Volume XLI Fr.ida y • ~ . Province of Newfoundland FORTY -FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript] Number 22 27 Apr il 1990

The House met at 9:00a.m . MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR. SPEAKER: Th~~ han. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the Honourable House that fhli:1iln Excellencies the Governor General of Canada and Mrs. Ramon Hnatyshyn will pay an official visit to this Province on May 14th and 15th. This will be the first visit to Newfoundland by the Governor General since he was sworn into office on January 29th of this year and we look forward to extending a warm welcome to the new Vice-Regal couple.

Following the official welcoming ceremonies in Front of Confederation Building on Monday afternoon, May 14th, Their Excellencies will be invited to visit this Honourable House in session, and I am sure all Honourable Members will look forward to this historic occasion. Other special euents planned for the Uice-Regal couple will include a reception and dinner at Government House, a civic reception hosted by the Mayor of St. John 1 s at City Hall, and a luncheon with the members of Executive Council. A more detailed programme will be released to the public as soon as all protocol arrangements have been completed.

MR. SPEAKER: L1 April 27, 1990 Uol XLI The han. the LE!ader of the Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT : Thank you, Ml". SpeakE!r. I am sure I speak for all Memb(O~rs on this side of the House when I join with the Premier in saying how delighted we are to know that fheir Excellencies will be visiting Newfoundland starting on May 14th. We certainly look forward to the visit. The first official visit to the Province of Their Excellencies since His Honour was sworn in as Governor General of Canada.

And I know that people of Newfoundland and Labrador look forward to the visit and will ensure that a warm welcome is accorded the Vice-Regal couple. MR. SPEAKER: The--h0n:·--fhe Minister of Mines and Energy. DR. GIBBONS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to advise the Honourable Members of this House of a change in po1icy which has been adopted by Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro with regard to small hydroelectric developments in the Province. At present, Newfoundland Hydro only relinquishes its franchise water rights on projects of 1 MW or less, for example the Mary 1 s Harbour project in Labrador.

The new policy, which is effective immediately, is that Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro is prepared to relinquish its franchise right, when appropriate, on any hydroelectric project up to a maximum size of 10 MW 1 s at a 60 per cent capacity factor. This would mean, for example, that in the future, projects such as the 8 MW Paradise River project on the Burin Peninsula, which cost about No. 22 Rl

$24 - m:i .11i.on, couJ.d be buiJ.t by the priv ate sector and/or local groups rather than Hydro its elf. Mr. Speaker, in addition to permitting the private sector to develop sites up to 10 MW in size, Newfoundland Hydro is also prepared to purchase the resulting energy, on a long-term contractual basis, provided the cost is not above Hydro's alternatives.

The exact pricing formula would have to be worked out to take into account all relevant factors regarding a specific project but a long-term contract from Hydro to purchase the output should be a significant help to private developers in arranging the necessary financing . Newfoundland Hydro is also prepared to consider proposals from developers for projects larger than 10 megawatts in size but would only be prepared to relinquish the rights if, after careful revietJJ, it tJJas determined that Hydl"O itself did not intend to develop the project over a reasonable period of time. Mr.

Speaker, this new policy of Newfoundland Hydro will provide a very significant opportunity for the private sector to invest in the production of hydroelectricity in the Province and it is hoped that a number of projects can be initiated over the next several years. Needless to say, Government is pleased that this new policy has been adopted by Newfoundland Hydro as it will open up opportunities for local groups to develop our resources. MR. HEWLETT: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Green Bay. L2 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI MR. HEWL ETT : Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Given rE!Cent ratE! hE•aring s at the Public Utili ties Board, Mr. SpE~aker, especia11y tAd.th rE•gard to the profits of Newfoundland Light and Po!AJer, suggestions from sorne people that maybe the entire production of hydroelectricity should be nationaliz ed. I received this statement tJJith a degree of caution . Ther e were a number of environmental objectors to the eight megawatt site at Paradise River and we have to be careful that a lot of our small and medium sized rivers are not dammed to provide electricity to the detriment of the environment .

While I rea1ize that a small company could probably do Paradise River project on a more cost efficient basis than a monolithic company like Newfoundland Hydro, I do have an environmental concern at about a proliferation of such sites. Certainly environmental impact statements would be necessary on them all. One wonders as well if private companies involved would be allowed by the Public Utilities Board greater levels of profit to Newfoundland Hydro as in the case of Newfoundland Light and Power, and this is not necessarily good for consumers. Mr.

Speaker, let us not dam all our small rivers, let the Government repair its relations with the Province of Quebec and get on with the Lower Churchill development. Thank you very much. MR. FLIGHT : Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. No. 22 R2

MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, the House IAJill recall that I think in the first week of December. if not indeed the first day of December, Abitibi-Price announced the shutdown of No. 6 Machine in it. 1 s Grand Falls rn:i.ll. fhe announcement caused, and understandably so, a great deal of uncertainty and anxiety in Central Newfoundland. The Premier immediately struck a Ministerial Committee made up of the Ministers of Employment and Labour, Development and myself to deal t.uith all aspects of the shutdown of No. 6. The first role of that Commit tee. Mr.

Speaker, was to help facilitate an acceptable separation agreement for the workers affected. The settlement was effected and I might say, Mr. Speaker. that both the union and management expressed some appreciation for the role that Committee played. Another priority of the Committee was to determine Abitibi 1 s commitment to the long-term future of mill to determine its plans for restoring, rebuilding or any expenditures they have foreseen in the - just a short

preamble to the statement - that they have seen with regards to their commitment to the long-term viability and future of the mill. During those various meetings with the Committee, Mr. Speaker, Abitibi indicated an expenditure of over $100 million over a ten year period. I subsequently announced in detail Abitibi 1 s intentions, their spending schedule, and with regard to their future, rebuilding and modernization plans. Mr. Speaker. understandably so, again, there was some skepticism with regard to some of the announcements, and it L3 April 27. 1990 Vol XLI is from that background, M1~. SpeakE!r. that.

I am pleasE!d to make the following announcement. I want to announce to this hon. House this morning that Abitibi-Price has approved the construction of an $11.5 million efflu~nt clarifier at its Grand Falls newsprint mill. Construction will begin as soon as final engineering details have been completed. This confirms a part of the capital expenditure plans outlined to the task force of Ministers at meetings with senior officials of Abitibi-Price earlier this year. This major expenditure is evidence bf the companies commitment to environmental improvements at Grand Falls.

The company states, 1 The installation of the clarifier in conjunction with the existing wood room effluent treatment system will allow the mill to conform to a requirement outlined in an agreement between the Provincial Government and the company to reduce suspended solids to thirteen kilograms per ton by June 1 9 9 1 . The House wi 11 note that that is just in a little over a year. Mr. Speaker. this announcement is welcome news for the people of Central Newfoundland. as it is surely welcome news for the Government of Newfoundland.

It is one step in the process of restoring the Grand Falls mill to a more solid foundation for the future, and with the co-operation of labour, management, and Government, I am sure this goal can be achieved. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! No. 22 R3

MR. SPEAKER : fhe hon. Lhe Leader. MR. SIMMS : Opposition House Mr. Speaker, I have to say at Lhe beginning that it is rather interesting that the Minister

preambled his Ministerial Statement. The

preamble was lengthier than his statement and of course he did not provide us with a copy of his

preamble, so we were a bit taken aback by what he was reading because we did not know what he was talking about. Nevertheless, it became evident after he finished his

preamble, it became very evident that it was a very weak attempt by the Minister to try to give some credibility to this Cabinet Committee that was established, I suppose nearly five months ago by the Premier in this House, December 18th, becauSE! this particular Cabinet Committee has not even been to Grand Falls yet to meet with the people who are affected out there. They have not even been out there to meet with the people who are affected, so I mean it has been nothing short of a farce, this particular Cabinet Committee. Now Mr.

Speaker, the announcement, the so called big announcement by the Minister is really old news, it is all old news and he should know it full well, but I guess again it is an attempt to give some kind of an impression that something is happening.

This agreement, this announcement from the Minister this morning that Abitibi is going to spend $11 million on this environmental improvement is part of a requirement that was reached in an agreement between the previous Administration three years ago I L~ April 27, 1990 Vol XLI think it Ll.Jas, three years ago between l:he company and the Government, and that requirement was announced then three years ago that they were going to do this, so he is obviously going to attempt to drag up anything he can to try to make it look as if something positive is happening. His statement I guess says it all.

It is one step in the process of restoring the Grand Falls Mill to a more solid foundation for the future, but the question that the pE!ople in Grand Falls have been asking is what about the future of Abitibi in Grand Falls, and the Minister has still failed to answer that. MR. FLIGHT: Mr . Speaker, on a point of order . MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order, The hon . the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture . MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the han. Member for Grand Falls did not mean to deliberately mislead the House when he stated emphatically that the Committee of Cabinet have not been in Grand Falls.

I want to assure the House, Mr. Speaker, and inform the Member that the Deputy Ministers have been in Grand Falls on various occasions preparing the reports for the Ministers, and the Ministers met in Grand Falls, Mr. Speaker - I want to set the record straight - met in Grand Falls with all the unions affected including the International Leadership in Grand Falls at the Mount Peyton Hotel, shortly after the Committee was struck, and I want to set the record straight because I think it should be. MR. SPEAKER: No. 22 R~

~ Order, please! There is no point of order, it is just a point of clarification that can comE! at a later point. This is not the appropriate place for it. flN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. SPEAKER: T--·-fla -ve ____ r_uTed, there is no point of order. MR. SIMMS: A point of order . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order . MR. SIMMS: My point of order is that the Minister is misleading the House too, because what I said was the Cabinet Committee have not been out to meet with affected workers. MR. SPEAKER : Again, there is no point of order . The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. DECKER: Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of my colleague, the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations, I would assume her eyesight is better than mine as this was done in her office. I usually have the big print. If I am squinting it is because it was not typed by my secretary. On behalf of my colleague the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations I would like to highlight for this hon. House and for the public attention that Government has proclaimed April 28, 1990 as a Day of Observance for workers killed, injured or disabled on the job. LS April 27, 1990 Vol XLI For thE! past SE!VeraJ. yr:!al~s, thE!

Canadian Labour Congress has observed April 28th as a day to draw attention to the sacrifice which many of our workers have to pay in earning a living for themselves and their families. The Minister responsible for occupational hea1th and safety, has asked that. I indicate l:he support of herSE!lf, her Department and Government generally, for efforts directed at ensuring that effective measures are put in place to alleviate such suffering. rhe Minister is not in the House of Assembly today, in fact, because she is attending a Newfoundland Industrial Health and Safety Association convention in Gander .

We are very conscious that effective occupational health and safety standards should be in place not only to prevent such tragic loss of life and disability. but also to ensure that fair and equitable compensation programs exist to protect workers and their families where such tragedies do occur. Our occupational health and safety legislation contains three important provisions designed to assist workers in preventing injury and disease on the job.

They are: the right of workers to refuse to work in unsafe places; the right to be informed of existing or potential job hazards; the right to participate on joint workplace health and safety committees. These provisions provide a significant deterrent to unsafe and unhealthy working conditions. I bring this to the attention of all hon. Members to encourage them to focus on the workers and their families who have suffered from No. 22 RS

workplace highlight Government, to reduce occurrences. accidents and to the effort by tJJorkers and employers. those unfortunate It is appropriate that today we renew our common commitment to making workplaces of this Province safer and healthier and that management, labour, and Government, work together to bring about accident-free workplaces. Thank you . SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : The han . the Member for Harbour Main. MR. DOYLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . We certainly would want to associate ourselves, Mr.

Speaker, with the announcement made by the Minister in the observance of April 28, as a day of observance for workers killed and injured in the workplace. It is a very important proclamation the Minister has made. Too often, of course. we do not fully appreciate the dangers in the workplace and we always have to be cognizant of the need to maintain very high levels and very high standards of safety on the job. It is incumbent on each and every one of us, and it is especially incumbent on the Government to be very, very supportive of workers and employers who initiate these types of programs.

