Manitoba Hansard — 1 March 1960 (Sitting 31, 26th Legislature, 2nd Session)

26-2-31

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Volume IV No. 31 March 1, 19.60 2nd Session, 26th Legisla ture Printed by R. S. Evans. Queen's Printer for tbe Province of Manitoba3 Winnipeg

DAILY INDEX Tuesday, March 1, 1960, 2: 30P.M. Introducti on of Bills: Nos. 104, 76, 105, 99 , 103 . • • • . • • . . • . • • • . . • • • • . . • • . • • • • • • • . . 1083 Adjourned Debates: Re Teacher Grants (Mr. Tanchak): Mrs. Forbes • • • • • . • . . • • • • • • • • 1086 Re Ph ysical Fitness (Mr. Sch reyer, Mr. Cowan) Mr. Desjardins, further amendment . • . . • . . • . . . • . . .. • • . • . • . • . . . • . . . • • • . • • • • • • • . • • • • . . . • 1088 Mr. McLean .•....• ...•...•.• .... •....•..••. •• •....• ••••..•••••.••• ·.• 1091 Re Minimum Wage (Mr. Peters): Mr.

Klym • • • . • • . • • • . . . • . • • • . . • • • • • • . . • • • • 1091 Re Keewatin (Mr. Ingebrig tson): Mr. Martin • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • 1094 Mr. Orlikow • • . . . . . • • • • . • • . • • • • • . • • • • • . . • • . • • • • • • . . . • • • • • • . • • • • • • • • • 1098 Re Motor Vehicle Insurance (Mr. Pau11ey) • • . • • . • • • • • . • • • . • • • • • • • . • •• • • • . • • 1099 Division • . • • . • • • • . . . . • • • • • • . • . • • • . • • • • • . • • • • • • • • • • . • • • . • • • • • • . . • • • • 1102 Re Housing (Mr. Harris)� .·Mr.

Peters •..••••••• •.. .. . • . • • • • • • • • • • • • . • • • • • • 1102 Re Retaining Wall (Mr. Desjardins): Mr. Corbett • • • • • • . . • . • • • . • . • • • • • . . • • • 1103 Mr. Sch reyer •..•.• ••••..•••••..•.••••.•.• ; • • • . . . • • • . • . . • • • • • • • • • • • • 1104 Re Crip pled Ch ildren (Mr. Gray): Mr. Baizley, amendment . • • • • . . • . • • • • • • . . . 1105 Re Bill 28 (Hutterites, Mr. Sh ewman): Mr. Campbell •.•••.•••••••• �....... 1105

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Tuesday, March 1st, 1960. Opening prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Attorney-General)(Fort Garry): I beg to present on behalf of Mr. Speaker the first report of the Special Select Committee appointed to consider the rules of the House. It is not the intention to move concurrence of this report until Thursday next. Befo re that time there will have been distributed copies of the report for the consideration of the House. MR.

SPEAKER: I would suggest that as a copy of this report will be placed on every member's desk within the half hour, and it is a very lengthy report, that the clerk be not requir . ed to read the report in full, --passed. MR . CLERK: Your Special Select Committee appointed to consider the rules of the House beg leave to present the following as their first report, all of which is respectfully submitted. MR. SPEAKER: Notice of Motion Introduction of Bills. Hon. George Hutton (Minister of Agriculture)(R ockwood-Iberville) introduced Bill No. 104,

an Act to amend The Crop Insurance Test Areas Act. Hon. George Johnson (Minister of Health and Public Welfare)(Gimli) introduced Bill No. 76,

an Act to amend The Hospitals Act. MR. SPEAKER: Committee of the Whole House. HON. STEW ART E. D. McLEAN (Minister of Education)(Dauphin) : Mr. Speaker, I move. seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Health and Public Welfare, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider the follow ing proposed resolution standing on the Order Paper in my name and in the name of the Honour able the Minister of Industry and Commerce. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR .

SPEAKER: Would the Honourable Member for St. Matthews please take the Chair? MR . McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor having been inform- ed of the subject matter of the proposed resolutions recommends them to the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 1, resolved that it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Teachers' Retirement Allowance Act by providing, among other matters, for the making of payments from the Consolidated Fund to The Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund Board in respect of teachers employed by school divisions. MR. McLEAN: Mr.

Chairman, the purpose of the amendment is to include within the ambit of the Act, teachers employed by school divisions. This should really have been done be fore and it was just an oversight. The Act also proposes certain changes which are conSequent upon changes in our establishment within the department. That is a routine matter. MR. EDMOND PREFONTAINE (Carillon): Mr. Chairman, may I ask the Minister if the teachers employed in the three divisions that have voted "no" receive the same consideration or not? MR. McLEAN: This has nothing to do with that, Mr. Chairman.

The teachers in school districts are already included in the Act and this amendment simply makes the Act applicable to teachers employed by school divisions. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolution be adopted ?--passed.

Resolution No. 2, resolv ed that it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Education Department Act by provid ing among other matters, for the making of loans from the Consolidated Fund to certain persons training to be teachers, or attending the University of Manitoba or one of its affiliated colleges or at an institute of higher learning approved by the Minister of Education, or training to be nurses. MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, under the present Act loans made to teachers in train ing require an Order-in-c� ��ncil. The amendment would enable the loans to be made by a Minis terial Order.

We believe that the Order-in-Council is unnecessary. And also the proposed March 1st, 1960 Page1083

(Mr. McLean, cont'd.) .. amendment makes quite clear the legislative authority to make loans to teachers in training and to student nurses. There is considered to be some question whether the Act is sufficiently wide for that purpose. The loans are actually being made. There's never >"been any question on t:!:J.at point but we felt that this amendment was necessary. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the CCF)(Radisson): Mr. Chairman, is this set-up similar to the .Student Aid Fund in Saskatchewan?

As I understand their aid fund there, the capi: tal in the fund is set up jointly be the Dominion of Canada and the Province of Saskatchewan. Has Manitoba taken advantage of that or is it still in force? I may say, Mr. Chairman, I just received this morning the annual report of the Saskatchewan Student Aid Fund for the year 158- '59, and it seems to me as though it covers those items that are listed in this resolution or those persons that are listed in the resolution.

It says that the original fund, the Saskatchewan Student Aid Fund consists of a capital investment of $1 million and repayments of loans made from the fund. While the Act makes possible the award of both loans and scholarships, the Fund was used until March 31st, 1959, almost exclusively for loan purposes. Now then it appears to me that the system there is that the basis for loans is reasonable scholarship and need. Loans bear no interest if the student repays his indebtedness at the rate of $25 a month after graduati on.

And then in the event of the failure of that, the loan bears an interest at the rate of six per cent. It also appears to me that there are no ties whatsoever to the student following the loan whereby they must do certain things such as stay in the province. The only exception that I can see here of any loan at all is to students in Theology. I'm wondering--there's one point here in the general regulations--no form of work shall be required from any student in return for aid under this

schedule other than diligent application to the course of study for which he or she is enrolled. And again at the discretion of the province assistance may be given as a grant or as a loan; or a combination of both. All loans shall be administered by the-province which shall subsequently collect them as far as possible and then the province shall refund to the Govern ment of Canada one-half of collections in respect of loans in v.h ich the Federal Government share.

I'm wondering, because of the reference from the Consolidated Fund here, whether the Minister is aware or whether this fund that we have has been established on the basis of federal provincial contributions. MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm not really able to say to what extent the plan of loans here compares with the plan followed in the Province of Saskatchewan except that perhaps in a general way they're much the same. I would judge from what the Honourable Leader of the CCF Party has read that they have established a capital fund. That is not the case in Manitoba.

Each year we vote the monies that are considered necessary for this purpose, and that amount is included in the estimates. We of course have a similar, or If I might say so, better arrange ment c-oncerning repayment because I think we give rather more generous terms of repayment and lower rates of interest when interest is applicable. However, the general principle is per haps not too much diff erent.

Now as far as I'm aware, the loans made to student nurses are .the only loans which we have in which the Government of Canada contributes any portion, and what the honourable memb er has said has aroused my interest and I will certainly see whether there are some federal funds that are available for this purpose. As our fund is now establish ed, we do not make use of federal funds other than with respect to student nurses. MR. PAULLEY: I might say, Mr.

Chairman, the main reason that I raised this point is because I was under the impression that all of our loans came directly from the consolidated re venues of the province itself, and if there was an opportunity of having joint participation that we should take advantage of it, and I will be pleased if the Minister would like to glance over this report that I have just received. For his information he may find something in there that is worthwhile as far as that aspect of joint participation is concerned . . MR. n. L. CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opposition)(Lakeside): Mr.

Speaker, I under stood the Minister to say that one of the provisions of the legislation that will be brought for ward would be that these loans could be made on the authority of the Minister without the neces sity of Order-in-Co•.mcil. With all respect, Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that that change is not one that is in keeping with recent trends, if I may call them that, in our legislation and our procedure here.

I think there has been a tendency on the part of the Assembly to encourage le- -gislation that so far as possible will minimize the number of regulations that are put into effect by Orde�-in-Council, and so far as possible and where practical to have the law appear in the Page 1084 March 1st, 1960

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.) •. statute books as completely as possible. And then similarly there has been a tendency in recent years, and certainly it's one that I have inclined toward, to mini mize the area that the Minister of the Department exercises responsibility in, rather than the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council. I would think that there is no doubt that when the Minister, advised by the Committee that-! believe would sit on these matters, brings the recommendation to the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council that there's no question that they go through almost auto' matically.

But simply as a matter of principle I think that is moving in the wrong direction, and that we should, so far as possible, keep to an absolute minimum the subject matters that are left to one Minister; and then, so far as possible, keep to a minimum the matters that are dealt with by regulation rather than: having them appear in the statute itself. So I would simply sub mit, or suggest to the Minister that he.might consider not making that change. I don't think it would make any diff erence inthe number of recipients of this assistance or in the individuals that would receive it.

It seems to me it is a little more in keeping W. th our recent practice to not move in this direction. MR. J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Chairman, is there any interest charged on these loans? And if so, at what rate? MR. McLEAN: Five percent only, after we 're satisfied that the borrower has not made reasonable efforts to repay the loan. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolution be adopted?--passed.

Resolution No. 3, resolv ed that it is expedient to bring in a measure respecting the provision of technical planning ser vices to certain municipalities and government departments and agencies and to provide, among other things, for the payment of part of the cost thereof from and out of the Consolidated Fund. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry & Commerce) (Fort Rouge): Mr. Chairman, it is proposed to separate out the Provincial Planning Service from the present M.3tropolitan Planning Commission.

This is the legislation to enable us to incorporate the Provincial Plan� ning Service into the Department of Industry and Commerce. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolution be adopted?--passed. Shall the committee rise and report? Call ili the speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has adopted cer tain resolutions, directed me to report the same and ask leave to sit again. MR. W. G. MAR TIN (St. Matthews): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Hon ourable Member for Winnipeg Centre that the report to the Committee be received. Mr.

Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. Mr. McLean introduced Bill No. 105,

an Act to amend The Teachers' Retirement Allow ances Act; and Bill No. 99,

an Act to amend The Education Department Act. Mr. Evans introduced Bill No. 103,

an Act respecting the provision of planning services to the municipalities and agencies of the government; first time. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to draw your- at tention to the fact that on your right and on your left there are pupils of the General Wolfe School together with their teachers, Mr. Henry Enns and Mr. B. Margolis. In greeting them, Sir, I would say that we hope that they will have a very happy time with us.

