Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-sEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Sessioo VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, MAY 4, 1976 Number 56 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER

May 4, 1976 The House met at 2:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the.Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 2405 PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Han. Minister of Fisheries. PK - 1 RON. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I have the hongur to present a petition signed by,I think, all of the residents of Branch and Point Lance that general area, the prayer of which calls upon the government to complete the North Harbour-Branch road. This, Mr. Speaker, is a very important link,a· part of which is already completed, and a part of which will be completed this year.

But the residents there realize,of course,that I think four or five miles will remain to be built and constructed, and are very anxious that the work on it continue. This road, Mr. Speaker, is very important to the people of that community. Branch is becoming~ lt certainly has the potential to become,a very important fishing community. MR • SMALLWOOD: Branch' itself? MR. W. CARTER: Branch, St. Mary's Bay.

At the present time the Federal Government are completing a breakwat~r costing in excess of $200,000, the Department of Fisheries, Provincial,has certain plans with respect to the ~evelopment of the fisheries in Branch, and the completion of that road will certainly add tremendously to the economic viability, the economic potential of that community. It will also, Mr. Speaker, reduce the travelling distance from Branch to St. John's by forty miles.

Without the road being completed,the people have to travel all the way down the Cape Shore.come out through Placentia, Jeryside, Freshwater and Dunville, an additional distance of forty 111iles. So I am very pleased and very happy, Mr. Speaker, to support this petition,aad I would ask the support of ~ colleagues, that it be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support 655~

May 4, 1976 Tape 2405 PK- 2 Mr. Neary: the petition. But I am rather surprised to hear the former Premier ask questions about this road as if the hen. member - MR. SMALLWOOD: Oh, no! I know all about Branch! MR. NEARY: - did not know about it, because it was the former administration that started the const~ction of that road to provide a short-cut.really,to the Trans-Canada Highway and to reduce the number of miles.

It has been very slow progress, Sir, very, very slow going on that particular piece of road, as on seve~al other stretches of road in Newfoundland,including the Loop Road in Bonavista North and the road in Bonavista South. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: But, Mr. Speaker, having said that I am not - And in Labrador South. And in Labrador South. - quite sure whether the member for St. Mary's and the Capes {Mr. W. Carter) is going to get the support of all his colleagues on that side of the House, because I do not believe the member for Placentia East (Mr.

Patterson) would agree with everything that was said by the hen. mi~ister because I think one of the reasons for the slow progress was, and the member for Placentia East would probably bear this out,that the people in.that area wanted all of the traffic to go towards Placentia instead of coming towards St. John's. So I do not know if the~e were any political overtones to slow 4own the construction of that piece of road or not. And then there was the matter of the fish plant,where the fish plant should be located in Placentia or in St. Mary's or Point Lance or Branch or wherever it is.

But anyway I think the people in that part of the Cape Shore are quite justified in asking to have that stretch of road completed. And I would like to see the government give every consideration to getting that piece of road completed this year. And one thing that I would like to ask the minister- he probably cannot answer my question - was·whether his old friend Dolph Nash signed ~hat petition or not? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member fo~ Twillingate. 6559

May 4, 1976 Tape 2405 PK- 3 MR. SMALLWOOD : Mr. Speaker, I do aot know of any petition that has come to the House in the present seasion since it opened that I approve and support more cordially than I do the one presented by the hon. minister. It seemed to me to be quite outrageous that that road did not exist.

It seemed to me that there~ought to be the great circle that you would go up from Placentia,go right on up the Eastern side of Placentia Bay to Branch, and then not have to come all of the way back again over that road, and that road itself, by the way,I greatly favoured improving, and some improvement has been made and I congratulate the hon. member for the district for the improvements that have been made, and I believe continue to be made on that main road Southward from Placentia extending all of the way to Branch.

But, Sir, it ought not to be necessary for a person having gone that far as to reach Branch to have to come back over the same road. You should be able to keep on going and make the grand circle. Now I had 'another reason to favour that . I went over it by helicopter. I got the helicopter one day and I flew the distance from Branch following the probable route of the road. And to my great disappointment that area of country between Branch and the place where the road comes to from the other direction MR. W. CARTER: St. Brides. MR. SMALLWOOD: St.

Brides - that that territory in betwe~n does not in fact contain the fine stands of timber that I had understood it to contain. I was quite disappointed. Nevertheless there is every possible reason for completing t.hat great circle, that circular route. And so I am very hearty and very cordial in my support of the petition proposed by the minister because it happens to be one of my own pet projects, indeed so much so that I began it before I went out of office, the road has been b~gun.

The bridge has bee~ built across, you had to get acwoss the bridge there right in Branch and then go on from there, and the road had actually been begun. Now I do not know how much of it has been added t~ it since I went out. If there is a peti~ion in today through the hon. member

May 4, 1976 Tape 2405 PK - 4 Mr. Smallwood: for that district,it would rather suggest that the road has not made too much progress. In all events it has not been completed. I think it ought to be CO'Dlpleted. This is perhaps not the year to be pressing for any substantial expenditure; I do not believe the government have the money. I do not believe they are going to have the money. And so, although I agree in principle•! think perhaps the government will have to think twice about any new capital account projects. But I support this. I am all for it. It is my own baby. Why should I not support it? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. member for Conception Bay South. MR. J. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise on behalf of my colleagues to support the petition of the bon. member for St. Mary,1s-the Capes on the road in question. And I hope that . as has been indicated by the member for Twillingate,that while all of it may not be able to be done this year as requested in the petition,perhaps a substantial part of it could be done starting maybe this year, and next year and the year after.

There is no question about the necessity for such a link up, and I am sure that all people who are familiar with the area, and certainly with the people down there, will certainly support the petition, and I hope as the minister lays the petition on the table for presentation to the department to which it relates,we will make every effort with his colleagae to see that this road is brought about in at least twc or three steps, and that it will be done.

I am sure the Minister of Transportation knows the area quite well, and depending on the needs for capital works projects this year, capital expenditure, that perhaps something aan be done. I am not sure where it lies / in terms of Provincial priority, but we certainly do and I would want the member to know that we do support ~he prayer of the petition. 6561

May 4, 1976 Tape no. 2406 Page 1 - IIIW MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Placentia East. MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Speaker, at the risk of offending or disappointing the bon. member .for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) I wish to support this petition. The road itself is certainly a good idea. It was started in 1966, and I think it is a little too long in the cards. I am familiar with that part of the country, and I certainly ~ould like to see the road completed for the reasons outlined by the hon. member for that district. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Before the bon. member sits down, in 1966 it was commenced,he says, but that was from the opposite , was it not? MR. PATTERSON: That was from the North Harbour end. MR. SMALLWOOD: ~m. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: Yes, yes! The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure I support the petition that has been presented to the House of Assembly today by my colleague, the member for St. Marys - The Capes (Mr. W. Carter). The road referred to by the petitioners is a road that this government has done substantial work on for the past number of years.

In fact, last year we spent substantial funds to carry out a total of five miles of reconstruction and new construction. This year the people have been informed that if at all possible there will be a new diversion and a new bridge constructed at North Harbour and, of course, every consideration given, and hopefully funds will be available for the carrying on of the work for the construction of this road which will link the North Harbour area with the Branch - St. Brides area. So I am very pleased to support the petition. MR. SPEAKER:. MR. HARSUALL: The hon. member for St. John's East. Mr.

Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of some seventy-seven people, a few of whom come from the great district of St. John's East, a lot of the others come from the lesser districts in St. John's. We also, Mr, Speaker, have people 6562

May 4, 1976 Tape no. 2406 Page 2 - mw ~1r. Marshall. on this petition from the district of Gander, a substaatial number of them, from the district of Conception Bay South and from other districts of bon. members in the Province. Now the one thing,while all signators do not come from the same district, Mr.

Speaker, they do have one thing in common in that they are all veterans of the Second World War, they are all employees of the Government of Canada at the present time who were transferred on Union in 1949 to the Government of Canada, and they all request the Provincial Government to take into account their pensionable service for the period while they were in service during the war, in some cases from 1939 to 1945, in the same manner as the provincial government now takes into account their service while they were actually working for the Government of the Island at the particular time.

Before getting into the petition I think the - AN HON. MEMBER: Newfoundland. MR. MARSHALL: No, the Government of the Island at the time. ThiJ was prior to Confederation. MR. NEARY: They were not working in Labrador. MR. MARSHALL: The petition, Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could read the petition, because that explains it adequately although I will have a few more coDDIIents on it.

"Whereas the §overnment of Newfoundland announced in its Budget Speech of 1975 that effective April 1, 1975,veterans who served in World War I and World War II and other major military conflicts would be eligible to have their war service to their country credited for pension purposes; and

whereas the War Service Pensions Act, 1975 was duly enacted by the House of Assembly which provided that war service should be counted as pensionable service for these persons employed by the government of the Province for a ten year periodj and

whereas the act does not include the counting of war service of Newfoundland war veterans who were employees of the Newfoundland Commission of 65S3

May 4,1976 Tape no. 2406 Page 3- mw Mr. Marshall. Government at the time of Confederation and were transferred at Confederation to various federal government departments in the Government of Canada. " MR. SMALLWOOD: May I interrupt the hon member to ask him if this is a reference to persons, to Newfoundlanders, who worked for the government before the war,then served in the war, then resumed service to the governmentjor did their service to the direct civil service,service to the government,begin after their service in the war? MR.

MARSHALL: Well, some of them, lllr, Speaker, conmenced before the war and some of them after, but the crucial period was that in 1949 on the transfer some of them were transferred to federal government departments, as it goes on to say here.

"Whereas the act - this act that was passed by the government - did not apparently fully carry out the policies set forth in the Budget Speech in 1975 in that certain Newfoundland war veterans who were transferred to various federal government departments at Confederation do not receive credit for their war service whilst their comrades who were employed in the provincial government will receive such credit; and

whereas the said war veterans who were transferred at the time of Confederation to the federal government departments appear to have been discriminated against in relation to war veterans who entered the civil service of the Province from the employed Newfoundland Commission of Government,

now therefore we the undersigned petitioners hereby petition the hon. House of Assembly and request that steps be taken by way of legislation or otherwise to enable the war service of Newfoundland war veterans who were employees of the Newfoundland Commission of Government at the time of Confederation, and who were transferred to various federal government departments of the Government of Canada to be counted as pensionable service of the said war veterans provided the said war veteran has performed not

May 4, 1976 Tape no. 2406 Page 4 - mw Mr. Marshall. less than ten years of pensionable service with the Newfoundland Commission of Government and the Government of Canada prior to addition of such war service." Now it will probably take a few more moments, Mr. Speaker, just to explain brie~ly the nature of the petition and why they feel they are discriminated against. By Term 3i (2) of the Terms of Union the Province of Newfoundland was to assume responsibility for pensionable service of employees prior to March 31, 1949 of those civil servants who were transferred to the Federal Civil Service. Now in fact, Mr.

Speaker, and I would emphasize this, the Province actually pays amounts to the federal government which in turn pays it to those people who have been pensioned from the federal government. This it does in accordance with this Term of Union. It, therefore, - that is the fovernment of the Province and not the Government of Canada - is responsible for those persons who retire and will retire from the service with the federal goyernment for a period of service prior to transfer. And many of these people,! would point outthad no choice and were directed in which service they should serve.

Now since the Government of Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, is responsible for pensions with respect to all employees at the date of union, whether now employed with Newfoundland or Canada, it would appear discriminatory indeed to allow as pensionable service war service only of those working in the Provincial Public Service.

Now to illustrate this: If A and B enlisted in 1939, say, and they both returned in 1946 to the Civil Service of Newfoundland; and then in 1949 A goes to the jederal government and B stays in the provincial government,the effect of the Pension Act is that B is recognized in 1975 for thirty-seven years,but A for-only thirty years, and this is unfair. In other words A's pensionable service does not include the time he spent in service of his country while B does 6565

May 4, 1976 Tape no. 2406 Page 5 Mr. Marshall. purely because B is a provincial civil servant. A is a federai civil servant. It is so, but do not forget the Province, under the Terms of Union, has assumed the obligation of paying the pen.sion portion for those people who did transfer and who were in service prior to 1949. Now the petitioners here feel this is unfair, and it does not carry out the policy of the government, and we cannot say- as I say~ it is a Canadian govermnent responsibility • because we assumed responsibility for all employees - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The bon. gentleman's five minutes have expired. He will require the leave of the House to continue. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. MARSHALL: I shall not take too much more time, Mr. Speaker, but I do need a little bit more time to develop this. To illustrate the unfairness and the discriminatory nature of it again, you could take the case of A and B in 1939 who were in the employ of the government of the day and B stays,does not go to war,and A does go to war, and they get up to 1949 and both of them transfer to the federal service.

