Manitoba Hansard — 15 April 1975 (Sitting 47, 30th Legislature, 2nd Session)

30-2-47

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 p. m. , Tuesday, April 15, 1975 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 1273 MR . SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery, where we have 45 students of Grade 4 standing of the William Whyte School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Paul Toulin and Mrs. Sharon Gaber. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Point Douglas. On behalf of all the honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions.

The Honourable Member for St. Johns. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q .C. (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of the Guaranty Trust Company of Canada, praying for the passing of

an Act respecting Guaranty Trust Company of Canada. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: On behalf of the Honourable Member for Radisson, I beg to present the petition of the Carleton Club, praying for the passing of

an Act to amend

an Act to incorpo rate the Commercial Club of Winnipeg. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR . CHERNIACK: Under Reading and Receiving Petitions MR . SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving. MR. CLERK: The petition of the Investors Group praying for the passing of

an Act to amend

an Act to incorporate the Investors Group. REPORTS BY STANDING COMMITTEES MR . SPEAKER: Thank you. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. The Honourable Member for Gimli. MR. JOHN C. GOTTFRIED (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the First Report of the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs. MR . CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs met on Tuesday, April 15, 1975, for organization and appointed Mr. Gottfried as Chairman. It was agreed that the quo rum for all future meetings of the Committee would be seven (7) members. Your Committee has considered Bill No. 9,

an Act to amend The Brandon Charter, and has agreed to report the same with certain amendments. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gimli. MR . GOTTFRIED: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Wellington, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR . D. JAMES WALDING (St. Vital): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Honourable Member for Radisson, I beg to present the Second Report of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. MR .

CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources met on Tuesday, April 15, 1975, and examined the Annual Report of the Manitoba Telephone System for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1974. Your Committee received all information desired by any member of the Committee from the Chairman and General Manager, Mr. Gordon Holland, and members of the staff with re spect to all matters pertaining to the Annual Report and the business of the Manitoba Telephone System. The fullest opportunity was accorded to all members of the Committee to seek any information desired. MR. WALDING: Mr .

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Gimli, that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR . SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports; Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge.

1274 April 15, 1975 INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge) introduced Bill No. 32,

an Act for the Relief of Susan Thiessen. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: Questions. The Honourable Minister of Mines. HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q.C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Manage ment)(Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I was asked a question by the Leader of the Opposition yesterday relative to the Red River problem that we experienced in the last week and I have the infor mation now. It's fairly lengthly but I hope that the honourable member will let me give him the information. And it's somewhat different than I gave you yesterday. By the way, Mr. Speaker this report was on my desk yesterday.

It's marked April 11th but I didn't see it when I gave the answers to my honourable friend. "The IJC established a Red River Pollution Board in December 1964 at the recommen dation of the Department of External Affairs and State. The Red River Board, with appoint ments from each of Manitoba, Canada, Minnesota, North Dakota and the U. S. A. proceeded with an investigation. Several of the recommendations subsequently accepted by the Com - mission were as follows: Establishment of an International Board to assist the Commission with the carrying out of certain supervisory functions.

Establishment of watercology objectives at the boundary, one of which relates to the dissolved oxygen content, which is not to fall below five megawatts per" - million, I suppose, per l - maybe the Member for Riel can help me, mg/l. --(lnterjection)-- MR. SPEAKER: Milligrams. MR. GREEN: Milligrams - "required to protect the aquatic flora and fauna. In order to assist with the surveillance of water quality objectives, an automatic water quality monitor is operated on behalf of the IJC Board by Environment Canada.

One of the parameters measured is dissolved oxygen." I indicated to the honourable member that it was our officials who dis covered it. It appears that it was one of these automatic water quality monitors operated on behalf of the IJC by Environment Canada. "Manitoba 's representatives on the IJC Board are Messrs. Ward and Warriner. The present dissolved oxygen problem on the Red River was brought to the attention of J. Warriner on April 3rd.'' I'm not sure when ... I said Friday; I believe this is Thursday.

"At that time the monitor operator reported a d. o. level on the Red River at the boundary of less than .5 mg/l. J. Warriner was in touch with the agency people in the United States, E. P. A., North Dakota, Minnesota, concerning the problem. " That's our staff that brought it to their attention, so that is correct. "Both North Dakota and Minnesota were aware of the d;o. depletion on the Red River at Grand Forks the previous week, March 2 7th. The d. o. liad dropped to . 9 mg/l at that time.

This had not been followed up with Canada, Manitoba, since problems with water quality at Grand Forts have not traditionally posed boundary water problems due to the considerable dilution of the Red Lake River and the travel time before reaching the boundary." (I'm not sure whether that Red Lake River is correct, but that's what I have on my notes.) "Investigations were started by all agencies in the United States to determine the cause. Water samples have been sent to the following labs in order to try and identify the contanimants: U. S.

Environmental Protection Agency, Chicago; Ditto, Denver; Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, Minneapolis; Canada Centre for Inland Water, Burlington; Environment Control Branch, Winnipeg. The slug of contaminant has now been traced down to St. Adolphe." That's of course as at April 8th. "The river flows at present exceed 2, OOO cubic feet per second. The duration of the most severe portion of the slug exceeds 24 hours. Dissolved oxygen levels measured yesterday at St. Adolphe were one mg/l at 7 :30 a. m. and zero mg/l at 4 p. m." Mr. Speaker, I'm not now reading.

The most serious consequence of the slug could be the complete elimination of fish life in the entire dissolved oxygen-depleted reach of the river above Grand Forks to at least the Assiniboine River. Now I have to caution members that there are differing opinions as to what the damages could be and that is presently being investigated, but the most serious, of course, could be the entire elimination of fish life. "The Assiniboine River may be instrumental in diluting the effect of the slug. This is occurring at a time in history when there would appear to be an increased tendency towards a

April 15, 1975 1275 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. GREEN cont'd) •... sport fishery in the river. Dependent on the Spring breakup, dead fish in quantity may appear at the surface and on the banks following the ice breakup. The IJC have been made aware of the situation and the Canadian board chairman will be reviewing the matter with them at IJC Washington's semi-annual meeting this week. The water record, quality record, shows that only once during the past ten years has the d. o. dropped before 5 mg/l at the International Boundary.

On this occasion, every effort is being made to identify the origin of the contaminant concerned with a view towards agreed preventive measures, " and as I indicated, Mr. Speaker, we will examine any other alternatives that we feel the situation justifies when our reports are complete. MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I wonder if I may appeal to Ministers, who in the future have lengthy answers, whether they wouldn't consider giving them under Ministerial Statements. I find that it took six minutes for this answer. Now it encroaches on the members' question period.

If you wish, I can deduct that time from the 40 minutes but I'm just making the request. The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: That is quite satisfactory to me, Mr. Speaker, I would indicate to you that I asked leave of all of the honourable members of the House to deal with this statement, and my understanding of the rules is that unanimous consent of the House overrides every other consideration - which I obtained. MR. SPEAKER: I agree the Minister asked for leave but unfortunately the Chair didn't put it to the House. He just accepted it. Any other questions? The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR.

SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Official Opposition)(River Heights): Mr. Speaker, there are a couple of questions to be asked of the Minister and they take different lines of . . . Well, they involve different aspects of it, but I wonder if he could indicate at this point whether there is the possibility of damage to fish life in Lake Winnipeg. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I asked that question of my departmental officials last week when the matter was brought to my attention, and I was given the probable assurance - and I only put in those terms - that that is not likely to be the case, that the pollution feature at that stage and by that time would make it not a problem for fish life. But I give my honourable friend that answer with a caution that I'm not sure. I'm waiting for further reports. MR.

SPIVAK: I wonder if the Minister can indicate that from the time that this was first recorded, was there any remedial action that could have been undertaken by provincial, federal governments, or by International Joint Commission, or was it impossible to correct once it had been monitored? MR. GREEN: That question was also asked, Mr. Speaker. My understanding is that the one suggestion that came forward was that the slug could be channelled into the Red River Floodway, but that was considered to be impractical.

There is some water flows down the Red River anyway, and that it would be impossible to separate the slug from the balance of the water. That came up in attempting to determine solutions but it was considered to be impractical. MR. SPIVAK: In effect, then, what the Minister is indicating is that there really was nothing that could be done by government once it had been monitored and was on its way. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, there was nothing that departmental people who would be concerned with the problem could suggest that would in any deal with the situation which ha.d occurred.

Now that, to me, is sufficient reason at this point to say that there is nothing that anybody suggested could do about it. If somebody has a suggestion that if made in the future could have worked, I don't know of it at this point. MR.

SPIVAK: I wonder if the Minister or the First Minister could now indicate whether, as a result of the experience with respect to this particular matter, there should not be additional concern felt by the members of this Legislature and by the government with respect to the impact of the Garrison Diversion and the effect it could have, and the inability to deal with a situation in which pollution or some other matter would take place, and the inability to correct it. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question's asking for an opinion. Out of order. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR.

SPIVAK: It wasn't a question of opinion, I'm asking the First Minister and I'm

1276 April 15, 1975 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) .. .. asking the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources whether this incident has not raised an additional concern on their part with respect to the impact that the Garrison Diversion could have, both on the Assiniboine and on the Red River. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR . GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that our concern with the Garrison is at the highest crest that it could reach, I don't see how this incident could elevate that crest further than it is. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Speaker, I have a further question of the Minister of Mines and Resources on the same subject. Can the Minister indicate whether there is machinery by which the Province of Manitoba or private persons affected by this can receive financial compeIJ sation from United States authorities or from the company involved? MR. SPEAKER: Asking for a legal opinion. The Honourable Minister of Mines may wish to answer. MR . GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I won't give a legal opinion, I will merely indicate that the Province of Manitoba have difficulty establishing legal grounds for dealing with firms in Saskatchewan and Ontario relating to similar incidents. As to whether it is legally possible to deal with this problem, I would think that it is, but I thought it was legally possible to deal with the Saskatchewan and Ontario problems and I still hope that that has not yet died. But the Supreme Court of Canada disagreed with our position in that connection. MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, Could the Minister indicate whether the government of Manitoba would be taking the matter of compensation for damages to the International Joint Commission, and whether they have the power under the International Joint Commission to at least advise and refer the matter to the United States authorities? MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, in this particular case it may be the International Joint Commission or it may be a domestic court of some kind. It may be that the considerations in this case would be different to the considerations in the other case that I referred to.

But we are looking into all available alternatives. MR. AXWORTHY: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. Is there action that the Province of Manitoba would contemplate to provide for any form of action that citizens in the province, who may feel themselves injured or suffering damages in this respect, could use, or will be setting up any special appeal procedure or referral procedure so that they can make known their concerns or damages they may have suffered? MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, any citizen who has private damage will be able to take whatever remedies are available to him in the ordinary courts of law. Any citizen who claims public damage, or claims that the Province of Manitoba has been damaged, will be represented by the government of the Province of Manitoba, his elected representative. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPlV AK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. It relates to a report filed in parliament dealing with the office of the Auditor-General.

