I'\' ,v Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMB~Y Number 57 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY. MAY 18, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

'-fay 18, 1971. Tape 678 Page 1. Afternoon Session. The House met at 3:00 of the clock. Hr. Speaker in the Chair. PETITIONS: MR.NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to table a petition from the residents of the Southside Road. Some 275 have signed this petition. Of course had time permitted other signatures could have been affixed to this petition, but I felt that it was of sufficient urgency,as did the residents of the Southside Road,that they were good enough to bring it to my attention and it is my honour to bring it before the House at this time.

Now, Your Honour,the Southside Road, I think,as Your Honour will appreciate, is one of the olde~t roads in this Province. I say that without any fear of contradiction. The residents there have a long tradition and heritage. They have always been loyal and law-abiding, never giving a complaint or public outcry without good cause, always with sound reason.

I have had some familiarity with the area,not only because I am the member for the district but,RS I will menti~n,because I have been fairly close to the situation there aed the people,for most of my life. ~any of them, as I know, have demonstrated their loyalty to the King and Queen, their love for this country,as it was at that time, in the Great ~ars, ~hey gave their sons to do so~ some of them paid the Supreme Sacrifice. Many notable people have come out of the homes of the area and have lived there. Your petitioners,~r.

Speaker, proudly point out that the Rouse where, as a matter of fact,the hon. the Premier once lived,still stands, is one of the places that could be ~.ffected hy the road project that is now frequently in the news. I refer to the arterial road. There are many other names,of course, notable names, on the Southside Road. I could list them at some length. I will just mention some that come to mind at this moment, such as the Bakers, Horans, as they were when I was on the Southside, now they are called the"tto-rans I understand. I know that many citizens of St. John's and throuchout the l'rovince will know Mr.

Tom Ho-ran, who 1 I believe,may be in the visitors' 3942

Hay lR, 1971. Tape 678. Page 2. Afternoon Session. gollcry. Ile is in the visitors'~allery this afternoon. The Walshs are over there, Holdens, ~oseworthys, Shorts, O'Neils, there were the nilloRs, many many more that I can think of, too numerous to list. People of the Southside Road have always realized the inevitability of progress. They are not people who are simply opposed to something for the sake of Opposition. That is not the way they are made. They have encouraged progress.

In some instances that I can think of indeed they have initiated it. 1t took courape and initiative,in the very first place, if you will look at the history of the thing, to dig home sites out of the forbidding slopes of the rock-bound Southside Hills. But their affection for the area is all the more firmly and irrevocably intrenched because of it. While they have encouraged and nurtured progressive policies,they have been fully avare as well that all progress must be for people and with people and people only in mind. Unless people are helped by progress, Mr.

Speaker, unless their lot is male better for them, unless the way is open to higher standards and for that matter improved conditions, then the progress .in fact has no,meaning whatsoever. The price for it is too high. This is the situation that is now faced by the petitioners that I refer to today. They have no dispute, none at all about the need and desirability of the arterial road. They agP.ee that it should be buil~ because the arterial road is not for the residents of the Southside Road only. As a matter of fact they themselves may benefit least.

The arterial road is for a growing busy, thriving, col!lfflercial metropolis 1 which St, John's is fast becoming. That is the idea of the road. That is the idea behind the planning that will make it necessary for other roads to be built in this city. This is just the first of any number to keep the coffll!lercial traffic and the thousands of tons of freight that is constantly coming in to the city,moving freely. But they earnestly and sincerely, with respect and,I submit,humility,Mr. Speaker, ask for reconsideration of the proposed road or route from about Waterford Bridge to ihe harbour area.

There are real danr,ers to life and limb and property,if the highway is to be built to the rear of the Southside road homes. It would go, as I recall, from 3943

(' Hay 18, 1971. Tape 678 Page 3. Afternoon Session. approximately 600 feet,from the side of the road up the hill~at the maximum. Now it does not take too much study nor observation to realize the risks that are involved. Even a brief look in the area~ if taken from the point of view of the residents,will suffice. Your petitioners, Mr. Speaker, would like to stress the more obvious.

If heavy construction equipment is allowed to roam the Southside hills,behind the houses, digging into the earth, uprooting trees and other growth , that now fasten and hold the slopes together• uptuminR rocks and boulderR, the" "nt nnp ,c,in<>le resident will slPep secure. I said this at a recent public meeting, I have no reason to withdraw it today. There will be constant danger of huge boulders rc--lling on top of the homes and earth slides and flooding. Residents will hesitate even to sleep,for fear of being crushed in their beds.

In winter there will be continuous risk of avalanches, such as happened back in 1948, in~identa]ly, for the record, when a life was lost on the Southside road. Even after the road is completed,there -will be the daily, hourly, minute to minute risk of an accident that would propel a vehicle or vehicles into the homes below. Remember1Mr. Speaker, this is meant to be a fast-moving traffic arterial. It is feared too that the vibratton from the heavy traffic would be an annoyance of major proportions. No people could live, I feel, under this constant strain and stress.

If the road goes the way now proposed, it would be just as well to make up our minds to it now,to ask the people on the Southside road to pull up roots and move elsewhere. They will have no choice othe-.:vise. It must be widespread knowledge that the slopes behind the houses are touchv and they are very very risky. MR.SPEAKER: Order please. I have to point out to the hon. member that the rules pennit five minutes only for the presentation of a petition: MR.NOLAN: I appreciate your advice/Mr. Speaker, I will quickly come to an end on this matter.

The fact is that this is the problem that is very very,very important to the people of the Southside road. I know of no time when they have ever brought a petition to th,s House before. I do ask the 3944

May 18, 1971. Tape 678. Page 4. Afternoon Session. department concerned to give the utmost consideration to this, what I am saying.in effect,is there is sad neglect there. I am saying that I have just gone through, as the member for the area, some severe problems with construction on the Blackhead Road. I am not an engineer. I know the problems I have had and the people there have had in the last few years. I do not want to see the people of the Southside road exposed to this ltind of danger. So, I humbly su~gest that this petition be accepted and referred to the department to which it relat~s. MR.SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, I rise with great personal pleasure to support the prayer of the .petitioners toda~.- All the people who live in there, in the Waterford Valley,on the Southside Road are known to me. I lived for many years of my life,in the early part of my lif~on the Southside. I have relatives living there today. I know the place intimately and I have a deep sentimental interest in it. I heard today mentioned,by the hon. minister, the name of John Baker. I knew John Baker very well, he lived next door. His son Bill, his son Sam, his son John, his daughter Bride were children when I was a child. We grew up ~ogether.

The Sceviours just in the road from us. The great St. John family, Mr. St. John one ·of the greatest seal skinners in Newfoundland history. The Horans now known more generally as the Ho-rans. Mr. Ho-ran who is in the gallery today,around eighty. The father of twenty-three children one of whom is the great Magistrate Ho-ran in the District of St. Georges today. The Kings and the Heseworthys, great people never were there better people in Newfoundland. Now what is it their petition says? The Government have decided that there ought to be a new arterial road built into the City of St.

John's from the Trans-Canada Highway and from the City of St. John's out to the Trans­ Canada Highway, so as to take some of the heavy traffic, the burden of traffic, the danger, tazard of traffic off the present road that comes into the City. I am not sure in my own mind that this is the time to do it. It is going to cost anything from $8 to $10 million to do it. I believe, I can think, probably more than that;. I can think of many thin~s I would 3945

May 18, 1971. Tape 678. Page 5. Afternoon Session. rather see that money spent on but,if this is the plan,then the road will be built. What the people up there are afraid of is this; The Trans­ Canada Highway,in by the Fort Motel, just beyond the Fort Motel, just west of it, this road would leave the Trans-Canada and come on into St. John's. It will come down through the Waterford Valley. It would come down across the hills near the Waterford Bridge then, where would it go thenl There are two ways for it to go. One is down the side of the Southside hill,just up behind the houses.

The other way is the right way,it seems to me. That is this~ To come right down on the bed of the river, the Waterford River,which is one of the most polluted bits of water in this Province today. Put pipes down through there to carry the water, built the road over the watershed, over the - bed of the river, in doing it at the same time put in a water and sewer system. I say that the Govern­ ment of Newfoundland and the Government of Canada ought to be taken out and punished,if this road is built and they do not put water and sewer facilities in at the same time.

The people, all the way from Waterford Bridge down to Sime's Bridge, down to Riverhead, down to the old tressel,all along, those people, hundreds · of them, fine families have just as mU£h right to get water and sewerage as any other people in St. John's or anywhere else in Newfoundland. By building the road down through this way,both purposes can be accomplished at the same time, The day before yesterday, Monday morning, a helicopter left St John's to pick me up,at eight o'clock,at ~y home on ' the Roach's Line.

We were going to go out to Come by Chance and Sunnyside, On the way back I was going to come along the Trans-Canada turn-off Off" the new arterial road,because they are cutting the right-of-way,right now, come down that right-of-way, flying a couple of hundred feet, having a good view and come to Waterford Bridge,see where that road should go, ~omorrow morning the Minister and I are going to do that very thing. He is going to pick up the helicopter here, pick me up at eir,ht o'clock tomorrow morning, going to fly over Sunny­ side, We have a reason for roinp, to Sunnyside, ~n the way back we aTe gojing 3946

May 18, 1971. Tape 678. Page 6. Afternoon Session. to fly down. Mr. Speaker, the people of that great valley can count on their minister and member and count on me. We are both, we lived there most of our lives, we are with the people. In that valley we are going to do everything in our power to get the road built the right way, not only that,we are not going to be satisfied until there is water and sewerage at the same time, so I give the petition my hearty support. MR.~PEAKER: Order please. Visitors to the gallery will make no demonstration of any kind whatsoever, please. ~hat ts the rule of the House.

MR.MURPHY: Mr. Speaker,· after these two dramatic speeches, I would like very sincerely to lend my support to the prayer of the petition. I would first of all, I do not want to make a political issue out of this, but I would like to ask who's idea was it in the first place to buili this arterial road down the route it is going to take? I objected to it very strenuously, in the House ~ive or six weeks ago. But that is not solving the problem of these people who all their lives have lived in the area.I do not know them all by name but I know quite a number of them.

I could see the problem that woyld be faced there,to run a road directly behind themJ bearing in mind,Mr. Speaker, that at tremendous sacrifice that the people on Blackhead Road had to go through much the same type of excavation so on and so forth. These people have right,.Sir, It is all right to talk of progress. We muRt progress, but not when the rights of people are sacrificed. As one who, five years ago, went through much the same ordeal, if you like, with my constituents in St.

John's Centre, I can really appreciate,Sir, the mental anguish of a lot of those people, I can only ask~Sir, that,as to these two great speeches today and the helicopter flights and everythin~ else,! do not think it is absolutely necessary. But I believe and I sincerely hope that all this House, all the House, on both sides of this House,want to see justice done.Sir, to these people and,for one of the few times in this House,that the voices of the people be heard, the necessary action be taken. MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise in support of the petition also.

We know that the petition has the unanimous suprort of the House. 3947

May 18, 1971. Tape 678. Page 7, Afternoon Session. I think,Mr. Speaker, that there is no question there is going to be an arterial road from the Trans-Canada Hirhway into the south part of the city of St. John's. We know that because the first contract for construction of part of that road has been let, that is $7.297,000.(seven million two hundred and ninety-seven thousand dollar contract) awarded to McNamara Construction.

I am glad to see that the Government has apparently had a change of heart as to where the road is going to go when the first contract is completed, because we have to remember,rfr, Speaker, that the planning for this road has been done by the Provincial Department of Highways, although the money to finance it is coming under the DREE programme, primarily the Government of Canada, I notice that the Premier said,when he was speaking a few moments ago,that if this is the plan, that is,if it is the plan that the road go behind the houses on the Southside Road,_ he would do his best to see it is changed, Well, it is the Premier and the Government who can change it.Mr, Speaker, it is entirely within their hands, It is entirely a matter of their responsibility.

The plan is their plan. The contract was•let by. them and the ~inister of Regional and Economic Expansion. It was announced by the Community and Social Development Minister and by Mr. Marchand,together, So, the Government can have the plan changed. we take it,from what the Premier said,that the plan will be changed. There is one thing about it that this points up and that is the lack of communication between the Government or agencies of the Government and the people that they are going to affect when work is undertaken.

