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December 8, 2003

38th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

vol. A

Hansard Transcripts

vol. B

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2003-Dec-08 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Monday 8 December 2003 Lundi 8 décembre 2003

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

RURAL EDUCATION FUNDING

NORTHERN ONTARIO

SCHOOL FACILITIES

TEACHERS

LCBO OUTLET

CARLO PARIBELLO

HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION

HIGHWAY 3 BYPASS

LIBERAL CAMPAIGN PROMISES

QUESTION PERIOD

VISITORS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

PUBLIC SECTOR SALARY DISCLOSURE

AMENDMENT ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LA DIVULGATION

DES TRAITEMENTS

DANS LE SECTEUR PUBLIC

ONTARIO HERITAGE DAY ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 SUR LE JOUR

DU PATRIMOINE DE L'ONTARIO

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

DEMOCRATIC RENEWAL

ONTARIO HYDRO GENERATION

AND HYDRO ONE

DEMOCRATIC RENEWAL

ONTARIO POWER GENERATION

AND HYDRO ONE

DEMOCRATIC RENEWAL

ONTARIO POWER GENERATION

AND HYDRO ONE

DEMOCRATIC RENEWAL

DEFERRED VOTES

APPOINTMENT OF HOUSE OFFICERS

VISITORS

UPTOWN THEATRE

ORAL QUESTIONS

LAND DEVELOPMENT

GASOLINE TAX

COMMITTEE MEMBERSHIP

LONG-TERM CARE

HOSPITALITY INDUSTRY

ONTARIO POWER GENERATION

AND HYDRO ONE

ELECTORAL REPRESENTATION

HYDRO GENERATION

HIGHWAY SAFETY

SEVERANCE PAYMENTS

SMALL BUSINESS

SEVERANCE PAYMENTS

PETITIONS

PROVINCIAL DEFICIT

EDUCATION FUNDING

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

SENIORS' PROPERTY TAX CREDIT

OPTOMETRISTS

PROVINCIAL DEFICIT

SCHOOL CLOSURES

SMALL BUSINESS TAX RELIEF

SCHOOL CLOSURES

ORDERS OF THE DAY

FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 SUR LA GESTION

RESPONSABLE DES FINANCES

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

RURAL EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr Garfield Dunlop (Simcoe North): I rise this afternoon to make a few comments about the Simcoe County District School Board. In particular,

I'd like to congratulate Ms Diane Bell, who was recently elected chairperson of the board. As well, I would like to congratulate Ms Debra Edwards, who was elected vice-chair of the board. Both of

these women are especially committed to the quality of education in the county of Simcoe.

I'd also like to thank them for their commitment to small and rural schools. In the last Parliament, under the Harris-Eves government, 10 rural schools in my

riding of Simcoe North received funding under the portable replacement program.

As the new Liberal government implements the remaining recommendations of the Rozanski report, rural Ontario will watch very closely to see if small and rural

schools are funded fairly and equitably. In the last provincial election, the Liberals campaigned in Simcoe North by completely fearmongering the public, saying that Simcoe county schoolchildren

were underfunded by a minimum of $1,000 per child.

I now ask Minister Kennedy to immediately keep the Liberals' promise to raise funding by $1,000 per child and have the Simcoe County District School Board and

the Simcoe Muskoka school board receive an additional $70 million approximately in the grant allocations in the budget year 2004-05. It is one thing to campaign on promises; it is obviously another

to deliver. Simcoe county parents, teachers and students look forward to one promise the Liberals won't break.

NORTHERN ONTARIO

Mr David Orazietti (Sault Ste Marie): It is my privilege to be here representing the riding of Sault Ste Marie. It is the first time a Liberal

member has had this opportunity from our city since 1937. I'm truly honoured, and also proud, to be part of a new Liberal government that has been on the job since day one. We've already put

forward an aggressive plan for change to address the tremendous mismanagement of this province by the past Conservative government.

I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge your acclamation to the Chair of this House. It is clearly a reflection of the confidence members have in your ability

to be fair and impartial.

I want to tell you that I have tremendous enthusiasm for our government's abilities to meet the needs and challenges we face in this province today. I am saying

that because, without a doubt, the last time in the past 25 years the riding of Sault Ste Marie received significant investment and had economic growth was under the Peterson Liberal government.

During the recent election, our party was the only party that took the needs of northern Ontario seriously and clearly outlined our plans in a document called True North.

Northerners once again have a renewed hope for their economic and social future and that conditions will improve, because our new Premier also takes the needs of

northern Ontario seriously. It is my privilege to be part of a government that truly respects the interests of all Ontarians.

SCHOOL FACILITIES

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): I rise in the House today to draw attention to another Liberal broken promise. During the recent

election campaign, the Liberal education critic, Gerard Kennedy, promised residents of my constituency of Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford that, if elected, his government would get a school built on

Cheltenham Drive in Barrie "right away."

The now Minister of Education made these comments to parents and to the media. He committed to helping the parents of Barrie and we have yet to hear from him

since he has become the minister. It has been almost two months since Minister Kennedy was sworn in as education minister, yet he has failed to live up to the promises he made to my constituents.

Not one phone call, not one letter, not one indication from him that he is working to keep his promise to build a school on Cheltenham Drive "right away."

What we have here is another Liberal who says anything to get elected and then once in office does something completely different or forgets his commitments. I

stand here today to urge the Minister of Education to keep his commitment to the parents and students of Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford. On behalf of my constituents, I am asking the honourable minister to

keep his word. Sit down with parents and myself, Mr Minister, and tell us when we can expect the school on Cheltenham Drive to be built. When can we expect our students to be placed in real

classrooms, rather than being bussed halfway across the city? We look forward to hearing from you.

TEACHERS

Mr Ernie Parsons (Prince Edward-Hastings): I would like to use this occasion to say thank you to the teachers of Ontario. For the last eight

years they have been vilified and attacked. During those eight years, they continued with the highest degree of professionalism. They continued to teach because of their love for teaching.

We have seen extracurricular activities flourish. We have seen teachers undertake tasks without the resources that they should have had available to them. We've

seen special education underfunded for eight years. We've seen the lack of textbooks. Yet the teachers came to do what they love to do, which is to teach, and for any extra load put on them, they

bore that burden.

Now, together, we can move forward, but we would not be in this position had the teachers maintained the quality of education that they have to this point.

Dalton McGuinty, Gerard Kennedy and the Ontario Liberals believe there is no reason that we cannot have the best education system in the world. So to the teachers of Ontario, I say thank you, and I

also pledge that, together, we will move forward to deliver the quality of education for the students. Students are and will continue to be number one to the Ontario Liberals.

LCBO OUTLET

Mr Jim Wilson (Simcoe-Grey): I direct my statement today to the Minister of Consumer and Business Services. I asked the minister on behalf of

the people of the village of Baxter, a small village located in my riding in the township of Essa, to locate an LCBO agency store in that community.

Visitors to rural Ontario -- small town, small village Ontario -- and the people who live there and the businesses that are currently operating in Baxter, for

example, really need this type of presence and this type of service in their community. It prevents people from going outside of the village to do their shopping. In this case, the residents of

Baxter have to go to Angus or Alliston or to Barrie to receive LCBO services. For some people, that's not such a great idea, to be on the road receiving these services and driving long distances.

In fact, we have the support of the local OPP for this request.

During our time in office, we had a program to revitalize rural and small-town Ontario and villages, and we were able to establish in my riding LCBO agency

stores in Minesing, Anten Mills, Singhampton, Feversham, Craigleith and Beeton. Every one of them has been a great success. Liquor store sales have gone up. Therefore, the Treasurer makes more

money, and the convenience is second to none to people in these communities. It helps save and revitalize these small towns and villages. Once again, I ask the minister to consider putting an

agency store in the village of Baxter.

CARLO PARIBELLO

Mrs Linda Jeffrey (Brampton Centre): I rise today to share with the members of this House an extraordinary accomplishment of a constituent of

Brampton Centre. Dr Carlo Paribello has been awarded the Meritorious Service Medal from Canada's Governor General. This award recognizes an activity, performed in a highly professional manner, of a

very high standard, that brings benefit or honour to Canada. Dr Paribello, who runs a practice in my riding, was honoured for his work in creating the Fragile X Research Foundation of Canada, which

he co-founded with his wife, Barbara, in 1997.

Fragile X is the most commonly genetically inherited form of mental impairment and developmental disability. It affects one in 2,000 males and one in 4,000

females. The Fragile X Research Foundation is run entirely by volunteers, professionals and parents of children affected by this disorder. By trying to speed up the progress toward effective

treatments for Fragile X, Dr Paribello and the members of his organization are leading the way toward finding a cure.

I want to recognize and take this opportunity to thank Dr Paribello and his organization for his service, dedication and leadership in our community. He is an

inspiration to the people of my Brampton Centre riding and serves as an example for all Ontarians.

HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION

Mr Tim Hudak (Erie-Lincoln): The media in Niagara were abuzz this weekend with the shocking news that the Dalton McGuinty government is slamming

the brakes on a mid-peninsula corridor. We all know the importance of this highway for trade, tourism and development in southwestern Niagara, in fact in all of the peninsula, and Haldimand county

as well. I'm rather puzzled why the McGuinty government would slam the brakes on what could be the most important project in a generation in the Niagara peninsula.

I know there are some members of the Liberal team -- the member for Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough-Aldershot, their candidate in the Kitchener-Waterloo area, among

many others -- who are questioning the need for a mid-peninsula corridor. We've been there. We've done that. The demonstration is very clear that we needed that highway yesterday, not in an

additional three, four or five years from now, as the Liberal government plans to do.

I have to question too how this plays into their greenbelt strategy. It's a commendable idea to help preserve the tender fruit lands in the Niagara peninsula,

but they should know the mid-peninsula corridor is an environmental solution. It helps with their greenbelt strategy. If you want to take the pressure off the tender fruit lands in Niagara, the

only way to do so is to build that mid-peninsula corridor expeditiously.

I call on my friends and colleagues across the floor to speak to the Minister of Transportation and say, "Let's move to the next step and get that highway

built," to help with economic development and help preserve that green space they claim that they actually care about.

HIGHWAY 3 BYPASS

Mr Bruce Crozier (Essex): On November 25, I asked a question in this House regarding the Highway 3 bypass. It's rather ironic that the

Conservatives saw it as a hardball question. An independent member, on the other hand, saw it as a softball question.

Let me tell you about Highway 3 and the bypass. It's been the site of a number of fatal accidents. Speeding is common, and it's an important border link that our

exporters use to ship goods to the United States.

I rose on a question in the House to nail down the status of expanding that highway. I didn't do it to please the government, the Conservatives or an independent

member. I asked the question because it's important to the people of Essex. I determined the question. The minister, in reply, said, "Yes. We will improve safety on Highway 3, examining safety

concerns that will identify any necessary improvements such as widening Highway 3." The minister went on to say, "I'll work with him" -- meaning me -- "and we'll work with the people in your region

to make sure the improvements to Highway 3 take place."

I think that those are the kinds of questions we should ask and that should be answered. I'm quite satisfied that I'm the one to determine whether the question

was answered appropriately.

LIBERAL CAMPAIGN PROMISES

Mr John R. Baird (Nepean-Carleton): I'm very pleased to stand in my place today and congratulate two promising young Ontario people for their

outstanding initiative and leadership. I want to speak to two young students from Thornhill who spent their own $15 post a new Web site called "premier" unparliamentary word ".com." Apparently,

it's become --

Mr Tim Hudak (Erie-Lincoln): What's the unparliamentary word?

Mr Baird: I can't say the unparliamentary word, but it rhymes with "fire."