No~the provincial government under the Terms of Union has to provide for the pensionable service of B1 who did not go to war from 1939 to 1949 for the ten years,but 6566

May 4, 1976. MR. }!ARSHALL: Tape 2407 RH - 1 with respect to A, who goes into the federal service, they only have to provide for him for four years. In other words, they do not .'i.nclude his pensionable service. Now I know that the government recognizing this, Mr. Speaker, would not want its policy to be.discriminatory and would want to right any injustice caused by unequal treatment. I also know and feel that some public servants of the ·day have apparently considered the matter and seem to have some difficulty in appreciating the clear obligation of the government here.

Now they are right in their application of the act 1but I do not think we can be imprisoned by the act itself because the government ohviously is not run by civil servants. The government is run by the government here and it is up to the government here to make its policy applv fully if it is necessary for to do. Now petitions of this nature, Mr. Speaker, are for citizens of the Province to redress their grievances. There are not too many people involved here.

It is my understanding of the federal civil servants who were war veterans and come under the amhit of the termR of union, we are only talking really about ninety or ninety-five because this petition represents some ninety per cent of them in the Province itself. I cannot see myself, Mr.

Speaker, - there are few petitions that have been presented in this !louse, I would give this opinion, although many of them, all of them have a great degree of importance, hut there were few that appear to have a higher claim for redressinp, of grievances than this particular one. ~ow, it is in the government's power and in its hands and I hope the government will act. It is somewhat easy for us in this day and age where most of us in this House - World War II is perhaps just a memory, if in fact with some people it is not even a memorv.

Rut with most of us we do not remember the harsh realities and we tend to romanticize the war. We tend to look at it in school boy fantasies as a great adventure as it were and tend to forget the fact that these are people who took six years from the prime of their life and went off to fight in a great battle at the time. It is easy for us to forget it at this time. But the fact 6567

May 4, 1976. MR. MARSHALL: Tape 2407 RJ! - 2 of the matter is that many of these people now are coming to their retirement ap.e. So the matter is becoming a matter of great urgency. As I say there are not many people involved. It is not my c~stom to advocate extra expenditure by way of pension, salaries or otherwise in this House because I feel that the precarious financial position in this country is such that we cannot afford the luxury of entertaining. This is a case, Mr.

Speaker, where the policy of the p.overnment,with all good intentions,has operated 1 in my view, a discrimination against some people who should be treated equally with their comrades who served with them in the war itself and that I would ask then that the petition be tahled, placed on the table of the House, referred to the department to which it relates, that is to the Minister of Finance for attention, and I would hope that the government would see fit to give attention to this. It would not involve an awful lot of·woney.

But it would certainly cure the situation, prevent unnecessary discrimination and recognize people who very deservedly deserve to be recognized along with their comrades who served with them in World Har II and who are in the employ of the Provincial r.~vernment now. SOMF. HON • MF.MBERS: near, hear! MR. S)'EAKER.: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. I'. ROWE : Mr. Speaker, it gives me a great deal of pleasure on behalf of my colleagues to support the petition presented so ably by the member for St. John's East {1-!r. Marshall). . It was, to say the least, a rather complicated petition.

It took me, at least, a great deal of time to completely understand what was involved in the prayer of the petition. But obTiously there is an injustice. There is discrimination. Something very· •unfair is happening here to people, to the last people in the world who it should affect, those people who laid down their lives, not in this particular case, but took a chance on their lives in fighting for our country during the lolorld War. Now I am not so sure, Sir, if this discrimination or this injustice or inequity was deliberate. It seems ,. 6568

May 4, 1976. ~m. 'ROWE: Tape 2407 RH - 3 to me more that it was simply an oversight. The very complicated nature of the petition indicates that this could quite easily be an oversight that could be very easily rectified by a minor amendment made in the narticular act to which it relates. Sir, I agree with the member for St. John's East(Mr. Harshall) that there is·a great deal of urgency with respect to this particular petition because some people are ready to retire.

It certainly is not going to break, however desperate the finances of the Province may' be, and it is not going to break the back of this Province, that one thing alone. It is not going to cost that much. So in supporting the petition, Sir, I can only say that the Minister of Finance act as quickly- ·and as promptly as he possibly can on this particular petition.

I am sure he will be quite happy to get up and support it, straighten out this oversight and at the appropriate time, as quickly as possible, move the necessary amendment to that particular act so that these people who served the country so well during the war will get fair and just treatment: HP.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition, Sir. I want to congratulate the member for St. John's East~r.

Marshall) in the manner in which he presented this particular petition, Sir, I do not think in a good many years that I have heard a petition so well presented and the case so well stated as the member did in presenting the petition on behalf of the Legion members. It is a very, very good petition. There is a grave injustice · there. It is something that · probably we did not foresee when we passed the act in 1975 granting credit to veterans who had served in the Second World War, and I presume too in the First \olorld !<'ar for that matter. There may be some people who have served in both wars.

But I khow that one or two of the gentlemen referred to in the petition came to see me recently to explain the injustice and the - I suppose what you could call the discriminatory aspects of their not getting credit for their time whereby . the veterans in Newfoundland 6569

1:,y 4, 1'17t'. }'r.. tlF.ARY: Tape 'l4'l7 RH - 4 nicl g~t the crenit. I thin~: the case has been very well stated. I tl.,ink the petition is 1ustifien. T '~ant to take advantage of the presenting of the petition, Sir, to remincl the hon. the T'remier on another matter in relation to veterans' pensions ann that was in connection with the legislation that we passed in 1 CJ7.5 wherehy HP. gave veterans credit for pensions, for time worked in the puhJ1c service providinp it '"as over ten years.

He cUd not realize at tl.,e time thnt we were creatinp, a little bit of an injustice there. lf I remember correctly the Premier told the House that we would let the leglslation go tl-Jroup,h ami in the next session of the House the legislation would be amended hecause there were two or three outstanding cases that I know, and I believe the Premier is familiar with one at least, where a person has nine years of service in the public service and served his time overseas and he noes not qualify to have it stacked to qualify him for his pension from the public service. The Premier promised to have that act amended.

We have not seen any evidence of the amendment coming into the llouse yet. T have asken the Premier on a couple of occasions about it. The Prem1er indicated that the government intended to honour its commitment to the veterans in this particular case. So I would like to also while T am supnorting the petition to remind the Premier of this commitment that he has made. ~~. SPFAKER: noN. P. noonY : The hon. Hinister of Finance. ~~r.

Speaker, as has been indicated by some of the hon. gentlemen who rose to support this petition as I do, this is an extremely com!'lex situation and one in which I am absolutely delighted and amazed thnt the hon. the Opposition House Leader grasped so quickly. He said it took him t'fUi.te a little while to grasp the full significance of the thing. P.ut not.; that he is fully familiar with it he supports it completely. All of us, of course, Si.r, support completely any help or assistance or any rlp,hts that the war veterans of Newfoundland have.

One has to very, very cnreful when one accepts the rights and duties of another jurisdiction. 6570

Hay ''• lq76. MR. DOODY: RH- 5 J.n this case I talk of the C'.overnment of Canada . Many of the people who are sir.nators to this particular petition,and many others whom '~e rlo not know of who are employees of the Federal Government,are entitlerl to the benefits and the Federal C:overnment is responsible for their pensions. I can see absolutely no reason in the world why the Government of Canada should not re.cognize the war service of the people of Newfoundland who, as has been said, fought so valiantly and so well indeed.

Indeed, Sir, I think the history of Newfoundland ' s participation in both World Wars puts the participation of canada as a whole to shame. I think it is absolutely deplorable that t he C'.overnment of Canada has not seen Ut to recognize the war service of those employees of their government who served in the Newfoundland forces as being pens ionable. This is the position 6571

~ay 4, 1976, Tape 2408, Page 1 - - apb '!R. DOODY: that we have been advocating. To extend the policy, Sir, to its ultimate and logical conclusion one would have to think in terms of al the employees of every jurisdiction in Canada, not only the federal government hut indeed everybody who served during the Great War or Great Wars or minor wars or whatever '~ ars, did have war service which is recognized under the War Service Pensions Act here in the Province, the War Service Pensions Act, 1975. At that time we here in this bon•.

Rouse recognized the right of all the employees who transferred or who elected to remain here in the Province and work for the provincial government of having their war service credited as pensionable service .• MR. NEARY: But who worked ten years here or longer. MR. DOODY: ----- Any changes in Newfoundland's pension legislation brought about since April 1, 1949, have not been accepted by the federal government as being applicable to Newfoundland transferred employees. Somebody mentioned, I think, during the presentation of the petition its being part of the Terms of Union.

Well, since April 1, 1949, the federal government has refused to recognize any of the legislation that we have brought in to help those employees of the Government of Newfoundland as being applicable to those people who transferred to the federal service. There are groups, Sir, to whom this situation applies. It is not only the seventy or eighty or ninety people who signed the petition. There are a great many more. We do not know how many of them there are.

We do know that t~e have accepted responsibility for those employees of the Government of Newfoundland and we have credited them with their war service and '~e are delighted to do so. But we do feel, Sir, in supporting this petition,that the Government of Canada should recognize that those employees of Newfoundland who are now working for the federal ~overnment should have the same sort of recognition in c~nada as other people of Canada who served in the Canadian Forces. And 6572

May 4, 1976, Tape 2408, Page 2 -- apb MR. DOODYa we have offered' indeed I have written documentation to that effect, to work with these people in any way that we can to help them present their case to the Government of Canada. But I feel that it would be most unfortunate if the Government of Newfoundland were to accept what I think is the responsibility and the jurisdiction of Xhe Government of Canada in terms of some of these pensionable employees. MR. MARSHALL: Would the bon. the Minister permit a question before he sits down? MR. DOODY: MR. MARSHALL: MR. DOODY: MR. MABSRALL: No.

Would the hon. minister pemit a question? No. Okay, that is fine. Well the bon. minister obviously does not - MR. SPEAKER: The ho~. the ~er for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I think that in view of the fine support that has been given to the hon. gentleman's petition, there is not much need for me or, for certain for me, to add any words. I do mOst cordially support it and I must say that I was somewhat moved by the hon. member's eloquence in his references to war veterans. I do not know how many war veterans there are in this Chamber. I know I am not.

I was too young for the ?irst War, I am glad to say, and too old in the second, and so here I am alive and I might not have been if I had been of a different age. I do not know how many veterans there are in the House, but if there are they must have been moved as I was by the eloquent words of the bon. the member for St. John's East. I gather that the minister gave his cordial support notwithstanding the slight suggestion of acrimony there in the latter part, as he sat down, was about to sit down. I gather that he supported the prayer of the petition and I certainly - MR. DOODY: One hundred per cent. MR.

SMALLWOOD: One hundred per cent. I am glad to hear that. 6573

May 4, 1976, Tape 2408, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present another petition from the District of St. Mary's - The Capes - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I did not realize that the hon. gentleman to my right wished to speak on the former petition, and he would not be able to do that ff the bon. gentleman were to now present a new petit-ion. So if the bon. the Minister of Fisheries will ~ede, I will recognize the bon. the member for Burin-Placentia West. MR. CANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to make it known that I am a war veteran, and I believe I am the only one in the House of Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CANNING: I heartily support the petition and I leave the fate of it to the rest of the House. MR. NEARY: And the Sergeant-at-A~. MR. CANNING: I am not too proud of the partY or the parties that I am involved with, the i.:!oerEil : Party in Ottawa when we became a party of Canada, and we have had a Liberal Party--here for~ twenty-three years. I am not too proud that nothing has been done aboa.t it.

But one thing I can assure you, as a veteran of six years in the Royal Navy - I was very fortunate, never got a scar, I have no ill effects, I swam for my life three times ,~~~so all I can say to those who served, and on behalf of those who served, is that they darn well deserve recognition. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the bon. the Premier, Sir, if there is any truth to the report in The Daily News of a possible enquiry into the project management of the Medical Health Science complex since it commenced?

MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER M>ORES: Mr. Speaker, fran the last three or four years there has been a continuous audit being done by John R. Parsons 657~

May 4, 1976, Tape 2408, Page 4 -·- apb PREMIER MOORF.S : Company, which has been submitted to the ---- government on the pro~ress and the properness of the project itself. However, the fiscal audit itself may not have been enough for the rumours, if you liketand the various stories that have been circulating, and it is the government's intention now to appoint an internal committee that will" not just check on the books, but be frorn,Public Works to check on the engineering that has gone on, ~lso from the nepartrnent of Health to check on the facility itself.

Tt is more,really, to make sure that the record is straight. If anything comes out of that report, Mr. Speaker, that is in the least hit suspect, it will be subject to an official investigation. MR. NEARY: ---·-- A supplementary, }fr. Speaker. A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the Premier then indicate - I did not get it quite clear -- if the investigation or investigations that the hon. the Premier ls contemplating, will they be held under the framework of a royal commission, a judicial enquiry or a Select Committee of the House?

Or ~Till it be an internal committee comprising of representatives of Public Works and Public Health and that sort of thing? Can the Premier make that clear? }IR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. l'RE~ER MOOBES:_ Yes, Mr. Speake:r. It will be, first of all, officials of the Department of Finance - headed by the Department of Finance actually - the Department of Health, and the Department of Public works, who will go in and do a fairly thorough check on the thing. If anything comes out of that that is in the least bit suspect, further investigations of a different nature will go ahead. MR.

NEARY: ------ A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Will the hon. the Premier inform the House if there is any likelihood, because the same project managers were involved in the Carbonear Hospital, is there any likelihood that the internal investigation would include the work that was done by th~ same project managers, or contractors,or what ever the terms of reference 6575

May 4, 1976, Tape 2408, Page 5 -- apb HR. NEARY: Hospital? KR. SPEAKER: PRE~IIER m<>RES : cover,in connection with the Ca~bonea~ The bon . the Premier. At the present time, Mr. Speaker, it il only the inter.tion to carry on this particular exercise ~o~ith the Health Science Complex. KR. SPEAKF.R: The bon. the member for Port au Port . MR. IIODDER: A question for the hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications: Would the minister advise the House whether the engineers f~o~ his department have verified the safe ty of the Kippens Bridge as he inidcated that they ~o~ould do last "Weekend? MR.

SPEAKER: Communications. MR . HORGAN: The bon. the Minister of Transportation and Mr. Speake~, yes, the engineers from t he head office in St. John's are in the Port au Port area today and they ~o~ere there yes terday. Upon their return tomonow I lolill have the report "With regard to the safety of the bridge and the possibility of having the bridge replaced this year. 6576 ,.

~·ay 4, 1976 Tape 2409 IB-1 I'll. SPEAKE'P.: The hon. member for Conception Bay South • }m. NOLAN: r•r. Speaker, I rise to ask a question of the Minister of Touri~m,I think. In so doing I would like to send over a copy of an ad which he may very well have,if I can find the page, in connection with some of the advertising that Brian Davies is doing. This copy I am sending over to the minister now appeared in ~he last few days in,I think 9 the New York Daily News. AN HON. ~'D'BBJ' : All over the place. -~· NOLAN: Yes, right.

And I am just wondering to what extent ~·r. ::;peaker - I know the minister and the government are spending good money attempting to promote the Province and so on - to what degree, I am ask:lng the question, is this type of advertising, if you like,counteracting some of the other efforts on behalf of the Province of Nelvfounrlland and Labrador. I am wondering, }lr.

Speaker, 1f there is anything that we could do1or in fact should do 7to counteract this type of thing because it seems to me that if you read it and wording alleged of the seals, "The air is full of their frightened cries mimi mi and so on, the slaughter of the innocents." 'I'Je look lil<e the biggest bunch of butchers in North America. ~'R. OOOJW: ~. NOLAN: That is just a fund raising ad. Yes; exactly. This is exactly as the minister says, an appeal for funds. But what goes before is what worries me.

So I ask the government and I ask the ~inister of Tourism or any other minister who might want to reply 1 do thev plan anything to counteract this? Would it be advisable to do so or not? I also have copies of this ad for the press or anyone else who might be interested 1 for that matter. "11>. SPEAKEP: ""Jl.. Hir.KEY: The hon. }linister of Tourism. In response to the question by my hon. friend I think it is fair to say that up to this year we adopted a position that would incncate it was better to probably ignore ~<r. navies and whatever proparanda he was spreading in connection with the seal hunt and so on.

It was felt to involve ourselves in any public relations effort to counteract would incleec only give him publicity, free publicity so 6577

l ':ly 1,, 1')71) IB-2 ,.,.. l'fCT:lW : to spe"k ,nncl pro":>hlv not necessnrily •·71.n for oorse]ves >'lOY c~anre in the situ:>tion. Tlow•ver rhe 1 a test efforts this year certainly have heen tnken intn ;occnunt ;ond llllVe been monitored to a fa~r derree. T am rot c-1 ear :1t this mn!"ent.

J cetnnot tell my hnn. fr:lencl :!:o etny kind of c1et,.:!l ••l1;,t ,.,e p];m to clo,hut I cnn certainly say that ther.e has hPen " ch:1nre i n our att~tune :In my deparrnent wHh rep;arrls to :lncleen the c1nnmf'"<' thnt ,,.i] 1 he r'one to the promotinn"J efforts thllt we are "d' inr in tP.rr •s of promot~. nr the Province and attracting people here.

T. mipht say that I have re11uested infonnation on J!r. nav:l .es n!'l tn f,:fs nTf.M1:!zat:fon,:~s to his funr1 raising efforts,and I have some in mv possess :inn at the l"oment. l~en I receive the rest of the informfltf.nn T t'<'uld hope at that time to bring :It to the attention nf 1"1" col leflp11es and :lsl· their approval or direct:! .on as to what pnrt:! c-ul CIT posi t:i on we should take. I can say that certainly I f0r '"Y nwn p:~rt feel very strc>npJy ahout th:ls and I think that ~ · r.

T':wies for the lT!ost part h11s pc>tten away "':!th a f!reat deal, that in<'een hE' is l"nch better off now, let me say~ than he was Phen he cal"le to tll<' countrv and certainly a great deal better off than when he st:trted thf" ;mti-c..,mpa:fp;n. netter off f~nancially? }"R • I1J CKEY : Fjnanci11lly in many ways 1I suppose.

So I th:!nk 1"111yhC> - T (lo not want to say :It for certain - there might Nell be an opportnn Hy to c>l•t Vr. navies and h:J s organization in the proper prc>spective fc>r those people "'he> he is ac'lvert:lstnp to or cl:l.rectinr- h:ls :H1vertise1"1ents tc> hv way of f:!nanc:I11J ass:lstance, to put th:lnp,s in their proper prospective 11ncl :!neteerl to show the other s:li!e of the coin w:lth re~arcls to Newfoundlanders who p,o to the sea1 hunt, why they po there r•r. <;pJ\J\KI\P: 'fl1. PT!'EnT'1': The hen. member for Baie Verte- '1\'h:l te Bay. "r.

Speaker, yesterday I aske(l a couple of. quest:lons of the "inister ·c>f Heaith rep,.'lrcl:lnp: the Spe«;ial Ach,:lsory romm:lttee on Ff'al th ~'anpot,•er. Tn h:ls anst.•ers he referred a couple of times to 6578

~· .. y 3 ,197 6 Tape 2409 I.B-3 l'l J'IEOUl' : . the tleployment of OUT doctor force and so on. What I want to as.k })i~ now is will this c011'111!ittee look at the other aspects of our health manpower including nurses and other people associated with the medical profession? ~m. SPF.AlO'T?: The bon. 1-'in:lster of Health. }!Tl. P.. r.OI.Lt N. v r. !'lpeaket, the commi ttee wil l b e l ook i ng at practicall.y all. of the areas where manpower is involved. We might have t9 add some people to the committee as we go along in terms of providing expertise,knowledge in any given field. But the exercise is des:I:~Jned to make recommendaticm concerning the whole gambit. 6579

Hay 4, 1976 Tape No. 2410 NM- 1 MJ>. SPEAKER: A supplementary? MR. ~InEOUT: Yes, I wonder,quickly 1 could the minister indicate whether or not nurses are now represented on the eommittee as it now stands? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. ~. COLLINS: ~r. Speaker, offhand I really cannot say and - ?ffi. RIDEOUT: I do not think so. ~. COLLINS: - it was net our intention to have representation on the Committee from all of the various disciplines in Health. The idea was to be able to draw upon the expertise of those indiv:! .duals in trying to arrive at a solution, not a solution but some recommendations. MR.

SPF..A!ER: The hon. member LaPoile,then following him the hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. NEAR.Y: ~(r. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the hon. Minister of ~anpower and Industrial Relations, Could the hon. minister tell us what is happening regarding the situtation at Terra Nova Shoes Limited, Harbour Grace, in connection with this strike? Could the minister tell us if there are any new developments and why the management is still allowed to refuse to negotiate with the employees even though the minister has p,r~nted permission to prosecute the employer1 What seems to be the delay?

What is han~inp, it. up? }ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial nelation!'l. 1-<ll. MAYNAI>J'I: ~'r. Speaker, I think the hon. member is well m~are that the situation is now in the hands of the court, and,as T understand it, a court hearin~ tv as scheduled for today at Magistrate's r.ourt in Harbour Grace to hear the case where the Labeur Relations Board has asked the court to enforce their order, an order which required the company to negotiate with the union, What has happened, whether the court case has been postponed or whether 6580

?'ay 4, 1976 Tape No. 2410 NM- 2 ~~. ~AYNARD: the case has actually been heard, I have not been informed up to this point in time. ~1R. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEA~R: A supplementary. ~W-. NEA'RY: Hould the minister tell the House if there is any time limit on when these matters have to be brought before the court~or can they be postponed and delayed indefinitely only causing confusion and frustration~ ~. SPEAKER: The hon. ~'inister of Manpower and Industrial l:'.elations. ~~. ~AYNARD: r1r.

Speaker, I would assume that the anawer to that question would be well know to most hon. members of this House who make the laws in the Province. They should know what the laws· are all ll.bout. Of course the court can postpone any number of periods of time. Once it is in the hands of the court there is no limit on how long the court can take to consider the problem,and 'if they want to postpone it that is completely up to them and certainly I am not about to interfere in the proceedings of the court now a~ at any other time. 1~. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. ~.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Apart from the court and apart from the minister interfering, is the minister concerned about the fact that the Province has $405,000 invested in Terra Nova Shoes by the way of a loan, and is the minister interested in protecting the government money that is in this shoe factory by bringing a little pressure to bear on the employer to negotiate with his employees and wo recognize the union~ Is the minister concerned about that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, I am concerned about the money.

Sure it is owed to the government. As I understand it, the amount Ol money that is on loan from government, any payments that are due are up to date, 6581

llay 4, 1976 Tape No. 2410 N11 - 3 I'R. l-IAYNARJ): but that is not the immediate problem; the immediate problem is the labour relations situation there. OUr department has tried eonstantly over the l ife of the disagreement there, even though the court case has been going on, to try to get the parties back to~ether. I understand that the union is quite willing to sit down and negotiate at any time,but we have not been very successful in getting the company people to sit do~m and negotiate . ~~ . ~~ARY: Is thts because they refused to recognize the union? What is the prob lem?

Do they understand the laws of this Province? MR. l''AYNARD: ~':r . Speaker , I. do not know whether they understand the laww or not. The laws are there. They have been ordered to neRotiat .e and in order for that <:'rder to be enforced it is up to the courts. I cannot go out ard take the man by the scruff of the neck and drag him in and beat him over the head and say, "You must nego ·tiate . " ~fR . NEARY: It is our money, the taxpayers money. ~ . ~'AYNARD: Oh that is nonsense! Use some c.ommon sense. t'R. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. member for Fortune - Hermitage; followtng him the hon. member fo r St.