Why it was that the residents of the Southside Road only learned a few weeks ago that this road was going to go behind their houses on the Southside Road,baffled me. One would think that they would have been consulted somewhere in the p!anning stage,before this had gotten that far. So, the plan can be changed by the Government, The Premier has indicated that the plan is going to be changed• This is a matter solely within provincial jurisd~ction. ~!though the money will come from the Government of Ottawa. The Government can change the plan, the Government said they will chan~e the plan. That is the sensible 3948

May 18. 1971. Tape 678. Pap.e 8. Afternoon Session. thing. Anybody who looks at the Southside Hills cari see you cannot risk putting a road up behind those houses.with the tremendous fall down the Southside Hills 1 the trouble that would create. The petition is a good one and we are glad to make this support of the House unanimous. Notice of Motion: HR.SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker. I give notice that I will on tomorrow beg leave to introduce a Bill. "An Act !urther To Amend The Election Act. 1954." "A Bill. "An Act Further To Amend The Local Government Act, 1966," A Bill.

"An Act Further To Amend The Local Government Elections Act. 1965." A Bill, "An Act Farther To Amend The City of St. John's Act." MR.MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following motioa~;

WHEREAS the Fishery is the basic most important natural resource of the Province of Newfoundland; AND

WHEREAS the Fishing Industry has experienced grave ~nd serious problems which have become critically aggravated over the past decade by reason of depletiou of stocks caused primarily bJ the massive catches taken from time to tJme in the North Atlantic b~ ocean going vessels of foreign nations; AND

WHEREAS the inshore fishermen of this Province have particularly suffered by reason of apparent over-fishing in the North Atlantic; AND

WHEREAS the Prime Minister of our Nation. the Right Honourable Pierre Elliot Trudeau, is presently making a state visit to Russia fo~ the expressed purpose, amongst other things, of discussing with Russian Leaders problems of mutual concern to Canada and Russia; AND

WHEREAS it is vital to the interest of Newfound­ land and particularly to the welfare of its inshore fishermen that immediate steps be taken to conserve the fishery in the North Atlantic; AND WHF.~ERS it would appear that effective steps towards improvement of the fishery could be realized by the Prime Minister discussing directly with Soviet Premier, Alexei Kosygin. or Communist Party Leader, Leonid Brezhnev. or both of them the problems experienced by the fishermen on the east coast ~f Canada and in particular depletion of fish stocks in the North Atlantic; AND WHEP.EAS the Members of Parli~ment for Newfoundland have initiated representations to 3949

May 18, 1971. Tape 678 Pape 9. Afternoon Session. the Prime Minister concerning the matters herein resolved; AND

WHEREAS it is desirous that all the elected ~embers of the people of Newfoundland join with Newfoundland's representatives in the House of Commons in urging the Prime Minister of our Nation to take up with the Leaders of the Russian peoples matters herein resolved; THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this House of Assembly for the Province of Newfoundland hereby expresses its strong desire that Prime Minister, Pierre Elliot Trudeau, discuss with Russian Leaders the grave problems experienced by fishermen on the east coast of Canada and particularly the depletion of fish stocks in the North Atlantic and that the said Prime Minister initiate meaningful discussions with a view to conserving all species of fish in the North Atlantic in order to better assure the future of the fishing industry in this Province and particularly the inshore fishing industry; AND BE IT FURTHER RESOL~ED that this House of Assembly urges the Prime Minister of Canada to invite Russia to join with Canada in convening an International Conference for Conservation of Fisheries in the North Atlantic comprising all Nations utilizing the fisheries of the North Atlantic Ocean and that such Conference be held as soon as possible and, if expedient to the Nations concerned, be held in the ancient seaport of St.

John's; AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this House of Assembly directs that the contents of this resolution be communicated forthwith by telegram or other wise to the Honourable Prime Minister while he is still visiting the U.S.S.R. and opportunity exists to take up the matters se~ forth herein with the said Leaders of the Russian peoples. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR.MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to direct a question to the hon. minister of Mines, Agriculture & Resources, re, as I understand,grants of some form on Bell Island for cattle raising and this type of thin~.

I understand Sir, that these cheques are being passed out by the Mayor of Bell Island,in the Town Office over there. I wonder has the minister any comment to make, or any information on this matter. MR.CALLAHAN: I do not know precisely what the hon. ~entleman refers to 3950

May 18, 1971. Tap.e 678 Page 10. Afternoon Session. Mr. Speaker, but we may recall,some fo,ir weel:cs ·ago I believe, I announced in this House the Board of Trustees have been established on Bell Island to administer a community fund derived from the further disposal of assets of the former Dosco operation at Bell Island. This is the only possible, (I do not know how to relate to the question 1 Mr. Speaker, because it is a curious kind of question) this :i.s the only possible operation that could have any reference to what the hon. gentleman has · raise .cl. •• J,fR.MtJRPlIY: Mr.

Speaker, just a supplf!l!lentary ques.tion? How are these grants or loans or whatever it is dispersed and how are applications received, received from the minister or - MR.CALLAHAN: I do not know how much clearer I can make it,Mr. Speaker, there is a . Boar-d of Trustees appointed by the conm1,111ity - ORnERS.OF THE DAY: COMMITTEE OF S'ITPPLY:. 3951

May lRth, 1971 Tape 679(Afternoon) JM - 1 MR. CIIAlRMAN: Order! ll~.1:\ding Xl - Social Services and Rehabilitation; MR. NF.ARV: Mr.

Chain:tan, to get into the nuts and bolts of the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation perhaps I could inform the Committee that the number of citizens receivin~ social assistance,in the fiscal year 1970-71,varied only slightly from the preceedin~ years, for both those who are medically certified,incapable of work,and those who are physically able to work but have been unable to find employment throu~h either their own efforts or those of the existinr. private or public agencies. I might point out also, Mr.

Chairman, that within our present restricted resources we have been able to increase social assistance benefits in some respects. For example, food for those on short-term assistance and a more generous policy concerning earnings for this same group, increased fuel allowances for invalid unemployables and implementation of the measures affecting the elderly citizen announced at the Provincial Development Conference in February. Any dramatic improvements in benefits, Mr.

Chairman, without heavy increases in provincial t,.altation will have to await the outcome of discussions in revamping the terms of the Federal-Provincial Cost Sharing Formulas of the Canada Assistance Plan,which I hope to be able to report to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador followinr, the conference of Provincial Ministers of Welfare pre~ently rescheduled for June 7 and 8,just three weeks away. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to see a lively discussion on my estimates and lots of questions and I will try to provide the Colfflltittee with all the information that I can, But let us have all kinds of questions and I will see if I can provide the answers, MR. HICKMAN: Will the hon. Minister make a firm committment now before we start? ~-~~~Y: Mr, Ch~iTT!lan, I will make a firm committment that I will provide all the information I can and if we can finish the estimates of my department before six o'clock, before we arise for dinner,! will sav that we have done 3952

~ay 18, 1971, Tape 679, Pa~e 2 -- apb Afternoon a fine afternoon's work. MR. HICKEY: I amp.lad to see that the minister invites some questions. I hope that we can keep him haopy and ~o along with what he suggests, There are a number of thin~s I would like to discuss before getting into the estimates, and I assume that this would be the proper place to do it. This is the proper headinr.. First of all, it is interesting to hear the minister inform the House that the difference in the figures,the past year versus the one previous,were more or less insi~nificant. It is hard to understand,Mr.

Chairman,how this can be, when the unemployment rate during the past year has been worse than it has ever been before. There are a couple of answers-,! sugp.est, that possibly would indicate why there is not the kind of increase in welfare that one would expect. For example: retraining progr81!1J11e is one. A number of people Mr. ChAinnan, who are taking the retraining ~rogramme in various trades. People attendin~ trades collepes and various vocational schools, all of those people, Sir, while they are not em~loyed in industry as such, are not and do not come under the headin~ of welfare assistance.

I su~gest that a good many of them, if they were not in traininr.,would have no alternative but to apply for and receive assistance from the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation. So, Mr. Chairman, the fact that there has not been a ~reat increase in the nUl!l~er of recipients durinr, the past year, certainly does not indicate that we are in ~ood shape employmentwise. It certainly does not indicate, Mr. Chairman, that the whole ~roblem of welfare,in tenns of the employables,has been solved. It would be false security,Mr.

Chairman, for the people of this Province ancl the members of this House, to assume that because there has Heen such a little difference in those fi~res, that this is an accurate account or an accurate indication of the ~eneral economy of the Province. One wonders, Mr. Chairman. where it is all J?OinJ!' to end. We hear that the answer to the hip.h risinJ!' cost of welfare is jobs. I do not think anyone can deny that. t·!e hear r.overn~ent ~uotinr. and oraisinr,,to no end, our trades coller.e and trade schools. One cannot arr.ue too much with that. The alarminp part of the whole 3953

Mnv IR, 1971. Tare 679, Par.e 3 -- apb Afternoon thin~ is, Mr. Chairman, where those people are p.oing to P-O when they are finished their training. When they come out of the Colle~e of Trades and Technolor.y, and the various trades and vocational schools, where do they go? Under a cost sh~rinr, arrangement, the Government of Canada and the Government of this Province are payinp. for their training. Under the Manpower Plan, most of those people or a ~ood many of them are receivinp. salaries the equivalent to and in some instances higher than they were retting in a rep.ular 1ob. Now, Mr.

Chairman, one does not quarrel with the fact that those salaries are reasonably hir.h. Certainly, one does not quarrel with a person obtainin~ a weekly allowance, be it from a position or be it from training in one of those schools or collep.es. The more they can get the better, but ·, the question is Sir, what is p.oinr to happen to them when they finish their course? In too many cases Mr.

Chairman, at least I have found, some of those people p.raduate or are given a certificate, and they find themselves forced to take positions which do not pay them as much as they received while they were attendinp. colle~e or vocational school. This, Mr. Chairman, must obviously be very frustrating to so~eone who, for example, received ninety dollars ~r ninety-five dollars a week while attending a vocational school. They come out of that school,with a certificate, and if they are lucky enough to obtain a job, end ~p workinr, for seventy or seventy-five dollars a week.

They must obviously ask themselves what they accol!IJ)lished for that eight or nine months that they attended that school, or .six months, whatever the term that ;h~y were there. I feel that this is a problem for the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation. While there may be other ap.encies, other departments involved, it is certainly a problem that the department and the Government in p,eneral must come to prins with. F.or, ~s I pointed out, but for those prop.rar.unes A p.reat number of those people would have the unfortunate experience of bein~ on welfare. Cartainly,Mr.

Chairman, no Newfoundland, no matter where he is, no matter what his academic standin~ is, no Newfoundlander looks forwarrl to beinr, in ~ecei~t of ~ssistance from the Government,under the welfare 3954

May 18, 1g11, Tape 679, Par.e 4 -- apb Afternoon. Mr. ChairMan, I hope to make some comments on different aspects of the departMent. I hope that l can do so under this vote, because I feel that they cover a wide ranJ!:e of topics. I think that this is the proper vote to make them under. I for one, rep:ret that I am not able to stand here today and afford the hon. minister the remarks, the same remarks that I made in this House approxil'lately a year ap,o, or somethinP. more than that. The minister Mr. Chairman, started out well I thoup.:ht. I was looking for great things from him.

I regret very much that I have been disnppointed . . Many of our citizens, who have the unfortunate experience of cominp. in contact with his department, feel · the Sllme way. He started out well as I have said. I was one of the first, ~r. Chairman, to offer my congratulations to him when he became minister, and also one of the first~- Chairman, to compliment him when he offered suggestions for changes in policy and gave a general indication that there would be new things in that department. There is no Department of Government, Mr.

Chairman, l!IOre important • . in my view, than the department for which the minister is responsible. We mi~ht say that the Department of Economic Development is an important aspect of Government. Certainly it is, as well as all the other departments. ThiEdepartment, Mr. Chairman, deals with the greatest resource of any country or any Province, the people themselves. It is this department,Mr. Chairman, that the people of our Province have to look to and depend upon when they are in need. What can be more iMportant to a pe~son ~than need? What can be more important to a person than actual bread and butter?

