PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND VERBATIM REPORT

March 14, 1973 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 597 MR. SPEAKER: Order please! I would like to welcome to the galleries today thirty-seven ~rade Vlll students from St. Patrick's Girls Elementary School, Patrick Street,in St. John's,with their teacher, Anna C. Meaney. On behalf of all hon. members I welcome you to the galleries. NOTICE OF MOTIONS: HON. T.A. HICKMIIN(MINISTER OF JUSTICE): Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Industrial Development I give notice that I will JM - 1 on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt A Supplemental Agreement Made Between Government, Newfoundland Refining Company Limited And Other Companies." ORDERS OF THE DAY : MR. ROWE(F.B.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation. Sir, it has come to my attention that The 4-H Adult Leaders' Conference that was scheduled for the weekend at Gander has been cancelled.

I wonder if the minister could inform the House whether or not this is so. HON. J.G. ROUSSEAU(MINISTER OF RECREATION AND REHABILITATION): I would like that on notice. MR. S.A. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there are a nlDDber of questions that we would like to ask but the Premier and ministers are not in their seat again,as usually. It is typical. Sir, how can we ask questions? How can we ask the government questions, Sir? MR. S~EAKF.R: The hon. member may rise in his place to ask a question, otherwise he is out of order. MR.

NEARY: Sir, could we postpone the question period until the ministers and the Premier get in their seats in the House where they should be? MR. SPEAKER: Order please! It bein~ Private Members' Day we should

March 14, 1973 . Tape 597 JM - 2 proceed with motion number four. I think the hon. member for Bonavista North adjourned the debate,and not being in his seat, according to the rules then he loses his chance to continue the debate. Is there somebody else who would wish to speak? MR. E.M. ROBERTS(LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Mr. Speaker, I would not say there are any rules on it but since the lRet speaker was from this side of the House,if there is a gentleman on the other side who wishes to speak I will gladly sit down and give him the opportunity to speak before I say a few words. MR.

ROBERTS: No, no, no, I mean,there may well be a number who would wiRh to speak but I am quite prepared to say a frw words now if that is the wish of the House.Because I do not wish to have two from our side in succession, one after the other,if there is some other hon. gentleman opposite who wants to say a few words.Does the Minister of Finance want to speak? I mean I am easy. HON. J.C. CROSBIE(MlNISTER OF FlNANCF.): No, I have to go downstairs. MR. ROBERTS: Okay, we will let the Minister of Finance go downstairs then,and I wish him all success. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition! MR.

ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker! I shall be quite brief on this, Sir, because I believe the subject has been very well canvassed in the debate ~nd we have had two full private members' days, two full afternoons of the House, Sir, on this motion and in addition we had about one-half of another private members' day.

So in all we have had two and one-half private members' days on this subject and we shall have some debate today, a few minutes from me and perhaps a few minutes from some of the otl1c-r hon. r,entlemen on the opposite side of this chamb~r nnd then douhtle.ss my fdcnd and collr.aRuc, the member for nell Iebm<I c-:m be• e.ntir.:C'<I into sayinp, n few worcls. Now, ~Jr, ]rt me come rJr,ht to tl1c polnt. The motion moved by 1921

March 14, 1973 Tape 598 IB-1 my friend the member for Bell Island states in its

preamble quite clearly, quite succinctly, quite forcefully the reasoning which lead my colleague to bring in the motion. The first statement is a statement of fact. It says; "WHEREAS the present administration claims that they would award contracts for the expenditure of public money only after public tenders have been called; th~n it went on "WllERF.AS contr11cts involving the expenditure of subatnntial sums of money have been awarded to Mr. George McLean and/or companies in which he iR involved including N.A.C.O.M.

Limited, without any public tenders having been called; Rnd "WHEREAS the present Administration claimed that they would not indulge in any practices wher.ehy the public interest of the Province would " confU .ct with the private interests of any other body, (again a statement of fact, Sir);hand 1'Wl!EREAS Mr.

George McLean has heen anti continues to be with and without remunerati.on, an adviser to the P.C.Party of Newfoundland during the two most recent Provincial r,eneral elections and ~urinr, the Federal general election of Oct:ober 1972"(ng11in, Sir. a statement of fact) ;"and "WHEREAS it appears thnt suhstantial sums of money have been paid to 'Mr. McLean and/or his aasocf .ated companies in advance of the performance by them of such work as they have contracted to perform; and "WHEREAS there are presistent renorts about the inferior quality of the work being produced for the Government by Mr.

McLean; and ''WHEREAS the public interest requires and demands that these matters be thoToughly investigated.'' That is the r,ist of the argument, Mr. Speaker, the gist of the f11ctual cRse on which th:f.s motion rests. My colleap.ue,in introducinp. thr. motion,spoke at some length, expandr.d upon the stRt.ementR he made in his resolution (the ones which J have just read), R:we further :f lluBtration,:, further examples of exactly whnt he mcnnt,of the evidence underlyinR these statements, these 192~

• / 1-farch 14, 1973 Tape 598 IB-2 char,efll,thefle accusations 11nd concludf'<I hy mov1nR the resolution itself which says; NNOW THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that a select committee of eight members be appointed to investigate into and report upon the matters set forth above and any other matters incidental thereto, said committee having the power to send for persons and documents and to examine witnesses under oath." What :1appened then, Mr. Speaker? Well, the first .thing that happened was the Premier entered the debate, a rather pleasant experience and all the more pleasant for being so novel. He spoke at some considerable length. His speech cover~d thirty or forty pages of the Hansard. It took moat of an 11ftcrnnon.

We 1iRtened to it wfth n p;re11t d('Rl of interest. T Am fllure the Premier list~nc<l to it with a greRt deal of interest as 'We] 1, becau,cie l had the impres,.;ion he was readinR it for the first time. Mr.. A, F.VANS: You would not know the difference. MR, ROBERTS: No, the Premier would not know the difference. That is quite true. As for the honourable gentleman from Burgeo, Sir, if I could be assured that he could read,we would be further off than when we started. As I wns saying, Mr. Speaker, the Premier came and made a lengthy speech.

I listened to it, most of it,sittinr, here in the House,and other portions of it,while standing outside the House but within the ranr,e of the P.A. systems. I listened to it and I read it. I have never heard as unconvincinr, or as uninspiring or as insubstantial a case made as the Premier did in his speech. My colleague, the r,entleman from White Hay South, made a very good speech here,one week past,in which he exposed the main threat of the ar,;~ument advanced by the Premier.

He did it sdmi.rnbly and I think sde~uately and so I will not attempt to do 1.t again excent to mention thnt the Pr~mic,r's main arp,ument seemed to he q11fte s:lmply,"Well, mnyhe we hnve hl'en hnd hoyi:i,hut evl'ryhndy else have heen ha<l boyA and how cnn you rxpec.t us not to he?" Well, Mr. Spcnker, th<' people of Newfoundland ,lfmt thP prE"Rent ndmfni,n -r;it Ion into offi cc not to do the th:lnr,s wh:I ch 1n2~-

March l/1, 1973 Tape 598 IB-3 th"Y 1u•,·11a,1>,1 ui:1 i:ir h<1vln1t 1hmfi wh•rt "'"' wc:1r• In ott't1il! IHIC ~t'I l,p A d1tferent and ho~efully a better type of government. Well, the Pren,ier's speech and the actions of the administration in the past year have exposed that as bein~ a vain hope. The people of New- foundland were misled. They were fooled. They were taken in.