I wonder if he can indicate to the House whether the government would undertake to ask the Provincial Auditor to examine the Federal Government's report on the Auditor-General and to follow through with recom mendations to the Public Accounts Committee. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier)(Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, the report that the Leader of the Opposition refers to is I believe very current. It's my impression that it's been made available only in a very recent day. Clearly the Provincial Auditor will want to peruse that report.

I believe that documents and reports of that nature he does peruse as a matter of course. One of this significance I am confident he will want to peruse and in any case I will suggest that perhaps he make, you know, a special point of so doing. MR . SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister could indicate whether the government would consider amending the Provincial Auditor's Act to incorporate some of the recommen - dations. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, that may seem to be a logical conclusion but it would be imprudent to give such an undertaking yet for the simple reason that the report has only been received today by the Honourable the Member for St. Johns. As Legislative Assistant he has obtained a copy. My office hasn't yet received it but I imagine it will be forthcoming in n-

April 15, 1975 1277 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) .. .. a matter of a day or two, at which time it will be more prudent to answer in any definitive way. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr . Speaker, I wonder if I might ask the First Minister whether some extra copies could be made available for the Legislative Chamber. MR. SCHREYER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we will try to be accommodating.

I would hope that perhaps the provincial library, I will send a note a long asking that they make a point to obtain a few copies, and that might be the most expeditious way for copies to be available to members. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I direct my question to the Minister in charge of the Manitoba Development Corporation and would ask the Minister if he could inform the House whether the MDC-owned company, Venture Tours, has purchased a 52-foot yacht which is destined for side trip tours of Berens River for passengers of the SS Lord Selkirk. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines . MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure I properly heard the question, but the MDC board is considering an extension to the existing MS Lord Selkirk . I know of no purchase of m1y yacht. MR. BANMAN: Well as a matter of clarification, Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister then undertake to find out if the 52 foot launch which is destined for side trip tours at Berens River for the passengers of the SS Lord Selkirk, if that has indeed been purchased by the government owned Venture Tours? MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, before I'd ask that question I would have to get some information from the MDC with regard to the first question, and as a matter of fact I don't think it's going to be much faster for me to get it than for the honourable member to get it on Thursday when the Chairman of the Development Corporation will be before committee. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question for the Minister of Colleges and Universities. Can the Minister tell us whether he has, or his department, has examined reports of changes in the evaluation or examination procedures at the University of Manitoba as a result of the strike, which would be counter to the senate rules setting out evaluation procedures at the beginning of the year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education . HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education; Minister of Colleges and Universities Affairs)(Burrows): Mr.

Chairman, the matter of evaluation of student progress is one of responsibility of the university, its senate with the approval of the Board of Governors, and my information is that the evaluation procedures presently under way are meeting with the satisfaction, approval of the university. MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr . Speaker.

Can the Minister tell us whether they have set up any special appeal procedures for those students who feel that their evaluation or examination of progress has been adversely affected as a result of the problems there, or have been adversely affected as a result of changes in any of the previously announced evalu ation techniques or procedures? MR. HANUSCHAK: At the moment, Mr.

Speaker, I'm not aware of any significant changes in examination procedures that would necessitate any subsequent changes - or corre sponding changes, rather - in appeal procedures, but I will take the honourable member's question as notice . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr . Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. The federal Energy Minister has indicated there will be a natural gas shortage next winter, and has indicated Manitoba as well . I wonder if the First Minister is in a position to deal with this matter today. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR.

SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, there is some considerable body of thought building up in federal circles that we may well have some shortages of supplies of natural gas, and oil for that matter, in the very late part of the 1970s and the first three years or so of the 1980s. However, that is still speculative - I think I would have to describe it as speculative. And in

1278 . April 15, 197 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) ... . any case, sir, I am not sure just what the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition expects from the Government of Manitoba insofar as giving assurance! that there will be no shortages. We are hardly in a position to give assurances of that kind when it is my distinct understanding that assurances apparently cannot even be forthcoming from Canada or from the two main oil-producing and the one main gas-producing province. MR.

SPIVAK: Well, is the government in a position at this point to indicate that a communication or study or evaluation has been undertaken by them that would indicate that theri will be a natural gas shortage in Manitoba for this coming winter, and that the natural gas shortage will deal with those who are now the present customers? MR. SCHREYER: Not with respect to present customers, Mr. Speaker. That is my distinct understanding that the shortage will relate to the incremental load demands. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. I wonder if the Minister can indicate to the House, was he advanc ing the policy of the government when he indicated to the City of Winnipeg the other day that if the government would reduce the education tax from the property' then the government would have to take full control of the education administration? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. SAUL A. MILLER (Minister for Urban Affairs)(Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is asking a question based on a statement which I am alleged to have said.

I don't recall that statement. I wonder if he would clarify when and where I said it and what it is I actually said. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I understand that the Minister had indicated that if the Provincial Government would remove the education tax from the property, from the property owner, then the Provincial Government would have to take total administration of education in the province. I'm asking if this was the policy of the government and was he advancing the policy of the government? MR. MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, I think the member has a garbled version of what I think I recall just in general discussion, and it was a very :,:;imple proposition. It's understandable that if a provincial government were to take over the total costs of education, then the local autonomy, the school board, would to all intents and purposes just whittle away and die in its effectiveness. It would have a very little role to play. MR. PATRICK: A supplementary. Has the Minister or the government taken the position of not working to reducing the education ta.x on the property owner? MR. MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, the member has been here for the last five years and if he doesn't realize that this government is taking giant strides to ease the load on the local taxpayer, I don't know where he's been. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister and it relates to the question of future gas supplies. Is it correct that the demolition of buildings at Fort Churchill is being held off in view of the possibility Of the Polar Gas Pipeline actually coming through Churchill and utilizing some of the facilities that are there now? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: I believe, Mr. Speaker, that that kind of prospect is what has influ enced the federal Department of Public Works to hold off, at least for some intervening period of time, any firm decision with respect to demolition of existing infrastructure and buildings at Fort Churchill, so I guess the answer is yes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AX WORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Mines.

Can the Minister inform us whether the government is presently negotiating with a company called Tudale Exploration regarding a possible 50 percent provincial ownership of iron ore mines near N eej:Jawa? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, it's entirely possibly. If it is an exploration program such as is contemplated by our regulations, it would be automatic. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister tell us whether the Government of Alberta is also involved in these negotiations and has any intention of cost-sharing or taking 5 s e

April 15, 1975 1279 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) .. .. part ownership in such an exploration or development? MR. GREEN: Mr . Speaker, since I am not at all certain that there are negotiations, I can't answer that question. I can tell the honourable member that if the regula;::ions a;:iply, a:.1d it is that type of exploration program, then the Government of Alberta will have to share with whatever private partners they have the remaining 50 percent of the exploration program. MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, which I'll direct to this Minister but it may be answerable also by the Minister of Industry and Commer ce . Could he tell us whether there is any agreement with the Province of Saskatchewan or other western provinces that would preclude the development of any form of a steel mill develo;:iment in the Province of Manitoba based upon the co-operative economic agreements of last year, which might be feasi ble if such an iron ore deposit was explored and developed. MR. GREEN: Mr .

Speaker, I ••. know of such agreement, but I know that there has been action taken by the Federal Government which is more or less designed - and I hope I am being fair - to recognize Saskatchewan as the place where their concentration of effort in steel development would take place. I believe that that was, or could be characterized by some as one of the quid pro quo 's for the oil price agreement. STATEMENT- SPORTS MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Thompson . MR. KEN DILLEN (Thompson): Could I have leave of the House, Mr. Speaker, to make a non-political announcement? MR.

SPEAKER: Agreed? (Agreed) MR. DILLEN: Sir, it gives me great pleasure to announce that the Thompson Hawks Hockey Club are now the Western Canadian Intermediate AA Champions, having (they're all steelworkers) defeated Moose Jaw in three straight games and Calgary in four, and will be the Western Canada representatives for the Canadian Championships to start very shortly, and I would ask that this House join me in wishing them a successful tournament in Moncton. (Applause) ORDERS OF THE DAY - GOVERNMENT BILLS MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable House Leader . MR. GREEN: Mr .

Speaker, I would request that you call the adjourned debates on second reading in the order on which they appear on the Order Paper . MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Bill No. 13, the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. (Stands) Bill No. 15, the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. BILL 15 - THE

SUMMARY CONVICTIONS ACT MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr . Speaker, when the Attorney-General brought this bill in for second reading, the comments he made, as recorded in Hansard, are fairly short . We do agree that a considerable portion of the bill is more or less a housekeeping aspect in that the inclusion of "provincial judges" can now be covered by the all-embracing word of a "justice," and that is quite all right. But there are a few other things in here that the Minister stated tha.t I think are rather interesting, and here, sir, I would like to quote from Hansard.

He says: "These amendments that are before you have been prepared in consultation, as I said, with the RCMP. They've also been prepared in consultation with the City of Winnipeg, the Registrar of Motor Vehicles, the Chairman of the Liquor Control Commission, the Adminstrator of Court Services, and the Chief Provincial Judge and the Director of Prosecutions. " No place, Mr . Speaker, has there been mention made of consultation with the people.

It seems rather interesting, sir, that we are changing legislation for the benefit of the police, for the benefit of the Registrar of Motor Vehicles, for the benefit of the Chairman of the Liquor Control Commission, for the benefit of the Administrator of Court Services, and for the benefit of the Director of Prosecutions. And, sir, if this legislation goes forward as it is presently set up, it will be for their benefit. But, sir, will it be for the benefit of the people of Manitoba? I think that we all agree that there is certainly a need for good police procedures in the

1280 April 15, 1975 BILL 15 (MR. GRAHAM cont'd) ..•. Province of Manitoba, but, sir, it is also incumbent on any government to produce laws that protect the rights of the individual as well as those that are administering the law, and there are some things in here, sir, that cause me a great deal of concern. There's a new

section that is being added and its subsection appears, after having made allowance for some grammatical errors, and there are a few technical errors of that respect in it but they're not too difficult to correct, and what we are going to get is a provision now that will give any peace officer who believes that a person has committed an offence, it will give that peace officer the opportunity to commence a prosecution by completing and delivering an offence notice, and he will not have to, as he now presently has to, swear out an information charging that person with an offence.

There is no indication in this bill that other than the original notice that is given, that the policeman will then thereafter have to lay out a further statement giving the particulars. This is the procedure which has followed with respect to offences under the Highway Traffic Act in many instances up to this time. It is designed to deal with the high mobility of motorists and the likelihood that the offence may occur in a jurisdiction other than in the province, or different from the place where the offence may have occurred. Most other statutes creating

summary conviction offences are not mobile offences and the justification for the convenience under the Highway Traffic Act really, sir, does not exist. The decision as to whether initiating a prosecution or not is made by the police officer at or immediately after the apparent moment of the commission of the offence, and the police officer being human, ma,y be made in moments of anger or stress. Such decisions, if delayed for a short period of time as at present, with the necessity of swearing an information, may very well lead to the conclusion that the offence does not justify the initiation of a prosecution.