We ta.lk about •bread and butter~issues. ~r. Chairman, we are certainly talkin~ about them today. One cannot p,et closer to the most imnortant thinrs that effect all our people, than the caring for of those people who are,through no fault of their own, out of eMplo)'l'lent, cannot be gainfully employed and, conseouently cannot support their families. Too ~any cases tir. Chairman, of people who come to this department.where they have not heen treated fair and just. I am not su~resting that they be 3955

Hny 18, 1971, Tape ~79, Page 5 -- apb Afternoon welcoMed with open arms. I am not suggesting that we advertise for people to come to us for assistance, but 1 am suggesting,Mr. Chairman, that they be treated in a manner which guarantees some level of dignity to those who come to that department for assistance. I am not so sure,Sir, that this attitude always prevails. In fact, Mr. Chairman, according to various cases that I have come in contact with, listening to various reports from people, one is led t• believe that in too many instances the attitude of this department is one of arrogance.

I do not know who is responsib~e for it. I should say~ I know who is responsible for it but I do not know who is to blame. I am not blaming the hon. minister. It would be most unfair for me to blame him.who sits in the House., and who sits in his office in this building, . He is responsible for i~Mr. Chairman, because, for no other reason than the fact that he is minister of that department.

Whether he has failed to instill in his workers the idea that when assistance is r,ranted from this departrnent#it does not come out of that persons ~ocket, lt does not come out of the minister's pocket, it comes out of the taxpayers pocket, and except in very, very few cases Mr. Chairman, I doubt if there are any, unless those who have been born sick or who have never struck a "tap" in their life, who have never worked atany time, it comes out of their very own pockets. When they were employed they contributed by way of tax in its many forms. It is rather unfortunate Mr.

Chairman, and it is a bit alarming to me that those very citizens who worked so hard to earn a livl:lhood . and who,through no fault of their own,find themselves unemployed, should be treated with some kind of arrogance or indifference.but in too many cases they are. I am not sure,Sir, that the minister has adopted a r~P,ht course in his attempt to encoura~e initiative among those unfortunate recipients of .able­ bodied assistance.

There is the case which we read about recently,of the fisherman who wanted to tnkc his Rons and teach them how to fish, only to he told by the w~lfare officer that if he di~, his allowance would he cut. He anparently .• ·' . , ... 3956

M~y 18, 1971, Tape 679, Pape 6 -- apb Afternoon. MR. NF.ARV: Why was he ~ettin~ an allowance in the first place? !:fB_-_)!_!CKEV: Why was he ~ettinp. it? MR._ NF.~V: Why? MR. HICKEY: ~r. Chainnan, I do not know why he was gettin~ it. I do not care why he was r,ettin~ it. ~. NEARY: That is exactly the point. He was getting it because he was medically unfit to do work of any kind. ~~:!.. HICJCEY: Mr. ChaiTI!lan, I know a lot of people who are medically unfit in the strict sense of th~ word. 'HR. NEARY: I know a lot of people who are mentally unfit also. MR. HICtt..EY: Who are what? MR. NEARY: Mentally unfit. MR.

HICKEY: WE will get to that subject. I know just what the minister is referring to, and we will get to that subject a little later on - do not ever worry about that. I know a lot of people,Mr. Chairman, who are medically unfit, who are quite capable of sitting and starting u~ and steering a boat while t~eir two sons fish. MR. NEARY: Come on now! MR. HICKEY: Never mind, "come on noy." fofR. NEARY: Do not be so hypocritical. MR. HICKEY: I am not being hypocritical at all. I am being quite factual. I am being quite realistic.

Has the minister the gall to sit here or stand here and tell us that,because someone is incapacitated, because someone cannot ~o out and di~ down with a pick and shovel.that he cannot sit in a boat and steer a boat while his n.•o sons fish? Is he so raaive as to believe that? MR. NEARY: School boys. ~- HICKEY: School boys? It does not make any difference. MR. NEARY: There is nothin~ in this world to stop him from going out, f1rovirl1nr, he does not sell the fish and compete with the taxpayers .• MR. Hin:f:Y: noes it make ~ny difference Mr. Chairman?

Is that not what the hon. minister should l-c encouraring, that that man tal-:e his sons out and show,; 3957

May 18, 1971, Tape 679, Pa~e 7 -- apb Afternoon them how to work. ~- NEARY: No, of course not. MR. HICKEY: No, of course not. No, keep our people on handouts. Keep the!!!. in a state where they owe us something, so that when the time comes to vote they will know how to vote. Keep them in this state. !'fR. NE~RY: The hon. member better stick to real estate or whatever it is he is selling, because he does not know what he is talking about. MR. HICKEY: p.o into. MR. NEARY: MR. HICKEY:· I can manage,Mr. Chairman, in whatever field of endeavour I Anythin~ at all.

I have done quite well in the Department of Welfare and the hon. minister knows that but he is not man enough to say so outside this House. MR. NEARY: Want me to produce your file? MR. HICKEY: Produce it. I challenge him to produce it now, and bring those three people into the Chal'lber. Ml{. NEARY: It would not be 'fair to the hon. member. MR. HICKEY: It would not be fair to the hon. minister. It would not be fair to him. Bring it. I call your bluff. MR. NEARY: Do not dare me. MR. HICKEY: I call your bluff. I am daring you, and I will insist on it_, until those estimates are through, that you produce that file.

I do not kno~ what you think you have in that file,Mr. M~nister, but you have nothing only your dirty mind. ~- NEARY: Let us get on with the business now. MR. HICKEY: I will get on with it, and I will produce some letters this afternoon to prove to this House just what the hon. minister is. HR. NEARY: The hon. me~her. MR. HICKEY: Just what he is capahle of. ~- CRO~lHE: l.a'l' it on. MR. JlICK'f:Y: When he is backed into a corner,~r. Chairman, when he is backed into a corner - they say, when you back a rat in a corner he ~oes for your 3958

May 18, 1971, Ta~e 679, Pap.e 8 -- aph Afternoon. jugular vein. Well I do not know ••• MR. NEARY: The hon. member should know all about rats. MR. HICKF.Y: I am not going to stand here and refer to the hon. minister as that, because, I have more manners than that. I was raised a little differently than that, but I will draw a comparison. The hon. minister was on very dangerous ground when he was backed in the corner on the issue of the girls' home, and he came out with his insinuations, his vile renarks about ••• ~. NEARY: Watch your b],ood pressure. MR. HICKEY: Psychiatric assessment.

Let me tell the hon. minister something. He does not have to worry about me, because I went before a psychiatrist when I was hired by the Department of Welfare. That is mre than the hon. minister has done yet. If he says 1 in this House, that he knows some people who mi~ht be suffering from some kind of mental retardation, he must be talking about himself, because he has not gone through the assessment that I went through. MR. NEARY: 1'1" .. HICKEY: This is awful stuff 1Mr. Chairman. I came through,Mr. Chairman, with flying colours~thank God!

The hon. minister has not gone through that yet and I doubt very much if he would pass it if he did, because, there are certain qualities that are required by a persons who works in a Department of Welfare. A number of qualities • One of them,Mr. Chairman, one very important quality is:_ how one reacts under pressure, that he does not ~o off half-cockecl and make all kinds of irresponsible statements, that he does not go off and attack someones character or employment record, :t'hat he does not get so excited that he cannot read black and white. MR. NE~RY: The hon. member is becoming paranoiacal. MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Chairl'lan, the hon. minister may not know it, but he provided the openinr, for SOfflethinp. which he might yet regret. MR. NF.ARY: Rir.ht! MR. RICKEY: I am not petty. If I could not stand the heat. I would get out of the fire. I could not care less what the hon. minister savs ahottt me 3959

H3y IR, 1971. Tape 679, PARC 9 -- apb Afternoon. poU tically. ~-·-.!'1-~~Y-=- The heat is on now. 1-fR. flI<_:!(r.Y_:. When the hon . minister is ~oin~ to attack T!lY employment records, that is another matter. - Mow, let him l)roduce that i;?reat file that he has somethin~ in. Let him produce it. His bluff is called again . 3960

May 18, 1971 Tape no. 680 Page 1 Mr. Hickey. referred to him outside this House as being a liar. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! MR. HICKEY: Hoping that he would take me to court. MR. NEARY: Sit down when the Chairman calls you to order. .Jl:R, CHAIRMAN: Order please! We are talW.ng money here. I think we are a little far away from the topic of the administration of the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation. HR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, now I am going to try real hard to keep right on the subject I am talking about the hon. the minister and the vote which pays the hon. minister's salary.

When 1 am finished, Mr. Chairman, 1 propose to move a motion,seconded by the member for St. John's West,that the minister's salary be reduced to $.98. That is $.02 below the amount that is normally used. So as far as 1 am concerned. Sir, 1 said that 1 would deal with a number of topics this afternoon surrounding the hon. minister's office, and that is just what I am doing. 1 only repeat what I repeated outside. As 1 said 1 Mr. Chairman, I did_ not say the hon. minister then laid any charges against me. 1 was hoping he would. He knew better because he knew that I he did not have a leg to stand on.

He knew why he made the statements he made, if he ever knows. He -.new because he was back in the corner and the only thing he could cpme up with was to attack me personally. I welcome criticism, Mr. Chairman, politically, seven days and seven nights of the week. I will not stoop so low as to attack any member of this House.personally. I would like to see the hon. gentleman who has all the virtue I do not know where he is. I would like to see the hon. gentleman who is perfect. I would like to know where he is. We all had better do a little bit of thinking before we attack any one personally.

There is no one, but no one, who cannot have something thrown back by way of mud. I do not intend, Mr. Chairman 1 to stoop so low. I will let the people of this Province,who listened to the hon. minister from the West Coast, when he made his vile· statements about me, I will let them decide. Yes, he can sit over there and grin. Of what mentality one must be to be 3961

May 18, 1971 Mr. Hickey. Tape no 680 - able to sit down, Mr. Chairman, and grin. Page 2 MR.. CHAIRMA..~: Order please! Now I think I should point out that a debate is not supposed to get down to a personal level. The topic before the committee this afternoon is the administration of the mi~ister's department. HR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, do I have a right to defend myself? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! MR. WICKEY: The hon. minister did. He talks about~ file that he has. I asked him to bring it here. Is he going to bring it or is ·he going to get up now and retract that statement? MR. NEARY: MR. HICKEY: nonsense?

The hon. gentleman has paranoia. Do you hear the dirt qain? Do you hear this stupid,silly Do I have to take this kind of thing? Is he going to retract those statements or am I going to be given the opportunity to defend myself? He does not have to take them back,if he does not want to. I can defend myself. I have lots of information on which to defend myself. Hr. Chairman, one of the · reasons why I intend to move my motion to reduce the minister's salary is based on his performance insofar as the Girls' Home is concerned,in handling that situation.

Did he come out and give the public the information he had ought to? N~, of course not. Did he admit that there were cells in that building? No, he did not. He did not know anything about it. But yet he could stand in this House and brag about how many times he has visited that institution. Well,Mr. Chairman, he must never have gone in the basement. When one inspects the building the ~al thing is to go in the basement or wherever the furnance is that heats that building, because I would suggest that that ~s a rather important part of that building. The hon. minister did not go there.

He did not know there were cells in that home. He made a _ feeble attempt to justify. I do not know who or what he was trying to justify · because he had only taken over the department a little while before. He personally could not have been held responsible 3962

May 18, 1971 tape no, 680 Page 3 Hr. Hickey, for too much. But no that was the wrong information to give the public. Those were the facts, The hon, minister, Mr. Chairman, was asked to table the report that was made by Mr. McGrath. What did he table? He tabled a report that contained some suggestions. Did he table the report that was compiled by Mr. Roberts of his department, the col!lllittee that was set up? I suggest he did not. In that report, Mr, Chairman, that is where one finds it all out. That is where the chicken come home to roost 1 in that report. We do not see that#do we?

Any time I open my mouth about it,as being the one responsible for welfare on this side of the House,what do 1 get? I am reminded of a file, What low-down dirty politics! I have never heard tell of the like, It would be better,Mr, Chair:man,for the hon, minister to get on with his work, Be has a big job to do that he cannot do.