John's East. 6582 .•

May 4, 1976 Tape 2411 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Fortune-Hermitage. MR. J. WINSOR: ~r. Speaker, this question is for the hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Would the minister tell the House if he plans to pave the

section of highway between Terrenceville and the Burin Peninsula Highway this season? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, any paving to be carried out or reconstruction work to be carried out in the bon. gentleman's district will be announced in due time either in the House of Assembly or outside of the House of Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. WINSOR: The hon. member for Fortune-Hermitage for a supplementary.

Would the minister tell us in view of the fact that Terrenceville is an important terminus for Canadian National boats operating on the South Coast with a hundred plus passengers at a time embarking and disembarking at this port every weekend,and another on a week day, would he give this paving further sympathetic consideration, a very strong consideration as it is a real quagmire in the Spring? MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN : The bon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr.

Speaker, every . consideration will be given to that request,and I will be pleased to meet with the hon. gentleman and discuss the matter further. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . member for St. John's East. MR. W. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon. Minister of Finance. Is it not the Provincial Government rather than the Federal Government which is responsible for pensionable service of Federal ~vernment employees who transferred from the Commission of Government to the Federal Government for that period of service prior to 1949? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. C. W.

DOODY: Sir, the War SerVice Pensions Act in 1975 which was passed in May of last year does not apply to the various gro*ps of employees who transferred to the Federal Government pursuant to the terms of Union . of Newfoundland and Canada. The Act as it was passed in this House was not intended to apply to transferred employees. because persons under the Terms of Union, the liability for pensions GS83

May 4, 1976 Tape 2411 PK - 2 !·1r. Doody: and the accredited pensionable services of pensionable transferred employees were fixed in 1949. Any chRnges in Newfoundland Pension Legislation brought about since April 1, 1~49 have not been accepted by the Federal Government as been applicable to Newfoundland transferred employees. The only changes which have been accepted by the Government of Canada are those resulting from errors or omissions made in 1949. The policy of the Federal Government is unders~andable from their jurisdictional point of view.

The Government of Canada must be free to make policies for all of its employees, and that includes those people who have war service, and whether that war service is with the Dominion of Newfoundland or the Commission of Government of Newfoundland or whatever its status might have been at that time, or whether the war services with the Dominion of Canada, the fact of the matter is these employees are employees of the ~overnment of Canada, and it is their jurisdiction. The Government of Canada and the other provinces all have their own provisions respecting war service.

And the provisions vary according to jurisdiction depending on the circumstances within their various jurisdictions. The Government of Newfoundland simply cannot generally take over a responsibility that is the Government of Canada's, or the Government of l~nitoba's or the Government of British Columbia's - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOODY: - no matter - or indeed you could transfer the logic down the line to the employees of Bowring's or the employees of somebody else simply because they had war service. I mean 1nobody in this bon.

House is more cognizant of what happens to people who have had war service. My father served in the First World War in the Newfoundland Regiment, he was a prisoner of war and captured in the Battle of M~nchy-Le-Preux, died a couple of years after he got home, and I was about a year and a half old, and I know the full affects of war service and what can happen. And there is nobody in this hon. House

May 4, 1976 Tape 2411 PK - 3 Mr. Doody: more sympathetic to the veterans and to what they have gone through than I am, because my family and my own circustances they were a direct result of that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear,hear! MR. DOODY: However the free crediting of war service under Feaeral legislation never applied to transferred employees insomuch as this was pre-Newfoundland, pre-1949 service. The Government of Canada never recognized war service in the Dominion of Newfoundland prior to 1949, and I think this is a grave injustice.

However the provisions with respect to the election to purchase war service applied to all employees, and war service could have been purchased in the past by these employees, and is still available to be purchased, and the Government of Canada will make that service available tf somebody wishes to purchase it. That is not the point in issue.

The point in issue is that these employees of the Federal Government want the Government of Newfoundland to purchase war service for them while they are employees of the Government of Canada, and that is difficult for the Government of Newfoundland to do while recognizing the right of these people to the recognition of their services as war veterans. Because if somebody in this hon. House or somebody in this hon.

Dominion or country or whatever it is we have can differentiate between spilling blood in World War I or II under the Royal Newfoundland Regiment or doing it under the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, that to me is a distinction which I. find extremely difficult because as I understand it, that was the way the story was told to me, all those people, all of us were involved in the same cause. And it seems most unfortunate that the Government of Canada refusea .to recognize these things. And I think it is unfortunate that the Government of Newfoundland is placed in this position. What I do 6585

'l'llpe. 2412 IB-1 1!1'. rnonY: s:w and T h<1vc> said h; that we 11.re prepared, willing, able 11.nd arucious to l11~lr thesE' people in their fir;ht u:lth the Government of Canada to r.et recnrnition for the w<'!r service th<lt they earned and thl!.t they did legitimately and well and honourably and decently.

Indeed, who is against veterans rir;hts? rert:dnly not T. rert<l:lnly not this p:nvernment, S:lr. \-That T .~m <'~/'1:dnst :1 s tJ,e fact th<'lt the Government of Can<lcla refuses to recnr;n17.e the fact that these people who are their employees are C'ntitler' tc> Frtr services. 1 thi.nk :It ~mu]d be ~vronp- for this r:overnment to accept th11t respomdb:llity,ancl I think it is 1•!rOTII': of the r:c>vern,.,ent of rnn<~clll not to accept it.

That :1 s the answer to the nuestJc>n ns T see it • • ~ ~ 'F. llll"<. ~'F:>'r.f.PS: Hear, hear! ~'T'. c:pr.;pxEn: The hon. memher for 'T'rin i ty-13ay Cfp 1.1ercle c>n ;;o St1T'p] e!l1entRry. liT'. p()l'f:: ''r. Spell h ,r, r:nuld the 111fni.ster inil:fcRte hov' !l1ttCh mnney is in,rolvec' l1ere in purchnsinr h<'lck these years of service? r.on] d hC' inilir.:1te 1•'1':.t the rotlll a!'1onnt - T do not know if he has speci-~'ir fir,ures - hut- tl1e ::~pprc>c:h1ate ml'ount of money th11t :Is :lnvo]vec1 here? 'f'1e hem. l'inister of Finance.

"" nnonv: Tt is il'lpnssihJe to rmt a value on it in dollars and cents hPr.m1se PC ilc> not knm-r hmv TNm y are :involveil. We do not kno~~ hm• JT'Ilnv people 1'1TP p:c>:lng tc> surface. He eannot even put a rnnnd fi rnrr• on it.

"e ro not kno'·' hov many people there are ~~hn are <Jorl<inr 1":fth - rlH' i!Ct thnt Fe 'lTe t11lki.ng l'lbout nm·l as :f.t was passefl for ,,,,r pensic>nahle service ent:lt1ec1 me111hers of the Constabulary, the f'irc>T'len, th<' '''•"-rclers, t<'ilchers, l'lemhers of the general pnbl1c service in "ePfounc11 ;mel~ l'lel"hers of the House of Assel'lbly and employees cntitlcr to " rpfcrrE'il pen!"ion, pec>ple c1:1rectlv respons:lble tn the 'T'he "ct cl.:f.cl not apply and it specifically exemrtec1 tnm>'fPrreil pnh]ic f'ervice p.eneral.Jy,•rh:lch are people who are in the feder11l rovernment, the forl"er Eoarclcasting Corporation of ~'e••foundl , anrl el'lpl nyees :>nf! their pensioners - they are now federal r:overnment responsibi 1 tty al.heit of a cro•'l'l agency - transferred U586

t'Ry 4, 1976 Tape 2412 IB-2 1'1'. lY'OTW: Newfoundland Railway employees and pensioners 'lomo are now· employees of the CN'P and should be a ~ responsiblity; transferred Gander Airport el!'ployees who are employees of Jo'OT or their agency; former Newfoundland Hotel employees 'lorho are now rN employees.

But of course these people 11e can locate and find but there are God knows how many other ex­ Newfoundland war veterans 1i>rho are 1-mrking ,,ith the government of Hanitoba,or work:ln~ with the government of Nova Scotia,or working in a crown ar.ency so111ewhere else in Canada who are employees of <\ir Canada or rN Romewhere i.n Montreal. It is l:f.terally and figuratively imposs:lhle. This thing has been on the go now for I 1i>7ould say at least four years. They have been trying to delve into it and trying to put a f:lgure on it, trying to put a number on it.

It simply gets !!'ore complicatec and !".ore M.fficult as t:II'!E!s goes on. It i.s not only a matter of applying it and saying, "Th:ls is the cutoff point r:lght here." How many dependents of people of wnr vPterans who are still aroWld lvho have not had these war services cred:ltec'l, applied to them, people Hho have passed on and whose widows and children are around who can Make a claim if this thing is changed to f:lt the structure as ia suggested? How many dependents or relatives of fomer Ne'lorfoundlanders or Newfoundland 'lo•ar veterans in other jurisdictions in Canada can apply to it!

There is no real way of projecting it, no way we can put a nmnber on it.- But even if you apply it down to that line , then should we not also pay for perhaps the 1•Jar senl:l.ce of people who are working for not only crown corporations as against federal government employees,but companies, independent companies or private companies or people who are :f.n business for themselves. ~1hy should their war service be denied them? tfuy should not the Government of Newfoundland pick that up also? lfuat the r~vernment of Newfoundland has done and is doing is pay:lng and picking up and giving credit for the war service of the people who are public employees of the Province of Newfoundland Hho served :In ,1hatever war.

This is being done for those people for whom ••e have a direct responRibility,and 'lore feel that to ~o beyond that is not only a matter of ~ollars and cents,as you point out,but a 6587

"By l,, 1976 Tape 2412 Ill-3 }rr>, noonv: T"Atter of accepting the pdndple that we should be responsihle for tl1e el'lpl oye<>s in other juris<Hctions. This is Hhere 1·7e get :Into a rreat deal of rifficulty. And nuite honeRty the answer to your originAl auestion- what is the dollar and cents figure? - I do not knoH. 1 'l1. SPl'fiTZET' : 'T'he hon. member for LaPotle. }'TJ NEArY: }'r. Speaker, have a question for the govemment House T.ea<ler, G588

May 4, 1976 Tape no. 2413 Page 1 - mw MT. Neary. the Minister without Po-rtfolio, I would like to ask the ~inisteT if he has yet requested the options that Mr. Morgan is alleged to have had on the MacPherson property that was bought and sold to the Summer Games Committee? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: The answer to that, Mr.

Speaker - and I think I should take a moment to outline the position with regard to this - as I see it the question that is of significance to this House, and to the people of Newfoundland whose House this is, is 7one: how much did the Summer Games Committee pay for the land~ and whether it was a proper price or not? Now that question has been answered by the Summer Games. Now the land was sold, and it is not of importance who sold the land as I see it.

Now the record shows that Robert Morgan acquired land which it is public knowledge was owned by members of his wife's family, and he, we understand, got an option from members of his wife's family sometime in 1973 in order to buy that land. He subsequently sold it. Now as I see . the position, the Government of Newfoundland has no right to demand from him or from his family to produce these options. I have checked,or caused a check to be made in the Registry of Deeds this morning. The options are not registered. I have sent a message to Mr.

Morgan and his family that if he wishes to provide the options that they would be tabled in the · House of Assembly. But at the same time~as he knows and I know, I have no right,and government have no right, to demand these options from him any more than it would have a right to demand some document from somebody who might have sold the MacPhe-rson property, the land, twenty or thirty years ago. The question really is did the Summer Games pay the right price or not, not what arrangements were made between this man, his wife and members of his wife's family.

So as I say really in answer to the question, I have made the request. If Robert Morgan and his wife's family see fit or wish to present these options I will table them. If they do not, then that is a matter that rests with them. 6589

May 4, 1976 Tape no. 2413 Page 2 - mw MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary - the hon. member for LaPoile, Mr. Speaker, is the minister aware that in The Evening Telegram, the day before yesterday, that the minister is quoted as having said that he was satisfied with Mr. Morgan and that he had the option long before the Summer Games came on the carpet?

What justification did the minister have for making this statement and being so definitive on that particular occasion making the statement to the House that this was perfectly proper, that the options were there, when in fact we do not know whether there were options or not? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: I only know, Mr. Speaker, that I have been told that the Morgan option was dated January 19, 1973. Now whether it is or whether it is not, I have not seen it. I was told it was dated January 19, 1973, and I think that was said by some other memberqof this House also.

