Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 41A (32nd Legislature, 3rd Session)

32-3-41a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 41A - 2:00 p.m., TUESDAY, 12 JUNE, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political AHiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER,Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS,Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER,Hon.Y� SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Mlnnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Bonif ace Aiel Elm wood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin- Russell St. Norbert Assinlboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mount ain Burrows Rossmere lnk ster Fort Garry Os borne River Heights Flin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP IND NDP NDP NDP NDP IND NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 12 June, 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLJNG: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce a new joint effort between the City of Winnipeg and my department for Dutch Elm Disease control.

The new Elm Guard Program will be run as a pilot project in the Armstrong Point, Wildwood, Wolseley and Crescentwood Homeowner Association districts. Volunteer groups and co-ordinators have been organized and will begin the program immediately. Weekly reports will be sent to foresters who will investigate suspicious trees. I believe that the key to Dutch Elm disease control lies in making Manitobans aware of the symptoms. As the Elm guard volunteers go through neighbourhoods , they will be distributing information pamphlets.

The more Manitobans that become involved with Elm guard the more eyes we will have on our elms. Early detection of Dutch Elm Disease will prevent further outbreaks. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I find it interesting how these people are going to investigate suspicious trees.

I want to say to the Minister that I think any movement in regard to the Elm guard is appreciated, but I want to caution the Minister that I've had some involvement with some of the programs that have been in place in the past where people went out and investigated diseased Elm trees and had them subse quently removed and this is always in people's yards, and out in the rural areas as well. I would encourage the Minister to possibly look along the natural river banks, specifically the Rat River area where some of these examples happen, where people in the Village of St.

Pierre had to have their trees removed, beautiful trees, supposedly diseased, and I have no argument with that, but what happens, just outside of the organized area along the river banks there's many trees that are diseased that are not being treated at all or removed at all.

As a result, many of the people that have had these trees, had them for many many years, are part of the yard system, and what bothers me and bothers the people is that this outside of the organized yards and homes, the government isn't doing anything to control the disease. lt creates a little bit of a suspicion that we're picking out only the suspicious trees in people's yards when there are many areas along the natural river banks, as I indicated before, that should receive attention as well. If you have diseased trees along the natural river banks, the disease keeps spreading anyway.

If we keep on removing the trees in the organized areas, I think we're sort of missing the beat a little bit and l·would encourage the Minister to possibly look at that aspect as well. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery. We have 30 adults of the Golden Age Club from Main Street under the direction of Mrs. Olfman. The club is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Johns.

There are 45 students of Grade 6 standing from the MacGregor Elementary School under the direction of Miss Karmam and Mr. Long. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Gladstone. There are 16 students of Grade 8 standing from Ontario, the Hornepayne Public School under the direction of Mr. Burnett. There are 18 students of Grades 5 and 6 standing from the St. Gerard School under the direction of Mrs. Joseph. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Elmwood. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

ORAL QUESTIONS Legislation - appearance of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Government House Leader. I wonder if he could indicate how many more pieces of legislation · he intends to introduce to this House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do not expect that there will be any change in the totals I predicted to the House several times during the last month.

I believe most of the legislation has now either been introduced or is on the notice paper and approximately two-thirds of that has already been distributed. 1857

1Und8y, 12 June, 1984 Hydro power - sale of MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Energy and Mines. We in the opposition, of course, have received so little information with respect to the negotiations that he and his department are carrying on with our neighbours to the south with respect to power sales. I ask him, specifically, in the negotiations that he's carrying on with Northern States Power, is there a diversity agreement being proposed?

That is, we're aware of the announc ement about the sale of Manitoba firm power to the United States, is a similar reciprocity agreement being talked about that utility provi ding power changes to us? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, the diversity will be provided through the MANDAN line. That is how the diversity is being dealt with. At present, diversity is not being negotiated with Northern States Power. MR. H. ENNS: I thank the Minister for that answer.

Just to have it on the record, there is no diversity agreement in the Northern States Power currently being negotiated. lt is being pursued though with respect to the MANDAN line. Cost of smelter to ratepayers MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Minister of Energy and Mines. Will he confirm that in order to lure the world's, America's largest, aluminum producer to establish an aluminum smelting capacity here in Manitoba, that Manitoba taxpayers will be asked to pay out $4 out of every $5 to establish that smelter in Manitoba? HON. W. PARASIUK: No, Mr.

Speak er, I can't understand the arithmetic of the Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister confirm that Manitoba taxpayers and our Manitoba Hydro ratepayers, which are one and the same thing, will have to put up all of the up-front money of the $3 billion should Limestone have to be reactivated, and are being asked to contribute an additional half or 50 percent of the proposed aluminum smelter which, when put together, represents $4 out of every $5 to lure the largest aluminum smelter in the world to come to Manitoba? lt's being talked about as the sweetheart deal of the century on the streets and the business community in this province. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, that shows the incred ible diff erence between the Conservative Party and the New Democratic Party Government. The Conservatives would give away, Mr. Speaker, the Hydro reso urce and have other people own it for generations to · come. We believe that the Hydr o resource of Manitoba will lead to tremendous benefits for the people of Manitoba, will provide significant profits to the people of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, tho se profits should be kept within the Province of Manitoba. If we have a publi cly-owned hydro system, Mr.

Speaker, for which we can pay and provide sign ificant profits for economic development or other development in the province, as we will be able to do because it is owned by the public, we believe that is the best thing that can happen for Manitoba. We have confidence in Manitoba Hydro; we have confidenc e In that resource, and we believe that it can lead to the long-term betterment of Manitoba if it is preserved, and its integrity is preserved, and if the resources are preserved for the people of Manitoba for their use today and for the future. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, Manitobans have enjoyed the profits of A.E. McKenzie Seeds Company for the last number of years, of Flyer, and of various other ventures that this government - Saunders Aircraft to mention another one. We understand what those profits and tho se benefits, how they accrue to Manitobans, not to speak of the King Choy food plants, Mr. Speaker, of yesteryear. I just want to ask the Minister one question. Can he give the undertaking that Manitoba taxpayers, Manitoba Hydro ratepayers, will not be asked to accelerate their costs of energy to facilitate the incompetent deals that he is now negotia ting? HON.

W PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, let the people of Manitoba be reassured that they .will receive a far better deal from those und ertakings that we are negotiating than what they would have received from a Conservative Government. If he is so against those possible developments, Mr. Speaker, because he is clearly on the record as being against them now, why didn't he raise those questions with respect to the negotiations that they were conducting some three or four years ago? Mr. Speaker, his negativism surprises me, because the people of Manitoba want those energy developments.

We will go out and find out this summer when we talk to the business community as to whether, in fact, they want them. They have told us to date that they want them, because they believe, Mr. Speaker, that we do have the lowest unem ployment rate in the count ry, that we can build from that. We on this side have confiden ce in that, Mr. Speaker, we want to ensure that we achieve it. They are the negative people, they want to make sure that we don't achieve it, and the people will have a good chance to choose between a positive approach on this side and a negative approach on that side, Mr.

Speaker, and I believe they'll choose wisely. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary question.

I simply ask the Minister to confirm that this government refused to deal with a Canadian company that was prepared to put up 10 0 percent of the cost of buil ding an $800 mi llion aluminum smelter in Manitoba and, furthermore, help us and put up front the money of the power that they were going to use, some additional half-billion dolla rs and that's all they were going to do, not buy Manitoba Hydro, at no cost to the Manitoba taxpayer we could have had an aluminum smelter with the necessary power sou rce there ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. 1858

MR. H. ENNS: . . . will this Minister confirm . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. H. ENNS: . . . that the . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member is aware that questions offer information and should not be argumen tative. If the honourable member has a question, would he please pose it? The Honou rable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, a simple question. America, the world's largest multi national, is only interested in coming in Manitoba if we build half the plant for them and if we take all the risks of spending the $2 billion of providing the power source for them.

That's the deal we're negotiating. MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. H. ENNS: These people can't run a peanut stand, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I'm not sure if there was, in fact, a question. The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Lakeside is so apoplectic about the good news that the New Democratic Party Government is bringing Manitobans, that he is acting in a rather strange behaviour and, surprisingly, trying to paint something that is so positive for Manitoba in such a negative light. We, on this side, Mr.

Speaker, would not sell a Hydro plant or a portion of it because we believe that would ruin the way in which Manitoba Hydro would operate in the future. They, in fact, were prepared not to let a company put up front money, but they were prepared to privatize a part of Manitoba Hydro, not only from them but with other compan ies as well. That is the Conservative giveaway. We in contrast, Mr. Speaker, believe that the Hydro resource which is a renewable resource . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. W. PARASIUK: . . . can last the people of Manitoba virtually into infinity.

Because it's such a valuable resource, it should be kept for all the people of Manitoba. We are prepared on a rental basis, to look for power contracts with lnco, which we've done with lnco; to look for it with Alcoa; to look for it with Alcan, with all people, because we believe that's how the long-term development of - (Interjection) - Mr.

Speaker, I'm hearing this man shriek from his seat and I feel sorry for him, that he can't join with the people of Manitoba and rejoice in the good news that we have and look at the positive aspects and go out and talk to the business companies and say, let's all be part of this, let the workers be part of this, let's in fact build a better Manitoba . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. W. PARAS IUK: . . . Mr. Speaker, we on this side want to carry that out despite the obstructionist negativism of the mem bers on the other side. Mr. Speaker, the people can choose who are the better developers for this province.

Bankruptcies of farmers MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture. In view of the fact that we've seen a 50 percent increase in the numbers of farm bankruptcies in the first quarter of this year, will the Minister confirm that this is only the tip of the iceberg and, in fact, there are many other hundr eds of farmers that aren't declaring official bankruptcy but are just automatically closing out and shutting down their farm operations?

Can the Minister confirm that this is only the tip of the iceberg and that there are many others as well going out of business that are unregistered? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, there's no doubt that any bankruptcies in the business commu nity, whether it be in small business or in farming, is a concern to this government, and the increase from 18 to 27, which is the 50 percent that the honourable member speak of is that. Of course it is of great concern to us and I'm sure that there are other farmers who are in difficulty.

Some of the general surveys that we have done within the department show us farmers, generally in the grain related areas of farming, are the ones that have been hardest hit. As the member well knows, Manitoba is not the only province experiencing difficult ies in bankruptcies, the Province of Alberta had a 56 percent increase in bankruptcies for the same period. British Colum bia, 55 percent; Quebec, 100 percent increase for the same periods from the year before. All those are of concern and all those have developed over a number of years, they didn't start overnight, Sir.