The construction industry, of that course, is an industry immediately comes to mind that has a very hazardous environment.

We not only L6 April 27. 1990 as one working have to Vol XLI be atJJare of the heavy Financial costs of accidents in the workplace, alAJare, as involved. but we have l:o be weJ.l, of the human cost Now, I do not want to throuJ a uJet blanl<et. on l:he staternE!nt made by the MinistE!r today, bE!CauSE! it is a very, very positive statement, but if there is one inconsistE!ncy in what the Minister is saying today and in what the Minister, or the Government, is actually doing, it has to be in a report that is coming out of Gander, which is the convention the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations is attending, the Newfoundland Industrial Health and Safety Association Convention.

The 400 delegates at that convention, Mr. Speaker, have learned over the last couple of days that the Government is cutting approximately $40,000 from the budget of the NIHSA, the Newfoundland Industrial Health and Safety Association. So there is an inconsistency. The Government is proclaiming April 28 as a day of observance for lAJorkers on the job who are in very hazardous working conditions and, at the same time, they are cutting funding to this particular association. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. gentleman's time is up . MR. DOYLE: Mr.

Speaker, we Government will see this convention is weekend, to reinstate SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! No. 22 hope the fit, after over this that funding. R6

Oral Questions MR. RIDEOUT : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Yesterday, in this House, we were able to ascertain that the Chairman of the Economic Recovery Commission, Dr . House, had, on March 22nd, written to the Federal Minister of Fisheries and Oceans. Mr. Valcourt, with a detailed list of specific development projects for Newfoundland and Labrador for, to use Dr.

House 1 s own words, 1 I am taking the liberty of writing to you about our Government 1 s response to the current severe resource crisis that confronts the fishing industry in this Province . 1 That was the gist and the purpose of the correspondence. Mr . Speaker, I want to ask the Premier this question. Could the Premier tell the House whether or not the focus of Dr .

House 1 s proposals to the Federal Government was to provide economic development alternatives for communities where fish plants have already been announced for closure in a few months time, or other closures that will likely occur in the future. or were the proposals which were submitted by Dr. House actually a development wish list for the whole of Newfoundland and Labrador? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: None of it is right or accurate . L7 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI Mr . Speaker. Dr . Hou se carne to rne and sugg ested , in fact, that hE! writ e the Pr ime Minister. Dr .

House is the Chairman of the Economic Recovery Commission, and he wanted to draw th e att ention of the national Government to the needs in this Province. He himself was participating, along with the Memb ers of the Provincial Government Task Force on fisheries rE!Sponse, and had been having meetings and putttng forward proposals, so I suggested that if he wished. a rnore appropriate way to do it would be for him to write the new Minister of Fisheries. Really it was on that basis that he did so, but the original draft of the letter that I saw, in fact, if I recall correctly, was directed to the Prime Minister.

The Province put forward its own proposals in varying negotiations and discussions. and the agreement the Province made with the Federal Government, with Mr , Crosbie at the time, in early January, was that the two Task Forces would work together and jointly develop this was to be developed jointly, on a joint basis- a proposal for dealing with the fisheries . And that is what they were doing, until about the end of February. MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker, I come back again to the question I just asked the Premier and quote again the following sentence from Dr.

House 1 s letter. 1 I am taking the liberty of writing to you about our Government 1 s response to the current severe resource crisis that confronts the fishing industry in this Province. 1 No. 22 R7

NotAl, I rnust ask the Premier again, Mr. Speaker, out of the several development project proposals Dr. House proposed to the Government of Canada for consideration, were those proposals focused on communities where plants are closed and ar'e announced to close and wi .ll close in the future, or was it. just a wish list for the whole of the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, to the best of my knowledge they were not focused on the communities concerned - they were not focused. Dr.

House has a responsibility for economic recovery in small and medium-sized business and enterprise activities throughout the whole of the Province and not just the communities where fish plants were closed. But he has a particular responsibility there as well. But, to the best of my knowledge, it was not focused on them and was not intended to be. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker, Dr.

House 1s own letter makes it clear that he is writing to respond about our Government 1 s response to the current severe resource crisis that confronts the fishing indus try in this Province, and that affects a number of communities, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, would the Premier C011f"irm to this House that Dr.

House 1s proposals contain nothing for Grand Bank, nothing for Gaultois, nothing for Trepassey, nothing for L8 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI rwillingate, they contai ne d nothing; thoSE! proposals conta:l .nNI nothing for those communitie s where fish plants hav~ already closed down or will close down over the next sevE •ral months, that this package really is a design to gut rural Newfoundland and Labrador and to force resettlement from those rural regions to the urban areas of Ne wfoundland and Labrador? Is that not what this is all about? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: No, Mr. Speaker.

The Leader of the Opposition is totally wrong and is totally misguided in his proposition on the matter. Dr. House was not focusing on those communities; Dr. House was not saying these are the proposals put forward for those communities, but neither was he excluding those communities. And to deal specifically with the question of rural Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Speaker, he should go back and talk to the master from whom he is now taking instructions. I know they are running interference for the Federal Government.

Because they are not likely to come up with a proper proposal to deal with the fisheries crisis, the Opposition is now running interference for their Federal friends, or, at their request, they are trying to pretend that the Provincial Government is not doing what it should. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that my great difficulty is persuading the Federal Government to give emphasis to rural Newfoundland. I have to fight constantly with Mr. Crosbie to give emphasis to rural Newfoundland. It is an ongoing struggle that I have with Mr. No. 22 R8

... Crosbie, to give emphasis . MS VERGE: Give us the evidence . PREMIER WELLS: I will produce the evidence, and again you might rush to change the party name when I do produce the evidence. ?0~-~-9N ..:___lll E~.JL~~ -§. : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have to point out to all hon. Members that Question Period is not a forum for debate. Question Period is a period to solicit information, and I want hon. Members to remember that. AN HON. MEMBER : It was just getting good. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, if the Premier thinks he is going to deter us from doing our job in pointing out the incompetence of this Government, then he has another thought coming to him. He can make all the innuendo and the veiled threats he likes, the questions are going to keep coming. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Premier - MR. SIMMS: He is a master at it. MR. RIDEOUT: Yes, he is a master at it. We said yesterday what the Premier is L9 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI a master at, Mr ·. Speaker, deflecting it. Now, Mr.

Speaker, let mE! ask the Premier this: Would the Premier confirm that out of a package totalling $443.2 million, submitted by Dr. House to the Federal Minister on March 22, a total of $64.6 million or less than 16 per cent of that total package, the total dollar value of less than 16 per cent - you would have to stretch your imagination to even find that amount - less than 16 per cent of the total package actually were fisheries related projects? And does this not confirm, Mr.

Speaker, that the view of this Government is that the fishery is dead; that the fishery is not worth propping up in Newfoundland and Labrador; and is not the message to hundreds of communi ties and thousands of people in this Province that you had better be prepared to be uprooted, you better be prepared to move, you better be prepared to get out of rural Newfoundland? Is that not the message from the document, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: No, Mr. Speaker. The message is just the opposite. I have already emphasized again and again, in answer to the hon.

Leader of the Opposition's question, that this was not a letter written by Dr. House to deal specifically with fisheries matters. Dr. House was writing - AN HON. MEMBER: That is what it said. PREMIER WELLS: Well, I disagree. That is the Member's

interpretation of it. No. 22 R9

But I will read - AN HON _,_ MEMBER: (Inaudible). PREMIER WELLS: It does not, and what MembE!r quoted does not It was not intended to - .so~s-~.91L._ .~EM!LS_~s : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER WELLS: the han. say that. Mr. Speaker. Dr. House is addressing his responsibility in terms of economic diversification. Maybe hon.

Members opposite cannot really grasp this concept, maybe they cannot understand the concept. but one of the things this Government identified eight months ago and put before the Federal Government was the need to diversify economic opportunities to prevent the total reliance of this Province on fisheries. We cannot have our population virtually totally reliant on fisheries; we have to diversify opportunity. Maybe Members opposite do not understand that. AN HON. MEMBER : They do not. PREMIER WELLS: Maybe it will take another few years. or another election or two, before they come to understand it. But. Mr.

Speaker. that is the purpose and thrust of it. I say, and emphasize again, that this Government is putting in place, for the first time in eighteen years. a commitment to rural Newfoundland to provide for economic development in rural Newfoundland. LlO April 27. 1990 Vol XLI SOME HON . MEMBERS : ffe -ar. hear! PREMIER WELLS : One of the problems I have is dealing with the cohorts of the Members opposite, in Ottawa, in particular with Mr. Crosbi .e, in getting an commitment to support rural Newfoundland. Every ti.ITIE• I turn around to try and give some emphasis to rural NewfoundJ.and.

I run into resistance in that direction, who wants to concentrate everything in the capital city area. Well, we cannot do that. We have to develop rural Newfoundland and provide for economic development in other areas of the Province. MR. SIMMS: Nobody can get along with you, boy . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader Opposition. t1.!L___~!_D E 0 \.JT : Mr. Speaker. I think becoming more and more every day that nobody along with this Premier. of the it is obvious can get I come back to the letter and the Premier • s statement.

It wiJ.l be a very long. long day in the future before you see the unemployed workers from Grand Bank or Gaultois coming out over the White Hills ski resort in Clarenville, Mr. Speaker. That is economic diversification. I must quote for the Premier again. Dr. House says, 1 I am taking the liberty of writing to you about our Government 1 s response to the current severe resource crisis that confronts the fishing industry in this Province . 1 The Premier says Dr. House did not say that, but there No. 22 RlO

it "is in black and white. Would the Premier tell the House, if this wish list is. in fact, accepted by the Government of Canada, what answer does the Premier have for the people of Grand Bank? What answer does he have for the people of Gaultois? What anslJJer does he have for the people of Twillingate? And. next year, if there is a further reduction and Further plant closures. what answers will he have for the people in Burgee. the peop1e in Triton. or the people in other places where plants are closed down? fhe people. Mr. Speaker. deserve an answer. What answer does the Premier have for those people? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Mr. SpeakE!r, I am hesitant to provide the detail of the proposals we have put to the Federal Government, and hesitant to suggest one of the things we have in mind for the Grand Bank area of the Province, for example, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition mentioned Grand Bank - because I am afraid the Federal Government, even though it may not cost them a cent to do it, the Federal Government may resist, because thus far they have res is ted doing it .

It is within their power to make it available for us to provide real opportunity for economic development, not only in Grand Bank, but in other areas of the Province. But the Grand Bank area, affected by this shutdown, is an area that could particularly benefit from this particular proposal. So far we have gotten no positive response from the Federal Government, even though that proposal might not cost them any significant dollars.

Lll April 27, 1990 Vol XLI I am hesitant to discuss it at the rnornE•nt, because I haVE! to bE• reasonably courteous to the Federal Minister to whom we have submitted these detailed proposals. I have to be reasonably courteous to the Minister with whom we are dealing, Mr. Speaker, but the proposals have been put forward and they have been put forward in detail. Contrary to what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition says, this was just Dr. House doing this of his own merit. He was not putting forward the Government 1 s position, he was putting forward proposals for economic development.

The Government itself put forward, during detailed discussions through the Committee, proposals for economic diversification, proposals for dealing directly with fisheries enhancement and improving the viability of fisheries, and, in the end, we put forward a detailed ' written proposal. MR. SIMMS: When? Three weeks ago? PREMIER WELLS: About three weeks to a month ago . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, it is interesting to see the Premier try to skate away from his economic czar who says, 1 I am responding to give you our Government 1 s response. 1 Those are the gentleman 1 s words, Mr Speaker. MR. SIMMS: Tell him what he said. again. MR. RIDEOUT : No. 22 Read it Rll

1 ! am taking the writing to you Government 1 s response liberty about to of OLIJn Lhe current severe resource that confronts the industry in this Province. 1 SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. RIDEOUT : crisis fishing That is exactly what he said. Now, Mr. Speaker, the truth is starting to hurt over there this morning. Normally you have one jumping at you, this morning you have a half dozen over there jumping at you. The truth is really getting through to them this morning, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have pointed out to hon.

