Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 18 (29th Legislature, 5th Session)

29-5-18

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XX No. 18 10:00 a.m., Friday, March 9th, 1973. Fifth Session, 29th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans - Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

Electoral Division Name Political Address Postal Affiliation Code ARTHUR J. Douglas Watt P.C. Reston, Man. ROM lXO ASSINIBOIA Steve Patrick Lib. 10 Red Robin Pl., Winnipeg R3J 3L8 BI RTLE-RUSSELL Harry E. Graham P.C. Binscarth, Man. ROJ OGO BRANDON EAST Hon. Leonard S. Evans NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 BRANDON WEST Edward McGILL P.C. 2228 Princess Ave., Brandon R7B OH9 BURROWS Hon. Ben Hanuschak NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 CHAR LESWOO D Arthur Moug P.C. 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg R3R 1 L5 CHURCHILL VACANT CRESCENTWOOD Cy Gonick NOP 1 140 Grosvenor Ave., Winnipeg R3M ONS DAUPHIN Hon.

Peter Burtniak NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 ELMWOOD Hon. Russell J. Doern NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 EMERSON Gabriel Girard P.C. 25 Lamond Blvd., Winnipeg R2J 1Y1 FLIN FLON Thomas Barrow NOP Cranberry Portage, Man. ROB OHO FORT GARRY L.R. (Bud) Sherman P.C. 86 Niagara St., Winnipeg R3N OT9 FORT ROUGE Mrs. Inez Trueman P.C. 179 Oxford St., Winnipeg R3M 3H8 GIMLI John C. Gottfried NOP 44 - 3rd Ave., Gimli, Man. AOC lBO GLADSTONE James R. Ferguson P.C. Gladstone, Man. ROJ OTO INKSTER Hon. Sidney Green, Q.C. NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C DVB KILDONAN Hon.

Peter Fox NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C DVB LAC DU BONNET Hon. Sam Uskiw NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 LAKESIDE Harry J. Enns P.C. Woodlands, Man. AOC 3HO LA VEREN DRYE Leonard A. Barkman Lib. Box 130, Steinbach, Man. ROA 2AO LOGAN William Jenkins NOP 1294 Erin St., Winnipeg R3E 2S6 MINNEDOSA David Blake P.C. Minnedosa, Man. ROJ 1 EO MORRIS Warner H. Jorgenson P.C. Morris, Man. ROG lKO OSBORNE Ian Turnbull NOP 284 Wildwood Pk., Winnipeg R3T OE5 PEMBINA George Henderson P.C. Manitou, Man. ROG lGO POINT DOUGLAS Donald Malinowski NOP 361 Burrows Ave., Winnipeg R2W 1Z9 PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE Gordon E.

Johnston Lib. 506 St. George Ave., Portage la Prairie, Man. RlN O"T;5 RADISSON Harry Shafransky NOP 4 Maplehurst Rd., Winnipeg R2J 1W8 RHINELAND Jacob M. Froese s.c. Box 40, Winkler, Man. ROG 2XO RIEL Donald W. Craik P.C. 2 River Lane, Winnipeg R2M 3Y8 RIVER HEIGHTS Sidney Spivak, 0.C. P.C. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C DVB ROBLIN J. Wally McKenzie P.C. Inglis, Man. ROJ OXO ROCK LAKE Henry J. Einarson P.C. Glenboro, Man. ROK OXO ROSSMERE Hon. Ed. Schreyer NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C DVB RUPERTSLAND Jean Allard Ind. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C DVB ST. BONIFACE Hon. Laurent L.

Desjardins NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C DVB ST. GEORGE Bill Uruski NOP Box 580, Arborg, Man. AOC DAO ST. JAMES Hon. A.H. Mackling, QC. NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 ST. JOHNS Saul Cherniack, Q.C. NOP 333 St. John's Ave., Winnipeg R2W 1H2 ST. MATTHEWS Wally Johannson NOP 418 Home St., Winnipeg R3G 1X4 ST. VITAL D.J. Walding NOP 31 Loch invar Ave., Winnipeg R2J 1R3 STE. ROSE A.A. (Pete) Adam NOP Ste. Rose du Lac, Man. ROLlSO SELKIRK Hon. Howard Pawley NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 SEVEN OAKS Hon. Saul A. Miller NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C DVB SOUR IS Kl LLARNEY Earl McKellar P.C.

Nesbitt, Man. ROK lPO SPRINGFIELD Hon. Rene E. Toupin NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C DVB STURGEON CREEK J. Frank Johnston P.C. 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg R3J 2G3 SWAN RIVER James H. Bilton P.C. Swan River, Man. ROL 1ZO THE PAS Hon. Ron McBryde NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C DVB THOMPSON Joseph P. Borowski Ind. NOP La Sal le, Man. ROG lBO TRANSCONA Hon. Russell Paulley NOP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8 VIRDEN Morris McGregor P.C. Kenton, Man. ROM OZO WELLINGTON Philip M.

Petursson NOP 681 Banning St., Winnipeg R3G 2G3 WINNIPEG CENTRE J.R. (Bud) Boyce NOP 777 Winnipeg Ave., Winnipeg R3E OR5 WOLSELEY 1.H. Asper Lib. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg R3C OV8

THE LE G ISLATiVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10:00 a. m. , Fr iday, March 9, 1973 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODU CTION OF GUESTS 427 MR. SPE AKER: Be fore we procee d, I should like to direct the attention of the honour ab le members to the gallery, where we have 75 students of Grade 9 standing of the St. Norbert School. These students are under the dire ction of Mr. Grimard, Mr . Lemsi ng and Sister Patricia. This school is located in the cons tituency of the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. On behalf of all the honourable members of the Legislativ e Assembly, I welco me you here · today.

PRESE NTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER : Pre senting Petitions; Reading and Recei ving Petitions. MR. CL ERK: The petition of Me nnonite Hospital Societ y Concordia praying for the passi ng of

an Act to amend

an Act to inc orporate Mennonite Hospital Society Concordia. MR. SPEAKER: Presen ting Reports by Standing and Special Co mmittees ; Mi nisterial Statements and Tabl ing of Reports . The Honourable Mi nister of Mi nes and Reso urces. MINISTERIAL STATEME NTS AND TA BLING OF RE PORTS HON. SIDNEY GRE EN, Q. C. (M inister of Mi nes, Re sources and En vi ronmental Manage ment)(Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the annual report of the Dep artment of Min es, Resources and Envi ronmental Management. There will be copie s distributed. MR. SPE AKER: Any other Mi nisterial Statements or Tabli ng of Repor ts ?

Notices of Motion: Introduction of Bills: Or al Ques tions. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR S. INE Z TRUEMAN (F ort Ro uge): Mr . Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Mi nister of Health and Social Deve lopment. I note that the program for cove rage of pre scrip tion drugs for the elderly is not in the Es timates. Does this mean that the program will not be proceeded with this coming year ? HON REN E E. TOUPIN (M inister of Health & Social Devel opment)( Springfie ld): Mr .

Speaker, the amount for the coverage of the 80 percent of prescri ption drugs for those 65 and over, over and above the initial $50 . 00 per person, is included within the Es timates. The honourable member just didn't notice it, but it will be pointed out during the Est imates. Mr . Speaker, while I'm on my feet I would like to clarify an answer that I gave yesterday to the Leader of the Liberal Party.

My leader saw through the question and answered; it was clarif ied in the press, but for the benefit of honourable members of this Hous e there is no need for legis lation in regards to the waivin g of premiums for senior ci tizens , this wil l be done by regulations. MRS • . TRUEMAN: I have a further que stion for the same Mi nister. Has the $1 0 milli on for nurs ing home care that's been removed from the social allowances for this year been placed within Ma nitoba Hospital Services Commissi on Estimates ? MR. TOUPIN: Mr .

Speake r, the co verage for the approxi mately 62 percen t of those in nursi ng homes that are wards of the province in this current fiscal year were incl uded under the Es timates of the Department of Health and Social Deve lopment. In the next fiscal year that we're now consid ering, this is now included within the Estimates of the He alth Services Com miss ion. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Firs t Mi nister. HON, EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier and Mi nister of Finance)(R ossmere): Mr.

Speaker, just on a procedural point, it seems to me, Si r, that ques tions that seek information as to the format of the Es timates of current expenditures proposed, etc. , are matters which do not prope rly come within the time of the oral question period before Orders of the Day. Now I say that, Sir, without any great ce rtainty as to what Beauchesne indica tes on that precis e point , but that's my very definite understanding of practice.

428 Ma rch 9, 1973 ORAL QUE STION PER IOD MR. SPE AKER: The question is well taken. The Honourable Member for Morri s. 1\lR. WARNER H. JORGE NSON (Morris): Mr . Spe aker.

You know , the First Mi nis ter perhaps is right if one could have the assura nce that the Es timates of that particular depa rt ment were goin g to be brought before the House during the course of this session, and failing that, of course , I think the question is quite a proper one; whether or not the Mi ni ster ca re s to answer it is another ma tte r, but the question is certainl y a proper one notwithstanding the protests of the First Mi nis ter. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I did not im ply that my honourable friends oppos ite had improper designs, although that may be the case from time to time , I am sure.

The assurance, Sir, that the Es tima tes of the department would be brought forward during this session is one that is very ea sy to give. MR. JORGENSON: . • . suggested that I had the feeling that our questions were im proper. What I me ant by "proper questions ", one that is proper ins ofar as our rules are con cerned, one that is a perfectly legitima te question to ask on Orders of the Day. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Educa tion. BON . BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education )(Burrows): Mr.

Chairman, yesterday the Honourable Lea der of the Liberal Pa rty asked me a question in my capac ity as Chairman of Ma nagement Com mittee with respect to the question of hotel accomm odation for civil serv ants, and my reply was that it was compiled on the basis of experience and I did not reply to that question in a facetious mann er; I meant exactly that, on the basis of our experience , of the experience of our staff, and thus determini ng the rates charged and so forth.

And that was exactly the way in which this information was obtained, by canvassing all departments to deter mi ne the names of the hotels most frequently patro nized by gove rnment employees, and this information is provided, Mr. Speaker, merel y as a guide; it's provided as a guide to gi vc the staff som e indica tion of the best rates that are available in the various parts of the province or other cities of Ca nada.

Now subsequently, the hotels which were not patronized to any extent, or at all , by any of the staff, contacted us and indica ted what their rate s are and that they'd be happy to do business with us , so their names were added to the list , and this list is being cqntinuou sly revised and I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that it provides a very very useful servic e to the departmental employees in enabling them to determin e what the best rates are in the various localities. Some time ago, Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Membe r for Sturgeon Creek asked me a . question with respect to paying royalty fees for reprod uct ion rights of educational TV programs. Now, the ma tter of a us e of school broadcasts is a rather involved one. The Council of Min- . isters of Educa tion of Canada has this ma tter under study and there are to be discussions held very shortly with the CBC and it's expected that these discussi ons may make it poss ible to resolv e the problems whi ch have recently developed. But es sentially, Mr.

Speaker, the prob lem is the proper payment of residual fees to all those who are entitled to them for school broadcasts, and for that ma tter for other programs that are usea ble in schools. The CBC sold the reproduction rights to a private concern for all its programs except school broadcasts. By mis take , two school broadcasts were included in the package , but have since been remov ed, and it's under stood that action to recover costs for the re-use of school broa dcasts has been discon tinued.

CBC has indic ated that it is not proper for school broadcasts to be taped for di stribution to schools and to pupils , and because this ma tter is of concern to all provinces it will be given ca reful study and all possible steps will be taken to facilit ate the use of school broadcasts by schools. · MR. SPE AKE R: The Honourable Member for Fort Ro uge. MRS, TRUEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Mi nister of Fi nance.

Is the nette d cash su rplus of $8 mi llion under the Ma nitoba Hospital Services Pl an to be returned to the Gener al Revenue s or will it be applied to next year's Es timates of that departme nt ? · MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Fi rst Mi nister. MR. SCHREY ER : Well, Mr. Speaker, I will take that as notice. Mr. Speaker, while I'm on my feet I would like to reply to a question asked by the Hon ourable Mem ber for Wolseley the other day. He asked for a financial report on CF I relative to 1971 submitted to the Rec eiver by Touche , Ross and Com pa ny.

