Manitoba Hansard — 13 March 1990 (Sitting 143, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-143

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, March 13, 1990. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS READIN G AND RECEIVIN G PETITIO NS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition, and it conforms with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the Rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Mr. Clerk (William Remnant) : To the Legislative Assembly of the Province of Manitoba, the petition of the undersigned residents of the Province of Manitoba humbly sheweth:

WHEREAS the residents of Transcona are firmly opposed to the establishment of "adults only" video stores and stor es th at deal exclusiv ely with pornographic material in their community; and, WHER EAS said residents are concerned that the ready access to pornographic materials contributes to the degeneration of the moral values and quality of family life that the community attempts to promote; and WHE RE AS the residents firmly belie ve th at the es tabl ishme nt of stor es de aling excl usiv ely with pornographic materials would be dis ruptive to the existing goodwill of busin ess dealings in Transcona; THAT this Legislature Assembly urge the province of Manitoba to consider the use of all avai lable means to oppose and restrict the establishment of adult only video stores and all stores that deal exclusively with pornographic material.

AND as in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray. PRESE NTIN G RE PORTS BY STANDIN G AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mr. Helmut Pankratz (Chairman of Committees): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Seventh Report of the Committee on Law Amendments. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments presents the following as their Seventh Report. Your committee met on Wednesd ay, March 7, 1990, at 8 p.m. and on Monda y, March 12 , 1990, at 10 a.m. in Room 254 of the Legisla tive Building to consider Bills referred.

Your committee received representation on Bill No. 74, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (7); Loi no 7 modifiant le Code de la route, as follows: Written Submission: Mr. Chris Lorenc - Private Citizen Your committee has considered: Bill No. 73 - The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (6); Loi no 6 modifiant le Code de la route; and has agreed to report the same without amendment. Your committee has also considered: Bill No. 74 - The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (7); Loi no 7 modifiant le Code de la route; and has ag reed to report the same with the following amendments: MOTION: THAT subs ection 6(7), as proposed in

section 4 of the Bill, be amended by striking out "furnished by the registrar" in clause (

a) and substituting "required under this Act". MOTION: THAT clause 31(3 )(b), as proposed in

section 7 of the Bill, be struck out and the following substituted: "(

b) in the thr ee month period immediately preceding the application, the applicant held a valid driver's licence issued by a competent authority in a province or territory of Canada, and the authority confirms that the applicant is eligible to apply for and hold a driver's licence and to operate a motor vehicle in that province or territ ory." MOTION: THAT the following be added after

section 11: "Clause 122(1)(

q) added 11 .1 That subsection 12 2(1) be amended by adding the following after clause (p): (

q) on a highway from 11 o'clock in the evening of one day until six o'clock in the morning of the following day, where stopping during that period is prohi bited by by-law of the appropriate traffic authority and subsection 90(5) does not apply to such a by-l aw." MOTION: THAT

section 12 be struck out and the following be substituted: "Section 126 repealed and replaced 12 Sec tion 12 6 is repealed and the following is substituted: Manner of hand signal 12 6 When a driv er of a left-hand drive vehicle or an operator of a bicycle, mobility vehicle or 5878

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 moped gives a signal by hand and arm, the driver or operator shall do so from the left side and shall sign ify (

a) a left turn, by ext ending the left hand and arm of the driver or operator horizontally from the vehicle; (

b) a right turn, (

i) by ext ending the left hand and arm of the driver or operator out and upward from the vehicle, or (ii) by extend ing the right hand and arm of the driver or operator horizontally; and (

c) a stop or decrease in speed, by extend ing the left hand and arm of the driver or operator out and downward from the vehicle. MOTION: THAT su bsection 147(2), as set out in proposed sect ion 16 of the Bill, be amended in the English version only by adding "or her" after "his". MOTION: THAT clause 319(1)(www), as proposed in subsection 45(2) of the Bill, be amended by adqing "for" before "light reflect ion". MOTION: THAT Legislative Counsel be autho rized to change all sect ion numbers and internal references necessary to carry out the amendments adopted by this committee.

All of which is respectfu lly su bmitted. Mr. Pankratz: I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik), that the report of the committee be received . MOTION presented and carried. Mr. Edward Helwer (Chairman of Committees): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Third Report of the Committee on Municipal Affairs. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Your Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs presents the following as their Third Report.

Your committee met on Tuesday , March 6, 1990, at 8 p.m. in Room 254, and Monda y, March 12, 1990, at 10 a.m., in Room 255 of the Legislative Building, to consider Bills referred. Your committee heard representations on Bills as follows: Bill No. 61 - The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant la

Loi sur la Ville de Winnipeg *

(1335) Mr. Greg Selinger - Priv ate Citizen Bill No. 62 - The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act (3); Loi no 3 modifiant la

Loi sur la Ville de Winnipeg Mr. Greg Selinger - Private Citizen Mr. David King - Priv ate Citizen Mr. Trevor Thomas - City of Winnipeg Law Department Your committee has considered: Bill No. 61 - The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant la

Loi sur la Ville de Winnipeg; and has agreed to report the same with the following amendments: MOTION: THAT the Bill be amended by adding the following after sect ion 2: "Subsection 41(2) amended 2.1(1) Subsection 41(2) of the City of Winnipeg Act, as enacted under The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act, S.M. 1989-90,

chapter 8, is amended by striking out "de termine", and su bstituting "make rul es, not inconsistent with this Act, dete rmining the procedures under which the residents' advisory group shall operate, including". Subsection 41(6) amended 2.1(2) Subsection 41(6) of The City of Winnipeg Act is repealed and the following is substituted: Role of R.A.G. 41(6) A residents' advisory group shall (

a) advis e and assist the members of the commun it y commit tee for which it is established; and (

b) be entitled to notice of, and the right to participate in, the meetings of the community committee. Subsection 41(8) added 2.1(3)

Section 41 of The City of Winnipeg Act is amended by adding the following after su bsection (7): Financial support for R.A.G. 41(8) Where council passes a by-law under subsection (7), council shall provide funds to each residents' advisory group to enable it to operate effectively." MOTION: THAT subsection 44(1), as proposed in

section 3 of the Bill, be struck out and the following substituted: "Council may employ and set terms 44(1) The city may employ such officers and employees as it considers necessary in the exercise of its powers and duties, and council shall by resolution, by-law, col lective agreement or other agreement fix the remuneration and other benefits for employees, their hours of work and other conditions of employment, 5879

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 and the manner of their appointment, promotion, suspension and dismissal." MOTION: THAT clause 51( 1Xc), as proposed in

section 3 of the Bill, be amended by st riking out "charge" and substituting "charged". MOTION: THAT

section 4 of the Bill be amended by striking out "Sect ions 74 to 79 are repealed" and substituting "Sections 7 4 to 79, except sections 75. 1 to 75.9 (ombudsman) and sect ion 78. 1 (pensions), are repealed". MOTION: THAT subsection 75(21) , as set out in proposed

section 4, be amended (

a) by striking out "and" in clause (e); (

b) by adding "and" after the semicolon in clause (f); (

c) by adding the following after clause (f): "(

g) any other board, commission, corporation or other body, whether incorporated or unincorporated, established by council or under this Act;" MOTION: THAT

section 78, as proposed in

section 4 of the Bill, be amended by striking out "su bsection (1) " and substituting "section 77''. MOTION: THAT the Bill be amended by adding the following after sect ion 4: "Re-numbering of provisions 4. 1 The following provisions are re-numbered: (

a) sect ions 75. 1 to 75.9 (ombudsman) are re numbered as sect ions 65 to 73; (

b) section 78. 1 (pensions) is re-numbered as

section 79; (

c) section 80. 1 (records) is re-numbered as

section 80." MOTION: THAT the amendments to su bsection 456(4) of the Act, as proposed in clause 13(

b) of the Bill, be amended by st riking out "I n conduc ting a hea ring unde r subsection (3), council or a committee appointed or designated under subsection (1) has" and substituting "I n conducting a hearing under subsection (3), the committee appointed under subsection (1) has". MOTION: THAT the Bill be amended by adding the following after

section 23: "Transitional re

section 48 & subsection 49(4) 23. 1 Notwithstanding the repeal of

section 48 and subsection 49(4) under

section 3 of this Act, those provisions remain in force until a proclamation is issued under sect ion 16(4) of Bill 32, The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act." MOTION: THAT subsection 24(1) of the Bill be struck out and the following substituted: "Coming into force 24(1) Subject to subsections (2), this Act comes into force on the day it receives royal ass ent." MOTION: THAT sect ion 24 of the Bill be amended (

a) by adding "and (3)" and "Su bject to subsections (2)" ; (

b) by adding the following after subsection (2): "Procla mation 24(3)

Section 2. 1 comes into force on the day that

section 41 is proclaimed under

section 15.1 of The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act, S.M. 19 89-90,

chapter 8." MOTION: THAT Legisla tive Counsel be author ized to change all

section numbers and internal references necessary to carry out the amendments adopted by this committee. Your committee has also considered: Bill No. 62 - The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act (3); Loi no 3 modifiant la

Loi sur la Ville de Winnipeg; and has agreed to report the same with the following amendments: MOTION: THAT the following be added after

section 5: "Subsection 212(1) rep. and sub. 5.1 Subsection 21 2( 1) is struck out and the following is substituted: 21 2(1) Notwithstanding sections 772 to 777 of The Mu nicipal Act, council may by by-law prescribe the rate of penalties to be added to taxes remaining due and unpaid. " MOTION: THAT the Bill be amended by adding the following after

section 6: "Subsection 364(5) added 6. 1 The following is added after subsection 346(4): Special assessments under old agreement 346(5) Notwithstanding any other provision of this Part, where before Janu ary 1, 1972 an area 5880

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 municipality entered into an agreement with owners, or persons entitled to be owners, of land within an area municipality that provided for the construction of a local improvement, and for a manner of levying special assessments in respect of the local improvement that was different than the manner required under this Part, but which would have have valid if The City of Winnipeg Act, S.M. 19 71,

chapter 105, had not been enacted, the city may, to the extent necessary to comply with the agreement, levy special assessm ents, including int erest at a rate not exceeding the rate levied by the city in respect of other local improvements during the year, for the local improvement in the manner provided by the agreement; and the provisions of this Part that are not inconsistent with the provisions of the agreement apply , with such modifications as the circumstances require; and the city is deemed to have had this power from the date of the agreement." MOTION: THAT Bill 62 be amended by adding the following after

section 34: "Section 624.1 is added 34. 1 The following is added after

section 624: Buildings spanning water courses 624. 1(1) Notwithstanding any provision of this Act or The Rivers and Streams Act or any by law, resolution or regulation, no permit shall be issued by or on behalf of the city or council under this Act or as an authority under The Rivers and Streams Act for the construction or placement in the city of a building or structure which would span a water course, other than a highway, a util ity or a building or structure exempted from this

section by regulation. Regulations by l.G. in C. 624.1(2) The Lieutenant Governor in Council may make reg ula tions ex empting build ings and structures or classes of buildings or structures from subs ection (1 ). Retroactive effect 624.1(3) Where, before the corning into force of this

section a permit is issued and is subsisting for the construction of a building or structure which spans a water cou rse, othe r than a hig hway, a util it y or building or structu re exempted by regulation from su bsection (1) the permit is deemed to be cancelled and compensation shall be paid to the holder of the permit according to law." MOTION: THAT

section 44 of the Bill be amended (

a) in the proposed

section 686, by adding "b ut subje ct to sect ions 687 and 688," after "No twithstanding the provisions of this or any other Act,"; (

b) by adding the following after the proposed

section 686: "Winnipeg development plan continued 687 Notwithstanding the repeal of provisions in this Act relating to the additional zone, the Winnipeg development plan, as defined in

