Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 53 (35th Legislature, 2nd Session)

35-2-53

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Second Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XL No. 53 - 1: 3 0 p.m., WEDNESDAY, MAY 29, 19 91 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Leglslature LIB - Liberal ; ND - New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conservative NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARST AIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMM INGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERK ACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Al bert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAM MER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MclNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darre n, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWC HUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

LIB ND ND LIB LIB ND LIB ND PC PC PC PC ND ND PC PC PC LIB PC PC ND ND PC PC ND LIB PC ND PC ND LIB ND PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC ND ND

2656 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 29, 19 91 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS MATTER OF PRIVILEGE Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a matter of privilege. I rise today on a matter of privilege which will be followed by a substantive motion. I first want to make it clear that this is the earliest opportunity that I have had to rise on this matter because it was important for the process of this House that I be given the opportunity to read Hansard of yesterday, and that was not available to me until this morning. Mr.

Speaker, on May 21, I asked the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Derkach) for some information with respect to the construction budget for the Department of Education. I was denied that information because that information was, he said, incom plete and not totally and finally approved. On the 28th of May, I asked a series of questions asking why some members of this House had been given that informat ion, but other members of this House had been denied that information . The minister was not available at that time, and so it was necessary to wait for him to make an announcement yesterday.

At that time, he made no apology for the fact that some mem bers of the House had been given information that other member s of the House had been denied. He simply stated that it was inadvertent that it had been made public. • (1 335) In further questions to the minister as to whether that information would now be made available to me as a member of this House, I was told no, that information would not be made available to me until the list was completed, despite the fact that other members of this House, by the minister's own admission, clearly had some of that information made available to them.

Therefore , I believe that my privileges as a member of this House have been eroded by the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Derkach). I therefore move, seconded by the member for lnkster (Mr.

Lamour eux), that the Minister of Education and Training's conduct in providing information to government memb ers and then ref using to provide the same information to opposition mem bers by denying its availability be referred to the Standing Comm ittee of Privileges and Elections to determine whether the minister misled the House and whether he is competent to remain in his position as Minister of Education and Training. Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I am a little bit troubled by the member's motion. Most definitely, it is a serious matter.

The member claims that her rights as a member have been eroded by the Minister of Education and Training. I want to, for a moment, lay on the record the process that I am led to believe has maybe brought the member to her feet to rise on a matter of privilege. Mr. Speaker, it was only a very short time ago that cabinet has considered the total capital budget of the Department of Education. I know that there were still some certain final aspects that had to be put to that capital plan.

I know the minister was troubled by the fact that he could not lay that capital plan before the Legislature during his Estimates review, but there were some eleme nts of that capital plan that were accepted by government which, not only did the minister share with certain members of the government, but also with, indeed, I understand, a member of the opposition.

I do not know-we are far out of the whole area of convention with respect to how capital plans are handled in this House with respect to various departments, which are the Department of Health, the Department of Education or, indeed , the Department of Highways. There are no specific rules within this field. That is the point I am trying to make, Mr. Speaker. The minister informs me that the press release is being prepared right at this particular moment with respect to the release of the whole capital plan of the Department of Education, and there is hope, indeed, that might be done yet this week. We are

2657 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 1991 following procedure that has been practised in this House over a long period of time, and I would ask you, therefore, Mr. Speaker, to rule in that fashion and to find the motion by the member for River Heights wanting and therefore to rule it out of order. * (1 340) Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, what we are dealing with in this matter of privilege is a very serious question here.

It relates to the qu estion of wh ethe r we are still a parliame ntary body, whether this Legislature is still the ultimate authority or whether we have a new system-some might consider it an Americaniz ed system- whereby cabinet ministers and mem bers of the government caucus operate by a different set of rules. We have seen that, Mr. Speaker, in other areas. The Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst) has been quoted as saying that he feels only the 18 cabinet ministers represent the province. That will be news to the many people who vote for 57 MLAs in an election. We see other examples.

We saw just recently, just yesterday, when reports were being distributed to the press before they were distributed to members of the Legislature, something that is not acceptable. Again, we are seeing, with the Minis ter of Education and Training (Mr. Derkach), further evidence of the fact that this government is not paying attention to the privileges of this Legislature, which is nothing more or less than the privileges of the public of Manitoba to be informed first, rather than certain individual members of a certain caucus informed first about impor tant public matters. Mr.

Speaker, I ask you, when you look at this, to review the clear evidence in terms of Beauchesne when we talk about what is a matter of privilege; that it is indeed a serious matter.

I ask you to reflect on whether we still are a functioning Legislature, or whether we are going to be subject to a different set of rules set by an arrogant government that feels that it can have one set of rules for its cabinet and one set of rules for the Legislature, something that has never been accepted in hundreds of years of parliam entary tradition, something that would des troy the ver y syste m of parli ame ntary democracy that we hold dear in this province of Manitoba.

I would submit to you that by ruling that this is a prima facie case, a matter of privilege, you will be defending the rights of Parliame nt, defending the rights of the members of this Legislature and defending the rights of the public of Manitoba. Mr. Kevin Lamoure ux (Second Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, we must appeal to you, Sir, in your capacity as Speaker of this Assembly, to ask you to ensure that the rights of the members are, in fact, protected.

You are charged with the duty of determining whether or not a prima facie case of privilege exists in order that debate on a motion which must accompany such a matter be given precedence. Accor ding to Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, 6th Edition, Citation 117 , in doing so, you must be satisfied with two things: (1 ) that privileges appear to be sufficiently involved to justify giving such precedence; and (2) also that the matter that is being raised is being raised at the earliest possible time. The member for River Heights (Mrs.

Carstairs) has demon strated that, in fact, it is being introduced at its earliest time, and in terms with No. 1, the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) had asked, during the Estimates process, the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Derkach) questions regarding capital expenditures. The Minister of Education and Training had given us the impression that nothing would be released until the overall capital plan has been brought forward by the government.

We then found out that certain members of this Cham ber, all of whom happen to be with the Conservative Party, have been given information that, in fact, we were denied from the Minister of Education and Training during the Estima tes process. Yesterday, during Question Period, once again, it reinforces what, in fact, the government has done. I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, to take it under advisement and bring back to the Chamber your results. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

I would like to thank all honourable members for their advice concerning this matter of privilege as raised by the honourable member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs), and as it is indeed a serious matter, I will take this matter under advisement, peruse Hansard and peruse the rules that will apply to such a matter. I would like to thank all honou rable members. * (1 345)

May 29, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2658 Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Routine Proceedings, may I direct the attention of honourable mem bers to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us today His Excellency Wen Yezhan, who is the Am bassador of the People's Republic of China. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon , sir. Also with us this afternoon in the Speaker's Gallery, we have Her Excellency Laila Valera, the High Comm issioner of Trinidad and Tobago; and the honourable Winston Dookeran, the Deputy Prime Minister of Trinidad and Tobago.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. Also with us this afternoon, we have from the Green Valley School sixty Grade 5 students, and they are under the direction of Mr. Tim Sawatzky. This school is located in the constituency of the honou rable Mi ni ste r of Hi ghways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for St. James (Mr.

Edwards), I have reviewed the petition, and it conforms with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Mr. Clerk (Wllllam Remnant): To the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba.

The petition of the undersigned The Salvation Army Grace General Hospital, humbly sheweth: THAT The Salvat ion Army Grace General Hospital Incorporation Act be amended to reflect the amalgamation of the Governing Council of The Salvation Army, Canada East, with the Governing Council of The Salvation Army, Canada West and forming the Governing Council of The Salvation Army in Canada, and further to permit The Salvation Army Grace General Hospital to own and/or operate one or more elderly and infirm persons' housing accomm odations as referred to in The Elderly and Infirm Persons' Housing Act, including a personal care home or homes, and to reflect the current organizational structure.

WHEREFORE your petitioner humbly prays that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to pass

an act for the purposes above mentioned. And as in duty bound your petitioner will ever pray. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the 19 88-89 report of the Clean Environment Com mission of Manitoba. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Biii 63-The Northern Affairs Amendment Act Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld), that Bill 63, The Northern Affairs Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les Affaires du Nord, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of th e conte nts of this bill, recommends it to the House. I am pleased to table his message as well, Mr. Speaker. Motion agreed to. Biii 64-The Energy Rate Stablllzatlon Repeal Act Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), that Bill 64, The Energy Rate Stabilization Repeal Act; Loi abrogeant la

Loi sur la stabilisation des empr unts d'Hydro-Manitoba a l'etranger, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant-Gove rnor, having been advised of the cont e nts of this bill , recommends it to the House, and furthermore , I will table the Lieutenant-Governor's message attached to the motion. Motion agreed to. Biii 66-The Winnipeg Canoe Club Incorporation Amendment Act Mrs. Shirley Render (St. Vltal): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Vodrey), that Bill 66, The Winnipeg Canoe Club

2659 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 1991 Incorporation Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi constituant en corporation "The Winnipeg Canoe Club," be introduced and that the same be now received and read for the first time. Motion agreed to. * (1 350) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Clvll Servants Confllct of Interest Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, yesterday in Question Period, the Deputy Premier (Mr.

Downey), in answer to a question about the activity of senior political staff with the Pr em ier, dealing in the activity of Seech Gajadharsingh and Claro Paqueo, answered in terms of the senior staff of the Premier that it was the position of the government on the record that individuals who worked in any ministerial office are free on their own time to participate in whatever activities they feel are in their own interests.

I would ask the Pr emier : When did the government exemp t senior political staff of the government of the day from the 19 84 conflict of interest guidelines passed and published in 19 84 and published in '85? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, clearly, the reference was to being able to participate in political activities, as is provided for by the changes to The Civil Service Act that was passed by the former NOP administration, activities that have allowed many mem bers of the public service to run for public office for New Democrats, for Liberals, for Conservatives.

Clearly, there was no intent whatsoever, nor could there be any opportunity, to waive the rules and regulations with respect to The Civil Service Act and The Conflict of Interest Act. They apply to all public servants and politically appointed public servants as well, Mr. Speaker. Immigration Consultants Investigation Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I am pleased to see the Premier changing the position the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) took in this House, because clearly there is a totally different set of- This is not the first time that we have had problems with the Deputy Premier, Mr.