The present system offers better opportunity for the exercise of judgment by the police officer involved, and it would appear that the primary purpose of this

section in the bill is adminis trative convenience rather than an improvement in the quality of justice. Administrative convenience rather than an improvement in the quality of justice. The majority of people consider

summary conviction offences serious, and many of them in fact are, notwithstanding that the penalties are relatively light. Sir, we believe that while it's essential that we make every effort to improve the quality of service of justice, that in so doing we also improve the justice and protect the rights of the individual.

There is another place in the bill, sir, where we find that what we 're really doing is condoning sloppy police work; where it says you can use abbreviations, an expression of any word or expression, whether or not it is understandable by the general public, and that those words and abbreviations shall in effect be the same as if they had been written out in full. Sir, this certainly will speed up the handing out of tickets. It will speed it up all right.

They can just jot a few things down and whether or not the person can understand it really doesn't seem to matter, because if this bill goes through this way, that is going to be considered to have been written as if there were no abbreviations at all. Those abbreviations are going to stand up whether or not they are understood by the public, and if there is no further swearing out of an offence after that ticket is written , how is the person that is involved going to find out just what this is all about.

He's got a few little hen scratches on a little piece of paper that are unintelligible to him, maybe he doesn't understand the police abbreviations, and yet this is the same as a summons. Authority is being given for the use of words, expressions or abbrevi ations which may be authorized by the regulation for use on the offence notice to designate an offence.

It is abundantly clear that the vast majority of the population will be unaware of the meaning of such abbreviations and, as a result, the delivery of an offence notice may not make clear to the person charged, the nature or type of offence for which they have been charged. It is only the most elemental justice that any person charged with an offence of any nature whatsoever should be able to determine from the document charging him with that offence, the precise nature of the offence which he is alleged to have committed.

The use of abbreviation, social expression or words can only ensure that the ordinary member of the public will be unable clearly to ascertain the offence with which he is charged. Should the offence notice procedure be enacted, most clearly the provisions respecting abbreviations should not be enacted. Then, sir, much of this has been lifted from the Highway Traffic Act and I don't know

April 15, 1975 1281 BILL 15 (MR. GRAHAM cont'd) • . . . whether the Minister later intends, if this Act passes, if he intends to remove the other legislation from the Highway Traffic Act, but there is another one, another

section here anyway, dealing specifically with parking offences, which states that all they have to do is affix the notice to the vehicle; it doesn't have to be handed to the owner, and that shall be sufficient. Whether vandals come along and remove it or whether the wind or the rain wash it away, that doesn't matter. It shall be deemed to have been served. And if yoa look at one line, it says: "The offence notice shall be conclusively deemed to be personal service of a summons on the person registered as the owner of the vehicle." Conclusively deemed to have been served. Sir, this is most inappropriate.

The leaving of the summons portion of an offence notice on a vehicle should be prima facie evidence of personal service but should always be capable of rebuttal by the person charged with the offence and a final decision should be left to the presiding judge. Provisions such as this increasingly bring the law into contempt since they are designed only to render easier the task of the Crown in convicting, and to render impossible effective defence against any such charges by the owner of the vehicle . No amount of administrative convenience can justify this provision.

I would suggest that the offence notice, if it is issued, should in addition to being signed by an informant, be required to be completed by the informant, printing his name on the offence notice so that his identity is clearly established. I would also suggest that no offence notice would be invalidated merely because of the failure to set forth therein particulars respecting any matter for which provision is made in the form of the offence notice which are not germane or relevant fo the offence alleged.

Once again, as in the case of a summons properly issued, the officer issuing the offence notice should be required to issue the same with care, and in such matter as to identify properly the person charged and the nature of the offence. Sir, I think it should be said that every effort should be made to expedite the proper and effective performance of police officers in their duty, and enforcing not only the Criminal Code but the acts of the Legislatures, the by-laws of municipalities, and the rules and regu lations of those various acts and bodies.

This pursuit of efficiency and effectiveness should not, however, be done at the expense of the public nor in any way which would limit the ordinary member of the public from ascer taining from the notice which he receives a clear identification of the offender, the date, place and circumstances in which the offence occurred, and the precise nature of the offence with which he is charged. Sir, you know, if I was interested in establishing a police state, I think I would like to have this type of legislation . It would certainly make it easier.

I think it would almost be necessary, if you were concerned with establishing a police state, to have legislation of this nature to expedite in as quick a manner as possible the punishment of people for crimes which they are alleged to have committed. But, sir, I'm not really interested in establishing a police state. I don't think the Attorney-General is either - at least I would hope he isn't.

And so I would ask him to very seriously consider making significant changes so as to ensure that the rights of the individual in society, at least if not better protected are as well protected as they were before he brought this legislation in. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr . Chairman, I'd like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lakeside, that the debate be adjourned . MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO. 16 - THE METALUC MINERALS ROYALTY ACT MR. SPEAKER: Bill No . 16 . The Honourable Member for St .

James. (Stand) The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: With leave, I'm prepared to speak on the bill at the present moment. MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed? Very well. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I too just wanted to begin to make some initial remarks on the proposed Mineral Royalty Act that the Minister of Mines and Resources proposed in second reading to this House yesterday.

I think that the tenor of my remarks would be again to try to provide some of our initial reactions and concerns, and then leave perhaps some of the more detailed examination of the bill up to my colleagues, and in keeping

1282 April 15, 1975 BILL 16 (MR.

AXWORTHY cont'd) .... with the spirit of anecdotal description that the Minister established yesterday by using certain homilies of a folk character to describe his philo sophical intentions, I'd like to begin by reminding of one which is not a fictional anecdote but one which in fact occurred many years ago, more years ago than I'd like to remember, when I was a Freshman in Isaac Newton High School, beginning at that time my initial career in high school football, which didn't turn out as illustrious as my colleague, but having as a coach a gentleman who in previous years played football with a small, wiry, young quarterback from St.

John's Tech, and he held this gentleman up as an example to all of us aspiring athletes as to how to conduct one's self on a football field. I recall very vividly him pointing out that the fascinating techniques that this gentleman who had played football for St. John's Tech used could only be known as dipsy doodling in those days.

It's probably an old fashioned term now, but it simply means that you look one way and go another, that it's a sleight of hand, that while you 're focusing the attention of your opponent to the move that you 're making to go left, you all of a sudden shift over and go right, or vice versa, wh�tever the case may be. And he said, ''You should have seen that guy play." He said, "All the time he was making everybody look one way and while everyone was shifting to watch the way he was going, he'd go the other way." Well, with no surprise, Mr.

Speaker, that gentleman he's referring to is now our Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, and I would only suggest that he has not changed very much since that time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I am certainly enjoying my honourable friend's humour, but it will surprise him to know that I am an alumni of Isaac Newton High School, that I never went to St. John's Tech, that I never played quarterback for St. John's Tech. MR . AXWORTHY: I'm sorry, Mr.

Speaker, that the Minister didn't hear me quite correctly, and I was perhaps getting myself too much in detail, but the gentleman I was referring to had played for St. John's Tech and was talking about a previous quarterback from my old alma mater, and he said that we should follow in his steps. He would know the gentle man's name if I spoke of him. He said, "That is who you should emulate." I was quite ... MR. GREEN: Again, it will surprise my honourable friend to know that I never played quarterback for Isaac Newton High School. MR. AXWORTHY: Well, I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that either my old coach was wrong or the Minister has been paddinghis press releases recently, because I've seen where he has used his references to it. --(Interjection)-- Well, let's put it this way, Mr. Speaker, then . This gentleman said that the water boy of Isaac Newton will have a better shift and sleight of hand ...

Now we're talking, and referring to the matter, I think that whatever the training experience, whether it's carrying a water bucket or a football, the Minister of Mines and Resources has undoubtedly maintained and certainly advanced to a very fine and high art the capacity for deceptive ball handling or sleight of hand, and I think that there's no clearer example of this appears than in the case of his total package of mining legislation. Because, Mr.

Speaker, for the past year this province and its legislators and its media have been nervously twitching about the intentions of the government on its mining royalty, concerned what is the Minister going to do now, and there has been long articles and great consternation and anguish, the sort of gnashing of teeth, as to how are we going to cope with this revised change. And there certainly has been a high degree of speculation about it. Then all of a sudden the Minister produces his bill, and lo and behold, it's in his own terms, moderate.

The President of International Nickel sort of says, "Well, it's a good bill." The Member from Lakeside congratulates him on it saying, "Isn't this nice, that he's listened to all our recommendations that we brought up before?" And now everyone is relaxed. Everyone is sort of saying, well, isn't that nice that the whole thing has now been ... or it's not nearly as bad as we feared; we'll have no problems; that things are kind of really in a pretty passive case. But in the meantime, Mr.

Speaker, in the meantime, while all that attention has been focused on this bill and while everyone has now had their fears appeased and their concerns alleviated, the Minister has already brought into action, has already implemented sort of directions and mining policy which have much more significant impact, much more severe questions of the role of the µublic and private sector, and bring into question much more of

April 15, 1975 1283 BILL 16 (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) .... the future of mining development and exploration in the Province of Manitoba. But in doing so, it was not in a bill presented to this House, it was a group of regulations that were set forward and presented last January. And I think the Minister alluded to that briefly. He touched upon it. I was looking through Hansard and he said, well, I'm not too worried if you guys don't pass this bill. I kind of got what I want anyway. I mean, this bill, you know, it's a little bit of icing on the cake, because I've really got what I want. He's quite right, Mr. Speaker.

The Minister of Mines and Resources has really got what he wanted by the act of those regulations. This Mining Tax Royalty Bill. has been a placebo or a stalking-horse. It's really partially been designed to deflect attention, to have us looking at it one way while he's going in the other, and the way he is going ... I think that this is the point we have to bring up, Mr. Speaker, at least clarify the situation; at least put out on the open display what really does this total package of mining legislation mean.

Because the im - port is not necessarily in the Royalty Act - there are some things in it which need looking at - the real import is in those mining regulations, because it is in those mining regulations, Mr. Speaker, where the ability and potential for a significant takeover of government responsibility in the mining field really occurs. That is where it is. And in some cases the application of those regulations could lead to a significant withdrawal or drawback or recession in the exploration and development of mineral resources in this province. And if that happens, Mr.