We saw it on the Hawkes Bay incident 1where the Premier went down there the day before the election and made the statement, that his colleague, yesterday, the Minister of Finance, confirmed, that it could not have been made with any knowledge of the full situation. We have seen ft in something like the Shaheen deal - and there w!ll be more on this Inter - where the administration have now made an arrangement and the same Minister of Finance and the same gentleman from Fortune Bay, the Minister of Supply and Services,would have had us believe that Mr. Shaheen was the archenemy,the archdevil, the archfoe.

Now we have the Premier of the Province going on the radio and on the television and saying that Mr. Shaheen is an estimable gentleman, that his credit is superb, that his organizational and development talents are even greater. Then finally we have the George McLean incident. The Premier's speech is a most incredihle, just a most incredible admission of political guilt. There is in it no rebuttal whatsoever of the facts put forward by my colleague and there is not even any real argument with the arguments, put forward by my colleague _. with the opinions he deduced from the facts.

There was a vicious personal attack on the gentleman from Bell Island, but we are ~rowing accustomed to that. We are r,rowing accustomed to a group of men on the other side, Mr. Speaker, who with one side of their mouth:; made v:I cious personal attacks and then wJ th the other side of their mouth.get up and become somewhat mealy-mouthed arid pretend that they are obovc that sort of thing. The record speaks for itself. All one has to do is read the Hansard, Sir, and one will see it. The Premier d:l.d not deal with the charges. He merely said there w11s no confl.1.ct of interest. That is not the fact, 1-(r.

Speaker, There :Is a conflict of interest. Mr. McLean is acting for companies doing business with the govemment,and the Premier saying that there is no 192 1.;.

Much 14, 1973 Tape 598 IB-4 conflict of interest does not make it so. The only way we can find out whether or not there was a conflict of interest is not from a statement from a Premier or any other minister who,after all.could be heard,fairly and with justice could be heard to be accused of beinR in a position of having to say there was no conflict of interest. They wiU hardly admit th11t tht>re was one, hard] y. We do not have any saints in human form sitting across from us, ~r. Speaker.

The Premier merely said there was no conflict of interest and attempted to spread a larp,e whitewash brush over ~r. f~orge McLean and his enterprises.

Well, he did not succeed because if one reads the speech bv the Premier and then reads the documents tabled by a number of the ministers, the Minister of Fisheries, the Minister of Agrirulture, the Minister of Tourism and one or two other gentlemen, in a sequence much like a Greek chorus troupinR out onto a stage and unburdening themselves of their sins, layinr, these carefully crafted documents on the table of the House and pretending that somehow that ' made it all nice. If one read those, Mr. Speaker, one quickly sees that the arguments put forward by the gentleman from Bell Island have not been dealt with.

After two and a half days of debate, Sir, those charges stand unrebut.ted hy anybody on the other side. The honourable gentleman from Bell Island mncle a number of smaller pointR ,md some of those have been cha]) enr,ed. He did not pretend they m,re all correct. lie sa1 d in his remarks, "I understand this is so. ls ft so?". That fs fine hut the m111or stat<>m<'nts made by him, Mr. Spe:ik<'r, 1.n the motion, the body of thC' mot-Lon, st:mcl unrehutted. Thr. f:ict rC'mains, Mr.

Speaker, thP prC'Rcnt administration did claim tlwt they would award contracts for the expenditure of public money only after public tenders had been called. They have r,iven C:eorge Mcl.cim nnd his comp.my suh5tantfal contracts, hundreds of thouRands of doll:irs,wfthout any public tenders hein~ called. What defense docs the Premier offr-r? lie miF-riuot<>s me. He doeR m•i th<' courtesy to quote me but he do<'s not do me ,the courtesy to quote 111<' cnrrl'ct.lv. One haR only to look 11t tlw ll;nrnards. Tt r:m hP. founcl nt p:ir.<' 3,677. - W<' arc fl wordy 1 ') <"; .-, • ;.,i'

March 14, 1973 Tape 598 lot in tht  HouH • Hr. flpeakor - 3,677 of Hanaard for tho Urt aeaa:l.on of th:1.a thir.ty-1:l.xth General Aaemhly ,where I aid IB-5 that I quite agrceed that one could not c.all tenders for films. But I was never the one who had said it, 1.t was the ge11tleman opposite who said they do that. Then I went on and said, "I do find it curious that this admission comes from an administration. that has made such a fetish of no conflict of interest." 1 (\ '"J , ~ ";J 1w .._ ,.

March 14, 1973 Tape No. 599 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: The Premier in quoting that in the House managed to add the word "not'' at a crucial moment, lt completely changed the context of the quotation. I do not think he meant to do it, Sir. I think his advisers had briefed him badly. We are growing accustomed to that, but the fact remains that the statement was quoted incorrectly. That i~ the only evidence the Premier offered to rebuff the statement. The fact remains, Mr.

Speaker, and it stands on the record that this crowd of men who form Her Majesty's Ministry in this province now, went from Cape Chidley to Cape Race, fr0t11 Cape Ray to Cape Bonavista, saying,- "nothing without public tenders," and the moment they get into office they fall all over themselves giving George McLean business, hundreds of thousands of dollars worth. By the way, it may be of interest to the House, Mr. Speaker, to know that Mr. McLean's companies are dojng business illegally in this province.

I am told that the law of Newfoundland says that a company, not being a Newfoundland company, cannot do business in this province unless it is registered under the appropriate leiislation. As of, I confess I did not check it today, two or three days a~o when I last checked it, neither NACOM nor any other finn benring George McLean's name was re~istered to do business in this province. This me.ans, as T underatand it, they hsive no status in the courtfl, they cannot aue or be sued.

I am not sure what other leRal actions it hns, hut it interesting to note they have not,as far as I know, complied with the law of this province. If they have done so, they have done it either within the past twenty-four hours or they have done it under another name. They have not done it in the n11me of NACOM or in any combination of George McLean and McLean Advertising or so forth. 1" c:, .· ~, ·- i

Much 14, 1973 Tape No. 599 NM - 2 HR. ROBF.RTS: Th• telaphone directory in St. John'• do•• li1t • ~cl.can Public Rel at iona Service, but it doea not· go beyond that. Now we go on 0 The next •tatement ia that the administration claim that they would not indulge in any practices whereby the public interests of this province would conflict with the private interest of any other body. The Premier made a sorry spectacle of himself on this. There were something like eighteen factual errors in his remarks of the quality that somehow A.E. Aimes, the justification for the current state of affairs is that A.E.

Aimee apparently retains Mc~aren Advertising Company who did work for the Government of Newf~undland, I think for two years,on the tourist account. It may have been two or three or maybe even four years, but they latterly did not even have the tourist account, they still have the Aimee account. The Premier managed to get a seventeen year error in that. He claimed that· it had been going since Confederation. Aimee came to work for the Government of Newfoundland, I believe in 1965, when the syndicate was formed, on the advice of the then comptroller and deputy minister of Finance, Mr.