Part 20, is deemed to be a development plan adopted under The Planning Act in any part of a municipality that was in the additional zone, and is subject to the provisions of that Act. Development permissions 688 Where, before the repeal of provisions in this Act relating to the additional zone, council gr ants under sect ion 637 a dev elopment permission that is subject to conditions, the development permission is deemed to be a conditional approval under subs ection 64(2) of The Planning Act, and is su bject to the provisions of that Act." MOTION: THAT

section 45 be struck out and the following substituted: "Coming into force 45(1) Subject to subsection (2), this Act comes into force on a day fixed by proclamation. Retroactive provision 45(2)

Section 6.1 is retroactive and is deemed to have come into force on December 22, 19 89." MOTION: THAT the motion to amend

section 45 be amended (

a) in subsection ( 1), by deleting "subsection (2)" and substituting "subsections (2) and (3)"; and 5881 (

b) by adding the following after su bsection (2): "Royal 45(3) Sections 5. 1 and 34. come into force on the day this Act receives royal assent." MOTION: THAT Legislative Counsel be auth orized to change all sect ion numbers and internal references necessary to carry out the amendments adopted by this committee. All of which is respectfully subm itted. Mr. Helwer: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik), that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried . TABLING OF REPORTS Hem. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be able to

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 table the 1988-89 Annual Report for the Department of Education and Training. Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker , I am pleased to table the Seventeenth Annual Report ending March 31 , 1989 for Legal Aid Manitoba. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions , may I direct the attention of Honourable Members to the gallery where we have from the Riverside School, fifteen Grades 8 and 9 students. They are under the direction of Mr. Tom Wiebe . This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Roch).

On behalf of all Honourable Members , I welcome you here this afternoon . ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Decentralization Teacher Certification Branch Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker , in letters sent to Government employees, the rationale given for decentralization was, and I quote, decisions were accepted on the basis that it was logical to move closer to the client group to be served.

Can the Government explain how the client group, in this case teachers, will be better served by the department of teacher certification, when 35 of them live in the community of Russell, Manitoba , and 9, 100 of them live in and around the City of Winnipeg? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker , it is obvious to see that the Liberals do not believe in serving the communities outside of this city.

In today's age of technology and science and today's age of instant communication around the world, there is no reason why services which are provided by means of telecommunication, by means of computer, by means of telephone and fax, cannot , be provided anywhere within this beautiful Province of Manitoba . Our objective is to try to ensure that communities outside the City of Winnipeg have the availability to serve Manitobans regardless of where they are . Mrs.

Carstairs: I am glad the Minister raised the question of technology , because with respect to teacher certification, many teachers who go to the certification office are immigrants . They are asked at that moment to present in person their original documents . They are not allowed to give teacher records and certification, fax documents or in fact xeroxed docume nts. Can the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) tell the Hous e if he is now prepared to change the rules , or if all of these teachers are now going to be asked to visit his constituency? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker , I am very proud of my constituency and I would welcome anyone from the 5882 Province of Manitoba to visit the beautiful area in the western side of this province . Let me assure the Leade r of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) that where there is a need to accommodate those individuals , especially the immigrants who perhaps need to be accommodated, every effort will be made by the Department of Education and Training to ensure that we are flexible and that we are capable of addressing the needs as they arise . *

(1340) Hiring Policy Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker , can the Min ister of Education (Mr. Derkach) tell this House what search has been conducted in his constituency for clerical employees to staff this transferred position , in that all of the present employees , because of either family obligations or marital status , have indicated they cannot accept a transfer? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Well, Mr.

Speaker, I can assure the House that at this present time there is nothing official as to which people are going to be prepared to move and which ones are not. I might indicate to the Member opposite that indeed there are very well qualified people outside the City of Winnipeg who would welcome the opportunity for employment in some of the communities where there is perhaps a lack of available employment opportunities . That is the whole thrust , to ensure that there is equal access of opportunity right across this province. Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education (Mr.

Derkach) seems to understand that decentralization can indeed occur through the use of staff vacancies and through attrition, and we congratulate the Minister . We hope he will teach that lesson to his Premier. Management Notification Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the Government yesterday told the House that management was involved in the decision-making process.

Can the Minister of Education explain why the director of teacher certification learned about the move of his own job and that of all of his staff only five minutes before the announcement to staff, and his immediate superior learned of it only one week before? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I have to advise the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) that at the present time we have

an act ing director of the Administration and Finance Branch . It is up to my Deputy Minister and the Assistant Deputy Ministers to advise the staff as to decentralization. That was done in accordance with the procedure that was set out. Certainly nothing was hidden from staff . As soon as we were able to , everyone was notified so that the information would be made available to everybody as soon as possible at the same time.

Tuesday, March 13 , 1990 Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, so obviously in this Government management is only consider ed at the deputy and ministerial level. Mr. Speaker, I have a further question to the Minister of Edu cat ion (Mr . Derka ch). Can the Min ister of Education, or any other Government Member, explain why an individual hired in August to be a library consultant, hired away from the City of Winnipeg, was not !old at the time that her position was subject lo be transferred , has now been transferred , if this Go vern ment ha d any long -term progra m for decentralization? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, believe if an individual, any individual, takes a position with Government, it does not guarantee that individual will be working in a particular place for his or her life. Let me indicate very clearly that in every case if there was knowledge that particular position was going to be transferred at that time, that individual would have been told or asked whether or not he or she would be prepared to move. We did this as a matter of practice. I might also indicate that in every case we cannot hold back hiring of people because a particular division may be trans ferred at some point in time.

Positions have to be filled when they become vacant or as soon as possible, because I know that the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) would be' criticizing us for not filling positions if in fact tho se positions would be transferred. Decentralization Wrongful Dismissal Analysis Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (leader of the Opposition): The corporations and most Governments make it a pol icy to plan for the long term and allo w their employees to know what those long-term plans are. Can the Attorney General (Mr.

Mccrae) tell this House what analysis has been done by his department with regard to the number of wrongful dismissal suits that will be launched against this Government because of transfers of major lifestyle, which is now considered to be the basis for wrongful dismissal? Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and AUomey General): Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member's question is quite hypothetical.

The question of decisions being made has been addressed by the task force, by the people involved with putting the package, the program for decentralization considerations have been taken account of. can the Honourable Member that she would do Manit obans a favour she would try to be the Leader of !he Opposition for all Manit obans. *

(1345) Private Schools Withdrawal Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness). Mr. Speaker, last week the Government refused to withdraw the cap on Medicare and we are pleased on the one hand in terms of the fiscal situation the Government has withdrawn the cap in the prop osed doctors' dispute. The Minister of Finance indicated that they will be reviewing all budgetary items in terms of the lack of funds in the Province of Manitoba and that they will be reviewing many programs and wHchni"''·"'r"' many funds for many programs in the Province Manitoba.

My question to the Minister is: Will he now reverse the position of the provincial Government and now withdraw the funding proposed by the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) for the priv ate schools the Province of Manitoba and not only prevent a costly exercise, but the Americanization of our school sys tem? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of !Education and Tr aining): Mr. Speaker, I can indicate to the Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) that in fact one of the major portions of the announcement on independent schools was the accountabilit y issue.

The accountabilit y issue has been before this province for some time. It did not just come before the province in the last year and a half. For the first time in the history of this province, independent schools will be accountable for the monies that they receive from the provincial Gover nment. Additiona lly, for the first time in the history of this province, independent schools will be obli gated to offer a program that is the same that is offered in our public school system. Additiona lly, they will have to comply with the administrativ e handbook that all public schools have to comply with.

The se are elements of the accountability issue that are very important to us as Manitobans, meanwhile providing choices for families and for parents in this province to send their children to the school that they see best fits their needs. Mr. Doer: Yesterday the Min ister of Finance (Mr. Manness) could not give us any financial numbers on the costs of this proposal. My question was a question dealing with the 80 percent funding and my question again is to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness).

Last ev ening the school trustees and school teachers and school superintendents of this province said that the potential impact on the financial resources avai lable to education in Manitoba would be horrendous with the proposed changes from the Government. Mr. Speaker, the Doer) was not committee him was the trus tees or the teachers society who quoted a on what it might cost the province. It was his critic of Education who blurted out a of some $100 miliion lo the cost of this province. That figure is completely- 5883

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 it is horrendous-and that cost to this province over the eight-year period will be less than half of that. So indeed I would suggest that the Leader of the New Democratic Party should ask his critic of Education to do his research more accurately so that he can present more accurate facts to this House . Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Honourable Member for Concordia. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker , we already have it up to $50 million and will keep examining the Minister of Education . My question to the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) is, can this province afford an additional $50 million under the proposed elite school system of the province , given the fact that school trustees in this province have said, and I quote , this will be horrendous? Will the Minister of Finance now do what he did with doctors and withdraw the money for the Americanization of our school system? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, let it be known that not only did the New Democrats oppose choice for Manitobans , they also ignored accountability questions . We are not going to do that. We faced the issue of funding to independent schools head-on .

We have reached an agreement whereby over the next eight years we will extend funding to independent schools to a level of 80 percent of what public schools are getting, but more importantly we have addressed the whole issue of accountability to the province so that indeed independent schools will have to operate under the same guidelines , the same umbrella or criteria that all public schools do in this province. I am proud of that particular initiative. •

(1350) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker , when Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan want to justify one system for the rich and one system for the rest of us, they use the example , oh, we are just providing choices . That is the example they use, the same kind of right-wing Conservative .,, age nda that this Government has. My question to the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) is, why does he not take control of other Ministers in his Cabinet , withdraw the $50 million which we believe will grow to $100 million with a change in the enrollment and save the money for the taxpayers and put it back into the public school system where it belongs rather tha n squeezing every part of the system and Government to provide money for elite schools? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker , I think the Leader of the Opposit ion (Mr. Doer) has repeated his question three times now. Perhaps he should try a new question soon . Mr.