I understan d that in some of the schools in these days you get a brief television program, and I would like to tell you that the dramatic spectacle that you wituess this afternoon is coming to you "live" and I hope for a very happy afternoon for you and that you will so enjoy it that before long you will come again. -· MR. A. J. REID (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to bring to the attention of the House that today is the opening day of the Red Cross drive, ·and my purpose in doing this, Mr.

Speaker, is to show the members and the public the marvell()�� work the Red Cross are doing. I have a specific case in my constituency where a family have fi'\ce children, and I can't use the medical terms--I don't kn� w what they are--but I think when the children are born they are blue babies, and these five children are still with us today through the good graces of God and the Red Cross by having their blood replaced entirely free, and are good, healthy children. And that is my purpose, Mr. Speaker, in bringing that question up. HON. J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Public Utllities)(The !'as): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to draw the attention of the House to a newspaper report in this morning's Free Press under the heading of "TV Fee Reports False". I'd like to draw this to the attention of the House because a statement is attributed to myself in this

article which is March 1st, 1960 Page 1085

(Mr. Carroll; cont'd.) .• false and I would like to correct tt for the benefit of the public at large and for those members who may use this particular publica�n for speech material. The paragraph that I would like to comment on is the one which reads as follows: "The Honourable J B. Carroll, Minister of Public Utilities, denied Monday that the high Manitoba Telephone �- System toll charges had prevented the CBC from extending television service to northern Mani- -tOba". I made no such statement, Mr. Speaker. In fact, I frankly believe that this is the rea son why the service was not extended.

But what I did say was that the MTS did not refuse to enter a long-term contract for the provision of television and that they were not trying to write off the facilities -over a short-term period as was suggested in previous news reports. The sug gestion was that it was being written off over a four-year period and in fact it's being written off over a fifteen-year period the same as the television equipment and facilities are being writ ten off on the Trans-Canada system, and this is considered to be the standard practice of com muni cation systems.

So I draw this to the attention of the House so there will be no misunder standing with respect to this particular report. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. S. PETERS (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to correct a statement attributed to me in Hansard on page 983, February 26th. The Honourable Member for St. Vital was speaking on a minimum wage and he mentioned that no .other province in Canada except BC had a minimum wage at present time higher than Manitoba. Here it says that I had said "Saskatchewan isn't as high as Manitoba".

What I did say was that ''Saskatche wan's minimum wage is higher than Manitoba's": MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain and the proposed motion in amendment thereto by the Honourable the Leader of the CCF, and a further motion in amendment to the amendment by the Honourable Member for Selkirk. This debate is open. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I would ask at this time that this be allowed to stand. MR. SPEAKER: Order stand.

Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honour able Member for Inkster and the proposed motion in amendment thereto by the Honourable Mem ber for Rhineland. The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I would ask that this matter stand. MR. SPEAKER: Order stand. Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Hon ourable Member for Fisher and the proposed motion in amendment thereto. by the Honourable Member for Hamiota, and a further motion in amendment to the amendment by the Honourable Member for Carillon. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. · MR. HUTTON: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask that this matter be allowed to stand. MR. SPEAKER: Order stand. Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Hon ourable Member for Emerson. The Honourable Member for Cypress. MRS. THELMA FORBES (Cypress): Mr. Speaker, in taking

part in this debate I would like to point out that, as I see it, there are two important considerations involved; first, taxati on; and second, centralization. Certainly, as has been said before, in the realm of taxation there is grave misunderstanding of what has been said. The purpose of the taxation system as applied to the school division plan was that of equalizing the cost of education in the Province of Manftoba--equalizing it at the local level of the taxpayers and equalizing it between the local taxpayer and the provincial resources. This equalization is the key to the whole division plan.

Much unfairness in taxation has developed over a number of years for various reasons--closed . school divisions, location of property, or what have you. But let's face up to it and let's do something about it. In the years gone by some people located back in the hills--back near a river or in some remote part of a municipality, hoping that probably their taxes might be lighter. Not many years ago there was a re-assessment of land throughout the province. This took care of many of these people because this was equalization. Equalization in the division plan is similar.

For .some the taxes will be down and rightly so; for others the taxes will be up and rightly so here too. This is the essence, the meaning of equalization. Now some who fear it, fear it because of misun,d.erstanding, but when understood, I am sure they will realize it's only fair and right, beneficial to themselves and to their neighbours. I would like to suggest to the honourable P�e l<l86 Mareh 1st,· 1960

(Mrs. Forbes, cont'd.) .. members who were requesting this resolution that they spend some time explaining this equalization factor in their respective areas, because in my mind the boun daries diff erence of opinion would not be so unsurmountable if this equalization deal was really understood. Now the other factor concerned revolves around centralization. From my observations I believe these people do not want to accept central control. Now I am willing and I do see their side of the picture.

I realize from their background that their fears are not unfounded, but this is Canada--this is Manitoba--their chosen land; and, Mr. Speaker, I'm a great believer in in tegration. If we are to build better communities and a better province we must have it. I be lieve that we put too much stress on preserving the culture of various groups. I think it's high time that we begin to put more stress on the developing of a Canadian culture. I think it's pos sible to do both; to preserve individual culture and at the saiiE time aim to build a Canadian culture. Mr.

Speaker, we must deem that adult education if we are going to achieve this, and at the sam e time we will be strengthening the very foundations of our democratic government. Men and women need intellectual stimulation. There must be a desire to learn, and when could there be a better time than to study the division plan? They must learn to digest ideas. They must think them through and not accept them because leaders tell them what to do. This must go on all through life. Education must be continuous. In my mind this is the safeguard of our freedom.

I sincerely believe much could be done toward the idea of adult education for a better understanding of the school division plan, and if it were done I do not think that they would con demn it as,a central control idea. Now I'm deeply concerned about the people outside the division plan but I'm mostly con cerned about the boys and girls, and they can only have what the adults want for them. The system of teacher grants to a school district has been in force for many years.

It is a well knoWn: fact that in the previous days befor e teachers 1 salary schedules, various school districts . made teacher grants cover teachers' salaries and they bartered and dealt for as cheap a teach er as they could get in many cases. It covered teachers' salaries, janitors,. transportation; whatever they could. The difference when it occurred between the grant and the expenditure was made up by the taxes at the local level. Now this is true today.

The district outside the diVision plan--in these districts the diff erence between the grant and the expenditures is going to be greater than for those in the division, but teachers' salaries can-be the very same. Sal aries are not established by the grant but by the local bo:i.rd. If the salaries are different the government is not discriminating but the local board is. They are not asking for the relief in . teachers' salaries they are asking for a relief to the local taxpayers.

I believe it would be gros:.: sly unfair for diVisions who voted for and accepted the responsibilities that went with the divisi on plan should this government agree to teacher grants the same for them as for areas who vot ed against the plan and its responsibilities. I think too that it is unreasonable for areas outside the diVision to ask for these grants. The government baked a cake. The various ingredients were responsibilities; apparently the icing was the grants. They are reaching out to lick oft' the icing and leave the basic cake.

It has been said that this government is unfair in our grants; that we are discriminating against people; we are treating them as second class citizens. Well, Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind this House that the former administration had a diff erent system of grants for the larger school areas and we who were not incl!J.ded didn't howl and shout; we did not say we were being discriminated against; and we did not class ourselves as second class citizens. Now much has to be said for the local rural schools. Much has to be given up.

Trans portation and many other factors have to be considered, but when you weigh these against the advantages of the· school diVision plan; and when you can agree that there is a shocking waste of teacher abilit-y for her to be teaching perhaps eight or nine children in seven or eight differ ent grades; and when you can agree that there is now new incentive for teachers to raise their standards with additional and special courses; when you realize that money can be saved in the consolidation of schools; and above all, when such a system as the division plan gives each boy and girl and. equal opportunity for an education then I think you have gone a long way in your adult education plan.· And I sincerely hope that people outside the division will be able to ask for a referendum and enjoy the opportunities of the diVision plan, and at the same time, they will feel that they are Canadians shouldering their share of the responsibilities that go with it.

I therefore ask the members of this House to vote 2gainst the resolution. March 1st, 1960 Page 1087

MR. ·SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, if nobody else wishes to speak, I'll adjourn the debate, but I'll have to remind them that I'll be closing the· debate. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member will be closing the debate if he speaks. MR. TANCHAK: I move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Oarlllon, that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR.

SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Brokenhead and the resolution in amendment thereto by the Honourable Member for Winni peg Centre, and a motion in further amendment to the amendment by the Honourable Member from St. Boniface--no, --the Honourable Member for St. Boniface is the adjournment of the amendment to the motion. !- MR. L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to move, seconded by ;'the Honourable Member from Selkirk, that on the proposed amendment of the Honourable Mem- . (' ber from Winnipeg Centre that the amendment be amended as follows: by adding the words "the government" after the word "school" in the first paragraph of said amendment and by striking out all the words after the word "and" at the end of said Iirst paragraph and by substituting the following: "whereas physical fitness is of little value without mental fitness as the two should go hand in hand; and

whereas mental and physical fitness depend in a large measure on co-ordin at ion, supervision and leadership as well as on facilities for recreation, all of which are pre sently inadequate; therefore

be it resolved that the government give consideration to the advisa bility of establishing an inter-departmental committee which would study; 1, the advisability of setting up a Department of Youth and Recreation or at least a sub-department with its own De puty Minister to deal with all phases of mental and physical fitness, leadership and training, sports and recreation; 2, the need for more and better recreation facilities". Mr. Speaker presented the motion. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, I've read my proposed amendment before speaking ort the resolution and I know that this is rather unusual, but I wanted to be sure that everyone knew what I had in mind and also for once that I might be able to speak on a subject without being told that I was out of order. Mr:·speaker, no one here is more interested in sports and physical fitness than I am. Sports have always led an important and vital

part in my life. From the day that I was old enough to lace on a pair of skates, put on ·a pair of boxing gloves, or throw a ball around, sports have always fascinated me. Mr. Speaker, I owe a lot to sports. Many of the good things that happened to me are ciw to sports. I met my wife, the former speed skating champion, while watching a hockey game at the Olympic. I met many of my good friends through sports. It might be a coincidence that one of them should be Dr. William Orbin, the Director of Physical Education at the University of Saskatchewan. Dr.

Orbin and I coached football together and we have always remained good friends. I think that Dr. Orbin is probably the Canadian that is the most qualified in this field of physical fitness. We have always remained good friends and, in . fact, Dr. Orbin and his wife are godparents to one of our daughters. i also must admit, Mr. Speaker, that sports is in a way responsible for the sad physi cal fitness that I find myself in.

Yes, I started putting on weight when I became less active in the participating sports, therefore, as you can see, I am well aware of the importance of phy sical fitness, sports and recreation. But, Mr. Speaker, I still feel that physical fitness is of little value to the individual and to our country if it's not accompanied with mental fitness. Our gaol and mental institutions are filled with people that are physically fit. We're dealing with intelligent human beings. We're not only interested in training a bunch of anl.rrials to perform at a circus.

The original motion and both the amendments mention leadership and therefore recognize the mental aspect of fitness. \\'hat have we got to gain by developing the body alone, especially in the atomic age where it would be no problem to make or build robots. I know, Mr. Speaker, that most agree here today with what I have said so far, but some might insist that these, physical fitness. and mental fitness, are two different subjects and should be treated sep arately.