Denis Groom, the syndicate of bond houses was formed. That same syndicate existed and continued to exist until last year when the Minister of Finance was once again overruled in a major question of policy and the Burns Brothers and Denton firm were retained to act for the government as their financial syndicate. I counted up I think eighteen errors by the Premier in his atte.mpted rebuttle of that

section of the motion. None of the Premier's statements, Sir, go at all to the heart of the matter, none give of interest, any evidence to show there was no conflict We have made a prims facie case. This company does business with the r,overnmcnt And it also represents any number of companies 1 {\Cj~, iJ ·--....

March 14, 1973 Tape No. S99 NM - 3 MR. ROBERTS: that also do business with the government. Perhaps the leading example is Burns Brothers and Denton, a firm which haA no tandinp. whatRoev~r in the bond m~rket. I am told they re a very lnrp,e house when it cornea to ehares and buying and trading shares, a reputable firm but not known at all in the bond market. They were I think the tenth or twelfth largeet firm dealing in municipal and provincial bonds. A. E. Aimes,who came to the government on the advice of Mr.

Groom, I was not in the Cabinet at the time, but several honourable gentlemen opposite - no I am not sure if they were - probably the gentleman from Fortune Bay was a member of the Cabinet at that time. The gentleman from St. John(s West, the gentleman from Burin were not. They came in in 1966 and I think by then the syndicate had come into existence. The A, E. Aimes firm were of course the largent in Canada in provincinl and municipal bond jssues. But we find it very interestinp, that the Burns Brothers and Denton firm have retained Mr.

McLean's services for a number of year • Lo and behold! they show up heini given the financial account for the province. Some little whjle was it not after the honourable Minister of Finance said, "we are not going to change the A.E. Airnes firm, they a.re doing perfectly good work for us, ·we are not going to chanp,e them?

Then, Lo and Behold! it was announced one day in one of these lip,htening revelatjons that,with no public preparation, no puttin~ the word around the financial community to say: "We are unhappy with the performance of Aimes, we would like to get somebody else 0 Will any firm that is interested please drop us a line or write us a letter and let us know and we will then choose from among the available offerinr;s." No, no, Lo and Behold! like the tablets coming down from the mountain, Mr. Speaker, Burns Brothers and Denton were given this .f (\ C-,1 i , ..l. 4J ,. "

March 14, 1973 Tape No. 599 NM - 4 MR, ROBERTS: account, a very substantial account. I have no idea what the fees are. The fees of course are proportionate to the bond issues, to the borrowings, But in view of the Minister of Finance's record to date, in view of what I suspect he will be doing when he brings his budget into the House shortly, I suspect that Burns Brothers and Denton are going to be immensely wealthier as a result of their association with Newfoundland. Their association with Mr. McLean predated that. One of the few clients Mr.

McLean has is Burns Brothers and Denton, one of the few clients his firm has• : Lo and Behold! the ~reat, juicy plum taken away from a firm w1th no political connections at all,to my knowledge. A. E. Aimes did not come to Newfoundland because of any connection with the Liberal Party. They came because they were the leading bond house. They came because in 1964 and 1965 and 1966 the Government of Newfoundland was engaged in borrowing relatively large sums of money, large by the standards of the mid-sixties.

I can remember quite clearly, it was seven o'clock one summer evening, there were two men left working on the eighth floor - Denis Groom, who had the room that is just out by the elevator, I do not know who is using it now, Denis Croom was there, He was Finanical Adviser to the Premier and I was there as the Premier'k Executive Assistant, We were the only ones left and we fell to talking. Mr. Groom was a worried man; we had to borrow between $80 million and $100 million in the next eip,hteen months. These were our long term cnAh needs.

The money had been financed on short term noteA in the normal way and this made it necessary to set up the long term borrowings and he was not doubtful but he thour,ht it was a lnrr,e job, a man size job to borrow that money, nnd of course he did succeed in borrowing it. The government succeeded in borrowinp. it with his advice.

March ' 14, 1973 Tape No, 599 NM - 5 HK._ROlllmT~:_ W"ll he augr,eated wet r,at a •yndicato. No moro would we send out telegrams. The government of this province, Mr. Speaker, used to send out telegrams asking for bids on bond issues and they would come in, The then Comptroller of Finance, Mr. Walter Marshall, would ~eceive these, they would be sent to him. He would make a recommendation that such and such a bid be accepted for a $20 million bond issue and that syndicate or finn would be given the right to sell the bond issue and would get their fees that way.

Denis Groom said thnt was not good enough, not in view of the borrowings that we were then involved in,and they pale into insignificance compared to the current scale. So the syndicate was formed with the Aimes Company, the leading company in Canada. I do not care if the government dropped them, that is again their decision,but I find it very interesting that they dropped them in favour of a firm with next to no standing in the institutional field at all, firm whojby coincidence, are one of the few clients of the estimable gentleman, Mr. George McLean. I am not saying it is a conflict of interest.

I am sayinr, it is an apparent conflict of interest. It smells, it stinks, 1.t should be investigated, either it will be investip,ated now by this select commjttec or it will be investigated in due course. It will be investigated becauoe it is something that should be investigated. Whether or not there is anything wrong, I do not know. All I know is, apparently there is something wrong. The Premier in his statement made no defence at all of this, no defence at all. Now I could r,o on, Mr. Speaker, but I am just making the enmr point aP,ain nnd or,ain. I know there are other honourable gentlc-mf'n oppo,:ii te.

TIH•y ar,rce that monc~y ha!'! b<>tm paid out to Hr. HcLenn mHI to his companies before the work was done. That is .. """I -~ 1. a J .....

March 14, 1973 Tape No. 599 NH - 6 MR. ROBERTS: in the doc\Dllents tabled by some of the honourable gentlemen opposite,last week. They made no comment at all about the persistent report  about the inferior quality of the work being produced for the government by Mr. McLean. Except,! noticed the Premier last year in the estimates admitted that in the Fisheries Department they had to stop payments to Mr. McLean because the work had not been done properly. There were references to that in the debate last week,that monies had been withheld because he is not able to perform credibly and properly.

The Minister of Fisheries has admitted that the contract with Mr. McLean,for $6,000 a month,for public realtions services for the Fisheries Department had to be renegotiat~d because Mr. McLean could not do the work, could not do it. It took the minister from June to October to tene~otiate the contract-- June to October, by the minister's own admission. McLean was paid at the fully $6,000 a month rate for that, so he got $18,000, even after the minister admitted publicly,in his own document, that he was not doing the job.

That is the sort of reasoning that leads us to say that there are persistent reports about the inferior quality of the work being produced for the government by Mr. McLean. We have I the example of the gentleman from St. John's North, now enjoying his much deserved holiday in the Canary Islands, as I understand it, his month long holiday. AN HON. MEMBER: Lucky. MR. RORERTS: Lucky Well, if the honourable Minister of Education wants to be put out of the Cabinet, he too can have a holiday in St. Mary's. I am not sure the gain would be worth the gamble.