Speaker, then the obvious begins to occur, and that is that the Mineral Resources Limited, that Crown corporation which we have set up, just simply moves in. Now the import of those regulations - there are several of them - first, it certainly puts a much higher degree of onus on prospecting mining development companies to stake claims and to forward their claim proposals and arrangements over a period of years, and it increases certainly ... Yes. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister state his point of order. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I know that points of order which raise relevance are very difficult to put and are often a waste of time for the person putting them, but in this case, Mr. Speaker, I would urge the honourable member to deal with the bill, that the regulations indeed can be referred to and there will be time to discuss them during the estimates, which are now unlimited, but that the subject matter of what is before the House is the bill, and if he is going to make his entire onslaught on the effect of those regulations, then I would submit, with the greatest of respect, that the regulations are not now being debated.

Now I stated at the outset, I'm aware that a point made on relevance is one which is so easily by-passed and then continued. I would urge the honoarable member, in the interests of dealing with the issue before us, to certainly not stay away from the regulations as they relate to the bill, but to deal with the subject matter of the bill before the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel on the same point of order. MR. CRAIK: On the same point of order, Mr.

Speaker, I would hope that you would allow some degree of latitude in this debate to discuss, at some length at least, the mining regulations at the hearings of the Economic Development Committee.

When the Manitoba Minerals Corporation made its presentation, the Mines Minister at that time threatened to close the meeting if the head of the Manitoba Minerals Corporation was to be dragged into any sort of an over-all debate and assessment about the mining regulations, so there wasn't really a wide-ranging opportunity at that time to look at these and this is the only bill before us, the present Royalty Bill, which we'll have a chance to look at. I agree with the Member for Fort Rouge that the regulations are in fact more substantive • . . than the bill which is now before us. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

Order please. The point was noted, but once the honour able member_ starts making a debate on a different issue, he's no longer on a point of order. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. IfI may comment on the Minister's point of order in answer, I think that the Minister was quite right to raise the question of relevance. I think, though, that we have to go back to his own statements of yesterday, which is to say that this Act on mining tax royalty is part of a package. It's an integral piece of a total mining philosophy.

I think he said that the Mining Act itself was a termination of a philosophy or a program that they've been implementing over a period of time, and therefore to judge the im - pact and effect of that last cornerstone in the edifice he has built, we have to look at the evi dence itself. We have to look at what has gone on before and we have to look at the package

1284 April 15, 1975 BILL 16 (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) .... that the Minister has brought forward. So I think that that is the point of my raising the issue of regulation, because, Mr. Speaker, the point is a very serious one, and that is, ultimately what will be the total effect of this new mining package of legislation and regulation that have been implemented? And I think that will be the tenor of my remarks and I would hope that you, Mr. Speaker, would take that into account as I proceed with my discussion. So, Mr.

Speaker, the point I was trying to make is that those regulations - and I will not take the time Of the House to go over them in detail because they are available in the January 11tl Gazette, and I think available to every member - but what they do raise in this very vital regard, Mr. Speaker, is that when a prospecting mining development firm puts its claim in · and has it assessed by the Department of Mines and Natural Resources, they have 45 days - and I believe I'm correct on this - to decide whether they want to opt in for 50 percent; no effort, no investment.

It's just simply - I think as someone said it's like a guy hanging around a poker table, and whoever wins the stake, he says, ''I want half of them, simply because I've been watching; it's my observer's fee for providing moral support, 11 or whatever one wants to describe it. That's an interesting ploy; it's an interesting way of playing poker. I wish that the kind of people I play those sort of card games with would operate by the same rules. It would save an awful lot of long evenings. But the point, Mr.

Speaker, is this, that what the Minister's really saying - and I think that he partially answered it in Question Period - is that this government now has the right to opt in, whenever it wants, for 50 percent. And when the Minister said before, that, you know, we're trying to adopt a philosophy based upon Henry George, which says one's returns should be based upon one's investment, one's entrepreneurship, one's sort of sweat of his brow, energy - all this and we get 50 percent, for doing what? For having a department? --(Inter jection)-- For ..• Well, the option is there. And that is the question, Mr.

Speaker, really is to what degree will this provide the kind of basic incentive that is required in the Province of Manitoba to maintain a continuing program of exploration and development in the mineral resources' field; to what degree does that provide it, because if in fact the regulations are a disincentive - which I suggest they are - then to what degree does the Mining Royalty Bill offer any incentive? It doesn't, of course. It is basically passive or neutral on that point. It doesn't particu larly offer any ...

It is not necessarily disincentive; it doesn't say don't explore and develop, but the Minister's own words I think were fairly instructive, and I read from the Hansard of yesterday, on Page 1238. He said that if a sector wishes to continue as a participant with government in the developing of the industry in accordance with the new rules, that this is all right for them to do. But there is no sense of encouragement that they're going to go ahead and do any more. I mean, if International Nickel is doing its thing up in Thompson and they want to stay there, that's all right with us. But, Mr.

Speaker, if there is the incentive to begin developing new resources, to be providing some kind of encouragement for further exploration by private companies or individuals or consortiums or whatever kind of arrange ment there is, this government, in the words of their own Minister, is saying, "We're not doing anything about it. 11 And I think there is a built-in premise there because if they do it, we 're going to take half the action right away anyway, which isn't exactly what you call an encouragement, and if they don't do it, we move in with our Mineral Resources Limited.

Now that comes down to some questions, Mr. Speaker, which I think are quite important, and that is, is the public of Manitoba, which is now into the Mineral Resourc es Limited to the tune of - and again the Minister can correct me - I think about $3 million a year, is that .. . ? MR. GREEN: Half a million. MR. AXWORTHY: Half a million, whatever.

Are we now going to be able to start capitalizing the much larger amounts of financial resources that are going to be required to get into, to compensate or supplement or fill in, for all that large amount of capital that will not be invested as a result of this total package of mining industry regulations and legislation that has been developed?

In other words, are we going to start using up the very scarce capital that could be utilized in this province for a much higher social priority in fields of housing, or education, or economic development of other kinds, to start running around looking for mines when we know that there is mining capital there if it is given some encouragement to be used? h

April 15, 1975 1285 BILL 16 (MR. AXWORTHY cont'

d) We heard a speech yesterday, Mr . Speaker, from the Member from St . Vital, I believe, and he was saying, "Oh boy," he said, "these Liberals . Aren't they awful? They're coming up with all kinds of programs that are going to cost money." Mr. Speaker, we 're not coming up with programs that are going to cost any money; we're simply saying let's spend your money more effectively.

Let's quit fooling around and wasting the scarce capital we have in this province for these kind of ideological will-o'-the-wisps that we want to pursue to satisfy Henry George's theory, as opposed to putting the money where it counts, where it can do some real good .

Because we don't have unlimited capital and we don't have unlimited resources, we 're going to put public capital into things which only the public can supply, and we shouldn't be drawing those scarce resources out of the areas where there is already private capital prepared to go in for the sake of some theory developed by an economist about 1889 or 1890, whenever Henry George was . . .

And I think there are some interesting things about Henry George and we probably could have some interesting debates about it - and the Minister of Public Works has an uncle who'll believe in it and take it to bed with him every night instead of his teddy bear . But the fact of the matter is that there is a real issue at stake and that is, to what degree are we prepared to assign the kinds of capital which comes at more money and doesn't come easy to a province with some of the limited financial resources of Manitoba?

Are we prepared to in a sense duplicate or replace private capital with our own public capital when that public capital could be much better used? And so the question, Mr .

Speaker, that I would raise again with the Minister, is, I'm not so sure that his legislation that he has brought forward in this · House is all that innovative, because I think the real test of innovation would have been to work out a scheme which says, "I want to make sure that the public in Manitoba gets its fair share of any windfall profits, but at the same time ensure that there will be proper encouragement, incentive, for the investment of private capital." That would be the real test of innovation: to make sure we get a proper share for the public without necessarily discouraging, or stepping down, or trying to repress the application and the activity of mining companies .

So I'm not here sort of saying let the mining companies go sort of full steam ahead; I'm saying that would have been the real innovation. And what was interesting, Mr. Speaker, is that there are other jurisdictions, who have, I think, come up with some interesting twists on that particular problem of how to do both at the same time, in fact one which was reported just about a month ago, and I've copies of some of the bills, with the kind of taxation bill brought in by the British government, which is also Socialist and I'm sure Mr . Wilson has also read Henry George, dealing with the North Shore oil fields .

And what they did there, Mr . Speaker, is very interesting in thattheyhave some of the same elements that is in the Minister's bill in terms of a basic 12-1/2 percent royalty, and then when the profits sort of escalate, there is a scale that goes up to 45 percent, which is again similar in principle. But there's one inter esting exception to that, Mr . Speaker, and that is that in the first four or five years there is a tax holiday, so that those exploration development firms which are advanced cases, either developing marginal fields or high cost fields, are able to do so without bearing extra tax burdens.

Now this was a Socialist government that did it, because I don't think in the area of tax dollars any particular quality - it doesn't make Liberals or Conservatives socialists. I think we're trying to find practical answers to real problems of how to use our natural resources effectively and get a fair return.

And the philosophy behind that particular British motion is to forego the tax revenues in early years, and permanently in the case of marginal fields, to ensure maximum production as quickly as possible, thus freeing corporate cash for further explorations and development, and by getting production going, bringing a number of relief in terms of cash inflow into that country - and if we translate it, we could say into this province. It shows that then, after the four or five year period, they get hit just as hard or harder than they do under our present tax bill, and I think that that, Mr .

Speaker, shows perhaps greater signs of innovation, a greater dexterity with fiscal instruments, to ensure that there would be the ability to respond to that particular problem of making sure the public gets its fair share of the economic rent that is gained as the result of inflated prices on commodities and resources, but at the same time not discourage or throw back on the ability of private capital to be used in

1286 April 15, 1975 BILL 16 (MR. AX WOR THY cont'd) . . . . . exploration and development. Mr.

Speaker, I think that this is something that has got to be looked at in reference to this bill, that it may be that we should look seriously at bringing in amendments to see if we could acquire the same kind of capacity; that I don't dispute parts of the Minister's proposals in terms of the base royalty tax and then the sliding scale upwards to maximize returns to this community when heavy profits are made, but I am concerned about that ability which, if you follow the logic of his whole program through, ends up using or utilizing scarce public capital in areas where private capital would do just as well and maybe even better.

Now the Minister goes on, I think, and this is probably where philosophically we divide, because I want them to do it publicly. I want the public sector to be doing it. --(Interjection)- Well, okay. That really is a major dividing point because I raise these two questio ns: First, should we be using the capital to do it ? And secondly, will we get the same results?

Because I think that that again comes down to the question of whether a government department or Crown corporation or agency, or whatever it may be, which tests or measures its performance as an organization, not only its ability to return a profit or return something on its investments, but on some budget accounting, by what the auditor says or by what the Treasury Board says, or by what Planning and Priority Committee says, or by what the Minister says, that is not a proper measure. That's a budget measure.