Mr Hudak: It rhymes with "fire."

Mr Baird: It's causing quite a sensation at Queen's Park. "Kasra Nejatian, 21, and Kia Nejatian, 15, launched the site a few weeks ago to expose

Premier Dalton McGuinty's flip-flops and broken promises. They got 1,200 hits within their first four days" of their Web site, and they've had offers of financial assistance to keep up the

site.

While one of these students used to be a member of the Conservative Party, they've done this totally independently, on their own, and it's quite interesting.

They have 100 people who have subscribed to "www.premier" unparliamentary word ".com," including --

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): Order. Let me check on the clock. You were so excited that the clock ran out on you. Thank you very much.

Mr Baird: Point of order, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): I'll give you some discretion on the time. Complete it quickly for me.

Mr Baird: We have Premier Dalton McGuinty's own staff subscribing to "premier" unparliamentary word ".com." It does rhyme with "fire," as the

member from Niagara said. The great thing is that they can now look at the Web site, look at the list of broken promises, and decide which promise they want to break next.

Congratulations to these two outstanding students, and for those of you who want to subscribe, it's "www.premier" unparliamentary word which rhymes with "fire"

".com."

QUESTION PERIOD

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): This morning, the NDP member for Niagara Centre raised a red flag, warning about big problems here at

Queen's Park. Dalton McGuinty fears tough questions. He's ducking hardball questions by stacking question period with softballs from his trained seals in the backbenches. Now question period is

duller than Gigli, and just as enlightening.

Why is Dalton McGuinty afraid? Because take away those softballs, and our broken-promise Premier might have to face some uncomfortable questions. Take hydro. He

could be asked: If you think it's time to depoliticize hydro, why are you sizing up the OPG CEO's office for John Manley? Where's your plan for energy conservation and efficiency? Will you waste

more money on the white elephant Pickering? Why is it that after promising public power during the election, your energy minister says you might sell off a nuclear plant?

I say to Dalton McGuinty that playing games with public accountability is bad news for good government. Mr McGuinty, live up to your promise to make government

more effective, responsive and accountable to the people. Stop the softball questions and face the hardball questions Ontarians want answered.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): The members are aware that no props must be displayed in the House, and that was very deliberate. I would not

tolerate that in the future. If I spot it, I will not recognize you the next time.

VISITORS

Hon Michael Bryant (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs, minister responsible for democratic renewal): On a point of

order, Mr Speaker: I want to recognize some distinguished guests in the east gallery. The Ontario regional chief, Charles Fox, is here representing 136 First Nations in this province. He is joined

by a senior policy adviser to the Ontario regional chief, Kimberly Whetung.

It is my pleasure also to acknowledge, in the east gallery, a great democratic renewal pioneer and a former committee clerk of this House, Professor Graham

White.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

PUBLIC SECTOR SALARY DISCLOSURE

AMENDMENT ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LA DIVULGATION

DES TRAITEMENTS

DANS LE SECTEUR PUBLIC

Mr Duncan moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 15,

An Act to amend the Public Sector Salary Disclosure Act, 1996 / Projet de loi 15, Loi modifiant la Loi de 1996 sur la divulgation des traitements

dans le secteur public.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Government House leader?

Hon Dwight Duncan (Minister of Energy, Government House Leader): I'll have a ministerial statement.

ONTARIO HERITAGE DAY ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 SUR LE JOUR

DU PATRIMOINE DE L'ONTARIO

Mr Brownell moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 16,

An Act to proclaim Ontario Heritage Day and to amend other Acts to include Ontario Heritage Day as a holiday / Projet de loi 16, Loi proclamant le

Jour du patrimoine de l'Ontario et modifiant d'autres lois en vue de l'ajouter comme jour férié.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Mr Jim Brownell (Stormont-Dundas-Charlottenburgh): It gives me pleasure to introduce this bill, a time to recognize our province's First Nations

people, a time to recognize the rich heritages of the anglophone and francophone communities and the diverse heritages that have been seen in our province in the last little while with the new

Canadians. I'm really excited about this. I've had a long association with history and heritage in my community, and I look forward to moving this through the House.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

DEMOCRATIC RENEWAL

Hon Michael Bryant (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs, minister responsible for democratic renewal): One century and

more than 30 years ago --

Mr Norman W. Sterling (Lanark-Carleton): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I understand that we're supposed to have copies of ministers'

statements some time before. This government likes to hand them out at the very last moment because they're concerned that we might have some kind of constructive response.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): Order. Are the statements being presented to the --

Mr Sterling: I haven't got it.

The Speaker: It's noted. The critic for the Attorney General states he hasn't got it. Order.

Have you got the statement yet? Minister, have you had the statements delivered to the critic?

Interjection.

The Speaker: I'm trying to obtain a copy for you.

May I ask, is this the only minister's statement we have?

Hon Dwight Duncan (Minister of Energy, Government House Leader): No, we have one other.

The Speaker: Would you mind going to the next minister's statement, then, and we'll take it on the second round.

Hon Mr Duncan: The McGuinty government is continuing to follow --

Hon Mr Bryant: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: The clock is at 17 minutes. Can we reset the clock?

The Speaker: If we had the documents in the critic's hands, we would not have this situation now. Let's proceed.

Hon Mr Bryant: Would it be appropriate to proceed?

The Speaker: You may proceed.

Hon Mr Bryant: All right, here we go.

One century and more than 30 years ago, our nation --

statement.

The Speaker: I'm going to ask that you revert to the second statement.

ONTARIO HYDRO GENERATION

AND HYDRO ONE

Hon Dwight Duncan (Minister of Energy, Government House Leader): The McGuinty government is continuing to follow through on its commitments to

the people of Ontario who have chosen change. We're acting decisively to deliver on our positive change agenda and, in the process, inspiring hope and optimism for the future.

We're doing things differently than our predecessors and taking government in a new direction to improve the way it works for the people of Ontario.

One very important change we are committed to is ensuring that the government of Ontario is responsible, transparent and accountable -- a government that works

for the people of Ontario.

We're committed to improving the value Ontarians get for the dollars they invest in public services. As outlined in the speech from the throne, the McGuinty

government believes transparency and accountability are, indeed, the best safeguards of public service.

Ontarians understand more than ever that the seamless and cost-efficient generation, transmission and distribution of electrical power are integral to our

economy and our standard of living. It is crucial that Ontario's electricity system be run efficiently and that it is managed in the best interests of the public.

Given the critical role OPG and Hydro One play in people's lives, it is important that we ensure that both of these publicly owned companies operate with

transparency and accountability. We believe that Ontarians have the right to access information about the activity of these two crucial public utilities.

To that end, the bill introduced today proposes amendments to the Public Sector Salary Disclosure Act and would make the act applicable to Hydro One and

Ontario Power Generation as well as to each of their subsidiaries. If the bill is passed by the assembly, these corporations would be required to annually disclose the amount of salaries and

benefits paid to their employees who earn $100,000 or more in the previous year, and this would be retroactive. Disclosure for the years 1999 through 2003 would be required by March 31, 2004, if

the bill receives royal assent prior to March 1, 2004; otherwise, disclosure would be required within one month of the bill receiving royal assent.

A regulation has also been made, pursuant to the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act. This regulation would ensure that all the records of

Hydro One and Ontario Power Generation and their respective subsidiaries are subject to the provisions of the act.

This will ensure that the same rules apply to OPG and Hydro One as to other crown agencies and corporations and to publicly funded organizations already

subject to this act.

We're cleaning up the mess left by the former government and working hard to fix what's broken. We believe that improved transparency and accountability at OPG

and Hydro One will lead to better use of public funds. The previous government kept the public in the dark by not allowing them the right to access information from these organizations. Mr Speaker,

we are only now, as we begin our term in government, learning what went wrong at these companies, and you can be sure that we will take every step possible to make things right.

Today's proposed legislation and announced regulatory provision would require Hydro One and Ontario Power Generation to be held accountable to Ontarians for

the salaries paid to senior executives and professional employees. It would also ensure that the people of Ontario will be able to obtain information that is important for them to have in the

interest of gaining a clear understanding of decisions undertaken that affect them.

Ontario Power Generation, for instance, is a publicly owned company that has, for several years, been making decisions without the benefit of public scrutiny.

Is it a surprise, then, that the people are distrustful and angry, considering the massive delays and cost overruns at Pickering A? The people of Ontario need to be able to access information about

important publicly owned companies, so that they may determine for themselves whether decisions are fair, prudent and in the public's best interests. After all, let us not forget that it is the

people of Ontario who pay these companies' bills.

The McGuinty government will ensure that provincially held assets such as Hydro One and OPG are managed in the best interests of the public. By making Hydro

One and Ontario Power Generation subject to the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act and the Public Sector Salary Disclosure Act, this government intends to make sure that these

companies' decision-making and operations will become both transparent and accountable to the citizens of Ontario. We're changing the direction from the previous government. We're going to begin to

clean up their mess.

DEMOCRATIC RENEWAL

Hon Michael Bryant (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs, minister responsible for democratic renewal): One century and

more than 30 years ago, a nation, a confederation, was born. Members of Parliament came together to debate and eventually proclaim the democratic system of responsible government that is now

Canada's and that of all our provinces. The year was 1867.

In many ways, there have been few changes to our old 1867 democratic system. Voting still involves slips of paper and a ballot box. Provincial elections are

called whenever the government decides they will be called. Parliamentary rules of conduct and the electoral system that puts us in these seats still very much resemble those of the 19th-century

British Parliament. So the time has come to bring our 19th-century traditions in line with 21st-century Ontario. It's time to renew our democracy, for a change.

Today marks an important day in Ontario, one on which this democratic institution seeks to better itself so that everyone can better share in their government

to the utmost. To do this, we must ensure that our democracy is more relevant and accessible to people. To do this, we must give people more and better opportunities to participate in government so

that we can have a government that works for Ontarians, for a change. This government will take bold, positive and historic steps to strengthen our democracy so we can improve our government and

the way it serves people.

Two steps:

Step one is to get our own House in order. Already, the Premier has made an unprecedented change in how government works, dramatically expanding the role of

government caucus members in policy-making on the very cabinet committees that determine what proposals come to cabinet for debate and decision. Under a McGuinty government, the job of government

caucus members is not simply to take the message of the government home to the people but to take the message of the people home to the government before they make decisions.

Next, we want MPPs to be free to represent the views of their constituents and not simply parrot the views of their party on every single occasion. It is time

to change the traditional practice of toeing the line on every single debate, on every single vote and on every single bill that enters this Legislature, and we will do that.

The great parliamentary assistant for democratic renewal, the member for Sarnia-Lambton, Caroline Di Cocco, will work with the government House leader and his

counterparts to make any necessary changes to the standing orders that will assist MPPs, permit MPPs and enable MPPs to represent their constituents in this Legislature.

Next, we will introduce a bill that, if passed, would require cabinet ministers to attend at least two thirds of all question periods over a government's term

in office.

Next, we will take steps to ensure that the days of shell games and secrecy when it comes to the government's finances will be gone. The people deserve to know

how their tax dollars are being spent, so that they can have confidence in their democratic system. We will introduce a bill that, if passed, would make government and its spending partners more

accountable financially by expanding the Provincial Auditor's ability to ensure taxpayers' dollars are spent wisely and to improve on transparency in the entire public sector.

Next, the operations of publicly owned Hydro One and Ontario Power Generation will once again be open to public scrutiny through a regulation that will permit

them to be subject to the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act.

Next, a new sunshine bill will be introduced; if passed, it will require public disclosure of the salaries of Hydro One and Ontario Power Generation employees

earning more than $100,000. We're going to open up Hydro One and OPG and let the sunshine in.

