Manitoba Hansard — 31 March 1980 (Sitting 28A, 31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-28a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Time: 2:3 0 p. m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 31 March, 1980 OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Bi rtle-Russell): The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. WARREN STEEN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of J.M. Westaway and Others, praying for the passing of

An Act to incorporate the Canadian Insti tute of Management in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions ••• Present ing Reports by Standing and Special Committees ••• MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minist er of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the Annual Report of the Workmens Compensation Board of Manitoba for the year ending December 3lst, 1979. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion. • • Introduction of Bills •.• INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: Before we proceed to Questions, I would like to bring to the honourable members' attention, we have 32 students from Quebec City, with their teachers Sylvain Premont and Jean Labbe, who are visit ing our province. Their hosts are the Landmark Collegi ate and the host teacher is Jacob Siemens. This Collegiate is in the Constituency of the Honourable Member for Springfield. We also have forty Air Cadet students from Russell and Dauphin, under the di rectio n of Captain Paul Galatiuk and Captain Thom, and also a Mr. Reidulff is with them. These cadets come from the Constituency of the Honourable Speaker.

On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you hear this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Attorney -General. In view of the scalding fatality involving a patient at the Institute for Mental Diseases in Brandon on or about February lOth of this year, can the Attorney-General advise the House as to when information of such scalding death first came to his attention? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W. J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, I will take that questio n as notice and inquire into that matter and respond to the Leader of the Opposition at a later date. MR. PAWLEY: A supplementary to the Attorney-General. Can the Attorney -General advise whether or not he has issued instructions for the holding of an - 1843 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 inquiry inquest under the provisi ons of the Fatality Inquiries Act pertaining to that fatality? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, I will enquire into the subject matter of that inquest and will respond later. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Mini ster of Education.

In view of the report which was released over the weekend involving the sad state of some of the buses that are operated on behalf of school children within Winni peg School Divisio n No. 1, can the Minister advise the House as to whether all inspec tions, as required by law, were done by his depart ment pertaining to the school buses under the owners hip of H & S School Transport Ltd. in the city of Winnipeg? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Educati on. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr.

Speaker, school divisions are required to receive a certifi cate of road-worthiness every six months, on every school bus, and that certificate is signed by a qualified mechanic and school board members are to receive these, as I have mentioned, every six months. In the case of Winnipeg School Divisio n No. 1, the last certifi cates of road -worthiness for the buses that they have contracted for was recei ved in March of 1979. They should have had further certifi cates received as of September in 1979. I understand on the reception of the report the board has taken immediate action to rectify the situation. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Oppositi on. MR. PAWLEY: The Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister has ju st acknowledged that some one year has passed by without the government policing its own regulations, can the Minister advise what act ion is going to be undertaken to ensure that proper inspections are undertaken as required by the law each and every six months from here on in? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Speaker, I am notified by my department, my Director of Transportati on that verbally and in writing he notified the Director of Transpor tation for Winnipeg No. 1 that these parti cular regulati ons, and I refer to Regu lation P250-R l0, was not being adhered to and, of course, subsequent to that no apparent action was taken. Apparently the school board of Winnipeg No. 1 had not been informed of the sit uation by the people in their administration. I under stand they now are fully aware and are taking actio n. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister, does the Minist er advise the House that not only was the school board not informed by their department but that indeed his department had not followed up since March of 1979 to ensure that the regulati ons were being properly enforced? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, my department merely makes the school divisio ns aware of what these regulations are. It is then their respon sibility to see that the regulations are enforced. If they don't the school board puts itself in a very difficult position and, of course, is liable. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of this blatant omission on the part of the government to assume any follow-up information, does the Minister now intend to undertake any action to ensure that such omissio ns do not occur in the future? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, we are continually monitoring the bus maintenance programs throughout the province and, in general, find that these programs are being followed very closely. The regulati ons are being adhered to. Where they are not, we will certainly make sure they are informed in that regard. - 1844 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Labour, and my question pertains to the Port of Churchill. While it's a known fact, Mr. Speaker, our government is in support of the Port of Churchill; it is well known. -- (Interjections)-- Mr. Speaker, I have listened to honourable members opposite when they are pos ing their questions and if they cannot give those of us on this side to pose our questions in the same fashion as they do, then I suggest, Mr. Speaker, they should be brought to order. MR.

SPEAKER: Order. Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake may pose his question. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to repeat, as it is a well known fact that our government is in support of the Port of Churchill, it offers its services to Manitoba MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. I would hope that all members would afford a courtesy to any member of this Chamber who is rising in his place and asking a question or making a speech. And I hope that that courtesy is ex tended by all members of the Chamber, not just some members. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR.

EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Labour is, that there are rumours that there's a possibility of a strike that may be pending at the Port of Churchill; I would just like to ask the Minister if he could confirm whether or not there is a possibility of a strike in Churchill this spring. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to assure you, first, that the people on this side of the House are concerned with the situation in Churchill, which I'm wondering if the members opposite really are. --(I nterjection)- - Nego tiations have been taking place, Mr. Speaker. In fact, two rather heavy sets of negotiations took place and both have broken down, and we certainly hope that both parties can get together in the very near future. I've done some things to endea vour to assure that, Mr. Speaker. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to ask a supplementary question, and ask the Minister of Labour if he has been in touch with the respective union or the federal government in this very crucial matter. MR. Mac MASTER: Mr. Speaker, I've been in touch with people in Churchill and I've had some of my senior staff dealing with some of the people in Ottawa. You must remember that this is a federal jurisdiction.

It didn't stop myself, specifically, from being involved in the work stoppage that took place in that particular port a couple of years ago and it's not stopping myself, as Minister of Labour, from involving myself at this particular time. I have sent a letter to Mr. Pepin with a copy to Mr. Regan and I hope this afternoon to bring this particular point to the attention of Mr. Axworthy, who I'll be meeting with later on today. tary. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake with a final supplemen- MR. EIN ARSON: Yes, Mr. Speaker, with a final supplementary.

I wonder if the Minister of Labour could indicate whether he has been in contact, most impor tant of all, with the residents and the business people of the Port of Churchill. MR. MacMASTER: Well, there's a lot of interest in Northern Manitob a, cer tainly about what's taking place, Mr. Speaker. I've been in touch with the Mayor of Churchill; we've been in touch with the court authorities; I have been endea- - 1845 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 vouring to track down the president of the union who I understand is on holidays at this particular point, but he was involved in the two previous sets of negotia tions. We're endeavouring to get a hold of some of the national representatives that have responsi bility for the union in that partic ular time. Again, this time, I wonder - probably as a westerner and more specifi cally a northerner - just how much atte ntion is really being paid to the problem by our Ottawa counterparts. I say that for a good reason, Mr.

Speaker, because in the last work stoppage, there cer tainly didn't appear to be a great deal of effort exercised by the Ottawa head of the negotiati ons. That's why I have contacted both Minis ters that are involved and I'm going to raise it specifically with the Minister from Winnipeg this after noon. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSE LL DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Education concerning school bus inspections and ask him whether he can clarify this point.

Is it the practice of the department to simply inform the division of its inspections and then there is no follow through, even after six or twelve months? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe it's a matter of six months that the member refers to but, certainly, if we are in contact with the Director of Student Transportat ion in a division, making them aware of the particular regu lations that they should be adhering to, then I would expect that the school board would take necessary action to remedy a situation. MR.

DOERN: I would ask the Minis ter whether the province has the power to order the buses off the road, or is the onus entirely on the school division? MR. COSENS: It rests with the school divis ion, Mr. Speaker. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I look forward to a chance to discuss that matter during Esti mates in view of that defici ency. I would also ask the Minis ter whether the study by departmental officials that came out the other day in regard to Winnipeg was a cursory examinatio n or a thorough analysis.

If it was, if he could explain whether that was a complete inspection, a thorough inspection, or whether the news reports were based on a partial or incomplete inspecti on? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I can't speak for the news reports. A study was requested by Winnipeg No. 1, a study was carried out by people in my department. I'll leave it to the judgment of the Member for Elmwood as to whether he considers it a complete, superior, an A-grade, a B-grade type inspecti on. I think it covered the variety of topics that the school board was concerned about and covered them quite adequately. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkst er. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Finance to whom Manitoba Hydro reports. Can I ask the Minister whether it is the intention of Manitoba Hydro to do envi ronmental studies with regard to any future programming on the Burntwood River? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. DONALD w. CRAIK (Riel): Mr.

Speaker, my understa nding is that Manitoba Hydro has been looking at that possibility, and as a matter of fact, I believe that they had called for tenders from various consu lting firms and pro posals, I suppose, they should be called, from various consulting firms for that purpose. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. - 1 846 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'm glad the Honourable Minister is aware of it. Is it not a fact, Mr. Speaker, that tenders were called for, that the Manitoba Hydro Board selected what they consi dered the best tender and at the instance of the Minister of Finance, they have been prevented from picking up this tender and have been directed to another consulting firm by the Minister who had not even participated in the first tend ering process. MR. DESJARDINS: You've got to be kidding. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, that's not the case and whoever has provided the member with this type of information or where he is gleaning it from, I suggest that he check his sources more thoroughly. Mr. Speaker, the hydro has been look ing at various proposals to look at the envi ronmental engineering studies on the Burntwood system. To my knowledge, they have not made a decision with regard to the matter. There has been no instruction from this office that has gone to Manitoba Hydro to select anybody that's involved in the proposals. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I ask the Minister whether it is not a fact that Hydro Board and Hydro personnel have agreed or desire to award the contract to one of the parties that bid and that they have been directed by the government to con sider another consultant that has not even parti cipated in the original tenders, or as the Minister now calls them, proposals. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I can tell you unabashedly, that whatever it is that the Member for Inkster is making, accusations or suggestions or tabling of this kind of information, is absolutely wrong.

To the best of my knowledge, the Hydro Board has not selected tenders or proposals or whatever it is on the Burntwood studies. They were looking at them. There has been no instruction from the government with regard to who should be selected for these kind of studies, and there will not be. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is addressed to the Minister of Consumer Affairs.

With reference to the Minister's statement to the effect that the government will assist those tenants needing assistance out side of those eligible for the SAFER Program, can we expect a statement offering guidelines for this new policy at an early date? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON ( Morris ) : I, first of all, Mr. Speaker, tell my honourable friend that I made no such statement; that the press quoted me as hav ing made that statement and made it in error. MRS. WESTBURY: Thank you.