And, you know, one of the interesting things about the civil service departments or about government right across the board, whether it's Manitoba Hydro or the hospital system, as we turn them over into public agencies, as we turn them into public control, we change the form of accountability. They are no longer accountable to a little black line down at the bottom right hand of a margin sheet . They are now accountable to what budget that they spend.

Now one of the unfortunate but almost natural laws of human nature is that when you begin applying budget accountability as opposed to performance accountability, then one determines what he does by how much a bigger budget he gets next year. You're not judged by whether you produced a proper return, you're judged by saying, "W ell, this year I had 128 man-staff-years, and next year in order to show that I'm improving I have to have 135.

" That is the basic fallacy of turning any organization - and we'll have something to say about this when we talk about uni versities, when we talk about hospitals, and all the other institutions that we turn into public institutions, is that we change their form of accountability. We really change them from being accountable according to a performance that can be measured on a basic return into one that's measured by some budget standard, an artificial abstract figure that's determined by groups of accountants, or whomever, inside the locked rooms of government, and they say whether it's good or bad.

But there is really no measure - you don't have someone saying we're going to withdraw our investments or shares; we're not going to invest in the company any more, because we have government doing it; and to go back to the analogy of the poker game, the one thing that we find out about government - and not just this government, but every provincial government, and the Federal government included, which gets into this business of trying to replace private investment capital with public capital - it is very much like a poker game.

You start making losses and,"Boy, " you say, "All I need is one big chit to get my losses back. " And you keep laying down the bets one after the other in the hope that some day you 're going to get that Cal ifornia split and the whole thing will come back to you. Well it doesn't happen that way, because government cannot be run like a poker game. And yet we're compelled to do that, and it's almost by the nature of that gambling spirit that is so necessary, that we are always trying to recoup our losses.

And the reason we try to recoup them is because there's no real sort of a Damocles sword hanging at the neck because you're going to have your investment pulled back . There's always a taxpayer available to take care of deficits, to put in more capital, to cover overruns, and not to worry about sort of tomorrow, because at least to this stage it seems to be a kind of a great bottomless pit that we can keep dipping into . That, Mr.

Speaker, is why we object to the under lying philosophy of the Minister when he says, "I'm prepared to have the public sector do it, " and in fact not only is he prepared to have it, you can see him nudging them aside. He's just not prepared, he's easing them out. Not boldly, he's not sort of pushing them out with a stick , but he's putting a little bit of a shoulder to them and just simply taking away the incentive and the attraction. I can see, sort

April 15, 1975 1287 BILL 16 (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ..... of, down the street, two or three years, that's exactly what's going to be happening, that lo and behold, you'll find out that the mining industry in Manitoba will almost be exclusively operated by the Manitoba Mineral Resources Limited, operating and commanding large amounts of capital to . . . into exploration and development and getting its customers to say, "See, I told you. Henry George and I were right all the time. " Well, what's going to result as a result of it is that (

a) that large amount of capital is going to be invested; and, Mr. Speaker, frankly I don't think we will be getting the kind of exploration and development we need in order to keep the mineral and mining industry in this province profitable and progressive, and putting out a fair return to the people of Manitoba, because one of the things that we have in this province, Mr .

Speaker, is the fact that we appear to have a still rich storehouse of mineral resources throughout Manitoba, and with proper hus bandry and stewardship and conservation they will continue to provide a good deal of wealth and return to this province so that we can pay for our other kinds of social and economic activity. But, Mr. Speaker, I'm afraid that as the Minister is kind of shoving and nudging and easing out, he's going to simply provide a total declension and decline in the ability of those resources to provide a proper return for this community. That's going to be the end result of this new philosophy.

And not simply because it is taxing mining . . • , which we basically agree with because we feel that it is proper for this province to get its return on windfall pro fits and on economic rents, where it's going to happen is that you take the total impact of the total combination of things, you 're simply going to find out that that's where the decline is going to set in and that we 're going to be taking a lot of 50 percents of nothing, because there won't be that much more activity going on. Because it is my assertion to you, Mr.

Speaker, and to members of this House, that by sort of taking away the incentive and by offering no new incentive, nothing in this tax bill or regulations or anything else, of any new incentive similar to what the British government has offered to exploration in their country, there is no new incentive offered, that we are simply going to find that that kind of activity will slowly dwindle away so that the Minister and his Crown corporation can move in and command and monopolize that field. And once that monopoly takes place, Mr . Speaker, we 're back to the same old game - that monopolies don't work.

If there is anything we should be learning from our history since the days of Henry George, it is that when you set someone up in a monopoly and there's no longer any requirement to pro duce other than to keep up with your budgets from last year and incrementally improve it, that any incentive to improve, to expand, to develop, simply goes out the window, and there is nothing more arrogant, nothing more indifferent, and nothing slower moving than a monopoly.

And that is one of the crowning sort of tragedies that we may be perpetrating at this present moment, is that we are setting the stage for this Minister and his Mineral Resources Limited to become a monopoly in exploration and development in the province. --(Interjection) --Well, I'm not so sure. As I said, the Minister has a great capacity for smoke-scree ning, or for sleight of hand. Maybe this Minister is right.

Maybe the only saving grace will be that they will be as incompetent in this as they were in other things, and that they will not be able to realize the potential of the facts that they put before us; that they'll fumble it or stumble on it and it just simply won't work the way they would like to see it. And maybe that is our only hope, Mr. Speaker, that it will in fact work out that way, that we'll simply have to rely upon the frailty of the present government in trying to do anything practical or effective, which they have demonstrated time and time .

That may save us and may still provide some capacity, even though I think that it is fair to say that the existence of those regulations, the fact that they are on the books right now, that the government can opt in for 50 percent, is in itself enough of a disincentive or discouragement so that the volume of exploration and development will certainly winnow and decline in a very short period of time. And so, Mr.

Speaker, that is really the concern that we have when we look at this pack age of mining legislation , that there are elements in it which certainly can be commended and which we think are worthy of support, and that is certainly the element which would require any windfall profit or economic grant to return a proper share to the public of Manitoba. But that has solved only one half of the question.

On the other half of the equation, the capacity of this government, and in part the Federal Government is equally responsible for confusing the pic ture, they have not provided for any kind of stimulus which will allow or enable or encourage us to continue in a progressive development of exploration and mineral production in this

1288 April 15, 1975 BILL 16 (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) .. ... province, and as a result the revenues accruing from these new tax royalty laws will themselves likely decline. And, as a result , we will be losers in that kind of game.

And so the major default and weakness in this kind of structure of regulation and tax law that the Minister has imposed is that it does not offer that, and in fact offers insteac the looming spectre of the monopoly of exploration and development by government, and the consequence and implication of that is simply the one that we have seen repeated time and time again, that once that monopoly takes plac e, that once the Mineral Resources Limite d is really the only major actor on the stage, then the performance will become very bad. MR. SPEAKER: The motion will remain in the name of the Honourable Member for St .

James. Bill No. 20, proposed by the Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. The Honourable Member for Roblin. (Stand) That takes care of all the second readings. The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of College s and Universities , �hat Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Maje sty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair . . . . . . continued on next page d

April 15, 1975 1289 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITI ES AFFAIRS MR. CHAI RMAN: Resolution 32 (a ) (1) - Th e Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Chairman, I had listened to the Minister's explanations and the figures he gave last evening on the enrolments at the community colleges, and I realize that when the figures were given that there was a somewhat different system of counting.

I take it that at Red River Community College, for instance, where the number of full-time day students was given as 9, 984 that that probably could count individuals as two units in that if they were in two terms that the enrolment might really be double the number of bodies involved.

I wonder if the Minister could give us - I think he did give in general terms some count of individuals that were enrolled at the school at any one time - is it possible to get a figure that would be comparable with the standard student units that are used by the universi ties in calculating the formula for the -grants fr0m the Universities Grants Co mmission. I'd like to be able to compare more accurately the total enrolments of the various community colleges with those of the universities. MR. CHAIRMAN: Th e Honourable Minister of Colleges and Universities Affairs. MR. HANUSCHAK: No, Mr.

Chairman, we do not have a formula that would be comparable with that used by the university for the reason that I've indicated last night. Th ere is a more rapid turnover of students in the community colleges than there is in univer sity, in university, by and large, the students are registered there for the full year. Well, any period less than that, -- (Interjection)-- Well, hardly except for the fact that some courses are on the half-year basis or they're one- half courses.

But in the community colleges where, you know, they range from a number of weeks up to two years, so we do not have a formula that would enable you to make a comparative analysis. MR. McGILL: I think, Mr. Chairman, then if we took a particular day, say March 3 1, 1975 and counted the enrolments at each of the co mmunity colleges, that would give us a figure that would be comparable with the university enrolment. So if such a figure were available, I would appreciate having that in due course if it can be arranged. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that can be arranged. MR. McGILL: Thank you.

The other topic that came up for brief discussion, and . some short co mments by the Minister, was the problem of space at community colleges. I under stand that there is some problem in certain areas at community colleg es. I'm aware of the freeze on capital expenditures that the Minister .. . the policy that has been applied to universities and their problems with space for growing enrolments. I'm wondering if the Minister can give some specific answers as to his policy with respect to space deficiencies at community colleg es under the current terms of freeze on capital expenditures. MR.

HANUSCHAK: In response to the question which the Honourable Member for Brandon West posed just a few moments ago, the enrolment at our community colleges at any given point in time, I have the figures for January 1, 1974.

As of that date, the enrolment at Red River Comm unity College was 5, 130 which is in the very close neighbourhood to the 5, OOO optimum figure which I mentioned last night, and the 5, 130 was broken down as follows: 3, 566-enrolled in the campus day courses; 479, adtilt basic education; 956 in evening courses and the like; and 36 were rural ABE, rural adult basic education, and 93 rural evening course connected or offered out of Red River. The enrolment at Assiniboine Co mmunity College at that time, the same date was 760 at Brandon, and 601 rural.

The Keewatin Comm unity College enrolment was 563 on campus, and 127 in various other communities in the North. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, those are figures for a year and three months ago roughly. Are they roughly comparable now? Has there been a percentage increase in enrolment? MR. HANUSCHAK: At some later point in time, Mr. Chairman, I could obtain for the honourable member more up-to-date figures.

I appreciate the fact that they are a year and three months old, but we use those figures then add it on to them the students who enrolled during the year to give total figures for calendar year 1974, but I will make every effort to obtain more recent figures that would give the honourable member some indication of the enrolment at our community colleges at some particular point in time. MR. McGILL: Now, I wonder then if the Minister would comment on, and tell us the areas of acute space deficiency in the co mmunity colleges and the sp ecific policy of his department with respect to those difficulties.

1290 April 15, 1975 SUPPLY - COLL EGES AND UNIVERSITIES MR, HANUSCHAK: Well, Mr. Chairman, as I indicated last night, in Red River Community College, the space shortages that may occur, they vary from time to time with the rise and fall in the popularity and demand for various courses, but I also want to remind honourable members that it's approximately a year ago that we did build a substantial addition to Red River Community College.

