May 6, 1998

RESOURCE ESTIMATES COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of

Assembly.

CHAIR (Canning): Order, please!

Welcome to the Resource Estimates Committee meeting

for the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods.

First of all, though, I think the Committee members

have the minutes circulated. Before we deal with the minutes, perhaps starting

with Mr. Osborne we might want to introduce ourselves to our guests.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Tom Osborne, MHA for St. John's

South.

MR. WOODFORD: Rick Woodford, MHA for Humber

Valley.

MR. SHELLEY: Paul Shelley, MHA for Baie Verte.

MR. BARRETT: Percy Barrett, MHA for Bellevue.

MR. FITZGERALD: Roger Fitzgerald, MHA for

Bonavista South.

MS THISTLE: Anna Thistle, MHA for Grand Falls-Buchans.

CHAIR: My name is Perry Canning, I'm the MHA

for Labrador West.

First of all, I would like for the Committee to

take a look at the minutes, and we will get that little bit of business out of

the way now.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Minister, good evening, and welcome to

the Committee. I would like for you to take a couple of moments perhaps and have

your staff introduce themselves to the Committee.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is

nice to be here, a pleasure. I look forward to my exam that I will have in a

short period.

Mr. Harold Stanley is our Deputy Minister for

Forest Resources and Agrifoods. We also have Dr. Mohammed Nazir, Assistant

Deputy Minister for forestry and wildlife and inland fisheries. Also we have Mr.

Martin Howlett, who is the Assistant Deputy Minister for agrifoods. We have

Margaret Power who is our Director of Human Resources, Leonard Clarke who is our

Director of Financial Services, and David Wells who is our Director of

Communications. That is our staff here this evening.

CHAIR: If you would like, you can take a few

moments perhaps, if you would like to make an opening statement to the Committee

with respect to the progress of your department throughout the year, and what

you expect to be able to accomplish in the year coming. I would suggest too that

if your officials at any time react to questions to identify yourselves for the

purposes of Hansard. I think they are well enough used to our voices that they

probably know who we are as we speak. Minister, it is all yours.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is

a pleasure to be here. I just want to give in a few minutes just a quick

overview of the department and then I will hand it back to your, sir.

This department is responsible for managing the

resources of forestry, wildlife and agriculture. It also has a limited role in

inland fisheries and is responsible for bio-diversity conservation. These

resources contribute over $1.1 billion to the economy of Newfoundland and

Labrador with a value of shipments of over $600 million for the pulp and paper

industry and the sawmilling industry, a $200 million contribution from wildlife

and the inland fishery sector, and a $300 million income generated by the

agriculture and agrifood sector. In addition, these resources contribute to many

non-consumptive and intrinsic existence values which our society values highly,

and which is much enriched by the presence of these resources and their

influence on our outdoors.

The pulp and paper industry and sawmill industry

reached new peaks in the history of Newfoundland and Labrador this past year

with 741,000 tons of newsprint produced and exported to forty-five countries,

including North America. Over 85 million FBM of lumber was produced in this

Province and that was also a record for the Province. We are exporting these

products also to the U.S.A., Europe, South America, the Middle East and Asia.

About 30,000 people apply for domestic woodcutting permits in the Province, so

that tells you that there is a lot of interest in the Province and a lot of use

of the resource.

Our wildlife populations of moose and caribou are

at or near peak. There are 110,000 qualified hunters registered in this

Province, which is about 50 per cent of the adult population really.

Approximately one-third of this number get big game licenses every year. An

additional 120-odd outfitters depend on big game on the Island and in Labrador,

generating over $30 million worth of income. It is also estimated that about

300,000 Newfoundlanders participate in trout angling, and 20,000 to 25,000

salmon licenses are pretty well issued every year. Residents of this Province

have the highest participation rate in fishing and hunting as compared to the

rest of North America.

Our department, when it comes to forestry, has

moved towards a policy of value-added. Our wood supply is limited, on the Island

in particular, so we are harvesting approximately 2 million cubic feet per year.

We end up with trying to make sure that we value-add that wood supply. In the

last five years, in particular the last two or three years, our sawmilling

industry has grown because of a lot of cooperation, and also because of the

policy of the department in promoting to the pulp and paper companies the

exchange of our bigger wood to the sawmills and helping these sawmills grow. As

is evident, we have a number of new sawmills being looked at, integrated

sawmills, and a lot of job creation which is now going from what used to be more

seasonal and is now becoming longer term.

There is a transition in our forestry industry

which is becoming more secure and more stable, and we are taking better care of

managing the forest when it comes to our management of it. Our plans for

harvesting and our forestry management plans are all very carefully put

together. Our people meet with local interests to look at how we plan to deal

with our forest in each region, as required under the legislation, and it is

working out quite well.

It is a department where it has a heavy impact on

the economy in rural areas. In silviculture work in the past year we are

involved in eighty communities between the industry and the government when it

comes to investments in silviculture work. These projects were very helpful for

rural Newfoundland employment and also very helpful for reinvestment purposes to

stabilize and help grow our forest. It has been a big investment in the past

number of years and we look forward to seeing that continue in the future.

When it comes to agrifoods, we are going to have in

the next month or so an advertising awareness campaign which will be an emphasis

on produced right here in Newfoundland and Labrador. Our agrifoods sector is a

sector that is doing pretty well. We are looking at some new initiatives. The

milk marketing board, for example, just released a statement yesterday where we

had very good production and very good consumption, even though our population

base was a little bit less. That is an industry that has been doing well.

We have had a number of other areas where we see

some developments occurring in some smaller commodity sectors. Our agrifood

sector is one very rural Newfoundland and Labrador based, and it is one we are

working with the farmers very much on an ongoing basis. The Federation of

Agriculture is very involved. We have had them involved in developing this

awareness campaign, and we hope it will help pay off in the sense of procurement

and purchasing of Newfoundland products.

On the wildlife side, things are very interesting

there also. Our wildlife resources I believe are being managed as good as or

better than anywhere else in North America when it comes to our big game, and

our small game is now being concentrated on. We just recently hired a new

biologist who is going to concentrate on small game. A lot of good work is being

done there, a lot of research work to insure that we have sustainable resources

for the future. On the wildlife side we have been involved with setting up the

Wildlife and Inland Fish Advisory Council. That has been set up in the past

year. That has been working quite well and has been giving advice to our

department. It is made up of fifteen stakeholder groups from around the Province

that represent different interests, and that has been working quite well.

There are a few issues out there that we are

dealing with. Overall, this department is carrying out its mandate and its

resources are being expended, I think, in a positive manner. We are hoping to

see some new initiatives very shortly in the sawmill and agrifood sectors to be

realized.

The other thing I want to highlight is that Uncle

Sam in Goose Bay is doing really well. His product line is doing very well, I

believe, Doctor. We are going to have some samples of Uncle Sam's product line

for you very shortly, as a matter of fact. He has created I think probably

fifteen jobs now. He is doing very well, thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We will have some samples for

you very shortly.

Mr. Chairman, I think I am going to stop there

because I see a lot of intelligent members of this Committee on the other side

who want to ask me questions.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister. I call upon our

Vice-Chair, Mr. Shelley, the MHA for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I guess I will start with a few opening comments and ask a few specific

questions on the Estimates, because that is what we are here for. I will leave

the more general issues to the House of Assembly.

I am looking forward to seeing the results of Sam's

butcher shop. I am sure the minister will probably have another statement to let

us know how it is going. All jokes aside, we are glad for any industry, no

matter how small or big, and I am glad to hear he is doing well. As a matter of

fact, I hear that we have some good samples coming that we are going to test

very soon.

Now to get into a few comments and ask a few

questions. I am just going to talk about a few issues very generally and maybe

the minister can comment afterwards, and then I will ask a few questions. We are

always addressing the wood shortage. Of course, it is always a concern, and I

know it is not something that is solved overnight because trees do not grow

overnight. It is something that is long term. That is the type of plan that it

has to be when it comes to wood harvesting.

I have said it before - and I know it is a general

statement, but it is very true - that we are the masters of our own destiny when

it comes to the forest industry in this Province. We can't look to the federal

government. We handle it ourselves and that is why control for the long term has

to be looked at to the utmost so that we do not see things happen in the forest

industry that happened in the fishery. I know that has been said over and over,

but there is nothing wrong with warnings either. It was said long before I ever

said it.

Then again, on the same side we ourselves seem to

think we know a lot more about it, but the people who are in the industry, like

the fisherman in the boat who may not have the education as far as books and so

one goes, they do have a very good knowledge of the industry at the grass roots

level, the same as the loggers in the forest. I think a lot of the time they

feel left out. Of course, it is hard to include them, but you try different

approaches. I know the minister had tried some, and it is an ongoing battle, I

understand that. While the concerns are there, and as long as there is a wood

shortage in this Province, I say to the minister - no matter how long he is

there, or the next minister or whoever else -, it is going to be a long time

before it is fully addressed. There will continue to be an ongoing debate on the

wood shortage issue.

I will say this. The integrated sawmills I am very

interested in because of my own district, but also on a Province level, and I

know about this from growing up around the sawmill industry. I will give the

minister a little background. My father was a logger, so I have sat around and

listened to stories of loggers long before I listened to the stories of

fishermen or miners. Everybody thought it was mining in Baie Verte, but my

father was a logger, and I heard the stories for many years about the logging

industry. I have said it before, and used it long before I got into politics,

but I do still consider them to be the silent workers in the Province. They are

the type of fellows who go into the woods early in the morning and you don't

hear anything back from them. They very rarely complain or anything, they work

hard and say nothing, usually. They have been a very big part of the industry in

this Province. We talk about the fishery a lot, but they been there for a long

time.

In that respect, I will say to the minister, here

on record, that as far as the integrated sawmill industry goes I think it is on

the right track. I have said it here today in the House. It is something

positive and tangible. When you see somebody go to work, whether it is five

people or ten people, and did something new, where they are thinking

differently, that is good. Because in my own local area I saw the change of

attitude in my own loggers who are doing this project now, Minister. I commend

them here tonight too, by the way, for thinking like that, for coming to talk to

me, and of course they came to see you. You supported it and I must commend you

for that. It is the move in the right direction. It is one of the answers. It is

not the only solution but it is one of the answers. I am hoping that we will

move forward in that, not just in Baie Verte but right around the Province, as

we see changes in technology.

Another comment I have to make tonight, because

there have been lots of comments on it, is on mechanical harvesters. At least at

this opportunity you get a chance to say something without getting cut off with

half a statement like you do in the media, and even in the House of Assembly

when you get interrupted when you are saying something.

I have said it many times. I know, everybody knows,

every logger knows, I believe, that progress has to do with technology and

technological advances. There is no doubt about that, I have never said that we

should wipe all mechanical harvesters out of the Province or anything of that

nature. I know that is a part of progress. Things will change in the mills

around here and that is technology and so on. My only comment on it is this.