I have no fear about the honourable gentleman being put out of the Cabinet because 1!)3~

'March 1~, 197 3 Tape 600 PK - 1 -that would he a blow. That would be a disaster. The gentleman knows the difference between a disaster and a catastrophe, Gladstone and Disraeli. Well Gladstone said when someone asked: "What is the difference?" S-aid Gladstone I the Prime Minister of England: "If Disraeli were to fall into the Serpentine, the lake in Hyde Park, that would be a disaster. If someone were to pull him out that would be a catastrophe." The honourable gentleman leaving the cabinet would be a disaster, his staying in would he a catastrophe. We have the example of the gentleman for St. John's North, Sir.

I have here a cutting from thP ''Toronto Sun" send to me by the managinr, editor, the issue of January 1. 1973,an

article by nr. Robert !'facDonald,a staff writer,apparPntJy,with that newspaper. It Rays thnt a disillusioned "X" cahinet member c];ifms the r,overnment of Premier Fran\r. Moores could 'teach Joey Smallwood some tricks and patronaRe.' John Carter a thirty­ eight year oln St. John's former businessman charp,ed he was 'flunp out' (eloquent phrase, not quite as eloquent as beinr. shafted, hut eloquent) of the ~1oores Cah1net hec;i11se he was 'too strnight-1 aced' in his opposition to polit,cnl 'fnvours'-1n 11n interview. By the way the honour;ihle mi>mher for St.

John's North has not denied thPse statemrnts, he h11s sort of hed?,ed around them somewhat. I rep,ret that he is not wfth us today. AN llON. r,n,m:R· He has re:1ffir.we<l them. -- --- .. .. .. . ·--· MR. ROHFRT~: J!c> haR re11ffirm£'rl them, has he? Okoy. lie cP.rtt1in]y hnR not dl'niC>cl tl,ern hcc-ausr,of coursf', Mr. llacnonalcl fR :m o]cl friend of the p;cntlr.n,;m for i;t • .Jol,n's North. Mr. MacDonald ifl a f'Ood newRpRper m.in. Mr. M11c-Don:1Jd p,n('S on ''In nn interview the formPr frlucation .ind Youth r1Jnfr.t£'r ''!that fs tlir- former J:ducatfon anrl Youth i:JniRtPr, t·•r.

Speaker) ''snfrl hC' l,;i,l oh_1ectrc! to ~111rh thfnr,s ns proposnls to hnvr!. film ,:;trips made hy a Tnronto l'uhHc Rclat:inns Firm at n co,:;t of nhout $1,,000 when 'thc> strf.r'> could have heen clone hy MY clep11rtrnent,with our own equ1pmcnt,for ah011t $500. , ,. Tl1en thrren, ·e a couple of p.1rar,r11plu1 tlrnt are not relevant to thfs dehntc>. They :1rc not of prnfsr to tl1r adrnfnistr11tion but T "'ill not rend them. It p,oeR on; "I was not ~•r. Popularity with l~r. lfoores,'" safd

:.. M'arch 14, 1973 Tape 600 PK - 2 Carter. " I may add that is an underatate111eT1t. "A one-time President or ti, .. f:..,,,f'nuntilnnd l'rosgre1111tvo C!<>n•ervative Party. lie also Tan against Mo~reA for th~ Party Leadership. Carter said he incurred the Premier's displeasure. "Honourable gentlemen opposite might take note that a Premier's displeasure is obviously a very heavy burden, a very heavy burden to carry.

Anyway,the newspaper story says "Carter said he incurred the Premier's displeasure for Rtoppinp, an attempt." Haw, haw, he dared to stop it. ''He paid this, political head, for l!ltoppin~ an attempt to have the film stripe work go to NACOM Limited, a Toronto Public Relations Firm headed by . ••• II You all bet your Rweet biffy, Mr. Speaker, who headed that Toronto Public Relations Firm. AN RON. r,q:}f'AF:R · It was not Martin Goldfarb. MR. ROJJERTS: It was not Hartin Goldfarb, the honourable gentleman's, sweet biffy is not being bet this time, Any other tries?

Well then I '1-•ill have to surprise the llouse by saying it was after all, Mr. George McLean. Who? Georr,e l"cJ,ean. And as the story r.oes on, a nice story, Mr. Speaker. it looks good on the front page of the "Toronto Sun·.'' By the way it is an 11uthorative paper in Toronto. It goes on quoting the p,entleman for St. John's North again. •·McLean had done puhlic relations work for the party during the election campaign. So they are handing him a lot of contracts now. Moores did not openly overrule my decision to stop the film strips awards but I know he was d:! spleased." T "1-•onder how he knew?

He probably knew on the 2nd, of December. Mr, ~penker, it would he hard to find more damning evidence, hard to f:!nd a Rtronr.er stnt~mcnt. Ila! Ha! the tribe has come. Mr, Speaker. I bid welc.om~ to the PremieT, the Minister of Industrial Relations,and the Ministnr of Jlip.hways is hid:!nr. behind hilll, There he is, he is welcome. If I were the Minister of llfr.hways,I should not hide. As I have said, :!.t will he hard to fincl more damninp, P.Vidence in support of this motion.

The Premier's statements :ln the !louse, h:!s speech,in no way contradicted or dented thr fRcts, He took iRsue with the argument, as one w~uld expect

March 14, 1973 Tape 600 PK - 3 of co11r11e, but he die! not take iasue with · the main facts. Here we have one of hts former colleagues, the gentlel'l8n who still supports the administration politically, ~ho said it is politically, in a newspaper article. That has not been deniecl and similar articles were carried in the local press, subsequently, savine !-ir. !-lcl.ean got business because he t-•as connected with the Tory Party. Mr. McLean was getting business that cost far more than was necessary. That is the whole gist of this motion, Mr. Speaker. Not that Mr.

McLean has heen hired to do public relati~ns work for the government. Governments have valid information, valid policies and programmes that the people should be informed ahout. Indeed the then ~inister of Social Assistance would do well to have George McLean. I was astonished to read that the 111:f.nister will not allow the cithen's rip.hts p;roup,whatever they are called, to put a little deRk :fn the welfare office on Harvey Road so that people can he :fnformed of their r:fr,hts. AN HON. ~w.1rnr.R: Inaud:fh]e. ----- - - - . -·- ~fR. Ronr.n~ · T can believe that.

The hononrahle gentlernnn went against it in part because I w a s in favour of it. MR. MURPHY: Inaudihle. MR. R011F.RTS: There you are, Hr. Speaker, if the honourable gentleman would like to r,o over - MR. SPF.AKF.P: Order, please! MR. ROJlERT~: Thank you, Sir. If the honourahle p,entlemen·would like to r,o OVC'r to ll;i.rvC'y Ronrl,they would Ftf'.'P how conf:fdc-ntf11] :ft if! that waittny, room thnt on1· r,nt>A tnto an one comes off Harvey Rc,ncl into the ROVC'Tnmt"nt hutl,Hnp. ~IR. tll!Rl'flY: ~m. RnP.FRTS: l'r inhrritro 1.t. We inheritecl it. J AP,ree the honmrrnhlc rentlrman :fnherited it.