So far I've tried to show that mental education and fitness should go with physical fit ness; that physical fitness, sports and recreation are an important factor in developing and maintaining mental fitness. In other words, that mental fitness should go with physical fitness Page 1088 March 1st, 1960

(Mr. Desjardins, cont1d.) ... and that physical fitness, recreation and sports are certainly a great help to mental fitness. Mens sana in corpore sano. A sound mind and a sound body. It is not my intention to have the government take away all the responsibility in this field from the people, churches, family and school. I don't intend either that the government should go on a spending spree and spend a lot of money, but I definitely think that the people of Manitoba have the right to look up to this government for leadership.

When I was preparing this speech I came across a speech of last year and I think that I could do worse than read a few extracts of this speech. I think that it will help clarify a few points that I have in mind. From July 9th of Hansard, on page 747, I would like to read: "To start, I must admit that many of the things !·advocate are being done at the present but there is a lack of co-ordination, supervision, guidance and leadership. There is also too much duplication.

At the present, preventive work on juvenile delinquency, alcohol education, mental health, that is a preventive way, physical fitness, recreational programs, pre-marriage course, etc., all these things come under the Department of Health, Education or the Attorney-General. More are left to the diff erent volunteer organizations. Most of these subjects are dealt with in churches, schools and homes and some are just neglected. I'm not accusing the government and the Hon ourable Ministers of the aforementioned departments of not being interested.

I know very well that they all know that what I am speaking of is important a�d that we have a real problem. But they themselves have so much work piled onto them that they do not know where their responsi bilities in these things begin or end. The whole program is so divided and split up that the part each department must play is minimized and this tends to divide instead of unite, and it is.-the source of most of our troubles. Here I would wish to stop a few moments and clarify a few points.

The volunteer organizations -- I would not want these many well intentioned people to think that I do not appreciate their work. No one does more than I. They will always be need ed regardless of the scheme adopted and if things are not perfect, they certainly should not shoulder any blame as they need someone to lead them and co-ordinate their efforts. The school teachers have an important job to do and we will always strive to get the best qualified teachers and those with the best approach.

The churches -- it is understood that much of the moral education and spiritual guidance, that is most of it, will come from the church and the government, and the government should encourage and help the different churches as they cannot do it alone. The home - the home is without a doubt the most important single factor in the future morale and mental welfare of a growing generation, but here again all are not blessed with a happy home. In fact, many have no home at all. " And then a little further, Mr. Speaker.

"I must make it clear that I do not intend the government should replace the church, home and school and do away with the volunteer organ izations, but that the government should be in a position to assist and co-operate; to lead and to guide; to co-ordinate and to plan; to supervise and to direct. In other words, to place this very important matter of preventive work in this field under one head, one department, one Minister, whose chief duties would be those just mentioned.

I would also like to make it clear that this program does not concern chtldren only, but all citizens except in the case of preven tive juvenile delinquency of course. I also wish to say that in the past I have talked about moral and mental education, but at the time I was not referring to religious education but only the basic principle adopted by everyone -- that is in the Golden Rule; the importance of the home. It was never my intention to talk about religion in general, or any religion in particular. " Mr.

Speaker, I feel that in society the democratic government does not do enough to encourage, to find, and to train leaders. I happened to read a certain

article on leadership a few nights ago and I think we must agree that we are definitely spending too long a time study ing the wrong people. What would happen if we turned our microscope away from studying the selfish, .the crafty, the lazy and the morally awake and focused them instead on industrious, honest, and morally strong? Let'!> think of the millions and millions of dollars we have spent to find out what makes the delinquent a delinquent. What i.s being said about non-neurotics, non-alcoholics, non-delinquents, non-screwball? Even the breeders of animals know better.

They know that you do not develop a winning race horse by studying a loser; that you will not develop prize pi.gs by studying runts. The people of this free world are at their greatest when they have a cause. All of us are better, tougher, less selfish, finer people, when we have a cause. Today we seem to have nothing to do. We are no longer building our house; we are March 1st, 1960 Page 1089

(Mr. Desjardins, cont1d. ) .. , not defending it; but what else can bring out greatness in people? -- Leaders. Even in time of peace real leaders can set a nation aflame with enthusiasm. In democracy we need 100, 000 of them at all levels, in every village, town, school, factory and farm. We should make sure that every boy and girl, every gifted boy and girl is given as much attention as our better criminals, and we might in time develop a leadership at all levels that would make it smart to be handworking, honest and unselfish. .

I agree with both the motion and the first amendment that these things should be done. If we would do it now it would only serve to confuse and it would be of less benefit. ·It would be putting the cart before the horse. Our main problem at the moment is not that; it's to co ordinate. All I want from the government, Mr. Speaker, is to provide leadership and co-or dination needed to have these diff erent programs and the different organizations of volunteers function properly and without duplication. At present these intentions are very good.

I think that most of us have very good intentions but there is utterly too much confusion. As an example I would like to comment on the Attorney-General's reply when I brought to his attention that too much obscene literature was allowed in Manitoba. Let's analyze his answer. First he agreed with me; then he stated that this had always been a source of trouble to him and the previous administration. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order,.

I wonder, and I just raise the point, I know my honourable friend is trying desperately to stay in order but I am wondering if he hasn't ' gone beyond that now because he is now attempting to revive a debate that was closed in esti mates. MR. DESJARDINS: Not at all, Mr. Spe9,ker, I am not trying to revive a debate. I am trying to give something that definitely has something to do -- I am trying to prove my point, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Well it is of course against the rules of the House to revive a debate and I am sure you will keep that in mind when you speak. MR. D. L.

CAMPBELL (Lakeside): I am sure that you would agree that a matter being discussed in estimates is not considered a debate in that sense, and it's not considered to be closed just because it was raised in estimates, I'm sure. I think you will find that the rule to which the Honourable the Attorney-General refers is where a resolution, a motion, or some substantive matter has been placed before the House and a decision has been taken. The face that it has been discussed in estimates, I am sure, does not close it. MR.

SPEAKER: . . . . . the Leader of the Opposition that the proceedings in Committee is entirely separate of·proceedings in the House. MR. DESJARDINS: Thankyou, Mr. Speaker. Iwas also told thatlcould go to courts for ac tion, but I was also warned that obscenity was a hard word to define. The Attorney-General told me that what was obscene to himand memightnot be to others. Well, Mr. Speaker, Idon'tthink thatwe should be satisfied with such an answer. Is this leadership? Does that mean that we should let our children go to the beer parlors ?

Does that mean that we should let our children go to the beer parlors because itis hard to determine when a person is drunk? Does that mean because the Attorney-Gen-" eral and I might take two or three bottles before we are drunk and the Honourable the First Minister might only need one glass, where the Honourable the Minister from Morris might need a keg? Does that meanthat? No, Mr. Speaker, obscenity is not h?rd to define at all. MR. SPEAKER: I don't think we're considering the honourable member's capacities right now. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, the answer lies in the thing itself; in the writing, picture or action. Either it is or it isn't obscene, and thus it remains so long as its basic character isn't changed. This fact was recognized 400 years ago by an English Common Law Court Justice. What is obscene is not a diff icult question because an average man on the street has understanding of the word, can readily and accurately make the necessary determination: Mr. Speaker, would you permit me to bring these magazines and show them to these kids in the gallery? No. But they can get them on any newsstand here in Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, my remarks have not. been made to embarrass the government. I am well aware that things were probably as bad under the previous government, but I don't think that we should worry about the past. I don •t think that we should worry about tradition; I think that we should make tradition'. Let us start this tradition by taking better care of our young citizens. Let us ask j Page 1090 March 1st, i96d

(Mr. Desjardins, cont'd.) •.. the government to provide the necessary leadership. What makes _the richness of Manitoba? Is it really commerce and agriculture? Or is it the minds of our citizens? I think that this example should indicate that we need a Department of Youth, Fit ness and Recreation. Another thing that this department could do, it could go in this education in the field of alcoholism. At present it is next to impossible to know what department is looking after this.

It could be the Provincial Treasurer that is in charge of grants; it could be the Minister of Health and Welfare; the Minister of Education; or the Attorney-General. Isn't this lack of co ordination obvious? Shouldn't we make it possible for the people of Manitoba to know what door to knock on? I favour alcohol education -- definitely, but not duplication of the way we have now. Not the way it is done now without the government studying the results; without the government making sure that it is accomplishing its purpose.

The government announced that it will ap point a permanent youth committee called the Attorney-General's Advisory and Co-ordinate Committee on Youth. I think that such a committee is greatly needed; that a committee would accomplish an awful lot. But the Attorney-General is too busy, and it should not be the Attor ney-General's Committee but the Minister of Youth and Recreation's Advisory Committee. Mr. Speaker, my intention is certainly not to insinuate that the Attorney-General is not capable.

On the contrary, I for one, and I think that anybody in this House will admit that he has done a terrific job, terrific work in the time that he has been there. But I feel that he is snowed under at the present and it is unfair to expect too much from him. He realizes, I am sure, the importance of what I am saying, but at the present he must share the responsibi lity in this field with two or three of his colleagues on the front bench. There is bound to be confusion, duplication and omissions. I feel, Mr.

Speaker, that my amendment is a step in the right direction and I urge the Government of Manitoba not to worry about the past tradition but make and establish good traditions; and remember that we should find a sound mind and a sound body, mens sana in corpore sano. MR. McLEAN: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for St. Boniface has made a use ful contribution to the debate on this resolution and I know that we all share his concern that we should have in Manitoba good training, best circumstances in which our boys and girls might grow up.

I feel, however, that the amendment which he has proposed is verging on the border of being out of order because it does seem to go off at a completely different angle from the original resolution and amendment, and that it is impractical in that it proposes the establish ment o:f a new department or a branch of a department and carries with it the connotation of the expenditure of public funds. Under these circumstances, Mr. Speaker, it is our intention to vote against the. sub-amendment which has been proposed by the honourable member. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? :W!R. REID: Mr.

Speaker; I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Elm wood, that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion car- ried. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Elmwood. The Honourable Member for Springfield. MR. F. T. KLYM (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I would like to add a few words to what has already been said about the big question of minimum wage in Manitoba.

To my observation I find that if wages in Canada keep on rising at the rate that they have been, then I have great fear for the future of our industries. We have been pricing ourselves out of the world market. We're doing it now and if we continue with the minimum wage and the rise in it, we'll keep on killing the point that we're working towards, and that means we will be getting out of the world 'c1arkets and early. Now that point I shall not belabour too much because the Honourable Mem "--,�r for Ethelbert Plains, last week I think, has done a great deal of justice to it.

The leading spokesman for organized labour are sheeted today with complacency. Warn ings, even recently, concerning such have not made a dent in their ideas. We have been pro mised, with pressure, for more pay·:for less work. This view has been so very ch::tracteristic of the past few years. Mr. JcdoiD;has promised us, he is seeking a fair share of Canada's prosperity in 1960. How much is fair anyways? Foreign competition shows up the increase on our side of the fence. Which would we rather be, happily disappointed or disappointedly happy? March 1st, 1960 Page 1091

(Mr. Klym, cont'd.) ... A raise in the minimum wage, I am certain, will put many·small farms out of business. The CCF resolution in that respect does not seem to worry them too much. By doing so they do not seem to see that they are trying hard to put many more people out of work just on account of careless and loose thinking. In fact, the Minimum Wage Board is sitting at present reviewing all submissions before it. The Manitoba Government has today directed the Board to make recommendations favourable to present day need so that wages will compare with the rest of the provinces.