Be has not got the slightest inkling of doing or performing some of those duties of a welfare minister yet h.? has the gall and the nerve ,when someone criticizes constructively, he has the gall to attack tbem personally, 1 heard the statement made one time that "one laboured for a mountain and brought forth a 1110use. That is a pretty good description ,. of what the minister brought forth when he started digging on me, Another thing,Mr, Chairman - I suggest,Mr.

Chairman,that this House, over and above any fe\11 that might exist between the hon. minister and 1 ~ could not aare less about that because that does not mean two pennies,but what is bigger than both him and me and what is more im­ portant is that he and 1, and a thousand more like us, are the staff work­ ing ir. that depaTtment. . 1 can tell the hon, minister right now that the morale of his department is at an all-time low, MK, NEARY: Where would that be~at the Children's Home or •• ? 3963

May 18, 1971 Tape no. 680 Page 4 MR. HICKEY: No not the Children's Heme. It is not at the Children's Home. It is the people who are out in the field doing the work, because they do not know what day the hon. minister is going to attack them personally and tell a bunch of untruth and make a bunch of false statements. Too many of those people 1 Mr. Chainnan,are well aware of my term of duty with that department. They are well aware of how I left that department and they are well aware of the fact that I was not asked to resign,w~ich the minister - they are also well aware Mr.

Chairman that when proof was offered by way of letters, two letters signed by two different people, one of whom was still an employee of the minister, a senior official of his department, another is the deputy minister who instructed another official to write that letter to me. What did the hon. minister say about that, when he was cornered again,when those letters were produced? He made a brilliant statement,Mr. Chairman,that letters of this type were customary. In other words those officials of his department were just hypocrites, dishonest hypocrites. That is what the minister said, in so many words.

Is th~t not a lovely department to work for,where the min~er says that? I do not know what the hon. minister thinks he has. But I know a number of things he does not have. I will make a bargain with him. If he will stop spreading his stories that are unfounded, such as my having to resign from the Department of Welfare . and those vicious statements about me. I will stop telling the truth about him. He has that bargain. The minute he stops that,I will stop telling the truth about him. If I were he , Hr. Chairman, I would buy that bargain.because he cannot go wrong. MR. NEARY The hon. member ••• MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Chairman,the hon. minister may take this very lightly. I can assure him that I have not lost any loyalty to the Department of Welfare. He need never doubt about that. When aomebody spends five years in the Department of Welfare,Mr. Chairman, there are a number of things that rub off. 3964

May 18, 1971 Tape no. 680 Page 5 Mr. Hickey. One of them is concern for people who work in that department as well as the people who are assisted by that department. It is with no pride that l stand here today and tell the hon. the minister that no matter what hP has done to improve the welfare programme in this Province. that he has instilled there into ,the minds of some of his staff the like of which is unbelievable. AN HON. MEMBER: A dictator. MR. HICKEY: No not a dictator. A dictator is much more honourable than that which the minister has stooped to.

When someone starts in and digs back on somebody 1 because they criticized him ,hoping to come up with something and comes up with nothing but still makes vicious statements, just how low can one go? How low can they get? What security is there in a department 1 Mr. Chairman,where there is a gentleman operating under those conditions? What security is there? Is this the kind of relationship that should exist between minister and his staff? Is this the kind of relationship that brings out the best of people in the performance cf their . duties?

There is no better case in point,is there,than t~e adoption case that l brought up in this House while the minister was away. It was unfortunate that he was out of the house at that time or he might have saved his department another little bit of embarrassment. When one of the .Assistant- deputy ministers informed the Minister of Health, who was filling in for him,that that lady had been discouraged from applying for that child, a complete untruth. It was a complete untruth and I say it as long as I have a breath to draw,because,Mr. Chairman,! know from where l speak.

The hon. minister is probably gone to get some information. This is one way to get it. You turn on the heat. There is not any doubt,Mr. Chairman, no doubt at all because I would not need any information passed on to me from this lady or some clergymen · 3965

May 4, 1971 Tape no. 680 Page 6 HR. HJCKEY. 0 r other interested parties. I happen to know enough about the adoption • programmes to know that when someone advances,from the time they make application up unto a time where reports are made on borne conditions, where medical certificates are obtained, I know enough,Mr. Chairman, to know that those people could not have done that on their own without being requested to do so by the officials of the minister's department. They were requested to do so. Does the minister want me to tell him who they are? The Welfare Officer in Lewisporte is one.

No, I am not going to use any names, Mr. Chairman. There are two, a male and female. MR.· NEARY: Do you knew their names? MR. HICKEY: Yes, I know their names. So does he know their names. Is the minis~er going to tell me ••• ? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! It is not customary to make allegations in couanittee or in the House against persons who are not here to defend themselves. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate Your Honour's ruling and, if I may,· . I might just explain. I am not making any allegations against those people at all. Those two people were doing their job.

The allegations and charges that I am making are against the minister,who is responsible for the department,and some of his officials. If he wishes to bring the officials, the gentlemen who gave the hon. Minister of:.Health that information, here, I will tell him. One particular instance, Mr. Chairman, was that that family were requested to obtain a medical certificate.~ inquiry was made as to whether or not they had had their medical.

Those people were contacted by this lady and her husband and they were appalled at the statement,that emanated from this House,to the effect that they had been discouraged right from the start from making application for that child. Mr. Chairman, this is what I mean when 3966

Hay 181 1971 Hr, Hickey. - Tape no, 680 Page 7 I say that the heat was turned on. It is very strange that three weeks ago, two weeks ago, the people concerned were quite prepared to substantiate that woman's claim;that had been suggested to her. It had been suggested to her that she make application for that childi Within the last week, Mr. Chairman,this one particular person is not prepared to do anything like that at all, How do I know this? Mr. Chairman, I did not come down stairs yesterday, Surely the hon minister does not expect me to tell him.

MR, NEARY: He has been going around trying to pump confidential information out of social workers? Is this his technique? MR. HICKEY: Does the hon. minister wish to make a charge? Is that all the faith the hon. minister has in his employees? MR. NEARY: The hon. member is the one who made the statement. MR, HICKEY: Ah, Mr. Chairman, here we are getting it again. Now we are having a sample, Now we are getting the proof of what the minister thinks about his employees. MR. NEARY: Oh! come on • • MR. HICKEY: Pumping information from them. MR. NEARY: The hon. member knows ... _!IR.

HICKEY: Does the hon. minister wish to say that that is the type of employee he has got doing social workl HR. NEARY: I will answer the hon. member in a minute. MR. HICKEY: I have more regard for those people who work in that departmeet, Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: MR. HICKEY: HR. NEARY: tell you that. _MR. HICKEY: to hear that. MR. NEARY: Have what? I have a more high regard than he has. They do not have a very high regard for the hon. member,! can Oh, is that right now! Well that is shocking. I am sorry He has lost his spies. all except one. 3967

May 18, 1971 Tape no. 680 MR, NEARY: He still has one spy. MR, HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, the Gestapo got nothing at all on him. MR. REARY: That is right! Page 8 MR. HICKEY: The minister can even say that I have "a spy." In all the people who work in the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation, he can say that I have one spy left, MR. NEARY: Yes, one. MR. HICKEY: Is that not something? MR. NEARY: One. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman might we get a few more fellows in and sit down here so we can conduct the business of the House? What was that Mr. Chairman? I do not care who wishes to listen to me.

I could not care less. The rule of the House is that there be a quorum or we do not dis0ass business,and that is it. I am the last in the world to break rules. Now1Mr. Chairman 1 let me makP. this abundantly clear: I do not go to any 'Id.fare official trying to pump any news,because I have muue of a regard for all of them, That is more than I can say for the hon. minister. MR. NEARY: _MR. HICKEY: They would not give it to the hon. member anyway. They work for him. The hon. minister - it is just too bad, Mr. Chairman.

It is pitiful that there is not some way for the hon. minister to determine the degree of popularity that he has among his staff. It is just too bad because,if he did or if he could determine that, what a rude awakening he would get. No, Mr. Chaifllan, my information does not come from social workers. But it comes from a reliable source. MR. REARY: Right! MR. HICKEY: I still have enough of faith in human nature, humanity,not to think that everybody just makes statements which are unfounded, untrue • People in question,Mr.

Chairman, would the hon. minister just admit this much,that any parent or parents, as it applies in this case, two people, certainly who cannd: be millionaires, would incur•a bill of some $700 for phone services. Will 3968

May 18, 1971 Hr. Hickey Tape no. 680 Page 9 he tell me that those people do not believe they were wronged? Will he tell me that those people feel they got justice from his department? Would they embark upon that kind of a campaign? They came in or at least one of them came in and saw the zn. minister,. last week. He knows that. I know it. Did I have to get that from a social worker too? Hogwash, Mr. Chairman! HK. NEARY: This is powerful stuff.Mr. Chairman. MR. HICKEY: I will never stand here,Mr.

Chairman,and have their names or the reputation of those people who work in that department tarnished by ·:a. suggestion from the hon. minister, I will not stand for it. If he wants to tarnish those people, their reputations, that is up to him. He has already done it with some of his employees,so what is the difference? He has all but referred to two - two employees, one of whom,by the way,is his deputy minister. He has almost referred to him as a hypocrite. I would like to see the day,Mr. Chairman, when I would continue to work for a minister who took a slap at me like that.

But I am sure the bau. gentleman in question has his own reasons. He is dedicated to the cause. He is probably like a good many more who figure; well it will not be long now. Mr. Chairman, the hon. minister should use more of his energies in thinking up some kind of ways and means to encourage initiative among his recipients, his department,to find ways and means to help those people by some additional means than they are being assisted right now.

He should make a much stronger case than he is making to the people at the Federal level, with regards to freeing the money that comes to this Province under the Canada Assistance Plan,so that it can be used by his department in a manner which they·see fit and not in keeping with the rules that are laid down by the Federal Government. He should, Mr. Chairman,be co~ing up with some new ideas at the community level to help the people of this Province. He should be encouraging his staff 3969

Hay 18, 1971 Tape no. 680 Page Kr. Hickey and I make this as a •uggestion. Of course, at least for the present time,he will throw this down .the drain and say it is hogwash and maybe next month.s~time before the election, we are likely tQ hear an announceinent that it is already in effect. This is usWllly what happens. You make a suggestion, it is worthless. It is useless. It is foolishness. About six months later you find th1Jt lt becomes law or whatever necess .aey changes are involved have already been made. What the minister should be doing at the CQ'llmlunity leyel is instilling in his workers, his 10 3970

May 18, 1971 Tape 681 PK - l MR. HICKEY: employees, his social workers to get out in the various communities and encourage some kind of connnunity organization. Community organizations, Mr. Chairman, play a very important role in the Dep,rtment;of Welfare of all the other provinces. If there can be something accomplished by those people in other provinces, one · obviously have to raise the question as to why it will not work here. I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that if we had some kind of conununity organization at the community level, a lot of the problems, a number of the emergencies that come to the attention of the minister and his department, he would never heard tell of, they would be dealt with by the people at the community level. ~ut here again, he is not too interested in that. }faybe there is not too much mileage in that, politically~ but he is not going to get involved in that. Mr, Chairman, we have not heard anything about the recotTDnendation made by Mr.

McGrath and the committee which was set up last fall to investigate the situation at the Boys Home and Training School at Whitbourne, Pleasantville and the Girls Home, The minister S4id he wanted the press to layoff. Mr. Chairman, that is not where the problem lies. There is no reason in the world for the minister to blame anything that happened at those institutions on the press. If the minister would give,through the press, to the people of this Province,the straight facts of any situation, there would not be any problem.

In fact he might find people from all walks of life much more ready to come to his assistance with ideas, suggestions and maybe other types of help as well. But, no one is interested, Mr. Chairman, in getting tcxinvolved in a situation where the facts are just being covered up and closed, where the issue is just being smoothened out so that the real situation is not known. For example, one of the recommendations, Mr. Chairman, of Mr. McGrath is that the number of probation officers be doubled. Another one is to change the names of the institutions. I have not heard anything about this being done. Surely, Mr.