Like I say, questions like this type are in the House of Assembly. A lot of

times I am asked for the record what I think. As a matter of fact, the last few

questions I have asked of the minister in the House have been for the record, to

ask questions that I am being asked. I do not think they were out of line at

all, and the minister has answered them.

The use of mechanical harvesters is an issue that

concerns people. People at the bank are scared because they see the bank

machines coming out and they know they are going to lose their jobs. It is just

a natural human instinct when you see technology moving in that you fear for

your job. It isn't uncommon or anything. This is something that will continue to

be asked.

The one comment I will leave it with - because we

cannot go on all night with it, but you easily could, on mechanical harvesters -

is this. As people are replaced by whatever technology, if it is one job that is

replaced, there should be some kind of indication from the government and the

department - and I know you have on certain occasions; to the satisfaction of

loggers it is going to take a while - that there is something for them in the

industry down the road, that if they are coming out of one area that they can go

into another. That is the key ingredient to it all, and that is your challenge

as a minister of the day. In 1998 that is where we are, that is how the people

feel about it, so that is your challenge. I just wanted to make a comment on

that.

I will move on a little bit. Domestic woodcutting

is a concern for everybody in the industry. We have talked about this before,

that is something else that has to be addressed. It can be a real problem,

especially when you have a culture like we do, and especially where, with the

situation with the fishery, you get a lot more people in the woods. Certainly

that has been a big factor in domestic woodcutting. I can see it in my area.

There are more people in the woods now. You are saying excuse me when you are

walking through the woods now, if you in the woods for anything, you see so many

people in there. That is a factor that is new to you, and new to the Province,

really. The 20,000 fishermen who came out of the fishery have that time now, and

they go into the woods. They are either hunting or they are cutting wood for

themselves. That is a concern.

I am going to mention this one tonight. It might

sound like it is out of date but I think the minister will agree with me that it

is not. It is the Christmas tree industry. The research I have seen on that, of

us compared to Nova Scotia, and the potential for that, is something that the

department and the minister should look at. I know you are, but I will continue

with that thought. I did not study it as closely as I did last year actually but

it is phenomenal, the potential for Christmas trees. Some people think it is a

joke, but the amount of money in the Christmas tree industry in Nova Scotia - I

don't know if this is right - but it is tenfold to what it is in Newfoundland

right now. We can grow the industry just as fast if we do the technology and do

the processing properly in this Province. I was astounded by the numbers we saw

this year, when I researched it a bit, on the potential for Christmas tree

farming. I think that should be pursued aggressively.

I know there are some good developments on

agrifoods but I will leave most of that to my colleague here, because we are

split in this portfolio, as you know. He does wildlife and agrifoods, I just do

forestry, so I will stick to that.

I have two more comments to make, one on the

wildlife, although I will leave most of that to him also. Just to raise a

concern, I am pretty sure there are 300 new moose licenses on the Baie Verte

area. Just from a person who drives the road a lot, I see a lot less moose than

I saw two and three years ago. That is not scientific or anything, but I have

people tell me that all the time. I am just wondering how solid our information

is. I would like for you to make a comment on that later, if you could. How

solid is our information on the moose population that it warrants an increase of

that much? In my area alone, if I'm not mistaken, I could be corrected on it, I

think there is a 300 licence increase. With that many new licenses I hope the

information is accurate so that we are not doing something that we are going to

regret later on. That seems like a big number.

The last comment, before I ask a couple of

questions, is about the salmon licences. I know I asked that question in the

House. The minister was pursuing it at that time. I have not had an update. As a

matter of fact, I was going to ask that, but I can make a comment here. It is

not a big secret or anything. It is something a lot of people in the Province

were concerned about, about the eight salmon in New Brunswick and the one salmon

here. I would like to get an update on that if we could and see where that is

going. I think it is something that needs to be addressed.

The closer we get to that time of the year of

course, if you know salmon anglers, boy, I will tell you, they are the most

committed group to their love of salmon fishing. They are getting anxious all

the time. I get a scattered call now but I am sure that is going to increase,

and so will the minister's as we get closer to that. I think that needs to be

addressed.

Those are the ones I have listed just to make note

of here, but I know we will stick more to the Estimates, which is what I will do

now in the next couple of minutes, be specific on the Estimates. Those are the

main concerns that I can think of off hand. Maybe the minister can respond to a

few of those now before I ask a couple of questions.

CHAIR: Minister, before you go forward with the

answers I would just like to welcome to the gallery the MHA for Burin-Placentia

West, and two guests from the United States of America who are travelling here.

We welcome them, and it will be forever noted on the record of this House that

you have been here.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I

thank the Member for Baie Verte, the Opposition critic, for his thoughts and

some questions.

You talked about the wood supply situation. We have

a couple of full time critics out there who are continuously criticising, and

whatever you try to do to take care of a resource, they end up being pretty well

against it. Our wood supply is in a situation where if we had done all of this

forty or fifty years ago we would not have a problem. We have to take certain

measures to try to protect it, and we also have to take certain measures to

insure that we control what is happening out there, because if we do not control

it then we are going to have further problems on our hands. That is what we are

trying to do today.

In enforcement for example, we are getting tighter

on enforcement, in the sense of domestic woodcutting, permits and so on. In

certain areas we are looking more carefully now at some reductions, and

gradually have been trying to work with people to look at that resource to make

sure that we get as much benefit out of it as we can.

Our silviculture work is going very well and is

being done by a lot of professional people. When you look at the fact that most

of our forests re-grows on its own, then you see we have to get in and really

take care of it. A lot of the trees grow so close together that they have to be

thinned out. We do a lot of that pre-commercial thinning. It is a really good

investment and it also creates work. People who may get displaced in some other

part of the forest industry when it comes to, for example, any new technology,

such as harvesters, that is the type of work we think they could be doing. We

are going to be seeing in the next few weeks a number of announcements of more

work for this coming season.

As you indicated, when you have technology being

put forward in an industry, in one that has a tradition, which we have had for

decades in this Province, then it is tough business and it is not easy. At the

same time, we have a transition going on in our forest industry where we are

getting much more value out of our wood supply than we did before. There is a

year-round supply of wood needed, and in order for these new sawmills to keep

moving they need that supply. They also need to deal with the technologies as

best they can to keep them operating on a competitive basis so that their

businesses are sustainable. There are other opportunities there for people who

get displaced. One of the things I think this debate has done is help focus

everybody towards trying to get organized, maybe, in an effort to look at those

opportunities.

The other thing is that the introduction of

technology, for example with the pulp and paper companies, is one that should be

also dealt with at the collective bargaining table. In the past it has been, and

it should still be, and it will be in the future. Our department is getting

involved to a point, but the collective bargaining process is where a lot of

this can be dealt with. Most of it has been, in the sense of the attrition

planning that the companies do. I think in the case of one of the companies they

have retired some people early to try to deal with that as they go through

attrition, so they are not laying off younger loggers.

There are ways of doing it. There are some present

mechanisms that are working. There are two or three areas of the Province that

have probably been harder hit and I think that is problematic, but we are

working with the companies. We have invited the Department of Human Resources

and Employment in to help do some workforce adjustment. I talked to Julie

Bettney, the minister of that department, again today. She is going to work with

us to see if we can work with the companies and look at some sort of plan for

people who may get affected. Like I said, there is silviculture work that could

be do, which we are doing, we are investing in. There may be other work coming

about; the companies are going to be trying some pilot projects and so on. We

may be able to see that help out a great deal.

The other thing is that the bigger sawmills are

expanding and they are going to be creating some more employment. I know a

couple of cases where the bigger saw mills have taken some of their loggers and

retrained them. If we can have a more organized plan for dealing with

displacement, and a focus on it, I think it can really help ease the transition,

and that we will have a much more solid forestry business coming up. That is

going to be our aim, to get that sort of adjustment program through the help of

the Department of Human Resources and Employment to get it set up. We think that

should be done with the collective bargaining process and it should be done with

the Department of Human Resources and Employment. We are having a meeting

Friday, as a matter of fact, with one of the community groups to discuss this

idea, so we can move ahead.

The other idea is that the all-around forestry

worker has been talked about. You just cannot be a harvester any more. If you

want to stay in one part of the forest industry when it is changing, we all have

to be able to adjust to change. It isn't easy, but we are going to promote that

idea, and the companies are promoting that idea.

You mentioned the Christmas tree industry. That is

an industry that I think is about $500,000 in this Province now around there.

WITNESS: (Inaudible) in the agriculture side.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, the agriculture side. We

also have some interesting work being done on Christmas wreaths over in New

Brunswick. It is up to a $13 million industry over there now. They are using the

tips of trees, I think. We are going to look at potentially getting some

proposals out there to see if people are interested because that is gone up

there very quickly. It is a nice resource, rural economy based, and we think it

could be something that could add to our agricultural industry in rural parts of

the Province.

As to the moose licenses in Baie Verte, I am going

to ask the good doctor, the assistant deputy, to give us a thought on that.

DR. NAZIR: The question was whether our

locations are based on good knowledge, and I would like to assure the Member of

the House of Assembly that they are. For the last four years we have been

spending close to $600,000 a year on updating the big game inventories. This was

after a long period when there were no inventories and service. Four years ago

government decided that the information was so outdated that the allocations

were not reliable. Therefore, we were given the special allocation.

Normally, this would have happened if this was a

historical trend, (inaudible) periodically (inaudible) service, but in this

year's budget $300,000 has been provided, and we are hoping that will continue

on a continuing basis. That way we will have a cycle of service. Every eight to

ten years the same management district will be re-inventoried; that way we will

never fall behind by fifteen years. We will always have that cycle of

inventories.

In certain areas, if there is a major report of

lesser populations or certain variations, or higher populations where we need to

harvest more, then we have the flexibility to go in and (inaudible) those areas.

Our cycle is mostly complete. I think there are a few more areas which need to

be surveyed and then we will get into the new cycle.

MR. SHELLEY: Can I ask a question on that? The

research, you say you spent $600,000 last year, is that right?

DR. NAZIR: Yes.

MR. SHELLEY: You are going to spend $300,000

this year. That is on research surveys. Can you just tell me in a practical

sense what you mean? How do you do those research surveys? Are they aerials

surveys or (inaudible).

DR. NAZIR: They are aerial based by helicopters

and fixed wings. There is a scientific methodology. There are lines drawn up,

transects laid out, and on those transects the helicopters or fixed wings fly.

There are two officers sitting in the aircraft and there is a technique. They

count them. They are generally counted when the snow is on the ground. That way

they can see. Then there is a correction factor built in after a fair bit of

scientific research, that there will be a certain number of animals which could

still not be seen, despite the fact there is snow. With the experimentation and

ground checks wildlife biologists have worked out a methodology which is

recognized throughout North America as a reliable method of measurement.

