1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT House of Assembly For the period: 3:00 p~m. - 6:00 p~m. Tuesday March 15, 1977

March 15, 1977 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape no. 950 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Page 1 - MS I am pleased to welcome to the House of Assembly four gentlemen from the Community Council of Point of Bay in the district of Exploits. They are the chairman of the council, Mr. Alfred Barnes, the vice-chairman, Mr. Nelson Anstey, the secretary, Mr. Robert Cole and two councillors, Mr. David Perry and Mr. Wilfred March. I know all bon. members join me in welcoming these gentlemen to the House of Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. MR. MURPHY: Mr.

Speaker, it is with a great feeling of personal regret and sorrow that I bring to the attention of the House todav the sudden passing of a verv fine gentleman, a man who was associated with this House of Assembly and with the Provincial Civil Service for many years in the person of Mr. Leonard P. Walsh. Mr. Walsh first joined the Government o£~ewfoundland in May,1930. He served - ~hrough various departments, Health and Welfare. In 1940 he went overseas and attained the rank of lieutenant.

On his return back he entered the Department of Justice, Sir, and became a magistrate and served in various parts of the Province. Since these days, Si~, I _ hi~ been personally acquainted with Mr. Walsh. He did serve as executive assistant in the Opposition office to Mr. Jim Greene, who was then Leader of the Opposition, and subsequently, Sir, to the hon. Speaker and to myself when we took over the Opposition office. Mr.

Walsh's background has been something of service all his life ~ii~~~~~!c'!~_!~ii-~otlrl:~ _Prov~c~-~ ~ His knowledge of the goings on and the happenings in this P.rovince perhaps was more extensive than anybody else, except perhaps the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) at this time. He came by his politicial acumen I would say legitimately,because of the fact that his father,who only the other day _

May 15, 1977 Tape no. 950 Page 2 - MS Mr. Murphy. ' · ~ ... his late father I should say .- mentioned by the hon. - ~s member for Twillingate (M.r. Smallwood) as· ,·one o·f the finest debaters as a member of the House of Assembly. He represented the district of Placentia East for many years faithfully. He had served very faithfully the jobs that we~e put for him, and at this time, Sir, when h~ was just about ready to go on pension, ,he ba..d served in the latter capacity as Hansard Historian. So I say, Mr.

Speaker, it is with a great amount of regret and pez::sonal feeiing that I bring to the House today the sad news that Len Walsh passed away su4denly last night. And I would like to extend to his brothers, who are surtiving, the deepest regre~s and sympathy of this han. Rouse. 2628

}'arch 15, 19 77 Tape 951 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. YR. S}'ALLHOOD: Mr. Speaker, for this side of the House I join in perfect agreement with the hon. minister in his references to the death of ¥r. Walsh. I knew him very well. We never did see eye to eye politically in a partisan way, in a party spirit, but we were "torarm, personal friends and for him I had great respect indeed. I had respect for his integrity. I had respect for his ability as a newspaper reporter.

He "tororked for I The Evening Telegram as a parliamentary reporter covering the meetings of this House for that newspaper and he did it so competently, so thoroughly, so objective!~, so accurately and so fairly that I was moved as Premier to write a letter to the editor of The Evening Telegram saying how much I personally,and I was sure all members on both sides of the House appreciated his objectivity and his accuracy as a reporter. I had known his father, the late lv.J.

Walsh. .And indeed,as the minister said,it was only the other day in my remarks here that I mentioned the late Billy Walsh,as he was known to all Newfoundland, as an eloquent orator, one of the most eloquent I have ever heard in this House. · The late Mr. Walsh was, as the minister has said, a I convinced and sincere supporter of the Progressive Conse~ative Party for which he worked voluntarily and also as an employee.

Notwith- standing that fact and my own knowledge of his ardent support of that party,! did not hesitate when a vacancy fell due here in this House for an Editor of Hansard, an Editor of Debates, and-notwithstanding some frowns on my side of the House,to recommend his appointment to the Internal Economy Commission,in which I had some influence as a Premier always does, and he was appointed and served competently until illness made it impossible for him to do so. I H~s father, Billy Walsh, was a Confederate. I visited him at his home near Devon Row and we had a long talk.

I was charmed and delighted to discover that Mr. Walsh,who at that time was the veteran politician of Newfoundland although Major Cashin was living andSir Richard Squires still alive, not much more than that, and Billy Walsh was Newfoundland's veteran politician and I was charmed and delighted indeed to learn from 2629 ..

March 15, 1977 Tape 951 IB-2 ~- . SMAIJ.. HOOD: him, from his own lips,that he was an ardent . Confederate and believed strongly in it indeed. Newfoundland has lost a good son, an able man, an honourable man, beset with sickness from time to time,but nevertheless always a straight shooter, an honourable man. And what more can you say? What better can you say of any man than that he was honourable, that he was a man " of principle, a man of conviction, that he adhered to his beliefs, his convictions through thick and thin in good times and bad?

I join with the hon. minister as we all do I am sure on this side of the House in our expression of deep regret at his passing. STATE¥ENTS BY MINISTERS: MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Fishe ·ries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I take this opportunity to advise the House that close to 300 delegates,more than half of them fishermen, will attend a two day Provincial Fisheries Conference which will get underway tomorrow at the Holiday Inn here in St. John's. -----·-- · - 2630

March 15,1977 Tape 952 AH-1 MR. WINSOR: The conference, Mr. Speaker, is the ·culmination of fifteen regional fisheries meetings that have been held around the Province during the past four or five months. Invitations have been extended to the conference to the ,._ -· ... . Federal Fisheries~ Marine Servi_ce ~_, ___ the __ ~o_l_~eg_e _of _ Fisher~es, Memorial University, Newfoundland Fisherman Food and Allied Workers Union, the fishing industry and other groups interested in -the fishing industry as well. At the conference, Mr.

Speaker, we hope to unvei.t;" some of the ___ .........,.._ programmes and policiea we have planned for the fishing industry in the future, as well as listen to comments of the people present,especially the fishermen,and to get their opinions on the various proposals. Guest speaker will be thl_! ?on. the Premier , who will address the delegates at a government sponsored dinner to be held Wednesday evening at the Holiday Inn. This conference, Mr.

Speaker, will consist mainly of a number of panels on which there will appear a number of distinguished Newfoundlanders and others as pane ist and, ,like I said ,we ·are giving the fishermen a chance to have some imput into the various discussions. The theme of the conference will be," Our Fisheries, Our Future." Registration, Sir, will start this evening at the Holiday Inn and tne conference will officially open on Wednesday morning, tomorrow morning at 9. 30 am. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Tlte hon. member for Fogo. MR. WINSOR: Mr.

Speaker, now that ~he minister· has come to the final or to the climax of the great number of meetings which he held during the past several mo~ths around the ··Island, and the fisherman are to congregate here tomorrow in great numbers, we on the opposition ' are very pleased and appreciate the minister's ---- - - - invitation to attend the conference. I do not know if we are going to have the opportunity to sit in as much of the conference as we would like to,because if the House is sitting, 2631.

__ J1a_r~h,_J5 ._191} __ . Tape 952 AR-2 MR. WINSOR: then of course that will take away a great many of our members on this side. And as you look around, Mr. Speaker, almost every member on this side of the House is represented in a fishery district .And that conference is going to be very important and it is one which I am sure we would all like to par-ticipate in.

However if that cannot be arranged then we ~-Till have to do the - . neJ~;t best thing,· and as many_o:f _1lS as_ possible will att~nd _the ___ ------··- conference. v7e appreciate the minister's kindness and I would assume that all of us will be there tomorrow night to enjoy some of the minister's hospitality and to meet some of our friends from each member's district. And by the way,we wish the conference nothing but success. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Ron. minister for Fisheries. ' MR. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to make a further announcement, Sir, regarding the fire that occured in Burnt Island, the fish plant there, owned_ 'and operated by Mr. Eric King whieh occured of course this morning. I want to inform the House that officials of the Department of Fisheries have left for Burnt Island to have discussions with Mr • . King and to do everything possible to assist him to get the -plan;--~~ck in ~peration. Also offic~al~ of the Federal Fisheries and Marine Services are visiting Burnt Island to discuss with Mr. King the possibility of using the herring plant to process --~!'~~<:l_~ish~ __ Mr.

King,I am told,is also planning to contact the Department of Regional Economic Expansion to see"· if it can obtain assistanc~ in rebuilding his plant. I I might also inform the House, Mr. Speaker, that the fire .-. ---------------- Z632

-· . March 1 s-~ 1977 Tape no. 953 NM- 1 MR. W. CARTER: also destroyed a small holding unit belonging to the Department ~f Fisheries but was used by fishermen in Burnt Island, Officials of the Department of Fisheries will be looking at the possibility of replacing that facility. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. CAPTAIN WINSOR: Mr. Speak~r, again speaking for this side of the House,we are certainly glad that the minister is taking the steps that he is and doing it promptly.

Because, Sir, the fire and the loss of the fish plant at Burnt Islands is a severe blow to the economy of that area and to the fishermen because this time of the year, Sir, is the fishermen's harvest.

This is the time of year when fishermen along that part of the coast make their harvest and now to be hit with such a blow as to loose thetr plant is nothing but a tragedy really. ~ So we would urge the minister to do everything possible within his power and to persuade the federal government to do whatever he feels should be done to get'some kind of a plant back there as soon as possible and get it in operation as quickly as it possibly can be done. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Fisheries. MR •. W. CARTER: __ Mr.

SpeakeriJ this appears to be the day of the Department of Fisheries for ministerial statement~,but I think that I should not let the occasion pass without making reference . ,..--.. - to a meeting that· .-was held in St. Anthony yesterdayiJ. attended by myself and by the bon. member for Lewisporte (Mr. F. White), as well ~s six representatives of the six major religious denominations iD the Province. I am very pro~d, Mr. Speaker~. ortlie ~~ct. that ' ~ the six major denominations. res_po~d~d to our call fo~ support and as expression of that support offered to have representatives 2633

March l'S", 1977 Tape no. 953 NM- 2 MR. W. CARTER: from their respective churches appear on the platform with us and to make known their respective stands with respect to the sealing hunt. The meeting, Mr. Speaker, was extremely well attended. I heard press reports saying 400,but in fact there were closer to 800 people in attendance and a lot of them of course were children who were let out of school for the occasion. Mr. Speaker, I met with the. clergy at ten o'clock in the morning, at which -time we discussed the meeting and the purpose for it and the strategy that would be adopted for the meeting.

I was contacted by the Royal Ce.nadian · Mounted Police early yesterday morning,who informed me that in light of certain events of the previous night that there was a potentially explosive situation developing in the area with respect to the impending departure to the ice fields of one Brian Davies. At the RCMP's request, Mr.

Spe&ker, I requested a meeting of the Newfoundlanders who were there to protest the other side, the people who were there _to support the continuation I ::_ . - - -. o.f_the sealing industry. · we· inet-=-ateieven - o'~"rock:. · · i t9o.k advantage --- - ·-- --- - ,-. -- -- - - --· -- - - of the opportunity to advise them that I felt that to take any action that would cause injury to Mr.

Davie~ ' or- any of his grouprr~uld only aid and abet his cause~ My advise •· ' ~o the group was to bite their tongues as it were and to swallow their pride and stick with it, not to do anyth~g that would have -- ~he-~ffect of making the .protesu groups look like martyrs. -That advise did not go down too well, Mr. Speaker, and I can understand why. It is not easy to take the kind of abuse that is being thrown at these people and to turn the other cheek.

At that time they were rather upset with the ROSition that I adopted.~~ I was informed, by the way, that the picket line that was put around the helicopters was illegal,and certainly as a Minister of the Crown, a member of this House, I could not cond~ne or encourage law breaking and I advised the group of 2634

March 15, 1977 Tape 954 PK - 1 Mr. W. Carter: that fact. The leader of the group,Mr. Roy Pilgrtm,later made certain statements to the news media to the effect that he thought maybe I was more on Mr. Davie~ side than on the side of the Newfoundland sealers, Wellthat kind of a comment is not worthy of any further explanation on my part ,·- except to say, Mr. Speaker, that the situation was explosive and I think to have continued the way. that they were planning on going would certainly have ended up' into a fiasco that would have been very, very much to Mr. Davies, benefit. At the meeting, Mr.