A supplementary question: The CMHC have offered a vacancy rate of 4. 9 percent and I wonder if the Minister could confirm that this can hardly be described as a vacancy rate in accommodation that's affordable for those on limited incomes. MR. JORGENSON: No, Mr. Speaker, I have no comment to make on what the CMHC vacancy rate estimates are. MRS. WESTBURY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister would tell the House what kind of study he or any department that he is aware of has undertaken in the past year to ascertain the level of increases in rent are being imposed on tenants as the controls are lifted. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. JORGENSON: As my honourable friend may be aware, we have been monitor ing rent increases, both inside the city, those that have been released from con trols, and outsi de the city which have been free from controls since October, 1978. - 1847 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question for the Minis ter of Education dealing with bus transportation. In view of the fact that there is several urban school divisio ns in which there are proposals now to provide French Immersion classes for kindergarten and Grade I, I'm wonderi ng whether the Minister could inform the House as .to whether there's any proposal to assist those school di visions, such as River East, in providing transportat ion for the children who would be then able to attend those new French Immersion courses.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, in that regard there is no transportation pro vided at the present tim e. I'd be quite prepared to discuss that at some length during my Estima tes, however. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary to the Minis ter of Education: Could he also advise the House as to the position of the government at this time with respect to assisting those children who are going from one school divis ion to another in order to take special courses such as Immersion courses? MR. COSENS: I can assure the member, Mr.

Speaker, that we have that par ti cular problem under very close scrutiny at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. LA URENT L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minis ter of Community Services. In order to help those on low incomes instead of creating another hardship, will the Mini ster consider changing the format on Day Care financing, that is, to increase the maintenance grant instead of allowing an extra fee for all parents of those atte nding Day Care? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Community Services. HON. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, as the honourable member knows, those people who are on low income probably qualify for a subsidy and they do so if they earn under somethi ng like $11, 300 a year, and that's their net in come take-home pay. They will qualify for the subsidy rate as well as the $500 maintenance grant. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, the Minis ter did not answer my question, and the statement • • • does the Minis ter realize that by allowing Day Care to charge an extra fee, the total extra fee is paid by the parents of those attending these Day Care, and the maintenance grant hasn't gone up for the last four or five years, since 1976. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the honourable member could clarify this. Is the honourable member referring to the dollar optional charge that's possibly going to be charged to some of the parents? MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I was referring to the Maintenance Grant, which hasn 1 t been increased since 1976; and I was also referri ng to the optional dollar, as the Minister calls it, that will be charged in total to the parents of those attending these Day Care. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, I don't know if the Honourable Member for St.

Boniface was present when the Honourable Member for West Kildonan raised similar questions and at that time I indicated to the Honourable Member for West Kildonan, that we would keep a close watch on the program; that if there appeared to be any hardship where people were dropping out, then we would look at reviewing those present policies. - 1848 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: the Honourable Member for St. Boniface with a final supple mentary. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I never heard of the Member for West Kildonan. I don't know where he sits. This is in the same spirit, Mr. Speaker, that I'm asking the questi on to the Minister, because there is no doubt that those problems will arise and it would be a lot easier to look at the situation now be fore the ••• -- (Interjection)-- I beg your pardon? I would like to repeat that it's a very well known fact, Mr.

Speaker, as my honourable friend knows, that the people on Day Care will be penalized under the same format, and I would wish that the Minister would look at it now before this goes into effect. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, first off my apologies to the Honourable Member for West Kildonan. But firstly, Mr. Speaker, we don't believe that what the Honourable Member for St. Boniface has suggested will happen. We don't believe that, and there is no indication to date that that will happen and I have indicated to the House that we will watch the situation closely.

We feel that the program that we've put forward is a fair one, not only to the low income people but to generally the taxpayers as well. It's a program that's based on affordability, not only for the user but also for the taxpayer who helps to subsidize a program. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. I wonder if the Minister can advise the House of his position regarding the decision on Friday by Transport Minister Pepin to withdraw federal funding for the Port of Prince Rupert. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, I would like to say, I haven't got the details of the announcement by the Federal Minister, but would have to say our position has been, in Manitoba, that we fully supported the development of Prince Rupert and fully supported the decision by Don Mazankowski to pay the full costs of the infrastructure without any charges to the consortiu m who had made the decision to build and not have to pay for the use of them.

I think that it is imperative that the western Premiers deal with this and put pressure on the federal government to, in fact, go ahead with the decision that was made by our former Minister, Don Mazankowski. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I wonder will the Minister assure the House that either he or the government will call a meeting of the western Premiers or Ministers of Agriculture to hopefully establish ways and means to raise this $40- -some-odd million for the Port of Prince Rupert? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, for the information of the member and the House, we requested a meeting with the Honourable Minister directly after his appoint ment, that we sit down as western Ministers and people involved in grain handling and transportation to look at, or to hear their policies and what their ideas were on the continuation of decisions that were made by the last federal government. And yes, we are looking forward to having a meeting with them to discuss these very issues and, in fact, pressure them to continue on with the commitment that the consortium had on Prince Rupert. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAMUEL USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I posed a series of questions to the Minister of Finance about a week ago with respect to his de partment's demands for refunds of property tax credits that were provided to Manitoba taxpayers in 1978 and he indicated at that time that he would take the matter under advisement and - 1849 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 bring the answer back at some future date. I wonder if this is the date that he might give us those answers. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I think I indicated some of the answers to some of the questions at the time, but there were some miss ing spots and, Mr. Speaker, if I can indicate to the Member for Lac du Bonnet that there has been some difficulty with the legislation under which the Property Tax Credits were set up in the in terpretation of. About a year ago, or sometime during the last year, the federal revenue people advised that their

interpretation of the legislation indicated that it would be required under that legislation to not make available to newly marrieds, two rebates in the year in which the marriage occurred. And as a result they have taken the - as the income tax laws operate, as of December 31 of any given year that determines the marital status of a person - as a result they in terpret also that that should be applied to the case of the rebates. There is a difficulty, Mr.

Speaker, in that I don't know that it was the in tention of the government at that time, when the legislation was passed in the mid 1970s to have that occur and went by for several years without being interpreted that way. We have asked the federal government in the meantime if they could at least give consideration to waiving interest charges on any back payments, and I gather it has come to their attention and applies to the years 1978 and 1979· We will have to look further at the legislation itself. It would require a legislative change as far as we can determine, to have any effect on the present method of

interpretation. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that that was a federal govern ment

interpretation. But is it not correct to suggest that the province of Manitoba was in a position to insist on the original

interpretation since the grants were really grants from the Province of Manitoba to the taxpayers of Manitoba. So is it not reasonable to assume that this Minister could have instructed the Government of Canada to continue with the original

interpretation? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, the information I have is that it will require a legislative change to clear up the matter, regardless. But as the legislation stands now, we are advised that there is a pretty clear indication, understanding on the part of the Revenue Canada people, that they must act in this manner. We have asked them if they could, within their discretion, at least allow no interest charges on anything they did collect. We will review the matter, but it will require legislative change. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet with a final supple mentary. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister is placing the whole responsi bility on the Government of Canada. But, Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister whether or not this government could not legally require the Government of Canada to con tinue with the original

interpretation, because this is purely a Manitoba situa tion; it has nothing to do with the Government of Canada. The Government of Canada is merely a collector of taxes for the province in this respect or the payer of rebates on behalf of the province in this respect. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Lac du Bonnet says that we're at taching responsibility to the Government of Canada. Mr. Speaker, that's not the case. If there is responsibility, the responsibility lies with he and his as sociates who put this legislation through in the first place in the mid 1970s.

If they had written the legislation properly and adequately, we wouldn't have had this problem, Mr. Speaker. -- (Interjection)-- Well, Mr. Speaker, we now have some members opposite saying, "Where were you?" Mr. Speaker, I was on the opposite side of the House and it always turns out that - 1850 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 that former government, when they passed bad legislation such as The Mineral Acreage Tax Act, blamed it on the opposition. MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order. Order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for Transcona. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: A supplementary to the Minister of Finance, pursuant to the questions posed by the Member for Lac du Bonnet. The honourable member makes reference to the legislation as being faulty when passed. Does the honourble member not acknowledge that there was no problem with

interpretation till 1978, that the legislation stood on its own until 1978. And the specific question to the Minister, in view of the fact that there is now a problem of

interpretation, is the Minister prepared to introduce legislation now in order to deal with what appears at this point to be a problem in interpretati on? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CRAIK: Well, Mr. Speaker, I indicated in answer to the Member for Lac du Bonnet's question, that we were now re- examining the legislation and whatever, Mr. Speaker, in either case, it's going to have to be clarified as to the intent.

The intent at the present time is clear that, if, as has been indicated by the Revenue Department, that the way it reads they are doing what they are supposed to do, and that's the case. Now, if we want to change it, we're going to have to change the legislation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary to the Minister of Finance.

In view of the fact that he indicates he is considering legislative change and such payments are presently being made by taxpayers to the Department of Revenue, is he prepared to indicate to taxpayers that they should suspend pay ment on the basis of legislation that he will intro duce during this session, 1980, so that such payments will not be necessary? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, tacit in that suggestion is the assumption that taxation legislation would be retroactive. So, Mr. Speaker, the member is now suggesting that we pass legislation to clear up the mistakes he made when he was in government.

I will tell the members opposite that we are re-examining the legislation. We'll clean up as much of their mess as we possibly can, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker •• My question is to the Minister of Education, subsequent to his earlier answers about the school buses. Can the Minister clarify to the House just when his department became aware that the buses had not been inspected according to the schedule? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I don't have that particular date with me. I'll take the question as notice. I'm sure it's on file. MR.

WALDING: A supplementary question to the same Minister, Mr. Speaker. Would the Minister explain why he permitted those buses to continue to run after they were found to be outdated as far as the inspection was concerned? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I think the honourable member has to understand that as far as my department is concerned, the responsib ility for the proper main tenance and so on of the school buses rests with the school divisions.

If we are to follow the inferen ce of the honourable member, then I would require a vast army of inspectors to parade around the school divisions, inspecting all buses and so on. Let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, that I believe we have doubled the size of the departmental transportation department. Honourable members opposite, I believe, had one member in that department when they were in government; we now have two. - 1851 -

MR. SPEAKER: mentary. Monday, 31 March, 1980 The Honourable Member for St. Vital with a final supple- MR. WALDING: A final supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, and that is, is the Minister of Education not wholly responsible, for education in this province and does he not have that responsibility to the children of this province to see that buses are properly inspected and that they are safe for those children to travel in, and that it's his responsibility and he cannot slough it off on to the school boards? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Speaker, definitely, I know where that responsibility rests and it's certainly a very serious one and one that we take seriously. I am very concerned about bus transportation. As a rural member, I suppose I am more familiar with it than many of the representatives on that side who live in the city. But let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, that we did inform the school board in question. I mentioned earlier that their Director of Transportation was informed by my department as soon as discrepancies did appear. And, of course, one would then expect that action would be taken immediately. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE: My question is the Minister of Highways responsib le for Transportation. I wonder if he could confirm to the House, that with the impend ing road restrictions coming on, if he is considering exempting farm trucks haul ing produce to market this year. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. DONALD ORCHARD (Pembina): No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, pursuant to questions that were addressed to me last week in the absence of, I think, the First Minister, the Minister of Consumer Affairs respecting rent controls, I note that there is a report in the Tribune indicating that I suggested that the rent controls were being considered for ex tension by the government. I don't have a copy, Mr. Speaker, of the Hansard at this point, the record may show differently, but it was not my intention to make the suggestion that rent controls were being actively considered by the government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR.