Speaker , I have to tell him again that by providing additional funding to independent schools does not make it an elitist system . An elitist system is one where only the rich can afford it because there is no assistance given to it. By providing assistanc e ordinary Manitobans can access those independent schools now. Mr. Speaker, I have to indicate that 85 percent of children attending independent schools in this p1 ovince are attending those schools because of religious or ethnic reasons . I think the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer) should perhaps take that under consideration as well.

Canada-Manitoba Tourism Agreement Forks Renewal Corp. Funding Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): My question is to the Prem ier (Mr. Filmon). Mr. Speaker, just over two weeks from now the Canada-Manitoba Tourism Agreement will expire . There have been various figures used about how much money will be directed towards The Forks thro ugh that agreement. Some say that $2.8 million will be used to build the boat basin. Others say that $4.8 million will be used to construct a tourist centre at The Forks .

Could the Premier please tell the House, now that we are within two weeks of the expiry of the agreement, how much money will be directed towards The Forks ? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Tourism (Mr. Ernst). Forks Renewal Corporation New Development Moratorium Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): I have a supplementary question to the Min ister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme). Mr. Speaker , unfortunately there has been an undermining of the confidence in the mandate of The Forks Renewal Corporation .

This has happened in large part because of insufficient public consultation. As a result there is not the kind of support for projects being announced by The Forks Renewal Corporation that would give those of us who are watching it a degree of comfort. We in the Liberal Party about two months ago called on a moratorium of all new developments at The Forks pending another round of consultation. The Planning Committee at Winnipeg City Hall yesterday said very much the same thing. My question to the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme) is, does he now support a moratorium of any development at The Forks? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker , first of all, as I explained to the critic during the Estimate procedures, my people are instructed to take their time with The Forks project. There has been no drastic development of The Forks at this present time. For the Member to get up and say no consultation, maybe I would like to review for him that in the year 1989 The Forks had 145 meetings with different individuals . In the short period of January they had 19 meetings.

For him to get up and mention that there is no consultation with The Forks peop le and with the public is completely irresponsible. 5884

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 Accountability Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I think it was particularly signi ficant yesterda y that Members of The Forks Renewal Corporation met with the Planning Committee of City Council. We, the legislators of the Province of Manitoba, had no such opportu nity. Will the Minister of Urban Affairs request that the chief executive officer and staff of The Forks Renewal Corporation appear in front of a legisl ative committee so that the MLAs in this Chamber can ask the questions that city councillors have a right to ask, but we do not? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, unfortuna tely we have a different form of Government in this Legislature. The Member is quite aware that I instructed the chief executive officer to invite him and his caucus and the other caucus to come forward and give the briefing. First of all, we mentioned that the City of Winnipeg at this time wants to have more consultation. The boat basin alone, Mr. Speaker, was approved on December 4 by the Downtown Design Board. On Janua ry 12, the Manitoba Environment Control Service approved that.

Then on Janua ry 22, the Riv erbank Ma nagement Committee, Rivers and Streams, City of Winnipeg approved that particular project. How much more do they want to receive information when it comes forward from The Forks? *

(1355) Pembina River Diversion Federal EARP Request Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, we in this province are only too aware of how the Saskatchewan and federal Tories flaunted the Canadian environmental laws with Rafferty -Alameda. Today we have the announcement that another federal court has forced the Alberta Government to submit its Oldman River Project to a federal EARP. Three times now the federal courts have reaffirmed th ose 1975 environmental regulations. Mr. Spea ker, can this Tory Environment Minister (Mr.

Cummings) explain why his Government has not made application for a federal EARP for the diversion of the Pembina River into Pelican Lake? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, one of the things that we have been most cognizant of in this province is to make sure that our process deals with environmental issues in such a way that we can answer the questions that are raised regarding both federal and provincial jurisdiction. (interjection)- Well, ob viously , it amused your Leader. Some Honourable Mem bers: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Speaker, I think the Member for Wolseley (Mr. Tayl or) does the Clean Environment Commission no credit when he consistently raises the credibili ty, the quality and the independence of this panel to be able to deal with environmental issues and independent manner in this province. The issues will be brought forward at the hearings. Both sides will be fairly heard. The information will be analyzed, and a decision will flow from that.

Certain ly, not only in the relationship to this project but all projects across the province we have a very good working relationship with federal author ities and attempt , at every turn, to make sure tha t we have correctly answered the questions that are raised. Mr. Taylor: If an environmental project involves federal lands, federal money, is an international waterway or has fisheries implications, by definition, a federal EARP is required. Mr.

Speaker, given that federal lands in the form of an Indian reservation are involved, the federal Government is contributing a third of a million dolla rs, there are fisheries repercussions and the river flows into the Un ited States, why ha s the provincial Government, as proponent of the project, not applied for that federal EARP? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, essentially that is a repeat of the first question. We have made sure tha t - (interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Minister . Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, it certainly is no intent to by-pass that process.

We want to make sure that we have a clear environmental hearing process that answers those sorts of concerns, and that is the direction that we are taking. Mr. Taylor: Given that this Minister has clearly not learned the lessons after the procedural disasters surrounding Rafferty, Repap, the Cha rleswood bridge, The Forks, and now the Pembina River diversion, when will the Gov ernment choose to advance properly through the environmental review channels instead of continuously trying to avoid those channels? Mr.

Cummings: There is a large preponderance of people in this province who say that I do anything but avoid environmental inte rve ntion. Mr. Speaker - (inter jection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, as I said the last time this Member raised this question, all of the projects for which he references are now on hold- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Sp eaker: Or der , pl ease; order, ple ase. The Honourable Minister. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, there will be every effort made to make sure that this is a clean environmental process.

I think the Member is hoping that he can raise the federal boogeyman in order to increase his support from those people down stream. 5885 r

Tuesday, March 13 , 1990 Transport Canada Service Reduction Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, we have recently learned that one of the impacts of the federal budget brought down a few weeks ago, in addition to massive cuts in trans fer payments that will be hurting our province, will be a 19 percent cut in Transport Canada's air services budget in the central region. • (14 00) I bel ieve this could have a devastating impact on safety, on unemployment, on jobs and services in various communities in this province. I ask the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Albert Driedger) for the province whether he has been in contact with the federa l Department of Transport to dete rmine what the impact of these cuts will be? Does he anticip ate the province having to pick up any of these services and costs that are being offloaded by the federal Government? Hon. Albert Driedger (Min ister of Highways and Tr ansportation): Mr. Speaker, we have also become aware of the fact that there could be some pending cuts, but Pete Proulx, Director General of Air Navigation Services, said last night no decision has been made on whether the division will suffer cutbacks.

I know a directive apparently has gone out to regional directors and they have been given up to the end of this month to tr y and propos e ways to reduce duplication of services in their area. I have to indicate I am concerned when I hear these kinds of rumours. We are trying to gather the information at the present time. As soon as we know what effect it will have, if any, then we will take appropriate action. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, the people have been getting their phone call notices on this. There has been confirmation of a 19 percent cut, not a rumour.

Can the Minister confirm that such cuts that will result in the removal of flight services from various communities and air traffic control in communities such as Dauphin, Lynn Lake and Brandon will impact on safety in those communities, will impact on jobs, and will not be toler ated by this Government? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Speaker, when we talk of a 19 percent cutback that is across Canada. It is our understan ding that it could affect Manitoba to the point of $1. 9 million if these things come into effect.

The one thing that we are concerned about and are investigating right now, because we have raised and are going to raise very seriously for the Transport Commission, is the fact that it should not affect safety in the Province of Manitoba. That is our key concern at the present time. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister agree that, when flight services are cut, it does impact on safety as evidenced by the Dryden commission that was inquiring into the crash there?

Will he also immediately seek a meeting with the federal Minister to express his stron gest objections to these cuts that will impact on safety and employment in the small communities in this province? Will he immediately seek that meeting and ask for assurances that these cuts will not take place in this province? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated before, we are trying to find out exactly what information is available. Once we have that information a decision will be made, and if it requires going to see the federal Minister of Transportation we will do that. Ph armacare Deductible Increase Mr.

Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Acting Minister of Health. With the recent annou ncement by the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) that Pharmacare will increase by almost 5 percent, and this Government again has shown lack of concern for our seniors and people who are less fortunate, can the Acting Minister tell this House what action this Government is taking to lessen the impact of this increase on Ph armacare to the seniors and those who are on fixed incomes and those who have chronic conditions? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Tr aining): Mr.

Speaker, I can assure the Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema) that this Government has every intention to pay attention to the needs of our senior citizens in terms of health, in terms of social needs, in terms of all areas. I can assure the Member for Kildonan that the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) will take every precaution to ensure that the seniors in this province will receive the kinds of services that they require and need. Pharmacard System Implementation Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr.

Speaker, can the Minis ter tell us why this Go vernment ha s no t implemented the Pharmacare card, which is a very economical, very sensible and very practical solution? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Tr aining): The Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) has indicated on several occasions the steps that he has taken with regard to the question that the Member poses. Inde ed I will take this question as notice for the Minister and ensure that he gets back to him with the update as to what has been done since he first posed the question. Ophtha lmology Program Implementation Mr.

Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, can the Minister tell us, for the last six years in Manitoba we did not have an ophthalmology program-and the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) and the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) have been unable to make a decision who is finally res ponsible for this program. 5886

March 1990 Can the Minister of Education tell us when he is finally going to establish this program?- because if you start too late it will take at least three years for that program to start, and we have already an ophthalmo logist shortage in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. At least 50 percent of them will retire in thr ee years time. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Tra ining): I can indicate to the Member for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema) that over the last several months we have been in consultation with the Department of Health and the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) with regard to the ophthalmology program in this province. Indeed, as the Member indicates, there is a growing need for ophthalm ologists in this province, and for that reason the Mini ster of Health, along with my department, have been in consulta tion over the last several months to try and address this issue which has been outstanding, not just for the last year or so, but has been outstanding for some time. Progress is being made toward arriving at an approach which is going to be reasonable and which will address the issues that the Member raises. Manufacturing Industry Economic Growth Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East):· I would like to address the question to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) about the decline in Manitoba 's economy. The Statistics Canada figures from the latest survey for the month of February show a very serious decline in the number of manufacturing jobs in this province. As a matter of fact, Ma ni toba has lost 9,000 manufacturing jobs in one year , Mr. Speaker. That is a decline of 14.3 percent. On top of that, there has been an increase in bankru ptcies of manufacturing indus tries.

We had 14 bankru ptcies in 19 88, and this increased to 19 in 1989, with total liabilities increasing by fivefold from $2.6 million to $1 2.9 million. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), can he explain to this Chamber and to the people of Manitoba why we are experiencing this serious decline in manufacturing industries in this province? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I sense that the Member must be reading from some information that must be horribly outdated, maybe even by many years.