Speaker, there were in attendance not only 700 or 800 people from the area, but also press representing the news media from pretty well most countries in the world,! suppose, from Japan, from Australia, England, the U.S., : mainland, Canada, Switzerland, Norway, Germany, France. And the meeting,! might confess was,and my remarks were aimed pretty well directly at the visiting press,hoping that maybe having heard Newfoundland's side of the · sealing story that it would have the effect maybe of making them a little less harsh on the seal hunt and on our fell ow Newfoundlanders who take

part in it •. And I have reason to believe, Mr. Speaker, that maybe it did have that effect to some extent. I had the pleasure after of meeting some of the visiting international journalists who very willingly admitted that now that they .were ac~uainted with the Newfoundland side of the story that maybe things were not as they were painted to be by Mr. Davies, and the Green~eace and other groups that are protesting the seal hunt.

I am proud this morning to learn that the Newfoundland groups took my advice and did in fact allow the Davies 1 operation to ( become airborne, because,like I said, even though it is difficult sometimes to turn the other cheek, but I think to do otherwise would have been very, very much to the advantage of Mr. Davies, and it would have only meant that &e would have come back next year with 2635

March 15, 19 77 Tape 954 PK - 2 Mr. W. Carter: I that much more money to spend on the seal bunt,dr at least on the operation to prevent the seal hunt. So, Mr. Speaker, I want to publicly, Sir, thank the members of the clergy who took time ou~- - and who went to St. Anthony and who stood up and took a very, very strong stand for the Newfoundland sealers and for the sealing industry. And I want to thank as well the many hundreds of people in the St. Anthony area who: took time out to attend our meeting yesterday and to give us -- • - . - r ____ _ such 1 a rousing reception. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear , hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member from Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I just want to respond briefly , to what the minister has said. I had the pleasure and the opportunity ' to accompany the minister on the trip to St. Anthony, and it was certainly worth-while to say the least. We arrived in St. Anthony and; found that there was indeed a powder keg there ready to explode. -Mr. Brian Bavies had arrived shortly before we did, , In fact, some I violence had occurred but not very much~ We-- did not even bother to stop and went directly to the hotel. - And I have to commend the minister, Mr.

Speaker, on this; he did take the only action that could have been taken at that time, although it came in for some minor criticism from some of the people involved 1 . The situa~ion was . ( -----dangerous. I am sure that Mr. Davies set out to--provoke the people there. When he got off his helicopter, I am told the first things he talked about was,.

This is a black day in the history of Canada and you people ought to be ashamed of yourselves, and those kinds of things ,deliberately in my opinion.- --and in the opinion of journalists who were there,setting out to -provoke the sealers and the fishermen, . . 'knowing that if he could get a black eye or a broken leg or something like that then he would have a great cause to fight throughou~ the world. The meeting yesterday,as the minister said,was certainly worth-while despite some requests that the meeting be boycotted locally. It did not happen, and · Z636

March 15, 1977 Tape no. 955 Page 1 - MS Mr. White. there was a large crowd,particularly the journalists who all turned up, and I was very pleased with that. And I think, Mr. Speaker, this year you are going to see a different slant on the seal hunt from the international journalists : A lot of the people there are people from The Daily Mail in London and from The New York Times and people such as that,and ABC television in the United States had five people there. They expressed the view that they were here at the request of their editors to do an objective view on the seal hunt once and for ali.

And I get the feeling that the editors are not going to be sending those people back too many more times. And most of the journalists that I talked to, and I talked to a great deal, ·were not interested in being associated with Brian Davies, and they went out of their way to state that, and I am pleased abotit that. The only aspect from a negative point that I would mention, Mr. Speaker, is the lack of information with respect to t~e I seal hunt, and I do not know who can be blamed for it. The federal government did preparer~a b~oklet whi~h _ some of the prov~nc!al . officials distributed locally there.

But there were some questions asked about the number of pups on the ice and so on, and there was some controversy al:So~t that, and, you know, I know the federal government are responsible for tabulating the number of seal pups on th~ ice, and if they could come up with a better system to determine the exact number of seal pups before the hunt starts each year, a day or so before the hunt, to allay some of the fears of those people who are protesting, it might be very good. And I heard today on the radio, Mr.

Speaker - one final comment I heard today on the radio that the sealers are in the fat, and I hope they do well. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 2637 ·.

March 15 1977 , Tape no. 955 Page 2 - mw PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burin - Placentia West. MR.. CANNING: Mr. Speaker.- SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CANNING: - I rise to present a petition from 243 people from the settlements of Boat Harbour andBaineHarbour in the district of Burin - Placentia West and on behalf of the people in Fortune Bay. First of all,the House will notice how ' ' neighbourly we are up there, that one bay comes to the aid of the other. Mr.

Speaker, the prayer of the petition is for .the upgrading and subsequent paving of the highway,of the road from the Burin highway to Harbour Mille -and the communities of Jacques Fontaine, St. Bernard's, Bay L'Argent, Little Bay East, Little Harbour East and Harbour Mille • Mr. Speaker, apart from·being neighbourly my constituents have an interest there because the school children --- from Baine;Harbour and Boat Harbour - I. do not know the exact number, · .· but probably over a hundred of them ..:.;, -t -ravel -to ~ ~and froin-Bay ..

L 'A'iient . . ·----- ------ ----- - ---- -- - -- --- --· . - ' daily to school. Again,the doctor who serves the area is in Bay L'Argent; ~he_~ clergyman forfJ:~~ - ~e~_is in Bay L'Argent, , ~o there is quite a bit of going back and forth between the two areas. Mr. Speaker~ I heartily support the petition. I know the road well~ , Al:tno-ugh quite a lot of improvements have been --- ----- ----' made in recent years, ~!_ , still needs to be further improved, and I would hope that very soon it would be upgraded and paved to make this road as safe -as possibl~. Mr.

Speaker, in that area as in so many areas in Newfoundland tod~ where we have forty children in one bus, and anothe:r one behind with perhaps fifty in it, with so ~- -- many children in one vehicle; well we know the consequenc· ~s ,/_should there be a serious accident with so many children in one vehicle.· I heartily support the petition. I ask that it be received and tabled and referred to the department to which it relates -. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! Z638

March 15, 1977 Tape no. 955 Page 3 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bonavista North. Ma. CROSS: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition ~ this hon. House - HR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker - Order, please! I believe the hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) wishes to speak on a previous petition ·, so if the hon. member will allow? MR.. SD!MONS : I thank the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross) for yielding. - I just wanted to say a word in support of the petition, and to

preamble that by saying .how pleased we are to have our colleague, the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Canning) b.ack in the House. As member.s well know - I I 2639 f •

¥.arch 15, 1977 Tape 956 IB-1 SO~ HON. ~l"BERS: Hear,hear! }1P._. SD-1MONS: As bon. members will know he has been hosp:f.talized with a bout pneumonia, and he has recovere~ admirably and we are glad to see h:il!l. Mr. Speaker, he has spoken of the need for upgrading of the Boat Harbour-Baine Harbour road. I am sorry-the road to the area - · MR. CANNING: No, Fortune Bay. MR. S~ONS: Yes.Well I was mentioning in particular the petitioners, the need for upgrading of those · roa_~~ !>eiau~e _()f ;lie dependence on them, bus transportation and that kind of thing. I just wanted to rise to support the petition.

We had difficulty. Our colleague has been alo7ay so long he has forgotten how aggressive you have to be in this Rouse to be heard and we had some difficulty hearing some of the things · he - --- - . was saying~ Well, he _wil_l_ soc>t~ get:_ b_ack in_ th~ stride of thinjZ_~ _ The petition once again, ¥r. Speaker, draws attention to the need for a plan of action" ·in terms of road improvements, a plan of action that I believe must be somewhere on the books because we were told a -_ c_oup~~ ~ of years ago that it indeed was on the books, that thene was a five year plan to upgrade and pave •.

I believe the ¥inister of Transportation and Communications woul~ do the people of this Province, · and in particular the members of this Rouse,a oig favour if he would make public that particular plan of action, as I 'say a plan of action Which has been on the books for a couple of years if we are to take the word of the government,which I do. I would hope we could see that --- -- plan so we would not have to go through this ; _"~l:lsine _ss_ quit~ regularly. We would -know exa ctly where we stand.

We would know where these roads . - -- .. on the Burin Peninsula are in terms of tne government pr ior ities for upgrading and paving. So I would appeal to the minister to make that list public at the earliest possible opportunity. It must certainly exist. We cannot doubt them on that. It only r ema ins then to pull it out and let :us all have a good look at it. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Rear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Bonavista North. 2640 '•

March 15, 1977 Tape 956 IB-2 MR. CROSS: ~r. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition in the bon. House on behalf of 351 people of Dover.

The prayer of the petition reads, "The petition of the · residents of Dover in the Province of Newfoundland humbly showeth as follows: That the people whose names are subscribed to this petition are of full age of eighteen years or over and have resided in the community of Dover for one year or more; That the people whose names are subscribed are dissatisfied with the deplorable conditions of the educational facilities in the community of Dover; That the people of Dover whose names are subscribed to this petition desire that adequate funds be apportioned for the building of adequate educational facilities at Dover at the earlj _est possible date. '~our petitioners therefore humbly pray that the provincial government be pleased to see that monies are voted and appropriated to fulfill our humble desire.

Your petitioners as in duty bound will ever pray. Signed !A".arch 7, Dover, A.D. 1977." I can only say, Mr. Speaker, that I present this petition with a heart and a half, because I know of the school conditions that I exist in the community of Dover, that is the· primary and elementary school conditions. I have taken a first hand look at the situation and know the facts. I would say that inadequate is not the word to use in describing the facilities of the primary and elementary schools in Dover. I would say that totally outdated ~nd deplorable would be a little closer to the truth.

The main building was built without much planning, with space added as the need arose. Truly the building can be described as the -people describe it, a piece built on a piece on a p).ec~. The school -bas no art room, no music room, no•resource center or gymnasium. A child would have to wa~k to the Dover Senior High for gym classes 91osing iiistruct~on tim~, part of their recess period and sometimes part of their lunch -hour. The staff room there is a -narrow corridor serving as a general office, duplicating room, storage room and a library. 2641.

¥arch 15~1977 Tape No. 957 NM- 1 MR. CROSS: The special education"classroom is small, measuring twenty-one by ten feet •.. The . kindergarten class of fifty is using a room which is twenty-five by thirteen and a half. And I would have to explain here that this is twenty-five pupils in the morning and twenty-five pupils in the afternoon. So a class of fifty really using a class of twenty-five by thirteen and a half is not the best. · Heating is inadequate. The school is very drafty. The sewerage disposal is adequate and in excess of . 100 pupils are using two tiolet bowls. The electrical wiring is inadequate.

The building has been declared a fire hazard by the Gander f"ire -cliie£. That was three years ago, Mr. ~J'e.~~e~ :··· I do not believe that I need to say more. And I would ask that this petition be laid ~n the table of this hon. House and that it be referred to the department to which it relates. The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. ROtm: Mr. Speaker~ I would like on behalf of my colleagues to support the petition petition presented by the hon. member for Bonavista North (Mr.

Cross} on behalf of the -• '' • ~ ~ - r-- • 0 .. ' '""' , .,..., ' re~~~e~ts of Dover in tha; par_~i~ula~ __ e~ectoral district. . Lwas outside the House, Sir, when the member indicated how many people signed the petition, was it 350 people? MR. CROSS: .3"51-. -~ MR. ROWE: 350 people approximately, Sir. It is pretty easy, Sir, to enter into the realm' of debate in supporting such a petition.

However, just let the record stand that,. you know,it is pretty difficult to understand and realize that there are communities in the Province ~ f Newf oundland and Labrador today that have schools so outdated and in such a deplorable condition as described by the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Crosa). : It is very difficult to understand that we do have a primary and elementary school, so-called, using the word 2642

!-f.arch JS .__1977 Tape No. 957 MR. ROWE: very loosely, that has no art room, no music room, no gymna~ium, inadequate heating facilities and certainly inadequate sewerage facilities. These are the early and formative years for these students, Sir, and I think such things as art and music and gymnastics, or gym faci~ities are extremely important in the early formation of the minds and bodies of these school students. It must be very difficult indeed even to carry out the three R process under these existing conditions as described by the member for 'Bonavista North (Mr.

Cross),Sir, so the only thing that we hope far over NM- 2 on this side is that the minister will be able to make monies available to the :· school boards of this Province this year, , in particular to the school board that takes in Dover~and that we will see some improvement in these facilities, if not indeed the building of two new schools to replace . ·the two I believe existing building that- · appear by the member's description as being nothing ~o~e ~t~n barns. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hea.r! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member· for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I too want to say a few words_in -support of this petition from 350 residents in Dover,an _ area of which I am extremely familiar,and extremely familiar with the circumstances that are expressed in the petition : ·- this Province that we have many schools that are ·not conducive to the type of education that we would like to give our stude~ts today. And as I have said that Dover is among too many communities actually that have less than desirable faciliies.

