Manitoba Hansard — 19 Aprll 1994 (Sitting 9, 35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-9

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Roctm Speaker Vol. XLill No.9· 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, Aprll 19, 1994 JSSN 0542-5491

NAME ASIITON, Steve BARRETI, Becky CARST AIRS, Sharon CER.ll.-LI, Marianne CHOMIAK. Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER., Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRJEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS,Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political AfflUatlon CONSTITUENCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. Jame� Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley GAUDRY. Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli HELWER, Edward R. HICKES, George KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA1HL1N, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Tun MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCORMICK, Nonna McCRAE,Jatnes,Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. P ALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID.

Daryl REIMER. Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry STEP ANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVElNSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Point Douglas The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Osborne Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St.

Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Rossmere Kirkfield Parlt Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry Swan River PARTY NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Liberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP

381 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, April19, 1994 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Old Age Pension Request to Federal Government Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Marie Seaton, George Hickey, Marion Wheaton and others requesting the Legislative Assembly urge the federal government not to make any changes to the age of eligibility for old age pensions and a copy of this petition be sent to the federal Minister of Fmance. Curran Contract Cancellation and Pharmacare and Home Care Reinstatement Ms.

Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Bill Ormonde, Fred Tycoles, Kim Budge and others requesting the Legislat ive Assem bly of Manitoba urge the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to personally step in and order the cancellation of the Connie Curran contract and consider cancelling the recent cuts to the Pharmacare and Home Care programs. Handi-Transit Service Long· Term Plan Mr. Geo rge Dickes (P oin t Douglas): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Barry Hammond, Scott Kroeker, Harold Shuster and others requesting the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mrs. Mcintosh) to consider working with the City of Winnipeg and the disabled to develop a long-term plan to maintain Handi-Transit service and ensure that disabled Manitobans will continue to have access to Handi-Transit service. Curran Contract Cancellation and Pharmacare and Home Care Reinstatement Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of D. Abarientos, C.

Bewsky, Gildred Aloro and others requesting the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Premier (Mr. Fllmon) to personally step in and order the cancellation of the Connie Curran contract and consider cancelling the recent cuts to the Pharmacare and Home Care programs. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS APM Incorporated Remuneration and Pharmacare and Home Care Reinstatement Mr. Speaker. I have reviewed the petition of b honourable member (Mr. Maloway). It complies with the privileges and the pmctices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. The petition of the un dersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the Mani toba go ve rnm ent 1ras repeat edly broken promises to support the Pharmacare program and has in fact cut benefits and increased deductibles far above the injlatio11 rate; and

WHEREAS the Plrarmacare program was brought in by the NDP as a preventative program which keeps people out of costly hospital beds and institutio ns; and

WHEREAS rather than cu ttin g benefits and increasing deductibles the provincial government should be demand ing the federal government cancel recent cuts to generic drugs tl10t occurred under the Drug Patent Act; and

382 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Aprill9, 1994

WHEREAS at the same time Manitoba government has also cut home care and im plement ed user fees,· and

WHEREAS the Manitoba government paid an American health care consult ant over $4 million to im plement further cuts in health care. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly urge the Premier to personally step in and order the repayment of the $4 million paid to Connie Curran and her firm APM Incorporated and consider cancelling the recent cuts to the Pharmacare and Home Care programs. •

(1335) TABLING OF REPORTS Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Min ister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the Annual Report 1992-93 of the Department of Urban Affairs. Bon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): I would like to table two reports: the Annual Report 1992-93 of The Manitoba Water Services Board and the Annual Report 1993 of The Municipal Board. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of all honourable members to the gallery where we have this afternoon 17 teachers from Thailand under the direction of Mr. Wayne Eons and Mr.

Rob Be nd of Dakota Collegiate. They are guests of the Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Dacquay) and the honourable Minister of Government Services (Mr. Ducharme). Also this afternoon, from the Grant Park High School we have twenty-eight Grade 11 students under the direction of Mr. Norman Roseman. 'Ibis school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray). Also, from the Edward Schreyer School we have ninety Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Bob Grant, Mayor Don Mazur and Mrs. Susan Sh edno vack.

This school is loca ted in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Pramik). On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Advertising Guidelines Tabling Request Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Premier. Last fall I wrote to the Provincial Auditor dealing with ads that the government had paid for with taxpayers' money labelled, the Film on government has done this and done that.

The Auditor wrote back and said: I have written the Minister of Finance recommending that the government consider developing more explicit guidelines in this area, specifically defining to what extent to which the political element is acceptable in ads paid with taxpayers' dollars. I would like to ask the Premier today whether he could table the guidelines for advertising to delineate between ads for the public interest and ads that should be properly paid for by political parties. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speak er, firstly, this government is doing no more, in fact probably less in the way of advertising than the New Democ ratic governme nt of which this member was a part ever did. They took out full-page ads with the picture of Howard Pawley. You may recall I tabled one in the Legislature because they did not even have his name spelled right. They took out all sorts of ads for all sorts of purposes that were more than a little questionable. The member has very little credibility making this kind of assertion in the House.

I will tell him that we, as we always do, take seriously recommendations from the Auditor and what the Auditor requests is being done. As soon as we have more to report, we certainly will. Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Advertising Campaign Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I would ask the government to table the

Aprill9 , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 383 guideli nes which were recommen ded in November. 1bis is the first time ever, that we can recall, that the Provincial Auditor bas raised this issue and asked that the guidelines be developed by a government- An Honourable Member: She said we were right and you were wrong. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, if the Premier is unable to produce the guidelines five months later, that is very unfortunate for the people of this province. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier bow much money is being spent for the provincial Lotteries Corporation ads. Who was involved in designing those ads? Was the Premier's Office in volved in designing those ads? Would that money not be better spent on programs such as the Village Clinic that bas been cut back, rather than advertising that it is being paid for under that jurisdiction? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I would say, just to correct the member opposite, that the Provincial Auditor did not raise this issue. The Leader of the Opposition raised the issue as a political issue.

She did not recommend any guidelines to us. She did not say we were wrong. She said that it might be wise to have those guidelines . [interjection] Well, Mr. Speaker, the hypocrisy of the members opposite on this issue. When they were in government, they spent a mi llion dollars adverti sing Limestone, Mr. Speaker. Did anybody need to know about Lime stone, a Manitoba Hydro investment that was being made as a government policy?

They had to spend a million dollars advertising it, including over $200,000 to a firm from Montreal that they hired to handle the advertising campaign and the publicity campaign for Limestone. It is shocking, the hypocrisy of this member opposite-shocking. Rural Economic Development Advertising Campaign Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I have asked the government for the guidelines; they cannot produce them. I have asked the govemmem how much money the Lott eries ad cost; be cannot produce that.

I have asked whether that money would be better spent on clinics that this particular government bas cut back; he cannot produce thai: answer. I will ask another questioo, Mr. Speaker. Is the gover nment conte mplating running pre-election ads on rural economic development? Has the Pre mier's staff bee n invo lv ed ia developing those ads, and how much will it cost the taxpayers if you are producing those ads7 •

(1340) Bon. Gary Filmon (Premler): Mr. Speaker, I am sorry that the Leader of the Opposition is in such desperate straits these days that he bas to try and manufacture an issue like this. This gover nment is spending far less ia advertising than the govennn ent of which he was a part ever did. This govemment will go along willa the recommendations of the Provincial Auditor. We will come forward with the guidelines, and we will provide all the infomationhe bas requested in due course. Universities Funding Formula Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon): Mr.

Speaker, we are not generally expecting any honesty from the government this session in this pre-election period. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Education. A few days ago, in answer to questions about the grant that is being contemplated for the University of Manito ba and universities in this province, the Minister of Education refused to answer what allocation would be going to the university. Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Education and Training is: Given that the university's responcoe to the secret allocation that apparently the minister has authorized be given to

384 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l9 , 1994 the university suggests, and I quote, that spending authorization approved by the board on March 24 was based on a 6 percent overall reduction, can the minister now clear up for this House what is the reduction that the universities fa ce? Is it 6 percent? Is it 4 percent? Is it 3 percent? Mr. Speaker, people 's lives, the lives of the students who are going to these institutions, are aff ected by these decisions. Will he now tell the people of Manitoba what he has already told the universities-how much are they cutting? Bon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Train ing): That inform ation will be abundantly clear come tomorrow. An Honourable Member: What is the secret? Mr. Manness: The member says, what is the secret I am fo llowing a long-standing practice also put into place by the fo rmer government when most of the spending decisions of government, expenditure decisions, have been released within the booklet of Estimates. Mr. Speaker, I am keeping with that practice. That will be available tomorrow when the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) tables his budget. Mr. Speaker, let me say what I did do, though.

I did tell the presidents of the universities when they came to see me in late February that I would try and share with them before the end of March some of the details, some of the broad funding level, in confidence . I have done that. I have kept my word to that end, and so the universities in a broad funding sense know the level of support they will be receiving. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, in this University of Manitoba response, they say that 4 percent will be the actual reduction that impacts on each unit in the university. My que stion is to the Deputy Premier (Mr.

Downey) and the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism. Given that the Faculty of Agriculture , the Facu lty of Engin eeri ng, the Facult y of Archit ec ture , fac ul ties and staf f who are co mmi tted to economic development, the improvement of our economic activity in the province, faculties that are going to create the future entrepreneurs that this province needs those fac ulties are going to be cut, staffing is going to be cut.

How does this jive with the recommendations in the Roblin commission that say we have to tie the educational system and the economic activity in the province together when we are cutting back like this? Mr. Manness! Mr. Speaker, the question coming from the NDP benches rings hollo w when members opposite talk about ec onomic development. Mr. Speaker, I am well aware of what the Roblin report has recommended. We will be making a full response with respect to the recommendations that flow within that report. Mr.

Speaker, let me point out, the issue here with respect to university fundin g and the decisions internal to the level of provincial funding are no diff erent within the university setting than they are within the public school system. Mr. Speaker, those who are receiving the lion's share, in this case 80 percent of the funding , they are the ones that ultimately in society today, whether it is in Manitoba, whether it is in any other province in Canada, or anywhere else in the western world, are going to have to decide how they want to call upon those finite resources.

Indeed, if the facu lty, staff and those providing services at universities are not going to take less, then obviously there is going to be some impact on the total number that are employed. The fo rmula is very, very simple. I know the member for Flin Flon can understand it. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, yesterday, one of the questions raised on this side was the question of this government's sense of responsibility. They make the cuts and then they consult. Mr. Speaker, my question: Has the Minister of Education and Training sat down with the fac ulties that are going to be aff ected by this cutback, as

Apri11 9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 385 much as 6 pe rcent we understand from the university's response , and determ ined what the impact is going to be on those faculties particularly that support economic development and economic activity in this province? Has the minister done that prior to making this announcement? • (13 45) Mr. Manness: Mr.