Part of the problem is that short-sighted governments were not prepared to invest in the income stability of the farm community and, Mr. Speaker, part of the difficulty that we face is as a result of very negative governments who, when farmers came for long-term inc ome stabilization to those governments, they basically said, see the door. They said that to the beef community; they said that to the hog communit y. We have made long-term commitments and I admit that, even though it is the most money that any government in the history of this province has put into agriculture, for many it will not be enough. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, it's interesting to note the selective figures the Minister is using. Can the Minister confirm that the actual rate of bankruptcies in Manitoba is 58.3 percent, compared to a national average of 42 percent, and a Saskatchewan failure rate, where there is a Conservative Government doing something for the farm communi ty, of a 27.2 percent? Will the Mini ster come clean and tell the story totally as it is, not use selective figures, Mr. Speaker? HON. B. URUSKI: I want to tell the honourable member that I am quoting figures from the farm bankruptcy 1859

TundaJ, 12 June, 1184 statistics that my colleague, the Minister responsible for the Statistics Branch, gets from Federal . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Minister. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member should be aware that there is a Conservative Govern ment in Al berta and their in cr ease in bankru ptcies are from 16 to 25 for a 56.3 percent increase. You have a P.Q.

Government in Quebec where there is an increase from 33 to 66, 100 percent increase in bankrupt cies; you have a Socred Government in British Columbia where there are increases - who are basically Conservative - from 55.5. In Saskatchewan, there is an increase - the figures that I have - of less than 20 percent increase in the Provin ce of Saskatchewan. Part of the difficulty is that the Province of Saskatchewan inherited a number of Income Stabilization Programs that did and was able to protect many of the farmers there, Sir . A MEMBER: Under an NDP Government. HON. B. URUSKI: . . . and from an NDP Government.

They were prepared to invest in the long-term future of their farmers. This was not done here. Alm ost a third of the hog producers ceased production over a two-year period in the slump, until the Government of the Day decided to bring in Income Stabil izati on. The MCPA, the Cattle Produc ers Association came to this government and said, help us out. What did that gentleman say to them? Do you see the door? Help yourself, boys. The free marketplace is what we subscribe to. You can live through the free marketplace. That's the kind of support that they gave to the farm communit y, Sir.

There is no doubt that many of the farm community are in difficulty, and we have pressed the Federal Government for changes in the funda mental income stabilization plan, the Western Grain Stabilization Plan. We were the only province, Sir, to make concrete representations to the Federal Commi ttee on Agr icultur e for massive changes in the Gr ain Stabilization Plan, Sir. That is one of the areas that there is great need for income stability, because our grain farmers have to compete on the world market. lt is in this area that they need the greatest stabilization. Canadian Wheat Board prices MR. J.

DOWNEY: I have a further question. I have to, first of all, indicate though, that it's pretty cold comfort to those farmers in Manitoba who are closing out and being forced out of business to just show them the statistics from other provinces, Mr.

Speaker, and a lack of action by this government. lfl view of the fact that this government to now blame it all on the Federal Government, was the Minister of Agriculture able to encou rage the Federal Government to maintain the Canadian Wheat Board initial prices at the same level as they are now and not have them reduce that level of initial payment coming up at the beginning of August? When in Ottawa, did he take the time and did he attempt to and did he accomplish the maintaining of the Canadian Wheat Board prices that the farm co mmunity such as Manitoba Pool have requested? Did he accom plish that, Mr.

Speaker? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, what we did attempt, which would have been far more beneficial to the farmers of Western Canada, is to save the Crow rate. Mr. Speaker, for Manitoba farmers alone, it means an additional payment of $50 million a year in inco me lost out of the Province of Manitoba. The Honourable Member for Arthur, when he was Minister, was prepared as was his Premier to send the Crow rate down the tube. 1t was their federal party that brought in the current Deputy Minister who set the stage to get rid of the Crow, Sir.

Whether it be a Liberal administration or a Conservative adminis tration, the Crow was gone in Ottawa, albeit - (Interjection) - well, Mr. Speaker, the honourable members don't want to ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Minister. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, one of the greatest problems that farmers have faced, and I repeat what I said yesterday, is the impact of high Interest rates. lt was that admini stration that said high interest rates were what this country needed.

That's one of the greatest problems that farmers - you go and talk to any farmer who is in difficulty - it was the high interest rates and the high borrowing that got them into the difficulty they have. Now with the lack of income, suggestions coming from a party who espoused the free and open marketplace, Sir, I find their suggestions of government intervention in the marketp lace somewhat hollow, because it is members of that side of the House, Sir, who espoused the open market. Mining fatalities MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Mem ber for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Attorney-General about the recent inquests which have been held in regard to the mining fatalities at the the lnco Mine in Thompson.

In view of the fact that the lag between the accidents and the calling of the hearings was seven and nine months respectively in two particular cases; and in view of the fact that both union and management officials have expressed concern about the delays in calling these hParings, I would like to ask the Attorney-General whether he would review the delays with the Director of Prosecu tions and the other involved officials with a view of having those inqu iries called more quickly after the accidents? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: Yes, I will undertake to do that; that is to review the si tuation with the Director of Prosecution s who is now the Assistant Deputy, and with the Chief Medical Examiner. Whatever steps can 1860

n..aday, 1.2 June, 1984 be taken to reduce the time between fatality and inquest will certainly be taken. MR. S. ASHTON: As a supplementary, Mr. Speaker, I would just ask, in view of the fact that a Mines Department official indicated that it only takes six weeks to prepare the official reports in regard to any mining fatality, whether it might not be possible to have those fatality inquir ies called within two or three months? HON. R. PENNER: Well, there are rather variables that will have to be looked at.

One, of course, is the availability of a provincial judge; and secondly, the availability of a Crown Attorney to conduct the fatality inquir y. In a centre like Thompson that ought not to be a great difficulty because of the availability of both on a regular basis, but it may present some difficulties in other remote areas where we don't have a Crown Attorney or a provincial judge present at all times. Certainly, whatever steps can be taken will be taken to shorten the length of time between fatality and inquiry, and I would think that the suggestion of two or three months is not an unreasonable one.

Co- operative Curriculum MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I add ress my question to the Minister of Education. Last week, the Minister of Co-operative Affairs tabled and gave to my colleague, · the Member for Roblin Russell, a copy of the Co-operative Curriculum which is now to be available and offered within the public school system. I would ask the Minister of Education what subject this curriculum is to be included in and in what grades will it be offered within the public school system? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, the Co-operative Curriculum has been integrated into the social studies curriculum and it is being taught in Grades 3 and 5 of the social studies curriculum; Grades 9, 10 and 11 deal with co-operative curriculum. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I read some of the outline material in the hi story of co-operative development within Canada. I find it interesting that no mention is made of the fact that early co-operatives, and particularly agricultural co-operatives, came into being strictly to make the free enterprise system work better. I would ask ... SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. C.

MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, ob viously the members opposite don't understand that. Mr. Speaker, can the Min ister tell us why this curriculum has not made mention of that fact at all anywhere through the introductory aspects of the curriculum? HON. M. HE MPHILL : Mr.

Speak er, perhaps it's important to just give a little bit of information about the process we did go through in developing this curriculum because we took about three years to do it, and developed a curriculum with what is recognized by the Science - I think the Member for Morris quoted the Science Council Report in a previous question so he is impressed by the information they put out. They have suggested that Manitoba's curriculum development model is one of the best in the country and they have asked other provinces to . . .

So we have taken one of the best methods of curriculum development which involves social studies teachers and takes a long period of time, goes out into the field, gets information from the co-operative department and developed an excellent curriculum. lt is being recogn ized and has been tested and evaluated by the Ontario Council for the OISE which is one of the best research departments in the country for educational research. They say this is excellent material, excellent curriculum.

I would like to make an offer to the Member for Morris, and that is to say that we take information and feedback from anybody, including the education critic and the Member for Morris. I would be glad to set up a meeting with members of my department where he can provide the information that he thinks about deficiencies in the curriculum because we are always changing and revising and we will take his recommendations seriously. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for that kind offer, I appreciate it very much. My final supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Minister whether she has reviewed the new Co-operative Curriculum and can she tell us - I am picking out specific subjects here, particularly a comment about an ethnic graphic pie, a visit to a graveyard, Page 9, and a focus on sex roles, Page 12, further on in the curriculum - what this has to do with the development and the training of the co-operative movement within this province to our school children? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, it's a little bit difficult to respond. There are about 600 pages of curriculum materials that he is quoting from and, clearly, this is not the forum.

If he wants to go into that kind of detail it requir es setting up a meeting and going over the detail with him. I think that what he is referring to is simulation exercises that teach co-operation. I can tell you that anything that teaches our childr en better co operation in any area the better off this world is going to be. Driver testing - cutbacks on staff MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Minister of Highways in charge of the Manitoba Motor Vehicle Branch, and I would ask him if he could inform the House whether his department has cut back on staff that are doing driver testing. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe we have. This was discussed in detail during Estimates 1861

TueedaJ, 12 June, 1884 and the Highway critic had all the information there. I don't believe there has been a cutback in actual driver testers. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could confirm that people In centres, such as Steinbach, are lining up at six o'clock in the morning hoping to receive a driver test that day, and that the appointment book in Steinbach, for instance, to receive a driver's test is full now till some time in the middle of August. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, I will certainly look into that problem.

I know the honour able member mentioned, as I explained clearly during the Estimates process, that appointments are the best way to arrange for driver tests, rather than lining up. However, if there is a lineup, if there is no time for appointments at Steinbach, I will look into that. Traffic lights - Whitemud River HON. J. PLOHMAN: I want to at this time, Mr.

Speaker, also provide an answer to a question that was taken as notice by myself from the Member for Virden last week when he asked why traffic lights were being installed at two bridges on Highway 16, how much they cost and how much it would have cost to hire students to act as flag perso ns, I would expect, instead of putting in traffic lights. I just want to provide the honourable member with the answer to that. The two bridges are in the neighbourhood of $300,000 for the two bridges, which invo lve redec king and changing the guardrails on those bridges.

The cost of the installation of the lights is $1 0,000.00. Now that is about 3 percent of the total cost of the project . lt is estimated that, and I think the honourable member overlooked this when he was asking the question, flag people would have had to have been out there 24 hours a day and would have requi red illumination during the night time. If we would have had flag persons out for the dur ation of the period of construct ion, Mr. Speaker, it would have cost about $70,000.00. So we are looking at about a 7-1 factor there. I want to thank the honour able member, Mr.

Speaker, for taking an Interest in job creation. lt's good to see that when something is workin g, it's a typical "me too" attitude of the opposition that they are interested in job creation after they see the lowest unemployment rate In the province and they want to get on the bandwagon, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary question to the Honour able Minister. Since he seems to be concerned about the cost, he mentioned $10,000, was that per light for installation? At the same time, he was concerned about the cost of flagmen.

Has the Minister given any consideration at all to the cost, the inconvenience to people that are using the highway? Is he allowing them to work 24 hours a day and the weekend, seeing as how the bridge is protected by barriers, in any event, or are they allowed only to work eight hours a day, five days a week? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Hig hways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: The first question, Mr.

