Volum e 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT VVEDI\IESDAY, MARCH 27, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 34

March 27, 1974 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr, Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 884 The Hon. ?Unister of Tourism • . PlC - 1 HON. T. M. DOYLE (MINISTER OF TOURISM): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of personal privilege, I suppose. I want to correct a complete inaccuracy that appears on page three of this morning's "Daily News•· as part of an overall report of the debate in this House yesterday afternoon in connection ~ith the Supplementary Supply Bill for my Department of Tourism. One sentence in particular that is all I am referring to.

The sentence starting; "Replying to White Bay North MHA William Rowe, Mr. Doyle said the total monies being paid to George McClean," I am not worried about the misspelling of the name,"Ltd., is $112,000 through Horisons Co111111unications." I would like to point out that {

a) I did not say that; {

b) it is not correct and (

c) I vill repeat what I repeated about six times yesterday: That to the best of my knowledge there is no connection whatsoever between Mr. McLean or Horizon. I think perhaps the reporter was confused with three or four various subheads. The only figure that quotes $112,000 is a different one entirely,which is the one doing with the calendars. I just want to clear the matter,that the sentence which says; ''Being paid to George McLean is $112,000 through H~rizons Communications. 11 I feel it should be corrected because it is not a correct statement, MR. SPEAKER : The Hon. the Minister of ~..ines and Energy. HON. L.

D. BARRY (MINISTER OF MINES AND ENERGY): Mr. Speaker, I have a brief statement that I would like to make with respect to a matter raised in the "Evening Telegram" of yesterday's date, Tuesday, March 26. I have a copy of the paper to table, Mr. Speaker. This is an

article headed "Contract termed a political decision, 'by Bob Wakelin, Telegram Staff Writer." This is another example of some great investigating reporting, Mr. Speaker, We have some alle~ations made here•, At no time was the 2694

March 27, 1974 Tape 884 PK - 2 question put to me as Minister of Mines and Energy, the minister responsible for the Power Commission with respect to this matter, The matter involves the awarding of the contract to act as insurance brokers for the Power Commission. Lo and behold! We find that govern~ent are being criticized and there allegations of political patronage made because the contract was awarded to one of the companies making the lowest tender. Speaker. Now that is a switch, Mr.

To give the House information with respect to' the award of this contract.tenders were called, requests for proposals were called. The contract was finally awarded to Munn's Insurance Limited Company who quoted an amount significantly less than the company presently holding the contract. There was another tender, Mr, Speaker, for the same amount, There were two low tenders.in other words, identically quotes based on a percentage of the net premium. Then, Mr.

Speaker, it came down to government having to make a decision as to whether it would go for the low tender route, accept the low tender or whether it would base the award of the contract on other considerations. There are, Mr. Speaker, certain arguments that can be raised against the awarding of low tenders in all situations. The newspaper

article refers to an allegation that the Power Commission was recommending that the contract remain with the company presently holding it, Crosbie and Company Limited. Mr. Speaker, there is no question that the services performed by Crosbie and Company have been wholly and ccmpletely satisfactory and as a matter of fact they have provided excellent service during the time they have been the insurance brokers for the commission. Mr.

Speaker, government's decision had to be whether we strive for this for the upholding of its standards that our government have been adamantly pushing for ever since coming into office, namely; whether we utUst get away from these discretionary awards and make awards based on the lowest tender or whether we should go along with what could possibly be the easiest and safest and .most comfortable route of 2695

March 27, 1974 Tape 884 PK - 3 giving it to the company t'hat had the contract at the time. ~cause there :ta no question, Hr. Speakei- 1 the working relation­ ship betwee:n Crosbie and Company and the Power Commisaion have been good. There is no question, Mr. Speaker, that there are feelings on 1' the part of individuals in the commission that they would have liked to continued that relationship. But, Mr. Speaker, it was a decision for government as to whetl:er or not we award the conttac -t to the lowest tender. this was ~one, Mr. Speaker. 2696 ,.

March 27, 1974, Tape 885, Page 1 -- apb with respect to the competence of the company to which the award was made, this is a Newfoundland company employing Newfoundlanders and it has access and has an arrangement with and this was one of the conditions prior to the award of the tender to ensure that the expertise was available because it is a pretty complex complicated area, Mr. Speaker, we are into.

There is enginee ·ring expertise and so on necessary but Munn's Insurance has an arrangement with ~.arsh McLellan of Toronto an arrangement I should add that will cost government or the commission not one red cent more. ~ That company is one of the largest . insurance companies in Canada. It has the necessary engineering expertise. The company is the insurers.as a matter of fact, for Churchill Falls Corporation, the company has been used by the power commission in the past, in the first years of placement of insurance. Hr.

Speaker, there is no question, in our opinion, that the expertise will be provided by Munn's Insurance and there is no reason that we could see why this lowest tender should nQt have been accepted and why the work should not have been spread around and made available to any company that wanted to bid and could come in in the low tender. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bonavista South: MR. J. MORGAN: Hr. Speaker, I beg leave of this House to present a petition from the District of Trinity South.

The reason I am presenting the petition is that the honourable member for the district has been unable to be in his seat .for the past two or three sittings because of illness. The petition is from 241 residents of the Community of Chance Cove in Trinity South and the prayer of the petition is that the road leading from the Trans Canada Highway, at the Bellvue Beach intersection through the community of Chance Cove.be upgraded and paved.

They •tress the importance in their prayer that the fact that school buses are using this road extensively and commercial vehicles such as large truck that are hauling fish from the Community of Chance Cove. 2697

. r ~· March 27, 1974, Tape 885, Page 2 -- apb Mr. Speaker, I support this petition and I hope that if the total funds this year,1974, the fiscal year, will not be available for the upgrading and paving, at least the upgrading be commenced this year. Hopefully, funds will be forthcoming for the completion of the paving as well. I move, Mr. Speaker, that the petition be tabled in this Assembly and passed along to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bonavista North: MR. PAUL. S.THOMS: Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues on tlµs side of the House,I rise in support of the petition presented by the Member for Bonavista South. I realize his concern for the residents of the area, I realize the concern of the residents for the need of upgrading and paving for the road, especially through the community, because, Mr. Speaker, during the .summer months in most of our outlying co11DDUnities where there ·is no pavement it is almost impossible to live properly without swallowing a certain amount of dust each year. Also, Mr.

Speaker, our outport people believe in placing their clothes on clotheslines outdoors and this dust through their communities hampers this operation. Mr. Speaker, I trust that wiChin the estimates of the Department of Transportation and Communi.cations, this year, that the minister will see fit to place enough money under the necessary headings so that this project can be undertaken during this coming season. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Mem.ber for St. Barbe North: MR. F.B.ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the honourable the ~.ember for Bell Island I would like to ask the Minister of ~fanpower if any step  have been taken by his department to protect the employment, the seniority, the pension rights and other fringe benefits of the twenty-eight or so employees who will be affected by the transfer of the federal employees 2698

.,,,. March 27, 1974 Tape No. 886 NM - 1 in the Department of Public Works fire station at Pleasantville to the provincial Department of Justice? MR. ROUSSEAU: I have to take that question as notice. I am sorry I am not familiar with it at all. I will take it as notice and try nnd pet an answer for the honourable member. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, supplementary, I realize that the transfer of the assets probably comes under the Minister of Justice, however it is a civil rights matter and I was wondering if the minister would endeavour to contact the Deputy Minister of Justice to find out just what exactly is going on here because it is a very serious matter. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for St. Barbe North. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the honourable Minister of Education.

Bas the Minister of Education received or made any representation to the Avalon Consolidated School Board in connection with the impending strike of plant employees because of the fact that the school board has rejected a union demand of $1.10 per hour? That is the increase. ~- SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Education. HON. G. OTTENHEIMER, Minister of Education: Mr. Speaker, I have received no communication from the Avalon Consolidated School Board with respect to this matter between themselves and their employees. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, is there any truth to the statement as I· have heard that the Operating Engineers Union is being forced to fight the school board's battle for more operating money for the school boards? MR. OTTENHEI~: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of the rumour and I could not COl"llll~nt on it at all. The two parties to the a,reement presumably discuss and negotiate as do parties to collective agreements, employers and employees throughout the province. They have not attempted to involve me in it. Of course the Department of Education is not the department under which labour disputes are referred. I have received 2699

March 27, 1974 Tape No. 886 NM - 2 absolutely no co1111Wunication from the school board or from the union. MR. F, ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. In view of the petition that was presented by the member for Carbonear yesterday calling for the incorporation of Salmon Cove, can the minister give some indication of the speed or degree to which such applications are being processed and approved at the present time? HON. H. R. V. EARLE, Minister of Munici~al Affairs and Housing: Mr.

Speaker, I think this House will be aware we have many applications coming in at all times. They are going through the divisions of my department as quickly as possible. MR. F. ROWE: Supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, I kind of asked this question earlier in the session but what I am trying to get at is there a freeze or a certain amount of hesitation on the part of the minister's department to process such applications for incorporation and is there any definite difference between the speed with which applications for incorporation of local improvement district are dealt with as compared with applications for municipal councils, the town councils ? MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, there is no hesitation on the part of my officials or my department generally.

There was for a-period as the honourable member probably is aware, some delay in processing applications because we were waiting on the 2eport of the Royal Commission on ~unicipal Government. But sjnce then several communities have been incorporated and the thing is proceeding as usual. There is no fteeze on it at the moment and this particular applica ·tion will receive prompt attention. AN HON, MEMBER: Inaudible. ~- EARLE: Yes, community councils, local improvement districts and town council•. 2700 ...

March 27, 1974 Tape No. 886 NM - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bonavista North. MR. P. TBO!iS: Mr. Speaker, 1 wonder could the Minister of Municipal Affairs try to get the information for me as to whether or not th~ Town of Burnside is getting incorporated? 1 think the requests have been in for over a year, to my knowledge it has not been yet; but is there any action bein~ taken? HR. EARI.:E: 1 will try to get the information, Mr. Speaker, for the honourable member. There is quite a backlog down there of applications and 1 do not know at the m0111ent the position of any ~articular one of them. 2701

March 27, 1974 Tape 887 IB-1 MF. SIM\.fONS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the . honourable the Minister of Transportation and Communication: I am wanting to know whether any initiative had been taken, ~r. Speaker, to provide either additional or replacement equipment to take care of necessary maintenance in the Morrisville, Milltown, St. Alban's area. I should point out as a background that the area.from the intersection at South East Brook in Milltown over to St.

Alban's.has been graded quite recently but the area from the intersection through Milltown into Morrisville has not been graded at all recently. The reason that I am hearing is that there is no equipment, ·t~at both graders normally attached to the Bay D'Espoir Depot are in Grand Falls awaiting servicing. I wonder would the minister indicate what steps his department are taking to provide either the equipment that should be there or some replacement equipment to take care of this rather necessary maintenance? MR. T. P. HICKEY (MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION A.~ COMMUNICATION) : Mr.

Speaker, I have been advised that a couple of pieces of equipment have been ~ssigne~ _t~ that area, a couple of additional pieces of equipment I should say. That is about all that I can say at this time except to point out to the honourable member that we have a proplem in the Grand Falls district, Grand Falls region, in so far as ~chanics are concerned and we are doing everything we can to find mechanics. It is just a problem which has been with us for some time and we just cannot seem to find a solution to it.