Now, at Assiniboine Community College, the area within which we suffer the greatest measure of space shortage is space for industrial shops as opposed to space that may be used primarily or solely for a classroom type of teaching, and that is presently being reviewed. There were a number of alternatives that we were considering with a view to relieving the space shortage but it has not been finalized at this point in time. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, the shop space that the Minister mentions is the area that is needed by the Community College at Brandon for the courses in heavy duty equipment mechanics.

I believe this is one of the courses that has proven to be very attractive and providing a very important need in the industrial development in western Canada, and I was particularly interested in how the Minister might achieve some relief in that area. I understand from liis remarks that they are considering possibilities to overcome this difficulty and to take the restrictions off enrolment that presently occur because of the lack of industrial shop space. Is there any more specific information the Minister can provide in respect to some relief in this area. MR.

HANUSCHAK: On occasion it may be possible to provide ourselves with additional space by relieving some of the pressure for and demand for classroom space, and at the present time my department has contacted the University of Brandon asking whether it may have any classroom space that it would be able to free up for the use of Assiniboine Community College for the fall.

But at this point in time we have not had a reply from the president of the University of Brandon, but if there should be any space available there then we could rearrange and reassign the space utilization at Assiniboine Community College to at least offer immediate, be it on a temporary basis, but some immediate relief to .whatever the space problems may be. I should also mention in more detailed answer, reply to the honourable member's question as to whether the department has any over-all policy guidelines related to the determination of our space requirements.

At the present time we are in the process of completing a space inventory that we have, and it will provide us with information which would allow for more efficient capital planning in developing space policies, space scheduling to avoid overcrowding and cost allocation, preparing depreciation estimates, and so forth.

And the space inventory, it will be set up, well basically in two categories, one by function, that is classroom, laboratory, a dministration, and so forth, because the honourable member and honourable members of the committee would realize that a thousand square feet in one building at one facility may be quite suitable for a classroom space but if the height is inadequate then it can't be converted to use for instruction that requires some sizable equipment, or whatever.

So therefore it be categorized by function, and the inventory will also be categorized by department within the community college and within the community colleges, and then on the basis of that we'll arrive at the total space that we have, and as I have indicated earlier that this will assist us in the future planning of space utilization and making provision for any additional space that may at any time be required.

And I think I should stress the point, it would also assist us in making the most efficient and effective use of available space by having the d ata at our fingertips which we would have ready access to, and it would allow for quicker reassignment or allocation of space to make maximum use of the existing space and avoid the types of situations that the Honourable Member for Fort Garry may have been referring to last night when there are temporary space problems in a given department within a community college.

And on an over-all basis there may not be a space shortage but at a given point in time there may be in one particular program. So having this type of information at our disposal, a space inventory by function, by department, would allow for the rapid allocation or reallocation of existing space to provide for its most efficient use. MR. McGILL : Mr. Chairman, with respect to the Keewatin College at The Pas, how are they fixed for space? Are they adequately provided on current enrolments? Do they have space that's additional to their present requirements in terms of enrolment?

Jril 15 , 1975 1291 SUPPLY - CO LL EGES AND UNIVER SITIES MR.

HANUSC HAK: There is no space problem at Keewatin Community College at the present time, and the honourable member will know that Keewatin Community College is designed to serve quite a large geographical area of the Pro vince of Manitoba, and hence whatever additional space requirements that may arise by reason of increased enrolment, rather than want to expand the facility on the Keewat in campus at The Pas , we would rather move in the direction of establishing satellite centres throughout the North, as I believe I've made reference to in yesterday's debate. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I was interested in the Minister' s pointing out that they were thinking of satelli te operations, or have already included some satellite operations to the Community College at The Pas. There was a news service bulletin on the Community Educators Program that was to be set up by the Dakota-Ojibway Councils , and I wondered if this was the ki nd of a program that could have been included under the administrative umbrella of a community college such as Keewatin. MR.

HANUSC HAK: Well dtlJe nding on the shape and form or the content of the program that one would wish it to contain, the Community Educators Program, as well as a number of others, the honourable member may note, we will have opportunity to debate under Resolution 34 on Page 14 , Special Projects , and we'll be dealing with it then, and I'll have the opportunity to describe the program to the honourable members if they should wish it , and how it' s being delivered at the present time, or how it' s proposed to be delivered, and we'll have an opportunity to discuss the pros and cons of that style of delivery as opposed to any ot her.

MR, McGILL: Yes. Well then, Mr. Chairman, we can wait for the proper time in the estimates to debate that in specifics , but perhaps the Minister could indicate whether or not when this program was established as a pilot program to be administered away from the college system itse lf. Was there consideration given at that time to the possibility of it having been included with the Keewatin Community College administrative set-up? MR. HANUSC HAK: Well, Mr. Chairman, by and large that program is an off-campus program, so hence the space requirements are really minimum.

But I believe that we still are dealing with the space requirements , and as I indicated to the honourable member a few moments ago , that insofar as space requirements for instructional, for laboratory purposes , at Keewatin are concerned there is no problem at the present time, but we are aware of a developing need for additional student housing at The Pas for the Keewatin Community College students.

And it 's not for all students in general, but rather it' s for one group of students primarily, the married students , and at the present time discussions are under way with the other appropriate government agencies to enquire into the feasibility of providing proper and adequate housing accommodation for married students enrolled there. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PA TR ICK (Ass iniboia): Mr.

Chairman, I have several questions that I'd like to ask the Minister at this time, and I'm sure that in the area of post-secondary education taxpayers should know what they are paying for and what they're receiving in return. And in this area when one looks at the estimates , Mr.

Chairman, we look at the community colleges and we know that we have $20 million in grants as co mpared to 74 million for universities, and perhaps maybe we should atart getting concerned and maybe there shoul d be a better distributi on, and maybe it' s more desirable to have a better distribution if we are going to treat the community colleges as first-rate instituti ons, or are we still treating them as second-rate institutions , Mr. Chairman?

I know that we have some extremely good courses provided by these co lleges , and the Minister I beli eve should give an indication to the members of the House so me indication which courses have been most productive and most favourable from the point of employment area, and which ones were not as favourable , and I'm sure that he has some statistics on what areas were not.

I know that in some science courses and electrical courses that if you have a graduating class of 150 students or even less , I understand at ti mes that almost somebody from the east came and would hire the whole, most of the students that would move. And there is an indication that there is a strong demand - I know in the secretarial science course there's a waiting list for a year or so for anybody to graduate, so it' s another very popular , very popular course. And I understand that some of these graduates can start with Ap

1292 . April 15, 19 75 SUPPLY- COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIE S · (MR. PATRICK cont•d) • . . . , a salary of 8 to 9 thousand dollars, and you have quite· a few students from rur universities with a B,A, degree requesting on their applications $6, 000,. and sometimes have difficulty in getting employment, So my point to the Minister is that we should start treating these. as first-rate institutions, our community colleges; and he should have some form of evaluation which courses are favourable from the point of employment, and which ones are not, and perhaps there could be a reassessment.

I know that the point that the Mini ster has not indicated to the House, perhaps he can now, what is the operating cost per student in a community college as compared to lhe university, I• m sure this would be interesting to some of us because as I indicate we have an increase in grants to the universities from approximately 60 million to 74 million, which is $14 million, and only $1 million to the community colleges, so there•s a very great spread and a considerable amount of discrepancy, and perhap't: what was the increase in enrolment last year in those two areas, so we can have some better assessment, · So I am concerned and I know that I cannot be too critical of the Minister because he can say, well the community colleges are new in Manitoba, and he•s right, In 1969 I believe when tbe government renamed, I belleve'most of them, the Red River, and I know renamed one in the north, the Keewatin one, which there was sort of an interesting story to that, But I feel that we are turning out first-rate people from those colleges or at least some of the courses, the colleges, para-professionals of the future, and I would say in the majority of the courses probably there is a waiting list for these, in the majority of the courses there•s a waiting list for 'these graduates, So perhaps the Minister can have some evaluation of what's happening.

The other area that I am somewhat concerned- the Minister never mentioned- is our adult population, which we know we have very many changing att it u des at pr es ent time concerning all post-secondary graduation ... And in the coming years, not only now, we will need, we will need almost a type of a supermarket for education because there are so many changing conditions at the present time.

So that I feel an adult can select at a community co llege, or university, courses according. to his career, vocational or social or leisure needs, and this is what•s required, So there must be an ongoing sort of evaluation of the courses, and this is an area that the Minister has not indicated what has been going on. ·So I am concerned in the two areas: the present courses, the operating costs per student as compared to the other; and the adult retraining and the special needs tha t I•m concerned with, the special needs for ad ults for special courses in our community colleges.

So I hope that maybe- I know at the present time that many students sort of feel that maybe the community college is a second-rate institution, and I think it's the re�ponsibility of all of us and the Minister and the department to change that attitude, because I think they are first-rate institutions.

The Minister may, or must do some evaluation to tbe courses that are offered and from what courses there•s great opportunities for the students, So, the other area that perhaps I may mention to the Minister at the same time while he can answer those two questions to me, what opportunities are those institutions offering to a large core of people in the Inner Core of the City of Winnipeg, which we have a large number of young people, and several studies have been done by the Social Service audit, and there•s quite a volume of background material on these people where some of them are on welfare and receiving family allowances and other assistances, and yet in the last, say , 10 years we have not improved the lot of these people which this government prides itself on one area that it would so much for the less fortunate people who did not have an education, who didn•t have the proper housing facilities, and are any of these people channelled into any of the courses in these institutions?

And what have we done? I think Urs the responsibility of the Minister and of the government. Perhaps we can look into this area because they are young people, they can be trained- is there any kind of courses for these people that they can avail themselves to, and if they take these courses, is there job opportunities for them? So I know I have the highest regard for our community colleges, the courses that are very popular to most people that can come out of there and get jobs.

And I know that many of them are getting jobs with pretty good salaries, very high salaries, very high salaries, So I hope that the Minister can give me some answers. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Colleges and Universities. MR. HA NUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, in response to the request from the Honourable Member for Brandon West- who is not in the Chamber at the moment - he had asked for more

April 15 , 1975 1293 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR . HANUSCHAK cont• d) ...•. up-to-date enrolment figure s at our community colleges, Well the figure as of two weeks ago , March 31st enrolment at Red River Community Colleges the day program, 4, 518 student s, and 466 in the evening program on tha t particular day; 971 day students at Assiniboine , 260 evening; and 531 day students at Keewat in, and 1, 739 evening students on that particular day .

Now to respond to the questions put to me by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia, as I listened to the questions I had the impression that - and the distinct recollection - that some of them may have been answered last night in the course of debate , so therefore I would just like to suggest to the honourable member that whenever last night• s Hansard will be distributed in the House, he may find the answers to some of the question s, but I will point out to him which ones were answered and which ones I will attempt to answer now.