Chairman, this does not take si:i: montt.s I am sure . nobody 3971

May 18, 1971 Tape 681 PK - 2 MR. HICKF.Y: in his department·could come up with some kind of reasonable name for those institutions. MR. NEARY: Could the hon. member reco111111end some? MR. HICKEY: Oh, I could recommend a few, Mr. Chairman, but my recommendations and suggestions to the hon. minister were never adopted, you know, until six months later,and then we are told it is the new breed that are bringing in all those changes, all those benefits. It is never the Opposition, My goodness! Who would ever accept the suggestion from the Opposition? Now, Mr. Chairman, we are also told in this report, Mr.

Chairman, that the Home at Pleasantville is to be used for boys under fifteen. Would the minister tell.us, if that reconnnendation has been implemented yet? Or·that the girls from the Girls Home are attending co-educational classes? How about those things? The detention facilities,for use by police in juvenile cases be removed from Pleasantville. Mr. Chairman, I do not think the minister realizes how serious this whole problem is. His silence at least does not indicate it; that he realizes.

The question was asked during the present session, I believe, as to how many of those children had broken but or had escaped? I believe, Mr. Chairman, the figure was 485,over a period of ti~e, Of course. ~hat was over a period of five years. Four hundred and eighty-five, Mr. Chairman. Surely the minister cannot deny that a situation which results in 48O-odd boys and girls escaping from say, let us say three homes- AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. HICKEY: They just walk away. They leave without permission. Mr. Chairman, what were the two doing in the cells the night of the fire?

The hon. minister tells me he do not run jails. That sounds as much like a jail as I know of, the girls are barred behind bars. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. HICKEY: Ah, Mr. Chairman, according to reports that emanate from that home, if the right kind of atmosphere, if the right kind of direction ,-•ere given to those girls and those boys, there would not be as many of them leave, there would not be as many of them escape. They would not want to escape, because it would be drilled in their heads already,in the proper way, as to 3972

May 18, 1971 Tape 681 PK - 3 MR: HICKEY: why they are in there. MR. NEARY: Why are children running away from the home, of the fabulous businessmen, the millionaries, politicans, why are they running away from home, and taking to the open road? Could the hon. member explain that? MR. HICKEY: I could appreciate them running away from certain people, Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: Did you ever hear of transient youth? What is causing all of this? MR. HICKEY: We do not have 485. MR. SHALLWOOD: It is the Government of Newfoundland, that is who. MR.

NEARY: The hon. the minister causing all of this, all those kids · taking to the open roads? MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, I never hinted that the hon. minister cannot even understand plain English now. MR. NEARY: I understand it. MR. HICKEY: I have not known, No, Mr. Chairman, he cannot. He just cannot grasp even the slightest phrase C0111.Lng frOl!I this side of the House. I have I not said that the hon. minister is responsible for those 480-odd children. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, please? Is there anything in the rose that will make him talk a little faster?

I mean this is getting to be really quite unendurable. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, if the Premier does not like the speed at which I am going, he can leave. He can go down and speed his car. Go down and take your car and go out ninety miles an hour. Then come back,and you might be in a better mood. I am not going to hurry up, I am going to take my own darn time and I am going to speak the way I want to speak. MR. SMALLWOOD: The hon. gentleman is taking the House's time. MR. HICKEY: Well that is too bad, Mr. Chairman. MR. SHALLWOOD: Yes, that is right, too bad. MR.

HICKEY: Because last night I witnessed something that I never thought I 3973

May 18 1 1971 Tape 681 PK - 4 MR. HICKEY: would witness in this House. I am aware of the fact, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your reminding me, I am not going to get on to a debate which took place last night. I would not want to, I have no desire. But I am just going to speak now at a certain speed. MR. STRICKLAND: Slow down. MR. HICKEY: The day will never come, Mr. Chairman, the day will never come, Whoever likes to believe it or whoever does not, this is a free country. MR. NEARY: The hon. member should speak as fast as he drives. MR. HICKEY: Ah, well, well, a new switch. MR. SMALLWOOD: I do not think Your Honour has drawn attention to the rule. MR. CHAIRMAN: Strangers will take no

part in the proceedings of this· House either by laughter or any motion. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, it is difficult for people in the galleries not to make noise when they hear such trash. - MR. S?-'.ALLWOOD: Invite it. Invite it. MR. HICKEY: No I am not going to invite it. I _ am going to ask them to try real hard to hold it back. If they feel they cannot hold it back, would they kindly just walk a~ound for a little while. Oh, such hogwashl It would almost make one slow up even more,seeing it becomes more boring for some hon. gentlemen on the other side. Anyway, Mr.

Chairman, now that we know the hon. minister is conscious of my driving,that is interesting. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, to a point of order, may I ask Your Honour if it would be in order for us to get a tape recording of this and play it on the air so that people can really hear it, because they would not believe it otherwise~ MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, it would be quite acceptable, if we could have high moments on the other side also recorded, like last night's exhibition. We would love to have it on the air. MR. HICKEY: Hr.

Chairman, if the Premier can arrange for that tape,! would go right along with it. 3974

Hay 18, 1971 Tape 681 Pih-,. 5 MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, plese! MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, order? I am replying to a point of order that the Premier stood on. I stood on a point of order. Mr. Chairman, may I reply, speak to a point of order? MR. CURTIS: It is not a point of order, it is a suggestion. MR. HICKEY: Well, the next time the Premier rises on a point of order, then I will trust that the Chair will disregard his presence. It will not apply to me, but it will apply over there. I am not one bit ashamed, Mr. Chainnan, to have any of my constituents hea~ what I have to say in the House, not . a bit.

If I do not go fast enough for some hon. gentlemen, that is too bad. I really feel bad about that. My heart is aching. Mr. Chairman, we were told that the Exon House was going to open last year. I think it was last August it was suppose to open; the minister told us. Just another indication, Mr. Chairman, of the kind of answers we get in this House. When did it open? It opened in }larch of this year. I could go on through. Mr. Chairman, there are quite a number of questions that were asked, the answers that were given were most unsatisfactory. We will get on to those as•we cover various sections of the estimates.

But, I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, to the hon. the minister that, if he is going to run his department and if he is going to do the job that he is responsible for and that he is expected to do, then I would suggest that he re~rain from getting too involved - MR. BARBOUR: But, you will agree~ he is doing a good job? MR. HICKEY: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, I did agree approximately a year ago, when the minister first went into that department he brought in some measures here that I had to support and I certainly agreed that he was on the right track, but he has gone on an entirely different course since then.

I am afraid I cannot agree right now, because you expect certain things from the Minister of Welfare or the Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation. We expect understanding. We expect an appreciation for people's rights. We expect a number of things. But when that is not forthcoming, Mr. Chairman, one can only lose confidence, and it is because of that, that I intend to move the motion that I shall move before I take my seat. 3975

Hay 18, 1971 Tape 681 PK - 6 MR. HICKEY: Now, Mr. Chairman, this matter, the matter the minister raised, I did not raise it, he did, he referred to a file which was in his department. I am not going to stop, Hr. Chairman, as long as I am able to stand on my feet, I am not going to stop until the minister does one thing or another relative to that file. He either produces that file or he gives an explanation as to just what he meant or takes it back, one or the other. He has attempted to do enough damage to me already. I do not intent to tolerate or take any more, because, Mr.

Chairman, there is nothing wrong with my hearing. There.is nothing wrong with my eyes. I know the conditions under which I left the Department of Welfare. I read my mail. I also read reports that are made by various people in that department while I was ably employed. None of this at all resembled anything the minister came up with. When he was asked to retract it, of course, he would not. When proof was provided the news media, he then saw fit to attack his own officials. Mr. Chairman, if the hon. minister can term that fair, I do not.

I do not know where his sense of faimess is, but certainly 1 as far as I am -:oncerned, if I had made a charge against someone , as be made against me, I would be rather quick, Mr. Chairman, and only too happy, if I had made a mistake,to retract it, to take it back. But, of course, we have not heard that from the hon. minister. Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of documents here that I should produce to the House,in view of the fact that the minister will not have anything to say on the matter. He will not produce the file. Maybe this will change his mind. Maybe he will produce. It is necessary, Mr.

Chairman, it is unfortunate, I do this with no sense of satisfaction.I can assure the. .hon. minister and the House• I will ask the House to bear with me·. I never thought, Mr. Chairman, when I entered politics - MR. NEARY: Is that your resignation there on the desk? MR. HICKEY: That would be wishful thinking on the part of the hon. minist€r. MR. NEARY: And the hon. member~ colleagues. MR. HICKEY: Wishful thinking. Is that right? The hon. minister and quite 3976

Mny 18, 1971 Tape 681 PK - 7 ~- -HICKEY: a number of other people on that side should be worried so much about me and my colleagues on this side, because they got trouble enough right in the1r own camp, believe me_,and they know only too well what I refer to. So if you want to get like that, let me know,whenever you want to debate on that,and we will have a full-scale debate. Maybe you will be sorry for opening your mouths. As I would say, Mr.

Chairman, when I decided to enter politics I never thought I would see the day when I would have to stand in the House and read a letter or letters written by other people to defend my own employment record. I never thought, Hr. Chairman, that I would run against or run into anyone so low-down as to make such accusations as the minister made against me. MR. NEARY: Is that in order, Mr. Chairman? MR. HICKEY: Yes, this is in order, Mr. Chairman, because charges have been made against me this afternoon.By insinuation,they have meen made outside of this House, I did not raise the issue, he raised it.

The hon. minister raised it, now I am answering it. MR. NEARY: The hon. the minister hrs not spoken yet. MR. HICKEY: The hon. minister referred to a file that he was going to ~ring into this House and I have asked him three times to bring it in here. He doeos not have the guts to bring it in, that is why. MR. NEARY: Oh, my! MR. HICKEY: So for the record of this House, Mr. Chairman, MR. NF.ARY: Good parliamentary language. MR. HICKEY: if I were to walk out of this House,never to come back,tomorrow, I would want those reports in Hansard for all to read. Let me tell the hon. the minister something else too.

Make him bring those two people that signed those. He might have some "yes men" in his department, but those are not two of them. MR. NEARY: Do not be so low now, let us get down to business of the House. MR. HICKF.Y: Let him bring them here. Let him bring them here and be questioned. We will find out the truth. MR~ NEARY: Do not be down grading them. MR. IIICKEY: We will find out the truth of my record in the Department of Welfare. 3977

May 18, 1971 Tape 681 PK - 8 MR. NF.ARY: Do not be down-grading the House now. MR. l!ICKEY: Ah;to be down -grading the House; The hon. the minister down­ grades the House by his very presense, every time he opens his mouth. MR. NEARY: Keep the House above personalities now. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, in 1964 - MR. NEARY: I do not think the hon. member likes me very well. MR. HICKEY: In 1964, Hr. Chairman, 'I had reason to tender my resignation to the Department of Welfare. I had obtained a position- with British American Oil,which gave me something like a $2800 annual increase in salary. Mr.

Chairman, there is no doubt in my mind, there is no doubt in the minds of those who worked with me in that department, that there had not always been agreement. There were things that I disagreed with my superiors on,in terms of policy,, in terms of regulation. I will make no apology, Mr. Chairman, for that. I do not make any apology to anyone for that, because it is through ~onstructive criticism that you will get some kind of decent policy. But the fact of the matter is, Mr.

Chairman, at no time did I resign from the Department of Welfare ·as a result of a suggestion made by anybody, the slightest hint or dnything els~. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to read the letter which came to me,as a result of my tendering my resignation. It is dated September 8. , 1964 and it reads as follows: "near Mr. Hickey: Your letter of September 1, 1964,in which you tender your resighation 1has been received. I am instructed by my Deputy Minister,tthe same gentleman is in that Department today, Mr.

Chairman)uto tell you that your resignation is accepted .with regret." I suppose this is the part the minister refers to as being customary. If it had stopped thete, Mr. Chairman, I might be in mind to agree with him. But it did not. "I am also to inform you that should you wish to return at any time, you will be welcome." Now, Hr. Chairman, is the minister going to say that the man who wrote that letter and the gentleman who asked him to write it, who informed him of the type of letter to write,were hypocrites?

This is what he tries to make them out as. -should you wish to return at anytime, . <; you will be welcome. Furthermore, if you wish to give the Deputy Minister· · 3978

May 18, 1971 Tape 681 PK - 9 MR. HICKEY: name as a reference, he will be glad to write your employer, if requested to do so." Does that indicate incompetence, Mr. Chairman? Which was another wild charge by the hon. the minister. The hon. the minister now, Mr. Chairman, might open his ears good and wide and listen to this. Because apparently he has not seen it or hear/of it. This comes from the department that were so glad to get rid of me, if one were to believe what the hon. the minister said outside of this House. "We are indeed very sorry that you have decided to leave this department.