My information shows that new capital investments spending in Manitoba is expected to increase 9.2 percent in 1990 to $4.5 billion. Indeed, this past year the growth was in the area of 7.4 percent, stronger than the growth rates projected for provinces to the east of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I think this province has done extremely well in'89 and has postured well for significant capital investment in 1990. Mr. Leonard Evans: We have heard this story before from the Minister of Indus try (Mr. Ernst). Tell that to the 9,000 people who are no longer employed in manufacturing. la bour Reduction Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, the figures sh ow, the statistics show fewer people working in manufacturing today than at any time in the 1980s under the previous NOP administration. As a matter of fact, two years ago in early 1988 there were 4,000 more people working in manufacturing than there are today in Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, my question, with the continued erosion occur ring in our manuf act uring sector, which will continue I am sure because of the free trade deal that this country has entered into with the United States, can the Minister tell us how many more manufacturing jobs will our province lose in the next year? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Again, Mr. Speaker, I question the source of the Member's figu res, because I have capital investment in the manufacturing sector and last year, 1989, there was an increase of 83.8 percent over 1988 within the manufacturing industry .

Obviously , that is going to bear fruit with respect to productivity and new jobs coming in to the future. So, again, Mr. Speaker, I say to the Member opposite, if he has chosen to judge and to read his numbers in a way that is in the most negative, then I say to him he should look at it in reality and he would see that things are well on course for expansion within that sector. Mr. Leonard Evans: The people of Manitoba do not know what expectations of investment intentions are, but they do know when they lose a job. The fact is, we have lost thousands of jobs, 9,000 jobs in one year in this sector.

East-West Packers Ltd. Closure Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, my final question is, East-West Packers has been placed into receivership th rowing 105 people out of work. Is the Minister, is the Government able to do anything to help rescue the East-West Packers plant or do we have to simply accept the fact that Manitoba has lost another 105 jobs in this indus try? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker. certainly the situation of East-West Packers is very unfortunate. It has been known for some time that there was difficulty in the way that plant was being operated.

Some financial difficulties were in place. the Department of Tourism the Department the situation and there really was no ability with to do anyt hing for plant. A lot occurred, but occurred would allow the plant to continue, and the bank has chosen to do what they did. * (14 10) 5887

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 POWA Agreement lynnGold Workers Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Labour (Mrs. Hammond). The program for older worker adjustment came into place in this province some short time ago. It has been sugge sted by members of the Minister's department as well as members of the department in Ottawa that it takes some time to do the study of a workplace before an agreement can be signed and put into place for the workers who fall under this program.

Can the Minister indicate when this study is going to start for the LynnGold workers, given that their UIC is going to run out probably in October or November? When is the study going to be started? How long will it take to complete? Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Minister of labour): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would have to take that question as notice and get back to the Member. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Sp eaker , I find it somewhat distressing that the Minister would have to take notice of that, seeing as she brought it in with high accolades. I would like to ask the Minister to act on that as soon as she can.

Mining Reserve Fund Totals Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, with another question to the Minister, can the Minister tell the House what the present balance for the Mining Reserve Fund is in this province and what inte rest it is earning on an annual basis? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I will take the question as notice, but it seems to me, as I try and pull a number out of memory, the re is somewhere around $9 million or $10 million. The rate of interest that it would be earning would be the market rate in which we have it invested. Mining Reserve Fund lynnGold Workers Mr.

Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, given the answer from the Minister of Finance, again to the Minister of Labour , why has this Government not seen fit to use any of the monies in the Mining Reserve Fund to assist the workers at LynnGold? What is that Reserve Fund for if not to help the workers at LynnGold who are now going to get this settlement which is nowhere near what they should get under the contr act and subtr act from that what UIC will take and what the tax department will take and what this Government will lake- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The question has been put.

The Honourable Minister of Labour. Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, this Government has gone further than any 5888 Government has ever gone in getting money for workers who have been in a bankrup tcy situation like t!·iis. We have gone after seve rance pay and succeeded in getting a settlement that they would never have had before. So on the matter of LynnGold, we naturally would have liked to have had more for the workers, but we have done very well for them. We are still helping them relocate and still helping the town get on its feet. Pembina River Diversion Federal Jurisdiction Mr.

Harry Harapiak (The Pas): Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns). The Cle an Environment Com mission held hearings last Thursday in Ninette and Brandon dealing with the Pelican Lake enhancement project. I attended th e meeting at Brandon and th ere we received information that the project clearly falls under federal responsibility because ther e is federal funding involved, federal Crown lands involved and at the International Boun dary the water flow affected another countr y. As the proponent of this project, would you approach the Minister of Environment (Mr.

Cummings) and ask him to invite your federal colleague and hold clean environment hearings? Clearly it falls under his area of responsibil ity. Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Sp eak er, I have every conf idenc e in the Cl ean Environment Commission's operations in this province and in its integ rity . They will come to the necessary conclusions that will, I am sure, satisfy all interests in this instance. Manitoba Hazardous Waste Corp Mandate Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings).

The Mani toba Hazardous Waste Corpo ration was established to find a site, develop and operate a hazardous waste corporation -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for The Pas has the floor. Mr. Harapiak: Some of your colleagues are under the impression that the only responsibility was to find a site. Is the Minister still committed to the principle that the corporation will develop and operate a Crown corporation? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, despite the fact that that question is somewhat convoluted, I will attempt to put the record straig ht.

Before any construction of a site of any type, be it a transfer station or an organic treatment station or treatment for inorganics, a site has to be found. During that siting process, obviously I think every Member in this Legislature as well as almost everyone in western Ma nitoba is well aware th ere ha ve been some considerable difficulties in achieving the welcome mat from communities where they have asked to have an opportunity to look at siting process.

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 If the Memb er is asking, ha s the commitm ent somehow changed in terms of this province dealing with its hazardous waste, that commitment has not changed. The fact is that the Hazardous Waste Corp is going to have to develop a system for a transfer site, as a matter of fact, before they may be able to develop a treatment plant. To that extent our commitment is certainly not lessened. Privatization Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): Mr.

Speaker, to the same Minister, with the appointment of Don Vernon, there are many who are concerned that the Minister will follow his privatization path that he started with ACRE's consulting. What comfort can the Minister give the employees of the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Corporation that this will remain a Crown corp ora tion and will not be privatized the way he privatized the handling of the pesticides in this province? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Sp eaker , I take considerable umbr age at the reference- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Cummings: Well, Mr.

Speaker, maybe I should say I am disappointed, upset, forlorn. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Minister of Environment. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I am truly disappointed by the Member for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak), aided and abetted by the Liberals to his right, who will try to put on the record that ACRE is somehow an affront to the Hazardous Waste Corporation. An Honourable Member: It is. Mr. Cummings: Well, now we have a confirmation. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired.- (interjection)- Order, please. SPEAKER'S RULI NG Mr.

Speaker: We have a ruling for the House. On December 14, 1989, during deba te on Bill No. 67, the Deputy Speaker took under advisement a point of order raised by the Honourable Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Angus) respecting words spoken the Honourable Member for Thompson Ashton) it was alleged, maligned and attributed motive to professional administrators and municipal I have reviewed Hansard, and what occurred was clearly a dispute over the facts which, as Honourable Members know, is not a point of order. I must therefore rule that the Honourable Member for St.

Norb ert did not ha ve a point of ord er. (interjection)- Order, please. COMMITTE E CHANGES Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Gimli, with his committee changes. Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Lac du Bonnet {Mr. Pra zn ik), th at the compo sition of the Standing Committee on Indus trial Relations be amended as follows: Pankratz for the vacancy that we have. Mr. Speaker: Agreed? Agreed. The Honour able Memb er for lnk ster wit h hi s committee changes. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): Mr. Speaker, this is to con firm a committee change earlier toda y in committee.

I move, seconded by the Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards), tha t the compo sition of the Standing Committee on Indus trial Relations be amended as follows: lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux) for Ellice (Ms. Gray). Mr. Speaker: Agreed? Agreed. ORDERS OF THE DAY HOUSE BUSINESS Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you be so kind as to call the Bills in the following order: 63, 103, 102, 99 and 100? Mr. Speaker: On the propos ed motion of the Honour able Minister of Jus tice (Mr. McCra e)-the Honourable Member for Thompson. Mr.

Steve Ashton (Second Opposition House Leader): When the Government House Leader (Mr. McCrae) plan ned on the sched uling of further committee hearings-there are a number of committees that are in the process of deliberating on certain Bills. I am wondering if the House Leader can indicate when he would be scheduling further committees, for example, tonight? * (14 20) Mr. Mccrae: I would hope, following further consu ltation with the Honourable Member and others, I would be able to make annou ncements later afte rnoon. Speaker. Speaker: would like to thank the Honourable Government House Leader . 5889

Tuesday, March 13 , 1990 TH IRD READI NGS-AMENDED BILLS Bill NO. 63- THE CONSUM ER PROTECT ION AMENDMENT ACT

(3) Mr. Speaker: On the pro posed motion of the Honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae), Bill No. 63, The Consumer Protection Amendment Act (3); Loi no 3 modifiant la

Loi sur la protection du consommateur, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Radisson (Mr. Patterson). Stand. Is there leave that this matter remain standing? Agreed. DEBATE ON SECOND READING S Bill NO. 10 3- THE STATUTE lAW AMENDMENT (RE- ENA CTED STATU TES) ACT, 19 90 Mr. Sp eak er: On the propos ed motion of the Honourable Minister of Justice, Bill No. 103; The Statute Law Amendment (Re-enacted Statutes) Act, 19 90; Loi de 1990 modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives (Lois readoptees)-the Honourable Member for Osborne. Mr. Reg Alcock (Opposition House Leader): Stand. Mr. Speaker: Stand.

Is there leave that this matter remain standing? The Honourable Minister of Justice. Hon. James Mccrae (Government House leader): If I understand what is happe ning-I was engaged in a dis cuss ion- Bill No. 10 3 has been stood by Honourable Members and it had been my propos al. I had called for Bill No. 102 as well and it had been my proposal to move both those Bills into Committee of the Whole at the same time, but if it is not the will of Honourable Members to pass Bill No. 103 at second reading at this time then we should just skip ahead to Bill No. 99. Mr.

Speaker: Is there leave that this matter remain standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock)? Agreed. The Honourable Government House Leader, do you want me to just-No. 99? Ninety-nine. Bill NO. 99-T HE APPROPRIA T ION ACT, 19 89 Mr. Spea ker: On the propos ed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), Bill No. 99, The Appropriation Act, 1989; Loi de 19 89 portant affectat ion de credits, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Radisson (Mr. Patterson), who has two minutes remaining. Stand. Is there leave that this matter remain stand ing? Agreed.

Also standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Ellice (Ms. Gray), who has 21 minutes remaining. Stand. Is there leave that this matter remain stan ding in the name of the Honourable Member for Ellice? Agreed. 5890 Bill NO. 10 0-T HE SUP PLEMENTARY APPROPRIA TI ON ACT, 1989 Mr. Speaker: On the pro posed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), Bill No. 100, The Supplementary Appropriation Act, 19 89; Loi de 19 89 portant affect ation supplementaire de credits, standing in the name of the Honourable Member of Nia kwa (Mr. Herold Driedger), who has 10 minutes remaining. Stand.