WILSON PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the - I believe it's the Minister of Community Services who is reponsible for the Institute for the Mentally Retarded at Portage la Prairie. In view of the fact that Dr. Glen Lowther was removed from the position of administrator of that institution some time ago, is the Minister in a position, or could he tell us who the present administrator, either full-time or in an acting capacity is, for that institution? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. MR. MINAKER: Mr.

Speaker, in answer to the Honourable Member for Transcona, the acting administrator is Gary Mattin from the Brandon Mental Health Institute. He is carrying on that responsibility at the present time. MR. PARASIUK: A supplementary to the Minister - both the Minister of Health and the Minister of Community Services - I guess I direct this to the Minister of Health actually. Would he look into the situation, whereby an admin istrator from one department is being asked to fill on an acting capacity the pos ition in another institution which is geographically separate from the other one.

Would he look into that dilution of administrative capacity to determine whether any of the irregularities that arose at the Brandon Mental Health Centre after - 1852 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 that unfortunate accident and death, in a sense had been created because of the dilution of administrative supervision at the Brandon Mental Health Centre, by asking the administrator at that particular place to administrate in an institu tion on an acting capacity, that is some 70 miles apart from him? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, from what I know of the situation at Brandon and the incidence to which the honourable member refers, and which every one regrets, there was no relationship between what happened in those instances and the actual administrative role and function of the chief executive officer at Brandon. We have looked very strenuously for a permanent chief executive officer for the Manitoba School in Portage. That search is continuing. There's been con siderable advertising done and a considerable search carried out. It has not, unfortunat ely, up to this point in time proven very productive. MR. SPEAKER: mentary.

The Honourable Member for Transcona with a final supple- MR. PARASIUK: Given that there is some confusion in the reporting rela tionships between the Department of Community Services and that of the Department of Health, could the Minister of Health tell us when he was first made aware of the death at the Brandon Mental Health Centre by his staff? MR. SHERMAN: I believe it was Friday, possibly Thursday, certainly Thursday or Friday of last week, Mr. Speaker, and it's my understanding that that was the approximate time in which the news stories, the public disclosures of the incidents took place. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister of Health on the same question. Due to the fact that personnel at various levels of this institution failed to notify either the authorities of the Attorney-General's department, the police authorities, or, somehow the Minister, is the Minister planning any disciplinary action with respect to the people who were involved? MR. SHERMAN: Not at this juncture, Mr. Speaker. I expect I will receive a report from the Chief Executive Officer at the Brandon Mental Health Centre, Mr. Mattin, on the situation.

I haven't received such a report no have I asked for one, but I would expect in the normal course of events and in the knowledge that I have of Mr. Mattin's sensibility about his responsibilities, I expect I will receive a report. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, does the Honourable Minister consider that failure to notify either the authorities or appropriate lines to the Minister, does he consider that to be grounds for discipline of the people involved? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I would have to explore the details of the case but it's my understanding that the Chief Executive Officer notified the Medical Examiner, and I have no responsibility nor do I have - it's not a question of try ing to determine where the responsibility lies - I do not have the right to invade or intrude the preserve of the Medical Examiner. It's my understanding that the next step rested with that official. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster with a final suppleme�tary. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

Would the Minister undertake to advise the House as to what lines of authority were notified by those people having respon sibility and who were aware of this tragic accident? Would he undertake to notify the House? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, by all means, Mr. Speaker. - 1853 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Question Period having expired, we will proceed with Orders of the Day. Adjourned Debate on Second Reading, Bill No. 22. The Honourable Member for Logan. ORDERS OF THE DAY BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE - COMMITTEE CHANGES .MR! WILLIAM JENKINS: Mr. Speaker, just before we proceed with that Bill, I would like to make a substitution on committee, Committee of Public Accounts, the Honourable Member for Burrows for the Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. SPEAKER: Has the honourable member leave to make that change?

Is that agreed? (Agreed) ADJOURNED DEBATES ON SECOND READING BILL NO. 22 - THE INTERIM APPROPRIATION ACT, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan on Bill No. 22. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I adjourned this Bill on behalf of my Leader, the Honourable Member for Selkirk. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, this is a bill which normally takes several days of debate in order to permit Interim Supply, to permit payment of public servants, prior to the termination of the year end March 3lst, but does give the opposition an opportun ity to undertake some general observati ons, some general observations insofar as the present policies on the part of the government in power as to how those policies in effect are affecting the Province of Manitoba, whether they be affecting the province from a negative or a positive point of view, and also at the same time, to make some suggestions to the government as to steps that might be undertaken on their

part in order to ensure that some of the present defic iencies that are so obvious within our social and economic fabric in Manito ba can be corrected. Mr. Speaker, it was in 1977 that a solemn commitm ent was made to Manitoba by the then opposition leader, by the present Premier of this province, that there would be a certain thrust insofar as the future of the Province of Manitoba.

And I would just refer honourable members to the statement in question, one which was repeated at various times during the 1977 campaign by the then opposition leader, the present Premier, to Manitoban s in order to seduce Manitoban s into supporting the then Progressive Conservative Party. To bring about an alleged new tomorrow insofar as Manitoba would be concerned.

And the present Premier said to Manitobans, 11I have a vision for Manitoba, a province of younger people fully em ployed and older people secured in dignified retirement; of family farms that are bountiful and prosperous, and a north whose abundant resources are being developed by northerners themselves; of children well educated for a bright and productive future, here at home; of job security, financial stability, for every Manitoban.

"We do not have these blessings today", said the then Leader of the Opposition, "but I believe that we can have them and I ask your help in challenging Manitoba for the better and making that vision become true. " October, 1977; October, 1977. And Manitobans in considerable numbers acce pted the words by the then Opposition Leader, accepted the words and gained a vote of expectation and a con fidence to the then Opposition Leader, to present to Manitobans the reality of that so-called new vision. Mr. Speaker, it was for a period of time after October 1977 that there was certain interesting developments.

First, of course, the government embarked on its own clear enunciated policy of restraint. A policy which was geared towards reduce deficit at any social and economic cost. A policy which was directed to wards cutting down vital services. A policy which did undertake some promise to - 1854 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 Manitobans in 1977 and 1978. And for a period of time, Mr. Speaker, there was certain spinoffs. Spinoffs as a result of economic activity which had just been started prior to October 1977, and which had resulted in the increase of some jobs. There was the Mccain food development in Portage la Prairie which had been initiated some time prior to 1977. And then, Mr. Speaker, there was the Tupperware announcement in Morden. But my colleague, the Member for Brandon East had already undertaken much of the basic spade work insofar as that particular initiative was concerned.

There was the commencement of Eaton Place; there was the completion of work pertaining to Trizac; there was certain economic spinoff in 1978. But despite that economic spinoff, the overall picture was not working out as the Premier of this province had pledged to Manitobans that it would back in October 1977. And the Minister of Finance enjoyed some good luck. There was some miscal culation either, I believe on the part of his federal counterpart in respect to equalization payments.

On November 2nd, 1979, he received advice from Ottawa, as witness ed in a news service release issued by the Minister of Finance that date, that revenues are increasing primarily because of a series of recent revisions in federal estimates of Manitoba equalization entitlements. Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that the additional revenue was in the neighbourhood of something in the general area of $60 million, as a result of the miscalculations that had taken place on the part of the Ottawa.

So for a period of time, for a space of time there were certain contradictory situations that were making themselves apparent in Manitoba. But now, Mr. Speaker, two and a half years later the picture in Manitoba is clear, it is pre cise, it is a picture that all Manitobans can see and, Mr.

Speaker, a picture that is causing more and more Manitobans to come to the only logical conclusion that they can; that this is a government that has failed in its opportunity that was given to them; a government which in fact has permitted what was a vision to turn into a little less -- little less - than a dogmatic spew of words, back in 1977. A government that has caused Manitobans to become among the lowest in ranking by way of most economic indicators that economic activity can be measured by in the province of Canada. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, it is becoming increasingly noted that Manitoba is beco ming the Newfoundland of yesterday insofar as the Canadian economy is concerned. Mr. Speaker, we were told that this was a government that would rely upon the private sector; a government which would put the private sector on trial; a government which would eliminate the role of government so that go vernment would no longer be an activist effective role enjoyed in stimulating the economy; government was not needed.

Government was pictured by my colleagues opposite as some sort of alien, some sort of foreign force in the total economy and social life of the province of Manitoba. The result of that, Mr. Speaker, these misguided doctrinaire policies, propagated by the Minister of Finance, repeated over and over again by the First Minister of the province, has been to place Manitobans at a disadvantage. And the Minister of Finance can smile. The First Minister can laugh, that this is not true.

But if the First Minister and the Minister of Finance would leave the isolated surrounding s of this building and to leave the isolation which they are thrust in by their own private advisers and speak to the man on the street and the woman on the street, they would find out, Mr. Speaker, that there is general and widespread concern about the direction that this government is taking Manitobans in 1980, in Canada. We are faced with a situation involving record net outmigration, 1978, 1979, no other two years in the history of Canada that can compare with those two years.

And all that the Member for Minnedosa, that loves to speak from his seat but rarely standing from behind his seat, is to walk about throughout the City of Winnipeg or in his own hometown of Minnedosa, or any other community, and ask the people how many of your neighbours and how many of your sons and daughters have been compelled to leave Manitoba to work in provinces to the west of us and to the east of us. The Member for Minnedosa and his colleagues might indeed find some revelation. And last year, Mr.

Sp eaker, was the first time that Manitoba has witnessed a decrease in population since 1966, another Tory year in the province of Manitoba. And, Mr. Speaker, as well, I am informed, the only province, the only province in - 1855 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 the whole of Canada, to have experienced a drop in population in 1979. Because that is the experience. Was that the vision that the First Minister was going to develop into reality in the province of Manitoba? A population of net out migration in record numbers, a Manitoba of losing population? And then, Mr.

Speaker, we have the situation where Manitoba had the sharpest decrease in housing, 44 percent decrease in housing, 1979· The greatest decrease in housing in any province in Canada - and I know the housing market is not the best, but I wouldn't have expected that Manitoba would have experienced the sharp est decrease in housing in any province in Canada. Sharp increases in business bankruptcies; the largest increase percentagewise in many and many a year, 1979. And, Mr. Speaker, while once we imported skilled labour into Manitoba, we now do little less than to export our youth from Manitoba to other provinces.

Investment, the lowest rate of increase for private and public investment in any province in Canada, the lowest rate of increase. Mr. Speaker, I do not discuss these statistics with any relish. I can only express disappointmen t and sorrow as a Manitoban, that in two and a half years Manitoba has fallen into this sort of muskeg. But a muskeg, Mr. Speaker, that my honourable friends across the way must accept responsibility for.

They have set themselves out in a clearly defined economic and social and political course of action, a Tory quagmire that has led to the present situation in the province of Manitoba, and Manitobans will be holding tht government, that Minister of Finance, the Premier across the way, for the responsibility which we are confronted with now in Manitoba, in 1980. And interestingly, Mr.

