Manitoba Hansard — 6 October 1988 (Sitting 52, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-52

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 52 - 1:30 p.m., THUR SDAY, OCTOBER 6, 1988. ISSN 0542- 5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME CONSTITUENCY ALCOCK, Reg Os borne ANGUS, John St. Norbert ASHTON, Sieve Thompson BURRELL, Parker Swan River CARR, James Fort Rouge CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights CHARLES, Gwen Selkirk CHEEMA, Gulzar Kildonan CHORNOPVSKI, William Burrows CONNERY, Edward Hon. Portage la Prairie COWAN, Jay Churchill CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose du Lac DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin.: Russell DOER, Gary Concordia DOWNEY, James Hon. Arth ur DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Emerson DRIEDGER, Herold, L. Niakwa DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon.

Riel EDWARDS, Paul St. James ENNS, Harry Lakeside ERNST, Jim, Hon. Ch arleswood EVANS, Laurie Fort Garry EVANS, Leonard Brandon East FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo FINDLAY, Glen Hon. Vir den GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa GRAY, Avis Ell ice HAMMOND, Gerrie Kirkfield Park HARAPIAK, Harry The Pas HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland HELWER, Edward R. Gimli HEMPHILL, Maureen Logan KOZAK, Richard, J. Transcona LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M. lnkster MALOWAY, Jim Elm wood MANDRAKE, Ed Assiniboia MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris McCRAE, James Hon. Brandon West MINENKO, Mark Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon.

River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Glad stone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PATTERSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin .PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gilles Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAVLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill lnterlake WASV LVCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

Johns VEO, Iva Stu rgeon Creek PARTY LIBERAL LIB ERAL NDP PC LIB ERAL LIBE RAL LIBERAL LIB ERAL LIBE RAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIB ERAL PC LIB ERAL PC PC LIB ERAL NDP PC PC LIB ERAL PC LIB ERAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIB ERAL LIB ERAL NDP LIB ERAL PC PC LIB ERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIB ERAL PC NDP PC PC LIB ERAL LIB ERAL NDP LIB ERAL NDP NDP LIB ERAL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, October 6, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker , I want to table for all Members of the House today the "Review of the Manitoba Continuing Care Program " by Price Waterhouse. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Question Period, I would • like to draw Honourable Members' attention to the gallery where we have, from the Precieux -Sang School , eighteen Grade 12 students under the direction of Mr. Bertrand Delaquis .

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) . On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Environment Round Table Ministerial Participation Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) . Yesterday , the Premier announced the formation of a round table on the environment and the economy. It is interesting that only that side is clapping.

In keeping with his philosophy of how this province should be governed, the group was formed without his first consulting with environmental groups. In fact , on this one, not only did he overlook the environmental lobby, he deliberately ensured that his Environment Minister (Mr. Connery) would not have any involvement in the round table . Can the First Minister tell the House why did the First Minister choose not to appoint the Minister of Environment (Mr. Connery) or the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Penner) to this round table? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, so that the Member knows, the Cabinet decided a couple of weeks ago that as ex-officio members the Minister of Environment (Mr. Connery) , t he Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Penner) , and the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology (Mr. Ernst) would sit on the round table of environment and the economy . The round table was, in essence, to be an advisory group to Governmen t, and I do not think you call upon your own Ministers to give you your own advice.

To make them full participants and partners, the intention of the round table is to have outside advice , to have people of the highest stature possible within the community at large, from the broadest possible cross

section of people as the people who are giving the advice to Government on sustainable development. The Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) may be interested to know that this morning David Peterson announced his round table on environmental and economy because he did not want to be scooped by Manitoba and his Environment Minister is not the chairman of that group either. *

(1335) Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Mrs. Carstairs: I wish we could concentrate on affairs in Manitoba since they are so badly managed. With a question to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) again . Did the First Minister even bother to seek some advice from the Minister of Environment (Mr. Connery) with regard to the formulation of the round table in that the Minister of Environment seems to think all of the decisions-as so many decisions are made in this Government-were made by the Premier 's Office itself? Mr. Filmon: Just so that the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs .

Carstairs) understands , because perhaps her critics have not informed her, the whole concept on the round table and on sustainable development was developed by the United Nations Commission, known as the Brundtland Commission. The focus of attention of that commission is on development-environmentally sustainable development. The focus , as Bruntland indicates, is not to solve the problems of poverty by cutting off all development, but rather utilizing development in a safe, environmentally sound manner to the benefit of those underprivileged and underdeveloped countries and areas of this world.

Therefore, the focus is firstly on development and , secondly , ensuring that it is in harmony with the environment and with the nature that surrounds us. Therefore , we look upon this as an initiative for the kind of clean , sustainable development that we must have in order to contribute in future to our province 's growth and health. Environment Minister Resignation Request Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): From that answer, one can only assume his Environment Minister (Mr. Connery) was not consulted. In that he was not consulted, and in that the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Penner) does not seem to have been 1930

Thur sday, October 6, 1988 consulted, and in tha t there seems to be a one-man show in running the new Gove rnment of the Province of Manitoba, would the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) ask for the Minister of Environment's resignation? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, please. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): The establ ishment of the round table on environment and the economy was as a result of a joint paper tha t was brought to Cabinet by several Ministers, and they included the Minister of Environment (Mr. Conn ery), the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Penner) and the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology (Mr. Ernst). So her pream ble is totally false, her conclusion is totally false, and as usual, the Leader of the Opposit ion does not know what she is ta lking about. Mrs. Carstairs: Tha t is why we have one environmental ist on this round table. * (13 40) Environmental Programs Sustainable Development Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): This morning, the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) is reported to have said, in an interview, tha t the Centre for Sustai nable Dev elopment was the cornerstone of his policy on the environment.

Yet last week, shortly after the centre was announced in New York, last Thursday, he expressed as much surprise as the Opp osition Members did. In fact , he admitted he had no other data on the centre than what was reported in the media. How can the Minister possibly claim tha t this is the cornerstone of his environmental policy when it is clear from the information tha t he has that neither he nor his Environment Minister (Mr. Con nery) have ever been involved in any significant way in planning it? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Again, the Leader of the Opp osition (Mrs. Car stairs) insists on spreading fiction.

She has done it over and over and over again. An Honourable Member: Your words- Mr. Filmon: No, Mr. Speaker, it is not my words. They never have been my words. When I met with members of the media, and th ey can confirm it, I indicated tha t was an initiativ e that we have un dertaken to convi nce the federal Government to locate in Manitoba from the day tha t we were in Gove rnment; tha t we had been working on it with the federal Gov ernment from back in May; that I had spoken with the Prime Minister on Tuesday, preceding his announcement on Thursday at the United Nations.

In tha t personal conversation, he had indicated to me that it would be in his United Nations speech because it flows from the United Nations Comm ission Report, the Brundtland Report, tha t recommends the development of a Sustai nable Development Centr e worldwide; tha t Canada wanted to be the leader in this th rust and tha t we in Manitoba had been working on this and had been initiat ing th is. What I did say to them was tha t unlike many of the thi ngs th at have been announced, for instance, in the federal campa ign by Mr.

Turner, where he does not know how much the y cost , where he does not know any of the details, tha t we acknowledge tha t this would be so important that we would have to work over the next six months to work out the details: wha t components of education would be involved ,- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Filmon: -w hat components of research would be involved, what components of economic development would be involved. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Sustainable Development Policy and Purpose Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): A supplementary quest ion to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon).

In light of his just-now made stat ement, would he table in this House the proposal tha t this Gove rnment sent to the federal Gover nment for this new centre on Sustai nable Development? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I know that the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) is absolutely hurting tha t we have received this init iative, this development and this comm itment from the federal Gover nment, tha t it is some thing tha t ha s been done by two Gov ernments cooperating tha t involves a very, very positiv e thing. I have had calls from right across the nation, people congratu lating us on this group.

She is so unhappy tha t she wants to somehow cast doubt on it, somehow say tha t it is not a good initia tive for Manitoba. These thi ngs are done because we have worked in cooperat ion with the federal Gover nment. We have put forward proposals. They have acknowledged the principle of the proposals and the th rust of what we are doing and the y have said it is good and let us work together to accomplish it.

Under tho se circumstanc es, work ing together , put ting th ose proposals and exchanging ideas, we are going to come up with the very best centre for the benefit of all Manit obans and indeed a world class centre for Sus tai nable Development tha t will be for the benefit of our entir e countr y. 1931 Mrs. Carstairs: I can only assume tha t is a "no," th ere was not any plan. Would the First Minister, in that he has proposed all of the se thi ngs to the federal Gov ernment, tell us toda y just exactly what is going to be the purpose of this centre? What is the funding going to be for thi s centre?

What is the staf fing going to be for this centre? Most important of all, when is the start-up date of thi s centre?

Thursday, October 6, 1988 Mr. Filmon: The purpose of thi s centre is to become a world focus on the whole concept of the Brundtland Comm ission , that is sustainable development development in concert with and in harmony with our environment, a sustainable development that ensures that anything we do, any decisions we take in this world in futu re will not damage our environment in order for it to have the sake of proper economic development. That is the whole thrust of this. It will involve education ; it will involve research.

It will involve the development of economic initiatives that are sustainable , that are environmentally sound and safe; and as such , Mr. Speaker , depending on the components involved , it could be larger , smaller , medium-sized. We expect to have the involvement of private sector individuals. We expected the private sector - (Interjection)- They are interested, many have contacted us. Senior people in this business community and throughout the country have said we want to be involved in this, it makes sense; it has the potential to make Canada a world leader and we want a part of it.

It is only the nay-sayers on the Opposition side, those people who think that- Mr. Speaker: Order , please. Mr. Filmon: -we are a have-not province, and want to keep us a have-not province, that cannot see the positive aspects of this proposal, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Order, please . May I remind the Honourable First Minister that answers to questions should be brief . *

(1345) Environment Round Table Participants Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): On July 27, we asked the Government's Minister of Environment (Mr. Connery) why he had not yet met with environmental groups to discuss the round table, and when would he meet with them in the future? At that point, besides the usual rhetoric we get from the Minister, he indicated that he would be meeting in the future with environment groups to propose names on the round table.

Six weeks later, we again asked the Minister of Environment why he had not met with environmental groups to discuss this very important issue, and again we got the same rhetoric that he had not met with any of the groups and he would do it in "due course." We asked the Premier (Mr. Filmon) last Friday whether that is acceptable standards for a Minister of his Government not to meet with the major components of a person's portfolio and the Minister did not give us an answer to that question . Is it the standards of this Government to not meet with the environmental groups with the Minister of Environment (Mr.

Connery); and, secondly, the standards of this First Minister (Mr. Filmon) that they would only reach one environmental group at almost midnight the day before the Minister is going to make the announcement , is that an indication that the Ministe r of Environment fumbled the issue, or was it just as an afterthough t to deal with the environmental groups in this province? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Because we wanted representation at the most senior level from a representative of the environmentalists of Manitoba , we have selected Mr.

Jack Dubois, who is the president of the Man itoba Environmenta l Network, which is an umbrella group covering 60 environmental groups in this province . It represents all of the environmental groups in this province . We would think that the Opposition would want to have somebody of that stature so that there would not be arguments between and among the 60 different environmental groups in this province as to which one of their groups should be represented . We chose the representative of the umbrella group of all 60, the president of that group, Mr.

Jack Dubois, because we could therefore ensure that all of those interests of the 60 environmental groups would be represented by the person who is the president of the umbrella group and that is why we made that decision . We think it is a good decision and we are sorry that the Opposition disagrees . Mr. Doer: The First Minister (Mr. Filmon) is totally twisting the issue. I think Mr. Jack Dubois is an excellent appointment and I have met with him on a number of occasions since the election . His Minister of Environment (Mr. Connery) has never met with any of the groups in Manitoba dealing with the environment.