Firstly, he asked whether we are not treating our community colleges as second-rate by reason of the fact that more funds appear to be allocated to our universities than to our community colleges. Well, one cannot make a fair comparison just simply on that basis, just the number of dollars allocated to one school as opposed to ano ther, because one also has to take into account that the offering of a course of instruction what ever may be more expensive at one institution than at another.

And universities are expensive , they are much more expensive than our community colleges are, for a number of reaso ns; One, the teaching load of the uni versit y faculty is somewhat lighter than that of the community colleges because it is part of the faculty members, you know, conditions of his contract of employment that he devotes some portion of his time to research.

Generally speaking the salary levels of university faculty members are somewhat higher than tho se at our community colleges by reason of the fact that - well because the uni versity by its very nature demands a larger percent age or a larger ratio of higher trained people, or with more extensive training, than at our community colleges.

And I did mention that a university is also expected to involve itself in research, which over ana above the funding that may be received from various other sources to cover the cost of research , nevert heless does leave therefore some residual cost that has to be borne by the uni versity. The graduate prog·rams at the universit y also enhance the costs of a university program. So therefore one cannot really say that just because a university may receive more funds than a community college , that therefore we are regarding a community college as being second-rate .

A universit y institut ion is there to offer a cer tain type of education program for cert ain individuals who wish to avail themselves of it, and similarly a community college is there to offer the type of program that it is designed to offe r again to. meet cert ain needs of society on an individual and on a collective basis. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia asked if we have an operating cost on a per student basis.

Well as I indicated in response to another question that was asked of me a bit earlier, one would have to in some factions either reduce the cost or universit y operations on a per student per hour, or what ever, or on a per student per year, but both would have to be on the same base . And as I indicated the community colleges offer a whole range of courses of varying lengths which makes that type of comparison somewhat diff icult.

Now there is an ongoing evaluation, and the graduates as well as the non graduates who , as I indicated yest erday many, because of a demand for people with their type of training, as soon as they develop a marketable skill, you know, they may be out working before they complete the full course of studies. And the surveys that we•ve done on the graduate s and the non graduate s indicate a very high return on the dollar that• s spent on training them.

So really in that sense , and as I did indicate yesterday in dealing particularly with the Career Occupational Educat ional Courses, the percen tage of students who manage to find employment in the Province of Manitoba was very high, around the 90 percent mark, and they manage to find employment within a relatively short period of time afte r graduation and in a job related to their training, so on that basis the, you know, our analysis of the operations of our community colleges is very good. And it must be borne in mind too, Mr.

Chairman , that there are two partners in this, that in many of the courses that are offered we are the vendors of courses being purchased by the Federal Government through their Manpower program; tha t, you know, they are also involved in the placement of labour in the market and the people who are unemployed they register with the Manpower off ices, and through consultation upon the advice and counsel of the fe deral staff they are ref erred to our community colleges for training, and ref erred for

1294 April 15, 1975 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) •.•.• specific training, which they buy, for which they pay, so there are the two partne rs involved in it.

The P.onourable member - I .• , MR , CHAIRMAN: Order please , The hour being 4:30, I am interrupting the proceedings of the House in accordance with Rule 19 (2) for Private Members' Hour, and shall return at 8 p, m, this evening, Mr� Speaker, in accordance with Rule 92 of our House Rules we are now interrupting the proceedings of committee for Private Members' Hour, and will return to the Chair at 8 o' clock this evening, PRIVATE MEMBERSt HOUR MR .

SPEAKER: Thank you, Order please , Private Members' Hour on Tuesday , We are into Public Bills , Bill No, 12, proposed by the Honourable Member for Morris, The Honourable Member for Fort Ga rry, (Stand) Bill No, 21 proposed by the Honourable Member for Flin Flon, The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney, BILL NO . 21 - HORSE RACING COMMISSION ACT MR .

McKELLAR: Mr, Speaker, I would just like to say a few words on the second reading of this bill, ltm sorry the Member for Flin Flon isnrt in at the present time because hers the sponsor of the bill, and I was greatly interested in his knowledge of racing, and I was hoping that he would be in here at the present time but seeing he isnr t, lrm going to be very brief anyway.

Very brief, On Bill 21, and I must say at this present time that werre not voting against these bills because the fa ct that werre going to listen to what the people, the representation has to say, and I imagine that it still wont t change our minds because we've always been a great believer in the freedom of the individual association , and we're only hoping that the horses agree with the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, and thatrs our problem and we hope that he doesnt t go one direction and go to the left and they go to the right, as mentioned this afternoon in a speech by the Member for Fort Rouge.

MR . HARRY J .

ENNS (Lakeside): At the same time they•re hooked up to the same cart, MR, McKELLAR: Itm sure I know which direction the Minister will go anyway, But seeing that he isnrt the Minister guiding this particular industry now, it's the Minister of Tourism and Recreati on, and Itm sure that he will guide the horses on the right track, at least lrm hoping that he will anyway , But what it does, and we all know the harness racing industry had an unlimited amount of days of racing est ablished by the Commission , but the thoroughbreds were controlled at Assi niboia Downs, a limit of 56 days of racin g, and as we know Assi niboia Downs has changed hands this past year, that the new owner Mr, Wright, I guess, is anxious to expand his thoroughbred racing in Manitoba, and fo r that reason hers asking for an extension of days here, Now I donrt know how many days he wants, or how many days the Cabinet is going to give him, but thatrs something else that will be established in due time , So for those various reas ons, Mr, Speaker, IrU say that we will vote on this bill on second reading, and hope that the Cabinet do whatt s right for the industry and the Province of Manitoba.

MR , SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden, MR . MORRIS McGREGOR (Virden): I move , seconded by the Honourable Member from Gladstone , that the debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried MR , SPEAKER: Bill No, 22 proposed by the Honourable Member fo r Flin Flon, The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney.

April 15 , 1975 1295 BILL NO . 22 - HORSE RACING REGULATION ACT MR . McKELLAR: Mr. Speaker, 11 m just going to say a few words on this because this brings back ... well it doesn1 t bring back too many memories to myself, I did sit in on the debate up in the gallery here .

I was nominated in 157, May of 15 7, and we were waiting on elections to be called in •5 8, and the spring of t5 8 session, a grant of $600, 000' - I guess youtd call it a loan or a guaranteed bonded issue - of $600, OOO the government approved of towards the const ruction of Assiniboia Downs, and it was shortly after this $600, OOO was granted to As siniboia Downs to Mr.

Hardy, that the government of the day was defe at ed, and that maybe is a lesson for many governments , that maybe they went in the wrong direction , maybe they were going left when they should have been going right, Anyway I don•t know what happened, Mr. Speaker, Itd just like to say that we all realize what racing means to the Province of Manitob a, especia lly with North Dakota having no pari-mutuel, no racing; South Dakota having no pari-mutuel horse racing, they have dog racing with pari-mutuel; Minnesota having no horse racing, and the tremendous attraction this race track is to that part of United Stat es.

I guess the Minister of Tourism and Recreation could tell us maybe in dollars and cents what this means to the hotel industry and the restaurant industry, and also to the treasury of the Province of Manitob a through the pari-mutuels because I imagine many thousands of dollars are invested out there at As siniboia Downs hoping to get some return for the ir investment, but while they•re waiting on their return the government take s off a piece of the action, so it comes back into the treasury and they decide how theyire going to spend it, MR, ENNS: Touch on turtles just for a minute .•• MR.

McKELLAR: Well I would be glad to touch on turtles because we do, in Boissevain we do have a turtle race , the Canadian Turtle Championships in August, and ltd like to invite everybody here to go to Boissevain on that given weekend, and we do have gambling there at a certain stage . . . MR. ENNS: No , not now. MR . McKELLAR: . . . Sweepst akes we have on turtles. MR . ENNS: Does the government get a take on that ? MR, McKELLAR: The only thing is the government hasn' t got a piece of that action yet, But Itm sure they'll come up with some way to tax the turtles.

I only hope that the Minister lets us race the turtles thi s summer beca use it' s very important that we have the turtles for that particular race . My turtle , the turtle live raced the last few years has never got away fro m the st arting gate . I don't know whether he•s left or right or what he is, the turtle, but I haven' t been successf ul, and some day I hope tha t my turtle take s off with a shot and about 35 seconds later he comes across the winning line, but I mustnit be guiding the turtle the right way ; I•m either trying to inject too much speed into it or not enough.

Somewhere along the line this August I•m going to ... and I would hope that you all would come and race turtles in that ... We have also at Boissevain1on that given occasion we had the North American Champion ship, and the winning Ameri can turtle came fro m Galesburg, Illinois, and that created a lot of interest too, and so in Souris-Killarney we do have the top turtle racers in North America.

Now I would like to tell you about Wawa nesa, thati s a very important place in the harne ss racing business, and at the present time we have over 60 horses training the re at Wawa nesa and by the lst of May it should be over 100 horses training on the track there , and Wawa nesa I would consider is the harness racing capital of Manitob a.

Now we haven• t got stampedes like the Member for Morris, and we haven't got a lot of th ings but we do have ... and this harne ss racing in Wawa nesa is very important to that community along with the Wawane sa Mutual - and Itll talk about t:iat su bject on some other occasion in this House because that is very important too to the Province of Manitoba and the Dominion of Canada - but I think I•d like to just say that thi s Horse Racing Regulation Act, I think maybe that the government are doing the right thing because af ter all survival of one or the other I suppose will not neces sarily be caused by what the government does, the public will decide which survives, the thorough breds or the standard breds, and what length of season they should have .

The only thing that disturbs the harne ss race men they have had in the past . . . they started out in the Downs about the 20th or the 25th of August and went through till the end of Oct ober, having 48 days , 45 or 48 days of racing, harne ss racing, and they are a little disturbed about the ir season being shortened, but I suppose this will right itself eventually anyway, and I would imagine that they will work out some agreement between the thoroughbreds and the harne ss race men to the

1296 April 15, 19� BILL 22 (MR. McKELLAR cont'd) ••..• satisfaction of both. Now I realize that there is a Qigger take from the thoroughbreds at the pari-mutuel than there is from the harness racing people, partly because I think the people of Manitoba, the people of Winnipeg haven•t been educated yet to the harness race , that1s one of the reasons. As soon as they get accustomed to harness racing and the real thrills that are attached to harness racing, I'm sure that it will compare favourable with .•. also with the crowds and also with the take at the pari-mutuel, --(Inter je ction)-- Certainly certainly. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. HON. RENE TOUPIN (Miilister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs) (Spring field): Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is aware that there is no limitation on the number of days for harness racing either in the Act or Regulations. MR. McKELLAR: Okay. I said that but restrictive to thoroughb red racing at the present time and all youire doing is opening it up to ... I was trying to sugge st that either one .• . the public will decide the length of days, because they won't operate if they•re not going to make money. It's a simple fact of life.