Speaker, so much was said in 1977, leave aside the question of the economy, so much was said by the Minister of Finance and by the First Minister that they were going to improve the financial picture insofar as Manitoba was concerned; that Manitoba was facing bankruptcy they said, in 1977; that they enjoyed the expertise and the business knowledge and the abilities and the skills that they would put all right for Manitobans so Manitobans could again have confiden ce in the financial management of internal workings of government in the province of Manitoba.

And, oh, they were going to get rid of those squandering socialists that were mucking about in the affairs of the province, and once that was done everything would begin to improve; that order would replace anarchy insofar as the financial management of Manito ba is concerned. Mr. Speaker, the sad fact is and the indictment of this government is, that per person debt in Manitoba has increased from $3, 000 and some to $3, 800 and some, an increase of $800 per person in the past two years under their alleged skilful! financial management of the province of Manitoba.

If that is what we call fin ancial management then let us protect Manitobans from such management in the future. Mr. Speaker, in addition we are faced with cutbacks involving restraint exer cises, cutbacks which have affected the northern communities - and my northern colleagues could address themselves at length to what is happening in northern Manitoba - but unemployment rates of 75, BO percent. The Member for Churchill states that in some communities, 90 percent. And we witness no planning, no plan ning on the part of the government of the day to address themsel ves to that problem.

We witness no action on the part of that government across the way to attempt to ensure that working men and women in northern Manitoba do not continue to be inflicted with the dole, so that they can again ensure that they contribute usefully to the social and economic life of the province. In fact, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, this government has given little attention to the north since the election in 1977• We have a situation by which health care has been cut in Manitoba, where moneys have been diverted that were intended for use in the Province of Manitoba for health care - moneys were diverted and were not matched dollar for dollar by this administration for the improvement and the stabilization of health care in Manitoba - where personal care per diems have been increased, where Pharmacare costs have been sharply increased, and where we find that in hospitals there are increasing complaints involving service.

Whether it be Concordia, Misericordia, Winnipeg General Hospital, rural hospitals, the story is the same. We applaud, Mr. Deputy Speaker, some action on the part of this government to build some additional hospitals, some addition al personal care homes. But, Mr. - 1856 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 Speaker, in so many cases it is being done by way of construction of private per sonal care homes, too little too late. Profit, Mr. Speaker, is being re-entered into health care in this province to further expansion of personal care homes in Manitoba. And, Mr. Deputy Speaker, let me make it clear to you that the Opposition, when we form government, we will ensure as a matter of first priority, that we minimize profit in the care of our elderly and our ill in this province. The care of our elderly and ill ought not to be done on a profit basis. Then, Mr.

Speaker, we have the information which has come to light this last few days of increasing cost being imposed on ratepayers. You know, in the First Minister's statement, he saw a vision in which there would be improvement in education quality, where the children of this province would enjoy greater avenues for opportunities and educational programs. He forecasted there would be an assumption by the Province of Manitoba of 80 percent of the costs of education. Mr. Speaker, we've been going downhill ever since then.

In the City of Winnipeg school divisions we are now faced with a situation just this year where there are increases of $117 in the average home in Seven Oaks; $102 in the average home in St. Vital; an increase of $99 in Transcona; in the City of Winnipeg an increase of $96. 00. One could go on and on.

The Member for La Verendrye is not present but I notice that the special levy pertained to school divisions in Hanover School Division is a 23 percent increase and most of the other school divisions, and all any member need do is go to our library, choose the weekly newspapers, glance over the front pages of those weekly newspapers. That member wil l then see the shell game that is being exercised in the Province of Manitoba, how this government is shifting more and more costs onto the already burdened backs of the Manitoba ratepayers and how they are being in flicted with additional costs.

Because this government, just as the Minister of Education was doing a few minutes ago, is shuffling off their responsibility onto our local governments in the Province of Manito ba, Mr. Speaker. That sort of a situation must be brought to a stop in Manitoba if the children of the future in Manitoba are to receive the benefits that they rightly deserve. Mr. Speaker, then we find an additional situation where we have tuition fee increases in community college, Red River Community College, universities; third increase in three years, an increase in each of three years to university students in this province.

But the most damnable situation, Mr. Speaker, is not only are they inflicted with a tuition rate increase in each of the past three years but upon graduation, despite the promise by the First Minister of this province, few of them have any hope of enjoying permanent security and jobs in the province of Manitoba; they are forced to leave the Province of Manitoba to find useful employment outside our boundaries. High tuition fees in Manitoba, jobs outside the Province of Manitoba; is that the pledge? Is that the realization of the vision that the First Minister proclaimed for our young people in this province? Mr.

Speaker, we see the affects of their policies pertaining to the economy. We have witnes sed the affects of their policies pertaining to education, to health and to other social services in this province. They have, by their policies, made the human condition of the average Manitoban worse well off today in 1980 than the average person was in 1977. And by any test that one can exercise today in Manitoba, this government has failed.

They have failed whether it be from a con cern for humankind through health and educational programs; they have failed whether we ascertained their skills and financial management of the province, which they have not undertaken and whether they have managed the economy of the Province of Manitoba in a method that you would anticipate that a reasonable government would manage the economy. In each and every criteria they have failed. Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, they have failed miserably. And, Mr. Speaker, as a result of that, I would like to make some sugggestions to the Minister of Finance.

And I would hope that the Minister of Finance would accept those suggest ions in the manner by which they are presented to him. To attempt to ensure that the Minister of Finance and his colleagues will depart from the road of laissez-faire, no nothing activity , to a path which will lead towards activity in order to at last again attempt to bring about some regeneration of the economy of Manitoba and improve the lot of the average Manitoban in this, a difficult time throughout all Canada. - 1857 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 But it is a time that requires some decisive action. It is a time that re quires activist government. It is an occasion that requires a governme nt which has some imagination and not a government which is stuck in the mire of its own lack of imagination and thrust. -- (Interjection)-- And the Member for Emerson says, "Spend some more money •1 • I would like to suggest that the Member for Emerson read a book which might be useful to him. Professor Barbour wrote an ex cellent book which was just distributed only a few days ago dealing with in flation, deficits, the economy and, Mr .

Speaker, I thought Professor Barbour did an excellent job of putting aside one of the myths and, obviously, the Member for Emerson hasn't read Professor Barbour's account. There is a myth going its way that deficits, government deficits, create inflation, push up prices, and I •v e heard that repeatedly from members across the way. 1962 to 1975, Professor Barbour points out that governments in Canada, provincial and federal, were run ning surpluse s. And interestingly, Mr .

Speaker, it was during that period, 19 62 to 1974, that we moved from the low inflation rate of somewhere in the area of 3 percent to record . inflation rate, from 3 percent to record inflation rate, Mr. Speaker. And, Mr . Speaker, the reason, unfortunately, that we are now in a situation of increasing deficits, whether it be federal or whether it be province to province, is because provincial governments and federal government are now following the path of nee-c onserva tism.

Nee-conservatism which has brought about a decline in economic activity; which had lessened economic stimulation; which has thrown away all the useful tools that can be undertaken in order to bring about a revival of the economy. And, Mr . Speaker, therefore, it can be no surprise to any that we are now witnessing amongst the highest deficit s that this country has ever seen. Deficits, Mr . Speaker, have occurred simultaneously with nee-cons ervative econ omics in the province of Manito ba. You know, to ask Conservativ es to do something about deficits is to treat somebody suffering from diarrhea with Ex- Lax.

That's about the type of comparison that I would like to make, Mr . Speaker. That's about as effective they are in dealing with deficits, inflation and all the other ills of the economy . Mr. Speaker, first, the most obvious problem confronting us is interest rates and we're going to address that problem as legislato rs. Four or five years ago, we were facing interest rates of 10, 11 percent; now we're confronted with inter est rates of 15 and 16 percen t.

Mortgages coming up for renewal, additional monthly payments of $150, $200 a month - the average working man and woman can't afford that addition al monthly payment - 20, 000 mortgages estimated to be coming up for renewal this year. Some 10, 000 of those mortgage holders will be in the province of Manitoba. The federal government has come up with an inept sort of policy to assist about 2, 000 of those homeowners through the Assisted Home Ownership Program, those that had purchased homes, but no fundamental approach to the overall problem confronting homeowners faced with renewal of their mortgages.

And I would like to suggest that the government do examine a number of alter natives, and the government have the research at hand. We once had a Planning Secretariat that developed some plans for Manitoba, that looked ahead for five years, that were ensured that we avoided the mountains and the valleys.

We made a point of smoothing out the dips in our economy and telling the politic al people what we should be attempting to avoid, unfortunately, we don't have that sort of capacity anymore, but I trust that the Minister of Finance, within his department, has some capacity in order to provide some advice to him on important matters per taining to the Manitoba economy. I assume that and, Mr .

Speaker, through you first, I believe, that this government should undertake a serious study, analysis, as to whether legislation could be introduced to reintroduce a board or a com mission that could examine cases in which mortgages are about to be foreclosed; to ascertain whether or not it would be just to impose a stay, insofar as such mort gage sale proceedings. It might not follow along the lines of the board which was established back in the '30s. There might require to be some changes but, Mr .

Speaker, if someone is being required to pay monthly payments in excess of 30, 35, and 40 percent of their earnings because of forces that are at work outside of their control and their area of responsibility, then surely we, as a provincial community, through our provincial government and through our federal government, have some oblig ation. And especially, when one considers, Mr . Speaker, that the high interest - 1858 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 rate policy of today has been inflicted upon us because of Tory and Liberal inter est rate policies, Tory and Liberal interest rate policies which were introduc ed as a result of "follow the American lead". They allowed the American banking in terest to lead them around by the nose. The average homeowner has had no control over these ci rcumstances. Now, we have a situation in Ottawa where the marketplace is determi ning the rate of inter est.

We even have a worse si tuation by the so-called Liberal government of today which is follow ing the most neo-conservative direction that could be expected. But I call upon this Minister of Finance to undertake some action during this sessi on of the Legislature in order to minimize the sharp impact of rising inter est rates upon Manitoba homeowners. Mr. Speaker, fortunately we have the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporati on. The Manitoba Insurance Corporat ion has in the neighbourhood of some $88 million to $90 million of funds that are available for investment in the province of Manitoba.

Those funds have been invested in our hospitals and our schools, muni cipal debentures. I do not beli eve, Mr. Spe aker, that it would be unreasonable for us to examine as to whether or not those funds realized during this year could not be utilized in order to provide lower int erest rate loans to homeowners under certain circum stances during a period of time in order to minimize the sharp impacts inflicted by int erest rates.

I don't think that would be unreasonable that we would put our own institution, an institution owned by all Manitobans, one giant co-operative, because that's what the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporatio n is, it's a giant co-operati ve owned by one million Manitobans, to put that public insurance corpor ation to work on behalf of Manitobans. And, Mr. Speaker, we wouldn't be able to do that if private insurance was the master of auto insurance in the province of Manitoba today but, fortunately, we have that freedom.