Speaker, no, we are following the same format that has been in place in this province basically for 25 years, and that is, a global amount is all ocated to the Universities Grants Co mmission, and the Uni ver sities Grants Commission alloca tes that between universities. That formula has not changed. I dare say that the Roblin report, of course, when you look at the recomm endations, is challenging the management and indeed the boards at various universities to begin to lay into place priorities.

That will be the broader challenge that society is going to ask the universi ties to take and decide, ultimately, within the scarce resource s, which of the faculties are going to receive the larger share. I accept what the member is saying. Indeed, that will be the challenge that will be put to all universities, not only in Manitoba but across the land. Economic Growth Rate Government Prediction Mr. Pau l Edwa rds (L ead er of the Second Oppositio n): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. Tomorrow is budget day yet again in Manitoba.

What would be nice would be to have our provincial government actually accurately predict the growth rate in this province. Over the last five ye ars, the government has every year overestimated growth. That is the key prediction for the government to make, because flowing from that the revenue predictions are made. The total misprediction is 7.6 percent over those five years. In 1989 they predicted 3.5; we got 1.1 . In 1990 they predicted 2; we got 1.6, and so on and so forth. Every year they have not just been wrong. they have overestimated growth. The gove mme ot has never been right in the last five years.

What assurances can this minister give the public that they will e ven be close this year to the rea l growth that is going to happen in this province? Does the minister have anew computed Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, first of all, the Leader of the second opposition party makes an incorrect assumption in directly tying revenue to economic growth. There is a corre lation, but there is not a direct relationship betw een economic growth in your province and what your revenues will be, because of the types of revenues that the province does in fact receive.

If he took the time to look back at the last two fiscal years in particular, 1993-94 that we just completed, '92-93, he will note that basically our projections, the areas within our jurisdictio� within our control, our own revenue sources. our own ex penditures are right on targeL If you look at the reduction in 1993-94, it was primarily driven by one item, and that was a significan t reduction mid-year in our transfer payments from Ottawa. That is what drove it. Those numbers are provided at the start of the year to all recipient provinces. No recipient province anticipated those kinds of reductions.

If you look at the results today in terms ofbow provinces have fared, New Brunswick is off by $1 00 mill ion, Prince Edward Island has come ia with their budget being double what it was projected to be, a province like Saskatchewan was off the mark-although I know the Leader of the Opposition suggests that they were on the mark -but because of a change in accounting they were able to book back in excess of $1 50 million. I will say to the Leader of the second opposition party, our projections are the best that they can be at the point in time when you deliver a budget.

I have a great deal of confidence in the numbers that have both been provided in the past and, certainly. the numbers that we will be providing to this House tomorrow, Mr. Speaker.

386 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1994 Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, this is the great government of pass the buck. The fact is not only have they been wrong every year, every year they have overestimated all of those unknown factors. How come every year they overestimate growth? Provincial Deficit Government Prediction Mr. Paul Edwa rds (Leader of the Second Opposition): My second question for the minister, Mr. Speaker. In addition to always overestimating growth, they chronically underestimate deficit.

They underestimated it in four of the last five years by a total amount of $473 mill ion, almost $100 million a year. The difference this year is that the government has the opportunity to call an election before they are proven wrong. This will be the year where they will not have to account for the numbers they get wrong. My question for the Minister of Fmance: Has he got a new method, because he has never been right, he has always overestimated growth and he has alway s undere st imated the defici t. What assurances can he give the voters of this province this year that he might be close? •

(1350) Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of F'mance): Mr. Speaker, I can tell by the supplementary question that the Leader of the Second Opposition Party did not listen to a word I said. It is abundantly clear by his supplementary question. I just indicated to him, in 1993-94, our own revenue sources are right on target, our own expenditures are right on target, and the issue that has driven the adjustment in the deficit is the reduction in equalization payments as has occurred right across Canada.

I have had the opportunity to speak with the bond grading age ncies, to speak with the underwriters, and I can tell you and this House, Mr. Speaker, that they highly regard the Province of Manitoba, and that is why you get comments from organi zations, like the Dominion Bond Rating compa ny, ca lling Manitoba the most fiscally responsible government in all of Canada since 1987. Economic Growth Ra te Government Prediction Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, they have never, ever been right.

They have never been right not only on growth, not only on deficit, but the great long range foreca sting tha t was pro mised at th e beginning of this government, Sir. They have never been right on that. In the last four years, they have missed that by $920 million. My question for the minister: They have been wrong on these ev ery year. Why have they consistently taken the approach that the minister takes today, the Brian Mulroney, Kim Campbell approach--it is somebody else's fault; we do not really know?

Why do they not be honest with the people of this province and tell us what the real growth rate is, because the real growth rate is way behind the national average? The 16,000 people who are not working today, who were five years ago, they know that Why does not this Minister of Finance? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): I guess, Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the second opposition party is fall ing into that rut that if you repeat an inaccuracy over and over, sooner or later some people are going to believe it, and maybe the media will report it.

All I can do is repeat to him, if he looks at the Estimates in '93-94, if he looks at the Estimates in '92-93, credibility is built around your ability in terms of your own numbers, the numbers that you provide and your ability to come in on target on those numbers, and we have done just that. If you look at the adjustments that have flowed from the federal government in terms of equalization, those have been the issues that have adjusted our bottom line.

As has happened, if the member of the second opposition party wants to call and contact some of his colleagues in Prince Edward Island, if he wants to talk to somebody in New Brunswick and find out and take the time to

Aprill9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 387 understand transfer payments, I know equalization is a complicated formula, but I would encourage the Leader of the Second Opposition to take the time. He talks about wanting to do balance in this House, to come and speak with knowledge on issues and to bring credibility in terms of dealing with issues, Mr. Speaker. I encourage him to do that, to take the time to look at those kinds of issues and to do his homework before he asks any questions. Health Care System Reform Consultations Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr.

Speaker, as the minister is aware, many useful suggestions have been made regarding real health reform. I note from a document that I reviewed this morning that a number of matters about real reform have not been dealt with, things like poverty, growth, fee for service, the high price of technology, the high price of drugs, the expanded role of nursing, an expanded community-based health care. None of these things have been done by this government When will this government stop slashing and cutting and deal with the real aspects of health reform as indicated in that document'? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister or Health): The honourable member is correct. Much has been done and much remains to be done, and we will be improving our health care system and making it sustainable by working very closely with health care providers and consumers in this province, as we have been doing for the past several years. The honourable member's suggestion leads one to the conclusion that the main plank in the campaign platform of the New Democratic Party today in this House and outside is that we should consult. We ll, Mr.

Speaker, you cannot have consult on the one hand, pandering on the other, especially when quality consultation is exactly what has been going on in this province. I will be speaking shortly after Question Period today, I understand, and will outline some of the moves forward we have made, but the honourable member and his co lleagues are not partners, unfortu nately. I have repeatedly invited the honourable member to become a partner and he has opted not to do that, and I can only wonder why. *

(1355) Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, all of those points that I suggested the government has not moved on health reform are part of the minister 's owD document which he probably has not read. They have been cutting and slashing and not even dealing with their own document My supplementary to the minister is: Since the MNU this morning has put out a working paper that suggests many of the same things in the MNU doc umen t that the gove rnment originally sug gest ed have been done, what wil l the government do to actually involve the communi1y in real health reform'? Mr.

McCrae: I refuse to accept the policies that the honourable members opposite embrare, those being the pol ic ies emb arked on in our neighbouring provinces of Ontario, Saskatchewan. Alberta and British Col umbia. All of those provinres, because they left reform too late, have had to embark on a slash-and-bum approach to health care reform. We have not been doing that. The document the honourable member refers to is one that I refer to very frequently in my now 44 communities that I have visited in this province, and it continues to enjoy unanimous support.

The honourable member says he supports it, b.a everything he does and says works again-;t the achi evement of the goals outlined in that document, Mr. Speaker. Consultations-Nursing Organizations Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): My final su pplementary to the minis ter: Wi ll the government which has now included doctors in 14 more of the 46 committees working on health reform, will the minister undertake today to promise this House that nurses aides, members of the community and other caregivers will be included in these 46 working committees of which 27 now have doctors, Mr. Speaker?

388 LEGISLATIVE ASSE:MBL Y OF MANITOBA April19, 1994 Hon. James McC rae (Minister of Health): Recently, Mr. Speaker, we were not able to partner as well as we should with members of the medical profession. For many, many years in Ma nitoba, governments have had quite a problem reaching an understanding with the medical profession.

We have been able to do that and we are very pleased, because I think it was yesterday the honourable member or his colleague referred to physicians as the gatekeepers, and if yo u do not have the co-operation and support for reform measures by those gateke epers, you are not going to get very far. Our door is wide open for members of the nursing profession. We already work with many, many members of the nursing profession on many, many of these committees, and will continue to do so. We value their input.

The honourable member's input always has a slant to it that has little to do with patient care and everything to do with labour issues, Mr. Speaker, and sometimes that is not so helpful. Education System Guidance Coun selling Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, child abuse is a serious and growing problem in our society today, partially as a result of economic policies that have led to greater poverty and unemployment. Violence is another problem in the schools that is growing, as well as substance abuse.

There are mor e broken families during these difficult economic times that are taking place at this time, and yet this government has seen fit to eliminate many guidance counsellors, which is obviously a growing need in our schools as a result of its funding policies over the last couple of years. I want to ask the minister how he is proposing to deal with this growing need in our schools and in soc iety in the form of curriculum and other program development for the schools. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Well, Mr.

Speaker, the question posed by the member is so far-reaching and is so fundamental to so many of the discussions that are taking place with respect to all levels of society today, I think it is unfair that he tries to cast in the terms of the education system being the solution to all of society's ills. So, Mr. Speaker, I recognize full well that we have tried in society through our education system to reach out to many of the realities of difficulty within society, and to that end we will continue to try to do our best.

I am not one who stands here and believes that the education system, in itself, can fix all the problems that the member has brought forward in his question. *

(1400) Mr. Plo bman: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister, in view of the fact that he acknowledges that the education system plays a very important role in dealing with this issue, why he has cut, eliminated the position responsible for guidance and child abuse program development in his Curriculum Branch as a result of his latest moves in reduci ng and devastating the Curriculum Branch in this province. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I was ch astised before by the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie), the bench seatmate of the member for Dauphin, for not disclosing university funding.

