed to write the department examination - all of them who passed the course. As a matter of fact, however, none of the people who had only Freon experience were in fact able to pass the examination.

If the member wishes any further information I'll be happy to get it from our mechanical and engineering branch. Ice storm - clean-up costs MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: My question is for the Minister of Government Services. Yesterday he Ind icated that certain compensation was available to communities to pay the clean-up costs caused by damage during the ice storm. Could the Minister indicate whether the municipalities and towns so involved have been notified of this program so that they can make application in a proper manner? MR.

SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mini ster of Government Services. HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, the member is incorrect in his statement that I ind icated that there was assistance available. I made no such statement. I said that any requests that we would receive for assistance would be reviewed and dealt with according to present policy. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Sp eak er, is the Mini ster indicating to, for instance, the Town of Morden and the Town of Carman. that they may not receive compensation, as discussed with EMO and the Disaster Assistance Board, and that a decision for compensation after the damage clean-up costs are paid will be a political decision made by this Mi nister and this government? HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, my staff is monitoring and getting in touch with all municipalities that were in the path of the recent storm and where damages occurred.

That information is being tabulated now and the extent of the damage is being monitored and we will deal with those damages, as has been In the past. I don't know what else the member wants. There is a program in place at the present time and all applications for assistance will be dealt with in the usual manner. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Can the Minister then give the communities so involved in the clean-up operation and the costs thereof the assurance that he will stand by the word of the Chairman of EMO, and the Disaster Assistance Board, who have ind icated to those communities that they will be supported on a funding formula for their clean-up costs, and that the Minister will not renege on the word given to those communities by staff in his department? HON. A. ADAM: Well, Mr. Speak er, I know not what the member speaks of. He should perhaps elaborate

.Tburadlly, 3 May, 1984 on what commitments have been made by staff. Mr. Speaker, perhaps he may be referring to seminars that have been held throughout the province to seek the input of municipalities on looking at different ways of formulating a new policy. There has been no policy as yet adopted and the member well knows that. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Since the Mi nister wishes a clar ification, I would ask the Minister to get in touch with the head of EMO who has visited Morden, and I understand Carman, and ask the head of the EMO, who is his employee, as to what kind of a commitment he made to those two communities; and furthermore, to tell the mayors of both those communities that he indeed will live up to that commitment. HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, I would certainly have to find out if the director of EMO has in fact made any statements.

I would doubt very much whether there was any commitment made other than what the present policy indicates at the present time. Legislative Library MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the First Minister. As a graduate student at the University of Manitoba and as a curator at the Museum of Man and Nature, I had occasion to use the Provincial library.

Without trivializ lng or politicizing the questions of the Member for Sturgeon Creek, I wonder if the First Minister could assure this House that he will do every thing possible to maintain the access by members of the academic community to documents held by the Provincial Library, which are not available at other locations in this province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , I do thank the honourable member for presenting that question because it does, I think, clarify what the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek was attempting to pose by way of question. Mr.

Speake r, where there in fact is no duplication of service, where the service can only be provided through the libra ry, then it would be the intent on the part of the government to ensure the continuation of that particular service. If indeed the service that's being requested Is one that is being provided elsewhere, such as the Winnipeg library or other quarters, it would not be the intention of the government to duplicate that service. Brandon University MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would ask my question of the Minister of Education.

When is the Minister going to ask the Board of Governors at the Brandon University to stop throwing 400 away money - some $20,000 in its last effort - on witch hunts, in attempting to find fiscal irresponsibility on behalf of the former president, Dr. Perkins? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, I think we all know that a board like the Board of Governors of a university has many responsibilities, and clearly one of the most important responsibilities that any of them hold - and that we are often asked questions by members of the opposition on matters like this because they know it so important - is the question of the accountability and the expenditures of public money.

That is a tremendous trust that is given to people to have that responsibility and it is their job to make sure that the money that is spent can be accounted for; that it is spent in an appropriate and not an inappropriate way; and if they have any concerns that there are any questions about the expenditures of money that are meant for the university, then it is their responsibility to examine and to look into that to make sure there aren't any problems there. They are meeting their responsibilities, Mr. Speaker. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Speak er, this is the second special audit that has been requested by the university. How many more is the Department of Education going to sanction? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, the Department of Education does not sanction either the first one, the second one, or if they believe that it is necessary, the third one. lt is the responsibility of the Board of Governors to get whatever information they need to make sure that the money is being spent properly. MR. SPEAKER: Orde r please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEBATE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to first take this opportunity to commend the Minister of Finance and seize this opportunity to congratulate on the forward looking Budget that he introduced into this House last week. I think it was a Budget that was well accepted by the vast majority of Manitobans. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, I don't intend this afternoon to spend too much time with comments uttered by honourable members across the way, because to be very blunt and very frank with you, there has been so little of substance that requires response and anyway, Mr.

Speaker, I would sooner look forward than look back, as has been the case on the part of honourable members across the Chamber. There is a comment though that was made last evening by the Member for Fort Garry that I believe requires some comment. Mr. Speaker, a comment to the effect that the New Democratic Party Government in Manitoba was at some way at odds with the principles

Thuraday, 3 May, 1984 of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federat ion, even suggested that M.J. Coldwell and J.S. Woodsworth looking at this Budget, I assume, would be rolling over where they are presently residents. Mr. Speaker, let me say that I find those remarks to have been totally a misjudgment, a misunderstanding - wittingly or unwittingly - of the basic philosophy and principle of democratic socialism and of social democr acy, ever since the initiation of the CCF in 1933 in Regina and the formation of the New Democratic Party in 1961. Mr .

Speak er, it may indeed be the case th at honourable members with their thinking is static, rigid, dogmatic, and the inability to change with the times - I suppose, Mr. Speaker, that is conservatism - but the essence of social democracy is not to stand still, not to retain the status quo, but to be constantly prepared to examine circumstances that exist at any given time and be able to develop policies that are pragmatic, in order to relate to the circumstances of that time. Mr.

Speaker, the philo sophy of social democracy is not a philosophy that is based upon - as is the case with honourable members of the Conservative Party - a ritualistic worsh ipping at the shrine of either private enterprise or public enterprise or co-operative enterprise. lt's a recog nition that what is best is what works, Mr. Speaker, at any given time. That's the essence of social democracy and what social democracy attempts to achieve and does achieve.

I think the record of social democracy throughout, whether it be in Canada or other parts of the world, is indeed a record of success. lt's a record of responding to challenges. A record of indeed having the best economic performance wherever social democracy has been implemented, and need I only refer honourable members to the experiences in Sweden, in Denmark, in West Germany, and in other countr ies of the world where social democracy in fact has been the beacon of success. Mr. Speak er, economic development, economic growth is not good enough insofar as itself is concerned.

The essence and importance of social democracy is the fair distribution of the abundance of that which we produce, in order to ensur e every man, woman and child has a fair opportunity to enjoy the fullness of life, the meaningful nature of life, and otherwise, Mr . Speaker, to improve the human condition of each and every individual. When the Hon ourable Mem ber for Fort Garry suggested some way or other that the philosophy of M.J. Coldwell and J.S. Woodsworth was collectivist, heavy taxation, in fact he demonstrated his ignorance of the thoughts, the philosophies, the ideas of the founders of this movement, Mr.

Speaker, and I want to publicly here today, reject the unfair inference by the Ho nour able Memb er for Fort Garr y and the ignorance that he displayed in this Chamber yesterday. Mr. Speaker, I acknowledge that the Conservative Party also changes over the years and they are very reluctant to change because by the very essence, the Conservative Party is a party of small "c" conservat ism. But they change, Mr.

Speaker. 11 must indeed have hurt honourable members across the way when they fought long, heavy, filibus tered in this House - not bell-ringing - but at least they filibustered by way of speeches and they played it properly according to the rules; an 401 opposition to the institution of public automobile insurance in this province 1970-7 1. They said, in fact, it would create wreckage in the automobile insurance industry; they said that employees massively would be laid off; they said agents would be bankrupted; it would have tremendous blow upon the economy of the Province of Manitoba. Mr.