We have that freedom which we obtained in 1971 that we can use our public agency to the advantage and to the benefit of all Manitobans. I call upon the Minis ter of Finance to examine whether or not he can, through the utilization of the funds that will be made available from the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporatio n provide lower inte rest rates to Manitobans . Manitobans then, Mr.

Speaker, and I believe the Minister of Finance would not wish to dispute this, would then clearly ascertain the advantage of ensuring that the moneys that are invested in insurance in Manitoba remain in Manitoba through the operations of their own Public Insurance Corporation. I call upon the Minis ter of Finance to take aside his ideological blinkers and ascertain whether he can use the public agency for the public benefit. Mr.

Speaker, just by way of another suggestion, I think we are blessed in Manitoba that we have a financial institution which is represent ative of pretty well every community in Manit oba, rural or urban, the Credit Union movement, where the moneys are kept in Manitoba, where they're used in the various communities of this province. Millio ns upon millions of dollars are invested by Manitobans in the credit union movement. Let's see if we can't co- ordinate our actions with the credit union movement. Let's ascer tain, Mr.

Speaker, whether or not we can use, in co-operation with the credit unions, the funds of the credit union movement in order to provide loans at lower interest rates to Manitobans. I do not know, the Minister has the research. But are there funds that are presently deposited through the government and its agencies that could just as well be deposited through the credit union movement, wit h the understanding that we return mortgages at lower interest rates which would be provided to homeowners in Manitoba?

How much money could be available to Manitobans through a co- oper ative effort of development with the credit unions in this province? The Minis ter may very well have to demonstrate some special interest in the credit union and the co-operat ive movement of this province. I don't think, Mr. Speaker, we're going to build this province upon a relia nce, upon the huge multi national private sector.

I think if we're going to build this province it's going to be through the public agencies, through the co-operative agencies and through the small private sector in this province, areas that are owned and controll ed by all Manitobans. That's how we're going to build Manitoba. We're going to use those institutions for the bene fit of Manitobans and the credit union movement leads the way, Mr. Speaker, insofar as providing a technique and a means by which we can undertake that. - 1859 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 Then , Mr. Speaker, we are faced with announcements. This government is going to get rid of rent controls. If we are going to have a worsened situation it's because of the high interest rates , a situation by which many homeowners are forced out of their homes and forced onto the rental market. We're now going to be faced with a situation by which rent controls are removed, rents will be in creas ed , the demand will be greater upon rental accommodation.

I ask the Minister, is this the time to remove rent controls in Manitoba , at the very time that homeowners are being forced out of their homes because of foreclos ures? And the Minister disputes my words. If he doubts my words that homeowners are being forced out of their homes in Manitoba, I'd like to refer him to this past Saturday's Winnipeg Tribune. I can remember whether just a small portion of a single page would be consumed by mortgage sale advertisements. The bulk of three pages in the Saturday's Winnipeg Tribune was consumed by mortgage sale advertiseme nts , Mr.

Speaker. --( Interjection )- - 46 orders , one Saturday , advertised in the Winnipeg Tribune. What sort of aotion can we anticipate from the Minister of Finance? Is the Minister of Finance prepared to do something now in order to assist those who are worst affected by this situation in the province of Manitoba?

So we have a situation by which the Minister could be utilizing the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation; could be examining the credit union movement to ascertain whether he can coordinate his efforts there; ascertaining whether or not boards or commissions can be developed on a short-term basis in order to deal with what is a critical interest rate situation in the province of Manitob a, a period of time when the Minister can demonstrate some leadersh ip , if he dare , in the province of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, we in Opposition dare the Minister to exercise the type of leadership than Manitobans are looking to now in this crisis in this province. The other area that I would have thought that this government would have been most concer ned about was the plight of the small business community. More and more bankruptcies are occurring. The Member for Inkster gave us the figures only some three weeks ago , a 40 percent increase in bankruptcies in the space of 1978 to 1979. Much of that can be blamed upon the high interest rate situation. And what is unsettling about that , Mr.

Speaker , is that small business people in Manitoba , because of circumstances beyond their control; because of the market place; because of the rising interest rates , are being gobbled up by the larger economic units in Manitoba , so that we will find a situation in Manitoba fast developing where no longer is a family business the main foundation of the economy of this province but rather it will be the larger corporate units in this province. But there's no assistance being offered to this point, Mr. Speak er, by the government across the way.

And we call upon the government to use its vast re search at its beck and call to see what can be done in order to assist the small businessman interest-ratewise in Manitoba at this time. Just last week I was speaking to one proprietor of a small construction com pany, $11 0, 000 out to the bank, and he had been going along reasonably well over the past several years but now with the cutdown in housing starts , with the de cline in constructi on , with the increase in interest rates , the bank was calling him on his loan.

The small entrepreneur with about a dozen employess working for him was being put out of business; put out of business , another one added to the list of those entering into bankruptcy in the province of Manito ba, one less em ployer in Manitoba. Is that the vision that the First Minister of this province had for the small business community in Manitoba: Less small busine ss, less em ployees hired by the small business community in Manitoba , and no leadership? Then we have the sharp drop , as I've mentioned before , in housing , affordable housing for our low and for low-mid dle income people.

And my colleague from Se ven Oaks says, "Even the higher income people". Mr. Speaker, there is great need for more initiation of various forms of hous ing construction. There's been a sharp slowdown in public housing in Manitoba. There's li ttle being done by way of co-operative housing. The lists of those who are waiting in some communities for public housing is lengthening and lengthen ing. Rents are high. Mortgages are too difficult for most average income earners to undertake and yet we see no housing thrust zeroing in on those who need housing the most. - 1860 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 And there are many parts of Manitoba where affordable housing is required. There are many income groups in Manitoba that affordable housing is now necessary for. We're not over -built everywhere in Manitoba insofar as housing. But let's again see some leadership from across the way. Let us again find some thrust from across the way. Has there been any planning? Has there been any ascertaining as to whether or not the affordable housing needs of all Manitobans are being met or have we no further concern in this regard, Mr. Speaker? Then, Mr. Speaker, we have had the Hydro announcement.

The Minister wasn't here but I made comments pertaining to the hydro sale, the Wes tern Grid. Much of the credit for that, which was cleverly omitted from the statement which was read in this House, must go to the former Premier of this province, Ed Schreyer, who provided the capacity and the infrastructure in order to ensure that there could be hydro sal es. Mr.

Sp eaker, that reminds me of the despicable conduct on the part of the Minister of Finance at the time that the Tritsc hler Commission Report was issued, when he went out of his way to attempt to libel the former Premier of this prov ince on a 24-hour program, one of the most despicab le exercises that I've wit nessed for a long time on the part of a Minister of the Crown. But we've had a situation by which Limestone has been delayed and wil l continue to be del ayed. Even if they're to start now that compl etion would n't take place till 1986 or 1987. And the Minister refers repeat edly to over-construction.

The other side of the ledger is that we're going to pay higher interest rates; the costs will be higher when we eventua lly build Limeston e, all because of delay, Mr. Speaker. So again, there has been no le adership, no thrust, on the part of the government across the way. Then, Mr. Speaker, we've had no indication from the Minister whether or not the Property Tax Credit, which was frozen back in 1977 , will be adjusted to meet the cost of living increases this year, 1980.

In fact, we haven't even received the White Paper yet; and it was the Throne Speech in 1980 when the Throne Speech indicated, and I would read; this is back in the February 15 , 1979, Throne Sp eech : "It is the intention of the government to issue a White Paper during the next few months which will as far as possi ble make recommendations to rationalize all related programs under an effective del ivery system that best ensures that con tinued financial support is provided to those most in need". Wel l, we haven't received that White Paper yet.

There's been no adjustments in the Property Tax Credit system in Manitoba. Not only is the burden of taxation at the local ratepay er· le vel bein g increased be cause this government is sl oughing off its responsib ilities insofar as providing assistan ce to the education ratepayer, but they're also abdicating any responsibility to ensure that the Property Tax Credit is adjusted on the annual basis to meet the demands brought about by rising inflation. No action now, since 1977.

We call upon the Minister of Finance to announce today, or to announce during his Budget, an adjustment in respect to Property Tax Credit that will ensure that the situation which has been introduced by his government since 1977 is remedied by the appropriate adjustment in Property Tax Credits which haven't taken place in the last three years. Mr. Speaker, in conclu sion, this government has struck a blow at the heart of the economy in Manitob a. Their policies have not contributed to any lessening of the economic impact brought about upon the economy of this province from outside circumstances.

In fact, their policies have aggravated the economic situation in Manitoba. They have struck a blow at the heart of the economic life in Manitoba. They have fostered imprudent economic measures and financial gimmicks that have not contributed to the well -being of Manitobans. They have fostered pol icies which have not improved the human condition of Manitobans.

They have fostered policies which haven't even brought about economic growth in Manitoba but have placed Manitoba in a worsening position vis-a-vis other provinces in Canada from where Manitobans stood in 1977· I assert that this government, in its unplanned manner, in its doctrinaire manner, in the red-baiting that is often exercised by the First Minister, has mucked about for two and a half years in Manitoba and mucked about and sl opped about in such a way, Mr. Speaker, that we have been affected negatively and adversely from an economic perspective, from a social perspective and from an - 1861 -

Monday, 31 March, 19 80 indi victual perspective, and we call upon this government now, finally, after two-and-a-half years of failure to adopt some leadership, some qualities of action, in order to remedy the present plights, the present problems, in Manitoba. That's our challenge to the Minister of Finance. We await his response, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR.

USKIW: The Member of the Opposition has, it appears, not been able to penetrate the mind of the Minister of Finance, at least not at this point in the debate, and perhaps the Minister of Finance wants to capture the contributions of all members of the House before he responds. But I would have thought that after the tirade that he just had to experience from the Leader of the Opposition that he would have wanted to respond now. Mr.