Speaker, dealing with the cost of the lights, that is for the cost of all of the lights for both bridges, both locations, to both put them in place and take them down after construction has taken place, that is the total cost of $10,000.00. The normal procedures are In place with regard to reconstruction on those bridges, as is the case and has been the case for many years, with regard for redecking and changing and construction on major routes. The same procedures would be followed as they have in the past. MR. H. GRAHAM: A final supplementary.

From the answer of the Honourable Minister of Highways, then we can assume that it will take three months before traffic will normally be allowed to use those bridges, rather than three weeks, if they went full-bore with the work. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Speaker, they're taking into consideration the practical concerns with regard to traffic and so on, as well as the overal l costs and, of course, the honourable member again is speaking out of both sides of his mouth when he wants, on one hand, to have us paying overtime and, on the other hand, saying that we should be saving money when we're talking in Estima tes and tha t Is typical of the opposition's situation there. I want to just point out that the traffic lights also provide greater flexibility in working on both sides at one time, Mr.

Speaker, as well as better traffic control and they do not require additional lighting that the flagpersons would require. I think the honou rable member would be interested in knowing that, as he was suggesting that we use flagpersons on that job. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. Has the Honourable Minister of Hig hways completed his answer? The Honou rable Member for La Verendrye. Driver testing - cutbacks on staff MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary to the question I asked some 10 minutes ago. I wonder, Mr.

Speaker, to the same Minister, since many people in southeastern Manitoba rely heavily on their driver's licence for a means of livelihood, and since many truck drivers have to upgrade their licences because of different government restrictions, would the Minister be willing to meet with the Mayor and Council of the Town of Stein bach to discuss the establishment of a full-time driver-testing station in Steinbach so it can serve the people of southeastern Manitoba and allow people to go ahead and not be held up with the time problems and also the loss of dollars when they have to take off from work and then can't get tested.

HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, we'd have to look at the demand requirements in those communities and, of course, as an open government - l.think the Minister of Government Services probably expressed it best when he talked about an open-door policy that our 1862

........., 12 June, 111M government has. Certainly all of the Ministers have that and we are interested in meeting with any delegations at all times, whenever they can be scheduled. There's no doubt that we're interested in meeting. let me say, as well, that I haven't had any complaints with regard to the Steinbach area, with regard to line ups. Certainly, there are no-line ups in the Dauphin area and I don't think any staffing changes have taken place in that area or in the Dauphin area and we haven't had any complaints there, Mr.

Speaker, so I would ask him to ask the individuals that are concerned with the timing with regard to testing if they would come forward and raise them with me or send me a letter or call and I will be pleased to deal with them. Core Area - resignation of General Manager MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of labour. HON. M.B. DOLIN: As Minister of Urban Affairs, I would like to answer a question that I took as notice on the 8th of June from the Member for Kirkfield Park. lt was with regard to the Core Area and the new general manager that will have to be appointed for the Core Area.

The question had to do with the selection committee and I am pleased to report to the member that the management committee of the Core Area is acting as the initial review committee for the selection of a new general manager. That management committee, of course, consists of representation from the city, the province and the Federal Government. Mr. Nick Diakiw from the city, he's the city's Chief Commissioner; Cliff Mackie from the Federal Government, who of course works with DREE; and Peter Diamond from the Provincial Government, he's Deputy Minister of Urban Affairs.

Once they have reviewed the applications they will recommend to policy committee which are the political members, of course, of the group and a selection will be made . Sports hunting regulations MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Natural Resources. lt appears that new sports hunting regulations are being contemplated by the Minister, for example, a 300-yard hunting restriction along developed roads, uniform blaze-orange uniforms and carrying guns in cases.

Can the Minister indicate whether he is contemplating bringing in these kinds of regulations for the coming season? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: I thank the honourable member for the question. lt is true that I have had extensive meetings with my staff and have been discussing various initiatives that we consider will be helpful in respect to protecting our big game populations in the province. There are various options open to us, some of which are under active consideration, a number of which have also been discussed with interest groups in the province.

I haven't formally indicated the nature of these proposals and their specifics from the point of view of their being brought forward for adoption at this time. There is speculation about them and I can understand, by the honourable member's probably referring to an

article that indicated there was some leak from my department. I'm not familiar with the leak from my department. Some of the points that were made in that

article are under consideration, including the possibility of a 300-metre refuge area along some road areas in the province. MR. A. DRIEDGER: To the same Minister then. Instead of trying to snuff out sport hunting, would the Minister rather consider hiring more COs and try and stop poaching instead of trying to stop sport hunting in this province? · MR. SPEAKER: The question is argumentative. Does the Honourable Member for Emerson wish to rephrase his question? The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Can this Minister give the sport hunters of Manitoba assurance that they will have some input into this matter before the Minister proceeds with implementing these kinds of restrictive regulations? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker , I have had consultations with sports - (Interjection) - Well, the honourable member seems to know all the answers and yet he asks questions. Surely he would like an answer. He asked me whether there was any consultation with people who enjoy the sport of hunting. The answer is yes.

I met with the Manitoba Wildlife Federation and reviewed some of these proposals with them and the reaction has been very favourable. The honourable member says I don't consult. That is false, Mr. Speaker. We have a grave concern in respect to the continuing viability of some of our big game populations. We are not going to sit back and do nothing. Those problems have to be addressed and we are looking at them. We are not ignoring the problems. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY ORDER FOR RETURN No. 4 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.

MER CIER: Mr. Speaker, the Government House Leader and I have had a number of discussions with respect to this Order for Return, and we have agreed upon a different form of Order for Return. So, by leave, I would move, seconded by the Member for Sturgeon Creek, that . . . MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) 1863

TuetdiiJ, 12 June, 1184 The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following information: 1. The complete advertising budget and costs of the government inclu ding all departments, Cr own corporations and agencies, and the Manitoba Jobs Fund from November 18, 19 81 to date hereof including: (

a) the cost of television time; (

b) the cost of radio time; (

c) the cost of newspaper or other print advertisements; (

d) the cost of producing the television commercials; (

e) the cost of producing the radio commercials; (

f) the cost of producing newspaper or other print advertisements; and (

g) the cost of pro ducing, printing and distributing materials such as brochur es or any other form of advertising. 2. The names of all firms or agencies producing material for the government including all departments, Crown corporations and agencies and the Manitoba Jobs Fund from November 18, 1981 to the date hereof, showing the total fees or commissions and expenses received by each firm or agency. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are prepared IQ accept tile Order as amended. Mr.

Speaker, I would add parenthetically just a note of thanks to the Member for St. Norbert for his co operation in dis cussing the matter so that the Order could reflect the ability of the government to prepare the information in a standard format. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, would you call second reading on Bill No. 16, please? SECOND RE A DING BILL NO. 16 - THE CHILD WELFARE AC T MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH presented Bill No. 16,

An Act to amend The Child Welfare Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister. HON. M. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to speak to Bill 16,

An Act to amend The Child Welfare Act. The amendments contained in this bill, among other things, provide legal authority for Winnipeg's six child and family service agencies. They expand the definition of child abuse, and provide procedures for child and family matters to be handled in the new, Unified Family Court of the Court of Queen's Bench. I would like to speak to the specifics of some of the amendments. The definition of child abuse has been expanded to include physical injur y, emotional disability and sexual exploitation.

This Is a significant change, and brings The Child Welfare Act into line with the province's recently announced revised guidelines on identifying and reporting child abuse. Approval by members will give additional strength to government's efforts to put a stop to child abuse by encouraging the identification and reporting of cases. Furthermore, it will strengthen government's program efforts in this area. I know that all members are deeply concerned about the alarming increase in reported cases of child abuse. I'm confident of their support to this amendment.

A variety of amendments have been included to provide authority for the role of master of the Unified Family Court. Under the Unified Family Court, a division of the Court of Queen's Bench, the master will be responsible for dealing with preliminary appearances and the scheduling of court cases. The amendments presented provide legal authority for the master to assume these responsibilities.

Following considerable consideration and di scussion with child- caring agency officials, Subsection 3(2) of the act is being amended to give authority to the Director of Child Welfare to Issue a written directive to an agency on a specific matter if required. Though we anticipate the amendment will be used only sparingly, we are convinced that it is essent!al in order to ensure greater accountability and consistency in the delivery of Child and Family Services.

A num ber of amendments have been proposed which will provide legal authority for Winnip eg's six communi ty-based, prevention-oriented Child and Family Service Agencies which will come into operation next April. The amendments confirm the established board structu res for which elections were held this pa!it April. The new agencies will be jncorporated as societies. Each will have a board of directors which includes individuals elected by community members, social service providers and agency staff. As well, there is provision for appointments by the Lieutenant-Governor in-Council. Mr.

Speaker, I want to emp hasize that these provisions do not apply to Children's Aid Societies operating outside Winnipeg.

Section 4(9. 1) has been added to deal with the dissolution of the assets and liabili ties of the Children's Aid Society of Winnipeg. This amendment is necessary, given the winding down of the agency's activities, and transfers resources and assets to the new agencies. Other amendments are included to enable the transfer of contracts and court orders to the establishment of the new agencies. These are admini strative in nature. They will ensure that the new agencies begin operations on a sound, admin istrative footing. Finally, Mr. Speaker, I wish to draw attention to the amendment to

Section 41 of the act. lt provides for a better framework for transitional planning on behalf of permanent wards at age 18. lt will support the continuity of care to those wards of the Director of Child Welfare or a child- caring agency who have experienced disruptions in support when they turn 18. Under the 1864

Tuuc:tar. 12 June, 1114 amendment, permanent wards will be allowed continued assistance up to the completion of the transition to their non-wardship status. Assistance would not be extended beyond the age of 21. Mr. Speaker, these are the major points in the amendments contained in Bill 16. Most importan tly, they represent a further focus on the government's intention to strengthen Child and Family Services. We consider the strengthening of Child and Family Services a priority. We have taken a number of initiatives to tackle a difficult and very complex problem.

We believe we are on the right track, and will be able to effect significant and needed change in the delivery of Child and Family Services by supporting the development of a community-based, prevention-oriented support for our childr en and families. I commend this bill to members. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Ro blin- Russel l, th at debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker , it would be my intention to move the motion for the House to go into Supply. Before I do that, Sir, I would like to advise honourable members that we will be continuing consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Community Services in the committee room. Here in the House, we will consider the Estimates of the Department of Finance this afterno on , but interrupt that consideration to do the Estimates of the Department of Legislature this evening at 8:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker, I believe there may be a willingn ess to dispense with Private Members' Hour.

If there is leave to do so, I would add that, Sir, to the motion. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Minister. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I would then move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Finance, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair, and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, the Committee of Supply to sit through Private Members' Hour. MOTION presented. MATTER OF GRIEVANCE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak on a grievance. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am somewhat disappointed in the Minister of Agriculture, as I am the rest of the government, and find a very displeasing situation in the Province of Manitoba with the recent reports coming from the farm community that we've seen the kinds of numbers of bankruptcy increases that we've seen. I rise to speak today, Mr.