In my opinion, every province has its own coverage and I doubt whether we from Manitoba could make much of a dent in that respect, because each province in Canada has its o\vn peculiarities with respect to labour problems. Even the United States has no $1. 25 minimum standard. Across the line in the United States they have a very narrow $ 1. 00 minimum. Some parts or regions have not a minimum wage at all. Some parts -- regions have -- that again takes in a wide scope where 50,000 people must be included in a plan. We in Manitoba have a wider coverage, standard than Ontario or even Quebec.

Now I shall also enumerate a few of the principles of the minimum wage. Our Employ ment Standards Act stipulates that the Minimum Wage Board in making recommendations to the Minister shall be guided by the cost on an employee of purchasing the necessities of life and health. This is done fiy securing reliable budgets through organizations such as the YWCA and the University of Manitoba Home Economics Faculty, etc. , etc. There is little reason for assuming that the cost of living differs widely between one sex and the other.

If, as is some times stated, the cost of living has advanced faster than wages then the budget so secured are more generous and valid reference points in the payments of wage levels. It is also alleged that a gross national product should be used as a reference point because the folks at the min imum w:age level contributed to it. While in a general way they do, the fact is that they do not contribute to the rise of the gross national product in any substantial way. for they are not using the machines, the techniques and the skills which bring about the rise.

They do make a contri bution to the volume, but on a per capita basis it is no greater than the contribution made by the unskilled, say 20 years ago. One must either take the subsistence basis or job value basis. If it io; to be the job value basis then the Board must determine the value in the community of each of the maze of jobs and stipulate the minimum rate for each. British Columbia tried to do so and their rates, vary from rates of 40 and 45 cents to a maximum of $1.00 an hour.

Ad ministration is greatly complicated in that case and would call for a flock of inspectors making very frequent the inspections. What is usually called the United States rates are no such thing. They apply only to those operations which belong to inter-state commerce, which is the only area in which the United States Federal Go.vernment has authority to fix minimum rates. The / great bulk of United States business is intra-state and not subject to it.

Only three of the most solidly ·industralized states have minimum rates anywhere near $J, 00 rate, and these rates are subject to endless exemptions and exceptions, having the effect of making the rates applicable only in high-pay industries. More than 20 states have no minimum wage at all, and scarcely any have a system whicQ_, like Manitoba, covers all employment except domestic and agricul- tural employment. Some have minimum rates only for women, just like Ontario. And some have rates applicable only in cities and major towns.

There is no intrinsic validity in $1. 25 minimum as direct and indirect labour of ser vices represent 70% of the gross national produce. One can imagine the impact of such a rate upon the availability of employment as well as prices of ordinary goods and services. Not a single province has a $1.25 :!;'ate and if the Federal Government were being compelled to pay this for unskilled and inexperienced labour it would put our taxes up out of all proportion. Those who would suffer most would be those who are on a fixed minimum income scarcely sufficient to make ends meet.

They did not have any of these crutches when they were earning, but the necessities they can just afford to buy would be the things where prices would go up s-pectacularly , which doesn't say much for the innate humanity for those who· propose it. The -one certain effect would be to make everyone's dollar worth far less than it is now, so that those who are now qualifying for pensions, which at today's prices wo:.Ud be just enough for some measure of peace and comfort, would be condemned to eke out a miserable existence. The claims that $1. 25 rate would put more money into circulation is false and vicious.

It would pu� more dollars in for a time but these dollars would be worth so much less that ad vocacy of the proposal merely shows that those who support it have not the faintest idea of the Page 1092 March lst, 1960

(Mr. Kl.ym, cont'd. ) ... basic facts of life nor any real reason or sense of moral responsib ility to the people who most need protection. It is a fallacious and most immoral attitude. Therefore I would ask this House to strorgly vote against this resolution. MR. SP EAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. D. ORLIKOW (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Burrows, that the debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER: I didn't hear your seconder. MR. ORLIKOW: The Honourable Member for Burrows. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR.

SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Mem ber for Seven Oaks. The Honourable Member for St. John's. MR. ORLIKOW: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have this matter stand. MR. SPEAKER: Order stand. Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Churchill. The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. . • • . . . • . • • continued on next page March 1st, 1960 Page 1093

MR. MARTIN: Mr . Speaker, many of us I am sure found the resolution of the Honourable Member for Churchill as very interesting . It was provocative and it sent us back to a study of our history books. We were reminded that it is just 90 years ago that this Province of Man itoba was created by the surrender of Rupertsland by the Hudson Bay Company and to provide settlements for self-government for Fort Garry. We have often heard Manitoba referred to as the postage stamp province , and it indeed deserved that name. That first Province of Manit oba had a small area of 13, 928 square miles .

Its boundaries on the north went as far as Stonewall, on the south to Emerson, Gladstone was on the western boundary and Selkirk on the east. At that time Winnipeg had about 100 people, and together with Fort Garry it formed the seat of government for the whole northwest . In 1876 the Nor thwest Territories was created to afford some form of government to the untouched wilderness of the north, north and east of Manitoba, and it was placed under the Lieutenant-Governor of Manitoba .

The phenomenal grow:th of Winnipeg at that time was reflected in the growth of areas beyond the provincial boundaries and it soon became evident that the Manitoba of 1870 was altogether too small, the boundaries, and that expansion was just a matter of time . Those were stirring times of course in the newly created province . The fur trade and the anticipation of the development of agriculture brought to Winnipeg a boom in real esta te .

But, unfortunately, the time was not ripe for a major boom and that ugly thing depression reared its head in 187 4-7 5 and the voice of the prophets as to the future of the great north land fell upon deaf ears. But that did not hold the west back . Indust:i-y-in g}c_y varying forms were established and developed by enterprising people and companies. In the early days the town of Winnipeg was an interest irg place in which to live. It was, as the historian says, a turbulent, aggres sive democracy, even to the extent, Mr .

Speaker, that in 1871, the year after the province was formed, a jeer rug mob reduced the Attorney-General to draw his revolver in self-defence . I am speaking of 1871. In 1876 Winnipeg was growing, and growing in every way in wl,ckedness. It was regard ed to be perhaps one of the most evil places in Canada, and at a convention held at the YMCA earnest prayers were offered for the moral reformation of Winnipeg .

The tide of immigration though, flowed on, and settlement was being crea ted beyond the boundaries of the province -- Crystal Creek, which later became Crystal City, Rock Lake , Cypress Creek, Turtle MOtmtain, Shoal Lake and so forth. Well between the years 1876 and 1881 there was an influx of 40 , 000 immigrants .

In 1877 Lord Dufferin, Governor-General of Canada, visited the province and he visited many settlements , the settlement of the Red River Valley, the Mennonites of the East Reserve, and the Icela ndic people of Gimli, and he empha sized to the. new province their national destiny and their place in the sisterhood of Canadian provinces . In 1881 the boundaries were extended to 53rd degree north latitude. That, Mr . Speaker, would be just beyond Russell and Birtle and Burton, a territory into which 60,000 settlers had come since 1876. In 1881 I, say it was extended, but the end was not yet .

This young province was suffering from a severe attack of growing pains and it demanded further extension, and in the Legislature of the enlarged Manitoba in 1881 the slogan was, "On to the Bay." But after a long wait, in 1912 the province was extended to 60 degree parallel of north latitude, so that Manitoba then became a maritime province with an outlet to the sea at what is now Church ill. And it is this new Manitoba that boasts important cities so vitally related to our ever-expanding economy. Flin Flon, where we were told the other day, Mr .

Speaker, you have the finest people in t.'J.e world; and The Pas, where we were told they have the fastest people in the world. And within the year of the extension of the province, the construc tion of the Hudson Bay Railroad was under way. I have given you, Mr. Speaker, this thumbnail sketch of our growing province since it was cr eated in 1870. And I say it must have required tremendous observation and foresight and courage and enterprise on the part of the early pioneers to tackle this program of expan sion and development .

Nothing was before them but the vast wilderness of undeveloped ·count ry, and today everyone who has the capacity to assess the situation recognizes the vrlsdcm of their enterprise. And this , Mr . Speaker, gives good reason to the suggestion of the resolu tion concerning the further extension of our boundaries to include the district of Keewatin.

In fact , I find that when the district of Keewatin was created in 1876 and placed under the Lieuten ant-Governor of Manitoba, it was the anticipation of the Legislature that the day would com e when thi�· district would be incorporated as a part. of Manitoba,c Page 1094 March 1st, 1960

(Mr. Martin, cont'd) .•• I was very much in terested in the speech of my honourable friend from Churchill,. For that word Churchill, Mr. Speaker, is a magic word in Manitoba's history. I recall some years ago going with a government expedition i..r:tto the far north. What great excitement there was when the gallant ship Nascopie arrived at Churchill and there we were to await a freighter that would bring us a load of coal from Britain, when we could be refueled and con tinue our journey to Ellesmere Island to within 750 miles of the North Pole.

And this sturdy British ship that was bringing us the coal was going to take back a cargo of wheat. So, Mr . Speaker, the Member for Churchill is the only member of this Legislature who represents a seaport. We are acct;LStomed to think of Churchill as being on the northerly boundary of the province, but this resolution, if it came to fruition, could very well relegate Churchill to the cent:r:e of the province so that the residents up north would speak of going down south to Churchill. Slowly but surely, Mr .

Speaker, the curtain of a new empire of the north is being rolled back, and in the terms of this resolution the Arctic Circle would be well within the bounds of our province . , I know even as you listen to me that some are saying, "It's a good story but it's an impractical scheme; it's a fantastic idea." Well, Mr.

Speaker, if our great grandsires could have heard stories of a coming day when the boundless wilderness of our western country would be traversed by ribbons of shining steel and covered by networks of broad highways that would take thousands of horseless carriages at the rate of more than a mile a minute, that is providing that the radar equipment of the Attorney-General was out of action; if we were told of a coming day when the landscape would be dotted with giant elevators to receive the grain harvested by mighty power-driven machines; they would have laughed scornfully. But, Mr .

Speaker, it has come to pass and the unconquered plains, once the undisturbed kingdom of the buffalo, have surrendered to the march of civilization and have become scenes of the pulsating life of thriving throbbing cities , and the teepee of the Indian has given place to sky scraper buildings and palatial homes. This district of Keewatin seems a long way off but it's a practical idea and practicable . And in addition, Mr.

Speaker, it would give to Manitoba a portion of Canada which represents one of the most alluring chapters of our Dominion and indeed of the history of the northern half of this North American continent. You studied the map which was placed on your desks the other day. It outlined the area of the district of Keewatin; it indicated numerous straits and bays and islands and inlets that bear na.J):les that have a significant meaning in the annals of exploration and discovery in this western world.

Hudson, Parry, Ross -- immortal names linked with the story of the great adventure of seeking a Northwest Passage; solving the age-long riddle of the north, how to fi..-:td a way to Cathay to the land of spices and perfume. Well, Mr. Speaker, you know how grim failure dogg13d their pathway, but victory came at last. True men like Henry Hudson perished but Ross discovered the north magnetic pole which is situated on the Boothia Peninsula and there, I understand, a cairn has been erected to mark the spot. Parry carried the flag of empire half way around the world and Parry spent one winter on Melville Island.

Sir John Franklin was the greatest explorer of them all. He perished -- when we went north on the expedition to which I'v e spoken we were shown a piece of British oak which had been washed ashore the year before at Boothia Peninsula, and it was believed to be a piece of oak from one of Franklin's ships, indicating that he forged the north-west passage with his life. Mr. Speaker, all this is part of our Canadian heritage, and I want to say - and it is not just idle sentiment - what a proud thing it would be if we could say that these epic scenes in our history are a part of the story of Manitoba.