Speaker, and I would suggest it is a very serious matter dealing with the integrity of the public service and the senior public service, especially in cases of such importance where people who are immi grants to this country and this province are potentially involved in an investigation, where people are preying on their vulnerabil ity in terms of the immi gration to this province. Mr. Speaker, my question to the Premier is: Will he table all the reports and investigations that have been conducted by the government? The Premier mentioned a number of reports and investigations that would take place.

We have asked the Premier to have an independent investigation outside of government. Yesterday's answer by the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) certainly lent credence, I think, to that position of having it outside of the provincial government. Can the Premier table the reports of all the investigations? Will he now be agreeing to go to an ind ep en den t in vesti gation to deal wit h the associations, not only in the internal public service, but the allegations dealing with linkages with these two individuals to the Premier's own political activity? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, firstly, the reports in the investigations that are going to be conducted and the inquiries by the RCMP will be the most independent ones that we could have in this province. If the Leader of the Opposition believes that the RCMP somehow will not be independent in their investigation, I think he ought to say so publicly. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, the independence of the Civil Service Comm ission for their reviews is set by virtue of their requirements under the act whereby this government cannot remove a Civil Service Commis sioner. They are responsible to this Legislature.

It would take a two-thirds vote of this Le gislatur e to rem ove a Civil Servic e Commis sioner. The senior staff of the Civil Service Commis sion who remain in place are the same senior staff who were in place under the former NOP administration. That inquiry will be the most independent that we could conduct into the affairs and the actions of a public servant in this pro vince. Any and all allegations, whether made in this Chamber, whether made in the media, whether made in any other way are being referred to both of those investigations depending on their application. Certainly, all is

May 29, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2660 being referred to the RCMP and anything that has to do with the public service of Manitoba is being referred to the Civil Service for their inclusion as part of the evidence in their investigations. Mr. Sp eaker, all of the resu lts of th ose investigations will, indeed, be made public. * (1 355) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Premier well knows that the RCMP is the legal authority to investigate criminal matters. I have never questioned that. Mr.

Speaker, the question remains: Who will be in vestiga ting the re lationship wi th the two individuals who were involved in the Premier's own leadership race and are now implicated and being investigated for immi gration consulting? Yesterday, we had an announcement from another department where we have $75,000 missing, and the Securities Commis sion has taken action on that case. We have had another part of this investigation dribble out of the govern ment's Department of Family Services. We have other departments all over government investigating.

Is the Civil Service Comm ission-or who is investigating the relationship between the two individuals involved and their influence with the Pr emi er hims elf in terms of the Provinc e of Manitoba? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I have no idea as to what allegations the influence is producing upon myself. Until the Leader of the Opposition wants to make an allegation, I am in no position to refer anything. If he has something, I will refer it to either the RCMP and/or the Civil Service Comm ission.

The Civil Service Comm ission is em powered under the act legally to do the investigations that are called for with respect to any and all actions on the part of a civil servant, any civil servant in this province. That is what they are empo wered to do. Further to that, every single area of involvement of the individual who was named in the 1-T earn report, Mr. Paqueo, have been examined by various government departments which is why it has produced:

a) a revoking of his licence as marriage commissioner;

b) a revoking of the appointment, which he was given by the former NO P government, as a notary public;

c) his licence temporarily suspended as a real estate broker. In every aspect, those matters are being examined to seek, under our legislation, what involvement he might have with respect to provincial government appointments, statutes or whatever have you. In every case, we are taking the appropr iate action. If the member believes that action is not sufficient, then let him lay information before us that we can turn over to either

a) the Civil Service Comm ission or

b) the RCMP, and it will be dealt with. Abuse Treatment Programs Funding Ms.BeckyBarrett(Welllngton): Mr. Speaker, this government has repeatedly refused to provide adequate resources and services to adult survivors of sexual abuse, often with tragic consequences.

Given the recent drama tic upswing in abuse survivors disclosing what has happened to them in their past and their stories, including just in the last 24 hours people from Knowles Centre, recent residential school disclosur es and Cameron Kerley on the radio this morning, will the Minister of Family Services now recognize the severity of this problem by reconsidering his previous totally inadequate budgetary decisions in this matter? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, the member is full well aware that this department has received the largest incr eas e in bu dget of any depa rtment in government. We also recognize the needs of very vulnerable people in society in many areas of my department, and I have referenced these for the member before. There certainly are needs that this department would like to address. We do have the largest increase in our budget of any department, and we have decisions to make of where to put that particular funding. The member references the disclosures and the news media reports about the Knowles Centre.

I would remind her that it is the subject of a police investigation, and there will also be an external review comm ittee involved with that situation. * (1 400) Knowles Centre Inc. Abuse Investigation Ms. BeckyBarrett( Welllngton): Mr. Speaker, the member is fully aware, on this side, of the total lack of increase for funding available to Child and Family Services agency programs that deal with this, that the major bulk of the increase in Family Services' budget is for social assistant increases because of

2661 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 1991 the dreadful roles that this government is playing in job creation. The Fam ily Service s department rece ived no tifica tion six wee ks ago tha t the re were allegations of abuse at Knowles Centre. Can the Minister of Family Services explain the delay in im plemen ting this review that he has jus t undertaken when he stated this morning in the paper, "I'm very concerned that proper procedures were followed and that information is acted upon immed iately"? If he is so concerned about it, why has he taken six weeks to begin this procedure? Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Famlly Services): Mr. Speaker, I would inform the member that, while allegations were brought to the department some weeks ago, they were allegations. The disclosure that has been made to the police department, which is now the subject of a police investigation, happened within the last two weeks. We are reviewing the regulations and standards, and they clearly state the responsibil ity of people who work in the agencies to report this immediately, and these will be the subject of the external review.

We have met with the board at Knowles, and we will be bringing this to their attention, that the guidelines are very clear. There should be no confusion with any service providers, what their responsibility is when there is the disclosure of abuse towards children. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, there should be no confusion on the part of the minister that six weeks is an unconscionably long period of time.

Unlike previous investigations which have not yet seen the light of day, will the minister guarantee that the reco mmen dations coming out of this investigation and any report are made public so that other agencies can be helped in this matter should situations occur in their agencies, and so that children who are vulnerable will be protected and know where to go for help in these situations? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can assure the member that the substance of the external review will be made public and that we will certainly be acting on those recommendations.

I would caution her that under The Child and Family Services Act, there are details of investigations which cannot be made public for the protection of the child, so that all of this information does not become public information. Cartwright, Manitoba High School Closure Justification Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education and Training.

Last evening the Turtle Mountain School Division met yet once again, and once again they refused to tell the parents of the children attending the Cartwright school what the economic or academic reasons were for the closure of their school effective June 30. Can the minister tell the House today why he will not instruct the school division to provide the rationale to the parents who have the greatest vested interest in the education of their children? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, although the member for the third party will not know necessarily that I have met with the school board, indeed, I have. As a matter of fact, I think it was published in the papers that I had met with the school board, and at that time I indicated very clearly to the school board that it is incumbent upon them to meet with the commu nity that is affected and to enter into dialogue, into discussion and into debate, if you like, as to the rationale for the closur e or the transferring of students from one school to another. However, Mr.

Speaker, I have to indicate to you very clearly and to the House very clearly that this is a matter which is within the jurisdiction of the school board. It is their decision with regard to transferring the students but, indeed, it is also very important that all school boards dialogue with the communi ties, especially when emotional things of this nature affect a comm unity as they have in the Cartwright situation. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Speaker, I was well aware, as the minister should have remembered, since we had a full discussion in Estimates about the meeting that he had with the Turtle Mountain School Division. Can the minister tell the House today, if it is incumbent of the school division to provide this information, and they are not providing the information, why it is not incumbent upon him to make sure they do? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, unfortunately the Leader of the third party has made many allegations and sometimes without substance. There are two trustees who represent the area who sit on all board

May 29, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2662 meetings and, indeed, have a responsibil ity to report to their com mun ities and to participa te in the discussions and in the decision making at the board level. Mr. Speaker, the board memb ers are accountable to the people who elect them, and indeed it is their responsibility to make sure that the information goes back to that commu nity.

In meeting with the school board, I made it very clear that, indeed, it is important for them, as a corporate body, to meet with the people from the Cartwright area to ensure that the people in that area have complete information. Mr. Speaker, we have undergone many school closures in this province. We have undergone many areas of transferring students from one school to another. In all cases, it is important that there be discussion and dialogue between the parents who are going to be affected, the students who are going to be affected and the commu nities that are going to be affected.

Indeed, we call upon the school board and the communi ty to come together and discuss the impact and the effects of this in a full debate and in a full discussion. School Board Meeting Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, but the school act very clearly says that there must be the availabil ity of parents to meet with the trustees.

That availability was denied last evening when certain individuals could not get into the room because of space, despite the fact that the school division had been informed that there would be an overflow crowd and were, in fact, asked by parents in the Cartwright area to move to a larger site, a decision they refused to take.

Can the minister tell the House today if he will now enforce his own school act and ensure that the parents who wish to communic ate with their trustees are given that opportunity by requiring the school division to hold their meetings in a place which is suitable for the attendance at that meeting? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I had staff of my department speak with the superintendent just a short time ago to ascertain whether or not there was any attempt to keep parents and people who may want to attend the meeting out of the meeting.

I was told by the superintendent that there were 40 extra chairs set up in the meeting room tor the parents who might be attending, for the people who might be attending from the Cartwright area. That is the information I received. I am told also that there were in excess of 60 people who did arrive at the meeting, and the room was filled with people who were from the Cartwright area. This matter is a very serious one for me because it impacts upon the quality of education for students. I therefore am calling today, publicly on both sides, to meet and to be able to resolve this matter.

In that spirit, I am offering the services of a conciliation person who will be prepared to meet with the two sides and will be able to conduct a meeting and to try and resolve this matter in the interest of the education and the quality of education for students in the Cartwright area. Cartwright, Manitoba High School Funding Mr. Jerry Storie (Flln Flon): Mr. Speaker, it is interesting, to say the least, to watch the Minister of Education and Training and the Leader of the Liberal Party wring their hands about the problems that are being faced by small communi ties as their schools close around them.

In 19 88, these two members, more than any other, were responsible for moving the province into a position where they would fund 80 percent worth of the contribution to private schools, a move that is now costing the Province of Manitoba $1 0 million this year-$ 10 million. Mr. Speaker, I will be interested to know whether the Liberal Leader will join me-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Flin Flon, kindly put your question now, please. Mr.