Is that an acceptable standard for the First Minister for his Minister of Environment? Is that an acceptable standard? Does he expect that with the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) with his groups, with the Minister of IT and T (Mr. Ernst) with business groups? How does he accept this from the Minister of Environment? Mr. Filmon: All of my Ministers are committed to meet with the various groups in this province, all of their special interest groups. I just indicated there are 60 environmental groups. This is going to take a tremendous amount of time, effort and energy.

We have been in Session, Mr. Speaker, now for over two months, and during that period of time, all of our time is very committed to this House . We are committed to be here, to be prepared for all of the- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . The Honourable Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) will have ample opportunity in Question Period to pose his questions, and I think would give the Honourable First Minister the courtesy of answering the question. The Honourable First Minister . Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) has shown that his own assumptions are 1932

Thur sday, October 6, 1988 false by virtue of the fact tha t even yesterday in this House, his Member for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak) said that the Minister of Environment had met with the Clean Environment Commis sion on June 24. To come toda y and say he has met with no groups, he has met with nobody in the environmental sector, is absolutely false. He has made a commitment to meet with as many of the special interest groups as he possibly can. lt is only a matter of tim e, Mr. Speaker. Clearly, if we are in the House everyd ay, he canno t be meeting with environmental groups. Mr.

Speaker: The Honourable Member for Concord ia, on a point of order. Mr. Doer: The First Minister (Mr. Filmon) stated tha t the statement was false. If he will check Hansard on July 27, he will find that the Minister of Environ ment (Mr. Conne ry) admitted that he had not met with one environmental group. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Mem ber does not have a point of order. The Honourable Member for Concordia. Mr. Filmon: Was that a point of order, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Speaker: No. Mr. Doer: I am sorry that falsehoods are not a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

I guess the whole answers from the Members opposite would be expunged from the record. Environmental Concerns Gravure Graphics Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). The First Minister knows full well tha t there are three or four major environment groups in this province, but given the fact tha t the y had ignored them in terms of this process, my question is to the First Minister. I wrote the Minister of Environment (Mr.

Con nery) on Septem ber 1, dealing with Gravure Graphics and some of the stop-work orders that were going on with the chemicals, the materials there, and the request to move tha t mate rial. I raise tha t question with the First Minister because it was a constituent of his tha t had raised it to my atte ntion. Why has the Minister not responded to my letter of September 1? Why has the Minister not followed up on this issue in terms of the chem icals that are leaking into the ground? Why has the Minister not had this company move the material as has been demonstra ted to be done?

And why is this First Minister again accepti ng tha t kind of stan dard of behaviour from his Minister of Environment? Hon . Gary Filmon (Premier): To begin with, with respect to tha t so-cal led correct ion of the Minister, if he will check the record, he will find tha t the Minister of Environment did meet on the 24th of June with the Clean Environment Commission. So his facts are wrong. No. 2, I will take the question as noti ce with respect to Gravure Graphics. That matter was in the paper; there was information about that. If he has not had sufficient response on it, I will ensure tha t he gets it. Mr.

Speaker: The Honourable Member for Conc ordia, with a final supplement ary question. Mr. Doer: lt is insufficient information when I do not get a reply to a letter or th ere is no follow- up in an area that is clearly demonstrated to have insufficient - Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. • (1 350) Rafferty-Aiameda Project Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have a question? Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my last quest ion to the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) is this: When he was discussing the Sustai nable Centre to come to Manitoba-and I think it is a very positiv e initia tive, notwiths tanding the lack of detai l when he was discussing this very important project with the Prime Minis ter , did he raise the major environmental issue in this province, the Rafferty Aiameda Dam , so tha t we could inde ed have environmental concerns incorporated with economic development?

Did he raise the tang ible example of Manitoba and demand th at the Prime Minister overrule the federal Minister of Environment so our rhetoric would be consistent with indeed the real issues facing this province? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we have said consistently tha t we, in our discussions with the federal Gover nment, and when the y, on our behalf, with the Gove rnment of the United States, have been given -(Int erject ion� Mr. Speaker, I heard the question the first time. I do not need it repeated and shout ed at me, to try and shout me down from his seat.

Child Abuse School Investigations Mrs. lva Yeo (Stur geon Creek): My question is to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach). Just last Monday, I requested that this Honourable Minister extend his proposed inquiry into sexual abuse allegations in a private school to include a similar situation involving an abusing teacher in a Winnipeg 1 high school. In his response, the Minister indicated tha t this was one situation which occurred back in 19 86, which had nothing to do with sexual abuse and which was dealt with in an appropriate manner.

My suggestion to the Minister is tha t he should be certain as to the accuracy of his facts before he makes his statements in the House. Will the Minister, in light of these serious situations occurring in both public and independent schools, now 1933

Thursday, October 6, 1988 order a full scale investiga tion into sexual abuse related to our education cent res in the Province of Manitoba? Hon . Leonard Derkach (Min ister of Education): Mr. Speaker, this is a grave and serious matter . I would like to indicate to the Member opposite that I will get to the bottom of this matter entir ely and will have a comp lete report in due course as I have indicat ed.

I would like to also inform the House tha t this matter is now before the courts and to comment on it any further would perhaps comprom ise the hearings, and I do not think it is appropriate for me or any official, at this time, to make any further comments on it. Reporting Guidelines Mrs. lva Yeo (Stur geon Creek): Once again, I ask the Minister to dev elop gu idelines outlining steps for teac hers and administrators to follow should incidents be actively reported to them or which come to their att ention. Hon . Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): The guidelines are there. The legislation is in place.

I indicated to the Mem ber opposite tha t letters would be sent again to all schools, both private and public, to reiterate the legislation and the guidelines tha t had to be followed. I would like to indicate to the Member tha t has been done, the letters are on their way to the schools. Mrs. Yeo: Could I ask the Minister toda y to table the responses to the various schools, colleges and universities in the House? Mr. Derkach: I am afraid I do not understand the question. I would ask the Member to please clarif y the question. Mrs.

Yeo: For clarification, I am wondering if the Minister toda y could table the letter that was sent to all schools, college and un ivers itie s outlining the guidelines, if he could table that letter in the House tod ay. Mr. Derkach: I have indicated that the letters are on their way and I will provide the Member with a copy of the letter tha t is being sent. * (1 355) Crime Rate Increase Prevention Programs Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae).

Earlier this week, my Leader asked questions citing the shocking increase in the crime rate in this province put out by Statistics Canada. She got some expressions of concern and something was mentioned about action in due course. That is not good enough.

Let me recount some of the stat istics which Statistics Canada came up with: an 81 percent increase in violent crime between '78 and '8 7-t he next highest province is Saskatchewan with just 55 percent; a 55.6 percent rise in property offences for the same per iod- over 30 points higher than the national average; a 55.8 percent rise in Criminal Code offences-a gain, almost 30 points above the national average. This rate of crime is absolutely intolerable. Manitobans want law and order. They want their Ch ief Law Enforcement Officer to guarantee law and order.

My quest ion is, when will the Attorne y-Gener al's (Mr. McCrae) express ions of concern become action? Hon. James McCrae (Attorney -General): Mr. Speaker, the kind of the atre we are get ting here, I would suggest tha t when the next election is over the Honourable Mem ber is going to have to be looking at his options. He may indeed be looking at a career in drama, or more appropriately, comedy. In any event, for the purposes and for the benefit of th ose who depend on the Honourable Member, I suggest he keep whatever day job he has. The Honourable Member talks about crime rate and a shocking increase- Mr.

Spea ker: Or der, please. May I rem ind the Honourable Minister that answers to questions should deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, we talk about provoking debate, Sir. lt really stri kes me as somewhat odd that the Honourable Member should be coming along a little later after his Leader (Mrs. Carstairs), and certainly after the election campaign, and talking about shocking increases in crime in this province.

This is something tha t was very well-kno wn to Honourable Members on this side of the House long before the Honourable Member ever started talking about it; so he does not really need to come forward with any lectures for this Gove rnment. lt is a long-s tanding problem in Manitoba. lt is a problem which perhap s is highligh ted by better reporting mechanisms in this province as well, so that we know about a lot more crimes now than was previously the case. Obviously, that puts more pressure on our law enforcement system and our court system, and so on.

Work is going on with me in my discussions with Ch ief Step hen, Comm issioner Lunney, Mayor Norrie and others across the province. Our Gove rnment has set aside funds in this year's Estim ates and ther e will be announcements made. Mr . Edward s: lt is absolutely disgusting tha t the Attorne y-G eneral (Mr. McCrae) sees fit to stand up and call crime rates in this province comedy. That is what he wants to do. Tell that to the people of this city ; th ey will be happy to hear that. Mr. Speaker: Order , plea se; ord er, please. The Honourable Mem ber for St. James will kindly put his quest ion now. Mr.

Edwards: Un believable. The Attorn ey-General should be asham ed. They obviously need lectures, Mr. Speaker. That is clear. 1934

Thursday, October 6, 1988 Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Police Services Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber for St . James, with a question. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): An official in the Winnipeg Police Department recently gave the opinion tha t crime trends move across the countr y. Well, we know that the y are here and the y have stayed here; the y have settled here. My question is to the Att orney-G eneral (Mr. McCrae). Where are th ese crime prev ention programs tha t he promised?

What is he going to do about the fact tha t in spite of th ese increases in criminal act ivity in this province, Manitoba has lost police officers in the 10 years, despite an increase in population , and is now amongst the worst policed provinces in this countr y? Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General): Mr. Speaker, by his behaviour in the House tod ay, the Honourable Member has demonstrated that he has clearly lost control of himself and lost control of his sense of responsibility to the people of Manitoba. By raising issues in the way he does, he does more of a disservice than otherwise in this House.

The Honourable Member talks about lectures and tha t this Gover nment needs lectur es. I am really quite astounded at the Honourable Member's approach today to serious matters of policing and referring to it as comed y. I was making a reference to the Honourable Member perhaps doing better in the field of comedy rather than trying to deal with important issues in the way tha t he does in this House. The previous answer tha t I gave will st and. This Gover nment rem ains comm itted and far mo re committed than he and his Leader (Mrs.

Cars tai rs), certain ly, during the election campaign. lt is very easy for the Honourable Member to stand in this place and try . . . out of me, out of valid issues like this . . . This is a serious matter and the Honourable Member should approach it in tha t way. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. James, with a final supp lementary question. Mr. Edwards: Wake up, wake up! The problem is there. Why do you not do something about it? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for St. James, would you like to put your question now? Mr. Edwards: If the Attorne y-General (Mr.

McCrae) finds crime rates something to joke about, tha t is his business. I suggest the people of Manitoba will not be appreciative. Mr. Speaker: Order. *

(1400) Crime Prevention Programs for Seniors Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): My final quest ion is, Mr. Speaker, this time for the Minister responsible for Seni ors (Mr . Neuf eld). Socie ty relies on strong Governments to take strong act ion against criminals. Seniors are particularly worried about this drast ic rise in crime rates . Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I have recognized the Hon ourable Member for St. Ja mes for his final supp lementary question. May I remind the Honourable Mem ber tha t a supplementary question does not need a pream ble. The Honourable Member will kindly put his question now. Mr.

Edwards: My final supplementary for the Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr. Neufeld) is what crime prev ention programs will be introduc ed under his directorate, if any, to educate seniors on methods of crime prev ention, in particular in the home? Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General): Mr. Speaker, crime prev ention programs properly come under my auth ority and my jurisdiction as Attorney -General. The Honourable Member (Mr. Edwards) should- An Honour able Member: Wake up. Mr. McCrae: -wake up. Exactly. And he should follow his own advice.