Speak er, 1977 and 19 81 they ended up acce pting pu blic automobile insurance; they ended up acce pting and endorsing public automobile insurance and, indeed, by so doing indicating that their position of eight years earlier was not an accurate one. Mr. Speaker, I commend honourable members for that across the way, I commend them for the fact that it only took nine years for them to change on something as positive and excellent as public automobile insurance.

At least honourable members, despite their small "c" conservatism after nine years were pragmatic enough to recognize that we can be proud of the institution of public automobile insurance in the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Speak er, I would like to also applaud the slow moving, yet happening, reaction of Conservatives across the way in respect to Medicare. In reg ard to Medicare, 1966-1967 the Provincial Government in this province were reluctant to enter into a comprehensive Medicare Program in the Province of Manitoba. But, Mr.

Speaker, now we have their Federal Leader in Ottawa, that some honourable members across the way don't care too much for, but their Honourable Leader in Ottawa giving full-hearted support to the principles of the Canada Health Act, and bringing his federal caucus along with him in support of The Canadian Health Act and its provisions. So, Mr. Speaker, honourable members across the way they change but it's a slow process. lt's a slow process behind the movement toward greater understanding of the essence of society, the rec ognition that we can, by working as a commun ity, improve the quality of life.

We can improve the potentials of each individual so that each individual is able to maximize their contribution to the community as a whole. lt takes a long time, Mr. Speaker, for honourable members to recog nize that. I just wish for once, Mr. Speaker, just for once, that honourable members could lead the way insofar as at least one piece of social reform is concerned, rather than being 10 years, 20 years behind the times insofar as the acceptance of social refo rm. Mr.

Speaker, even if it means being a little ahead of our times, I would sooner be ahead of our times than be dragging my feet decades behind the times as honourable members and their policital philosophy are across the way. Mr. Speaker, what in fact I found to be of great interest this afternoon during the question period, we have heard from honourable members during the debate there should have been greater tax cuts in certain areas, we have heard from honourable members that spending has been too great. Ye t, Mr.

Speaker, in the space of what 10 , 15 mi nutes, critical remarks from the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek because this government has the boldness and the courage to eliminate duplication in one area of public service. Another honourable memb er, Mr. Speaker , and I think unfair ly, tried to put words in the mouth of the Minister in respect to automatically responding for requests for

Thu..-d•r, 3 ... , 1184 compensation on April 27th in the storm. Mr. Speaker, what we have across the way are April 27th socialists, socialism for April 27th, but not for April 26th, or April 28th; that's the kind of socialists we have across the way. Mr . Speaker, the direction, the strategy of this government is deli berate; it is planned; it is direct, and I want to deal with that over the next period of time, Mr.

Speaker , because I think it's im portant that it be outline d in some detail this afternoon, not for honourable members across the way necessarily, but for Ma nitobans in general so there is a clear unders tanding, Mr. Speaker, of the purposes and the objectives to which we seek. Mr.

Speaker, I menti oned during the Question Period the th ree important objectives of this gover nment: (1) jobs; (2) economic security and the preservat ion of vital public services; the preser vation and enhancement of our health care system, our day care system , despite the fact that we are presently within a period of time that is difficult throughou t Canada, and the western world; and (3) fiscal resp onsibility, Mr. Speaker. I want to first say that I was somewhat embar rassed by comments that what we had was a conservative Budget. I want to demonstrate, Mr.

Speaker, that indeed this is not a conservative Budget because I do not for a moment want to be labelled as a Conservative. I can't think of a greater insult, Mr. Speaker, than to be labelled a Conservative or be suggested in any quarter that this government has tabled a conservative document in this House. Mr. Speaker, this is a Budget that the Minister of Finance has carefu lly designed in order to meet the economic circumstanc es of today in the Province of Manitoba. lt has been a Budget that has been well reasoned with a deli berate intent in mind.

Through our economic strategy we have worked to insure that Man itobans can shoulder-to-shoulder with other Manitobans, whether it be in the busi ness community , the labour commu nity, other levels of government, community organizations, work together in order to lay the foundations for Manitobas economic turnabout. Mr. Speaker, we've gone through one stage of economic thrust since this government was elected in November 1981.

You recall the initiation of the first stage was in response to what was a crush ing international recession situation to, say the least, not a very good economic climate in this province that had been left for us as a result of the mismanagement of the economy by the previous Conservative Government in the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, we had during that period of time to design a deli berate strategy in order to carry us through Stage 1.

That was a deli berate strategy in order to ensure that there be job creation, and the emphasis was on job creat ion, not neces sarily the development of long-term assets because we had the impact of the international and Canadian reces sion to deal with. No. 2, Mr. Speaker, we had to ensure that during those tough, difficult times that we were able to ensure that residents of this province would not suffer as they have suffered from other jurisdictions in Canada by the erosion of health care and other services and programs. Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain said yesterday, why can't we debate things 402 like extra billing, I believe, sales tax. I say let's debate them, I have no problem with debating them, but I want to, Mr. Spea ker, make it very clear where this government stands. We're opposed to extra billing, we're opposed to premiums on Medica re, and there need be no doubt as to the position of this government in respect to those issues. lt was important, Mr.

Speaker, that we ride out that recessionary storm without the eroding or our health services, and without the eroding of other im portant social programs and at the same time, Mr. Speaker, that we do what we could with our limited financial, and jurisdictional areas of res ponsibility to minimi ze the im pact of the reces sion upon the unemployed, to minimi ze the number of unem ployed that would be on welfare or unemployment insurance, but would still provide the unemployed an opportunity to contribute through various programs. Mr.

Speaker, we were able to do that during a time in which the economies of our neighbouring provinces unfortunately deteriorated, just as they did here, but deteriorated much more rapidly in other provinces because we had a deli berate strategy in place, Stage 1. We im plemented that strategy. Mr. Speaker, what we are prepared to recog nize is that our unemployment levels in this province are still away too high, unacceptably high, particularly in the age group 18 to 30. And, Mr.

Speaker, we don't easily toss around the phrase "blue skies." We believe there is a much better future and we should be striving, working to that future. But, Mr. Speaker, we recog nize the fact that there's still altogether too much unemplo yment in the Province of Manitoba, despite the fact that we have the lowest rate of unemplo yment presently in Canada, in the Province of Manitoba. We are not goin g to neglect our respo nsi bil ity as a government to combat those unacceptably high levels of unem ployment in our midst. Mr.

Speaker, one of the sounde st approaches that any government - I don't think a government has to be Liberal or Conservative or New Democrat ic to understand this - is the importance of ensuring that there not be idle hands, that idle hands be put to work so that we produce goods and services. The more goods and services that are produced in any country, any province, the better the quality of life. In fact, you can't have economic base from the provision of social services. Mr.

Speaker, that ties in with the im portance of ensuring that no man, woman and child, wherever it is possible within the ability that we have available to us, sits idle as that man, woman, wants to contribute by way of dignity, and the dignity of work to the betterment of society. I'm surprised, Mr. Speaker, that that is a socialist philosophy. I would have thought that would be a Conservative philosophy. I thought a Conservative philosophy would be that people ought not to be idle, that men and women should be given the opportunity to work. But it appears, Mr.

Speak er, that the attitude of honourable members across the way as displayed during the Throne Speech is that the best government is the government that does nothing. Mr. Speaker, we say that is not the case, the best government is a government that performs well and respo nds to its res ponsibilities. Mr. Speaker, there is a social obligation on the part of any government. Honourable members have spoken

Thursday, 3 May, 1984 in their own constituencies, I'm sure, to men and women, young people - many of our young people, 18, 19, 20 years of age in a period of despair and frustration, anxi ety. There's nothing more unsettling than a youth not sure of his or her future because they're not given an opportunity to be employed and to contribute to the community. The despair and the frustration, the anxiety, unfortunately too frequent ly, Mr. Speak er, leading to an excessive instance of suicides, crime, alcoholism as a result of that. We cannot, we will not, sit idly by on this side, Mr.