Storie: Perhaps it is time for the Leader of the Liberal Party to join me in asking the Minister of Education and Training: Will he now acknowledge to the people of Cartwright, the parents of the students at Cartwright colleg iate that there is something that this government can do? It can provide some additional financial support as an interim measure to keep Cartwright school open. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I must advise visitors in the gal ler y here today that you mus t not participate in any manner in the proceedings of the Assem bly. *(1 41 0)

2663 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 1991 Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, unfortuna tely, the member for Flin Flon, when he was Minister of Education, was making such contributions toward education as 2 percent at a time when revenues in this province were in excess of 6 percent, and he thought it was all right at that time to do that. Mr. Speaker, let me indicate that we have done everything we can in terms of supporting education in this province this year.

Indeed, given the financial circums tances of the province, where our revenues are at zero, this department still received the third or 3.5 percent overall, one of the three largest departments to receive increases from government during this fiscal year. That is an indication that education is a priority. Mr. Speaker, let me go on to say that you cannot simply answer all questions by dumping large sums of money every time there is a problem. That is what the NOP have constantly called upon every time they sense a problem, is to dump more money into a situation.

School boards in this province ha ve a responsibility, Mr. Speaker. They have met the challenge-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the people of Cartwright will be pleased to know that $1 60,000 spent on saving a school is dumping; $10 million on private schools without one additional student is dumping. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. This is not a time for debate. The honourable member for Flin Flon, kindly put your question, please. Mr. Storie: My que stion is to the Minister of Education and Training.

The minister has announced today that he is prepared to provide a facilitator or a mediator to resolve this dispute. Will the minister now admit or agree to provide to this com mittee the flexibility that they require to settle this, including providing additional funding to the Turtle Mountain School Division if that is the only solution to resolve this matter and save the school in Cartwright? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I guess, one can understand that, if you are in opposition, you do not have to be accountable or responsible for the statements you make.

Indeed, the member for Flin Flon is demonstrating just that. Mr. Speaker, let me assure the Assembly today that, if we did not have to spend $550 million on interest costs incurred by the former administration of this province, we would have abundant sums of money to put into place for educational program s. It is that memb er, who was a part of that administration, who caused this kind of dilemma and this problem. Mr.

Speaker, we have been able to afford to the educational areas of this province as much money as we can, given that our revenues are zero percent this year, given the fact that we have a $550-million interest cost incurr ed by the former administration. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable minister- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. School Division Boundary Review Mr. Jerry Storie (Flln Flon): Mr.

Speaker, the Turtle Mountain School Division has received about 6 percent or 8 percent less than inflation in the last two years, while private schools in this province have received 10 0 percent in funding. That is priority. My question to the minister is: The people of Cartwright, the commu nity of Cartwright, may be asking this minister to establish a separate school division for the comm unity of Cartwright so they can operate their own school.

Given this government's intention of establishing a boundaries review commi ssion to look at the whole question of school division boundaries, will this minister now consider asking the Turtle Mountain School Division to suspend this decision until that boundary review is done and until the people of Cartwright have had an opportunity to present their case to this boundary review commission? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, in terms of the separate school division and establishing it at this present time, indeed the member should know very clearly that there are processes one has to go through in order to be able to achieve anything of that nature. I have met with the parents and the communi ty of Cartwright on two separate occasions. Indeed, I have acknowledged that I would also meet with

May 29, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2664 them later this afternoon to try and ensure that this matter is resolved. The member simply calls for more money to be dumped into this situation. How many other commu nities are there out there that are facing similar difficulty? There are school boards that have been elected with certain responsibilities, and indeed it is their responsibility to determine which schools will be open, which will be closed and where students will be transferr ed.

The me m ber knows that very clearly, that it is not a matter for the Minister of Education and Training to intervene in those kinds of situations. School of Psychiatric Nursing Selklrk Closure Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, last night in Selkirk, psychiatric nurses put the Premier (Mr. Filmon) on trial for killing the School of Psychiatric Nursing in Selkirk and for his lack of understanding of mental health care in this province. The verdict was guilty. The judge allowed the voters of Selkirk and of Manitoba to decide the sentence. My question is to the Premier.

Will he now order his Minister of Health to rescind the closure of the school? Hon. Donald Orchard {Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, at some point in time, the people of Selkirk may well put their MLA on trial, particularly when he makes some of the em barrassing comme nts that he has in posing past questions in the House. Let me tell my honourable friend, as I have indi cated to him in the past, that we are consolidating the two schools of psychiatric nursing Into one school in Brandon.

That school in Brandon, coupled with the opportunity to have a baccalaureate program established at Brandon University, will enhance the training opportunities and provide a professional discipline in a reformed mental health system that I think all Manitobans will be proud of. Mr. Speaker, I recognize that my honourable friend representing the constituency of Selkirk has to bring forward their case on behalf of the town and the community. I wonder if my honourable friend has discussed this issue with the member for Brandon East (Mr.

Evans), who, I believe, is quite pleased that there will be an enhanced level of educational opportunity in Brandon, or whether my honourable friend from Selkirk is simply operating in isolation within caucus. Selklrk Closure Justification Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, can this Minister of Health explain why he is spending $45 million on a new institution in Winnipeg when last night the prosecution in the trial revealed that it would cost $800,000 to keep the school open? Hon. Donald Orchard {Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I can certainly draw one conclusion-that my honourable friend would never be a Finance minister. Mr. Speaker, the decisions that we are making in health care are system decisions which have impact across the system. Those decisions will, I think, be quite well accepted in the reform of the mental health system that this government has embarked on, a process that was urged upon governments in the past and not proceeded with.

My honourable friend talks about the cost of operating the school at Selkirk, and there will be opportunities created in the city of Brandon with the consolidation of the School of Psychiatric Nursing, not only in terms of em ployment and possibly investment in Brandon, but certainly in terms of student activity in the city of Brandon. • (1 420) Selklrk Mental Health Centre Long-Term Planning Mr. Gregory Dewar {Selkirk): During last year's election campaign, this government gave no indication that they were considering closing the school.

A very simple question for this minister: What are his long-term plans for the Selkirk Mental Health Centre? Hon. Donald Orchard {Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, long-term plans for the Selkirk Mental Health Centre include, in part, discussions with the federal government for the potential establishment of a high security forensic facility, an issue that has been before governme nts of this province for a number of years.

If my honourable friend, as part of a New Democratic caucus that publicly says they are in favour of reform of the mental health system-th en they will be asked to support a reduction in the number of psychiatric beds throughout the province

2665 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 1991 of Manitoba. When that decision comes, I hope they do not quickly disappear in their support for a reformed- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Chlld Care Centres Special Needs Children Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Family Services. The Discovery child care centre in St. James is being forced to cancel its special needs program because government funding is $8,000 below what the centre requires to continue this high quality program.

Accord ing to government regulations, a child care centre will only receive funding for a trained staff complement that does not exceed two-thirds of the total staff. However, given the fact that special needs children require specialized care from highly trained workers, and that as a result of this cancellation of the special needs program at the Discovery Children's Centre, fewer special needs children in St.

James will be able to access this quality care, my question for the minister is: Will he review the regulations and the money given to this centre and others that provide service to special needs children to ensure that special needs children in St. James and around this province receive the quality care that they need and deserve? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, yes, we are aware of the concern that has been raised, and we are meeting with the individuals in the next few days.

I would remind the member that we have put additional funding into special needs children in day care, some $370,000 in this last budget. We are aware of the concerns that this specific centre has raised, and naturally these apply to others as well. Department staff have become aware of that, and we will be meeting with these people in the next few days. Mr. Edwards: Well, Mr.

Speaker, one thing the minister may want to take to that meeting is the fact that this child care centre received a total funding increase of 2 percent which was not even enough to include the 3.5 percent increase the GSTwill force upon them. Funding Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Family Services tell this House how child care centres are supposed to provide the quality care that they owe the citizens of this province when this government will not even ensure that the centres can meet the increased cost caused by their Tory cousins in Ottawa? Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): I would point to the member that, by far and away, in excess of 80 percent of the costs of day care centres is for staffing and that the GST impact is limited to the expenditures and other portions of their budget. I can tell the member that we have substantially increased funding in the day care system over the last four years. It has increased by some 60 percent, and we have announced some structural changes that are going to take place within the day care syste m.

I would re fer to his Leader's commen ts of May 20, 19 87, when she is quoted in Hansard as saying, • . .. my position has always been that it is the child who I would like to see the subsidy go to, not the day care centre." Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, the shortfall for this centre is $8,000. Chlld Care Centres Special Needs Children Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Finally, for the Premier: How does the Premier justify a $350,000 grant and over $4 million in loans to build a highrise for wealthy seniors in St. James, Mr. Speaker, but does not have $8,000 for St.

James special needs children at the Discovery day care centre? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, with respect to -(in ter jection)- if the memb er for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) will permit me to answer the question, I will be happy to respond. With respect to the funding for Family Services, we increased funding in this budget more for Family Services than any area of government, 6.9 percent in crease in funding for Family Servi ces, in recognition of the priority that we place in Family Services.

With respect to funding to child care in this province, the increase in this year's budget to funding in child care brings to 50 percent the increase that we have put on child care since we have taken governmen t just over three years

May 29, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2666 ago---50 percent increase, Mr. Speaker, to child care. We think that is a very strong commitment to day care. We have carried through our commitment, not by the rhetoric that used to be put forth by the NOP, not by the empty words that were put forward by the Liberal Party Leader when she was advocating for day care, by real money, a 50 percent increase in just over three years, Mr. Speaker. City Councll Reduction Government Position Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): My question is for the Minister of Urban Affairs.

One of the several inconsistencies in the Eldon Ross re port is that, on the one hand, it acknowledges the voice of the many Winnipeggers who emph asize the im portance of commu nity participation and political accountability in municipal affairs; on the other hand, the report followed the mini ster's corp orate agenda rec omm ending measur es to reduc e both par tic ipation and accountability with large wards, optional commu nity commi ttees, the deletion of the RAG groups and a diminished role for elected officials on boards and comm issions.

My question for the minister is: Could he indicate how, in his review of the report, he will resolve these apparent inconsistencies? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, as I indicated yesterday, the position of the government will be made known in hopefully a very short pe riod of time. What was pr esented yesterday was the report of the commi ttee, that commi ttee that we asked to go out and make recom mendations to us. Whether we accept any or all of their recommendations remains to be seen and we will, in due course, table the bill in the House presenting the position of the government.