The Honourable Member should also remem ber tha t part of crime prevention generally is to do what we can to educate the public as well. Also, I would like to refer the Honourable Member to crime prev ention programs such as Neighbourhood Watc h, if Manitobans would make it a habit of gett ing to know their neighbours a little better, for instance, and gett ing involv ed in programs like Neighbourhood Watc h. I know from my very own experience with my next door neighbour how well we two look after each other's properties, both when the neighbour is away or when the neighbour is home.

Programs like tha t can mean so much. If the Honourable Member would encourage Manitobans to get involv ed in programs that we have already, in addition to gett ing involv ed in programs that will be announced in the future, he would be doing more of a service to his constituents and to all of Manitobans. That includes elderly people and seniors in our province who can very well get involved in some of the se programs and want to. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Conflict-of-Interest Municipal Investigation Mr . John Plohman (Daup hin): Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Cummin gs).

Heather Eddy of lnglis, Manitoba, is a single parent with thr ee children whose only income was from gravel she sold to the Municipality of Shellmouth. This past sum mer her municipal councillor, Gene Nerbas, opened a gravel pit on his own land right next to hers 1935

Thursday, October 6, 1988 and is now puchasing gravel from his own gravel pit for roads in his own ward with municipal tax dollars . He is refusing to purchase any from Ms. Eddy who has no other source of income.

Section 5(1Xe) and

Section 16 of The Municipal Conflict of Interest Act, passed by our Government , clearly precludes this kind of influence peddling and pecuniary gain being engaged in by this councillor. On Septembe r 20, this Minister was sent a letter from Heather Eddy, outlining what she believes to be a blatant conflict of interest by this councillor, and I agree with her. Could this Minister indicate if he has ordered an investigation of this flagrant abuse of power by this councillor who is filling his own pockets while Heather Eddy has to go on social assistance to support herself and her three children? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Municipal Affairs): Mr. Speaker, those are very serious allegations that are being made by the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman). Because of the serious nature of these allegations I will assure you, assure the Member for Dauphin and ,; the Members of this House that we will seriously investigate and report our findings. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Dauphin, with a supplementary question . Mr. Plohman: These Members obviously have not seen the details , Mr. Speaker. A supplementary to the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Cummings). In view of the fact, Mr.

Speaker , that last month Heather Eddy protested this action by this councillor to her MLA, the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach), to his office, and the Minister of Education's staff discussed it with the MLA and subsequently advised her that there was no action that the MLA could take, I ask the Minister, did his colleague, the Minister of Education, the MLA for Roblin-Russell, contact him and seek his advice as Minister of Municipal Affairs on this conflict before advising his constituent, through his staff, that he did not want to get involved?

Does this Minister agree with the position of his colleague that there is nothing much that can be done on this serious matter? Mr. Cummings: I said I would take these allegations seriously and I will investigate them. If the Member wants to make allegations of this nature, he should be assured that we will be very responsible in how we approach this and determine if there has been some wrongdoing on the part of the council. Certainly, the lette r is not one that has crossed my desk personally . That is why I am taking any further information as notice so that I can give it back to the House .

Municipal Investigation Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Dauphin , with a final supplementary question. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): In view of the fact that the Minister of Municipal Affairs ' (Mr. Cummings) staff has simply written back to Heather Eddy and advised that they would look into this matter, and in view of the fact that-this is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) that his Minister of Education (Mr.

Derkach), through his staff, has said that he would not get involved in this matter, and meanwhile a serious conflict of interest is going on right under his Ministers' noses, will the First Minister instruct the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Cummings) to advise the rural municipality and this councillor that his Government will not tolerate this kind of behaviour?

Will he instruct his Minister to conduct a thorough investigation of this councillor's action to determine what action can be taken by this Government to undo this mess, to ensure justice for Heather Eddy, and to ensure that this kind of activity does not happen again at the municipal level? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): We have laws in place to ensure that when people do things wrong that they are given the full weight of the law in response to their actions. Mr.

Speaker, my Minister has already said we will have a full and complete investigation to find out whether or not the allegation of wrongdoing by the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) is an accurate one. I would suggest to him, before he becomes judge, jury and executioner, that he ask for this matter to be handled in a proper fashion. Raising it here in the Legislature, smearing an individual over something we know nothing about-we do not have both sides of the story-this is a very serious .. .. I would just ask him to be reasonable about this situation. Let the Minister investigate it.

Let him bring back the full report. If he is then not satisfied with the response, then let him make his allegations all over and undertake whatever other public actions he wants to. But this Minister will bring back the report after a full investigation . *

(1410) Home Care System Policy Guidelines Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Last week, the Leader of the New Democrats presented the circumstance of three individuals who had some concerns over their level of home care services. I would like to reply to the Leader of the New Democrats (Mr. Doer) today that in the first instance the individual had been receiving service from the Victorian Order of Nurses for assistance to treat an ulcer on her leg, and that the ulcer was a rather protracted one and required a prolonged period of service by the VON, and service was being provided once a week.

The ulcer is being cured by the treatment. The assessment by the VON was that further visitations for the treatment directly by them would not aid the healing process and advised the individual and her husband so, and were prepared to close off the case after having communicated with the individual 's doctor. Under this circumstance, we are having VON do a reassessment to assure that their init ial judgment was a correct one. 1936

Thursday, October 6, 1988 On the next two cases wh ich the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carst airs) drew to both my Leader, the Premier's (Mr. Filmon) att ention, and my att ention, by copy of the same letter, the two individuals involved were not going to receive further homemaker services. This was a decision made after some nine months in the first individual's case where the service was no longer deemed appropria te becaus e of his circumstanc es in the home.

What has happened in both the last two cases, pursuant to the 19 85 initiati ve tha t where in communit ies the support services for seniors would establish non profit cleaning services for provision of care in the communit y, both the se individuals, now th at the non profit home care services have been established as per the 19 85- 1 986 direction, tha t homemaking services, when available on a non-pr ofit basis, would be made available to those clients, and in both of thos e instances tha t decision was made. Tax Reduction Program Rebates Mr. Speaker: The Member for Selkirk will have time for one quest ion.

Mrs. Gwen Charles (Selkirk): This Gover nment has commit ted itself to a tax reduction program which would, in their words, decrease substant ially provincial school taxes on farm land. However, it falls short of this aim. Some farmers are receiving rebates, some are not, because a rebate is not based on land usage but on land zoning. As a result, rebates are being issued to developers and non-r esidents and someti mes to th ose living out of province. My question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Cummi ngs) is: Will the Minister explain how such an overs ight took place?

Will the Minister issue rebates this year to th ose Manitoban farmers to whom this program was originally directed ? Hon. Glen Cummings (Min ister of Municipal Affairs): All farmers do qualify. If the Mem ber has examples of where farmers have not qualified, I would be prepared to look at them carefully.

The way the regulation is written at this time and the way it is being administered , there is one part to it tha t perhaps the Member is not aware of; tha t is, we will be contact ing the mun icipalities to advise them tha t where the land is not coded for agricultural purposes but is part of an ongoing agricultu ral enterprise, tha t it will also be eligible for the discount. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Que stions has expired. ORDER S OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye (Mr. Pankratz), tha t Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presen ted and carrie d and the House resolved itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Su pply to be gr anted to Her Majest y, with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Commun ity Services; and the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenko) in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture. * (14 20) INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr.

Speaker: Before proceeding into Supply, I would like to direct Honourable Members' atten tion to the Speaker's gallery where we have with us today Dr. Takao Fusayama, a world-renowned and distinguished teacher, clinician and researcher in the field of Op erativ e Dentis try and Chairman of the Interna tional Relations Comm ittee of the Japan Dental Association. Professor Fusayama is on his way to an international conf erence in Washington, D.C., and stopped in Winnipeg to lecture at the University of Manitoba Faculty of Dentis try last night.

On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this aft ernoon, sir. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-COMMUNITY SERVICES Mr. Chairman, Harold Gilleshammer: I call to order the Comm ittee on Commun ity Services. We are dealing with item 4. Child and Fam ily Servic es, (

a) Administra tion:

(1) Salaries $1 98,900.00. Shall the item pass? (Agreed) It em

(2) Other Expen ditur es $ 23 ,000- pass. Item 4.(

b) Child and Fam ily Support: Provides administrative, program and funding support for child protection and family support services delivered by child and family service agencies, regional offices, and other specialized service agencies. ( 1) Salaries $ 1, 866,600- shall the item pass? The Honourable Member for Os borne. Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): No. Just as I begin, I would ask whether or not the grants list for this item is available, the grants under Ext ernal Agencies: Service Grants -Other External Agencies? Hon.

Cha rlotte Oleson (Mi nister of Com mu nity Services): The list was distri buted when last we met, but I have another copy the Member can have if he wants one. Mr. Alcock: No, I have this. This is not the one I am after, I am afraid. it is the detai ling of that. Mrs. Oleson: Perhaps the Member could clarify exactly what list ing he wants. Mr. Alcock: If I could draw the Minist er's att ention to page 66 of the Supp leme ntary Inf ormat ion for Legislativ e Review, under Other External Agencies- 1937

Thu rsday, October 6, 1988 Service Gr ants th ere is an amount of $1,213 ,000 referenced. I would also simply remind the Minister tha t I asked for this list in Supp lement ary Supply. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) promised to supply it to me. I referenced this list the very first day I sat in this comm ittee. Now the y are at tha t item, it would be quite helpful to have that particular list.

While the Minister is doing that, I also asked for the list referenced under Commu nity Social Services which again I was promised would be forthcom ing and again I have not seen as of yet. lt is back in Com munity Social Services. Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, I apologize to the Mem ber if there was information tha t he had asked for tha t we did not have available for him.

The General Purpose Gr ants: Health Scienc es Centre, 732, 700-this is the '88 -89 allocation by the way; City of Winnipeg for Rossbrook House, 10 6, 10 0; Foster Parents' Association, 247,200; Manitoba Metis Federation, 14 5,200; Winnipeg Receiving Resources Inc. , 294,600; Young Parents' Commun ity Centre, 69,000; Nativ e Women's Transition Centre, 51,5 00, making a total of 1, 646,300.00. Mr. Alcock: I wonder if at the same time the Minister could give me the same figures for '8 7-88. Mrs.

Oleson: For the HeaHh Sciences Centre, 31 5,8 00; City of Winnipeg for Rossbrook House, 10 3,0 00; Foster Pare n ts' Asso ciatio n , 224,200; Manitoba Metis FE!deration 14 5,200; Winnipeg Receiving Resources Inc., 448, 400; Young Parents' Communi ty Centre, 67,000; Nativ e Women's Transition Centre, 45,000, for a total of 1 ,348,600.00. Mr. Alcock: Just a couple of questions on that list, I note that Winnipeg Receiving Resources has decreased a considerable amount. I presume this is because of the closure and transfer of beds and units. Mr. Oleson: That is the case. lt is a wind-do wn. Mr.

Alcock: In the case of the Nati ve Women's Transition Centre, the increase is above the 3 percent offered across agencies. What is the reason for the additional money? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman , it included a one- time grant of $5,0 00 to replace their furnace. Mr. Alcock: In the case of the MMF, I notice that the y have received no increase at all. * (14 40) Mrs. Oleson: We are in discussions with them about additional funding right now but you are correct . lt is the same money that is listed . Mr.

Alcock: Then am I correct to understand that this ite m, the MMF, is not finalized yet , tha t there could be more money forthcom ing, or are the discussions to reduce the size of the grant? 1938 Mrs. Oleson: The final amount is being dete rmined, but it is more money th at the y would be get ting. Mr. Alcock: I was pleased to note in the House and again see in Hansard tha t the Minister has asked the agencies to withhold making any cuts in their budgets pending a review. Some of the earlier discussions tha t have taken place have been put on hold until she has received all of the information.