Now he has the or,portnnfty to improve :It. MR. ~UP.PHY: MR. RO!l[f!TS: MR. MURPHY· It is on the way, it will not helonr. now. 1fr. Spe;i.ker, we heard that s]opnn in 196R.in That is riy,ht. 1!l3~

March 14, 1973 Tape 600 PK - 4 MR. ROBERTS· Bonavista Trinity Conception. "It will not be lonR now." Mr. David Rooney proved.in October 1972.it was not long at all. Now as we were saying - MR. MOORF.S : We still account that as a brilliant statement last year. 1-!R. ROBERTS: That is a very good statement. Would the Premier like to have another election? im.. MOORF.S : No, Tam goin1, to r,et you in Bonavista Trinity Conception. MR. ROP.F.RTS: t-fR. 'f-!OORl-~S: All rir.ht we Are on. Any time. ~. ROil!:!lJS: Bonavista Trinity Conception. I will tell you who will be happiest, the ~entleman for St.

John's West. '· MR..=-J!OORES...:.. In a provincial seat. t-fR. ROBF.RTS: In a provincial seat? Sure. Or in a federal seat. MR. MOORP.S: I do not want to go federal, but I know you have nowhere else to ~o, but that is your prohlem. MR~~_ny~TS: Come to White Bay and run. MR. 'f-!OORF.S : No • -------- ~. RORF.RT~: No? --- · ·-··- !:f:!l_~!:'~~_RJ~c;_~ We are tRlkiny, ahout an independent area,right? MR. ROllERTS: R 1 r,ht. nonaviRta Trinity Conception. The Premier has already run once. lie hnn heen cl.ectccl hy A hir. vote there, and his political heir paid the price for the Premier's representation.

A 4000 vote majority became a 4000 vote deficit in four years. That is not bad. Not bad. The Premier mir,ht rcmemhcr, Mr. Speaker,that the test of a politican is not r,ettinr. elected.is r,cttinr. re-elected because then the people can sit in judiment. The member for Rurin was rc-elected,runnin~ on a different party ticket. The member for St. John'R Rast has been re-elected, the memher for St. ,Tohn' fl Pc Rt wn11 re-elected. !_flt_._ !~~RFS:_ _ And th<~ l'rop,reRRive Con!lcrvntive Government was elected. HR. ROIIF.RTS: llut not re-elected. ~---~'<lORF.S: No, nor has the Opposition either. 1 D 3 i:

March 14, 1973 Tape 600 PK - 5 MR. ROBERTS: The Liberal Government have been re-elect five times in this province. HR. MOORF.S: Are you taking the responsibility for thattDo? MR, ROBF.RTS: No I am not. I wish I could,but I can take responsibiiity MR. MOORF.S: Of beinp, in opposition, exactly. HR. RORF.RTS: Of course! can. ~-- J~_O_RY.S:. Surf'! you can, all of us. HR._~OJF.RT_;<;_:_ (Jf course J can, and let us have the Prop,reasive Conservative Government p,o to the people now and see if they can get re-elected. MR. MOORES: We will go to the people, we will go to the people - MR.

ROBERTS: We were not quite so keen, and on the Georp,e McLean record let us go, Mr. Speaker. Sure. 1-m. MOORF.S: You can go on the George McLean record or any other record that we stood on. :MR. SPEAKF.R: Order. MR. ~O!,f.RTS· Mr. Speaker, do you think the Premier could control himself somewhat, he is gettinP. a little red in the face? HR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! MR. RORERTS: As I was saying about P.onavista Trinity Conception,where the honourable gentleman for St. John's Centre has reminded me the slogan was '"It will not he lon!; now." And what was the other slogan? '!-m. MOORES· It was not long now. HR.

RO~F.RTS: Mr. Robert Nutheem wrote them. They were good slogans. What wns it? ''Seek not to have II job but to do a joh. '' I think that was the slogan in l<lfifl. Thnt was the one that they used at the famed RonaviRta meetinF that cost $25,ooo: It WRR a ~reat meetin~. They filled the stadium in nom1vista. A r,reat meetinr .. Jlut we will see about that. Bill mc,r.eorir,l'! HcLenn.

As J was anyinr,, the r,ovcrnment haven vnlid re.aRon to make points public, to mnke information puhlic, vcn thr. me!llhl'!r for St, John's East would have to ar.ree with that- peering ot-•Ushly nt me as he is. lie is a very owJ:lnh lool-:inr p:cntleman when he pePrs,

March 14, 1971 Tape 6rl0 PK - 6 AN HON, 1-fF.MBF.R: Ho! Ho ! Ho ! MR. ROBF.RT~~ Obviouely, Mr. ~reaker, obviously, Sir, on the other side we have twit~ 11:ii well ae owl.fl. Y.'R. ~ORF.~:_ That 1a the past pluperfect of the verb "to want." !-fR, FO~FRT~! The ~erb is not n parliamentary one, so we shall not ase it •. It is hard to be an~ry uith the }finister ; of Industrial Relations or~ I am i;orry 1 the 1-'inister of Industrial Development. It is hard to be angry with him. lt is hard to take him seriously but it is also hard to be angry with him.

The other honourable ~entlemen well, you know, can stand on their record. I do not envy them that prospect. I look forward very much to the next contest. I can tell you this time we will not have Mr. William Saunders resip.nin~ on a ?.fonday and telling both the fonner 193t

March 14, 1973 Tape no. 601 Page 1 - HRW leader of his party, lying to the former leader of hie party and to the then leader of his party and saying he had not resigned. ~ HON. MEMBER: _HR. ROBERTS: What a shame! What a hame. Yea, to lie i  a shame. It is a shame. Then the same honourable gentleman turning down his pension, turning dovn hia easional pay, all thia leading up to an election. Would the Premier ~gree to a royal commission to investigate Bill Saunders, Oldford, Shea and Burgess? Will he? MR, MOORES: If it is required. MR. ROBERTS: 1 made a statement. Will the Premier agree to it?

The Premier brought up Mr. Shea and Hr. Burgess. KR, MOORES: That is right and you took them, MR. ROBERTS: Right. The Premier is quite true on that point. Will the Premier agree to a royal commiBBion. to look. into the mysterious resignation of Mr. Saunders from the House of Assembly? MR. MOORES: We are already investigating Mr. Doyle,so maybe they will surface. HR. ROBERTS: Pardon? _KR. MOORES: We are already investigating Mr. Doyle, MR. ROBERTS: That is fine. I am talkin11: about Mr. Saunders. If the Premier wants to bring in Mr, Burgess, Mr.

Shea and Magistrate Oldford, I am quite happy to have them all looked into. There were four: two gentlemen resigned from the House in mysterious circumstances. One of them, Bill Saunders, lied, lied; not to the Premier but he lied to me, he lied to my predecessor, Leader of the Liberal Party. He resigned, his letter of resignation I now have - dated 28 February.which was a Monday. Mr, Smallwood called him Monday nir,ht. I saw him on the Tuesday afternoon in Carbonear and to each of us he said, "1 have not resigned." I stood here in the House on Wednesday, March 1 - KR. MOORES: (Inaudible). HR.

ROBERTS: Oh, I reme!llber it. I shall not forget it. I remember it.

March 14, 1973 Tape no. 501 Page 2 I remember it,and •aid that Bill Saunder• va• not hore and ••id why. The aan had resigned two day before, The man baa not d-ravn hi aessional pay. The man baa not drawn hia pension, The man is now driving a Lincoln Continential car. AN BON. MEMBER: Where? MR. ROBERTS: Around Conception Bay, a car formerly owned by Mr, Ceorge G. R. Parsons. He has bought it secondhand from George G. R. Parsons Limited. AN HON. MEMBER: HOii long wu he in the Liberal Government? MR. ROBERTS: I do not know.