On top of that, we also have returns from the

hunters, the successes and so forth, and there is a methodology. In fact, when

we did not have these surveys and information for the last four years we mostly

depended on those hunter returns. There is a methodology, again developed in

North America and the rest of Canada, which is relatively reliable but not as

good as actual surveys. We have been using that in the past. For the last four

years we have been using both. That means one is a check over the other.

MR. SHELLEY: That is pretty accurate research,

is it, you are saying?

DR. NAZIR: That is correct.

MR. SHELLEY: I did not know how it works, but

it is interesting to find out.

MR. AYLWARD: If you want a further briefing we

can have a couple of biologists do that, because it is interesting. I have had a

number of members asking about it actually, for different regions. It is good to

be able to check and see how they do it. It is interesting.

On the salmon licenses, I want to make a comment on

that. We are meeting with the federal minister next week, Anderson, to discuss a

number of issues, and one of them will be the salmon management plans for

Atlantic Canada. Because the plan that the federal minister has announced for

New Brunswick has also got a reaction in New Brunswick. The eight tags that they

have allowed for New Brunswick, I think it is on about twenty-nine rivers. There

are fifty-one rivers open, and twenty-nine subject to an in-season review. They

are allowed to take eight.

Basically, the provincial minister of inland

fisheries and the ASF and other salmon conservation groups have now set up what

you would call a lottery. If you bring back your eight tags at the end of the

season, just do catch and release, you are allowed to put your name into a hat

or some system, and you may be able to win a utility vehicle. That is what is

set up in New Brunswick. The federal minister has announced a program of eight

salmon, and the provincial minister and his officials and the salmon federation

and other salmon groups have announced their own program of catch and release.

They are trying to get people to bring their tags back because of the concern.

There is a problem. Because if that is the way we

are going to manage this resource in Atlantic Canada we have a problem on our

hands. We are having a meeting with the federal minister next week, and we have

indicated our problems with the way we think they are basing their decisions.

If they are going to base them on the fact that

they have seven salmon in Quebec and those rivers run into New Brunswick, so

therefore they have to try to stay close to that number even though the science

does not tell them that they should, then we have a big problem on our hands.

Because if we are going to operate on science over here... We don't have enough

science in this Province when it comes to our salmon rivers, and that is the

biggest issue I think that we are going to face in the next little while. We

have no science for trout in Labrador, and it is DFO's responsibility. We have

the greatest trout resource probably on the planet in Labrador.

We have to have some serious discussions with the

federal minister, because this is a resource we have that a lot of people would

love to have on the planet. It is one we need to take better care of, but when

they have the federal jurisdiction then we have to get them to spend more

resources when it comes to science, in particular. If you are going to manage

the resource you have to know what is going on.

On the West Coast of the Province, for example,

five of the rivers in Bay St. George had better results last year than they did

the year before. The decisions made on the opening and the allocations were

based on other rivers in the Province. On the other side of the Province they

were having trouble, and what they do is they just say: All the rivers are going

to suffer because we have one set of rivers that are not doing very well. When

you have 176 scheduled salmon rivers we have a problem on our hands if we

haven't got much science. We have science on about nineteen rivers in the

Province. If they have one river here that we have a counting fence on, then: If

there are ten there then we are just going to average it out. I mean, rivers are

very much independent, on their own.

That is where we are. We are going to have a

meeting with him next week. We are, right now, I think at one and three with the

mid-season review. One salmon with a grilse, I believe, up front?

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, for the Island, on the

Island.

MR. SHELLEY: Any consideration or any

indications from him yet that they may increase the amount for Newfoundland from

one to two or three?

MR. K. AYLWARD: There is no indication.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. K. AYLWARD: Right now it is a mid-season

review that they will do in July. If they deem that to be okay, that the numbers

are good, then they will give the other three, so you could have four yet. You

could have four salmon in Newfoundland. It depends on the mid-season review.

MR. SHELLEY: Just to comment on that. I hate to

use this comparison, but you are going to hear it a lot anyway, but the food

fishery, in a funny sort of way, had the same problem with the cod fishery. If

you are inconsistent with inconclusive scientific research it bothers people,

and that is where the root of all this is lying in. In a funny sort of way it is

the same thing again. You hear about rivers in New Brunswick, and then they do

not have enough evidence to tell you exactly what is going on there, or exactly

what is going on here, but all of a sudden Newfoundland has the worse end of it

again. They cause more problems, the federal management of it, and I understand

the dilemma you are in. Unless it is cleared up or brought a bit closer to what

New Brunswick is doing, then there are going to be problems with it.

MR. K. AYLWARD: I know. It affects the tourism

industry, because we have people making a living off it. We have 1,000 people, I

think, who are guides now in the Province, plus the outfitting industry that is

trying to make a living. It is kind of hard to advertise. If you are going to

advertise for people to come to Atlantic Canada to go fishing, where are you

going to go if you are coming in? Some people are catch-and-release, but other

people are not. If they have an opportunity then they may go to other locations.

It is a problem.

The biggest problem, though, is a lack of science.

This has blown that wide open as far as I am concerned, and we are taking an

aggressive approach to get this matter dealt with in the future. Some of the

debate over watershed management really is coming down to scientific

information. Because watershed management has really been proposals from local

groups who are concerned about the fact that there is not enough science, that

there has not been enough science, and they wanted to help out. It is going to

be hard to take that further unless we get DFO doing the right resources when it

comes to the science effort.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Shelley.

Mr. Woodford.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A couple

of observations and a couple of questions as well. Minister, one of the

questions is on land consolidation. It is under the heading Land Development,

under Soil and Land Management, 4.1.04. The agricultural land consolidation

program has been in for some time. Where was that land purchased this year, what

part of the Province? Still on the East Coast?

MR. K. AYLWARD: It was on the East Coast. I am

going to give Martin Howlett, the Assistant Deputy Minister, an opportunity just

to give a little more detail. It was on the East Coast, and mostly in the St.

John's area, the Avalon area, I think.

MR. HOWLETT: Yes, that is the East Coast in the

St. John's agriculture zone. That is the only one we have been implementing a

land consolidation program into. Each year, I guess the past three or four

years, we have had $300,000 to buy different parcels of land from people who are

adversely affected by the zone and who want to sell their land, or farmers who

are retiring. We buy the land that has to be granted land and we convert it to

lease, and we release it for agricultural production.

MR. WOODFORD: (Inaudible) primarily now this

year. Was that primarily in the Kilbride-Goulds area?

MR. HOWLETT: No, it depends on the

applications. It is done by application. Each year we get x number of

applications and then we negotiate. The reality services in Government Services

and Lands does the negotiations for the department. They actually do the

purchasing of the property. It could be down in Windsor Heights, Torbay,

Portugal Cove, Goulds, Kilbride, Logy Bay and so forth. It is all done by

applications. We take the applications in number. We do not have enough to

purchase all the land that we get applied for, but we take them each year based

on what we can do with $300,000.

MR. WOODFORD: What acreage was purchased this

year?

MR. HOWLETT: The average price per acre has

been somewhere around $4,000 to $4,500. We do not have enough to buy big

acreages anymore. One time in that subhead there was probably in excess of $1

million.

MR. WOODFORD: (Inaudible) $4,500 per acre.

MR. HOWLETT: Per acre.

MR. WOODFORD: You are leasing it back for what?

MR. HOWLETT: We go out and ask for proposals.

We will set a minimum price. It depends on when we do an assessment of the land:

the number of acres cleared, the number of acres suitable to clear, the number

of acres not cleared, and the number of acres that might be bog or wet. We will

do an assessment, set a minimum price, then we will ask for proposals, and we

will lease the land out based on the best viable proposal.

MR. WOODFORD: Your figures here and the figures

that you have quoted in regards to purchase, it isn't just cultivated land, it

is total?

MR. HOWLETT: We will buy the total land.

MR. WOODFORD: That is the average for total?

MR. HOWLETT: That will be that average for the

cleared. Your others will be somewhat less, your non-cleared, and so forth, but

that is roughly the average for good, cleared productive land, about $4,500.

MR. WOODFORD: Has the department given any

consideration to expanding that - I have asked this question before, over the

years - to other parts of the Province?

MR. HOWLETT: We have certainly talked about it,

but again it all comes down to budget allocations. We do not have enough here

now to satisfy the need just in one area. It happened to be done in that area

because in the Goulds, Kilbride, or St. John's area we call it, that is gazetted

ADA, agricultural development area. The only other one gazetted is in the

Wooddale area. We have about another eighteen in the Province that are

designated but not legally gazetted. We have roughly twenty ADAs.

MR. WOODFORD: The other reason for it here

would be the shortage of land overall, I guess, and to make sure it stays in

agriculture.

MR. HOWLETT: I guess it goes back to the land

freeze. That is what it is referred to. We call it the land zone. That started

in 1973 (inaudible). There were alterations made to it after that on a number of

occasions, and it was in 1996 that a land consolidation program came into

effect. As you can appreciate, we had a lot of catch-up to do, because we went

from 1973 to 1986 with the property protected for agriculture and only allowed

to be used for agricultural development with no land consolidation program. The

land consolidation program came in in 1986. We are still, I guess, in an

catch-up situation in terms of demand on the program.

MR. WOODFORD: I noticed that under your heading

for limestone services, 4.1.02, you budgeted $284,000 and you spent $252,00. You

have $284,000 in again this year, which is good. Although I suppose it is

primarily now to build up and keep land in a good state for cultivation

purposes. Because there is not a lot of new land development now, is there? Or

is there? Do you have any figures on the acreages (inaudible) land development?

MR. HOWLETT: I could not tell you the acreage,

but last year our land development was up somewhat. I guess it was up for

probably two reasons. The first is under the safety nets program, and that

program applies to a non-supply managed commodities. Some (inaudible) groups get

small amounts of land for land clearing. The other one was when the federal fee

freight assistance program was eliminated by the federal government, they made a

payment to farmers up front. Some of the farmers took those dollars and put them

into land development and developed more land for forage so that they would have

less reliance on imported forage and grains. Those would be the two reasons. The

number appears this year as the same because we anticipated the same thing

happening this year. There are some more lands being cleared through some of

those dollars and probably some more through the other program.

That is for bulk limestone only. We do not get into

bagged limestone, only for the Labrador part. We will ship bagged limestone to

Labrador, and last year we shipped very little, I think probably a couple of car

loads. It is mainly bulk limestone at $25 per ton. That price is right across

the Province. Everybody pays $25.

MR. WOODFORD: Just an observation, Minister,

and you can make a couple of comments if you wish after on the integrated

sawmills in the Province and the increase in lumber production.

I just did not get the figures that you had there

tonight, the increase in the lumber production in the Province, but I know in my

area I can speak for the integrated system and what has been happening there. It

has been a real plus for the area, for the whole region, not only just for the

community of Cormack in which I live, and that is primarily where the integrated

system is working really well now. Paul mentioned about the wood supply shortage

and everything over the years. It is sad when you think about what could have

been done over the years, and when I look at other provinces and see that there

are probably enough chips lying on the ground in Quebec to keep the three

paper-mills in this Province going. They are just lying on the ground, wasted,

and we are talking about a shortage of fibre here in the Province.