We are told that attraction of tourists to the province offers the best opportunity for developing new revenues. Well, Mr. Speaker, this new Manitoba could prove to be a real bonanza of tourist attraction. My friend the Minister of Commerce and Industry would be in a position to announce sea excursions along the hundred miles of coastline of the Maritime Province of Manitoba to isl"nds and to areas that by reason of the adventures and the achievements of great explorers have become places of world renown. And it would pen a new

chapter in the already splendid record of the activities of the Travel and Publicity Bureau of this province . But, Mr. Speaker, tourism is not the most important industry related to the District of Keewatin. The resolution suggests the worthwhileness of intensive geological surveys. March 1st, 1960 Page 1095

(Mr. Martin,· cont1d) ..••.. Some survey has been carried on to a limited degree and has brought interesting discoveries. Reference was made by my honourable friend from Churchill to the North Rankin Nickel Mines which has produced thousands of tons of nickel and the high grade nickel concentrate has been shipped through the Port of Churchill to the smelter at Fort Saskatchewan. The other day in the dominion House of Commons the resources minister Alvin Hamilton replied to a question concerning oil and gas exploration, Arctic oil and gas rights .

And in the course of his answer he said: "F or the Northwest Territories, there are 1, 536 applications for a total of 7 3, 153 , 7 44 acres. The breakdown of the application of the Arctic Islands:- 10 Canadian companies, 39, 500, 000 acres; 3 Canadian subsidiaries and United states compan ies 12 and a half million acres; 1 United Kingdom company 2, 300, 000 acres and 20 other occupations." When you think of that, Mr. Speaker, you are reminded of the fact that the eyes of the world are fastened upon Canada and economic opportunities that it affords. But these are not the only industries .

Anyone who knows the history of the north knows what a place fur has played in its progress, and fur is a great industry of the district to which we are referring. And also as the member for Churchill pointed out, the fish there abound in great numbers . Now even as I say this I am aware of the fact that the word that comes readily to your minds is the word muskeg. We've heard that very often in this House .

I read an art icle taken from the Imperial Oil Review under date of December 1958, "How They Are Winning the war Against Muskeg", and the writer points out that across the north of Ca nada is this mass of spongy, treacherous, evil-smelling substance that has probably done more to hold back northern development than anything else . He says it covers 500, 000 square miles, an area bigger than France, East and West Germany, Greece, all lumped together.

One engin eer -- ·apart from the story, one engineer says, "I have found by bitter experience that the problems of road building through muskeg are numerous, the worries endless, and the cost dumfounding. It has hit every industry in the north." But I would like to point out, Mr . Speak er, that there has been an extraordinary development and revolution involving muskeg; there are certain elements and constituents -- I am not a chemist but ,I'm told that it's possible to transform the bog to farm lands . And to return to the

article which appeared in the Imperial Oil Jrurnal, the writer says that he believes that within 15 years cities will spring up over the far north largely because of the defeat of muskeg -- and if the Minister of Agriculture were here I know his ears would be wide open when we say -- and that farms would be growing up and produce everything from grain to vegetables right across the whole of the north; and we would be using muskeg productivity instead of trying to destroy it. About sixty miles north from Toronto, Mr . Speaker, is an area that I know very well indeed.

For many many years it was a useless area unfit for cultivation, a great vast marsh land . But there came a day when some immigrants from Central Europe arrived and journeyed there and they saw this black spongy soil, but they saw in it acres of diamonds . They purchased the land; they applied themselves to the task of cultivation; they produced a wonderful harvest of celery and other vegetables , and tcday, Sir, the Holland Marshes represents one of the most prosperous vegetable growing areas of the province. All of which means, Mr.

Speaker, that the story of muskeg is not all tragedy and lost causes, and lost bulldozers, and lost other vehicles swallowed up by the engulfing pestilence. And then again as the member for Churchill pointed out, one of the redeeming sides of the story is peat . My honourable friend suggested that in northern Manitoba and in the .district of Keewatin we have vast areas of peat and peat moss which could be utilized·. He outl ined very clearly how such utilizatiOJl would play an important

part in the Canadian industrial world and in manufactures. We often hear references made to the Soviet Republic . Well, it is interesting in this connection to realize that in Russia they use 40, 000, 000 tons of peat burned in Russian power houses every year and that hundreds of students and scientists are working in the peat institute. I was in Newfoundland in the fall . I met some of the men in the paper industry, the pulp and paper industry, and they told me of one man who addressed a muskeg conference.

He was the supervisor of the Newfoundland bogland development scheme and he said to the dele gates, "There are 6 million acres of peat in Newfoundland and contrary to the way you gentle men may feel about it, we like it ." Well, Mr . Speaker, the problem of peat is beset by great difficulti� s but bec�use Canada has such giant potential resources, one of the greatest in the Page 1096 March 1st, 1960

(Mr. Martin, cont' d) ....• world, in the light of what's happe:D.ing in other places and in other parts of our own country, this is a subject worthy of the closest possible study. We are liv ing in a day when modern engineering science refuses to be bogged down by any obstacles or any forbidding opposition, and it's well within the range of reason and common sense to believe that muskeg will become a docile servant instead of cantankerous tyrant as we think of it today. Well Mr.

Speaker , before I close, into this whole picture comes the question of the adequate means of transportation, and transportation as we've heard again and again in this House in the far north and in the not-so-far north is not an easy problem. We have the rapidly growing Port-of Churchill with its marine and aircraft facilities -- not at all adequate to the growth of Churchill.

I know there was the time when some said, "Why did you build the Hudson's Bay Railroad?" and "Why did you establish the port?' Well, the grain ships that are going backwards and forwards are taxing beyond the capacity of the port so that sometimes they have to wait out in the bay until there is wharfage. It is becoming a great port . The season, of course, is short - just about eight or nine weeks. But again science comes to our ald. My honourable friend referred to nuclear powered freighters that will operate under the ice throughout the winter months.

And when we remember what the gallant ship of the United States Navy, The Nautilus , did last year, we can see how reasonable is this proposition. And I understand, Sir, that a submarine especially designed to carry iron ore from Diana Bay in Quebec, northern Quebec to Great Britain is being now carefully studied. And when I say Diana Bay it brings to mind a vital

chapter in the history of Quebec related to this resolution. Two years ago that ancient province celebrated its 350th annivers ary, -- we, ninety years -- and during the intervening centuries it has expanded and extended its boundaries from New York and New England States to Hudson Straits and from Hudson Bay to Newfoundland, an area served of 600, 000 square miles. Now the northern part of the province of Quebec is the region of Ungava andthat is known as New Quebec. Ungava is an Eskimo word that means far away, and the people who lived there were far away people.

Prior to 1912 when the present boundaries of Manitoba were established, prior to that year, Ungava like Keewatin today, was a district of the Northwest Territories .. It comprised the land north oflatitude 52 degrees. In 1912 it became a part of '-'tebec. Heaven knows it's a forbidding country, muskeg and copper clifted hills and iron bound coastlines_. But the geologist discov ered in it a land of great promise and they followed up their dreams, Sir, with tenacity of purpose, and today Ungava is a land of rich fulfillment.

At Sheffordville in the centre of Ungava is an intensive iron ore development connected with the coast by railroad. In 1912 they were established, it became a part of Quebec -- all the way to 1954 -- some years -- but in 1954 they shipped their first ore of 2 million tons; in 1956 it was increased to 13 billions and now they are planning an annual output of 20 million tons.

On the west coast of Ungava from Cape Smith to Wakeham Bay, a very isolated part -- geologists have been working there and they have discovered deposits of copper and nickel and zinc and lead, and one day, it is firmly believed that one day it will be brought into large scale production. And, Mr . Speaker, when I think of what's happened in Quebec with a vast area of the district of Ungava, I realize how important it would be for Manitoba if the district of Keewatin with its great wealth could become a p::.rt of our province. The situation in many respects is similar.

Geographically the west shore of Ungava and the eastern shore of the district of Keewatin are washed by the waters of Hudson's Bay and the exploratory reports are akin in both areas . And I've said before that with this great asset of the province, the proximity of the Port of Churchill, if we could achieve the results suggested by this resolution, we in Manitoba would be as proud of our Manitoba arctic as the people down east are of their Quebec arctic . So I admire the spirit, Mr. Speaker, exhibited by my honourable friend. I looked around and everyone was deeply interested. There were no smirks and smiles.

Nobody seemed to say, "he's crying for the moon." Well, someone has said if you cry for the moon one day you'll hit between the earth and the moon; but we 're living in a day, Mr . Speaker, when reaching the moon is not an impossible target. We have a government in power today, :Mr. Speaker, possessing a spirit of enterprise that nothing can defeat and no obstacle can thwart. My honourable friend, the-Leader of the CCF came back from an important engagement March 1st, 1960 Page 1097

(Mr. Martin, .cont'd) ...•• the other day and he was full of poetry. He recited a lovely piece of poetry --'- I don't know just whether he revised it but it was very apt and it was very much to the point. Well, I have a little bit of poetry here, that's a revised version somewhat, that "Doug and Russ said it couldn't be done; but Duff with a chuckle replied, maybe it couldn't but he would be one who wouldn't say no till he'd tried.

So he buckled right in with the trace of a grin on his face; if he worried he hid it, and he tackled the thing Doug and Russ said couldn't be done, and by Christopher he did it." And, Mr . Speaker, that' s the spirit and spunk that has put this party on your right and that is the s pirtt and spunk which gives meaning to the resolution of my honourable friend from Churchill. Naturally, Mr. Speaker, if it came to pass there would have to be some form of redistribution or adding to our territory.

You couldn't expect my honourable friend to go all the way up to Churchill, up to Boothia Peninsula, up to Melville Peninsula as part of his territory. And cam paigning would be hard slugging. Elec tions would have to be held in the summertime because if our candidates went to visit one of his constituents in the winter time and decided that he was going to spend the Whole evening discussing the decline and fall of the Liberal empire, he would be there six months. But of course -- the name of the Eskimos is a slang phrase -- eaters of raw flesh.

Their proper name is the Innuit, and when we went north we took with us a message from His Majesty the King, then, to ''my beloved Innuits." And Mr. Speaker, one day perhaps we shall have the inspiring spectacle of seeing a native of that far north region occupying one of the seats of the mighty here in Her Majesty' s Legislature; one of Her Majesty's Innuits . In his campaign before he gets here, of course, he will have to go from igloo to igloo; and when he goes what a welcome he will have .

They will roll out the seal rug; they will prepare the seal blubber feast; and by the light of the seal oil lamp they will realize as they watch that one of their own kith and kin is carrying a. sealskin banner which says, "A vote for me is a vote for Duff, and a vote for Duff is a vote for a new day of hope and opportunity for this new Manitoba in the land of the midnite sun." Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Are you re!ldy for the question? MR.

ORLIKOW : Mr, Speaker, I have no intention of taking the members of this Legislature on a Cook's Tour of this province, or, indeed, even of a Cook' s Tour of the enlarged province, enlarged to twice the size as proposed by the member from Churchill, and as so ably and so eloquently seconded by the Honourable Member from St . Matthews . This resolution is in a grand tradition of the empire builders and the expanders both in Can ada and in the United States over the last hundred or hundred and fifty years, and it would be somewhat foolish for me to oppose this resolution. The Honourable Member for St.