Members in the past, and I point out again, the difficulty when we get interjections and interruptions; it makes it difficult for the Chair, or at least the person in the Chair, to follow the developments. I would ask hon. Members to please co-operate and refrain from interrupting either the person asking the question or the person answering the question. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . With all of them coming at me at the one time, I really need Your Honour 1 s protection this morning. Mr. Speaker, Dr.

House made another startling statement in this particular document of March Ll2 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI 22, to the Federal Minister of Fisheries. It is contained in l:he second last paragraph of his letter, and lest the Premier or the Government House Leader jump out of their skin and accuse me of quoting something wrong, let me read what Dr. House had to say. I quote: 1 Many plants are on the verge of bankruptcy, including several which have operated successfully for years. If they all close, thousands of plant workers and fishermen will become unemployed.

The Provincial Government is attempting to establish guidelines to discriminate between plants which are in difficulty due to the resource crisis through no fault of their own, and those which are examples of poor management and genuine long-term overcapacity. We need to save the former for the sake of the long-term viability of the Newfoundland fishing industry and for the communi ties and people that depend upon it. A special Federal/Provincial Fish Plant Emergency Program is needed immediately to deal with this crisis. 1 MR. SPEAKER: order, p"I'ease!

I would like to remind the Leader of the Opposition of our own Standing Order 31(d): 1 0ral questions must not be prefaced by the reading of letters, telegrams, newspaper extracts or

preambles of any kind. 1 I refrain from doing that normally, but the Leader of the Opposition is on to a supplementary and it seems as though his quotation is a rather lengthy one. I would ask the Leader of the Opposition to try and proceed to his question. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. No. 22 Rl2

MR. RIDEOUT" : 'fFlank · you: --Mr. Speaker . I appreciate Your Honour's ruling, and I certainly will concur with it. ' The ·plants nE:~ e d hE! l p to k e e p operating until the resource recoVE!rs.' That is quote unquote, Mr. Speaker. from Dr. House's letter.

Let me ask the Premier, in view of the fact that the Minister of Fisheries has stated publicly that the reason for the failure of Oceana Seafoods in Twillingate was because of the lack of resource, why did not this Government, consistent with the philosophy outlined in this particular paragraph, provide financial assistance to that Company so it could operate this year? MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just to set the record straight, the Leader of the Opposition read a major paragraph from Dr.

House's letter but he left out the first sentence of it; he pic ked it up only at the second sentence. Here is what the first sentence of the letter says: 'The second crucial issue that is not being adequately addressed is the present plight of inshore fish plants and fishermen in several regions of the Province, and the Federal Government again has been failing miserably to discharge its responsibility and address that crisis.' We have been pressing them to do it and taking the burden in this Province. Mr. Speaker. Ll3 April 27. 1990 Vol XLI Mr.

Speaker, the Gov ernment has. in every single case where any fish plant has sought help, look ed at it. i.n d etail . In every case where a fish plant is deserving of help or a community can be helped or job opportunities can be saved on a reasonable ba sis, this Gov ernment has help ed and will continue to help . T he Government will not , however, take taxpayers money and pump more and more and endless dollars into it with a virtual cer tainty that it will not succeed, or that it will just get into further financial difficulty. That is called the Sprung syndrome, Mr. Speaker, and we abandoned that approach .

MR . SPEAKER: The han . the Leader of the Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries, in resign, did not approach, did he? SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT : threatening to call it a Sprung Mr. Speaker, re the paragraph I just quoted for the Premier, let me ask the Premier this: Is it the policy of the Government to allow the future of the fishing industry in Newfoundland and Labrador, particularly those small seasonal plants. to be decided by this kind of approach? Secondly, Mr. Speaker, who is going to make those decisions?

Who is going to do the assessments to determine whether there is a management problem. whether the real problem is a resource problem, and, in that case, you are going to try to help them over the hump? Who is No. 22 Rl3

going to do all thi s? Is it going to be Dr. House? Is it going to be outside consultants? Who is going to perform this major assessment of all small inshore fi sh plants around the Coast of Newfoundland and Labrador? MR . SPEAKER : The hon . the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: It is not a question of who is going to, the real question is, who has been? And I will tell the hon. Member who has been. We have used a combination.

Every proposal that comes from a fish plant for help is, in fact, put forward by three Ministers, the hon. the Minister of Fisheries, the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Development, and they do an assessment. In some cases, it is helpful to have the views and opinions of NLDC or the Economic Recovery Commission; it is always helpful to have the views and opinions of the people in Finance, who do an assessment. Mr. Speaker, I should say we have probably gone one step further.

Here I am probably jumping ahead of myself, and I might be jumped upon by my Cabinet colleagues for giving out something that we are not really ready to announce. But we have just recently decided that we would take the matter one step further, and that it is now advisable to put in place people, competent individuals who will not just go and look to plants after they get in trouble, but once Government agrees to help a plant, individuals who will take action immediately to help guide that plant into the use of the funds. Now, that decision has been taken, too. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Ll4 April 27, 1990 Uol XLI HE!a r, hea r! MR . MATTHEWS : That is not new . PREMIER WELLS: rt"-is' --It - has not been in place before, and that is part of the reason why some of these plants have been getting into the trouble they have bE!en, and Government guarantees have been wasted and not put l:o proper use. So, Mr. Speaker, those steps are being taken to ensure that the maximum level of help possible is being given to fish plants. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition Leader. House MR. SIMMS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr.

Speaker, I was thrown a bit off track when the Premier made the comment about being afraid some of his Ministers might jump on him. MR. RIDEOUT : I think the reverse is true over there. MR. SIMMS: I think about the only one over there who might have the courage to do that is the Minister of Social Services. I cannot think of any others. Mr. Speaker, Premier a related to Commission. of the Commission, understand fostering of No. 22 I want to ask the question, as well, the Economic Recovery Since the objectives Economic Recovery at least as I them, include the economic development, R14

assisting in the maintenance of jobs, and, indeed, to encourage thE! crE!ation of new jobs herE! in t:he Province, can the Premier advise this House if the Economic Recovery Commission has recently made a purchase of seVE!ral dozen computers valur:.~d at $5,000 to $7,000 each, I am told, from a mail order computer firm whose office is located in Ontario, not hE!re in Newfoundland. a firm, in other words, which has absolutely no presence, no employees here in this Province? MR. SPEAKER : The han . the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, I do not know the answer off the top of my head, but I will take the matter under advisement, determine what, in fact, was done with respect to the purchase of computers, and advise the HOUSE!. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary to the Premier.

In view of the fact that he is going to investigate this suggestion, or this allegation, I guess, of the purchase by the Economic Recovery Commission of bulk orders, can I ask him further to check, or to confirm or deny if he knows that in fact hundreds of these same computers - hundreds - have been ordered and purchased by various Government departments in total, in the same way, not giving local companies who are in the business the opportunity to bid, those same local companies, of course, who employ and create jobs here?

Could the Premier check that, as well, or is he aware of an answer Ll5 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI to that? MR . SPEAKER: The han. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Well, my recollection of the Public render Act is that anything over $5,000, you have to go to public tender . I assume purchases are done in that way. If they are not, I tAJill want to know why. But I tAJi.ll have that checked too. I just assumed it was done by public tender. MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS : I have a final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The Premier is right. The Public Tendering Act does provide for that.

The problem is, and I think he will find if he investigates - and this is the reason I raise the question, in the hope that he will investigate it - that the purchase of these computers could be done from a standing offer, but a standing offer, as I understand it, is meant for emergency purchases or smaller purchases or whatever. What is happening, as I understand it, large bulk orders have been made. representing thousands of dollars. and the local companies. therefore, do not get a chance to bid on it, obviously, because they are not on the standing offer, you see.

So the Premier, when he investigates it, may find that is what happened, it was purchased from the standing offer. My question is I therefore I if that is what he does find, would he then bring in a policy or initiate a policy within the Cabinet to instruct Government Departments and Agencies that if pu~chases are No. 22 Rl5

going to be J.arge and bulk, such as the ones I have described, would he instruct those Departments and Agencies to put them out on separate tender bids so that local companies can have a crack at it? That is basically what the question is, and what the point of the qu estioning is. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Min. Speaker, it is not a question of putting that policy in place, that policy is in plaCE! now. I would have thought the former Government had it in place too, but I am not sure. I will certainly check that. There is no question about what the Government 1 s policy is.

I do not know what Government agencies may or may not have done, and if they are doing that behind the Government 1 s back, we will soon correct it. The Government wants to ensure that people in this Province are given a fair crack at all business opportunities. And while we must comply with the Public Tender Act and we must protect the interest of the taxpayers, we cannot just give a lone supplier in this Province a blank cheque because he happens to be a supplier in this Province. We must comply with the Public Tender Act, and we will, Mr. Speaker. MR. HEWLETT: Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Green Bay. MR. HEWLETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, for years the Liberal Party of this Province urged us to Ll6 April 27, 1990 Uol XLI sign a Trudeau/Chr~tien style offshore agreement which made us observers at. thE! of f'shorE• negotiating table. Wi.ll the MJ.nistE•r of energy now admit. that. it is Far better to be a real participant at the bargaining table because oF the PC Atlanl :.ic Accord? MR. SPEAKER : The han . the MinistE!r of Mines and Energy. DR. GIBBONS : Mr.

Speaker, I am not sure exactly what the question is, but certainly the negotiations relative to the offshore are going fairly well. We are not there yet, and I hope we can make progress and conclude an agreement in the next couple of months. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Green Bay . MR. HEWLETT : Mr. Speaker, in the Energy Estimates Committee the Minister would not say if Government was seeking the accommodations service super module in the current round of negotiations.

Will the Minister now confirm that that is the module we are after, what it concerns, or is it merely, as someone suggested, a glorified offshore hotel? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Mines and Energy. DR. GIBBONS: No, Mr. Speaker. I am not going to confirm what is in our package, but we have said publicly, both the Premier and I have said publicly, that we want at least one super module built in Newfoundland and we are sticking to that position. No. 22 Rl6

MR. SPEAKER : ·,=-ii-e ·--11-o 'n··-:--- the Member for Green Bay. MR. HEWLErT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Given that Federal Liberals consistently refused us an Atlantic style offshore Accord, and given that Mr. Chretien, by everything one reads and sees on the TV, could possibly become Prime Minister, has the Minister - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. HEWLETT: Mr. Speaker, I said possibly become Prime Minister. Has the Minister pursued constitutionalization of the Atlantic Accord? We tore up the Meech Lake Accord, could not Mr. Chretien, if he should become Prime Minister, tear up our Atlantic Accord? MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! Order please! The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. DR. GIBBONS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. We are all looking forward to 1992 and 1993 with anticipation. Relative to the Atlantic we are not at this time promoting constitutionalization of we will be taking steps regard. MR. SPEAKER: Accord, actively the it, but in that The han. the Member for Green Bay. MR. HEWLETT: One last supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

What if an Hibernia agreement and a Meech Lake failure L17 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI occurs at roughly the same time, say June this year? rhat will create tremendous uncertainty in Canada. Is the Minister concerned at all that that also could create some uncertainty with regard to the Hibernia agreement? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Mines and Energy. DR. GIBBONS: No, Mr. Speaker, none whatsoever . MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired . SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave! By leave! MR. SPEAKER: Before proceeding to the next item of business, I would like on behalf of hon.