We never had total utilization of the resource over

the years. When you look at what is happening now, it is almost unreal when you

see what has happened in just twelve short months with regards to the total

usage of the integrated system. In the South Brook area there are five or six

sawmills, and here you are with the slabs over the bank, sawdust over the bank,

the planer shavings over the bank. When you go up to Cormack and go through Don

Wells' mill, they have a tractor-trailer going twenty-four hours a day just

hauling chips into the mill in Stephenville. When it isn't, you have them

hauling the sawdust to the farms for bedding. You have trucks going out steady

with load after load of finished lumber going to market outside of the Province.

When I had the Department of Works, Services and

Transportation for the first time in the history of Cormack put a half load

limit on there about a month ago, I got a phone call. There were twenty-two

tractor-trailer loads of logs out on the Bonne Bay Road waiting to get in, all

from the Roddickton area. Now you talk about -

MR. SHELLEY: A great problem.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, a great problem. It went on

in the morning, here they were to come in, and they saw the sign there. You talk

about stopping progress. At the same time, look at the total utilization of a

product, of a resource. It is so good to see. I have not talked to him lately,

but there was even talk of the bark, the planer shavings and the sawdust going

for hog fuel to Kruger, or to the hospital in Corner Brook. It is unreal, that

total utilization of the resource.

You were talking about one for Baie Verte. I think

it is a wonderful thing, but I would go a little further in saying that the

licenses and the quotas that are issued should probably come under the

integrated mill itself. They should be tied in somehow. Either one permit issued

or the permit issued to the individuals involved there, but they must sell to

that integrated system. We have gone for too long showing this wastage and so

on. We have proof now of what can happen.

The mill in Cormack last year closed down on

Christmas Eve. They were in doing repairs on Boxing Day and they started right

on from there. The week after that they had the full crew back, and I would say

that they will be working for eleven and a half or twelve months this year. One

time in the mills you would get a few months work and that was it, close her

down. Because once the frost comes, the old push carriages, you would not use

them, you would just close everything down and that is it, everything would lie

there. Now it is so good to see the total utilization of the resource. I think

it is the way to go.

Not only that, but what I am noticing too, and I am

sure your department is noticing, is you are getting the cooperation of the

paper companies. They have too, they must. Because now you see them hanging off

ships over in Germany somewhere, or a few Greenpeace running around on the decks

of a paper boat somewhere with nothing on, trying to get attention, and drawing

attention to the environmental aspects and what is happening in the industry.

When Kruger and Abitibi and those big companies can

come and say: Look, we are falling in line, we are playing the game, we are

doing things right, and we are utilizing everything, I think that is good for

the paper companies, it is good for the extra jobs in the communities, it is

good for extra exports going out, and it is good for the whole economy. I think

the paper companies are finally realizing that. I notice out our way they are

doing it. Not only in exchange (inaudible) one time, you come and say: We will

give your fellow there 5,000 cubic metres to keep his mill going, but we want it

up in Howley, we want it back somewhere else. They are still doing that too. I

see now when they see that they are going to get the chips for good fibre to

their mill, I think it is going to benefit everybody.

There are a lot of other things I could say with

regards to the paper mill industry and the woods in general, but I will just

leave it at that, but I just wanted to make that comment. Because it is a good

one, it is a growing one. We have one about to open in the Hampden area now, an

example of what I said earlier with regards to the small mills all going through

one mill. We had five operators out there. Instead of issuing a permit to each

one of them now, we have issued one permit to the integrated mill operator, and

I think they have pretty well come to an agreement on that. I have not been

talking to them lately, but I think they have finally come to an agreement to

issue the one permit. They are all going to work for that mill operator into

that one system, Fred Osmond of Hampden, and that is about to open I think in

another two or three weeks. It is another example of coming together. They also

have an allocation from Kruger there now as well, so it benefits everybody.

Here is another example. They used to finish in

October because they could not get down to Chause Brook, and now they have an

allocation for a winter cut up on the Hampden road, so they can go pretty well

all year. Anyway, that is enough. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Woodford.

Minister.

MR. K. AYLWARD: What you just described is

exactly what the situation is. Unfortunately, just look at the transition we

have had to take to get here, the wastage of some of that wood supply. It takes

some time to get it right, and it takes you a few years to get a process in

place, but there is some rapid progress being made now. Look at the fact that

Kruger is putting in a wood chip handling facility, and it is just about ready.

I think it will be ready in July of this summer. Will it be ready this summer?

Yes.

When the pulp and paper companies do not need to be

pushed, and our policy has been to move towards that and to get them to do it,

they have been very much coming up to the door and saying that they see they

should do it, for a lot of reasons, including environmental ones. There is also

the fact that if there is a good stable sawmill industry, which will provide

them with wood chips, that means they are going to have stability for the

future. It is the full utilization of what is occurring with our wood supply.

Those sawmills are using really small timber, timber that did not get used

before. It is absolutely amazing the size of the timber going through the

sawmills.

MR. WOODFORD: (Inaudible) a couple of fellows

now going around the Province. I know there is one other mill in my area now

that is going to go out to the saw mills to take some of the slabs. They can

sell now as much as 300,000 feet to 400,000 feet of this one by four or one by

six or one by three, just four or five feet long. They are now going around.

They have markets now for 300,000 feet or 400,000 board feet of that alone. They

are out around the Bonavista area now doing the same thing, looking and just

going around for the mill.

MR. K. AYLWARD: That is right. That is amazing.

In the last few years, given the history with the licenses that were allocated

years ago, the companies have come around. Also, the policy of the department -

well before I got there, but in the last few years - has been to push these

companies very hard to start doing this. Dr. Nazir deserves a lot of credit for

getting the companies to move ahead, and I would like to thank him for helping

the progress move along. Because convincing the companies with the levers that

we have, given the licenses that they have had, has not been the easiest thing

to do, but that has changed also. The introduction of the forestry act in 1990

has helped this industry come a long way also. Given the fact that there has

been a very strong push by the Province and also the fact that the companies

have responded well, we are now seeing a lot of exciting things happen with our

wood supply that did not happen before.

One of the other things that is occurring is we

have hardwood operations being looked at now for the first time in many years.

In years, we have never had them looked at before. The companies, in particular

Kruger, I know of two or three that have worked out arrangements so that certain

types of hardwoods can be taken and some value-added can be done. I think one of

them is up in your district, I say to the MHA for Humber Valley. We can see

there we are going to get some value out of a wood supply that we hardly used

and we just wasted. It is very positive to see.

The other thing that is being looked at by some of

the bigger integrated sawmills is co-generation of electricity. There is an

evaluation under way now for the integrated sawmills to look at the use of their

wastage, to see if they can use that to do some electricity. That is happening

in other provinces. There is no reason why it cannot happen here. Again, you

would not have seen it a few years ago. You are seeing all of that occur now and

it is rapid. We are really catching up and it is really good to see. The

value-added of our wood supply is starting to go right through the roof and it

is good to see.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Fitzgerald.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I

would just like to open by saying that when you think of Bonavista South the

first thing you think about is the fishery. I would say probably in excess of 70

per cent of my district is directly related to the fishery. How I should phrase

it is that the logging industry and the agricultural industry is very important

there as well, in the Lethbridge area for agriculture and then all the way down

the Peninsula for logging. There are probably more small sawmill licenses on the

Bonavista Peninsula than there are anywhere else in Newfoundland, if I were to

guess. I don't know how many are there, but there are certainly well in excess

of 100, maybe closer to 200, sawmill licenses.

There is one thing that I think that we have to

look at when we talk about those new sawmill ventures. I have two of those

there, Jamestown Lumber and Bloomfield Lumber. Bloomfield Lumber is presently

using a new type of milling operation. It may be the only one in Newfoundland, I

say to the Deputy Minister, the chipper decanter, where there are absolutely no

slabs. It is all done with knives instead of saws. Those people are sawing logs

right down to a three inch, probably even smaller, and making some very good

products from it. The problem they have is with the bark. We do not seem to be

able to escape either year but that we don't have one or two major fires there.

Thanks to the response from your department last year you probably saved one of

those mills.

I think Jamestown Lumber probably goes through the

experience almost every year of having this bark catch fire and cause some

problems there, but he responds to it in a very professional way. For the most

part there it is a problem but it is being dealt with. Hopefully, one of these

days we will see something that we can do with some of this bark. That is about

the only thing that is not being used. I understand that there is even some

exchange of wood products now between the paper mills and the sawmills in that

particular area, which is encouraging to see as well.

I know the former minister and I talked about some

of the problems with forestry and sawmill operators. He talked about maybe one

way of solving the problem was to have the sawmill operators own the permits for

cutting. I totally disagree with that. I am a firm believer that millers should

mill and loggers should log. There are many people in my district who have

invested a lot of money in the logging industry and they are finding their quota

reduced more every year. Sometimes it is frustrating to see those people unable

to make a living when we see the sawmillers controlling many licences. I am not

so sure if that is the way that it should work.

As far as reducing the number of sawmills, maybe we

should give the sawmill operators some kind of assurance that if they don't

square up their timber - because I think they should be encouraged to sell the

logs round, and they can get just as good a price for them. A lot of them are

reluctant to do that because they are in fear that if they don't use their

sawmills they will lose their sawmills. They have been promised things in the

past and it has not worked out and some of them have had some very bad

experiences. Maybe if we could assure some of those sawmill operators that if

they did sell their product, their fibre round, then they would not lose their

sawmill licences. I feel that is the only reason why a lot of them square up

their timber, and as you know this makes the mess of slabs around and sawdust,

when it all can be used differently, and probably made into a much more sellable

product at the mill itself.

Minister, going back to wildlife, has there been

any increase in the number of moose licences that have been issued this year?

MR. K. AYLWARD: I will defer to Dr. Nazir. I

think there has been. There are twenty-eight (inaudible) resident and

non-resident. Go ahead, Doctor.

DR. NAZIR: Yes, there have been a number of

increases both in caribou and moose in certain areas, but in some areas they

have gone down. Overall there have been increases in both. I have the

information here. In fact, this information was published in the application

guide, area by area, how much each area increased by both moose and caribou.

For example, if I go in, say, moose, in the case of

St. Anthony there is no change, in the case of Portland Creek there was an

increase of a hundred. In Area Nos. 3 and 3A there was no change. In Area 4,

which is Taylor's Brook, there was a reduction of 240. In the next five areas

there is no change. The next two had reductions, the next one is 300 up, the

next one 100 up. It was like that. When you add them up, the minuses and pluses,

overall there was an improvement.

MR. FITZGERALD: How many extra licenses were

granted to outfitters, Dr. Nazir?