And that is not to say that we have not made great progress in building educational facilities throughout the Province in the past number of years --- but_,Mr. Speaker, the 2643

.. Tape No. 957 NM - 3 MR. LUSH: sat! situation is that we still have students going to the kind of facilitiy that the hon. member so capably described and I certainly hope that in the next f~7 years that we can certainly rid of those facilities, particularly in the smaller communities in this Province that have schools without a proper heating system, without proper water and sewerage facilities,and I woUld hope that the government would certainly take . ' this to heart seriously,and hopefully in the next few years we will be able to"improve the facilities not only in Dover but in other areas throughout the Province. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! --- ------- -·- Z644

. -_ Ma_~ch -~,_!_2 7 7 Tape 958 AH-1 HR. SPEAKER: The bon. member Twillingate. MR.. Sl-f..ALU~OOD : Mr. Speaker, I was invited to that very school a few months ago to speak to the students and faculty and did so with great pleasure to myself if not to them. And I am very . hea_z:t~~Y =!-_n. _stJ.pP~rt _ ()-f _ _:___tlle contE!t1ti~n that trey deserv:e a better school building with more facilities than they have. Please, Mr. Speaker, let there be no misunderstanding or doubt as to my belief in the need for a better school than the one they have.

At the same time I continue to marvel over the fact that when'in any community in Newfoundland the people are dissatisfied with the quality of the school they have, they feel that it is to the government they ought to address a protest. As a matter of fact my understanding,unless the situation has changed greatly in the last five or six years, my.understanding is that all that the government does and can do is come to this House in the estimates and ask the House to authorize the government to pass sums of money over to the overall school authorit~es. ------ -----r---- ---~-· - - - - ~ - -- - -- . . . MR.

DOODY: The only thing changed is the amount of money. --------------------- --,.---t·. MR.

SMALLWOOD: The authorities used to be the Roman Catholic Denominational Authority and the .'_ ~g.l,i~~~ _and the· Uni.ted -Chu"i-Ch .. . - --·-·--·-·- ---- ·------------·-- and the Salvation Army·and the Pentecosta~~ Now I believe there has been some merging and you have perhaps two great rroviuce-wide MR. ·BOODY: Three MR.~ SMALLWOOD: Three, the> I~~egtat~d..__ the Roman Catholic and the Pentecostal~ And all that the government can do7 as I understand it>is pass money over to thos~ authorities and it is those authorities who .. and who alone . can decide where the money will be spent, on Which schools, in which settlements and in what amounts.

So that 1 in fact, when the people'of the community· as for example, the one in this petition today, send the petition saying that-they want a better school surely that petition ought, in fact,to go~to the --:----:----=--~ - - ---Integrated School Board ;i of - wh~; __ _l.s i !;? _ __ __ -What would be the name? ' 2645

March 15,19 77 Tape 958 AH-2 Mi. LUSH: Trinity, no I am sorry, Gander - MR. DOODY: Terra Nova. MR.. LUSH: Terra Nova. MR. SMALLWOOD: Terra Nova Integrated School Authority • It~s --4·-- they and they alone who can decide where the money they receive from the government shall be spent, and in what amounts and for what purposes. Well the purposes'must be as laid down,I suppose in the !ducation Act .. : They· cannot spend it on anything theY. like, it has got to be within the ambit of the act.

So is there any hope I wonder that the Newfoundland people will . ever · understand that it is to their school authorities-:· These _ _ _ authorities are the churches • Thefact that you have an integrated school board means only that one or two or three retigious denominations have merged, they are still church schools, are th~y not? Is not the school in Dover owned by the integrated churches? Are not the Pentecostal schtio s ownecf oy t .e Pent_ecost~!__ Church? Are not the Roman Catholic schools owned by the Roman Catholic Episcopal Corporation or whatever is the proper name of the organization?

And s~rely only they, not this House ,....., ~--------------~ AN RON. MEMBER: They are not - integrated. ---' MR. SMALLWOOD: - Not. the :government -------,------ . ----- MR.. MuRPHY: There is no p6litics . in that ' __ c_!l~:rcP.. .. _ 1 ~Joe~·- MR. SMALL~OD: -Not the government can decide. Surely it is those school authoritie~ • All the government can do is to see that more money goes to Dover • It becomes necessary for the government (

a) to give more money to the whole of the integrated school system and having done that they must also give it in the same proportion to the Anglican or to the Roman Catholic School Authority ·and also to the Pentecostal. 2646

. . March 15 ,_ !~?1 __ Tape 958 AH-3 SQh1E HON. MEMBERS : Hear, Hear: MR. SMALLWOOD: Either we are going to have nationalized public schools,in which case ·we can decide i~ this House here how much money will go to each individual school, either that or - -~e . .:...IJ.~.!! still going to leave it to the churches. Now, up to now the law says it is the churches .• So that while I am in sympathy with my hon. friend from Bonavista North and in sympathy With the request of those of his electorate ----- ---·---·- -. ·. ··, 2647

March 15, 1977 Tape 959 PK - 1 Mr. Smallwood: in common honesty I have to say it is a pity that Newfoundland people still petition this House for one individual school. I remember a Delegation coming to me from Stephenville one time and they wanted some money for their school, and I said, "Gentlemen I am greatly flattered, but since when did I become a bishop?" It was a Roman <!:atholic group and I saj.d, "Go to your bishop, do not· come to me. All we can do as a government is pass money over that the House of Assembly has authorized us to pass over to your overall Roman Catholic School Authority.

You do not come to a politician. We are not bishops and we are not priests and we , are not clergymen of any kina. Nevertheless I am.in hearty sympathy with that petition •. I think it has come to the wrong place because I I : was there,! met the people, they use4 to be great friends and supporters of mine. I built the road down there. And put a lot of things down there •. I; fact, probably the very school that they are complaining about · I put there, at least my administration put up the money to put it there. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN I MR. SPEAKER: The hou. Minister of Justice. MR.

HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the answer' to Question No. 206 on today's Order Paper asked by the hon. member from LaPoile {Mr. Neary). . .

This matter comes exclusively within the jurisdiction of th~ Government of Canada, and it is administered by the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, but it has been the subject matter of' discussion at Federal-Provincial meetings of Attorneys- .---, (..· ~----~- ___ ___.,A·--·~-···- ••-- ---------~ General.when.the views and the concern .of government has been made !_~ ___ _Jl known, indeed of all governments to the man responsible~ namely the Attorney General of Canada. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Public Works. MR. J. ·ROUSSEAU: Mr.

Speaker, the answer to Question No. 112 by ---"t the, member from LaPoile on the Order Paper of February 15, No' 135 j i by thi\'J same member on February 21, No. 136 py the same hon. gentleman on February ll, No. 137 by the same member on February 21, No. 145 by the same member on February 24, and No. 146 by same member on ,. Z648

March 15, 1977 Tape 959 PK -· 2 Mr. Rousseau: the Order Paper dated February 24, Question No. 150 by the same member on the Order Paper dated 25th. of February, the same member Question No. 167 on the Order Paper of March 1, Questinn No. 189 asked by the same member, the member from LaPoile on the Order Paper dated March 7, and finally in answer to Question No. 190 asked by the hon. member from LaPoile on the Order Paper dated March 7th. MR. SPEAKER: MR. J ·. DINN: . The bon. Minister ot· Municipal Affairs. -~ __: - -Mr.

Speaker, the ans~er to Question No. 97, the hon. member from LaPoile, it appeared in Orders of the Day dated February 14, 1977. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR.. A. MIJIUIHY: Mr. Speaker, Question No. 209 aSked by the bon. member from LaPoile.Who operates the restaurant concession at the Arts and Culture Centre St. John's~ And what are the terms of~ the concession'? I have not the least idea. I do not know .' who ·operates that or who that comes under. Tourism? AN RON. MEMBER: What.? MR. MURPHY: The concession at the Arts and Culture Centre in St. John's? MR. WHITE: Why do you not find out?

MR. MURPHY: Whyt I have enough work to do of my own without doing the work for the bon. member. jsilre _the least he can do is find . . l ___ .' .. out who operates what. He knows it all. MR." SPEAKER: Are there any further answers to questions? The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I have an answer that was asked by the han. member from · LaPoile on February 16. The names of - SOME RON. ' MEMBERS: · Oh, oh: MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, is there any way of controlling himself? MR. SPEAKER: Order; Z649

March 15, 1977 Tape 959 PK - 3 MR. DOODY: Thank you. This is an extremely important question, Sir, and it has earth-shattering significance. and I am sure the hon. member from LaPoile would hate to have · any of its impact wasted . when every body is breathelessly anticipating the answer. The names and members of the Classification Appeals Board? The .Chairman is Dr. D. R. Facie-Crowther, the members are W. F. Haynes, F. c. Anderson, Esau Thoms, and Dr. Susan McCorquodale. The. second part of the question was the date of appointment?

These people li~re - - ~ppo_inted . under Order-in-council dated March 25, 1976 • The tenure pf office - ~hey were re-appointed to the Classification Appeal Board for a period of up to March 31, 1977 when it will be reviewd again. 26;:.0

March 15, 1977, Tape 960, Page 1 -- apb MR. DOODY: Were appointments made after prior consultation with the Newfoundland Association of Public Employees? The answer in four of the five is no. Was there unanimous agreement between Treasury Board and Nape concerning all the appointments? Once again, no. At the initial establishment of the board NAPE was not consulted. It was not then the policy of government. However a vacancy existed on the board in August - ~~p;_~b~~ of 1975 and NAPE was assured that one of its nominees would be ~p~~inted.

On September 8, 1975 NAPE provided the Chairman of the Classification Appeal Board with the names of three nominees and Dr. McCorquoda_l_e __ _ was appointed by the Order-in-Council of 1975 dated October 3. Then it also says, "Table correspondence between the Department of Finance and/or Treasury Board and NAPE in con~ection with the - ------ --- ··- -- - --a ppointments to Classification Ap eal Boa ;:_~~q_ _J_ ~i; ll _re~q _alL-.--- - -- that correspondence also if it is - ah 1 I will not. I will not waste the House's time. Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.

ORAL QUESTIONS: MR·~ SPEAKER: The bon• the member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Justice, arising out of the activities at St~ Anthony ( yesterday and this morning. Was it necessary for the B..C.M.P. to read the Riot Actt If so, what comprises a situati .on where the : officers of the Crown have to read the Riot Act? It is something that we are not very familiar with in this Province. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a report from Ch1.ef ) Superintendent Farr whic:h says, "Cpntrary to media reports a proel~~~~on uDder

section 68 of the Criminal Code of Canada was not made. MR. SPEAKER: CAPT. WINSOR: A supplementary by the original questioner. In the - ~ightnow of the protection given to Br-ian-Da.v1es-ancf his staff and officials there, would there be any protection for the sealers at the hunt .should a critical situation 2651.

March 15, 1977, Tape 960, Page 2 -- apb CAPT. WINSOR: arise? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I really have to answer that question without prejudice.because the bon. gentleman is asking me about a matter that comes not within my jurisdiction. I The R.C.M.P. under the provincial contract or a certain number thereof, a certain percentage thereof, are responsible for maintaining law and order within the Province or certainly' that part· of the Province _o~_t_s_ide the City ~of St. John's.

I only know what I have read with respect to what transpire~-- at the hunt, outside the limit _. But there I understand the fisheries officers who have been sworn - I had a note here somewhere - have certain capacities, certain law enforcement capacit~es under ~p~r~priate federal legislation and do enforce these regulations at the hunt.

C_E!rtainly I have never heard of R.C.M.P. officers under the provincial contract either at the frot:lt - or there has been from time to time problems in- the Gulf off the Magdalen Islands - I have not heard of R.C.M.P. off~cers who are part of any-provincial contract being involved outside there. But certainly within the Province the R. C .M.P. I under their contract, have the authority. Yes, Mr. Speaker,

section 36 of the Fisheries Act apparently gives - or regulations - gives . fisheries officers certain rights and responsibilities. That is under the federal Act and I presume they do it. But that not being under my purview is pure absolute speculation on my part.· I really do not know what they do out there. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. . CAPT. WINSOR:. Mr.. Speaker, this can become very complicated I know, but should the situation arise - now we have i--Briaii Davies. A lot of-his off~icials-down -there--are not .. - -- - - ~ - Canadians ~ where does our jurisdictional control - we have a 200 mile limit now. Does the Provincial Minister of Justice have 2652

_ Marc_!ll5....!.._1977, Tape 960, Page 3 -- apb CAPT WINSOR: any control or any say as to who prosecutes or what helicopters can operate within that zone or within that limit? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: No, Mr. Speaker, I am afraid I do not. And that is one of the - the ho'!l. gentleman has heard me raise this issue in the House before and it is a matter of concern to provincial Attorney's General as to their prosecutorial role. under federal Statutes.. There is no question at all that under the Criminal Code of Canada, for breaches of that Code 26!;)3

March 15, 1977 Tape no. 961 Page 1 - MS Mr. Hickman. within a Province, we have the sole and exclusive responsibility as Provincial Attorneys General to enforce the criminal law.