Speaker, and wait for the day when the private sector is going to pick up its area of responsibility whether youth that despair, and are being frustrated. This government intends to do all that it can within its limited resources to relieve that kind of situation. Mr. Speaker, what we have to do : . . I hear remarks, and I don't want to get sidetracked, but it reminds me a little bit of "Animal Farm." You remember in "Animal Farm" where the characters ran around a farm and they had slogans, seven and six, seven and six, seven and six. They couldn't think in terms of anything but slogans. Mr.

Speaker, if I have seen endless and mind less rhetoric and sloganeer ing, it's been from honourable members across the way. Mr. Speak er, we received it in lumps last night from the Honourable Member for Fort Garry . For once, I would like to avoid rhetoric and sloganeering, and deal with the sensible, practical world of what is confronting us as Manitobans and how we can best deal with those problems. Mr. Speake r, yes, we have to work and develop our economy and here's where we come to Stage 2 of our strategy.

To ensure that our economy is led in a positive direction and that we take an active role insofar as working in partnership with business and labour and community and municipal organizations and the Federal Government to restore economic health in the Province of Manitoba, and to elimina te, or to at lease reduce the ravages of unemployment in our midst, and we are working deliberately towards that process. I hope, Mr.

Speaker, we are not - and I must put this on the record - I hope that we are not hindered in that process as we move into Stage 2 of our economic strategy, that we're not hindered by the outdated Conservative monetary theories that result in tight money and high interest rates that have had a crippling impact in the United States and in Canada, the rising ba nkrup tcies, rising unemplo yment because of a senseless, monetary theory that some way are things that you must in crease interest rates, inc rease unemployment to keep inflation down. Mr.

Speaker, I find that kind of economic reasoning not only stupid, insane, but nearly criminal because of the impact it has. Mr. Speaker, I am again going to just move a little bit off my intention here, to indicate that I wish that whoever forms the Government of Canada after the next election would do something about Governor Bouey and ensure that he would have appropriate opportunity to enjoy early vacation in Florida, because I find Governor Bouey reflects that kind of inhuman, ancient thinking at the highest levels of monetary policy in Canada . Tha t's why I say, Mr.

Sp eake r, and honourable members have not liked this, that there is much more basic agreement and similarity between 403 the Liberal and Conservative Parties, there always has been, than indeed they would like to acknowledge in this Chamber because I do n't think honourable members would do anything about monetary policy being pursued by the Liberals. They didn't do anything when they had a chance during nine months of Prime Minister Clark.

I wouldn't antici pate they would do anything even with the Honourable Member for Fort Garry's possible inclusion in the caucus after the next election with a Prime Minister Mulroney Government. I hope Mr. Mulroney's relationship improves with honourable members across the way, that being the case, but 1 don't really anticipate that there'll be any change in that senseless, mindle ss monetary thrust.

About a year ago, my government introduced the Manitoba Jobs Fund to create jobs by working, as I said, together with the business commun ity, the labour communi ty, municipal community organizations, the Federal Government, and, Mr. Speaker, the success of the Jobs Fund has been demonstrated In the unemployment statistics. I'm again going to draw those statistics to honourable members across the way because I think we should take pride as Manitobans. I don't know why we can't take some pride that we started the first few feet, and only the first few feet, Mr. Speaker, towards economic recovery in Manitoba.

I'm not claiming that we've reached economic recovery, but surely they take some pride that we're lead ing the country and we've taken those first few important steps towards economic recovery and a better future for Ma nitobans. Why can't we be proud that we're beginning that important accomplishment? Mr. Speaker, I've mentioned before in this House that we've enjoyed the second lowest rate of unemployment of all provinces; March, the lowest rate of unemployment of all provinces. In addition, we have, through deliberate policy, ensured that temporary jobs are moved into permanent jobs. Mr.

Speaker, individuals, and I'm not going to nit­ pick about numbers because I notice it had been brought up, nit-picking about whether it's 21,000 or a little less than 21,000 - maybe it was 21,002 or 20,098 - who knows? But what I do know is that thousands and thousands of Manitobans who would otherwise be drawing unemployment insurance and welfare were working in meaningful employment and were removed during that period of time from the frustration and despair of not knowing they were doing meaningful work and contributing to the community. That's all that's important, Mr.

Speaker, not the nit­ picking but the fact that there was accomplishment, there was achievement. What we did did contribute to the comparatively better situation in Manitoba than in Conservative jurisdictions in this country. Mr. Speaker, this meant jobs for the unemployed; this meant jobs for students; this meant jobs for young people; this meant jobs for women; this meant jobs for those in our Native commun ity, Northern Manitoba, that would not otherwise have been there, and that is important, Mr. Speake r. That cannot be minimized. Also what this means by way of essence, Mr.

Speaker - there's "Animal Farm" again. A MEMBER: Seven and six.

HON. H. PAWLEY: What's seven and six, seven and six; one-and-a-half and one-and-a-half. Mr. Speaker, what also is important is the demonstration that co­ operation does go a long way. Mr.

Speaker, I suspect that this government, by confrontation for momentary political gains, it might be much more politically popular in some quarters, but it would be to the contrary interests of the Province of Manitoba and we will not bend to mindless confrontation with other levels of government that we happen to disagree with politically, that will hurt the future of Manitobans in this province; co-operation, not confrontation. Mr.

Speaker, I want to simply place on the record for honourable mem bers because it is important that this be recognized, that 40 percent of the moneys from the Jobs Fund did not come from the Provincial Government, 40 percent of the money for the Jobs Fund projects came from the private sector, from municipal government, and from the federal government itself, and I believe that Is important to demonstrate the ability of groups, organizations and different levels of government to co-operate together; about $157 million in f�>ct, in total, through that process of co­ operation and working together.

But the Jobs Fund did much more than put people back to work, it left within this province long-lasting assets. I have received many letters from constituencies represented by honourable members across the way, in fact, I should have brought them into this House and read them in this House.

Letters from mayors and secretary-treasurers in towns and vill ages represented by honourable members across the way, thanking us for the fact that we had the foresight and the initiative to institute a Jobs Fund in the Province of Manitoba; that we made some improvement In towns and villages in this province; that we created some long-lasting assets at the communi ty level in this province. Mr. Speaker, whether it be sewer and water, whether it be the main streets of this province, by working together we achieved a great deal in difficult times.

Manitobans, I think, can be proud that indeed by their working together they have accom plished this as Manitobans. I am proud, Mr. Speaker, that this element of my government strategy has had a measure of success in the total operation, in the co-ordination and bringing together of these initiatives in the province.

But there are other successes that I would like to deal with by way of my government's economic strategy. 1t is clear that job creation in itself is not enough, and that job creation in itself is not enough to ensure long­ term economic development and growth and strengthening of the economy, and I appreciate it. I want to commend the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain on what I thought was generally a thoughtful speech yesterd ay, identifying and analyzing the weaknesses within the Manitoba economy.

And that has been very much in the forefront of this government's economic strategy, to ensure that we do have long­ term economic development, to aid those ind ustries that are the backbone of the Manitoba econom y, and we took those steps, Mr. Speaker. We approached the Government of Canada, as I mentioned a few days ago, with a list of projects that one could relate to the needs within the Manitoba economy, to strengthen the Manitoba economy.

To ensure that through the approach of co-operative 404 federalism we would be able to benefit Manitobans, that we could provide funds in co-operation with the Federal Government because we can't obviously do all that funding ourselves, to contribute to the strengthening of the economic base of Manitoba. Throughout the past year my government has, therefore, successfully negotiated a series of a')reaments, and I have not heard from the members across the way, except some shouts of porkbarreling by Mr.