DR. NAZIR: If you would bear with me for a

minute, I will have to get this information.

MR. STANLEY: Probably I could just make one

comment - while Dr. Nazir is digging that out - on the sawmill policy you talked

about. We are developing a new sawmill policy to try and reflect this change

taking place in the industry. Right now if a sawmiller sells his logs to an

integrated mill then we will give him credit as having sawed his logs for the

purposes of retaining his licence. If he sells his logs to an integrated mill

and it is done, and we know about, he comes in, I mean, we will do that now.

Obviously that is the direction our policy is moving in, to try and get all of

these logs going to integrated mills.

As you will appreciate, especially down in the area

where you are, there is a long history here, and a lot of people who have done

things in a certain way for a lot of years. We all agree the direction we have

to go in. We just have to do it in a way that hopefully won't result in too much

hardship on too many people. We are moving in that direction. As I say, we do

now recognize that if someone brings their logs to an integrated operator then

we will give them credit, if he indeed has a sawmill license.

MR. FITZGERALD: You will probably have a little

bit of trouble gaining the people's trust on that. Because you know that in the

past people, if they did not use their sawmills for two years or something, they

lost their sawmills. It might take a little bit of getting used to there, or

going out and approaching them in the right way, because I think a lot of them

might be a little bit reluctant. You know about that, you know the people there,

Mr. Stanley, very well.

DR. NAZIR: I have the information you asked

for. In 1998 there were 2,997 moose allocated to the outfitters for the

non-residents.

MR. FITZGERALD: Two thousand nine hundred and

ninety-seven moose.

DR. NAZIR: Two thousand nine hundred and

ninety-seven moose. This is approximately 10 per cent of the total allocation.

That means the other 90 per cent went to the residents. In the case of caribou

it was 1,458, which is approximately 25 per cent of the total allocation to the

non-residents. This was an increase of 318 moose and 330 caribou for a total of

648 big game to the outfitters.

MR. FITZGERALD: For this year?

DR. NAZIR: For 1998.

MR. FITZGERALD: For 1998. What percentage is

that of the total increase?

DR. NAZIR: The total for 1997 was 3,803 and the

total for 1998 is 4,455, so that is...

MR. FITZGERALD: I am talking about the total

percentage this year. What percentage of the increase this year went to

outfitters?

DR. NAZIR: I don't have that percentage readily

available here, but our total moose allocation was 28,320.

MR. FITZGERALD: Can you just give me the total

increase for licenses this year, and then give me the total increase that

outfitters got of the total number of licenses?

DR. NAZIR: I don't have the percentage there,

but in terms of the increase I can tell you that there are 652 animals over

3,800. So that is about one-sixth, about a 17 per cent increase.

MR. FITZGERALD: A 17 per cent increase, okay.

Under the new rules, the new change that the minister read a ministerial

statement about here a few weeks ago, where, Minister, you allowed the visually

impaired to now take

part in moose hunting with a designated hunter, does that

also include the physically disabled?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, it includes the physically

disabled. Everybody. You have to go through the hunter capability test, the

education part of the program, and our department will be making the changes to

the program. They also have to deal with the federal arm, I believe, of the

program with the Department of Justice federally to make some changes. We will

be doing it similarly to what they do in New Brunswick where they allow for the

designated hunter for a person who qualifies to be able to go under the program.

MR. FITZGERALD: It does?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: First of all, looking through

this book here, The Economy: The Future is in Our Hands , I thank the

minister for including a family from my district. Probably one of the biggest

root crop growers in Newfoundland and Labrador, the Peddles from Lethbridge.

One of the things that the Peddles, as well as

other farmers, continually talk about is the problem where they have to compete

with vegetables from other provinces arriving here at a time when they should be

getting premium prices for their own. One of the things they have suggested that

might be able to be done is if the government instituted some kind of policy

that we once used for the sawmill industry. That was where we allotted

sawmillers a sum of money to allow them to buy lumber and store it, and have the

sawmillers pay back that money - I don't know if there was ever any interest

charged or not - and be able to sell it a time when it would demand a higher

price and when there was a demand for it.

I am a firm believer that that might be able to

work very well with the agricultural industry as well. None of them can afford

to take their vegetables and store them without having some form of cash flow,

but I think it is something the government probably should seriously look at. If

we do not want to interfere with product coming in from other provinces - when

we look at the direction that we are going in now, when we are tearing walls

down and opening up doors - then maybe we might be able to look at providing

those people with funding where they can hold their vegetables to a certain

time, then have them sold. Even if we charged them a small interest rate I don't

think there would be any argument with that. I wonder if the minister has given

any thought to that, or if he has been approached with that idea before.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Roger. We have been

giving some thought on how do we get more procurement with our farmers and their

products into the procured system, especially with the bigger wholesalers. We

have had some meetings on that issue, as a matter of fact, with some of the

bigger wholesalers to try to identify the problem areas.

I am going to ask Marty Howlett to comment on it,

but one of the things that was tried I think a number of years ago was some cold

storage for some regions. It was tried to see if we could get our vegetable

producers, in particular, to look at doing it, so that at certain times of the

year, when there is a big demand, that they would be able to guarantee to the

bigger wholesalers that they would be able to have a supply, which has been the

biggest problem identified to us. I will give it over to my assistant deputy for

agrifoods so that he can give you some further thoughts on this. It is a good

suggestion.

MR. HOWLETT: What you are talking about is an

advance crop payment program, that farmers could draw money down on the crop

that is in storage. In the past we had, with the Farm Loan Board, operating

monies available which worked on the same premise that farmers would borrow in

the spring, say for fertilizer, seed and so forth, and pay it back in the fall.

We do not have that program now. We did look at an advance crop payment program.

We did have some storage programs over the years for assisting us, for vegetable

storage, with the proper cooling facilities and so forth.

One of the problems we run into is a lot of farmers

do not have adequate holding facilities to hold a crop to bring it probably into

January, February and March. In your area some do have some pretty good storage,

but overall that is not the case. When you get the crop ready for market in

October, November, everybody wants to sell their crop at the same time.

In some of those meetings the minister referred to

that we have had with some of the bigger wholesalers and the bigger food chains,

what they are talking about is the continuity of supply. Good quality product,

Grade A product. They are prepared to do business with any groups of farmers or

any large farmer who can bring them ample supply. There are not much interested

in doing business with a bunch of pick-ups or what not backing up to their door,

because they are not set up that way these days. They are set up for big trucks,

tractor-trailers, and so forth.

That is a possibility we could look at into the

future, of how to get farmers organized. We made attempts at it. There have been

several attempts, as you are probably aware of, over the years, for marketing

boards and so forth. The vegetable one just did not get off the ground. There

were two attempts tried, and there was VMAL, the Vegetable Market Associates

Limited, which you can probably recall, and certainly Mr. Woodford can, and a

lot of these things just did not get off. It comes down to a point of

organization. That point was driven home with the meetings we had with the

minister and with those people. It has been properly organized so that you can

deal with them ten, eleven or twelve months of the year.

We have our marketing people and that is what we

are trying to do now, to look at that. Not the marketing board system, but some

kind of system where it is organized, there can be a continuity of supply, good

quality and so forth. When I say good quality, I mean this. When they get

product in, they either want it done, packaged in their bags, five pound, ten

pound and so forth. There is not a lot now dealing in fifty pound or hundred

pound sacks these days.

That is the kind of things we are working on, to

see if we can change the system through that process and that opportunity,

because we have tried a lot of the others. Unfortunately, the vegetable one is

one that just did not take off in some of this organized marketing like the

others. That is where we are with it right now.

MR. FITZGERALD: I will also mention something,

and I am not going to say much about it because I don't know very much about it,

and that is the situation this year where a lot of our farmers have been

disallowed from drawing unemployment insurance. Many of the farming families

drew unemployment insurance because, as you know, there are a great number of

weeks there, and months even, when farmers do not have an income.

This year many of them have been faced with having

to pay back monies that they received from the unemployment insurance or the EI

program and have now been disqualified. I don't know how many farmers are going

to go out of business because of this. Has this been a problem that has been

raised with you, Mr. Howlett or with you, Mr. Minister? Are you aware of it? It

is something we should work with the federal government on, I think.

MR. K. AYLWARD: No, this is the first time. I

tell you, I did not realize it. I have not had any inquiries on it. This is the

first we have heard of it. We would certainly like to hear more about it if

there is a problem.

MR. FITZGERALD: It has been a problem. I have

received several calls, and I know that there has been an individual who has

taken up the cause for those farmers somewhere out around the Bay

Roberts-Shearstown area. It is a problem.

I will move on to the next item, Mr. Minister. I

have been waiting patiently for you to announce our farmers versus moose

problem, and I still have not heard it. I expect every day to hear a ministerial

statement. The problem can be solved within our own hands here, I don't think we

have to depend on anybody else to solve it. It is a major problem. We are soon

going to be up to the time of the year again, when farmers are going to be very

anxious to hear what your department has done. You have had meetings, you have

made your intentions known here in the House, but still we have not heard

anything positive. Can you tell me when we can expect to hear that or what you

will be announcing?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you for that scathing

attack. I am having a hard time getting up here now to answer that question. No,

I do welcome the comment. We are, on two fronts, trying to deal with that

problem. The Assistant Deputy Minister for Agrifoods can give you a quick update

on where we are with the crop insurance, because we have also looked at that

issue. I think we have made some progress there, and we will be ready to give

that in a statement very shortly. We are just about ready to make a final

decision on what we are going to do, if we are going to look at a pilot project

of some type in that area in particular with the moose situation. Our wildlife

people are looking at it and they are going to give us a final recommendation

shortly. Go ahead, Mr. Howlett.

MR. HOWLETT: What we have put together as a

pilot project on the moose situation is a result of our discussions in your area

with your producers and some other areas in the West Coast which also have the

problem. We have a problem also now with caribou. When the caribou come, they do

not come in ones and twos, they come in fifties and sixties and hundreds. This

will be tied to the crop insurance program because, as of now, as the Minister

said, we are trying to attack this on two basis. One is nationally. They are

looking at trying to get a program for wildlife damage. They are calling it

wildlife and waterfowl across the country, and that has been headed up by the

Canadian Federation of Agriculture. Our federation has had input, farmers and so

forth. We are working on that aspect. That is going a hell of a lot slower than

I anticipated it would, and I guess slower a lot of people figured.

What we have done in this Province is this. In our

crop insurance program, the way the program works is that for the first 60 per

cent of risk the premiums are shared on a 50-50 basis between the federal

government and the Province. You can then buy up from the 60 per cent up to 80

per cent on a shared basis: 30 per cent with the federal government, 20 per cent

with the Province, and 50 per cent with the farmer.