Speaker, and will try to not become emotional, but with some difficulty, because we are seeing Manitoba's No. 1 Industry being eroded, being torn apart internally, losing the kind of people that I think would be our future farmers and should be those people who are going to add to, not only the economic well-being of our community, but to the social fabric, the very grassroots, the very beginning which everyone, probably native Manitobans, has come from in this room, this Assembly and throughout all of Manitoba.

To see the kinds of bankruptcies, not only tears the hearts out of communities, as individuals, but out of this province; that's what we're seeing happen under a New Democratic Party, Mr. Speaker. We are seeing people who are, yes, forced to register bankr uptcies, but there are many hu ndreds, as I indicated in question period today, that are leaving, not through the registered and the formal process, but are calling an auction sale, salvaging what they can and leaving that very very important community in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker , moving off. Mr.

Speaker, it is an unfortunate situation that we have to rise In our place and bring this to the attention of the public, to this government, who should appreciate more than they do the kinds of policies that they should be looking at to change the environment for those people who are going through extreme hardship. Mr. Speaker, it hasn't been that we haven't been warning them for the last two-and-a-half to three years, ever since they came into office. Mr. Speaker, we laid numbers out, we told them what had to be done. And what did they do?

The Minister of Agriculture stood in his place and said we have helped 1, 400 people with interest rate relief; we have helped a few people in the beef industry. At the same time, we've seen our feedlots go broke and close their doors; and the Minister of Agriculture stands and says, well there's a program for them. There are people going to custom feed.

Custom feed is not the custom of the farm community in Manitoba, they are diversified self-supporting industries within themselves and they haven't traditionally gone to spend money to custom feed their cattle; they've been self-contained units and, up until the time of the NDP Government, have been fairly healthy, thank you very much. lt all hasn't been roses, Mr. Speaker, it all hasn't been roses, but we are seeing a depression in the farm community under the New Democratic Party not unlike the 1930 Depression. NDP times are tough times and the farmers will remember them for that.

We used some figures earlier, Mr. Speaker, where in fact Saskatchewan, neighbouring province, basically the same kind of base, in fact more grain than anything else. The Minister stands and says there's extremely difficult times in the grain industry. We know that there's extremely difficult times in the grain industry, but the 1865

TuHd•y. 12 June, 1184 Province of Saskatchewan under a Progr essive Conservative Government is basically grain-oriented and it is not them tha t has the record of farm bankru ptcies in the first quarter of this year, it's the New Democrat ic Party in the Province of Manitoba, the figures which I have, Mr. Speaker. Let him not blame the Federal Government. I was agha st yesterday when the Mini ster of Community Services stood in her place and said "we've given up"; the NDP Party have given up on the farm community and are totally now depending on the Federal Government to bail the farm community out.

That's not good enough and we're not going to stand for it. Mr. Speaker, I will go through my comments and try to point out to this Minister of Agriculture how important it is that he take action, that he take the lead, that he show his government colleagues what has to be done, and we'll be helpful as we can in our recommendations, in our solutions to the problems. The problem is, you see, they have had the blinkers on. They thought, yes, we'll put a program in place and we'll th row X-millions of dollars at it, and we've helped 1, 400 people.

What about those other hundr eds of people that are crying for help, Mr. Speaker, tho se other people that need the kind of economic climate that would assist them during extremely difficult times? We are seeing agriculture at its lowest time in our current history and I'm sure even worse than some of the times in the 1930s, because in the 1930s people could move, they were mobile, they could sit down and they could milk cows and they could ship the cream. I'll tell you, Mr.

Speaker, and I'll lay on the table today that a farmer can't do that anymore because of the restrictions that government have imposed on the people. You cannot start milking cows today and ship cream and sell that because you haven't got a quota. That's the kind of a state of an indus try we're in, you cannot help yourself, Mr. Speaker, and as I said that's not good enough. We need a shakeup and we need it now. We don't need the Minister of Agriculture flying off to Ottawa saying, well, I made some great points on The Grain Stabilization Act. Mr.

Speaker, that decision was made weeks ago that there would be changes made to The Grain Stabilization Act. What did he accomplish? He spent some taxpayers' money, he made some cheap politics out of it, but he didn't increase the payment, he didn't get it now as we are requesting it. Mr. Speaker, he has failed and he did the worst sin of all when he was there, he didn't lobby the Federal Government to maintain the initial grain prices the 1st of August of this year. That's what the farm communi ty are currently calling for.

They have accom plished getting some pay out of the Grain Stabilization, he is about X-num ber of years behind, or months behind, in the needs of the farm community and I call on him to take imm ediate action or step aside because his Minister of Community Service has given up, she's given up. She said that we've done all we can, it's in today's press, she said, we have gjven up. Smith said Ottawa should move in and assume full responsibili ty, for it alone can remedy. Mr. Speaker, where have we gone to in the province as far as the community of agriculture is concerned?

We are members of the Legislative Assembly that are elected to represent the farm commun ity. The Member for Morris, for Swan River, Roblin-Russell, and Pembina were sent here to represent all their people but, Mr. Speaker, the strength of those communi ties comes from agriculture, and the day that the Government of Manitoba gives up on that community and that sector in society, as this government have done, then I say it's a shame and cannot be tolerated and they can't gm away with it. Where is the Premier of the province? I want to speak to him, Mr. Speaker. What is he doing?

I want to speak to the Premier of the province, I want him to come before the farm community and account for his actions, or lack of his actions. We want him, Mr. Speaker, at the head of the Agriculture Committee, we want him sitting in on the Commi ttee. Why hasn't he called the Agriculture Committee, Mr. Speaker, to deal with the problems farmers are facing?

Why hasn't he said we will assemble and we will meet in Dauphin, we will meet in the southwest region, we will meet in the sout heast region, and in The Pas and Northern regions to ask the farmers what some of the solutions are, to get at the grassroots level. Let's get with it, Mr. Speaker, why isn't that happening? No, Mr. Speaker, they're not doing it because they don't have the answers. They have failed, Mr. Speaker, they have failed miserably in their efforts to support the farm commun ity.

Look at the headlines in the Free Press - "50 Percent Increase In The First Four Months." That's the quote there, the numbers that I have that Manitoba has 58 percent for the same period over last year, as opposed to 20 - the Minister said today he has a figure of 20 percent in Saskatchewan. Mr. Speaker, when are we going to bring to the attention of the public the need to address the basic problems in agriculture? Why hasn't this Minister taken action? What has he been doing? He's been handing them the shell game, Mr. Speaker.

He goes to a meeting and says well I have made representation to the Federal Grain Stabilization Committee, the only one in Canada. Well, Mr. Speaker, hurray for him but he should have been dealing with the more important issue of initial grain prices when he was there. Let me make some other suggestions, Mr. Speaker, when we're talking about this. Yes, he immediately refers to the Crow rate. Well, I don't mind talking about the Crow rate because it is imposing a 54 percent increase in freight rates on the farmers of this province since the inception of The Grain Transportation Act. Who introduced that, Mr.

Speaker? The Honourable Lloyd Axworthy who is going arou nd, looking for re-election to the House of Commons. But who has he been holding hands with? He's been holding hands with this Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Speaker. They were hand in glove in this Assembly. We saw them vote every time there was a vote in this Assembly. We saw them tout him as the biggest Minister from Ottawa when they signed the Transportation Agreement, Mr. Speaker. lt's all right to condemn him on one hand, but he is a king on the other, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister responsible for the national grain transportation incr ease in rates, they're hand in hand; they are partners, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture in Manitoba and the Honourable Lloyd Axworthy, and don't let him beg off. Has he ever said to the Minister, 1866

l'ue8daJrt 12 June, 1814 hold up the increases in the transportation charges to the farmers? Has he ever in his private little tete-a tetes, said, Lloyd, our farmers can't tolerate an increase? The best thing you could do politically would be to stop that increase this year. Never, Mr. Speaker. He hasn't dealt with the basic problems. He just smokescreens his way along, holding hands with that Minister. Mr. Speaker, let me refer to a few other programs that we could talk about.

The farmers in Manitoba have had to look at what kind of hydro increase in their use of hydro in Manitoba, 16 percent since they took away the hydro freeze from the farmers in Manitoba. Yes, Mr. Speaker, the farmers of Manitoba are big hydro users. Under a Progressive Conservative Government, they had a frozen hydro rate. But what have they got under this government? Increases that are intolerable, Mr. Speaker, and this Minister of Agriculture could have said, we don't have to. Because of the plight of the farmer, we should exempt farmers from that hydro increase. lt is easy to pick out the farm use, Mr.

Speaker, but this government says no, we will tax them to the maximum even though they're down and out and we see record numbers of bankruptcies. Mr. Speaker, what about the land and education taxes on the farm commun ity, continually seeing an increase of education taxes on the land? Why hasn't the Minister of Government Services, when he was the Minister of Municipal Affairs, dealt with the Weir Commission? Let us come to grips with the problems.

We have the majority of taxes coming from the land in this province that farmers have to produce the food from and yet there is no relief in sight for the farmer who is paying excessive land and education taxes. Why haven't the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Municipal Affairs come to grips with that problem? Let us look at another example of increases to the use of Crown lands, Mr. Speaker. This is the Minister of Agricultur e that reimposed the cost of Crown land charges, increased the cost of farm lands through their Crown land program. Mr.

Speaker, what have they really done to help the farm community? What have they really done? They have used taxpayers' money to pretend they're dealing with the basic problems of the agriculture commun ity. What have been some of the impacts? What have been some of the impacts of this government not paying attention to the agricultural industry? We have seen the recent announcement of the closing of Burns, Mr. Speaker, Burns of Brandon closing. I challenge the Minister of Environment, because he is dug in. The Minister of Environment has said that the rendering plant at Brandon will not close.

I challenge him to keep it open because they need the by-product of the Burns packing plant to make it a viable operation. He is on record in this House, saying that it will not close. I challenge him to live up to his word, Mr. Speaker. If not, then apologize to the western region and the people who are depending on that to get rid of by-products and waste products from small killing plants and dead anima l stock. I challenge him to live up to his commitment to that region of the province. I tell you right now, Mr. Speaker, he won't be able to do it.

He stood here, made a political statement in the House, and he won't be able to back it up. That is everything that we've seen how the farm community have been dealt with by this ill-conceived government. What about the small communi ties? Do a su rvey, Mr. Speaker . I challenge the Min isters of Economic Development and Agriculture to do a survey of the farm machine dealers in the Province of Manitoba. They aren 't very happy. They aren't selling many big combines, tractors or equipment, and do you know why? Do you know who their biggest competition is?

The hundr eds of farm auctions that are selling farmers machinery at less than should be sold. They are selling out farmers. I'm an auctionee r. I have been watching what's going on, Mr. Speaker, and it bothers me to see the bankr uptcy sales or the forced closure sales. I don't think there is any auctioneer that likes to see the kind of sale activity that's going on now. I don't think there is really in their heart, Mr. Speaker, even though they get paid a commission. I don't think it is good, because it's hurting Manitoba. The long-term impact of the multitude of farm auctions is hurting Manitoba totally.