Axworthy, but I am not quite sure whether honourable members across the way concur with those kinds of agreements, or whether they would have permitted jurisdictional or party politics, to have blocked the opportunity to sign those agreements essential and Important to the Province of Manitoba. I would have enjoyed having the opportunity to listen to honourable members across the way talk about those joint agreements, to have indicated where they stand in respect to those joint agreements. Would they have signed, or would they not have signed?

Would they have been able to put aside their political and partisan ideological blinkers and sat down with the appropriate federal min isters to sign those agreements? Or would they have turned their backs on that opportunity, and thus have turned their backs on Manltobans? If we are to reflect upon the history of the honourable members across the way during thi� 1977-1981 period by way of their pattern, it might very well have been, Mr. Speaker, they would have turned their backs on the opportunity that was made available to Manitobans through joint co-operative federalism with the Federal Government In Ottawa.

Mr. Speaker, to sign agreements with people that don't particularly share your political views you don't need to love them, but you can agree that you represent the same people, you have the same responsibility, the same obligation to the same voters. These kind of agreements have provided to Manitobans long-term investment; they have provided an opportunity for joint investment in our key economic sectors- agriculture, forestry, mine exploration, housing, transportation. Through our work, Mr.

Speaker, we have been able to sign agreements that have meant $400 million of joint federal-provincial Investment in the strength of this province, to build upon those strengths in order to ensure that we have a sounder, more viable economic future in Manitoba. $400 million is not to be laughed at, Mr. Speaker, and I am simply amazed that honourable members have not add ressed themselves at any length to the issue of these impo rtant agreements, what these agreements will do to the Province of Manitoba; and more importantly, I would like to have heard where honourable members stand in respect to those agreements.

Do they support them? Do they disagree with them? What would they do if they were in office? I believe the substance of those agreements and the prr acts that have been anno unced will brin g nourishment to the Manitoba economy - and I am surprised to have heard some members, in fact, shouting from their seats, "nothing," Mr. Speaker - $400 million of infrastructure, $400 million of assistance to the forestry, to the mining, to the agricultural, to the transportation industry of this province is not nothing, Mr. Speaker, it is major accomplishment to Manitobans through joint federal co-operation. Also, Mr.

Speaker, an active approach is required and, once again, my govern ment has pulled up its

Thur8day, 3 May, 1884 bootstraps, went to work on developing long-term investment through major capital projects, proposals that we presented to the Federal Government - and I am happy to say that we are now realizing positive impact from those projects. We took the initiative and I am pleased to see, Mr. Speaker, that Manitobans are now reaping benefit from those proposals that we initiated. Ye s, and even at the time we made those proposals, was there support from honourable members across the way, did honourable members get up and say that was a good thing?

Honourable members dubb ed it the "wish list"; they laughed, they scoffed , there was references to Vie in Wonderland. Your seatmate, the Memb er for Arthur , called "Vie in Wonderland" was the phrase that was used, Vie in Wonderland. Mr. Speaker, I would think that by this time honourable members would be a little bit more careful insofar as the careless cynicism that they express out loud in this Cham ber about the initiatives that this government has undertaken. I believe that we are be ginning to nurture this economy back to health.

We're on the long road to economic recovery - a recovery that is renewing the hopes of Manitobans, renewing their optimism, and most important, Mr. Speaker, renewing their energies. What could be more optimistic in these times than the prospect of long-term ec onomi c development, initiatives, investment in our future, investment in our communities. We are hopeful as a government, and we are optimistic, and we have every reason to be. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to again remind honourable members - I'm not talking about department store sales as honourable members do across the way - I'm talking about retail sales - exceeded the Canadian average, exceeded the increase in each of the four western provinces last year; housing starts that increased by three times the Canadian average; Manitobans being able to suffer fewer bankruptcies than other western provinces; our childr en, fellow Manitobans re turning to this province after a numb er of years of exile in other provinces because of the economic mismanagement that occurred in this province, during the time that they had the opportunity - the pre-recession period of time - when they had the opportunity for our sons and daughters to have been sent into exile because of economic mismanagement of the previous Conservative administration in Manitoba.

The Conference Board of Canada, along with others, has forecast investment growth in Manitoba for 1984 to be the strongest growth rate for any province in Canada. During the same period, Mr. Speaker, our revenues increased by 1 percent, where our total budgetary requir ements dropped by $87 million. In other words, Mr . Speaker, we reduced the estima ted Budget deficit for 1983 without detrac ting from our commitment to the provision of public services: health care, education, day care, other vital services.

What other jurisdictions in this country where Tories reign seized upon the recession as an excuse to slash public services? - (Interjec tion) - We ll, Mr. Speaker, you say I waxed eloquent. You need only travel to British Columbia, to Al berta, to New Brunswick any other Conservative jurisdiction, if you doubt that there's been a slashing of public services in those provinces.

The introduction of user fees, higher premiums, higher health insurance premiums for health care, or placing 405 those services in some areas in the private se ctor from the public sec tors we've seen recently in the Province of Saskatchewan in the Department of Highways. Mr. Speaker, we enhanced those services. Manitobans have every right to anticipate and to expect that those vital services will be provided without being penal ized by user fees, by excessive health insurance premiums, just because they use those services. Mr.

Speaker, my government has demonstrated in this Budget that we're going to ensure that health care and pu blic services are maintained and they are preserved. They're vital to the well-being of our province. Mr. Speaker, a Budget is often like a road map. lt signifies direction, direction in which a government intends to proceed. it provides an indication of direction and of strategy , and through the Throne Speech, through the Budget Add ress, again honour able members have ignored this important area of Initiative and, Sir, I wonder why.

I wonder if it's just that they prefer to not discuss the important initiatives of this government because they worry. it's obvious here every day, in fact when we come into this House, that there is a great deal of worry across the way. it's obvious in the behaviour , the demeanour of honourable members across the way insofar as their react ion to honourable members on this side. Honourable members across the way seem to be uptight these days, I don't know. I've never seen honourable members as uptight as I have in the last two weeks in this Chamb er.

I think it demonstrates a large measure of Insecurity because honourable members are unea sy about debating with this government, the direction that this government is proceeding. They're concerned about debating the long-term development thrusts that this government intends to proceed with in Manitoba; a long-term development for jobs, for economic security, the intention to build a vibrant strong economy today for Manitoba's future and also for tomor row. Mr. Speaker, I mentioned that in the Budget Address there was reference to the second stage by way of economic policy that was being unfolded.

In addition to containing the operating deficit and reducing it from last year 's level, my government introduced measures that will further encourage the private sector in its economic development thr usts in Manitoba. it is vital to the Manitoba economic base that we not drag our feet insofar as ensuring that the busine ss community in Manitoba is able to take opportunity of the new technological developments that are occurring in the province. In order to aid busi ness in that - in stren gthening the Manitoba economy - a manufacturing investment tax credit was introduced by the Honourable Minister of Finance.

A tax credit that was designed to provide an additional incent ive for investment and new production facili ties, new buildings, machine ry, equip ment that are used in manufacturing in the processing business. But the tax reductions contained in the Budget have also been desig ned to ensure that the fruits of a growing economy are shared by all Manitobans in a fair and equitable manner. That's why, Mr. Speaker, we provided for an exemption in respect to the post-seco ndary education and health levy under $50,000 by way of payroll and for that small business segment of the economy .

As the Minister of Finance pointed out,

ThuredaJ, 3 Mar, 1884 another 2,000 will benefit from the $75,000 ceiling in respect to reduced levy payments. Furthermore, Ma nitobans who need it most will receive a further benefit and that is so far as those of low income are concerned. Some 60,000 will receive an average reduction insofar as their tax burden is concerned, of some $55.00.

Now honourable members may think that isn't a great deal and lt's not nearly as much as anyone would like in this Cham ber, but to someone on very low income, that is a significant and very important move and I think it's an important demons tration of this government's commitment to those of low income and fixed-income pensioners in Manitoba. • Mr.