We are going to tie what we call a moose pilot

project to this for a two year period. We are going to finance it out of the

safety nets program which we have. You will have to be tied into the crop

insurance program because that is the only way we have to monitor it, because

our crop insurance people do the tests to get the yields and results. What will

happen here is if you buy up to 70 per cent you basically have 30 per cent

uncovered, so your first 30 per cent loss is out of your pocket. What we are

going to do under the pilot project - or what is proposed to be done, I should

say - is we will cover 70 per cent of that 20 per cent or 30 per cent, the up

front, which if you have 70 per cent coverage it is 30 per cent now, and if you

have 80 there is 20.

We will cover 70 per cent of that, which would give

you, say, another 14 per cent on 20 per cent, or 21 per cent on 30 per cent, for

a two year period as a pilot project just to get some results, to get some

figures, to see how accurately sound it could be. Then hopefully some time in

that two years there will be a national program coming along.

That is the program that we have gone out and had

some discussions with some farmers and so forth about. That is the best we can

do at this juncture, because the crop insurance program is a federal-provincial

program. It has taken me several discussions to get the national people on side

to say: We will try it as a pilot. Some other provinces have done the same thing

for waterfowl, so that is what we are going to advance forward.

We will take the case of a guy who goes up to 80

per cent and he has 20 per cent not covered. Seven times two is fourteen, so he

is about 94 per cent, roughly now. It probably might be a bit different, it

might be 92 per cent or 93 per cent, but that is roughly where it will be. What

we have done, we have taken some of that front risk he was carrying when he got

the loss that was automatically deducted, we are going to take some of that and

put it into this pilot project. That is what we are going to do.

MR. K. AYLWARD: (Inaudible) have a

recommendation shortly on the pilot project, on the moose side, to deal with

that. We had the suggestion of the program they did about ten years ago where

they had a separate pilot project. Our officials have been looking at it and I

have just been waiting for a final recommendation. I should have it any day. We

will be coming shortly with an answer for you on that.

MR. FITZGERALD: Minister, I do not know if I

understand Mr. Howlett correctly or not. Surely we are not talking about tying

the moose problem, which is in our hands and we are capable of controlling, into

a national problem with crop insurance are we?

MR. HOWLETT: That can be covered (inaudible),

that is what we are going to do. That can be covered under crop insurance as an

add-on peril.

MR. FITZGERALD: Why would you do that? Why

would we expect farmers to pay a premium for damage caused by moose, a predator

that we protect, when it is totally within our hands to change a policy to solve

the problem? This is not what the farmers that I have been talking to are asking

for. I think we are trying to make it more difficult than it is now. Why can't

we implement a program that was put forward seven or eight years ago? The only

reason that program failed, in my understanding, was the fact that if people

applied for the early hunt, and if they were not successful, they were not

allowed to continue in the regular hunt.

Why can't we build that in and have the early hunt

again, have the people who are unsuccessful to continue with the regular hunt,

and have it controlled by the wildlife officers and the farmers in the area, as

was done before? The farmers agree that that should solve the problem.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Just in case it does not solve

the problem, we have a crop insurance plan. We have been looking at as many

options as we can to offer because the farmers themselves have that crop

insurance. They have the insurance plan. A lot of them have it, and some of them

do not have it. They will have some options to look at in dealing with the

problem. Even if we make a decision to go with a pilot on dealing with the moose

in particular, it still may not resolve the problem for some farmers.

We are looking at whether or not we can do one or

two things or do two things to see if we can help deal with it. We own the

moose, I suppose, but at the end of the day we are trying to find a way to get

as inventive as we can to deal with the situation and to give them some

protection, one way or the other.

MR. STANLEY: Just one point I guess on that.

The hunter solution is one we will be looking at in terms of a pilot, but the

hunter is a very difficult solution with caribou. If you get the kind of caribou

going onto a field that you have over in Cormack of 100 animals or whatever it

is, shooting 100 animals is not a solution. There has to be other ways

identified to try and address this, and one of them - I guess this is what Marty

is saying - is that there can be some financial protection for the farmer in the

event that everything else fails.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, I totally agree, but where

we have a moose problem can't we implement something to deal with moose? In the

Lethbridge area we do not have 100 moose. We are talking about probably two and

three. Moose do not herd like caribou. I think it falls within your department.

The ability to solve the problem falls directly with your department rather than

having to look any further.

MR. K. AYLWARD: We are looking at the broad

range of options because we also have problems in other parts of the Province

with different wildlife. Marty, do you want to go ahead?

MR. HOWLETT: What I tried to do here from the

agriculture side of it is this. We have a program there that is now in being. We

have the safety nets program, which I think we had in another couple of

provinces across the country that did comparable programs or pilots in their own

provinces. I looked at it as an opportunity to try and keep some of those

dollars in the farmers' pockets. I know the moose is a concern, but when a moose

eats 30 per cent of his income out of his pocket, that is his greater concern.

On the wildlife side, they are looking at the

pilot, the hunt and the extra and so forth. I guess I tried to move this forward

from the meetings we had to try and have something for this year rather than

say: What do we do with the moose, the early hunt and so forth? This was doable.

I know it is a good deal for producers who take out crop insurance, because they

could come down to having a very small percentage of their income if the moose

hit them, eating out of their pockets. If we leave it the way it is, they will

have 20 per cent or 30 per cent to absorb and that is what is killing them.

Because even with the early hunt, more hunts -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HOWLETT: Even when we had it, it worked

yes, but some farmers still had a fair loss. What I tried to do was put

something together that would keep money in their pockets. They may put together

a program eventually that would keep some of the moose out of the fields, but I

felt it was kind of urgent. With discussions we had with your and some other

people we advanced this one forward, and the federal crop insurance people are

on side with it. I do not think we should, at this juncture, probably be having

second thoughts. It is only for two years, at least to pilot it, and then we

will have some actual facts to base other decisions on.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. It is certainly urgent,

and you understand the urgency of it. Hopefully something will be implemented

that will help the farmers this year.

Mr. Minister, I understand the fire patrol

personnel in Clarenville and on the Burin Peninsula are being called back,

probably as we speak, today or tomorrow. The station in Bonavista South, in

Southern Bay, the people there are not being called back for some time yet. Can

you tell me the reason why?

MR. K. AYLWARD: I will ask Dr. Nazir to give

you an update on that. Our people are being called back as per normal but we are

getting ready and geared up for the season.

DR. NAZIR: We have always a fixed amount of

money, and the fire season sometimes starts early, sometimes late, sometimes it

extends late into the fall. What we are doing this year, which has been our

practice for the last number of years, is that when the fire hazard is not high

in the spring we recall some of the people to begin with so that they can start

getting the depots ready.

In fact, there was one year when we called only a

couple of stations and they could respond to any sporadic fire here and there,

because we do not get large fires at this time of the year. We get small fires,

ten feet by ten feet, by 100 feet, 500 feet, that type of fires. When we get

towards mid-May you are likely to get larger fires. By that time, then, we are

pretty well fully geared up. What we are doing is this. It has been our past

practice, depending on the history of fires in certain areas, we decide to

recall some of the people early. Within the next week or so all will be manned

fully.

MR. FITZGERALD: In heading 2.2.02, Fire

Suppression and Communications, Salaries are being decreased by $139,800. Can

you tell me how many positions are being done away with and where that is going

to occur?

MR. K. AYLWARD: I think last year it was

budgeted at $1,082,100 and then we went to $1,152,400. We budgeted again $1

million this year, but we pretty well expect that we will have the same staff as

we had last year. Even though it shows that there we expect - as we made

adjustments last year within our budget overall - that we will have pretty well

the same staff. It shows a little difference, but we will end up with pretty

well the same staff numbers.

MR. FITZGERALD: You are saying that part of the

budget is not really accurate.

MR. K. AYLWARD: When they did the budget last

year with $1,082,100 it ended up about $75,000 to $80,000 more, at $1,152,400 in

revised. We are at $1,012,600. Depending on the season, what is budgeted there

we may have to find a bit extra if we deem it appropriate, but we have planned

for the same staff complement for the summer.

DR. NAZIR: For example, last year our budget

for salaries was $1,082,100, and we ended up spending $1,152,400. If there is a

large fire then we go back to Treasury Board and obtain additional funding. So

this is (inaudible), whatever the budget is, just to man our depots in case of

any large fires. If we end up hiring additional people, then we go back for

special warrant, or if there are savings somewhere else then we would go to

Treasury Board to get permission to transfer that.

MR. FITZGERALD: Heading 3.1.04.01, Wildlife

Ecosystem Management Planning. The budget was for $559,800 last year and it was

revised to $298,600, a reduced expenditure of approximately $261,600. Was that

positions that were done away with or has it been a combination of -

MR. K. AYLWARD: The department was restructured

and a number of positions in this part of the department were moved to another

part of the department. You will see in two or three places a substantial

increase in one

section and a substantial decrease in another

section basically

because they are restructured and moved around. Dr. Nazir, do you want to add to

that?

DR. NAZIR: That is correct. There was a little

bit of reduction on account of Program Review, but most of the direction is

explained by what the minister has said, restructuring. Some of the biologist

positions were moved into field. You will see under the operations, regional

services.

We also have created a new division called the

ecosystem health division. Essentially, that was both forestry and wildlife. In

the past there was a gap. Forestry looked after the product of forest lands,

wildlife looked after the animals, but we were not looking at the overall

ecosystem, so we have created a new division called the ecosystem health

division. Similarly you will see a number of other areas where there is a salary

reduction; for example, in the case of Wildlife Ecosystem Research and

Inventory, the next subhead also, it is the same case. There are a number of

areas where we took those positions and put them into the new areas.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Minister, information

technology. If you look through the budget there must be millions of dollars

spent on information technology. Is that the purchase of computers or the

purchase of software? What is costing all the money?

MR. K. AYLWARD: There is one area there, 3.1.01

in particular, which has the largest amount for information technology. A new

system was developed, I think, a one-time development cost. You will see there

under .12 it was budgeted for $125,200 and it went up to $433,600. That is a new

financial information system that was developed one time, I think under the NISL

agreement. I think NISL probably did that. Other than that, most of the IT

budgets are for those divisions and they - go ahead.

MR. STANLEY: If I could just add something.

Most of the work we are involved in has a high use of information technology.

Our forestry inventory system is all computerized, it all goes out into our

district offices through computers; the wildlife inventory system that Dr. Nazir

just talked about; our system for tracking moose licenses, trends, how many

hunters were successful. We have a high component of computer use in information

technology, and those dollars would be for equipment and people to implement

that. Sometimes we hire consultants, other times we do it internally. By the

very nature of what we are doing is we have a significant proportion of

information technology built into it.

MR. FITZGERALD: Is most of that money is being

spent with Newfoundland Computer Services or does it go out on contract?

MR. STANLEY: Some of it is spent through

government's contract with NewTel Information. In other cases, where it is very

specialized work, we have had to do it through other contractors, but most of it

would be through NISL.