Is there leave that this matter remain standing? Agreed. The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik). Mr. Darren Praznik (lac du Bonnet): Thank you. I note the appl ause from the Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) and it is certainly appreciated as I rise today to speak on this- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, I certainly appreciate this opportunity today to take some time out from the very hectic legisla tive

schedule that all Members of this House are now participating in and very much involv ed in with the committees and general deba tes, et cetera, to take up an opportunity to reflect upon some of the financial plans of the Government and the financial situation in general that our province currently faces. Mr. Speaker, debates on Bills such as this give all Members of this House an opportunity to address in the large perspective the funding and finances of our provincial administration.

Today I would like to use the time allotted to me to put on the record some of my ob servations as a Member, alb eit a Government back bencher, on what I hear and see every day that goes on in this particular Cham ber, what I hear and see as it goes on from the perspective of the media, and to reflect on the financial operations of our province and the state of the finances of our province that we as legisla tors find ourselves in. Mr.

Speaker, what disturbs me perhaps the most about being a Member of the Legislative Assemb ly, and perhaps it is a reality from which all of us may never be able to escape, but that is, as I sit here day after da y through Que stion Peri od, as I sit thr ough committees, and it is a fascinating experience, what I continually see is this almost sense of unreality in which many in this Chambe r, indeed many in the media, many in the public live.

I find that very disturbing, because what we are here to do, at some $8,000 or $1 0,000 a day that this particular Chamber costs the taxpa yers of Manitoba, is to establish priorities for what is in reality the meagre resources of our province. We spend now on behalf of the people, and we all take some responsibility for that in this Chamber, some $4.8 billion approximately, and with approximately a million people in our province, that works out to about $4,700-$4,800 per man, woman and child in our provinc e. That is a lot of money. It is a great deal of money.

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 An Honourable Member: A million people times $4 is $4 million. Mr. Praznik: Four and a half billion -b illion. The Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Angus) attempts to correct me from the seat. Obviously , he has not quite heard what I have said. Perhaps it is a faulty sound syste m. Perhaps the Member is not using the sound system. It is billion with a "b ," Mr. Speaker, to which I am referring. We spend th at money , and we come into th at Chamber as if often we can fulfil! every demand, every request on the provincial Treasu ry. The reality of it, Mr.

Speaker, when you go into my constituency which is not a wealthy constituenc y, indeed there are very few cons titue ncies in th is pr ovince that ha ve a preponderance of wealthy citizens, we hear over and over again that there is no more room, there is not another nickel, not another dollar that we can take out of the average taxpayers in this province. * (1 430) Yet we come into this Cham ber day after day and group after group with very legitimate concerns and demands to make upon the Treasury , put forward proposals where we are asked as a Legislature, because ultima tel y we as legislators have the responsibility to approve the expenditu res of this province.

We come here each day and we hear these demands. Members of this Assembly take up tho se causes and those demands, not in the sense of trying to stretch a dollar furth er, not from the sense often of trying to reprioritize expendit ures to meet current demand, to meet updated and ever evolving need, but rather to gain very short term political favour with the groups that come to their door as legislators or to their caucus doors or this Assembly asking that their very specific needs be met. Mr.

Speaker, when I was a university student at the University of Winnipeg a short distance from here, I happened to be privileged to have as a professor a gentlemen named Emmett Mulvan ey. Mr. Mulvane y, whom I came to respect very highly , had served the people of this province in a capacity in the Department of Labour for some years in the '60s.

What I appreciated so much about Emmett Mulvaney was that he was a professor who not only challenged you to question the way things were, to break them down and be critical, but more importantly Professor Mulvaney challenged his students to put the pieces back together at the end of the day into a workable whole, a whole that made some sense and could work. Emmett Mulvaney had an observation about this place for which I have come to appreciate that there was a great deal of truth.

Emmett Mulvaney used to say it appeared that Members of the Legislature had a packet of arguments on their desk, whether they be in Government or Opposition, and that following an election when there was a change of administration, that often a defeated Government would fold its packet of arguments; the Opposition would fold its packet of arguments. They would cross the floor and then reopen the files in front of them and carry on as ii there had really been no change. There is a great deal of truth to that, because the realities of Government, and I, Mr.

Speaker, have been privileged in my short political career, whether it has been as an assistant to a federal Cabinet Minister or as a Member of this Assemb ly, to have always been on the Government side and have always been in the oper ations of Go vernment. I ha ve not had the experience of being in an Opposition role and inevitably in the course of provincial histor y, if I survive as a Member for Lac du Bonnet long enough, I am likely to some day be in that role, I hope in the distant future as opposed to the immediate future.

But in Government you realize very quickly that you are extremely limited in your actions. You are limited in how much change you can actually effect in the expenditure of provincial or federal dollars or in the setting of policy, and of course there is the human limitation of just time and energy . So, Mr.

Speaker, for those who find thems elves on th ese ben ches and our colleagues in the New Democratic Party just two years and some months ago were on these benches and there are Members of the Liber al Party of whom have had to sit in some Government role, whether it be in city Hall or in the case of the Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr), as an assistant to a federal Minister, they too realize very quickly the limitations which having executive authority give to those who possess it.

What disturbs me so much is given those realities, what we hear day after day after day from those in Opposition and perhaps I would make similar arguments if I were there, although I would hope that I would be more innovative, is not to deal with those questions of priority from I would think a realistic sense, but the arguments of often very short-term political gain. I do not blame Opposition Members entirely for that stance. I do not because one of the realities is when you are not in Government you do not have access, of course, to the mechanisms of research.

You do not have access to the planning, the policy information that gives you a- POINT OF ORDER Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia, on a point of order. Mr. Ed Mandrake (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I have been listening to the Member for Lac du Bonnet talking about everyt hing else but Bill 100. I would hope that you would call the Member to order and bring him down to the relevancy of the Bill. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Mandrake), and I would remind the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr.

Praznik) that the question before the House is- order, please -Bill 100, The Supplementary Appropriation Act. I would ask the Honourable Member to keep his remarks relevant to the question. The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. 5891 •

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 ***** Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate your general caution, but for the benefit of the Member for Assiniboia this is a Supplementary Appropriations Bill that - (interjection)- no, I am-the Member for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux) shouts out, challenging !he Chair. He should be the last one to know when to challenge the Chair or what is happening in !his House. Mr. Speaker, Supplementary Appropriations deal with all the financial dealings of the Govern ment. As a Member of this House am allowed, believe, 40 minutes to speak on this Bill.

I am trying to set a context my comments on the appropriations Government has requested. hope the Member the courtesy appreciating as a Member deal with nrinr-inlc.c in this province and to put (int erjection)- the Member comments about me "b eing a young I appreciate his comments about the Member for Ass iniboia (Mr. is perhaps somewhat envious of the youth of myself, the Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) and others, but that is something that he will have to deal with and I do not choose to comment on furthe r. Mr.

Speaker, back to the context of the debates and the direction that this House tries to give expendit ures in this province through the vehicle of the Question Period, through the vehicle of the news and to return to some of those ob servat ions and principles tha t I think are important to the people of Manitoba. (Mr. William Chomopyski, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) Mr.

Deputy Speaker, we hear day after day the media, in this House, in in Question demands upon the Provincial Treasury each and every time a group, or cause comes forward as I have said, very legitimate, doing work in a specific area, doing good work, but come forward and ask this Legislature to provide them with more funds in the context of the work they are doing.

Of course the Opposition, in attempting to, would think, just as we would in Opposition, gain short-term politic al favour , take up that cause and promote it The news media having to meet deadlines and not having access as I have indicated to the kind of supports that Governments, Ministers do, not having access, the Or.ooc1sition and the media, not having access to the of contacts, the information sources, the planning that Ministers and departments are able to have access to, do not always fully appreciate the context in which those requests are made, do not often appreciate that politics is a broader game, a broader business than just the politics of the Liberal, Co nservative and New Democratic Parties, the partisan politics that we fight in this Chamber; and that there are politics, small "p" pol itics in that sense, that operate within organizations, within the social services sphere, within the agricultur al sphere, within the business community, politic s in the sense of human relations, as we each in our own way 5892 or through the associat ions and organizations of which we are a part, struggle to obtain the priorities, scruggle to get the dollars or the funding going where we think they should go.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, so each day in this forum we hear repeated demands as to where our provincial resou rces should be spent. If one were to only watch this Chamber or only watch the television news or read the newspaper, one would think that every service is on the brink of disaster and that a Government in power, whichever Party would sit on th ese Benches, is not fulfilling some sort of demand on part the public and thousands, hundr eds thous ands of (14 40) education, dollars on maintaining highway maintenance, et cetera Yes, there would be perhaps a difference in those few priorities.

There would be some difference in maybe being spent here or there, but most of those dollars would be spent. So what does that leave a Government or a in its expen dit ures? Quite frankly, Mr. Deputy very little. It leaves very little room in terms of the overall at the discretion, the or this Legislature. Deputy Speaker, on the revenue side-we must also look at that for a moment-the maneuvering room of a Government to raise additional level revenue is almost entirely gone.

Governments over the last two or three decades have found and attacked almost every conceivable source of reve nue, so much so that a federal Government, and l say very honestly, whose own expenditures, its own dis cretion ary expendit ures are out of control , a federal Go vern ment whose legislat ive expenditures have grown at leaps and bounds that probably were never imagined by those who brought in that legislation in the '60s and '70s, has been forced, so they claim, to look at a goods and services tax. We are not going to get into that debate tod ay.

This is not the forum for it, but it unde rli nes ho w Governments everywhere, striving to find those additional nickels and quarters to meet the demands on their Treasuries, are forced into taxes that are extremely unpopular, forced to face the political attacks that result from that, because they have no other sources of revenue, or reve nue expenditur es from traditional sources are not sufficient to meet those demands on our Treasury . We therefore can only conclude that quite frankly our population in this province, indeed across the countr y, ha s reached th e sa tu rat ion point.

It is incumbent upon us as legislators, as my friend, the Member for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak), has said many

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 times on a variety of issues, to come clean as legislators and realize fully that there are no more sources of revenue that we can tab without creating great hardship on the part of the taxpayers of this province. The only conclusion that can be left to us, as legislators, is that our responsibility is to make darn sure that the money we are spe nding, as legisla tors, is spent well and that we get $1 .25 worth of value out of every dollar we spend. That is not always easy , because that means looking at how we spend our money with a very hard-no sed eye or a hard-nosed attitude.

That means questioning programs and ques tioning expen ditur es that have become traditions as to whether they are still fulfilling the value or providing the value for which they were initially intended. That means looking again at our priorities and updating them. Mr. Deputy Speaker, that is never a pleasant task. It is always easy to create a new program or to add funding to a program that is fulfilling a new need .