Because of this.the equipment is not _repaired as quickly as we would like to have it and of course this creates 1110re stress and strain on the existing equipment. It means that the equipment does not get out of the garage as quickly as we want it. However, this is the information I have, that there hss been an effort made to put additional pieces of equipment in and to grade the road as the honourable member indicates. MR. SI?-!f-'ONS: Mr. Speaker, a further question for the minister on another subject, · that of the Bay D'Espoir highway, I wired the minister just 2702

March 27, 1974 Tape 887 IB-2 over a week ago requesting this information. I do not have an answer at the moment. I noticed in the paper today that tenders have been called for two sections of the Bay D'Espoir Highway. In view of these points, Mr. Speaker, I wonder would the minister indicate to the House what plans - this is the question I asked eight days ago in a telegram - his department has for the upgrading of the Bay D'Espoir hi~hway in the present year, that is to say the coming summer,if you like? MR. HICKEY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I acknowledged the telegram from the honourable member and I must confess that I have been out of my office. I have a reply here right at the moment that I am going through before signing it. I am sorry that I have not been able to get the answer to him before this time. With regards to the Bay D'Espoir Hi~hwav the only thing I can tell him at the moment~ as I do not have details with me rig~t now, the only thing I can tell him is that the work as committed will be continued. I cannot give :~im details as to miles and how many miles and so on but I will be quite pleased to get it for him. MR.

SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question; Would the minister include what kind of information in his response.to my telegram? MR. HICKEY: It is not included as such, possibly in the kind of detail that the honourable member would like it. There is a reference to it. I am sure it answers some of his questions with regards to the Bay D' D"Espoir Highway .1 will have to go over it again and see if it answers"--­ his questions fully. Maybe it does. HON. E.

ROBERTS (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Before we proceed, a question - I am not sure this should go to the Finance Minister or the Government House Leader, about this BRINCO statement by the Premier. I gather he is back at work today. He is over his illness. It is a little like waiting for the other shoe to drop, being in an hotel ·room and hearing one shoe drop in the room above and then waiting for t~e other one to drop on the floor. Is there any indication whether that statement will be made today/ I think I know the answer but I would like to have it on the record for the House. 2703

March 27, 1974, Tape 888, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Minister of Finance: HON. J.C.CROSBIE (~linister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, there will be a statement made when the statement is ready to be made. Just when that will be remains to be seen. As soon as possible! HON. E.M.ROBERTS: Is it likely this afternoon? MR. CROSBIE: I cannot commit myself. MR. W.N.ROWE: They have him in the wringer by the sound of it, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, a question to the honourable Minister of Fisheries: In view of the fact that many months have now expired since the government made public that the LaScie fish plant was going to have another operator or maybe the same operator but under a different situation, in fact the Job contract, the three year contract expired several months ago, I believe, in view of that fact would the minister now be in a position to let the House know when. the LaScie fish plant will have an operator?

Sir, I do not mean to get into a debate or anything on it but the main reason that 1 I am asking the question is that I have been contacted by many fishermen who are now trying to fit out themselves for the fishery and have relied on credit from the plant in the past and· now find themselves in very difficult straits. I would like to have some information to convey to these fishermen, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries: BON, H.A.COLLINS (Minister of Fisheries): Mr. Speaker, we called for proposals for leasing or purchasing the LaScie plant,around the end of the year.

I do not know if it was in December or early January which would be the beginning of this year, of course. We received several proposals. I might say that a lot of them have been of the most unreal nature but ·r can appreciate the concern of the honourable member and the people of LaScie who are looking forward to prosecuting the fishery this year. I can say that we should be in a position within the next couple of weeks to announce who the ·operator of the plant will be this coming season. 2704

March 27, 1974, Tape 888, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Hermitage: MR. R.SI~IDNS: I have a question for the ~.inister of Transportation in the absence of the Premier .to whom I would prefer to direct this question and it would probably be IDQre appropriately directed to him. The reason will become obvious as I ask the question, I believe.

I would like to know whether the minister could indicate to the House either now or would he undertake to find out the information, whether the commitment made by the Pr~mier last fall to the people of Gaultois that a ferry service would be provided between Gaultois and Hermitage, whether that commitment is part of the plans for this year? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications: HON. T.V.HICKEY (Minister of Transportation and Communications): I will have to take the question unde~ advisement,obviously. HON. J.C.CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, I have a message from his Honour the Lieutenant Governor. MR. SPEAKER: "To the honourable Minister of Finance: I the Lieutenant Governor of the Province of Newfoundland transmit estimates and sums required for the public services of the province for the year ending the 31st. ·of March 1975, by way of Interim Supply. In accordance with the provisions of the British North America Act of 1867, as amended, I recommend these est~mates to the House of Assembly." Signed by the Lieutenant -Governor.

On motion that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions for the granting of Interim Supply to Her ~ajesty, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! RESOLUTION: That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the granting to Her ~ajesty for defraying certain expenses of the public service for the financial year ending the 31st. day of March one thousand nine hundred and seventy-five the initial sum of one hundred and three million four hundred and fifty thousand dollars ($103, 450,000). 2705

March 27, 1974. Tape 888, Page 3 -- apb _BEAD I, __ Dcpar~ment,Consolidated Fund Services, Amount $50,000 MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I assume that we will follow 2706

March 27, 1974 Tape 889 PK - 1 in the usual procedure in that we will go through these matters item by item in Committee of Supply and then once we are finished with , that the bill will go through the usual readings. Now, Mr. Chairman. this bill on Interim Supply is necessary in order to provide funds for the government for the months of April and May of this year. The government's financial year ends March 31.

Whether or not a budget had been brought down this week or last week we would still of course have to had Jnterim Supply because it usually takes three or four weeks for the estimates to be discussed and approved or sometimes even longer than that. So what we are asking for, Mr. Chairman,is $103,450,000 to ensure that we have sufficient monies to carry on the government for April and May. The detailed estimates for next year are at the printers.

The budget would have been brought down last week had there not been a supervening event, namely; this BRINCO matter which has occupied myself and several officials who would have worked on the budget for quite a time now. I am hoping and I will not know until this weekend when I can get a look at it all but I would certainly hope to have the budget down in the week that starts April 8, before we adjourn for the Easter weekend or whatever happens then. That is . what we will be aiming for. At that time the detailed estimates will be presented to the House. Mr.

Chairman,! think what is required is an explanation of why this money is needed for the two ~onth period. So if it.is all right, I might start with the consolidated funds services unless somebody opposite wants to make a general conunent. HON. E. M. ROBERTS (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Mr.

Chairman, I onlv want to make a general comment or two because I think the procedure outlined by the minister as he says, the prodecure which has been in effect for some time and I think will .meet the need because there will be ample opportunity, I have no doubt, to debate the main estimates at some length, the length they deserve and require. I think the only point that I would make really is that by my calculations the amount we are being requested to vote,about $10j,4SO,OOO, is substantially more than last year. That is not unexpected but I would 2701

March 27, 1974 Tape 889 PK - 2 ask ministers when they present their request to the committee and tru~ it is in a general way, Lf they could indicate to the committee, again in outline, in broad outline, there will be ample opportunity to debate the details and I assure the committee we intend to make sure the details are debated, to indicate in a broad way where the increased money is going. I assume part of it is for increased staff costs, reflects the salary increases which will beco- payable as of April 1, the salary increases which were negotiated over the past few months.

Some of it though may be for new programmes or new services and that is very fine and very much welcomed but I would be grateful if ministers could indicate whether there are in these estimates any funds for new services. Now there is an important point of principle there, Mr. Chairman. We are being asked to produce what amounts to be a blank cheque to Her ~fajesty's Government to give them blanket authority to spend $103 millions. - That is fine.

There is a need for it. ~though there is a need for it, the need could have been obviaied,the government did not have to wait until the 27th. day of March before bringing in this. When the Minister of Finance was on this side ;811d we were on that side,he used to make some eloquent statements about having the budget in and all of that. The last two or three years he has been very good himself. But be that as it may or for whatever the reasons are,we are faced with this situation.

We do not object to it as such and we have no intention of prolonging the debate unduly and no intention of going into it in great detail at this time but I think we are within our rights to ask the ministers either for an assurance that there are no new programmes being authorized in these amounts or if there are new programmes some indication of what they are. I think that is reasonable because, for example, if the Minister of Manpower is being given the right to spend up to $300,000 that is his request, 2708

March 27, 1974 Tape No. 890 NM - l if that is merely to go to carry on continuing progra1T1111es, presently existin~ programmes, programmes about which this House and committee are informed, that is obviously one thing, that is fair enough and maybe he only needs $286,000 but who is to worry? I mean in due course we will have time for that sort of detail. If on the other hand.included in that head of expenditure are eighty-seven new progra111111es, some of which ~ight involve the province in substantial expenditure,then I think we have a right as a committee to know about them,and the minister is nodding.

I think he and I are in agreement on it because you know it is a fundameDtal right the House shall pass on all heads of expenditure, all items of expenditure before they are embarked upon. So I think we would make that request of the ministers as they present their requests. I think it is reasonable and I think too that the ministers who approach it in that reasonable spirit will probably find a relatively easy and gentle passage at our hands. We are not in a conciliatory mood, our job is to be the opposition and we are,but we are in a peaceful mood today.

The stonn is outside but there will be a storm inside if ministers,as some have in the past, tend to get abrasive or sarcastic or attempt to withhold information,then we shall quite properly become concerned; the sort of performance we witnessed yesterday from the senior member from Harbour Main who gave a bit of a text book example of how not to get an easy passage of one's estimates. The only other point I would make, Mr.

Chairman, at this time, is that last year the Interim Supply Bill was about S86 million,rounded off to the nearest ~illion and the total expenditure was about $680 millions in the main estimates, adding - let us call it $700 million in rounded off, adding in the supplementary Aupply.

This year the amount of $103 Million is beinp, asked on interim supply,that would indicate a total exnenditure last year, SRS million to $700 million is rouihly one-eighth million, that would indicate in other words a total expenditure by the province this year of at least $800 million and of course that amount would have to be exclusive of any amount that may be spent 2709

March 27, 1974 Tape No, 890 NM.- 2 . to acquire the shares of BRINCO or whatever it is the -Rovernment eventually decide to ask the House to do and whatever it is the House 11\SY approve.

So that would indicate that the Minister of Finance's total enenditure would be at least $ROO million this year, an interesting fi~ure, a lot of ~oney,and we shall look forward with interest to hearing his Budget Speech and then the debates which follow it. ~aving said that,I~rm quite prepared, unless the minister has anything on Consolidated Fund Services to suggest that Head I - do any_ of my colleagues have anything on Consolidated Fund Services? Go ahead. , MR. WM. ROWE: Generally speaking. MR. ROBERTS: Or anything on the general head. MR.

CROSBIE: No, I was just going to ask for consent to do Head XII first because the Minister of lorestry and Agriculture, for certain personal reasons,may have to leave this afternoon and will not be here tomorrow, and I know he want, to say some general words first. MR. WM. ROWE: Generally, Mr. Chairman, we have no objections at all to doing them in whatever order the minister wants to,to accommo~ate the minister, but generally speaking, Mr.

Chairman, I wo.uld like to say a word or two really following along to its lo~ical conclusion a point made by the Leader of the O~position concerning the government coming into the Legislature now on the twenty-seventh day of March with Interim Supply requests. This House opened what? How many sessions did we have here? ~- ROBERTS: Thirty. MR. WM. ROWE: Thirty days we have sat in - MR. ROBERTS: Thirty sittint days. MR. "IN. ROWE: Thirty sitting days we have sat in this House. During that time, Mr.

Chairman, I am not being irrelevant I do not think, during that time the government kept calling the Address in Reply but no legislation to the House to speak of except of the most minor nature. Now, Sir, three days before the end of the financial year.in we come with I 2710

,. March 27, 1974 Tape No. 890 NM - 3 Intet'i!ll Supply. Now the fact that the Minister of Fin;,tnce brings in Interim Supply at this date is not really my point, My point is this. the management of the House and committees of the House this year, Sir, has been completely atroc-ious and I would say unprecedented. I do not think,there can be no problem at all from the Minister of Finance's standpoint as to why he did not bring in the main estimates of this House a week or two ago. He says his Bu~det Speech would have been brought down a couple of weeks ago had not the BRINCO think intervened, Well, Sir, we have been doing nothing in this House for the last three or four weeks 2711

March 27, 1974 Tape 891 IB-1 six weeks, thirty sitting days. MR. ROBERTS: We stood adjourned for ten days or something. MR. W. ROWE: We adjourned the Rouse for two weeks I think while one or two ministers went up 1back and forth from here to Montreal or from here to London,on the BRINCO thinp,. If there be any waste of time in this House or in the committee, Sir, I think the public should know that the government has to bear the responsibility for it.