But the Parliament of Canada, particularly during the past few years, has been showing an inclination to take matters that would annear to fall - and I emphasize the word, appear - appear to fall within criminal jurisdiction and putting them in other legislation, the Narcotics Act, the Combines Investigation Act, oh, several pieces of legislation such as that, and that removes from us, not only controli but it has been made very clear to us that we do not have the right to know. For instance, there are no files in my department on narcotics cases.Unless and until a person is convicted then we see them.

And I would suggest in answer to the hon. gentleman for Fogo's question with respect to the enforcement of the 200 mile limit and anything that occurs off our shores that is the exclusive responsibility of the Government of Canada, and hopefully - and what I have read in the paper indicates to me, and heard through the media - they intend to do just that. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary by the hon. gentleman for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: A supplementary to the Minister of Justice, Mr. Speaker.

The minister indicated that he had a report from Superintende~t Farr of the - ~-I wonder if he could indicate to the House how many RCMP officers are in St. An~hony at the moment in view of the fact that on Friday I think there were only eight or nine there? And I wonder if he could tell . us bow many are there at the moment? And whether or not there was any violence there this morning when Mr. Davies left by . ~~~raft . . to go out'? I havB~heard some stories that the sealers had to be parted or somet~in~ to permit him to go through. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. HI~Jrn: Mr.

Speaker, on Friday,March 11th there were eleven RCMP Dfficers. These were part of or attached to the St. Anthony detachment. Z654

March 15, 1977 Tape no. 961 Page 2 - MS Mr. Hickman. Between then and yesterday additional RCMP officers were sent, an additional twenty-nine, including one commissioned officer was sent there. Then yesterday when it became very obvious that there might be a breach or a serious breach of the peace, the Commanding Officerof the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in the Province ordered that additional men be sent ·there, and I believe - if I can see the figure here now. I want to be very accurate on this - therewas an additional sixty men brought to the scene. And they are still there as far as I know.

I have not received any report - the last report I have was around noon today and up to that point there had _ been absolutely no - MR .. WHITE: MR. ltECKMAN: MR. MURPHY! MR.. HICKMAN: There are one hundred. There are about ninety, I think, all told. Twenty- nine and sixty. Yes. But it is between ninety and one hundred. and that there bad been no breach of the peace and no violence or anything.

And I might . add fpr the benefit of hon .. gentlemen, because I am asked this question from time to time, the decision as to how many men are needed in any part of this Province for the purpose of maintaining law and order is one that is the responsibility o~ th~ -coDiiiiaiiclliig-Officer -of the Roy~l c;nadian -- ·- --- ~ --- - - - -· -· - - -· . - - MOunted Police or in St. John's or the Chief of :-Police of the _L.. ________ , __ ~ ---- ;. Newfoundland Constabulary. And in my opinion they being _.-- · - - --- professional people are the ones who are competent to make these decisions.

And I hope they will continue to maintain law and order ln what both the hon. gentleman for Lewisporte (Mr. White} and . - -- --i,. the hon~ Minister of Fisheries indicated was a rather explosiv~ situation yesterday. ' MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: A question for the Minister of Mines and Energy, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister tell us whether Eastcan or otther 2655

March 15, 1977 Tape no. 961 Page 3 - MS Mr. Strachan. exploration companies have suggested changes in the oil and gas regulations and whether the minister is taking these suggestions into consideration? MR.. SPEAKER: The bon: minister .of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I take any suggestions that come my way from oil companies or anybody else very seriously and I have them under consideration. MR. STRACHAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. STRACHAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary.

Could the minister tell us whether Eastcan has asked for any concessions either in the regulations or in any · - further developmental work or projects in exchange for acceptance of these regulations? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. PECKFORD: The concerns of the companies are ~~ thi_s _poin _!: __ in time confidential to the government, to the Department of Mines and Energy. At such time as we issue the regulatio~ we will be indicating the concerns that the · co~anies hav_~- made_to_us -~d_th~- ~ government's position relative to those suggestions. MR.. STRACHAN: MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary. ---------- --~--- -·------ Z656 --

.. March 15, 1977 Tape 962 IB-1 MR.. STRACHAN : Mr. Speaker, could the minister tell us whether Eastcan has a~k~d for any concessions to be made ·to them in return for their guarantee to continue drilling this Summer? · MR. SPEAKER: The hon. 'Hinister of }fines and Energy. MR. PECKFOPJ): I cannot answer that question at the present time, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. _MR. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact, Sir, that Brian Davies I is very skillful in public relations and has to a certain extent conned the peopl~ of Newfoundlana and Labrador into; certain activities that might cast a bad reflection ~pon the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, would the minister consider draf~ing a resolution that could be brought into this House condemning the words and the actions of one Brian Davies and have this reso'rution brought into the House without debate and passed unanimously by the House supporting the action of the sealers and fishermen of Ne~rroundland in condemn~ng the actions of one Brian Davies so that they know we are all behind them.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR •. HICKMAN: I cannot obviously speak for the government on that. It does have a great deal of merit and I am sure that if the hon. gentleman for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) and my colleague, the bon. Minister of Fisheries, would meet behind the, curtafl:l after) that maybe they can find a wording that would be'satisfactory to the House.

May I correct one - the figure that had been asked as to the number of p~licemen, as of this morning, ~Brch 15, there were a total of -nfn~ty-five police officers~: I mean ninety-five members of the __ __::____ -- ~ -··- ·-. - - Royal Cana-dian Mounte(Polie· ·:as of this morning, March 15 at St. -, .. Anthony. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay ft'Espoir followed by the bon. member for Windsor-Buchans and Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. SIMMONS : ¥.r. Speaker, I had some questions for the Premier but he seems to have slipped out. So I will hold these in abeyance for the

¥~reb 15, 1977 Tape 962 IB-2 MR. SD1MONS: time being. But I did want to ask the President of Treasury Board a question. I wonder would he just indicate what the latest news is insofar as the Waterford situation is concerned? ~. SPEAKEP_: The hon. Minister of Finance. ~-· DOODY: The situation at Waterford is as it was at the last report. There has been no change. We have made, as I had indicated to the House a few days ago,' a further offer to the unit which apparently was not well received. We have not had any counter proposal from them. We are hoping to. We would like to hear from them obviously.

We would like to get the thing settled away. That is in relation to the strike. With relation to the Waterford situation itself we have been , assured by the administration and by the board, by the medical staff and so on that the standard of patient care is excellent, that things are well under ~~ntrol'in there, that the morale of the staff and of the volunteers and of the constabulary and the other people who are working and looking after the 400 patients is excellent. And the conditions at the Waterford Hospital are in tiptop shape as far as we understand right now. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. -----MR.

SIMMONS: A ~upplemen~ary to .the minister, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if he would indicate whether the government or Treasury Board ·has contemplated intervening in the strike or bringing an end to it? Is it· at that point in time? MR.

DOODY: The·people at the unit at Waterford are on a legal strike_ which they elected unde r t-he ir- pwn: rights to take. ' '-~ --·--- - I do not think it is right for government to comtemplate legislation or intervention of the - I presume that is the type of intervention that . . the hon. member meant rather than the conciliation or mediation or what have you which has -been ongoing and which has been offered. There are conciliation boards. There are conciliation officers. The hori. minister himself and myself and others have spoken directly to the 2658

lo1'.arch 15, 1977 Tape 962 IB-3 MR. DOODY: executive and to the negotiating people from NAPE~ As for direct government intervention through this House or through some law I think that would be most unfortunate and most inopp~rt?ne and I do not think that it would be. in the spirit of the best interests of the Trade-Labour Movement. Naturally if it comes to a point where patient - r • • - care is _ 1-Jnpe!ilJ.~~ at .a:ny ~ .~_ime'~--. ~~ thfi! _ adminis~~ation~ if the medical authorities or the people on whom we have to depend for advice let us have the impression or the idea that the safety and well-being of the people, the patients ·- ----------· 2659

-~_arc~_lA, 1977 Tape No. 96·3 MR. DOODY: at the Waterford is in any danger, that the conditions in there are deteriorating then certainly we will have to reconsider the situation. Right now as I. say it is a legal strike, everything is going along according to law. The Constabulary are_workipg well. The hospital staff are workin~well and the people of -the NAPE unit are on a legal strike and that is where the situation stands. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

The House, as most of us will know, was on a standby of sorts for two or three weekends, I believe in relatiolt to the Waterford NM- 1 situation. In -view of that would the minister indicate whether or not legislation to end this strike had been drafted and therefore is available should the need arise? The hon .. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: There is no need for legislation to be drafted, Sir.

If the bon. member would look at the Elollective a resolution can be brought· before the House in the even that a strike is considered to bef_nc~;_J.!l. th~ public interest, and not in the public: safety. _ But_~~~Y------'-----· _ ___________ _ ----- --~"1 I • the l.egislation~~-~J!'e~y there.T~;''is available if the House needs it and> as I say, it.~~ _c._-:rta~ii!Y~~~,t the policy of this government to interfere with the rights of _a __ _ labour union when it is on ~ 1egal strike and behaving and doing things i~ a legal way.

It may be the policy of other partiCular pai!ties, ·it ce:ttainly is not the policy of thia Part)?-:--·. '-~---- -~·--·-·" If it becomes-, as I say, in the public: interest t;'jten-this government I -·· ··- will have absolutely no'·hesitation in taking the necessary / steps to ensure the public safety. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. Z660

_ M_ar~h_15_ , ~~?.!_ ___ _ Tape No. 963 NM- 2 -MR. FLIGHT: · Mr. Speaker, this question to the hon. Minister of Transportation . and Communications. Approximately three weeks ago, February 23rd., I asked a question of the minister with regards to the intention of American Smelting and Refining Company's indicating they are closing down.their railroad and transferring their shipments of ore to Botwood by the Buchans - Badger Highroad.

The answer indicated that - so that the answer to the quest~on will be;.. we_ are contacting the company concerned at Buchans to determine what their plans are and hopefully arranging ameeting with CNR to arrange a rate which they may find economical to them as a mining company,and retain their present means of shipping ore on rail instead of going to the road. Would . the minister advise the House as to any results that have come from any meetings held for this purpose up to this point? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker ,~~re- liave .. been no meetings to date held with the major carrier involved, in this case CNR, based on the fact that we have not received a definite indication from the company concerned and the contacts have been made with the mining company at B~chans. We have not received a definite indication from the company concerned, ·the iU~lng -~-- -- _-_-_---~~ - · company>that they are intending to divert the movement of their ore fro~ ~uchans.:i; . from rail onto road.

But once we do get · a definite indication from them and the reasons given for the diversion we will then arrange to contact 'tb; ~j~~-· -=-=~ carrier,concerned, ~this case the CNR,and hopefully a~~~~~~ ­ with them-to- 'iive the company at Buchans a more economical and more feasible rate with regards to rail rate if this ·-~~ _the major factor from t~eir __ c~~n~e- ~ve!" -from rail~to-r~ad-.--·----- Z661

March_JS, J977 Tape No. 963 MR. SPEAKER: A-supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Am I to understand that the minister is not aware that Asarco, American Smelting and Refining Company, have publicly stated their intention, named a tentative - - - - -- - - - - - . - - date and notified the employees concerned that will be affec~~~ ~ f their intention to close down the Buchans Railroad and transport the ore by Buchans - Badger Highroad on to Bishop's Falls by road. Is the minister not aware of that situation'Z NM- 3 MR:. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Transportation and Communicatio~~· MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I am indeed quite surprised that the - ~ -~o~a~fha.s __ cone that because approximately two· weeks ago the Director of Transportation, in the Department of Transportation and Communications made contact witht I forget the name of the gent-leman, a senior man :f.il - .t ~ e m__i~ing - companj ~at -Buc_hans and asked . - him to give us the details _of_ any planned change. And -to the best of my . knowledge' as of today, ,_ w~ haye --~.?.t: r eceive-d an~-----~==---·-=-=--=-- . . . ' tAdication, either in writing or orally or otherwise from the company concerned that they do intend to change.