Members to extend a cordially welcome to an exchange group of forty Concert Band students from Chatelech Secondary School from British Columbia and Booth Memorial High School, St. John's. And they accompanied by their teachers Mr. Derrick Moore, Principal of Booth Memorial High School, Mr. Jack Pope, Principal of the Chatelech Secondary School; Mr. Steve (inaudible), Concert Band Director of the Chatelech Secondary School, I believe I have given that name now three pronunciations, and also parents Marilene Jardin, Linda Sullivan both of British Columbia. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MR. PENNEY: Mr. Speaker. No. 22 R17

MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Member for LetJJisporte. MR. PENNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, the Resource Estimates Committee have considered the matters to them referred and have passed without amendment the Estimates of ExpenditurE! of the Departments of Mines and Energy; Fisheries, Forestry and Agriculture; Development and Environment and Lands. r:'IJL M L!.KP.li_Y : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John 1 s South. MR. MURPHY : Mr.

Speaker, I would like to report that the Social Services Committee report that they have considered the matters to them referred and have passed without amendments Items of Expenditure under the following headings; Social Services; Justice; Health; Education. I would want to thank, Mr. Speaker, the Committee Members for their sound, solid questions on behalf of the people of the Province. And I would also like to thank the Ministers for their resounding response. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given PREMIER WELLS : Mr. Speaker .

L18 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI MR. SPEAKER : fhe han. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Mr· ·:-·--s;; ·e-a·k-er·:··- yesterday in responsE! to a question, I believe by the han. Leader of the Opposition, but I am not. certain, I agrE•ed to seek a list of all oF the occasions and meetings and individuals and circumstances proposals for dealing wi t.h the offshore . Such a list has been prepared and I do not intent to do read anything from it, but just by way of explanation, Mr. Speaker, I have already made public one document in respect of which the Table of Contents is attached. And that was the document dated August 23.

The other document that was prepared in late March I have not made public yet. It is gone to the Minister of Fisheries and the Federal Task Force has been dealing with it. And we are still awaiting their formal response and I do not consider that it is appropriate that I should make public now the letter that I sent to the Minister on April 2 or that document itself. But I have attached as an Appendix a photocopy of the Table of Contents of that so that it will give han. Members some idea of what is in it. Orders of the Day MR. BAKER: Motion 1, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Motion 1, a continuation of the Budget Speech. The hon. the Member for St. John 1 s East Extern. Before the han. Member begins, for No. 22 R18

the clarification of the Chair, is the han. Member continuing or just beginning. MR. SIMMS: He just had five minutes on it yesterday. MR. SPEAKER: Fine . The han. the Member for St. John's East Extern. MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This is going on now since Wednesday. I think this is about the fifth or sixth time - I do not know if that is a record or not - that I have gotten up. But hopefully today, Mr. Speaker, I can continue for the rest of my allotted time, tWE!nty-five minutes - twenty-seven minutes, Mr. Speaker. If we can keep the Speaker in the Chair, I can continue.

The other day I had a little spurt here when the Speaker was absent. Mr. Speaker, before I go to some highlights of the budget I would like to remind my han. colleagues that on Wednesday I tried with great difficulty to impress upon the other side of the House how important the seal fishery was to Newfoundland. And before I go ahead with two other i terns in the budget I would like to remind all han. Members that this, Mr. Speaker, is our history, our culture, our tradition, and do not ever let us forget it. I mean, it has played a major role, Mr.

Speaker, since this Island has been inhabited, and as legislators, we should always bear that in mind. We should always keep in mind how important our resources are, and that is one of our resources. And hopefully, Mr. Speaker, we will receive the L19 April 27. 1990 Vol XLI nE!CE!Ssary hE!lp frorn OttalJJa. But if that help is not sufFicient then I believe that the onus is on this Government to pull up the rear, to put sufficient funds to make our seal fishery a viable industry . Mr . Speaker, we were here in this House on March lS, when the han. the Minister of Finance brought in his budget.

And in that budget the han. Minister introduced a completely new tax for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. He was so tight-lipped over that new tax, Mr. Speaker, that it took us a month to finally find out - not through this han. House, Mr. Speaker, but from the media - what his tax supposedly was all about. Now, Mr. Speaker, he did not clarify it. He tried his best, but there are so many discrepancies in it, Mr. Speaker, we really do not know where he is going to get the $15 million this year and the $25 million next year. He called his new tax the health and post secondary education tax because, Mr.

Speaker, he said he intended to raise money for education and health. But, Mr. Speaker, how could you raise money for health and education when you tax the institutions that supply these necessities? Mr. Speaker, when he introduced the tax he made provision that there were exemptions - forestry, fishery related industries. AN HON. MEMBER: Sealing. MR. PARSONS: I suppose. I do not know about the sealing part of it. Seeing that is where it is now, there is not much he could tax there. But I guarantee one thing, if there No. 22 Rl9

was a possibility there he would certainly try it. You know the only thing I feel sorry about for the Minister himself, he really did not understand the implications of that tax. And I believe that our Finance critic was right when he said there was a budgetary leak. And the Minister scrambled to his feet and hE! said something has to be done. And the bureaucrats brought up this, and he said this is something that has been there for years. it is a possibility. And he said, 'well.' He looked at it again and had no knowledge of what he was doing. I cannot understand why the Minister of Development, the hon.

House Leader, those honourable people certainly had experience. and I cannot see for the life of me, why they allowed this tax to be brought in. In fact the health and education tax, Mr. Speaker. is a tax on health and education. Now what sense does that make. Mr. Speaker? How can you take money in when you tax the same people that you are taking the money in from? AN HON. MEMBER : Explain in more detail what you have to say to them. MR. PARSONS: Glory be to God! You do not want me to explain it in more detail? MR. SIMMS: Say it in baby talk for him . MR. PARSONS: Say it in baby talk?

Well the first Premier we had used to repeat himself so often because he said people just could not understand what he said so he just kept repeating it. So I say to you now, the school and education tax, nursing homes haue to pay, nursing homes are health L20 April 27. 1990 Vol XLI subsidized. Nursing homes are taxed, hospital staff are taxed, anyone who has in excess oF a $300,000 payroll. AN HON. MEMBER : Hospital staffs are not . MR. PARSONS : No one knows. realJ.y. The Minister has not been specific. He does not know.

There are areas of concern out there in every facet of life, who are going to be taxed and who are not. What I am saying is the Government is giving out with one hand and taking it back from the same people they are giving it to and that is a falsehood. That is an indiscriminate way to collect taxes . The han. Minister said yesterday he hated taxation and when he brought in his Budget he said there was no new taxes. He was over there beaming and saying what a great Government we have. This is the second year with no tax increases. MR. FUREY: Let us go to Quebec City. MR. PARSONS: The hon.

Minister there says, let us go to Quebec City. He is not going to sway me from my 1 i ne of thought. I will haue to address that. Mr. Speaker, he and I were in Quebec City at one time and he promised me then, he said, if ever - I thought it was far fetched but I listened to him - if ever I go anywhere else. if I euer become a Minister I am going to take you with me . Mr. Speaker, I do not like to say this because he is a good friend of mine but I read an

article in the paper some weeks ago, and I also know that my colleague across the way, the Minister of No. 22 R20

Development went to Ireland. I watched hirn in the House th E! day he came back and I said that son of a so and so, Mr. Speaker, there he was in Ireland . Some of my ancestors came from Cork and I thought that perhaps I would get a chance to go over there. I was never over there but I u.Jill some day. Anyway, h~ cam e back and he dtd not look the part.

I thought that he would be bE!arning, smiling but he was so serious over there as if someone had kicked him. 1 Ireland 1 s legendary castles boast ghosts and good hosts. 1 I read it down and it said, Blarney Castle, home of th e storied Blarney Stone, is the most visited castle in Ireland . Then I checked a little further and some of his colleagues said to me, no boy, all that happened to him he could not find the stone and someone gave him a piece of coal. He did not understand until he came home that he never got a chance to kiss the Blarney Stone . MR. SIMMS : The Minister of Development? MR.

PARSONS: Yes, the Minister of Development. Now, I do not know what relationship Ireland would have with development in this Provice. It is only a very small stone . Mr. Speaker, I will to a more serious speech. MR. SIMMS : now get back part of my You can handle points of order and everything, just for a few minutes. MR. PARSONS: No problem, no problem at all . MR. SIMMS: We are going into the Common Room L21 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI to listE!I1 to his speech. H1?. can handJ.e it. aJ.l. MR . PARSONS: Mr . SpE:~aker . MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. PARSONS: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, it is time to control those peopJ.e over there . Mr. Speaker, the emphasis I hav e placed on the Minister's tax was that he said this was an education tax and it was a health tax to help alleviate the problems in those areas. But again, Mr. Speaker, he did not have his homework done . He did not realize that in collecting that $15 million he was going to have to go back and tax hospitals, nursing homes, school boards, post-secondary institutions, and Government Departments alike. He had to tax all of those. He did not realize it until he found out he could not take in the $15 million.

This is when he came up with all of this, or some of his advisors. He was ill-advised to say the least. AN HON. MEMBER: What Minister . MR. PARSONS : The Minister of Finance . I believe if he had his time back this would certainly be not included in his budgetary speech. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh yes! A higher rate . MR. PARSONS: I would not doubt that. I would not doubt that your 1. 5 will be 2. 5 or perhaps 5 next year. Oh, yes. You will have to, because No. 22 R21

thE!re is no way you arE! going to collect that much money. How do you do it? You are going to bring in warrants to fill the space when you takE! the money out. It does not make sense. How are you going to apply yourself when you are taxing charitable organizations, churches? Yes, private social service agencies, school tax authorities. Let me tell you one thing, there is a large school board here in the Province and with the increase you provided in your Budget speech a 4 per cent increase in the per pupil operating grants to schooJ.s. To this Board alone that meant $197,000 extra.

But because of the staff on that School Board, because of the sizeable staff on that School Board, that school board has to pay around $90,000 on that tax. So it is $197,000 on the 4 per cent extra to the school board. then he takes back $90.000 because of the staff. How can you budget? How could the school board budget with that extra 4 per cent. In essence when you boil it all down it is not 4 per cent, it is about 1.7 percent. It is about 1.7 per cent. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would remind han.

Members again that the proper procedure in the House is, when a Member wants to interrupt, the Member should stand and ask the han. gentleman if he would permit a question . This shouting across the floor is not permitted. It does nothing to enhance the debate and does not help the person who is speaking. The han . the Member for St. John's East Extern. MR. PARSONS: L22 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. And I knew, Mr'. Speaker. kn01.uing you for a few years I knew you would come to my rescUE!. I knet.u that especia1ly the han. Minister there in the front row, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Social Services, I agree with you. He is shocking . You would never hear rne do any thing like that, Mr. Speaker. And when you get up to speak I will be over here as quiet as a mouse. Mr. Speaker, going back to thE! Minister's Budget again. I remember distinctly the day that thE! Minister read his Budget. He made a statement saying there was going to bE! no new tax increases. Who is going to pay the tax in the long run? Who is going to pay this tax? We are taxing Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, that is going to rnean extra increases to you and I, the consumer. It has to be.

Who is going to pay it? You charge them, they have to take money out of their budget, they have to come back to bring the budget back to its original size, to its original amount. So who is going to pay it? You and I are going to pay it, Mr. Speaker. Taxing Newfoundland Light and Power, Mr. Speaker, with our electricity rates now as high as they are, poor people having a job right now to have the money to pay their light bills. Mr. Speaker, the costs are going to be raised in large amounts. Mr.

Speaker, it is going to be devastating to the ordinary poor person, the person who has to look at his budget every week and say to himself, you know, • Can I afford to spend this amount?' There are X number of dollars for lights, X number of dollars for heat, X number of No. 22 R22

dollars For groceries. Those are the people affected by this Budget. Mr. Speaker, going to municipalities, I can see a real trend here. First of all, the Minister of Municipal Affairs tal ked about a big city, a J.arge city. Now, we are only 560,000 strong a} together, Mr. Speaker, and there is no v.Jay we could create a city like Toronto, we just do not have the numbers. But, anyway, the Minister talked about the big city. Everything was going to be big, a big city. But then he watered it down and said, 'We are going to have amalgamation. ' 'We are going to have amalgamation,' Mr.