He is not doing so badly is he, Hi~onl~ known income is $6,000 a year from the Power Commission. It is very interesting, I would ask the Premier if he would appoint a royal .commission and if he wants to look into Mr. Shea, Mr, Burgess, I am quite happy to have them looked into. Hlt. MOORES: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Sure! MR. MOORES: No. Does the Premier want to look into that too. MR. ROBERTS: Will the Premier answer my question? All right,I will put a motion on the Order Paper later and we will deal with it. Now back to George McLean where we will be doing some investigating, either n011 or later.

The wheel turns. It may take a while. It took twenty-two or twenty-three years for it to turn before. It will turn again. While I may or may not be in this House or may or may not be the Leader of the Liberal Party twenty-two or twenty-three years, .two or three years from now I expect to be around. We shall see, George McLean, Mr. Speaker, has been getting business from. this government. He has beon getting it in dubious circumstances. We have the word of a former minister for that, getting unnecessarily. I have not said getting improperly, I do not know that, That is why we moved the motion, Now, Mr.

Speaker, the ,motion may or may not come to the vote today. A number of other honourable gentlemen are scribbling franticallv

March 14, 1973 Tape no. 601 Page 3 and will doubtleaaly he tompted to ••Ya rev vorda. Tha Mlni•t•r of Finance looks like he l• building himaelf up for another of hi• outbursts. We shall expect that and listen to it with glee and with joy. I find him most entertaining. Sometimes he is even informative. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). !(R. ROBERTS: Well he has a lot of babies to hia back, Mr. Speaker, to look to. Now, as I was saying, this motion may or may not c0111e to a vote today but it will come to a vote eventually. It will either be accepted or rejected. If it braccepted, a select committee will be aet up.

We will have a majority of government members on it. It will look into certain events. It will summon witnesses. It will hear evidence under oath. Questions will be put. Answers will be given. If the government have nothing to hide, if there is nothing wrong with George McLean, nothing wrong with the dealings between Mr. McLean and his companies and with the government, then surely they have nothing to fear from an investigation. If on the other hand they have something to hide, naturally they will not allow the investigation. People who have something to hide do not went investigations.

That is obvious and so it seems to follow. It seems to follow, Mr. Speaker, that if the government do not support this and it does not pass, it is because they have something to hide. If they have nothing to hide, I have no doubt at all that they would be having this select committee. We might even have the R.C.M.P. make some raids. We would have the whole paraphernalia and they would try to destroy the member for Bell Island by saying that there is nothing in his allegations, nothing in his statements. _!ill. NEARY: They are trying to do that anyway. MR.

ROBERTS: Well I know they are tryin~ to do that but they will not succeed. But the fact that they are obviously not going to vote for this 1 D ,1 i

March 141, 19 73 Tap• no. 601 Paa• 4 •~tion to ma, Sir, lead  quarely and thoroughly to the concluaion that they have something to hide. Maybe they will accept it. Maybe they will. I hope so. I would love nothing better than to be on that select committee. I have about one hundred questions myself for Mr. McLean • I have never met the gentleman,by the way, even though we both share Elizabeth Towers. Elizabeth Tower~, obviously, is a large place. AN HON, MEMBER: {Inaudible), MR. ROBERTS: The Premier ia there too, Of course, he is. The eventh floor ia a very cozy little floor in the Towers, Mr, Speaker. AN HON.

MEMBER: What about the ixth? MR. ROBERTS: I know nothing about the sixth. Okay the seventh. The Premier on one end and my parents on the other,and I have temporary boarding righ ta there. AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry, the Premier is spoken for. They are both in good hands, I guess, Mr. Speaker. If this resolution does not pass, Sir, it will be because the government do not want it to pass.

That is true, If it do not pass, it will be because the government do not want it to pass, The only reason that they could conceivably not want it to pass is that they have something to hide, If they have nothing to hide, you think they would welcome it because it would clear Mr. McLean's name once and for all.

It would clear him of all these charges and allegations and would put the gentleman from Bell Island in a very embarrassing position of having made these statements in good faith, He has made them in good faith and given his evidence,and then had them exploded as not having substance, I ask the government to support this motion. If they have nothing to hide, the motion is to their advantage, If they do not have anything to hide, they should support it. If they do not support it, it will

March 14, 1973 Tape no, 601 Page 5 be bocau e they have aomething to hide. I think the people of Newfoundland will come to that conclusion, I know the House will come to that conclusion, I, for one, am going to vote for the motion. I will vote for any motion to investigate anything. If something cannot stand investigation, then it should be investigated, I will support the motion. I think my colleague should be commended for bringing it in, accepting tl1e torrent of personal drivel abuse which has been his lot.

I will vote for it and I ask every member of the House to vote for it, It is the only way to prove whether there is any substance in these charr,es or not. I believe there is substance but until we know, until we investigate, we will not know. I am going to vote to investigate them. Thank you. HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I was not going to speak in this debate.It appears that we are all being forced to participate in it, therefore I will have a few words. Now it is a very peculiar thing, Mr.

Speaker, but it is a technique that is being refined and honed to a fine point by honourable gentlemen opposite - this resolution exemplifies this new, not new technique but new refinements of the old techniqure of the smear tactics. The honourable gentleman ended his speech hy saying that we should vote for this resolution so that a select committee could report and clear Mr. McLean's name once and for all or not clear it. Well, Mr. Speaker, I have never heard anything of any weight or consequence against Mr.

McLean's name, except what the honourable gentlemen opposite have said The slanders, the aspersions, the illusions, the abuse, the verbal attncks, the personal attacks that they have made on him is the only criticism, the only attacks I have ever heard on Mr. McLean's name. The opposition have for the last four, five, six, eight, ten months, having criticized, abused, slandered, attacked perRonally, attacked in his business, attacked in hia reputation, this man George McLean, now call on this HoURe to pass 1 <} , • . • -.t ...

March 14, 1973 Tape no. 601 Page 6 • aotion to •ppotnt a 8@l@et toai1ttoa to inv••tii•t• the un wh09e nau thoy •r• att•111Plllll! &:f> ruin and ,t.hen t.hey tell wi Utat thia i  the only proper thing to do, clear his name once and for all. 19 ,l 1l

March 14, 1973, Tape 602, Pa~e 1 -- apb Then• 1,i nClthfnp. wrc,np. w:lth Hr. Mr.L@An'11 nnm! excer,t for the ltincl Clf Yicioun 11tt11ck tlu,t in h<'inp 11111de upon him hy honnurahlc- 1u1ntl!!!men opposite>of the Liberal Opposition. The independent member of the New Lahrador Party I do not think has addressed hiMself to the suh1ect. Anyone can do that. Who is ~oin~ to be picked next to be attacked? Burns Brother and Penton, Mr.

Speaker. a reputal,le investrne11t firm who h11.ve heen in business in Canada since ti.~ e.=irly 1930' s, who are one of the leadinp; investment dealers, stock and bond brokers in Canada, hnve been attac~ed, criticized; it has been allep.ed that they are penny ante in the field.