Next, we will introduce a bill that, if passed, would end the practice of wasting millions of dollars on partisan advertising. Those days will be over.

That's all step one.

Step two of our plan is to strengthen our democracy to reach out to Ontarians and engage them in what will be the most ambitious renewal process Ontario has

ever seen. We will seek out the best possible innovative tools to update our democracy. We will explore Internet and telephone voting; transparent and effective limits on money in politics; an open

debate on the winner-take-all electoral system; and fixed election dates. Use every possible innovative tool we can to get young people more involved in our democracy.

For our democracy to be strong in the future, young Ontarians, tomorrow's leaders, have got to become engaged in the democratic process today, and they are

not. We know that they are estranged from the democratic process. We know that they find politics and government to be foreign. So we will work with the Minister of Education to ensure that young

people are engaged as fully as possible in our democratic process.

The Democratic Renewal Secretariat, the first of its kind in this province, will be the engine that drives this democratic renewal process, and the fuel will

be public input from Ontarians.

As my friend the member for Niagara Centre, Mr Kormos, often says, I'm almost done. It is the untapped power of the people that inspires us. Ontarians put us

in these seats in this great House, and this government is not willing to say to the people of Ontario that they only need to check into their democracy once every four years, during an election --

no way. These proposals will make it possible for Ontarians to engage in our democracy as never before, so we can improve the way in which government does its job and so that we can improve the way

in which government delivers vital public services to the people. It is time for positive change in government through a democracy changed by the people and for the people. I thank you,

Speaker.

ONTARIO POWER GENERATION

AND HYDRO ONE

Mr Cameron Jackson (Burlington): I'd like to respond to the Minister of Energy's comments. He's been in the media a lot in the last few days,

talking about the situation with Ontario Hydro and its new companies, OPG in particular. I find it interesting that the minister has indicated that he wants these disclosures to be retroactive to

1999. I found that interesting.

I asked myself why 1999 would be the specific year. For example, there's some information that Ontarians would like to know that dates back to 1997, when

Ontario Hydro, through the independent integrated performance assessment, the IIPA, determined that there had been about a 10- or 12-year period of neglect for all of Ontario's nuclear facilities

at a time when both the Liberals and the NDP were running this province. That scathing report, quite frankly, necessitated one of the most difficult decisions any hydro utility has ever had to

make: They shut down 10 out of 20 nuclear plants in this province, the largest shutdown of nuclear facilities in history anywhere in the world. No one's had to face this challenge.

In March 1998, Ron Osborne was brought into this huge challenge. Again, we're not going back to 1998 to determine what we needed to do to fix the nuclear mess

that had been created in this province and necessitated one of the largest overhauls of nuclear plants in global history.

I ask my colleague opposite to what extent his review and exposure is stale-dated to 1999 and doesn't go back. It does, however, capture July 1999, when the

Atomic Energy Control Board, to the surprise of most of this province, determined that there had to be an environmental assessment done on all these sites, which added two years to the completion

date. So we can thank our federal regulatory agency. However, in the interests of public safety, the right decisions were made.

Now we are being told that full disclosure -- it is not a lot of news; persons making over $100,000 is something our government introduced early in its

mandate. The top five executives at OPG and Hydro One are required, under the Ontario Securities Commission, to disclose public salaries. I would hope as well that you're looking at the salaries at

local distribution companies being fully disclosed. As a taxpayer of Burlington, I'd like to know what all the executives are earning in the local distribution company that I allegedly own. Also,

perhaps this desire to be fully open with the public might include how the IMO arrives at the spot price for energy. This is where much of the profiteering will occur, and we'd like you to apply

the same principles to that, sir, and not simply to people's salaries.

Finally, we've noticed that you have replaced the staff with another public servant, Richard Dicerni. In the spirit of Eleanor Clitheroe, we would hope you're

also disclosing the additional pensions that are provided by taxpayers to these individuals who are assuming corporate responsibilities for our public hydro system.

DEMOCRATIC RENEWAL

Mr Norman W. Sterling (Lanark-Carleton): Our caucus looks forward to working constructively to try to come forward with better mechanisms for

this institution. But the record of this government, so far, denies us from coming to the conclusion that they have any real intent to do so.

They've taken over many of the MPPs' offices in this precinct -- 13 -- with ministers' staff, Premier's staff and bureaucrats; in the throne speech they

offered that they are going to gerrymander the boundaries of our electoral districts in the north and in the rest of Ontario; they have done many petty things, including not giving the NDP party

status in spite of their 15% election support; and they have divided the opposition with regard to where they sit in the Legislature.

We only hope this government shows greater generosity with regard to this debate, because it's important that we improve this institution and democracy in

Ontario. But they haven't shown very much so far.

ONTARIO POWER GENERATION

AND HYDRO ONE

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): I ask for unanimous consent to respond on behalf of New Democrats.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): The member for Kenora-Rainy River has requested unanimous consent for a response of five minutes. Do I have

unanimous consent? Agreed.

Mr Hampton: I first want to respond to the Minister of Energy. I want to say to the people of Ontario, what we're seeing here today is

actually an effort by the new Liberal government to rewrite a bit of their own political history. It was not that many years ago, when the Conservatives introduced the electricity competition act,

which they were very clear was going to have the result of selling off Ontario Power Generation and Hydro One, that every single Liberal in this House voted for it. Did you not understand what that

would mean? Did you not understand, if you take Ontario's hydro system and turn it over to the Enrons and the Brascans, that the salaries can go out of sight, that the expense accounts can go on

and on and that the bonuses and the bonus on top of the bonus can all happen? Didn't you Liberals understand what you were voting for then?

When someone named Mike Harris, in December 2001, said very clearly that the government's intention was not only to sell off Ontario Power Generation but also

to sell off the transmission system, Hydro One, who was it who said that very day, outside this Legislature, that the Liberal Party agreed that both Ontario Power Generation and Hydro One, the

transmission system, should be sold? Didn't you understand at the time what that would mean for hydro prices and hydro rates and the salaries and the bonuses and the expense accounts? You voted for

that. You gave speeches supporting it. Dalton McGuinty appeared on radio station after radio station, saying it was a good idea. Now you want to pretend that you had clean hands, that somehow

you're not implicated in this.

What's even more outrageous is that Liberals supported that move to privatize this most essential service at the very time that the Enron scandal was unfolding

in the United States, at the very time that it was becoming clear that private corporations like Enron and some of the other American private electricity giants were ripping off the people of

California for not billions of dollars a year, not $10 billion but by multiples of $10 billion. You voted for it. Now you want to pretend that somehow you have clean hands, that you're virtuous.

Shame on you. Shame on you for trying to fool the people of Ontario. What's happened is just as much your policy, your direction, as it was Conservative policy and Conservative direction.

DEMOCRATIC RENEWAL

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): I want to reserve just a couple of moments for what this government calls "democratic renewal" and

what I'm going to call "fluff," because that's what it is.

The essence of a parliamentary democracy is this: Government, which is the cabinet, makes the decisions --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): Could I ask the members not to present any plaques or books or so in the House.

The member for Kenora-Rainy River.

Mr Hampton: It's a good book, Speaker. I hope more Liberals read it.

The essence of parliamentary democracy is that the government gets to make the decisions, but those decisions have to be tested here in the Legislature, tested

by means of debate and question.

My colleagues and I have been engaged in a battle to ensure that question period actually asks the questions that people want answered. What do we hear over

here from the media? They tell us that question period isn't even interesting any more. Why? Because Liberal backbenchers stand up and ask fluff questions that have been handed to them by a cabinet

minister who already has the prewritten answer. That's what democracy has been reduced to under your democratic reform.

If this government truly wants to see responsible government, accountable government, ensure that New Democrats are able to stand in this House and ask the

tough questions, the tough questions that will hold you accountable, the tough questions that will force you to respond to what the people out there are asking. Put an end to the fluff questions

that are being asked by Liberal backbenchers that avoid the difficult issues when you already have the pre-written answers.

DEFERRED VOTES

APPOINTMENT OF HOUSE OFFICERS

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): We have a deferred vote on the motion by Mr Bradley that Bruce Crozier, member for the electoral district of

Essex, be appointed Deputy Speaker and Chair of the committee of the whole House; that Ted Arnott, member for the electoral district of Waterloo-Wellington, be appointed First Deputy Chair of the

committee of the whole House; and that Joseph Tascona, member for the electoral district of Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford, be appointed Second Deputy Chair of the committee of the whole House.

There will be a five-minute bell. Call in the members.

The division bells rang from 1421 to 1426.

The Speaker: Order. Will members please take their seats.

Mr Bradley has moved that Bruce Crozier, member for the electoral district of Essex, be appointed --

Interjection: Dispense.

Interjection: No.

The Speaker: -- Deputy Speaker and Chair of the committee of the whole House; that Ted Arnott, member for the electoral district of Waterloo

Interjections.

The Speaker: -- I thought the members asked me to read it. I'd like some silence during that time -- that Ted Arnott, member for the electoral

district of Waterloo-Wellington, be appointed First Deputy Chair of the committee of the whole House; and that Joseph Tascona, member for the electoral district of Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford, be

appointed Second Deputy Chair of the committee of the whole House.

All those in favour, please rise one at a time to be recognized by the Clerk as they are counted.

Ayes

Agostino, Dominic

Arnott, Ted

Arthurs, Wayne

Baird, John R.

Bartolucci, Rick

Bentley, Christopher

Berardinetti, Lorenzo

Bountrogianni, Marie

Bradley, James J.

Broten, Laurel C.

Brown, Michael A.

Brownell, Jim

Bryant, Michael

Cansfield, Donna H.

Caplan, David

Chambers, Mary Anne V.

Colle, Mike

Cordiano, Joseph

Craitor, Kim

Crozier, Bruce

Delaney, Bob

Dhillon, Vic

Di Cocco, Caroline

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duguid, Brad

Duncan, Dwight

Dunlop, Garfield

Eves, Ernie

Flaherty, Jim

Flynn, Kevin Daniel

Fonseca, Peter

Gerretsen, John

Gravelle, Michael

Hardeman, Ernie

Hoy, Pat

Hudak, Tim

Jackson, Cameron

Jeffrey, Linda

Kennedy, Gerard

Klees, Frank

Kular, Kuldip

Kwinter, Monte

Lalonde, Jean-Marc

Leal, Jeff

Levac, Dave

Marsales, Judy

Martiniuk, Gerry

Matthews, Deborah

Mauro, Bill

McMeekin, Ted

Meilleur, Madeleine

Miller, Norm

Milloy, John

Mitchell, Carol

Munro, Julia

Murdoch, Bill

Orazietti, David

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Parsons, Ernie

Patten, Richard

Peters, Steve

Peterson, Tim

Phillips, Gerry

Pupatello, Sandra

Qaadri, Shafiq

Racco, Mario G.

Ramsay, David

Rinaldi, Lou

Runciman, Robert W.

Ruprecht, Tony

Sandals, Liz

Sergio, Mario

Smith, Monique

Smitherman, George

Sorbara, Greg

Sterling, Norman W.

Takhar, Harinder S.

Tascona, Joseph N.

Van Bommel, Maria

Watson, Jim

Wilkinson, John

Wilson, Jim

Witmer, Elizabeth

Wong, Tony C.

Wynne, Kathleen O.

Yakabuski, John

Zimmer, David

The Speaker: All those opposed, please rise to be recognized by the Clerk.

Nays

Bisson, Gilles

Churley, Marilyn

Hampton, Howard

Kormos, Peter

Marchese, Rosario

Martel, Shelley

Prue, Michael

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 87; the nays are 7.