Speaker, 'one way or another, by hook or by crook, we are going to have amalgamation. ' But, then, the Premier, because of - as his predecessor in Ottawa used to say his 'just society', he said, 'no, no, I did not say that. You know, I am not going to force people. I am going to let them decide.' But, he also said that really, the decision will be made by the Legislature. Now how foolish a statement!

If it is brought in here by the Minister, and there are thirty-one of you and twenty-one of us, and we are against it- and, as the Minister of Health said the other day, there is no way he would go against one of his colleagues, be it federally or provincially, then our objections are for naught. There is no way we can stop amalgamation if, in fact, the Minister carries out what he said in the first instance. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us go back. MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible). MR. PARSONS : L23 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI Mr.

Speaker, on $300,000, and twenty years ago that was a lot of money, but iF Torbay, Flat Rock, Bauline, Pouch Cove, Outer Cove, Middle Cove and Logy Bay were to amalgamate - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. PARSONS : At today' s salaries, you know, there are engineers, nothing under $40,000 a year, perhaps $50,000 a year, it would take perhaps six employees to bring up that $300,000 a year . Now, Mr. Speaker, in those larger communi ties, they have their own snow clearing and their own road maintenance, secondary road maintenance staff, and this would escalate.

I mean, if those communities were all amalgamated, I could see a payroll, perhaps, of $600,000 or $700,000. Now if that were implemented, then you are talking about at least $300,000 or $400,000 on which tax would be placed. And, Mr. Speaker, those communi ties cannot afford it. But I can see the rationale. Now, this was done , again , on the spur of the moment, but so was amalgamation, because you can see what happened. First of all the Minister was going to go big, take us all in and make one big city out of us, and then, he said that was wrong; he did it on the spur of the moment.

Then he talked about amalgamation, and it was just a few weeks before the Budget came out that he finally watered it down, because the Premier said no one is going to be forced, and I hope he sticks to his guns. But the Minister of Finance then said, 'Glory be! This is the way to get it. Now we will tax the poor people again, because when we get them all amalgamated' - you take over in Conception Bay, again, you No. 22 R23

amalgamate them over there, and all their payrolls - right now, I would say there are only about four places in Newfoundland and Labrador where municipalities would come within those tax guides. Now, what he saw then, was room to tax the poor people again; if they amalgamate, SO per cent of them will be above the 300,000 mark and the poor people will be taxed again. Now they are going to be taxed on their lights and their heat; they are going to be taxed on thr:1'ir gas; they are going to be taxed on their food at the checkouts. Do you not mean to tell me - AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR.

PARSONS: Yes, all the food that comes in here, that 1Aii11 be transported acres s, all by labour, labour intensive, all those trucking outfits are labour intensive. Like the critic for Finance said the other day there was one company there that had in excess of $700,000 payroll, because they were in the service area all that had to be paid for, Mr. Speaker, and it will be paid not by the Sabey 1 s or the Dominion Stores of this Province, but by the individual that goes up and pays for his groceries. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, a lot of us will not see it.

A lot of us will not take into account that there is $10 gone on a grocery bill. But the people who are there watching their budget from day to day doing it on a dollar ratio, Mr. Speaker, they will see it. And that is why I say to the Minister of Finance L2~ April 27, 1990 Vol XLI you were deceitful in taxing the poor pE!Ople of this Province . You were deceil :ful, Sir, in taxing the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. In St. John's alone IAiith this new tax they have to look for an extra $500,000 . MR. TOBIN : The Minister of Education is worse (inaudible). MR. PARSONS: I am going after him .

The Minister says, yes, okay St. John's is going to pay $500,000 extra. But there are a lot of poor people in St. John's that cannot afford extra taxation. They are paying eleven mils down there now. They just cannot afford it. MR. TOBIN : They are not all doctors and professors. MR. PARSONS: They are not all doctors and professors down there. There are a lot of poor people in St. John's, but the Minister did not take that into consideration. He said, so what! I want money and I am going to get money one way or the other. Mr. Speaker, this tax will be detrimental to our tourist industry.

Take the tax on the hotels, Mr. Speaker, the tax on gas; everything, Mr. Speaker, spells out to everyone except the Minister. Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are finally awakened I suppose when the Opposition is telling them look, it took us a little while to see through it. But now we delved into it, now we can tell you you will be paying a No. 22 R24-

.<.: tax far rnore, and the Minister hc-.1d to come out and say, look, oh well, you know, I had to tax the people. We need the money; we just cannot handle the Government; we cannot do the things that are necessary. NotJJ I have to make a few remarks as far as E~ducation is concerned. Mr. Speaker, certainly any time that money goes into education I would be the last one to say anything derogatory . But, Mr. Speaker, they gave the 4 per cent increaSE! to the school boards and then they taxed the school boards.

The Minister of Education, who again I hold in high esteem, I cannot really see for the life of me how the Minister let the Minister of Finance, and I know he is his colleague because he comes to his assistance every day in the House, when one Minister looks at the other the Minister of Education gets up and says okay I will help you out. That is -part of it. But I do not see how the Minister of Education allowed this to happen because I know his greatness as far as education is concerned. I know that he has good ideas. There are some ideas that he does not have. I do not know how to implement them.

But in the meantime - AN HON. MEMBER: Your time is up. MR. PARSONS: What five minutes? I had twenty-seven. unlimited time anyway. have unlimited time. I have I say I Let me say this to the Minister of Education, most of your emphasis is placed on post-secondary education and it has to be . I L25 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI believe system, level. in the right, community college first and second AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) .· MR. PARSONS : I agree, but I do not agree ll..lith the second university wjth capabilities the same as Memorial. I think that would take away from Memorial.

But the point I am making is that I think more emphasis should be placed on our J.ocal schools, our primary, our elementary schools, and this is where we are not placing enough emphasis. DR. WARREN: And sharing. MR. PARSONS: And sharing, right. I will stand here today and say that the present system - I am pro denominattonal education system, I do not see anything wrong with it, with one exception,- we have to come to the conclusion that facilities have to be shared. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. PARSONS: Yes, sharing will have place.

And I believe that sharing took place it relieve the constraints Department. to take if this would on the I think there is money to be saved in that area and I think our heads would be in the sand, if we did not realize that it has to take place, it has to come. I do not know what way he has to go about it, he has people over there, professional people who are capable and he too is a capable person himself, but I think this No. 22 R25

should happen. It has to come Frorn the bottom, I think too much emphasis has been placed on top and from my point of viE!W, it has to carne fr-om the bottom, we have to work up and in working up we have to start at the bottom in the school system. Mr. Speaker, my time is limited, I will have to touch on the tourism aspect of this Budget. You know, I get a charge out of -· MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, how about stopping the meetings over thE!re, while I am - please - Mr. Speaker, look, han. Members over there get lost sometimes, but they are always lost. They have been lost since they went over there, most of them.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to touch on the tourism aspect of it because the doctor, the good doctor, when he brought in his hidden tax, when he brought in his lousy tax, his dirty tax, the tax on poor people, he also talked about tourism, he also said about tourism, oh, there is no tax on it. Let me tell the Minister of Finance, sometimes I go over there to the Minister and I say how about doing something as far as the roads are concerned in the east end on the highways. No we are going to do this highway that you never touched for seventeen years, you know that creates nausea, but, Mr.

Speaker, I want to remind the Minister of Finance that there is a small grotto in Flatrock, and a famous small grotto where we had distinguished people from all religions visit. I want to remind the Minister of Finance that last year there was a book put out there, a guest book - just listen to me now, just listen to me, Mr. Minister, just listen and you will learn something. There is a small community of a L26 April 27, 1990 Uol XLI 1,000 people, there is a book, a guest book which is only used From June to October and only on fine days. 6,000 people signed tha t guest book. MR.

MATTHEWS : And it is only there on fine days? MR. PARSONS: fhat is all, there is no need, l:he book is wide open, oh YE!S WE! have responsible people there, but I am just making the point that the tourism industry is a big industry in Newfoundland. It is big and it has to be nurtured, it has to be treated with respect. There is very little diversification in Newfoundland, but we have part of a diversificational system hE!re now and we do not need anything great. What I am saying is wrong is taxing the liquor, the drop of liquor that comes in. People come in, tourists come in, sure it is part and parcel of it.

They tax the liquor, they tax the gas, they tax the food, everything is going to be more expensive and eventually that Minister over there and those Ministers over there who abide with and who aid and abet the Minister of Finance will kill our tourist industry as well as they have killed the fishing industry, and you have killed the fishing industry, it has gone down the drain. Even the Member for St. John's South agrees, he nods his head, he agrees, all the Members over there, even my friend from Mt. Scio, Bell Island, he is nodding his head and saying I agree with him. Mr.

Speaker, what this Budget did to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians can only be described in one way, highway robbery. No. 22 R26

MR. SPEAKER: The han. Member's time has elapsed . MR. PARSONS: By leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS : No, no, no leaVE! . MR . PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, just to clue up . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ME!mber does not have the leave of the House. MR. PARSONS: Just to sum up, Mr. Speaker. I want to give the Minister a little pat on the back. MR. SPEAKER: Tbe hon. Member's time has elapsed and he has not been granted leave of the House. MR. PARSONS: Mr . Speaker, if the Premier - MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I am only going to take a few minutes, just a few minutes. I may run the whole thirty minutes and I may ask for leave afterwards. I am going to play it along as I go. I want to say at the very outset, Mr. Speaker, that I do not want to be too political. I did not intend to be political in this but I sat down for the last thirty minutes trying - I was forced into my seat by the whip if not I would have probably left and went out for a L27 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI coffee , but I tAla s forced to s ·t a y by the whip, and I had to li.sten to old anti-confederate himself stand up and make some remarks.

Now, before I get into the Budget Speech let me list off a couple of the things he is against. He is against Confederation, he is against taxes, he is against amalgamation, he wants liquor prices to go down so people can drink more and we will have more alcoholics, he wants taxes to go down on cigarettes so that pE!Ople can end up polluting the:ir bodies and polluting their lungs so people can smoke and cause all sorts of money to come out of - MR. PARSONS: A point of order . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the Member for St. John's East Extern. MR. PARSONS : Mr. Speaker, if the hon.

Member wanted to listen I never said anything about cigarettes and I said nothing about alcohol only as far as it pertained to the tourist industry. I just want to make it quite clear to the Minister that he is misleading the House. I do not want to come out and say he is lying but he is twisting the truth. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. The han. the Minister of Social Services. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thought the tourists who come out to my District are human beings and they drink liquor. Some of them can over-drink and some of them can become alcoholics. Except that they come No. 22 R27

from another part of Canada are touri.st people any differ~::~nt fl~om the regular people in Newfoundland? The point is, Mr. SpE!aker, he is against everything that is right for the people of the Province, absolutely everything that makes any sense because it is the tradition of the Tory GovernrnE•nt to bE:~ against everything. Let us look back over the history of the rory Government without getting too political.

The former Minister of Fisheries introduced a resolution here on Private Mernber 1 s Day about the sealing industry and about what we should do, what the Federal and Provincial Governments should do about the sealing industry. What did the then Minister of Fisheries, the then Tory Government in Newfoundland, do about the sealing industry when Greenpeace and all the people came in here and destroyed the sealing industry? What did you do? After it is all destroyed, after the whole industry is wiped out, what happened? Trudeau was in Ottawa. I am talking about what the Provincial Government did.

In that resolution the other day, Mr. Speaker, there was not one word about the fact that Newfoundlanders themselves cannot get a sealing license. It was not mentioned by one Member on that side of the House, when they spoke and when they supported the resolution, about the fact that a Newfoundlander who wants to go out and kill seals to eat is unable to do so. It is a tradition that has been here for hundreds and hundreds of years. There was no word about that. There was no word when i: was taken away, when the Federal Tory Members took it away just a couple of years ago.