So I am quite · surprised that.:tb".;~. i~~~ny_~a!!f_c;_l_lQse~ . to make a public statement on the matter. MR.. FLIGHT: One more supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: One further supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: By way of

preamble, Sir, I would _ iridicate to the House that it is a fact, Asarco have declared in writing to their employees their intention of closing _ their -railr~ad _ op ;~~-tio~, . Millertown Junction to Buchans and tzansfer their ore c·on an effective - ~-~,r - J ~ - date., ;-The date escapes me. , -:.,__ __ h -• - • •• ---- .. - .--- - - - --- - -- 2662

}!arch 15, 1977 Tape 964 IB-1 MR. FLIGHT: I think it. was the first of June but I can verify that for the minister later today. So in vi~~ of that, now that we are aware, now that I am aware of the fact that they do indeed intend to close their railroa~ - and by the way, Mr.

Speaker, it will take six round trips per day to transport the ore from Buchans to Botwood - now in view of that and in view of the fact the company has state ·d their definite intentions, has the Department of Transportation determined yet or can they determine before· that effective date as to whether or not the roadbed is capable o{ handling the type of loads that we are about to see go on it. I am thinking mainly of the Buchan~-Badger _ ~ighroad. It is very badly deteriorated right now. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR. MOR~: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I earlier expressed in this Assembly the concern of this administration with regards to the movement of bulk shipments over the Trans-Canada Highway. I referred then to the situation involving Bowaters at .Corner Brook whereby they are now shipping their pulp all ~he way from the Glenwood area to Corner Brook by road. --~~------·--r The '§fo:;_~~a_t_e ___ thing about the whole matter is the fact that ·we have, in attempts to negotiate with CNR and to help the .

CNR and Bowaters come to some kind of an agreement with regards to ~ail rates, that the company concerned could not reach an .agreement with the CNR~ which is the major carrier, to a point where they could get a rate that was found by them to be feasible and eeonomical and satisfactory.

In other words, the company concerned, Bowaters, as an example, found that trucking would be a·more feasible .mode of transport to them than rail because of the hi:gh· rail rates.·· S~ ~ t~e company at Buchans, 'the mining company, is now going to definitely plan to.move their goods from rail ~o road, it means that we will have to again intervene. And that is all we can do as a Province, intervene between the ·major carrier which is responsible to the federal government, the CNR,and to try a~d have CNR reduce their rates to the point where they ar~ sati~f~Ct_oq~~ to the mining company.

Now I know the mining company is using part of their own facilities, but the major Z663

March 15, 19 77 Tape 964 IB-2 MR. MORGAN: ··- carrier will be CNR • .

If this cannot be reached there is only one alternate mo~~'- one altern~te me~n~_ ~nd _t~~-~ is for - or solution I should say-is for ~~ ! _ as a P~ovince, to again make representations to the ~inistry of Transport in Ottawa which we have been doing -practically every month to increase the subsidization that is being paid to the rail freight activity in this Province so they can arrange - and I am talking about the CNR rail freight activity - to reduce the freight rates that are being charged in this Province in particular with regard to bulk shipments. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Baie ~erte-White Bay. ~.

RIDEOUT: }fr. Speaker, I have a question for the Hinister of Health, and I ~.rould refer him to a statement made by his office, I believe it was March 8, · relative to - the ·abuse of Medicare in the Province. -·-----The ministe£in his statement said regulations were recently issued which would permit the Commission to charge patients directly for medically unnecessary services. I wonder if the minister could give us some details of those regulations, some explanation of exactly~~ the regulations are and how your department intends to implement ~~~~~ regulations. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Health. member just said. It gives the Medicar~ Commission, not the department, ~!!~~_/the Medi~are Commission the authority to collect from patients who have received medical services unnecessarily. MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. RIDEOUT: · Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the- I know it is not the minister's department ~ut ; I assume the Medicare will answer to his department - I wonder if the minister could tell us how the Commission intends going about determining whether or not an abuse occurred, ,_ - -- whether the onus will be only on the patient or if there will be some onus on the medical practitioner himself? How will the exact determination ---- --- - of ab~s~, in ·facE .. if uy has occurred, how will that be assessed? · MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Health. 2664

March 15, 1977 Tape 964 IB-3 MR. COLLINS: ~r. Speaker, I am not a technician and I am not an accountant. The Medicare Commission have been. given the authority to bring about some improvement in terms of the }!edicare plan. And as I said in the closing

section of that statement, it is incumbent, I think, upon all of us in Newfoundland to realize that if there are abuses or overservicing to the extent which the report Which the . Medicare Commission gave to me some time ago would indicate, then it is incumbent upon me- as the minister and upon all Newfoundlanders to ensure that the Medicare Programme is not abused any f urther than is , 2665

March 15, 1977, Tape 965, Page 1 -- apb MR. H. COLLINS: possible to control. Otherwise we all know what the implications are. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I realize all the things the minister is not, but I wonder would he undertake to lay before the House a copy of those regulations so that at least we could have a look at them? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Eagle River followed by the bon. the member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir. MR.. STRACHAN: A question for my old friend the Minister of Tourism. AN RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. STRACHAN : I think his- first one.

Could the minister tell us what criteria he uses in setting the boundaries of the open and closed management zones~ And whether if his department created a mistake or an error in setting these boundaries he would consider changing these boundaries? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I will have to take the first part of the question under advisement. I think I woul d have to say to the second one that if it is shown very clearly that there was a mistake in setting the boundaries, surely,~e would be flexible enough to entertain any suggestion of change.

However, in saying that I am not conceding that there has been any error. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. STRACHAN: Could the minister or would the minister agree that the changing of _the --Red· W!~~ Ri!_ei ~in- Labrado-r: ) _nt.o ·_the open zone, the now open zone, would be such a change which .. hls -departnient - ------- ,_ -- - -- made considering it had made an error. That river was the only river ~?i~h- hu~~ ~~~ could use to get into the Red Wine Mountains where the caribou herd was. In changing that that was in error previously held within a closed zone. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Tourism.

MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, until I have an opportunity to check that out I think I had better take the Fifth Amendment. Z666

March 15, 1977. Tape 965 Page 2 apb. MR.STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with the answer and I wish to debate it on the Late Show~ MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for BuEgeo -Bay d'Espoir followed by the hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR.SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the bon. the Premier. He was out of the House last week when the subject of the out of court settlement to J.G. Bailey of Baie Verte arose. I would hope he is familiar with that settlement. It was a settlement by Lab Liner to Mr. Bailey's firm for· a contract that was not honoured and Mr.

Bailey's firm took Lab Liner to court and subsequently there was an out of court settlement approximating $250,000. I would ask the Premier first of all if he is m1are of that and at what point he first became aware of that particular out of court se~tlement or in particular when he first became aware of the dilemma that Mr. Bailey was in as -a result of the breach of contract by Labrador Linerboard 1 MR. SPEAKER: Ron. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: The answer is, Mr. Speaker, that last week was the first I was aware of that particular contract. I have had a preliminary look at what happened.

I have been assured by those people who are concerned that whilst it was an unfortunate situation:, the_ - ~aiice~ad ... ~~?!.. the _ con~ract, that in fact there was no great rip off attached. 'Ptere._was apparently a great deal of money lost~by Mr. Bailey himself as well as by Linerboard Mill. As I say at this time I really do• not have enough·:·detail on it to answer the question,probably as fully as the hon. member would like, b\lt when I get it I will gladly pass it on. MR. SPEAKER: A Supplementary. MR.. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, my information is that the Premier had occasion - ---- - ---- - -- --- \__ ~ to talk to Mr. Bailey about this between the time that,l his contra~t was called off and the time of a settlement. Would the Premier confirm that he indeed did have a telephone conversation with Mr. Bailey concerning this particular subject. PREMIER MOORES: To my knowledge Mr. Speaker, I have never met Mr. Bailey. MR. SIMMONS: By telephone. PREMIER MOORES: No, to my knowledge I have never talked to the gentleman by 2667

March 15, 1977 Tape no. 965 Page 3 - Premier Moores. telephone. My memory may be in error but I certainly do not remember any call With Mr. Bailey. MR. SPEAKER: A suppiementary. MR. SU11'10NS: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary. My !~ormation is that the Premier met with Mr. Bailey to discuss this matter. MR. SPEAKER: -- ·-- Order, please! I must dra~..r the hen. gentleman 1 s attention to two factors.

One. that on=. ma. _~onl?" state such facts as are nec~ss_ary _for the question but specifically I am refexrr-ing to the rule that no hen. member may impugn"the accuracy of information conveyed to the House by a minister. I draw that to his attention and ask him to rephrase his question. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you. Would the Premier then confirm or deny ' that he met with Mr. Bailey and discussed this particular item with Mr ~ Bailey? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would suggest the hen. gentleman's rephrasing of the question still ~ 2668

March 15, 1977 Tape no. 966 Page 1 - ~ff-1 Mr. Speaker. leaves it within the ambit of the rule referred to in Beauchesne, page 148 to the effect that, "No hon. member in asking a question may tmpugn the accuracy of information conveyed to the House by a minister." MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Well again, Mr.

Speaker, there is no attempt here to fmpugn the Premier's honesty on the matter, but I would ask him if he would refresh his memory on the subject and probably check with his appointment's calendar and then inform the House as to whether he indeed did meet with Mr. Bailey concerning this matter. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will gladly do it.' But as I said before, I honestly do not recall having met with him, and : I will check and see if I did. But irrespective of if I had and if there had been any discussion, any meaningful discussion, Mr.

Speaker, I would ~ve remembered it, but absolutely not. I do not know where the hon. member· got his source of information from. Maybe he would like to say, because I generally am not sure of what he is talking about. MR. SIMMONS: A :_ ~pp_!~entary, Mr. Speaker. MR.~ SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: I cannot

preamble. I will talk to the Premier . probably outside and give him the information I have. Will the Premier indicate whether he in anyway had any input into the ultimate decision to pay Mr. Bailey an out of court settlement ~P~%.:~i~ati.Dg~~400, OOO'l MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the answer is absolutely not, because I do not even remember - not the out of court settlement - I do not even remember Mr. Bailey. And I would like, Mr. Speaker, not to remember the member if that was possible. 2669

March 15, 1977 Tape no. 966 Page 2- mw ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I understand that the bon. Minister of Fisheries and the bon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde __ (Hr. Rowe) have had a quiet meeting behind the curtain, and they crave the indulgence of the House to be able to-introduce · a motion relating to a gentleman named Davies without having to give the required notice, and to have the,resolution passed without any debate thereon which I gather requires unanimous consent. MR.

SPEAKER: Does the House grant unanimous consent, number one, for the motion to be presented without the usual twenty-four hours notice, and that it be voted on without debate? MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member. MR. SMALLWOOD: Can we first hear it? MR. SPEAKER: If somebody will read the motion. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I, in line with the suggestion put forward by my friend,the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe), I move, seconded by the hon. member for Lewisporte (Mr-.

White) that this House unanimously condemn the actions and insulting statements of one Brian Davies and others who are engaged in attempting to destroy the Newfoundland sealing industry. And we f~ther move that the hon. House reaffirm its support of the sealing industry and extend our best wishes to our fellow Newfoundlanders I who are presently engaged in the seal hunt. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Is the House ready for the question? Those in favour "aye." Contrary "nay." I declare the motion carried. MR. HICKMAN: MR. SPEAKER: Order'2.

Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Legislative Disabilities Act." (Bill No. 6). - -~- --------

March 15, 1977 Tape no. 966 Page 3 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR.. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the bill itself is verv straightforward, and the doctrine of res ipsa loquitur I would suggest applies. The position is that under

Section 15 of the Legislative Disabilities Act, "Any person being a qualified and registered medical or dental practitioner, who is not a full-time employee of the Government of Newfoundland, is entitled to received remuneration from the Crown directly or indirectly and not have to forfeit his or her seat in the legislature. I have . forgotten when that amendment came in but it was, ! ,suspect, before I was elected to this hon. House in 1966. But it is obvious as to the reason for it, that under - I guess it was at the time of the dental health plan, which was in the early 1960's or late 1950's - in order for dentists

March 15, 1977 Tape 967 PK- 1 Mr. Hickman: to receive remuneration or doctors under MCP this amendment to The Legislative Disabilities Act (Bill No. 6) was necessary. That, Mr. Speaker, only covers the majority of doctors and dentists, ,but I think all dentists except one in Newfoundland practice independently. We have one hon. member, the member from Mount Scio (Dr. R. Winsor) who is a dentist but this new bill does not apply to him because he is already covered under

Section 15 of the old Act. I believe there is only one -

Section 15 of the old Act it is in the explanatory note - it says "Any person being a qualified and registered medical or dental practitioner performing the professional services for and accepting remuneration fnum .... - - ---- --- any public department, institution, Board, Commission or other constituted public body provided that in any of the cases mentioned in this paragraph the medical or dental practitioner is not employed exclusively and for his whole time upon the work mentioned in this paragraph, and occupies the position of an independent medical l or dental practitioner." So obviously as all doctors and all dentists in Newfoundland receive money from government departments t~s piece of legislation was necessary some time ago.