I can say to the member, there will be information. It will be forthcoming in the budget that will dea l again with the curr iculum development branch. Mr. Speaker, I would say to the member for Dauphin also, wait until tomorrow when there will be greater certainty around not only the question that he poses but indeed the question posed by the member for Flin Flon. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, that is precisely why we are asking the question now.

If that position has been eliminated in times of growing need, we want a commitment from this minister, and that is what I am asking for, that he will in fact expand these services rather than eliminate those services during the time that they are in greatest need by the public and by the schools of Manitoba.

April l9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 389 Mr . Manness: Mr. Speaker, if I thought for one moment that filling that position would correct the societal problems that we have, I would have filled that position on coming into office. The member may like to try and make those viewers believe that because we do not have this one consultant position filled, we therefore are the cause of the problems he brings before us. I do not think many people are going to believe that. I know they will not.

I know they understand that in education refonn, all of us are going to have to come to grips in a meaningful way with the questions the member brings forward today. Work force 2000 Northern Blower Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Labour. Would the minister tell the House whether or not the $80,000 of Workforce 2000 rebate granted to Northern Blower over the last two years for technological training has been or will be used to train those who have taken the jobs of workers who have been on strike since the summer of 1992? Hon. Darre n Praznik (Minister of Labour): Mr.

Speaker, I am not sure what the member for Wolseley is trying to achieve. We as a go vernment do not interfere in the negoti ations between comp anies and thei r employees. We do not think it is appropriate to do that That dispute is obviously ongoing. One hopes it will be settled. Conciliation services have always been available, but I do not think it is right for the Ministry of Labour to be involved in choosing one side or another in a particular labour dispute. Workforce 2000 Northern Blowe r Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, my supplemental)' is to the Minister of Education.

Would he undertake to table the curr iculum of the training programs at Northern Blower to which the taxpayers have contributed $80,000, so that we may confirm publicly what the Minister of Labour has refused to answer, whether or not this money was used to train replacement wotkers? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Edacatioa and Training): Mr. Speaker. I see at least the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) is off this tra ck. He does not dare rise again and ask questions on this. But, Mr. Speaker, themvitationorthe plea thatl provided to the member for Elmwood, I guess I also extend to the member for Wolseley.

If sbe wants me to be able to answer questions specific to any company which bas received some offset. either against payroll tax and/or a grant after training has been provided under the Workforce 2000 plan, I ask her just to give me a call in the morning so I can bring some of that info.onation to the House. Now today I have infonnation with respect to yesterday's question which was on IBM. and I am prepared to provide it. I would gladly provide infonnation on Northern Blower if that is the company of which the member asked a question today. But, Mr.

Speaker, I have to have some prior notice to that and I will attempt in taking notice to give an answer on that company tomorrow. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, I do not think the minister listened to my question. My questioa addressed principle. Would the minister undertake, I said, to table the curriculum of the training program for which the taxpayers have paid $80,000? I ask the minister again-it is a principle-will he on principle table that curriculum for which the taxpayers have paid? Mr. Manness: Well, Mr. Speaker, I will give a general response to the question.

As I do not have the curriculum of the institutions of which we fund so greatly, partic ularly the University of Manitoba and indeed all the other universities, as a matter of fact the same institution in which the member for Wol seley was a professor, I do not have the curriculum indeed for many of these areas. But I can assure the member that we have people who monitor that curriculum and see exactly the in-bouse trai ning that does take place, see specifically what is imparted by way of training

390 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1994 knowledge to those employees. Our staff look at that and make a jud gment and ultimately recommend to the branch whether or not that course of training within the private company is supportable by way of grant and/or payroll tax offset. That has happened in this case, as has happened also within IDM. Post-Secondary Education Access Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, since 1991 student financial assistance in this province has decreased some 24 percent. We also know that with tomorrow's budget there will be significant cuts to grants to universities.

We know that oftentimes the cuts to universities will be borne by students who will have to pay increased tuition costs and those increased tuition costs particularly affect lower-income students. My question for the Minister of Education is: What measures will the minister be taking to ensure that students from all socioeconomic backgrounds will be able to afford a university education? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I think the member will have to wait until tomorrow to see some of the changes that are expected to come forward with respect to student loans.

The member is probably well aware of the dialogue that has been in place with respect to a new program between the federal and provincial governme nts . They are talking about a new cost-sharing dimension with respect to student loans. I will give a fuller explanation of how it is we will fund our contr ib ution to that new methodology that by all appearances is going to be in place. Student Fmancial Assistance Funding Levels Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary to the same minister: We know that the federal government has in fact announced an increase in student loans.

We also know that we have st ill seen a decrease provincially in student financial assistance. My question to the minister is: Can he assure us that, in fact, student fmancial assistance in this province will at least be restored to what the levels were in 1991? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Well, Mr. Speaker, I cannot assure the member that. I can assure that there will be a significant level of funding in place, possibly more, but the method by which it is made available to students, obviously, may be different.

So I know my comments, of course, beg further questions and, to that end, I will explain that in further detail tomorrow and the next day. Post-Secondary Education Access Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood ): Mr. Speaker, with a final supplemen tary to the Minister of Education. We know that the unemployment rate for young Manitobans now stands at 17 percent, and many university students are only going to university part time or one-quarter time because they have difficulty raising money and in fact finding work.

Can the Minister of Education, if he is not prepared to release the budget figures, at least tell this House what st rategy he has to specifically ensure that students in this province can access post-secondary education? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I cannot envisage a situat ion where a government anywhere in this land will be denying a support to those who want to legitimately avail the mselves of the opportunities that exist within post-secondary education. Our government is no different.

There will be a significant number of resources that are directed towards that end. Seeing the member referenced 17 percent youth unemployment, I point out to her that it was just a month ago there was 22 percent. So we know we

Apri11 9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 391 are trending down, as a government, in the right way, and we know that the supports that we have in place, which will be detailed tomorrow, will help continue to maintain that trend. • (1 410) Mental Health Care Rural Stress Line Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr.

Speaker, the Canadian Mental Health Association, at the request of farm organizations, Manitoba Pool, Women's Institute and many others, have undertaken to develop a rural stress line for rural residents because they recognize that there is a lack of services in rural Manit oba and farm families are under a tremendous amount of stress. Rural organizations and businesses have supported by direct donations. People have lobbied the government; we have asked the government questions on this, but to date they have not indicated their support for the rural stress line.

Will the Minister of Health today indicate whether he recognized the importance of this service, and will he indicate whether his government will put money in place to support the rural stress line? Bon. James McCr ae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, there might be a lot less stress in rural Manitoba if some people would come clean on where they stand with resp ect to economic development in places like Swan River, for example.

It would relieve a lot of stress if people in the Swan River area knew where their member of the Legislative Assembly stood on the whole Louisiana Pacific proposal and the oriented strand board plant proposal, and the honourable member could help a lot if she would shed some light on that and show some sup port for economic development in our rural communities. Mr. Spea ker, the hono ur able member's question, however, deals with a serious matter relating to farm and rural stress that from time to time exists.

I have been working with the Canadian Mental Health Association, with the Pools, with the Keystone Agricultural Producers in discussing potential plans for a farm and rural stress line. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker , if the Mini ster of Health will check the record in Hansard, he would know exactly where I stand on the issue he raised. Will the minister recognize that the services in rural Manitoba are not adequate and the proposed stress line is greatly needed and he should not be afraid to put money into it? Will he recognize that this is preventative health and something that his government should be supporting?

Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, through the changes to the mental health service delivery in Manitoba, we are enhancing very, very significantly mental health services in rural Manitoba and in northem Manitoba. The honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) will bear witness to the fact that I was extremely pleased to be able to announce that we are going to be putting about 40 people to wotk enhancing mental health services in the Thompson area. The honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) and the honourable member for F1in Flon (Mr.

Storie), I think, are aware tbal we are going to be putt ing about 20 people to work enhanciDJ mental health services in their areas. This is happ ening in Westman, in Eastman, north ao4 south as well as Interlake. As I began to say to you in my last answer, we are working with these various groups to see what role the government can play in getting such a program started. I have made it clear to those proponents of the program that we do not want to own this program but that we are willing to discuss becoming a partner in getting it started. Ms. Wowc huk: Mr.

Spea ker, since ot her provinces recognize that rural people deserve services equal to urban people and other provinces recognize that this service is important, businesses recognize that this service is important, will the minister, today, indicate whether or not he is standing with the farm organ izations and rural business people and support this service to rural Manitobans? Mr . McCrae: Mr. Speaker, since I was elected to this House in 1986 I have been standing with any

392 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April19, 1994 organization working towards the enhancement of rural and farm life. I do that along with all of my colleagues on this side and we do so very willingly because those are the people we represent. I would like to know where the honourable member stands on issues like Ayerst Organics, on issues like Louisiana Pacific. I would like to have their fu ll-blown support for these proposals because we want to put people to work in this province. Mr. Speaker: The honourable me mber for St. Johns has time for one very short question. Domestic Violence Court Backlog Mr.

Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, just when there is an alarming increase in youth crime in Manitoba and an increase in the reported incidence of spousal abuse, and given backlogs of up to one year in the Provincial Court of Manitoba, of all times, this government cuts back on the judges available to deal with this crisis. I might remind the Minister of Justice a fact of which she is aware, that women in Manitoba abused by their partner just two or three months ago are now being told that the accused will not go to trial until January of 1995.

I ask the Minister of Justice: Will she table information in this House showing how bad the backlog will be in the Provincial Court once Manitoba is deprived of the equivalent of three judges in the short term and, to my understanding, six judges permanently? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Att orney General): Mr . Sp eaker, the member is, I believe, continuing to confuse the issues of the operation of the courts and the domestic violence court in which we are taking a very act ive stand and a very active role in attempting to reduce the backlog within the domestic violence court.

Let me also correct him again. He continues to make a mistake today that he has made on other occasions, and I think it is very important to let the people of Manitoba know that there are three vacancies on the court now and those vacancies exist because one judge has become the chief provincial court judge, another has moved to the Court of Queen's Bench and another has resigned.

I ma de it clear yesterday in answering the question that the process is in place that we will be filling those vacancies, and in addition to any further retirements judges are now indicating to the chief provincial court judge those who wish to retire will continue to work up to approximately 90 days. So we certainly are making every effort to ensure that there is not a backlog on the courts of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. NONPOLnnCAL STATEMENTS Western Canadian Bantam AAA Hockey Championship Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Rur al Developme nt have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Bon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to rise in the House today to recognize a group of young Manitoba athletes who are to be highly commended for their superior hockey talent which was recently showcased at the Western Canadian Bantam AAA Hockey Championships held in Kamloops, British Columbia.