The Minister of Fisheries then did not say, Newfoundlanders should L28 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI have the right. every bona fide Fishermen in Newfoundland should have the right to at least ki.1l a seal to eat. There t.uas no mention of that.. The Member for St.. John 1 s East Extern. when he spoke. never mentioned it, but the Opposition people of the day mentioned it and we fought for it. I must say I am very proud to say that I hold a sealing li.CE!nsE• to be able to go out and ki.ll a seal to eat. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD: You are against everything that is sensible . AN HON.

MEMBER: Table the license. MR. EFFORD: I cannot table the license but I will table a photocopy of it. I cannot give it away but I wi.ll table it. I will table it afterwards. Mr. Speaker. But, Mr. Speaker, let us talk some sense. I mean the Member stands up - Mr. Speaker, the Member for St. John 1 s East Extern and all other Members stand up - they are all against taxation. Can you imagine? They never looked at why the Minister of Finance had to impose a tax. Why did he have to bring in a tax. First of all, you look at the reality.

Taxes must be collected if you are going to provide essential services to the people of the Province. That is factual. And no matter which tax you bring in. people are going to be hurt as the Minister has already said. But I never heard the Member for St. John 1 s East Extern or the Member · for Burin Placentia West when he spoke yesterday to say why he had to try No. 22 R28

to collect $15 million this year . Probably iF we would not have brought in the pickle factory and wasted $23 million we would not have had to impose a tax this year. Probably there would have been no taxes brought in this year. If we only had that $20 miJ.lion back. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) . MR. EFFORD: Well, the one, Mr. Speaker, that strikes my fancy is the one that is on page one, the very first one: Bev 1 s favorite dip. Now that was something. AN HON. MEMBER : What? MR . EFFORD : That was something, Mr. Speaker. That was what the former Administration bragged about .

That is why the Minister of Finance had to impose a tax with something such as Bev 1 s favorite dip. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) . MR. EFFORD: Let me read Speaker. cucumber - out the recipe, Mr. One Newfoundland AN HON. MEMBER : What? MR. EFFORD: One package - listen to this one, God bless us. One package of Uncle Dan 1 s original southern salad dressing mix. Now, how do you do it? Mix Uncle Dan 1 s, Mayonnaise and milk until you get the kind of consistency you like . Slice and arrange cucumbers on L29 April 27, 1990 Uol XLI plate and put your dip dish in the middle. Mr.

Speaker, the audacity of the Members Opposite to stand up and bJ.ame thE ! Minister of Finance and to be against the tax. That is the reason why a tax had to be brought in, for Bev 1 s favorite dip . Now can you imagine, Mr. Speaker .

You know, the Minister of Finance jokingly said over there this morning we should probably, you know, with Governments like that of the past, we should probably tell the East Germans in uniting with the West Germans in the democratic society if they are going to impose taxes because of something like this, we should probably tell them it is better for them to stay out of it if the Administration has to bring in something like that. It is absolutely unbelievable . $20 million and we have to do it. Now, Why did we do it? The Minister of Health talked about a budget that is good for people.

You have heard the Minister of Health make the announcement about opening up hospital beds. We went through four years in the Opposition trying to convince - the Minister of Health on why should we open up hospital beds. I mean I can te 11 you story after story. I had my files full of i't when I was the He a 1 t h critic for the Opposition in pointing out where people were transported from Clarenville by ambulance on a stretcher bed having to stay in the Health Science lobby or in St.

Clare 1 s day after day, hour after hour, only to find out 6:00 that afternoon there were no beds available and they had to be transported either back to Clarenville or some part of rural No. 22 R29

Newfoundland after suffering day that there were no available. So, why did all. beds the Minister of Health impose a tax? AN HON . MEMBE~ : It is happening today . MR. EFFORD: f:fo- ...... it __ .is ..... __ not happening today. It is still happening, sure, to some extent, but it is not happening to the extE!nt that it. was. How many beds did the Minister of Health open? How many beds did he open? Look at the nurses situation. We preached time after time the stress. the strain. the overwork. the hours they were working, the understaffing, the wages and everything that the nurses were working. What happened?

The President of Treasury Board soon after the budget brought in a nurses agreement that every nurse in the Province now is getting the respect and earning the wages that they deserve. Now we could have took that same amount of money, we could have opened up a cucumber bed out in Port de Graue District. God forbid. The people would never vote for me anymore if we ever did. They never would any more. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. EFFORD: Oh, there is nothing wrong with boat building in Port de Graue District, Mr. Speaker. They are still building lots of boats out there by a very capable employer.

In fact they started two sixty-four foot, eleven and a half inches. with an extra coat of paint it might give it sixty-five, out there in the next - in fact they built six in the last month and two more again next month, Mr. Speaker. And we are very pleased L30 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI about the boat building indu stry in Port de Graue District. fhe last election proved that. But, Mr. Speaker, you can stand now, I know.

I was sat down there for the J.ast. two and a half sessions of the House of Assembly and I have looked at - in fact sometimes I have been almost tE!mpte•d to get out of my seat and go across the floor and write a few questions. I know how weak the Opposition really is. I know that they are really digging deep . I saw it budget day . I saw it budget day when the hon. the Minister of Finance got up and read the budget. I never saw such a surprised look and no words, nothing corning out. There was nothing negative to say about the budget.

I can see them scurrying up to the Opposition office getting in the 1 i ttle board room saying what are we going to pick apart in this Budget? There is nothing there. Everything is good. Nothing for the Opposition. Absolutely nothing for the Opposition whatsoever. Absolutely nothing. I mean day after day. after day. after day there are no questions. At least when we were in the Opposition we used to get a scattered interview out of it. But then the press do not ever bother them any more. the press do not even call for them.

I mean at least every day in the week there would be four or five Opposition Members. when we were over there. out in the press gallery lined up getting in because of the notes that were coming down, but now you may see once in a while the Leader of the Opposition. but other than that, absolutely nothing whatsoever. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. 22 R30

Oh, oh! MR. EFFORD: I went through the Estimates ComrnittE!e with the Member for Humber East. Now there was something. There is where we really got on a real live debating question and answer, but I cannot say too much after yesterday because I had to get some buttons sewed on last night on my shirt, the praise that we got yesterday. So I cannot say too much. But I can say, Mr. Speaker, honestly, that she does not understand, she should pass the Social Services critic over to somebody else because on the Estimates Committee she really does not understand what is happening. AN HON. MEMBER: Be nice to her now. MR.

EFFORD: I am being nice to her, because she should give it over probably to - my goodness not to the Member for Burin - Placentia West. Because he is the former Social Services Minister, Mr. Speaker. H e hones t 1 y doe s not rea 11 y k now what the Department of Social Services is all about. In fact I do not know if he really knows why he is sitting in the chair. But nevertheless he does occupy it. AN HON. MEMBER: He is usually over here. MR. EFFORD: Now the real critic, or the supposedly real critic, I do not know what happens to him - every now and again he disappears for a while.

Probably you should give it to the Member for St. John's East Extern, he would be the right one because he is against women rights; he is against amalgamation; he is against L31 April 27, 1990 Uol XLI Confeder·ation; he is against_ taxes; he is against rising prices; he js against just about everything. So he probably 1_.uould be against some of the good things that we are doing. So I would have no problem. But he does understand some of the soc-i.al problems. Mr.

Speaker, the one thing we have had to do and I suppose if you look at why the Minister of Finance - and I am sure he has laid awake a lot of nights because he did not want to impose a tax. But if you really look at why it was done, why was any tax imposed? I mean seventeen years of what? Seventeen years of everything happening positive. Not everything. We could not even look close, seventeen years of mismanagement. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. EFFORD : Seventeen years, Mr. Speaker, of mismanagement; seventeen years of spending money on business people. The Tory philosophy is business.

I can understand why you are against taxes, because taxes are being imposed on your friends .. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. EFFORD: No, taxes are imposed on your friends. I mean Tory philosophy is to support large corporations; the Tory philosophy is to support business; the Tory philosophy is not what the Minister of Finance proposed in his Budget to help people, the people's budget, to put essential services in place. AN HON. MEMBER : No. 22 R31

(lnt3.udjbJe) . t"~R. EFFORD: In imposing taxes? Where would you put a tax? Would you charge it right directly to the individual themselves? No, you are so upset because your Tory business friends are coming and saying look, I am going to pay 1. 5 per cent next year. My goodness! I can understand what you are talking about. I mean why did you not get up and say to the Minister of Finance congratulations that you imposed a tax, now we can hirE! on some social work~;:'rs; notAl we can open some hospital beds; now we give the nurses some decent wage; now u.Je are provide some essential services to people.

I mean, taxes have to bE! collected in order to provide those services. AN HON. MEMBER: And hope to get leadership money the next time. MR. EFFORD : Mr. Speaker, why did not the Tory Administration recognize the inefficiencies in student aid, and the major problems students have trying to get into University? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, Please! I am having difficulty hearing the speaker. MR. EFFORD: The former Minister of Education, why is she so critical towards the now Minister of Education? Why is it they cannot recognize that they were there and they did not do anything about it?

Taxes had to be imposed in order to do those things. Are you saying that we should do away with the increase in student aid this year? Are you saying that we should not give L32 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI sing1e parE:~nts an opportuniLy Lo Furt:h,:>r t:heir Nlucat.ion? .Is thal: what you are saying? DR. KITCHEN : And it was a good tax . MR. EFFORD: WelL then, you do not us in debt. tAle in debt? how do you do it iF increase it? You ran in debt. How How many bil1ion a1ne $5.2 billion dol1ars much were we in debt whE!n they took over in 1971-72? MR. MURPHY : Less than $1 billion dollars . MR.

EFFORD: Less than $1 billion . MR. SIMMS: That is over forty years or rnore. MR. EFFORD: 0 v e 'r forty y ear s ! 0 h ! s e v e n t e e n year·s. That is a long, long way fr·om Tipperrary, Mr. Speaker, and it is a long,long way frorn forty years- seventeen years. MR. MURPHY : That is right on! MR. SIMMS: Seventeen years that's the one high point . MR. EFFORD: Seventeen~ years! to $5.2 billion . MR. SIMMS: From $1 billion No interest on the first twenty years. MR. EFFORD: I tell you one thing, Mr .

Speaker, it did not go for services for the people; it did not go in opening hospital beds; it did not go in paying nurses a decent wage; it did not go in hiring on social No. 22 R32

woJ~kE!rs; it tAJas not. spE!nt in helping out the people of l:.he Province in education or providing opportunities for people to get into university. It. tJ.Jent for thE! friends of the Tory party, the busi.nE!SS people. AN HON. MEMBER : ----(InaudJ.ble) . MR. EFFORD: Well, it was a phi1osophy of your Government. If you had seen that OVE!r the pas l: seventeen years we would not be in the mess we are in now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. EFFORD: It is only now you see something positive happening. That is the one thing you cannot understand. Why are people against positive things happening? AN HON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible) real Tory Premier. MR. EFFORD: You would think with their Tory Philosophy, after errors and errors, mistake after mistake, seventeen years of no direction, you would think at least once in a while they would admit there was something good happening in the Province, something good happening for a change. But no! No! Mr. Speaker, it all boils down to the fact that they cannot accept the fact that somebody else can do the right thing for the people of the Province. DR. KITCHEN: And do a better job. MR. EFFORD: Do a better job. understand it.

I mean, I cannot An average human L33 April 27, 1990 Uol XLI being, regardless of your Philosophy, your Politics, would not be against hospital beds opening! You would not be against people receiving better health care! MR . SIMMS: Do not be so silly! You closed a hundrE!d bE!dS J.ast year For God's sakes. What are you talking about? MR. EFFORD: You have to distribute the dollars in a fair and equal manner ar·ound the Province so that you can at least give decent service. It is better than giving no service at all!