If the Minister of Finance had brought in his budget last week or a week or two ago, the fact that a couple of ministers might have been absent on matters,however important they might be, is largely irrelevant. So what!

If there are eighteen or nineteen in the ministry who can come into this House and defend their departmental expenditures, if he had brought in the main estimates a couple of weeks ago, we could have spent a week or so on them and this stage now he could have brought in an interim supply bill and we would not even debate it, just put it through as a matter of course,because.we would know that we were already debating the main estimates on an item by item basis.

Now, of course, he brings in the interim supply, the general headings of interim supply where there are no subheads at ~11 }..i.11ted and we are forced to fish around and try to find out what is going on. As the Leader of the Opposition said, "Are there any new programmes or not?" We have to just fish around, go on fishing expeditions trying to find out information when really, Sir, we should at this stage be dealing with nothing but the main estimates. We will get those through the House in whatever time it takes; an in'terim supply bill would be a pure forma'tity at most.

Instead we are here .new and we feel duty bound as members of the opposition to question the government and the ministers on various things. So, there has to be a certain duplication of effort and a duplication of time and a duplication of information and questions back and forth across 2712

March 27, 1974 Tape 891 IB-2 the House. But, I would like to make that point, Sir, that general point on the main motion before the committee,that this government this year has wasted considerable time on the part of the members and on the part of the people of this province and on the part of the civil servants by not showing any leadership with regard to the budget, with regard to interim supply, with regard to legislation 1 with regard to anything. Then to add insult to injury, ~r.

Chairman, we see people like the House Leader going on television or elsewhere in his own inimitable way and ~aying that the opposition is wasting time in this Hnuse. The opposition is not wastinr time, Sir. We have no r.ontrol over what business is called in this honourable House. We have to debate whatever motions are called by the government House Leader and he has called the Address in .Reply and very little else. Now, he has waited until the (what is it?) the twenty-seventh day of this month to call interim supply and now we have to wait for another two weeks before the main estimates come before the House.

That is not our fault, Sir, it is the fault of the House Leader and his inefficient colleagues. The press should know that, Mr. Chairman, and the public should know that. With those few mild remarks, Sir, setting the tone, we can now move to Consolidated Fund Services. MR. MARSHALL: I do not want to precipitate a debate, Mr. Chairman, It is the last thing in the world that I would think of doing. I would just point out that the Address · in Reply is set down by constitutional practice. We have debated it for a long time.

Seventy-five per cent of the talking, I think the record will show,emanated from the official opposition. So chat if we have had such a colessal waste of time, let~ us chalk seventy-five per cent of it up to the opposition. MR. CRAIP~.A,.~ (MR. STAC.G): Shall Bead of Expenditure 1 carried. MR. ~A RS HALL-: Oh, Mr. Chairman, I think we are doing number 11, are we not? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Number 12. 2713

March 27. 1974 Tape 891 MR.. MAR.SHALL: Numbe?" 12, iccounts of the Minister o~ Forestry and Airiculture. MR. CRAI1'MAN (MR. STAGG): Order, please. IB-3 I·think we did call Head of Expenditure 1 to get the ball -rolling. On motion Head of Expenditure l canied. Read 12, Forestry and Agriculture, $1.6 million. MR. l-'AYNARD: Mr. Chainnan, there are no new programmes being indicated here in this request for expenditure. It breaks down the various parts which are a tontinuation of programines of last year which were debated in the budget debate. General Administtatiotl, $44,000; Forestry, $532,000; · Crown Lands, $143,000; Agriculture; $723,000 / 2714 ,.

March 27, 1974, Tape 892, Page 1 -- apb the Gros Morn National Park $130,000; minister's office $6.800 and miscellaneous $20,000, which it a total ·of $1,600,000. We have no, again I emphasize, no new programmes indicated here. Any new programmes that the Forestry and A~riculture Department will have and we will have some, will be announced or brought out when the main budget comes before the House. With that I do not think there is anything further I can say but I will try to answer questions from the honourable members if they have any. MR. CHAIR¥A~: The honourable Member for Bonavista North: MR. THOMS: Mr.

Chairman, -I do have a few questions I believe for the honourable minister. We have been sitting in this honourable House now for seven weeks and I have,al1110st daily,repeatedly asked the minister when he is going to publish the report on the Forestry Task Force. In early February he promised me it would be before the House before the end of February. Well, February came and it disappeared, now March has almost disappeared and there is no sign of that Taak Force Report yet.

Could the minister today inform this House when he intends to present this report to the Assembly because it is my information that the minister has had that report now for,if not a year,almost a year. I think he has bad long enough to study .it and I think he is duty bound to present that report to the Assembly and also to make it public to the people of Newfoundland. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would also like to know what is happening with the complex in Corner Brook? That is the complex thing, the agricultural building the~e,the abattoir, whether this is still under construction and if progress is being made on it?

Could the minister inform us approximately what time this building will be in operation? Also, if plans are going ahead with the producers to make sure that an adequate supply will be coming forth to ·~eep the building operating? Also, Mr. Speaker, I believe there should . be at least one new programme or one new project since the last project and that is 2715

March 27, 1974, ?ape 892, Page 2 - apb the potato seed farm in Glenwood. I believe the minister announced early last summer that a 1,000 acre p~tato seed farm would be undertaken by his department and I understand that some work was carried out on it. I wonder could the minister give us a report on that. When does he expect this farm to be in operation? Also, Mr. Speaker, there is another matter I would like to raise, a rather ticklish one. It is my understanding that iuring the fall of ·1973, I am sorry! During the spring of 1973, there were a number of young men hired on as assistant forest rangers • .

For some unknown reason or other these assistant forest rangers were promoted to ranger number (1). In their promotion they received more money than the rangers number (1) that were already in existence. Some of these rangers have been working With the department for twenty-four years and 1 understand that many of these rangers are_not at all happy with the situation.

They feel they have been by-passed, their seniority has not been recognized and I wonder if the minister could give us some idea as to exactly what happened in this regard and if steps are being taken to correct the situation ·, because I believe at the present time there is a possible bomb there that could explode any day in the minister's face. MR. MAYNilD: Mr. Speaker, on the firat question ask~ by the honourable gentleman, the Forestry Task Force 2716

March 27, 1974 Tape 893 PK - 1 Report,! have nothing further to say on it other than what I have alreadv said in the House on various occasions. As I understand it,we are going to release it. I refer to a co11DI1ent made by the honourable minister that we are duty bound to release this. This of course is a lot of nonsense. The Forest Task Force Report or all reports of that kind are internal government documents and it is completely up to government whether we release it or not.

To say that we are duty bound to release the Task Force Report is the same as to say that we are duty bound to release the recom.endation that I might make to the cabinet, which of course is utter nonsense. We will release it but we will release it only because we feel that it is in the public's interest to release it. If the government want at some time in the future not to release the report then it is completely government's option not to release it. There is no duty bound thing to it. It is not a document that was authorized by the House of Assembly, it is a document that was authorized by government.

That I hope clears up that matter. As far as the complex in Corner Brook is concerned, the complex is completed and ready to operate. There are one or two producers in the broiler operations on the West Coast. We are trying desperately to get other people into broiler and hog production on the West Coast so that we can use the Corner Brook Abattoir. The abattoiT in Corner Brook, as all members are aware by this time,a comedy of errors from the time of conception to the time it was finished both with the con~truction / end of it, with the architectural end of it• every other phase that you could mention.

It was a political move by the last government. The abattoir, l may get raked over the coals in Corner Brook for saying this but it should have been built in St. John's instead of Corner Brook because this is where the production is. But in any case so~ebody in their infinite wisdom decided to put an abattoiT in Corner Brook before there wa~ either hog or broiler producers on that coast. In any case what we have to do now is try and build up the production in the Western Area of Newfoundland so that we can try to make some sense out of building,a large $3 million complex in Corner 2717

March 27, 1974 Tape 893 PK - 2 Brook, It is going to take some time, It is probably going to take four to five years before that abattoir is really into full production. It is going to take that long to get the people, the broiler producers and the hog producers off the ground. The potato seed farm - we ran into some problems with the land. We do have it straightened out now. We will have the potato seed farm in operation next year. However, as the honourable member is aware,it will be impossible to supply seed potatoe• this coming year but we will be able to supply them the following year.

The land is,no doubt-as some honourable members are aware,or at least the rights to the land wereowned by Bowaters. We ran into some trouble but it was straightened out later in the fall. I am not aware of the number of people who were hired as assistant forest rangers and promoted to Ranger I. I do know there were some problems and there are some problems in classifications and the different rates of pay that forest rangers are receiving in the service.

I have talked to a number of people about this and I would - it appears to me that the trouble lies in the collective agreements that have been signed in the various intricacies, machinations or whatever that are involved in those collective agreements. Now I am not saying that to blame the collective agreement as such.

I think the people who worked it out, both treasury board and the unions,were sincere in their efforts but certainly each time that we seem to get someth~ng like that straightened out,the proper classifications and proper seniority and the proper rate of seniority and this sort of thing straightened out 4 a new collective agreement comes along and throws the whole thing out of kilter, Collective agreements as such,being involved with unions in the past, I know relate to the work force as a whole rather than taking into account individual problems, One of the problems that arose 2718

~arch 27, 1974, Tape 894, Page 1 -- apb one of the problems that arose after the second-last collective agreement was that forest rangers who were recently promoted got more money than forest rangers who had been there for a nmnber of years for some reason or another. I have tried to get my staff to explain this to me but I do not think anybody really understands it. However, we are trying to get it straightened out. We are trying to solve the problem but how soon it will be solved I do not know. I think these are all the questions that the honourable member has asked.

If there are any more I will be only too happy to try to answer them at least. MR. THOMS: please? Mr. Chairman, I wonder if we could have a quorum count MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a quorum. MR. THOMS: Mr.:=hairman. 'I wonder could the minister inform us if there has been any negotiations going on or any plans being made to either enlarge the present abattoir here in St. John's or to build a new one? Because, Mr. Chairman, at the present time the acc0111Dodations at Pleasantville are s01.1ewhat overcrowded and there is no room at all for any expansion in the St.

John's or even in the Avalon Area for our hog producers or our broiler producers. Many• of them,because they cannot expand,are runn~ng into some financial difficulties and one would not dar~ predict what would happen if this situation continues. · It is my contention that something should be done. Some­ thing baa to be done fast in order to maintain our present producers so that they can expand and also to encourage new producers into the area. I wonder if the minister could give us some information along t}lese lines? MR, MAYNARD: Basically, Mr.

Chairman, the position of the department is that as far as the processing and marketing facility in St. John's is concerned, we would like to see private enterprise enter into the field. Unfortunately, up to this date we have not found anyone in the private sector of the economy who i• willing to get into the 2719

. .. . . .,,? March 27, 1974, Tape 894, Page 2 -- apb processing and marketing business. We think that there are people who are interested. It may take some incentive on government's part to get them actually into production but this is what we are looking for. We are not anxious to continue in the abattoir business in St. John's or,~or that matter, anywhere else in the province. Newfoundland is the only province in Canada that runs a processing and marketing facility. It should not be a function of the Department of Agriculture nor any other department of government to be doing this.

It should be the function of the Department of Agriculture to be fostering and promoting the producers on the primary level, therefore, we have been looking around for people vho may be interested, We have talked to a number of national companies; we talked to some local people,all of whom have run into problems of one kind or another. If there be no one willing or would be willing to go into thi.s type of business either nationally or locally,and we would prefer someone locally, then we will have to, possibly~ from the point of view of service to the farmer, either renew the abattoir in St.