I can indica te by way of reply that the Receiv er files regular reports with the courts and this particular report in question was

March 9, 1973 429 ORAL QUE STION PERIOD (MR. SCHREYER cont'd. ) . . • • • filed with the courts and therefore is a matter of public record and is available , presumably in the normal way, and that being so I believe my honoul' able friend has access to the report if he desires. Also, the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell asked the other day as to whether there were problems anticipated relative to trans portation on Cr oss Lake under. ice conditions as a result of the carrying out of the Lake Winnipeg regulation control works .

The reply I have here for my honourable friend, from Manitoba Hydro, is to the effect that the studies that have been conducted would indicate that there wiU be small fluctuations in lake lev els which will have a negligible effect on the ice pattern. Accordingly it is not anticipated that there will be fluctuations of greater magnitude and of a kind that will have an adverse effect on lake tran sportation requirements.

There is of course, my honourable friend should know, the construction of a permanent cross ing of the Nelson River right at the inlet into Cross Lake which will provide for the most safe and permanent kind of trans portation crossing of that body of water, that is of course the deck that will be built on top of the power house control structure. I hope this answers my honourable friend's question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GABRIE L Gffi.ARD (Em erson): I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Education.

I wonder if he could explain why it is that the Rolling Riv er School Division was informed that the general mill rate this year would be 6. 7 mill s and the rest of Manitoba wasn't. MR. HANUSCHAK: Informed by whom ? MR. GIRARD: Well, Mr. Speaker, I ca n't tell you just exactly who might have informed them. However, I submit that their budget was planned on that information . • . MR. SPEAKER: The honourable gentleman is debating that question. Wquld he ask the question ? MR. GIRARD� Well, Mr . Speaker, in all due respect I am trying to answer the question asked me by the Minister. MR. SPEAKER: Ord er, please.

The Honourable Member for Br andon West. MR. ED WARD McGILL (B randon West): " Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honour able the Minister of Education, and it relates to the policy of the Bra ndon school division in respect to students with high acad emic achievement at the high sc hool leve l who, under a policy of fairly long standing, have been permitted to leave school ear ly in June so that the teachers could not only award their achievement but also concentrate on those students who were less advanced in their st udies. And my question, Mr.

Speak er, is to the Minister, and I wish to ask him if he has by letter overruled the practice adopted by the Br andon school division and insisted at the ministerial level that the students remain in school until the end of June. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSC HAK: Mr . Speaker, the law reads in reverse; the school diVisions are subject to our law, not we to a regulation passed by or approved of by a sc hool division. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. · I'm not certain that Hansa rd or I heard what was being said with all the interruptions.

Would the Honourable Minister repeat? MR. HANUSC HAK: I'd be happy to repeat, Mr. Speaker. I said, in reply to the honour able member, that the law reads in reverse; the school divisions are subject to a law approved by this Legislature and not we of the Department of Education being subject to any decision of a school division or any of their staff. MR. SPEAKER: The Member for Br andon West - a supplementary. MR. McGILL: Yes. Mr .

Speaker, in the Minister having taken this position, could I take from that that he feels that it is not a proper procedure to reward academic achievement in this manner and to provide for additional . . • ? MR. SPEAKER: The question is argumentative. The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Ar thur) : Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the First Minister.

I wonder if the First Minister could indicate to the House what position the Govern ment of Manitoba has taken on redistri bution of the electoral boundaries for the Federal rep resentation in the House of Commons , and if so, whatever decision they have made , will there be representation at the hearings that are pre sently being held throughout the Pro vince of Manitoba ?

430 March 9, 1973 ORAL QUE STION PERIOD MR. SCHREYER: We ll, Mr. Speaker , the matter is one under federal jurisdiction. It does have a bearing , howev er, on the extent to which this part of the country is rep resented in the federal Parli ament. I have written a letter to the Prime Mi nister indicating concern at the fact that the formula upon which representation in the Pa rli ament of Ca nada is based is not being universally followed, and that therefore there is need for a rethinking of the formula and a redrawing of the formu la.

I have to .date not received a reply, but when I do so I may hav e more infor mation for my honourable friend. · MR. WATT : I want to thank the Mi nister for his answer. A supplementary question. I ould like to ask the Minister if the governmen t supports the municipalities who are organiz ing to protest these hearings, the fact that rural Ma nitoba has lost two seats In the House of Co m mons. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, the number of seats in the Par liament of Ca nada is something that has to be determined by formula.

The problem is tha t the formula is not applied consistently as between the various regions of Ca nada. Having said that, I do not want to giv e the Impre ss ion that there should be support for representations that would cause a gross deviation from the princi ple of representation by population. MR. WATT: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question . Does the First Mi nist er agree with the statements made by the New Demo cratic Party in Ottawa in 1964 , that it was time that the House of Commons got rid of the rural domination and arrogance in the House of Commons in Ca nada. MR. SCHREY ER : Mr.

Speaker, I don't know what year my honourable friend is referrin g to but it certainly is not post 1965 because, Mr . Speaker, I sat in parlia ment as a repre sent ativ e of a rural area of Ma nitoba and was proud to do so, and will be quite prepared to debate with my honourable friend in any rural part of Ma nitoba whatsoever as to the principle of proper repre sentation in a parlia mentary democracy. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Em erson. MR. GIRARD: Ye s, Mr . Speaker, I'd like to direct my question to the Mi nister of Educa tion in view of the answer to his previous question.

Ea rly exemptions for students in Ma nitoba from Gr ades 7 to 12 have been a practice over the last few years. Is he suggesting by his answer that that was an illegal pract ice ? MR. SPEAKER: The question is again arg umentative. The Honourable Mi nister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Speaker, as the Honourable Me mber for Emerson undoubtedly well knows , he and I being members of the same prof es sion, there are regulations pas sed pursua nt to the Public Schools Act and regulations dealing with the question of closing of schools at year- end, and the same regulations apply to all schools in all par ts of the provin ce. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON (Gl adstone): Mr. Speaker , I' d like to address my question to the Mi nister of Education also. Because of rural depopulation some small schools will be forced to drop educational progr ams.

Will special consi deration over foundation grants be prov ided to these schools or school divis ions ? MR. HANUSCHAK: It has always been the policy of this gove rnment and will continue to be so, to provide the most meaningful and best quality education program in all schools in Ma nitoba at all time s. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Mi nncdosa. MR. DAVID R. BL AKE (M innedosa) : Th ank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is also directed to the Mi nister of Education.

Could he inform the House if the claim to repay some forty some thousand dollars by the Rollin g Riv er School Div ision, by the Department to the Ro ll ing River School Division, was this made as a result of an error made by the officials or' the Department of Education ? MR. HANUSCHAK: No , Mr . Speaker. MR. BLAKE: A supplement ary, Mr. Speake r. Would it therefore be resul ting from an error made by the school board administr ation st aff ? MR. HANUSC HAK: An error made by the school division, Mr. Speaker. The Depart ment of Education deals with school divisi ons not with any individuals of any division. MR.

SPE AKER: The Honourable Fi rst Mi nister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the other day the Honourable the Member for Rupertsla nd

March 9, 1973 431 ORAL QUE STION PERIOD (MR. SCHREYER cont'd. ) . . • . • asked a question relative to the existence of a develop ment line, as he put it, at the community of Cr oss Lake in northern Manitoba. I can advise my honourable friend that the development line in question is established at elev ation 690, It is a developme nt line which is intended to have no other practical limitation or effect other than to be a guideline to that community as to the level below which it would be inadvisable to construct any permanent structures. .

In ord er to guard against damage due to flooding with a probabi lity of once in 1 , 000 years frequency, and, Sir, when we come into orders of probability of that kind then it is of course difficult for the layman to comprehend the prac ticability of that. In any case , let me put it clearly on the record the purpose of that particular elevation guideline is to indic ate that on the basis of calculations construction above that deve lopment line should be sa fe from any flooding with the exception of such floods as occur with the frequency of once in 1, 000 years.

I can also advise the Member for Rupertsland , who had asked earlier, that as a re sult of Lake Win nipeg regulation the extent of any deviation in the maximummonthly median ele vation at Cross Lake will be three inches. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK , Q. C. (Lea der of the Opposition)(River He ights): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. Has any agreement yet been reached with Abitibi over the provincial cutting rights? MR. GREEN: I don't believe so, Mr. Speak er. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Lea der of the Opposition. _ MR.

SPIVAK: Yes, my question is to the Minister of Mines and Natur al Ues ources. wonder if he can indicate to the House when the present agreement expires. \ MR. GREEN: I don't recall the date , Mr. Speaker, but I am willing to take it as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourabl e Member for Souris-Killarney. MR. EARL McKE LL AR (Souris-Kill arney): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Min ister of Ed ucation and I refer to your decision at Ninette. Is it the intention of the Minister of Education to overrule the decisions of the school division boards in the future ? MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Speaker, at no time have I ever overruled a decision of a school board, any decis ions that it was empowered to make. And that certainly did not happen in this instance. MR. McKE LL AR: Mr. Speaker , I'd like to ask a supplementary question. Does he real ize that one trustee resigned over the decision he made at Ninette ? MR. SPEAK ER: Not pertinent. to the rules of this House. The H:mourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS (La keside) : Mr . Speak er, I direct a question at the Ho nourable the Minister of Edu cation.

By virtue of that last reply is he now prepared to act on the several times repeated request by the Lakes hore Division to commence construction of the school at Lundar ? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. ENN S: Answer ? None ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McG ILL: Mr. Speaker, my question's to the Honourable the Minister of Educ ation. In respect to the exemption policy in effect at Brandon is he prepared to allow this policy to proceed this year pending a review of the whole question ? MR. HANUSCHAK: The policy allowed under the regulations will continue this year. MR.

SPE AKER : The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, for clar ification from an answer the Honourable the Minister of Ed ucation earlier gave to the House, is transportation the responsi bility of the Minister or the school divisions ? MR. HANUSCHAK: Well, Mr.

Speaker, there is legislation, provincial legislation, and regulations governing transportati on, but insofar as the actual physical provision of transpor tation that certainly is the responsibility of the school division for which the school division receives a grant on a per pupil basis up to a max imum of $175. 00 per student. MR. McKENZIE: Mr . Speaker, I have another question for the Honoorable the Minister of Education.

How many thousands of dollars in round figures could have been used for the . education, or are used in Manitoba if the government had seen fit to scrap their adverti sing program regarding the school tax rebate ?

432 March 9, 1973 ORAL QUEST ION PE RIOD MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREY ER: ... 57 on your direct mailing. That was money wasted too if you want to call it a waste . MR • . SPEAKER: Order, please . Order . The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . HON . SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Mr . Speaker: I wish to give an answer to a question put to me a few days ago and again yesterday b;v the Member· for Rock Lake, on whether or not the Veterinary Services Commission has given a decision as to the location of a Veterinary Services Clinic in Cypress River .

The decision of the commis sion is negative on that request . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GIRARD: Ye s, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to direct this one to the Minister of Ed uc ation. Will there be changes in the OEC grant which is now one grant for every five hund red, or I mean will there be any changes in the now allocation of OEC grants? MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure the honourable member well knows this is a matter of government policy. MR. GIRARD: Mr .

Speak er, in view of the necessity of school divisions to provide their requirements to municipalities on the 15th of March, how soon will school div isions be informed as to changes of grants for this year, which is retroactive to January 1st by the way. MR. HANUSCHAK: In sufficient time, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (F ort Garry): On a point of order . MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, if I may, just for the record. In my e?q>ression "in sufficient time" those are three words, not two. I . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr .

Speaker, on a point of ord er, I wonder if it would be possible to get an answer to that question earlier asked by the Honourable Member for MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. That is not a point of order. MR. SHERMAN: Well the point of ord er , Mr. Speaker . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. JACOB M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Speaker, I have two questions that I would like to direct to the Minister of Ed ucation. -- (Interjection)-- No, not as far as I'm conce rned.