I think it is only right and I'd like you to read, there was a • . • the Mayor of Winnipeg sat in that seat when I first came in here in '58 - no, the one right where the Minister is sitting right now. That' s right, where the Minister of Tourism and Recreation is sitting - but in the spring session of '58 he made a speech in here , and, you know, sometimes these speeches really amuse a person after so long, because I imagine the Mayor of Winnipeg today would realize how important Ass iniboia Downs is to Winnipeg, But at that time - I just want to read you the first - 11 Juba will fight longer season of racing.

Winnipeg• s Mayor Stephen Juba promised Thursday to do everything in my power to defeat the Provincial Government if it extends the horse racing season in Winnipeg from 28 to 42 days ." Twenty-eight to 42 days . Some people mentioned that they were tryingto have a Las Vegas in Winnipeg back in 19 58 , this is what they called it in those days .

You all remember when Polo Park Race Track was out there and now it's Polo Park Shopping Centre, but at that time - 19 58, Ass iniboia Downs was constructed and has been very success ful ever since , and I do wish the new owner of Ass iniboia Downs all the luck in the world in his endeavours because I understand hei s spending considerable amounts of money out there to improve his plant out there, and I• m sure that the public will appreciate his endeavours , Now, Mr.

Speaker, I don't think there's much else that I have to say other than I think that the Cabinet will have to use good judgment - ther e's 17 of you in the Cabinet, you're · going to make decisions from now on, youire taking some of the powers away from the Commission . I don1 t know how much power you•r e going to ... whether you're going to accept all decisions they make, we will never know as legislators , we will never know how much, what the Commission recommends, and what you accept, or what you change one way or the other, we will never know.

And I would think that it wouldn't maybe be a bad idea if Public Utilities - I do nit know what you'd call it, but some time during the session if the Commission could come before the committee out here, whether it's Public Utilities or what, Agri culture Committee - one of the committees anyway - and tell us just what is happening in the racing indus try in the Province of Manitoba. I would sugge st maybe to you, Mr. Minister, that you could arrange that.

Not that weire critical of what you•re doing but I think we would be better legislators if we were informed of what the Commission do for the industry out there at Ass iniboia Downs, and also with all the other race tracks in the Province of Manitoba, and for that very reason I think it would be a good move on your part. Mr. Speaker, I just go along in saying , as I said before, that weire voting for these bills and we'll listen to the representations in the committee. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR.

McGREGOR:· I move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Morris, that the debate be adj ourned. MO'l1ION presented and carried . MR. SPEAKER! Bill No. 4, the Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR . BANMAN: Can I have that matter stand, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Resolution No. 16 the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . 75

April 15 , 1975 RESOLUTION 16 - REBUILDING THE INNER CORE OF THE CITY OF WINNIPEG MR . AXW ORTHY: Mr, Speaker, moved by myself, seconded by the Member from As siniboia, that

WHEREAS rebuilding the inner core of the Cit y of Winnipeg in social and economic terms is more productive than public works; 1297 AND

WHEREAS building a sense of confidence and self-re spect in the inner city com munity by offering to residents and city officials financial incentives for the form of physical renewal chosen by inner city residents is more effective than programs chosen by the Provin cial Government; AND

WHEREAS a major emphasis of any inner city renewal program must be to provide incentives fo r inner city residents to assume responsibility for their own renewal to provide fin ancial assi stance for upgrading programs that cover a wide range of activities throughout the inner city; TH EREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the Government of Manitoba consider the advisability of enacting legislation to:

l) Creat e Community Economic Development Corporations to initiate the dev elopment of new housing, start up of new businesses, repair of older commercial areas , with the ob ject ive of be coming economically self- suff icient; 2) Establish and fund an Urban Development Bank to approve loans and grants for each project under the Community Economic Development program, and to provide assi stance with technical skills; this Urban Development Bank would also provide loans and grants to The City of Winnipeg for improvements in streets and open areas and for est ablishment of new public facilit ies and services; 3) Est ablish a Home Repair Program, fun ded with loans and grants from the Urban Development Bank, with the express purpose of home repair and purchase of older buildings in the inner city.

MOTION presented MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, MR . AXW ORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, this is the first in a series of three or four resolutions that I am presenting on behalf of the Liberals• group in the House, which are de signed basically, Mr. Speaker, to offe r for considerat ion in this House, an alternative approach to the very serious problems of deterioration in the older parts of the City of Winnipe g, And let me say, Mr.

Speaker, at the outset that I specifically choose the words "older parts of the city" because from the previous discussions we•ve had in this House when we•ve talked about core renewal, itts obvious that any efforts that the Provincial Government has described thus far are highly circumscribed to a very small and very narrow slice of the parts of Winnipe g, and that it is this exclusion which in

part is one of our reasons for proposing alternativ es, be cause this covers much too narrow and limited a range of people and doesn't in any way aff ect the kinds of diff iculties and problems being encountered by large numbers of people in the west end of Winnipe g, and the Fort Rouge area and Elmwood, in Wolseley areas, and so forth ; that there are just many other areas of the city which are also suffe ring decline, suffe ring a cert ain degree of deprivation, lack of services, and that any announcement that we have re ceived so far has confine d itself exclusively to an area concentrated really within the boundaries of No tre Dame and Main Street and the C.

P.R. tracks . But, Mr. Speaker, our major concern is not just the boundaries of the area, even though that is important, the major concern that we have is that if we are going to begin spending public money and undertaking public action in this field of renewal , then we should do it the right way , And we begin by doing it the right way first by finding out what are the causes, where are the problems.

And one of the mistake s that we have been making time after time , city af ter city throughout Nort h America, has been the assumption that the way to renew the inner cities of North America is to develop public works projects, public housing projects, physical renewal projects, and yet the evidence time after time afte r time in almost every case , is that such approache s are simply placebos. They are simply false pills, that simply are sugar-coatin g, and they really have very limited impact. While I wouldn•t want to impute motives to this government, Mr .

Speaker, I would suggest this, that the proposals we•ve heard so far are simply designed for symbolic value; that they are designed primarily to try to show that something is being done, but demonstrate very clearly that there has been almost virtually no basic understanding of the central problem of the central parts of Winnipe g, because if there was an understanding then a very diffe rent set of strategies

1298 RESOLUTION 16 (MR. AXWORTHY conttd) • and alternatives would have been developed. April 15, 1975 The facts of life, Mr. Speaker, are this, that the problems of the inner City of Winnipeg is that they basically have simply no economic value.

That the capacity of the inner cities to have any sort of economic cap�city to be self-reliant, to be self-supporting and to maintain some sort of economic dynamic, is virtually gone; that the history of Winnipeg is the same as many other cities where jobs have escaped to the suburbs, services have escaped to the suburbs, employment has escaped to the suburbs, major businesses have escaped to the suburbs, leaving simply in its wake large numbers of dispossessed people and numerous numbers of social agencies, each of which is trying to provide a band-aid to what is a problem fundamentally of lack of income, and that we have simply, in a sense, cordoned off parts of our city on the as sumption that they are almost similar to the old philosophy of setting up reservations, that as long as they get enough transfer of government funds into them to keep people happy, then you don•t have to really do anything serious about reconstruction.

So the import and the direction of what we• re trying to promote in this r�olution and others is to f"md a way of restoring three essential values to .the inner City of Winnipeg. First is income: The ability for people to acquire and maintain their own economic wel fare, and rather than putting vast and large, increasingly large amounts of money in support ing a large service, social service, welfare service network, we think that it is time we applied our capital to providing for an economic development approach to the problems of our cities, to give people the capacity to do for themselves. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker, it's to offset in a sense the vacuuming of economic activity from the central part of the city to the outer core. We see for example, Mr. Speaker, in the present city budgets - and in this case I concur with some of the criticisms that have been raised by members of the NDP about the activity of the City of Winnipeg-.

If you look at their budgets, you•ll find that in many cases in areas like social services, recreation, and so forth, that the ratio of expenditures in suburban areas to central city areas is three to one, four to one, which simply shows that the power of the annexation, of the consolidation of this city now, the political power resides in the suburbs, and they are using their political power basically to serve their own constituents - which is only natural. And, Mr.

Speaker, we said this last year in this House that one of the serious problems with Unicity was that it achieved very different ends than what was conceived of by this government when they brought in the bill, and what they achieved basically was to consolidate and concentrate power in the suburbs of Winnipeg to the detriment of the older parts of the city. And we see not only budget examples, but we see even councillors from the ICEC leaving on that issue alone, and I think there•s been enougiJ survey.

So that is the second thing, is to restore some, provide some investment into that area which is being depleted. And thirdly, Mr. Speaker, is to simply try to provide some capacity of giving people power over their own lives; the restoring of power to make and break as people in the inner city want to do it, not as they are told how to do it, And that is the fundamental problem with the Provincial Government approaches, that it's talked about public works buildings and public hous ing; itls giving some thing to somebody, it's not providing the means for them to do it themselves. And therefo�, Mr.

Speaker, our objectives are simply to try and provide that kind of stimulus. We propose doing it, Mr.

Speaker, first through the idea of setting up community develoP ment corporations, which is not a new idea other than in Winnipeg, It has been tried --(Inter jection)-- No, it has not, It has also been tried in parts of Northern Manitoba, in fact, and the Minister of Urban Affairs made an interesting speech about it though three or four weeks ago, He got up and he said, after we had spoken on the Throne Speech and briefly touched these points, he said, "What•s so different about that, I mean, we•re doing it up north." Well that was my very question, Mr. Speaker.

If we can try to provide some innovative approach to the develop ment of people in the North, why in God•s sake,-are we forsaking the city in doing it? Why can•t we apply some of the same method in approaches there, Now I hope we wouldn•t repeat some of the same mistakes that occurred up north because I don•t think the program up there is very well operated or applied, But the principle is the same. And it has been applied in many parts across Canada, There are examples that have been undertaken in Vancouver.

To give you one example, the Strathcona Development Corporation in East Vancouver, working with a capital of a million and a· half dollars from the Federal Government, undertook and has repaired close to 700 homes

1.pril 15 , 1975 1299 RESOLUTION 16 (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd ) •..• ,i n that area; is building new housing, and is now setting up its own economic enterpr ises. And the Strathcona thing got started basi cally in • , . the reason they got started is because the Federal and Provincial and Cit y Governments of Vancouver were going to start in to do a big public housing project in that Chinese community, and the Chinese people said, we donrt want public housing , give us the same amount of capital your re going to invest and let us do it ourselves . Well they have turned that community around, Mr. Speaker, So Ws not an American thing, we're doing it in Strathcona, in Vancouver. There have bee

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-2-47
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 2nd hansardpdf 47.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f65049db6ad6c8c036853104ea5937949e1a6733

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