Does this mean tha t any deficits incurred by the agencies up until such time tha t decision is made will be covered by the department? Mrs. Oleson: lt is all under consideration. They were asked to give a report through the director of just what their financial position was now, what it was projected to be, given the funding that is allocated . This is all under discussion. Mr. Alcock: I appreciate that there is a lot of negotiation and discussions under way right now. However, at the same time, the agencies have to operate and th ey have to exist day by day.

As the y have been told not to take any corrective act ion to address operating levels in excess of what their preliminary information was from the department, the y have been told not to make th ose adjustments, I am assuming then that the Gove rnment is prepared to cover what deficits exist up until such time as it makes its decision. Mrs. Oleson: lt is all under discussion. I appreciate that the agencies of course want to know, as well as the Members of the Opposition want to know, but it is all under discussion.

They have been directed not to make any precipitous moves like laying off staff or cut ting programs or anyth ing. I should be able to speak with them in the very near futur e as to what will be taking place. Mr. Alcock: I assume tha t the Minister perhaps maybe misunderstands my question. Right now, the agencies were originally informed tha t th ey were going to receive a certain level of funding, which a number of them have indicated to the Minister would result in serious deficits.

They have also indicated to the Minister corrective act ion tha t the y w ould take in order to manage with in the limits that the Minister has est ablished. Now, I realize tha t th ere need to be discussions ongoing and I am not asking about the details of th ose discussions. I am simply asking in the interi m, till such time as the Minister has been able to make tha t decision, the se agencies on a daily basis are continuing to accrue deficits. I think tha t as it is

an act ion by the department tha t has asked them not to take action, I would assume tha t the department is then prepared to cover th ose deficits. Mrs. Oleson: The deficits have been identified and t hat is part of the discussion as well, how tha t matter will be dealt with. I am sorry, I cannot give the Member a more definitive answer at the moment. But when things are under way and I have not had a chance to get back to the agencies with information tha t I wish to give them, I cannot really give the Member the answer he is looking for. Mr. Alcock: Perhaps I could just try to explain it one more tim e. I am not asking for the final decision on

Thu rsday, October 6, 1988 the deficits. I realize tha t is difficult and complex and has been a long-sta nding issue. I am, however, asking about the deficits tha t are being incurred toda y as a result of the decision taken by the Minister and her department until such time as they are able to make a final decision on the budgets for the se agencies. Will tho se deficits that are occurring right now as we sit here be covered, as the y are being incurred at the request of the Minister? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, I realize what you mean.

As you indicated , yes, it was at the request of myself tha t the y operate tha t way. Yes, in tha t case. Mr. Alcock: In the funding formulas tha t are current ly used to support the agencies and particula rly in their service and administra tion lines, I presume tha t this review is going to be looking at th ose things. Would one of the items be to bring the level of support for an item, such as the payroll tax, up to the level of which the tax is currently collected ? Would tha t item be brought up to today's stan dards? Mrs. Oleson: That is one of the items tha t is part of the problem.

There are many parts to it, and I am meeting again with the presidents on the 20th to try and ident ify just exactly how we will work from here. I do not say we are going to resolve it on the 20th. What I meant was tha t is the process we are going to start for next ye ar's identification of what the requirements will be for next year. Because we have not even finished this year's Estima tes, and we will have a coffee break and then we will be into next year's. Mr. Alcock: We will try to give you a decent coffee break. We will endeavour to do tha t.

The Minister, both in the House and in commit tee, and the Premier, have referenced the sort of chronic natur e of deficits and have raised concerns about administra tion, asking the question as to whether or not the administra tion is the most efficient form tha t could be used in the current system . I am wondering, just to get a sense of how serious this problem is, if the Minister could give us some idea of the service and administrati on deficits tha t the various agencies have incurred.

I would like to look at tha t for the last few years the se agencies have been operating, not at this point the child maintenance line or the provincial grants, simply the service and administra tion budgets which are the administrativ e budgets of the agencies. Mrs. Oleson: In '8 7-88, the deficit in the administration service line was $422 ,000.00. To date, it is projected that it will be $1. 7 million. * (1 450) Mr. Alcock: I have the ov erall figur es for th e department. However, all of the agencies- .t here are eight private agencies in particula r.

I do not think the Minister needs to spend as much time on Jewish Child and Family but, of the eight major mandated agencies, I would be interested in kn owing what the service and administra tion recorded deficit of the eight agencies is for the three years tha t th ey have been- Mrs. Oleson: For the thr ee years? I could get that information for the Member. Mr. Alcock: I appreciate that is a more det ailed piece of information than might be instantly avai lable. Perhaps, Mr.

Chairperson, if you would, I will reference a quantity of information and, if it is going to take longer than toda y to get it, then we could come back to this item on Tuesday. Mrs. Oleson: The Member might wish to know tha t at the end of '8 7- 88-i t would be March 31, 1988- the cumulativ e surplus was $ 141 ,830 for the agencies and now we are at the point of a 1.7 million deficit. Mr. Alcock: That is the cumulativ e surplus for the eight agencies referenced. Might we have the individual surpluses for the eight agencies referenced? Mrs.

Oleson: We could provide that to the Member. lt will just take a moment, if you have another question in the meantime. Mr. Alcock: I would like the same information for the child maintenance budgets for the agencies. I note tha t the staff are referencing a spreadsheet that seems to have a lot of tha t information on it. Perhaps if I could have tha t information, then it would save me asking for it piece by piece. I am after child maintenance, administra tion, the preven tion grants and I would like the Children in Care figures. Mrs.

Oleson: We can take th ose quest ions and get tha t information later for the Mem ber perhaps, because it takes a while to get it all separated and give it to you individually. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Chairman, if the Minister will agree, I would be prepared to provide in writ ing a list of information tha t I would like. I also would be prepared, given other questi ons, to give leave to move beyond this it em if we get to tha t point toda y and come back to it having given the Minister till next week to get tha t information. Mrs. Oleson: Sounds reasonable to me. Mr. Alcock: I will provide tha t list. Mr.

Chairman: We are moving then to item 4.( b)(2). Mr. Alcock: No. Mr. Chairman: On item 4.(b)( 1) Salaries-pass. Mr. Chairman: 4.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures, $ 1,17 9,8 00, shall the item pass? Mr. Alcock: I would just like to ask the Minister, in this line, the total amount of money tha t has been put 1939

Thursday, October 6, 1988 aside for the comput erization of the Child and Family Services records. Mrs. Oleson: The figure is 665, 800.00. Mr. Alcock: What is the antici pated completion date of th at project ? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, the original target on tha t was 19 92, but I have asked staff to provide me with a plan tha t we can get tha t done sooner. My fear is th at the thing will be outda ted before it is in place if we leave it any longer. So staff are giving me some proposal that we can tr y and accomplish that faster. Mr. Alcock: I have nothing but sympathy for the Minister on tha t one.

The original date actually was April 1 of'85, and one feels increasingly tha t it is outda ted . The Capital amou nts that are referenced here, $85,200, could the Minister tell us what tha t is for? Mrs. Oleson: Would the Member like to go to the next question while the staff are get ting tha t list? Mr. Alcock: Sure. In the discussion in Estima tes on Tuesday and again in the House, both the Minister and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) have ident ified this problem of what they feel is a redundancy in the administ rat ion of particu larly the six agencies in the City of Winnipeg.

I believe it is t ti e six agencies in the City of Winnipeg that are being referenced. I guess my first question would be-i s tha t concern confined to the six agencies or does tha t include all eight agencies? Mrs. Oleson: Would the Member clarify his question, please? Mr. Alcock: Both in a speech to the Social Planning Council and in the House, the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) and also the Minister in the House have indicated general concerns about -1 think the question tha t has been asked is, is ther e maybe some concern th at ther e are now six administra tions in place and tha t there may be a duplication of service, and tha t the y are examining this because of th ese concerns, as one of the strateg ies to deal with what the y define as a chronic deficit problem in the administra tion of the agencies in the City of Winnipeg? Now my question is, is tha t concern confined to the six agencies in the City of Winnipeg or is tha t concern general to all eight agencies? Mrs.

Oleson: My concern is mainly with the six agencies because the y seem to be the ones tha t are having the most difficulty with their finances, and any time you have such a major problem as we are seeing ident ified at the moment,-a nd it has been identified over the years, the financial problems-then you have to look at everything, to see what is the root cause. That is what we are att empting to do. Mr.

Alcock: Is the problem with deficits, chronic deficits in the service and administ rat ion area, is that problem shared by the two agencies tha t exist outside the City of Winnipeg, Cent ral Manitoba and Western Manito ba? Mrs. Oleson: Not to the extent tha t it is in the city. There is a difference, of course, in the way these agencies have to operate. The city obviously has different problems than the rurals. Mr. Alcock: Is it fair to assume, then, in this year as we move to solve this problem, that the CS of Central Manitoba and the CS of Western Manitoba will be exempted from tha t action? Mrs.

Oleson: We are looking at the whole pictur e of all the agencies, but as I indicated before, mainly at the moment my main concern is with the six agencies and tha t we try to get them on a foot ing so tha t the y can operate, and tha t we do not come up with the same problem every year. In the short term we have to solve the problem for this year, but as soon as we possibly can we have to get at identif ying how we can work in the years to come with some semblance- I do not expect every year tha t no deficit would ever occur.

I am not saying that, but ther e should be some way of funding them so tha t the y are on a solid footing and so tha t there does not have to be this constant problem which has been happen ing for a long time. Mr. Alcock: I certai nly agree with the Minister. lt has been a problem for several years and I am pleased to see tha t this Govern ment is moving to solv e the problem. I would just like to tr y to get an understan ding of how the y have defined the problem. What areas in the Service and Administra tion budget are causing this problem? Mrs.

Oleson: In the Service and Admin. line it is mainly the funding formula with regard to staffing tha t we can ident ify at the moment. The Member was asking about the $85,000 capital expenditur es. I can give him a breakdown. There is 8. 7 in building improvements, 28.7 in furnishings, 47.8 in equipment, for a total of 85.2, and tha t is at 11 4 Garry. * (15 00) Mr. Alcock: To come back to the question we were dealing with.

If I understand then, the problem tha t has been ident ified tha t is creating what has been defined as a chronic deficit problem in the Service Administra tion budgets of the agencies relates to the formula for allocating staff to the agencies or the way in which the staf fing formula is derived? Mrs. Oleson: lt could be both. If it has not been fully identified, it could be both. But, no, we are in the process of identif ying it now.

I do not want to sound evasive, but I do not want to give one answer and then come to another conclusion later when we have st udied it furth er, because we are in the middle of stu dying it. Mr. Alcock: I accept tha t answer; it is fair enough. lt is a complex issue. 1940

Thu rsday, October 6, 1988 At the same time, the Minister and the Premier have felt tha t the y had enough information to make general sta tements about redundancies which has certainly, to those of us tha t have listened to th ose state ments, have felt tha t it identified areas of duplicati on of service. I am wondering if the Minister could share with us on what basis th ose stat ements were made. What areas of redundancy have been identified tha t allowed the Minister or the Premier to make those stat ements? Mrs. Oleson: Statements were made more in the context of if there were redundancies discovered .

As I had indicated before, we are st ill in the process of reviewing the whole thing. Mr. Alcock: At this point then, th ere are not specific red und ancies tha t you are concerned about. If I understand you, you are concerned about the general area of the deficits? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, I think the Member should realize tha t when you come upon or are informed of massive deficits and funding problems, then you look at all the aspects and tr y to ascert ain just what the problem is and then once you ha ve ident ified the problem clearly, then you have to look at the remedies.

We do not want to be precipitous in doing anything before we have it clearly ident ified why there are these deficits. There is certainly some indication of why at the moment. As I said before, we are in the process of dealing with the immediate and then we have to deal with the long te rm. Mr. Alcock: This has been ident ified, and I am referring specifically to the Service Administra tion budgets of these agencies as a chronic problem of these agencies. Yet to the end of the previous fiscal year, the agencies come out of tha t with $141 ,000 surplus.