More than that I do not know. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question. KR. SPEAKER: I will recognize the hon. member for LaPoile on one additional supplementary. MR. NEARY: Is the minister aware that in connection with one large piece of that property that M~. Morgan bought from his mother-in-law for $75,000, that Mr. Morgan did not have an option and resold the land to the Summer Games Committee for $275,000? Is tne minister aware of that? And does he not think that that is worthy of further investigation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister without Porffolio. J:fR. WELLS : To that point, Mr.

Speaker, and I think it is very important to make this point. As to the first part of the question, am I aware of this option or whatever it is with his mother-in-law? MR. NEARY: No option. MR. WELLS: No option? No, I am not. But quite apart fr6m that, I think that' the important thing is whether or not the ~590

May 4, 1976 Tape no. 2413 Page 3 - mw Mr. Wells. Summer Games Committee paid the proper price for the land, not what private arrangements there might be between mambera of the family. MR. NEARY : What ! MR. WELLS: It is what the public paid for. MR. NEARY: The minister has got to be joking. MR. WELLS: No, no! The minister is not joking, Mr. Speaker. In other words,if the Summer Games paid the right price, whether Mrs. MacPherson or Mrs. MacPherson's daughter or Mr.

Morgan's wife or bDother-in-law, how they shared up the money that came from the MacPherson land is of really no interest to the public of Newfoundland. MR. NEARY: It is not commercial land,by the way, as the minister told us the other day. It is not commercial property. MR. WELLS: My understanding is that it was. MR. NEARY: It is not! I checked with the City Council. I checked with the Deputy Mayor yesterday morning. It is not commercial property. MR. WELLS: If the hon. member has the information by all means lay it out. The information given to me is that it was zoned commercial. MR.

NEARY: It was not zoned commercial. MR. WELLS: I am telling the information that was given ~o me, Mr. Speaker, if I may have a chance to do so. It was zoned commercial, and the plans were well advanced for the building of some sort of commercial - I think it was an ~partment complex or something like that. If that is incorrect , then it 6591

}fay 4, 1976 Tape Nci. 2414 NM- 1 ls lnrorrect. Ilut the whole pcint really, and the question js, Mr. Speaker, and should remain; what was the proper price for the land? If the price for the land t>'as proper, really it does not matter to us which member fo the MacPherson or ~forgan family received the money, because that is an internal family matter. ~m. SPEAKER: The time has expired. The thirty minutes has expired. J cannot recognize any other hon. gentlemen. ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion that the House resolve itself into Committe of the Whole on Supply, Mr.

Speaker, left the Chair. ~'11. r.HAIFl"AN: Order, please! We are considering 605-03-07. The hon. Minister of Education. /"R. HOUSF: Mr. r.hairman, I just want to respond with regard to construction costs. I '~ant to respond tlO two or three questions th:lt <Jere raised at yesterday's sitting. The member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr.

Flight) asked,J think, a question ''ith regard to the maintenance and upkeep of schools and 1.f the department was ·responsible, and I suppose indirectly t~ere is a responsibility there but the Department of Education in the construction of schools are responsible for location, basically with regard to bus transportation so that of course we would not have these exce$sive costs becaase we insist that schools be built in the centres of population.

We are also concerned and have control over the size and the standards of buildings, the fire codes and so on,and of course the educational objectives I think we have some interest jn that also. And the Department of Environment, and I believe a n:!vision of 1'unicipal Affairs are concerned and have an input into locations also from the health standards point of view. Hhen these schools are taken over by boards, or the boards assume control of them, they are responsible for the upkeep under the act of the Legislature~and I suppose to keep them in good repair.

We do not have a very ardent inspectorate from the point of view of the 6~92

May 4, 1976 Tape No. 2414 NM- t }Ill • HOUSE: Education Department, but bhe Department of Health has a divis~on that inspects schools reriodically to make sure that everything is kept in a good healthy condition. For instance, they made recommendations about ventilation, proper painting, water and s~verage facilities, good lighting and of course see that the blackboards and everything, the chalkboards are kept in good condition. With respect to the capital grants on school construction, I did not mean to soft peddle yesterday. There was no such intention.

The fact is that we have in fro~ the Denominational Education Committees, projections for the next five years which will cost, I suppose 1 in the vicinity of $100 million. These are not fully authenticated, it is ju•t projections. I do not know if it is hard and fast projections. We asked them to present us with that and we have seen it.and we have met with them on the matter. Mr. Chairman, the fact is that this year ·, and we would be glad, very happy to be able to meet all the capital costs of school boards immediately. I think we would be delighted to be able to do it.

But there are other facts of life which we must reckon with. J'.nd from the very day that I assumed responsibility for this department,! believe the first meeting or the first talk I had about education·was with school boards and school superintendents and business managers and we talked about restraints, and we said that the government have said that thete would be no ma~or capital construction in the forthcoming year.

The school boards were afraid then, at that time, that the $11 million that we were projecting for this year would be cut back,and I allayed their fears by telling them that these commitments would be honoured and I believe school boards are aware of what the budget was going to do bhis year and I have not received a lot of flak about that particular thing. lnth re~ard to long-term loans, which is getting a little bit out of my league, but it would mean that if we had to get 6593

Hay 4, 1976 Tape No, 2414 NM- 3 tm. HOUSF.: the $100 million to meet the capital costs, it would mean specifically that the government would have to go to the bond market for $100 million and of course with the Provincial debt that we have now T do not think that is realistic at the present time. On motion 605-03-07, through 607-02-02, carried. MP. LUSH: I wanted to speak to 606. ftN RON. ME}f!IER: Already carried. ~IR. CHAIP.l-'AN: Is it agreed? It is agreed. ~fuich item, 606 - ? !-'P. LUSH: Do I have to , give any particular item in that? speak generally to 606, HR. CHAIRMAN: 606-01. Or·can I 1-'R. LUSH: Okay.

Mr. Chairman, thank you very much. I missed a couple of numbers coming down thraugh there. On the 606,the supervision, there are some things there that I would like for the minister to comment upon, If I understand it by the headinp, under the supervision 1it says it is for the salaries, travelling and office expenses for the 606,for the regional superintendents and the:!r staff. Now the salaries alone,$175,000 1 seem rather excessive, rather high.

If it is what I am thinking about. the regional superintendents, we just have one at the moment although we have had two,I think, I might be a little bit incorrect there, but let us say it is two, if that is so to maintain the offices of the regional superiteadents it is costing three times as much as what it costs to operate the minister's office itself and that seems to be rather excessive to me and having looked at that I would have to reconsider my ·own position with appo:l.nting the other superintendents, that indeed it is going to be as high as what this here is right now.

So I am just wondering whether the minister can comment on that, on why it appears that that figure is so high, so excessive. ~IR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Ninister of Education.

fay 4, 1976 Tape No. 2414 NM- 4 '1-m. HdUSE :· }fr. Chai~n, the figu.re is in there for salaries for five regional superintendents, if they are filled. That takes in the five of the offices if they are filled. That is not for one or two. We have one in operation now. lie are advertisin~ a'Qother and tcying to fill it at the preset t:fille and the vote is in there for the filling of the other three positions throughout the Province, That was recommended. ~. LUSH: Well if that is so the total figure then of that would be what it would cost for the six, the total. ~.

ROUSE: The five. }fR, LUSH: The five, well that i.s fine . Thank you. On lliotion 606-01, ca=ied, 'I-ll,; CHAIIDW{: The items down to and including 607-02-03 have been ca=ied. On motion 607-02-04 through 607-03-05, carried. ~'R. CHAIB!-IAN: The hon. member for Bale Verte -White B•y. G;)95

\•ay 4 •. 1976 Tape 2415 IB-1 J"'. ~l..,EOliT : ~·r. r.hail"JI18n, I would like to SllY a few words on this spP-.cfnl et'luc~tt:!on he~uHn(l that we are now into and prQbably get a few coaaents from the ~inister with regard to the special education in this P.r(IV'ince, where .,_.e are going with it. For the information of the minister,! ~ not talking about physically handicapped, education of the phyRical ]y handicappet'l. ~·.)hat I am talking about is special etlueation in the sense of ~'hat we used to at one time call opportunity classes,or .. clat:ses for the show learners.

This :Is an are:1 of education, Str, that concernR me. And r know of What I speak,because I have been i.nvolved in the e<lucation profession as most menbers know. It concerns me to~here these special education classes are takinr. our students.

I hnve kn~~ students to be in those classes for four or five years They spend four or five ye~trs - the philosophy behind it,as I understood it,was to help them .to ~et back into the -iustreaa of education,or maybe to get the111 :Into the ~eneral level of education i.n a trades school, somewhere tvhere they could pursne useful trades and become useful to themselves nnrl to society. T have not seen that happen in very many cases. I have seen stuclents in those special. education classes in the same class not go a.ny.mere, not move anywhere for as high as four years anrl I ~very concerned about that.

T kn~J that parents are concerned about it too, Sir, because I have knOMn cnses where parents recently in the Jast year or two have refused to r::l.ve their perll'iss:lon to have their children go into those ~asses. They have refused ~~te~orically to have their children go ~nto those classes because they do not see where they are going, they do not see the result. I know that the theory, the philosophy behind those classes !s r.oo~ and I know that some students need :lt.

But T have to s~y,and I a~ sad to say it,that it see~s to me that the s~cia] education philosophy has fallen down, the system has fallen down so111ewher,e • We a~ spendin~ $916.000 ~ special education this year. It ~ans that school hoarcls and schools ~ particular can get a 6596

}'ay 4, 1976 'l'a.pe 2415 IB-2 teaching tm:l t, one for every ten or ttvelve kids. It is great for the school an<'! I have seen it operate that way, But my question, Sir, is: I• it (;oocl for the students and what is happening to them. I am very concern eel about that. MR, CHAIRMAN: 'J'he bon. ~finister of Eclucation, VJ'.

HOITSE: }lr, r.hainnan, in responding to that, the special education prop:rammes were never intenrlecl for tvhat ~re call slow learners, and as a consequence the special education classes were designe<'l to take people throuf!h as much as poss:l .ble of a viable e~ucation progr::t .l!1llle throu~h the:lr total school years. It tv::ts not meant for slow learners. SlClt-7 learners tvere meant to coree un<'ler remetl:l .al prograllll'tes. T1nder the philosophy of special education of course it is never the objective tCI get special ec'!uc:Jtion stuc.lents back in the regular stream of the classroom.

That is impossible because they ne~d special attention. He have des:l .p;natec1 for these stu<'lents one teacher per twelve pupils or a fraction thereof,! think,to give them the best poEfS:Ihle tra:lninr, that we can in the school system, The fact,of course,about where do they go from here 7 that is 1t prohle111 that we are wrestling with. l-Ie have ~1restled with it a number of years.

One of the things of course that we have been trying to do is trying to P,et some programmes in vocational schools whereby these stucl.ents are able to go in and not take trades, because you must remember that to go :Into the trades train:l .ng you have to have the standartl Cra.de I~,"!: or XI to get into trarles training. Rut these stuCients go into a year programme that will help them to be a helper, a carpenter's helper and we give them a smattering of three or four trarles so that they ca.n help in these traCies.

He have a programme p:oing ~n Gander th:ls year. for these k:lncls of students. lve h~ve another one in Comer Brook that has been ~o:lng for two years 1and these are pilot projects,and also we are conte111plat:lnr putt:lnr. another course in another th:l s year. f:o that is that other part of it • G597 part of Newfoundland

''<~Y Li, 1976 T11pe 2415 IB-3 !11'. Jll)lTSE: 'iP. are ver~· concernec1 ..,..hnut jt. Hopefully ,,,e ~~i11 ~ome np with snrne pror.r<~I"'T'eR in tl,e 'Province to try to help them. The basic aim of course, is to try an~ r.:lve the~ the level of academic training th~t '"e can get for thel!'. hec..,..use these stndents are very special. The fact that a stuc1ent is in a speeific class for four years :!!" not overly sjr;nificant because nort'lal]y we have three or four divisions. Pe have a pri!'tary and. an :f.ntenner'l:f.ate and a _junior hi p.h and h:l gh school combined.

They could be in that class for four vears but they would not be ~oing the same thing over a four year period. ''1>. rinEOt,.,..: If the rdnister would pern>it ,I aT'! aware of that rlivision hut •·•hat I m'l. talking about is in a high school class for four years. •~.