John's or expand it or build a new one. I do not feel that the present• building and the present equipment is capabie of being expanded to any great degree of efficiency. As for the present pro4~cers being in financial difficulties, that may be so but it is not directly related to the abattoir itself. We have just recently changed some of the regulations or the methods of operation and payments and this sort of thing in the ~ abattoir,which has relieved some of the financial burdens on the producers a fair amount.

As far as new producers getting into business, the honourable gentleman is right, _there is no room to accommodate any new producers in the area at the present tiMe. We would like to be able to do this from a departmental point of view, in helping them get started,but we would not anticipate that we 2720

March 27, 1974 Tape no. 895 Pqe 1 - MW should get into further processing and marketing facilities. I refer back to the Corner Brook abattoir.· If the money had been wisely spent, of course, the Corner Brook abattoir would have been situated in St. John's where the greatest market is, where the greatest potential is for agricultural products and we would not have the proble1118 that we have now. First of all we have the problem of an abattoir in Corner Brook, which we cannot use for the next two or three years; and secondly, we have a dilapidated abattoir in St. John's which we can use.

If we had a new one here, we have the production, if we pad a new abattoir - it is sort of an ironical situation that we have the new abattoir 450 miles away from the production but that is the way it is and thart is the way, unfortunately, this government have had to live with it. Mil. THOMS: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the minister can tell us vhat action is being taken within the Crown Lands

section of hia department to speed up the applications for land, especially for farmers and also for people who are seeking land to build houses on? I understand that at the present time it is taking a considerable length of time to get an application approved. I wonder if there ia a progranae to speed up the applications within the Crown Lands office? _HR. MAYNARD: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have gone through an analysis of the Crown ~ands situation,in the p~ocessing of applica~ions. We have concentrated on the

section of the Crawn Lands and Surveys Division which deals directly with the public and which is the one that is the most concern to the public. We are now abou~ to hire thirteen or fourteen new staff and we will take on more if necessary. One of the great faults with Crown Lands Division is that we were trying to operate with the &S!De number of staff which were in the division back in 1935 I believe, which was twenty-eight. The number of applications per year coming in 1935 was approximately 200 and the number of application• per year coming in in 1973 was around 30 000. It can easily be seen that the flumber of staff 2721

March 27, 1974 Tape no. 895 P~ge 7 available - when I say twenty-eight staff, I am talking about draftsmen, surveyors, everything, We are only talking about probably eight or nine people who are actually dealing vith the public and their applications. We are taking on more staff and we are also changing around the system, the old, antiquated system of dealing with applications and funneling the~ through to the various authorities and various systems, a ayatem which has been used back since 1940, 19300 something like that.

We are also experimenting now (it is ~orking o~t quite well) vith aerial photography,~specially in the area of summer cottage applications and residential applications. We find that a great number of applications for residential or summer cottages can be eliminated right at the start because from aerial photography we can detenlline whether it is a good site, whether it is a medium type site or whatever. The person who is applying can get an answer back at least within a matter of three or four weeks compared to, in some cases, two or three years previously. Now this is not all going to work out overnight.

It is going to take some time. Our aim is to have the Crown Lands Division completely revamped and completely streamlined hopefully by the last of July of this year. That is the

section that deals with the public. The revamping or streamlining of the other sections will have to come at a later date. I think these are the parta which are most important as far as the public are concerned. MR. F. B. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, just a short question relating to my District of St, Barbe North. There is a lot of land up there tied up by Bowater's concessions. There are two separate things. number of There are a ·2722

March 27, 1974 Tape 896 PK - 1 individuals in the district who are interested in setting up forest facilities on what amounts to Bowater concessions. There is some confusion as to whether or not they can set up these facilities as long as they do not do anything with the forests in these particular area, MR. MAYNARD: Is the honourable member talking about building buildings on Bowaters - MR. ROWE) F. B. Building cabins, forest cabins or summer cabins ; on Bowaters facilities.

Because it is the understanding of some people that they can do this as long as they do not interfer with the forests on the particular land in question. The other thing is,could the minister indicate or give some indication of what had been done to free the land for private sawmill operations in the area, particularly the Castor River Basin Area? Whether there are any woods operations going on there at the present time or whether any contracts have been let?

And if not, when does the minister anticipate that these Bowaters concessions will and if indeed they will be made available or turned back to the crown so that the people in the district who suffer from a high unemployment rate can get back into the woods and operate private sawmill operations and tourist establishments and this type of thing? MR. MAYNARD: The first question, Mt:, Chairman, is a legal and is a very technical one.

As I understand it and I could be corrected by any of the legal brains in the House of Assembly, that where Bowaters hold licence to timber lands, they can prevent buildings of any kind whether it is commerical or residential or whatever on any of the iand where they hold a timber licence as long as there is a timber potential there, Now again that is a very legal question. It is one really that can only be detennined · if, for instance, the honourable member had a specific case and it could be referred to our Department of Justice for a legal opinion. It is one that I really cannot answer.

I know for instance that we have had an opinion,if Bowaters, let us say Bowaters and it could be ?rice or let us say a private company holds a timber licence, they 2723

March 27. 1974 Tape 896 PK - 2 build a road across that timber licence. if the road leads to public land and even on a timber licence. it is still public land, it has to be considered as a public road. If the road leads to private property it can ~e barred at the boundary of the private property. In other words they own the land and the timber as well. So each individual thing has to be considered individually and I am really not competent to answer the question. As far as the freeing of timber land for woods operations is eoncerned, we worked out some exchange with Bowaters last year in that area.

They were agreeable to letting us have 10 1 000 cords in exchange for some place~in Howley I think it was. The 10,000 cords area, combined with the crown timber in the Castor River Area,should enable people to be able to cut some wood at least.

The problem there,as I understand from talking to the Labrador Linerboard officials, as they would like to have the wood - they would like to be able to ship the wood out of Brig Bay and the wharf in Brig Bay is not suitable - I know that representation was made by Labrador Linerboard to the federal government because the wharf in Brig Bay and ~he whhrf in Plum Point both of them are federal structures. That representation was made to the Federal Department of Public Works to have the wharves upgraded and made suitable for shipping wood over them.

As I understand it there have not been anything done with the exception of repairs on the wharf at Brig, 1Bay which is a matter of replacing a few old timbers or whatever - it has rotted away. Linerboard is still trying to find some way to get wood out of there becau•e they would like to take 5,000 cords or 6,000 cords or 10,000 cords of wood a year out of there.

I believe one person had a contract or was about to get a contract and I know a number of people from that area have been inquiring to me about contracts. 1 think we could certainly accommodate them as far as the wood is concerned, if it is a 5,000 cords or 6,000 cords or 7,000 cords or 8,000 cords a year operation, not a large one but a medium size operation. We could also accommodate them with access roads to the timber but the 2724

M.arch 27, 1974 Tape 896 PK - 3 problem is shipping. Right now the only place they can ship from is Hawkes Bay which is quite a long haul. It is around forty-five miles from the woodland, so it is not really economical. One thing that may come in here or the new forest policy that we have introduced in the Legislature and hopefully at some time we will get through the House of Assembly, will require of course that Bowaters or whoever owns the timber rights in that area utilize those timber rights.

Whether they utilize them ·themselves or whether they give them to someone else to utilize or however it works,it would still amount to pretty well the same thing as far as employment is concerned. All of those areas will have to be utilized. Certainly in that area and in the Castor River drainage there are thousand of cords of relatively over-mature timber that should be harvested in the very near future. It will certainly do a great deal to the employment situation there, the people in general.

I am hoping that we can certainly get some cloak if you will with people like Bowaters who have concessions,in an area like that and who are not using them. It is certainly a crime to see that wood just standing there with no way to ha-rvest it. MR. ROWE. F. B. Well, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to go on record as pointing out the really pathetic situation that exists in the southern part of the district, In St.

Barbe North,where you have massive unemployment, people who have worke~ in the woods all of their lives are sitting home doing nothing, on welfare and here we have large timber stands that are virtually at this very point in time rotting on the stump. I would say just another very few years before this wood will be absolutely useless to anybody, A lot of it is useless now probably.

I do not think this situation can continue to go on any longer and I will just make a request to the minister that he use whatever cloak he has to get Bowaters to~xchange or release that land so that it can be used by the people in the district. It i~ a pathetic situation to see, I have experienced this now for the past two years since I had the opportunity to represent that district. I am aaddened every time I go up there to see the situation in these southern cotnmunities 2725

March 27 0 1974 Tape 896 n- 4 and see th:ls wo.od there just standing rotting on the stump. Now as I under!ltand it the minister said that Bowaters have handed over an area equivalent of 10,000 cords per year for - MR. MAYNARD: Inaudible. MR. ROYE, El . B. Not per year but .. 2726

March 27, 1974 Tape No. 897 NM - 1 period and if this wood is to be used for supplying the linerboard mill or •· MR. MA~ARD: No, one can use it for anything. MR. F. ROWE: One can use it for anything but one is still working on concessions or releases for the purpose of supplying the linerboard mill and that has not reached any substantive point yet•. ~- !-f.AYNARD: No. MR. F. ROWE: Right. Well the only thing, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to point out to the minister that there is a serious situation there in the district and I think it is urgent that his department get this land back to the Crown or get it back to any operation that can employ the people in the southern communities of St. Barbe North. MR. WM. ROWE: Carried: He is trying to be provocative, M.r. Chairman, the House Leader. On the question of the Task Force Report, Mr. Chairman, did the minister say when he was going to table it in the House or make it public? MR. MAYNARD: No. MR. WM. ROWE: Can the minister say when? MR.

MAYNARD: No more than I have already said, MR. WM. ROWE: Well why not? I mean is it a technical problen:.. Is it a problem of printing ? What is t"he problem with the Task Force Report'! Can th,e minister let us know? Why is it not tabled? Is it a technical problem or is it a problem? Is it that the minister's mind is not 1rade up or the government's mind is not made up? What is the problem? Can the minister tel\ us? MR. 'fAYNARD: There is nothin~ further I can say about tabling the Task Force _ Report than what I have already said on a number of occasions, Mr. Chairman, that I am aware of.

To the best of my knowled~e it is still government's intention to table the Task Force Report, I would assume that an opportune time has to be reached before it is tabled. 2727

March 27, 1974 Tape No. 897 NM - 2 MR. WM. ROPE: What kind of an answer is that, Mr. Chairman, to what I consider at least a half rationable question? The minister gets u~, now he is sitting down, Sir, grinning like a hyena, He stands up in this House - MR. ~:AYNAP.D: I never grin, MR. ID(. ROWE: He grins and smiles and gapes like a hyena, Mr. Chairman. He stands up in this House a month or' so ago and undertakes to the House to table the Task Force Report on Forestry. He undertook to t~e House to do that.

Now when my colleague, the member for Bonavista North,gets up and says something about his being duty bound, or I say he is duty bound to table the report, we are not talking about a government being duty bound to table a report, an inter-departmental or an inter-ministerial document, we are talking about a report which the minister said he was going to table in this honourable House, That is why he is duty bound to do it, Mr. Chairman. Now ~e seems to be talking, trying to skirt the issue and saying as far as he knows,to the best of his knowledge it is still government's intention. Well I hope so, Mr.

Chairman. because otherwise •the minister had misled the House • . I do not know if this government would consider it to be serious or not but in most parliamentary institutions, the misleading of the House by a minister is the most serious sin or crime that can be committed. Now the minister, I would advise him, I would advise the minister not to take backwater from the government on the matter because he has already committed himself to the House and he should not say to the best of his knowledge or to the best, you know, it is the intention of the government.