The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: You know New Democrats have grave concerns about the legality of this

manner of choosing a Deputy Speaker. We're asking you to arrange for an election of a Deputy Speaker, in compliance with

section 28 of the Legislative Assembly Act, at the earliest opportunity so

as not to have this Legislature operating --

The Speaker: The member is aware that this has just been ruled on and just been passed. That's not a point of order.

VISITORS

Hon Rick Bartolucci (Minister of Northern Development and Mines): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'd like to recognize the Marymount Academy

political science class from Sudbury and their two teachers, Mr Tim Russell and Ms Massimiliano. Welcome to Toronto.

Mr Michael Gravelle (Thunder Bay-Superior North): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I want to introduce some very special guests in the

members' gallery east, representatives of Kruger Inc, new owners of the Longlac Wood Industries facility in my riding of Thunder Bay-Superior North. We have Mr Jean-François Merrette,

vice-president of operations; Mr Jean Majeau, vice-president of corporate affairs; and Mr Michel Lessard, the woodlands manager. We welcome you. Thank you for being here today.

Mr Peter Kormos (Niagara Centre): Point of order.

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): Point of order.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): One minute. I'm not quite sure where the point of order is coming from. So you do have a voice?

Ms Churley: Mr Speaker, you couldn't hear me. He has a louder voice, so he was trying to get your attention for me.

Interjections.

The Speaker: I'd ask those in your area to be a little softer and maybe I could hear.

You have a point of order, member from Toronto-Danforth?

Ms Churley: I do have a point of order, Mr Speaker; yes indeed I do. In the spirit of democratic renewal, as announced by the Attorney General

in the government today, I ask for unanimous consent that our leader, the leader of the New Democratic Party, be able to ask two lead questions today, two real hardball questions.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Unanimous consent seems to be not there. Order.

UPTOWN THEATRE

Hon Christopher Bentley (Minister of Labour): Mr Speaker, I understand I have unanimous consent to make a statement to this House.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): You ask for unanimous consent for --

Hon Mr Bentley: To make a statement on the collapse of the Uptown Theatre.

The Speaker: The collapse --

Hon Mr Bentley: Of the Uptown Theatre, which happened this morning.

The Speaker: The Minister of Labour is asking for unanimous consent for the collapse of the Uptown Theatre. You have a limit to that of five

minutes.

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): If I can help the minister, we'd be prepared to consent to him making a statement and time for

responses from both the Conservatives and New Democrats.

The Speaker: What I'm hearing now is that the minister needs unanimous consent for each party to have a five-minute response. Is that what I'm

hearing?

Interjections.

The Speaker: There is unanimous consent for five minutes. If you want to take two minutes to do that, that's also fine with me.

Hon Mr Bentley: This morning, at approximately 10:30, the rear portion of the Uptown Theatre in downtown Toronto collapsed, causing damage to

neighbouring buildings. One person has died. On behalf of the Premier and all members of this House, I want to offer our most sincere condolences to friends and family.

Preliminary reports indicate that 14 people have been injured and taken to hospital. Emergency workers are continuing efforts to remove one other person from

the scene. Like people throughout the province, we hope and pray for this person's safe return.

Emergency services arrived quickly on the scene this morning. They have been doing an admirable job in difficult circumstances. The Minister of Community

Safety has advised me that an OPP canine unit is assisting in rescue efforts and that the Ontario fire marshal's office has contacted Toronto Fire Services to offer their assistance.

The Ministry of Labour has dispatched construction inspectors and a construction engineer to assist in any way they can. As soon as possible, the ministry will

begin determining the cause of this tragic accident.

Let us continue offering our most fervent support to emergency workers, affected families and those who have been injured. Again, our condolences to the family

and friends of the deceased.

Mrs Elizabeth Witmer (Kitchener-Waterloo): On behalf of our party, we join the Minister of Labour and the government in expressing our sincere

condolences to the family and friends of the deceased. Our prayers and wishes go out to the injured and those who are missing.

As well, we certainly want to express our appreciation to those who are working so hard on the rescue efforts, the emergency workers involved, and we hope and

pray that the tragedy of this event will be minimized.

I would just conclude by again offering our condolences to the family and friends and our wishes that all will be well.

Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): We heard tragically on the news today that one person has died; we have heard that 12 people have been

sent to hospital and that one person was missing. That was the news as of 1:30 this afternoon. Among the 12 who have gone to hospital are three children, ages 8, 10 and 11. One can only imagine the

horror that those children experienced in the minutes as the walls came crashing down.

This morning I just happened to walk by that location not once, but twice, on my way to Bloor and Yonge Streets. All seemed at peace and very quiet at an old

Toronto landmark. We watched later this morning on television. Councillor Kyle Rae was present at the scene and was on a telephone, speaking to the owner of the building, a Mr Muzzo, who did not,

at least through Kyle Rae's lips, appear to be very satisfied with the demolition as it was taking place yesterday and was extremely unhappy, one can imagine, with what happened today. Also on the

scene was the new mayor, David Miller.

We in the New Democratic Party want to say first of all how very proud we were of the firefighters, the police, the ambulance services, all of the emergency

personnel who were on the scene, who helped to recognize the 13 people and who conveyed them safely to the hospital.

We send our condolences to the family of the man who was killed. We in the New Democratic Party also want to give our assurance to this House, to this

Legislature, that all members from all parties need to do whatever is necessary to get to the bottom, to understand what happened today and to make sure such tragedies never happen again.

The Speaker: It's really a sad day.

ORAL QUESTIONS

LAND DEVELOPMENT

Mr Jim Flaherty (Whitby-Ajax): My question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. It is about Liberal promises, and therefore broken

promises. We have this convenient list of 231 promises -- more and more promises broken every day.

These specific promises are in your own party's policy platform, on pages 17 to 19. You might want to have a look at those. You promised, "We will protect the

greenspace that surrounds our cities, forever." You also promised "real protection for the Oak Ridges moraine" and that you will add important new areas, such as the Dufferin-Rouge agricultural

preserve, Bronte Creek Provincial Park and two thirds of provincially owned Seaton lands. Your leader, Premier McGuinty, wrote on September 5 to the Rouge Duffins Greenspace Coalition promising to

protect, and I quote, "all the lands in the Duffins-Rouge agricultural preserve," and more than that, "to place a moratorium on zoning changes from rural to urban on all lands within the potential

greenbelt area."

My question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs: Are you prepared to state today in this House that you will keep each and every one of these commitments

to the people of Ontario without equivocation, without reservation?

Hon John Gerretsen (Minister of Municipal Affairs, minister responsible for seniors): As you know, we have already protected a very

significant amount of the Oak Ridges moraine by, in effect, making sure there are 900 fewer houses built on the moraine than you were prepared to do; by making sure that a park will be developed

there, in which the developers are going to contribute $3.5 million; and by making sure that the corridor for wildlife is going to be a lot larger than certainly you would have done. As you

indicated many times before, we are going to introduce greenbelt legislation that will, in effect, protect over 600,000 acres of land in this area, to make sure that is protected for generations to

come. As well, we are going to make sure that amendments are going to be made to the Planning Act to bring planning decisions back to the local level.

Mr Flaherty: We know that the minister and his government broke a promise with respect to the Oak Ridges moraine. I think they did that within

a week or 10 days of becoming the government. I'm asking now, though, about the preserve, the permanent -- it's called permanent for a reason, I hope -- agricultural preserve in Pickering. You and

your government, seeking the support of voters in Ontario, promised you would protect the Golden Horseshoe greenbelt and specifically 100% of the permanent agricultural preserve in Pickering.

There's reason for concern. I can tell you there's concern in Durham region and there's concern throughout Ontario, because the candidate who was elected, the former mayor of Pickering, now the MPP

for Pickering-Ajax-Uxbridge, took a different position. He took the position that he wanted to renege on the agreement and promoted a growth management study --

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): Question?

Mr Flaherty: -- that the developers paid $625,000 to fund. My question is, will you promise -- well, forget "promise," because it's not of a

great deal of value. Will you commit, guaranteed by your resignation, that you will preserve in its entirety the permanent agricultural reserve in Pickering?

Hon Mr Gerretsen: I can only reiterate once again that the greenbelt legislation we will be introducing will protect, in an environmental

fashion, more acreage in this province than has ever been done before.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Hon Mr Gerretsen: Over 600,000 acres will be protected, so that environmentally crucial areas will be there for generations to come, something

you did not do. You told us in the House one day that the moraine was protected, and at the same time you made a deal with the developers that, in effect, would allow them to build another 6,000

units. We will live up to the commitments we have given.

Mr Flaherty: No commitment there to the people of Pickering or Durham region, or to the people of Ontario.

Here's another promise, number 47 -- there are many here. This is a good one: "We will ensure that all developers play by the rules." There's promise number

47. What's the deal? What deal did you make on the Oak Ridges moraine? What deal did you cut with those developers? Is it like the deal that was made in Pickering: $625,000 worth of mortgages to

these developers in Pickering? What deal did you make? When are you going to tell us what rules you made with these developers? Keep your promise. Make the developers play by the rules. What rules

have you broken with the developers already?

Hon Mr Gerretsen: We know one thing for sure: The deal that we made was a heck of a lot better than the bad deal that you made. Under our

arrangements, more of the corridor is going to be preserved for the generations to come. We're going to see a parkland developed in the Oak Ridges moraine that everyone can be proud of and use. The

developers are going to commit $3.5 million to that. That's what we did, which is a heck of a lot better than you ever did for the environment.

GASOLINE TAX

Mr Tim Hudak (Erie-Lincoln): I have a question to the Minister of Public Infrastructure Renewal with respect to his transit initiative through

the gas tax. Minister, increasingly Ontarians are concerned about your growing string of broken promises and what it's going to mean to their pocketbooks. Specifically, they're very concerned about

an increase that is pending on the Ontario gas tax to pay for your initiatives. Can you guarantee the House today that you're not increasing the Ontario gas tax?

Hon David Caplan (Minister of Public Infrastructure Renewal): That's correct. It will be an allocation of the existing gas tax.

Mr Hudak: Forgive me if I ask more specifically, because I want to make sure that we understand exactly what the minister is saying. Minister,

I want you to guarantee to the House today that you will not be increasing the Ontario gas tax in the upcoming economic statement or any future budget.

Hon Mr Caplan: It's interesting. Unlike the other party, this government is going to dedicate a portion of the existing gas tax. In the last

election, in their election platform, they proposed to raise the gasoline tax. Ontarians rejected that approach. They approved dedication of a portion of the existing gasoline tax to support public

transit. That is what a Dalton McGuinty government is going to do.

Mr Hudak: Frankly, that's not good enough, because you did not answer my question directly. I recall Dalton McGuinty saying very clearly, "I

will not raise your taxes," yet one of the first bills he brought into the Legislature was the biggest tax increase in the history of the province of Ontario.

Dalton McGuinty asked us to read his lips: "No new taxes." I'm asking you very simply: Can you absolutely, clearly guarantee that you will not be increasing

the Ontario gas tax in the upcoming economic statement or any future budgets? Can we expect a big increase in the Ontario gas tax?

Hon Mr Caplan: The answer simply is no. Dalton McGuinty and the Ontario Liberal Party committed to sharing a portion of the existing gasoline

tax with our municipal partners, unlike members of the Progressive Conservative Party, who wanted to raise gasoline taxes. The voters in Ontario rejected that approach in favour of the approach of

the McGuinty government, which was to share a portion of the gasoline tax. I don't understand why the member opposite has any difficulty understanding that very simple concept.

COMMITTEE MEMBERSHIP

Mr Norman W. Sterling (Lanark-Carleton): This is to the minister responsible for democratic renewal. Minister, why is your government

insisting that a government member, a Liberal member, chair the standing committee on government agencies, which reviews all government appointees?