The question is, are correspondence courses available to all students requesting same in the province ? MR. HANUSCHAK: Ye s, Mr. Speaker. MR. FROESE : The other question is: what is the department's pra.ctice for students requesting leaving school prior to legal school leaving age? MR. HANUSCHAK: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, requesting . . . ? Would the honour able member repeat his question ? MR. FROESE : Yes , the question is: what is the department's practice re students requesting leaving sch ool prior to the school leaving age? MR.

HANUSCHAK: The honourable member has asked me a question, I believe it's spelled out either in the Act or the legislation. I'l l take the question as notice. There is provision for early withdrawal from school on certain conditions. I can give the honourable member an accurate answer at a later time. A ME MBER: When it's hopeless like McKenzie. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Kill arney. MR. McKE LLAR: Mr. Speaker, I' d like to direct a question to the Minister of Munici pal Affairs. Would the Minister inform the House whether Mr.

Dutton, General Manager of Auto pac , is going to New Orleans , Louisiana to make a speech on no-fault insurance . . . MR. SPE AKE R: Order, please. The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. Order, please. HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Minister of Municipal Affairs)( Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to announce that because of the very high interest in the Manitoba plan in the United States, that Mr. Dutton has been approached by officials of state governments and otherwise in New Orleans, is going to New Orleans to speak on the plan here at their expense, not Man itoba' s expense.

!--- -- March 9, 1973 ORAL QUESTI O N PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb�r for Emerson. Order, please. Would the Honourable Member for Radisson please maintain order? The Honourable Member for Emerson. Order, please. 433 MR. GIRARD: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address my question to the Minister of Education. Will the students now registered in the IMP ACTE Program qualify for certifica tion at the end of this term ? A MEMBER: Do you like the program? MR. GIRARD: I don't know yet. MR. HANUSCHAK: Certainly, Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member knows that this is a continuing program and there will be some who may qualify, some who may not. MR. GIRARD: The type of certifica te given, Mr. Speaker, will be the same type of certific ate as the . • . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I do believ e that some of these questions could much better be answered during the Estimates on that particular department. I think we've had a good half hour of all education questions. We 've pretty well covered the waterfront. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. GIRARD: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order, is this suggesting that we will not be able to ask questions of education now? MR. SPEAKER: Ord er, please. I was only suggesting that we are belabouring the point in respect to education when we still haven't come to the Estimates and there shall be ample opportunity to do some of this at that time. They are not pressing questions that will not take time. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

Questions asked on the Order Paper, your responsibilitie s are to determine whether or not they conform with the Rules of the House as to which is a proper or improper question to be asked on the Orders of the Day. The length or the period of time during which those questions are asked is not laid down in our rules, Sir, and with respect I suggest that if there is to be a series of questions asked to a particular Minister, then as long as those questions are in order they should be allowed to be asked. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Fi rst Minister. MR.

SCHREYER: Speaking to the point raised by the Honourable the Member for Morrfs, technically speaking, Mr. Speaker, it's true that the question, a whole series of questions on one given subject matter are in order, then the questions naturally under our rules can be asked.

My honourable friend the Member for Morris knows, however, that there is, you know, such a circumstance from time to time - it doesn't happen often - where the Speaker in his discretion and good judgment feels that there has been an over-concentration of questions in one particular fie ld to the exclusion of the opportunity for other members to ask questions in other subject matters. Now this has happened. My honourable friend the Member for Morris is one who really ought to - does know it, I'm sure he doe s, but at this point in time he is not being particularly helpful in sorting things out. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. Does the Honourable Member for Morris wish to ask a question? MR. JORGENSON: Well, Sir, that blatant ejaculation of the First Minister is a direct MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Order, please. I accept both gentlemen's remarks in respect to the point of order. It was my opinion, and only an opinion, and I'm still subject to the House in respect to what your wishes are, but I have felt that sometimes we overemphasize some particular areas. It borders on repetition and that was the only suggestion I was making in respect to the matter of education. Any further questions?

The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GIRARD: Yes, I'd like to direct another question to the Minister of Education. I wonder if the Minister is considering the inconvenience he is causing school divisions by not informing them of the grant structure and the general mill rate as set, and he well knows what that is. MR. SPEAKER: The question is argumentative. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. In view of the answer that he gave me this morning in regards to the Veterinary

434 March 9, 1973 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR. EINARSON cont'd.) . • dinic at Cypress Riv er, could he give the reasons why the clinic at Cypress River has been turned down by his department? MR. USKIW: First let me correct the statement made by the Honourable Member for Rock Lake, and that is that the decision was not made by the department but rather by the Veterinary Services Commission, for which it has responsibility. Now, the reason for that decision is very obvious, Mr.

Speaker, in that the purpose of that commission is to make sure that provincial funds are allocated and facilities built in accordance with a plan which would not jeopardize other facilities in neighboring communities, and therefore it' s a question of viability related to location. MR. EINARSON: I have another question for the Minister of Agriculture , Mr. Speaker. Is the Minister implying that the Minister is not responsible for the decisions that the Commis sion might make in this regard? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I think the Honourable Member would agree that if I inter fered with a decision of the Commiss ion, he would then accuse me of over-ruling your recom mendation, so that he_ can't have it both ways. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I have a third question for the Minister of Agriculture. Could he explain what other facilities that are being interfered with insofar as the decision that was made in turning down the clinic for Cypress River? MR. USKIW: Well I don't have the full story on it, Mr.

Speaker, but I do know - I do know that there is a facility built very recently in the area of Notre Dame; that the facility that was proposed to be built at Cypress Ri ver is so close to Notre Dame that it would indeed, at least in the opinion of the Commission, interfere with the Notre Dame operation and therefore render perhaps both unviable. MR. SPE AKE R: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE : Yes , Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture.

Does the Provincial Government of Manitoba or his department contribute to the operations, whether in gift or in kind, to the Manitoba Seed Growers Associ ation or the Manitoba Branch of the Canadian Seed Growers Association? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agricu lture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure, I'll have to take that question as notice. MR. FROE SE : Just one further question to the same Minister. Does the government contemplate a change in the practice or in its policy of distribution of foundation seed produced at the University of Manitoba? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker I'l l have to take that question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. WILLIAM URUSKI (St. George): I have a question for the Premier; it's in respect to the questions that were asked of him in the last number of days regarding Lake Winnipeg regulation. Coul d he confirm or deny whether or not the costs on Lake Winnipeg regulation have increased? MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Osborne state his point of order. MR. IAN TURNBULL (Osborne): It is my understanding that the Member for St. George is an executive assistant to the Premier.

I was wondering, Sir, in that case, if his question is in order. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. Order, please. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker , the information that is being asked, is being asked by the honourable member in his capacity as an MLA not as a Legislative Assi stant. It's in order that I reply. However if it offends someone for whatever reason, which I can't understand, I won't answer. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR.

JORGENSON: I should like to direct my question to the House Leader and ask him if it may be possible that we could set aside a period of time each day so that gentlemen opposite can ask one another questions including members of the Cabinet? MR. SPEAKE R: Order, please. Order, please. The question is out of order. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER : Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege, merely asking for equal treat ment in this Chamber, I want to take this opportunity to respond to the Member from Morris and tell him that every time he rises to make the point directly or by implication, that members l

Ma rch 9, 1973 435 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR. SCHREYER cont'd. ) . . . • . on this side of the House are somehow not entitled to ask questions of the Treasury Bench, I will get up and say that they have as much entitlement to ask questions of the Treasury Bench as honourable members opposite. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please . Order, please. Order, please .. Order, please . I should like to indicate that on that particular point there are 56 members before the Chair and they ·will all get equal treatment. The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN : Mr.

Speaker, on the same point of order, I would like to say that perhaps what is occurring is that the back benchers are practising for the day when as, occurred in the province of Alberta, there had to be members of the government caucus put into the opposi tion to ask questions because there were no opposition . . . . MR. SPEAKER : Order, please. Order, please. The Honoura ble Le ader of the Opposi- tion. MR. SPIVAK: Yes on a point of order Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Premier would make himself accessible to his Legislative Assistant? MR. -SPEAKER: The Honourable Fi rst Mi nister. MR.

SCHREYER: I will make myself, to answer my honourab le friend's question , I will make myself accessible to my colleagues if the Honourable Leader of the Opposition will make himself intelligible to his. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS, TRUEMAN: Mr. Speaker , MR. SPEAKER: Order, please . Order. MRS. TRUEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Min ister of Health and Social Development. Is the system of classifying social assistance recipients into employ able and unemployable categories being -revised? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Speaker, this que stion was asked of the Premier of the province about a week ago and I think his answer was quite clear. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourabl e Me mber for Arthur. MR. WATT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question, not supplementary, but relating to the question posed by the Member for Rock Lake in regard to the Veterinary Services at Cypress. My question is to the Mi nister, Mr. Spe aker. Was it the decision of the Veterinary Services Commission to construct the Central Veterinary Services Clinic at the University of Manitoba ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Agriculture.

MR� USKIW: No, that was a go vernment decision, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for Sturgeon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Thank you Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Mi nister of Education and I would first like to thank him for his answer that he gave me this morning on a previous question I had asked him.

I would like to ask the Mi nister though , if the government, or his department. intends to make representati on to the Federal Govern ment on a Private Memb er's Bill in the Federal House at the present time which would change the Broadcasting Act, allowing the schools to use the CBC programs without paying royalties, the same as the Manitoba Teachers Association, the Ma nitoba - the Winnipeg School Board and the Ma nitoba -( Interjection)-- thank you -- School Trustees Association have made represent ation supporting this bill ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honrura ble Mi nister of Education. MR.

HANUSCHAK: Yes , I would wish to peruse the Private Member's Bill closely , the one that the honourable member referred to, prior to answering that question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. GIRARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct this question to the Minister of Education and ask him if the certificate that will be allocated to IMP ACTE students who are in that teacher training program, will be the same certificate as allocated to other teachers in Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR.

HANUSCHAK: If the course of teacher training is that offered to other students, then certainly they would be entitled to the same certificate ? MR. GIRARD: A supplementary que stion Mr. Speaker, does the Mi nister know, or does he not know, whether it is the sam e kind of course as is offered to other training institutions ?

436 March 9, 1973 ORAL QUE STION PERI OD MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, certainl y during the first few months, or during the initial stages of the teacher training program, it no doubt would differ from that offered to the student who graduates from high school and continue s on to univers ity by reason of the fact that these students may have need for a certain basic train ing , but the end result of course would be the same , and not only would be the same , but, Mr.

Speaker , thereby we would have teachers better trained, better prepared and equipped, to provide a more meaningful education program in the communities of northern Manitoba and in other areas wherein we have a native population. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Mines and Resources. MR. GREEN : Mr. Speaker, I took as notice a question asked by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. Usually questions taken as notice are not answered until the next ' day or later, but in view of the length of the question period, Mr.

Speaker, it's poss ible to answer a question taken as notice on the same question period as it was taken. The present agreement with Abitibi expires in June of 1975, that is my present information. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a que stion for the Minis ter of Educa tion. Will there be any expansion of the two grants the $18. 00 per student general grant and the $12. 00 per student textbook grant to the school division ? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The Honourable Mini ster of Educatio �. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr .

Speaker, I missed the first grant that the honOu rable member referred to. MR. McKE NZIE : Mr . Speaker, the $18. 00 per student general grant was the first one , and the $12. 0 0 per student textbook grant. Wi ll there be any extension of those grants to the school divis ions this year ? · MR. HANUSCHAK: It's a matter of policy Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. JAMES WALDING (St. Vital): I have a question for the Minister of Mi nes and Natu ral Resources. Does the Manitoba Development Corporation have any cla im under the rece ivership action again st Cambridge Publish ers ? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Mi nes and Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr . Speak er, I'll have to take that que stion as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I' ll re-ask my question since there was a lot of hullabaloo after the first time I- - to the Fi rst Min ister. I would like him to indica te whether or not the costs on the Lake Winnipeg Regu lation have increased as per the rumours that have been floating around ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Fi rst Mi nister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, as to whet her or not the costs have increased relative to -- sort of in accord ance with the rumours that have been brought forward relative to the alleged cost increase, the answer is no; there has not been any increase in cost anywhere near the amount of increase alleged by, for example , the Me mber for Riel yesterday.