Wards Boundary Review Committee Background Research Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, my second question is for the Minister of Urban Affa irs. He knows that for some time I have been concerned about the absence of a clear research base for this particular ministerial review. I would like to table pages 19 and 25 from the report and to ask the minister to take another look at these .. Table 1 does not recognize either the role of metropolitan government in Ontario nor the significance of double me mber constitu en cies.

Table 2 deals with com parative salaries of councillors using material from '84, '88 and '91 when a few phone calls would have given us comparable data. Would the minister undertake to reconsider the flimsy research base of this report and to correct such areas of misleading information? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): As I have indicated on a number of occasions, the report is just that-a report. We may or may not accept any or all of the recomme ndations. The position of the government will be made known in due course. City Council Reduction Government Position Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Given that even the Eldon Ross report recognizes that with larger sizes of wards, election expenses and the cost of larger campaigns should be a major concern for the government, will the minister undertake to review this matter and to ensure in his new legislation that corporate financial support will not determine the outcome of Winnipeg elections? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, we have said we will be reviewing the report in detail. Claro Paqueo Homeland Realty Agreements Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radlsson): Mr.

Speaker, the cur re nt in vestiga tions into imm igration consu lting present an op portunity to raise awa reness and to do something about the longstanding problems in Canadian imm igration sys tems. We know that there ar e many irregu larities in the Claro Paqueo case, and today, for the first time, we are made aware that there is some money that has gone missing. My question for the Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs is: Given Claro Paqueo's disregard for the regulations of The Real Estate Broker's Act, the fact that his bond was only $20,000 and that Mr.

Yang lost $55,000, can the min ister tell the House how many other deals involving Homeland Realty there are in Manitoba? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, no, I cannot. The matter is under investigation by the Manitoba Securities Commis sion which will be

2667 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 1991 holding a hearing on June 5. At that time, details of the investigation will be brought forward for discussion and decision. I await their investigation and that hearing which is open to the public. • (1 430) Ms. Cerllll: Mr. Speaker, for the same minister: Can the minister confirm that one of the conditions contained in the offer to purchase is that Mr. Yang obtained landed imm igrant status and if that condition was written into the offer for purchase of any other Homeland Realty agreements? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr.

Speaker, I repeat, this matter is under investigation by the Manitoba Securities Comm ission . As minister responsible for the Manitoba Securities Comm ission, it would be very inappropriate for me to be making comment on cases that are currently under investigation and awaiting hearing. I do not wish to pre-empt, prejudge or interfere with, in any way, that investigation. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that the Addresses for Papers and Orders for Return will be held another day.

I would ask, Mr. Speaker, whether there is a willingness of the House to waive private mem bers' hour and to consider bills till six o'clock tonight. Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private members' hour? Is there leave? No, leave is denied. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, would you call the bills in the following order: Second readings Bills 4, 50 and 49, and then adjourned debate Bills 41 , 42, 38, 44 and 43. SECOND READINGS Biil 4-The Health Services Insurance Amendment Act Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I move, seconded by the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs.

Mitchelson), that Bill 4, The Health Services Insurance Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur l'assurance- maladie, be now read a second time and be referred to a commi ttee of the House. Motion presented. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to present to the House Bill 4, amendments to The Health Services Insurance Act. The act which provides the legislative basis for the oper ations of the Manit oba Health Ser vices Comm ission received Royal Assent on July 21 , 19 70. Since that time, various amendments have been made to the act as conditions changed within the health system and the commu nity it served. It has been some time now since the act was amended, Mr. Speaker.

The bill now before honourable mem bers contains a number of housekeeping items such as definition and redefinition of terms to bring the wording of the act into line with other relative legislation. Other minor amendments are aimed at improving the admin istrative process of the work of the comm ission and in other cases, simply providing legislative authority for administrative practices which have developed over the past number of years. I will elaborate on those later in my remarks, Mr. Speaker. Other amendme nts are more substantive in nature, Mr.

Speaker, and I would draw the attention of honourable members to a few of them. At the present time, the Man itoba Health Services Commis sion has the authority to inspect the books, accounts and records of hospitals and personal care homes. An amendment is proposed that would extend this provision to include those professional health care practitioners who receive payment from the Manitoba Health Services Commission.

This amendment is simply, we believe, a good business practice which will provide the necessary checks and balances and give greater accountability to the taxpayer in the expenditure of public funds. In addition, this amendment to allow access to books, accounts, et cetera, of medical practitioners will bring our legislation and our ability, via the legislation, in line with practices in other provinces such as Alberta, Ontario and Newfoundland who do cur rently have those pro visi ons within their respective insurance acts. Mr.

Speak er, under The Health Ser vices Insurance Act there is currently a provision for a medical review comm ittee. That comm ittee is authorized to review the present and past practice of a medical prac titioner to dete rmine if the individual's practice pattern differed significantly from that practice pattern of an average similar

May 29, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2668 medical practice. If so, that committee has the authority to investigate and, if necessary, assess and issue an order for the recovery of any overpayment that may have occurred. The make-up of that commi ttee under the current legislation allows for repr esentation from the Manitoba Health Services Comm ission, the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba and the Manitoba Medical Associat ion.

Recent years, however, have seen a circums tance develop where the MMA has chosen not to be represented at these medical review committee hearings and they have had fairly su bstantive reasons around their nonparticipation which this legislation is designed to resolve. What will happen, Mr. Spe aker, with the amendment onc e passed is there will be a distinction made within the legislation between the review process and the judicial process, if you will. By judicial process, I mean the assessment of levies requiring repayment by practitioners.

This is a change that was requested by the Manitoba Medical Association and which has been incorporated in this le gisla tion. As I said , the me dical review comm ittee's ma ndate under the present act includes both the investigative process and the assessment recovery process, the judicial part of their operations as enacted in the current legislation. Now this is the very issue that has caused the MMA some concern and, in fact, is probably the major contributing factor to their nonparticipation at medical review comm ittee hearings.

We do not think that is appropriate that they would not be part of that, and we have accepted their concerns and incorporated them into the proposed amendment, which does separate those two functions. I am advised that both the Manitoba Medical Association and the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba are supportive of this amendment.

I would remind the honourable members that the make-up of this comm ittee allows for the review of practice of medical professionals by fellow medical professionals but, as well, with the Manitoba Health Services Commi ssion represe ntation present, provides a balance by having nonmedical people also there on behalf of the commission. A new and very imp ortant

section is also proposed which will provide the commission with the authority and mechanism to recover monies paid out inappropriately, for example, when payment is claimed for services not provided; another example, when a practit ioner mi srepresents to the comm ission the nature or the extent of the services provided and, hence, has overbilled the comm ission and the ta xpa yers; when an individual misre presents the nature or the extent of the service to the commission; when the service provided is not an insured benefit; when an individual is not insured at the time of service delivery.

A housekeeping amendment is proposed that will authorize the board of the Manitoba Health Services Comm ission to make regu lations respecting the designation of institutions which are not hospitals, but institutions which provide treatment of injury or disease. For example, Mr. Speaker, these facilities would inc lude the Manitoba Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation, Mount Carmel Clinic, health centres, Klinic, the Manitoba Cardiac Institute and others.

Although we have over the years funded, for instance, the Manitoba Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation, in reality there was not an ability to do that by legislation, and that is one of those amendments that I mentioned earlier that is part of this legislation, which bring into legislation established management practices that have grown up over the years. Mr.

Speaker, it is generally acknowledged that the proliferation of private diagnostic laboratories could lead to the unnecessary duplication of diagnostic services and expenses for the provision of those diagnostic services to the health care system and to the people of Manitoba. An amendment is proposed in this bill for the licensing and operation of diagnostic laboratories, which will strengthen and clarify the existing act. It will aid in avoiding the proliferation of private diagno stic labo ra tories by spellin g out the requiremen ts for approval to operate such facilities.

This amendment also provides for the inspection of records and equipment of such laboratories which submit claims to the commission. • (1 440) (Mr. Jack Penner, Acting Speaker, in the Chair) This provision to inspect and audit should assist in the earlier detection of inappr opria te billing practices by labo rat ories and, henc e , the inappr opriate use of public funds. When that happens, I think one can draw the very easy conclusion by those inappropriate billings and use

2669 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 1991 of service that, in fact, the health care budget is, in effect, not providing service to individuals if the money is being wasted or inap propriately spent. In addition, Mr. Acting Speaker, approval is required to enlarge, to relocate or to establish a branch laboratory or specimen collection centre.

Some of the considerations which will be taken into account before such approval is granted include the number of centres curr ently operating in a given geographic area of the province, the tests and classes of tests already performed in that same geographic are of the province or region of the province, and information regarding the utilization of existing facilities and their capacity to handle increased volume should increased capacity be necessary. In ge neral, Mr.

Acting Speaker, as I have illustrated, this bill proposes amendments which, while co-operating with professional health care organizations, will imp rove the adminis trative efficiency and effectiveness of the Manitoba Health Services Comm ission and strengthen its authority to protect the public interest as it carries out its services to the people of Manitoba.

I think it is important to point out that these amendmen ts will allow us, where inappropriate billings and, in fact, wrong billings have been made to the Manitoba Health Services Commission for either ser vices performed or alleg ed to be performed or laboratory testing procedures-where they have been billed in an inappropriate manner, it allows us the ability to recover those on behalf of the taxpayers.

We have had some exper iences in the past, in the very recent past, within the last three years, that have shown that we need these improved and more up-to-date provisions within the Manitoba Health Services Comm ission through the act that we are now amending. I simply reiterate to my honourable friends that these provisions will help us to provide the quality health care that Manitobans wish to have amid the very, very difficult challenge fiscally that we face in this province and that, indeed, the nation faces and all provincial jurisdictions face in the provision of health care. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I simply close by saying that I would ask my honourable friends' co-operation to move this bill on to committee. At comm ittee stage, staff will be available to answer any detailed quest ions ho nourable mem bers mi ght have regarding the bill and its mandated provisions. Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Acting Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Biii 50 -The Liquor Control Amendment Act Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr.