This energetic team is widely known as the Russell Rangers and were the first rural team in the history of Manitoba to represent our province in the championship games. The whirlwind tour started in Dauphin when the Russell Rangers came to Dauphin and defeated the Winnipeg Monarchs to become the first-ever rural team to seize the Ma nitob a Ba nt am Championships. After a grueling weekend in Kamloops, Mr. Speaker, the Russell Bantams overcame the Prince Albert Pirates 4-2 for the bronze medal.

April19, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 393 This team consists of ten 15-year-old players and six 14-year-old players, all from the Russell area. Their names are Ryan Robson, Corey McNabb, Kevin Marygold, Shaun Schmitz, John Witzke, Daniel Bulischak, Kenny Chuchmuch, Ni gel Rubeniuk, Dion Descha mps, Jon Montgomery, Dion Petz, Sean O'Brien, Andrew Fenton, Jarrett Adam and Devron Kobluk. Also, I would like to make a special mention of the Russell Bantams goalie, Danny Bulischak, whose outstanding talent earned him the most va lua ble player in this tournament.

Another member of the team, centre Ryan Robson, was named to the all-star team, a great honour for Ryan and also for the team. I would also like to give special mention to the Rangers' coaches, Mr. Bob Chuchmuch, Gary Petz and Ken Schmitz, who have dedicated their time, their energy and their love of the sport to do everything they possibly could to make this team the best they can be. I ask all members of the House to join me today, Mr. Speaker, in congratulating this fine group of young Manitobans. •

(1420) Manitoba Winter Games Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable Minister of Energy and Mines have leave to ma ke a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Bon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, on Friday last I made a nonpolitical statement. The Moffat family, Bob and Uz- Hansard indicates that they were in the 40-over category. They were in the 40-under category, and they might take some offence at being in the wrong age group. They were gold and silver medal winners respectively. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Eighth Day of Debate) Mr.

Speaker: On the adjourned debate, the eighth day of debate, on the proposed motion of the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), for an addre ss to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, in answer to his speech at the opening of the session. The matter is open. Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): :Mr. Speaker, earlier in Question Period, I indicated that I would have a chance to speak later. One of the members opposite, the member for Wellington (Ms.

Barrett) suggested that I might not get to taJk very long, and she was right because my speech time today is limited by an all-party agreement So the honourable member for Wellington ought to check with her House leader before she makes comments like that from her seat. I go along willingly with the agreement. As a former House leader, I know how these things get worked out. I mention that, though, for the benefit of the honourable member for Wellington. An Honourable Member: No, no, you can go as long as you want, Jim. Mr. McCrae: I thought we had an agreement? Mr.

Speaker, like all the others, I am pleased to join in this debate and thank you for your fine service to the House • I call attention to the first Speech from the Throne from our new Lieutenant-Governor in whom I and many other Manitobans are extremely well pleased. We believe he is well positioned to bring grace and dignity to the job that he does as he is doing. (Mr. Marcel Laureodeau. Acting Speaker, in tbe Chair) I join the others, also, in welcoming an the new members to this Legislature. I wish them well in their work.

I suggest that their constituents will be bette r served if we all work together as co-operatively as we can. This is a throne speech which I am pleased to support, having listened to a few of them in my time in this place. I think the one we heard recently here, read by His Honour the Lieute nant Governor, is one that ranks well in terms of a report card on where we are and where we want to be as a province and as a people here in Manitoba.

394 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l9 , 1994 I was very honoured, pleased and challenged last September to be appointed Minister of Health for the Province of Manitoba, Mr. Acting Speaker. It is a challenge for any minister right across this country, as any one of them will attest to very quickly. We are in a time in our history when we have to sta nd bac k and loo k and see whether our institutions are serving us well, and whether they will continue to serve us well into the next century. You see, Mr.

Acting Speaker, it is not good enough for us and our generation to have enjoyed the highest level of health spending in our history and to have enjoyed a high-quality health care system, but to leave nothing for our children. That is not right; it is not fair. It is not why we are here on this earth, to leave less behind us than we came to, so we should, all together, work together to make improvements to our health care system so that it can be sustained for many, many years to come, not only for my children and yours, but for theirs too.

So provinces right across the country are embarked on health care refonn plans. Just passed to me a moment ago, before I began my com ments , was a press clipping from Sa skatoon, Sa skatchewa n-! believe it is a Canadian Press wire service stor y-dated yesterday. It is from Saskatoon. It says: Staff cuts will increase elective surgery waiting lists at Sa skatoon hospitals, says the president of the provincial health board. We would anticipate some increases, John Malcolm said Monday. About 200 union and nonunion workers at the three hospitals lost their jobs in layoffs announced Friday.

This is in a small city compared to Winnipeg, the city of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. The

article goes on, Mr. Acting Speaker: Malcolm stressed the board will closely monitor waiting lists and make changes where necessary. Startin g in May, one hospital in the city will function every third Friday, as if it were a statutory holiday, with fewer workers. An Honourable Member: Where is that? Mr. McCr ae: Thi s is in Sa skatoon, Saskatchewan, our neighbours to the west. An Honourable Member: That is an NDP government. Mr. McCrae: Yes, that is right. That is an NDP government, in Saskatchewan, is it not? They have an NDP government in British Columbia as well. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I remember these things because I, from time to time , am asked by honourable members opposite to be mindful that changes and reductions at St. Boniface Hospital, for example, have an impact. I know they have an impact. They have an impact on jobs, and they have a potential impact on ca re. Although the research and the studies and the evaluation of the situation since those closures and changes has resulted in a report that patient care, and patients returning to hospital as a result of poor care, there is no difference before or after the changes at St. Boniface Hospital.

That is happening here in my province . I look at British Columbia, and I am reminded that their way of dealing with the crisis that we face in health care in this country is to close a major urban hospital called Shaughnessy Hospital in Vancouver. That was the response there. The response in Ontario bas been-I do not know if my running count is up to date. The last figures I had were that they had closed 3,500 beds in Ontario and thrown 14,000 hospital staff out of work. Mr. Acting Speaker, I do not say those things to be critical of those provinces.

I say those things to be critical of the kind of hypocrisy of honourable members opposite when they suggest that they somehow are critical of what we are doing here in Manitoba with a planned approach as laid out in the Quality Health for Manitobans: The Action Plan, which was put out by my predecessor in the spring of 19 92. The things we are doing are consistent with that plan, and that plan enjoys the una nim ous supp ort of ever yo ne who was consulted. That is, over 13,000 Manitobans have been involved in that co nsultation and implementation process.

Honourable members opposite would leave the impression that somehow that consultation is not happening when indeed it is.

April 19, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 395 Health refonn and change in recent months have also meant the announcement of a province-wide breast screening program, the announcement of our support for future midwifery programs, changes and improvements to our home care system, which, at Seven Oaks Hospital, includes a private company, We Care Home Health Services, which honourable members opposite were quick to attack before checking with the patients who are benefiting from that pilot project The patients who are served by the We Care Home Health Services in conjunction with Seven Oaks Hospital like the program and like the services that are being delivered.

Our friends opposite hate it, and that tells me a little bit about how tuned in honourable members opposite are. Mr. Acting Spe aker, we are into a lung transplant progr am. We are into enhanced psychiatric training for general practitioners in Manitoba. After many years of need, we have decided that we will have to do without the support of the federal government with respect to forensic facilities. Very recently I was able to announce in Selkirk the future long life of the Selkirk Mental Health Centre with the advent of a new forensic service delivery system operating out of that centre.

We have announced mental health service improvements in Thompson, in Flin Flon, in The Pas, in Eastman, in south and north Eastman, in the Interlake area. We have opened a self-help office in conjunction with three or four self-help groups in Brandon, Manitoba as well. Mr. Acting Speaker, just in case some people do not know where Brandon, Manitoba, is, Brandon, Manitoba, is about two and a half hours to the west of us and is Manitoba's second city.

In reference to the We Care Home Health Services, honourable members opposite refer to the Americanization of our health care system because we use the services of a firm that began in the city of Brandon. Because of support in the community for such services and need for those services, that company has grown into many, many franchises, and it has only done that by serving people well. That is why they have grown, and they have been used by the Seven Oaks Hospital contracted with on a pilot basis to improve service for people on an early discharge program. Mr.

Acting Speaker, health care reform is moving forward and is moving forward with the support of all kinds of health care providers and health care consumers. As honourable members opposite might be interested in knowing, they are helping us in many, many health care improve ment comm ittees and task forces that we have at work and assisting their fellow citizens and the government of Manitoba in the development of a quality health system for many, many years to come. •

(1430) Before I-I cannot see that. What does that say? [interjection] I am sorry, Mr. Acting Speaker. I was distracted just momentarily by a member of the Liberal caucus who is flogging lottery tickets. I do represent, and very proudly so, the people of Brandon West in this Legislature, and I have done so since 1986. It is not very often I have taken the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) to task, because for the most

part I feel he is trying to do his job and I am trying to do my job. But once in a while something happens to the honourable member for Brandon East, and he needs to have a few things brought to his attention. If Chatelaine magazine believes that Brandon is one of the 10 best cities in Canada, why can the honourable member for Brandon East not give the city of Brandon credit for something? Why does he always downgrade our community? What kind of advertisement does he want to put out for Brandon. Manitoba? Oh, do not come here anybody.

Any seed houses should not come to Brandon because we do not know how to sell seeds, even though Brandon's own McKenzie Seeds controls 70 percent of the seed market in this country. But if you ever entered into any kind of a partnership agreement for growth for McKenzie Seeds, the first thing they would do would be leave Brandon. Well, they never have yet, Mr. Speaker, and they control 70 percent of the markeL

396 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l9, 1994 I really thi nk the honourable member for Brandon East should re-examine his approach. He should ask his constituents if they think it is the right thing to do for him to take one of the most respected citizens of Brandon, in the person of Ray West, President and CEO of McKenzie Seeds, obviously a well-respected individual in the seed business and certainly in the business community in Brandon-a very highly respected person.

To take personal shots at the president and CEO of a company which he and his colleagues at McKenz ie Seeds have brought out of the doldrums, started making handsome profits, even paying back the government of Manitoba the money that McKenzie Seeds owes because of past misadventures in other times, all of these things have been happening with the help of the likes of Ray We st, and that is the person tha t the honourable member for Brandon East decides to single out for abuse. He clearly owes Ray West a very, very sincere apology. He owes everybody at McKenzie Seeds an apology, the whole community.