You have made a valuable contribution to our work and I wish to thank you sincerely for your co-operation and services rendered. I know I speak for the department as a whole when I wish you an unlimited success ano happiness in your future." , It is sip:ned, 'Yours, sincerely, C.S. Knight,Director of Field Services." That is on the Department of Public Welfare stationery, ~r. Chariman. Now, ~r. Chairman, here is another; that when I was leaving the department the minister refers to the fact that I was incompetent.

He also said that I did not take any traininp, did not try to upgrade myself, did not take advantaie of the opportunities at university to do so. I repudiated the state~ents then, Mr. Chairman, and I repudiate them now; that they are untrue 3979

May 18, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 682 NC - 1 MR. HICKEY: if he would open his eyes and do a little bit more digging, he would find out how many times I attended Memorial while I was in the employ of that Department,but he just sits there with a grin on his face. Like I told the hon. gentleman that time,he would not meet me in a challenge. All right but he does not hide from this House, he has got to take it now. That last letter, Mr. Chairman, was in 1964,when I was leaving. It wanted us to believe what the hon. Minister says and says that it was customary ••••• MR. NEARY: I have not said anything yet. MR.

HICKEY: The hon. Minister had a lot to say last fall. MR. NEARY: Is this in order, Mr. Chairman? MR.HICKEY: Mr. Chairman, the hon. Minister raised it in this House today, He opened his mouth and put his foot in it again and now he has got to sit in the fire and put up with the heat. MR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): Since all this is a personal grievance,which he is dealing with in response to nothing, no one has made any attack on him, -!~is is completely out of order and someone of very higher authority is listening and said this is completely out of order, Pure personal grievance. MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Chairman, to that point of order, it is too bad the Premier was not here earlier this afternoon. He was listening 1was he? Did he hear what the hon. Minister said? MR. SMALLWOOD: I heard evecy word he said. MR. HICKEY: Did you hear what he said about his file? Would he bring his file? I asked him to bring it but he would not bring it. Did he hear that? A personal attack right in this House,and I am answering it. There was a personal attack outside the House,last fall,and I have a right to answer it and that is just what I am doing, Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: Do not be so paranoidal. MR.

HICKEY: It does not matter a thing to me, Mr. Chairman. There are a hell of a lot of people in the Department of Welfare listening today. 3980

May 18, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 682 NC - 2 MR. SMALLWOOD: If I cannot get a ruling from your Honour, I will move that the House rise and we will report to Mr. Speaker. MR. CROSBIE: On that Point of Order• (1) the hon. member for St. John's East Extern has a perfect right to speak on this matter,now the Estimates for the Department of Welfare are up. The Minister of Welfare attacked him last fall and alleged that he was dismissed from the Department of Welfare.that he had not resigned. These Estimates are now up and this is the chance for the hon. member co bring this matter up and,as far as the hon.

Premier's threatening t~ bring us out of Committee is concerned. go ahead. It is the wrong procedure. The Chairman can ma~e a ruling and then the hon. Premier can appeal the ruling,if he does not like it. But the hon. gentleman is perfectly at liberty. His conduct was questioned when he made some criticism of the Department of Welfare last fall . with an insidious insinuation.and he is pointing out that it is completely false, and the Minister has not retracted it : If the Minister'gets up now and retracts the insinuation then that is the end of it. MR.

HICKEY: Before your Honour makes a ruling, might I just say one thing. I did not raise this matter, Mr. Chairman, without knowing from where I was speaking. I had already inquired as to what rulings would be made. I had already inquired as to whether or not this was in order. This is in order, very much in order. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, if we want to question the issue let us call the Speaker back to the Chair and have a real ruling there. MR. SMALLWOOD: Before your Honour gives a ruling, might I say that the hon. member rea~ those same letters ••••••• MR. CROSBIE: I happened to be on my feet first, Mr.

Chairman. MR. CHAI fil!AN: One at a time. MR. Sl·!ALLWOOD: I was on the floor first. HR. LIICKEY: The Premier stands up. He does not bother looking,he says; I am on my feet first: The hon. member for St. John's West was on his feet first. 3981

May 18, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 682 MR. CROSllIE: Who has the floor, Mr. Chairman? HR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Premier has the floor. NC - 3 MR. SMALLWOOD: The hon. member for St. John's East Extern has read those same letters in this House before. There is no need of his doing it now. MR. HICKEY: To that Point of Order, Mr. Chairman, that is a lie. I have never read those letters in this House before. A deliberate, down-right lie. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, can I have a ruling on this stater ,ent now made? MR. HICKEY: Have a ruling on it. Have two or three rulings on it.

You have be~n calling people liars here for the last twelve months. How about a ruling on that too? MR. SMALLWOOD: Will your Honour order a complete refraction of that? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! I ask the hon. member to withdraw that statement. MR. HICKEY: Never: NeveP! No I will not withdraw that! You will wait until hell freezes over before I withdraw that! I said those same words two years ago and I spent three days out of here, fhree days from this House. You can call anyone you like a liar, can you not? Who are you? MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, I move that he be removed from the House. I move, Mr.

Chairman, that he be removed from the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! Shall the Cotmnittee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. MR. CHAIR."1AN: Mr. Speaker, during your absence certain hon. members refused to obey the ruling of the Chairman and we have appealed the ruling to you. MR. SMALLWOOD: Also, a declaration by the hon. member for St. John's East Extern that I was a "liar" that l had told a "deliberate lie~ Mr. Chairman ordered him to retract and he said "I will not, not if hell freezes over" and he has refused to retract it. MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, the Pre!.llier accuses me of reading those letters 3982

May 18, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 682 NC - 4 MR. HICKEY: in this House before, he knows that I did not read those letters. Those letters are of the nature, Mr. Chairman, that one would not forget them, if I read them. He knows full well I did not read them. He has been on his feet, sitting down, bobbing up and down for the past half hour 1attempting to rule me out ,of Order. MR. SPEAKER: The report before the Chair at the present time is this, as I understand it; that one hon. member, the hon. member for St.

John's East Extern,accused another hon. member, in this instance the Premier,of being,(I have not the exact words in front of me) of being a liar, "it is a deliberate lie". These words 1of course,are unparliamentary. they cannot be used in this House. The Chairman of Committees asked the hon. member to retract the statement, saying it was not parliamentary, it was against the rules of the House,and as I have been-given to understand it, the hon. member was asked to retract, he refused to do so, the Committee was raised so that we coulo come back into the House and deal with the matter.

I now have to ask,the hon. member has made his explanation and said what he has done, I heard the matter outside, of course. Now I have to ask the hon. member to make a retraction,to make an explanation or he will be "named'' and I will have to ask the House to deal with the matter further,as to what will be done in this particular situation. Do I hear the hon. member retract the statement that he made a few minutes ago? MR. HICKEY: Hr.

Chairman, on that point, I have sat in this House, Your Honour, and I have heard that word being volleyed back and forth this House to no end.I have stood on my feet on three' occasions and I have asked the Premier to retract a similar statement, He has never,to my knowledge, except on one occasion'this Session,has he withdrawn that type of remark. I have made that remark, Mr. Chairman,and under no circumstances will I retract it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member stated that he will not retract the statement.

He acknowledges making this statement.I inferred from his remarks that he does acknowledge the fact that he did make the statement of calling another person a "liar',' "a deliberate liar'\ and these remarks have to be retracted the House will decide. That is the end of the matter, I have given my ruling, nno'l

~ay 18,1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 682 NC - 5 MR. SPEAKER: the hon, member will have to retract or I will have to ask him to retire while the House makes the decision as to what it will be. I repeat it, if the member will explain and retract the statement, then,of course,the matter is closed and we will go back into Committee. I will suggest to the hon. member that he make his explanation.

I have heard his remarks as to why he refuses to retract, This matter is now formally before the Chair on a report from the Committee and there is no other alternative then to ask him to retract or to let the House deal with the matter as to what will be. This is the report as I hear it, this - MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, may I explain? MR •. SPEAKER: Yes I will accept an explanation. MR. HICKEY: I said that the statement made by the Premier was a lie, a deliberate lie because the Premier knew that I had not read those personal letters. It took an awful lot, Mr.

Speaker, to bring me t~ even read those letters here today. They were never read before. The Premier knows that. Insofar as taking anything back, I can only ask this House to award me the same justice that they have awarded the Premier on a number of occasions. I cannot in conscience take anything back. If the Premier can get away with this.then I can too. It is as simple as that. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member refuses to take back the words. He did, I understand it, use the words " that is a lie, a deliberate lie~• That is not parliamentary.

It should be retracted and regardless of the -circumstances under which the hon. member was provoked to say it, he m~st retract his statment or I will have to ask him to retire while the House deals with the matter, either now or a little bit later. I will have to ask"Mr. Hickey"to retire. Does the House wish to deal with _ the matter immediatelyZ I have to have a motion from the House. HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I move that the explanation of the hon. member for St. John's East Extern be accepted, seconded by the hon. the Leader of the 3984

May 18, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 682 NC - 6 MR. CROSBIE: Opposition. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, your Honour has ordered that the hon. member withdraw, retract and withdraw, he has refused to do so and when this other motion is disposed of, if your Honour can accept this motion. MR. SPEAKER: I cannot accept it. MR, SMALLWOOD: Well then I move,Y__?ur Honour,that the hon. member for St. John's East Extern- MR. CROSBIE: On a Point of Order, the hon.Speaker has not said why he cannot accept it. It is in line with Beauchesne, page 118, where it says, "in case the offending member does not,,.

If the explanation is deemed sufficient, some member will move that it be accepte4. '' That is what I am doing now. I deem that the explanation is sufficient. Page 117· of Beauchesne says, " in case a member persists in usine unparliamentary language, the Speaker will be compelled to'name him," which is what the Speaker has just done, which is equivalent to submitting his conduct to the judgement of the Bouse, The member should then explain and withdraw." The member pas explained and withdrawn.

It goes on;" it will be for the House to consider what course to follow in reference to him, If the explanation is deemed sufficient,some member will move that it be accepted." That is what I am doing, Mr, Speaker. I move that the explanation given by the member for St. John's East Extern be accepted as sufficient and it is in line with the parliamentary explanation. MR. SPEAKER: The Chair cannot accept the explanation.

I have to have an explanation which is satisfactory to the Chair or I have to;name'him •• If other members of the House think my not accepting it is incorrect, he can obviously move that it be accepted. I put the motion,that the explanation be accepted. MR. MURPHY: Can I speak on that motion, Mr. Speaker? MR, SMALLWOOD: Inaudible. :-m. SPEAKER: You can make a brief statement, seconding the moti~ _n_., _Y_er-, please do that. 3985

May 18, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 682 NC - 7 MR. MURPHY: I just want to speak for a moment or so on the same reason that, no matter what happens in this House,the Premier has got to deliver a judgement on it; in fairness to the Speaker. Now the hon. member has been endeavouring to speak on this thing for the past hour or ~o. He has been goaded, insulted and everything else, perhaps not insulted and that is the only reason.Ke was goaded into it and I think he has a perfect right to say that any statement made was not true,if it is not true. }ffi..

SPEAKER: I will say,just so this thing can be handled in the proper manner, if the tempers would be allowed to subside slightly. If the hon. member had said; ~this is incorrect. I did not mean to say that this was a lie and a deliberate lie: well then in this matter I ~'<>ulc1 have accepted the explanation if the House would have. So I will put the motion now that has been made by the hon. member for St. John's West ana seconded by the hon. teader of the Opposition. that the explanation be accepted. ;_hat I think was the wording of the motion.

Those in favour ,"\ye," contrary "Nay", in my opinion the "Nays," have it. ON DIVISION: MR. SPEAKER: Will all those in favour of the motion please rise. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Marshall, Mr. Collins, Mr. Earle, Mr. Hickman, Mr. Crosbie, Mr. Myrden. MR. SPEAKER: Will those against the motion please rise. The hon. the Premier, the hon. the President of the Council, the hon. Minister of Highways, Mr. Noel, Mr. Smallwood, the hon. Minister of Labrador Affairs, Hr. Hodder, Mr. Strickland, the hon. Minister of Education and Youth, the hon. Minister of Public Works, the hon.