There is an apparent inconsistenc y here in a sense tha t they come through to this year with what is a considerable surplus and then the next year, they are in an enormous deficit. What has occurred in this one year tha t has created this problem? Mrs. Oleson: The surplus I gave to the Mem ber was after ther e was a $424,000 bail out at the end of March and then some of them then recorded a surplus. What I was indicating to him, tha t we go from tha t much of a surplus into that deficit, I was tr ying to give him a pictur e of just how serious this matter was. Mr.

Alcock: In the six agencies referenced in the City of Winnipeg, have all of them had chronic ongoing deficits in Service and Administra tion? Mrs. Oleson: Staff indicate five out of the six. Mr. Alcock: That will be part of the information forthcom ing. I would like to just move briefly to the area of Prevention Grants. I have read what the Minister had to say on Tuesday about the Prevention Grants. As I unde rstand, they are crea ting a fund now in the directorate under the administration of the director of Child and Family Services, and agencies will then be able to apply for the se monies.

How does tha t improve the efficiency? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, I intend to meet with the agencies, and we will go over the criteria for the use of the funds and so forth. But when he says the efficiency-t here were agencies tha t did not use all of their funds. They were kept as a surplus carry over of different years. So there is an accumu lated surplus of $500,000 in tha t Communi ty Outr each. We felt it would be better to do it in this way, criteria being established to reflect the original int ent of, as I understand it, the original int ent of the Commu nity Outr each was for programs for preve ntion.

The agencies will certai nly have input into the criteria and the y will be able to apply it. In fact, the y may be able to get more money in some cases than the y were before; tha t is a possibility. Also, ther e were agencies th at did not have access to tha t Outr each money and the y will now have access to it. Mr. Alcock: The fund is var iously referenced as being cut by $1 57 ,000 and existing programs being covered. Is it the Minister's estima te tha t the fund tha t was budgeted for thi s year minus the $1 57,000 is adequate to cover all existing programs? Mrs.

Oleson: The comm itment is tq meet all their commit ments for the end of the year and if tha t is not sufficient then we will cover them. Mr. Alcock: I certainly appreciate hearing that. I mean ther e are a lot of very important programs being covered by that. I would like to suggest, however, that one of the reasons agencies accumulated th ose surpluses is because of inadequacies in funding in other areas. They were quite concerned.

I know some of them tha t opted to do that, tha t th ey were having to bulwark expenditu res and Child Maintenance, and Service and Administra tion with monies tha t should have rightly gone to Prev ention. Should tha t turn out to be the case and should we solve the problem in Service and Administration deficits and Child Maint enance deficits, is the Minister prepared to return responsibility for tha t fund to the six agencies? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, tha t could be considered, and I realize tha t part of the money was probably sometimes used to cover deficits.

I would like to really get this chronic deficit problem solved. Then we could think of the other aspects of it. This is really a small component. That $1 57,000, for instance, is not going to go very far to cover the deficit. (The Act ing Chairman, Mr. Edward Helwer, in the Cha ir.) Mr. Alcock: I appreciate that, although I would suggest to the Minister tha t the amount of money used for Prev ention is a very important amount. Mrs. Oleson: Yes, I recognize that. Mr. Alcock: lt has been used very effectively by tho se agencies tha t have chosen to use it. I guess I am 1941

Thursday, October 6, 1988 wondering, has the Minister had time to acquaint herself with the various programs tha t are funded under tha t grant? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, some of them, not every one intima tely of course, I have not had the time. But I do know of some of them, yes. Mr. Alcock: If we could ask to pass the Maint enance, if you want. The Act ing Chairman (Mr . Helwer): 4.( b)

(3) Maintenance of Children, $40, 722,000- pass. * (15 10 ) Mr. Alcock: Can the Minister tell us the current time or at least at the date of the Annual Report, Decem ber of '87 it would be, how many children were in the care of all the agencies in Manitoba? � Mrs. Oleson: 3,748-t hat was the end of December , '88. Mr. Alcock: Is tha t all children in care or children in pay care? Mrs. Oleson: lt is all children in care. Mr. Alcock: Not being the critic in this area, I may just be unaware of it, is the Annual Report for the department been tabled yet? Mrs. Oleson: No, it will soon be tabled . Mr.

Alcock: Would it be possible to have it tabled before the end of this departm ent's time in Estima tes? Mrs. Oleson: I will look into that. lt may be possible. Mr. Alcock: In the Annual Report there is a table identifying abused children in the Province of Manitoba. Can you tell us what th ose stats are for '87? Mrs. Oleson: Would the Member like to go to another question while we are gett ing tho se stats for him? Mr.

Alcock: In the Estima tes on Tuesday, when you were discussing the Child Protect ion Centre, and you talked about a very substan tial and I think a very appropriate increase in support for tha t centre, you indicated tha t th ere was a sum of $400- and-some thous and tha t was given to the Child Protect ion Centre to address the problems of child abuse. I would ask, is it envisioned that th ere would be an expansion in their role or is this simply to give them the resources to continue to provide the same service in light of increased num bers? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, the exact number amount was $370,000.00.

I think I used an approximate amount the other day. Mr. Alcock: Yes, you did. Mrs. Oleson: Which gives a total of $702-some thin g thousa nd. That is to cover existing problems. I do not believe tha t really gives them any room for expansion. Mr. Alcock: I am not surprised. They were seriously underfunded for several years and the y do provide a very important central service to the system. The question is tha t money would go simply to see that there is tim ely and adequate response by medical pract it ioners and such to identify cases of physical and sexual abuse.

This is simply giving them the staff resources necessary to continue the work tha t th ey already do but perhaps to cont inue in the more ti mely fashion? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, to manage the existing volume. Mr. Alcock: So tha t there is no change in their role? They are not now handling cases in a way tha t the y would not have handled or taking on responsibilities tha t were formally shared by the other agencies? Mrs. Oleson: No. If we had not given them this increase, they would have had to cut back because the y had been underfunded and th ey would have had to cut back on services. Mr.

Alcock: I already said I certai nly applaud the Minister for tak ing this act ion and it is long overdue. Given that the Child Protect ion Centre is a resource to the whole system and tha t the y do interact, and the y do feel the pressure by the tremendous increases in the number of kids coming in as a result of physical or sexual abuse, but it is the agencies that deal with th ese children. They are the ones who provide the case management and the family support trea tment such as may be provided.

Are increases also antici pated in the staffi ng resources available to the agencies to provide the suppor t and care for th ese children? Mrs. Oleson: There were 14 new staff added part way thr ough last year and of course tha t has been annualized this year to try to address the workload. But tha t is something we are looking at, is workload, because the agencies are all saying there are more children coming into care. Obviously, th ere is more pressure on them in their workload so tha t is something we are looking at. Mr. Alcock: I note the Minister's comments about workload and ratios of staff.

I am a little confused about one thing. The Minister wrote to agencies and indeed met with agencies, changing staff allocations based on what was perceived to be inequit ies in workload. There was a reference to reducing the numb er of staff available to Central Manitoba because of what was perceived to be a lighter workload in tha t agency and giving staff to the Northw est Agenc y because of perceived inadequacies in the support available to them for the same thing. What were th ose ratio s based on? Mrs. Oleson: The rat io was originally set at 1 to 28.

I can give the Member the ratios as of April 1, 19 85, and at March 31, 19 88. In the Northeast Winnipeg Family 1942

Thu rsday, October 6, 1988 Child Extended Social Services, in'85 it was 1 to 26, and at the end of March 19 88, 1 to 36; in North west , in'85 it was 1 to 26, and the end of March '88 it was 1 to 36; Child and Family Services of West Winnipeg, again 1 to 26 in'8 5, and 1 to 35 at the end of March '88; Winnipeg South, again 1 to 26 in'85, and I to 41 at the end of March '88; Child and Family Services of Eastern Manitoba, 1 to 23 in Apri1'85, and 1 to 29 at the end of March '88; Child and Family Services of Central Winnipeg, April'85, 1 to 26, and at the end of March '88 it was 1 to 30.

So you can see tha t there has been considerable change in the workload patterns in tho se years. Central Manitoba at the same tim e, 1 to 18 ; it is 1 to 22 now, after the adjustment tha t was made. Nort hwest Agency was in desperate need of th ree more staff to cover their workload, which had been recommende d by the Reid Report. As the Member has alluded to, in centr al Manitoba, there was a surplus and we felt tha t we could help one agency out tha t way. Their workload is now a little higher because of it. But it is one to 34 in Northw est as a result of the change. Mr.

Alcock: Sorry, the one to 18 figure, tha t was a March '88 figure. This is for central Manitoba. And the one to 22 is a result of the change? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, tha t is correct. Mr. Alcock: The figu res for western Manitoba, Brandon-1 guess you do not have the Apri1'85 figures for that? Mrs. Oleson: We would have to get them for you. We do not have them right now. * (1 520) Mr. Alcock: I just have a question about one thing. Your own figures suggest tha t South Winnipeg had the highest staff child ratio of all the agencies in the province and yet you chose to help out Northwest but gave no remedy to South.

Now, on what was tha t based? Mrs. Oleson: The reason tha t was done was as a result of the Reid Report reques ting it, recommending it rather . lt was a commitment by the previous Minister . Actually, I believe it hired the thr ee people. They had acted on the recommendation. The whole thing, as you are aware from the figures that I had given you , the whole thing does need review. Mr.

Alcock: I should mention to the Minister, I am a little concerned about a series of what appear to be actions to alleviate problems in other parts of the province but not in Winnipeg South. lt would be our position that Winnipeg South has been singled out for some discriminator y action we believe. I will come back to that. The case ratios here, what kind of cases are th ey based on? I notice in the Estima tes on Tuesday, you talked about children in care and families receiving service. Mrs. Oleson: Could he just clarify his question please, sorry? Mr.

Alcock: In coming to these ratios of one to 36, and one to 22, and one to 41, you need some kind of criteria to estab lish that. I understand from your answers on Tuesday that the cases tha t were used to det ermine the counts were th ose cases where a child was in care and those cases where a family was receiving service. My quest ion is are th ose the only two types of cases tha t were used in dev eloping th ose standards? Mrs. Oleson: I could give the Mem ber the method of case count if tha t would help. Agency case counts are presently comput ed from a monthly agency report.

Agency case counts include number of children in care, number of families under superv ision, number of unma rried parent cases and does not include adoption cases, post adoption service, support to foster homes. That was not what he asked? Are you indicating tha t? Mr. Alcock: That is precisely what. I am pleased tha t the Minister keeps her notes because that is exact ly the same note tha t she read into the record on Tuesday, October 4. That just proves tha t you are exceptionally well informed and I am pleased about that. I just have a quest ion about that, if I may.

You did not choose to include adopt ive cases, post-adoptive service or support to foster homes. Can I ask why? Mrs. Oleson: I am sorry, I did not hear your question. Mr. A lco ck: You did not choos e-i f you look at your note there, halfway thr ough it, it says the information does not include adoptive cases, post-adopt ive service or support to foster homes. Mrs. Oleson: The Member indicated, why did I choose? I did not choose. This has been the formula, the method tha t has been in place. That is one reason we are looking at it.

This has been the way tha t the case count has beeri done, the workload has been measured, so it is not something tha t I chose. Mr. Alcock: I would accept tha t correction. Cer tainly I would not suggest tha t the Minister had done. I guess my quest ion though is, why are th ose cases not included in determ ining workload of the agency? Mrs. Oleson: lt was not inclu ded when the decentral ization took place and, for whatever reason, I do not know. Mr . Alcock: So then is it the intention of the Govern ment to include them now? Mrs.