Mr.Speaker, it is absolutely unbelievable that they just cannot stand to know that we are doing something right for the people of the Province. Just cannot stand it! Well, let me tell the hon. Members opposite one thing, they are going to be in misery for a long, long time, because we are going to be over here for a lot of years to come, so you might as well settle down to it. You might as well settle down and come to realize the fact that if you do not want to put up with it, you are going to have to leave. Because we are here to stay. It is going to be a lot longer than seventeen years.

All you have to do is talk to people around the Province, Mr. Speaker, and you can see for sure the attitude of the people. I suppose they may change their minds around - what? - the year 2050? MR. MURPHY: Somewhere around there, yes. MR. EFFORD: Somewhere around 2050. They but it will be doubtful. some of the young Members we No. 22 may, With have R33

now. like the young Members for Eagle River, for Lewisporte and For LaPoile, all those young people in the backbenches - AN HON. MEMBER: Lapoile? MR. EFFORD : Yes. the young Member for LaPoilE! and al.l those people coming up, I think we are around for a long, long time. When we old grey-haired fellows are gone home to roes t. they wi 11 be here keeping this Liberal Party going on this side of the House of Assembly. Min. Speaker. rnake no mistake about it. And the young Member for Stephenville. I forgot about our young. ups tanding Member. and the young Member for Mt. Scio - Bell Island . Yes! Yes!

And Bonavista down there. I have no doubt, Mr.Speaker. there may be some Opposition Members. We hope. MR. SIMMS : (Inaudible). MR. RAMSAY: No, you will not get Eleanor Major to run. do not worry. MR. SIMMS: (Inaudible) against you, we are here and you are gone . MR. EFFORD: I think, Mr.Speaker, in all fairness to an Opposition Party, I think every Government and each Government should have an Opposition Party, but they should have a capable Opposition. They should have people who have .their- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! L34 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI MR. EFFORD: Oh, yes, I campaigned on t.hal· in 1985, by the way.

I did. I campaigned on that in 1985 . pR. WARREN : The Opposition should have in-service education . MR. EFFORD : Yes . We need some. Yes, that is right. The Minister of Education has offe1ned some in ---service education, and I will support him. I will certainly help him to come over thE!re and sit down once in a while. because it is important. I do not think any Government should be without an Opposition. I think it really adds something. it keeps you alive. keeps you on your toes, Mr. Speaker. Mr .

Speaker, the fishery in Newfoundland and Labrador is something none of us can really jest or joke about. because it is a serious crisis . It IJJa s c au s e d by whom, Mr. Speaker, this Government? Were the problems caused by this Government? No! Surely. goodness gracious, the now Leader of the Opposition. a former Minister of Fisheries. had no part to play in what is happening in the Province? Surely, the now Prime Minister of Canada and the former Minister of Fisheries, Tom Siddon. and all his colleagues in Ottawa had no part to play in what has happened!

I suspect Members opposite will say that happened in 1949 or 1950. I am sure they will go as far back as that. They would have no

part in it. Why now? I listened during Question Period today when they talked about the fish plants, What would this Government do? They got a surprise when the Premier stood up and told them what we are doing No. 22 R34

about the fish plants and what. t..ue will do about any fish plants with whom we have loan guarantees in place. I heard a Member opposite say, 1 What! We have done that for fifteen years! We have had pE!Ople in place, not only to see the guarantE!ed loans put in place, but. to see that the plants t..uould operate . MR. MURPHY : That is right . MR. EFFORD: I have not seen any evidence of it.

I have not seen, for the last eight or ten years, evidence of anybody being put in place to guarantee they would be operating in a manner in which they would be able to make a reasonable amount of profit; at least they would be a b 1 e to run the bus in e s s with the success expected of any normal business. I did not see any evidence of that. I can honestly say one thing, that over the years, I have seen and talked to a lot of fish plant owners who have continuously found themselves in financial trouble and received no support or direction whatsoever from the former Government.

Now that something positive is being done about it, Members opposite are against everything positive, giving no support whatsoever. The fisheries in this Province, Mr. Speaker, will always be around. There is no question about that. I think the communities around Newfoundland will always exist. But can they exist the way we are going today? No. Any Government, whether it be Federal or Provincial, has to put in some sort of mechanism, with sense, logic and responsibility to ensure that those communities do continue to exist.

And, if you allow every person growing up in L35 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI communities in rural Newfoundland to be dependent on the fishing industry, then there can be no future. There is no way the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador can succeed the way it has been going the last t.lAJenty-five or thirty year·s. It cannot. AN HON. MEMBER : We are still here. MR . EFFORD: We are still here, sure lAJe are. How are we struggling? How are the people living out in the communi ties? Every winter, in the small communities, you have to bring in make-work programs. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) living out there. MR.

EFFORD: Well, I agree, they are living. It is better than not living at all. But, why would you be against the Government, federally. provincially or jointly, bringing in a system, some new ideas, some planning which can help those communities to survive? What about the fishing gear the fishermen use? Why should we import fishing gear from other countries? Well, is there anything wrong with trying to develop something, encourage people to get started in some other industry?

So that instead of 100 people living in a community being totally dependent, probably a small percentage could be diversified with some new ideas and production of items used in that particular plant. I believe the Member for LaPoile told me a while ago that out in Port aux Basques we have a small plant which is manufacturing plastic fish trays. Am I correct? No. 22 R3S

AN HON. MEMBER: "pa 'ri 5"'-a ncr--Fi'a r'd -h a t s ' MR. EFFORD : Some fifty million trays are being marketed every year in the Province. MR. MURPHY : FPI uses $1.5 mi llion worth of trays in their plants. MR. EFFORD : FPI alone, USE!S $1.5 million tAJorth of plastic fish trays a year. What is wrong with the town of Port aux Basques, or Grand Bank, or some other community around rural Newfoundland getting involved in producing something like that? AN HON. MEMBER : "(rti·a.-u ·C! i 5Te)·-~ .. - MR. EFFORD: Well, you will be told in due course.

Thr:1 problem with the Opposition is they are afraid something positive is going to happen. They are afraid we are going to do something from which the people of the Province are going to get some satisfaction and some benefit. AN HON. MEMBER : Tell us what you are going to do. MR. EFFORD: Wait. Wait. Just have a little patience. Did you ask your federal colleagues what they are going to do? AN HON. MEMBER: Yes. MR. EFFORD: Did they answer you? AN HON. MEMBER: Yes. L36 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI MR.

EFFORD : ·w-e-r c~ -"""'-'ti1 ~' n ' anstAJE!rS, and to ask us. answers. you you You I< n OlAJ should k n OlAJ all the not have alJ !:hE• There are things in Newfoundland we can do. The only thing is people have to have a fair and equal oppor·tunity, people have to be given direction, people have t.o have opportunities and Government agencies, and know where they can go for help. The one thing I found out since I became involved in politics is that any individual who had any sort of a business idea whatsoever in this Province was totally frustrated when they went to the Provincial Government for direction.

They would go to one department in Government and would always come up against problems from another department; one department was pulling away from the other department, confusing, frustrating and turning people away. People were frustrated. Now direction is being shown, there is a system in place, and when people go to Government for assistance, thE:'Y are not being frustrated, the doors of opportunity are being opened to them, they can get some satisfaction, they have confidence that they are not working and not operating alone.

And if they have a business idea, there is somebody willing to listen and somebody to support, and some mechanism is in place so that they can go ahead and be encouraged to follow through with their idea. Will everything be prosperous? Will everything be rosy? No. But at least the greater percentage will develop the future of the Province. And that is what they have to depend on, the future of the Province, rural Newfoundland. Everything is not going to centre around St. John 1 s or Gander or No. 22 R36

..!. Grand Falls or Corner Brook for'ever. There are motne outside. There are a lot of communities around. And no Government in its right 1r1ind would be out there saying we have to bring everything into one centre in Newfoundland. The policy of this Government is to diversify, is to give rural Newfoundland an opportunity. And every time you mention that the Opposition jumps up, Oh, no, you did not say that. That is not your policy.

The plan is to develop Newfoundland and Labrador excluding nobody, to give everybody an equal and fair opportunity at the future of Newfoundland and Labrador, to keep Newfoundland and Labrador together, not to have Newfoundland and Labrador depend on one industry. If you ever get down to the fact that you are depending on one industry, whether it be fish, whether it be mining, whether it be forestry. regardless of what it is, oil or electric power, no province. no country is going to survive. You have to diversify. You have to give people an opportunity.

We have an extraordinary problem in Newfoundland because of the geography of the Province, because there are communities scattered around the coast. It is not easy to diversify, but you have to put a system in place to do it. And it is not something that is going to be accomplished overnight. The direction for the future is starting now, but it should have been started seventeen years ago, twenty-five years ago. but it was not. So we do not looked to the past now, we look to the future. L37 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI MS VERGE : It is about time . MR.

EFFORD: It is about time, and the Member for Humber East should have realized that when she tJJas in Government . It is about tim ~e' is right. This Gover nment realizes it is about ti.me, and this Government is going to do something about it whether the Opposition likes it or does not. There is going to be something done for the future. MS VERGE : Tell us when . MR. EFFORD: Oh, no. In due course. You told me five minutes ago your Federal colleagues have already told you, so why are you asking? You know the answers. Apparently you did not like what you friends were telling you. Apparently, Mr.

Speaker, they do not like the attitude of their Federal colleagues, but they are afraid to admit it. Probably that is the reason. MR. MURPHY: We do not negotiate in the House. John, we do it in a businesslike way. MS VERGE: (Inaudible) policies on the fisheries when the Liberals were in power or when the (inaudible). MR. EFFORD : Let me assure you of one thing, Mr.

Speaker, that when a plan is placed for this Province in the future, it will not be done in a political manner, it will be done in an equal and fair manner for every individual living in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, where the need is No. 22 R37

grE:'atest.. And frorn that sort of sys l:ern 1Aii11 follo1.1.1, not politics, not because of your poli .tical views, not because you have a friend in Government, everybody i.n the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador wi11 have an equal and fai1n opportunity. That is the direction which should have been started tE!n yf:~ars ago, l:hat is the sort of system which should have been in place.

If that sort of system had been in place, we would not have the problems we have today, we would not have the problems we have in rural Newfoundland, where there are places IAiith no roads, as in Labrador, where no consideration was given to Parks there because the people voted a different way. MS VERGE : Everyone from rural Newfoundland 1.1.1ill have equal opportunity for a job i.n St. John's or Toronto. MR. EFFORD: I believe that everybody - MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! Order, please!

I have tolerated it for a great deal of time, but the hon . the Member for Humber East is not in her seat and she is not supposed to be making comments. The hon . the Minister of Social Services. MR. EFFORD : Mr. Speaker, I do not know what point she is making. I would say that everybody in Canada, every individual in Canada has an equal opportunity to work where ever they choose to work. If a person in my district wants to go to Vancouver to work or wants to work in St. John's or wants to work in Grand Falls, they have an equal L38 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI opportun ity.

ShouJ.d we l:ak c::! that. oppor t.u ni ty away f1n0111 the1n ? No! Our re sponsib ility is to provide opportunities for people to work within th eir own provin ce, if th ey so 1.1.Jish. But if they choose to go somewhere else, fine! You cannot tell people they must. work in Newfoundland, you cannot tel l people the~Y must work in foronto. It is not the right of anybody , whether they are in Government or outside Government, to do that. You create the opportunity for people to stay within the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. But, you see, you are afraid something good is going to happen. You are afraid.

It is like the Budget. You were afraid something good was going to happen. M R . S P E A K.E R : Order, please! The han. Member's time has elapsed . MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Member for Grand Bank . SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: Not much support over there. MR. MATTHEWS: No, not much support. You are right, not much support boy! But, then, I do not need much support to get up here and react to this Budget, Mr.