The information that has been given me by Manitoba Hydro is that the Lake Winnipeg control works initially estima ted in the order of 56, I believ e , $56 million, is now estimated to cost in the order of 65, and the power plant which was initially estimated to be In the order of 100-110 mill ion dollars will be in the order of 120 or 125, so that the project is coming in perhaps in the order of a 10 or 15 percent increase, but it is absolutely ludicrous , absolutely ridiculo us, to suggest anything in the order of 70 percent or whatever. There is, Mr.

Speaker, let it be clear, the construction of a power plant of about 150 megawatts capacity at Jenpeg and this power plant, the cost of it has to be looked at in the, in relationship to the costs of building power plants these days, the last ten years , etc. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Osborne . MR. TURNBU LL: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney-General.

As there is no legal purpose served by printing the divorces that are declared Absolute, would the Attorney General undertake to ask the Registrar of Divorces to ask the newspapers not to publish this information as some divorcee s are being plagued by nuis ance calls that verge on and some times are obscene ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General.

1 --- -- 1 March 9, 19 73 437 ORAL QUE STION PERIOD HON0 A0 H. MACKL ING, Q. C. (Attorney-General) (St. James): The answer is no. MR. TURNBU LL: Does the Attorney-General not consider that this information which comes from the Registrar of Divorces, even though he may be a federal officer, is not really in the public interest? MR0 MACKLING: I think that, Mr.

Speaker, in answer to that, all of the deliberations that are made in open court, in open public court, as a matter of public record and if the news media considers that that is in the interest of the public to be informe d, that is their privilege and the Crown will not interfere with it. MR0 SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR0 HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Speaker, I now have further information with respect to the question put to me by the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek, and I believ e that if the honourable member had been carefully listening to my reply to his question put to me some days ago, then there would have been no need to put the subsequent question to me. However I think, Mr.

Speaker, it doe s indicate how much behind the times he and his party are because this bill speaks of educational material produced or leased by the CBC to the firm that is in this business and I had indicated that that material had since been recovered from the firm that's been attempting to collect royalty costs. MRO SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MRo SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health and Social Development.

Can the Minister advise the House what completion date the government is shooting for in its study of the costs of dental care for families with children, and of drugs for the chronically ill; what kind of target date for completion is contemplated? MRo SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: As soon as a complete report is possible for presentation to my colleagues in Cabinet. MR. SHERMAN: Is the study underway at the present time? MR0 TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, part of the study is under way. MRo SHERMAN: Will the Minister undertake to table the terms of reference for that study? MR0 TOUPIN: Mr.

Speaker, this for the time being is an internal study; whether this is to be tabled before colleagues in the House is a decision of my colleagues in Cabinet and I. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MRo SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, and comes as a result of the answer to the question earlier in connection with Abitibi. I wonder if he can confirm to the Legislature that the gov ernment is in renegotiation with Abitibi for the contract which expires in 1975? MRo SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MRo GREEN: Mr.

Speaker I believ e I answered that identical question put by the identi cal person, approximately a week ago. MR0 SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I think the answer would show that the question that was put. MRo SPEAKER: Ord er, please. Questions please - no debate MR. SPIVAK: I pose the question again to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources.

In view of the date that has been indicated to the House of June of 1975 , I asked him whether the government is now in the process of renegotiating the contracts for provincial cutting rights with Abitibi, or are there new negotiations with Abitibi for additional cutting rights? MR0 GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I fi nd it very difficult to answer that question and not mis lead. There are existing negotiations with A bitibi with regard to their future position in Manitoba. I do not believe anything is being negotiated which would unilaterally affe ct their rights to 19 75.

In the total negotiations, as often occurs, the people decide to amend existing programs as well, but that is not anything which is required by virtue of the negotiations that are carried on, it's my understanding. MRo SPIVAK: A supplementary question. I wonder if the Minister will confirm that the government is asking for equity with Abitibi as part of the negotiations that are taking place? MR. GREEN: I surely answered that identical question put by the identical membe r last

4:-18 ;\larch !l, 1973 ORAL QUES TION PERIOD (M R. GRE EN cont'd. ) . . . . . week , when I said the government is --( lnterjection)- my hono urable leader says, at the identical hour -- I don't think that they carried us thi s far last time , but they did carry us quite a ways, that the government is negotiating with Abitibi. 1\lR. SPEAKER: The.Honourable 1\Iembcr for Em erson. l\IR. GIRARD: Yes , 1\lr. Speaker, I ha\•e a last que stion for the Minister of Educa tion.

I wonder if he would undertake to cons ider the matter and make a statement on the exemption regula tions clari fying exactly what the exemption regulation will be for this coming .June because I feel that the students and teachers of St. Norbert and man�· other areas will be con fused on that matter. 1\IR. HANUSCHAK: ;\lr.

Speaker, if the honourable member is - and on this I am not sure this year - but if he is still a school principal in the school divis ion where he is employ ed, if he checks with his Superintendent he will find that a very detailed explanatory memorandum went out last fall , very early last fall , September, over the signature of my Deputy l\1 inister, explaining with great precis ion the regulations governing the closi ng of schools at year end, and t would recommend it to him for his reading. MR. GIRARD: This is a supplementary. Would the Mi nister have the generosity of giving me a copy ? 1\lR.

HANUSC HAK: With pleasure , Mr . Speaker, and to anyone else who wishes it. !\1R. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day: Address for Papers. MOTIONS FOR PAPERS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr . Speaker, I would request that we have the matter transferred for deba te when the next occasion arises. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The procedure is that the motion should be presented; if it's accepted there is no debate: if it's not accepted then it may be debated. The Honourable Mem ber for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr .

Speaker, I move , seconded by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition , that an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor praying for copies of all corre spondence and contractual agreements among the Manitoba Government , the Ma nitoba Hog Ma rketing Board, Burns Food Li mited, related to the sale of pork to Japan. MOTI ON presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourabl e Mi nister of Agricu lture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I think I shall refuse that request. I thought the member was going to revise the motion. :.viR. ENN S: l'vlr.

Speaker , in that event then I suppose our rules call for that, I do now ask for the transfer of the matter until the next occasion then. !VIR, SPEAKER: Very well. So ordered, Orders for Return. ORDERS FOR RETUR N MR. SPEAK ER: The Hono urable Member for Por tage la Pr airie. MR. G. JOHNSTON: I move , seconded by the Me mber for Assiniboia. THA T an Order of the House do issue for a return showing: l.

The total number of permanent civil ser vants, temporary employees and con tract staff working for the planning and research branch of the Department of Education as at January 31, 19 73, with a bre akdown as to the number in each of the above categories. 2. The total of salari es , fees and consu lting contracts paid out during the month of Januar y, 1973 to persons working for this branch, with a bre akdown as to each of the cat egories aforementioned in 1. above. 3. The total amount of expense accounts authorized and paid to persons working for this branch during the month of January , 1973. 4.

A brea kdown as to the total amount in expense accounts paid out during the month of January, 1973 for taxi fares, meal costs and entertainment expenses. 5. Whether receipts or vouchers must be rendered by those working for the branch in subm itting their expense accounts and the name of the person who is responsible for auth orizing payment of such accounts.

March 9, 1973 ORDERS FOR RETURN MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, subject to the voluminous amount of information and the time that it will take to compile the Order satisfactorily, it will be accepted. 439 MR. SPEAKER: Agreed ? So ordered. Order for Return by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Po rtage. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the foll owing: 1.

The amount of revenue produced by Phoenix Data since it began operation as a Crown Corporation. 2, The total amount of operating costs during this period. 3. The amount of revenue accrued from services provided by Phoenix to govern ment departments and the amount of revenue produced by non-government busines.s. 4. The number of persons currently employed by Phoenix Data and the monthly payroll. 5. A detailed accounting of the services currently being provided by Pho enix Data for government operations and a list of private companies currently purchasing the services of Phoenix Data. MOTION presented. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the .honourable member is going to insist on a list of private companies currently purchasing the services of Phoenix Data. The number of private companies, if that is the understanding, Mr. Speaker, that is satisfactory; I don't know why internally we have to tell how other people are doing business. If the honourable member says that the Order is now changed to "and the number of private companies currently purchasing the services of Phoenix Data" that will be accepted. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed? (Agreed) So ordered.

The Honourable House Leader. RULES COMM ITTEE REPORT MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would move , se conded by the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture that

WHEREAS the Report of the Special Committee on the Rules of the House was considered in the Comm ittee of the Whole House and reported without amendment on Thursday, Marc.h 8, 1973 -- Excuse me , I wonder if the other members have a copy. THEREFORE , pursuant to the Report of the Committee , the foll owing amendments to the Rules, Orders and Forms of Proceeding of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba be approved and concurred in: (

a) Rule 65 to read as follows -- and Mr. Speaker, I'i;n hoping that members will not require me to read the rule as listed on the written form -- to be shown in full in Hansard.

Is that agreeable to all honourable members or -- I don't mind reading it. 65 . ( 1) Not more than ninety hours shall be allotted to the business of Supply on Estimates, including Main, Supplementary, Interim and Capital in each session. (2 ) At the end of ninety hours in Supply, unless the debate has been previously concluded, the Chairman shall interrupt the proceedings and forthw ith put every question necessary to dispose of the remaining resolutions. ( 3) The Clerk shall indicate daily on the Order Paper the number of hours spent in Supply to date. ( 4) Speeches in Comm ittee of Supply, including those of the Ministers, shall be restricted to thirty minutes. (5 ) When departmental estimates are being presented by a Minister in Committee of Supply , such offic ials of the department as are required by the Minister may be admitted to the Legislative Chamber, and shall be permitted to sit at a table placed on the floor of the House in front of the Minister after the first item (Minister's Salary) is passed. ( 6) While in the Committee of Supply, the Minister presenting his Estimates shall be permitted to speak from a place in the first row of benches.

44 0 March 9, 19 73 RULES COMMITTEE RE PORT ( 7) In moving a motion of concurrence in the Reso lutions reported from Committee of Supply, there shall be only one motion for each Government Dep artment dealing with the total amount of the Es timates of that Department. ( 8} The motion of concurrence in the Es tima tes of a Government Depar t ment shall be debatable, but shall not be subject to amendment. (b} .Rule 88 (4) to read as follows:

(4) A Bi ll reDorted from a Committee of the Whole House shall be rece ived and forthwith disposed of, without amendment. MOTI ON presented. MR. SPEAKER: The resolution as read. Are you ready for the question ? The Hon ourable Member for Rhineland. MR . FRO ESE : Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Assini boia. that debate be adjourned. MR0 SPEAKER: The Honoura ble House Leader. MR. GREEN: Just on a point of order before this is taken to a vote if necessary. We would like to operate under the new rules.

If the member is forci ng a postponement of the new rules it will be very difficult for the Es timates to continue in accord ance wi th what has been generally requested as a total change , and I would urge the honourable member to re cons ider his motion for adjournment or we will have to -- can it not be debated now or per haps it' ll have to be voted upon. MR o SPEAKE R: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE : Well, Mr. Speak er , I will then make a few comments and let the motion go.

I had fig ured on checking through the journals of past years in connection with certain sta tements that were made because I was rather confused yesterday of certain thin gs , and when I made the motion in committee that Rule 70 be amended, in my opinion in past years we did bring in additional amendments regardin g different rules. I recall the one here when we di scussed the report that the Fi rst Mi nister and the Member from Morris brought in a matter of the federal rules; rules of the House of Commons were injected into the debate and. MR.

SPEAKE R: Wil l the Honourable Member fo r Morris state his matter of privil ege? MR . JORGENSON: The Member for Rhinela nd is saying that the Fi rst Mi nister and the Member for Morris brought in those rules. I did no such thing. The record will show that I opposed the introd uction of that particular rule. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rh ine land. MR. FROESE : Thank you. I stand corrected then; I will accept his sta tement.