Hon Michael Bryant (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs, minister responsible for democratic renewal): I thank the

member for his question. If the member has some specific concerns that he'd like to raise with us, then we'd be happy to consider them. Otherwise, perhaps what I will do -- I will hear your

concerns. So you can speak it directly, it's probably more appropriate in the supplementary if I direct you to the House leader, but I'm all ears.

Mr Sterling: I think it's self-evident what the concern is. This government appoints the people, and now they want the person who's

responsible for running this particular committee to be from their own backbenches. This is unheard of. They talk about democratic renewal, and yet they're willing to play games with the

appointment process. They want to review their own. They want to slip things by this Legislative Assembly.

Hon Mr Bryant: Nothing could be further from the truth. I'll refer this to the House leader.

Hon Dwight Duncan (Minister of Energy, Government House Leader): We have proposed a number of changes to the standing orders that we think

will benefit the proper functioning of this House. With respect to government appointments, the official opposition have the number of members on the committee that they're entitled to under the

regulations. We believe that it's the proper way to go forward. We believe that the proper scrutiny of those appointments will be considered.

My colleague will be considering changes to what appointments can be looked at and exercised later on. That's the other thing they did agree, in exchange for

two Deputy Speakers, which they've never had before. These things were negotiated among the two parties.

LONG-TERM CARE

Mrs Liz Sandals (Guelph-Wellington): My question is for the Minister of Health. There have been reports in the Toronto Star about the

abhorrent conditions in some long-term-care facilities. For example, Natalie, a mother of 10, died from gangrenous bedsores. This is unacceptable. Our seniors are not getting the care they deserve

and need. Some 65,000 seniors and their families depend on long-term-care services in Ontario. This is catastrophic. People who have worked very hard for this province are now being forgotten and

ignored. We owe our seniors more than this. We owe them dignity.

Minister, why did the previous government rob so many of our seniors of their dignity?

Hon George Smitherman (Minister of Health and Long-Term Care): Earlier today I had the opportunity, in a shared radio broadcast out of

Hamilton, to say thank you to the daughter of Natalie Babineau for allowing the Toronto Star in a very significantly researched exposé to demonstrate some of the underlying conditions in our

long-term-care facilities. I made the commitment yesterday in an interview and again today to that family that the actions of this government will be to enhance the quality and dignity of the lives

of those people, our seniors, who spend their final days in our province's nursing homes. I don't think this is a partisan matter. I think it's one that challenges all of us as MPPs to play a

bigger role as advocates, to take a look inside these facilities that operate in all our ridings across the province. Over the course of the next very short while, we'll be moving forward with an

action plan that will give real hope and improve the quality of the circumstances of our seniors who are living in these facilities.

Mrs Sandals: Minister, you have promised a revolution in long-term care. You have been quoted as saying that you will tackle these problems

with missionary zeal. But clearly, there remains much to be done. What actions will you take to fix our long-term-care system?

Hon Mr Smitherman: It seems that the idea that you can proceed on this matter in a non-partisan way is lost on the member from Burlington, who

decides that the appropriate response is to laugh at the idea. You laughed.

Mr Cameron Jackson (Burlington): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: The member opposite knows full well that that was not any comment related to

what you were saying. I was having a conversation with the member from St Catharines, and St Catharines alone. That was a cheap shot, but apparently not too cheap for you.

Hon Mr Smitherman: We have an opportunity, with respect to our long-term-care facilities, to introduce a new era of accountability, to bring

transparency to the process, to make sure that complaints are addressed in a fashion which is transparent for the families that made them and for the facilities around which the complaints are

made.

I've directed my ministry to provide me with an action plan within 30 days. That's about their priorities. I've also asked my parliamentary assistant, the

member from Nipissing, to engage in a very extensive consultation, not just a stakeholder consultation, but a community consultation that looks for the opportunities we have to re-engage the

community in these institutions. It seems very clear to me that the lives of our seniors will be enhanced dramatically, especially if we're successful at shining a big light on those operations and

re-engaging the community. I ask all members to play a role in helping to make that happen in their ridings.

HOSPITALITY INDUSTRY

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): My question is for the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. Toronto's hotel operators have had a

very difficult year with SARS, hydro and other challenges. These hotel operators are now requesting that you and your government support the tourist industry by allowing them to add a levy on hotel

rooms. Minister, are you considering allowing a new levy on hotel rooms in Toronto?

Hon James J. Bradley (Minister of Tourism and Recreation): I have to ask the former ministers what page the answer is on in the briefing

book.

There is no question that the Toronto hotel association and others in larger communities are contemplating, of their own volition, trying to develop a

volunteer levy which would be used for marketing purposes for tourism. You're quite right. You have identified a major problem that I know my predecessors are aware of, and that problem is that we

want to get people back into Ontario for tourism purposes, and our marketing is far less in terms of the amount that we allocate for it than, for instance, cities like Chicago, Montreal, Quebec

City and others. I am aware that the organizations that represent hotels in Toronto, for instance, are endeavouring to get together to have a volunteer levy, to use the money for that purpose and

to generate even more economic activity for this province, something I think you would want to see happen.

Mr Tascona: Being an experienced minister from the past, I'm looking for a response to that question. Either you are going to allow this levy

as a government, thereby raising taxes, or you're not going to allow it. Which is it?

Minister, can you reassure this Legislature that before you act to increase hotel taxes you will abide by the Taxpayer Protection and Balanced Budget Act,

which your leader signed a pledge to, and hold a referendum? Yes or no?

Hon Mr Bradley: I can tell the member that, in fact, I will be consulting widely -- and wisely -- with the tourism industry. I know my

predecessors did so, and I know they heard from the tourism industry. I think there are three predecessors in the House at the present time -- there might even be more -- but all of them said that

we need the funds to be able to compete, I guess is the best word, with others in getting people coming to the province of Ontario.

I'm all ears in terms of hearing what they have to propose. When they propose that to me and to the government, I'll be happy to share my response with the

member. But I think it would be premature at this time for me to make any comment on that until such time as I have received such a proposal. I know the member would agree with that.

ONTARIO POWER GENERATION

AND HYDRO ONE

Mr Wayne Arthurs (Pickering-Ajax-Uxbridge): My question is for the Minister of Energy. This past Thursday, the committee chaired by Jake Epp

released a report that detailed the failings of the previous government in the energy sector. Among other things, neither the government nor their political appointees at Ontario Power Generation

exercised the necessary oversight over the Pickering A rebuild project. We all know too well that the board approved some 11 cost increases and 13 delays over the course of four years.

Minister, how could the previous government have allowed this to go on?

Hon Dwight Duncan (Minister of Energy, Government House Leader): To my colleague, the situation at OPG had degenerated into what can only be

determined as a horrible mess. Number one, the previous government, beginning in 1999, announced that the cost associated with refurbishing all four units at Pickering A would be $1.1 billion. We

all know the facts now: that in fact to do all four it's going to be between $3 billion and $4 billion, something that was not made known to the public by the previous government; 13 increases in

extensions and time to completion, 11 increases in the costs associated with that, all kept under wraps by the government for four years. We've been left with a mess. We're changing the direction.

The McGuinty government is going to move forward.

Given his representation of the people of Pickering, I say to my colleague, whom I've already had the opportunity to discuss this issue with, that we're going

to move forward, change the direction of the previous government, make sure there's openness, accountability and transparency and that OPG works for the ratepayers and taxpayers of this great

province.

Mr Arthurs: You indicated that the government was elected to change the direction of government. The Epp report showed us that the previous

government had little interest in letting the people of the province know the real state of the rebuild at Pickering A. On top of that, the record of the previous government shows that they didn't

want the people of Ontario to know anything about what happened at OPG and Hydro One. Contracts and salaries weren't disclosed, cost overruns and delays were hidden and the taxpayers of the

province ended up funding yachts and trips to Europe. Can you tell me what the Ministry of Energy is doing to ensure openness and accountability in Ontario Power Generation and Hydro One so

something like this never happens again?

Hon Mr Duncan: Earlier today I introduced a bill that would provide salary disclosure with respect to senior officials at OPG and Hydro One. I

should tell the Conservative members who don't know this and need to do their homework a little bit more before they speak in the House that, in fact, there is no gap. Those things were open until

your government changed them in 1999. We've closed the gap on that.

The same applies with respect to freedom of information and protection of privacy. It's time to shed light on OPG. The previous government stonewalled, refused

to answer questions and hid them from the full scope of public and media review. When they say they commissioned the report, it was four years and $4 billion later, I say with no respect, because

you made a mess of it. There's no explaining it to anyone. It was your appointees who ran it; it was your friends who were in charge. You kept the light turned away from it. We're turning the light

on. We're changing the direction of this province. I say to the members opposite, you mismanaged this in a way that's never been equalled in the history of Ontario.

ELECTORAL REPRESENTATION

Mr Norman W. Sterling (Lanark-Carleton): I have another question for the minister responsible for democratic renewal. Do you believe in the

basic tenet of our democratic institution that members are elected representation by population?

Hon Michael Bryant (Attorney General, minister responsible for native affairs, minister responsible for democratic renewal): This is a very

important part of what we have to look at so that people can have full confidence in our democratic system. We have the same old 1867 system. Some parts of it we want to keep; some parts we want to

look at. We've made a commitment to take this issue to the people. We're not afraid to ask the people about the way in which our electoral system is going to unfold. We're not afraid to talk to the

people about how we ought to renew democracy. It is absolutely critical that we get everybody, young people in particular, who has become estranged from our democracy and our governmental process

back into the centre of politics and government. That is something we're willing to do; that is something we're going to do. Today marks the beginning of that exercise.

Mr Sterling: I'm very happy that there is going to be considerable consultation. As you know, the federal boundaries commission has decided

that the next time through we're going to have 106 ridings in Ontario, as opposed to 103. That means reducing from 11 to 10 ridings in the north. I would have hoped that this government and this

minister, in putting forward this view that we're going to have consultations, would make a decision with regard to the boundaries of future ridings on the basis of those consultations. Are you

willing to now withdraw from your throne speech commitment to allow more representation in the north than in the rest of the province of Ontario?

Hon Mr Bryant: I say to the member that we've made a commitment to consult. We are going to consider all the implications. As the member

knows, there are constitutional implications as well. There are limits as to what a government can do. Our commitments to renew democracy are there to give people more confidence in democracy. I

can say to you that we will be proceeding with these particular reforms, especially the electoral reforms and especially ensuring that we have full and appropriate representation in the north, in a

way in which people can have confidence in their democracy.

When we do that, we will be looking for input from all members of this House and looking for input from across Ontario. Yes, we're going to be looking for

input from northern Ontario too. We want to make sure that we have an electoral and parliamentary system that is not only consistent with the old traditions but deals with the reality that people

have lost, to a large extent, a level of confidence in democracy. We're going to bring it back.

HYDRO GENERATION

Mr Howard Hampton (Kenora-Rainy River): My question is for the Minister of Energy.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): I'm assuming you've asked for unanimous consent.

Mr Hampton: I'm not sure. If you don't want us to ask a question, say so.

The Speaker: The member for Kenora-Rainy River knows the procedure. You have to ask for unanimous consent before, and I am expecting that from

you.

Mr Hampton: Mr Speaker, I ask unanimous consent to ask a question on behalf of New Democrats.

The Speaker: Do I have unanimous consent from the House? Agreed.

The member for Kenora-Rainy River.

Mr Hampton: Speaker, I guess this is what "democratic renewal" means in Ontario.