Speaker, especially following the Minister of Social Services, who, every time I get up after him, goes 'sh, sh, do not say too much.' I would just like to say that I am very, very No. 22 R38

p1E~ased to foJ.low the MinistE!r of the future for the Provine.::~. the Minister of the future who says, let us go forward, let us stop J.ooking backwards. I concur with the Minister of Social Services on those thoughts, but all I hope is that t..uhe n we lao k to the fu tu r·e it is going to be a bright future, and that the future for the hundreds of communities ar·ound the coast of this Province will be brighter, and not worse off over the next few years in this Province. That is rny biggest concern.

I really wish the Minister of Social Services had frightened the life out of rne this morning tAJhen he toJ.d me about what his Government is . going to do for the communities which are being affected by the very serious crisis in our fishery, and I hope that over the next few days, Mr. Speaker, or the next week or two weeks or two months, that I am the most embarrassed person in Newfoundland and Labrador, as the Premier referred to a couple of days ago when he said, the Member for Grand Bank is going to be embarrassed. I want to go on record here today and repeat what I said then.

I said, I hope I am the most embarrassed person in Newfoundland and Labrador, I hope I am embarrassed to death. Not that I hope I die, but it is embarrassment I hope I would have to wear, because I do not mind being embarrassed if the people whom I represent, particularly, in this case, in the town of Grand Bank, are looked after in some way, by some other industry or industries being found for that town. I hope I am embarrassed. I would say publicly that I am embarrassed, and I would congratulate and thank all those who do anything positive for the L39 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI people I represent.

I altAJays do that; I altAJay s gtve c r'c,,di t tAJhE!re crE!di t is due. If that all works out, then I tAJill certainly do that. But uJhat I have seen so far, Mr. Speaker, from this Government since it came to power as it pertains to my District, has been nothing but taking atAJay. I have had the in-patient services at two hospitals closed out.

We now think the Minister of Education has his mind made up, he is going through the white paper process to say that people had some input into it and that he received feedback; he is going to take the headquarters of Eastern Community College from the Burin Peninsula and establish it in Clarenville, under great, great pressure caused by four or five Members opposite who are putting tremendous pressure on the Minister of Education to move that headquarters off the Burin Peninsula.

I see the Minister of Social Services smiling over there, sort of smiling slyly, and I almost think he had something to do with it; I almost think he has probably met with the Minister of Education to persuade him - ~R. WALSH: (Inaudible) colleague from Trinity . MR. MATTHEWS: It has nothing to do with the Member for Trinity North. It has to do with four or five over there who have almost broken the arm of the Minister of Education in saying, take that off the Burin Peninsula, even though it is established, and even though it is going to cost more money to relocate it. MS VERGE: No. 22 R39

Kick them when they are down. MR. MATTHEWS : Kick them when they are down - 500 less workers in the shipyard in Marystown, in-patient services closed out in two hospitals. I lAJant to make a cornrnent to react-: to comments made by the MinistE!r of Health yesterday or the day before . I find the Minister of Health so hard to listen to, I do not remember what day he spoke. He is not like the Minister of Social Services. I can listen to him.

But, I would like to react to some of the things he said, as well, when he was in Opposition and he talked about hospital beds which tAJere not open, and problems around the Province he identified with. When the Minister of Social Services was in Opposition he said people could not find a bed and were lined up in hospitals wanting to get in. Let me just tell the Minister of Social Services this story that happened in the new, modern regional Burin Peninsula Health Care Centre. A lady was in for surgery and was operated on one day.

The next day, like all of us of course, at times you need to go to the bathroom, the hospital workers took her to the washroom and when she came back, someone else was in her bed. Now, that is a true story. I am not proud to get up here today and talk about that. MR. EFFORD: That is a problem with the hospital staff . MR. MATTHEWS: No, the problem has been created, let me tell the Minister of Social Services, because since they closed out the thirty-five beds at Grand Bank, the twenty-five beds in St.

Lawrence, and the thirty-plus beds at the old Burin L40 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI Cotl:age Hospital, ther'e is so rnuch pressure now on the Burin Peninsula Regional Hospital that they cannot handle it; it. is gradually becoming a VE!r'y SE!rious health care crisis on Lhe Burin Peninsula. That is what is happening in our ar,~a as a result-: of this Government 1 s acti.on in health care. MR. WINSOR: "J'j_fij'~ .. --·-c·a-n" -y 0 U S e e t hE! b a J. d e a g J. e S today? t:IJL ._M. _ AT T H E~.§ : I do not want to be distracted now by the Member for Mount Scio BE!ll Island.

It just so happens that last night I flicked on VOCM before I went to sleep and I could not believe the bawls that were comi.ng out of the Member. He was batAJling like a moose, on with Ron Pumphrey, about the moose on Bell Islc:1nd. MR. WINSOR: And five bald eagles . MR. MATTHEWS : fhe moose was the big thing. He was all taken up with the moose. He has had meetings, or will be having meetings with the Minister responsible for wildlife to get a partner for this moose. Now, those are the concerns of the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island for his District. He was bawling like a moose.

The only other time I heard anyone bawl on Rom Pumphrey 1 s show was one night when Ron was trying to tell someone how to shoot the wild baloney. He said, first of all you have to scare the wild bologna before you can shoot them. He then asked the gentleman who called in if he knew how to do that. The gentleman said, no, and of course Ron said, you have to go awhoom! He then as ked the No. 22 R40

gentleman to do that and fo1n twenty minutes Ron Pumphrey had the poor man bawling to frighten the wild baloney. But the thing that amused me most tJJas he said, now, once you frighten them and they run, you have to have a bend in the barrel of your gun. He said, do you know why you have to have the barrel of your gun bent? The poor gentleman, you know he really had him sucked in, he said, no, I do not Ron. Could you tell me why you have to have a bend in the barrel of your gun?

Ron said, because when you awhoom and you scare them, tAiild baloneys have one leg shorter than the other and when they run they go around in circles so you have to have a bend in your gun to s hoot them . Now, the closest thing I have come to that wild baloney call was last night, whE!n the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island was praising up his Bell Island moose. At times he actually bawled like a moose - awhoorn! You could hear him. I am very familiar with the Bell Island moose, let me say seriously to the Member, having been the Minister for Wildlife at one time.

It was a big debate as to whether or not to get a partner for Belle or take Belle off of Bell Island. Now, I think, at that time there was a fifty/fifty split whether we do it or we leave it alone and we left it alone. I do not know what is going to happen this time. MR. WINSOR: And there were five bald eagles next to it. MR. MATTHEWS: There were five bald eagles over there as well. MR. SIMMS: The latest survey shows L~1 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI fifty/fifty. MR. MATTHEWS: Fifty-fifty. Pretty well split . MR. WINSOR: Transportation, get the ferry on stand by.

MS VERGE : Fifty for keeping the for the moose going, the Member going. MR . MATTHEWS : moose, Forty and ten for W~ll, if only ten wants the Member to go, he is not doing too bad, I must say. Now, are those figures accurate? Getting back to the Budget, Mr. Speaker, there are a number of concerns with this particular Budget, particularly from a fisheries point of view, that sort of alarm me as the fisheries critic. Of course, I have alluded to that in another debate in the House over the last few weeks. We see the budget of the Department of Fisheries has been reduced this year by $2. 1 million.

As I have said before, I really thought if ever there was a time in our history when the budget of the Department of Fisheries would have been increased, it was this particular year ; with the crisis ongoing in the fishery, with the negotiations and discussions supposedly taking place with the Federal Government, that the Province would be gearing itself up to address this very serious crisis. There is a $2. 1 million reduction in the budget of the Department of Fisheries, from $33.3 million last year to $31.2 million this year.

And that is somewhat alarming to me, because I thought there would be greater emphasis and greater No. 22 R~1

provisi on, I guess greater preparation, put forward by the Government to try and deal with l:his very. very serious issue. And. of coursE!. that tiE!S in wi.th remarks that have been made in thi.s House over the last few U.Jeeks, talking about the Fisheries crisis particularly. And when you look at aquaculture in this Province. Mr. Speaker. you would think Government would be giving more attention to it and putting more emphasis on it.

If you are looking at diversification, if you are looking at trying to get other industries. if you are trying to find work for people in this Province. you would think aquaculture would be one area the Government would sort of be promoting. But when you look at the Fisheries budget you see there is a reduction in aquaculture funding this year over what was last year. and that is very disturbing as well. Plus there are some other very significant decreases for boat building and so on. I think there is a $1.4 million reduction in capital to the Loan Board for boat building in the Province for fishermen.

That is very, very significant, and it tells me that this Government is trying to find a way to downsize, rationalize the fishery. and it is opened by what they have done in their own Budget. Now, of course, what has caused most of the debate and the concern about the Budget, Mr. Speaker, has been the 1.5 per cent payroll tax, as we refer to it; the Minister of Finance calls it an education and health tax. Of course, there is no question that people around the Province, over that last few weeks, are asking a lot of questions about this particular L42 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI tax .

And the reason they are asking questions is because if you rE!flect back on what has happE!ned since Budget Day, when the Minister announced the tax. it is that questions have been asked of the Minister regarding what the tax applies to. At first the Minister was not sure. Then we asked if the tax applied to health and education inst'i.tuU.ons i.n the Province. The Minister was not sur·e. At one point he said no.

He said, 1 You do not have to worry about the university and health care institutions. 1 And then we find that while this House was recessed, during Easter, he flicked out a press release over the wires in the Province saying it applied to all of those agencies . Since then we have asked the Minister if he could tell us how much of the payroll tax, this projected $15 million net, will come from the private sector of the Province, wiJ.l come from thE! Federal Government and its agencies in the Province, and how much will come from the Provincial Government Departments and agencies in the Province.

Now you would think that after two months the Minister of Finance would be able to stand in his place and very quickly give answers on this very controversial payroll tax. But he, as of today, cannot do that. And what really frightens me about it is that the Minister of Finance, even though this tax applies to Provincial Government Departments and Pro vi nc ial agencies, does not know how much he is going to pay himself. Now, that is the most compelling - I guess argument is not the word, but - MS VERGE: No. 22 R42

Indictment. MR. MATTHEWS : Yes, indictment of this lAJhole tax, is that he cannot tell how much he is going to pay himself on this 1.5 per cent payroll tax. So there is obviously an inadequacy in the Budget. Two days ago, the Minister stood in his place and said he will probably have to bring in a Special Warrant later in the year. That was a direct admission that indeed his Budget is wrong. His Budget is deceiving, ii is fraudulent, as has been said before.

What really puzzles me and other Members on this side of the House is why the Minister does not bring in an amendment to his Budget, which he can do here, and have it done with. Why does he not do that? That is the question. I mean, the Minister of Forestry laughs over there, but that can be done. Can it? MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) what you would do with it. MR. MATTHEWS: Wh-owouTcla-o with what? MR. FLIGHT: The Opposition (inaudible) . MR. MATTHEWS: We will not do any more. All we want is the error corrected. That is a 11 we are as king for .

First of all, tell the people in the Province who is taxed; tell the people in the Province how much revenue you are going to get from the three sectors you are taxing. MR. DICKS : Fifteen million . MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, but tell us how much from L4-3 April 27, 1990 Vol XLI E•ach onE!. I mean, you coul.d say $20 million if you do not tell us what it is, where you are getting it From and how much. We know where you are getting it frorn, but you cannot tell us how much you are going to pay yourself. AN HON. MEMBER : Not paying anything. MR. MATTHEWS: Not paying anything . He is not paying anything.

He is not paying anything to himself, so, then, that still throws your Budget off by $6 million or $7 million, which is our point, you see? That is the biggest problem we have with the Budget. We have other very serious problems with it, but that is the problem which has been highlighted. DR. KITCHEN: I hope you are not losing a lot of sleep about it. MR. MATTHEWS: No, I am not losing a lot of sleep about it, but I am concerned. I would say to the Minister that he has probably lost a few winks over it, and a lot more winks over the statements he made here in this House over the last