So I say, ask the farm dealerships how many combines and tractors and how many people are interested in buying machinery. I'll tell you what they will tell you, Mr. Speaker. They say, we may have to eat the iron that's on our lot. lt is not going to be sold this year. Mr. Speaker, we are in dire straits in the farm community and this government is doing absolutely nothing in a meaningful way. lt isn't only throw money at it, Mr. Speaker. Policy changes have to be implemented. What happened in Saskatchewan when some of the farms got into dire straits?

They implemented a several million dollar emergency loan program to those farmers, Mr. Speaker. Those farmers in Saskatchewan got a relief from their government. This government didn't do anything to help those farmers in dire straits. Oh yes, the Minister organized a meeting between the farmer and the credit union. I heard he did that a while ago, got great coverage, but it really didn't do a lot, Mr. Speaker. We have an industry that is in a very critical state, and it has to be turned around - and no.w.

We can't wait on this government to continually play politics with the farm commun ity, because when it's all over with, the NDP Government will be gone, and there will be a major job to rebuild the confidence of farmers in Manitoba. By example, I have pointed to Saskatchewan. They are rebuilding the confidence in that province for the farm communi ty. What happened, Mr. Speaker, last weekend? They have the unfortunate situation in Saskatchewan as we do in Manitoba where the northern regions have been receiving excess rainfall.

The Premier of Saskatchewan last Friday announced a multimillion dollar program to assist the transportation of cattle out of the dried-out area of the sout hwest region into the northern regions for pasture, and all those kinds of emergency programs that governments are called upon to do whether there is flood or drought. The farmers of Riverton and the farmers of many regions of the province have got problems, excess rain in the North in the Riverton area. But let me tell you what's happening in the southwest.

We haven't got, haven't been blessed with the kind of rainfall they have in the Winnip eg region, the eastern reg ion, the southeastern region. We have a massive out break of grasshoppers, Mr. Speaker, a massive outbreak. I have had nothing but phone calls all weekend, asking me when this government would introduce a program to 1867

provide or supply chemical to help combat the great grasshopper outbreak in the southwest, phone calls from the Virden area, from the Napinka area, from the Grande Prairie area, Mr. Speaker. When grasshopper outbreaks take place, it comes in and literally wipes a pasture out, Mr. Speaker. This government says no, we'll continue to provide a bit of chemical to the muni cipalities. I can tell you right now, I talked to the Reeve of the Brandon Muni cipality yesterday. They have just hired an airplane to spray the mun icipality road allowance where it isn't going to affect the people.

That Is what they are doing at their expense, except the chemical. I believe it's time this government took the responsibili ty to introduce a program to help the farmers of the Riverton area and to help the farmers who are plagued with grasshoppers in the southwest. lt is by example, Mr. Speaker, and it's happening in Saskatchewan. You bet they are taking on the res ponsibili ty as a government to help the farm commu nity. They appreciate the farm commun ity. Mr.

Speaker, I am concerned and I feel strongly about this, that if action isn't taken, the small towns, the communi ties that we all have depended upon for our resources, for our people, for the base economic activity of services to our farmers will disappear. They will not be able to continue to carry the load of the economic depression that the farm commu nity are in. Mr. Speaker, it is time for action, and I don't think that this House should take this question light ly. it is not to be taken lig htly, not to be kicked around polit ically, and the Min ister stand and pat himself on the back.

There is a time to deal with Issues, and this is the time. We all saw this government, after pressure from the Progressive Conservatives, go to the country to find out what the public thought about their change in language or their imposition of the language. Mr. Speaker, I think it's time we went to the country with an economic task force or the Agriculture Committee to find out some of the answers the people of the province have dealing with agriculture problems. I challenge the Minister to call the Agriculture Committee to go out and ask the farm community and the business communi ty what can be done.

Why are his policies failing? Ask them the question. Why hasn't all this great stuff that he has told us he is doing, working? Why are we seeing the continued increase in farm bankruptcies? Mr. Speaker, it's criticial; the timing is critical. We are only seeing the tip of the iceberg in the agriculture indu stry. As I said before, we have continually warned this government for the last two years, since 19 81.

We had a review done and we were told th&t if the economic conditions did not improve, we would see an Increase in farm bankruptcies that we had never seen before and that is what we are seeing come true. we saw the government introduce, as I said, an Interest Rate Relief Program, Mr. Speaker. What did that do? He says it helped 1, 400 farmers. Well, Mr. Speaker, what about the other 20-some thousand farmers who are in the same position?

They haven't been able to help, to get right to the basis of the problem, and I am suggesting that the Agriculture Committee, if it were chaired by the Premier of this province, let him go out and find out what is going on, let him replace his priorities. He put a committee together to go out and hear the public finally after pressure on the language Issue. Why won't he put a committee together and go out and hear about some of the problems and the solutions on the agricultural problems that are being handed to him daily by public press reports and by the farm communi ty? Yes, Mr.

Speaker, it's time that Manitobans came to the recognition that if we don't deal with the crisis In the farm communi ty, then we will not have the kind of strength, the kind of demand that these Ministers continue to tout about some of their major projects that they are going to try and accomplish. well, if they don't deal with the biggest mega project that we have in the province, and that's agriculture, then all the rest won't matter. I indicated in my opening remarks that we had seen some things that this government could do.

I suggested rather than increasing the hydro rates that possibly there could have been an exemption for the farm community during these tough economic times. You know we see, Mr. Speaker, the purple gas law In Manitoba where they are exempt for the use of purple gas. Let's show some leadership, Minister of Agricul ture. Let him show some leadership. Le! him show that he is worthy of the kind of office and the kind of position he holds in this province, the No. 1 position as far as the majority of farmers are concerned, all farmers. But look at the number of people that are dependent upon the farm commun ity.

Probably over half the people of the province depend on the farm commun ity, whether it's serving the farmer, producing the commodities they produce or serving those commodities, using those commodities or handling those commodities after they are produced. Mr. Speaker, let us come to the realization that if we don't take action now, it will be too late. I feel sad that I had to stand in my place today to put this message through to this Minister because he should have known. He should have been more In tune with what was going on. But here it Is, it's collapsing around his ears and he Is doing nothing about lt.

As I Indicated, it's time for action. I said that I believe we should have the Agriculture Committee meet, that the Premier, rather than running around doing his little political thing, should become actively involved. I challenge the Premier to do that. I believe that they should be prepared to act on the recommdations that the committee puts forward if there are some that are positive and can help the farm commun ity. As I indicated, there are areas where the costs to farmers can be reduced and reduced in a meaningful way. I, Mr.

Speaker, point out again to you that the im pact of the colla pse of the farm communi ty is demonstrated by the closure of the Burns plant, by the fact that there is lack of product. lt all started without a support program to the feedlot Industr y, a commitment that this government said that they would live up to after the election. By the way, I know my colleague has the manifesto that they were going by - that there wouldn't be a farmer, no one would lose their homes, their farms, because of high interest rates. The Minister of Communi ty Services has quoted yesterday's press.

She said that it's the high interest 1868

1\leaday, 12 Ju,.., 1814 rate policy. She added, without a change in federal interest rate policy, there is little the government can do. They have th rown their hands up in despair; they have abandoned the farm commun ity. The commitment that they gave to the farm community to get elected the last time was false. lt was hollow, Mr. Speaker, the same as the policies that they are - (Interjection) - I know that heckling is something in this House that some people feel they are effective at. I let the Member for River East know that I heard him mumble and grumble back behind me.

If he has something to say, I would hope that he would stand in his place in defence of the farm community and support what I am saying here today and speak out, because his mumble and jumble in the background is not impacting at all on what I have to say. Mr. Speaker, when we look at the figures again, and we will go over them, at least 50 percent if not a 58 percent increase in farm bankruptcies in the first quarter of this year compared to 27 percent or less in the Saskatchewan, a comparable basis.

Yes, the Government of Saskatchewan took action; they didn't blame the Federal Government; they took active action. They introduc ed emergency programs to help those distressed farmers in the southwest and the northeast part of the province. They implemented an emergency financing program for those farmers who virtually had very little possibility of improving their lot. They imposed programs and took on the responsibility, but in Manitoba we haven't seen that happen.

We have seen the political smoke screen of a Minister of Agricultur e who does not have the kind of support in his caucus and in his Cabinet that he needs. We asked the Minister of Agriculture today, Mr. Speaker, what he said to the Federal Government about the lowering of initial grain prices when he was in Ottawa. He didn't even suggest there should be a maintenance of the same price as there is this year. He did not answer the question. What did he do? He put a bunch of buffoon on the record, a bunch of gobb ledegook, saying that it was our fault that the Crow rate was changed. Well, Mr.

Speaker, has he asked the Federal Minister of Transport, the Honourable Lloyd Axworthy, to roll back those increases or to hold them because he and the federal Liberals are part of the same thing? He and Lloyd Axworthy are part of the same thing. Why doesn't he take on Axworthy and tell him what a bad Minister he is, why he isn't fit to be the member for this area or for the area of the City of Winnipeg, because he has let the farm community down which the City of Winnipeg depends on? Why hasn't he done that? But you have never heard him attack LLoyd Axworthy; you have never heard him take on that attack. Never.

Why hasn't he, Mr. Speaker? Why hasn't he held him up and said he is the man that is responsible for a 54 percent increase to your grain transportation costs? Yes, Lloyd Axworthy is, Mr. Speaker. Yes, Mr. Speaker, it's Lloyd Axworthy, and Lloyd Axworthy joined by the New Democratic Party. We will not rock the boat. Mr. Speaker , I will make a few other recommendations, and I make the recommendation to this Minister that he support Manitoba Pool Elevators and ask for a maintenance of the grain prices.

They did on well-foundeded information that the appearance of the total world trade in grain would at least be as good as, if not better, than last year. Yes, they made it on substantial information that they had. Why hasn't this Mi nister stood up and suppor ted that farm organization? We all know one of the im mediate problems that could help the farm community by the removal of the federal fuel tax. The Minister was again in Ottawa. Did he rais e that particular issue with the Federal Government? Did he ask the immediate removal of taxes on fuels that went to farm food production? No, Mr.

Speaker, he didn't deal with that. But he dealt with The Grain Stabilization Act that was a fait accompli. The Grain Stabilization Act, the decision had been made. Yes, there were some details that we all would like to have seen changed but this Minister didn't accomplish it. He went strictly for a political tour. Political advantage is all he went for, so he could say he was the only Minister of Agriculture in Canada to go to Ottawa to be heard before the Stabilization Committee. I have no problem with that, Mr. Speaker, if he had increased the payment and moved that payment forward this year. Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased to know that we have the Min isters of Agriculture from all across Canada coming to Manitoba this year. I'm pleased that we are. I would hope they would band togeth er, and this Is a recommendation, because I've got two or three others that I've given the Minister, what he could do locally.