He should,if he is going to live up to his commitment in the House, state firmly that he is going to and . he should also say when. I do not see any reason why he cannot tell this House of Assembly why or when,rather, he is going to table the Task Force Report. Will he say this much; will the Task Force Report be tabled before the government · calls the new Forestry Bill for a further debate? Can he answer that 2728

March 27, 1974 Tape No. 897 NM - 3 question? MR. MAYNARD: For further debate I cannot really answer but I will say that unless government tell me otherwise, and they have not told me as yet otherwise, that the Task Force Report will certainly be tabled before the Forestry Bill is debated in complete detail in second reading or - yes second reading. ~- THOMS: But it is in second reading now? MR. WM. ROWE: Committee MR. MAYNARD: Yes, well it has only started second reading now. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, is there any significance you know to the fact that the forestry legislation has been held up?

We are still in second reading. It bas been cut off, the date has been cut . off on it and the fact that the Task Force Report has not been made public you know is there any relationship at all between what is in the Task Force Report and the content of the legislation? Is there any analogy or any analogue to be drawn for instance between that kind of­ a situation and the situation that we find the government in now in negotiations with BRINCO,having slapped legislation or notice of legislation on the Order Paper.

Nothing has been done about that and there seems to be some peculiar goings on with BRINCO, Is there anything peculiar about what is in the Task Force Report and the fact that this legislation has not been 'pursued with here in this House of Assembly. MR. MAYNARD: No there is nothin~ peculiar about it, Mr. Speaker.

We are certainly going to go on with the forestry legislation a simply a matter, unfortunate probably in some ways that other things happen~ to drop right into the centre of the heap and these have to be dealt with first but as soon as we get around to it, after we get some money to pay our salaries and all that sort of thin~, we will be going on with the forestry legislation again. MR. WM. ROWE: What is the minister talking about, Mr. Chairman? We have not done a tap of work in the House for six weeks and he says - look the honourable member for Green Bay, Mr. Chainnan, who showed what 2729

March 27, 1974 Tape No, 897 ID{ - 4 political acumen he had down in Hermitar,e,where he manar.ed a disastrous camDaign, mind you he bad very little to work with - MR. MORGAN: Wastinr, the time of the House now, come on: ~. U?r. 'ROWE: Oh the '!ahoo from Bonavista South is back again. I thought he was going to leave, ~!r.~airman, what a sigh of relief went up from that side of the House when he announced that he was no longer ~oing to sit in the House, NOW' he has gone again, the Yahoo from Bonavista South. Now, Mr.

Chairman, do I have the right to speak in silence and not be perse~uted by and not be harassed by the likes of that honourable member~ Is that my right? It is, is it not, Mr. Chairman? Very good. N~w, ~r. Chairman, I would like to know what the minister is talking about. The Forestry Bill is brought into the P.ouse and it is debated for a day or so an? the minister gets so much flak for no~ · supplying any information to the House, for not tab.ling the Task Force Report,that ' it is hurrledly withdrawn by the House Leader.who gets up and 111 an unusual SDleenful • 2730

March 27, 1974 Tape 898 IB-1 speech withdraws it from the House, from debate, does not call it any more. The honourable Minister of Forestry now stands up and says, "Unfortunately other things were dropped in the middle." Now, what other things, I would like to know? What has been going on? Nothing, Mr. Chairman. We have had twenty-two acts or bills presented to the House, one was to change a comma. Another we had a ireat debate on was the insertion of a semicolon. Another one, there was a word spelled wrong, and so on through the other twenty-three or twenty-four pieces of legislation.

Yet, a piece of legislation that the government considered to be - what was that, was that the greatest thing since the world began or since Confederation1 What was that? I am losing track now you see, Mr. Chairman. Restructuring was the greatest thing since Adam and Eve. Then when the forestry policy, the new forestry policy was brought in AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Oh, no, no, no! The social welfare • . MR. W. ROWE: Oh, no. Social welfare was the greatest thing since Confederation. The new forestry bill was the greatest thing since John Cabot. BRINCO was the greatest thing since Adam and Eve.

Now, the next thing - I do not know what we are going to have next. The calendar, that calendar we saw the other day was - i.N HONOURABLE MEMBER: Not was, BRINCO is. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I mean what is t~e problem? Is the minister ashamed of his legislation that he hu~iedly withdrew it? Did he find that he was caught you know in a very embarrassing situation were there were doubts being raised and political questions were cominr, up as to whether they had done the right thing or not? Is this the problem? There is no reason why we could not have debated that. We could have gone on with it.

It was the only thing of some substance, probably importance,that has been in the House since the House sat, since the House commenced sitting in this sessiQn of the House, There was no reason at all why we could not go on with it. Mr; Chairman, there was another question I asked the minister at 2731

March 27, 1974 Tape 898 tB-2 the time. I asked him how much the advertising, all that apate of advertising that a company, the introduction of that particular forestry legislation l in the House, how much that cost. The minister would not tell me when I asked him questions on it. He might also, when he is giving me the information as to how much it cost, he might also tell the House whether he agrees with the Minister of Finance who said that the advertising was use1ess or there was too much advertising or something like that. Is that the government? Which is government policy?

In other words; that such advertising is useful for the public or that it is useless and a waste of money? Perhaps the minister might be able to elucidate that particular contradiction for us. First of all,could he tell us how much the advertising campaign cost, the television, radio and newspaper advertising campaign? MR. MAYNARD: I am very surprised that the honourable member did not take two hours to ask those three questions. Bowever, he is not up to his usual form today.

This bit about the bill being hurriedly withdrawn, I got too much flak and all this sort of stuff - what a lot of nonsense! ·1 wonder do the honourable members really believe themselves when they are going on with all this - well, I will not say the rest of it. Anyway, the bill vas not withdrawn. I saw the Order Paper today and the bill was very much evident on the Order Paper. So, it does not look like it is withdrawn. As far as flak is concerned, if y~u can call what came from the oppo_sition benches flak, well, then I suppose I got flak from three people.

Apart from that I got acolytes and all kinds of praise from the rest of Newfoundland about the bill. I assure the honourable . -,: gentlemen that it is still very much active and it is going to be discussed and hopefully with the leave of this honourable House it is going to be introduced as legislation. The House may need some minor changes. I stress the word minor because I do not think it is possible to have any major changes in the bill unless it were scraped altogether and I am certain 2732

March 27, 1974 Tape 898 IB-3 that the House is going to agree that it should go through in substantially its present form. How much did the advertising cost? First of all, in my opinion, Mr. Chairman, it was not advertising. It was public infonnation and the public information programme that was carried on with the legislation of forestry policy cost $42,000. It was done by McLaren of Montreal - AN HONOURABLE "1-fE}IBER: McLaren or McLean? MR. MAYNARD: McLaren. McLean is from Toronto. McLaren Advertising from Montreal. Whether or not I agree with the Minister of Finance is irrelevant.

It was government's decision to do the public information campaign. It was quite necessary and it worked out very, very well because I have had a lot of very favourable comments on it. Again I emphasize that this bill will go on. It was not withdrawn. It has merely been delayed because of other work. If the honourable member from White Bay South have not done any work, I can assure him that members of the govemment have done a considerable amount in the last two or three weeks. MR. 'W. ROWE: No, Mr. Chairman, not carried yet. Did the minister say $42,000? MR. MAYNARD: Right. MR. W. ROWE: For McLaren of Montreal.

In two days, Sir, we have seen where the Minister of Tourism - now coming into the House - he has told us that $250,000, I believe, was paid to McLean. There was another figure as well. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. W. ROWE: Another $43,000 in last year's estimates,yes. Yea, this is last year as well or this year, the present year, you know. Another $50,000, nearly $50,000,for another advertising. Two departments have been questioned on it. Have there been SI!Y other amounts spent for advertising during the past year, either to McLean or McLaren or anybody else? MR. ~AYNAFD: Not by me. MR. W.

ROWE: Not by the minister's department. This is the only amount, 2733

March 21 1 1974 Tape 898 IB-4 $42,000 to McLaren for advertising i~ connection with the forestey bill. So, we have - what is that a total of now in two departments for public r~lations work? $3SO,OOO,is it? $350,000 of public money spent for at least doubtful and dubious purposes. Some people, ~r. Chairman, would say useless purposes. Other people would say that it is not only useless but pernicious in that most of it is for political patronage purposes.

Certainly the Minister of Finance,when he was speaking on another address before this House concerning the private members resolution, brought ln by the member for St. John's North, talked .about and condoned political patronage,thereby getting an editoral by Wick Collins,he thereby in turn incurring the_arrogant wrath of the Minister of Finance. Mr. Chairman, the press should know again and the public should know that here we have in two or three random examples well over -~~0,000 of public money lashed out for at best dubious purposes and at worst harmful and pernicious purposes 2734

March 27, 1974 Tape no. 899 Pqel-~ perhaps,political pay-offs or political patronage, $350,000. We shall c9ntinue, Mr. Chairman, throughout the debate on these interim estimates and when the main estimates come before the House particularly, to look into this question of public money being throW? out to friends of the government,in most cases to advertise. The Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications can scoff all he wishes.

The fact of the matter is that most reasonable people, i~ they were given this amount of money (this is only the tip of the iceberg I would submit) of $350,000, if that amount of money were mentioned to them and then they were told what it was used for, Mr. McLean's various enterprises for producing patronizing films or to pay for a useless and hopelessly incompetent advertising campaign in respect of the new government forestry policy, if most reasonable people were asked, I would say nine out of ten members of the public, if they were asked, Mr.

Chairman, is this a good use of public money? they would say no it is not. They would say I would rather see that $350,000 spent on upgrading and paving the road from Fleur-de-Lys to Baie Verte or the Random Island 1110rass mentioned by mv colleague from Fogo yesterday or other petitions in this House for water and sewer projects, for roads or for schools. I understand that the Minister of Education is very worried or at least he should be worried about public statements and private communications concerning the problems that the school boards are having on capital and current account. If this government, Mr.

Chairman, which is beset by financial problems on all.sides, see nothing wrong with throwing away public money on useless advertisin~ campaigns, with pictures of ministers or television public relations work, designed, Mr. Chairman, (I make this flat accusation) not to inform the public but to try to bolster the flagging fortwtes of the Tory Party in the eyes of the public (That is the only reason for itJ I think it i  a disgraceful use of public money.· I think the $300,000 or whatever it 2735

Karch 27, 1974 Tape DO. 899 .... 2 vu .,. talked about yest•rday from the Hiniater of Touria '• departaent for public relation.a work and for filu, alide• and this sort of thing, 1 a disgraceful use of public money and the $42,000 that the Minister of Forestry spent out of his lut year's budget for hopelessly incompetent - even if it were the most competent advertising in the world. Mr. Cbairun, there is no need for that kind of thing, no need for that kind of information. not inforaatioa, that kind of slick prOP,agada, There is a great need for illforaatioa. Kr.

Chainum, any one who reads the aavapaper ..t.ertisiag or bu watched the television stuff or the radio atuff kuova that there is no information given. It is an attempt at slick propagandising. Fortunately from the point of view of the people of tbe proviDce, it falls short of the ark. Bobody is taken in by thia kind of propaganda. If it were truly informational in motivation and truly inforaatioaal ill ·effect, then it would be good. Mr. Cbainum, to have.public IIOUY epnt pn this kind of stuff, which by the admiHion of the Hiniater of • I ' Fioace is political patronage, is a disgrace. Mr.

Chairun, if we were Ontario or Alberta, with a11• the aoaey in the world, we -could probably overlook it, raise aa eyebrow at it •and overlook it. When you are• the pooreat province ill CaDca or the next thing to it, when you have 800 or 900 coammities lookiag for public service,: of various kinds, when you have school con.truction and school maintenance suffering the risk of not being looked after properly this year com.ing up, it is a disgraceful thing for this gove~nt to .be spending this kind of money on this kind of activity, propqandizillg, public relations work for no useful purpoae whatsoever.