He owes the people of the city of Brandon and the people of Manitoba one great big apology for downgrading the city of Brandon in the way that he has. On the other hand, Brandon is too good a place for the jobs that GWE might bring to Brandon. They are going to bring a large number. The last count I heant it was growing. I do not know what it is going to grow to, but it is going to employ many Manitobans and Brandonites. The honourable member for Brandon East says, oh, the jobs are not good enough. Well, excuse me.

We have raised five children in Brandon, and any one of my children would have been very happy, had the opportunity arisen, to have been able to be employed with a company like that. There are many, many other Brandon people , young and old, who apprecia te the opportunity to be employed. It is not good enough, Mr. Acting Speaker, to talk jobs, jobs, jobs and then be against them every time jobs are created. Ayerst Organics is another example.

I am a Manitoba n, a western Manito ban and a Brandonite, and I am very pleased to see Ayerst Organics expanding its operations in Brandon, not only for the em ployme nt, the high qual it y employment that it can generate in my community, but also the generation of economic activity, employment, jobs all throughout Manitoba and beyond in the production of PMU to bring to Ayerst to make into pharmaceutical products for women around the world. I am proud of that development. But where is the honoura ble me mber for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) when his colleague the member for Radisson (Ms.

Cerilli) and her friends do everything they can to destroy that company? Where is the honourable member for Brandon East? Well, they used to call him bunker Len for short. Maybe there is somethirig to that. We wonder where he is when those issues come up. We have not heard him say anything exce pt, oh, I support Ayerst Organics. Does he say that to the face of the honourable member for Radisson? Does he say that in the caucus room of the New Democrats? What does he say there?

What does he say publicly in terms of repudiating the kind of behaviour of the honourable member for Radisson in her attempt to destroy industry in Manitoba? Deadly silent, Mr. Acting Speaker, and it is very, very distutbing. Then I referred in my earlier comments to We Care Home Setvices. This is a company that has been contracted by Seven Oa ks Hosp ital to provide early discha rge care for people being disch arged from Seven Oaks Hospital. The honourable members opposite in their opposition to all of this do a disservice to their fellow citizens.

They call into question the ability and even the wish of Seven Oaks Hospital to provide quality care to the people within their care. I mean, what kind of statements have honourable members opposite been making about Seven Oaks when they have been making those statements about We Care and the Ame ricanization of health care, so-called, by this Brandon firm in cahoots with Seven Oaks Hospital drumming up this plan to destroy health care in Manitoba.

April19, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSE:MBL Y OF MANITOBA 397 I do not accept any of that. The reason I do not accept it is because it is not founded in any facts. Another reason I do not accept it is that patient care is improving, not as honourable members opposite would have you believe, but then again, Mr. Acting Speaker, where is the honourable member for Brandon East when it comes to defending and promoting the growth of a firm that bad its beginning in Brandon and is working in a good economic climate created by this government and bas been able to build itself into a larger company?

How did it become a larger company? It became a larger company because the people value the services delivered by that company. Before we get all carried away with our socialist mindset, with our socialist blinkered dogma, let us look at what is right for the people bef ore we get so carried away in our opposition to quality improvements in care. All of this from an opposition that opposes each of our budgets, opposes each of our throne speeches every year. You can count on it, Mr. Acting Speaker. Why?

Because those budgets and throne speeches stand for taxes that stay down and not grow as they did in the yea rs of the New Democrats, a government that stands for and works for growth and a government that works for the creation of jobs at places like McKenzie Seeds, places like GWE, places like Ayerst Organics and all of the spinoff from that, places like We Care, places like Louisiana Pacific. Mr.

Acting Speaker, the Liberals ought not to be let off the book on this point becau se my colleagues in the Liberal Party, through their Health critic, the other day, jumped right into that little trap that somebody laid for the NDP, which the NDP were all ready to jump into anyway, but the Liberals jumped into it with them. That is that issue again of private versus public. You cannot for years on end criticize the public system, as honourable members opposite do, and then be critical also when the private sector is brought in as a partner in the delivery of health care.

Now, the private sector is brought in as a partner in this one particular pilot project. As I said earlier, I await with anticipation the evaluation. What are the Liberals going to say if that evaluation comes out very positive? What are they going to say then. ob, it is still wrong because it is ron by the private sector? *

(1440) Well, bow much do you want to be associated with the philosophy of the New Democrats, I ask my honourable Liberal friends opposite, because I am telling you, look at the direction the NDP philosophy is going, totally rejected most of the eastern world, the socialist dogma that we bear espoused from the benches opposite. I caution my friends in the Liberal Party, be careful about that. An Honourable Member: Just do not call me a socialist. Mr. McCrae: Well, you know what happens when you dance with the devil. Well, Mr. Acting Speaker, I did not mean that. I am sorry. I did not mean to say that.

I withdraw that last commenL An Honourable Member: I would think so. Mr. McCrae: Yes, I did not mean that. I am sony. Do not flirt with the socialists is my advice. I say that because the people will soundly reject the approaches of the New Democrats as they have done in the past. If you get too close to them, you will be soundly trounced as well. I thank honourable members for their attention. I welcome all new members to this House and loot forward to a positive working relationship. Thank you. Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Mr.

Actin� Speaker, it is truly an honour and privilege to rise to speak in the Cham ber today . I must first acknowledge the Speaker for the way be bas treated all newly elected MLAs. He has treated us with fairness, kindness and respect, and for this I - thank him. I also wish to acknowledge the Oerk and bis staff for their assistance in our first few months. L along with my new colleagues from the class of '93, had the opportunity to attend a series of what were called orientation sessions shortly after being elected. These sessions should have been called survival courses for newly elected MLAs. They

398 LEGISLATIVE ASSE:MBL Y OF MANITOBA Aprill9, 1994 are very useful, and I thank the Qerk, the staff and all the other people who were a participant in those sessions. An acknowledgement of the Pages is in order. I have already been impressed by these young individuals. When there is so much publicity when a young person is involved in youth crime or violence, it is a shame that the media have not taken notice of our Pages and done a story on them as examples of some of the best and brightest young people in our province.

In this adversarial environment of partisan party politics, I must comment on my colleagues in this Assembly. Members from all three parties have given me useful advice and encouragement since I entered this building. Since being elected I have worked with a member from the NDP caucus, the member for Kildonan (Mr. Cbomiak), on establishing youth drop-in centres in our constituency. I should note that the member for Kildonan and I first met when we took catechism classes together at Holy Eucharist Church in East Kildonan. There we went on to high school together at Miles Mac collegiate.

We shared many of the same acquaintances and experiences growing up together. He went to become a lawyer, and I went to become a cop. I do not know where he went wrong. The Justice minister has encouraged me to come to her office to obtain information that will be helpful to my constituents and fellow Manitobans. Without trying to score points by making a hit on the government to warrant the 20 seconds of fame on the six o'clock news, unless the latter is my true purpose, I am willing to try to work co-operatively with the minister if it achieves what is best for my constituents and better serves all Manitobans.

Mr. Acting Speaker, although all MLAs whom I have dealt with have treated me well, the Liberal MLAs who make up our caucus have helped and supported me to an extent far beyond what I could have expected. After working the field of law enforcement for 20 years enforcing laws it is very strange for me to leave that environment and join the caucus to learn a new role as a politician making laws. The caucus has been very patient while I learn more about the process and bow this place functions.

I will reward their assistance, support and patience by becoming a contributing member to this process with the unique perspective that my background can bring to this Assembly. I would be remiss if I did not pay tribute to the value, leadership and inspiration provided by my Leader. His achievements have, and will continue to have, a profound impact on the political future of Manitoba and this country. As Manitobans get to know our Leader better they will find, as I have, that to know him is to like and respect him.

The more Manitobans get to know our Leader, the surer they will be that be is the person to lead this province after the next election. The member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) has a difficult task. Many of the sergeants who have supervised me in the past can attest to that. I am opinionated, strong-willed, assertive, and I have a tendency to contribute more than my share to any discussion. As the rest of the caucus has done, he bas been patient, supportive and helpful. What I have appreciated the most from my Leader is the concern that be has shown for me personally and for the welfare of my family.

As MLAs we should not forget our caucus staff and our constituency assistants. In all three political parties the staff has shown their political bosses a great deal of loyalty and effort above and beyond the call of duty. They often do this with the realization that there is little job security working for an elected official. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) I would like to take this opportunity as well to thank my family for their support and energy helping me to take on this important task.

For 20 years my family had to put up with shift work, midnight shifts, ove rtime and other dubious benefits of having a police officer in the family. Now they have to put up with the never-ending seven-day-a-week

schedule of an MLA, listening to public criticism of their husband and father and dealing with people who think our family is rich, when in fact they have to suffer the effects of

Apri119, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 399 reduced family income as a result of me assuming the position of MLA. I know all my colleagues in this House can appreciate what I am saying and know there are no words that can truly expr ess the appreciation we have for our families.

A special mention is warranted for all those who participated in the past election, starting from those who went on to vote, the hundreds of volunteers who took a more active role in the political process by working for the candidate of their choice, to the candidates who put their names on the ballot This is the type of participation that is nee ded in order for de moc racy to wo rk eff ectively . I would also like to thank all those volunteers who put their time and effort in the past election to help me. It was and is a bumbling experience to have so many people work so bard on my behalf.

At this time I would like to express my sincere thanks to the people of The Maples for putting their trust in me to serve their interests in this Assembly. For the duration of this government I wi ll be working hard to earn the trust and confidence of all Maples residents, for in the election I was knocking on a lot of doors, in fact, every door in The Maples at least once, and I have the worn shoes to prove it. Many constituents mentioned to me that it was important that the MLAs are not only around during elections but they are also around between electio ns.

I have opened a constituency office in a central and accessible location in the centre of The Maples. Not only does this constituency office serve the important function of providing my constituents with easy access to me, their elected representati ve, but last night when a fire wiped out an apartment block nearby, it also served as emergency shelter for those left homel ess. It was gratifying to me to be able to help these people who bad suffered such a tragedy. I have been and will continue to be there to help all the residents of The Maples.

It is with great pleasure that I am here , elected by my constituents of The Maples to represent them in the daily deliberations of this Assembly . To each and every resident of The Maples as their elected representative 1 vow to serve them wilh fairness, with honour and with integrity. The Maples is a wondeiful constituency.lt is an example of the multicultural mosaic that makes Manitoba such a great place to live. Many of my constituents are newcomers to Canada and to Manitoba and have not yet obtained their Canadian citizenship.

The present community of The Maple s reminds me of the way the area of the city known as the north end used to be. The old north end had a strong ethnic work ethic supplied from the influx of immigrants. The nationality of those immigrants depended upon what period of Manitoba bistOtY we are talking about for The north end bas been the landing point of immigrants of different national origins for decades. The strong work ethic and emphasis on family and the importance of a good educa tion has resulted in some of Winnipeg's most successful people coming from the north end.