My question is for the Minister of Energy. You introduced a bill today, and you are trying to pretend to the people that this is somehow going to be

earth-shattering. It's called the Public Sector Salary Disclosure Amendment Act. You say it's going to do unique things with respect to Ontario Power Generation.

My question is this: Notwithstanding this fluffy bill you've introduced today, what is your policy going to be with respect to Pickering? Are you going to put

more money into restoring the Pickering A nuclear generating stations -- estimated cost, $4 billion? Are you going to build new nuclear facilities in the province -- estimated cost again in the

billions of dollars? You owe it to the people of Ontario. If they read your platform document during the election, they'd have no idea what your electricity policy is.

What is your electricity policy for Ontario? What are you going to build? What are you not going to build? Is it going to be public? Is it going to be private?

What's your electricity policy for the hydro consumers of Ontario?

Hon Dwight Duncan (Minister of Energy, Government House Leader): First of all, we think it is important to have disclosure. In fact, you

argued for that before. I don't think it's fluff at all, to respond to that. It's very important in terms of salary, but also in terms of freedom-of-information requests. In order for the people to

participate in a full debate about the future range of electricity options, we think they should have access to that information.

Later this week we'll be announcing some appointments to a blue chip task force that will look at those options. I'm not going to answer today, pending more

study of that particular question, study which I believe is important, and I think you would too. I remember Darlington, for instance, in the early 1990s, with money getting pumped into that by

your government. You continued to allow nuclear in this province in the five years you had.

So, (1) we believe that full disclosure of salaries and information is important from both OPG and Hydro One, and (2) we believe the people of this province

need to be part of a consultation that will determine the electricity future of this province, one that has been left on its knees and is weakened to the point where we're all very concerned about

it.

Mr Hampton: The question was, what is this government's hydroelectricity policy? Are you going to put more money into Pickering? Are you going

to build other nukes? What are you going to do with the coal-fired plants? People in Ontario have no idea what your electricity policy is, other than that you want to blame everything on the

Conservatives. It seems to me that when they were there, they wanted to blame everything on someone too. The question is, what's your policy? And don't tell us that your bill introduced today

somehow adds something.

You can find out what the executives over at OPG are getting paid simply by going to the Web site. For example, in 2002, Ron Osborne was paid almost $2.5

million; Graham Brown, the director and chief operating officer, $1.6 million. Your bill doesn't add anything. So quit trying to pretend that you're creating electricity policy over there by

introducing this fluff legislation.

What is your electricity policy? The people of Ontario need to know before you continue to make the same mistakes the Conservatives made.

Hon Mr Duncan: We have begun to address the mistakes the Conservatives made: (1) we've lifted the cap; (2) we are providing new legislation

and regulatory protection to make sure all Ontarians have access and an opportunity to have information regarding these important decisions. I think it is important.

It's a first step. We acknowledge that. We can't undo the five years of mismanagement your government brought, and the eight years of mismanagement this

government brought, in one day. We've moved quickly.

When one talks about lack of clarity and policy on these things, I was reading this book, Public Power, which I got in the bin at the bookstore the other

day:

"There may be practical reasons to allow some degree of privately owned generation that can contribute to our province's environmental well-being within a

regulated public power system.

"I am not ideologically opposed to private power any more than I am opposed to private restaurants, clothing or car dealerships."

That wasn't Ronald Reagan or Margaret Thatcher; that was Howie Hampton.

HIGHWAY SAFETY

Mr Pat Hoy (Chatham-Kent Essex): My question is for the Minister of Transportation. Your recent announcement regarding a signed agreement

between Ontario and France to recognize drivers' licences as equivalent is indeed good news for Ontario drivers who move to France. However, for years US drivers have been recklessly speeding on

Ontario roads through the community of Chatham-Kent Essex, knowing they are unlikely to face the consequences of their actions. Can you please tell this House what this government is doing to hold

these drivers accountable for threatening the safety on Ontario roads?

Hon Harinder S. Takhar (Minister of Transportation): I want to thank the honourable member for this important question, and I also want to

thank him for improving road safety throughout his region.

I agree that we need to do everything possible to hold drivers accountable for their unsafe driving actions, whether those drivers are from Ontario or from

outside the region. That's why my ministry has entered into conviction exchange agreements with other US states. Currently, agreements are in place with Michigan and New York. These agreements help

make our roads safer and act as a deterrent, because they enable us to record convictions and apply demerit points and licence suspensions.

Our government will do everything we possibly can to protect the motoring public and to improve road safety in Ontario.

Mr Hoy: I'm pleased to hear that holding drivers from other jurisdictions accountable for their actions is indeed a priority for this

government. Fines can also be a strong deterrent for these irresponsible drivers. Many fines, however, go uncollected.

Chatham-Kent took over operation of the provincial offences court in May 2000. There is nearly $600,000 in unpaid traffic fines issued to US residents for

driving infractions while in the municipality. This, of course, is lost revenue for the municipality. Can you tell us how this government will be moving forward to enable Chatham-Kent and all of

Ontario to collect these outstanding fines?

Hon Mr Takhar: As I indicated before, holding accountable drivers whose habits are unsafe is indeed a priority for us. I understand that the

collection of fines from out-of-province drivers requires the mutual consent of both provinces. Despite our best efforts to contact each and every US state and engage them in negotiating such

agreements, to date none have agreed.

I want to point out that last week I had the chance to meet with the director of transportation for Michigan. We have agreed to meet on a regular basis, and I

will raise those issues with him. We will do everything possible to make sure we can collect those fines.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): New question.

Mr Jim Wilson (Simcoe-Grey): My question is to the Minister of Finance. For the past few weeks we've heard a great deal of concern from all

Liberals in the House, and in particular from the Minister of Finance, about the finances of this province, about the bottom line. Because he is so concerned about the bottom line and about the

finances of this province, I'm going to ask him a very simple question: When are you going to repay the $35,000 in severance pay that you took from the public purse in this province?

The Speaker: That question is out of order. If you have another question --

Mr Wilson: I think the honourable member --

The Speaker: One more time: Do you have a question?

Mr Wilson: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I believe this question is in order. He is the finance minister. He's the guardian of the public

purse --

The Speaker: Order. New question.

Interjections.

The Speaker: I warned the member about three times about the direction of his question. He refused to take another direction. Now he wants a

new direction. New question.

Mr Kuldip Kular (Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale): My question is directed to the Honourable Minister of Education. Minister, last week you

Mr Norm Miller (Parry Sound-Muskoka): Mr Speaker, on a point of order: I sat in this House last session when the same question was asked of

the leader --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I've already ruled on that and I don't need to go back to that again.

Mr Jerry J. Ouellette (Oshawa): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: In accordance with standing rule 36(a), I think you will note that questions

are allowed to be directed to a minister. The component of the question -- standing order 36 stated that it had to be referring to the minister's ministry -- was removed from that point in the

standing orders. This is in compliance with standing rule 36(

a) which states that you are allowed to question ministers. I would ask you to rule on that.

The Speaker: I've listened carefully and I did not see any relevance to the minister's ministry. If the member wishes now to redirect the

question in a different way, with something that is relevant to the minister's portfolio, I will allow it.

Mr John R. Baird (Nepean-Carleton): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I will not challenge your ruling at all, or address your ruling, because

it's non-debatable. I would like to ask -- I think we can do anything in this House with unanimous consent, if all members agree. The Minister of Finance has indicated that he would like to take

the question.

The Speaker: I'll take your point of order. I cannot hear over the member from Niagara Centre. If he would be quiet a bit, I'd be able to hear

the point of order.

Mr Baird: The Minister of Finance has certainly indicated that he would like to take the question and I'd like to ask for unanimous consent

for Mr Wilson to put the question to the Minister of Finance.

The Speaker: Did I hear unanimous consent? I heard a no.

Mr Wilson: Mr Speaker, on a point of order --

The Speaker: Is it the same point of order going on again?

Mr Wilson: Going on what you've just advised the House, that perhaps I can ask my question to another minister. Perhaps you could guide me as

to who would be appropriate to ask that question to. It certainly is --

The Speaker: Order. Let me just be very plain and clear here. There is only one Speaker in the House, and that's me. I don't need a lot of

speakers telling me -- I can of course have some help from time to time, but, please, if you have a question you want to put to another minister, but it's not the same question -- it's out -- I'm

prepared to hear it.

Hon Dwight Duncan (Minister of Energy, Government House Leader): I ask for unanimous consent to allow the member to put his question again to

the Minister of Finance, with a supplementary.

The Speaker: I hear a point of order for the member from Simcoe-Grey to put his question to the minister. It's under unanimous consent. Do I

have unanimous consent for this? I heard a no.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Let's take a five-minute recess until we all cool down.

The House recessed from 1520 to 1525.

The Speaker: Member from Simcoe-Grey, I'm going to ask you to ask a different question than you were asking. I'm giving you this

opportunity.

Mr Wilson: I would ask the Minister of Finance if he thinks it's appropriate that people leave this place, receive a pension, come back not

too many years later and do not repay that severance to the people of Ontario. The same question was asked just a few months ago by Mr Smitherman, as a member of the opposition, to our leader at

the time, Premier Ernie Eves.

He did the honourable thing and repaid his severance, and I'm just wondering if, as a matter of policy, the government feels --

The Speaker: Order. The minister is not here.

Mr Baird: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: It was indicated to us in the opposition that the Minister of Finance would be here for question

period today. Perhaps we could adjourn for five minutes and they could find him.

The Speaker: New question.

Mr Kuldip Kular (Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale): My question is directed to the honourable Minister of Education. The other day, you visited

a school in Mississauga --

Interjection.

Hon Greg Sorbara (Minister of Finance): On the same point of order, Mr Speaker: I want to apologize to you and the House for being a little

bit late after the recess. If the member wants to put the question again, with your consent, I would be perfectly happy to answer.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): I'm going to rule this way: The member from Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale has a question.

Mr Kular: My question is to the Minister of Education. The other day you visited a school in Mississauga and announced that you would be

allocating $120 million in new funding for schools.

Mr Jim Wilson (Simcoe-Grey): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Would it be appropriate in your eyes if I ask a similar question to the Chair of

Management Board of Cabinet? Since the finance minister is not responsible for the finances of this province, perhaps the Chair of Management Board is.

The Speaker: I'll allow the member for Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale to ask a question, and then I'll come back to you for a question.

Mr Kular: My question is for the honourable Minister of Education. The other day you visited a school in Mississauga and announced that you

Hon Gerard Kennedy (Minister of Education): There is no question on our part that the effort last week was a necessary one. Yes, it was hard

second language as a challenge, we felt it was urgent enough that we would act in this school year to ensure they had a chance.

When I say "half as well," 23% of those students don't write the literacy and numeracy tests at all. These are students that we recognize were falling behind

unless they received the help that recognized the new Ontario we have. We have these new needs. They were getting lower support after the provincial takeover of education finances than they did

when school boards supported themselves. It's absolutely essential that we have that support available in the classroom so they learn the language of instruction and can overcome that barrier and

be productive, fully contributing members of society here in Ontario today.

Mr Kular: As an immigrant myself, I know from first-hand experience the language and cultural barriers these new Canadians face. Approximately

60% of the new immigrants Canada accepts each year settle in Ontario. Many of them come to my own riding of Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale and the surrounding greater Toronto area. How will this

money benefit the students in my riding of Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale?

Hon Mr Kennedy: There is no question that this riding happens to be one of the fast-growing ones in the province. We are lucky that those

language.

people are there, because that is the new Ontario of people who with just a little bit of assistance are going to overcome that barrier. They're going to be better students, they're going to be

better citizens and they're going to be better employees and employers in this province if they get it.