H011SE: T·lell the hip,h school is the one that we are havinf! a Jot of prob1el!'s wHh, that is true,and T·Je are working '":lth it, and a.s I sav trylnp to arrange these programmes in vocational schools to ret the"' :f.n for soT!'e k:l.nd of occupational training is something that ,.,e. are ~mrkinr tmmrc1.s. 13ut as I said,you cannot get them :f.nto trades hecause the trades require various stanr:'lards of grades. '"' rrm:mrr: I would also l:l.ke to point out th:l.s to the minister - <~nn I understanrl l-7hat he :Is s:tying - but I also know, Sir, that there hns to he someth:lnr wrong w:fth our special education system, there has to be ,because I have seen those kids after spending -you know,you could not do anyth:l.ng for them in the htgh school special education class, or S(.' it '''aS sa.ic1.

Yet a year or two later they tum up into - what is it you call it? -a BTSD programme in the trades schools. They would get through that, take a trade and now they are in the job market worldng f:l.ne. So that to me reads there is a lot wrong w:l.th our spec:lal eC!ucat:fon syste111. that we have in the hf.gh schools and that is aJJ T am referr:l.ng to. 1"1'. !H'JUSE: Just one 111ore response to that, r<r. rhairman. It is a fact that a lot of these pupils who go 1.nto the 13TSJ'1 a:re not the kind of pupils 1o1ho shou] C! have been in these special educat1on. classes. They _ 6598

~·;o.y4, 1976 Tape 2415 IB-4 ~"" · pnpsr.: were ~ot what they call the mentally retar~en. They were the slow learner or the 1 earner '~ho had educational gaps in his background. Of course a l'ot of them came from schools that d:ld not have adequate f.ac:IJities at the t:lme to c1o :It, 'Jo when they got :In these upgrading centers w:lth these special proprammes they were able to respond and of course the other th:lnr they "ere responding to a job opportunity, I J!:He!ls,and that encouraged thel!! a little b:!t.

Dnt in the meant:fl!!e pror.rammes of. that nature, the JITSn are heing looked at to be used perhaps in relat:l .on to spec:l.al education programmes. ~'T'. CRAJ.l>Y.AN: 'rhe hon. lTiember for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. 1<1'. ~n•'-'0NS: r•r. r.hairm;m, ~,h:fle we are on this general subject of special eclucat:lon there are a couple of comments I would like to make. I do not know if gentlemen to my immediate right realize it or not hut they are being qu:lte distracting. 0rder, please! nr~er, please!

The hc-n. member reouires a greater measure of. attention ;md silence when he is adrlressing the House. ~'R. ~n<r•ONS: "r. r.haiTJ'Ian, I shall try again. I do not know l~hether · the r.entlemen to my :lmmecliate right are awar~ that they are beilt.g such a d:lstraction. It is very ~iff:lcult to speak. I do not intend to do !'n unt:ll I am accorded sol!!.e kf.nd of s:l.lence :l.n r.ommittee. Order, please! Order, please! The han. member finds :It difficult to make his comments to the House. Y". SH'!''ONS: ~ank you, ~ · r. r.haiman.

On the subject of special education, ••r. r.hairman, I ~'aS very delighted to hear the minister say two days ap;o :l.n ('ommittee that a new re11:istrar hacl been appointed to succeed the ot.her lady who I presume had resi!ffied or had transferred to another position. As some of us will know,the matter of registration of the phys:fc1<lJy hantlicapperl child has been ongo:lng · for a year or sC'I ancl the ,.,nrl<, I understand, has been partially complete. I am glad no-.r that the l·'nrk will continue under the superv:l .sion of the new G599

I>'Ay 4, 1976 T~tpe 21,15 lll-5 t1'. ~tt'!'ONS: TE'r,15tl:'llr . I ,1ust want to e,.,hasize this matter here in Committee while WE' are on the heac' Spec i al Education, because I hope none of ns,~~ncl p<P'ti<-nlnrly no one in the l"epa rt!llent of Education and nobody in ~tovernl'len t , ·will feel any pArticular consolation from the knowledge thAt in 197(. "'e nre At lAst t!oinl' An inventory, as 1t were, a -registery nf the pel'ple WE' are talkinp about . That certainly is an important first step .

Rut I 1-10ulcl hope t hat none of us woUld take any particular solnc e or consolation f rom the knowled$e that in a few months from now ~ will l~ve the~ all neatly filed away on the Appropriate size file cartts. 1 hope th11t we are coj;nhant right now, all of us, that while we do not kno"' t he actual number~t involved that we ought to be add r essing ourselves very actively to the question of what kinds of programmes are neec'erl to cater to these people. Now, }lr. Chairman, GGOO ,..

~lay 4, 1976. lffi. SIMJilONS: Tape 2416 RH - 1 it is a subject that has not been discussed much either in this Committee, in this House or incleed around the Province. But what kinds of numbers are we talking about? I am hoping the registry in the department in the next few months will be- able to answer that question, the question of how many physically handicapped people there are in the Province. I - am going to take a guess at it, not to be a prophet in any sense, but to indicate how serious the problem is.

Hy p,uess is based on some information I have. 1 nnclerstand - and I get this information from a report that I would recommencl to all members of the Committee. It is called "One Million Children", otherwise known as the Celdic or the r.eldic, however you choose to treat the "c", r.-1'!-l-d-i-c, the Celclic Report produced in Toronto j_n 197n. It addressed itseJf to emotional learning disabilities in children. I get from it the following couple of bits of information ~rhich I believe are apropos to our situation here.

I am told, for instance, that the Bridsh r.olumhia Central registry of Handicapped Children and Adults, a registry , by the way,which registers any person who "has a -disability severe enough to interfere with normal living, obtaining an education and later with earning a livelihood," and within that definition the R.C. Cetral 'Registry of J1anclicapped has registered voluntarily - the registration is voluntary - has registered people in the birth to twenty years of age category.

I am told that they find after about twenty years experience that 2.fi5 of the total population in that age group have some kind of ' handicap, 2.fi5 per cent. Of that 2.65 per cent,over seventy have a disability which is either physical, organic or sensory; twenty-two have some degree of mental retardation; and just under eight per cent have a psychoneurosis or a personality related disorder. Now, Mr.

Chairm~n, without getting into the figures here too much, just recall that a moment ago I said the registry in B.C. has found that 2.65 per cent of the population, birth to age twenty, 2.65 per cent have a disability; of that 2.65 per cent,over seventy per cent have a physical disability. So overall if you take the 2.65 and multiply it by the seventy per cent you will find that overall 1.86 per cent of the people in R.C. 6601

11ay 4, i976. NR. S!Mr'fONS: Tape 2416 RH- 2 in this age cate~ory have a physical disability. I will come back to that hit o~ information in a moment. The same report tells me that in the 19~6 census forty-two per cent of the_ POPulation of Canada was under t1~enty years of age, forty-two per cent.

Now if you take those two bits of information, the bit as it relates to British Colum&ia which I gavP you a moment ago 1 and the bit I just gave you for Canada as a whole, and project them over the present Newfoundland population you will get the following: Assuming the present Newfoundlan~ population at 514,000 and taking the figure from the 1966 census which says that of Csnsds' s population forty-two per-cent are under twenty, projecting that figure you will find that at the moment IY'e should have in the Province ' 21fi,OOI"l under twenty years of age, 216,000.

If you then take the figure for Rritisb Columbia w~ich I mentioned a moment ago, the 1.86 per cent as having a physical disability, if you project that over those 216,000 people under twenty here in the Province you will get the rather alarming figure of 4 ,01~ people. I am suggesting on the basis of pro_1ections that I have just mentioned that there' are approximately 4,000 people under the age of twenty years in this Province with some kind of a disability, some kind of a physical disability. Included in these figures, Mr. Chairman, would be those in the broad definition, physical, organic, sensorial - ~m.

HOUSF.: JIR • SH-1?-!0NS: ~m. HOUSE: }ffi. SIMMONS: HR. HOUSE: }IR. SH'IMONS: HR. ~IURPTTY: Specific learning disabilities, that sort of thing? Sorry, the minister? I say specific learning disabilities also included in that? No, I am c~ming to that. I see. The minister inquires about the implication for - Specifically in a broader sense, not Right, yes. The minister inquires about the implication in the learninr, context. I am coming to that. But I am 1ust spelling out the larr,er number first. I am told or I pro1ect, I deduce - MR. SUfMONS: Oh, oh! ~- 6602

!!ay I,, l(l76. Tape 24lfi RH- 3 'fR . Sil't' IONS: ''r. Chairman, it might be the time of the week, it is still early 1n the -.reel· nnrl 1 am verv short on patience. I do not see why I should hnve to come here and try and compete with a caucus meeting. ~ ffi.. ~HAIRMAN : Order, please! HR. SP1l'IONS: These are the men, Hr. Chairman, who are always telling me ahout the <'liJ!:nity of the House and t'ftat kind of th:l:ng. I cannot get a word in edgewise here for a caucus meeting going on to my right. nr.. C:IIAIRMAN: Orcier, p1ease! MR. SMALLWOOD: It certainly is not that. 1rr..

ST"M'IONS: Yes it is. 'm . nooDY: To a point of order. I wish the gentleman would be more specific and indicate those people to whom he refers,because I have been listening very attentively,or trying to,to what he is sajing, Sir. ~!R. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I am sure hon. members have no intention of interrupting or being in ;my way discourteous to other members addressing the House 1 but possibly they do not always realize that the conversations thev are engaP,ed in are rather intense and that their voices do carry. So I would ask hon. members to pay attention to these points. The hon. member. HR.

S 'JdONS : Thank you, }fr. Chairman. A moment ago I projected that about 1,,000, 4,0~fi people in the Province have a physical, an organic, or a sensorial disability in a broad definition of the term. I would like to exclude a group from that number,if I could. I am told from another report, a report which the minister and his colleagues in the Atlantic Provinces had done the past two or three years, a report called the Atlantic Provinces Report of the Special Education Committee. That report, headed up by Doctor Kendell and a J!:entleman or two from our own Province, Mr.

Cliff Andrews from the department, for example, served on that Co11111littee and }!r. Downey of the same division was on the Committee from time to time - that report, the Kendell Report I shall call it, points out that in the Atlantic Provinces there are ahout BSO people in the age group I have talked about, birth to twenty years 6603

~1ay t,, 1'17!>. HR. SD11'10NS: '!'ape 2416 Rll - 4 of age, about 85'1 ~~ho have visual or hearing handicaps. Now pro_1ecting that from a population standpoint that would mean that in Newfoundland there are perhaps 20~ - if there is 'sso in the whole Atlantic Provinces, probably 200 in Newfoundland. If you recall my figure a moment ago of 4,(116,or round figures 4,000,uith a physical disability and exclude from it the 200 I have just mentioned Who have visual or hearing handicaps, you are still talking about 3,800 people who have physical d:l,sabilittes other than the visual or hearing handicap. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I have excluded the visual and hearing handicapped people because in many respects pro~rammes exist for these two groups of people. We can talk later ander the appropriate su~heads about the adequacy of those programmes or facilities. But by and large programmes and facilities exist. So let us talk about the other ll,800. I say, Mr. Chairman, I allege that there are in round numbers 3, R(1(l people, between 3, 000 and 4, 00'1 people, let us say, 1-lho have physical handicaps in this Province in the age group birth to t1~enty. ~lr.

Chairman, I was alarmed by that particular figure as I am sure members of the Committee will be. Before mentioning it in Committee I decided I would talk to some people who are working with the handicapped at tbe provincia) level. I shall not mention names here because I do not have the permission of the people concerned. But I had a couple of long conversations in the past day or so with people in position, let us say, people who hold responsible, administrative positions in rehabilitation programmes for the handicapped.

I tried the set of figures on hath of them and the comment I got from one was that he was not at all startled hy the size of the figure. Now, Mr. Chairman, for the purpose of what we are talking about here I am sure it is not important whether 3,800 is accurate or whether the number f.s 4,000 or 3,000 or 2,000 or 1,000. 6604

/ May 4, 1976 Tape 2417 Pk - 1 Mr. Simmons: The fact of the matter is that there is a large number of people out there who have these handicaps. Now the essential question insofar as the present estimates are concerned, the essential question is how many of these are presently being looked after either in the regular school or in special programmes? And there is the rub, Mr. Chairman, there is the question that nobody can seem to answer and I hope the registry in the Department of Education will eventually be able to answer. I am told that at the Children's Rehabilitation Centre here in St.