Now we have a situation, Mr. Speaker, where we have doctors as opposed to dentists, ~dical doctors who are employees of the Crown on a full-time basis, namely those who work in cottage hospitals and those who ar~ dist~ct medical officers. And in that category we have one very illustrious member of this House and that is the hon. g~ntleman from Exploits (Dr. :I!Womey) who was elected to the Bouse last year, and under the Law at the e~d of the , expiration six months from the date of the return of the writ he was compelled to cease and desist receiving any further monies from the Crown for medical services.

And this he has done. If ever there was a man in Newfoundland elected to a Bouse with a clear mandate from • . the voters as to what they wanted done with the Legislative Disabilities Act (Bill No. 6) it was the hon. gentleman from Exploits -

March 15, 1977 Tape 967 PK - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.. HICKMAN: - who the first time around was not as definitive as he should have been in saying to his people who, I think, I can say they not only look up to him as one of Newfoundland's outstanding medical doctors, but it almost reaches the stage where they worship him in the area that he has been serving for so long - how long doctor? DR • . TWOMEY: Twenty-seven years. MR. HICKMAN: Twenty-seven _~~rs ~ · Tw~~t Y-seven consecutive years.

I think, he has been practicing medicine as a servant of the Crown for approximatley thirty years but I understand he had the very good fortunate as all doctors should have in onetime serving along the South Coast on the Lady Anderson. That in my opinion should . be compulsory .for all doctors, all dentists, all politicians, and , , if we have not got a Lady Anderson now,which we have not, I am sure that we can find one, in fact I will have a word with the hon. Minister of Tourism. SOME HON. MEMBERs:·- Oh, oh! MR.. HICKMAN: .

No but I was thinking about another ship, another geeat ship.,- a sailing ship that could sail along the South Coast. MR.. HICKMAN: In any event, Mr.

Speaker, if I may get back to the bill-, and I realize I was wandering and I was very mucb out of t J .= ... / ---- order, I shall not do it again- this bill takes care of the situation I -' / where - and th~ only member ~f this House that is covered right now by it is. the hon. member from Exploits (Dr.' Twomey) who is a district medical officer tn the Botwood area, and certainly when this House is nat in session-obviously when this House is in sess·ion he is ' . /./ .· . ,. . ·--1 . not entitled to nor should he . receive remunerations from the Crown for medi~al services - bu~: when this House finally adjourns in the _/ hot Summer days of July, and we all go about our business, and the people of Exploits)and in particular the people of the Botwood area) want the learned and lovable and competent docto~ the hon. member from Exploits,to meet his commitment that they extracted from him

March 15, 1977 Tape 967 PK - 3 Mr. Hickman: so forcibly and effectively in the recent by-election, they want him to practice medicine and so he should. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have to confess to an oversight on my part, I learned this as a young lawyer that confess and avoid is an extremely proper approach in matters like this, last :year - AN RON. MEMBER: It was good for the soul. MR. ·HICKMAN: It is good for the soul, it is good for the teaching profession, it is good for everyone. AN BON. MEMBER: You are good at it. MR. BieRMAN : ADd I am. good at it. Well the hon. member, well no I will not single out members, the Newfoundland Teachers' Association asked last year if. Z674 ·.

Tape 968 AH-1 MR. RICKMAN: the act would be amended to permit teachers who are members of the Rouse of Assembly and who are employees of the school board to receive remuneration from that board when the House is not in session.

I had to confess that it was not a matter of any great policy decision on the part of the government~ that by the time _I got around to giving it any serious thought this House had adjourned.But the matter is still with us and it was brought to my attention by one hon. gentleman of the teaching profession~who sits opposite, __ _ ~-- -there are_ several~but one hon. gentleman brought .. ------ -- - it to me,and there will be as part of this bill, _ :-~ind~_~ _hav~ _ t:!!~ distributed to hon. members opposite a copy of an amendment in committee which will form part of the bill,which provides that any employee of a school board who is employed during the . period when the assembly is not sitting -;-this would enable ----- teachers,for instance~ I suggest~ I wopild hope that the teaching __ ;:..._:_ _____ --- ------- profession get the occasional request to _c!~ -~'!!>- ~t:!_t_'l!_te -~-~~~ing__ when the House is on.-session and anyway that provision will be contained in the act.

There are two others '. One is an

interpretation provision ?nly which says any· member, maybe I had better read it to the House now so we will know what we are debating; Subsection 8 of

Section 3 of the Legislative Disabilities Act is repealed and the following substituted~ quote;

(8) Any member of a school board within the meaning of the Schools Act, or any member of a hospital board ~~~ within the meaning of the Hospitals Act 1971 (8

A) any employee of a school board who is employed during the period when the assembly is net : s!~~n~;-~~-c! three (SB) any person appointed to the Board of Regents of the Memo~ial University of Newfoundland '' who is employed during the period when the assembly is not . sitting. · Eight is purely a housekeeping technical amend~ent because 2675

March 15,1977---- ------ Tape ·968 AH-2 MR.. HICKMAN : under the p~esent act school boards are referred - - - . - to as boards of education,whereas under the . Schoo~s ~~they are now referred to as school boards;And _again it used to be boards of health and now under the _llosp;i.ta_l _s_ Act they are referred to as hospital boards. There is no significance to that at all. (SAl is the one that is designed .to permit and will enable members of the teaching profession when the House is not in sittitlg to receive remuneration and be employed by school boards in the Province. Because , ~I.

Speaker, the Legislative -- -Disabilities - ~~-~'"-and I. am sure the hon. member gentleman from Twillingate who has brought in so many of these amendments is far more familiar than I am with the act , but under section (2) of the act it is provided that a person elected to the House of Assembly sha11 not receive any profit ·. or emolument from or under the government of' the Province or from any legislature or from any board or public body, the members -whe~~o( .. are appointed by the government.

That is the reason why the amendment is necessary because school boards are appointed br the Lieutenant-Governor · in CounciL true · on the recommendation of their particulardenomt~~~~on. ·----- .

Memorial University, the other provision deals with Memorial University,and there it is more to clear up almost a diffe~ence of opinion between solicitors .;Hi- understanding is that Memorial University professors, · we h~ve one or more in the House now,have been granted leave of absence and have been able to sit in the House.,and if they wish to receive remuneration for teaching when the House is not in session it ~as been interpreted that they have been entitled so to do ~ ~ai think that they are right and I think that they have been entitled.

But there is a conflicting opinion from a solicitor who advises Memorial University,indicating that because the Board of 2676

. ----- . ~rc_h_!L].977_ Tape 968 AH-3 MR. HICKMAN: Regents are appointed by government,~herefore the Board of Regents falls within the category or the definition as set forth in

section 2 of the Legislative Disabilities Act. I do not think they do,but in case they do this last one (8B) is designed to clarify any possible difference of opinion or would ask the hon. gentlemen if in debating this bill if we could debate it"not only as to the clause that is presently ---------------------~~==~---------- ... i 2677

March 15 , 1977 Tape No. 969 NM- 1 MR. HICKMAN: -: contained in the bill. that has been circulated, but also the amendment which will be put to the Committee in Committee,and which will form part of the bill if passed by this bon. House,as being one and the same and probably should have been included in the bill., a reprinted bill, but the effect is the same. I move the second reading. MR. SPEAKER?. (DR. COLLINS): The hen. member for Burge-Bay d'Espoir. MR.. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, the minister in introducing the bill has referred quite properly to the member for Exploits· (Dr.

Twomey), the member "that it would directly effect at ::this particular time,and he has made us aware also that in Committee we will have the proposed amendment relating to teachers, and other employees of school boards. Well of course it is well known that I was involved in th~ teaching profession. There are a dozen or so in the House, the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross), the member for Humber Valley (Mr. House), the member for Baie Verte- White Bay (Mr. Rid;~~~~)~the member for Trinity- Bay de Verde OMr. Rowe); the member for Stephenyille (Mr.

McNeil) at one time taught. I must be missing others but were some of the people who in one form or another were involved in the teaching profession, the member for Menihek (Mr. Rousseau), I should not forget,and perhaps others that r have missed as I have gone al.ong. . . ' MR. RIDEOUT: \B_ot:~~vista North too. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, the member for Bonavista North J_ h~~- meationed. The Minister of Mines and Energy ,of course I should not forget at all,because he and I had the privilege of work~ng together for two or three years on the same sChool staff.

The point I want to make, Mr.- Speaker, having heard the minister talk about the amendment as it affects the member for Exploits and as it will affect teachers, one is placed in an awkward position~ I am particularly as a former teacher and perhaps a future teacher once the electorate take care of me here~ You cannot help but wonder out loud though whether 2678

March 15 ,. 1977 Tape 969 JM -2 MR. SIMMONS: this is a'me-too'act or a 'to-me' act. It is certainly designed for the latter but it could have some advantages for the former. Whether it is a'me-too' act, Mr. Speaker, or a 'to-me'act, the fact is that we are here debating today whether or not to allow a member of this House, a member who is elected by a decisive majority nearly a year ago, allow him to legally receive remuneration in respect of his office as a MHA. That is what it amounts to. It is unfortunate that this was not done before · the event. My comments are not at all aimed at the member for Exploits.

He knows very well,as I took time to say it when I addressed myself to the Address and Reply, the amendment, took time to say in what high esteem I hold him and still do. I want to make a comment about this whole Legislativ 'e Disabilities Act. We now have an example where after the fact we are asked to make an amendment which will take care of -a situation retroactively. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that the Legislative Disabilities Act and the Conflict of Interest Legislation needs a new look.

Someone needs to sit down,and it is not the people - · well ) perhaps it is the people. in -'Justice-but what I started ---- _ _;/ / - ) - to say it that it is not the drafters as ~uch because as I understand it they are given instruction as to what govermnent would , __ 1~~ to ·have in the legislation and then they just put it into the right words. I will come back · to that.

Before it gets to the drafting stage .I would hope that somebody would sit down and' reth:fiik this-- · ....._ _ ., ... _ whole business of Conflict of Interest Legislation and the Legislative Disabilities Act because in answer to the Minister of Public Works the two are more related than perhaps ·;~;1t~~the eye at first glance. We had an example not too long ago 'with . . . . . J the gentleman sitting next to the member for Exploits, the member for Kilbride as he now is, where he was representing government .....----- ---- ------- -· in a European loan situation; ----·---- -- :. MR. ..

WELL: That is not correct. ·' MR. SIMMONS: The information is to that effect, but I am glad to hear that that is not the case. Z6?9

March 15,. 1977 Tape 969 JM- 3 MR. WELLS: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. The member for Kilbride did not represent the government, but represented the· Europen underwriters who require as part of the thing an opinion from a solicitor in Canada. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, the minister now that he reminds me, of course, is only right but it triggers 2680

March 15, 1977 Tape.no. 970 Page 1 - mw Mr. Siunnons. my memory on the verv point and helps reinforce what I am about to say about the conflict of interest situation. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): Order, please! The hon. member made an explanation so I do not think I need make any ruling in terms of the point of privilege. The hon. member. MR. SIMMONS: But it does, Mr.

Speaker, raise questions .- n_ot_ at all about the member's integrity, I am not suggesting that for a second- ~ut _it does raise questions about whether a sitting member of this House should be allowed, permitted under law, to do business with the government in a matter of such large financial magnitude. It raises questions for me, and I believe that that is just one of many examples we could raise on the subject. I would like to see a complete look at ,, the legislative disabilities.

I think this ~~iecem~al · -_ business, this patch approach, this patch~ork approach,is going to take care of the particular problem as it affects the member for Exploits (Dr.Twomey), and I believe we on ~h{s _s.ide of the House are going to be most happy to accommodate the present situation. But it goes deeper than that. And I would like to see government delegate · some body or bodies to take a~- finet ?othed comb look at:, _l eg~s~~t:~.!~ __ ?-_i~a~i~_i:;_i~_~ _!~gisi~~i~n --- - and conflict of interest legislation. You see, Mr.