Speaker, I want to deal firstly with the question that was raised with the Minister of Finance, over a period of days, through a series of questions that he has failed to respond to in what I would consider an adequate manner. And that has to do, Mr. Speaker, with the fact that the Minister is trying to mislead the people of Manitoba into believing that he has no capacity and no control to pre vent what is now taking place, Mr. Speaker, namely the demands on the part of his department for refunds from couples who were married in 1978 and who, according to the Minister's latest

interpretation, should not have received their property tax rebates as individuals prior to the marriage, but only that one of the two should claim the tax rebate depending of course of who had the highest income for the whole year. And, Mr. Speaker, that particular

interpretation is a new

interpretation, and that

interpretation was brought to the attention of the Department of Finance in Manitoba by Revenue Canada, as I understand it. The Manitoba authorities had to make the decision whether they would continue with the existing interpre tation, the

interpretation from Day One to the end of 1978, or whether they would go along with the recommendations of Revenue Canada and give the Revenue Canada people their wish; and that was that it should be the new interpretaton in order to con form with what Revenue Canada alleges is what is taking place in other provinces in Canada. Although notwithstanding that point, Mr. Speaker, I am given to under stand that Ontario still gives the original

interpretation that Manitobans enjoyed prior to this change and that's something that of course can be checked out. But in any event, Mr. Speaker, the Minister, in response to questions put to him this afternoon, indicated to the Legislature that really the fault lies, if there is a fault, it lies with the previous government, in that they didn't properly draft the legislation when it was presented and passed in this Chamber. Well, Mr. Speaker, if that is so, that of course is nothing new in that tens of thousands of pieces of legislation passed by governments throughout Canada, governments everywher e, that may not have the kind of clear

interpretation that was intended. It's usually an oversight that creates this kind of a problem, an oversight on the part of the Legislative draftsmen, and indeed the people who have had to peruse the legislation whether it be the government or members of opposition. All of us are involved in that process, Mr. Speaker. But that doesn't mean, Mr. Speaker, that because there is a degree of confusion on certain sections of any kind of legislation that past practice has no rel evance. It doesn't mean that in this instance that the Minister of Finance could not have instructed Revenue Canada to ignore their

interpretation and to continue on with the

interpretation that Manitobans enjoyed from the very first day and very first year of the Tax Rebate Program. Now, Mr. Speaker, if the government is seeking additional revenue, surely this is not a credible way of achieving that goal, Mr. Speaker, because I don't believe that there are tremendous amounts of dollars involved. You know, I can't quantify it. I am sure the Minister will quantify it in his response. But I don't believe that it amounts to a great deal of money as far as the revenues to the Province of Manitoba are concer ned, Mr. Speaker. But what has it done?

What does that dec ision do to the individuals involved, Mr. Speaker? Well, it requires that they have a reassessment on their 1978 taxation year. It means that they have to find - 1862 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 money in 1980 to pay for the reassessed 1978 taxation year or to refund to the Minister of Finance of the Province of Manitoba certain sums of money. Some people may have money readily available; others may not, and therefore, it may create some hardship for some people to do that. But the other problem is, Mr. Speaker, that it frustrates the whole system, I have had communic ation from a number of people that are involved in the filing of returns in a commerc ial way. And they insis t, Mr.

Speaker, that they have from time to time checked with the tax credit authorities in Manitoba, prior to this new int erpretation, and wer e always given the ori ginal int erpretation. So it is not that they were employing a device that was incorrect, they were employing a device that was approved by the authorities in the Department of Finance over the years. And, Mr. Speaker, the information, the new inter pretaton wasn't known to them until after they completed filing their returns for 1978 tax year. And so we find ourselves in a retroa ctive situation.

And the Minister now says, "Well, I can't pass retroactive tax legi slation. " Now, Mr. Speaker, that very statement demonstrates the weakness of his position, because I don't think anyone is asking that he pass retroact ive tax legislation. He could continue to int erpret the tax credit laws as they were inter preted and simply advise the Revenue Canada people to continue to do the same, and if he feels uncomfortable about that, having been given notice that there is some questi on as to that

interpretation, he could bring in a bill in this Assembly on a moment's notice, Mr. Speaker. And we certainly wouldn't oppose that kind of an amendment to that legislation, to alleviate the problems for those par ti cular groups of people who did marry in 1978 and who now find themselves retro actively assessed. So, Mr. Speaker, I suggest to the Minis ter that he would receive complete co-operation from this side of the House. We will give him first, second, and third reading in one day if he wanted it, Mr. Speaker. But it's obvi ous he doesn't want to do that. Mr.

Speaker, I am sure that this Minister wants the tax revenue, he doesn't want to interpret the legislation as it was intended to be interpreted. Now, Mr. Speaker, what is wrong with a person who was not married in 1978 for six months of the year, to have claimed the tax credi ts for that six -month period, or for both parties for that matter, and then what is wrong wit h the remainder of the year being claimed by the spouse who had the highest income? I can't under stand. what is wrong with that arrangement, Mr. Speaker.

I would hope the Minis ter would be in a position to explain to us why that can't continue to work. But in any event, to suggest that it would now mean having to pass retroactive legis lation, Mr. Speaker, that is not an answer satisfactory to members on this side, be cause it is not retroactive legislation that he would have to pass on taxation; because what he would be doing is passing a bil l that would give him powers to rebate retroactively, not to tax retroactively. And there is quite a difference, Mr. Speaker.

Yes, I agree with the Minister that it's not proper, or one should try not to tax retroactively, but what we are suggesting here is to rebate retro actively to those people who have had their taxes for 1978 reassessed and who are now receiving those assessment notices and are caught in the position of having to repay to the Department of Finance in 1980 for somethi ng that occurred in 1978 , and something over which they have no notice of from this tax department or from any tax department.

But on the contrary, were advised to continue filing their tax returns as they have been accustomed to for several years; by his staff, Mr. Speaker. Surely it is not asking too much for this Minister to consider the scenario of events that took place until this point in time and encourage him, Mr. Speaker, to bring in a bil l if he feels uncomfortable in proceeding without an amendment to the legislation and give it swift passage through this Assembly so that we would not harass tens of thousands of people in Manitoba who happened to get married in 1978. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to suggest to the Minis ter that usually in the year of marriage, couples are led to expect congratulatory messages. They are accustomed to accepting gifts, Mr. Speaker. But in this ex ample, the gift is go ing to the Minister of Finance, and I don't think, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Finance truly would like the married couples of 1978 to give him gifts be cause of their marriage; I don't think so. I would hope that he would take cognizance - 186 3 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 of the arguments that are being put forward and that he would bring about amend ments that would resolve that problem and alleviate the situation for those numbers of people. Now, Mr. Speaker, we are now part way through the Third full Session of this Legislat ure, and I think it's fair to say that in your Third Session of a new Legislature, which is almost the expiry date of the government's term of office, that one should be in a sound position to assess the government's success or fail ure. And I simply want to point out, Mr.

Speaker, that this government came into office on the basis of promises that they would reduce Manitoba's per capita debt; that they would get the economy moving better than it was in 1977; that they would waste less money than did the previous governmen t, and so on. There was a whole series of propaganda documents but the main one, Mr. Speaker, had to do with the fact that the New Democrats were spending money recklessly and indebting the people of this province beyond logic, beyond reason, only to fulfil! their spend ing thrills, if you like, for programs that people didn't ask for or didn't want. Now, Mr.

Speaker, they said that they were going to reduce the deficit. That's what they said, or the debt, rather. We find, Mr. Speaker, this is now the Third Session, the third full Session - it's the fourth, actually - but it's the third full Session, wherein we have to consider the government's Estimates and its Budget, and we find that this province hasn't reduced debt by one penny, by one dollar, by a hundred. Mr. Speaker, we have increased our debt by several hundred millions of dollars. -- (Interjection )- - Yes. We have increased our debt by sev eral hundred millions of dollars in the last couple of years, Mr.

Speaker. And so, Mr. Speaker, if the per capita debt in 1977 was a problem to the people of Manitoba and was an unbearable burden. Yes, the Leader of the Opposition points out quite rightly that the arguments were being made that that kind of per capita debt would bankrupt this province. Well, I want to ask the Minister whether a per capita debt, several hundred mill ion dollars greater than it was two years ago, whether that isn't bankrupting the province, Mr. Speaker. Obviously, Mr.

Speaker, the game that the Tories played was nothing other than the con game that was al luded to so often by the former leader of the Liberal party. They also said that they were going to get Manitoba moving again. Now, I don't know what that meant. You know, usually that implied that there was something good that was going to happen if they only got their hands on the reins of govern ment in this province.

Well, you know, the Member for Inkster is right; he says they did get Manitoba moving again but they moved them out, because we have a net out-migration figure of somewhere in the order of 21 , 000 people over two years. I don't know what the third year is going to be, I suspect it will be about an ac cumulation of 30 ,0 00 by the end of year three. And, yet, they will say but look at our unemployment statistics are not too bad, they're not good, but relative to the rest of Canada we' re in third place, or we' re in fourth, or somewhere in there, that seems to be reasonable. Well, Mr.

Speaker, they cannot respond in that way alone while they ignore the fact that they have exported a lot of Manitoba talent that moved out to other parts of this country and into the United States, they cannot ignore that fact. In realizing their current unemployment statistics they had to export 21, OOO people over two years, Mr. Speaker, and I don't know how many in the current year. Now we witness, Mr. Speaker, not only an out-migration, not only slower econ omic activity, but we witness a lower level of government services. The Minister of Labour has lowered the minimum wages in this province, Mr.

Speaker, something that I could never have believed it could be done in inflationary times. The idea that anyone would think in terms of some people having to work for less money next year than what they received this year with 20 percent interest rates, and 15 per cent inflation rates and so on. It just doesn't add up, Mr. Speaker. I don't know how the Minister of Finance, and the Minister of Labour, and the Premier of this province justify a reduction in the take-home pay of a number of people in this province who were previously covered by The Minimum Wage Act. I can't under stand that kind of thinking, Mr.

Speaker. Where is the logic? The logic should be the reverse, that we should narrow the gap between low wage earners and high wage earners, that's where the logic lies. If there's going to be fairness and equity and any semblance of economic democracy, Mr. Speaker, then we have to narrow those gaps. This government has widened those gaps, and they are saying we are going to rely on the charity of the patrons of these businesses to make up the - 1864 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 difference. That's what they are saying, Mr. Speaker, they're going to rely on the charity of people who patronize the hotel industry and the restaur ant industry in the hope that might satisfy the logical income demands of people working in those businesses. Well, Mr. Speaker, that is not good enough and I truly believe that we have to move in the direction of dramatically closing the wage gap.

We have to move dramatically, because it is obvious to me and I'm sure it must be to members opposite that people that are trying to make a living out of minimum wages are finding themselves in one hell of a spot these days trying to keep households go ing and trying to meet the rental payments. I don't know, I guess a car is out of the question for that group in our society, Mr. Speaker, and so, there is a real problem that has to be addressed. We have also witnessed a very dramatic increase in user fees in every field over the last couple of years.

Another means of taxation which, you know, I have to admit is hard to notice, because it's in small amounts but if you quantify it by the number of people that use these services you will find that it adds up to millions and millions of dollars, Mr. Speaker. And this was all done in order to offset revenue losses, revenue losses created by certain tax relief measures that members opposite provided for the elite of this province. Something that is not necessary and wasn't needed wasn't asked for, Mr. Speaker.

I don't believe that the groups that they were giving tax relief to were facing obvious bankruptcy if they didn't get these tax measures in the last couple of years. I don't believe that was the case. But, in any event, this government's philosophy was to tax the little people a little hard, and to provide some tax relief to those who already had surplus capital, to spend capital that they could invest to make more money, Mr. Speaker. Those are their priorities. We also witness, Mr.

Speaker, a very hefty increase in property taxation at the same time that we find a freeze, we witness a freeze on the Property Tax Rebates from 1977 on not a dollar more in tax relief on property, Mr. Speaker, since 1977. And we find this government, in trying to balance their account s according to their philosophy, passing on these burdens again on people least able to cope with such increases. Now we have, Mr.