Acti ng Speaker, I move that Bill- Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Acting Speaker, I declare a conflict of interest on this bill as per our rules and regulations. I will be withdrawing from debate and votes on this particular bill. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Penner): Thank you. *** Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Acting Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufe ld), that Bill 50, The Liquo r Co ntrol Amen dmen t Act (Loi mo difiant la

Loi sur la reglem entation des alcools), be now read a second time and be referred to a comm ittee of this House. Motion presented. Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Acting Speaker, the bill amending The Liquor Control Act contains a number of technical and operational amendments, as well as amendme nts that are designed to stimulate the hospitality industry and the tourism industry in Manitoba.

Among the amendments which can be described as technical in nature is the removal of all references in the act to the position of chief inspector, as this position has been incorporated with an existing position at the Liquor Control Com mi ssion. References to a chairman or vice-chairman have also been struck from the act, and the nongender titles of chairperson and vice-chair person have been substituted. This technical amendment is designed to bring the act up to date with more acceptable terminology.

In order to provide continuity with other Crown corporations and government agencies in the province, the title used for the chief executive officer

May 29, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2670 of the Liq uor Control Comm ission has been changed from general manager to president and CE O. There are also technical amendme nts contained within this bill which provide for the delineation of certain responsibilities of the board of comm issioners to the president and CEO. These changes have been made so that the president may exercise the powers of the commis sion with respect to day-to-day admi nistr ative func tions at the commission. Currently,

Section 20 of the act requires the Licensing Board to make recom mendations to the board of com missioners for approval of liquor licences. An amendment is proposed to make the decisions of the Licensing Board final. The board of commi ssioners would continue to hear appeals to those decisions. Pre viously, the board of commissioners, Mr. Acting Speaker, was hearing appeals on decisions that the board itself had made. This amendment corrects this inappropr iate situation.

In view of the amen dment that ma kes the decisions of the Licensing Board final, a provision has been added to require the Licensing Board to designate a panel of three of its members to hear applications from their beginning to their conclusion. This ensures that licensees will be treated fairly by having the same panel memb ers hear all the evidence and render a decision. • (1 450) The requirement that a hotel must be registered to allow licences to be issued within the building has been deleted.

This amen dment will allow a restaurant to be licensed even if it is connected or included within an unregistered hotel. However, this amendment will not allow for room service or mini-b ars without registration. Previously, if a hotel did not qualify for registration, it could not offer licensed dining facilities to its guests. A provision has also been made in these amendments to allow a dining room licence for a restaurant in a hotel to be issued to a person other than the owner of the hotel who holds the beverage room licence.

By removing this restriction, food service in hotels can be provided by restaurant chains or franchise operators. This will allow the hotel operator to rent the restaurant facility to a restaurateur who can enhance food services in the commu nity at little or no cost to the hotel owner.

Section 1 78, referring to the concept of limited-life hotels, has been deleted from the act, as there are no limited-life hotels left in the province and, hence, the legislation is archaic. From time to time, the comm ission has had inquiries about the idea of auctions for rare and expensive liquor products. A subsection has been added to allow the commission to conduct or permit others to conduct such an auction. The comm ission would only issue special perm its authorizing these auctions to reg istered, nonprofit organizations.

This would prevent a person from engaging in the business of auctioning liquor for profit, but would allow a charity, for example, to hold such an auction to generate funds for its cause. At present, the act provides that foreign manufacturers of spirits, wine and beer may have a direct, indir ect or contingent interest in the ownership or management of a licensed operation, but domestic suppliers may not. An amendment is proposed which would eliminate this discrimi natory provision and allow domestic manufacturers the same opportunity.

The commission will set a policy to ensure that licensees in which a manufacturer has an interest are obliged to offer a variety of products for manufacturers other than the owner and, of course, the comm ission would continue to ensure that the involvement of the manufacturers would not cause a licensee to discourage the sale or consum ption of the pr odu cts of other manufacturers. This amendment allows our local Canadian suppliers to operate on a level playing field with foreign suppliers.

As you are aware, there are a number of festivals and community events that contribute to the tourism industry in this province, and the hospitality industry in Manitoba is supported by strong, worthwhile associations that guide and assist their memb ers. I propose a number of amendments which are designed to augment these industries. In most cases, groups who organize weekend-long events suc h as festivals, commu nity fairs, baseball tournaments, et cetera, do not have the facilities to cool beer from Saturday to Sunday when the beer will be sold.

I propose an amendment which will, upon authorization by the com miss ion , allow prepaid orders for beer to be delivered from a hotel beer vendor to designated occasional permit fu nction loc ations on a Su nday. The even t organizer s will benefit by the service and hotels will benefit by not having to deal with beer which may

2671 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA May 29, 1991 have been impr operly stored prior to its being returned. At the present time, a cabaret licensee may not serve liquor prior to 5 p.m. daily. An amendment is proposed which would allow cabarets to be open and serve liquor with food during the lunchtime hours of 11 a.m. to 3 p.m. This will provide another option for the consumer and will as well enhance the food service opportunities in cabarets.

At the present time, Thanksgiving Day is defined as a holiday in the act and liquor service is not permitted in any licenced establishment with the exception of dining rooms, spectator activities or transportation licenced premises. An amendment is proposed which would make Thanksgiving Day a regular day of business for all classes of licence. The request to have this secular holiday excluded from the list of days on which liquor service is prohibited has been a request made for many years by all aspects of our hospitality industry.

To allow touris ts and business people the opportunity to consume alcohol without having a meal on a Sunday, I propose an amendment which would allow cocktail lounges in restaurants and hotels to operate as usual unless it was Easter Sunday or another holiday defined under the act. Service of liquor on Su nday in cocktail lounges will remove what is often thought to be an antiquated provision, particularly by out-of-province visitors who are able to experience this service in other jurisdictions.

Manitobans are no exception to the cou ntry-wide phenomenon that is seeing huge numbers of people crossing the border into the U.S. to take advantage of the economic and social amenities being offered to them there. I feel it is incumbent upon us to take some steps that will inspire Manitobans to be boosters of our own hospitality industry, and the removal of the restriction against having a drink in a lounge on a Sunday is one of those positive steps that we can take to become more competitive, not only with the United States but also with other provinces in Canada.

This amendment is merely an extension of exis ting Sunday service which is currently allowed under all classes of licence other than beverage rooms and cabarets. For example, a person can currently purchase a drink on a Sunday at curling clubs, golf clubs, Sunday Jets games or Blue Bomber games, beer gardens at summer festivals, the racetrack, the Concert Hall, theatres, sports clubs and facilities, private clubs such as the Irish club or at an exhibition at the Keystone Centre. We are hardly breaking new ground with this amendment.

This amendment will make it possible for dining room patrons to have a quiet drink while waiting for a table to be free in the dining room . It will enable businesspeople who arrive in town on a Sunday evening for a Monday morning meeting to get together in the lounge with others who may be in town for the same meeting rather than to have to meet in the hotel rooms themselves or in the dining room when they may not wish to purchase a meal. This will enable tourists who may come to Manitoba for a long weekend to have a relaxing drink after a day of sightseeing, shopping, skiing or some other form of recreation.

It is vital that our standards of service be of international quality as we seek to expand our tourism industry. This amendment is an opportunity to enhance those standards. I was most interested in the results of a survey done in British Columbia, Mr. Acti ng Speaker, which showed that in that province, which has the most liberal drinking laws in the country, there has been a steady decline in impaired drinking incidences since the open liquor laws were introduced. There has been a similar decline in impaired drinking charges in Manitoba since we introduced the toughest drinking and driving laws in the country.

Responsible attitudes towards liquor and an increased public education have led to a better understanding that, while one is allowed to drink, one is not allowed to drink and drive. The provincial government has done much over the past few years, Mr. Acti ng Speaker, to assist small rural hotels. The most significant of these changes has been the low- volume allowance beer discount system which was updated in 19 90 to give the highest discount rate to the smallest hotels. Under this revised system, a small rural hotel beer vendor who purchased $1 00,000 of domestic beer would receive a $1 2,000 discount.

This move provided beer vendors annual savings in increased discounts of approximately $1 .2 million. In 19 90, as well, we reduced supplementary licence fees from 12 percent to 7 percent and followed this with a further reduction to 2 percent in January 19 91 . This represented an annualized cost saving to the industry of $3.2 million. Since Augus t 19 89, the government has passed through, without mark up, supplier price increases

May 29, 1991 LEGISL AT IVE AS SEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 2672 on spirits. Of course, we also increased the border levies on casual importations over nine litres. The comm ission estimates that an additional six million litres of beer would be sold through the provincial retail system because of this move, with 90 percent of these sales being through hotels. Our toll-free phone-in service has saved long distance charges for rural licensees. We have el imina ted the bar category brand spi rits representation system, so that licensees may purchase more than 20 percent of any one bar brand.

Again in 19 90, the commission offered for sale several flavours of malt coolers additional to the product lines of hotel beer vendors. I appreciate the fact, Mr. Acting Speaker, that hotels with beverage rooms would like to have these cur rent amendm ents to further allow Sunday opening of beverage rooms. I appreciate, as well, that cabarets would like the same opportunity.

In response to those who feel that this legislation has not gone far enough, I would point out that there are some who feel that it goes too far, and it is my firm opinion that the majority of citizens feel that this amendment strikes the appropr iate balance be tween those who advocate total Su nday abstention and those who advocate wide-open Sunday drinking. As a point of interest, there are only two areas in Canada which will have more restrictive Sunday drinking laws than Manitoba after this amendment passes, those two areas being the Northwest Territor ies and Prince Edward Island.

Four other provinces will have similar legislation to our s and five, including the Yukon, will be more permissive than we are. I believe that we do not live in a vacuum, Mr. Acting Speaker, and as people travel back and forth across this continent, they will expect to find a similar degree of service. If we wish to remain com petitive , we mu st adj ust to meet those expectations which are in keeping with a vibrant hospitality industry. * (1 500) Mr. Acting Speaker, I believe this particular proposed amendment to The Liquor Control Act is appropriate for our province at this stage in its history.

Besides stimulating the hospitality and tourism industry and providing better service to the consumer, Sunday service has a very real potential to create mo re jobs for those who work in restaurants and hotels which have cocktail lounges. The creation of jobs for our citizens, while not the prim ary focus of this amendment, is a most welcome side effect of what I believe to be sensible and realistic legislation. It is a side effect which should not be overlooked, Mr. Acting Speaker, because it has significance for our province.