I would aubmit, Sir, that we have only seen the tip of the iceberg yet. God alone knows what will happen vhen ve get to the estimatea of the Minister of Fiaheriea. We do not know what Industrial Development are pending out. I would say, Sir, that anything short of many hundreds of million  of dollare 2736

March 27 • 1974 Tape no. 899 Page 3 on this type of thing - I would miss my guess if it were short of maybe millions of dollars this year on thia aort of thing. We look forward to getting the information from the various ministers. Mr. Chairman. I would like to go on the record. as one aember of this House• as condemning this type of activi~y and for stating categorically that I consider it to be a disg~aceful use of public funds. Mlt. CBAllUWI (Mr. Dunphy): I would like to welcome to the Bouse this afternoon the forty-nine St • .John's Brownie Pack, . accompanied by · Kra. Vera Young and Mrs. Shirely Ludlow.

It is our sincere wish that their stay will be enjoyable and informative. KR.. F. B. I.OWE: Mr. Chairman, could I ask the minister this question! Thia interview that we see between himself and the back of somebody's bead that appears on television from time to time or had appeared on television from time to time in the paat, was this a public affair• programme or was it a paid advertisement? AH BON. MEMBER: Interview. KR.. F. B. ROWE: The interview between the minister and the back of IJOl!lebody's head. MR.. HAYN.AID: I do not remember one with the back of someone'• head on it.

Ia the honourable member talking about the CJOH._thinl, during the five day? MR. F. B. ROWE: Yes. MR.. MAYHAllD: That was a paid advertisement. HR. F. B. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, it seems to me - I mean this is in the political realm. I do not know if the C.R..r.c should be asked to look at this but I equate this type of activity witb political advertiaing and at no tiae did I see credit  given during any one of these interviews or any one of these programmes. I think that the minister and._the ' · gcwenment 1n general ahould see to it in the future that at any time they 2737

March 27~ 1974 . Tape no. 899 Page 4 · put political advertising or advertising of this nature on television, governmental advertising on 'television, radio or in the newspapers or anywhere elae, that it should be stated quite clearly that this is - well it is not a campaign, so you would not say this is a paid political broadcaat,but it should be at•ted quite clearly that this is a government advertisement ao that the people of Newfoundland will realize once and for all that all of this is costing them money that could otherwise go to• the public services in this province. MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Chairman, as I understand the C.B..T.C. rules and I am not up on all the rulu, 2738

March 27, 1974 Tape 900 Ill-1 that if it be a political advertisement, then the station must give equal time tc the other party. The government is quite different fr0111 political parties and if the station were to give equal time to the other government in Newfoundland, they would have a hard time finding one I think. They are the only one around that I know of. MR. THOMS: Mr. Chairman, could the minister inform us who was interviewing him on television? Who was doing the interviewing? AN HONOURABLE ME~ER: Oh, stop wasting time. MR~ THOMS: I am not wasting time. I am seeking information "Mr.

Human Rights II·­ HR. Jf.AYNARD: One of the people from c.JON. I do not remember his name right offhand. MR. SIMKJNS: Mr. Chairman, I would like to add my voice to what has been said on the subject of the advertising, the public infoniati _on_, -call it what you will. I think we all know what we are talking about. I think the minister in the last c0111111ent, the last exchange between him and-, colleague from St. Barbe North,managed to confuse what was a fairly legitimate question. We were not talking about free time for political advertising.

We were not talking about equal time for various parties or other government or whatever it is he was attempting to put into words. That is not the issue. The issue is that there was a very sly attempt, a very sly attempt to camouflage the point that the interview between the minister and the television station interviewer, a very sly attempt to conceal the fact that it was paid advertising. That is the point.

If he is going to be so open about it, if he says it is not advertising, it is an attempt to inform the public, let him label it that and let him and his government have the guts to put on the screen for all to see, "The preceed_f:n~ _ o! the the following telecast 1• a paid public infonution programme sponeored by the government of Newfoundland." Let him say that. Let him say outside the House a~d on television what he is •aying in the House. Let us call this what it is. It is a sly, lily attempt and I would hope beneath the ainister to do this kind of thing but I have seen 2739

March 27, 1974 Tape 900 IB-2 it done. In most cases, Mr. Chairman - let us be honest with ourselves - in most cases,when you see a public official being interviewed on television by one of the regular news staff of that television station,one can assume that,one would normally assume that this is part of a news prograane. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that that was exactly the attempt that was made and that is what makes it so sly, that was indeed a paid programme drawing oo money from the public coffers,was trying to be presented as a news type programme. It is sly.

I do not believe public 111011ey ought to be aliocated for that kind of purpose. I repeat if this kind of thing is going oo, if the government feel there ought to be public information programmes, I would like to make two points, repeat two points. First of all, if it is costing the government and therefore the people money to put on these progra111111es, let the government divulge this openly without indulging in some sly effort to conceal it. The second point is let it be information.

I suppose if you are going to present information, you would assume that as a result of having conveyed the information somebody would be riser. Well, I know a lot of people across the province who are no wiser after following those advertisements or public information programmes or whatever the minister wants to call them. They are no wiser. They are scratching their heads a little more wondering what the purp«:'se of it all vas. They are even assigning some motives to it. I will tell you the motives I am hearing,as I go around,being assigned to that kind of so-called information prcgraane.

The motive is not that it was a sincere attempt on the part of_ the government to give information. ~•t I am hearing is how sly, hav sly and what I am hearing in more words is that it is an effort of _government, u -.y colleague the member for White Bay South said a few moments ago, to bolster, an attempt to bolster a badly sagging image. Let 111e tell them,if they are open to advice, that if that is their concern, they are going to have to do a whole lot more, Mr. Chait'lllan, than write s0111e 2740

March 27, 1974 Tape 900 IB-3 flowery script, for television,about forestry. They are going to have to cone up with some solid progranmies for Newfoundland, for the people of Newfoundland and from what I have seen so far of the forestry bill - I will get an opportunity to say this at more length I am sure in the ' debate,if we ever get a chance to see the report or the

summary of the report,if we ever get a chance to get back on the debate again. I suppose at some time we will and I shall then address myself to the subject. What I have seen so far and if I must judge from the information programmes on television - that is about all I have to judge from because the answers have been far and few between in this House on the subject of the forestry - if I must judge from what I have heard on televiaion ia the so called information programmes, the intervj,ews and the paid interviews, let me give a little feedback to the minister.

I for one - I believe I have a lot who stand with me on this - I for one am no wiser at all about what is the intent of the government's legislation in forestry, no wiser at all having watched the programme. I have seen -some good aerial photoRraphy. I have seen a lot that makes for good television if you could tum down the sound but I have not seen or beard much by way of information. The overall point, Mr. Chainnan, which bears reiterating,is that let the government on this and other advertising campaigns, whether t~e welfare programme or what have you, let them be honest.

If they are paying out public funds to get across in their minds information, let them publicly label and let them publicly say that this is costing the treasury money. I ••Y that the failure of the 80vernment to do that is sly and lacks basic integrity. MR. W. J!OWE: Ia the minister not going to offer even a half.-haarted defense or does he realize that his ·poait10n is not defensible? Oh, it is an embarrassing 110111ent for the government, Mr.

Chainian. ~embers, the backbenchers, eapeciall7 when they see co_mmunities io their district with people walking around up to their knees in mud or worse becsuae they have no water and sever systems and the· tovemment 2741

March 27, 1974 Tape 900 is 1,asbing out, 1n two departments alora• did lash out last year $350,000 or $400,QOO for nothing but politically partisan public relat1Dll8 work, Mr. Cbainum. It 1s an embarruaing moment end lam ilot surprised that the minister cannot: get to his feet and give any kind of an uplanation. The most interesting aspect of the whole thing is the wtllingneH of the government to throw out public money, to fling 2'742

March 27, 1974 Tape 901 PK - 1 it out with both hands when it comes to public relations advertising, yet the unwillingness of the government to give any solid information on the forestry programme, as has been repeatedly requested of them, with respect to the Task Force Report, Without costing the government one cent, this Task Force Report can be ma.de available to the House and can be made available to interested members and to the public. They will not do it. It might cost a few dollars to have it printed up but nothing like $42,000.

The government gladly throws out hundreds of thousands of dollars for PR work with no informational content. Yet it will not lift a finger to give the public or their representatives solid information as would be contained in the Task Force Report. Now, Mr. Cha:l.rman, that speaks for itself. Mr. Chairman, there ' f is no need for anyone to labour that point, That speaks for itselfJ It is the rankest kind of political hypocrisy. Now, Mr.

Chairman, on another subject altogether ,: Under the Rural Development Programme a considerable amount of money ia being given out by way of loans, so-called,to people to get into the sawmill operation .business. From the Rural Development standpoint that is good~ I can see that, that is good to allow people to build .or e:,q,and that type of facility and employ people. From the purely forestry management aide of that picture, Mr. Chairman, ~uld the minister give us some ideas as to how this is operating? I mean is it an efficient use of the forestry resource?

Is it an efficient use of public money,in the minister's estimates? His officials have probably riven him s0111e advice ' on ' {t. Now that he can give some public information.himself~ how is the plan working from the forestry standpoint?

I realize it is probably all right fr0111 the creation of employment standpoint but fr~m.hia aide of the picture where his officials have to give licence• and permit• to cut wood and have to allow people to go pllces and to probably incur the cost with the Government of Canada for access road operations and this sort of thing, could he give us a brief reslJlllll perhaps when we getsinto the main estimates, where we can get into it a little more fully. But at the moment how is it from his standpoint? Is it a good type of 2743 I

March 27, 1974 Tape 901 PlC - 2 prograae? MR. MAYNARD: Well very briefly, Mr. Chairman, the Rural Development Authority and our forestry people were pretty close together in getting sawmills back into operation or getting new sawmill enterprises underway in the province in the last year or so. As far as utilization of the resource is concemed,we have not encountered any great problems. Most of the sawmill operators are utilizing the timber in a fairly efficient manner by producing both lumber and pulp wood. Wherever there is a sale for the pulp wood, that happens in most cases.there are some inefficiencies.

We realize that and these we are working on and we will gradually overc0111e these as the Rural Development Authority or the Department of Rural Development now gets into its ARDA Programme where a lot of the sawmill operators can get better equipment and gets more efficient equipment and therefore more efficient operations • . .. This is going to take a bit of time but it has to be done because it is a more efficient use of the forest resources in line with the new announced forest policy. I did not get up after the last speaker had taken his seat, Mr.

Chairman, because I did not really hear anything that was worthy of. comment from the honourable member • . He did mention that he could not understand the forest policy ~ut •~•in that is his problem I suppose. It is not my problem if he does not have the mental capablity of understanding what is written on a paper in very simplistic and straightforward language. That is about all I would have to say in this p~rticular case. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Chairman, I had hoped and I endorse it c01Dl)letely what the Leader of the Opposition had said when he appealed to the ministers,in steering their estimates through to stick with the issues at hand, I endorse what he said because -I very much wanted to have a gentleman's debate on this particular subject. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS: For my

part it shall continue to be a gentleman's debate. Had the minister chosen to listen to what 1 said rather than leave the 2744

March 27, 1974 Tape 901 PK - 3 Chamber at the time, I would certainly appreciate the co111Dents that he has aade and take them.under advisement. The fact that he did leave the Chamber, which is his business, but I would ask him not to make stock co111Dents about the subject if he is not going to respond to what I think was a very legitimate point. I could stoo~ to his level and suggest that he did not understand it. Then what follows? But I do not think that is what we are here for, Mr. Chairman. I hope the minister learns that reasonably soon.