Speaker, the spectacle and it is a spectacle of our capital istic system burstin g at the seams, mortgage interest rates going through the ceiling without government, whether it's federal or provincial, bat ting an eye lash. Who is proposing that we deal with the question of mortgage renewals this year? I haven't heard a thing from this Minister about what he is going to do about several thousand Manitobans who are facing this year, some of them faced it last year, mortgage renewals which, Mr. Speaker, they cannot afford.

Increases of $150, $200 a month on their payments because of the change in the interest rate. Now this is something that has to be dealt with. I don't think that it's suf ficient to say that we have no capacity. I think there is capacity, Mr. Speaker, and I don't know what the Minister's position is with respect to Government of Canada policy on capital outflow out of this country. I don't know that it's wrong to advocate that we start to interfere with the capital outflow that takes place, money investmen t capital that flows out of Canada to other countries.

It seems to me that's an avenue that we should be looking at in order to provide more capital for loan purposes within Canada and, in that way, hopefully reduce the interest rates for Canadians. You know, they say if we don't keep up with American interest rates, that our investors will send all of their money south of the border. Well, let's put a block at the border, Mr.

Speaker, if that's the problem and let's contain that capital supply within this country that would provide for lower interest rates for the needs of Canadians, whether they be business people or people wanting to meet their mortgage payments on their new homes. Now, that's something that should be looked at, and the Department of Finance is equipped to look at that, or at least it should be if it isn't and it should be in a position to make recommendati ons to the Government of Canada on whether or not this is a practical solution, at least on a temporary basis.

Perhaps not forever, but maybe for the next year or six months until things level off, but certainly until the situation stabilizes south of the border, Mr. Speaker, because there it's obviously out of control. And I don't know why we have to be so severely affected by events elsewhere, unless we have exhausted every opportunity and all the tools that we have at our disposal in - 1865 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 trying to deal with those pro blems. I don't believe we should accept imported problems if there is still some means of dealing with them. Now, Mr. Speaker, the leader of our party did suggest to the Minister of Finance that there are things that the Province of Manitoba could look at, where they have constitutional control, and that is with the lending institutions that answer to this Minister and to this government in this province. Yes, he can hide behind the fact that he can't control monetary policy in Canada because that is a national responsibility constitutionally.

But he can't hide the fact, Mr. Speaker, that he has control over hundreds of millions of dollars that are handled by institutio ns, financial institutions in this province over which he has juris diction and there might be room there for some negotiation and co-o peration, as between the government and those financial institutions in this province, in order to deal with the interest rate situation that we now have. And the other, Mr.

Speaker, obviously is demonstrated by the fact that there is a vehicle that this Minister has if he wishes to employ it, and that is the capital funds that flow through the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. Has this Minister looked at the option of using some of that capital in the financing or refinancing of mortgages on homes, Mr. Speaker? Now, I'm not suggesting that the Minister take over all the mortgages in this province because that is not physically possible for Manitoba to do, but I think that the Minister can look at distress case mortgages, Mr.

Sp eaker, that where there is an individual who cannot make the adjustments on the mortgage rate and was forced to • • • MR. SPE AKER: Order, order please. I'm interrupting proceedings at this time for Private Members' Hour. At the completion of Private Members' business, the honourable member will have 15 minutes remaining. PRIVATE MEMBERS' HOUR MR. SPE AKER: We're now under Private Members' Hour, the first item of business is Resolution No. 6. RESOLUTION NO. 6 - SALE OF McKENZIE SEED COMPANY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster has 11 minutes. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Spe aker, I was speaking on this resolution when the House was last in session, and indicated that I had some problems with the manner in which the resolution seeks to deal with this question since it merely expresses concern that the House register disapproval of the breaking of a commitment given by the Leader of the Conservative Party to the electorate. And I think, Mr.

Speaker, that if we were to be dealing with problems in that way we would have this House being concerned and expressing regret with respect to a whole host of things, which really wouldn't change what is occurring with respect to the govern ment's intentions. I did indicate, Mr. Spe aker, that it was my view that the Conservative admin istration was determined to divest itself of McKenzie Seeds Limited. I also in dicated, Mr.

Speaker, that it is my view that they intend to divest themselves of this company, not because it is a non-viable company; that indeed, their purpose in divesting themselves of this company is exactly the opposite; that they wish to divest themselves of this company because it has proved to be viable, and that it shows prospects of being viable in the future. And if there is anything that smacks against the doctrine of Progressive Conservatism, it is that anything that the public does can be viable. And in that, Mr. Spe aker, they judge the public by themselves.

They know that they can't do anything right and, therefore, if they as a government cannot do anything right, ipso facto, in their opinion, no govern ment representing the public, no embodiment of the public will can do anything right and, therefore, they say get rid of this company. If you permit it to exist, it will be a problem in terms of proving Progressive Conservatism. And that has, Mr. Speaker, been the attitude of the Conservative government with re gard to all of the companies that they have dealt with.

And for those who are putting into currency, the position that the companies operated well and badly under the public sector and well under the private sector, Mr. Speaker, let me - 1866 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 make a list. Virtually none of the companies that went bad in public hands were companies that had been successful in private hands, Mr. Speaker. As a matter of fact, the reverse is true; if we look at the problems that the public endured with some of the companies, we know that Flyer Coach Industries was a problem in private hands. It came to the public to be saved, and the public tried, and, Mr. Speaker, I still have hope for that company although not in the hands of the Conservatives. Versatile Manufacturing, Mr. Speaker, was a company that was completely wiped out in private hands.

There wasn't a private financial institution that would do anything for Versatile. The principals of that company were the most anti -government people you could find. They were more anti-government people than any of the people sitting in the Conservative benches. They came, they gave; pride goeth before a fall, Mr. Speaker. These people who said that they would completely stay away from government crawled on their hands and knees, Mr. Speaker, crawled on their hands and knees. Mr. Speaker, I was there. They crawled on their hands and their knees. Mr.

Speaker, they said, "No bank will bail us out; nobody will give us money; nobody in the private sector", Mr. Speaker, "will do anything for us. Would the public please help us?" And as a result of the public of Manitoba making a $6 million commitment to the bank, which they then didn't have to draw down upon because the bank had the government's commitment that if it ever went bad they could come back to the public, that company is the highest sales manufacturing company in the Province of Manitoba. It wasn't done by the private sector; it was done by the public sector. Mr.

Speaker, all of those companies • • • Morden Fine Foods, was a private com pany that abandoned Morden and went broke. The Cybershare was a private computer company that went broke. It made a success in the private sector. Columbia Forest Products was a private company that went broke. Dormond Industry went broke with it. Dormond Industry was run publicly and made a profit, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, CCIL is a private company that was in trouble, Mr. Speaker, was in trouble, went to the public of Canada, the public of Manitoba, the public of Saskatchewan, the public of Alberta, to bail it out.

I hope that we did, but if it's a success it will be a public success; it was a failure in the private sector, Mr. Speaker. That is a fact. All of those things are true; they happened. Well, the Member for River Heights is shaking his head. He is suggesting these things didn't happen. Every single one of these things happened, Mr. Speaker. Saunders Aircraft was a private company, Mr. Speaker, that was having difficulty and needed a new place to go and, Mr.

Speaker, with Saunders Aircraft, the public of Manitoba was putting up $9 million excuse me, that's not correct the public of Canada was putting up $9 million a year into Gimli of public funds to dress people, to feed them, to clothe them, to house them, to have them equipped. None of it was to the benefit of the increased wealth of the Province of Manitoba. For several years, at a rate of approximately much less than $9 million a year, we were producing airplanes. And we didn't make a success of it, Mr.

Speaker, which I suppose puts us in the same category as Chrysler, because Chrysler went to the United States and they didn't ask for $40 million; they asked for billions of dollars, Mr. Speaker, to bail them out and the Canadian government is now going to bail out Chrysler Canada. -- (Interjection)-- Mr. Speaker, he says the unions were backing them. Sure the unions were backing them. The unions were backing Flyer, too, and Saunders. Does it make it right? My honourable friend has found a new endorser. He says if the unions are backing them, it's right. That's what the Member for Morden said. Well, Mr.

Speaker, all I'm indicating is that the Conservatives cannot stand the embarrassment of a company which is viable and they will, Mr. Speaker, dispose of McKenzie Seeds, no matter if this resolution is passed, and therefore I say, that this resol ution doesn't do enough. But, Mr. Speaker, in law my friend, the Attorney-General is here, and the Member for Crescentwood is here, and some of the others will recognize it even though they are not lawyers we have a doctrine it's called "caveat emptor", which is the Latin of, "Let the buyer beware". And what I said in the House, Mr.

Speaker, last time, I repeat: The way to deal with these people is not to talk to the blocks, stones, worse than senseless things, on the other side of the House, it is no sense talking to them; we have to talk over - 1867 -

Monday, 31 March, 1 980 their heads to the prospective purchaser and say to that purchaser, caveat emptor, "Let the buyer beware. " This company can be privateered by one government but it can be repossessed by another government.

And those who are going to privateer should know that all they're going to get back although I don't think they are going to put up any cash because the general theory of this government is to give for nothing and to give a little money besides but all that they can back is the cash that they have put up, a reasonable rate of interest for the length of time that it was outstanding, and then it will be returned to the public. And if, Mr.

Speaker, if these people, during the period of their management, engage in such mismanagement as to cause the company to deteriorate, that will be reduced from the amount of cash they put up and the amount of interest that they would otherwise have accruing to them. And so, Mr. Speaker, because I believe in being nice to these people, in pro tecting them, and in warning them, that what they are doing is going to be a problem; I would move, Mr.

Speaker, seconded by the Member for Winnipeg Centre; That Resolution .N o. 6, be amended as follow s: By adding thereto the followi ng : "And be it further resolved that this House give notice to prospective purchasers that a new government will reverse any privateering of McKenzie Seeds and will reimburse any purchaser only to the extent of actual cash outlay plus interest, as a maximum, to be offset by any deterioration caused to the company by any mismanagement while under private contr ol. " MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR.

GARY FILMON: On a point of order. How can the motion speak for any new government? Should it not be for a new Democratic government? MR. SPE AKER : The honourable member, I would think, is probably trying to debate. The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER : On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, and I have no doubt that the amendment will not succeed but, in unlikely event that it did, is not the motion out of order on the basis that it is a charge against public revenue? MR. SPEAKER : I cannot rule this out, as it is not a charge against the present administration. I find the resolution to be in order.

The Honourable Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport. HON. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendr ye) : Mr. Speaker, this is the second resolution that we're dealing with in regard to McKenzie Seeds. I want to make a few comments with regard to not only what this particular government has done in the last little while but also with regard to some of the statements made by members op posite.

The Member for Inkster, in spea king to this resolution several weeks ago, got on to a very interest ing topic and, really, if we were to sort of follow his an alogy on the problems of McKenzie's and some of the other governments companies which had a bad debt equity-ratio, really what he was saying is that if we just keep on putting the money in and never really take stock to see what we've really got, we really haven't lost anything. Mr. Speaker, that's really what he was saying.