Included in the list is our First Minister (Mr. Filmon), our fe deral ca binet minister , Lloyd Axwortby, and international recording artist, Burton Cmnmings. At one time, 12oftbe 18 provincial courtjudges iu the city could claim the honour of growing up in the north end. Our Speake!' is indicating be was also from the north end. What is intere sting, out of those 12 provincial court judges, only two of them still remain living in the north end.

Just as the old north end had a strong work ethic and other positive values that were reinforced by the culture of many of the immigrants who came to live there, so does The Maples. Just as the north end has supplied many of Ma nitoba's judges, politicians, enter tainers, athletes and other successful people, so will The Maples. The Maples is a suburban neighbourhood of hard-working people. The area is represented by City Councillor Mike O' Shaughnessy at the municipal level, myself at the provincial level ancl Dr.

Rey Pagtakhan at the fe deral leveL These representatives are not only political coUeagues, but I also consider them friends. We are working together to give the residents of The Maples the

400 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l9, 1994 repr esentation they deserve at all levels of government . There are five elemen tary schools in The Maples: Arthur E Wright, Constable Finney , Elwick, James Nisbit and O.V. Jewitt School. 1bere is one middle school, Ecole Leila North, and one junior high, Ken Se aford . The Maples Collegiate is the high school that services the area. •

(1450) The Maples bas a thriving business community. I am actively encouraging the residents of The Maples to do business with the merchants located in The Maples for their mutual benefit. (Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) Recreational facilitie s in The Maples include many parks and green space s, a major City of Winnipeg swimming pool, and thanks to a core of long-time volunteers, The Maples has a wonderful community centre and multiplex. With the St.

Joseph 's nursing home, the Maples Personal Care Home and Seven Oaks Hospital all being in The Mapl es, health care is always an important issue in my constituency. Shortly after my election, I was able to facilitate the creation of a combined Citizens for Crime Awareness and community police office in our neighbourhood. During this week, which bas been designated as a volunteer week, it is important to note that the community police CFCA office could not have been opened without recruiting the support of over 80 volunteers .

Within two weeks of recruiting, this office had to start a waiting list of people willing to volunteer. There is also a waiting list of The Maples residents who would like to be members of the youth justice committee I started two years ago. An example of the community spirit and the spirit of volunteerism that exists in my community is the fire that occurred last night where 18 people lost their homes. I would like to express my deepest sympathy for those people who suffered from the fire, but we are grate ful that nobody was hurt.

Shortly after the community heard of the fire , the volunteers from the community police office rushed down to the office to keep it open and to help the police and the victims. Communi ty members off ered their homes , food and supplies and moral support for the victims. The manager of the neighbourhood IGA provided diapers, food and other emergency supplies to the victims. The Maples is a caring community where the volunteer spirit is strong and where people help each other. I say again, I am honoured to represent such a fine community . Mr.

Acting Speaker, I would now like to share with the House some of my personal background. I was born and raised in Winnipeg. I am the second generation to be born in Canada, my grandparents coming from Poland and the Ukraine . My parents , Tony and Olga Kowalski, instilled in me the values of a strong work ethic and a sense of duty to help others. I am currently on leave of absence from my job as a police officer. The me mber for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg) in his inaugural speech talked about the members of this House who he had dealt with professionally as a teacher.

As a police officer, I think I will avoid talking about any members that I may have dealt with in my former occupation. Prior to my career in law enfor cement, I had a number of jobs. Some of the more interesting jobs I worked at was as an underground miner, a taxi driver, a private security consultant. I have tried flying and skydiving. I only had one close call during the 20 years I worked as a police officer when a bullet went between my legs and hit a burglary suspect I was wrestling with. My volunteer activities followed my daughter's development.

When Tanya attended Maples Day Care , I started volunteering there and became a member of the board of directors. When she started O.V. Jewitt School, I joined the parent committee there and served in a number of positions. I later became involved in the school division's parent education committee . I also started volunteering on the north Winnipe g youth justice committee when I was appointed as an honorary probation officer by the Attorney General at the time , the honourable member for Br andon West (Mr. McCrae). I later started The Maple s youth justice committee. These volunteer activities led to people

April l9 , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 401 in the community to encourage me to run for school trustee in the Seven Oaks School Division in the 1992 election. I now view my present position as an MLA as a continuation of my volunteer activity, but now I am able to devote all my time to service to the community. Before I make comment on the throne speech, I would like to make a few comments about a subject that the member for Osborne (Ms. McCormick) mentioned in her inaugural speech, that is decorum and heckl ing that is a practice in this House.

In preparation for this address today, I obtained copies of some inaugural speeches made by my colleagues. In one of those speeches are some comments made by a new member of this House that apply just as well today as it did then. Please allow me to read the comment: Dem ocracy has travelled many miles from the early tribal caucus, but the essence of their meeting is with us today. One person speaks , and the others listen. It is my wish that during this session, we maintain a decorum that would befit the great orators of history.

Certainly, good repartee and sophisticated wit are admiral , but pettine ss, character malignrnent is a lesser man's fonn of rhe toric. It is my wish that we pledge our heads to clearer thinking, our hearts to greater loyalty, our hands to larger service and our health to better living as we serve as legislators. It is my wish that the government accepts our cause when given and also accepts constructive criticism. Those are the words of the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray) during her inaugural speech, the member for Broadway on August 2, 1988. I do not heckle, and I do not plan to heckle.

Members should not interpret this as a sign of weakness but a strength. As I said earlier, I have jumped out of airplane s, chased armed suspects, gone 1,500 fe et underground in mines where men had died the day bef ore , but because I am strong enough to rej ect a parliamentary tradition that does not serve the public interest, I will endeavour not to heckle another member in this House.

This point was driven horne when I noticed a group of school children sitting in the gallery watching the proceedings, wa tching the yelling and the interrupting, the lack of respect shown other people, and I thought that they were not very good role models to these young people . I believe that it is incumbent upon us to be leaders in every sense of the word, to show respect and tolerance and maintain the decorum of the House. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I now want to speak brie fly about my reaction to those areas in the Speech from the Throne which are of particular interest to me in the context of my personal professional experie nce and of the critic areas for which I have assumed responsibility for the Liberal caucus. The throne speech states: "Manitobans place a high value on the safety and security of their homes and famil ies ." As a person who has dedicated his working life to the prote ction of life and property in the city, I could not agree more.

What I disagree wi th is the met hods the government has chosen to achieve this and the tone of the governm ent's message. My experience wida youth crime and violence comes from being on the street where crime and violence occur, witnessing the failures of laws and govermn ent policies an4 knowing that the police is the central component of what maintains law and orde r and prevents anarchy. For ye ars I have shared the frustration of enforcing laws and policies that did not work.

For four years I worked as a community police officer in the area with the highest crime rate in this city.! often worked alone, going into homes, schools, hotels, the likes of which members of this Assembly could not even imagine. I have lived and worked with persons who make up the statistics that are causing the concern. The most irnportara point I want to make is that youth crime and violence is not the proble m. It is a symptom of the proble m, just as increased youth suicide rate , increased youth unemployment rate and increased child poverty rate are symptoms of the problem.

The problem is a troubled society that is losing its ability and, some would argue, its will to look after its youth.

402 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri119, 1994 The youth summit held by the government on December 10, 1993 was a very positive first step in dealing with the problem of youth crime and violence. The government should be applauded for this co ns ul tatio n . The problem with the consultation was that the message received was filtered through a right-wing philosophy that did not reflect what I heard as one of the participants at the summit. There were 700 recommen dations that came from that summit.

Depending on what message you want to convey, you could pick any nine points to make up an action plan that fits your philosophy. So I wish the government would stop saying, we have listened to Manitobans. They have listened to Manitobans they agree with and have turned a deaf ear to those they do not. No wonder the public is losing its respect for the government 's brand of public consultation. The Liberal caucus was dissatisfied with an aspect of the summit on youth crime and violence held by the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) in December last year.

Although useful infonnation was imparted at this forum, we fe lt there was an inadequate repr esentation of young people. My experience as an honor ary probation officer working with yout h has taught me that the contribution and conversation that young people have about this issue is different when adults dominate in numb ers or in fluence in the discussion. The Liberal caucus believes that it is incumbent upon politicians to consult with those who are most affected by political decisions, particula rly when those persons typically are excluded from the political process .

This was the reason we held a workshop at the Legislature on Saturday, April 9, 1994, called Listening to Youth. We fe lt it important to provide a forum exclusively for youth so that young people would get a genuine opportunity to speak and be beard. The only participation from the organizer of the forum was to divide participants into groups of six or seven individuals and identify three major topics for discussion. From there it was up to the participants to undertake discussions about their own experien ces, opinions and ide as. •

(1500) Nearly 70 young people from Winnipe g and around the province participated in the event. Individuals attending were from a wide variety of cultural and socioeconomic backgrounds, ensuring that a broad cross

section of opinion was repre sented. In attendance were people from a variety of Winnipeg ne ighbourhoods and rural comm unitie s, as well as repr esentatives from Manitoba reserv es. We were fortunate also to have young offenders and members of youth gangs present. The result of this mix was the ex pression of a variety of opinions on a number of issues relating to youth crime and violen ce. Not only were the young people able to expre ss their opinions to a member of the Legislative Assembly, they were also able to learn from the experience of peers from communities and backgrounds other than their own.

The first topic of discussion was the cause of youth crime and violence. The predominant theme that emerged in the discussion, the cause of youth crime and violen ce, was the environment and the circumstance s in which young people exist. The first point that these young people brought forward was a lack of connection and relationship with the adults in their lives. Many of the young people talked about being raised in families where either both parents worked or their single parent worked. As a re sult, many youths talked about coming borne after school to a television set.

When their parents were home with them, they were tired and stressed out. As a result, there was not a strong influence from the parents. The other thing that came out from many of the young people was a lack of hope. A lack of optimism and a lack of opportunity were also mentioned as possible causes of youth crime and violence. The poor economy and the expectation of future joblessness gave many of the young people an attitude that there was no benefit to be good and to work bard. The impediment of a criminal rec ord in obtaining a job does not matter if there is no ex pectation of ever having a job.

Some of them talked about older brothers and sisters who had completed their education and bad

April l9, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 403 been looking for work for two or three years. They talked about parents who could not find jobs, so how can we ex pect these young people to look to the future when everyone around them has no future. They also mention ed a sense of lack of belonging. Some of the most poignant thoughts raised during the discussions at this forum relate to the place of youth in today 's society . In discussing causes of youth crime and violence, the ominous impression emerged that many participants simply fe lt that young people were not valued in our society .