Speaker, there is another group that we have not yet mentioned but which needs mentioning. There is that whole band of people in the civil service. Now. some of them are senior people who advise government on matters of policy, deputy ministers, and directG~s of . various divisions and a whole category to be spelled out. But by and large, Mr. Speaker» the mass of people in the civil service and in Crown corporations, in quasi public service, should have the opportunity to participate more fully in the electoral process, indeed should be allowed · to stand as candidates for of,fice.

Now some of them on the periphery of the civil service, for example, people in district ~ 268:1

March 15, 1977 Tape no. 970 Page 2 - MS Mr.. Simmons. vocational schools have either gone and gotten leave or else taken the chance, and they have run for office, and as I say, usually taking a chance. But these people should not do it in some second-class way where they have the. hope that everything is going to work out for them. They should do it under law.

They should do it because the law says, '~ou are as first-class if you are a typist in the Department of Health if you want to run for office or want to get out and lick envelopes or otherwise lick stamps or otherwise get involved in the activities of a political organization, be it the Progressive Conservative or the Li~eral or the NDP, you name it." These people should be as free. Now the fact is, Mr.

Speaker, they are not nearly as free., Indeed I have information which has come to me as a result of the past by-elections, the past three by-elections,where employees of Newfou~dland Hydro had some very specific instructions from a politician, very specific instructions. And the instructions, Mr. Speaker, were that you should not get involved, not get involved in the political process ,. Now I am not talking about as candidates. even.

I am talking about attendance at meetings and being publicly associated or even associated with a political party in the activity of preparing circulars and just being a party worker. They had direct instructions, Mr. Speaker, the N.ewfoundland Hydro people did during the last by~ct~ons n~.t to get -i~.Y9J.yed. _~- _ Now, Mr. Speaker, these instructions came from the a minister of the administration, the same administration, when their coll~agues were in Opposition, that said that they were going to bust her wide open when they got in. MR.. ROBERTS : Hear, hear! MR.

SIMMONS: They were going to see to it that every citizen of this Province were able to exercise their democratic rights in terms of being party workers or in terms of being candidates, the whole bit, Mr .• Speaker. They were going to open her wide up. Instead 2682

March 15, 1977 Tape no. 970 Page 3 - mw Mr • Simmons • of that, Mr. Speaker, instead of that they have closed her up. They passed the word down the line, including in writing, Mr. Speaker, in case somebody doubts the word - and I ·will produce one of those days. I would do it today were I not here~ were I -where the 'information is. I have it in wri~ng, Mr. Speaker, an instruction •. · I have not read 'it for six or seven months so the wording escapes me.- But the essence of it, Mr. Speaker, is pretty clear. I do not know if there are any implied threats. There probably were not.

That would be unfair and perhaps untrue to suggest that. But , you 'know, when somebody sits down and writes a memorandum which says, "Do not get involved," they got a reason for doing it. And you ask why? Where is the • legislation? 2683

March 15, 1977 Tape 971 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons : There is no legislation that prevents involvement, but if you get a very strong hint, particularly a hint on paper, about what you should or should not do - MR. NOLAN: Or even by word of l!Duth. MR. SIMMONS: Or even by word of mouth, for instance, Oh well, Mr. Speaker, that opens a complete can of worms.

Because talking -about the district of Exploits, the stories that we could tell, we who followed the - I wish the Minister of Industrial and Rural Development were here now, because I would rather say this in his presence than in his absence, -~ but those of us who went into Phillips Read - Phillips Read? - the member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr.

Flight) and I happened to go into Phillips Head and happened to follow the minister and the candidate for the district there by two or three hours, we happened to arrive just after, and the conversation that was quoted to us, that transpired between the minister and an individual there about his chances of obtaining financial assistance for a piece of equipment staggered the ~nd, Mr.

Speaker. ---------- I dhas been referred to, I am not divulgin~ anything particularly . , ( ··-""'·. '- ------ ---·- ·new, because I think the Leader of the Opposition had access to the same information in a separate conversa~ion with that gentleman. , But the intimidation, Mr.

Speaker, the . outright inttmddation that went on on that ocassion just staggers the mind that it cou14 happen in our systen, that such outright open intimidation 1ri the presence of witnesses for the sake of a vote,that it could go on in Newfound- land, in Canad~, in a Western democracy, in 197 6 as it was • The- member from Windsor-Buchans knows what I am talking about. It' just staggers 1 the mind to l!ealize that you live in a .} ....... _ ~-- ~ situation like tha~. AN BON. MEMBER: We all do it. MR.. SIMMONS : Now, Mr. Speaker, that is just one example, and there are many others of what price •;votes.

If that is the price of them I do not want to have any. And I believe I speak for most people in this House. 2684

March 15, 1977 Tape 971 PK - 2 SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: What price votes? What price election? I am sure,knowing the integrity and the reputation of the member from Exploits (Dr. Twomey),! am sure that if he heard that conversation he would have rejected it. I am sure that it was safd behind his back because that, Mr. Speaker, you know, words escape you because you cannot imagin~ that kind of intimidation going on where the ballot is supposed to be secret, where a man . is supposed to be able to use his own free judgment -. ' I --- - -- -·- ..

My God~we were supposed to have gotten away with that - or not only gotten away with it, but done away with that here seventy, eighty years ago. Imagine the gall to suggest to a fellow that his chances : at qualifying for government funding depended on his political persuasion or ' h~ he exercised his.franchise. Or imagine ··-------·---- -- --- - - the ·situation that I brought out in the House a year or so ago, Mr.

Speaker, on the same subject, and ! ' have ag~n correspondence on this particular one, . where · a senior political appointment of one of the department's of government leaned pretty heavily, and I have it in writing,leaned pretty heavily, Mr. Speaker; just before the September,l975 election which we will all remember, leaned pretty heavily on a group of people that were applying for government funding. -------, ~~ Many may ask Why do we need legislation?

Whr do not _./ ( .' .· these people out ther e·, those typists in the departments~or I will ' call them junior, what I mean is not senior, not civil servants at the policy influence level, you know, what is wrong wi.th a girl . ,------.:.... ,--- who types in the, Provincial Building in Grand Falls, : what is wrong I ...____;" L _____ , with her fri -her spare time exercising her democratic freedom to be involved in . a political party? What is wrong with it?

Why can we not hav~ in the appropriate legislation something which says directly, openly to these people, _we-'want you to participate and here is your ;· •authority. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am essentially making the same speech that those guys now in government made when they were over here about ~ 2685 ·- .

March 15, 1977 Tape 97l PK - 3 Mr. Simmons: how they were going to open her wide open, they were going to see to it that everybody in this Province had the opportunity. And what are they doing instead? Intimidation! Intimidation, Mr. Speaker. Telling Hydro people to watch their P's and Q's, not to get involved; telling a man who wants government funding, Be careful how you exercise your franchise; telling a group that ·- ' had-its tentative application approved for government funding to watch their public profile before an election or the funding would be cut off,as .., . ~ 2686

~arch 15, 1977. · Tape 972 RH - 1 MR. SIM¥0NS: it was by the way. I make a plea, Mr. Speaker, - I am sure I share the views of all my colleagues on this side of the House and I believe most of the people in this House, most of the members of .this Rouse - I make a plea for legislation which affirms what surely is a basic democratic right,which affirms that whether you work with Newfoundland Hydro or with Newfoundland and Labrador Housing or with any department of government for that matter, you have the same right, not only in theory, ~Hr. Speaker, . but in practice, to get out there and become actively involved.

Now what I am saying is not particularly new, Mr. Speaker. It has been tested. Indeed it has been tested by people in the Premier's office; people who hold some very senior positions, Yr. Speaker, have been given leave as recently as the last provincial election. MR. F •. WHITE: Dave Butler. }ffi. SIMMONS: Mr. Dave Butler was given leave, was he not? MR. WHITE: Yes~ he worked here three weeks. Carried- the Premier's coat. MR.. SIMMONS : Mr. Dave Butler was given leave for three weeks during the last campaign.

Secretaries, ; I believe, in the Premier's L ---·· .' office - at least one in the Premier's office was given leave for three weeks to go out and work actively on the campaign. Now, Mr. Speaker, you cannot make - MR. S~~LWOOD: Would the hon. gentleman yield for a moment? I ¥.R. SIMMONS: .;_Sure, of course. }~ .

S~~LWOOD: lVhen the clerks or officials in the office of . the Premier or:'.if any minister of the Crown is given permission, a leave of absence for a week or ~o or three or four in the course of a general or any other election, is that only to operate in the interest of the party · that is in power at the moment or would the ~ame right be given to go and -.;rork for the other party? I mean,if 2687

Narch 15, 1977. Tape 972 RH- 2 MR. S}~ALLWOOD : not, why not? }ffi.. S D~ONS : Yes, exactly, yes. Of course the former Premier, the member from Twillingate,all too well makes the point that I am making, that it is chalk for one and cheese for the other. That the reason the Rydro people were given a warning, ¥r. Speaker, is not because that politician had any suspicion they were go:f.ng to get out and help the Tories. Oh no, that was not the reason. The reason was because it was a well known fact that the persons that that memorandum was aimed at ~o1ere known supporters of the Liberal Party.

At the risk of getting them fired, Mr. Speaker, let me say that they worked very effect .ively for us anyway. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: · Indeed I will tell the member for Exploits(Dr. Twomey) that if he will check his polls, one set of polls which last time he lost - he lost it just a bit more heavily this time - and it is in no small measure the results of some Hydro workers who put in a . real effortdesp i te a written instruction or written suggestion, I ---·- -- --· ' should say, , that they not get involved. The member for Twillfngate(Mr. Smallwood), Mr.

Speaker, capsules very well in his question the nature of this problem~' Let us stop making chalk of one and cheese of the other. Let us practice in government what we preached in Opposition - what they preached in Opposition. Let us open her up now, Mr. Speaker, and make it democratic -~ not only in law,because the law in effect says now that people may participate fully. ---··---AN BON. MEMBER: L~t us do awa~ _wit~ t~~~c:!_ now. MR. SIMMONS: But let us make it more positi~let us affirm the ---- --- right in print. Now you may want, Mr.

Speaker, I would be the· first to concede that you may want to spell out a category of people who 2688

¥arch 15, 1977. Tape 972 FH- 3 }ffi.. SIMMONS: should not,while they hold office, while they hold a point of office - I am _thinking of a deputy-minister,for example - you may want to spell out legislation that says that this category of persons, because of the tenderness of the post, the intimacy, the intimate acquaintance with government policy, their influence on government policy, you might want to say that group should not while they hold"_ ~ppoi~ti~«: offJc~, run for elective office.

In other words, they could have the option they now have - resign if you feel strongly you want to run as a candidate, by all means resign. That is possible because I could see that some senior people, very much involved in the policy evolution, the policy development of government,would have difficulty working after the fact.

If, for example, a deputy minister ran for elective office, was defeated, and then th~ next morning had to walk back into his office and relate to the minister,who happens to be a member of the other party, the government party,as opposed to, say, the non-government party which I he ran as a candidate for. Now I can see that that would create particular problems. But there is no earthly . reason why, Mr. Speaker, ninety~five, ninety-eight per cent of the civil service and the ------ ----- · ---- ---·--· at all why these --------- ---- -- Z689

March 15, 1977 TApe 973 MR. SIMMONS: p~op !e should not have the right in fact,as they do now theoretically although they are being intimidated on every occasion- no reason why they should not have the right in fact and in law, in positively stated · law- no reason why they should not have the full right to participate as party workers and/or indeed as candidates for any political party, be it the party in power or some other party. -) Now I make a strong plea, Mr.

Speaker, to those on - . the government side who when theywe~e in_opposition espoused the - very thing I am espousing right now; They preached it up and down this country, Mr. Speaker, that they were going to change that, that they were going to do away with this nonsense whereby a man, because he was a junior employee of a department of gove~en_t~. · could not have his full right as a democratic citizen. They were going to do away with that, Mr. Speaker. Well, look at the · ·- · . recorD. Look at what happened in Exploits to the Hydro people.

Look at what happened in Exploits to the man who was looking for government funding. Look what happened in another part of this province during the general election of 1975 and, Mr. Speaker, that particular case I documented very well and I have an affidavit in my possession which will attest to what I am saying on that particular subject. I do not think we need the aff!davit because the minister concerned knows full well what I am talking about as do othermembers of this House. JM- 1 Now, Mr. Speaker, that is a disgraceful, a deSpicable situation for this day and age in which we live. This amendment, Mr.