Minister of Finance, the hon. Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources, the hon. Minister of Community and Social Development, the hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs, the hon. Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation, Mr. Barbour, the hon. Minister of Health. the hon. Mr. Hill, Mr. Saunders, ~h:. }!ahoney, Mr. 't-lornell. 3986

~rny 18, 1971 (Afternoon): Tape No. 682 : NC:8 MP. srr At:rr · I declare thc- motion lost. ~"' Ct'RTTS · I l'love, 1-'r. Speaker, under the circumstances, that the hon. member for St John's F.ast Extern be suspended for two days. Tt has been moved and seconded; the memher for St John's East r.xtern be suspended from the services of the House for two days. ~'R CROSCIE· I think it has been pointed out in this House that the hon. member for St John's East Extern is quite correct when he says the expressic,ns' lie' and ''liar' ' have been used in this House repeatedly during this session.

The hon. the Premier called me, in this House a liar, a dozen times, and was not order.ed to withdraw it. 1m SPF.J.KF~· Order Please! I ask the hon. member to he seated, since this is not relevant to the motion that is before the House. The motion is that ' the hon. r,el"ber for St John's East Extern be suspended for two days' ' - Those in favour '"J.ye'', contrary ''Nay" - I declare the motion carried: t-'ll. CROSBif.: On Division: DIVISION: MR. SPEAKER: Will all those in favour of the motion please rise. The hon. the Premier, the hon. the President of the Council, the hon. Minister of'Highways, Mr. Noel, Mr.

Smallwood, the hon. Minister of Labrador Affairs, Mr. Hodder, Mr. Strickland,the hon. Minister of Education and Youth, the hon. Minister of Public Works, the hon. Minister of Finance, the hon. Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources, the hon. Minister of Community and Social Development, the hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs, the hon. Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation, Mr. Barbour, the hon. Minister of Health, the hon. Mr. Hill, Mr. Saunders, Mr. Mahoney, Mr. Wornell. MR. SPCAKER: Will all those against the motion please rise. The hon. Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Marshal~, Mr. Collins, Mr.

Earle, Mr. Hickman, Mr. Crosbie, Mr. Hyrden. }IR. SPEAKER: I declare the motion carried. On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole on Supply. Mr. Speaker, left the Chair. C_O'.!!·!ITTEE OF Tl!£ \{UOL,C ON SUPPLY. MR. CROSBIE: On 1101-01, Mr.Chairman, before that is carried, I would like J987

May 18, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 682 NC - 9 MR. CROSBIE: to complete what the member for St. John's East Extern started when he was speaking to the Committee. The member said that he would end by moving a motion that the hon. Minister's salary be reduced from the amowit of $11,000 or whatever it is to ninety-eight cents. The Leader of the Opposition suggests that it should go down another ten cents, but down to ninety-eight cents. I now make that motion, seconded by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. This is necessary, Mr. Chairman, if for no other reason than that the Minister of Welfare, the hon.

Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation,made a false charge against the member for St. John's East Extern,last fall, wh~n there was a.matter of controversy on concerning .. the girls' home fire, when the Minister alleged that the member for St. John's East Extern had been expelled from the Department of Welfare or fired from his job. That was a false statement, a false charge. The member for St.

John's East Extern today has amply shown the falseness of it by producing letters to him wher he left the Departmen~ showing that he had resigned and congratulating him for his service and saying he was welcome back. MR. NEARY: The hon. Minister did not make any such charge. MR. CROSBIE: The Minister has not had the good grace to withdraw any insinuation or charge he made. If for no other reason, when somebody takes the Minister to task about some policy matter in his Department, if that is the tactic he is going to use, he does not deserve his salary as a member of the Executive Government.

Now the member for St. John's East had other points in connection with the administration of a Department that he thought the Minister should be criticized on, I am not going to bother going into it, I will just say this, Mr. Chairman, that the motion,in my view, is amply justified by what happened here this afternoon when the hon. member was deliberately goaded and then expelled from the House. All right,! will not mention that again. MR. SMALLl-:0OD: Why not? 3988

May 18, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 682 NC - 10 MR. CROSBIE: I will let the hon. Leader of the Opposition mention it. HR. NEARY: Because it is not in order,that is why. MR. CROSBIE: The Chairman says it is not in order. So on that count alone,Mr. Chairman, forgetting anything that has happened, the girls' home fire, the report that the Minister once tabled in the House and the rest of it, that motion is amply justified, and since the member is not here, I move it, seconded by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, there are one or two words I want to speak on this motion.

I did not hear the charge made by the hon. Minister last fall but I certainly heard him insinuate today,agaiast the hon. member for St. John's East Extern,that he would produce a · file. Now what is in that file I do not know but the insinuation I gathered,as I suppose everybody here and also the press and radio, that there is something in the file that was to the detriment of my hon. friend's career in the Department of Welfare. Now what is in,it I do not know.

But I was amazed, Sir, I wa~ amazed when a Minister could make that insinuation on the floor of this House and get away with it~impugning, if you like,the reputation of an hon. member of this House who had previously been an employee of the Department of Welfare. The hon. gentleman, Sir, spoke to the best of his ability, 3989

Hay 18, 1971 Tape 683 PK - 1 MR. MURPHY: We are not all great orators like the hon. the Premier and some others on the other side. We just do our best with what we have. We come here to represent people, not to win a public speaking contest. The gentleman was insulted, scolded and everything under the sun that a gentleman should not do,was done by the members opposite -they did - to the hon. the member. Now, Mr. Chairman, if that is or this is,what happened today 1democratic Government and uphold the dignity of this House, I say God help us'. That is all I say. HR. NEARY: Is this in order, Mr. Chairman?

HR. }[URPHY: God help us! I am speaking of this House of Assembly, and I have as much right as anybody else,of an incident that happened in this House today that I deeply resent. HR~ CHAIRMAN: Order, please! It is completely out of order to refer to that. MR MURPHY: All right, Mr. Chairman, as I said 1 we have the estimates to go through.

There are many matters in ~he estimates that we will discuss, but I ju;t say it is terribly regretful, Sir, that we are to be judged on our elocution or any other means,that a man elected by the people.he represent~ to core here in this House and be insulted,absolutely insulted - I think the apology should come from that side, not from this side. MR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, I did not intend to have anything to say on these welfare estimates until this latest row developed.

But this despictable conduct,which we have seen here this afternoon,on the part of the hon. minister I think is just ocassion enough for me to support the motion which was made by the hon. the member for St. John's West. Any minister who would use the tactics of referring to a file of one of the former civil servants or public service,to bring this into the House or threaten to bring it into the House to condemn a person who is now an elected member is too low to bear any reference whatsoever,and I am quite in sympathy. HR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, to a point of order. Is this matter disposed of now or not? MR.

CROSBIE: No, it is not. 3990

Hay 18, 1971 Tape 683 PK - 2 MR. SMALLWOOD: Under the rules of the House 1is this matter, the House has voted on it and taken action, now do we go on debating it? MR. EARLE: On that point of order, Mr. Chairman, the point of order the explusion of the hon. member has been dealt with, but he has not been cleared in any way for his action there. We should be permitted to give an explanation of what led up to this. This is what I am in the course of doing. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, on the point of order, we are now debating my motion that the minister's salary be reduced to ninety-eight cents and we are entitled to discuss his conduct. MR. ClIAIRMAU: We are now dealing with Item 1101-01,which is the salary of the Minister's Office. The matters relating to the manner in which the minister carries out his duty as a minister are subject for debate. Personal matters relating to the minister are not. MR. EARLE: Well the manner in which• Mr. Chairman, the minister carries out his duties have been very, very amply disclosed here this afternoon.

I cannot think of any more dramatic illustration of how the minister conducts his duties, because as minister be is duty bound. I would say, to defend al 1. members of his staff, all former~members of his staff and all those ~ho have gone throu~h.lt is the most despicable, as I said, sort of tactic 1to refer to an employee or a former employee in this . snarky manner. Therefore, I think, that the hon. gentleman had ample reason to become properly incensed an~ annoyed. But, furthermore than that, Mr.

Chairman, during this session of the House the hon. the minister on the other side, in charge of this department, has given repeated evidence of his incompetence. He above all others has been responsible for disruption of the procedures of this House. He has continually heckled in the most childish infantiie sort of a manner. He has made absurd remarks across the House. He does not show the dignitynor the proper sense of proportion that a minister of the Crown should have. Now I contend, Mr. Chairman, that this motion,to reduce the minister's salary,is only a gesture,of course.

But. it is a gesture with seriousness behind it, because at no other time do the members of this House ~et an opportunity to gauge how the minister conducts his affairs or his depart~ent 3991

May 18, 1971 Tape 683 PK - 3 Ml!.. EARLE: except on debate on his department and on debate of other departments in the House. It is during these debates that we have seen the most ridiculous, childish and silly accusations coming from the hon. the minister. Therefore, he has himself given the strongest type of evidence that he is not the type of person that should be in charge of a department of this nature, of this importance. I contend that the salary vote here is not justified. It is not justified for a person of that type. This is the argument that we are making. This whole thing, Mr.

Chairman, the conduct of the affair of the childrens homes, I referred to it in previous debates, it was pitiful. I was accused, this is one of the snide remarks the minister made,that when I was Minister of Welfare I did nothing. At least I kept my big mouth closed and did not cause a furor. I kept my mouth closed and did not cause a whole system of caring for the children to be upset by a few foolish remarks, which were publized and made so that the whole foundation of caring for these children was in jeapordy. Now this again illustrates the 1~comptence of the minister.

A man that will come out in public and start this sort of controversy that developed over these childrens homes does depict the highest degree of incompetence on the part of the minister and that is why I am speaking on this reduction of salary. 'HR. NEARY: Do not be so narrow..fflinded and bigoted. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. The hon. the member for Forttme Bay has been speaking for a few moments, the hon. the minister has been interrupting on · two or three ocassions with the type of base comments that he has been making all through the session of this House.

Now can we have an order from you, a ruling from you, Mr. Chairman, asking the hon. the minister,if he has anything to say .to rise on a point of order or else sit down and keep his face quiet. AN HON. MD!BF.R: Inaudible. MR. EARLE: The hon. gentleman is entitled to his opinion just as I am to mine, He has his opportunity,after I have spoken, if he wants to get up and contradict everything I say, if he so wishes to do. I am making my point and I emphasize it and re-emphasize it that . in this House the conduct of the hon. the minister 3992

May 18, 1971 Tape 683 PK - 4 MR. EAFLE: does not lend faith in his ability to act as minister of that department. It does not give public faith. I reiterated that the conduct of the minister,over the Girls' and Boys'Home affair, only further illustrated that point. The sort of remarks that we have had thrown across this side of the House,about how other members,when they are on the other side of the House, conducted themselves,are nothing of the nature that a man who is suppose to bear the dignity of the Minister of the Crown should repeat.

This type of thing is dragging the conduct of this House down to a lower level than it has ever been in the history of Newfoundland. The hon. the man who occupies this post 1 as a minister,is the one most responsible for it. I would say, Mr. Chairman, that we cannot have any useful discussion on his estimates, because he will rise to point of trying to throw red herring across every estimate that may-be discussed.

We have seen this chap accused, on so many ocassions,of matters which are suppose to be discussed intelligent~y and then some suide remark creeps in from the hon. the minister and throws everybody off, So in this particular minister's case, I think, I would propose . that this side of the House,in complete destain of the hon. the minister and his conduct of this affair,that we will let his estimates go through without question. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Chairman, the motion is that the hon. minister's salary be reduced.

I oppose it, and I oppose it because the hon. minister is one of the ablest ministers of Welfare or Social Services and Rehabilitation in the whole of Canada today. There are eleven of them, ten Provincial and one Federal. He is one of the ablest of the lot in the whole of Canada. An extremely competent and an ext~emely able minister of what we use to call "Welfare." We now call him, Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation. An extremely abled minister. Not only abled, but compassionate, as a Minister of Welfare should be, compassionate. He is a man with a sense of human compassion.