I just know that the matte r of the federal rules were brought in; this is why I wanted to delay the resolution before us so that I would have time to check on this very matter when I did make a state ment so that they would be corre ct , and I felt that yesterda y's ruling was indeed not in keeping wit h past practice s; therefore this was my reason for trying to delay the debate on the particular report or resolution before us on concurrence .

I do not object to what is contained in the report here , in fact I concur in it , but I feel that there are too many things omitt ed, too many changes that should have been brought in are not brought in. This is the sore point I have wit h the report. I feel there are a good number of things that should have been reported on , chan ges that should have been conside red , which are not in the report. I fully support the proposal that we are concurr ing at the moment. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Labour . HON .

RUSSE LL PAULLEY (Minister of Lailour and Rail way Commiss ioner of Ma nito ba) (Trans cona) : Mr. Speaker, I just ris e to place on the record a certain practice of lif e for the benefit of my honourable friend , the Member for Rh ine land. Point No. 1, Mr. Speaker, is that there's nothing to debar the honourable member from attending any of the meeting s of the Special Committee on the Rules; it was establis hed last sess ion , it may be again this sessi on , and has been adopted for the last two or three yea rs , to cons ider tlm rules of the House.

And also there's nothing to prevent , in addition to the attendance of my honourable friend from Rhine land , to making suggestions to the committee of possi ble changes, and I know that some honourable members who haven't been named members of the committee have attended and made suggestions , and the committee in its deliberations of the rules have on a few occasio ns that I am aware of, taken into cons ideration suggestions from members of the House who were not members of the committee. Also , I think it should be stated for the

Ma rch 9, 197 3 441 RULES COMMITTEE RE PORT (MR. PAUL LEY cont'd ) , , , , , purpose of the record, Mr, Speaker , on this occas ion , once again that there's nothing to pre cl ude the Honourable Member for Rh ineland by a substantive motion to br inging in for the consid eration of the House any desired rule chan ge , and so I just want that cl early under stood , Mr, Speaker , that the member is not debarre d from taking action and he was not debarred from the commi ttee . I understand he was notified on each and every occasi on that the comm ittee was meeting. MOTI ON carried . MR.

SPEA KER: The Honourable Mi nister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker , I beg to move, seco nded by the Honourable the Min ister of Mi nes and Natural Re sourc es , that Mr. Spe aker do now leave the Chair and the House resolv e itself into a Co mm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jes ty. MO TION pre sented and carried. (H onourable Member for Logan in the Chair .) SUPPLY-MINES AND RES OUR CES MR. CHAIRMAN: Res olution 82(a )(l ). The Honourable Member for Fl in Fl on. MR. THOMAS BARROW (Fl in Fl on): Th ank you , Mr. Chairman.

I would hope the Member from Lakeside would ma ke an appe arance here because I have some nice things to say about him. Mr. Chairm an , I think it' s a very big honour for me to stand here today represen ting the sil ent majority. As my friend Eg on Frech has told me ,l ampoon this, that I would make a good Min ister of the sil ent majority, and I'l l accept that and I'l l forgive him for it. I'd li ke to say a few st atements about the pr ess. It was hard for me . I'd like to com plim ent Mrs.

Bil linkoff; her col umn makes the paper worth ten cents otherwise I'd throw it out. --( Interjections)-- It 's worth a dime . I want to talk about a lot of things in this short time and I'l l talk under different parts of the Es timat es. I' d like to talk about a watch system and the Mi nister of Mi nes I want him to hear this who introduced a labour re lationship with the men where they'r e timed.

Every man who would have a stop watch on on hi m in my pla nt is very bitter, but if they' re going to have this system I'd suggest they follow it up to the top ; and I'v e broken down the salary of the top man at $50 . 00 an hour, just as hypothetical but if he goes to the bathroom and spends 15 minutes it cost $1 2. 50. The same thing seems to apply to in rela tion. I was going to talk about the ore expectancy. It's very important to me . The corpora tion will never decla re the true re serves of ore . Of course I' ve spoken before and I'l l just speak brie fly.

I don't think we're too worried about it now since the Kierans report comes out; they have nothing to worry about it because in ten ;years they will have nothing to say about it. I want to reply to the Member from Cres centwood , my coll eague . I apprec iate his honesty and his frankness- I like that - although I don't agree with all parts of his speec h, but I'l l get to that later. I want to say , you know, I real ly an honoured, because I'm a man from the other si de of the tracks. We did have a certain amount of pre stige ; our outhouse had a door on it.

I say that since my col le ague isn't here in the front seat, pret ty expen sive , those outhouse s. The Member from Fo rt Rouge , she came out quite cl ear; I didn't say much. It 's true; I didn't say much , but I'v e been listening for three years and her feeble bl eatings from that side of the House didn't impre ss me too mu ch. And I'm here in terror . You know , I'm afraid of the Mi nister of Mi nes, you say. I'm reall y afraid of him. I haven't asked him if I could speak today - can I spe ak, Si d? How ridiculo us, you know, how ridiculous can you get?

He mi ght be a hurricane to you guys but to us backbenchers he 's nothing but a mil d bree ze. The comparison I think is obvious. Ne verthele ss I'm happy he 's sitting where he is. But what I want to talk about, and it's very impor tant to me - I feel quite deeply about it - is pollutior:. Pol lution , and I refer to my own constituency, there's a small lake , it's a beautiful little lake; it's ri ght in the centre of the town full of poll utants from the mine; cyanide poison, they dump it in there . kill the frogs , the fishes , every thing .

It's working its way down Schist Lake Creek into Schist Lake . poisoning that lake , into Athapap , it poiso ned that lake , and there 's nothing been done about it. Nothing . I'm -- (Interj ection)-- We 'll get to you later Harry. Just be patient , my boy, just be patient. We 'l l get to you. Just sit there . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . The honourable member will refer to other honourable members in this House by their constituency.

442 March 9, 1973 MINES AND RESOURCES MR. BARROW: They' ve been poisoned ... many years by a profit hungry corporation and ignored by former governments who obviously have re ceived ripoffs to turn a blind eye to the problem. A MEMBER: You're right on there. MR. BARROW: Thank you. I'd like to refer to this book, Mr. Chairman, and quote a few paragraphs. Mr. Chairman, I am going to tell you a caucus secret. We have agreed in caucus that the Member from Charleswood is a wit and for the first time we're only half right. --(Interjection)-- You say, be subtle?

Where was I before I was so rudely interrupted? --(Interject ion)-- Oh , yeah, yeah, yeah, the pollution - that's right. --(Interject ion)-- Pardon me? This book, Mr. Chairman , it's a good book , Death of a Child, and was written by a Russian, Pasti ... what's that name? A MEMBER: He can't read either. MR. BARROW: And he presents in dramatic fashion this tragedy that's stalking every American because of the effects of our waterways through sewage and industrial waste - by Justice William Poe Douglas ,Supreme Court of the United States. Here's what he says about the book.

"On e of the most important books you will ever read. It will probably give you sleepless nights and trouble-filled days. If its message is received by enough .people it might also save your life. The pollution of our waters through sewage and industrial wastes can very well le.ad to the extinction of the human race. The author pounds out a scathing indic tion and does it in such a way that once begun you won't set this book aside until you've read the last line. " In this book, I'll give you a little background, I'm going to quote from it, Mr.

Chairman, I hope you have patience with me -- it concerns a little boy, two little boys in a small town in the States liv ing by the side of a river , and this river was polluted by companies, corpora tions, the whole bit , but in the town was a small factory that manufactured DDT and this gentleman to save time dumpe<:J.60 0 lbs. of cyanide in the river because it was raining and the overflow he thought it was a good idea . The boys had been warned not to play near the river but you know what boys are , el even years old ; they play anyway and it was a hot day.

They took off their pants and they had their bathing suits and they went swimming and inhaled of the water. And he died and his mother was bitter. She was vicious. So she thought she'd sue the corporation. The charge was murder, and here's what happened: "Andy died two months ago. No person murdered him. No disease killed him. No dog bit him , " Jessie told me after the funeral . "He came home that afternoon still laughing, said he had gone fishi ng and swimming , catching turtles and a few animals and birds in the woods by the banks of the river .. . That same night he was in convulsions.

We drove him to hospital. They fought but he died within 24 hours. Every bit of modern knowledge could not help him. They were all stumped because no one could tell us what it was that he died of. After a few weeks of hard work the D. A. , making this case a private war, two doctors from the hospital and one local science profe ssor think they've pinned down the blame on·a chemical company, charging the General Manager, a Mr. Ronald Coglan , with manslaughter." Paul knew this chemical company to be owned as a subsidiary of a national enormous company, namely American Chemical Association, or ACA.

They have money, power; they employ over 100, OOO people, pay millions in taxes, have press agents , lobbyists, PR men, law fir ms, and a wide assortment of junior and senior executives fl anked by a small army of chairmen, directors, major and minor stockholders. Together these general giant octopi, each of them playing the role of a private parasitic suction cup. This trial had all the appearance of a quixotic mission or a David and Goliath fight. The little people against the big people. Ordeals smashing with typical Hollywood theme of goods guys versus bad guys?

What disturbed Paul was not the idea of the fig ht to come but what of the future man ? This is the start of the trial, gentlemen, and thenwe'll go on and quote from this page - it's quite interesting. This lawyer's working alone against the corporation and he says, PGs working in immaculate suits pouring this deadly junk and poison into rivers, into the air they themselves drink and breathe. They canlt tell me they don't know. I'm beginning to feel they belong to the lowest level of the human species.

They hold the key to our future, to our lives today or tomorrow, they hold all that knowledge in their heads, the average guy in

Ma rch 9, 197:1 443 MINES AND RE SOUR CES (MR. BARROW cont'd) ..... the street trusts - ye s trusts - this profe ss ive looking bunch of irres ponsibl e bastards telling you I'm a sc ientist. I discover the secrets of nature , it is none of my busin ess how it is used . Maybe that' s just why we're in trouble . The people on top refuse to shoulder the re sponsibilit y demanded by their positio ns.

I say they are cr iminals . all of them . a bunch of stupid pe acoc ks . preening around and showing off their fat salarie s wh ile they spend most of their time , most of their intel lect, most of their education build ing instruments of war or fouling our liv es up with deadly pro duct s, dammit , damm it , if they don't start yell ing· who el se can . Another part of the tri al , gentlem en, and this is more interes ting to you , I have no wish to bore you A MEMBER: It' s not boring. MR, BARROW: Not boring , thank you ... And he 's going on , what makes a cr imina� and he describ es it quite well .

But is a man labe lled a cr iminal only when he commits what we call a direct crim e or an indirect one for that matter? You can drive in the city at 35 miles per hour in a 30 mil e zone and you will be handed a ticket and accused of a cri minal offence, but if you set up a chemical factory and dump even cy anide into a river. kill wild- life , fish , life , vegetation and maybe people , you can't even hand him a one dollar parking fine. Another part of the trial, gentleme n, and this affects everyone I think. Ma ybe your child or yo urs . his , he rs, may want to pl ay along the ri ver.

Who should be miss ed ladies and gentl emen , a little girl or maybe even yourselv e s. You must find this man gu ilty of mans laughter. You must prove to al l that it is a crim e to endanger the lives of others no matter how you endanger it. Let him go free and he will continue his deadly work, all the red and black 200 industr ies, 29 communit ies, 10 million peopl e , 3 mi llion cars, they will all keep pourin g poisons in the water, in the air , until most of us end up dying like this child , spee ch less . sweating , shivering in an oxygen tent somewhere in some hospital room.

All I can add is if he is not found guilty tomorrow may be your turn to suffer the death of that innocent child. " There 's lot more . Mr. Chairman, but I think I'v e proved my point of what happens. What intrigued me is these gentlemen with the $30 0 suits , the ... , nice people; they belong to lodge s, they be long to the curli ng cl ubs, they donate _:_ they 'll give your kid an apple on Hall oween on one hand and on the other hand they 'l l--( Interje ction)-- Ri ght. The same situ ation exists in Fl in F Ion , Mr. Speaker. MR, CHAIRMAN: Ord er , ple ase . The Honourable Member for Rh ineland.