I ask for the support of the Assembly for this bill, and I thank you for the opportunity to speak at this time. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): I move, seconded by the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), that debate on this bill be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Biii 49-The Colleges and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Acti ng Speaker, I mo ve, seconded by the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr.

Neuf eld), that Bill 49, The Colleges an d Consequential Amen dments Act (Loi sur les colleges et mo difian t diverses disp osi tions legislatives), be now read a second time and be referred to committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Speaker, as we move, it is my pleasure this afternoon to speak to Bill 49, The Colleges and Consequential Amendme nts Act. We are com mitted to providing an education program in Manitoba which is based on the principles of excellence, equity, openness and responsiveness.

We are also committed to the principles of choice and relevance and integration and accountability. The bill which we have before us today will enable our com mu nit y colleges to achieve these edu cational principles for the benefit of all Manitobans. In Manitoba we have experienced some fundamen tal changes in terms of our economic, social and cultural dynamics. Ther e have been significant changes to our demographic characteristics as well.

As we move through the 19 90s and into the next century, our com munity colleges will have to work co-operatively with government and the private sector, labour and other training institutions to ensure that our human resources are developed to their fullest potential.

2673 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 1991 Our colleges must work in partnership with the commu ni ty to en sure tha t they deliver the educational programs which Manitobans need in the mobile, competitive, global marketplace that we now live. Mr. Acting Speaker, this bill provides for the incorporation of our communi ty colleges, each with a board of governors representing the commu nity which it serves. Each board will have between 10 and 12 mem bers including student and employee representatives, and all will be operating at arm's length from government.

As the governing authority of the college, the board will have control over the college's financial affairs and its human resources. The boards will have the responsibili ty of the students as well. They will have the responsibility of inc luding the power of establishmen t of admissions requiremen ts and the responsibility to grant certificates and diplomas. The boards will be able to enter into contracts and agreements and, with the approval of the minister and Lie utenant-Governor-i n-Council, establish short-term and lon g-term financial programs, including the ability to borrow funds.

The boards will also be responsible to the com munity, the students, the staff and to government. Annual budgets will be submitted to the minister for approval or amend me nt. Annual reports reflecting the colleges' academic performance will also be publis hed for the information of all Manitobans. The act also addresses the need for regular reviews and audits of the colleges financial and academic programs. As well, the colleges will report, through the minister, to memb ers of this Legislature.

While the boards will ensure that colleges meet the needs of their communi ties, the Minister of Edu cation and Tr aining will ensur e that our post-secondary edu cation system grows and develops in an orderly fashion. The minister will be responsible for approving or amending annual budgets, determining geographic and program ma ndates of the college, establishing post-secondary education policies and ensuring that reviews of the colleges' ope rations are undertaken. Mr.

Acting Speaker, we are all well aware of the value of the 1, 200 college instructors and support staff who will become employees of the incorporated colleges. The act makes special provision to ensure that their valuable insights and concerns are made available to the directors of the college. College councils, with significant employee as well as student representation, will provide advice to the boards. This, Mr. Acting Speaker, we believe is important in terms of ensuring that there is a voice by those who work and those who receive the services of the colleges. Mr.

Acting Spea ker, by stre ngthening our partnership with the students, em ployees, the private sector, the general communi ty and labour, we will be better able to deliver the programs, to develop the new skills and lifelong learning needs of Manitobans. In managing and conducting the colleges' affairs, the boards of directors will have the authority to be flexible, responsive and innovative in providing the program needs by students and labour market and the business and industry commu nity.

The colleges will make efficient and effective use of their resources as the market becomes more competitive for adult and post-secondary education and training services. Mr. Acting Speaker, I believe The Colleges Act which we have before us today provides an excellent balance of flexibility and accountability. The colleges will be accountable to the community and the clie nts they serve and they will be responsible to the government, which provides annual funds for their operation. In return, Mr.

Acti ng Speaker, the colleges will have the manda te and authority to meet those responsibilities and expectations and the flexibility to me et the needs of their students and the commu nity. Mr. Acting Speaker, this is something that has been overdue for sometime. Most of the provinces in this country have already moved to a college governance system within their jur isdictions. I think it is high time that we in Manitoba moved to make sure that students within this province were able to avail themselves of the opportunities of education that they really require to be productive citizens in our province. Mr.

Acting Speaker, this matter has been discussed thoro ughly with the com muni ties throughout this pro vince, with the no rthern communi ties, with the rural communities and indeed with our urban commu nities. We have already in

May 29, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2674 place a transition team made up of the various representatives, both from the communi ty colleges and from the community at large, business and labour, to ensure all of the issues that may be outstanding are going to be addressed before the colleges receive their full autonomy and their full separation from government. Mr. Ac ting Speaker, to close, I would simply like to say that I am proud to sponsor Bill 49, and I look forward to further examina tion of its details in committee. Thank you very much. *( 15 10 ) Mrs.

Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Acting Speaker, never in the history of this House have I heard such wonderful rhetoric about education when there is absolutely no substance to any words used by the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach). Mr. Acti ng Speaker, he talks about excellence. The individual who has just cut 87 staff memb ers at Red River Communi ty College speaks about excellence.

He speaks about equity when he has cut programs at Keewatin Commu nity College and Assiniboine Communi ty College, which is going to force our young people to leave their northern and rural communities and move to Winnipeg, because they cannot access that program in their local commun ity. An Honourable Member: That is not equity. Mrs. Carstalrs: That is not equity, Mr. Acting Speaker. He talks about openness.

Well, it is very interesting to see a definition of openness from this minister because, in fact, it is the minister who will be responsible for appointing every single member of the trustees of each one of these governing bodies. Of that 12 that he is going to appoint, of course, only one is going to be a student and only one is going to be an employee. So the participation of those most affected by the decisions made by the boards of these colleges will be virtually unheard, because there is no openness when you are one of 12 , because there is not the opportunity to have your voice heard.

He used the word "choice" in his opening rema rks today about a bill which does not, indeed, result in additional choice being made available to those who would choose to attend these universities because it is this same minister who, through college cuts, has limited the choice available to students who would apply to go on to post- secondary education in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Acti ng Speaker, the Liberal Party will not be su pporting The Colleges and Consequen tial Ame ndments Act , and we will not be supporting this act for a number of reaso ns.

First and fore most, there has been little thought, I believe, given to the effect that this will have on a lack of co-ord ination in programming throughout our commu nity colleges. I believe that there needs to be more of a hands-on relationship in terms of the local communi ty and more arm's length from the government of the province of Manitoba but, when you establish

an act in which the budgets are all approved and changed by the Minister of Education, then one must question the arm's length relationship which is supposed to be established here. Secondly, Mr. Acting Speaker, I believe that the concept of having an independent board for each one of the communi ty colleges will not, in the long term, lead to the kind of orderly growth that the min ister addresses in hi s own re mar ks this afternoon.

One of the difficulties that we have seen with our universities is that because they are autonomous, because they have their own boards, there is often a great deal of competition as each one wants to have that particular program located at their institution. The Univer sity of Winnipeg wants to offer the progr am. The University of Manitoba wants to offer the program. The university of Brandon wants to offer the program. The College Saint-Boniface would like to offer the program.

The result is that, instead of working through a situation in which, with limited dollars, we can make the best program available in one or two, at the very most, institutions; we have them all competing forthe prize money. I believe that is also what is going to happen with the choice that the minister has made which is to establish an independent board of governors for each community college. I believe it would have been better to have established a province-wide board which would make decisions in light of the following criteria. Where is the best location to put this program?

What is the mo st appro pria te location in terms of the skill being taught? It would appear to me that if we are looking at broadening our mining programs, for example, that one would examine very carefully the location of that training program in the North where the majority of mining activity takes place. When we are looking

2675 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 1991 for an agricultural component in a com munity college, one would look to Assiniboine Commun ity College in Brandon which already has an expertise and where there would be a student body ready, willing and mo re than able to access that particular progr amming. If, however, we have three different boards of governors, we are in serious danger of making that turf warfare far too dominant in future decisions made about the commu nity college educational system in the province of Manitoba.

The communi ty colleges in Manitoba have done an excellent job of educating young people in the province of Manitoba. They are, however, very small in relationship to other provinces. Manitoba, traditionally, educates as many students per capita at our university level as most other provinces in the nation. That is not true, however, for the number of students we educate within our communi ty colleges. We have for a long time produced inadequate numb er s of stude nts and gradua tes at the communi ty college level.

The com muni ty college system has been hampered in its growth by a variety of governme nts of the day, but no government has limited its growth to the degree that they were limited in this fiscal year. The commu nity colleges in the province of Manitoba were, in fact, struck a very heavy blow. While we saw our universities receive increases on an average of 3.3. percent, every single one of our commu nity colleges received substantial cuts in their overall funding, 7 percent, 5 percent from last year's budget to this year's budget. That will, indeed, mean, Mr.

Acting Speaker, that fewer students will be trained in 1 991 -92 than were trained this year in the academic year 19 90-1991 . It is somewhat depressing to me that the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) would try and go on the offensive with respect to governance while, at the same time, he was gutting the commu nity college system, and that he would also go about it in the manner to which he has in The Colleges and Consequential Amendmen ts Act. Not only are we concerned that there will be three boards, when we believe there should be one board. We are also concerned about the composition of those boards.

There will be 12 board mem bers, all appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor, which means in essence by the Minister of Education. There will be only one student, but that student will not be elected by the student body; and there will be one employee, but it would appear that individual is also not going to be appointed by the employee association. Neither one of those two, for some reason known only to the Minister of Education, can serve as the chairperson or the vice-chairperson of the board of governors.

They have been excluded, which, I think, works to their disadvantage and makes them somehow, or rather not quite equal in their memb ership of this board. In addition, the presidents of the colleges will not be memb ers of the board unless it is so determined by the Minister of Education. This is a very strange situation. I do not know of an academic institution that has a board of governors that does not make the president of that academic institution an automatic member of the board of governors.

In addition, the board may formu late a budget; the board, much to my surprise, can even go in debt; but the board must submit its budget to the Minister of Education for approval or amendment, which, of course, does not lead to genuine autonomy. * (1 520) In addition, the presidents of these institutions cannot be appointed by the board, which would at least give them some sense of their own autonomy, without, again, approval of the mi nister.