Matthews ended on a somewhat jocular note about the day when we might have in this House a represent ative ofthe Eskimos who come from this area which it is proposed that we bring in to this province . I hope that day will come some day, Mr. Speaker.

I had the - I was going to say fortune, but I would be more correct if I said the misfortune; at least it was a misfortune in terms of how I felt and my pride in being a Ca nadian -t o read just someiwoweeks ago a book written by a pretty well-�own author in Canada whose articles have appeared frequently in MacLea ns Magazine, Farley Mowat, a book called "The Forgotten People," a book about what happened in this country of ours, in this Ca nada of ours, indeed in this very area which the Honourable Member for Churchill proposes we should include in the province of Manitoba.

It' s a story which I want to tell the members of this House they ought to read. It is a story which is chilling and full of foreboding, because what happened, Mr. Speaker, the author is talking about a period of time' not of 100 or 150 years ago, but this is what happened to a gl;'oup of people within the last 20 years . A group of people, Eskimos by origin, who had by tradition going back hundreds of years being -- lived through the capture of the Ca ribou. Through no fault of theirs the Ca ribou have virtually disappeared.

These people had no other way of living - they knew no other way of living -- and despite the fact that their plight was knmvn to the Department of Northern Affairs, was known to white people who were up there doing the installation of various types of defense equipment, despite the fact that their plight was known to church orgal:tizations who were working there, these people were permitted virtually to die from starvation.

A few of them are still living; a few of them were fortunate enough to live long enough until the nickel mine of which the honourable member has spoken of at Rankin Inlet opened and they are now worldng there; they are now integrated; the_y are now doing an Page 1098 March 1st, 1960

(Mr. Orlikow , cont'd) ..••. excellent job. Mr. Speaker, the people of Canada certainly cannot be proud of what we did in terms of the people who now live there . Now I will not question the statements which were made by the Honoura ble Member from st. Matthews today, and the statement made by the Honourable Member from Churchill when he introduc ed this re solution as to the potential value of that ar ea. We know because we have seen in recent years what has been discovered in northern Manitoba, at Thompson and other sites, that there is tremendous mineral wealth in this area.

We can be reasona bly certain alrea dy that there is tremendous oil and natural gas in this are a. The honourable member spoke about the fish that are in the lakes there; about the fur reso urces which are there . We know that this is a fact,but Mr . Speaker, it seems to me that it is easy for us here today ,or if somebody adjourns the debate today, a few days later, to vote for this res olution. I wonder, Mr.· Speaker, whether however, it is really practical to expect the Province of Manitoba, the people of Manitoba to find the resources to develop this ar ea. Pm not saying that it isn't, Mr.

Speaker, but it may be , and this has been suggested on the federal level; this is not a new ide a. I think the Premier of British Columbia has already recomme nded that all the area north of the presen t boundar ies of British Columbia should be included in that provin ce . I think that the Premier of Alberta has recomme nded a similar proposal there . And it's easy to say this is the way that it should be done, but it may be, Mr . Speaker, that the best way is that there should be one or two new provin ces in the Northwest Territorie s, rathe r than a simple extension of the present provinc es northward .

I'm not saying that this is so - I am not a technical expert, Mr . Speaker . But it seems to me that we in this country -- and I'm not being critical -- have only begun to scra tch the surface of the north country. There are various reasons both economic, geogra phical and political for the fact that the Soviet Union has probably done more in the last fifty years than we have done in the last three hundre d years in the north, our country . They have a whole series of cities in the nort hern area, in what we consider the Arctic area, which have more than a hundred thousand people in them.

We haven't a single city in Canada. They have developed the coal; they have developed the gold; they have developed power resourc es . ·I 'm not saying that there aren�t reasons for it . I know that most of the rive rs which flow north in the Soviet Union are ice fr ee a good part of the year . I know that they have importa nt power resources which they have been able to tap; i know that they have agricultural land which we don't seem to have in the north country . But it seems to me, Mr.

Speaker, that this matter of the development of the north is of such great import a."lce to the people of Canada; the use of the resources of the north is so crucial to the people of Canada that we ought to give a good deal more serious thought, not just here in this Legislature , but in the legislatures of the four western province s and in consultation with the federal government and its department before we assume so blithely and so eagerly that the real solution for the development of the north is the extension of the pres ent provinces to the North Pole. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I am not going to vote against this res olution but it does seem to me- it seemed to me as I listened to the Honourable Member for St. Matthews that possi bly what he was suggesting would lead to a conflict between ''the vision of DieL and the vision of Duff." I'm not going to vote against this re solution but it seems to me that we need a good deal more thought about this matter before we know exactly how we proceed with it. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. W. B. SCARTH, Q. C. (River Heights) : Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Honourable Member for Cypress that the debate be adjour ned. Mr . Speaker pres ented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carri ed. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resol ution of the Honourable Leader o;f the CCF Party . The Honourable Leader of the CCF. He is now closing the debate. MR. PAULLEY: Mr . Speaker, I don't know whether or not the House will want to listen to much from me this afternoon after listening to the splendid oration of the Honourable M\')mber for St. Matthews .

I would, however, suggest to him in respect of the resol ution. de aling with the extension of the northe rn boundaries of the Provi.nce of Manitoba, that he possibly should give consideration to supporting my res olution in calling for compulsory auto mobile insurance to ensure that when the ''vision of Dief and Duff'' is real ized, if it's going to be, that the people are fully protected on the highways in that grea t northern expanse from March 1st, 1960 Page 1099

(Mr . Paulley; cont• d) ••... automobiles. (Interje ction) . , __ In introducing this resolution both this year and previously, we have done so because of a firm conviction that the right of the use of our highways entailed the responsibility of making provision for any injury or disaster which may result as the result of the privilege of the freedom of the road . Last year in the debates on this particular resolution many of the memb ers who are engaged in the insurance profession spoke.

This year they did not choose to which may indicate to me that at long last they are coming along to the contention that protection is a consideration above all else. I noted that the Honourable Member for Selkirk in his contribu tion -- which was a fine one insofar as this debate was co� cerned -- dwelt mainly with the aspects of highway safety. And I agree with him most he artily that the question of highway safety should be uppermost in our minds at all times.

As a matter of fact, as the House well knows in the Commi ttee on Law Amendmen ts , we are dealing with amendments to the High ways Traffic Act and embodied in those amendments in almost every

section is the considera tion for highway sa fety. So I agree most heartily with that aspect along with the Honourable Member for Selkirk. And then the other day we were privileged to hear a person, namely the Honourable Member for River Heights, who I take it, was acting as the spokesman for the government in respect of this resolution .

His remarks, while in teresting, I don't think were too constructive beca use it appeared to me that the general tenor of his remarks in opposition to this resolution dwelt mainly on the possibility of the establishment of a socialistic principle respecting automobile insurance here in the Province of Manitoba. My honourable friend does not think that that is good. He nods his head in agreement .

The Honourable the Minister of Health and Welfare in dealing with his estimates last night, pointed with pride to the fact that in respect of compulsory hospital insurance in the Province of Manitoba, that 99 1/2 percent of the Citizens of Manitoba are covered. There seems to be no compatibility between the pride of one member opposite on one hand and the fears of anothe r member who I take it was speaking on behalf of the government in respect of another aspect of insurance. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley) : The honourable member can speak for himself as all private members do, Mr . Speak er . MR.

PAULLEY: Fine. Then I take it •..... MR. ROBLIN : .•.•. no reflection on you William •... MR. PAULLEY: Then I take it in the absence of any criticism or participation in this debate that the government is simply not interested in the aspects of full coverage of automobile insurance in the Province of Manitoba . And I would sugg est that they should . (Interje ction) I suggest to the members opposite that on important resolutions like this that if the members of the second and third row who take

part in debates of this nature who propose amendments in many instances to change the complex of the whole resolution are only doing it as individuals, then the re should be more participation by the members in the very front row. (Interjection) .. Yes , certainly . (Interje ction) ...

No, I would say to my honourable friend, the Leader of the House, we may not monopolize private membe rs' day, or they may not, but I do suggest to them that if they, on the other hand; say that each of the members on resolutions of this nature are only speaking for them selve s, then it is time that the government took a stand on some of the private members' resolutions that are introduced, because it is very obvious to me -- and I' m sure, Mr .

Speaker, that it's obvious to everyone -- that, depending on how the private member of the government caucus votes, 9 times out of 10, so follow -- if follow is the correct word -- the members of the front bench . MR. KEITH ALEXANDER (Roblin): Is yours any different? MR. PAULLEY: Yes, definitely it's different; however . . . . MR. ALEXANDER: Haven' t seen it yet . MR . PAULLEY: - Oh you haven't seen anything yet . As a matter of fact I som etimes wonder whether you've been here long enough to have your eyes opened. MR. ALEXANDER : Ce rtainly long enough to have your party open them . MR. J. M.

HAWRYLUK (Burrows) : He's got a lot to learn yet . MR. PAULLEY: Now then, Mr . Speaker, if I may get down to the other points.: (Inter jection) .. You like that ? Well I'm afraid that I might get into conflict -with Mr. Speaker and a few. other individuals so I'd better not pursue that point, but I think it's -- my last remarks were very very valid aprop os of that . Page 1100 March 1st, 1960

MR . CAMPBELL: Oh I think he ..•...• MR . PAULLEY: I'm sure he does. A MEMBER : Can we rely on him for ..... MR .

PAULLEY: Now then, another fear that my honourable friend the me mber for River Heights had in respect of the institution of a compulsory automobile insurance with the government as the insurer, one of his fears was the question - and I'm quoting from page 987 of Hansard of February 26th - "this province should not lightly create a government monopoly which will have the effect of depriving many insurance men who have spent their adult lives in automobile insurance, of depriving them of their livelihood or a substantial portion of their livelihood. " That, to me, Mr.

Speaker, _was very interesting coming from the honourable member. I wonder if, when labour raises objection to the effect of automation depriving them of their livelihood, whether my honourable friend will take the same stand.

And as we have it on record now, that in respect of the insurance agent who may be affected by a government monopoly in insurance depriving them of their livelihood, I'm sure that we have with us in the person of the Honourable Member for River Heights a colleague in respect of the possible ill effects of autom ation on the worker whose livelihood is displaced by the machines that they create. Now then, there were other points that were raised by my honourable friend. He pointed out that the government agency n;ust collect a million dollars as premiums or else be subsidized by the province.

I want to say to him that in the only province in Canada which has a compulsory automobile insurance scheme with the government as the insurer, that neither has the government subsidized the plan or has the plan subsidized the government - one of the basic principles of the insurance has been that the losses and gains incurred to the holders of the premium s.

And while it is true that in the history of the plan in Saskatche wan there were years in which the premiums were not sufficient to cover the losses sustained in that year -- and there were loans made in order to cover those -- the net effect that ove r a period of years that in the Province of Saskatchewan at the present time there are accumulated assets or surplus of some four millions of dollars which is an insurance in itself against losses at the present time. MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q. C. (Selkirk): Would the honourable member permit aq ues tion , Mr . Speaker? MR . PAULLEY: Certainly. MR .

HILLHOUSE: Could he tell the House to what extent private insurance companies have subsidized the Saskatchewan government insuran.ce scheme? MR . PAULLEY: I would say in answer to that, that the private insurance companies have not subsidized the Saskatchewan plan to the extent of a red cent. Now I don't want to enter into an argument with my friend . He asked me a question; I have answered it. MR. HILLHOUSE: Well, would you answer another question ?