What he could do locally in Manitoba is to form the Agriculture Committee, deal with the problems now, look at solutions and ask the Conservative opposition for some of our suggestions through that committee process, go to the public hearings throughout Manitoba and ask the farm community for some of the solutions that they see are available. Of course, he's afraid of being criticized, Mr. Speaker. I've asked him to remove some of the costs that are incur red by the farm community at the provincial level, but more so on a national level.

I would ask this Minister of Agriculture to present to all the Mi nisters of Agriculture across Canada, plus the Federal Minister -by then he may be the Leader of the Liberal Party and the Prime Mini ster, we're not sure yet. The Honourable Eugene Whelan may in fact accomplish that this weekend, we're not sure - but whatever capacity, I would ask them to bring to the attention of the Prime Mi nister of Canada, all the Premiers of the Provinces, the need to add ress the plight of the Canadian farm people, particularly as it relates to costs versus incomes.

You know, when we look at what happened in this country when we met a national energy crisis, yes, we had the Premiers of the province and the Prime Minister of Canada priorize the problems of the energy industry, it was a national focus, Mr. Speaker. lt was a national platform; it was of national debate. In agriculture today, we are still in the crisis in agriculture. We are still in the crisis of agriculture that no one has addressed.

When the energy problem was before us, we saw action taken by the producing provinces, negotiating with the Prime Minister, and it was a national interest, because all at once everyone was afraid they were going to run out of motor fuel for their cars and for their services. Yes, Mr. Speaker, it was a national crisis. Today the agriculture community faces a national crisis and it is getting worse. I challenge the Ministers 1869

l'Uesdar, 12 June, 1114 of Agriculture from across Canada to call a national convention, a conference, to bring to the attention, to invite the Prime Minister of Canada, to invite the Premiers of the provinces of this country to come to grips with the food energy source that we are having to produce, Mr. Speaker, at less than what it costs to produce.

I challenge this Minister of Agriculture to stand in his place today and tell us that he is going to call the Agriculture Committee, that he's going to bring before the National Conference of Agriculture Ministers the plight of all the farmers of this country, bring to the attention of the Prime Minister the need to deal with agriculture as was the non-renewable energy industry was dealt with on a pedestal, on a priority list, and not make fun as the Min ister of Finance would do, of our very basic industry in this province. Mr.

Spea ker, the Minister of Finance has gr eat pleasure in making fun of the farm commun ity. Let it be on the record that he is taking it very lightl y. I've got news for him. lt wouldn't take the farm commu nity long to sort him out and put him in his place if he had the intestinal fortitude to confront them or to meet with them at some point to deal with them. He's a great guy behind all the buffoon that he puts up, but when you get underneath, Mr. Speaker, there's very little substance there.

In conc luding my remarks, as I've indi cated , I challenge the Minister to call the Agriculture Committee and have provincial meetings with the farm commun ity. That, Mr. Speaker. I believe Is a must, be prepared to implement the kinds of actions and policies that will help the farm commu nity and as I made reference to some of the things that could be done, education taxes, hydro cost increases. I'm challe nging him to do that; I challenge him to support Manitoba Pool Elevators and all other farm organizations, to maintain the initial grain prices as of the 1st of August this year and not see them reduced.

I challenge him, Mr. Speaker, to take on Mr. Axworthy, to not support him in his bid for the next federal election, but to criticize him and him alone for the increase of 54 percent to the farm commun ity. That's the kind of thing that I challenge this Minister of Agriculture to do, Mr. Speak er. I challenge him to live up to his commitment as he did in the election, that no farmer would lose their home or their business, that nobody would lose their job - and we're seeing Burns close. I challenge this Minister to live up to what he's saying and quit playing politics with the farm commu nity. Mr.

Speaker, this Minister has gone too far. He's gone too far; he has sat back on his haunches in the Cabinet and let the Minister of Energy, let the Minister of Finance just play with him. He has no say in what happens within the whole system. In fact, the Member for lnkser, I'm sure, when it comes to Natural Resources, that the Minister of Agriculture yields to the Member for lnk ster on the policies that affect farmers. As I said, it's unfortunate that I had to rise in my place and speak on a grievance. I am emotionally upset, Mr. Speaker.

I am in a position where I - the members can laugh as they like, but we are seeing the tearing down of the basic industry in this province and these people sitting by the wayside blaming it on the Federal Government, saying it's their high interest rate problem. Mr. Speaker, there are many areas of action. This Minister could stand; he could do those kinds of things that I' ve re commended , and we would be fully supportive of going to the hearings throughout Manitoba, going to Ottawa, if invited, to meet with the Federal Government.

Just give us the opportunity to reach out and help those farm people who are desperately in need and want the support of a government policy, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honour able Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, if I ever heard a diatribe from the Hono urable Member for Arthur, we heard it today. Four years, when he was Minister of Agriculture, when he didn't know what to do, he blamed the Federal Government. Just read all the press releases, Sir.

When he wanted to get a few headlines, because nothing was going on in Manitoba, he would write a press release and fed-bash. Mr. Speaker, we will bash the Federal Government when there is a matter of principle to bash them on, like the Crow rate; and the honourable member talks about us being very close to Lloyd Axworthy or Bud Sherman, a Tory or 'i Liberal, on the Crow rate, when he talks about the Crow rate, is like Tweedledum and Tweedledee. lt really doesn't make any difference of which one you have. Mr.

Speaker, who appointed the new federal Deputy Minister of Transportation, the one who put the blueprint together for the changes in the Crow rate? A Tory Minister of Transportation. The stage was set by the Tories. Mr. Speaker, the former Premier of this province went to Prince Rupert when they had a conference dealing on transportation and what did he say? The Crow rate had to go. Mr. Speaker, the former Min ister of Agricu lture of this province, in discussion with his western colleagues, said that the Crow rate is an impediment to the expansion of livestock production In this provine. Mr.

Speaker, talk about speaking out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand he gets up here and he goes on a diatribe of saying we want government intervention, while they're in opposition. On the other hand, when they're in government, the free and open market system is the one that is the best to have farmers survive. If ever I heard of a fundamental solution to the ills of agriculture, I heard it today, Mr. Speaker. Farmers who are in difficulty should be able to milk cows. We've got to start milking cows, Mr. Speaker, because the farmers are in financial difficulty.

That is the Member for Arthur's solution to the financial ills of many of our farmers in this province. We got to start milking cows. They can't get into milkin g cows, Mr. Speaker, that is the problem. Well, if ever there was an "' tack on the orderly marketing system in this countr y, it comes from the Conservatives and the Member for Arthur, Sir. lt Is stat ements such as this that lead to the chipping away of the orderly-marketing system.

If ever a party is prepared to put the farmers of this country on the line in terms of leaving them to the wolves, to the free and open market system that they espoused, Sir, it is the Conservatives in this House. lt is the Conservative Party who are prepared to say we will compete, let the farmers compete when they're in government. 1870

TIIMday , 12 June, 1114 The hog producers came to them, no assistance until a deathbed repentance just before an election. That's when they brought in assistance. The beef producers, Sir, came to them. They showed them the door, Sir, there was no assistance. They ruined a program that we're still trying to piece together, Mr. Speaker. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MA. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. B. UAUSKI: The Member for Arthur said that we go around and we pretend that we are doing something for the farmer of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, let's look at what we are pretending to do: $25 million of provincial revenues- that's not including the producer premiums to 5,000 beef producers in the last two years - 5,000 producers; 1, 000 hog producers received $7 million in Inc ome support; 1, 300 producers received $14 million in interest rate relief; between 400 and 600 producers received loan guarantees . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MA. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. B. UAUSKI: . . . Mr. Speaker, over 600 farmers received assistance under the MACC In terest loan Guarantee Buy-down, $18 million saving. Mr.

Speaker, directly about one-third of Manitoba's farm producers have been directly impacted in a financial way by programs that this government has instituted since we've been in office. About one-third of the province's producers have had some financial support, direct financial support from this government, Mr. Speaker. For the Honourable Member for Arthur to say that his greatest solution to agriculture is let's start milking cows, I find that shallo w. After a government . . . MA. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order TABLING OF A DOCUMENT MA.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur on a point of order. MA. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, if the Mi nister would pay attention to what I said; I said they weren't allowed to start and I said I would table a letter, which I'll do now, just to make sure the record is straight. As I'd ind icated earli er, I did make some solid reco mmenda tions, Mr. Speaker, to some of the problems and I would like him to pay attention to the full comments that I made and not just take it out of context. MA. SPEAKER: lt was not a point of order. The Honourable Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. UAUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, the honour able member, one of his statements he made - we'll check Hansard - but he said one of the greatest problems 1871 that farmers are having is that they can't get into milk, they can't milk cows. They used to be able to milk cows and they can't do it tod ay. Mr. Speaker, the member well knows that in supply managed commodities that there is a quota system. Mr. Speaker, when one attacks the supply-management system as the Honourable Member for Arthur does, why did we get into a supply-managed system, why? Because there was chaos in the marketplace.

The Honourable Member for lakeside is standing up in his place. He's one of the Ministers that did have a hard time, I believe, with his colleague, the Minister of Ind ustry and Commerce of the Day to bring In some orderly marketing Into the feather industry in this province. Precisely the reason that supply management came into being was that there was going to be a collapse in the ind ustry because the free-and-open market system that they so greatly espoused would have collapsed and we'd have had a demise of a large sector of the agricultural indu stry, Mr. Speaker.

That · is the reason that the system came into being because there would have been a collapse and, now, Sir, to have Conservative members of the legislature saying we want an expansion in production in those areas well knowing that can't occur is very shallow. Talk about playing politics, Mr. Speaker! Truly, there is one way of playing politics with the fate and lives of those producers who are and have been active in the ind ustry and have stayed in an industry through the good and the bad times and did survive and now are enjoying some of the benefits of supply management and guaran teed incomes.

That's who the honourable member and his party are playing with, Sir. Mr. Speaker, one of the biggest problems and the most fundamental problem that the farming community is faced with is as a result of what, a collapse in world markets? I have to say that members on this side supported the resolution calling for the continu ance of the initial price on grain, Sir, but you see an ·opposition that really speaks out of both sides of its mouth. He re we've had suggestions today for gr eater intrusion into the free-market system. Mr. Speaker, put more money into agriculture.

They wanted greater federal participation in stabilizing grain prices, which we have no difficulty with, but, Mr. Speaker, throughout this country the Conservative Party, whether it's In Manitoba or whether it's national ly, has criticized vehemently the deficits that the Federal Government is facing and the deficits that the Provincial Government is fa cing. They have criticized the extent of the deficit and said that spending should be curbed with the exception of programs that they would like to see.

On the one hand they want to see massive expansion, massive expenditures into programming and, on the other hand, they want to go around the countryside and say the deficit's too big, we're going too far into debt, Sir. Mr. Speaker, the Member for Arthur talked about purple gas exemptions. Mr. Speaker, the province has an exemption in purple gas. He didn't talk about, Mr. Speaker, the removal of capital gains tax off family farms. They didn't want to talk about that measure because they were in government and that continued on.