John's they have about 1,450 patients, that is to say, I do not mean they have 1,450 in the residence at a given time, but on an on-going basis at any one time they have about 1,450 patients, that includes all categories, and it will include some who are just coming into St. John's for a check up once or twice or three times a year. But I am told that of these 1.400 or so about seventy of these attend school while th~y are at the centre,which means that the other thirty do not attend school while they are at the centre.

I am also told that the Rehab Centre receives patients on the hnsiR of referral by doctors or by specialists, which means of course, Mr. Chairman, there must be a number who never come to the attention of the Rehabilitation Centre. Now I do not think it serves any purpose to pursue this matter of figures any further. I just wanted to get into the record some idea of the appalling numbers 'we are talking. And I say again that I believe we will find when the registration is complete we will find there is somewhere between 3,500 and 4,000 people in the particular category which I have spelled out a moment ago.

If that is so, Mr. Chairman, indeed if it is only half of that number, then the onus is on all of us to immediately address ourselves to programmes which will provid~ not only for their nursing care, a subject I mentioned ear1ier, but which will provide for their educational need as well. This one concerns me, Mr. Chairman. I have said so before, And I have heard the minister and I am happy with t~e direction Gf105

May 4, 1976 Tape 2417 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons: he is obviously going in. And my only reason for rising now other than to get into the record the possible numbers who are involved. My only other reason for fising is to emphasize again the absolute urgency of getting on with the task of providing adequate educational programmes for this particular category of student. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 608-01 carry. On motion 608-01 carried. On motion 608-02 -01 through 608-02-03 carried. ?1R. CUAIRNMI: Shall 608-02-0t, carry? HR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, under 04, I am sorry you called 04 - I am sorry I want the next one. ~ fR.

CHAIRMA.1-J : Shall 608-02-04 carry? On motion 608-02-04 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN : Shall 608-02-05 carry? MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Chairman, under head 608-02-05 - Education and Maintenance - Blind Children. I am presuming, perhaps the minister can indicate with an nod, I am assuming that this relates to the government's financial input into the Halifax School for the Blind. \ Yes, the minister confirms this. I have a couple of questions for the minister. Would he indicate what facility physical plant facility is presently being used, is it the same facility that has been used for a number of years? MR. HOUSE: Yes. MR.

SU1MONS: Yes, the buildings that were originally erected about 1870. And I am gl*d to hear the minister indicate he has a comment because this facility has a report to the minister informing him about three years ago to his predecessov, to his department three years ago a report of that time indicated that the facilities were not only outdated in the calendar sense of the term, but were in many respects much less than adequate, and indeed the report goes out of its way, as it were, to find enough adjectives to describe the inadequacy.

It talks about the hazards, I do not have the report with me, but I remember underlining with my red pencil the adjectives, 6606

May 4, 1976 Tape 2417 PK - 3 Mr. Simmons: and within one paragraph there were four or five criticisms of the facilities at Halifax, all of which called into very serious question the continued use of that facility for the purpos~ of providing facilities for the blind. Perhaps before saying anything further I will hear what the·,minister has to say on the subject. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Chairman, the particular head there,$375,000, that is based on roughly $10,000 per pupil that we send to the school per year.

And that has been wavering around that amount for a number of years. I visited the School for the Blind in Halifax, and of course a lot of my colleagues have visited it, and previous ministers. MR. NEARY: I visited it also. MR.'> HOUSE: Did you? It is a very inadequate building. It does not meet the standards for people living in it. And the point about it is, is the fact it seems to me, you know, the atmosphere does not look too,·good. But it is a very good programme they have got there. MR. NEARY: The beat we have got right now. MR. HOUSE: Yes,it is the best we have got. It is a very good programme.

The idea is now the four provinces are going together on the erection of a new building built for the specific purpose of educating blind children in the Atlantic Provinces. That is going ahead now, the purchase plan is being looked after now. And of course the old building will be sold, and will reap a very good income, and the provinces are going in on this. And it is hoped to have one of the most modern facilities in Canada for the education of our blind students. Perhaps a little bit more programming than we have got now because I think we can get more into vocational work for these pupils. MR.

NEARY: The number of blind kids is getting less and less all the time. GG07

May 4, 1976 Tape 2417 PK- 4 MR. HOUSE: Yea. that is right. The number of blind - and incidentially the other thing is that the recommendations are of course that a lot of the people we have in blind schools, perhaps the less severe cases can be handled in special situations in regular school systems. That is being recommended also. One of the things of course - MR. SIMMONS: MR. HOUSE: MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, would the minister - Yes.

Before the minister leave that subject would he just mention at what stage the plans are, I mean has the contract been called or has a decision been made om, on the school, I mean? MR. ijOUSE: No. There are preliminary plans, I think.! have not seen them as yet, the plans. I think the preliminary plans are done, and they are at the point now of trying to acquire a block of land, and of course, they are trydong to get that in the Halifax area 1 right near the doctors and the university so that they can use some of the services there. MR.

SIMMONS: What will be this Province's financial commitment to the capital cost though? MR. HOUSE: Well that has not fully been determined as yet, but I would assume perhaps it will go about 28 per cent, 28 per cent less, of course , less the amount that we will get for the old building. Of course that is going to be put in as a total grant towards the construction. And I believe there is an amount of money besides that already on hand from a trust fund. That belonged,! think, in Nova Scotia, but it will be put toward the cost of that building also. I say it should not exceed $500,000 of Provincial input.

It should not. MR. SIMMONS: it1 MR. HOUSE: There is nothing in this year's vote anywhere for Well there is nothing in this vote, If we have to get that amount this year of course it will be taken tare of in some other way. I do not know if I will need it this year o~ not. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 608-02-05 carry? On motion 608-02-05 carried. 6608

May 4, 1976 Tape 2417 PK - 5 On motion 608-02-Q6 through 608-02-Q7 carried. ~!R. CHAIRMAN: Shall 608-02-08 carry? DR. R. WINDSOR: Mr. Chairman, 608-02-08 - Centre for Learning Disabilities. I have a very special interest in the unit at the Institute for Learning Abilities at the University. I would ask the minister to clarif y for me exactly the purpose of these grants or subsidy or what of $50,000 for this unit. Would he mind sort of clarifyin g it for me? 'iR. CRAIRHAN: The hon. Minister of Education. MR. ROUSE: The purpose, Mr.

Chairman, of that grant, it is a grant to the Development of Ruman Abil1t1es,I think, Division at the University. And we have a school there were the teacher teaches special education teachers, or some aspect of their training goes t o that particular person. And in so doing we utilize the normal class situation by bringing in pu~ils who have specific problems. And it is 6609

May 4, 1976 Tape no. 2418 Page 1 - mw Mr. House. providing two services; one, it is providing us an on-t~e-spot situation for teacher training, and the other it is providing a service to the surrounding schools and this could be a service right throughout the Province if people can get them in there, and this is the identification of specific learning problems, and of course, some recommendation of action to be taken back in the regular situation. So that has been very useful, and very useful in both instances.

So there is an extra amount put in for extra help this year for that particular programme at the university. But it is a service to school boards from the university. MR. CHAirMAN: The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d1 Espoir. _MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, on that head, did I hear the minister to say that 08, Centre for teaming Disabilities,is attached to the universityZ I am wondering if we are confusing two. I understood this related to the school at Torbay. MR. HOUSE: Nq, the tvanty-seven or part of the twenty-seven. Seventeen of the twenty-seven last year. That seventeen belongs there.

The difference between the fifty-three and the twenty-seven is for the additional staff, a couple of additional staff members for the impri!!Vement of that unit. MR. SIMMONS: Again for clarification: Where is the unit', at the university ? Is that what the minister ts saying? MR. HOUSE: Yes. MR. SIMMONS: I see. On motion 608-02-08 through to 608-02-10 carried. MR., CHAIRMAN: Shall 609-01 carry? MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, I rose on 609-01. Just a couple of questions here. Again I am referring to the same report, the report prepared by Dr.

Kendell, and the report was somewhat critical of the physical accommodations being provided for the School for the Deaf at Torbay. I wonder if the minis;er would tell us what plans - MR. HOUSE: Mr. Chairman, what is the date of that report? I am not sure I am familiar to date with that report. G610

May 4, 1976 Tape no. 2418 Page 2- mw MR. SIMMONS: It is 1973. MR. HOUSE: We have had one since then. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, I see. I just wanted the minister to indicate to me - he has anticipated my question - I wanted to know whether these comments still stand or if improvements have been made. I have never been in the school down there, I must admit, but I just wanted for my own information and that of the Committee to inquire as to what the up-to-date status of the conditions of the school might be? MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister of Education. MR.

HOUSE: It is very difficult for me to see the difference in what it was then and now, because the Kendell report was something done a few years ago, and because of some problems that existed later, we had another report done through the Atlantic Provinces Special Education - we call it the Bunch report - and that, of course, has just been discussed at government level. There has been considerable improvement and, of course, they are recommending improvement both physically and, of course, with staffing also, and there will be additional staff, particularly for, I believe, the position of a superintendent.

I am not exactly sure of tha;, but I think it is either a dean or a superintendent to look after the residences there. I cannot state ~n definitive terms how much improvement has been made, but there has been considerable improvement. However the Bunch report does state that we should do more and, of course, probably in the foreseeable future we will have some recommendations to present on that. I am not very definitive about that, because I cannot relate what was and what is. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, let me put it a little more specifically.

The reports I have on this school, the facility for this school at Torbay , are all secondhand both from the report,and from talking to someone on the subject in the last forty-eight hours indeed. Does GG11

May 4, 1976 Tape no. 2418 Page 3 - mw Mr. Simmons. the department have any plans to either further upgrade the building or are there plans to relocate the school or to provide a new facility? &. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minsiter of Education. HR. HOUSE: Not specifically, not at the present moment. We realize the inadequacy, and we realize the need perhaps of the location of the building to be in an area closer to town, near the other existing educational facilities in town. But I went through the building, Mr.

Chairman,and visited it, and it seems to be a reasonably good building and obviously there is room for improvement as in most of our institutional schools, and it is a matter of study now, and I cannot go any further than state that. The only thing I can say is that we are very concerned about the education of all pupils. I stated that in my

preamble to introducing the estimates. And anything we can do to upgrade or provide facilities will be done and, as I said, it is a matter of continued study, and this is as far as I can go. On motion 609-01 through to 610 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 611-04 carry? The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde MR. ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, there are a few questions I would like to put to the minister concerning the College of Trades and Technology and really I have similar questions to put to the minister relating to the vocational schools, the College of Fisheries, the polytechnical institute and ~ have we reached MUN yet or have we passed it - and Memorial University. So with the permission of the Committee I would like to ask these questions now, which would relate to these different subheads rather than having to get up and consume the time of the comminity, get up four or five times and essentially ask similar questions.

I could do that with the peraission of the Committee and if the Chairman feels I am out of order he will no doubt give me a dart. Sir, the first point~ and it is a general question - I would like to bring up is something that was raised two or three GG12

May 4, 1976 Tape no. 2418 P~e 4-~ Mr. Rowe. years ago when Mr. Speaker was Minister of Education. This was the whole business of the need for trying to standardize or equalize student financial assistance in the various post-secondary educational institutions in the Province. Now as the minister knows with respect to the College of Trades and Technology and the various vocational schools and even the FiSheries College, you do have the provincial allowance, which is available to the students, which does not amount to very much, but it is some small form of assistance.

With respect to some other courses and some other students in these same institutions,the students can get the federal allowance which is a substantial allowance. Well,it is a salary almost. With respect to the university we have the student aid programme which for all intents and purposes amounts to a loan, and the students end up with a great substantial debt at the end of four or five or six years of study at the university. And the question I wish to put to the Minister of Education is: Has the minister,since he has been Minister of Education 1or has the former Minister of Education, Mr.

Speaker, or the officials of the Department of Education taken into consideration or studied the feasibility or desirability of trying to standardize in some way GG13

~lay 4, 1976 Tape 2419 ~'R. ROWE: tbe student assistance or student allowances or financial Rssistance that go to students in these different post-secondary educational insti~utions .