One questions how that will differ from the present situation in the Province of Manitoba in which the Minister of Education appoints the presidents of the communi ty colleges. So we have a bill which seems to have some substance but which, when one reads it in some detail, seems to include the direct participation of the Minister of Education on any decision of real importance in terms of the governance of these particular colleges. Mr.

Speaker, in addition to some of the rhetoric which I have already put on the record with respect to the minister's comments a few minutes ago, he also made the comment which perhaps I found the most outstanding of all. He made the comment and I will quote as much as I can because I was copying down the notes. He says he wants to make sure that the communi ty college system grows in an orderly fashion. Well, I would like to challenge the Minister of Education as to how he thinks commun ity colleges can grow in an orderly fashion when he has decided unilaterally that they will not grow in any fashion whatsoever.

In fact, they will decrease in the academic year 19 91 -1 992.

May 29, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2676 He also indicated, of course, that he wanted to put on the record the value that he placed on the 1 ,200 instructors at the communi ty college level. One wonders how much value the 98 who received lay-off notices at Red River Commu nity College felt the minister had placed on them. Presumably they were not considered of much value to the Minister of Education, since they were summarily dismis sed by that same Minister of Education. He talks also about the partnership which he wants to develop between labour and business and government and the communi ty colleges.

Well, that is very interesting, Mr. Acting Speaker, because we could not find those partnerships in the Estimates process. In fact, about the only partnership we could discover in the Estimates process was closing the programs in commu nity colleges to force student s to take those programs in private vocational colleges in the province of Manitoba. When I specifically asked what the costs to the student would be of their being forced to take programs outside of the commu nity colleges, the answer I got from the Minister of Education was he did not know.

It would be logical therefore to assume that he did not particularly care as long as they were no longer his responsibility and he could force those young people to find their educational opportunities elsewhere. It is interesting that they are so interested in the private training opportunities available in the province of Manito ba, because there is one significant difference between private training and public training through our communi ty colleges. That is that there is always an auditing function that goes on of the programs offered.

That auditing function not only has been going on by the Department of Education and now will continue through this legislation, but the auditing function will be prescribed in law in this very act that the minister introduces. There is no auditing function about the quality of program ming available in the vocational training programs. There is no auditing program of Success Busines s College. Nobody goes in from the Department of Education and says, what kind of equipment do you use, what kind of training program are you presenting? There is no auditing at all.

That is one of the strengths of the commu nity college system . The minister said in the Estimates process that programs had to be constantly evaluated, programs have to be constantly rewritten so you are always offering programs which are up to date. Well, no one disagrees with that statement. In fact, that is exactly what should be going on in every single comm unity college in the province of Manitoba. They should constantly be re-evaluati ng.

They should be constantly challenging whether this program is valuable or that program is not valuable, whether this one is attracting students, whether that one is not attracting students. If it is necessary for us to do that at the commu nity college level, then we should be doing it in all educational institutions in the province of Manitoba. Unfortunately, we do not do that in private vocational colleges, but the Minister of Education is forcing more and more of our students to look towards those programs. Indeed, one of his very criteria for cutting programs was: Was that program availa ble elsewhere?

When he made his announcements in the Estimates process and told us exactly what programs were available, it was amazing how often a pr ivate vocational college came up as the alternative choice now open to the young people of the province of Manitoba. Mr. Ac ting Speaker, if students wish to attend a private vocational college , then the attitude unfortunately has been, let the buyer beware, but a student who completes their high school education and enters into our communi ty colleges should be given some guar antee of excellence in their program ming , and there are only two ways to guarantee that excellence.

You guarantee that excellence by ensuring that the instructor who is teaching that program has the qualifications necessary, and you guarantee that excellence by ensuring that there are adequate dollars so that the materials that are used in that curriculum are such that the child can, in fact, achieve the results that he or she needs to achieve.

What we have seen under this government has been a total lack of comm itm en t to our post-secondary education students who wish to attend communi ty colleges, and it is therefore sad and somewhat depressing that the only thing that the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Derkach) can do for the commu nity colleges in the province of Manitoba is to submit a bill called The Colleges and Consequential Amendmen ts Act, surrounded with rhetoric when, in fact, everything that he is

2677 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 1991 doing in the province with regard to our commu nity colleges is weakening the system, is making less equity, is creating fewer choices, is making the programs less relevant to the needs of the 21 st Century; and his rhetoric will not respond, tragically, to the needs of the young people in the province of Manitoba. I would like to conclude, Mr. Acting Speaker, with a reminder to each of the MLAs in this room that Manitoba does not have an enviable record with regard to post-secondary education.

National studies show that Manitoba sends, per capita, the fewest number of students on to post-secondary educational institutions. The province of Nova Scotia is able to send 21 percent of its students on to post-secondary education. The province of Manitoba sends only 14 . 7 percent of our students on a per capita basis to post-secondary education institutions. • (1 530) The tragedy of that is we are not going to be ready for the 21 st Century, and the decisions made by the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) with respect to the communi ty college system will not enhance those opportunities.

They have detracted from those opportunities, and nothing in this bill will make those opportunities more available. Indeed, they may, as was described to me by some teachers attending the communi ty colleges conference this week in the province of Manitoba from across Canada-indicated to me that in Nova Scotia, they are very concerned about the number of governing bodies that they have in their commu nity colleges and the lack of clear direction, the lack of a uniform body establishing goals and objectives necessary for them to meet the 21 st Century.

When they are already doing a far better job than we are, I cannot understand why we are taking a step that has been judged by many to be a regressive concept of the governance of commu nity colleges. Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. Mr. Dave Chomlak (Kl ldo nan): Mr . Acting Speaker, I rise to discuss Bill 49, The Colleges and Consequential Amendmen ts Act.

I am sorry to say by way of prologu e, my initial statement, that any initiative of this government in terms of education I simply do not trust in the first instance because I do not have any faith in this admin istration and its capacity to deliver either legislation or structure or process that will improve education in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Acting Speaker, I am sorry to have to say that, but I am afraid it is a reality. Actions of this government that we have seen since it has been elected in the majority situation have demonstrated that it is not education that is a priority.

It is, in fact, their overriding obsession, their only obsession, with the debt and the management of the deficit that dictates every single decision and every single move that has been taken in any area, despite the rhetoric to the contrary that somehow education is a priority of this government and this administration. This government has moved more to privatization in the area of education than any other area or any other field of activity in this administration. This is another example of privatization through the back door by this government, Mr. Acting Speaker.

They have done it in every other component of education, be it their assistance to private schools, be it their private enterprise training, be it their collaboration with the federal government to totally privatize workplace job training. This is another example of it. There is no justification, no need cited in any reports that we have seen that would dictate that this necessarily has to be done, this course of action has to be followed. It has been recommended by their business com munity friends and their business commu ni ty frie nds alone. That is the only justification given.

We hear rhetoric to the contrary that some how it is going to create greater partnerships or improve education. There are no substantive findings that indicate that. There are no studies that have been tabled. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) In fact, Mr. Speaker, I have asked on several occasions for the minister to table the advisory comm ittee report. He has refused to. I sent him letters and asked him to table it, and he has refused to. I asked him in the last Estimates process and he refused to. I asked him in Estimates this time and he refused to. Why, Mr. Speaker?

Clearly, or it must be taken by lack of action in this area, that they are afraid to because the justification for what they are doing in this bill, Bill 49, will not stand up to serious debate. A rather phi losophical concern with this general bill , Mr. Spea ker, is that all aspects and all comp onents of government trai ning and government education are now under the general

May 29, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA 2678 philosophy of market driven. Market driven runs every single activity entered in to by this government, be it its private training, be it its Workforce 2000, be it commu nity colleges, be it its initiatives at the university level. There is no denying, Mr. Speaker, that there has to be mo re market-driven training. There is no question that studies and demogr aphics dictate that, but when every component of your education system is totally geared towards market-driven activities, then you have serious, serious problems. That is what we see in this government.

That is what we see in this bill. That is what we see in every single aspect of education and education training and education philosophy of this government. We have seen it at the university level. We have even seen it atthe minister's talk atthe public school level; there has to be more market-dri ven activities. Now we see it, totally, in this particular bill and this particular act. I want to reiterate that we are not saying that there is not a place for mar ket-driven training and market-driv en activities.

There is no question, but when the federal government is totally dominated by that concept, and you have a provincial government totally dominated by that concept, then the whole philosophy of education and flexibility, in fact, gets lost. In fact, this minister argues that the act will provide more flexibility. I dare say it will be less flexibility by virtue of their total obsession with market-driven training. The danger of that, in our opinion, is that when all of your education system and your education mode moves towards market-driven training, we know what happens in the marketplace.

Ten years or 15 years down the road we will have, who knows, let me pull a hypothetical figure out of the air, we will have 10 0,000 widget makers trained in Manitoba when there is no longer a need for widget makers. That is what happens in the marketplace and that is what happens when it is totally market driven. The marketplace says yes, some of you die by the wayside.

When all of your activities are market driven, when they are all geared towards that marketplace, when it is all, I dare suggest, short term economic, the results, not only to the edu cation system but the results to the employees or the workers or the citizens of this country, can be devastating. That is what will happen when this government proceeds on its obsession towards market-driven training. Where is the edu cation philosophy in this particular bill?

I have had occasion to peruse and to draft legislation that deals with corporate models and this bill reads just like the corporate model of any co rpor ate en tity. Yes , I agree it has become -they have set up a body corporate, nothing in this bill about education-purposes goals. That is because the government's total mind set in this bill and in its general education philosophy is towards the corporate private sector approach. Let us just call it what it is. It is a privatization, Mr. Speaker, of the communi ty college system. That is what it is.

That is what this bill is and this bill is a corporate structure. I have reviewed it in that regard and it reads like a statute that has been drafted for any corporate entity that this government is involved with. In fact, I dare say if you were to look through this bill, it reads like many of the statutes that I have had occasion to review. I know it does, in fact, because I have reviewed many of those statutes. The government says that this someho w will save costs and be more flexible. One of our major, major concerns is it will do neither.

Our other major concern is the way the board struc tur e ha s been set up. The Lieutenant-Governor by Order -in-Council will appoint all board members. Yes, there will be a represe ntative from the student body and yes, there will be a repr esentative from the emp loyees, whatever form or organization those employees may take. I dare say, given the experience of this government with other boards and agencies, we can well predict who will com pletely domi nate mem bership of these boards.