Speaker, we've also given the Jobs Fund an expanded mandate, building on the spirit of co­ operation which is characterized in the first year of the Jobs Fund activity when labour , busine ss, governments worked together to provide emp loyment and other economic stimulus. Our government has identified 12 sectors as esse ntial to long-term viabil ity and strength in the Manitoba economy. lt is to those sectors that this government intends to provide its role with a catalyst in order to stimulate economic development and growth and employment. I want to list those 12 areas to you, Mr. Speaker.

Agriculture, recog nizing that agriculture Is a base of the Manitoba economy, that we must expand the value and the range of products and the quality of those products that lend themselves to further processing in Ma nitoba. Hydro energy development and the tremendous potential that this province has insofar as developing energy intensive industry in order to ensure that we be in the forefront of economic development in the 1990's, hydro energy is at the top of the list. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, in the same way that timb er is imp ortant to B.C., oil to Al berta, and potash to Saskatchewan, energy has the same potential to the economic betterment of the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, the small-bus ine ss community will be a target of economic assistance on the part of this government, to ensure that there is support to offset current deficiencies, to encourage growth in capital investment within the smal l-b us iness commun ity, employment opportunities, both in Manitoba and in traditional and non-traditional business areas. Tec hnology, probably one of the most important.

We all have noted the rapid development and occupation of Minne sota, Minneapolis-St. Paul particularly in the United States, is a capital of technology growth. I had an opportunity to visit Minneapolis about a month ago when I had a chance to meet with some of our people from Northern States Power and, at the same time, to discuss their technology developments in Minneapolis, and to see how they have been able to utilize the development of technol ogy, to improve their industries and their manufac turing capacity in Minneapolis.

I believe that we can also adapt in Manitoba; we can utilize our existing techno logy. it's of critical importance to improving productivity, profitability, at the same time, recognizing the human factor that is going to be involved in that adaptive process, and we must be sensitive at all times to that. Transportat ion, the im portance of enhancing Manitoba's status as a transportation centre. And certainly the agreement that I referred to earlier has 406 been fundamental to strengthening and developing the transportation sector in the Province of Manitoba.

Transportation has been keyed historically to the economic viability of the Province of Manitoba. We've been losing our position; I believe that we can regain that position with a delib erate strategic effo rt. A MEMBER: Not with you guys. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, honourable members's saying, "not with you guys." Let me remind honourable members across the way that it was this government that signed the agreement for the improvement of the Port of Churchill; it was this government that provided for a dredging of the Port of Churchill; it was this government that signed an agreement pertaining to lightweight hopper cars in Transcona. What did they do, Mr. Speaker? As one of them said, we held a meeting in Dauphin, Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, they made sure the television was there; the Honourable Member for Arthur , th e former Min ister of Agri cultu re, I remember him there; I guess, the Honourable Member for Pembina. There was a meeting, there was lots of publicity but what was produced from that meeting, Mr. Speaker? Nothing. Publ icity? No achiev ement, Mr. Speaker. So, Mr. Speaker, we will not be lectured by irresponsible statements from honourable members across the way, let me assure you.

We intend to develop inno vative approaches, such as, transporta tion equipment, manuf acturing, to take an active role as I indicated in the development of the Port of Churchill. Mr. Speaker, an area of the economy that is too frequently ignored, and also is a target of our economic thrust, will be co-operative development. Co-operative development has been an area that has gone through difficult times and we remember that the co-ops and the credit union movement in this province gave birth during the Thirties, during the dep ressed times of the 1930s. Mr.

Speaker, it is our view that we must do much more by way of encouraging and developing the co­ op movemer.t in Manitoba. The co-op movement is truly a movement that has arisen in We stern Canada. Mr. Speaker, I think it's important that we nourish the co-op movement; that we rec ognize, in addition to the private and to the public sector, there's an important third sector, and that's the co-operative movement. Community assets. We 'll be assisting non-pr ofit community organizations; create lasting assets and also improving employment. Forestry . Mr.

Speaker, one of the areas that was too long neglected was the field of forestry. For years and years gover nments, whether it was Liberal, Conservative or even the administration of which I served under, did not do what it should have in order to reforest ate, to ens• •re that depleted forestry resources were replaced. I an1 pleased, Mr. Speaker, that we are able to target those timber resou rces, to maintain the economic health of the forestry industry and thus, Mr. Speaker, the signing of the important forestry agreement with the Federal Government. Housing Urban Dev elopment.

We intend to continue to support and to assist Manitobans to obtain affordable housing and provide stimulus to employment in the housing industry. I think that can be best demons trated by the fact that in 1983 we were able to exceed the

Canada average by way of housing starts, 3-1, in this province. - (I nterjection) - And the honourable member, again, kind of scoffs. Mr. Speaker, you would think for once that an honourable member across the way could express some feeling of pride over the fact that the house build ers and residents of Manitoba were able to turn back five years of sluggishness in the housing industry, that we're able to lead Canada by way of increase in housing starts in this province. Provincial Capital Assets.

We intend to continue construction, renovate major capital projects, projects of a lasting value to Manitobans, to provide further stimulus, employment, in the construction industry. Youth, job opportunities, and this is an area of particular conc ern because it's one of the most difficult challenges that face us all across Canada, with the high levels of youth unemployment that range anywhere from 20 percent to 30 percent, at least, in various parts of Canada, wherever a young person resides.

I mentioned the frustration and despair earlier, I don't intend to repeat that, but it obviously is an area that must be of critical importance, and will be to this government, to provide employment, training opportunities, students, graduates, others, short-term, long-term projects in order to ensure that the youth of this province are able to receive the training and the skills, the development of their potential, so they can contribute their talents in the way that they see best. Development agreements. The twelfth sector that I would like to refer to.

We'll be working to formulate, through this, a concept to provide a tool for working with individual companies wishing to locate or to expand in Manitoba. Many of these target sectors are interrelated, may provide support for other sectors of the economy because our economy is interrelated and one sector certainly does not operate independent from the other. But together, in targeting these segments of our economy, we can develop a cohesive co-ordinated approach to long-term economic development in Manitoba.

They represent investments in Manitoba's future, some of which are repayable in the short-term, others will be repayable in the long-term, Mr. Speaker, but they will be developments that will benefit, not only this generation, but this generation's childr en and children's childr en. Mr.

Speaker, we know that a skilled workplace and new expanding markets are essential components of any economic strategy and, during the next few months, it Is the intention of my government to embark on new trade promotion programs that will particularly concentrate on those areas of the Manitoba economy that are important for the purp oses of the export trade area, from selective sectors within the Manitoba economy, agriculture being one of them. Mr.

Speaker, I was pleased last night that I had an opportunity to speak to the Chairman of the Hog Marketing Board at the reception at the Japanese Consulate, and he ind icated to me the mar ked incr ease insofar as trade pork products with Japan. That's the sort of trade, the sort of selected areas that we can, in fact, increase trade and benefit the farmers of this province, Indeed, they are benefitting from those deliberate policies. Second ly, Mr .

Sp eaker , my government will concentrate on impr oving trade for specific firms in a number of other sectors that have high export potential; 407 ensure that we seize and take advantage of those opp ortunit ies tha t exist for those firms and for Manitobans, in general. During the past few years our world and our environment has gone thr ough some very drastic changes. I mentioned technology and the challenges that face us as a result of technology and how we must, indeed, keep ahead of those trends and developments.

With the new technologies, the lives of Manitobans have also changed -their skills, their training, in too many instances, have become outdated. it's imp ortant for us to constantly review those programs that we provide to Manitobans, young Manitobans, to insure that which they are receiving, by way of instruction, meets the challeng e of those new tech nolo gies, those new circums tances in today's profits At points there is a sense of being caught, I know, and the feeling that we are, in some way or other, caught in a whirlwind not of our own making. But, Mr.