We brought in those measures and we exempted those and Mini ster of Finance incr eased those exemptions this year, Sir.

l'undar, 12 June, 1184 Mr. Speaker, the Member for Arthur , I guess, doesn't und erstand that in order for farmers to survive there has to be a stability in income or else what is the converse? Either (1) land prices have to go down, interest rates have to drop, all the Input costs have to be dropped because today based on the market system that they support, land cannot return. The production of the land that many farmers purcha sed in the last number of years cannot return the income that is required from the world prices of-grain. lt just cannot, Sir, it just cannot. There is no magic about it.

When you're going to pay $1 ,000 an acre for land to produce barley or wheat on the world market today, it cannot give you enough money to pay the interest costs and consequent ly, Mr. Speaker, with a party that supports high interest rates combined with the two which has had a broad impact on costs to the farming community , we have a problem, we have a massive problem and a massive problem that was seen in the late '70s as coming on. lt wasn't something that has come on in the last year or two, it was something that could have been perceived in the late '70s, Sir. ln'79 and'80 it was there on the horizon.

Some of the farmers that the Member for Arthur raised during Estimates and, specifically, the one, my colleague indicated to me that his machinery was repossessed in 1979 yet while they were in government. So, Mr. Speaker, the problems of bankruptcies do not start overnight, and have not started overnight. They are a phenomenon that has occurred over many years of (

a) low incomes, Mr. Speaker, increasing costs of production, wrong management decisions in terms of the pu rchases that many farmers made at the wrong time at high prices, because they were management decisions. Some of the difficulties that farmers got themselves into were as a result - some of them felt that there was no end to the prices of grain and livestock returns, and they made massive pur chases which cornered them when the interest rates went into the 15-plus, 20-plus range, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, to have a party on the other side say that there has to be a massive move into agriculture by this government is very shallow indeed. When they supported high interest rates at the national level, their own lending agency in the province loaned money at 17 percent to farmers, Sir, their own lending agency. Mr. Speaker, we tu rned that around. We offered a buy-down to the farmers of Manitoba, and saved 600 to 700 farmers $18 million over the life of those loans, Mr. Speaker. That is the kind of action we had, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, bankruptcy and bankruptcy legislation in this country is of national importance, and we have made submissions to the Federal Government months ago on their new bankrup tcy legislation. We expect, at least by the announcements in the paper, that they have taken into account our submissions dealing with farm foreclosures and farm bankruptcies. While we are not ha ppy tha t bank rupt cies are occurring, we believe that the amendments and the suggestions we've put forward dealing with bankrup tcies are a step in the right direction to protect the family farm where there are extenuating circumstances, Sir.

Those suggestions are being made. The suggestions dealing with Western Grain Stabilization, I believe that the Conservative Party or at least their critic doesn't und erstand that the changes that are being proposed now by the Federal Government are not near what is requi red to change the plan to make it more sensitive to Western Canadian farmer needs. If he would only dO a bit of research, he would better und erstand what that program was designed to do. I have to admit that the way it was legislated, it is doing exactly that, not working, but, Mr.

Speaker, we not only made criticisms to the Federal Government on the plan, but we made definit ive proposals as to how to make that legislation more sensitive to the individual needs of Manitoba farmers and western Canadian farmers. The honourable member should be aware that there will not be a pay-out, and there will not be a pay-out in the future under the plan if it is continued as it is presently structured. Mr. Speaker, there will only be a pay-out If the honourable member should understand that there is an averaging of all the grain sales in Western Canada before a pay out is made.

So if there is a collapse in the canola industry or in the flax industry, Mr. Speaker, there will not be a pay-out, because the only time that there will be a pay-out under that legislation is if the main commodit y, and that is wheat in Western Canada, the market for wheat collapses, because the pooling of the incomes of all grains are combined.

We have said that the stabilization plan should, in fact, be segregated by commodity so that when Manitoba farmers in 1982, because of the frost, or in 1980, because of the drought, had massive losses in the grains industry, that's when the pay-out should have been triggered , at the time of the massive losses. That won't occur, Sir. That will not occur even by the changes that they are making today. I find it very shallow that the Honourable Member for Arthur, a grains person from southwestern Manitoba, doesn't even und erstand the program as it's presently envisaged. They don't even understand the program, Mr.

Speaker. They asked for a pay-out. The Conservative Caucus met in Saskatchewan. They asked for an immed iate pay-out out of the Grain Stabilization Plan. They could not even get their act together to say that there had to be fundamental, structural changes, Sir, in the - (Interjection) - well, Mr. Speaker, where were their recommendation? Where was their position? They met. Where were the other provinces dealing with the Western Grain Stabillzation Plan? A MEMBER: Where were you? HON. B.

URUSKI: I have to give their federal colleagues in Ottawa and their Agricultural Critic, Charlie Mayer, I ha.-e to give them credit that they were interested, and they were very suppor tive of the defin itive recommendations that we made to the Committee of Agriculture. I give Charlie Mayer credit there. He, along with the NDP Mem bers of Parliament, were very supportive of the changes that we recommended to The Western Grain Stabilization Act, but no credit, Mr. Speaker, to the members opposite in this House, no credit whatsoever, none whatsoever. All they talked about was an immediate pay-out. Mr.

Speaker, that's what the Liberals are doing. They are making an immediate payment. Mr. Speaker, that isn't 1872

'IWedar, 12 June, 1884 going to settle or solve the fundamental problem of The Western Grain Stabilization Act. lt will not, Sir. To suggest that somehow we are not supportive of initial grain prices or trying to tie the two, Mr. Speaker, is really sliding so thinly that one can skate right off the edge and fall off. Because what the Honou rable Member for Arthur was suggesting, because he really made the point that we weren't supportive of maintaining initi al prices of grain. Mr. Speaker, the record in this House shows the opposite. The Member for The Pas proposed an amendment, Mr. Speaker.

I spoke on the resolution. The amend ment was put forward but, Mr. Speaker, for Tories to say we support initial grain prices, well knowing what the impact will be or could be on the federal deficit, Mr. Speaker, is really really speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Because on the one hand, they say the deficit is too high. We have to cut spending. On the other hand - (Interjection) - well, Mr. Speaker, the Honour able Member for Morris says, priorities. Is education a priority, Mr. Speaker? lt is. So we can agree to higher spending in education. Mr. Speaker, is health care a priority?

Let's have premiums in health care as the Honourable Member for Morris has suggested in his leadership bid or in other provinces of this country, Sir. MA. DEPUTY SPEAKER, P. Eyler: Order please. The Member for Morris on a point of order. MA. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I would like the member to retract his statement, suggesting that I indicated I was in favour of premiums in Medicare. No statement was ever made to that effect. MA. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture to the same point. HON. B. UAUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I withdraw the specific statement, but cert ainl y state ments made by the Honourable Member for Morris alluded in that direction, Sir. Certainly they alluded in that direction. There is no doubt. Now let's go through the programming. Is highways a priority in this province, Mr. Speaker? I don't hear the Conservatives. Hi ghw ays is not a pri ority? Absolutely, okay. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MA. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. HON. B. UAUSKI: Mr. Speaker, Jet's deal with . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MA. SPEAKER, J. Walding: Order please. A MEMBER: How about the army? MA.

SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Member for Lakeside will have his opportunity to speak. In the meantime, I would appreciate it if he would give a courteous hearing to the Minister of Agriculture. The Honourable Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. UAUSKI: Mr. Speaker, is disaster assistance a priority that my colleague, the Minister of Government Services, announced? Is that a priority? Do I hear that from the Tories? - (Interjection) - Oh, the Honourable Mem ber for Emerson says, rest ricting farmers' freedoms. MA. A. DAIEDGEA: I said spraying, spraying I said. HON. B. UAUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, oh my goodness, if that is a priority, I don't believe that there is anyone on this side of the House that is restricting anyone's spraying, farmers' spraying specifically. No farmers have been affected. I think the Minister of the Environment indicated that, Mr. Speaker, that no farmers are being affected. Mr. Speaker, the Member for Arthur wants now as a priority for the government to set up a massive assistance program for spraying of grasshoppers. That was one of his suggestions he indicated here today, that we should - (Interjection) - Mr.

Speaker, there were grasshopper outbreaks, the province did support and does continue to support the spraying of public areas for grasshoppers. But the cost, and really Jet's understand how the program came about. Initially the program came into being because: (

a) there was a lack of chemical in terms of grasshopper spraying at the time that this program was established; (

b) the cost of the chemicals were exorbitant, were very high. The Province of Manitoba during those years felt that they would try and lower the cost by having bulk purchasing of the spraying and providing it to rural municipalities to spray in public areas. But, Mr. Speaker, since that time let's understand that the cost of the chemical has declined substantially from what it was originally. - (Interjection) - Oh, yes, Mr. Speaker, in terms of what it was in the early '70s, the cost of the chemical has in fact declined for grasshopper spraying, and the cost per acre by virtue of that has been reduced.

The availability of the chemical has increased. There are several chemicals, insecticides, now on the market. So, Mr. Speaker, I - (I nterjection) - oh, yes. Mr. Speaker, they have the same - the Member for Morris indic ates, Sir, that Saskatchewan still has a supply. Sir, they're running into the same problem that we ran into - reformulation, because cans were leaking and because of the age of storage. They were in metal cans, and cans were being eroded. They were leaking, they had to be reformulated because the formulation was weak.

Let's not forget that some of the formulation that is being put on the market even by Saskatchewan today is at a reduced price. Why? Because the formulation is out of date. The formulation is - (Interjection) - oh, the strength. I agree that Manitobans went over there, but they should be aware that the strength of the chemical has been reduced proportiona tely.

So, Sir, the program will continue to be covered in terms covering public areas, but at the present time we would have to look at other areas, unless there were some greater or severe problems than we see at the present time, we would have to review our whole program. But at the present time we will continue as it is. 1873

But, Sir, the statements calling for the establishment of the Agricultural Commi ttee -if I ever saw a desire of an opposition wanting to grandstand, this is exactly it in the House today. Mr. Speaker, a total grandstanding attempt by mem bers of the opposition, Sir. - (Interjection) - Mr. Speaker, I didn't put the headline in the paper either. - (Interjection) - No, we didn't. Mr. Speaker, we didn't raise the question. Your leader raised the question, right? I wish I did have some hand in writing some of the articles at the time, but you wouldn't like it, and I guess the Free Press will have to have their day.

I wouldn't mind having the chance of writing some of the headlines and the stories. But certainly the Honourable Member for Arthur can't get up in this House and condemn us for blaming the Federal Government for a lack of init iative in terms of income instability in agriculture. I mean his whole four years in office was fed-bashing, Mr. Speaker. Most of his colleagues fed-bashed. There is a time, Sir, for fed-bashing, and there is a time for co-operation, Mr. Speaker. We have said that we will bash and we did on the Crow rate.