It is very difficult to go to a program or an agen cy, whose mandate was at one time a tremendous mandate but who has fulfilled it or the need has moved on yet the funding stays in place and yet the mandate or the purpose is no longer there, and say, it is time to reassess our support for what you do, not that you have not done a good job in the past but it is not our priority toda y. Of course, Mr. Deputy Speaker, what underlines all of this de bate is the selection of pri oriti es. Any Government sitting here has to make choices.

What Government is all about, what politics in our province is all about, is the choice of priorities. Where will we put that little extra 1 percent or half of 1 percent, here or there? Whatever Party sits on this side of the House obviously will try to accommodate as much as possible, but we really argue over very little when you come right down to it.

Coming back to my original comment, what disturbs me so much is that our politics in this province-we yell and we scream at one anoth er, we argue and we make out as if the world is about to collapse when we are really arguing over a ver y, very small part of our total expenditure, a very small part of the issues. We do not come at it from the attitude of saying, let us really examine the priorities. Do we do a little bit more here or a little bit more there? No, we come at it from the attitude as if this is the whole focus of what we do. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I do not think the public deba te is well served by that nor are the people of Manitoba well served by that kind of attitude. If I may just digress a little bit on that point to reinforce my concern, I blame not entirely Opposition Members. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have sat in Chamber now for two years. I have sat through Question Periods, bu dge t deba tes, de ba tes on Bil ls, sat through committee, and it never fails to amaze me that when that television camera peers through that curtain, this becomes a very different place.

Comments, issues and debate that can normally be done in some sort of civilized manner, all of a sudden this becomes a circus when that lens peers through tho se curtains. An Honourable Member: A zoo breaks out. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Speaker -(interjection)- exactly , as my colleague from Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) indicates, the zoo opens up. The best Question Period I have ever experienced, Mr. Deputy Speaker, or the best two have been the days that we bring down the provincial budget, because those are the days that all our friends in the media are locked up studying the budget document.

They are not here in this Cham ber. We get good questions, we get good answers. In fact, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I compliment you because one of the best questions during the life of this Legislature was from yourself on the day we brought down the first Government budget, when I believe you asked the Minister of Seniors some questions on the seniors' card, as an identification card or Phar macare card. It was a very good question in which many people would have liked to have known an answer.

I cannot remember if a forthcoming answer came from the Minister of the Day, but it was a good question, worthy of coverage in the media. * (14 50) If the media had been here I doubt if you would have seen the Member for Burrows' (Mr. Chornopyski) name in the newspaper, no, probably not. Perhaps that question would not even have been asked and probably not by the Member for Burrows because some other person in his caucus, who had to have greater atten tion from the front benches, any one of them, would have been given that question.

The Member for Burrows, who is probably one of the most unassuming gentle people who has ever sat in this House, would not have been allowed to ask that question, quite likely, because he probably could not have created enough fire and brimstone to attach the attention of the press. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, when we see the media come into this Chamber and we see that television camera, this place turns into a circus.

The electors from my constituenc y, the constituents from Lac du Bonnet, as I am sure from many other Member's ridings who sit in this gallery to come and see their seat of Parliament, the seat of their Government operate, walk away thorough ly, thoroughly disgusted, not with one specific Member or one Party, but with all of us, all of us in this Cham ber. They leave here with a sense that their tax dollars, at $8,000 or $1 0,000 a day, or whatever it costs to operate this facility, are thoroug hly, thoroughly wasted. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we sit here in this Chamber we de bate the fin ances of the province.

We ask questions as we in a vacuum, that there was world out there, that there were real working hard to earn real dollars to pay taxes so that we can provide them with real services. Mr. Deputy Sp eaker , ther e are Mem bers - (interjec tion) - The Mem ber for Ass ini boia (Mr . 5893

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 Mandrake) says that is my perception. I have to tell you this about the Member for Assiniboia: I have a great deal of respect for the Member for Ass iniboia. I know that he works hard in his constituenc y. I know that he keeps in touch with a lot of people in his riding and I give him full credit for that. I know he has brought legislation and amendments to Bills, some of which I have not agreed with, but they have been well intended. I would say that Member is trying, as I try, as the Member for Lac du Bonnet, to do the best job we can.

But we do it in a Cham ber and in a context that so often distorts tho se good int entions, that raises the debate and the questions to live or die, partisan issues that quite frankly do not mean diddly-squat to most people in this province. Mr. Deputy Speaker, that is the most disturbing part of being a Member of this Assembly. I do not know if it will ever change, but I do know this: when that television camera peers through tho se curtains we all change. Every one of us in this House changes.

I think we change to all of our detriment and to the detriment of this Legislature, in this Parliament and the process parliamentary system of Government. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have before this House, as I said, a sup plementa ry supply Bill, and we have questions of finances. I would be prepared , as I am sure Members opposite would be, if given the chance to have some very serious debate on those priorities of Government spending with realistic information and facts and figures and priorities. When I campaigned in two provincial elections, my main opponent, Mr.

Baker, the former Member for Lac du Bonne t-I had the privilege, you could say, of losing to Mr. Baker once and he had the privilege of losing to me on one occasion. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we enjoyed the debates we had during those campaigns, because both Mr. Baker and I were candida tes who had some knowledge of the operation of Government, Mr. Baker from his experience in the municipal politics and from his two years in this pla ce, and myself from my experience of working for the Honourable Jake Epp.

So we were able to debate issues and priorities and direction with some knowledge of the realities in which Governments and Ministers have to operate. At any time either of us strayed off the path, off of realit y, into some never-never world of cheap political shots, we were brought back very quickly by the oth er. It made for good discussion of priorities, good discussion of politics. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, my regret again is when we debate these Bills; when we debate expenditure in Estimates; when we debate in front of that television camera, in front of that medium, we get down to some sorl of unrealistic debate and discussion or argument often without any touch stone in Mr. by that kind Manness )-1 occasion Finance speak last week at a meeting part of our province. I heard speak financial situation of the province; of our deficit; of our revenue projections; of our ability to raise dollars and 5894 to spend them. I can tell you I was most impressed by his knowledge and understanding and control.

I say that as a Government Member, I do not have the opportunity every day to be briefed by the Minister of Finance. I can tell you there would be few Members in this Hous e, few if any, who would have tha t knowledge, experience, that updated information to deal with the true questions facing us as a province. What I say to all of us as Members here is, we must have some responsibility to brief ourselves properly to deal with tho se questions, because there are questions that are worthy of differences of opinion, of legiti mate differences of opinion.

Th ere are ques tions of differences of priority, but I never seem to hear real solid argument when we debate before the television camera in this Cham ber in committee and perhaps that never will be. Perhaps the partisan nature of this place and of our politics will forever preclude that. But, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, there is a challenge that goes out to tho se who are not in this Chamber tod ay, tho se who report in our media, those who cover this place, that challenges to them is to raise the level of debate in this place on these issues by challenging politicians of whatever stripe when they put forward inaccurate or unthough t-out positions, to challenge them by making themselves well versed in the facts in realit y.

I have no problem with debating with any media in my riding or any media when we are dealing with the facts, but it is difficult to raise the level of debate in this place until the media in this province and indeed across the country are able to rise to that challenge. Mr. Deputy Sp eak er, as I said earlie r in my discussions, we as a province spend well over $4,600- $4, 700 per person in this province. Where do we spend it? We spend over $1 ,500 per man, woman and child in this province on health care. Almost $1 out of $3 on health care.

We spend some $880 approximately per man, woman and child in this province on education. We spend some $600 per man, woman and child on servicing our debt, on providing tax credits, et cetera. We spend some $330 approximately per man, woman and child on our social welfare programs, economic security programs, home care, child care, foster care programs, et cetera. We spend approximately $1 02 on new high way constr uct ion every ye ar. We spend approximately $98 on maintaining our highway syst em. We spend, what, about $200 per man, woman and child-I addre ss this to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr.

Findla y)-in total on agricultur e and agricultu ral programs. An Honourable Member: About $100.00. Mr. Praznik: Pardon me, about $100 per man, woman and child in the Department of Agriculture. Last year as an area from my constituency and a large part of this province who live off the forest industr y, our total budget for fire suppression, a budget that has been place for a number of years, was approximately $6.90 per man, woman and child. When the fires got out of control we spent appr oxi mately $80, Mr. Deputy Speaker. That gives you a sense, I think giv es all of us a sense of where our dollars are going.

By far the lion's share now goes to health and education.

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 * (1 500) Health, education, debt, tax credits and social welfare programs consume almost two-thirds of our provincial budget What leverage is there really for a Government in changing those priorities? Very little, very little indeed. You cannot go to the Department of Highways and take $10 millio n or $20 million out of new hig hway construction to put into health care; $10 million or $20 million out of $1.5 billion.

That is $10 or $20 compared to $1 ,500-a drop in the bucket Our highways, goodne ss knows, they are run down enough in this province, and in need of further capital injection. The reali ty, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is there is very little room for changing those priorities. They are small changes that can be made but very small.

The sooner the people of we as their representatives fully realize and appreciate that and get down to the difficult work of ct.·o«�hlr.n those dollars a little bit more in dealing with those areas where we can make a difference, the better off I think debate in this province will be and indeed the province will be. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) who I had occasion to visit in hospital as he recuperates from his most unfortunate injury and I am sure all Members share with me in our concern for him no matter what our partisan beliefs. We would never wish that kind of accident upon anyone.

The Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard), in lookin g in his own department, was able and is able to find areas where little changes can save those extra few dolla rs. One example which the Minister of Health pointed out to this Assembly prior to his injury was in the area of lab oratory tests. The fastest growing industry in Ontario today is medical laboratories. It is the fastest growing industr y. In our province, up to a year ago, a physician in ordering tests for a patient, had an order form that listed the 18 short list tests and had a little box that said, short list tests.

With the stroke of a pencil the physician could order all 18 tests by checking that little box, that all-encompassing box. Whether the patient needed all 18 tests or not was a different question, and Don Orchard, as Minister of Health, a year ago changed the regulations to require labor atories to remove that little box off their order form so that they would actually have to check which of the 18 tests they required for their patient. If they only required five, they would check five. If they required 10, they checked 10. If they required all 18 , they would check all 18.

No longer would a lab do just as a matter of course all 18 tests. That one little change in the last year has saved the people of Manitoba $1. 2 million, that is now available for so many other needed services. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I see that you are indicating to me that my time is drawing quickly to a close. I would like to thank the House for the opportunity to address them on this matt er. I would hope that my comments some day will have an effect, albeit it a small one, on the way we conduct public business in this province. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Mr.

Deputy Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The Honourable Minister of Environment. Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is my pleasure to put a few comments on the record. I think it is about time that we beg in to clarify for the Opposition the fact that the Gov ernment is not a bottom less pit when it comes to financial expenditures. What you see before you here in Bills 99 and 100 is the hard dolla rs that we do have to spend on behalf of the public of this province.