MR , FROE SE : Wou ld the honourable member permit a question ? I would like to know what report he was reading from. MR, BARROW: I'l l answer the question later, Mr. Froese. Honourable Member for Rh ineland. My etiquette is not of the best. The same situation exists in Fl in F Ion, Mr. Speaker. The se gentlemen have poured poisons into Ross Lake , destroyed all water life , bug·s , frogs , what have you , fish , no compa ssi ons whatsoe ver, and they have been fortunate, Mr. Chairma n , the damage has not been greater.

The y'v e only succeeded in breaking all the laws of nature and destroyed mil es of beautiful waterways and it hasn't bothered them a little bit. But the same thing could happen here that happe ned in this book. And how would you cl as s these gentlem en ? The Member from Mi nnedosa , honourable gentlemen. Well if they' re honourable gentlemeu I'm glad I'm not. I'm calli ng on my colle ague the Honourable Mi nister of Mi nes to so lve this problem quickly as he solved the problem of sa fety. Safety in mines.

Li sten to this Harry it's for you , The former Minister of Mi nes had every opportunity to introduce safety in the mining area and he fluffed it . -- (Interjecti on)-- The Member for Lakes ide . A MEMBER: No! MR. BARROW: Sure he did. When he was approached by labour, my people , he state d, and I'll quote ; "I'm not intere sted in safety , I'm concerned about production. " That's what he said. MR. EN NS: On a point of pri vileg e , Mr. Chairman. MR, SPE AKE R: The Honourable Member for Lakesid e on a point of privil ege .

MR, ENNS : The Honourable Mernber from Fl in F lon to whom I li stened to with some interest , has on several occ asions de liberately and wil lfully attributed statements to me for which he has absolutely no proof statements that have never been made in that context and

444 March 9, 1973 MINES AND RESOURCES (MR. ENNS cont'd ) ..... I would ask him before he further bri ngs delibera te distortions and lies into the public record that he indic ate to the House and to me on what basis he reads this kind of di stortion into the record.

Ei ther I would assume that he has something that he can refer to that I have said public ly in the record of the Hansard of this House or that he has some trans cript, some verbatim transcri pt at a public meeting that I said this, but such an obvious ploy on the part of the Member from Ba rrow is really not doing him any credit and I'm certainly not concerned about it. MR . CHAlRM AN: I think the point is well taken. The Honourable Member for Fl in Flon. MR. BARROW: Mr. Chairman , I have seven representatives of labour who wi ll appear and sw ear on a Bi ble that high that you sa id this.

And I could get 20 more ... MR. ENNS: Tha t's fine . Mr. Chairman , my only question , that he brings in those seven members of labour and the stack ofB ibl eEiand make them swear that high as to that atte station . MR. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, during my career, and it hasn't been an easy one , I spent 18 years in the coal min es, the coal fields of Spr inghill , No va Scotia , and those mines were infested wifa rats and those rats had more courage , more guts , more prin ci ple than the Honourable Member from Lakes ide. --(Interjection )--l'm not finished yet Ha rry.

A ME MBER: There certainly is a point beyond which ... MR . CHAlRMAN: Order , please. I would ask the honourable member to withdraw that remark please. MR . BARROW: You'l l get your chance later of putting ... MR . CHAlRM AN: Or der , please . I would ask the honourable member to withdraw that remark. MR . GREEN: Mr. Chairm an , I certainly think that the remarks should be withdrawn , but when we talk limits I would ask the honourable member to examine their limits in terms of what the Member for Bi rtle-Russell said about members of this side of the House with regard to their respectiv e war veterans.

I agree that the remark goes beyond the bounds of parlia mentary priv ilege and I would urge the honourable member to use language which is more accep table. But when we talk about limits I would ask honourable members to read the remarks that were made by the Member for Bi rtle-Russell. MR . CHAlRMAN: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon . MR . BARROW: Mr. Chairm an , I will withdraw the remark but I won't withdraw the meaning. Well let me put it another way -- I'l l withdraw it , Mr. Chairman. I'l l sum it up in one bri ef sentenc e.

My people , union people agree unanimously that the former La bour Mi nist er, or Minis ter of Mines and Natural Re sources proved to be as useless as tits on a bull. MR. CHAlRMAN: Ord er , please . MR . BARROW: Mr. Chairm an , I am going to give you a little quotation here and it applies today and I' 11 finish up this brief speech Lik e the Member from Ste. Ro se says I don't talk very much. And it says this:" By degrees it has come to pass that working man have been surrended, iso lated and helpless to the hardhear tedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition.

Some opportune remec'y must be found quickly for the mis ery and wretchedne ss pr essi ng so unjustly for the majority of the working clas s. " Who quoted this , Mr. Cha irman ? Was it quoted this year , last year ? No . Pope Leo XIII in 1891 and things haven' t changed much si nce. Thank you very much , Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAlRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDERSON (Pembi na) : Th ank you. Mr. Speaker , I'm glad to see that the Minis ter of Mi nes and Nat ural Re sources is going ahead with the flooding of Southern Indian Lake.

Nat urally I'm very disa ppointed that he's not doing it a higher level.

I had the opportunity of being down in the States this winter and I went through the Hoover Dam si te which I presume he 's familar with and after he went through there you could go in and see a film and I believe they had quite a bit of controversy at that time , but the fishing and mining and other things improved after the flooding of the area and I feel that many people that are so concerned about the en vironment and ecology are just looking at it from one si de and are thinking that there could be no benefits and I think they're overemphasizing this. Professors

Ma rch 9, 1973 445 MINES AND RESOURC ES ( MRo HENDERSON cont 'd) ..... in particular seem to come out so strong against it but these very same professors have no intention of doing wi thout hydro or gasoline or electric heat and light and all these other things , so I just wonder how people can expect to have it both ways. And when you 're talking about the eco logy and the Member from Fl in F lon was talking about pollution , I think it' s agreed amongst all people that there isn't a cleaner way of getting power than by water , by water which is a nat ural resource .

Thi s is why I'm puzzled as to why we aren't going hi gher. I haven't been able to see through it and I have a feeling that they're making a terr ible mi stake , but it 's probably gone to the stage where we can't retract and I suppose there isn't too much use complaining about it any more except I'll always feel that the people of Manit oba are being cheated in this respect. As to the Le ader of the Liberal Party and some of his remarks , I'v e heard him men tionin g again and again now this last few days about selling power to the Un ited State s. What's wrong wi th selling power?

What is wrong with ·se lling power I'd lik e to ask the Leader of the Li beral Party. I think it' s darn good business and I'm just dis appointed that we ha dn't gone ahead with this here di version long ago and were selling lots of power so as we could do things that you want to do in the province and reduce taxes and other things that you have . And he talked about studies and I'm just shocked to see the number of studie s that was pre sented up un til that time that he doesn 't seem to be aware of .

I know there comes a point when you ha ve to separ ate the econom ics of the thing out from the economic point of view and from the environ ment point of view but I still think the wrong decisi on is being made when you are regulating La ke Winnipeg to help for hydro purposes.

Now maybe the regula tion of Winnipeg can be justi fied on recreation benefits or possi bly on wi ldlif e although it might be just as damaging on them but when you think of the money that's being spent , and this morning we were told it 's less than what was quoted before but it went up l5 percent in a year , and I can't see that you can sell enough power off the regulating of La ke Winni peg to make the interest on the debt.

And I wondering , and I wish the Minis ter would answer this sometime , if the regulation of La ke Winnipeg , the total cost in connection with this is charged against Hydro only, which means that the people of Ma nitoba , the rura l people of Manito ba , because Winn ipeg has its own Hydro system - are really going to be paying for the regulation of Lake Wi nnipeg when it probably may turn out to be more for tourist or recrea tio n benefit.

And another 1'.lOint that I'd like to make is when they were talking about it , the Pr emier said that one foot on La ke Wi nnipeg was as effect iv e as so many feet on Southern Indian Lake .

Now it sounded li ke a very effective statement at the tim e but it 's one of those that 's mis leading to my opinion , because when you work on Southern Indian Lake you 're putting up a dam which is diverting water , which is a continual flow and an additional amount that wi ll go one way, which is just -- it' s a complete addition and it' s something that was going another way, and so I don't see why he talks about what one foot on Lake Winnipeg meant acc ording to Southern Indian Lake , because I can't see that the regulating of La ke Winnipeg is adding any water.

No w nobody can argue that it' s adding water. It can't be argued on that basis. But when you talk about Southern Indian Lake you are talking about the princ iple of damming and div erting water which is a di fferent thing , which means a lot of water can keep coming , and it keeps coming all the time . It isn't like in La ke Winnipeg where it runs out. Another thing I would li ke to bring up to the Mi nister is whatever became of all the PFR A programs that we used to have years ago.

We used to have the stock watering dams for liv estock and dugouts and this was a very good program for people in the liv est ock busine ss and for western people in general. It was one of the better programs I think that 's come out, and I haven't seen any stock watering dams going in in this last while.

I don't know whether the agreements ha ve been renewed, and this is a good program , and I have to think of the Mc E achern Da m in particular , this is just east of Ca rman , where they ha ve been working on a project si nce 1968 -- it seemed to ha ve pretty hi gh prior ity even at that time -- and I'v e been in several time s wi th the Dev elopment Corporatio n and I don't know how many others, people from the dif ferent counc ils, arid we always get a real good hearing , but we don't get no action.

Now I find out it ' s gone on down to Ottawa now , but my gosh how long does it take to get something done that really means something to farm _people ? You know, you're so concerned wi th bein g the Mi nister of Mi ne s, and I'm referrin g to your head , that

44ff Ma rch 9, 1973 MINES AND RESOURCES (MR. HENDERSON cont'd ). . you seem to lose out on some of the things that are affecting the ordinary people and their way of making a living. And another spot in my cons tit uency that I think the people are in the rig ht , is where we have what you call the area of Lizard Lake. Everybody practically in that area signed a petition wanting a control structure put in on that area.

I'm talking about a control structure because the way it's been , there's been some people closing off where there's a runway , and some have been digging it ou t, and the truth of it is that if there would be a control structure put in there the water could be held back in the spring at the time when the heavy flow is on and when it' s flooding land and then the control structure could let this water go later on and it would run in the river bottom and wouldn't be causing flooding and damage; and this way there would be literally thousands and thousands of tons of hay and acres and acre s of pasture that could be used which by holdin g the water back on it the way it has been they haven't been able to get on it for yea rs , and these people are just losing an awful lot of money.

And really what this would take would really be a good control brid ge with regulation on -- properly regulated as to who would open the struct ures --(Interjection)-- Pardon ? MR. GREEN: Would the member repeat the name of the lake? MR . HENDERSON: This is on Lizard La ke. MR. GREEN: Li zard Lake ? MR . HENDERSON: Yes. And of course we've been talking about the Pembina Dam . and I understand there's something going on again.

I only hope that our department would take the initiative and not be always waiting for the States to do something , and it just seems as if they show so little concern that it 's just one way of completely avoiding the is sue. In his earli er remarks he talked about corridors to Crown Corporations and hunting and I have to agree with him on this .

I don't belie ve that anybody should be able to stop anybody from hunting on Crown lands , but I think I have to say that I di sagree very strongly with the people ha ving hunting ri ghts on pri vate land unless they are leased by the pri vate owner . because I think if you own your p lace you surely ca n run your own place and be your own boss.

Now I don't say that you should be able to stop people from us ing Cr own lands behind, that you shouldn 't have a corri dor , but as to, shall we say , ever thinking of going any further than that, I certainly think that 's wrong, because these people that love all the ducks and the geese and that , it 's too darn bad that they didn't ha ve some of the ir cr ops in the surround ing area eaten up and be at a loss and have fellows that are shooting , driving across their swaths and so on. I think possi bly that your department is very large. I know you are a very efficient Mi nister and very capable.