The previous government, unfortunately, faced with a recommendation by the Rozanski commission, said that zero is what these children could get. That has put

these kids behind. It is simply something to get started on, which, in its absence, would mean these kids would be further behind. We don't accept that. We believe that in

Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale every child has the same access to their future. This will help them do that.

SEVERANCE PAYMENTS

Mr Jim Wilson (Simcoe-Grey): Perhaps I'll ask my question to the acting Premier of the day, and I would remind the Premier of the day that on

May 21, 2002, the now-Minister of Health, Mr Smitherman, asked our leader, then-Premier Eves, if he would repay the severance he received from the taxpayers of Ontario when he left this House and

then came back to be Premier and take his place in this House. I say to the acting Premier today that it was clearly Liberal Party policy in opposition on May 21 last year that it was the right

thing, the honourable thing, the appropriate thing to pay back his severance upon returning to this House. So I ask the acting Premier if the policy has changed. Do you still believe that the

honourable and right thing to do is to have Mr Sorbara pay back the $35,000 he took from the public purse in severance payment?

Hon Dwight Duncan (Minister of Energy, Government House Leader): I'll refer that to the Minister of Finance.

Hon Greg Sorbara (Minister of Finance): I'm glad to hear that my friend from Simcoe-Grey has finally got his question.

Let's first of all deal with policy. There is no policy right now in the Legislative Assembly for the repayment of severance for returning members, but there

is a policy within the OPS, and the time frame within the OPS is two years.

In the circumstances of my friend from Dufferin-Peel-Wellington-Grey, here's what happened: He resigned his seat in mid-term, did Mr Eves. Within 13 months, he

caused two by-elections to be held, at a very high cost to the taxpayers. He returned to Parliament in the same session of Parliament, 13 months later, and he did the right thing by returning his

severance.

In my own circumstances, at the end of the Parliament in 1995, I retired from politics. Six years later, I was re-elected in a by-election. Every year that I

serve in this Legislature, I receive $40,000 less than you and all other members because the entire value of my pension is clawed back.

Mr Wilson: Clearly, the Liberals had a policy a year ago that said that people who took a severance from the public purse and came back to

this House should repay that. They berated our leader, Mr Eves, for some time, until he revealed that the morning he was sworn in as Premier, he paid back the $78,000 in severance. He did the

honourable thing, he did the right the thing and he did the thing that helps deal with the concerns that the finance minister says he has about the finances in this province.

I say to the honourable members over there --

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): Order.

Mr Wilson: Will you do the honourable thing, will you do the right thing and pay back the $35,000 in severance pay? Mr Eves did the right

thing; it's time you did the right thing. After all, you're responsible for the finances in this province.

Hon Mr Sorbara: I say to my friend from Simcoe-Grey that under the legislation they passed, the Balanced Budget Act, it provides that

governments must bring in a balanced budget. If they don't, all the cabinet ministers in that executive council are required to pay back 25% of their salaries. When I see all of those ministers

writing cheques to Her Majesty the Queen, I'll reconsider.

I want to tell my friend from Simcoe-Grey that my friend from Dufferin-Peel-Wellington-Grey received a payout on his previous pension of somewhere around $1

million. In contrast to that, every year that I sit in this Parliament, I receive $40,000 less than him and all of the members because of the clawback of my pension. That is right, and I accept

that without qualification.

SMALL BUSINESS

Mr Peter Fonseca (Mississauga East): My question is for the Minister of Finance. Many of the residents of my riding of Mississauga East are

small business owners. These people work hard each day to provide for themselves and their families and do not have the benefit of income protection. For many of these small business owners,

increased competition from large corporations and major events such as SARS and the blackout have caused financial difficulties.

The current government is facing a $5.6-billion deficit that it has inherited from the previous government. Our Fiscal Responsibility Act will go a long way in

addressing this deficit. Minister, my question to you is, what will this bill mean to small business owners in my community and across the province?

Hon Greg Sorbara (Minister of Finance): I'm delighted to get that question from my friend from Mississauga East.

During the course of the campaign, we knocked on the doors of many of those small businesses. When we wrote the terms of Bill 2, the Fiscal Responsibility Act,

we had small business in mind. In fact, one measure in there will change the threshold for the minimum tax rate of 5.5% to $400,000, from $320,000. That alone will have a positive tax impact on

some 3,000 small businesses across the province, many of them in the riding of Mississauga East. I say to my friend, who is both a small business person himself and an Olympian athlete, that the

interest of small business is going to be right at the centre of our attention as we prepare our budget in the spring of next year.

Mr Fonseca: I'm so glad to hear that you recognize the difficult situation of small business owners across this province. It's important that

we ensure the well-being of these small businesses as they play an integral part and role in our communities in which they operate, as well as the economic well-being of our province as a whole.

Small businesses especially have been adversely affected by the financial mismanagement of the former Conservative government. Large deficits like the one the previous government left behind

affected small businesses disproportionately. Minister, can you tell me what you plan to do to deal with this mess?

Hon Mr Sorbara: Small business people in Ontario know that if they ran their businesses like the previous government ran the province, they

would no longer be in business. Within a few days, I will be bringing to this House the full economic statement which will set out the steps we're going to take to begin the reconstruction of

Ontario's finances.

What small business people need in this province is a system where public services are at the very highest quality and the tax system takes into consideration

the requirements of small businesses. Those two points will be central to the work that we do, not only over the course of the fall but throughout our first mandate in government.

SEVERANCE PAYMENTS

Mr Robert W. Runciman (Leeds-Grenville): Going back to the Minister of Finance, because we're not happy with his response related to

severance: If he looks back and reads the minutes from Hansard, he might understand why we're less than satisfied with his response. Mr Smitherman said not very long ago, when talking about the

severance of our leader, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." That's the language Mr Smitherman used, and you're refusing to repay your severance. The minister can give all sorts of

explanations and rationales, but the reality is that his party took a very different position when they were sitting on this side of the aisle. We're asking him to maintain that position, do the

right thing, stand up today and indicate that he will repay his severance.

Hon Greg Sorbara (Minister of Finance): It's passing strange to hear that question at this time from my friend for Leeds-Grenville who, two

months and six days ago today, was elected to the Ontario Legislature. Two months ago he asked the people of Leeds-Grenville for a mandate to sit in this Parliament, and already he is speculating

about giving up that mandate to run for another level of government. When he resigns from this Parliament, is he going to accept the severance that is due to him?

The Speaker (Hon Alvin Curling): Supplementary.

Mr John R. Baird (Nepean-Carleton): It goes to the central credibility of this government. This minister is the one responsible for the public

purse. He'll set the tone. He will send the message out to every public servant and every group coming for money. It's very simple. Will you stand in your place, do the right thing and pay back the

$35,000? He can even take out his pen and write the cheque out to himself, to the Minister of Finance. Will he do the honourable thing? Will he send the right message and lead by example?

Hon Mr Sorbara: I do not need any lectures on credibility from the member for Nepean-Carleton. There is a member who, in his former capacity

as energy minister, helped throw this province into a deep energy crisis.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Hon Mr Sorbara: My friend from Nepean-Carleton says, "Do the honourable thing." I think if my friend from Nepean-Carleton had the courage to

admit it, he would admit in this House that this is a rather sleazy, uncalled-for attack on my integrity, and I simply do not accept it.

The Speaker: Petitions.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Petitions.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Petitions? Orders of the day.

Interjection: What about petitions?

Hon Dwight Duncan (Minister of Energy, Government House Leader): We've gone to orders of the day.

The Speaker: I shouted "petitions" three times and no one stood up. We have an agenda here, and as we go through, I'd like members to be much

more orderly. The disorderliness has cost us some time, not even hearing me shouting it three times. I will go back to petitions.

PETITIONS

PROVINCIAL DEFICIT

Mrs Julia Munro (York North): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the government insists there is going to be a $5.6-deficit;

"Whereas the government campaigned on a `fully costed plan' that accounted for a $2-billion deficit;

"Whereas the government campaigned on `fully costed plan' that included a $1-billion contingency fund;

"Whereas the government campaigned on a `fully costed plan' which included over 230 promises;

"We, the undersigned, call upon the provincial government to take the responsible approach and immediately apply to the projected deficit the $3 billion the

government said they had set aside. We believe this will substantially increase Ontario's ability to balance the books during the current fiscal year and solve the financial dilemma faced by the

government."

I affix my signature to this.

EDUCATION FUNDING

Mr Garfield Dunlop (Simcoe North): My petition is to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas the government has chosen to give free bailouts to the Toronto District School Board and other school boards;

"Whereas the government believes it is appropriate to ignore the laws and allow school boards to run deficits;

"Whereas the government attempted to satisfy the demands of their union friends rather than demand fiscal accountability within the education system;

"Whereas the government's new education funding has been almost completely allotted to the Toronto area in order to satisfy the demands of their Toronto-based

Liberal ministers and promise-breaking colleagues;

"Whereas the government's new education funding is really just smoke and mirrors for a mass bailout of the Toronto District School Board;

"Whereas this government has chosen to raise the taxes of those who send their children to independent religious schools only to turn around and hand more

money to the Catholic school boards;

"We, the undersigned, call upon the provincial government to: stop covering for the school boards and allow real fiscal accountability and responsibility to

take shape within our province's education system. Stop bending to the demands of your union friends and make some tough decisions. Stop increasing the taxes of those who want to send their

children to a religious school that is not in line with Premier McGuinty's faith."

I'll sign that petition.

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

Mr Ted McMeekin (Ancaster-Dundas-Flamborough-Aldershot): I'm pleased to stand in my place to present petitions from the good people of the

former town of Ancaster, some 2,564 strong who have petitioned with about 83% of those approached signing the petition, which reads as follows:

"Petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas we voters living within the boundaries of what was formerly known as the town of Ancaster are dissatisfied with the form and the results of

amalgamation into the `new' city of Hamilton (for example, reduced services and increased municipal taxes); and

"Whereas we do not accept the authoritarian methods used to establish our current system of municipal government; and

"Whereas, in the Wentworth citizens' referendum held in 1997, an overwhelming majority" -- of some 96% -- "of those who participated expressed pointed

opposition to the amalgamation; and

"Whereas we consider it our democratic right to determine how we are governed;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows: to cause the holding of a binding referendum by means of which it would be

possible to re-establish our municipality, historically known as the great town of Ancaster."

SENIORS' PROPERTY TAX CREDIT

Mr Bill Murdoch (Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

"Whereas Liberal leader Dalton McGuinty has announced plans to scrap the Ontario Home Property Tax Relief for Seniors Act, eliminating this tax break for

renters and owners; and

"Whereas this tax relief would help Ontario seniors remain in their own apartments and houses, and assist them to meet rising costs; and

"Whereas this tax relief program would provide $450 million in net benefits for 945,000 senior households;

"We, the undersigned, respectfully petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

"That the government of Ontario support Ontario seniors and help them remain in their own homes by maintaining the PCs' Ontario home property tax relief for

seniors program and rejecting any proposal to take this tax break away from our senior citizens."

OPTOMETRISTS

Ms Shelley Martel (Nickel Belt): I have a petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly that reads as follows:

"Whereas the Legislative Assembly of the province of Ontario will be considering a private member's bill that aims to amend the Optometry Act to give

optometrists the authority to prescribe therapeutic pharmaceutical agents for the treatment of certain eye diseases; and

"Whereas optometrists are highly trained and equipped with the knowledge and specialized instrumentation needed to effectively diagnose and treat certain eye

problems; and

"Whereas extending the authority to prescribe TPAs to optometrists will help relieve the demands on ophthalmologists and physicians, who currently have the

exclusive domain for prescribing TPAs to optometry patients; and

"Whereas the bill introduced by New Democrat Peter Kormos (MPP -- Niagara Centre) will ensure that patients receive prompt, timely, one-stop care where

appropriate;

"Therefore, we support the bill proposing an amendment to the Optometry Act to give optometrists the authority to prescribe therapeutic pharmaceutical agents

for the treatment of certain eye diseases and we encourage the government of Ontario to ensure speedy passage of the bill."