How those dolla rs are spent, how they are distributed, how they are controlled is fundamental to how we are able to deliver services to the people of this province. So often day after day we are questioned in the House about whether or not the commitment of th is Government is truly to people or if it is more along the line that the Opposition would like to portray us.

Frankly, su ppose tha t in a backhanded way they have been this Government a compliment, because for the months the questions have flown in the not we were providing services one of the really important aspects make decisions on every time an expenditure is brought forward within our Government. I guess I will get right into the context of what I want to refer to, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Part of it flows back to a decision that was made early on in the mandate of this Government, and that was the decision to put $10 million into the Northern Flood Agreement.

The Native people of this province have been negotiating for a decade on the Northern Flood Agreement with very little progress.

The lawyers and the negotiators were well but not the people who were supposed to be the benefits. would suggest to you that not only were the people who were suppo sed to be receiving the benefits not being well served neither were the the taxpa yers of this province and the users of Manitoba Hydro utilit y, because as those negotiations dragged on over the years there was a semblance of lack of good faith, certainly a perce ption of not cari ng, and more realistically I think there was a percept ion of avoidance of the reality of the situation that the people of that area found thems elves in.

That is an example of the kind of Government that I would never be part of. The Government ol the Day did not do a good job of, (

a) moving forward with their responsibilities and , (

b) acting responsibly on behalf of the people in the northern part of this province who were affected by the Northern Flood Agreement and had very little opportunity to do something on their own behalf in order to mitigate the affairs as they found thems elves faced with after some of the construction, the Hydro infrastructure. That, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, leads me into a discussion of the management of Government affairs and how I belie ve the se past two years, and par ticu larly in reference to th ese Bills thi s la st year, ho w this Go vernment ha s acted respo nsi b ly, ho w the Government has forward its concerns for the public of this province and how it has attempted-you may dispute the priorities that we have placed them, but you can certai nly not dispute the fact that we have attempted to balance tho se prioritie s in our best judgement as to how to make the best use of the dollar 5895

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 and have the most positive impact for the people of this province both in a social and economic manner. We can look at the expenditures brought forward in Manitoba crop insurance and how it has been enhanced, Mr. Deputy Speaker. From the rural point of view-let me just deal with that for a minute-not only has crop insurance been enhanced, MACC has received a new manda te. Th ere has been a con tinua tion of the education tax reduction program for agriculture.

The very fact that this Government was able to go ahead with the assessment reform is one of those situations that has created fairness and equity across the province, not only with rural but also with urban taxpayers. Again, I say to you, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that is an example of how we have tried to balance over the past number of months, ever since being given a mandate by the people of this province, to make sure that our priorities were straight, that we made decisions on the basis of what needed to be done for the people of this province, and we were prepared to take the fallout that came from some of tho se decisions. After all, for a number of years, all of us, including yourself, knew that assessment in this province was sorely out of whack. It was obsolete, it was not up to date.

We have numerous jurisdictions that were 10 and 11 years behind on being reassess ed. We had jurisdictions where the shifts were not being mitigated, where the weight of education costs were falling on inappropriate areas for taxation purposes.

We had examples of how it was most difficult for the province, the Government of the Day, to be able to justify how the taxes were being raised on real property across this province, but they were reluctant, in fact they were unwilling and unable to deal with the situations they were faced with. * (1 510) So again, not only were we faced with making some very difficult decisions, Mr. Deputy Speaker, decisions which in the long run were in the direction of fairness and equi ty, we were again char ged with making decisions on expenditures of funds on a priority basis.

That priority basis decision-making had to go back to the previous fiscal year, as well to put several hundred thousands of dollars into the development of the computer system so th at th e most up-to-date asse ssment could be brought forward for the taxpayers of this province. That ended up coming forward this year in the culmination and the development of the asses sment reform package that was recently passed in this Legislature.

At the same time, because we had jurisdictions that were badly out of whack and were going to be faced with a severe impact from education finances, we moved to put some dollars into that area to make sure that mitigation could be done with the least possible impact in a dramatic fashion, at least, for those ratepayers. Mr. Deputy Speaker, when we look across the whole face of how expenditur es have gone in this Govern ment, we can look in almost every department and see where we have been laced with similar types of decisions, decisions that have not been easy.

One of the more 5896 difficult ones for me personally was the day care workers and bringing the funding that was needed into place in order to fairly address the problems of day care. You know as well as I do there were some harsh words said on both sides as to how this should be finally settled, and what constituted a fair and equitable arrangement for that problem in the province.

Ultimately we were vindi cated in terms of having the majority of people who were involved in the problem say some positive moves have been made, and that we were moving in the right direction and that the dollars were going there-well, no one was ever satisfied they were getting enough, they were satisfied the direction was there, and the y were satisfied that the needs were going to be addressed in terms of a long-range plan. Look at my own department, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Environment received a pretty decent increase in the last budget in terms of a percentage increase in relationship to other departments.

The simple fact is, in the Department of Environment, one of the things that we are going to be faced with more and more is the management of growth, the simple management of the growth on the demands on the Department of Environment.

It is not a question of whether or not we pour more money in and certainly it will take more money, but it is a question of whether or not we can adequately supply the expertise to provide for proper evaluation under the control side of The Environment Act, whether or not we can provide the proper regulation on the side related to dangerous goods handling and transportation and to bringing forward, if you will, where it is warranted, prosecutions under violations of The Environment Act. The simple fact, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that we have been able to manage the growth for the last two years in the Environment Department, and it has been expedie ntial-1 think there is not anyone within the department who would dispute that question. The attention that is attracted to thi s respon sibi lity is enormous. I have to repeat to you that the amount of money that is poured in there is not the only yardstick by which this needs to be judged.

It has to be judged by what is done with that mone y afterwards, how the issues are dealt with, whether they are dealt with fairly, adequa tely, in a timely manner and if in fact all of the environmental considerations are being dealt with. From time to time, there will be disagreements there as well I am sure. The fact is that the dolla rs that this Government has to spend will be restricted in the coming months and possi bly year to come. My de partment and every other department of this Government is going to have to make sure it is getting full value for its dollar. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, let us not harken to some of the comments that come from my colleagues across the way, whose sole cry day after day in this Legislature generally is whether or not we are putting enough money into the programs. Why do we not spend more? Why do we not provide another service, no matter what it costs? -(interjection)- The Member for St Norbert (Mr. Angus) I think wants to disassociate himself from that policy. I am glad to

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 hear that, because it seems to me that in fact what we need is some fair and honest evaluation of what is happening in the provincial Government in this province and the fiscal management that is being applied. I do not expect to stand here and have all of the Members across the way applaud and appreciate what I am say ing, but at the same time, given parliamentary Rules I guess they will either have to leave or listen to it. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, when I look to other departments and my neighbour across the hall in Ind ust ry, Trade and Tourism, the responsibilities that he has to deal with and the manner in which he has dealt with them, again I want to put on the record that the decision making process we put in place and how we manage the dollars that are allocated to these departments is a demonstration of how we believe this province should be governed and how we would like to be able to provide leadership for the foreseea ble number of years.

We know that by careful management we can make those dollars go as far as we possibly can, sometimes further than they are expected to go to tell you the truth. In doing so, we can achieve results and growth for the people of this province. I would point very proudly to the achievement of the Minister of Industr y, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Ernst) in the growth of tourism in this province this past year. By some very careful analysis of where our potential market is he was able to bring forward I bel ieve a very positive result in terms of American tourism, particularly center ed around the Min neapol is-St.

Paul area, something that had not been exploited to the benefit of this province previous ly, an example of where some carefully spent, hard-earned dolla rs in the right time and in the right vehicle ach ieved some very demonstrable results for this province. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, there has always been discussion and I would sugge st some strong disagreement over the Canada-Manitoba Tourism Agreement, which was struck by the previous Government between the years 1985 and 1990, but nevertheless, we have followed through to be able to try and use the final dollars out of that program to the best advantage of the people of Manitoba, both within the city and outside. That is very important to make sure that what is one of the most vital and growing industries in this province is enhanced, is encouraged and given that opportunity for growth.

Certainly within that same frame, look at what has happened to the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission. I could not help- because I have some passing int erest in this sport, given my rural background, my association with agricultural fairs over the years, that in fact there is all of a sudden a shortage of stable space at Assi nib oia Downs. The growth and the demand that has been created there through changes that have been made both by the association and by the Government are compatible with that industr y. They are going to attract tourism and they are going to attract growth within that industr y.

You might not say that is comparable to Boeing, but believe me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the enter tainment, the enjoyment, the growth and the dollars that change hands in that industry are important to this province. They are important to that segment of the population, and it knows no barriers between urban and rural, because the sport of kings is very popular among the urban people. Many of the owners certainly are from within the city and are very, very pleased and very encouraged to see the devel opments that have occurred there. * (1 520) Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I would go on and on through the various departments, but one area where I think I would like to spend some time and talk about a change that occurred is within the Department of Govern ment Services and particularly under the Disaster Assistance Board.

The manner in which that responsibility has been handled in the last two years demonstrates to me clearly that we have been able to carefully manage the dollars, husband the dolla rs that are avai lable for our disposal, to help tho se who cannot help the mselves or are in a position where they cannot be helped by normal means, and to deal with the situation that we were faced with upon coming into Government and then some of that flowing through into the next year.

We were faced with flood and fire, and fortunately not famine, but flood, fire and drought all at the same time in the same province, a most difficult natural set of circumstances which all contrived to create considerable havoc across the province. I can tell you as an example that even though the workload in that area is increased dramatically , and I took some umbrage at the fact that the Leader of the Opposition referred to Mr.

Reimer as having had his experience in disaster assistance, because that is what he was doing again now, but somehow reflected upon the abil ities of this gentleman, because up until the recent months, his main responsibility has been with the Disaster Assistanc e Board. He dealt with a tremendous volume of appeals, a very much larger demand for dolla rs, and did it for a third of the cost, ad minis tratively . Mr. Deputy Speak er, I think that demonstrates how good management and good people in the right place can better husband the responsibilities and dollars which we have to allocate across the province.

When we move into the Health and Community Services area, I guess again I would point to the fact that the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) brought forward one of the most ambi tious progra ms for capital development. I was disappointed, I have to tell you, to read the comments of the House Leader of the main Opposition (Mr.

Alcock) when he referred to how the capital had been distributed across the province, when he referred to the fact that the Minister of Health was going to be building a lot of hospitals across rural Manitoba that would remain half full, and it was put in the context of the fact that was a foregone conclusion, and it therefore was undesirable to build those types of facilities. I would only reference the fact that I talked to the Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) not less than a day ago and the hospital at Erickson is full and is operating to capacity.

It is a hospital that many people, those who are in Opposition to us, said that 5897

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 we should never build and that there was no reason for it. Mr. Deputy Speaker, it seems to me that someone who lives alongside of the Riding Mountain has every bit as much of an opportunity to get sick as someone who lives within the perime ter. We have to be able to provide services equally in all parts of this province and that is the goal and I think a proper goal for this Government to be dealing with. We need to make sure that the major facilities in this province are upgraded.