Is it true that under the Saskatchewan government insurance scheme that where a private insurer is on the risk with the Saskatchewan government that the private insurer must pay the full amount of its coverage before the government is called upon to pay a cent? MR . PAULLEY: Yes Mr. Speaker, that is true, and there is a basic principle as ·to why it is true .

Because of the fact that in the province of Saskatchewan the basic coverage bei.Jg a minimum coverage and because each and every individual or every individual who operates an automobile in that is covered by that, that if anybody undertakes additional coverage which includes that from a private company is in effect -- the first charge comes on the private company. It's true; but the contention is that the minimum coverage is provided in the compulsory insurance and that it. ·being an insurance of that nature it only necessarily follows that that should be so, and that is the way the plan works in Saskatchewan.

And I might say, Mr. Speaker, in respect of the private insurance companies that operate in Saskatch ewan, they know that full well when they go in there to operate . Now then, my honourable friend the member for River Heights speaking the_ other day drew to the attention of the House the fact that in :Massachusetts they have a compulsory auto mobile insurance scheme. This scheme is not a scheme operated by the state goverilment of Massachusetts insofar as premiums are concerned. It is a compulsory automobile insurance with private companies being the insurer .

My honourable friend pointed out in his debate that March 1st, 1960 Page 1101

(Mr . Paulley, cont'd) ..... in respect of the State of Massachusetts that the premiums were continuously going up year after year . He attributed that factor to the compulsory feature of the automobile insuran ce .

I suggest to him that it shouldn't be attributed to the compulsory feature of the insurance at all, but because of the fact that the compulsory insurance is handled by private insur ance companies, and that is the reason -- not the compulsory aspects of it -- but because of the fact that there is no control insofar as premiums and rese rves within the hands of a government agency such as they have in the Province of Saskatchewan. Now Mr . Speaker, in conclusion, I don •t want to belabour further on this.

I think that it is a resolution that req uires the serious consideration and support of all member s of this House . We note with interest that the Manitoba Farmers Union of Manitoba have banded themselves together into a co-operative effort to obtain premiums in respec t of automobile insurance as cheaply as they can.

The reason that they found themselves in a position where they had to take that under consideration was because they felt, and I think rightly so, that without some co-operative measure s the premiums in respect of automobile insurance were higher than they should be . , In the closing rem arks of my honourable friend the member for River Heights he told us that it should be borne in mind that only 3. 2% of the motorists of Manitoba are at present uninsure d. I think the figure and the perc entage is correct, but in the meantime, Mr .

Speaker, I suggest to this House that while the relative percentage may be low the 3. 2% could be the causer of many accidents without responsi bility until such time as they had their first accident. Because it is well known in our law in Manitoba, financial responsi bility does not come into force until an operator or a drive r of a motor vehicle has proved as a result of an accident that he is not financially able to pay for it.

And further to that, that if eventually through an order in the courts an- awar d is made on the Unsatisfied Judgment Fund of the Province of Manitoba the 96 .8 % of the motorists of Manitoba who are covered by automobile insurance in addition to paying their automobile coverage have through their contributions to the Unsa tis fied Judgment Fund created a pool for the financial risks incur red by the other 3.2 %. I say, Mr. Speaker, that the 3. 2% should carry their full responsi bility.

I say that we should have compulsory automobile insurance in the Province of Manitoba, and I say that because of the fact that through co-operative insurance with those who participate having the opportunity through safe driving and consideration of the others setting the premium themselves, that the Government of Manitoba should be the insurer . Mr . Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion defeated. MR. PAULLEY: The Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members.

The question before the House is the Resolu tion proposed by the Honourable Leader of the CCF party which reads as follows :

Whereas each year finds an . increase in the number of motor vehicles on our highways; and

whereas each year also finds increases in accidents caused by motor vehicles involving injury and loss of life to persons and damage to property; and further,

whereas many owners of motor vehicles do not carry insurance against injury and loss of life to persons, and damage to property, therefore

be it resolved that in the opinion of this House the Governmen t should give conside ration to the advisability of the establishment of compulso+"y Motor Vehicle Insurance in Manitoba with the Government as the Insur er . · YEAS: Messrs . Gray, Hawryluk, Orlikow , Paulley, Peter s, Reid, Schrey er, Wagner , Wright . NAYS: Honourable Messrs . Roblin,' Carrell, Johnson, McLean, Evans, Lyon9 Thompson, Witney, Ridley, Hutton .

Messrs : Lissaman, Sh ewman, Prefontaine , Campbell, Hryho rczuk, Alexander, Scarth, Mart in, Cowan, Corbett, Chris tianson, Tanchak, Molgat, Hillhouse , Guttormson, Watt, Ingebrigtson, Jeannotte, Stanes , Smellie , Strick land, McKellar , Weir, Seaborn, ·Johnson, Baizley, Bjornso n, . Klym, Hamilton, Froe se, Dow; · Shoemaker, Roberts, Desjardins . MR. CLERK: Yeas - 9; Nays - 44. MR. SPEAKER: I declare the motion lost. Adjourne d debate on the Proposed Res olution of the Honourable Member for Logan. The Honoura � le Member for Elmwood. MR. PETERS: Mr .

Speaker, after readi ng this res olution over, and re ading the Page 1102 March 1st, 1960

(Mr. Peters, con t'd) ..... fair wage

schedule under the Fair Wage Act, I cannot see why the government didn't readily accept this resolution, because if we read the fair wage sched ule, there. are people working in t1is province that are not covered by this act, particularly the people that are working in the far north. Yesterday we passed second reading of a bill banning discrimination against race, color and creed, and everybody is in favor of it.

Here we. are discrim inating against people in the north; we are telling employers you can work those people as much as you want; you don't have to pay them any time and a half or any penalty time; go and work them all you like . It's dollars and cents -- we'll allow discrimina tion there. I think, Mr. Speaker, this is a very good example of why we should have a full time Minister because if he had more time he could have spent more time on problems deal ing with labour . The Minister of Labour also holds another position which is very imp ortant and I· don't care who the man is .

I don't think that we have a man big enough in Manitoba to hold two such important positions. Today at Thompson, some of the employees are organized. They are covered by a union contract which calls for a 54-hour week and that's all they work, or whenever overtime is necessary they work overtime and they get paid time and a half. But the unfortunate people that aren't covered by union contracts are forced to work long hours without getting any ·remuneration for it . And there, Mr . Speaker, I think thatwe are violat ing a principle that has been set up not only in Manitoba but practically the world over.

The principle of when an employee works a certain amount of hours, if he works over that amount he should get paid time and a half for his labours, which is only fair and right. Here we are allowing the government to let employers discriminate against -- there are, I understand, all different types of people working in the northland; there are people of Indian origin, white people and colored people, and I also understa..'ld that some of them are living in separ ate accommodations - get different types of food and the likes of that. And I don't think this should be allowed to carry on any further.

It's a very simple resolution, just asking the government to make sure that all the people in the Province of Manitoba are covered by the fair wage

schedule and not let big business take advantage and discrimin ate against employees. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. ARTHUR E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): The Honourable Member for Logan is ill today and I know he would like to say a few words in closing the debate. Would it be in order for me to move the adjournment? MR. SPEAKER: Yes . MR. CARROLL: Mr . Speaker, I believe the member from Brokenhead has already spoken. Was it Brokenhead? Oh, I'm sorry . MR. WRIGHT: The proposer of the motion, Mr. Speaker . I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Fisher, .that the debate be adjourned. Mr.

Speaker presented the motion. MR. PETERS: Mr . Speaker, that's on the understanding that the Honourable Member from Logan, when he is here, will be closing the debate. MR. SPEAKER: On the understanding that he will close the debate ? (Interjection) I would think any other member would have the right to speak before him. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and.after a voice vote declared the motion carried. Jl,ffi. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for St. John1-s. The Honourable Member for st. James . lv'.R. D. M. STANES (St. James}: Mr.

Speaker, I would beg the indulgence of the House to allow thls matter to stand. MR. SPEAKER: Order stand. Adjou;rned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Brokenhead. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. ALEXANDER: Mr . Speaker , I would ask that this be allowed to stand. MR, SPEAKER: Order stand. Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for st. Boniface . The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. A. H. CORBETT (Swan River) : In the absence of the Honourable Member for st. Vital, is it permissible for me to say a few words.on thiS? MR. SPEAKER: Yes . . liJIR.

CORBETT: Well, Mr . Speaker, regarding the proposed resolution of the Honour; ·able Member for St. Boniface, I· have grave doubts as to the propriety of asking the members . March 1st, 1960 Page 1103

(Mr. Corbett, cont'd) .•.•. of_ this House to pass judgment either favourable or unfavourable on a resolution which requests the Provincial Government to petition the Federal Government to correct or make some improvement in a portion of the river bank lying within the confines of an incorporated municipality, unless said request presents some substantiating evidence that due to some act of the Federal Government under our navigable streams management, or some other interference with natural proces ses, the Federal Government is entirely responsible for the changing conditions at this particular point .

No doubt the raising and lowering of the water levels of the Red River each spring and fall due to the closing and open ing of St. Andrews Dam and Locks has some influence on the slippage and erosion occurring along the banks of the Red River. But at this particular point which is almost opposite the point where the As siniboine River empties into the Red River, it would probably be found upon expert study and examination that this junction of the waters of two streams may be much more responsible for erosion and damage than the fluctuations in the water levels of the Red River due to the St.

Andrews Dam. · The point I'm trying to bring out is that a resolution such as this requesting a certain work or project should be carried on by the Federal Government without being backed up by a proper brief prepared after examination of the matter in question by technical experts , is not reasonable.

Such a brief would show, if such a brief were prepared, would show pos sibly on a percentage basis responsibility insofar as is possible of human elements such as works of the Federal-Provincial-M unicipal Governments or private parties which have contributed to the damaging results, which are occurring at this particular point , compared to the various actions of nature which have also contributed to the trouble.

Also whether a retaining wall as suggested would be the best method of correcting the trouble, taking into consideration the fact of the pos sibility of public damage which might occur at other points along the Red or Assiniboine Rivers due to restriction of, and permanently fixing the boundaries of the water course. A resolution such as this if backed up by a full brief as aforementioned, enumerating the facts of the situation, which could or mi ght establish the liability of the Federal Govern ment, would have some weight and would be a proper one to receive the support of this Legis lature.

But I am not prepared to support this rather arbitrary demand on the Federal Govern ment for a specific work not knowing whether this is a proper solution for the trouble, or who, or what is directly responsible for the condition which exists at this point . I will, therefore, vote against this resolution which I consider in its present form to be innocuous and futile. Thank you . lVIR. E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Mr .

Speaker, a good deal of what the Honourable Member for Swan River has .said could be true and I would agree with him, but for him to get up and say that he does not agree with this resolution and therefore is not going to support it I don't believe is enough at this point , because the problem which faces the City of St . Boniface is much the same kind of proble'm which faces many people. living along-the Red River, and I think that we are entitled by now, we are entitled to some kind of definite show of intention from that side as to what they propose to do about this problem . Mr.

Speaker, when I spoke about this problem in this Chamber last year, the then Minister of Agriculture said that they were certainly looking into the matter and that they would be in a position to make some definite statements before too long. Well a year has passed and whether we support this resolution as is worded or not is really slightly beside the point that I am trying to make now.