He was saying that this partic ular government was giving the private sector, in some of the companies that we sold, was giving them a handout. For instance, he mentioned Morden of $2 million. Mr. Speaker, what he didn't tell you though, is that when we had assets such as Saunders Aircraft and I pointed this out to him last year Saunders Aircraft was on the books for $1. 2 million; that was an asset; but, Mr. Speaker, he will be the first to say that that was not an asset worth $1. 2 million. But, Mr.

Speaker, until Saunders Aircraft was put into receivership, using his argu ment, the taxpayer never lost a cent. Well, Mr. Speaker, that's what he is say- - 1868 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 ing. Mr. Speaker, he has not taken into co nsideration that the problems with this company. It has never rec eived any public funds, as far as write -offs are conc erned, but if you keep putting money into a co mpany and advancing loans for something that you don't have there, eventually the day of rec koning comes. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN : I will ask the honourable member a question if he will permit me.

Was not every cent advanced to Saunders with a very minimal amount for asset shown as a loss immediately on the reserve of the Manitoba Development Corporation? It was shown as a loss in the years that it was advanced and there fore, it was displayed as a loss long before it went into rec eivership. MR. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, I beli eve that was the case under

Part 2 of the Act. In other words, that the ••• -- (Interje ctio n)- - MR. SPEAKER : Order please. May I suggest to honourable members that we are into a relatively short period of time and I would hope that all members are given every opportu nity to make their speech, relatively uninterrupted. The Honourable Member of Fitness and Amateur Sport. MR. BANMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, to co ntinue on that line, the member has used Saunders as a particular example, as I did before. But let's revert back to the Morden si tuation. Let's revert to the Morden si tuation.

The member has, on several opinions, said that the $2 million was a give-away to the private sector. The only thing that he doesn't realize, Mr. Speaker, is that the assets there did not nearly represe nt the $3 million that we had invested. And somewhere in the sense of busin ess there has to be a relationship between the debt and the equity. And if you keep pumping money into a company and don't face the day of rec koning when that note co mes due, as we are, Mr. Speaker, with McKenzi e's. We have a debt load of this company which far outstrips the asset that we have. And, Mr.

Speaker, I tell the Member for Inkster that he was part of a government in 1974 when a $3 million loan was advanced by MDC to this particular company and that they knew at that time that they had no equity with regards to that loan. But, Mr. Speaker, the argument that he uses in the real world of business finance just doesn't hold any water. Mr. Speaker, the thing that I mentioned the other day that I guess annoys a lot of us on this side is the sort of "holier than thou" and sort of the self -righteous atti tude in which members opposite have approached this partic ular situation. I have chec ked back, Mr.

Speaker, and I suggest to the Member for Inkster that he and the then Minister of Agriculture were instruc ted in a Cabinet Minute by the Red Committee of Cabinet to try and search out a buyer for McKenzie Seeds. Mr. Speaker, the records show for itsel f. In other words, Mr. Speaker, in 1974 a sub -committee of Cabinet rec ommended to the then Minis ter of Agricul ture and the Minister in charge of the Manitoba Develop ment co rporat ion that they search out a buyer. -- (Interjec tion)-- Mr. Speaker, it's documented, it's on the public rec ord. MR. GREEN: Does it say that I sought a buyer? MR. BANMAN : Mr.

Speaker, I don't know what you did in the private confines of your office. I don't know. But all I know is that the sub-committee of Cabinet instruc ted you to find one. -- (Interje ct ion)- - Well, Mr. Speaker, there's one. -- (Interje ctio n) -- Mr. Speaker, the biggest problem that we have with regard to this company is that we have been trying in a rational way to try and find a way which this co mpany co uld be strengthened and not be a tax drain on the taxpayers of Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, I want to just refer today to one piece which somebody has drawn to my attention dealing with the former Minister in charge of McKenzie Seeds. He gets up here and in self- indignation says how he has always wanted the co mpany to stay within the co nfines of the government; it should always be run by the prov ince. He has never at no time - and I quote from a press release which he made - 1869 -

Monday , 31 March, 1980 the other day on March 7: "At no time did I, as the Minister responsible for McKenzie See ds , 1970 -77, solicit or cause to be solicited a potential buyer for McKenzie Seeds". I say to you, Mr. Speaker, that's false. And I say to you, Mr. Speaker , that the record shows that that is false. Mr. Speaker, let's just look at some of the statements of a then new Minister back in 1970 dealing with some of the newspaper people and dealing with the Ferry -Morse people , what he said. Mr. Speak er, I believe it's a certain Roger Newman from the Tribune , a business edito r, April 10 , 1970.

He goes on to talk about the problems that the government is having with McKenzie and the future development and what should happen to it. Here we have the member who is now also the Minister in charge of the Manitoba Development Corporation and it goes on to talk about dealings that they had with Ferry-Mo rse and the Minister. According to the artic le , the Minister, Len Evans told a a visitor this week that the deal fell through because Ferry-Morse was unwilling to guarantee that the Brandon Plant would be ope rated for more than two years in Brandon.

The 64- year-old McKenzie company has about 8.0 permanent employees and the government felt that any future closing of the op eration would be too se vere an economic blow for the small city like Brandon. Now, Mr. Speaker , here's the quote: "If the U. S. com pany had agreed to remain in Brandon we would have approved the sale and possibly assisted them in putting up a new plant , Mr. Evans said , but we could not ob tain any commitmen t" , Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, the interesting thing is that any different than this govern ment has done? We have been dealing with a number of people, Mr. Speaker.

We have been talking to a number of people. And, Mr. Speaker, to this date we have not been assured of preci sely the same thing referred to in this particular article. We are as conc erned as anybody in the province of Manitoba to keep this company here and keep it viable and operating. Mr. Speaker, I want to go on a little further in this article. There's some interesting stuff in here. Mr. Speak er , there's one difference , that my position from the outset • • • -- (Interjection)-- Mr.

Speaker , I say to you from the out set , that all the statements that I have made with regard to McKenzie Seeds hold today and hold in the future , and that is that we are trying to strengthen the operatio ns out in that. We have never indicated to anybody , and never even hinted that we would not be st anding by that company and trying to close its doors. Mr. Speaker, it's been one of trying to strengthen that operation rather than try and weaken it. Mr. Speaker , he goes on to say in this

article - Mr. Newman , Tribune Business Edito r, April 10 , 1970 - "Neverth eless he indicates that the Minister, that the government is st ill prepared to sell if the right offer comes along". This has nothing to do , Mr. Speak er , with this Ferry-Mo rse. If he's talking that he wasn't happy with that deal, good; if he thought it was in the best interests of the people of Manito ba that it would not be beneficial to the company to sell it, then he shouldn't have sol d it. I agree with him, I agree with that st atement, Mr. Speaker.

But what does he say: "Nevertheless he indicates that the government is sti ll prepared to sell it if the right offer comes along. An attempt has been made to interest sev eral pro spective purchasers but there have been no takers as yet". March 7, 1980 , the following statement is issued by Len Evans , MLA for Brandon East: "Mr. Banman' s statements in the Legis lature yes terday as reported in the attached news report in the Winnipeg Free Press of March 7, are both misleading and mischievous".

I want to make it clear and catego rically that, at no time did I, as a Minister responsible for McKenzie Seeds from 1970 to 1977 , sol icit or cause to be solicited a potential buyer for McKenzie Seeds. -- (Interjection)-- 1970 , ten years ago , Mr. Speaker , he's had a change of heart ••• A MEMBER : What a difference 10 years makes. MR. BANMAN: "Neverth eless he indicates that the government is still pre pared to sell if the right offer comes along. An attempt has been made to inter est several prospective purchasers but there have been no takers as yet". - 1870 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 Now here comes the clincher, Mr. Speaker, and this is a quote: "Frankly the seed business is the last industry that we want to be in, comments Mr. Evans". Again, Mr. Speaker, "Frankly the seed business is the last industry that we want to be in, comments Mr. Evans". -- (Interjection)-- That's a quotable quote. MR. MINAKER: He also said but for the NDP government that Quebec would have had Saunders too. MR. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I believe and I think the record will show, that in the dealings, and as Minister responsib le for McKenzie Seeds, over the last number of years, that I have tried to do precisely what the member over here has indicated, that he said in 1970, and that is to try and strengthen the operations out in Brandon at McKenzie Seeds. And that is what this government has been try ing to do. But, Mr. Speaker, the member opposite has been very mischievous in this particular instance. -- (Interjection)-- And, Mr.

Speaker, the record shows and there's much more documentation that we can refer to with regard to this, to show that the Member for Brandon East followed very much the same course that we are. In other words, in their first several years tried to find a way of strengthening the company so that it was not a drain on the Manitoba taxpayer and still remain a viable business out there, and that's what this whole exercise that we have been trying to do, is all about. And anybody that says contrary is really doing themselves or the particular company a disservice because I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that we do have an asset out there which if handled right and put on the right track, incorporated with some other programs or some other marketing techniques, that we can make this thing go. We have seen in our attempt to find somebody out in the private sector, through the tender process, that has not worked.

And I tell the member opposite there were a couple of people who were really interested, but for the same reasons that he didn't sell to Ferry-Morse, this particular government didn't sell to any body else, because we could not receive and were not assured what we thought was the right conditions to maintain that operation in Brandon. But, Mr. Speaker, I want the people in Brandon to realize that these two resolutions have been trumped up by the Member for Brandon East. Mr. Speaker, the issues have been trumped up by the Member for Brandon East to try and strengthen his political strength in the Brandon area.

Now, Mr. Speaker, let me tell you this is one of the problems we have faced with government-owned companies and the Member for Inkster will be the first one to recognize it; that the problem is - and this goes across all political bound aries except I have to give credit to the Member for Inkster because he said when he would be in the opposition he would not get up and ask questions which would embarrass government-owned companies unless there was something grossly wrong, he has repeated that several times in the House that he wants to give them the benefit of not ••• MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The honourble member has five minutes. MR. BANMAN: Thank you. Well, Mr. Speaker, I think one of the problems that we've had with regard to this and other companies is that there is the great temptation on all politicians - and I'm not talking about any partisan politics - to try and maximize their particular political benefits from attacking and trying to make the government of the day look foolish in running of Crown corporations or in running any particular program.

And that's what makes, unlike a program, a corporat ion such as McKenzie, is much more vulnerable to this kind of public harassment, than people that are directly responsible like a Minister that's direc tly , responsible for some program. That's the opposition's job and it's the government's job. And listen, Mr.

Speaker, I will be the first to admit that is one of the big gest problems that the Crown corporations have and I am not pointing a finger at any particular political party with regard to that because the temptation is there and I say to you that was one of the biggest problems the former administration had with regard to MDC and the Crown corps that were owned and is something that we're still hastling with. - 1871 -

Monday, 31 March, 1980 Here we are debating resol

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-4-28a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 4th hansardpdf 28a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f6c5cc58aa64eb5cc2e785ac1877544c21efd0ad

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