We need to make sure that they are able to deal with the voluminous numb ers tha t come to them for treatment. There is no question that people all across the province have come to the City of Winnipeg for treatment because this is where the expertise, this is where the specialists have been. It has naturally followed that we have needed to provide those facilities here. The fact is that as we now approach a new fiscal era in this province that we are going to have to make sure that we very carefully establish our priorities.

I guess that is the reason that I rise to speak to these issues toda y because by outlining how we have dealt with the decision-making process and a number of other areas in the period of time leading up to this I think should demonstrate to you and to the people of this province that our decision-making ability is there and that we are willing to put priorities where the people of this province bel ieve that they should be.

I am not at all surpr ised that the judgment that has been applied by this Government to the distribution of the very limited dolla rs that we have to spend over this past fiscal year has not been criticized in its priorities. It has not been criticized in the areas of where the expenditures have gone, but has been criticized largely in the extent that people have said there should be more; conversely they have said, well, you have not funded everyt hing.

The fact is that unfortuna tely that comes down to where there has to be some decision-making about what services are treated as priorit ies within the responsibility of the provincial Government. We know that the federal transfers that are going to be coming to this province are not going to be enhanced. We know that in fact we will see a loss.

We know that the agricultural community has not been able to carry its own weight this last couple of years, that in fact the revenues that come from agriculture in terms of taxation are going to be restricted unless we see a rather dramatic turnaround in the very, very near period. We know that the demands that we have been able to fulfill upon revenues from mining taxation are not growing and are going to be restricted and of course, as they always are, controlled by external prices that our manufacturers are forced to take on world metal markets, but the simple !act is, we will manage.

This province is middle-of-the-road in terms of economic when one area starts to suffer very often we find that other areas will strengthen. can only tell you, Mr. Deputy the kind of basis we have built in this province limiting the growth of personal income taxes, by limiting some ol the expenditu res of funds that would not reach a very high level in priority for this province. We will be able to make the economy of this province function on behalf of the residents to the greatest advantage of each and every one of the people in this province. In that aspect, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I will take the opportunity to turn to a couple of things within my own department. As I indicated before, Environment is not one of the larger departments, but it is one of the departments that does have to manage growth. At the same time, we have been able to embark on a legislativ e program without a lot of demands on funds to deal with environmental issues within this province. If that gives me the opportunity to speak about ACRE for a minute and put on the record what I did not finish doing during Question Period, probably I should take the opportunity now.

I take considerable offence every time the NDP Opposition rises to question whether or not ACRE is somehow a means for us to undermine the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Corpora tion, which is a Crown corporation, which is under my responsibil ity. The simple fact is that the Association for a Clean Rural Environment was established to deal with one particular issue plus bring forward a broader mandate when they were capable of handling it.

Their first issue they must deal with is the responsibility of dealing with the dis posal of pesticide containers across this province. * (1 530) It is an example of how, through good management and environment, we do not need to spend hundreds of th ousands or milli ons of additional doll ars of taxpayers' money in order to accomplish environmental goals. We can accomplish tha t through bringing together , through regulatory and legislative changes, the stakeholders in the various seg ments of this province who have environmental issues that they have to address.

This is an issue that has been percolating on the back burner for the last half dozen years, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The chemical industry decided they had better move before Governments moved on them in order to control the proliferation and improper disposal of pesticide containers across this province and in fact across the West. The critics of this proposal said: You are being sn ookered, Cummings. You will never get all of the money they say they are collecting in this province. It will go into a deep, dark hole in eastern Canada and you will never see it again.

They were putting aside what they said was the equivalent of a dollar a container. Well, the fact is that in pesticide companies chemical companies do have some proprietary interest in how much they sell. They do not want their competitor to know precisely the volume they sell, so these funds were put into a blind trust under the control of an accounting firm that was centered in Toronto, because that is where CPI C has its head offices as well. Mr. Deputy Speake r, I want to put on the record here that I collected a cheque on behalf of the province, which I tur ned over on behalf of ACRE, for $754,000.00.

It was collected on behalf of last year's pesticide sales. Giv en there would be normal sales again this year, and 5898

--------- -------- ----�------- Tuesday, March 13, 1990 let us say there is only $650,000 worth, we are still going to be looking at $1. 5 million for the 1990 season to clean up the pesticide containers across this province. It is going to cost the Province of Manitoba $25,000 to run a program of $1 .5 million. Now tell me where else in North America you are going to get the administration for that price, No. 1, and get that kind of value for your dollar in order to clean up an environmental problem? It simply cannot be done.

Even the supervisory costs of polluter-pay principle does not come anywhere near to that kind of a ratio, Mr. Deputy Speaker. That is an example of where the stakeholders can be used to clean up their own problems, rather than have the taxpayer go in an do it and then try and collect the money back under some kind of another regulatory process. It is clean. It is simple, and the Governments cannot get their grubb y hands on the money to squander it on something else. It will go toward the project for which it is designated.

You are guaranteed that when you have the municipal people, you have the representatives of the urban communities, you have the representatives of the chemical companies, you have the representatives of Agricultur e, Environment, sitting on the board to decide how these dolla rs can be best funded. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, it seems to me that is an example of how we can truly point to areas in this province through good management, how We have become, through whatever means you wish to credit it, but you cannot deny that we are now in a leadership role in how this matter is going to be dealt with across western Canada, because I can tell you two things. Number one, the chemical companies are very intrigued with this process. They are pleased, they think it is clean, and they were talking to the other two jurisdictions to the west of us to see if they are prepared to develop a parallel process.

Therefore, the Minister of Agricultur e (Mr. Findlay) and myself will, when time is available to us, be talking to our colleagues about whether or not there is some uniformity across the two western provinces to the west of us, the thr ee in total.and hopeful ly, B.C. as well. Whether tha t occurs sooner or lat er, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the fact is that without very much expen diture of taxpayers' dollars we have been able to do what I think will be more than an acceptable job.

Yet we have people within this Legislature who would raise the issue that somehow we were taking the back door way of destroyi ng, bringing down or reducing the importance of a Crown corporation. Well, the fact is that this Government does not believe that there needs to be a Crown corporation for every thing that happens, but it does not lower our commitment to dealing with hazardous waste across this province eith er. This is simply dealing with one very small portion of the waste stream that could be generated within the province. It is the one in this particular case associated with agriculture.

At any rate, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we can go on to other departments and gi ve you a simila r demonstration. In the Department of Natural Resources, for example, the charges and the costs that they were faced with this year regarding the fire supp ression and simply firefighting and the protect ion of the people of northern Manitoba and eastern Manitoba where they were being thr eatened by what was I think aptly described as an inferno this summer, some expenditures in the ne ighb ourhood of $70 million which were unanti cipated for the people of this province to have to pick up.

The simple fact is while you could not have eliminated or reduced those fires to the point where there would not have been massive damage, you certainly I think would appreciate, as I am sure the people across northern and eastern Manitoba appreciate, the fact that without the massive effort that was mounted we would have seen considerably greater impact on the personal lives of the people that were affected.

We would have seen considerably greater impact upon the future potential revenue that can be earned for this province from one of its greatest natural resources, that being our provincial resource of forests. Whether or not the people in this Legislature choose to agree that forestry is an honourable profession or whether it is a dishonourable profession and should be eliminated from the face of the earth is not the issue. If there is a sustainable industry in Manitoba-the re are two sustainable industries that in my mind are undeniable; one is agricultur e, the other is forestry.

I am sure, Sir, that you would agree that fisheries ranks right alongside those. The fact is that these are the kinds of challenges that we are being faced, and how we manage those issues and how we control the dollars is all related to what you see in these documents that are before you here toda y. I want to tell you that the other thing that I am very proud of and that I want to reference before my time runs out, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, is very simply the fact that I am exceptionally pleased and proud of the approach that this Government has taken toward fiscal responsibility on how we keep the books, because for far too long in this province we have assumed that Governments always cook the books, that they had imaginative ways of making the totals come out in a certain direction. We can even look to one situation here that I will use as a demonstration of how I believe we have returned some fiscal integrity to the bookkeeping in this province and I refer to the Manitoba Hydro's rate stabilization fund.

Certainly I would have to recognize the fact that it was put in place a number of years ago under a previous administra tion. The fact is now that the fund has been truly allocated where it should be, we do not need to have an expenditure line included under the Hydro rate fiscal stabili zation fund recorded in the manner that it has been for the last number of years. While that has relative effects in other parts of the budget, it puts the expenditures where they belong. When we came into Government, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, we were faced with the massive losses of MPIC which had to be written off and attributed to the proper time frame in which those losses accrued. Certainly in dealing with that there was a decision made that from now on those types of losses, God help us should they ever be perpetrated on this province again, must be reported in the years that they occur and not allowed to sort 5899

Tuesday, March 13, 1990 of hang out there in nowhere's land without being acknowledged as a liabi lity and resp onsibility of the Government. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Province of Manitoba has been a jurisdiction that has more or less been on its own in terms of demonstrating restraint in growth in its total budget.

I have to tell you, when I talk about fiscal integrity, one of the proudest times that I have had since I became a Member of this Government is when Premier Filmon was able to look the Prime Minister straight in the eye at the First Ministers' Co nference and indicate that if all jurisdictions within this country were able to demonst rate the same restra int and control over the growth of Government expenditure that Manitoba has been able to demonstrate, then we would not be faced with some of the problems we are faced with tod ay, including the GST. • (1 540) Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I would like to reference a couple of other areas where I think th ere ha s been a demonstration of the willingness of this Government to deal with issues th at far too long have go ne unheralded, undealt with, ignored if you will, but in fact can be dealt with without having to spend enormous amounts of dollars dealing with them. I would reference the Surface Rights Board. The Member for Virden (Mr. Findlay) I believe would concur with me that it has now become, rather than a source of aggravation, it has become a mitigating body which is what it was intended to do in the first place.

We have also seen within the area of rur al development the bringing together of a number of departments, parts of departments, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that have some affinity and have some usefulness to be lodged together under the administration of one Minister responsible for the rural parts of this province.

The Water Services Board which will have to deal with what is a continuing and ongoing problem, with the water sh ortage across this province; a boar d , a department that my Department of Environment has to interact with very often because the y are involved in co-engineering and in some cases co-funding of waste disposal projects across this province. An Honourable Member: How many want them? Mr. Cummings: While they were supplying a large number of agricultural projects with their expertise, they were rightly lodged with agricultur e.

Now that they are moving more and more into dealing with ur ban responsibilities in our small towns the y are rightly lodged with the Department of Rural Dev elopment, and they still handle the agricultural side of their respon

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-143
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 143.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f6318723ef28140c2ca0ed0a28ab4da0d0227bb1

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