We were the only western Canadian province to go and do a massive advertising campaign and a ma ssive informational campaign throughout this province to say that the Crow rate would do damage not only to the farm community but to the small business people, to the small towns, everyone that the farmers deal with, to local government, because the costs would be shifted from the railways to the local taxpayer to the local munic ipalities, Sir. Mr.

Speaker, all we heard from members opposite was criticism that we were spending mone y on advertising to inform the public of Manitoba the damages that the change in the Crow rate would do. lt will be gradual, Sir, it will not happen overnight. lt will be gradual. lt is true, Mr. Speaker, that we have not been able to help every farmer in the Province of Manitoba, it is true, there is no doubt, but I just want to say that the calling of the Agricultural Committee will not help.

The Premier and my colleagues are out in rural Manitoba today talking to small business people, to muni cipal leaders, to farmers in this province. We were out there last week, we'll be out there again. We were in the southern region last year, we were in the western region before that, we were in the eastern region, and we will be touring the province. I will be touring the province over the next number of weeks talking to the farmers of this province myself, Mr. Speaker. But for the honourable memb er to suggest that we're - (Interjection) - well, Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Member for Emerson says, will it help? If it won't help, Sir, then why is his party calling for the Agricultural Committ ee to meet and talk to farmers? I can't understand their logic. On the one hand if they're there it will help, but if we're there it won't help, Mr. Speaker. Now that is Tory logic, Sir. That is real Tory logic in terms of how we talk of farming.

If ever there was an admission of grandstanding it is by the very words from the Honourable Member for Emerson admitting that they are grandstanding because if we go out there and talk to farmers it won't help, but if they go out and talk to farmers and they're there, oh, it's going to help a great deal because they want to grandstand, Sir. Mr. Speaker , 5,00 0 beef produc ers, 1, 000 hog producers have received financial assistance, over $32 million; interest rate relief, 1, 300 farmers, $14 million; loan guarantees, 400 farmers to 600 farmers, $24 million in assistance. Mr.

Speaker, MACC Buy-Down between 600 farmers and 700 farmers, $18 million; MACC loans, $44 million in the last year. Over 9,000 farmers in the Province of Manitoba have received direct financial assistance from this province in one form or another, Mr. Speaker. - (Interjection) - I will not use the 1980 drought as a blame on my colleagues for hurting the farmers of Manitoba, Sir, but they better realize that was the beginning for many of them In terms of having hardships because many of them during the late '70s made major expenditures into land and equipment.

Interest rates went up, high priced land, and what do you see, Mr. Speaker, down the road? Financial difficulty, financial ruin to many of them .. Mr. Speaker, at a time when the hog industry was crying for support, they weren't going to do anything until the deathbed days of their government. They said we'll put in $5 million in the industry in short-term support into the hog indu stry. Mr. Speaker, the beef industry came to them for support because they killed the previous program. They showed them the door, Sir. Did they help the milk producers any? No, Mr. Speaker, they really didn't know the industry.

So, Mr. Speaker, it is true that m&ny of the farmers of Manitoba are in difficul ty. They're in difficulty as a result of a massive world recession In terms of grain prices, and it will not be this government that will be able to assist them. lt will not be this government to be able to assist the grain industry. We will be able to assist - (In terje ction) - Well, Mr. Spea ker, the honourable member, he said we heard it all. Mr.

Speaker, that just reminded me - they sent out a brochure throughout Manitoba where they indicated that one of the faults of this government was that there were no changes in the Western Grain Stabili zation Plan. Mr. Speaker, did the Tory party realize that The Western Grain Stabil ization Act is national? No, they want to blame the Provincial Government when it comes to grain stabilization. They want to lower every program on this government. They went out and they told the farmers of Manitoba, Sir, that inaction under the Western Grain Stabi lizatlon Plan Is a fault of the Provincial Government.

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. B. URUSKI: What does it say, Mr. Speaker'? Under Provincial Government Inaction. Mr. Speaker, talk about misrepresentation. Talk about misrepresentation of the fact. Either that, if it isn't misrepresentation . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, it's even less than that. They are totally clueless. They don't know a federal program from a provincial program. If they don't know the difference, Mr. Speaker, no wonder the people of Manitoba put them where they are and they deserve to be there for the next number of years, Sir.

And they will be there. They can't even tell the difference between a federal and a provincial program, Sir. So, Mr. Speaker, they will continue to be in opposition for many years to come, but it will be this government, 1874

lWedq 12 June, 18M it will be this party who has supported agriculture in its endeavors to support the Incomes of farmers. By doing that, Sir, we are protecting the jobs in the urban centres, in the beef industry, In the processing industr y. That kind of investment, Sir, is working together with the farmers of Manitoba and working together with the people in the food processing industry to make sure that agriculture in Manitoba will prosper and will grow even though it is going through some difficult times today.

QUES TION put, MOTION carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Finance, and the Honourable Member for Burr ows in the Chair for the Department of Community Services and Corrections. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY • COMMU NITY SERVICES AND CORRECTIONS MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Sentos: Comm ittee, please come to order. By common agreement, we shall start the proceedings by considering Item No. 4.(e)

(1) Child Day Care, Salaries; 4.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures; 4.(e)

(3) Grants and Subsidies - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could give us a rundown on what has been happening in the Child Day Care Department in the last year. MR. CHAIRMAN: Madam Minister. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Ch airman, the major development was the act which set the standards which the department Is now in the process of applying in order to license both the group day care and the family day care.

In this month of June, the completion of the Inspections and licensing is to occur, because the final group that were licensed under the City of Winnipeg are coming under the program. At the same time as work has been done on the standards, since it does involve quite a lot of expectation of training of staff, there has been, through the committee appointed by the Minister to supervise the qualifications of staff, a committee of 10 or 11 people from the day care field.

They are developing standards of skill and of training required in order to recognize people's quali fications and they are including a process for recog nizing experiential learning and skills acquired not just to formal training but on the job.

There has been an increase in the numbers of families qualifying for subsidy during the year, which accounts for a major part of the increase in funding; year-over year ,'84-85 over'83-84, there has been a 19.7 percent increase in the total amount allocated to the program. lt is actually a 6 percent increase as an individual centre would experience it, and the other percentage increase represents the higher number of families that are qualifying for subsidy, and some increase in volume that occurred in the previous year.

There are over 9,000 childr en in the non-profit and family day care and another 4,000 under private centres. There is a great deal of pressure in the system since the need is still running ahead of demand. The shortages are in the infant care, the Lunch and After School Program and some special needs type of children. We are trying to increase and accommodate special needs children in the day cares, integrate them in and provide the support services, training to staff, in some cases an aid to help deal with their care, and extra money grants to the centres to enable them to handle special needs children.

The salary levels are still relatively low. The increases this year will permit some modest impr ovement, but the total program, the salary levels are relatively low and that's an issue that we hope to be able to see getting gradual im provement over the years. There's been a great deal of activity in the program and the combination of good standards and of gradual expansion and licensing, we feel, really puts Manitoba in the forefront of the development of this program across Canada; but that doesn't mean there isn't a fair way to go before we meet the need.

In times that are very difficult economic ally, we feel that we've been able to expand the system in a very solid and responsible way and we do, of course, see this service as an important economic support to families and single parents who are doing their best to get along in emplo yment and often in fairly low paying jobs, so it's a high priority program for the government. MR. A. BROWN: I see that there is a substantial increase in the total monies paid, up $3 million from the previous year.

Would that increase be primarily an increase in the number of pupils or Infants, or whatever, children, within the system or where would the major portion of that increase be? HON. M. SMITH: Approximately $700,000. increase is attributable to more families qualifying for subsidy. That means more lower Income people are using the service and the other is volume increase and the Increased amount available, as I said, 6 percent was the amount allowed centres year over year. MR. A.

BROWN: Some of the difficulties, of course, that have been brought to my attention and that is by higher standards, fire control and regulations as far as day care is concerned . These have caused a number of problems within the different agencies. I am wondering how strictly Is the Minister adhering to these when an agency such as, well, almost all of them, have problems adhering to the code. Is the Minister enforcing them very stringentl y, or is some leeway given to those areas that do have problems in finding the necessary funding? HON. M. SMITH: There has been time given to centres to meet the standards.

Of that increased amount of money, $1.61 million has been allocated to assist with the physical upgrading for fire and safety so that centres can meet the licensing standards. That money has been flowing out to the centres. They can get assistance in planning how to upgrade in the most efficient way from the day care staff. So that's an important component in the current operation. 1875

l'UHdaJ, 12 June, 11114 MR. A. BROWN: The upgrading of the staff themselves, I under stand that 60 percent of the staff-people in day care in the city probably would have the kind of standard that the Minister had set, but that in the rural area it's more like 15 percent. Is the Minister allowing these day care centres time and these people time with which to upgrade themselves? The other question that I would have, how long a course would this be? Would this be a year's course in which to upgrade themselves or two years, or what length of time are we talking on an upgrading course? HON. M.

SMITH: The phase in is to occur up until 1988, and people are granted provisional licences so long as they are developing a plan whereby to achieve that. We expect to have a third of the staff upgraded by October, 1986, and the other two-thirds by October, 1988. The rural centres will be meet ing the same expectations. Now in order to facilitate their receiving training, the courses that are being developed at the colleges are going to have an outreach component so that people will be able to get some of that training in their local area.

In co-operation with Education, which is working on satellite outreach and so on and correspondence-type courses, there will be a variety of ways that people can upgra de, in addition to a challenge for a credit on the basis of experience and demonstra ted skill. So we feel there is a combination of some pressure on people to upgrade, at the same time a reasonable time frame within which to achieve the standard. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: During the Education Estimates, I had asked the Minister about the salaries that people were earning after they had taken the two-year.

She indicated approximately 18,000 a year. When I further checked that out, that was for a very limited num ber of people and that the salary range is still around $14 ,000.00. Do you have any figures on that? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, the average salaries, there is quite a range. The average salary for directors in the city is $19,800; non-Winnip eg directors, $16, 200; and Winnipeg workers, $12 ,700; non-W innipeg workers, $1 0,800; that's the average. Then there are also range figures which I could give you. They go below and above, of course.

Since the day care program developed from a service that was provided for free in the home, it has never had very high salaries and we believe that the whole salary range should move up to recognize both the importance of the work, the skill required, and the training. That improvement will occur gradually over time, but we have adopted a principle. Instead of making direct grants for salaries, we make grants to the boards and then they must priorize whether the increased money year by year goes into equipment or program or salaries. So there is some variation between the centres. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: The other thing that has come up is that the turno ver rate for day care workers is about 50 percent and that they stay less than the two years. I can understand that as long as the salaries are that low, that after someone has two years of training, they are going to want to and expect more money, but the money isn't there. I am jus t wondering how the Minister plans to resolve this dilemma so that we are not training people for day care at some expense and then not have them stay in the field. HON. M. SMITH: Well, the solution will

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-3-41a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 3rd hansardpdf 41a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f6b5b0969bb00c33999b86cfd18298e0ceff05c9

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