Their business name has been attacked, their reputatf.on has been savaged, that they are just minor in this field, that they 1-.ave only been appointed for political purposes and in fact, they are only appointed because George McLean, his Eminence Rais. this sinister fip;ure who has the government by the throat, who has us by the windpipes, who has us by the whatnots, that r.eorp;e McLean had Burns Brothers and Denton appointed, one of the leadinp. firms in Canada in the stock and bond markE't.

ThE' House and the people of Newfoundland are a!'!ked to believe that Burns Brothers and Denton were only appointed because George McLean told us, told the Premier, told me, the ~inister of Finance,to appoint them. }fr. Speaker. I do take aclvice, dirertion and p,uidance from th~ Prrmie.r, but I can assure you I take no Rdv:fce, direction or p;u1c1Rnce whatsoever from r.eorp;e McLean. HI' has no :l.nfluence.. not a jot. not a tittle, not nn 1.ota of influence does he have on me and never one<'. ~r. Spea\rcr. never once. haR r.eorp,e McLenn ever Apol-:en a word to me nhout Burns P.rothcrs anrl Denton.

Ncvrr once, Not one~. r.eorrc ~:cJ.<'Rn hnd no mor(' to do with Jlurns P.rothcrs and Dl'nton hefor, appointc-d ClUr ffscnl npc-ntR than Pierre Trude-nu hnd end Pierre Trudeau h,is not l'lpokrn to me fdncc- the T.:fhf'rnJ l.c-aclerRh:ln Convention, when I was fooUr.h f'nour,h to vote for h1m anrl help fnfl:lct him on C1rnnrla 11:f nc<' l <)(,f:. w1 th thP consenuc-nt rc-su] ts 1.n our unemnl oyment r11tP that I

MArch 14, 1973, Tape fi02, Pn~e 2 -- aph m~ntfonf'il Y""'trl"clay. Th1  t11 A now t•chn1nur. Who rhr nra th!! oprm,.itton p,oinp, tn piclr on to nttack anil 111vaf(c, nnd try to ruin thr n1U11c- or in thl'I nr.xt f11w r,onth  o that they can brinr another resolution before the House anrl ask us to appoint a select cotnmittee to investi~ate that r.entleman? Who is next? What other person that the r,overru,,ent do business with or appoints to carry out a job? '!'.'B,_._ NEAR,!_:, (First

part inaudihlf') or E.P.A. will be next. !'!•_£R,!)..!5_B_I_F,_: No, those are Liberal firms that were treated very well when the Lihen1l r.overnment was in office. I do not think they will be nskinp, for nn inveetir.ntinn of that. And I do not think they will hr ankinr for ,m invcntf .~ntinn of Brother r.reen at the trade school who was moonHghtinP, and held two jobs, one full-time at the technicai colleRe 1 ~ettinr. pnid hy the public of Newfoundland,and the second unknown to the public, executive assistant to the honoura .ble itentleman opposite, where he got another ealary,unknown to the puhlic. ?-fR.

NEARY: ------ . A good man. A good man. YR. CROSBIE: Two salaries. I 4o not care if he is a good man or he :f-s on the side of the anp,els, that was an impropriety. Perhaps we should inveRti~ate thnt. }'R • NEAJ!Y : ¥R. EV.ANS: :MR; CROSBIE: -••- - a---- What about the honourable minister's ••• Wh;it about the y,sychiatrist who releBsed you? If a psychiatr:f.st p,ot his hands on the honourable r,rntleTTmn,he would never release him. He is a perfect specimen for cxnmination by a psychintr:lst, y,sycolo~ist and all other olo~ists. ~r. Speaker, we have a new techninue.

The only word that WP ht>ve hcard in criticism of r.eorp..e McLean has heen frorn the honourable p:c-ntlPmen oppos:lte and now they want us to clear his good name. What hypocrisy, what sh:.uneless duplicity to ask us to appoint a select committee to cle11r the name of the man thnt they have spent the last cir.ht or ten Months tryinr. to ruin. The hypocrisy of it all baffles thc hum;in imaRination.

~arch 14, 1973, Tape 602, Page 3 -- apb ~Ir. Speaker, we were just accused of tryini to destroy the me~ber for Bell Island. We do not have to try to do that, the honourable gentleman is doing it himself and he spent the last three years doin~ it. ~rankly, it could not matter less to us what happens to the honourable ~entleman for Bell Island. The only trouble is, it would be more pleasant if he were at least amusing or adding something to the House, but he does not.

Still, this is one of the thing when you go into public life that you hnve to put up w~th, people like the honourRhle pentleman opposite, the member for Bell Island. The honourable l.eAder of the Opposition said that ,.-,e should have a selrct C01'11Tlittec so that the dubious circumstances surroundin~ r.eorr,e ~cl.enn could be looked into. What dubious circumstancca? It is ns plain ss the nose on your fRce the circumstancea. F.very p,overnment has public reldtions work to be done, every government has tourist work to be done, films to be produced, every government does.

They do not call tenders in that kind of work because it is not the kind of work you can call tenders for. They appoint someone tn do that work. The r.ovrrnmrnt of Canado at Ottawa is this yeor ependinr. millions of dollars on p\lbli c rE>lations work and on thiR '!rind of work which they are not c11ll'fnr tender!! on, which you cannot: expect them to call tenders on,nnd wl10 nre thry ~fvfn~ it to? They nrr RivfnR ft to the advertisinr. ar,l'ndf'A nn<l tl,c- p11hl fc relnlfons pereonnC'l thnt hclpNl th<' L1ht'rnl Porty fn th<' c-Jrc-t!on. Thnt in the oyRten.

Whnt 1s h11ppcn1np: fn the othrr nine orovincea' The same thinr,,exo11ctJy. Whnt is happrninr: 1n Ncwfoundl:md? The same tldnr,. It would be foolish to stand up and deny that f-'cLean is gettinp; the work hecnuse he helped the Pro~ressive Conservative Party. Sure, thnt is why he is ~cttinr: the work. MR • ~'l!RPIIY : lie proved his worth, did ht> not? WC'.1 l the- Prorn•ssive Conservntfvc- Pnrty tldnks he did. lie> 1n r,c-ttfnr th<' wor.\< yes, c,uftc fran1'1y, h<>cnunC' he iA II nupport<'r of the- rovrrnr,c-nt, of thC' Pror.r<'sr.Jv(' Conscrv:,riv~ P:irty. Mothfnr: fs mor('

~arch 14. 1973, Tape 602, Pa~e 4 -- apb obvious. You do not need a select committee to investi~ate that. The question then is; is he competent to do the work and are his prices competitive? That is the question. As far as I know his prfc<'!I ar<' compPtHfve with whnt was beinp, chnrp,ed by people like r.c,ldfllrb. Do you n111emb11r (:oldfarb? Marvin r.oldfarb who was the one who said that politicians could be sold like tomatoes, there in 1971. The Liberal Party of Newfoundland grabbed him up and appointed him as their public relations man, strategist and poll taker.