Speaker, we cannot stop the advance of technology and, indeed, we would not want to, I'm sure, anyone in this Chamber. What we must do, Mr. Speaker, is to wrestle the new technology to the ground, harness it so it can benefit all Manitobans, whether that technology can be a benefit in the workplace or in the fields of education. In order to keep pace with the changing world, my government will be introducing a new Information technology program to stimulate markets for technology advances affecting industry, education and the public sector.

Part of these new initiatives in the field of technology will include Cana d a's first ind ust ry, government education technology centres. Mr. Speaker, my government is taking an active role in harnessing all these new technology capacities and opportunities for the benefit of all Manitobans. One of the most significant areas where the technology development can be used is in the area of education in our com munity colleges. I'm sure hono urable members were impr essed with the announcement by the Min ister of education last week in that regard. We live, Mr.

Speaker, in a vast province, where Northern Manitobans can become easily isolated from the rest of the province. Post-secondary education is one example of where the North has been isolated for many years. But now, Mr. Sp eak er, my government Is employing new distance education techniques to deliver programs to Manitobans, no matter where they live. I think it's exciting, there's a new time for ed·.:cation in this province. My government, Mr. Speaker, is pioneering the use of this new technology, schools, so that all Manitobans may have the opportunity to job, to skill training.

Through the next few months there is going to be announcements pertaining to increase in computer assisted lea rning to provide more indiv idualized instruction. This means, Mr. Speaker, that students at Red Ri ver Communit y College will be using - (Interjection) - Well, Mr. Speaker, it demonstrates the lack of interest, it seems, on the part of the Member for Minnedosa in how the technology can be used to advance. This means, Mr. Speaker, that students at Red River Community College will be using -well, Mr.

Speaker, it demonstrates the lack of interest it seems on the part of the Memb er for Minnedosa in how the technology can be used to advance . . .- a $1. 2 million microcomputer training centre, while students attending

Thursday, 3 May, 1884 Assiniboine and Keewatin Community Colleges will be using smaller but similar facilities. In addition, Mr. Speaker - (Interjection) - Well I'm surprised. The Honourable Member for Morris says they can't be critical of that, that's point 1. We've sat here for three weeks, that's been a major concessi on, that is the first item that I' ve heard from honourable members across the way that they're not critical of, by way of initiatives on this side. By the way, it's part of the deficit, too, the Honourable Member for Morris might note. Mr.

Speaker, in addition, $200,000 has been provided to the Un iversity of Manitoba to redevelop undergr aduate courses, so that they may be offered to Manitobans in outlying areas through the new distance education technique. Manitobans living in the North in the remote areas will no longer have to leave their communi ties. There can be no fair opportunity to insure that all Manitobans receive comparable access to education as long as those Manitobans that live in remote communities have to leave those communities, at great expense to themselves and to their famil ies, in order to receive education.

With these developments it will no longer be necessary that Manitobans in remote no rthern com muni ties will have to leave their comm uni ties, their friends and their families, and sometimes their jobs, to obtain a post-secondary education. I think, Mr. Speaker, that probably is a very important milestone insofar as our residents of remote and northern communities. I'm sure the Honourable Member for The Pas and Rupertsland would certainly endorse that. Access to education, to the skills and the training that it offers, is an im portant element in my government's economic strategy. Investing in people, Mr.

Speaker, the abilities of people, the talents of people, insuring that individuals are given an opportunity to maxim ize their skills is a crucial element of my government 's long-term economic strategy and direction. We can talk and discuss all we want about forestry, mines and energy, as I have, but without ensuring that the people are here in order to utilize those resources, and to develop those resources, and work in those resources, and contribute the resources, Mr. Speaker, we will not in fact succeed as a province.

Well-trained, well-skilled labour force is not only critical to realizing economic potential for Manitoba, but it's crucial for the well-being of all Manito bans. Throughout the past year my government has also worked with those in the farm community to develop programs to aid agriculture in this province. We recognize that agriculture indeed is the cornerstone of Manitoba economy, and through various expanded Jobs Fund projects strengthen the relationship between the agricultural production, processing will be strengthened. In addition, Mr.

Speaker, our budgetary commitment to agriculture has increased by more than double, double the rate of inflation since 19 81, 1982, a clear indication that my government's commitment to the farming community to ensure that agriculture continues to be a vibrant, healthy component of the Manitoba economic development, an important segment of the total economic strategy. The recent growth, the financial strength of our livestock producers, I believe, Mr. Speaker, despite the cynics, is a dir ect result of the effect and the success 408 of the Beef and Hog Stabilization Programs.

This year the stability of the agricultural component will be bolstered by continued financial support for those initiatives. $48 million dollars has been allocated for the Manitoba Hog and Beef Stabilizatlon Programs and the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation. Strengthening agriculture in turn strengthens food processing, the transportation packing industr y. What does that mean for Manitobans, Mr. Speaker, as a whole? lt means jobs; jobs in the rural communities and cities of our province.

My government's commitment to long-term economic development for Manitoba and its future has and will continue to produce real material results for all Manitobans to share. Perhaps the best example of this commitment, our long-term economic development proposals, are the agreements that were announced by the Min ister of Energy and Mines dealing with the Northern State Power and the Aluminum Company of America. Mr. Speaker, instead of putting all our eggs in one basket, as did honourable members across the way, we looked around, we entered into a series of discussions with a number of companies.

My government made sure that we had agreements in hand before we made any announcements of deals to come, that we avoided the creation of any expectation that could not be realized, unlike I must say, quite frankly and quite candi dly, the expectation that honourable members across the way tried to generate in 1981, within months of the provincial election, agreements that were being taken for granted before they had been finanlized, an impression that was being deliberately left amongst Manitobans that the deals were sewn up and, "Don't Stop Us Now," I think was the slogan, wasn't it?

Don't stop us now because we got all these thin gs in place, said honourable members across the way, and we remember so very very well that theme. That was the theme of the Conservative Party's campaign in the November 1981 election. I must say I kind of enjoyed the theme, to be very candid with you. "Don't Stop Us Now." I think it was played to music, wasn't it? lt was played to music on the radio stations and the television stations in the province. "Don't Stop Us Now." Mr.

Speaker, Manitobans did stop them because of the severe damage that they were doing to the Province of Manitoba by way of their economic mismanagement under the leadership of the former Premier of this province. My government made sure that we had agreements in hand before announcements were made, and that we avoid the rising of any false expectation or hope as was the case before. Manitobans had been led down the garden path enough by the Conservatives across the way in respect to mega projects. Their hopes were dashed, in fact, Mr.

Speaker, sadly because hopes had been raised prematurely in the Province of Manitoba just months before the November 1981 election. In the Interest of fairness to Manitobans my government took a prudent path waiting until the "t's" had been crossed, "i's" dotted before announcements were made. In other words, Mr. Speaker, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Mr. Speaker, that letter of unde rstanding with Alcoa will immediately launch a $2 million a year study Into the feasibili ty of building a 200 tonne smelter for operation in 1990. But if the feasibility studies are

thu ....,. 3 ... ,. 1184 favourable Alcoa, of course, will sign a smelter pact with Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, it's only a feasibility study; it may proceed, it may not proceed. We attempted to make that very very clear to honourable members across the way. Manitoba however will pay, Mr . Speaker - and I think this is an important difference between our approach and their approach - the people of the Province of Manitoba will share 50 percent interest, approxima tely, in the equity of the smelter and, at the same time, the integrity of the Mani toba Hydro system will be maintained. Mr .

Speaker, someway or other they were going to slice up parts and pieces of the Manitoba Hydro system. The Hydro system in the Province of Manitoba is one integrated opera tion. You can't slice a little bit off here and leave the rest of the Hydro system in tact as a public opera tion, Mr . Speaker. In fact, the Minister of Energy and Mines even brought into this House, I believe, a document indicating that honourable members across the way are prepared to slice off another little piece for lnco. Mr.