The point I'm trying to makt;l is simply that if the government wishes to defeat this resolution then the least we can expect from them is some definite tangible indication of what they are going to do about this problem, because it is not a slight problem, and to say that the resolu tion is not worded properly or something like that does not help anyone. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question ? MR. DESJARDINS: Shouldn't that be allowed to stand in the name of the Honourable Member for St. Vital? MR. SPEAKER: I beg your pardon? MR.

DESJARDINS: Shouldn't that be allowed to stand under the name of the Honourable the Member for.St. Vital, who had it ? MR. SPEAKER : Order ·stand. Adjourned debate on tire proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Inkster. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia.. Page 1104 March 1st, 1960

:MR. G. W. JOHNSON (Assiniboia) : Mr. Speaker, I relinquish the right of adjourn ment to the Honourable Member for Osborne. :MR. 0. BAIZLEY (Osborne) : Mr . Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Honourable Member from Ass iniboia for adjourning this debate for me. It seems to me that once again the Honourable Member from Inkster has indicated to us that his heart is bigger than his head.

Now I'm sure that this is a quality that all of us in this House admire very much; but I believe that it would be only fair to inform the members of this Assem bly with some of the facts about this particular problem. I think this is one time when the Honour able Member from Inkster has watered down his request about the needs for assistance for exceptional children, I find that th�re are roughly 18 ,0 00 exceptional children in the Province of Manitoba. I see he points out that in a limited category that there are about 3500 in this particular field.

The honourable member has pointed out that it is regrettable circumstances that force people with blind children to send these youngsters to Brantford. I think we all agree that it is unfortunate that this is so; at the same time we have to be practical. I think there are twenty youngsters in the province who have all their expenses and tuition paid for them· at the institution in Br antford by the government. (Interjection) . I believe there are about 60 who are not going to school - that's in round figures. You come to the problem of the deaf child. There is a day school here in Winnipeg for deaf children.

Now chilctren from Roblin and Churchill and Flin Flan if there was a residential school here would be required to be away from their home just as long as they are at the present time going to Saskatoon. We come to the retarded child, and I would say this to the honourable member that it is just in the past few years with the advent of the Society for Retarded .Children and the interest that the Kinsmen Club of Winnipeg took in the possibilities of training and educating retarded children, that it has definitely proven that there is a place in the education field for this work .

But in view of the large numbers of exceptional children in. this province and the contribution that might be made, I would suggest an amendment to the resolution to the effect that all the words after the word "province" in the first line thereof be struck out and the following substituted therefor: "Whereas the deaf and blind children of this province are provided with educational facilities at the expense of the Province of Manitoba; and

whereas the education of blind children is provided in institutions outside the Province of Manitoba; and

whereas the full cost of education, maintenance and transportation of blind children is paid by the Province of Manitoba; and

whereas the education of deaf children is provided both within Manitoba and in institutions outside of Manitoba; and

whereas the full cost of education, maintenance and transportation of deaf children who are educated in institutions outside the Province of Manitoba is paid by the Province of Manitoba; and

whereas the Manitoba Royal Commissi on on Education made a study of the problems associated with the education of exceptional children and handicapped children and made certain recommendations, therefore

be it resolved that this House request the Jlfrlnister of Education to take under consideration the recommenda tions made by the Royal Commission on Education ili

Chapter 18 of its report. I would move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia. Mr. Speaker presented the motion. :MR. PAULLEY: On a point of order. May I suggest .Mr.

Speaker, that you consider that resolution or the amendment very very closely because as I hear the wording of it it appears to me that basically it's a negation of the resolution as proposed by the Honourable Member for Inkster, and I respectfully suggest that you take it under advisement because if that is the case then the purpose behind the resolution e<)uld be achieved by negating the resolution as it stands under the name of the Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. SPEAKER: I might say that I'm prepared to take a second look at it. Ad journed debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Ste.

Rose . The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie . :MR. J. A. CHRISTIANSON (Portage la Prairie): Mr . Speaker, I would beg the indul gence of the House to have this matter stand. MR. SPEAKER: Order stand. Adjourned debate on the second reading of Bill No . 28 . The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr . Speaker, the House will be quite interested I think in the fact that these 14 Bills I believe they are in number, are coming forward in the way that they are March 1st, 1960 Page 1105

(Mr. Camp bell, cont' d) ..... and also in the fact that some few of us I believe - and I don't know how many -- are inclined to debate them from the point of view of public information because ordinarily I think, it is correct to say that Bills of Incorporation that come before the House, after they have been considered by the Private Bills Committee, get comparatively little scrutiny in the House, and especially in a case of this kind where there if; an organiza tion already establiehed.

I think -- I could say so far as I am concerned as well that the reasons that the Honourable Member for Morris gave as the reasons for incorporation are in my opinion quite valid and logical. Consequently the question would naturally arise, I suppose, why then is there the amount of interest that some of us feel with regard to these bills? I propose to take a few minutes -- I hope , Mr. Speaker, that I will be able to finish before 5:30, but if I cannot I don't ask any consideration from the House as far as the adjournment time is concerned because it would not disturb my argument to have it continue later.

Perhaps however, the time available will be sufficient before 5: 30. Because I propose to deal somewhat with the history of the question of the Hutterite Colonies as I have come to know it rather inti mately in the last 15 or 20 or even 25 or more years, for it has been quite frequently before the House.

First as I recall it away back in 1930 or 31 when the original incorporations or organizations were discussed here; then later when some further incorporations came before the House; and then still later -- and these are the questions that I think are the most impor _taht at this time -- still later when many citizens of the Province of Manitoba came before the Legislative Assembly proposing that because of the form of community organization that the Hutterites carried on, that their further expansion should be, in some way, curtailed or con fined to certain areas. And I would like to say once again, Mr.

Speak er, as I have in the past that from my ac quaintance with the people who have taken that position, and some of them have taken it quite strongly, that I have never been able to see in their representations or in the feeling; that they had on this matter, any hint whatever-that was directed toward intolerance of the religious views or principles or practices of the Hutterites themselves. The question of religion, and I am sure I speak for these people in that regard, the question of religion was never challenged.

In fact I think all of them would be prepared to say that they think that these folk are a God fearing people who stick closely to their religious principles and practice them according to their own likes . And they I'm sure have the utmost, not only tolerance for, but respect for the religious views that are held.

But those people have had -- and this was rather intimated in the brief remarks of the Honourable Member for Brandon a few days ago when second read ing was moved -- those people have had the feeling that because the communal, and I use the word communal I think in its correct sense of living in a very close community and dealing directly on a communal basis, that because of that life, the economic life that they lead that their growth in a particular area is stifling to certain economic interests of people who are their neighbours .

And so the people so far as I was ever made aware were simply asking that consideration be given by the Legislative Assembly to curtailing the expansion by one means or another, and I'll come to that a little bit later on; The Honourable Member for Brandon the other day raised the question of taxation and wonder;d if because the main principles on which this incorporation is established are religious principles, of whether there would be a question of exemption from taxation involved. My un derstanding is that that question does not arise.

Several of these communities have already been incorporated and I think that they are, even though unincorporated, my understanding is that they are taxed as a corporation . However that's a question that can be"discussed more fully at the com mittee stage. -- (Interjection) -- Yes, certainly. 1\IIR. R. 0. LISSAMAN (Brandon): One question has occurred to me since . How could they ever become responsible for succession duties because the shares -- there are no shares that would have any values -- so they would never ever pay succession duties regardless·of how wealthy the com munity got.

Th�.t•s my own opinion, I wonder if you might answer me that. MR. CAMPBELL: I must say, Mr. Speaker, that I am not in the position to answer that question and it's one that I think could quite properly be raised at the committee stage and it's a perfectly logical one, I believe. The one I was referring to was income or corporation in come taxes and my understanding is that they are taxed as corporations in that regard. - Th�n the Honourable Member for Brandon raised a point that I think is also valid and Page 1106 March 1st, 1960

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.) .•• that is the exclusion of women from any rights in the government -of their community. Now I don't suppose that that is a strict tenet of their religion, quite frankly I don't know just why that particular principle is applied but I notice that in all the in corporations going away back to the year 1931 and perhaps even prior to that time, that the same provision is made .

I think that as far as we are concerned in the House these times that perhaps with the bills that we have before us with regard to discrimination, non-disc rim ination against anyone that perhaps that is something that at least should be looked at these times, but there again I would say that if they really do, if they really do consider this as a tenet of their- religion then I think it' s placed in a different category.

But these people who have been protesting against the expansion of the Hutterite communities or colonies or cor porations have I think invariably been prepared to give them the full credit for their religious beliefs and do not challenge them , but they have felt that because their communal system of living and their economic attitude is so different from the com munities in which they establish themselves that their further expansion in small areas is extremely detrimental to a particu lar area.

And so that is why the question of limiting the expansion came before this House and that is what I would like to briefly review. I do not maintain that I have in my short re searches covered all the matters that have taken place, and anyone who wants to check fur ther on the information that I give, I'll try and give them the statutes or the journals where they can follow it up more fully.

The first resolution to come before the House; not the first incorporation of these col onies or corporations, but the first resolution to come before the House from the folks that I speak of that were wanting the Legislative Assembly to restrict the further expansion of the Hutterite colonies, was the outgrowth as I recall it of some public meetings, several of them , that were held out in the Oakville Elie and Portage la Prairie district. At one or two of those meetings some of the Members of the House were present -- quite a few of us having been in vited.

And following those meetings at which resolutions were passed asking the Government of Manitoba to put in some sort of restrictive iegislation, a committee was set up to study the question and in case you might think that there was any degree of intolerance in the member ship of the committee I'd like to name them . They were Mr. Dryden, Mr. Greenlay, Mr. McLenaghen, Mr. Morton, Mr. Churchill, Mr. Hansford, Mr. Laurie, Mr. MacDowell, Mr. Olive, Mr. Renouf, Mr. Turner and myself -- a 12 man commi ttee I believe if those are counted up.

And while I'm not trying to give the full story of the reference to the com mittee this I think is a fair paraphrase: -- ''to obtain information regarding colonies or soc ieties of Hutterites and to report and make recommendations to the House ." When that resol ution came before the House, my remembrance is, although I wouldn't be certain of this, it was moved by Mr. Renouf, at least when it came before the House the debate was a fairly lengthy one -- 11 members spoke and it may be interesting to the members to recall that only four of the members who were in the House at that time , Mr.

Speaker, are still here .- yourself, the Honourable Member for Carillon, the Honourable Member for Inkster and my self. I was the only one of the present members to be on the committee but I know that sev eral of you kept quite close -- all of you I think kept quite close to its work. It may be inter esting to note also that of the four who are still here two of us were on each side because there was a division -- it was by no means unanimous that such a committee should be set up -- and we didn't all speak I believe but when the vote came two of us were on each side . think I'd like to record the fact, Mr.

Speaker, that you and I were together -- no doubt on the right side . I won •t say which side -- we were together. The other two were together . There were several meetings held of that committee and. Mr. Laurie was made Cha ir man and the committee reported on February-- I should have said if anyone wants to trace the history of this committee that that first one was in 1947 . It reported at the 1948 sessi on and the report is 35 pages long . It's 28 or 29 pages I think of report proper and seven or eight pages listing the submissions that were made and places of meetings and things of that kind.

And one of the things that was recommended at that time was that Sections 8, 12 and 13 of the Act of Incorporation of that time should be repealed. Those were the sections of the Act of .those days that prevented a member of a colony from having any personal property or from gaining any equity of the community. And it

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-2-31
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 2nd hansardpdf 31.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f62e305ebc0059c0469990782728aaac97a19169

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