I made a very legitimate point and if he should not understand it, I ahall repeat it for him. shall repeat it again for him. -'--- --- -· If he should not understand it,. then I \ I suggested that if the government are going to engage in public information progr8llllles, particularly when those infomation progranes consist of things like interviews which can very easily get miaconstrued as news programmes and therefore carry a different weight in the public mind than if they were labelled as paid advertisements, lf the government are going to get involved in that kind of public information progr811De I suggested that basic integrity force government to let the public . know that this is costing money fr0111 the public treasury.

That was not done. I do not care whether the minister resp011ds to the c011111ent. I do not even care if he understands the comient. All I am concerned with is that public funds are being spent in this way. I am concerned that the public know about this. If the minister is too arrogant or for whatever reason cannot take the suggestion, I appeal to SOiie of the less arrogant members of his group, his administration,to take the matter under advisement not only u far a1 it applies to public information with respect to forestry ~rogrammes but any other public information programmes.

Be also managed to misconstrue my point in another way. I did not say that I did not understand what was printed in the paper or what was presented in this House. I say, if a one memb~r of the public I am suppose to be DK>re informed as a result of what I saw in the paid information programmes on television, I informed him I am none the wiser. 2745

March 27, 1974 Tape 901 . PX- 4 Now I vould hope that I am at lea•t d'erage in terwu of the intelligence of Newfoundlanders. If 1 am none the wiser ray point was, but he obviously missed it, Mt. Chaim.an, my point wa that if 1 .. be none the wiser u a resµlt of their television infotmadon programmrs perhaps there are others in the same .boat. ~ : •  .. 2746 ., .

March 27, 1974 Tape no. 902 Page 1 - MW Mr. Chairman, I would like to come to the matter of RDA as it relates to the administration of the forests in the province. I may be misquoting the minister but as he spoke in ~eply to a question from my colleague from White Bay South, he said that the RDA people and the forestry people work very closely together. Now I would assume, I stand to be corrected, that the implication there is that there is co-ordination between the two programmes.

I would assume that as a result of working closer together, there is not too much confusion, not too much going off in diverse directions and so on. Of course that is not the cue at all but I can (I will not at this time) present information involving a ~umber of cases where RDA loans have been approved without even the knowledge of the forestry people in the area concerned and, therefore, obviously without any consultation to see if the forest limits were available to meet the demands which would be implicit in the RDA loan.

I omitted to say and which I should have said that the RDA loan is concerned for the purpose of sawmilling. I can present to this Bouse but I will not at the moment for reaeons which I have, information where there were a number, quite recently, of RDA loans for sawmilling purvoses and, therefore, involving timber limits, made and approved by the RDA without even the knowledge of the senior forestry official in the particular area concerned. MR. W. N. ROWE: Would the honourable member permit a question? MR. SIMMONS: Sure. MR. W. N.

ROWE: Is the honourable member aware as I am that there were at least several occasions where RDA loans bad been given out and before permits were applied for and when permits for sawmilling operations were applied for they were not even granted, the loan having already been given out? Is the member aware of this? KR. SIMMONS: Thanks. I am aware of that. I did not want to unload the whole load on the minister before he was given an opportunity of qualifying his rather general statement. I am sick and tired, Mr. Chairman, 2747

March 27, 1974 Tape no. 902 Page 2 •• one member of thi Bouse, of hearing ·rather general pontificatiou by lldnisters without any reference to the facts. I do not knov if they do not know the facts. I do not know if_ they have f~ct•·• ;Mr. Chai.man, that they do not want to diwlge. I do not know if they a-re jut playing with this as the minister tried to do with ae rather weakly a few lldnutes ago. 1 do not know if that is the g8M. I am hoaeetly seeking some information. t am. sick and tired of being played vith.

When I hear general pontificationa abou.t how IDA a.d forestry are working very closely together on the one band and when I see aEOund ae all kinda of evidence that that is just not so, I think I• entitled to ask a few questions. 1 think the minister, if be is going to live up to bis responsibilities, his sworn responsibilitiu, 1 think he ought at least to stand up and as a man aay be does not know or that he misled the Bouse or he made the statement without due regard for the facts or he will go look for the facts or llJaatever the cue may be. There i  some explanation for this. I cannot buy, Kr.

Chairman, (1 stand to be educated on the point) the stateaent that tu>A and forestry are working very closely together, when you have the kind of situation that 1 have mentioned where RDA loan have been granted for savmilling without the fore try officials even knowing about it, although timber pendts were implicit in the loau decision, when that kind of a thing i  soing on or the kind of thing my colleague the Member for White Bay South has mentioned. We are not talking about approval in principle, Kr.

Chairman; · It is understandable that the RDA would sometimes give approval in principle probably and then say to the applicant,"well look, this approval i  subject to your getting the appropriate permit to cut ticbar." That ia a reasonable way to proceed. We are not talking about that.

Mr.Chairman, we are talking about the final decision having b~en given; in ·some cases the 110ney having been handed out, by the way; in some cases, the equipment having been bought; in some cases the individual having incurred a substantial financial coanitment which be will have to live with for aome time by the purcbaae of equipment and then at that point being told by the fo~eatry official that notwithatanding 2748

March 27 1 1974 Tape no. 902 Page 3 the fact that ODe department of government has given him $5,000, $6,000 or $81 000 or $10,000 to cut timber, not withstanding that, he is not able to get a permit to cut the timber on crown limits. Mr. Chairman, I would certainly like the minister to indicnte whether, in his opinion, this kind of example that I have mentioned is widespread so far as he is concerned or if it i• completely new to him or otherwise, if I have misunderstood. what he meant when he said the two agencies were working very closely together? MR. MA'YNARD: Mr.

Chairman, I have no reservations about saying that at the present time and for some months or for some period of time the Rural Development Authority and the forestT}' people 2749

March 27, 1974 Tape No. 903 NM - 1 · have been working toy,ehter. There may have been incidents in the initial star.es of the Rural Development Authority operation where there may not have been complete co-ordination between the two agencies. To the best of my knowledge, there is complete co-ordination between the two ~~encies at the present time. I have no doubt that there are~oing to be mistakes made by officials of the Rural Development Authority. I have no doubt there are going to be mistakes 1'1.ade by ~he officials of the Forest Service. I think that is a human element that we have to contend with.

But I would suggest to the honourable member that if it be·that serious he would produce specific examples and relate those to the actual percentage of loans that have been made for sawmill operations where there has been complete co-ordination. If he can produce specific examples and those examples amount to more than five per cent of the loans that have been made for sawmill operations then I will be willing to do a very thorough investigation into the whole matter. MR. !;!MMONS: I am not about to make any deals with the minister. Five per cent is a fairly high ~ercentage.

I do not care if it is only one half of one tenth of one percent, I am saying that if the alleged ''working very closely together" is not close enough, let us make it closer. I do not care what the percentages are. I do not care if there is only one loan that got .off the tracks as a result, I know there are more than one, but I am not making any bargains with the minister, I am just asking him to do his job. · 'MR. MAYNIJU>: Is he making charges? HR. S IMMJNS : Mr. Chairman, I am making charges.

I am charging that the minister is not telling the full story when he stands there and says that'the two are working very closely together. I am saying that there is evidence that the two are not working close together at all. He says, "Give evidence." Well,I will tell you why I cannot right now. HR. MAYNARD: Because he baa not got it. 2750

March 27, 1974 Tape No. 903 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, I have the evidence. AN HON. MEMBER: Then he should produce it. AN HON- MEMBF~: Inaudible. MR. ~ORGA.~: Stop making charges. It is ap,ainst the rules. NM - 2- ~. SIMMO~S: Mr. Chairman, I still have the floor. I still have the floor, ~r. Chairman. While I still have the floor I will pursue the point I was making a minute ago, the evidence I have _it certainly involves some confidences. I would li~e to check them out first.

In the. meantime, even without checking tbe confidences. as soon as I can get the list of loans involved, I have the.list I do not mean as soon as I can get them, I do not have them here with me presently, I shall be very happy to give . them to the minister. Mll.'!o!JRGAN: Inaudible. MR. WM. ROWE: I thought he was leaving. and leave? Why not do us a favour 1-IR. SIMKJNS : He did leave. Did you not know he has been away. Mr. Chairman, he has not been back. MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) - no proof. MR. SIM!-!>NS: You mean the member for Bonavista South is back. I did not notice him. Did anybody notice him? MR.

MORGAN: He . canriot prove it. MR. SIMMONS: I can prove that one. MR. CBAIR."IAN (MR. STAGG): Order please: The honourable member for Bonavista South has indeed ~ade his point on a couple of occasions now in interruptions of the member for Hermitage which are out of order. I ask him to desist. MR. SIM'ONS: Mr. Chai_rman, at one time I identified the member for Bonavista South as the - MR. CHAIJt~: Order please! The honourable member for Hermitage is called to the rule of relevancy. I suggest that his observation of the member for Bonavista South has very little to do with the head under discussion. lffi.. T-M.

ROWE: He has nothin~ to do with any head under discussion. at least nothing that would be allowed to be discussed. 2751

March 27, 1974 Ta-pe No. 903 11M - 3 • MR. SIM'-!ONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I shall make my observations . on the member at some other time. MR. MORGAN: On a point of order, the honourable gentleman has the floor and there is nobody interruptillf him on this side. The interruptions are coming from his own colleagues. Could we please have quiet in the House? ~- SIMMONS: Mr.

Chairman, as I was saying a few minutes a,:o,before ~he major addresses from the two members opposite, t~e Minister of Forestry and Agriculture and the member for Bonaviata South, the two most major contributions they made in this session so far, I was saying that the onus really is on government to put its money where its mouth is, to·- quote the minister or to quote him nearly accurately. I am prepared to do it. I am prepared to give the information and I shall. I shall give it where I believe it can accomplish most. If it be in this House I shall give it here. If it be to the minister I shall give it there.

If it be to the Minister of Rural Development I shall give it there, if I can find him. But I think the overriding concern so far as I am concerned is this, that there are RDA loans which have been granted to people who were subsequently unable to ,get timber permits and whose loaft ap~lications were not known to 2752

March 271 1974, Tape 904, Page 1 - apb two senior forestry officials in the area concerned at any time. Now that is a statement which I can substantiate and which I shall substantiate, Tuo related points, Mr. Chairmanl I vould be much more impressed with the minister in his performance of h~s duties if he dwelt less on calling bluffs, whether mine or somebody elses,and more on seeing that what he asserted is indeed true.

If he were so conv:1,nced that the two agencies, RDA and Forestry,are working closer together, if I were in his shoes I would see to it that that statement if not completely accurate now would become accurate. I would not waste my time trying to call person's bluffs, I would go out and I would fin~ out. If he ahould · want to £ind out from me,I shall certainly give him the names of the loan applicants involved. I would suggest to him that he go out and find out if there have been breakdowns instead of adopting this overly protective attitude, this idea that somehow everything has to be right all the time.

Of course I can see, I understand that there are going to be errors but whether they should be five per cent or ten per cent I am not willing to say that five per cent ia not bad, I would say any number, any number. One such error is bad if it could have been avoided, ten thousand errors are not bad if they could not have been avoided. I am not prepared to deal; with the minister in terms of perc ·entages I would rather that he dealt with the realities and if there are some problems, that ia understandable.

To dismiss a five per cent or to dismiss some as not being important is not good enough and I would ask him to look a little more closely into thi• and see if his statement on working closer together is indeed as accurate as he asserts it to be. I hope for his sake and for the sake of the progr8l11111e that it is quite accurate but I have evidence to convince me otherwise at the moment. MR. CHAiR.MAN: MR. W.N.ROWE: Shall Head XII, Forestry, carry? In a moment or so, Mr. ChaiTIDan. I must say, Sir, that generally on the minister's estimates 2753 ·I

March 27, 1974, Tape 904, Page 2 - apb a very disappointing performance, Sir, on the part of that honourable minister. Yesterday ve put through thie House Supplementary Supply in which there were on• or two embarrassing things. The Minister of Tourism, for example, handled it with dignity and in a gentlemanly faahion. MR, CHAIRMAN: Order pleue! The honourable member is apparently going to get into the history of what we did yesterday and other matters and .certainly it ia not relevant to this particular head, Does the honourable member wiah to make some observation? I speak to the honourable Member for Hermitage.