Oleson: lt is my intention to work with the agencies, in consultation with the agencies to define a way of measuring workload. Mr. Alcock: If the agencies were to ask to have adoption cases, post-ad optive service or support to foster homes included, the Minister would be willing to consider tha t positiv ely? Mrs. Oleson: I would certai nly be willing to consider it. I certai nly want to work with the agencies to get the best pos sible formula. 1943

Thursday, October 6, 1988 For the Member's information, I have the West man case ratio, if he wants it now. In April'85 it was 1- 30 and in April '88, 1- 34. Mr. Alcock: Given tha t post-adopt ive service, which is an important and relatively new phenomenon is not included in the support tha t agencies presently receive, where do people go to receive tha t service at the present time? Mrs. Oleson: Agencies provide the service but it is just not included in the formula for caseload count. Mr. Alcock: So then on adoptions, if someone wishes to adopt a child, where do th ey go for service? Mrs. Oleson: The agencies.

Mr. Alcock: Are the agencies presently required to provide support to foster homes? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. Mr. Alcock: So in all th ree areas, the agencies are expected to pick up this workload. We have indicated workload ratios here that are wildly in excess of the stan dards tha t were set before, and yet th ey under represent the amount of stress tha t the agencies are currently under. Would that be a fair state ment? Mrs .. Oieson: The system has been in place since the agencies were set up.

As I said before, the whole thing is being looked at with a view to workload, to just see how we can better ident ify what is workload, and of course, following that, how best to fit it within the budget. (Mr. Chairman in the Chair.) Mr. Alcock: The Minister references occasionally tha t the se problems were in place prior to her becoming the Minister and I certainl y acknowledge that. I am not suggesting that these have been created by the Minister.

However, they do indicate, or one rather simple analysis would suggest that the workload ratio s of 1- 36, 1- 41, 1- 35, such as the y are, seriously underrepresent the amount of stress or work tha t an individual worker in the agency is expected to carry. Mrs. Oleson: The issue has to be addressed of when a case is a case because there is no way of measuring tha t at the moment. With regard to the funding formula, it is used across all agencies so tha t it is valid. From th at point of view, it is valid in comparing the agencies because the same funding formula is used for all of them.

No, it certa inly does not measure stress. That would be a hard thing to measure anyway, I mean definit ively. I recognize the stress that all the staff are under and we certai nly appreciate tha t the y do a very difficult job, and often un der very difficult circumstances. Mr. Alcock: lt is curious to me tha t adoption cases are not counted , particularly given the current stress on adoption as an alterna tive to abortion, and how seriously th at issue is taken. Yet we seem to provide no support to families seeking to adopt or to young women choosing to give up children for adoption . Mrs. Oleson: Mr.

Chairman, the adoption cases are counted and the y are part of the work of the agency. lt is just in the funding formula tha t th ey are not considered. They are st ill count ed as part of the job th at is done. Mr. Alcock: The agencies are expected to carry out that work but the y are not funded to do it? Mrs. Oleson: The same formula was used in'8 5 when th ese were set up. lt was just a funding mechanism. I would not begin to understand why it was put in place that way but it was one to 28 th at was adopted at that time. No doubt it had-if I stud ied it, it has some relevancy.

The agencies are expected to perform these services. lt is not listed as part of the funding formula, the th ree that I have mentioned: the adoption, post adoption and the support to foster homes. But the y do that work. * (1 530) Mr. Alcock: Actually having passed my 40th birthda y, my memory may be failing me, but I think if the Minist er-a nd I am aware tha t two of her staff were not in the positions the y hold now at that time.

I think if the y check, they will find tha t funding formula was created as a result of a working group that did a case count review about two years ago, or a year and a half ago, not in 19 85. Mrs. Oleson: Staff indicate tha t it might have been one to 27.9 before but it may have been changed a couple of years ago to one to 28. Maybe we are being facetious. Mr. Alcock: lt is the figures tha t were given, the one to 36 and one to 41 figures tha t I think the Minister will find come out of a caseload review that was done recently . The decision to use family and children care cases was one tha t was made recently.

Mrs. Oleson: I will take that as information from the Member. Mr. Alcock: Can the Minister give us a sense of the length of time it takes right now to get a post-ad option search? Mrs. Oleson: lt was indicated tha t there is a backlog of about 800 cases at the moment. Depending on the case, it would take about two years. That is not good and tha t is something tha t we are looking at, too. In the instanc e where th ere is a life-th reat ening reason, tha t would be expedited . But I am meaning in a general term th ere is a backlog of about 800. Mr.

Alcock: I should indicate, I am not certai n whether you were in the chair at the time, and certainly the Mem ber for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis) was not here, tha t there was some information I requested which 1944

Thursday, October 6, 1988 the Minister has indicated will take a while to collect. I said I would submit the request in writing and we would deal with that matter perhaps on Tuesday. I am prepared to give leave to move to other items. I will come back to th is Item on Tuesday, if tha t is sufficient time for the department to provide the informati on. Mrs. Oleson: You had better qualify tha t. lt depends on the length of the list tha t you provide us. Mr. Alcock: I will provide the list this aftern oon and I will be gentle.

I assume the department has already done this kind of analysis, tha t really the information I am looking at is the relationship between the increasing kids in care and the support provided to children over the last few years tha t this chronic deficit has existed . I will note that down and pass it to the department once I have the chance to leave this room. The boards of the agencies are currently comprised of appointments by the Gov ernment and people tha t are elected from vari ous sectors within their communities.

I believe it was identified in the Reid Report, not the Northw est Reid Report but the Reid Sigurdson Report on Child Abuse, tha t board tra ining was required. Is such trai ning underway at the present ti me? Mrs. Oleson: Each agency has been given $8,000, plus the re will be a 3 percent increase this year as part of the budget to do board tra ining. Mr. Alcock: So tha t $8,000 is now an annual grant tha t Will increase year by year and into the future? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, $8,000 was what Reld recommended In his report and the 3 percent was added this year. Mr.

Alcock: Is there any intention to deliver any of that trai ning centrally? Mrs. Oleson: At my quarterly meetings with the board presidents, tha t will be discussed. They may want that done that way; it might be more effective to have central tra ining. I would want their advice on what the y thought of that. Mr. Alcock: Do you feel bound by tha t advice? Mrs. Oleson: I will take it under consideration. Mr. Alcock: I believe tha t is a different -I am not certain if I quite understan d. Have the agencies now received that $8,000 plus 3 percent? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, last year and this year. Mr.

Alcock: To come back to the question of deficits for a minute, on this situation we have now where the agencies are incurring deficits, th ey are also of course incurring inter est costs. Every day tha t the y sit in the overdraft posit ion, they accrue interest charges as tho se of us who on occasion may have been in a similar position will realize. Is the Govern ment prepared to cover . th ose interest costs? Mrs. Oleson: We are ident ifying the total deficit and any interest costs and we are considering that, yes. Mr. Alcock: Just to clarify tha t though.

Yes, in terest costs are a part of what creates the ever-growing deficit. But as an item in the deficit, as inter est costs add to the deficit and are not something agencies are funded for, are you committing to ensure tha t any addit ional interest costs incurred as a result of this delay are also covered? Mrs. Oleson: We have asked them to project their total deficit and of course tha t would be included in tha t total . Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? The Member for St. Johns. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St.

Johns): Could the Minister follow up some of her answers from Tuesday by giving this comm ittee some indication of this Govern ment's policy with respect to delivery of Child and Family Services? What is this Government's general feeling and approach policy and philosophy with respect to services and delivery of such services? Mrs. Oleson: I read the Member's question correctly. My response is tha t we believe tha t community-b ased services are the way we should be goirig, that we have commun ity-b ased services and we believe in tha t aspect. * (15 40) Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: When the Minister or, more specifically, her Premier refer to re thinking the model, the commun ity-ba sed model, the regionalizat ion tha t took place a number of years ago, could the Minister indic ate what this Gov ernment is thinking about central izing? Are ther e specific aspects to regionalization tha t she has concerns with? Are th ere specific areas tha t she has singled out with respect to central ization? Mrs. Oleson: There is nothing actively being considered for central ization.

What we are act ively considering is how we can deal with a chronic deficit problem in the short term , and when we have dealt with tha t in the short term , then how we can deal with it in the longer term. We want to make sure tha t the children under our protec tion are protected and that we have this service delivered to them in the best possible way. The central ization theme is in the mind of the Opposition, well, specific Op posit ion. I think maybe I should clarify that-the Member for Osborne (Mr.

Alcock) is get ting a little agitated ther e-but to ask me what my Gov ernment is considering would take a long time to discuss because we are considering a lot of things. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Is the Minister then prepared to deny any of the comments by her Leader, Premier Gary Filmon, to the press in speaking engagements regarding review of the amalgamation of the services with regard to rethink ing the concepts of regionalizat ion and perhaps looking at centralization in some aspect in terms of this area? 1945

Thu rsday, October 6, 1988 Mrs. Oleson: Just a few moments ago the Mem ber for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) raised the subject of training and would tha t be suitable to have board tra ining centr alized? In my discussions with the boards and we considered it back and forth and discussed it and tha t proved to be an area tha t might be central ized. If it made good sense economically and for efficiency and the good of the trai ning, then that might be considered.

There are a lot of things tha t could be considered but we are dedicated to communit y-based service and the best service possible for the children under our care. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Is the Minister's current review considering the question of central ization? Mrs. Oleson: The review currently, right now under way, is looking at the deficit and the massive problems we have in funding. That is what we are considering at the moment. Tha t is of a very serious nature.

I want to get tha t problem solved and then work on the longer term of how we properly fund and properly equip the people who we have manda ted to serve children, to properly equip them to do that. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Chairp ers on, could the Min ister then state cate gorically tha t un der no circumstances, no matter what the results of her review show, tha t amalgamation, a return to the old system, that centralization, whatever word one chooses in terms of going back to the old model, will not be considered under any circumstances? Mrs.

Oleson: The Mem ber is asking something rather interes ting; never ever eve r? I mean really if 10 years from now when we are sti ll in Gove rnme nt and governing this province and looking after the children of Manitoba, if it seemed the proper thing to do to central ize, we might do that. I can not definit ively say we would never centralize. I can say we would never go back to the old because it is gone. We can not go back. We have to go forward and look at how we can best serve the needs of tod ay.

I am not looking at yesterday except in the context of the last few months and the last few years how this thing has operated . What I am looking to is the futur e and how we operate it in the best way possible to serve tha t mandate to look after children. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Is the Minister then changing her statem ents with respect to support philosophical and policy support for the commun ity-based model? Mrs. Oleson: No. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Cou ld the Minister explain how she can say on the one hand she supp orts totally the community-based model and then tell us tha t she has not ruled out centralization?

Mrs. Oleson: In the context of the way the Member asked it, if I would never, you can not say you would never do something. That is totally ridiculous because who kno ws what circu ms tanc es we might meet somewhere down the road.

As I say, in the 10 years 1946 when we are st ill in Govern ment, that need might arise, but I said I am st ill, myself, of the thought that commun ity-based services are essential to serving the needs of the children under our protect ion. lt would be rather ridiculous to say never ever under any circumstan ces I would do anyth ing, because th ings change over the years over time and to say one would never do something then is rather ridiculous when at some point in time you then have to do it. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Could the Minister explain what she and her Govern ment mean by a commun ity-based model, why the y have expressed support for it and what are the tenets of tha t model? Mrs. Oleson: Whatever the system tha t one uses to give service, we want to support families and have children able to remain in their own homes.

We want to be sure that we invest igate all allegations of child abuse, tha t we prote ct children when it is necessary to protect them and tha t we provide foster care if tha t is the kind of care tha t is needed for children who cannot remain in their own homes or if we provide residential care, if tha t is the way it has to be done and tha t children would be placed for adoption.