I don't want to downgrade you on your ability by any means, it 's the way your thinking goes in a lot of ways I certainly have to differ with , but it really seems to me that you're so concerned with havin g government Cro wn corporations and other Cro wn corpora tio ns; you've been fighting in Uni ci ty [lnd you've been inv olved in Eco nomical Development , and here 's another release here where it says , "Mr. Schreyer said that transf errin g responsibil ity for the Ma nitoba De velopment Corporation Act and the asso cia ted Community Ec onomic Development Fund Act from Industry and Commerce, Mr.

Len Ev ans to Mr. Green, will effectively place reporting for all Crown Corporations under one Mi nist er. Mr. Green already has responsibilities for enterprises established under the Manitoba Nat ural Re sources Dev elopment Act. " Now I know how activ e you are , not only in this but I know you are right up on the top in the whole works-- you and a few others are the king pins over on that sid e and there 's no doubt about it --but I actuall y feel that as a Mi nister regarding the rural areas , that you're putting too much emphasis on the other and forgetting about them. Thank you.

March 9 , 1973 447 MINES AND RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON : Well, Mr. Chairman, first of all I'd like to congratulate the Minister for being reinstated in the front benches to the gove rnment.

I didn't think that he would remain out very long but as some have said he is a very astute politician and when he weathered the storm on the last session and saw fit to come back into the ranks of the Cabinet, it appeared to me that it was the kind of political motivation that I suppose, if I were in his shoes and that same situation was confronted with me, I would probably do the same thi.ng. A MEMBER: Never. MR. EINARSO N : However, I do want to say, Mr.

Chairman, that the Department of Mines and Resources is a department that is very impo rtant to the people of the Province of Manitoba and there has been much discussion in regards to Crown Corporations, as my col league has just mentioned here.

The concern, and I think I'll deal with this first, is the Kierans Report and as it affects the mining industry and as I asked the Minister a question the other day, as far as the mineral rights that are owned by farmers in the province, whether they would not be affected as the policy that it appears to be, namely the repatriation of the mining industry within ten years. And this is an area that I was very concerned about, and I can't help but feel, Mr. Chairman, the key word as we discuss many matters pertaining to this government, I cannot help but feel that that key word is "tak eover".

A MEMBER: Takeover it is. MRO EINARSO N : Takeover of a good deal of the rights that should be left in the hands of individuals, citizens of this province, decisions made by people rather than the state making decisions for them. I fully realize, Mr. Chairman, that governments do have to take respon sibil ity in certain areas but it concerns me very very much as to the road that this government is follow ing insofar as the economics of our province is concerned. Now, Mr. Chairman, to get to some of the basic problems that I find in my area of the Province of Manitoba, namely, the lakes that we have in our area.

Rock Lake is one of them that is I think known to a lot of people in Manitoba because we have facilities there, both pri vate and public , whereby people from say the City of Winnipeg and other areas, can go out on weekends and enjoy themselves, get away from that hustle and bustle of the city life and I know that as the Minister indicated when I asked a question about Rock Lake, he referred to the Minister of Tourism and Recreation and the effect that I got from that was that he is now becomi ng more responsible for what is happening at such places as Rock Lake and Pelican Lake. And I want to say, Mr.

Chairman, that I recall when we were on that side of the House I repre sented the area where Pelican Lake is situated and at that time it was back in 168, '67 , 168, the Pembina River did not flow into Pelican Lake. We made some changes there that was no great cost to the taxpayers of this province, whereby the flow of the Pembina River was diverted back into Pelican Lake. I want to say, Mr.

Chairman, that as soon as this government took of fice one of the first things the Minister did was to well that river shed, stop the water from flowing into Pelican Lake which I think was a very grave erroro I don't know why he did it, Mr. Chairman; I have some ideas but no proof. Well it's been suggested to me, Mr.

Chairman, that one or two citizens from the City of Winnipeg seemed to have greater influence on the Minister than the regards for the people of the entire community out at Ni nette - - (Interjec tions) - - You know I have never been able to really find out, but this is what I'm - the inform ation that I have. There's another area Mr. Chairman I think that is important, and here I want to make a suggestion to the Minister, and here I want to make a suggestion to the Minister, and he has received applications to this effect, in regards to the damage done by wildlife on crops for farmers.

I think that probably the Act could be amended or the regulation

part could be changed, and when we talk about damage of crops by wildlife such as ducks and what have you', there is another area, another problem, that farmers have had this past year and that is the damage of sunflower crops by blackbirds, and I think that the Minister, if I may suggest to him, that that regulation could be very simply changed by adding the blackbirds into the list of birds, migratory birds that damage crops; and I think this would facilitate the assistance to those farmers who have had losses in that category. There's another area, Mr.

Chairman, that falls under the purview, I think, of the Minis ter, while he does say that this is federal jurisdiction, and that is - - and I want to say that I

448 March 9, 1973 MINES AND RESOURCES (MR. EINARSO N cont'd) ...•. think this is an issue that is far more important probably than he re alizes because he's responsible for the management of wildlife throughout the province - - it relates to the night lighting of our wildlife, and I'm informe d by Mr, Chretien, who is the Minister responsible in Ottawa, that if anyone is found night lighting on private property or · lands other than Crown lands, they can be dealt with by the provincial jurisdiction.

But the Minister has said, and I threw this question out to him last year in the last se ssion, in which he stated that it was the responsibility of the Fe deral Government, I want to say, Mr, Chair man, that to make sure that I was representing my constituency to the fullest - - I have one reservation at Swan Lake. I appeared before their council and I put this question to them, be cause there was a lot of ill feelings that were created, because of the publicity that was given both in regards to the white man and our Indian fo lks.

Some of the publicity that was bandied about in the press was just not justified and as a result, it caused hard feelings amongst both the white people and our Indian residents, and I asked the band council, the administrator, if they would agree that if a law was passed to forbid night lighting of wildlife by all citizens of the province, and they answered me, Mr.

Chairman, in the affirmative" So I have the assur ances of all of my people that if this were done it would certainly help to solve a real problem not only in my part of the - my constituency, but in many other constituencies in rural Manitoba, Now, Mr.

Chairman, getting back to Rock Lake again, and the people of my area I think have a very valid argument, because as my colleague said from Pembina that the inaction of this government while they are prepared to meet with groups, and I know that there's a commis sion set up in that area, nothing has been done to date; and they also argue that when we were on that side of the House, and we did use it as a pilot project in treating algae in the water of Rock Lake; and I think to refresh my memory, Mr, Chairman, possibly the Minister could indicate was it two years that he did it, or more ?

MR0 GREEN: But we did it, several years I believe. MR0 HENDERSON: Well, Mr" Chairman, that service has now ceased, They are not getting any - - they did not last year, I can say that. There was no treatment made in the lake last year. And the thing is, Mr.

Chairman, that we have many people coming across the line to do fis hing, to hunt, and there is revenue for the gove rnment in this area, And I feel that if the department is not prepared to give any assistance to that area, to facili tating the Lake, or spend any money insofar as correcting the water level so that it can be made to improve insofar as the resort area is concerned, and they feel that if the gove rnment is going to be prepared to accept the revenues that are forthcoming from the people coming across the line then they should be prepared to share some of that with the people of that part of the province" I think, Mr.

Chairman, those are some of the things that I have to say and raising insofar as the esti mates of the Mines and Resources are concerned" MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr. Spea;;:er, ju st so that we don't get too many people having to be responded to, I think I can take a few minutes to respond to some of the things that have been said then we'U deal with the others and I'll deal with the gentlemen who are in the House and withhold my remarks until the other gentlemen who have spoken come back, that is the Member for Riel and the Member for Pembina.

With regard to Rock Lake, Mr. Speaker, and I'll start from the Honourable Me mber for Rock Lake 's remarks.

The honourable member knows full well that the copper sulphate algae program was i pilot program started by the administration of the Conservative government, It started it as a pilot program and made it quite clear that it does not accept responsib ility, provincial responsibility, for treating that lake; that if it were to have to do this it would have to accept provincial responsibility for treating all similar circumstances in the Provinces of Manitoba, and that this would be a provincial cost that it could not bear - - and I am merely ag reeing with the position that was taken by the administration of which the honourable member was a supporter and backbencher.

We are not doing anything different with regard to that situation. And, Mr.

Speaker, it's not because it's the Conservatives who set that pos ition; it's not because it's they who set it that! agree with them; on the other hand it's not because they set it that I disagree with them; it happens to be a sens ible position, If the area is not declared a provincial park and therefore subject to total provincial consideration, then it is like any other area in the Province of Manitoba, and it's interesting that the .Member for Rock Lake who makes a case for Rock Lake, and that's perfectly legitimate, that's what a member

Ma rch 9, 1973 449 MINES AND RESOURCES (MR. GREEN cont'd) ..... for a constituency should do. But it's interesting, Mr. Speaker, that he has talked about Rock Lake, that he has not said that there should be a provincial policy whereby all lakes in this condition should be pa id for provinci ally. And, Mr.

Speaker, that to me represents a very selfish pos ition because if he'd have sai d the other, if he had sai d that this should be done all over, then at least it would make some sense; but to come in and say that it should be done for Rock Lake becaus e it started as a pilot in Rock Lake and that there are som e American tourist s vis iting Rock Lake and therefore moneys go to the Prov incial Government and the Provincial Government should ther efore buy copper sulphate for Rock Lake; that to me is an inde fens ib le pos ition.

I would suggest to you that the major ity of money spent by those American tourists is spent in the immediate vi cini ty of Rock Lake and that the people in those areas get the greatest benefit of it as it is, and I think that's as it should be. So I'm not, Mr. Speaker, suggesting that this not be cons idere d on a total provincial bas is .

But I want those honourable members who talk so much about people standi ng on their own feet and the government not supporting them, and the government not interfering in the affa irs of munici pali ties , and the government not going int o municip ali ties wi th money programs, that they should talk that way consis tently, because now when it comes to supporting a drain in an area., such as the Honourable Member for Rhineland frequently comes up wi th, he ceases to be a free enterpri ser; he cease s to talk about rugged in divi dualism; he cease s to say that the farmer whose land is wet is the man who should pay for getting that water off hi s land; he now says that that wet farmer's land is a matter of our collective respons ibil ity, because what is good for that farmer is good for the total Provi nce of Man itoba.

And I agree wit h him, I agree wi th him, and that is why we have a drainage program which says that all of the people of Man itoba, including the people in Inkster cons tituency, are going to pay money for the purpose of seeing to it that farm lands are drained.

If that is so si mple a conc ept, then why is it so diffic ult a concept for the honourable members to ac cept the fact that when somebody is sic k, instead of having water on his land, that when somebody is sic k it is equally a collective respons ibility for the people of Manit oba to get together, pay money for the purpose of aid ing that si ck person because it is to the benefit of us all.

Why is this so easy for the honourable members to talk about collective provinci al res pons ib ili ties to help the lake in Rock Lake and not have collect ive respons ib il i ty for helping the education of an individual in the Province of Manitoba.

And I would wi sh that the honourable member when he is talkin g about his Rock Lake, the dearest thing to his particular heart, as it should be, that he merely thinks beyond Rock Lake and say whether he thinks this is a pro vi ncial policy that we should buy copper sulphate anc'. treat every lake in Man itoba on the basi s of a pilot proj ect which was commenced in Rock Lake. And look, Mr.

Speaker, what the community refuses to do on its own, at least that 's what the Member for Rock Lake has sugges ted, that this vi gorous community in mid-s outhern Manitoba says that desp ite the fact that the Prov incial Government has hired its profess ional staff, has done research, has hired the admin istration, has purchase d the materials, has gone in there and helped them with the pro gram, that after that has been done for them at collective expense, they ar e unwill ing to pay for the copper sulphate, which may amount to - - what is it ?

Is it $10 , OOO a year, I think I'm us ing a high figure; I believe it's 5, OOO; I can't see the - - (Interjections) - - Yes, Mr. Speaker, that community whi::h wants to stand on its own feet, and which wants to be ruggedly indiv idual istic, as is the Member for Rock Lake, says that if we'll not treat the lake and pay $5, OOO for the materials to put into it, after all of the province, including the peoµle in my consti tuency, which I don 't begrudge them one bit, have paid thousands of dollars to show them that they could do that for themselves and do it well. Mr.