MR. FITZGERALD: Last year, especially in my

district - I am more familiar with it than anywhere else - there was a program

or there was a policy by the Department of Forest Resources and Agrifoods where

it allowed loggers to take extra timber in order to clean up blow-downs and

diseased timber and what not. Is that policy in effect again this year or has it

been eliminated?

DR. NAZIR: That policy is under review. That

policy essentially was in the Bonavista-Clarenville area, where there was a lot

of backlog of some of the areas which were previously high-graded and needed to

be brought back under production.

There were two components of that program. Most

likely we will continue with one form but overall there are a number of

practices there which are under review. We are going to make a presentation to

the minister and he is aware of some of the options there. No final decision has

been made, but in the next few weeks we will be consulting the local MHAs before

we make a final decision on it.

MR. FITZGERALD: One final question. I

understand, Minister, that your department is putting together a new policy for

a unit two. I ask you when you are doing that not to forget the domestic

woodcutter. Even though I know that your interests and, I suppose, the reason

why we exist is for the commercial cutter, but the domestic cut is certainly

very important. A lot of people on the Bonavista Peninsula depend on firewood to

heat their house and to cook. A lot of people do not only use it for the three

or four cold months in the wintertime but use it for the twelve months of the

year still. Many of them live in older houses. I don't know how they would

support their families and continue to provide if they were not allowed to cut

firewood in order to fulfil that need. So no, they should not be in cutting logs

and prime timber, but yes, I think they should still be allowed to go and get

the firewood to continue that practice. I think they should be allowed to do

that in the certain areas you people have laid out.

Thank you very much for your answers.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Fitzgerald. We

will be briefing you shortly on the unit two also because we will be talking to

you about the unit two plan.

MR. FITZGERALD: Maybe you should involve the

stakeholders too, Minister. Because I remember making a phone call in

Clarenville one day to a former employee of the forestry department - I do not

think he is there anymore - and I asked him what he was doing. He said: I have

myself locked in a room putting together a policy for the Bonavista Peninsula.

That told me volumes. My comments to him were: Boy, you should not lock yourself

in a room. You should go out and talk to the people out there. I think that is

what should be done, and that's the reason why we get ourselves into trouble

sometimes, when we go and implement things that we only see ourselves and we do

not include the stakeholders.

MR. STANLEY: Just a brief comment. We have now

adopted the most extensive consultation process, I would say, of any department

in government, in moving forward with our planning.

We have a stakeholder committee in Bonavista, unit

two, that has between thirty and forty people on it. They represent every part

of your riding and every interest in the riding: commercial, domestic, the

environmentalist, they are all there. That is the process we are following in

developing management plans. It is very time consuming, and as you will

appreciate, trying to get consensus out of thirty-odd people on anything is

never easy, especially when your interests are as diverse as it is for that

area.

One-third of the harvest on the Bonavista Peninsula

is for domestic purposes, so it is not a small issue. It is a lot of wood. You

know the sawmillers who are looking for wood down there. It is an issue we have

to try and balance, but certainly our policy which has been followed for the

last four or five years is very extensive involvement by local people as we

develop these five year management plans for the area. I think when you get the

presentation that the minister referred to on what is happening now and what

will be happening on the Bonavista Peninsula you will see that that is the case.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you.

MR. K. AYLWARD: (Inaudible) when you hear some

people say: We are managing the forest in a way that there is little or no heed

paid to other views, well, that is not the case. These days we have to submit

plans to the Department of Environment and Lands for harvesting, and it is a

very much changed style of management. It is one that, even though it takes a

lot of extra time, the people welcome it. Once you go forward, at least you go

forward with a plan that is much more acceptable. We have had a number of

examples where we went into an area and companies were going in and they were

potentially going to harvest an area. There was concern about how close to a

river they were going to come and this kind of thing. With good consultation,

being able to work out the proper arrangements, it has saved a lot of

aggravation, instead of having a situation occur and then have to go fix it

after. It is working well, and we will take your views into account, sir, when

we go forward.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Now I invite

Anna Thistle to ask closing questions. Before I do, I just wanted to say how

pleased I am to have Ms Thistle and the minister here. It is not often you get a

chance to participate in something very progressive, as they have done this

year, in terms of those who are disabled to achieve big game license. I just

want to take a moment to commend both of them on behalf of the Committee,

because I think it is a very progressive social change you are enacting.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: All that is progressive is not

necessarily Conservative.

MR. FITZGERALD: All that is Conservative is not

necessarily progressive.

MS THISTLE: Minister, I was just noticing how

broad-ranging your portfolio is. Almost every activity within your department

takes place in the great district of Grand Falls-Buchans.

I think this is the first time I have seen all your

officials congregated in the one spot. I would like to take this opportunity to

thank you and your officials for all the work that you put forward into making

that significant historical day, April 7, happen, when disabled people in this

Province would have the right to apply for an individual big game hunting

license just like everyone else, and also for the work that is going to be

entailed and actually implementing that amendment that was brought forward that

day. I sincerely thank you, and since I have been out in my district and all

around the Province it has been entirely positive. It is a piece of history that

we all here in this House were part of, and I thank you very much on behalf of

the people of this Province.

I was thinking also, when my colleague the Member

for Bonavista South mentioned how one of his constituent's family were featured

in this book on the economy, how lucky you are. Because I know how forestry is

so important, and it is such a significant contributor to the economy of this

Province. Fishing and mining and forestry. I would ask that probably next year

you may try to find a photograph suitable to capture the importance of forestry,

particularly as it pertains to the heartland of forestry in the Province, which

is the District of Grand Falls-Buchans.

MR. K. AYLWARD: The great District of Grand

Falls-Buchans.

MS THISTLE: The great District of Grand

Falls-Buchans.

MR. K. AYLWARD: The historic District of Grand

Falls-Buchans.

MS THISTLE: Absolutely.

MR. K. AYLWARD: The history of pulp and paper

in the Province that comes from that district is something we are all proud of.

MS THISTLE: Also, we were designated as the

forestry capital of Canada in 1988.

MR. K. AYLWARD: That is right, and your pulp

and paper mill now is doing extremely well and it is a very modern mill. It is

an older mill but it has been modernized and its efficiency is very good, and

your people there are working very hard to keep it there. I know you are going

to invite us all this summer over to see the ERMA project on the Exploits River

where you have the salmon enhancement project. If anybody has not seen it - I

know you are going to invite them -, they should go see it. It is one of the

best projects in North America when it comes to salmon enhancement. It is right

across from the pulp and paper mill. You can throw a rock at the pulp and paper

mill from over on the other side.

We have thousands of salmon now going through that

river. We also have kids around. You can see them, they are loving it. There are

thousands of kids a year going through that. It is a secret, but it is becoming

well known. I just want to say to your people there that they have done a great

job. The pulp and paper mill was involved a bit there in helping out. It is an

example of the good things that are going on, the cleaning up of things that we

did not do years ago. That is an excellent project where you can see the salmon

existing and the pulp and paper company existing. There has been about $45

million spent on environmental matters in the last three or four years, where

they have cleaned up their outflow into the river, and that has made the river

much more healthier. It is a great example of sustainable development and

commitment by everybody involved. Your people deserve a lot of credit.

MS THISTLE: I would have to say that that is a

good example where industry and a natural resource can work hand in hand. This

year with our sewerage treatment facility in operation the Exploits River will

be returned back to one of the best salmon fishing rivers in North America. Yes,

I invite everybody to come out and see our project, it is well worth seeing. In

fact, we have been modelled after. Many parts of the world have sought our

expertise in what we have been able to do, and it has all been made possible

through various government levels of funding, and local people who have

volunteered.

The twenty year forest plan is a concern that has

been looming lately. I would like to ask the minister what the plans are for

silviculture in Central Newfoundland, and how much funding has been designated

for that purpose, and where will it be taking place?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you for the question. We

will be announcing the details of that program in the next couple of weeks.

There is a commitment of I think we are upwards of about $12 million to $15

million this year again, which is similar to last year's program. We had

projects in eighty different communities. In Central, where the agreement we

have with the companies is that they will do so much and we will doing so much,

they are giving their list to us today - or yesterday - as to the silviculture

work they will be doing. What we will be doing is providing that to you, where

they are going to be doing their work and our department will be doing its work.

We will be letting you know that very shortly. We will be doing pretty extensive

work in Central Newfoundland, as we have in the past few years. We should have

the details soon as they are just about finalized, and we will be letting the

members know very shortly.

MS THISTLE: Thank you. There is only one other

question I would like to ask you, and that too concerns our moose population. I

have been receiving a few telephone calls regarding the extension to the moose

hunting season. Proposed, I should say, proposed, that is the key word. I know

that will work out quite well in northern and remote areas because of the

inability to get to those places prior to Christmas and so on. However, are you

going to be looking for Province-wide response on that proposal, Mr. Minister?

MR. K. AYLWARD: We have had a couple of our

biologists doing some responses to inquires. We have had a few inquiries on it,

mostly from two or three areas. Probably two areas.

In Baie Verte and east of Gander we went to January

9 from January 3. Six days, I think it was. There was a February hunt on the

Northern Peninsula in two areas and we moved that back into January, so we

reduced that down. On the West Coast we extended to January 9 so we would have,

Province-wide, the same hunting season. That was part of what we did. The

hunting season on the West Coast was to December 13. It was about a two and a

half week extension.

We have had some concerns from a few people. We

have asked our biologists to respond and talk to the individuals, and even go

see them, and explain the rationale. The recommendation for this year was to try

to go with a little longer season, one of the reasons being that a lot of the

animals were being taken within a kilometre of roadways. Back further they are

not being taken. That was one of the rationales. There is a number of others,

but that was one of the main ones.

We are taking responses to that, and like I say, we

are sending officials to different places where we get substantial inquires

about it. The Northern Peninsula has been responding, especially, in the

northern part of that peninsula, very well to it. It is a six day extension for

the East Coast and Baie Verte, and probably two and a half weeks on the West

Coast. It is the one season now across the Province.

Again, like I said, I'm talking to a variety of

people, and our officials are as well. I have asked them to take their views

over the next few weeks to see what kind of views we are getting. We are looking

at trying this for a year and then reassessing again. We appreciate the concerns

you are expressing on that, and if you have any further concerns from your

people, let us know.

MS THISTLE: The main area of concern is Sandy

Badger, where you do get a lot of people travelling in that area, particularly

families and so on during Christmas. I would be pleased to meet with your

officials to see if we can look at probably a meeting, particularly about that

area.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Sure.

MS THISTLE: That is it. Thank you very much.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Osborne.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you.

Section 3.1.02,

Conservation Services, Revenue-Provincial, $25,000. Can you explain what that

revenue will be used for?

MR. K. AYLWARD: We are looking at selling some

advertising in the hunting guide that we put out annually. Right now we just

publish that at cost to the government. We are looking at offering the

opportunity to have some advertisement in the hunting guide. That would be some

revenue to help defray the cost of publishing the hunting guide. The hunting

guide is a publication for all the hunters of the Province. Some advertisers

have expressed an interest in asking about advertising in it. We are considering

doing that, so we expect to get some revenue for that.