All of th ese things are what we will be att empting to do in the care and the protect ion and the nurtur ing of children. lt would seem to me, personally, tha t an operation based in a community could answer the needs of that particular communit y. That to me is a good way to go. To have the Member insisting tha t I say I will never do this or never do that or never make any changes, it is not really realistic? Sometimes you have to make changes. I am not saying that I am making any. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Does the Minister's understa nding of the commun ity based model include the concepts of commun ity self-help, of a development oriented approach, of an understan ding of the syste mic nature of the problems, of an understan ding of the multi dimensional natu re of the problems occurring? If that is the case, how can the Minister be considering if she believes strongly in tha t approach and the principles of tha t approach be considering central ization? Mrs. Oleson: lt is the Member for St. Johns tha t says I am considering central ization. I did not say I was considering centralization. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: The Minister herself has said tha t she has not ruled out centralization and changes to the current model. We are not ta lking about changes to the exact administra tion of the service and the delivery of the service but changes to the model.

My quest ions have to do with how her understan ding of tha t model and how if that understan ding is founded on the principles of self-help at the communit y level, of self-dete rmination, of commun it ies improving their own communiti es, of communities working toge ther to deal with their problems in terms of their own cultural, historical economic conte xt , then how can she be considering or not ruling out changes to the model tha t result in centralization? * (1 550)

Thursday, October 6, 1988 Mrs. Oleson: I agree with the tenets of what the Member was saying of self-help community involvement and so fort h. One can never rule out change. Cha nges sometimes have to take place for one reason or anoth er. I have not indicated any changes tha t I am about to make. I have indicated tha t ther e is a chronic problem with funding of Child and Family Services agencies. They certa inly want it addressed. I want it addressed. My Govern ment wants it addressed. We are tryi ng to resolve the issue.

The agencies at some point may come to me and say, we think we could run such and such better if it was run central ly. They might very well do that. I would consider it. Life goes on and evolves and changes are made from time to tim e. I am certainly not going to make any changes in a hurry without a good thorough study of the matter. Any change tha t would be made would be an improvement to the system and not thr ough some idea th at I thought up suddenly.

I am looking to have the system run effectively and efficiently with the best possible care for children and the best possible use of tho se hard found tax dollars tha t are so difficult to come by. We have a massiv e problem here and I am trying to ad dress it. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Chair person, I think we all agree around this table tha t we all support change. We kno w tha t organ izations and ins titutions and commun ities go through an ev olutionary process, but change occurs from a philosophical framework from an understan ding from a policy.

The Minister contin ues, whether we are talking about this issue and the delivery of Child and Family Services or we are tal king about the delivery of services for the mentally ret arded or any aspect of this Depart ment, to want to pretend tha t she can have it all ways and give no clear indication of where this Gover nment is coming from. As a result, she leaves providers, volunteers, families, parents and communities in the dark, in a quandry about futur e directions, about what to expect from this Gover nment. All I am asking from the Minister is a clear indicat ion of where she is coming from?

What is her Government's approach to the deliv ery of Child and Family Services? Just like I tried to get indication from her about her Gover nment's position with respect to community living, with respect to deinstitutional ization, but to no avail. Could the Minister indicate if she suppor ts the commun ity self -help model and has a philosophy of prev ention and a development-oriented approach, why she actually pr oceeded unilaterally to change the community outreach program funding tha t goes to Child and Family Services and agencies, why she chooses to centralize in effect prevention dollars? Mrs.

Oleson: I think we have covered that one absolutely thoroughly up, down and sideways, and I do not think the re is really any need for more comment on it. If the Member wants to read Hansard, she can review the an swers tha t I ha ve given on several occasions. I would remind the Member tha t th ere is a Child and Family Services Act th at states very clearly, and I could read to her: "families are entit led to services which respect their cultur al and linguistic heritage. " Now, I am not about to change the Act , so th at will go on.

"Commun ities have a responsibility to promote the best int erests of their children and families and have the right to partici pate in services to their families and children." Well, I certai nly do not intend to change the Act in tha t regard. I think perhaps the Member should relax and not really get so terribly concerned about radical change. I have indicated to her tha t any change, no matter what, will be considered very carefully, but a Govern ment has a responsibility to deliver service in the best way possible. The service is being delivered now but there are horrendous monetary problems with it.

I have to be responsible to the taxpayers to be sure tha t th ose monies are spent wisely. I have to be resp onsible to the childr en in care, the primar y responsibility, to be sure tha t money is put to proper use in their care and protec tion. That is what is being st udied. I cannot give the Mem ber a definit ive answer tha t yes, on such and such a date, we are going to say this or do this or do the other thing. lt is all under review. lt cannot be done in a short time.

I think tha t is one of the things that have bothe red me most even in Opposit ion, and probably more in Govern ment, is the length of time it takes to get anything done. The time you init iate the paperwork and the weeks go by. lt is very frustra ting as the Member will know. She was a Cabinet Minister. I would like to have had this financial problem solved long before this, but it takes time.

When the immediate problem is solved, then we have to get down to work and look at the long-term solutions, because surely th ere must be some solution tha t we do not have to go through this mis ery every year, of having agencies in a bind financially. They do not know how they will be able to operate and they have to have money th rown at them every year to reduce a deficit. Surely ther e must be a better way of coming to grips with the problem than has been demonst rated over the last three years. * (16 00) Ms.

Wasyl ycia -Leis: I appr eciate the Minis ter' s comments, but I think some of the misery tha t she talks about has been evoked or caused by some of the recent decisions tak en by this Government, in terms of the budgets for child and family service agencies, indeed for the entir e department.

I would ask the Minister, since she feels she has answered the quest ion about the Commun ity Out reach funding, if she felt tha t th ere were concerns with tha t fund, if she looked at other solutions, other than one of requiring agencies to apply centrally on a project by-project basis for prev ent ion dollars which, in my view, I think in the minds of most community activists, would be a slap in the face with respect to community based decision making and self determ ination. Did she look at any other solutions to the problem? Mrs. Oleson: The agencies thems elves are going to

part icipate in the plans of how this money is to be 1947

Thursday, October 6, 1988 distri buted . I do not consider it a slap in the face, I cert ainly do not. I think that is a very narrow way of looking at it. There were concerns on the fact that the money was not always used. There was a definite concern that all agencies did not have access to it, and the decision was made to do it this way, with input from the agencies. They will help in sett ing criteria. We want to make sure the money is used in the way tha t it was inte nded. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Could the Minister, since she has em barked upon this review with the agencies before any final budget decisions are taken , could she give some assurances here toda y that after tha t review no agency will have to cut back staff or programs? Mrs. Oleson: I have indicated to the agencies not to cut back staff or programs. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: If I understand the Minister's answer -a nd it relates to a previous answer-she has asked them at this time, before the matter is resolved, not to cut back any programs or staff.

My question is post review, and tha t is, can the Minister give us assurances that once tha t review has taken place, tha t no agency will have to cut back staff or programs? Mrs. Oleson: I will be meeting with , or communicating somehow to the agencies the results of the review and what will be taking place in the futur e with regard to their funding. I think that I should really leave tha t to discuss with them before I make it public, shall we say, by put ting it in Hansard here, partly because it has not been finalized just exactly what is taking place. Mr.

Alcock: I would like just to add a comment to what the Member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis) has said. Cert ainly the decision to central ize the Prevention Grants, it is my understan ding, was not taken with input from the agencies. In fact, it is my belief the agencies did not concur with that. I certainly understand the problem the Minister is trying to address, and given that this is the route we are now embarked upon, I am prepared to let it sit there right now.

My concern would be tha t control over tho se monies be restored to those agencies as quickly as is possible, because I think the direction, as the Member for St. Johns points out, flies in the face of the Minister's statem ents about suppor t for com mun ity- based services. I recognize the problem you are dealing with , but the action you have taken is, I think, a very dangerous and a very serious one. I would appreciate at some point, as soon as possible, a commitment to returning control over tho se funds to the agencies for the purposes for which the y were originally intended.

Having said that, tha t is not a question, but you can respond to it if you like. Mrs. Oleson: Do you have a question? Mr. Alcock: I do. I have several questions. I would like to move a bit, as we are in the Child Maintenanc e line, to some discussion of child maintenance. The first is, have the rate increases for the group homes been announced as yet? 1948 Mrs. Oleson: I met with the group yesterday and indicated tha t the increase would be 3 percent. I have not had an official letter on it but I had indicated it to them. Mr.

Alcock: So all of the group homes th at are trad itionally at the level 2, 3, 4 group homes, anything tha t is shift staffed will be receiving a 3 percent increase? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, tha t is the case. Mr. Alcock: Okay. There is an anomaly tha t exists in our service system tha t I have wondered about for some years. At the current time, Manitoba locks up a number of children who have not committed any crime. I wonder if the Minister could tell us at the present time how many children are currently incarcerated for reasons other than having comm itted a crime. Mrs. Oleson: No.

If the Member is referring to Seven Oaks-is tha t his reference? Mr. Alcock: All children currently deprived of their freedom, despite the fact they have committed no crime. Mrs. Oleson: There are 42 children at present in the situation where the doors are locked for their protect ion. Mr. Alcock: Might the Minister tell us at what facilities thos e children are? Mrs. Oleson: Primarily at Seven Oaks. Mr. Alcock: Does this mean then tha t th ere has been a change? Are ther e no longer locked beds at Marymound? Mrs. Oleson: I said primarily Seven Oaks. There are some at Marymound and at Knowles. Mr.

Alcock: Perhaps the Minister could tel l us how many childr en are currently incarcerated at Marymound? Mrs. Oleson: I do not have the number for Marymound or Knowles of children th ere at the moment. We can get it for you. Mr. Alcock: Perhaps rather than dealing with a specific number of children at any point in time, perhaps I could ask, how many beds at Marymound and Knowles are designated as locked beds for use by children? What is the maximum number of children tha t could be incarcerated at Marymound? And the same question exists for Knowles. Mrs. Oleson: We will get that number in a moment. Mr.

Alcock: Add to tha t, please, the maximum number of children tha t could be locked up at Seven Oaks at any point in ti me. Mrs. Oleson: We will get that for you, too. We do not have the information for Marymound and Knowles

Thursday, October 6, 1988 tod ay. We could get it for the Mem ber. The beds at Seven Oaks amount to 50, 42 children th ere tod ay. Mr. Alcock: I will add the Marymound question to my list I have written here. I know certainly, the last I checked, ther e were I believe 30 beds at Knowles and 30 beds at Marymound, of which the province was prepared to finance 24 in each facility, for a total of- 60 plus the 50- 11 0 beds in the Province of Manitoba in which children can be placed and from which children are not allowed to come and go. I will indicate that.

I guess the quest ion I have is under what authority are the se children depr ived of their freedom? (The Acting Chairman, Mrs. Gerrie Hammond, in the Chair.) Mrs. Oleson: This was the subject of a Reid-Sigur dson invest igation as well. I am wondering if the Mem ber, having had former tie s with Seven Oaks, perhaps he has some thoug hts Qn this. I am not comfortable with the thought tha t children are locked up either and I think th at is wha t the Member is indicating. I am also aware th at there are ti mes when this seems to be the only answer.

I am wondering if the Member has some thoug hts on it tha t he may want to say toda y or discuss with me at another time, but this is a tho rny issue. Mr. Alcock: I am pleased tha t the Minister recognizes it as such. lt is an issue that I have raised many ti mes over the last 10 years. lt is indeed a thorny issue and it one tha t I have very strong concerns about. The situa tion as I currently understand it, and I have not been close to this for the last couple of years, at one time children were locked up simply on the word of a parent or guardian.

In part , tha t was done because certain children required protect ion because the y were a danger to the mselves. That was before we had a closed psychiatric facility for children in the Province of Manitoba. We now have such a facility, and yet the province has not seen fit to change the operation of these th ree facilities in particul ar.