It will be the same groups, the same individuals who dominate the other boards appointed by this government, which will be the same narrow-m inded, single-min ded approach of this government to training and to education. I am very concerned with the criteria that have been put forwar d for the se lec tion and the represe ntation by board members, Mr. Speaker.

There is no criterion that really mandates board mem bers to be represe ntative of the commu nity, and that is a major concern, because I am convinced--and I have to back that up with my ex perie nce on othe r boards, what we saw happening at the Universities Grants Commission, the recent app ointment of the student

2679 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 29, 1991 re prese ntative to the Univer sities Gr ants Commission, and what we have seen on other boards in other areas. I am very concerned. * (1 540) Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: I hes itate to interrupt the honourable mem ber, but I am sure the honourable member would like to join with me and the other mem bers of the Asse mbly in recognizing the presence here this afternoon of Mr. Bob Simpson, the MLA for York North, from the New Brunswick Legislative Assembly. On behalf of all honourable memb ers, I welcome you here this afternoon, sir. *** Mr.

Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable member for Kildonan. Mr. Chomlak: Mr. Speaker, so given my experience of observing this government in this House, I have no confidence whatsoever that the board will not be anything but a reflection of, not only the philosophy, but one would dare say, the political memb ership of memb ers opposite. That will seriously jeopardize the direction of the boards for these various bodies. The act reads, Mr. Speaker, in a ver y schizophrenic manner.

While the minister indicates that somehow these boards will be autonomous or not autonomous, the minister does retain a fair amount of power and a fair amount of direction. I guess it leads me- when I read the act, I am not quite certain what their intentions are other than knowing what the philosophical basis is for this particular act. When I read this act, I wonder why they could not achieve what they are attempting to achieve through some form, albeit a changed one, of the existing structu re-the structure that has served the students of Manitoba well, Mr. Speaker.

They could, thr ough admin istrative me ans, have achieved the same ends. That is the interesting point, because most of the reasons cited for this act are genuinely administrative by the minister, in terms of any documentation that I have seen. They could have achieved the same ends through some kind of administrative change, from allowing the presidents of the universities to manage as presidents manage. It did not have to go to the extent that they have of imposing a new structure, a new private structure, on the existing system. They could have achieved the same ends, but they chose not to do so.

They chose to go the way, they will cite, of most other jur isdictions in the country. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that the experiences of most other jurisdictions in the country have not necessarily always been positive with respect to this model of operation. In fact, I am advised that even at a recent Tory convention in Alberta, there was a great demand for a change to the patronage appointments of boards on the Alberta commu nity colleges because of the way they were functioning.

The experience from Saskatchewan of the way labour relations have been handled and the way that people have been dealt with, real human beings, under their board governance system, would indicate that this government and this minister should take a step back and perhaps re-examine what they are doing and why they are doing it. You know, Mr . Speaker, there is nothing wrong with a made-in-Ma nitoba solution.

There is nothing wrong with a variation of the system we presently have in place, albeit allowing more flexibil ity for the various presidents of the commu nity colleges to function and to do what presidents and managers are to do, and that is basically to manage within an adminis trative mode. That is an administrative decision, and they can do that.

There is nothing in this bill that effectively is going to educate the students of Manitoba any greater or that is going to really, by virtue of the way I read it, provide any more flexibility than could be achieved throu gh another fo rm , an approved form of adminis tration and relationship between the Depa rtm ent of Education and the various commu nity colleges. There are a number of reasons, Mr. Speaker, why I do not trust the initiatives of the government in this particular bill or, as I indicated earlier, in any education initiative that they undertook.

I would like to illustrate why that is the case, because it is not purely a philosophical, in fact it is not a philosophical or a political decision on my part. It is the way that this process has been brought about. It is the way this bill has been introduced. It is the whole process that was followed. I cited earlier the fact that the min ister has refused to table the report that indicated why college governance was being established.

May 29, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2680 That raises a question in my mind and, if that was not enough, the initiatives of this governmen t in having programs cut and having people fired prior to the introduction of a system that somehow is supposed to provide economy, that is going to allow this system to do that and make its own decision, leads me to suspect the government's motives in this particular legislation.

If in fact the government was truly desiring to do what the minister has indicated they are doing, they would have left those decisions ultimately to the new board they are setting up, but they did not. They made these decisions prior to the tabling of this legislation, prior to the establishment of these boards. That causes me to be suspicious, highly suspicious of the government's motives, which is why I indicated initially in my comm ents that I do not trust this initiative at all. Mr.

Speaker, last Estimates process, the ones most recently concluded, and the ones prior to that, I raised with the minister two fundamental issues respecting the employees of the institutions, their pension rights and their status in terms of their collective agreement and their bargaining unit. The mini ster had no answers for me last Estimates, nor did he have answers in his most recent Estimates, nor are there any answers in this bill.

We are talking about thousands of people, we are talking about their lives, we are talking about their livelihood, we are talking about their future-no answers, no answers from this government, no answers from this minister. That is not the way to deal with people; that is not the way to treat people.

If you wish to demonstrate good will, if your intentions truly are in the best interests of all those concerned, then your actions should so demonstrate, but that is not the case-no word about what is going to happen to the pension rights, no word about what is going to happen to their collective bargaining rights and, on top of all that, we have seen literally hundreds of people let go, literally hundreds of students losing the right to take programs at these community colleges.

So I think that we on this side of the House have very good cause for being suspicious of the governmen t's actions and intentions in dealing with this particular bill, Bill 49. Mr. Speaker, fundamentally in education, where we are in this province, be it in the public education system, the university system, the college system or any other form of training, the fundamental issue, of course, is funding. We are aware, and we have made reference on numerous occasions, that the province is in a very serious fiscal financial position. There is no question about that.

This government campaigned on an issue of education, a No. 1 priority. I have heard it virtually every day in this House since we have been elected, and yet what they did to the community college system in the last budget clearly demonstrated that they-is a clear demonstration to me-have other intentions with respect to the commu nity college system that do not reflect the minister's commen ts when he introduced this bill for second reading.

I truly believe their intention is to privatize as much of the system as they can, be it private training or the commun ity college system, and to take as much out of the public sector, in terms of education, as is possible . You do that by starving the system financially, by putting in place this private structure and by cutting and slashing of the infrastructure and of the system. You know, Mr. Speake r, they talk about efficiencies in the private sector and they talk about how this will be more flexible.

I just want to relate a specific instance and a specific program at Red River Commu nity College that really shows what this government's true intentions are in terms of education. It is the ESL program . They talk about operating more efficiently, they talk about catering to the demands of the public and meeting those needs, and yet what they have done with the ESL is totally contrary. There is a waiting list of 200 students to get into ESL, Red River. What did this government do?

It cut half of the programs, it laid off half of the teachers and that somehow was more efficient and where are the alternatives? • (1 550) They say, well, the alternative is in Winnipeg School Division No. 1 in terms of their ESL, a program that was able to be saved only by the fact that the public lobbied and finally convinced the government that the program should continue, but having said that, they say, well, the alternative is to go to ESL, to Winnipeg School Division No. 1 where, in fact, there is a line-up as well. Mr.

Speaker, their actions demonstrate some other kind of motive, an ulterior motive, but certainly not a motive that is designed to better educate the people of Manitoba. ESL, to me, typifies, in very

2681 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA May 29, 1991 graphic form , this governmen t's attitude toward education. Fundamentally, what I believe they are trying to do is funnel ESL into private sector training and get it right out of the public sector, like they are trying to do almost all other aspects of education. I think that is what is happening with ESL, because ESL private training institutions are going to be springing up and are springing up in the city.

That is what is going to continue, and they are giving money to private companies to do ESL training on the job where people already have jobs, as opposed to those who do not have jobs and who are waiting and trying to get into programs like Red River. That is the tragedy of what they have done and that is the real human effect of their initiatives. Another reason that I do not trust the initiatives in this particular bill is there was no real consultation with the comm unities and with people prior to the introduction of this bill.

When the Yukon introduced a governance or college model, as I understand it, they carrie d out systematic and com plete consu ltations-but not this government. They undertook a study, a private study, that they still will not table and reveal in this Legislature, and then they have introduced legislation. It kind of reminds me of what is happening in education finance in the public school sector and other areas, but I will diverge if I get into that. So we really do not know what the public wants. We do know there is a problem. We do know there is a need for change.

We do know that this government has introduced a bill, based on their study, that has been called for by, as far as I can see, their friends in the business community. I am not discounting the advice of their friends in the business commu nity. What I am discounting is the fact that seems to be the only people who they are listening to with respect to this kind of legislation. I have indicated earlier that the problem is that this government seems to be gearing towards total market-dri ven philosophy in all areas of education.

They have done it at the high school model; they have done it at the university level; and now they are doing it completely and totally at the community college level. The result will be a one-sided approach to education and an approach that does not include any valid approach to education or any education philosophy. What is the philosophy behind education? Why should we be training people? What should we be training people to do? Are any of these questions answered in this bill? No. All we hear is market-driven courses. All we hear is governance that somehow will be more flexible.

They keep demanding it is more flexible. They keep saying it is more flexible, but I do not see any indication in this bill that it will be flexible at all. Where is the edu cation man da te in here? Whe re is the education philosophy in here? It is nonexistent. Mr. Speaker, there is an incredible series of outstanding questions with respect to this bill as it relates to education, as it relates to commu nity college gove rnance . How will this attract, for example, more high school students to go into the commu nity college system? Are there any answers for that?

This purportedly is one of the major deficiencies in our system. We have to attract more high school students into the system. Fair enough. How does this particular model do that? It does not. Why and how can the system be mo re responsive? Why would this be any mo re responsive than a sys te m that is better administrated than one we have now? How is this more responsive? Why is it more flexible to have an additional body, an additional board, an additional decision-making body between the minister, the department, the college and the students? How does that contribute to more flexibility and a better system?

Why is there so much discussion surrounding this particular bill and the needs of business and not a discussion about the needs of the most important people involved in this decision , the students? Where are the students? Where is the involvement of the students, or where is the involvement of labour? Where is the involvement of the present education commu nity that are involved in this, Mr. Speaker? They are not existent. Mr. Speaker, will full-time staf

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-2-53
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 2nd hansardpdf 53.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f669f97fb1d4fae48b139dd03741d6388376ccdc

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