Spr:iaker, so much for rugged indiv id ualism, the ideok·gy of the Member for Rock Lake. It seems to me that in this case I am defending rugged indiv idu alism. The honourable member says that ni ght li ght is a problem that we have refused to be invdved in; that ni ght li ghting is a matter that we have refused to be iw olved in. Mr.

Speaker, if I said that, which I doubt, then I would h.w e to hastily wi thdraw and say that that is not the c;ise, that we are certai nly involved in ni ght lighting; that we are certainly involved in nig ht lighting whether it's conducted by white men or Indians; and what dist urbs me, Mr. Speaker, is that I get letters from people who say that I was sleeping in my bed last night and I heard some sneaky Indians outside shooting off their rifles and hunting at ni ght. Well, Mr. Speaker, how did this person sleepin g in hi s bed know that there were Indians outs ide nig ht

450 March 9, 1973 MINES AND RESOURCES (MR. GREEN cont'd) •.... lighting? And that is the assumption that everybody who night lights is an Indian. Well I want to tell my honourable friend that there are many people who night light who are not Indians; that night lighting is a general problem and the people who are treating it as an Indian problem do an injustice to the Indian people.

We have dealt with night lighting whether it is done by Indian people or white people; if it is done on private land the same rules apply to Indian people as applied to white people, and I believe that the only quali fic ation is that the Supreme Court of Canada has said that Indian people hunting for food on lands to which they have access are not governed by provincial regulations.

If the honourable member wants to argue with the Supreme Court of Canada, I am suggesting to you that the Supreme Court, which is supposed to be the fountain of judicial wisdom in this country, has said that Indian people on land to which they have access hunting for food are not governed by prov incial hunting regulations, and that is the only thing that we can not interfere with. If they are not hunting for food they come under the same law. It makes it difficult to get a con viction, I agree; but if they are not within that qualific ation then they are under provincial jurisdiction.

The honourable Member says that the Indians themselves are willing to undo this quali fication that applies to them; he says that some band in his area passed that. I would suggest that he get that band to communicate with the Manitoba Indian Brotherhood; get the Manitoba Indian Brotherhood to communicate with Mr. Chretien in Ottawa, and I am sure that if the Manitoba Indian Brotherb0od told Mr.

Chretien that they want that qualification removed, it would be removed, and it would have nothing to do with the Prov ince of Manitoba0 You ask me how we feel about it personally, I am suggesting to you that we feel that this is one of those areas which the Indian people feel that they have an advantage on, and on which they wish to deal with not in such a way as the province would take away their rights. They are using that particular advantage for the purpose of discussing the matter with Otta wa; what will ultimately occur, I do not know.

Naturally it would be preferable to the people of Manitoba if all its citi zens were governed by the same law with regard to wildlife, we would prefer that. On the other hand it is a right which the Indians have by virtue of the Indian Act and how that right is modified is something that's ultimately going to have to occur between the Indians and the Government of Canada. The Member for Rock Lake mentioned blackbirds coming under the compensation program. I am going to have to deal further with the compensation program because the Member for Lakeside asked some very pertinent and good questions on the subject.

The Compensation Program that presently exists is made up provincially of the payments that are made by hunters and the hunting certificates and Federally by a contribution which has been advanced by the Fe d eral Government. It applies to only certain birds so far as the Federal Government is concerned; and applies provincially to birds which are the subject of hunting, if they corres pond to the federal species. I don't think blackbirds come into that category. In other words, I don't think we can use that money for dealing with compensation for crop damage that occurred by virtue of blackbirds.

Again I see that the Honourable Member for Rock Lake is adopting socialism as his philosophy. He.believes that if a farmer is damaged by black birds, that it's not his individual responsibility to pay for it, that it is the collective responsibility of the people of Manitoba to help that individual farmer who was damaged by blackbirds. - - (Interjections) - - No, that is not a socialist position. - - (Interjection) - - Well the fact is, Mr.

Speaker, that the honourable member is merely stating that when you pay taxes that you collectively collect the money, you collectively pay, that you collectively therefore benefit. I suggest to you that that is the principle of socialism, that there will be collective revenues, and that there will be collective entitlements to the receipt of that revenue. And if the honourable member is now moving towards the ideology of socialism insofar as it affects blackbirds I would see that his thinking that there is at least a crack in his individualistic armour when it comes to damage caused by blackbirds.

Can't he see that if it comes to educating people, if it comes to feeding people who are starving, if it comes to treating people who have health problems, if it comes to treating people who have dental problems, then of course that is not socialism. But there shall be blackbird socialism in Manitoba as far as the Honourable Member for Rock Lake is concerned. Now I think that a far more significant statement, and I think that it's quite natural that somewhere in between that redistribution of the school divisions there's a fo rmer Minister of

March 9. 1973 451 MIN ES AND RESOURCES (MR . GREE N cont'd) ..... Mines phra ses a good question with regard to the Compensation Program, and that is, how much money is in it, how much has been paid out - - where are we? A note was pres ented to me this morn ing by the staff which had those figures exactly, and which I'm having some difficulty locating. I wonder if the honourable member would giv e me a minute. Yes, here I am.

In this respect Mr, Speaker , I think that he has a proper question bec aus e I think that we may be - - and just looking at these figures, that we may be slow in making pay ments out of that Compensation Fund. I don't think that's seri ous bec aus e I think that it was expected that it would grow up for the purp ose of doing things , but I think that certainly in the fall of 1973 we had better have much more massi ve programs than we have had in the past.

The rec eipts starting in 1970 and '7 1 were 128, OOO - - and I'll ju st gi ve you the round figures if you don't mind - - in '71-'72, 133, OOO; in 1973, 144, OOO; and then there lure crop recoveries of roughly $957. 00 in '71-'7 2; $2, 700 in '7 3. The expenditures in 1970 and 1971, we spent depart me ntally $60, 000 for lure crop purchases but it was not taken out of the Fund, that was to sort of get the Fund off the ground; it was an advance provincially, not spec ifically by the Fund receipts, in order to have the Fund build up prior to receiving money.

In '7 1- '72 there were $46, OOO spent on lure crops ; to February 28, 1973 there was another 51 , OOO spent on lure crops ; so there was a total of 98, OOO, and I'm leavin g off again the other figures, I'm rounding it at 98, OOO spe nt on lure crops. This year there was a Compensation Pr ogram gone into in conjunction with the Federal Government on which there could have, I suppose, been a contingent claim of $100, OOO, but the compensation claims to date, Mr.

Speaker, are very sm all, they're surpris ingly small in my mind, they are I believe approximately $7 , OOO and that's po ssi bly an indication that we can do much more in the area of compensation in the following year.

The balance in the Fund as of February 28, 1973 is $312, 000. 000 I would think that the Fund has now reached those figures that the department had hoped that they would reach in or der to deal with both the lure crops end of the program and the greater compensation end of the program, but I must warn the Member for Rock Lake that I don't think it is a fair charge on these moneys which is hunter certificate payment to deal with blackbirds, I don 't think that is a - - and I may be showing some lack of knowle dge here, I don't think that that is an animal which is in the hunting area - - (Interj ection) - - Pa rdon me ?

It 's a "bo id". Well a "boid" is an animal, so are you and I, but yeah - - in any ev ent if there is a comp ensation program to deal with bla ckbir ds and it doesn't properly fall into the hunting category then of cours e it would have to come out of General Revenue. A MEMBER: You've heard the song of the bla ckbird. "Bla ckbir d bye-bye. " MR. GREEN: However, I belie ve that the Member for Lakes ide raises a proper question and one which should put the departm ent on its toes, which I would think that the honourable member who was the Minister of the department, would be very helpful in that respe ct, and Mr.

Speaker, it's always an argument that I make with private enterp ris ers who say that, "well gover nment has no competition and that people are - there's no inducement to make gover nments move. " I say that every day for what has be en six months of the year there is people on the other si de of the House who are entitled to ask publ icly what I am doing; I have got to be abl e to prov ide them with answers ; and every si ngle one of these people is working to get me out of my pre s ent job.

Now I wonder what private enterpr ise manager is under similar competition and on the spot as much as a Minister of the Crown ? A ME MB ER : ... program, Man at the Top. Wednesday nights. MR. GREEN: Man at the top .. Well, Mr. Sp eaker, all I'm indicating is that I think that the kind of question that the Member for Lakeside raised is an indication that governme nts cannot be merely static in what they are doing bec aus e there is much greater pressure on governments to do their job by virtue of the parl iamentary demo cratic system than there is on any si milar private enterprise field.

And I thank the honourab le member for bringing these figures to the attention of the House bec aus e it's he who has done it rat her than myself. I would not even had them directly in my attention had he not asked the quest ion that he put which is, I repeat, a very good question. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Rock Lake and the Member for Lakeside asked with regard to the Kierans Report and the gov ernment making a clear statement on its mining policy. Mr.

Speaker, I don't think that the mining industry in Manitoba has any doubt as to what the pres ent pos ition of this government is, that there has never been any clearer state of affairs as between the governme nt and the mining industry than there has been in the past

452 Ma 1 �h 9, 1973 MINES AND RE SOU RCES (MR. GREE N cont'd) ..... several yea rs. And I would suggest that if you doubt this you can speak to the people in the industry. There has been constant consultation, constant clari fying of posit ions . not always agreement. As a matter of fact I would think that the tim es that there were agreement were less than the times that there was disagreement. But as to whether there was knowledge, or understanding, or clarification, I would suggest that none of the indus trie s has ever suggested that they don't know what the government is doing.

They don 't know what the government 's posit ion is with regard to this report that has now been presented. And, Mr. Speaker, there's no government that has ever been able to assu re an industry that future policy is something which they can depend on. Because, Mr. Speaker, if a government trie d to do that, and this too has been made clear to the min ing industry, it may be that the Member for Wolseley, the Leader of lhe Liberal Party who says that we should tax the mini ng industry as much as we want, you know, and how much do we want? My pos ition is that I want it all.

So he says , lax them as much as we want, tax them as much as we want and don't bother going ahead and doing anythin g in that regard. Well, Mr. Speaker, I can't tell the mini ng industry, I can 't as sure them, although I can gi ve them a pretty good prediction, that the Leader of the Li beral Pa rty will not be the Prem.ier of Manit oba si x months from now or a year from now or two yea rs ... A i\IEi\IBER: Or ever. l\IH.

GHEEN: ... and when he is the Leader of the Government of Manitoba, if that hypothetical si tuation would arise, I ca n't assure them that he won't tax them everything that they'v e got, which appears to be his po! icy. Well, Mr. Speaker, he says if we want the money, you know. and I have no hesitation about wanting money; I would li ke to get as much wealth for the people of Manit oba from the in dustry as I could. I say that in sayin g that I would li ke to recognize what are the proper rights of the industry, the proper right of the people.

But the Member for Wolseley says you have to recognize th ose things, take whatever you want. And I suppose if you take 20 milli on, why not take 30 mi lli on, and if you take 30. why not take 40. So I can't assure Mr.

Kane, I can 't ass ure Don Munn, I can't assure the other mining people in the Province of Man itoba that the people, although I make a pretty good prediction that they won't fall for that kind of nonsense, but I can't assure them that the Leader of the Liberal Pa rty wi ll not someday be the Premier of the Province of Manitoba, in which cas e he will not take them over but he will tax everything that they've got. Now there's nobody who can give that type of assur ance. Even the Member for Lakeside couldn't give that type of assurance.

But I have continually explained, I have continually - - (Interjecti on) - - Mr. Speaker, the honourable member says it's a distortion, he would li ke to have, he would lik e to have the people of Manit oba believe, he would like to have the people of Manit oba belie ve that if he were the Premier he would get the money that the New Democr ats want from the mining industry by merely taxin g for it, lettin g them take the investment, them make the ris k, and in other w9rds his policy is; you make,

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-5-18
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 5th hansardpdf 18.pdf
Language	en
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