We continue to lock children up even though th ese children have commit ted no crime, have not been before a judge and have been judged either incompete nt, or before a ps ych iatric exam ination and judg ed incompetent and have not in any way been subjected to any sort of due process tha t allows an assessment other than t he recommendation by a social worker of the necessity of locking the se children up. I would ask, given tha t situa tion, whether the Min ister or the department has any plans to correct tha t situa tion. Mrs.

Oleson: lt is something tha t concerns me a great deal but it is a very difficult issue to resolve. We have to think of protect ing children, as the Member indicated, often from thems elves but we have to find some alterna ti ve. They obviously have to be somewhere and the alterna tiv e is difficult to find. Yet I am aware of the issue, I am concerned about it.

I think probably philosophically we are on the same wavelength. lt both ers me that you would lock up a child or anyone who has not comm itted a crime but, on the other hand, th ere is the safety issue and there is often -! understand tha t the police just really have no other alternative of a place to keep a child overnight. lt is supposed to be for short term , sometimes it ends up it is longer. * (16 10 ) Mr.

Alcoc k: Again, I am very pleased to see the position the Minister has taken on this, because I do believe it is a serious issue. lt is a difficult problem, although it is a problem tha t other provinces have faced. One of the things tha t I would urge the Minister to do and perhaps, given tha t some of her staff have got experience in other jurisdictions, she might examine how other jurisdictions have dealt with this.

Perhaps the current Deputy Minister would have an idea of how many children are incarcerated in Saskatchewan who have not been before a judge, who have not been judged by a psychiatris t or a judge as needing tha t kind of protec tion? Mrs. Oleson: I will have to ask my Deputy Minister. I doubt if he has the information right at hand, but he and I can discuss it. I should indicate to the Member th at there was a revised criteria for Seven Oaks in June. The criteria is that the child has to be an immediate danger to themselves or absolutely unmanageable, out of control, for initial 24 hours by the pol ice.

They are not supposed to stay there any longer. I know tha t someti mes for one reason or another it happens. I will undertake to find out what other jurisdictions do. I really have not had the time yet to give it the study th at it really needs. Mr. Alcock: I appreciate that, and I would certai nly ask tha t you do that. I would just like to refer to the question of the police needing a place for a child to stay. The police can place a child in all sorts of locations. They do not have to have a locked facility.

The empha sis is on the fact tha t childr en toda y are incar cerated without any due process. lt is a fact that I believe, if the Minister were to call for a political opinion, she would find contravenes the Ch arter of Rights. I would ask tha t she move quickly to address this issue. I would like to get the specific num bers. I would also like to know the longest period of time a child has stayed at Seven Oaks in the past year. I will put it on the list. Mrs. Oleson: Yes, you can put it on your list. We have not got tha t right now.

I appreciate the support of the Member in tha t question because it is a very serious issue. Mr. Alcock: There is no question, and I am quite prepared to work with the Minister on that. There was a plan or there was discussion about closing down Seven Oaks and devolving the responsibility for that facility to the agencies who are responsible for caring for th ese children. Is tha t plan currently under way? 1949

Thu rsday, October 6, 1988 Mrs. Oleson: This is tak ing place on a gradual basis. Winnipeg Receiving Resources is being devolved to the agencies, and the whole thing is in process. I know it is slow, but tha t is tak ing place. Mr. Angus: Do we have a sense of how long it will take to complete the devolution of Winnipeg Receiving Resources? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, step 1 is the Winnipeg Receiving Resources devolution, which should be done in the next th ree months; and then step 2 of it is the downsizing of Seven Oaks; and then step 3, to reduce the locked beds. That is in progress. Mr.

Alcock: You mentioned step 1, the dev olution of Winnipeg Receiving Resources to the agency, would be comple ted within thr ee months. However , the downsizing of Seven Oaks, downsizing to what size, completed by when? Mrs. Oleson: As the suggestions or recommendations by the Reid-Sigurdson Report, it will be downsized to 32 beds to a treatment centre as opposed to its present use. Mr. Alcock: By when? Mrs. Oleson: The target is 32 beds by April 1, 19 89. Mr. Alcock: I notic e the use of the term "tr eatment centre. " Does this mean that it will no longer act as a reception centre? Mrs. Oleson: That is correct .

Mr. Alcock: Are the re, in light of the question raised about locked beds and the desire to-a s in item 3 here, it says "reduce locked beds." To what number, by what date? Mrs. Oleson: I should correct the 32 beds. I said, at Seven Oaks, tha t would be all treat ment. There will be l some beds of necessity left for receiving during tha t ' process. There is no set timetable for step 3 of the process because you have to do it in the right steps to be sure you have your bases covered, I guess would be the way to say it. But it is all in progress. Mr.

Alcock: In child maintenance, we have an increase of about $1 million in supports to Re sidential Care. Now Residential Care, I understand to be defined as shift-staffed facilities, group homes and beds and what we used to call institutions. Can the Minister describe what tha t increase is comprised of? Mrs. Oleson: That is to do with the shift in volume from Seven Oaks to the communit y, if I understand the question correctly. Mr. Alcock: So monies tha t currently went to support beds at Seven Oaks have been reallocated to beds in the communit y? Mr s. Oleson: Yes, they will be. Mr. Alcock: Will be, or has been?

Mrs. Oleson: There is $900,000 extra for volume in this budget, which has been allocated for beds. Mr. Alcock: Now just to make sure we are tal king about the same thing, I am tal king about the Residential Care line that is indicated in '8 7-88 as being $12 .913 4 million and, in March 31, '89, it is estima ted to be $14 .11 9 million. You are saying, within that, th ere is $900,000 of a volume increase? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. Mr. Alcock: Given tha t is a Residential Care line, which at least has trad itionally indicated shift-staffed beds, where have the new beds being created ? * (16 20) Mrs.

Oleson: There is a 3 percent increase there, which is 41 6,7 00 and a volume increase of $900,000; trans fer to foster and special rate care, 11 0,8 00.00. What will happen is tha t some of the residences will increase in size. They were funded at 85 percent, now the y will be funded at 10 0 percent. So with the devolution of the Winnipeg Receiving Resources, th ere will be more children in the se smaller residential homes. Mr. Alcock: The Minister says they were funded at 85 perce nt of capacity , I presu me, with 85 percent occupancy. Are all beds in the system now being funded 10 0 percent? Mrs.

Oleson: There is enough money in the budget to support 10 0 percent. Mr. Alcock: For all facilities? Mrs. Oleson: For all the current facilities, yes. Mr. Alcock: Oh! Has this been announced to the group homes yet ? Mrs. Oleson: No, you are hearing it first. As I say, thin gs take ti me. Mr. Alcock: I will attempt to be discreet. Mrs. Oleson: If they do not read Hansard, they will not know. We are so busy tryi ng to solve the deficit, we have not got the paperwork done here to get the news out to them. Mr. Alcock: You do seem to be spending a little time here each afte rnoon, if I may.

Just help me underst and this now. You are saying that all of the shift-staffed group homes funded under this line are now funded at 10 0 percent of capacity. Would this mean then tha t the per diem rate program tha t used to be applied is no longer active? Here is a hot quest ion for you. Mr s. Oleson: There is no change in the per diem but th ey will be able to handle more children in the home. lt was menti oned to me when I met with them that was 1950

Thursday, October 6, 1988 one of the problems, tha t they had to take in more children to make the home viable and this will allow them to do that, and the 3 percent increase in per diem-s orry, did I say there was no increase in per diem? Mr. Alcock: In the same area, Maintenanc e of Children under Family Support services, th ere is an increase of about $1. 2 million. Now is tha t a volume increase or is tha t to meet current volume? Mrs.

Oleson: This includes the range of support services provided by th ose statutory and non-s tatutor y agencies involving homemakers, parent aids and child care workers, both in the child's own home and in foster homes or residential care facilities. So full- year costs provided thr ough supp lemental funding in '87- 88, 700,000; volume increase primarily due to increased demand for Nativ e services, 250,0 00-tha t was to Ma Mawi; and the 3 percent increase, 16 8,4 00, and other minor increases, 90,000.00. Mr. Alcock: I am sorry, Madam Chairperson, I am having a little difficulty hearing the answer.

The Acting Chairman (Mrs. Hammond): Order, please; order, please. Mr. Alcock: Perhaps the Minister could repeat the answer? Mrs. Oleson: As I said before, this includes a range of support services provided by both statutory and non statutory agencies involving homemakers, parent aides and child care workers, both in the child's own home and in foster homes or residential care facilities.

Full year costs provided through supp lemental funding in 19 87-88, $700,000; volume increase primarily due to increased demand for Native services $250,000, and tha t was primarily given to Ma Ma wi; 3 percent price increase 16 8.4; and other minor increases, 90.3. Mr. Alcock: So then the volume increase is going primarily .to M a Mawi. The new service will be delivered by Ma Mawi? Mrs. Oleson: Primarily, yes. Mr. Alcock: Are ther e no volume increases antici pated in the other agencies? Mrs. Oleson: That is in the figure that I indicated was $700,000, was the volume increase there. Mr.

Alcock: So tha t th ere is funding for a volume increase in the six agencies in the City of Winnipeg, central Manitoba and western Manitoba? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, tha t is correct . Mr. Alcock: Perhaps the Minister could provide detai ls on the size of the volume increase by agency. I will put it on the list. Mrs. Oleson: I would suggest you put it on your list. 1951 Mr. Alcock: The Administra tion and Service grants for the child caring institutions, could the Minister inform us as to wha t grants are given to what agencies? There is $ 2,4 03,0 00 referenced here in '87-88.

What is the figure for '88 -89 and how is it dist ributed ? Mrs. Oleson: Child caring institut ion administr ative gr ants: Childr en 's Home of Winnip eg in '87-88, $878,0 00 and in '88-89, 10 02. 1; Knowles Centr e 415 .6 and in '8 8-89, 428. 1; Marymound in '87, 792.7 and in '8 8-89, 816 .5; and in Macdonald Youth Services in '87- 88, 373.3 and in '8 8-89, 384.5. I understand, for the Member's information, that this is the first time in a number of years that th ey have had an increase like that. Mr. Alcock: lt is indeed, and I commend the Minister for that, frankly.

I think th ey have been neglected for too long. I do have a question, thoug h, on the Winnipeg Receiving Resources money. In the earlier grants list you indicated a figure for about 300-and-some thous and dollars tha t Winnip eg Rec eiving Resou rces was receiving from other ext ernal agency service grants.

Given that Winnipeg Receiving Resources is being devolved within the next thr ee months, is tha t 300, 000- odd dollars all tha t it is antici pated to require for this year and tha t will meet its requirement up to the point it is devolved, or will there be additional resources there tha t are being devolv ed to the other agencies? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, there are not the same funds required because it is winding down, so the administra tion and grants would be reduced for tha t reason. * (16 30) Mr.

Alcock: The grant tha t is indicated is simply there to carry it through another th ree months, October, Novem ber, say, to the end of December? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. That is the case. The rest of it has been allocated to the agencies. Mr . Alcock: And in a su bsequent budget year, presumably the 300 and however many thousand dollars would be similarly distri buted to the agencies receiving the responsibility for delivering services previously delivered by Winnipeg Receiving Resources? Mrs. Oleson: Yes. The Acting Chairman (Mr s. Hammond): Shall the item pass? Pass. Ms.

Wasyly cia-Leis: Could the Minister indicate whether or not the change with respect to the Foster Parent rate structur e have been communic ated commun icated is the wrong word-t hat the whole change has been processed in terms of the agencies? I was aware of some confusion around this whole area. Mrs. Oleson: They have been told to send in their September bills and the y will be paid at the new rate.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-52
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 52.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f62e0cbfcc788279aa4482126725217cbd75aeb4

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