Speaker, together with the amendment of which the minister has given notice he will introduce in committee, goes part way • 0 • • to doing what has to be done when it comes to the legislative disabilities legislation. I say it goes part way,because it makes being elected to the House available to more people. Now the doctors who are receiving remuneration from the government, now 2690

¥.arch 15, 1977 Tape 973 JM- 2 MR.. SIMMONS : the teachers, members of the Board of Regents, those people are not debarred from sitting once these amendments -go- through their proper procedure in this House. But, Mr. Speaker, there are other people too who are effectively being prev~nted from being members of the House of Assembly. A part of it is the monetary problem,but that is really another issue and as much as I woUld like to go into it,,it is not an issue for today, for this particular amendment. But there are people, Mr.

Speaker, in other ways who are being effectively prevented, some of the more ordinary people. I am not thinking particul _arly of doctors and lawyers and teachers and profession people generally,as we sometimes call them. But this legislation has to be opened up. After all,the intent of the legislation surely- surely the intent of the ~~gislatiye . Disabilities Act is to guard against any abuses of the .system. That is what it · is there for.

It is not meant to be restrictive in terms of making public office available to people, whether dentists or doctors or teachers, ;_ ~ll~ ~ - is not the purpose of the legislation,or lumbermen,or loggers or fishermen or plumbers. It is not to debar people. But the effect of it as we are finding . now with the amendment that will affect the member for Exploits, the effect of the legislation is that it does indeed debar people, as we are showing. If the law were being strictly enforced the member for Exploits would not have run. Not that he was ~or allowed to run. There is nothing wrong with running.

He is perfectly within the legalities there,but he would not be allowed to receive remuneration. I would think if):i-easury Board is observing the_ let~er of the law up until this minute they have not paid him any remuneration. MR. WHITE: That is what he said in the statemel}t. MR. SIMMONS: The minister said that,I believe. Dfd the minister indicate as much? MR. WHITE: Yes •. 2691.

March 15, 1977 Tape 973 JM- 3 ~. HIClO"'ft..N: Six months in office - six months since the return of the writ. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, right, yes. Again the point I ~ke is that it is too bad we need this kind of an amendment. I am saying now that today it is a doctor, tomorrow it could be a plumber, tomorrow it could be somebody else who in a way that we cannot conceive now is affected in just the same way -that the member for Exploits has been affected.

I say the way around that is not the piecemeal approach,and we have no ob3ection to tidying up this one and I believe my colleagues and I will be voting for it, That is not our point at all. We are making the larger point that the need is certainly demonstwated once again today for . . 2692

March 15, 1977 Tape no. 974 Page 1 - mw Mr. Simmons • somebody to be delegated by government to have a very close look at the whole legislative disabilities legislation. Open her wide up so that plumbers and loggers and fishermen and civil servants can have the same access to this House that we are now giving doctors and dentists and teachers. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.. HICKMAN: (Inaudible) • MR. SIMMONS: The minister again misses part of what I have said. _You see,in normal circumstances we would not need this legislation on account of a doctor.

It so happens that the doctor concerned is receiving other remuneration from the public treasury. Now I cannot, Mr. Speaker, because I am not at al~ knowing, I cannot conceive,I say to the Minister of Justice , I cannot conceive of the set of circumstances where a plumber would be placed in the same situation,or a logger or a fisherman. B~~ the~~ ~y - well be, if you had a situation where one of these categories of people were receiving somehow - I do not know how - some remuneration ------ _& ____ _ from the provincial government, J.!ie -proviii'Ci&l -treas~!'Y ,_in __ s.ome _ - form or another.

That is what I am saying. So instead of something very specific like this addressing itself to a doctor or a dentist or a member of the Board of Regents at Memorial or a member of a hospital board in Corner Brook or a member of a school board in Bay d 7Espoir, instead of that, why do we not look at the larger problem, Mr. Speaker.

Why do we not say, '~ok, this act is not to restrict people, not to stop people from becoming members of the House, but rather it is to stop abuses. r: So let us address ourself t:o the abuses that could arise so that a person is not receiving at both hands from government as· it were.'~ Let us do away with that abuse. I do not know about doing away with it,· but let us make it difficult to abuse -the use of public money in that ~ay. And at the same time, Mr. Speaker, let us leave it 2693

March 15, 1977 Tape no. 974 Page 2 - mw wide open in terms of who may sit in this House.Because this - private club approach, Mr. Speaker, that we have here now, where if you are a lawyer and can commute between your office and Confederation Building, between your office and the House of Assembly, it is okay. Let us do away with this privileged membership status. I exaggerate to ~ke my point, but I believe the point is a very valid . one, Mr. Speaker.

Let us once and for all open it up so that every member, every qualified citizen of this Province, no ma~~er what his professional category, no matter what his job description, no matter where he lives in this Province, let us put our money where our mouth is. Let us really once and for all say what we have been pretending all along,that every citizen of this Province can be a member of the House of Assembly at least insofar as law is concerned. Now there are other things that you got to do. You got to get yourself elected and that . kind of thing. But that is another quintal of fish, another set of details.

MR.·. WHITE: That is the hardest part. MR. SOOIONS: But in terms of law, Mr. Speaker, let us see to it once and for all that all people in this Province have the same access to sitting here, wpether you are a fisherman, or a teacher, or a logger, or a doctor, no matter what your job description may be. And I say to members of this House, and to you, Mr.

Speaker, that the Legislative Disabilities Act right now has the potential to prevent people, particularly people in the civil service - my God, I say, the pote ntia l • bas. then rY"f ea pof.eiitia.l"-to-preverit- a person- • f • in the civi~ service who by ~~rtue ,; of the fact he is receiving remuneration, for example,has the very real potential to discourage ~or, to obviate, to rule out his even thinking about running for elective office. There is a double pronged problem there, Mr. Speaker, i~ _ _! _ _!laY come back to the civil servant just for a moment. There is the business of running for. office.

That one needs, to be ironed out. 2694

March 15, 1977 Tape no. 974 Page 3 - mw Mr. Simmons. You would have to spell out categories of people probably,or those who should not be allowed to run while they are still employed. But there is the other category of -pro~~em_,__!r.-Sp~~ker,_ about who can get actively involved in the workings of·a political party. Is it only a person who is a Mr. Dave Butler? I~ it only a person who is a secretary in the Premier's office, because she happens to want to work for the 11rightn party? Or should it not be a secretary in some other.office,or perhaps in the Premier's office who wants to work for the Opposition.

The word I am getting is that more and more people close to the Premier want to work for the other party. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 2695

Tape 975 AH-1 MR. SIMMONS: - And- we welcome them ~ Indeed-~-- Mr. Speaker, I have news for the Premier,if he is within hearing of my voice; some of them are working for us now • MR. SIMMONS : Ah, Mr. Speaker , as the minister knows,my sources are usually fairly reliable.-- MR. SIMMONS: And the - - ---·------- ---~- MR. SIMMONS: Last week, Mr. Speaker, the business of the Labrador Linerboard is an example where my sources were very reliable. The minister had no choice, but the very next 'day come out and confirm that what I said was true about the out of court settlement. MR.

PECKFORD: It was public knowledge,boy. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker~ the minister of Mines and Energy says it was public knawledge. It may be,but his colleague the Minister of Finance did not know anything about it or so he told the House last week. MR. DOODY: Not the details. MR. PECKFORD: Do not be silly, do not be silly. MR. SIMMONS: We will try not to be silly, Mr. Speaker~ but the company somewha~ ~9-~I:..O.'QJises me at times. It is difficult, Mr. Speaker. SOME.HON MEMBERS: Oh ....... .I ... #- MR. SIMMONS: Ah, Mr. Speake~, I know .I have hit a nerve but we have sources, we have people working for us., Mr.

Speaker, who -----· -·-------- - ------ ---- do no-t have leave of absence. They are working for us {alm~~~-d~y_________ ' an~ night. Sometimes they have to. phone at night because they .: · ... are afraid that if they phoned during the day they.might compromise themselves. But: my phone is listed, Mr. Speaker, and they know where to find it, they use it fairly often and the result is we 2696

Tape 975 AH-2 MR. SIMMONS: get a fair amount of fairly re~iable information. Some of it needs to be checked out, but that· is par- fo_r_ the ~- course. What needs to be checked out we do not use the next . day,~-Te use the following aay-:· Beca~s e if you wait the second night you will get a call fr~m a second secretary,or a second civil servant,who will either confirm or contradict the information yuu got the first night. It is a good network, Mr. Speaker, and it works very effectively and I would like to publically thank all those people who have been giving us so much help. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

DOODY: YC?_~ ___ t_le_e_d_~ll the help vou can get. MR. SIMMONS: I am like the Minister of Finance.I do need all the help I can get and· I receive it rather gladly in the hope of getting more, Mr. Speaker, and so far our sources have not I been cut of. I realize that this aft_ernoon I have put the ministers more on guar~-~~or-_ example, Mr. Speaker, talking about public knowledge and the role of the civil servant.One would think for example, Mr. Speaker, that an issue such as the closure of hospital beds was very public.

Is that a fair • I . statement.,or :ts it not? __ 'l,'he __ minister _.announced it here and he came in and ' he a.:nn~c~d · a number of times that twenty beds were closing here • iri answer to questions ~ MR. COLLINS: I never heard a word .~boit it. MR. SIMMONS: And so on and so forth. Yes,the minister did hear a word about it and I am going to tell him right now where he heard about it. I am going to tell him exactly where he heard about it. I am going to tell _him exactly where he heard about it. As a matter of fact that is my w~ole point, exactly my whole point~ . Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Health says that ha never heard about it\. Well,he beard about it at least once after and - ~~~-- 2697

Tape 975 AH-3 MR. SIMMONS: I will tell you when. Because you see, Mr. Speaker, I went looking about two weeks ago for some- MR.. DOODY:_ ____ __rp_r_~_ :RE:!<i_. ____ _ - ----- ---- J1R.ROWE:____FI:!:~ _w_it: ... . :is _ 9-evast _ating. ___________ _ . :_}1R ._S IMMONS..· MR. SIMMONS : M~!_~p~~~e~_. _ if... L hatLt.wice the - Mr. Speaker, if-I had twice the wit of the Minister of Finance I would be ' a~ half-wit. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS : I would be a half-wit. MR. MURPHY: · To take him on you would ha~e to _b::..e::::.......:a=---- half-wit. MR.

SIMMONS: I cannot say any~hing unkind about my coach,because he has agreed to go to Mount Pearl with us so we can loose the game. first stri ng. Now be qui te • ... =--- MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, two weeks ago I went looking for some routine information on how many hospital beds had _been close~~ Row, Mr. Speaker, that was public information for a number of months,_except I had not ;collated or collected the information so I was not sure how many had closed at St. _ JohnAs.(' General, and St •. Anthony, Gander and so forth.

So I went looking for it, I had my girl call a girl_ in the Department of Health to ask for what is a pretty routine piece· of information and my girl . told me, and I can only quote the words or-.•.the essence of what she said-:~~-sai~,n ~ get the feeling I am getting the ~~~:~-uncr-- -I have -phoned three times and I _ keE!p being told that, you know, ~, . . ~ ... ~ ·~ (· ::~~· : ... ~. . :. ·. hang _on":" Well eventually I got the information, Mr ~ Speaker, the mdnister came across the floor . one _ day a week ar so ago and gave ·' me the information. MR. H.

COLLINS: I did not go all the way across the floor. 2698

March 15~1977 Tape 975 AH-4 MR. SIMMONS: Now, Mr •. Speaker, - ~~ --- - - · - - - - ----- - -MR. DOODY: You left him alone - MR . SIMHONS: -No. Ye~· ,exactly ,Mr. Speaker, what kind of instructions do you have in those departments-and I will give you two other similar exampl.es in a moment~ wha~ kind of instructions do these people have? . Are they instructed that whenever they hear from an opposition MHA,no matter how routine the request is, have they got to refer it to the minister? MR. SPEAKER: A point-of order. -----=--== =--- ---~· . ~- .... 2699

March 15, 1977 Tape 976 PK - 1 Mr. Hickman: The rule of relevancy does. mean something, and I do submit the question of the secrecy or.the lack of secrecy of public servants and those who used to be obliged at one time to take an oath before - I do not know how many years ago, long ago - is not relevant to the present bill that is before this House. MR. SIMMONS: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. I was,I believe, being very relevant. I was speaking to the Legislative - AN RON. MEMBER: Speak up : MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, I was speaking to the Leg