A lack of unde rstanding of the youth of today on the part of those in positions of authority was mentioned as a possible cause of youth crime and violence. The problem is reinforced when there are difficulties in the family setting leaving young people without necessary supports and guidance. These ideas suggested that young people fe el that their concerns are not being listened to by those in positions of power. Pover ty is perhaps the mo st fre quently mentioned cause of youth crime and violence .

Participants from less affluent communities were particul arly likely to cite this as a source of criminal violence and behaviour. It was interesting that we had a mix of kids from different areas of town, and ove r the fo ur -hour session the understanding of each others ' reality of where they lived changed. Many young people who came there with the impression that nothing happened to young offenders when they get arre sted were challenged by kids from the core area, by kids who were in gangs or had been involved with the youth justice system.

They asked if they know what really happens when you get arrested, and it quickly became evident that they did not. Over the years, I have driven a number of young people to the Youth Centre and it did not matter if it was their first time or it was their fifth time, believe me, they were not happy to be going there. I saw many tears from some pretty tough people, but those same people who were crying on their way to the Youth Centre, when I saw them out in the community a couple of days later, they were bragging to their friends that nothing happened to them when they got arre sted. It was a macho thing.

So the perception is there that nothing happens to young offenders. A young offender who bas to do every Saturday morning community service work, he complains. he hates it, he does not want to do it again, but when he talks to his friends, he says, nothing happened to me when I got arre sted. All I had to do wa s some comm unity service work. The perception that nothing happens to yo ung offenders I think is inaccurate at best. The recession was noted as a cause by a number of participants. The brutal economic recession of recent years has resulted in an increase in unemployment and poverty rates.

The se factors serve to increase the sense of despair in young people. The recession resulted in parents working longer hours at lower-paying jobs and having less to give to their children in tenus of material things and more importantly in terms of time and attention. This point was very strongly emphasized by these young people at the workshop-media portrayal of youth crime and violence. They said that it contributes to the impression about the involvement of young people and crime.

Many of the participants in discussions stated that they felt that the portrayal of young people in the media was damaging and did not give a balanced impression of young people. I ref erred earlier to our Pages as examples of some of the best and brightest of the young Manitobans we have in this province, and the figures bandied about, either 5 percent , 8 percent or 10 percent of our youth are involved in the youth justice system.

That means at least 90 percent of our youth are not involved in the youth jus tice system , yet the media is giving the perception that we have our youth out of control. and this was mentioned by the young people. Another possible cause related to the media was a proliferation of violence in all fonns of popular culture. The extreme levels of violence present in America and to a lesser extent Canadian-produced films, television and music contribute to criminal

404 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1994 behaviour by creating role models based on violence and criminality. The cycle of violence was cited as a factor leading to violence and criminal behaviour. There is little doubt that this is closely related to poverty. Growing up in an environment of deprivation and violence with a lack of guidance and support from parents and peers often will result in criminal and violent behaviour. Children who have suffered abuse are more likely to pa rtake in violence and crime.

Observations of young people who had suffered abuse and/or had been raised in poverty confirm what we should by now know to be common knowl edge, that ther e is an undeniable link between the circumstances in which children are raised and their involvem en t in criminal behaviour. They also talked about group associations. They also talked about cuts to educational funding as a cause to problems of youth crime and violence.

Participants noted that with opportunities for people entering into the workforce seeming to be mo re limited now than ever before , it was particularly unfair that funding for education be cut now. This serves only to fuel the sense of hopelessness among young people. Some participants noted that there was an increase in the sizes of classes resulting in teachers being less able to devote attention to individuals. It relates back to what I said earlier about youth having a lack of adult relationships in their lives. This is yet another example of needed supports being taken away from young people.

It was also noted that the budget constraints had resulted in curtailment of extracurricular activities. This is part of a larger problem cited by young people, that there simply is not enough for young people to do. Problems such as this, like many others, are more acute in poorer communities where families have less resources to compensate when public funding of activities for young people fall short. • (15 10) The young people then talked about prevention of youth crime and violence. Many of the ideas for prevention of youth crime and violence are, as might be expected, corollaries of the causes.

This common-sense approach may seem obvious but often is not employed when addressing the problems of youth crime and violence. The first one they mention is involvement of young people in preventative strategies. They mention everything from peer mentors to consultation with the courts, with the police and other aspects of the criminal justice system, that they have more input into what happens to young people, because to use our experiences from when we were young does not apply today in this rapidly changing society. It talked about better support services being available through schools and communities.

It talked about media awareness classes for young people so that the young people know that Teenage Ninja Turtle is not real life and so they know that Rambo is not a real person. Another thing they mentioned was encouraging youth involvement in communities. They stated it might go a long way to address a problem of lack of sense of belonging for young people as they become more connected to adults and their community in general. The third task they talked about was the consequences of youth crime and violence . A number of useful suggestions were posed in this portion of the discussion.

Again, a wide range of opinions were expressed. However, consensus did emerge on the direction of consequences for young offenders. Harsh punitive me asures were not viewed as a solution to the problem of youth crime and violence. Because of the dynamics of the family relationship and other circumstances identified as possible causes for youth crime and violence, a ha rsh disciplin ary appro ach was thought to possibly reinforce a problem rather than contribute to the solution. One of the consequences was shortening the time required to deal with young offenders in the justice system. One of the young

April 19, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 405 participants said, I do not think five years into the future, I do not think five months into the future, I do not think five weeks into the future. He said, if I am going to have a consequence it has to be immediate if it is going to have any impact. We have to re-evaluate our resources and see if there is a way we could give a more speedy response to young people who do get involved in youth crime and violence. Again, the young people as a pos sible consequence-with sponsors or mentors for young people who have been involved in crime .

Again, they said beca use they are la cking adult relationships, whether it is from their parents, from their teachers , they need it. They said whether that is from a volun teer, whether it is from an organization, they are looking for adults to show concern and have a relationship with in their lives. They also talked about peer justice committees comprising young people, including former young offenders, might be an eff ective way to reach young offenders and young people at risk of becoming involved in violence and crime.

The insight of young people into the motivation and behaviour of their peers should be tapped. He aling circles were also proposed as an option for aboriginal youth. Healing circles help to address fe elings of alienation among aboriginal youth by bringing them into contact with their culture and fe eling a sense of pride and belonging. We should note that 70 percent of the youth involved in the youth justice system are aboriginal, so we have to look at some traditional aboriginal solutions for the problem. Mr.

Acting Speaker, they mention counselling for entire families, recommend as an eff ective way of dealing with young offe nders. Remember, these recomm endations, these thoughts are coming from youth as young as 13 and as old as 18. I think you have to compliment how insightful they were. When they talked about counselling for entire families, once again participants in their discussion groups confirmed the ef fe cts of dysfunctional families, cir cumst ance s that are so well documented by experts.

We were told by young people that there wa.OJ a need to offer treatment to the entire family unit since it was the way in which this family unit functioned that was at the root of the behaviour of young offenders. This gives credence to the notion that a system of harsh discipline is not the answer to the problem of youth crime and violence. Such reactionary measures clearly do not address the fundamental causes of this type of behaviour. This becomes all the more apparent when young people tell us that treating the family as a whole is necessary to prevent repeat young offenders. Mr.

Acting Spe aker , community service was also suggested as a consequence for young offende rs. Such a system might instill a sense of belonging and pride in the community of young people. Of course, there is a system right now of community service but these were the suggestioos of the young people, not mine. It is beca use I care about all of society and because I care about law and orde r, I know we must do what will be ef fe ctive to solve this problem instead of what is popular, or more of us will fall victim to crime and violence commi tted by young people, the young people we have not helped. (Mr.

Speaker in the Cbair) Mr. Speaker, I have listened at the youth summit and I have listened to a public dialogue on this subject. What I am hearing is that the citizens of Manitoba want to be safe and want their property to be safe. If this government takes a number of harsh punitive measures to solve the problem and the rate of violence and crime continues, they wiD not have delivered what the public truly want. When a lynch mob is angry and wants to hang the thief without benefit of due proce ss, it would be easy to step to the front of them all and chea" them on and call it leadership.

True leadership is the individual who calls for a reasoned response that will offer eff ective, long-term resolutions to the problem. Mr. Speaker, this is the first throne speech that I have had an opportunity to comment on. Although there were other statements in the throne speech

406 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l9 , 1994 that I wish to comment on, including judicial accountability, the recommenda tions of the Aboriginal Just ice Inquiry, Education and Training, and issues relating to the handling of the court Ojibway tribal council policing issue, but I am running out of time. I know I will have the opportunity to debate these issues and questions with the government in the near future. In

summary, my comments in general about the throne speech are tainted with the cynicism that the public has about government in general and politicians in general. I have reviewed the throne speeches of this government in the past, and their promises and predictions for the future, and use them as an indicator of how accu rate the promises and predictions of the throne speech are. For example, on October 11, 1990, the throne speech stated: it remains committed to the vision it set forth when it first took office, a strong economic economy and better jobs for our young people.

Do young people feel the economy is strong now and they have more opportunities now? No. The government said, they will protect vital health, education and family services in an era of limited resources . If we ask Manitobans, do they feel vital health, education and family services have been protected? We will invest in our education system to make it more responsive to challenges of our children. Since 1990, have they invested or have we seen cutbacks in education? Regiona l and sec torial strate gy, the key component of that strategy must be a strength of work relationship with Manitoba's native people.

Do Manit oba 's native people feel that this government has worked with them? You know, often a battle of statistics develops when issues of the economy, jobs and reductions of budgets and services in government are talked about. The public are not influenced by the statistics. Manitobans are witness to friends, family and neighbours, unable to find a job, who have less money in their pocket when all the taxes are taken into account Manitobans have sons and daughters that are unable to find work in this province, who are being forced to move away .

People receiving government services, such as social assistance or home care or Handi-Transit, tell them that the quality of life has not improved. Gover nment announcements, sta tistics , percentages, increases in total budget do not change Manitoba's understandings that they are worse off now than six years ago when this government took power. They know it. They can see it in their daily lives. One of the life experiences that I bring to this House is buying a used car.