I agree with the petitioners and I've affixed my signature to this.

PROVINCIAL DEFICIT

Mr John Yakabuski (Renfrew-Nipissing-Pembroke): "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the government insists there is going to be a deficit higher than $5.6 billion;

"Whereas this government is using old-style politics to demonize the past government at the expense of Ontario taxpayers;

"Whereas this government is using an inflated bogus deficit as a means to justify raising taxes on seniors, homeowners, job-creating businesses and

families;

"Whereas this government is using an inflated bogus deficit as a means to justify their plan to further hurt seniors by raising the cost of their prescription

drugs; and

"Whereas this government is using an inflated bogus deficit as a means to justify breaking even more promises;

"We, the undersigned, call upon the provincial government to stop playing dirty politics and start working for the taxpayers of this province."

I agree with this petition and I'm proud to affix my name to it.

SCHOOL CLOSURES

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): I have a petition to present to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario which reads as follows:

"Whereas Dalton McGuinty, our newly elected Premier, has publicly pledged to move quickly to re-establish local democracy when it comes to public education in

Ontario; and

"Whereas Mr McGuinty has publicly asked that `cuts and school closures' should be `set aside' and that `that business' should be left for the incoming, duly

elected trustees; and

"Whereas Mr Gerard Kennedy, our newly elected Minister of Education, has stated publicly that school boards aren't operating as closed shops any more; and

"Whereas there is universal support for the school amongst its staff, parent, and student body and the community at large; and

"Whereas Prince of Wales Public School in Barrie is the oldest continuously operating school in Simcoe county; and

"Whereas Prince of Wales Public School has been providing the community with quality education for more than 125 years; and

"Whereas the impact of the closure of Prince of Wales would be devastating on the whole of the downtown core, and most especially the urban neighbourhood which

the school serves;

"Be it resolved that we, the undersigned, demand that the Dalton McGuinty government live up to its commitment and ensure that community schools are not forced

to close and that specifically the Liberal government will immediately halt the closure of Prince of Wales Public School in Barrie."

I support it and affix my signature.

SMALL BUSINESS TAX RELIEF

Mr Bill Murdoch (Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound): I have another petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas business tax cuts have helped fuel the strongest economic and job growth ever seen in Canada; and

"Whereas corporate income taxes on small businesses that create most of our new jobs have been scheduled to be reduced to 5% in 2004 and 4% in 2005; and

"Whereas the corporate income tax rate for manufacturing and processing firms has been scheduled to be cut to 10% for 2004, 9% in 2005 and 8% in 2006; and

"Whereas the general corporate income tax rate has been scheduled to be 11% for 2004, 9.5% for 2005 and 8% for 2006; and

"Whereas the capital tax on employers is on the road to be cut by 10% in 2004, with a plan to scrap it entirely;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

"That the government of Ontario stay the course and maintain the scheduled tax reductions for job-creating businesses."

SCHOOL CLOSURES

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario which reads as follows:

"Whereas Dalton McGuinty, our newly elected Premier, has publicly pledged to move quickly to re-establish local democracy when it comes to public education in

Ontario; and

"Whereas Mr McGuinty has publicly asked that `cuts and school closures' should be `set aside' and that `that business' should be left for the incoming, duly

elected trustees; and

"Whereas Mr Gerard Kennedy, our newly elected Minister of Education, has stated publicly that school boards aren't operating as closed shops any more; and

"Whereas there is universal support for the school amongst its staff, parent, and student body and the community at large; and

"Whereas Prince of Wales Public School in Barrie is the oldest continuously operating school in Simcoe county; and

"Whereas Prince of Wales Public School has been providing the community with quality education for more than 125 years; and

"Whereas the impact of the closure of Prince of Wales would be devastating on the whole of the downtown core, and most especially the urban neighbourhood which

the school serves;

"Be it resolved that we, the undersigned, demand that the Dalton McGuinty government live up to its commitment and ensure that community schools are not forced

to close and that specifically the Liberal government will immediately halt the closure of Prince of Wales Public School in Barrie."

I support the petition and I affix my signature.

Mr Jim Wilson (Simcoe-Grey): "Whereas Dalton McGuinty, our newly elected Premier, has publicly pledged to move quickly to re-establish local

democracy when it comes to public education in Ontario; and

"Whereas Mr McGuinty has publicly asked that `cuts and school closures' should be `set aside' and that `that business' should be left for the incoming, duly

elected trustees; and

"Whereas Mr Gerard Kennedy, our newly elected Minister of Education, has stated publicly that school boards aren't operating as closed shops any more; and

"Whereas there is universal support for the school amongst its staff, parent, and student body and the community at large; and

"Whereas Prince of Wales Public School in Barrie is the oldest continuously operating school in Simcoe county; and

"Whereas Prince of Wales Public School has been providing the community with quality education for more than 125 years; and

"Whereas the impact of the closure of Prince of Wales would be devastating on the whole of the downtown core, and most especially the urban neighbourhood which

the school serves;

"Be it resolved that we, the undersigned, demand that the Dalton McGuinty government live up to its commitment and ensure that community schools are not forced

to close and that, specifically, the Liberal government will immediately halt the closure of Prince of Wales Public School in Barrie."

I've signed that petition and agree with it.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY ACT, 2003 /

LOI DE 2003 SUR LA GESTION

RESPONSABLE DES FINANCES

Resuming the debate adjourned on November 27, 2003, on the motion for second reading of Bill 2,

An Act respecting fiscal responsibility / Projet de loi 2,

Loi concernant la gestion responsable des finances.

The Deputy Speaker (Mr Bruce Crozier): Further debate.

Ms Laurel C. Broten (Etobicoke-Lakeshore): I'm very pleased to rise today and speak with respect to

An Act respecting fiscal

responsibility.

When we went out to the people of our various communities during the election campaign, we talked about and expressed our commitment to build an Ontario that

would offer better jobs and a higher quality of life for all Ontarians. We talked about our commitment that we, as a province, achieve our potential. The commitment we made to the people of this

province was that we would run a tight ship, build North America's best workforce, build an innovative economy and build a truly global Ontario.

It's a pleasure to rise and speak to this legislation because Bill 2, if passed, will keep a number of our government's key commitments to cancel several

irresponsible tax giveaways as part of the new government's plan to tackle the $5.6-billion deficit. This legislation is an important step toward meeting one of our core commitments: getting our

fiscal house in order. We made that commitment because it's the very foundation of everything we want for Ontarians and everything we know Ontarians want for themselves. These include excellence in

public education, improved health care, stronger communities and a prosperous economy.

The Fiscal Responsibility Act, 2003, proposes to do a number of things, and I want to highlight those various elements that we will be dealing with under this

act.

We're going to roll back the latest portion of the tax giveaway to corporations. We know it is important to maintain a competitive corporate tax rate while

ensuring Ontarians' capacity to provide quality public services. The general corporate income tax rate would increase to 14% and the manufacturing and processing tax rate would increase to 12%,

effective January 1, 2004.

We also know that we need a strong economy, and as was discussed earlier today, we need to work with small business to ensure that they are profitable across

the province. To help entrepreneurs and small business owners grow and flourish, small business with income below $400,000 would benefit from a lower small business tax rate, which would remain at

5.5% for 2004 and subsequent years.

We've also committed to eliminating the seniors' education property tax credit. This will help ensure good schools for Ontario's children. Our commitment in

Bill 2 will, if repealed, end current entitlements for seniors. Cancelling this measure would require consequential amendments to the Income Tax Act and the Municipal Act.

I want to talk about the importance of seniors to our various communities, in particular my own community of Etobicoke-Lakeshore. I had an opportunity during

the last campaign to knock on doors and speak to seniors about why they were committed to paying their education property tax. It had everything to do with their grandchildren. I think we can each

think about our own grandparents, about the consequences of tax cuts on our education system and how each of our grandparents hope that we will do better than the last generation as we go on to

various schools. I can think of grandmothers whom I've talked to on Norseman Avenue, for example, who raise: "I want to pay my education property tax because I want to make sure that my grandchild,

who is in grade 1, who is in grade 2, will have a small class size, will be able to learn."

The other thing this act commits to is the elimination of the tax giveaway for private schools -- again, a strong indication of our commitment to the public

education system and the need to keep that money in our public education system.

These are just some of the highlights that we will undertake through this legislation to move toward our key commitment of getting our fiscal house in

order.

I think what we heard from people during the last election was the importance of getting that fiscal house in order, because living within our means is not an

end in itself; it is rather a means to an end. It is the foundation upon which we will build the future of this province.

If we're honest about, and I think the people of this province were very honest about, the consequence of corporate taxation and irresponsible tax cuts, the

consequences of those tax cuts to the people of my community in Etobicoke-Lakeshore were extreme. We had an opportunity during the election to speak to people about the consequences of those tax

cuts. What they said was, "I don't want an extra dollar in my pocket. What I want to know is that we have sound public services; that my children's class is not overcrowded; that my grandmother

will be able to find a caring long-term-care facility; that if I need a family doctor, I will be able to have one; that we won't pollute our air with coal-fired generating facilities; that our

water won't be polluted."

What we saw in the last election was the rejection of an approach over the past number of years that we only cared about ourselves. I spoke to many people in

my own community, Etobicoke-Lakeshore up on the Kingsway, who said, "I am pleased to pay my taxes if I know that I am getting value for my tax dollar."

Coming with fiscal responsibility is the important step we are taking in making sure we do give value for tax dollars. I know it will be difficult for people

across the province to accept that we do need to turn a corner. We do need to ensure that we give value for taxes. Over the past week we were saddened, disappointed and unfortunately not surprised

by the report of the Provincial Auditor that was in essence a brutal indictment of the past government and their failures in giving value for those tax dollars. Ontarians know that we need to do

better across the province.

What we have been left with, as we turned the corner and changed the direction of this government, is two deficits: a $5.6-billion fiscal deficit and a massive

public safety deficit. We've seen mismanagement. We've seen monies misspent. With that history in place, I can understand the people in my community who approach us and say, "You must not waste my

tax money. You must not waste my tax dollars." We are saying to the people across the province and in my own riding, "We are not going to waste your tax dollars. We know that we need to do better

across this province and we are going to give you value for those dollars."

We're also going to do good and important things under this legislation such as increasing the tobacco tax. Smoking kills young people, old people, people

across this province in the thousands. There are four times more deaths associated with smoking than from car accidents, suicide and AIDS. We need to make sure that young people don't start

smoking. That is another sound component of this legislation.

Part of getting our fiscal house in order is to ensure that we build the future of this province on a base of rock rather than a base of sand. Although we

didn't create the deficit that we are in, this is the first positive step: that we move forward, that we change directions. We didn't create the problem. We are going to fix it.

It's a responsible approach to governing. It's one that will give taxpayers value for the taxes that they entrust to the government to spend wisely. It is one

that will better our province as we move forward in years to come. You don't build a better Ontario by wasting money, absolutely you don't. You don't build a better Ontario by crippling our

education system, by cutting the funds available to our health care system, by not ensuring that our seniors have proper care, by polluting our air, by destroying our water system. Those are all

important things that the people across this province have chosen in the last election that we reinvest in, that public infrastructure.

This is a first step to give people the straight goods, to move forward and to make sure that we as a province protect those future investments and that we

have both a strong fiscal house in order and that we also have a very strong p