Speaker, we, throughout, prior to the Novem ber 1981 election, expressed support indeed for the Alcan project as long as the Alcan project was environmentally sound; and secondly, we would insure the integrity of the Manitoba Hydro system in the Province of Manitoba, something they were not prepared to do. In addition, 350 megawatts of power will be sold annually to Alcoa for their smelting operation if it should proceed. The construction of the smelter will create some 2,000 direct jobs. Its operation could mean 600 permanent jobs if the plant should proceed. Mr. Speaker, if no - (Interjection) - Mr.

Spea ker, was some reference made about Americans. I must say, I've had a number of very fruitful, very important visits, a meeting with American officials south of the border. I have found them very reasonable. - (Interjection) - Yes, hard-headed but very reasonable, very sensible, very fair people to deal with. Mr.

Speaker, if honour able mem bers are trying to get some rise out of me in respect to our friends south of the border they will not succeed because, as far as I've been concerned, they've been reason able and fair throughout, and certainly in all my discussions I've been more than satisfied with their genuine desire to be good neighbors with Canadians. Mr.

Speaker, more impor tant there, being prepared in this particular case to be a partner in the economic development of the Province of Manit oba, not expecting to be exclusively the developer of any project, but being prepared to be a partner with the entire provincial commun ity. Perhaps, most importantly , Mr. Speake r, we have demo nstrated that Manitoba can negotiate large agreements for the private sector, and we can still retain a strong public interest without detracting from the agreement at all. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, the retention of Manitoba's interest in such agreements I think make those agreements much more attractive to the vast majority of Manitobans. Honour able members will recall in our theme in 1981 the importance of Manitobans sharing in the resource development of the Province of Ma nitoba, that Mani tobans ought to share in tha t resource development. I'm surprised at some of the comments from across the way because honourable members were prepared to contribute towards an equity share in 409 potash development out near McAu ley. Mr.

Speaker, if I recall correctly , honourable members on this side, when they sat where honour able members across the way are, applauded honour able members for accepting an equity interest in potash development near McAuley, Manitoba. In fact, Mr . Spe aker , Manitobans know and understand the value, the potential energy capacity in this province, and the impor tance of the contribution of Manitoba Hydro long-term development.

They know that, in fact, we own our own Hydro company and that with the utilization of our own Hydro company as a Crown Corporation we can provide a tremendous launching pad towards further economic development in Manitoba. I believe where we can earn money for Manitoba, it's future, we can develop, we can invest in Mani toba, and those inv est ments, those developments will be of a long-term and medium-term interest to Manitobans. Long-term economic planning development bears fruit. I think these projects, economic developers indicate that.

We've taken up that resp onsibil ity, we're going to continue to build today for Manitoba's future. Mr. Speake r, I also would like to just, at the same time, commend the efforts of the Minis ter of Energy and Mines for the work that he's done, and not under the best of circu mstances because I remember the former Leader of the Opposition shouting for the Minister of Energy 's resignation a year ago in this Cham ber. Mr. Speaker, I'm glad that I did not for a moment consider accepting the Leader of the Opposition's advice that the Minis ter of Energy be required to resign.

I say thank God I didn't accept his advice, Mr. Speaker, thank God, because this province is going to be health ier, and stronger , and better because of the initiative and work on the part of the Min ister of Energy and Mi nes, the Memb er for Transcona. Mr. Speaker, we had to be pretty careful, and I warned my honou rable mem bers on this side to not be too naive about advice they receive from honourable members across the way. If honourable members on this side think that honourable members are trying to do them some sort of favour by providing advice, just wash it out of your minds very very quickly.

The best example was that suggest ion that came from honourable members across the way. MR. L. SHERMAN: About the only advice requested you haven't taken in the last 10 months. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I want to say to the Honourable Member for Fort Garry I can't think of advice that we've accepted from honour able members, but maybe we have accepted some, because there may be some advice that we've accepted.

Sometimes though you don't get much by way of advice across the way, usually its harping criticism and whining and complaining but, once in a while, out of all that chaff there does come a few good pieces. Mr. Speak er, I want to tell honour able mem bers, I welcome honourable members to provide us with constructive advice, and ideas, and policies. You're going to find . MR. L. HYDE: You won't listen.

ThuradaJ, 3 May, 1984 HON. H. PAWLEY: Honour able Member for Portage la Prairie let me tell you you'll be surprised how prepared this government, this party is prepared to accept ideas and policy thrusts of a positive constructive nature from wherever they come, Mr. Speaker, because we're not going to be jealous as to partisan proposals. If you have some suggestions, make them, make them in your speech, but let's not give us "Animal Farm," seven and six, seven and six. Let's hear some lists of proposals from honourable members across the way. I want to just comment.

When I was first elected to this Chamber, 1969 to 1970, there were a numb er of members in your party who would stand up in their place, present very constructive speeches, provide some very constructiv e suggestions to the Government of the Day. Some of those we acted upon, Mr. Speaker. I must say, with all due regret, there was somewhat of a different bunch there in those years than presently and unfortunately inhabit the chairs across the way in the main.

Now I hope there is some change, because I think we can all benefit from the sharing of information, by recei ving advice, by implementing worthwhile suggestions. We'll be right there with you. so we'll be awaiting some constructive advice, but don't give us this sloganeering and rhetoric that we've been hearing so much about the last few days. I must say this. The Member for Virden, was it? - (Interjection) - I did, I did.

I found him to be fair, a genuine individual and he had his criticisms. but I say he never sat down without at least making some suggestions to honourable members across the way and usually th ose suggestions were not of a partisan, bickering nature. They were good, solid suggestions often coming out of his commun ity, sincere, and I would like to suggest that the example of the Honour able Member for Virden might be one that some of the honou rable members across the way might want to take up and foll ow. Long-term economic planning bears fruit of these projects. Economic ind icators testify to that.

Governments do have a responsibility , in my view, to take an active part, a leading role in economic development and planning, so that our dreams can become reality . We're prepared to take up - (Interjec tion) - Well, Mr. Speaker, I wish I hadn't raised the matter of the Honourable Member for Virden. I see I've generated some other controver sy, unintended. But, Mr.

Speaker, I would like that honou rable members would share some of the enthusia sm that honourable members on this side of the Chamber feel in the future of this province, for the deli berate development of strategies to ensure that we do impr ove the economic health of this province. Manitobans work together. Well, Mr.

Speaker, it might have helped us indeed with some of our economic work if the honour able mem ber across the way, when they were in govern ment led by the Member for Charleswood -i f he had resigned in 1980 or 19 79, so we could have got on with the task a little easier - quicker and a li�tle easier. We've embarked upon a path to recovery where long-term investment will secure for Manitoba a future for ourselves, for our neighbours, for our children. I think the best comment that I would like to refer to honourable members across the way and they couldn't SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 410 MA.

DEPUTY SPEAKER, P. Eyler: Order please, order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: I would like to note a comment which I think fully and properly describes this Budget that was introduced.

I'm happy to no te that the In vestment Dealers' Association of Canada has recognized Manitoba's potential and economic health and the Dealers' Association President described my gove rnment's Budget as, and I would quote to honou rable members across the way so they could follo w carefully the words of this disti nguished gentleman: ". . . as an excellent one and appropriate one for Manitoba at this point." He said that our approach was that of a careful and prudent administration. He went on and said that it was an approach that was worthy of one that could be followed by other administrations in Canada. Mr.

Speaker, when the President of the Investment Dealers' Association was asked, what about the reaction of the Conservatives? Do you know what his response was? Oh, that was just a conditio ned reflex on the part of a political party in opposition.

I am pleased that an independent, objective observer - certainly no Socialist, certainly no Bolshevik, certainly no Marxist, as the Honourable Member for Charle swood would be prone to describe and maybe he will describe him as a Marxist - fairly and properly described this Budget, fairly and properly described the comments by those that were in opposition to this Budget. We are prepared to seize opportuni ties in Manitoba as they arise and we'll be seizing other opportunities. Let me advise honourable members that we have much more work to do.