MR, SIMMONS: What did you ay, Mr. -Chairman? MR. CBAIBMAN: Does the honourable gentleman wish to make IIOllle observation about the Chair'• ruling? MR.. SD!MONS: Hot at all. When I do.I shall. MR. ·v.N.ROWE: What is the problem, Sir? Has a ..i,er of the Bouse - MR. SDH>NS: I looked at him the wrong way I think. MR. lW.N.ROWE: What is the Chairman doing? Reflecting on some ; clunking noise limit? MR.. 'CHAIRMAN: Order pleaae! MR. W.N.ROWE: I am a member of this Bouse, Mr, Chairman, and I want to know what was going on. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please! ~f the honourable member vant an explanation he shall get it.

A$ I was making.., ruling ~•rd the honourable !!ember for White Bay South who vaa liatening in hia usual courteous manner, I heard what I interpreted aa a derogatory, either remark or a noise from the honourable Melnber for Bend.t~ge and I asked if he wished.to make an observation. MR. SIMMONS: I think, Mr. Chairman, in view of your charge that I am entitled to know what the derogatory remark vu you think you heard, I am entitled to know it and 1 would ask you to repe•t what you think you heard. MR. CHAIR)lf..AN: The honourable Member for White lay South: MR.

W.N.ROWE: As a member of this House,and I think it probably 2754

March 27, 1974, Tape 904, Page 3 -- apb affects the privileges of the House, what was Your Honour referring to when you referred to my colleague the Member for Hermitage? I would like to know as a member of the House as I might .be guilty of doing it sometime. When I was listening to Your Honour I heard a clucking sound from the Member for Het'?I'itage. I did not attribute it to what Your Honour had to say.

It might have been coincidental, it might have had something to do with what Your Honour was saying but I certainly want to .know for my own future guidance what so outraged Your Honour as to rise to your feet and chastise my colleague like a kindergarten schoolchild? I think it is a matter that does affect the privileges of this House and I would like an explanation if Your Honour is so disposed. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member has gotten all the explana~ion he is going to get on this matter. I suggest he move on to Head XII, Forestry and Agriculture which we are discussing. MR.

SIMMONS : On a point of personal privilege, Mr. Chairman. I did not utter any derogatory remark. You may have heard something but I did not utter any derogatory remark whatsoever. I want to make that crystal clear. I have also now learned that "Twitting" is unparliamentary. MR. CHAIRMAN: On motion Head XII, Fore~try, carried. MR. W.N.ROWE: No it is not carried. I am sorry, Sir, on the order and the ruling that you made a little earlier, surely it is relevant for me to compare what is going on here today with other things. That is the only thing I was doing.

I was comparing the performa~ce of this honourable minister with the performance of another honourable minister. Whether that happens to be ancient history, future or present, it is I would suggest, Sir, largely relevant. Surely one can compare things with what is under discussion. What 1 was saying was that I was very disappointed at the honourable minister's performance compared to certain other ministers in this House. We have been going on with his estimates .now for the last 2755

March 27, 1974, Tape 904, Page 4 - apb hour and a-half or two hours, I do not know, and most of the rreason . . l>eing because of the arrogance of that honourable minister .. A member stlands in the House and makes a statement and he will look down at the minister and he is grinning like a jackanapes. You do not know whether he is taking you seriously or whether he is laugb:lng at you or ignoring you or what it is, Mr. Chairman. MR.. MARSHALL : Grimacing. MR. W.N.ROWE: Not grimacing, grinning. Sneering might be another way to characterize the actions, physical visage of the honourable ainiater. 2756 •· ..

March 27, 1974 -.rape 9U::> rr.. - ,.. He will not treat anything seriously. Re is coming dangerously close, I do not say he is but he is coming dang~rously close to misleading members of this House with regard to the Task Force Reporti Having uttered in this House a definite undertaking to table that report, he now gets up and with weasel words says things like, "Well if it i  my colleagues, if the goverment allows it " or11 unless the government have changed its mind, " all this sort of a thing. Having made a definite coumitment to this House, he is now coming dangerously close to mis­ leading the House, Mr.

Chairman. Raise the matter of the public money being spent on advertising and all you get back from him is no explanation of any kind. It is a sort of a sense of pride emitted from the honourable minister on the fact that this government are lashing out hundreds of thousands of dollars for useless purpose. _ My colleague the Member for Hermitage gets up and makes what was indeed a valid and legitimate point. What do we get? Low, crude, humour of a personal type from the honourable minister. All I can say,. .Mr. Chairman, is that the ministers do not have to accept any advice.

I mentioned to the honourable House Leader and the Minister of Finance as did the Leader of the Opposition that we have no desire to prolong debate on these interim measures we are debating today. But if we stand in this honourable House and get nothing but arrogance and contempt for serious questions and grinning and snearing back and forth across the House, Mr. Chairman, it does nothing which is conducive t~ a good debate in this House. If the honourable minister want to make a whip for his ovn back let him do it.

I give him notice now that when the - I do not intend to pursue this but as one member of the House and I am sure my colleagues share the view that if he or any other minister gets up and does not take members of this House seriously, does not take legitimate and valid points seriously, well it is going to go hard on him, Mr. Chairman, particularly in the main estimates. I am not trying to,obviously,foolishly trying to intimidate or threaten or blackmail the minister. All I am saying is that if I ask 2757

M&Tch 27, 1974 Tape 905 PK - 2 a ques~ion in this House ninety-nine per cent of the time I mn serious in that question unless it is obviously facetious. To have that question treated with contempt and to have a minister trying to avoid, continuously avoid giving information and to have him snearing and grinning over there across the House is not going to be very satisfactory to me as a member of the House.

I do hope when the main ·estimates come through this Hou~e or are brought down by the Minister of Finance, the minister treats bis position, a high position in Newfoundland, treats it with a little bit of respect and dignity and that he brings to his office something besides arrogance and vacant pride and lack of seriousness. I hope it brings seriousness to his office when his estimates come through and some dignity and some respect for the high office which he holds. AN HON, MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Chairman, I have some questions that I would like to direct to the minister.

First of all, in relation to what we are calling the paid advertising programme, what he is calling the public information programme,and since we all know what we are talking about, would he indicate to the co111111ittee whether it is the intention of his department or government to pursue, to have additional public inforTAation programme, paid information programmes on television in the foreseeable future concerning the forestry progra1111te? MR. MAYNARD: No, Mr. Chairman, it is not our intentions to have any additional programme in the immediate future or in the future. period, as far as I am concerned.

On motion Head XII - Forestry and Agriculture, carried. Head II - LEGISLATIVE, $400,000. HON. J.C. CROSBIE: (MINISTER PF FINANCE): it, Mr. Chairman:' MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. CROSBIE: Yes, it is carried. Well that is wonderful, Number one is carried is The breakdown of this $400,000 is the Auditor General's Department as included under Legislative and the staff of the House,of course that is $115,000 in salaries. Travelling for the Auditor General!s Department 2758

March 27, 1974 Tape 905 PIC - 3 is $20,000. $265,000. Travelling and allowances for members of the House is of Hay. We are hoping.I presume.that the Rouse will end by the end Anyway that is why it is in there. That is a total of $400,000. On motion Head II - Legislative, carried. Head III - _EXE_~.~IVJ; _~O_lrnGlt, $350.i_Q()Q. MR . CHAIR.'iAN : The Hon. the Minister of Finance. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, the Executive Council includes the Lieutenant- Governor's establishment.

I do not know haw much of a breakdown you want but it is $21,667 . in salaries and the expenses for his establishment are $2,418; expenses in other departments $11,000. That is $35,000. The Premier's office salaries, $33,000 and then some money for travelling in the offices, $11,000; expenses in other departments $3,300. That is $48,000. . Executive Council Office and the Cabinet Secretariate; salaries $31,000. Now that secretariate, Mr. Chairman, includes the Planning and Priorities Secretariate. Mr. David Mercer is the Director of the Secretariate.

Resource Policy Committee - the ~ovemment's Services Policy Co11D11ittee and the Social Servic~s Policy. AN HON. MEMBER: Does the Treasury Board come under that? MR. CROSBIE: Yes, and Treasury Board. Treasury Board is separa~e here. These are the three committees included under that - $3,600 is allowed for travelling office, c~r allowance, commuter services; $41,000 for the Classification Appeals Board; $5,200 expenses voted in other departments for that group. That is $44,000 total. 2759

March 27, 1974 Tape 906 IB-1 the treasury board secretariate, salaries, $95,000. That includes of course the personnel and administration division, collective bargaining and the other personnel there. Expenses, $6,600 is allowed tor that, travelling, office computer. The total is $101,000 and - wait now, 1 made a mistake there, sorry. The one that 1 said was $44,000 is the executive council office and cabinet secretariate, Now, that is Mr. Channing's people and the cabinet secretariate. The Planning and Priorities Committee secretariate which I described before those three cOlllllllttees and Mr.

Dave Mercer and so on is $93,000. There is $26,000 expenses, computer services, $15,000. The reason for the large amount there is that the economic and statistics branch is moved up there also now and the fiscal policy division which used to be in the Department of Finance is there. Mr. Cyril Avery is the director of the Committee on lntergcwernmental Affairs. So, that gives a total of $120,000 and. the total altogether is $350,000. HR. W. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, clid anybody ever take the place of Dr. Stu Peters as special adviser or learned expert or whatever he was in the Premier's office? MR. CROSBIE: No one, Mr.

Chairman, could take his place. HR. W. ROWE: So, they left the office vacant. In that way they took his l)lace. MR.. CROSBIE: Yes, I think that is the right word. 0a motion Head 3 carried. Bead 4, Finance, $650,000. MR. CROSBIE: ~Finance, Mr. Chairman, _is: Salaries, $340,000; Travelling, $40,000; Postage, $70,000; Ex Gratia paymeats, $140,000, these are pension payments and so on made ex gratia; Miscellaneous, $60,000. On motion Head 4, Finance,carried. l!_ead 5, Man_power and -Industrial Relations, $300,9..Q.Q• MR. ROUSSEAU: If I may before, 1 have a reply to the honourable member's 2760

March 27, 1974 Tape 906 question of today but I do not think that I can reply to it in committee so I will wait until tomorrow.I presume at the beginnin~ 1 to r~~ly. AN HONOURARLE ME~ER: Inaudible. IB-2 MR. ROUSSEAU: May I by leave? First of all I would like to make it abundantly clear that, as was mentioned before, the item is not in my Department of ~anpower and Industrial Relations.so that I was completely uninformed because of course it just appeared in the paper today and it had nothing to do with our department aa such with either manpower or public works. I did undertake to phone the deputy lllinister, Mr.

McCarthy, and there was a meeting held this morning. The meeting was purely exploratory. The federal government officials who met with Mr. McCarthy - since the fire protection of the province comes under the jurisdiction ~f Justice and not Manpower and Industrial Relations, we were not involved in the meeting but the meeting did go ahead and Mr. McCarthy suggested to me that the federal people said that he had assured, or the federal people had assured these twenty-eight employees that they would be taken care of.

Now, whether to their satisfaction or not, that I do not know but the meeting this morning was purely.and solely preliminary and exploratory. The federal are going back and they expect to come down in two or three months time - I do not know what it is - and talk to Justice again and at a time when some basis of understanding is there. Actual negotiations, serious negotiations will be carried out but that is not forseen to be within two to three months. So, I give that answer to that question. Of course the question is entered to me.

I would think of my colleague, the honourable ~inister of Justice,for future reference unless of course we were asked in Human Rights and there was anything there to become involved in it,but we do ~ot initiat