If I bought a used car from a salesperson who made promises about the future performance of the car once and did not deliver, it would be difficult for him or her to convince me to believe any promise about the next car sold to me. In an American election years ago, the question was asked, would you buy a used car from this man when referring to one of the candidates? The first five throne speeches of this government have been lemons and failed to live up to their promises, so I believe the promises and predictions of this throne speech will once more fail to be realized, and we have another lemon on our hands.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I am glad to rise today to speak on the government's proposals in the Speech from the Throne. But it is traditional courtesy first to welcome the new Pages, the interns, the translators and the staff of Hansard and to thank them for the work they ·do to ensure the smooth operations of this Legislature. •

(1520) It is also traditional to welcome you, Mr. Speaker, in your continuing role as the Speaker of this House, and on this occasion I do so with more than a mere genuflection to tradition or to legislative rhetoric. This governmen t now is a ca retaker government, and it has no majority. We have already seen the stark reality of this in emergency debates and in the voting on the amendment offered by the Liberals on the throne speech.

Apri1 19, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 407 You are in the difficult position of maintaining the neutrality that has won you the respect of the members of this House, of discerning a responsible role of the Speaker in this position, and not least following the dictates of your own conscience in the proceedings of this House. Moreover, as we approach the time of an election, the temper of the House will become more heated, and your sense of humour and your sense of fair play may be more sorely tested than before. May I take this opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to offer you my best wishes for this session.

I would also like to welcome the new members to the Hou se: the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowa lski ), the member for Osb orne (Ms. McCormick), and particularly the member for St Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), and the new member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg), both of whom I have taught and both of whom I am delighted and honoured now to have as colleagues. This government has chosen not to meet this House for eight months-surely the longest gap in recent memor y.

It is an in dication of the discomf ort it experiences with any form of cri ticism or any indication that there are other diagnoses of the problems facing Manitoba or other solutions than those proposed by the chambers of commerce or the confederation of independent businesses. Although the member for Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon), the Premier of this province, occasionally claims that he welcomes advice, that he looks for constructive criti cism, his actions belie this.

A Prem ier who welcomed deba te, who was convinced that his policies were leading us in the right dir ection, would have called together the political forum of this province before eight months had passed. Those eight months, in fact, tell us that this is a Premier who is reluctant to face opposition and who is unwilling to face the people in Question Period.

Now that we have heard the throne speech and watched with amusement the prepared petty little tirades that come with it, it is clear that his reluctance to face the Legislature was based more fundamentally on the fact that this is a government at the end of its tenure. There are no new poli cy ideas, no new approaches, and no indication of a recognition the overwhelming difficulties that Manitobans are facing. This was a government which came to power six years ago with one big idea, to expand the role of the private sector and to diminish the place of government in our province.

When historians look back on this period, they will reflect upon that as the hallmark of the Filmon Tories, a governmem which took public community resources and investment and transferred them into pri vate hands. As opposition we have had many opportuniti es to evaluate these government policies in health care, education, natural resources, housing. telecommunications, transportation. Their policy has been to cut the budgets and staff of the public instituti ons and to fund, in increasing amounts, the for-profit private institutiom. Nowhere is this more clear than in education.

The government has continued its path of increasing the funding to private schools. Let us call them private schools, although the government and the schools thems elves prefer to calt themselves independent. They are clearly not independent so long as they are taking public money. They answer to their own boards, not to the public of Manitoba, in spite of the fact that the largest part of their funding is provided by the public taxpayer. They can be selective in the pupils they admit, screening-in many but not all cases-- the high-risk and high-cost students.

Their curriculum and the trained teachers they use are also provided by the taxpayer of Manitoba. Fmally there is no restriction on the amount of money they can raise to add to public funds for the education of their selected student body. Mr. Speaker, this is not to argue against the existence of private schools. Some are excellent. There is the same ratio of dedicated teachers anc1 lively children as in the public schools, one must assume , but the first responsibility of any community is to the public schools which provide for all.

It is the clear, unequal treatment and the use of government power and public money to

408 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l9, 1994 diminish the public and enhance the private that is not the Manitoba way. Mr. Speaker, let us compare this with the experience of the public schools under this government . The public school is the crucible of our society. It is where all are equal, no matter which home a student comes from. Within the school district the children of the doctor, the teacher, the manual worlcer, the new immigrant or the First Nations children find themselves equal. All are admitted, no matter what their income , their ec onomic prospects or their physical capabilities.

If their poverty has meant poor nutrition and delayed growth, the public school will help them to close that gap. If they have suffered at the hands of neglectful parents, the public school will try to find them the help they need. If their physical needs are special, the public school will train teachers to help them. It will develop curriculum that is suitable for the m. It will provide the medical and social assistance that they need. It will do its utmost to ensure there is a place in the classroom for every child.

When parents are concerned about their childr en's progress, the public school is accou ntable thr ough the principal, the superintendent and an elected public body, the school trustees It is not a perf ect system, Mr. Speaker. No educational system achieves such a nirvana and especially not one which has so many needs to meet and so many expectations to fulfill, but it has in our province thousands of dedicated teachers who devote their energies to the children in their care.

It will be unfair to single out people by name , but anyone who bas anything to do with high school athletics programs knows of the extra hours logged by teachers in practices, tournaments, training on weekends and in the early morning or into the evening. It is these same teachers who will spend their evenings and summers in university courses to enhance their professional development or, like my own son 's ma th teacher, ma ke themselves available every single morning at eight o'c lock and every lunch hour for the extra assistance students nee d.

There are similar stories to be told in all our schools, in music programs, in theatre , in art, in languages and, increasingly , in computer-based studie s. But how has this hard-pressed system been treated by this government of the one simple idea? School boards have been bypassed, elective officials discounted. Without negotiation teachers ' salaries have been cut. School boards were advised by this government, which trumpets loudly its devotion to training, to eliminate professional development days of teachers in Manitoba.

The government has system atically cut the funding to public schools and this year there bas been a further cut of 2.5 percent. School boards have been advised to use their reserve funds, ref erred to as surpluses by this minister. Thus the fisca lly prudent school boards who have put mo ney aside for bu ilding and renewal for emergencies or other long-term plans will be penalized for their prudence. It hardly encourages boards to indulge in long-range planning in the future. Manitoba education will run on the short-tenn plan from here . In addition, Mr.

Spe aker, the government prohibited local school boards from increasing their taxes beyond a certain limit to make up any prospective shortfall. This unprecedented use of the central power of the provincial government is deeply resented by local boards. Those boards have been prevented in essence from exercising their ability to represent their voters. They do not even have the option of asking their voters how they choose to deal with the fmancial strictures placed upon them by the provincial government.

The government bas in effect limited one of the most important elements of our public school system , its accountability to its local electors . On the one hand, we have priv ate schools receiving more and public schools receiving less. The pri vat e school, na rrow in ba se and exclusionary , is yet able to tax its supporters in an unlimited way. The public school, open and diverse, has been limited in its ability to be accountable to its citizens.

Apri1 19, 1994 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 409 The inequality and the tre atment of the two systems has been systematic over the last six years . It is no accident. This is a government of ideology. Their goal has been to reduce the areas of society which remain in the public domain. Their goal has been to limit the scope of government and increase the number of public decisions which are made private ly. This does not necess arily make Manitoba a better place for all our citizens.

It has certainly increased the power of some, those who are in an economic position to make the many private decisions, but it has diminished the power of many. The greatest irony, if irony is the right word, is that it has accomplished all of this with public money. Mr. Speaker, the transition from a public Manitoba to a private society will be the hallmark of the FJlmon government, but its legacy to Manitobans will be one of an incre asingly fragmented society. There are other examples that would be familiar to Manitobans by now, in community colleges, for example .

Two years ago the government created governing boards and set the colleges at arm's length from government policy, but in appointing those boards it created not the partnership between private and public sectors that one might have expected, but in insisting upon marke t-driven training it handed the dominant power of our public institutions to the private sector. Mr. Speaker, the minister says from time to time that we oppose market-driven training, and this is not the case; I have discussed this with the last minister in Estimates.

But, if by market training we mean training which is demanded immediately and currently by local companies, then we must argue that it is not the only form of education. There is a place for market-driven training, but it is not the only pathway on the educational road ahead. Market-driv en training does not take account, for example, of the generic skills required in basic education by all the community, nor is it easy for market-driven training in fact to respond to the changing needs or to even innovation in the economy and educational needs of Manitoba. • (1 530) Mr.

Speaker, under this government, colleges were also directed to find their monies in the private sector. They were directed to create courses demanded by industry, not to direct their energies to the education and tiaining needs of the young or unemployed Manitobans. Even before the colleges became part of the private Manitoba, many of their basic introductory levels were eliminated to open up opportunities for the newly emer ging priv ate colleges in the province.

The consequences for Manitobans have been that the waiting lists at Red River College, for example, have grown, and it is not unusual now to wait one or two years to enter a training program. Small wonder then that the private colleges are growing. Th!IS, what the government has done is to use the publi c purse and public authority to decrease opportunities for many at community colleges . In the process they have created a steady supply of students to private colleges and through student loans, often administered by the private colleges, have given private educators a secure financial base.

Priv ate mru:kets in education, of course, have long been in existence in North America, but what we have seen in Manitoba under the Film on Tories is a del iberate and systematic use of state power to move the balance of that market in favour of the private entrepreneurial approach to education. Public institutions have been narr owed and limited by government policy .

Private institutions whose major allegiance is to their profit line-it is not their role to consider the long-term needs of the Manitoba population, nor under this government is it the role of the market-dri ven community college, nor, according to the last Education minister when I raised this with her in the examination for Estim ates, is it any longer the role of the government. Stand aside, and let the market decide. This was the one lonely big idea of this government when it came to power six years ago, and they have do gged ly applied it to post-secondary education. Mr.

Speaker, since 1990, they have cut $1 0 million from the community colleges. They eliminated student bursari es. They cut ACCESS

410 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1994 programs. They cut or eliminated the New Careers and other community-based education programs for adults. In addition, they transferred the cost of fu rther education to the individual from the community through student loans, and they created a market for the private colleges at the entry level. From the perspective of the private colleges, these are the cheapest and easiest courses to put on. Few labs are needed, little expensive equipment is required and there are very few regulations or inspections. Again, Mr.

Speaker, this is not to say that there are not good teachers in the private college system or that sound learning is not occurring, but it is to say that in vocational areas where there is no external certificate or examining body, we simply do not know what kind of education is taking place and wheth e r en rolle d students are be ing appropriately served. It is a case of the buyer beware, as the minister said in essence when I raised the question with her last year, and is that how Ma nitobans want their post- sec ond ary education to be expanded? The impact on students, Mr.

Speaker, is that with a Grade 8 or Grade 9 education these students find no place at the community college. They have none of the opportunities of the late lamented Core Area Agreement which provided education, and with the virtual elimination of community-based education by this government, they find that they have nowhere else to go but a private training school. Here they find themselves in a commercial a

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-9
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 9.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
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