In other '~ords what I am saying is this, that I fear that in the past, I do not know what the situation is now because the space at the College of Trades and Technology and vocational schools is limited to say the least, but N¥- 1 in the past I was quite convinced when I had researched the problem two or three years ago when I was spokesman for education, that our students in Newfoundland were electing to go to the College of Trades and Technology and to take certain courses of study not because they wished and desired to take these courses of study, but because there was a nice salary involved, a nice federal allowance, Manpower allowance available to them for attendance at that institution.

And I think this almost relates to some comments that the member for LaPoile (Nr. Neary) had to say, a place to go for the Winter and make money at the same time. Now these same students told me, and there w·ere quite a number of them, that their re•l wish in life, desire in life, was to go and study at the university.

Well,why should I go to the university and get huge loans and owe a great debt at the end of my university studies when I can go over to the College of Trades and Technology, take a certain course and spend a year or two, get a good salary and if I am married get a better one and come out with a "''R. ~'UPJ'UY': Money in the bani,. l-1R. ROWE: - well I ldll not be led completely t'rom the sublime to tlle ridiculous by the bon. member for St. John's Centre (Mr. Murphy). 'I"R. MTRPHY: ?IR. ROWE: speaking. Ridiculous is right.

But they would certainly come out better off financially So I think in this Province of ours when we consider the amount of money, and I realize there are a lot of difficulties because 6G14

May 4, 1976 Tape No. 2419 NM- 2 ~rn .• ROWE: we are getting into federal government jurisdiction, provincial government jurisdiction and this kind of thing,and then you have got your various private sources of funds through scholarships and what have you.

But I think it is time for this Province to probably show leadership in the whole nation with respect to giving students coming out of high school, giving them the opportunity to study the course that they want to take, you know,what they feel in their guts, what they want to take, whether it is at the College of Fisheries, or the College of Trades and Technology or a vocational school course or the School of Nursing, Mr.

Chairman, the School of Nursing as opposed to schools of nursing or nursing schools as opposed to the School of Nursing at the university, whether it is the School of Nursing or Memorial University or in certain cases adult education courses. But what I am trying to say is that if a person could take the course that he really wanted to take,based on his desire to do so rather than being swayed by what amount of money ia available in the form of student assistance, it would be much desirable, much more desirable than the situation that we have at the present time. HR.

HOUSE: Where is the assistance greatest then,going to vocational schools? }m. ROWE: The assistance -now I am relying completely on memory here, I had the charts here la•t year. I had it broken down, the numbers of students receiving the various forms eof assistance, but the greatest assistance goes to - I cannot even remember the names of the courses, Obviously the minister if he does not have it should have it somewhere in his files there. MR. HOUSE: I do •. MF. ROWE: But the greatest assistance went to these students who took certain courses at the College of Trades and Technology.

In other words,they qualified for the Canada Manpower Allowance Programme, or whatever the heck it was called at that time. It GG15

r!ay 4, 1976 Tape No. 2419 ID1- 3 r-rn .• TWHE: ••as the equivalent of a nice little Sc'llary and :l.t was also dependent upon ••hether he was married, the amount he got, it was also dependent upon the number of dependents that the had. Now it was beyond the capacity of the Province altogether to provide,say,~emorial University students with the same formula, beyond the capacity of the Province altogether. But we do have that inequity.for better or for worse with respect to financial assistance being available to students.

And the minis~er, I would suspect, knows a heck of a lot more about it than I do in M.s capacity as Hinister of Education. But the real question is, is the minister and his department studying and looking into the possibility of some day trying to standarize and equalize financial assistance to students attend:l.ng post-secondary educational institutions so that they go to the place that they want to go, not to the place where they "'':!.ll p,et the greatest amount of money in the course of their study.

I guess that is the question in nutshell that I cot1J d 1utve asked through the various subdivisions that will be coming up. Also, a couple of more questions, Mr. Chairman. I take it the m,inister got that one. vlould the minister like to indicate-well let me just provide some background, When it appeared that the polytechnical institute was not going to really go ahead within the i111111ediate future 1and I think the handwriting was on the wall with that one some numbers of years ago, I think even before the previous administration left office it·was still talked about.

It was not certainly going to be planted there the next day. But when that started to sort of •dther away because of the financial restraints, the minister of the day in 1974, Mr. Speaker again, the present ~·r. Speaker, announced that the government had extended the teaching day for the vocational students in this Province. Now I would suggest that although he said vocational students it would also possibly applv to the College of Trades and Technology students, as well as the 6616

~<ay 4, 1976 Tape No. 2419 NM- 4 MR. ROWE: vocational schools . It was stated at that time in Janaary,l974 in the Throne Speech that the teaching day would be extended and this would be - it would be extended and introduced, and this would result in 1,000 vocational extra, an extra 1,000 vocational students in this Province. I wonder if the minister would care to comment on the success of that prozramme and if indeed we have attained that figure of 1,000, if we have surpassed 4t or if we have not reached it, 1,000 extra vocational students.

And probably in closing, the last final short question, one which I could play politics with, and that of course is the ¥Thole MR. NOLAN: You would not do that~ MR. ROWE: Of course I would not do anything like that, Mr. Chairman. NR. ~PRY: Ne>t Likely! MR. ROWE: I was wondering if the minister,you know,could enlighten the Committee,and I might have been out somewhere when a question might have been put to him, but without getting into a political harangue about this, just what is the status of the residences for the College of Trades an~ Technology?

You know~we keep hearing about the acquisition of property and the confiscation of property and plans being made up and tentative plans being made and I thought I heard that confiscation would have to be involved. But anyway acqusitions,certainly,of property have to be involved. Then we heard about tentative plans and I do not think ~•e even really go to the point - yes, the final plans were in the hands of the officials at the College of Trades and Technology. Now that is the last I heard of it.

Now plans are fine but plans do not make very comfortable livinp, quarters for the students at the College of Trades and Tet • ology. Would the minister just level with the Committee on that one? You know, heave it out of him, the full and whole truth about it,and as long as we get a satisfactory answer we will got badger the minister to death on a political basis but no wishy-washy stuff,please, ~r. ¥inister, on the answer to that question, because 6617

Tape No. 2U 9 NM - 5 ''R. RJW'Ti : tt is very i~portant to the students at the r.olleRe of Trades ani! 'l'P.chnoloi?,V and it is - sn~w. JTI'lN. "ffi''r.E'P.S: llear, henr! There is a conference going on so before J. carry on, '~r. Chninnnn, T Hould 1 ike to let the Minister of Finance - AN JTflN. ~!E''BF.l'. : Tell us t!le finnncial statement. GG18

May 4,1976 Tape no. 2420 Page 1 - IIIW Mr. Rowe. Lay It right on the line. Tell the students at the College of Trades and Technology what is the status of that residence • When will building commence? If the minister does not know,let him say so. If building is to commence in two year's time or one - ~ear's time or three year's time,t~ll the students. Do not try to fool the Committee of the College of Trades and Technology students with wishy-washy statements, which I have not yet really heard from the minister in this regard. I think it is safe to say, Mr.

Chairman, that over the past three or four yearseand with the passing of various Ministers of Education - passing politically speaking, departmentally speaking - with their passing so ha• passed the College of Trades and Technology residences. So I would like the minister to stand up straight, give it to the Committee as it is, not as he would wish the students to believe.- just these three questions. MR.. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: Mr. ehairman, I notice the hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde is a little more affable today, but I must say, Sir, that I have not yet seen the hon. minister not stand up straight. I do not think he has been lying down on the job piloting his estimates through the House. The hon. minister, in his first attempt at putting estimates through the House, has been very decent , very civilized, a real gentleman in providing the answers to questions that are put from this side of the House. SOME RON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

NEARY: Mr. ehairman, in connection with the College of Trades and Technology, although the residence part of it, I suppose, is disturbing to the students, that is not the real problem at the moment, Mr. Chairman. You have to get things in their proper perspective in connection with the College of Trades and Technology. You have to get your priorities straight. The residence at the moment is not the number one priority, is not the top priority in connection with that college. 6G19

May 4, 1974 Tape no. 2420 Page 2 - 111W Mr. Neary. The number one priority is the expansion of the College of Trades and Technology, As I have said so often since we started the educational estimates tha~ four out of five students every year ar in the past four or five years have been turned away fro• the College of Trades and Technology becaua~of lack of apace. The doors have been slammed in their faces. Joung •en and young wo•en in Newfoundland who want to take technical training,­ not because, Mr. Chait'1118n, as the bon. al!lllber for Bay de Verde (Mr.

Rowe) pointed out, not because they are looking for a place to get in for the Winter to get the Hanpower allowances, because that ill not the culprit. The College of Trades and Technology-is not the big culprit. There are other vocational training institutes and upgrading programmes that are the culprits in attracting people fro• welfare and unemployment insurance into courses where they can get in out of the weather in the Wintertime. But the College of Trades and Technology,! do not think, Mr. Chair.an, you could put in that category.

Ninety-nine point nine per cent of the students at the College of Trades and Technology are there because they want to learn a trade. They want to learn about technical training. They want to become technicians. And so in my opinion, Sir, the number one priority is to provide more accommodations and to provide •ore instructors and to provide more courses, more avenues of training for young men and young women in Newfoundland who would prefer technical training rather than get this little certificate from Memorial University that will not get them a job.

They cannot find a job after they get their little certificates that we hear so much about, So, Sir, I would like for the minister to tell the House just how the College of Trades and Technology proposes to deal with this lll&jor problem. Will the go.vernment and will the minister' a department be dealing with this problem before September co~ng when we will again be faced with a major crisis as far as the number of applicants

May 4, 1979 Tape no. 2420 Page 3 - mw Mr. Neary. who have to be refused admission to the College of Trades and Technology are concerned? I understand that some of the courses have now been farmed out, that the minister's department, the government, are now using parts of the old sanatorium to run some courses in connection with the College of Trades and Technology, and these buildings are completely unsatisfactory. Yirst of all they are almost too far out of the way, I suppose, for the convenience of the students, and the instructors. They are old buildings.

They are buildings that were built there during the Second World War. And I do notdclow what condition the buildings are in. Perhaps the minister can tell us, but I can only assume that they are in very, very poor condition. But out of desperation the minister and his department iad to take advantage of these vacant buildings that became vacant when they moved the T.B. patients into St. Clare's Hospital, that they had to haul their butts in somewhere to provide some space to take the pressure of the number of students who were looking for technical training.

And the minister might also tell us if his department is using any of the facilities at St. Bride's College, Littledale, for technical training? There is a magnificent institution, beautiful facilities, absolutely fantastic, including, I believe, excellent recreational facilities, a swimming pool and so forth. Maybe the thing to do is for the government to try to make some kind of a deal with the proper authorities to take over St. Bride's College ·, to take over Littledale and turn it 100 per cent into an institute for technical training, I do not kngw if this is possible ar not.

I do not know what kind of an arrangement the government has at the moment with the board or with whomever is responsible for the maintenance and the operation of St. Bride's College at Littledale. Is it too far out of the way? Is it a good al~ernative? Because, Mr. Chairman, I cannot he~p but impressing upon the Committee - and I believe the minister will agree that there is a sense of urgency with regard to this matter­ that young men and young women today have come to the conclusion that you u621

May 4, 1976 Tape no. 2420 Page 4 - mw Mr. Neary. need technical training and vocational training. you need a trade in order to get a job 0 Somehow or other there are members of this House who doubt my word when I say that the reason the enrollment is declining at Memorial University, the reason the enrollaent is declining is because students have come to the realization that they were brainwashed and hoodw~nked into thinking that if you had a university education you were guaranteed to get a job, and that is not so. And today the trend has changed.

The trend has changed to trades training, technical training, and there is no doubt about it at all, Sir, that we need to expand our technical training facilities in this Province. and the sooner we do it the better, and we should try to find some alternative before this September, when we are going to have another crisis in the field of technical training, when we will have to turn away by the thousands, turn them away from the College of Trades and Technology. There must be an alternative. Ma~be the alternative. Sir, is to take the regional college in Corner Brook.

Because, Sir, the minister can tell me all he likes that, you know. there is a two or three year course there. I would say myself that the courses out there are absolutely u