We've only started to do the work of economic development and achievement and we have much more, Mr. Speaker, that we will be unfolding and we'll be dealing with in the months that lie ahead. Honourable members may be rest assured of that because we have a strategy, we have a direction, we have a plan of action. Long-term investment in our future means jobs. lt means economic security, securing funds to mainta in, to preserve, to enhance public services. When the economy is healthy, Mr. Speaker, the health and well­ being of Manitobans is more secure and is freer. Mr.

Speaker, as I indi cated earlier, unempl oyment levels are unacceptably high, but we intend to continue our efforts. Honour able members across the way would tend to use the recess ion, the difficulties that confront us. as excuses for inaction. We do not. We accept the times as ones for challenge. We accept these times as not a time for inertia on the part of govern ment, but as a time for movement, for a time for action, a time for positive development. Mr. Speaker, this is not a time for cynicism on the part of political parties. lt's a time for optimism and for hope. Mr.

Speake r, it's not a time for weakness. it's a time for courage and for determination, Mr. Speaker. it's not a time for just carping, political bickering day after day. it's a tim e for positive, constructive suggestions, for we all can benefit from positive, construc tive suggestions. lt is not a time, Mr. Speaker, for negativism. it's a time for positive steps. Mr. Speaker, I didn't think that - and I'm not pointing or looking at anyone in particular when I talk about

Thurtday, 3 May, 1984 cymc1sm or negativism or despair or negativism - I think honourable members across the way will know where the shoes fit, they wear them. Mr. Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to take this opportunity to make a few comments in respect to the Western Premiers' Conference that will be taking place next week in Kelowna, British Columbia. The important agenda item of course will be the economy. We'll be discussing the current economic situation, the outlook for the balance of this year, job creation, longer term economic development projects.

We're also going to be reviewing the state of federal-provincial relations. The main theme that Manitoba will be stressing at the Western Premiers' Conference is the need for greater co-ope ration, consultation among the provinces, the federal, the local governments, the private sector, in pursuing new economic development thrusts. This theme I know is not new, but surely it is very tim ely. As we stressed in our Throne Speech, our Budget, we feel that improved co-operation is a prerequisite for sustained recovery, long-term eco nomic development.

That applies not only in Manitoba but across the west and throughout Canada as a whole. lt's been 11 years, in fact, since the Eco nomic Opportunities Conference was held in Calgary in July of 1973, and some progress has been made but on the other hand, too little progress has actually been made towards the objectives that were established by that conference. I think the impact of the recess ion has demonstrated, once again, the need for greater diversification in the economies of individual provinces, in regions, in the country as a whole, a shared goal of the western provinces for over a decade.

Now 11 years after that Calgary conference, we're seeking another renewal of interest. The question concerns the national level. In some ways that is encouraging. However, much of the emphasis has been on proposals for institutional refo rms; reforms which, it Is argued, would give the west a stronger voice in nationa l institutions and agencies. That can be important but, more important, we think, is regular ef fective input by provincial governments in national and regional economic and fiscal polic y-ma king, alongside the Federal Government at the appropriate times and opportunities.

At last year's West ern Premiers' Conference at Swift Current, all four Premiers agreed on the Importance of ensuring greater federal-provincial co-oper ation. Our communique stated, and I read, "All governments must work towards ensuring that their economic policies are complementary and mutually reinforcing. The Premiers stressed that provinces have a significant economic respon sibil ity, imp ortant contribution to make to national economic manageme nt." I'm confident that we can affirm that kind of position in Kelowna this year.

I'm also hopeful that we can agree to work more closely together to achieve common economic development objectives. Obviously there will be, because of different circu mstances from province to province - (Interjection) - and different political philosophies, yes, as referred to by the Honourable Memb er for Minn edosa - there will be areas of disagreement, there will be areas where we will simply have to agree to disagree. But it would be unrealistic, Mr.

Speaker, for example, to expect full agreement on questions dea ling with budgetary poli cy, labour 411 management relat ions, user fees, extra billing, premiums in the health care field, but this is nothing new at a conference of this kind. There will be a great number of areas where we can come to agreement, however, and I'm sure we'll all be working hard to do so. At the same time, I think we must also face the question of interprovincial economic competition, and there are many who have identified this as a major problem.

Though it was discussed dur ing the constitutional review in 1980, it hasn't been reviewed jointly in a detailed way by the western provinces for several years. Obviously, some areas of interpr ovincial competition is both natural and healthy, but there are serious questions about how far it can go before we get into a beggar-y our-neighbour kind of situation which benefits no one. I would like to, just for a moment, comment in respect to that. The previous administration properly rejected, this administration has rejected , policies that would build walls from province to province.

Unfortu nately, we are see ing the establishment of some of that now in the Pr ovince of Saskatchewan where they're preve nting the Manitoba road-building companies from tendering and obtaining work in the Province of Saskatchewan. That will be one of the areas, Mr. Speaker, that I intend to deal with and to discuss at the Western Premiers' Conference. On the other hand, we recognize that a lot of arguments in favour of more open Canadian economic union ... A MEMBER: Why don't you build some roads here and then they won't have to go over there? HON. H. PAWLEY: . . . are little more, Mr.

Speaker, than thinly disguised defences of the status quo; that is, economic domination by Bay Street, St. James Street. I think it would be helpful, too, if the western provinces were to discuss our overall economic development priorities to determine where we can share information and reinforce each other's objectives within the context of a co-ordinated national development thrust. Manitoba was the first province to sign an ERDA Agreement with the Federal Go vernment. Saskatchewan soon followed, and we expect Alberta, and perhaps B.C. to do so later this year.

Many of our priorities under these agreements appear to be similar, and others are certainly complementa ry. Since these agreements involve a great deal of parallel delivery with the Federal Government, delivering some programs in provinces, it is all the more important that provincial governments consult with each other, their plans, their experiences. We have already had a good exchange of information at the official level; I think we can build on that in Kelowna. We will also be discussing other common concerns, such as, international trade, co-operat ion. Mr.

Speaker, I intend to be providing a further report to this House upon my re turn from the Conference, Wednesday, Thur sday of next week. So, Mr. Speaker, in conclusion, again, disappointment in respect to the level of contribution offered by honourable members across the way. There has been

Thu.-.dar, 3 May, 1984 a great deal of wind; a great deal of rhetoric; little by way of substance from honour able mem bers across the way; a lot of negative comment; very little by way of positive contribution as to what honourable members across the way would do by way of economic and social development thrust. But, Mr. Speaker, I suppose that is to be antici pated from honourable members across the way. We intend to continue doing what we are doing, building a stronger Manitoba today, and also ensuring that it's a stronger Manitoba for the future, not just for this generat ion but for future generations. MR.

SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I'm happy to participate in the annual Budget Debate. I hadn't realized that I would be speaking immediately after the First Minis ter but, having listened to the greater part of his speech, and not being one who ever shies away from rebuttal, I must say that I found very little that needs rebutting because very little that he said had any substance to it.

I thought that he would know better, after some experience in this House, for trying to inflict upon this House and the people of Manitoba that peculiar and quaint kind of revisionist history so beloved by the left, when he was talking about major projects which were, in most cases, signed and sealed when his incom petent government came into office, and when he presumed to talk about how our government had raised expectat ions and then was una ble to fullfil those expectations. Mr.

Speaker. we signed the agreements; the electorate in their wisdom left it to the NDP Government to fullfil the agreements. and they dr opped every ball that was handed to them. They blew everyt hing that was handed to them; they blew the potash agreement; they blew the Alcan agreement; they blew the Western Grid agreement and, Mr. Speaker, as I will say a little later on, that agreement will probably stay blown until this government's blown out of office, and then the Western Grid agreement can be resumed.

I notice that the First Minis ter is taking his seat now, having scuttled out of the House with his tail between his legs. I notice that the First Mi