MR. T. OSBORNE:

Section 3.1.07, Salmonid

Enhancement, under Revenue-Federal, there was a decrease there of over $100,000

last year from what the budget expected and the revised amount, and this year

there is nothing. I am just wondering if you can explain that.

MR. K. AYLWARD: I will ask the Assistant Deputy

Minister for inland fisheries to give some thoughts on that. We had a

federal-provincial agreement and it has run out.

DR. NAZIR: We had a federal-provincial

cost-shared agreement called CASEC which expired a couple of years ago, and last

year there was some funding left from that. This was the belated revenue. Since

the agreement expired and there is no cost-shared agreement this year, we are

working on proposing one. As the minister mentioned earlier, we will be meeting

with the federal minister soon. In reality, at this time, we do not have a

cost-shared agreement. For budgeting purposes we could not budget any

cost-shared funds until we have a new agreement. That is why that amount was

taken out.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Under Production and Marketing,

4.2.02, Production Subsidies, last year there was $2,025,000 budgeted and the

revised amount was $773,700. Again, this year there is nothing under .10, Grants

and Subsidies. I was just wondering why the drastic reduction in the budgeted

amount and what was actually given in grants. Could you give maybe a brief

explanation of where those grants were given?

MR. K. AYLWARD: That is the divestiture of

Newfoundland Farm Products, so the sale of Farm Products to the farming group,

the chicken producers. That subsidy is now not being shown because we have

basically, as part of the deal, provided them with some assistance to start off.

They are now, as you are aware, out constructing their facility and are now a

private company to stay in the marketplace and to hopefully be successful. We

hope they will be.

MR. T. OSBORNE: This here is for chicken

producers. I noticed later -

MR. STANLEY: I can explain. The money that went

to the chicken industry was in two parts. There was one amount of money that

went to run Newfoundland Farm Products, which is the building down in

Pleasantville and the processing facility. The second amount was a production

subsidy or assistance that went directly to the farmers.

The group that got together to buy Newfoundland

Farm Products was essentially the chicken farmers. When we negotiated with them,

the deal that we had involved the end of both the subsidy at Newfoundland Farm

Products down here and the subsidy that went directly to the farmers. In

exchange for both of those amounts of money there was an agreement negotiated

with the company. They were given a certain amount of grant and a certain amount

of loan, and that made it possible for them to take it all over. As a result,

there will be no broiler producers in the Province receiving a production

subsidy from the Province.

MR. T. OSBORNE: (Inaudible) the competitiveness

of the chicken producers here with the chicken producers, say, in other Atlantic

Provinces?

MR. STANLEY: I guess the judgement that was

made by the chicken producers when we negotiated this agreement was that the

assistance that the government provided them up front to get into this business

- through the assistance, both capital and loan guarantee funding -, with that

they felt they could operate competitively in the marketplace. They are

confident of that. They invested their own money towards that end, and we are

confident they are going to succeed. We are confident they can be competitive

based on a deal that we negotiated with them.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I notice later on in the budget

document for this department there was an amount budgeted this year of $500,000

for Newfoundland Farm Products. What was that amount for?

MR. STANLEY: I can explain that too. It is in

two amounts. Essentially there is $300,000 in there to clue up the old Farm

Products business. As you will appreciate, there were a lot of outstanding bills

to be paid, accounts to be received, etc., as a result of the old Farm Products

which government owned. This was an amount of money to clue that up. In addition

to that, of course the facility at Corner Brook is still owned by Farm Products.

It did not go to the new company. That money is there for maintenance of that

facility in Corner Brook, and hopefully to assist in promotional efforts, etc.,

to try to identify an alternate use for the facility. That is what the $500,000

is there for.

MR. T. OSBORNE: I guess that facility will be

maintained by the Department of Government Services.

MR. STANLEY: At the moment the Corporation, the

Newfoundland Farm Products Corporation, which still exists and still has a

board, is involved with maintaining the facility in Corner Brook.

CHAIR: Mr. Barrett.

MR. BARRETT: Chairperson, I just have fifteen

or twenty questions. I should be brief. Sitting next to Harvey here I become

inspired.

I noticed under 4.2.02, Production Subsidies, that

last year it was budgeted for $2,025,000 and you spent $773,700. This year there

is nothing budgeted. Is that because of the good policy of this government in

the fact that you have disposed of Newfoundland Farm Products, and that you are

building this great big place just on the outskirts of St. John's, the chicken

producing out by Corcoran Pond? Does that mean that in the future there will be

no subsidies to chicken producers?

MR. K. AYLWARD: 4.2.02 and 4.4.01 are both

references for that and yes, basically there is no more subsidy. They are going

forward on their own with what has been advanced to them. They are now a private

sector company.

MR. BARRETT: I noticed 4.4.01, Operations,

under Newfoundland Farm Products. Last year the $11 million I guess was part of

that total agreement. Normally there was a $2,046,400 subsidy. Why would we have

$500,000 for Newfoundland Farm Products this year? Is that to phase out the

crowd that is out there or what?

MR. STANLEY: I just explained briefly. The

$500,000 is in two amounts. Essentially there is $300,000 -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. BARRETT: I must have missed a question from

somebody else, did I?

MR. STANLEY: I can do it for you quickly if you

want, no problem.

MR. BARRETT: Give me a quick overview.

MR. STANLEY: Essentially the $500,000 has

$300,000 to clue up Farm Products in terms of the outstanding accounts and

issues that remain from the old company. The other $200,000 is related to the

facility in Corner Brook to maintain it, because that still belongs to

government - it was not sold to the new company -, and to assist with some money

to look for alternate uses.

MR. BARRETT: The other is a comment. I want to

compliment the minister on such great work last year in being able to secure

extra funding under the silviculture program and the great projects that were

carried out in my district in terms of the forest enhancement and the

silviculture programs. Not only that, it provided a great service and a great

deal of jobs in that area. Most people say in my district that there is not

enough wood for a woodpecker to get a lunch, but that is not true. There is a

fair amount of forest in the area. It provided worthwhile projects that provided

a lot of employment for a lot of people. We have anticipated that the minister

will use his strong arm in Cabinet again this year. He will probably get some

extra funds that he can put into this worthwhile program again. I am sure that

this great minister will be able to accomplish that.

I also would like to compliment him in terms of

providing some funding to Piper's Hole Salmon Enhancement Project last year, and

the great work that was carried on there, and the great contribution that was

made to the local economy by this department. I would like to compliment the

minister on these couple of programs. That is all I have to offer to the debate

at this time.

MR. K. AYLWARD: (Inaudible) for the district,

the parliamentary assistant to the Premier, a very important role that he plays

in the government, and the future roles he will play in the government. He is a

very hard working member, and these projects would not have been achieved except

for his good work. I am going to send a few copies of this out to his district

when I get it from Hansard, as a matter of fact, after I said that, so we can

help the member. He has done a good job and I appreciate it. The silviculture

work is good work and it is a really good job creation work too.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister. I am sure that the

Member for Bellevue will quickly grab the first copy of Hansard to read the

exemplary comments to the terrific questions from Mr. Osborne earlier, in that

he missed some of the details. I am sure he will want to insure that he is fully

informed.

MR. SHELLEY: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Do you have a question? Go ahead.

MR. SHELLEY: First of all, I remind the Member

for Bellevue there was a fellow by the name of Danny one time who (inaudible)

his toes cut off. We can get on to that later, maybe.

Instead of going on through a bunch of other

questions, I will put it together from the first page, from your fiscal year,

the funding

summary of gross expenditures. If it is satisfactory then we will

not ask the other ones. We will try to make it an early night. I don't have a

lot more.

Minister, it jumps out at you. There is $1 million

more in expenditures for Executive and Support Services from last year, but

there is a decrease in the other three: Forest Management by a small amount, by

about 3 per cent; then Wildlife, and Agrifoods Development. There are decreases

in that area but there is an increase in Executive and Support Services by

almost $1 million. Just overall, instead of going through each heading with each

one, what is the move towards Executive and Support Services, an increase there

while you decrease Forest Management and so on?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. SHELLEY: (Inaudible) approximately. Pretty

close to that.

MR. STANLEY: Probably I could just make a

comment. Most of that money came from the consolidation. We operate the

administration function for three departments: Fisheries and Aquaculture,

ourselves, and Mines and Energy. A lot of the money that is in there, I am

advised, is related to the consolidation of the IT function in those other

departments. It is all in one place. There has been no change in the executive

expenditure in our department as such. It is where there is a consolidation

between the three departments. There used to be three administration sections in

the three departments and now there is one, and it happens to operate in our

department. Those numbers get shown in our budget but the expenditures are also

for the other two departments.

MR. SHELLEY: That is a reasonable answer to the

$1 million increase in that, but there were decreases, some significant, in

Wildlife, and Agrifoods Development. There was only a slight decrease in Forest

Management, 2.5 per cent I think it works out to be. In the other two, Wildlife

and Agrifoods Development, it is 21 per cent and 23 per cent decreases overall.

Like I say, without going through all the headings, there were decreases in both

of those. Where do you see the major part of the decrease coming from?

MR. K. AYLWARD: Agrifoods is Farm Products too,

because the subsidy is gone, so that is a big chunk.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, okay, (inaudible) -

MR. K. AYLWARD: That is almost all of it,

actually. Wildlife, we are still doing -

DR. NAZIR: Almost $1 million moved to the

operating from forestry because of the conservation officers moving to -

MR. SHELLEY: Say that again.

DR. NAZIR: All the conservation officers,

wildlife officials, who used to be in Wildlife, now they are budgeted under a

combined force under a different subhead, which is in fact on page 125,

Section

2.1.02, Operations and Implementation. You will find there is an increase there.

That is a transfer of wildlife officials from Wildlife into the -

MR. SHELLEY: (Inaudible) you know me to ask a

bunch of questions, but I figured if I can get an overall statement on that it

would suffice. I will end the questioning with that.

CHAIR: (Inaudible) questions? If not I would

ask for a motion to approve headings 1.1.01 through 4.6.01 without amendment.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.6.01, carried.

On motion, Department of Forest Resources and

Agrifoods, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: The next meeting of the Resource

Estimates Committee is on Monday, May 11, at 9:00 a.m., the Department of

Tourism, Culture and Recreation in the Committee room.

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Chairman, (inaudible) thank

you very much for the experience tonight. We have a gift for you before you go.

We have the Agrifoods Development Strategy 1997 documents. If any member would

like to have it, we will give it to you free of charge, as Members of the House

of Assembly.

CHAIR: Minister, thank you for your kindness. I

wish to thank your officials too for spending their evening here. Thank you very

much.

MR. K. AYLWARD: To the staff, thank you.

On motion, the Committee adjourned .