Anybody in the Province can see him. He works an averaRe of fourteen, fifteen hours a day, h~rd-working, compassionate,an able minister, and the idea of cutting his salary is just ridiculous. It is just too silly, 3993

May 18, 1971 Tape 683 PK - 5 MR. SMALLWOOD: too silly for words and,of course , we will vote against it. MR. J-lARSHALL: Hr. Chairman, on this motion,the facts that have occurred, the actions taken by the minister himself today are grounds enough to sustain this·motion of reduction in his salary. To impugn a reputation of an individual,of hiding behind the immunity of this House, is disgraceful in itself, but to impugn the reputation of a fomer civil servant is unforgiveable.

A civil servant, when he joins the employee in the public service,takes an oath of secrecy, consequently, that civil servant is not able, if he is going to comply .with the oath which he has taken. to defend himsP.lf properly.

I say, it is disgraceful, it is vile and it is the lowest type of exhibition that I am sure a minister of the Crown,and that is saying something when you look at the record of this Government, but it is the lowest action taken by any minister of the Crown in recent history,anywhere in the world. ' I would certainly support,it in view of the actions that have been taken today against an hon. member of this House, not necessarily although including, because he is an hon. member of this House, also the fact that he is a former civil servant.

A ·disgraceful attack on his reputation and he being unable to defend himsel~ properly 1 !n any event, because of the oath of secrecy which civil servants take. It is absolutely ridiculous and the hon. the minister should hang his head in shame with the other members opposite, who, some of them 1 are already showing their distain by their expressions on their faces. MR. HICY.MAN: Mr.

Chairman, on the point of the hon. minister's compassion, if we accept the well known principle that has been ennunicated here time and time and time again,by the hon. the Leader of the Government and by other hon. members,that a minister,whether he likes it or not,is responsible for everything, but everything,that goes on in his department. Now let us look at the compassion, is a minister,who collects from a man,permanently and totally disabled,a debt that is twelve years old, when he still has five dependents, is that a compassionate minister? If it is a compassionate minister then my

interpretation of compassion and the hon. 3994

May 18, 1971 Tape 683 PK - 6 HR. HICKMAN: the Premier's

interpretation of compassian are very much at odds. Is it a compassionate minister who?when he knows and discovers that there has been a mistake maie in his department,seeks to recover from a widow and a dependent child the amount of the overpayment and reduces her total income to $50 or $60 a month! Is that compassion? I do not think it is compassion. I say it is hard.heartedness that has been unprecedented in the portfolio of Welfare or Social Services and Rehabilitation. \ My

interpretation of the administration or' the Department of Welfare is that it is suppose to be the very heart of the Government.

Governments can make all sorts of plans and announcements and great efforts to tey and promote almost any field of endeavour that you can think of that comes under the jursidiction of a Province.: The:, can try and develop the Province economically,th~y can try and find badly needed employment for the people of our Province .,thE:V can try and improve the lot of education or health or justice or highways or anything that you want to name, but the real heart of the Government, where Government exposes itself to the public ~s b£ing either sympathetic to t'he underprivileged, sympathetic to th~ unfortunates, is through the Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation.

We have it already in this session of the House.absolute refusal on the part of the hon. the Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation to take into account the hardships that are being suffered by people of this Province,through no fault of their own. Compassionate minister? Not on your life. Not on your life, Mr. Chairman. We have never seen such a sharp knife exercised by any Minister of Weifare since Confederation.

We have never seen such anxiety to collect back from people who cannot afford it and to cause hardship, as we have seen during the past year,always under the ~~is~ tbat we have to do it because of the regulations. This is nonesense. It is not the regulations 1the costing-sharing regulations,that had anything to do with it. If you are going, you can forgive,as one hon. minister said here recently 1when a Bill was being passed relating to this department;in the absence of the hon. the minister, the Treasury Board can write off these thin~s, if the Minister of Welfare and Social Services so recommends. 3995

May 18, 1971 Tape 683 PK - 7 MR. HICKMAN: Is this not whatWelfare is all about? Sure,any minister has to see that there is no abuse of welfare. I cannot think of very many cases in this Province today where we find open abuse of welfare by those who are in receipt of social assistance. The regrettable fact is that on very rare ocassions this is discovered and any time it is discovered that case does duty for all. There are very, very few people in Newfoundland today,on short-term assistance,who want to be there. There are no people on long or short term assistance today, who are living above the proverty line.

The monies that are being voted, the moni~s that are being provided by the compassionate minister do not enable our people to live with the dignity _that they are entitled to receive. When a man ~sill and when a man is unable to work or a widow is unable to find any sustenance or support, she,in my opinion, is entitled to live,hopefully at a level that was somewhat similar to tha~which she enjoyed before she found herself in these unsatisfactory circumstances. But this is not happening, ~ot on your life.

Ask any widow·in this Province,who is in receipt of long-term assistance, and there are depeJdent children, if she can make both ends meet? Ask her. Visit her home, and tell her you come as an embassary of the minister of compassion. You will not find any evidence of compassion,on the part of the Mllnister of Welfare, for these people. Great statements! Profound announcements! Great academic and theoretical speeches, but none of this help the widow in Point May or Port au Choix. What she is trying to do is to keep body and soul together and she has not been able to do it.

I always felt that the Department of Welfare, Social Services and Rehabilitation,that apart from showing compassion to the unfortunates, which it is not doing,had another responsibility in the Field of Welfare and that was to aid and assit organizations and communitJes and areas that ;want to provide accommodation for our senior citizens. I had an experience and this will indicate to the Committee the type of apprp~ch and the type of vindictiveness that emanates from the hon. the minister. I have been fairly heavily involved~durinr, the past year,with a 3996

May 18, 1971 Tape 683 PK - 8 MR. HICKMAN: group on the Peninsula of Burin,who want to build a home for senior citizens. They want to be absolutely certain that the home they build will be eminently suited for the,purpose intended. They want to take and avail of all the professional advice and co-operation that they can get from the alleged experts. They want to build something and follow the pattern that was followed by the group in Corner Brook. So the charitable organization has been incorporated. It has not the distinction, it is the second organization of its kind to be compietely and absolutely inter-faith.

Ivery church is involved, Pentecostal, Salvation Army, United Church, Anglican and Roman Catholic. They are spear-heading the drive. So,after it was organized-there was a representation made to that grouP, by a clergyman or clergy, (I have forgotten which) in Fortune,that they have a look at a motel that was on the market. They asked me about it.

My advice to them was;under no circumstances enter 0.into any sort of contract or binding agreement or even give the slightest indication that they were interested more than give a cursory examination,wit~out getting advice from the officials of this department,whose estimates we are now discussing. I found the officials most co-operative. So we had a meeting one might in Fortune.and there was a motion made by me,that we ask the Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation to arrange for aninspectionby the appropriate officials of Government of various departments.

That area was visited by representatives from this department, from Health and from the Fire Commissioner's Office and the Department of Public Works. Now you have to bear in mind that there are certain people in the Town of Fortune who genuinely believe they are on the right tract. You know they had no experience before,in operating this kind of home,and . they were led by the Reverend Saunders.

So,after the inspection, the inspection is made, I am not saying there is any obligation on these officials to consult with them when they go down, but they knew little, if anything, about the insrection, unti .l they get a very cursory report from the hon. the minister, 3997

May 18, 1971 Tape 683 PK - 9 l-!R. HICKMAN: saying that the inspection had been carried out and that he strongly recommended ar,ainst it. Now most people in that committee would be prepared, I know I was,to accept the recommendations of the expert, hut the gentlernen,particularly in Fortune,felt that they were entitled to something more than that, that they were entitle to know the professional grounds upon which these opinions were based. Nothing to do with the suitability of the motel per sa, nothing at all to do with that, lt was not going to be made public knowledge. They wrote and asked him.

Now I read to this House a part of that letter, (I do not know where it is now) from the hon. the minister to the xeverend gentleman in Fortune,who was acting in his capacity as Secretary of this Commission. Look it is incredible,the reply he got. The insinuation was that the department was not going to have any part of trying to unload what was an unprofitable institute unto this group.

The Minister concluded his letter by saying; "! would strongly recommend that you read my speech•~o such and such an organization) ~and there you will find the answers.• Well, riow1 is this the way to treat a volunteer organization that wan :s to d~ ~ood work in its area?' Is this the -minister of compassion and the minister with a heart? Here is an organization that wants to relieve Government of its administrative burdens in that particular field. The thing has been set back for several weeks as a result of it, It will get on the rails again.

Fortunately, Central ~[ortgage and Housing Corporation are quite co-operative. I can foresee that before this year is over, if for no other reason,out of share determination and need,they are going to succeed, you know. But the impression that has been left with these gentlemen,who are all community leaders, is that . they are being treated with distain by the compassionate minister.

Look,the Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation should be on his knees.going all over this Province trying to presuade volunteer groups, interfaith groups, service clubs and any other kind of groups to assist in building and administering these homes for the aged and infirm. We have heard it here in this House a dozen . times;that there is a desperate need throughout the Province for these homes. So there is a desperate need. 3998

May 18, 1971, Tape 684, Page 1 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: but we are not getting much more than lip service. You are not going to encourage the . cooperation of the peo!)le who are interested and prepared to do this work, if you are going to treat them in the manner that they have been treated. The attitude; let me sum u~ the attitude that was put in writing by· the secretary of this commission or what ever you would call it - corporation.

He concluded, after a very bitter commentary on the way he had been treated, referring to the hon. minister he said; "sorry for the mood, but I guess I have taken just ·abcut all the fuddle-duddle and fal-dee-dee that I can." Now this is the minister of compassion. This is the minister with a heart. Our people,through no fault of their own,are not getting the assistance that allows them to keep body and soul together. The voluntary organizations that want to build homes for the aged and infirm are being insulted.

I Then we reach the final situation,where no employee in that department can rest easy insofar as his department files are concerned. This Legislature passed an amendment,! understand, to the Elections Act or the Legislative Oisabilities Act, so many years ago. There was a great deal of controversy over it, but the principle was probably sound. It was designed to encourage and permit public servants to enter public life.

I can see one or two in this Chamber now and there are other in this House who are not sitting in the Chamber at this time, who,because of that, I am sure, did not hesitate to serve their Province. Hopefully, in the .t?owels of ti:i,i~ ~-~ilding we have other public servants who too can make a ·contribution to this Province. But, is any public servant, particularly i 3999

May 18, 1971, Tape 684, Page 2 -- apb in the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation, is he going to give serious consideration to offering himself as a candidate in a Provincial election, if he knows that the first time he gets involved in an argument with his former minister, he is going to have the threat held over him of exposure of his personal file? No Mr. Chairman, this is not a compassionate minister, and this is what the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation is all about, compassion.

Not a sharp knife, not somebody who watches the balance sheet, yet I have always regarded this vote as an open vote. When you run into the unemployment rate that we have today, you cannot come back and say to these people who have been victimized by the planned fight against inflation, cannot come back and say to them; "sorry,! cannot help you because the Legislature did not vote me enough money to do it." The money has to be spent anyway, and it,has to be spent with compassion, not out of benevolence. There is • nothing benevolent about long-term or short-term assistance, lt is payments out of compassion.

It is payments out of, the recognition that these people.through no fault of their own, find themselves unemployed, f!rid themselves unable to work. That is what we are looking for. That is the kind of leadership that this Province is looking for in this department. If there is one thing that is missing, it is compassion. To try an defend the - or vote against this motion on the grounds that we have a compassionate minister, there should be some better grounds than that.Mr. Chairman. MR. CROSBIE: Does the minister want to speak? MR. NEARY: I am easy to get along with. MR.

CROSBIE: The Minister apparently does not wan·t to speak. 4000

May 18, 1971, Tape 684, Page 3 -- apb Now, Mr. Chainnan, to get my motion worded quite correctly, it is that the minister's salary be reduced from $11 thousand by $10,999.02 to the amount of ninety­ eight cents. That is the motion. Mr. Chairman, the minister has amply demonstrated today that he is not the !·-!inister of Welfare, he is mo;re the "Minister of Fear." This underhanded attempt to intimidate a member of this House,by stating that the minister has information in a file that is damaging to the member, is unheard of. I do not doubt that,if I had time to search Beauchesne there now, I