He found that he could not ~et that bunch of rotten tomatoes back into office a~ain, that his statement was not correct. When we asked questions about that in 1971, ~r. Speaker, we did not attack Marvin Goldfarb personally. We certainly asked about Goldfnrl1 ,he was out around doinr, a public opinion poll for the Liberal Party and befnr, paid $80,000 by the Liberal Goverrunent for doinr, a so·callr.d tourist survey which never turned up or the results of it did not. WE> naked was he h<'in~ paid by the iovcrnment to do public opinion polls for the Liberal Party. That was denied.

We never stood in this House and said that Marvin Coldfarb was a crook, or r1arvin r.oldfarb was a thi.ef, or t-l'arvin Goldfarb was in dubious circumstances, or that Marvin Goldfarb was insolvent, or that Marvin Goldfarb'abusiness had a poor credit record, or that he was a carpet­ bagP,er. We never abused the man personally, Not like r.eorge r-i"cLean is being abused by the me~her for Dell Island and other honourable pentlMnen opposite. His only crir.ie in their eyes is that he helped the Progressive Cc-nservntive Party p;et elected.

You could be critical of him P,etting this work from the rovt>rnmrnt without ahusinr him oersonallv. You do not h1we to call him a carpethar:~er, you do not havc> to say his credit record ia poor, you do not have to say he is operntinr illerally and all the rest of that. Whnt we arc witncssinr. is not a criticism of the r,overnment for appoint:1.nr r.eorge Pel.can to do this work nor any fair criticism that he iR incompetent .for the work or he is overpaid for the work or that the work should not he done nt all, bec;tuse that is the real issue. The

~!arch 14, 1973, Tape 602, Page 5 -- apb real issue should be; is the work be is doing necessary? That is the real issue. Then, is he competent to do it? All we h11ve heard are haranr,ues ap,ainst ~cLean, abuse of ~cLPnn, slnnclrr of VcI.rnn and then thf' hono11r11hle p:entle111,1n has the r,all and hypoed sy, the 1.Nld<'r of the OflpoRf.tion, to pt't up nr,d ask us to vote for this select committee so that Mr. fAcLean's nnme can be cleared once and for all.

Ir would not matter what report a select committee brouy,ht in about McI.ean, the menhcr for Bell Island would be on the radio the next day to say that it was a fix, sayinp; it was a frame-up, sayin~ th;it ~•cLcan 's carpetbap:p;:fnp: had swayed the select committee and so on and so on. It would not hr.Ip l"cLectn or protect ~cLean at all. I just want to make that comparison, Mr. Speaker.

When we opposed wh11t was beinp, done with r.oldfarb and Ronalda-Peynold!'I, we nrver stood in th:ls Homie and attacked them, we did not try to ruin them. we aslred quentions such cts,were they be:fnr. pn:f<l for cloinr. work for the L:fbernl Pnrty'l Thnt question could wel 1 bl' ASY.ed ahout 1AcLe1m and the answer would he thnt he is not. ThRt :fa the d:lfft>r('ncf' :fn the two nppr.oacheB. We nll hav(' our own views as to whether }1cT,Nm work ill all necessary or unnecessary. As presid('nt of thr tre,Hmry board, I would certainly like to see some of it cut down.

There are a lot of other thinp,:- in a lot of other departments that the ministers do not agree with me on.but the p,overnmrnt feel that the~e arr thin~s necessary in thosr arPas,and ~cLean has not been sho~m to he incompetent to do it. The honournhle Leader of the Opposi.tion Mid that if we will not a~rcr to this motion,then we must have somethinr to hide. What convoluted, what <1ueer

March 14, 1973 Tape 603 JM - 1 reasoning is that? Are we ~oing to hear that all this session? The r.Qntlrman fr0111 the oppo1tt• 81d• gets up and makes some charge against the government, aoinethinK farfetched and then the government denies it and the members opposite get and they say, ''Well, if the government will not agree to have a select committee investigate this charge,the govermnent has something to hide." I mean that is thE' oldest, most foolish trick in the world. We are not going to fall for that, We have nothing to hide,as it has all been given to the House. The Minister of Tourism bared his soul.

The Minister of Fisheries bared his soul. The Minister of Education has bared his - AN HON, MEMBER: No, no. MR. CROSBIE: No, he is going to, He is going to bare both souls. It has all been given to the House. The public has the facts and let me say, Mr. Speaker, the public are sick and tired of this. The public can see that George McLean has been persecuted. pilloried, slandered unmercifully and unfairly by gentlemen oppoeite and they will respond. I would say the pro-McLean vote in the District of Bell Island today would be aeventy-five per cent. If the hon. gentleman would resign. Mr.

McLean would be tempted to run against him on Bell Island in a by-election. MR . NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. CROSBIE: The hon. gentleman has building materials on his mind and as well he should, as well he should. Now, Mr.Speaker, let us - MR, NEARY: (Inaudible) • MR, SPEAKF.R: Order please! MR, CROSBIE: If you do not have it on your mind you have it on your tongue because the hon. gentleman is an insidious slanderer, an insidious suggestt-r of corruption, an insidious attacker of persons and generally insidious. MR, NEARY: (Inaudible) • 19 5 t•

March 14, 1973 Tape 603 MR. CROSBIE: Now, Mr. Speaker, to come back to the fiscal agency. I have already stated that Mr. McLean had nothing what•oever to do with Burna Brothera and Denton being appointed our fiacal agent•. MR. NEARY: How does the hon. minister know that? JM - 2 MR. CROSBIE: Because the hon. gentleman was one of the persons who appointed him and had something to do with it since he was Minister of Finance. MR. NEARY: The hon. Premier is the boss, not the Minister of Finance. MR. CROSBIE: You are darn right he is, Sir. MR. NEARY: And the hon. minister knows that now, does he not? HR.

CROSBIE: Well, he did consult me. HR. NEARY: Oh, come on now. MR. CROSBIE: I did not hear about it on the radio like the hon. gentleman used to do in the old days. Remember when he was all heart and no brain? Today he is no brain and no heart. MR. NEARY: Consulted the hon. minister over election time. HR. CROSBIE: Now, Mr. Speaker, to come back to the fiscal agency. This ~overmnent took office on January 18, 1972.and for most of last year we continued the syndicate as it was.in Canada,lcd by A.E. Ames and Company.

I have no hesitation in saying, as I said last winter, that we found them competent and ahle to do a good job and they have done a good job for Newfoundland but this government felt that there should be some changes in their fiscal agency and there have been. The position today is that the fiscal agency in Canada is headed by Burns Brothers and Denton Limited. There is a management committee of four or five firms including Dominion Securities, I cannot remember all the other names, Wood Gundy and so on. A.F.. Ames and Company are one of the ,,nderwriters in our syndicate in Canada.

In the United Stntes we hnve appointed Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fcnn~r and all that crew together with Burns Brothers and Denton and Creenshields ,aa our fiscnl agency in the Uni.ted 195:i

March 14, 1973 Tape 603 States. In Europe our fiscal agency remains A.E. Ames and Company. A.E. Ames and Company with the German banks are in exactly the same position they were in in our syndicate in Germany and are still in the syndicate in the United Kingdom. There has been no change there, Burns Brothers will be joining those syndicates. As our fiscal agents in Canada they have to be a part of that too, We have retained A.E. Ames in Germany. Our relations with them are still good •. Naturally they regretted losing their leading place as being our fiscal agents for Canada but they have accepted that.

Burns Brothers have done so far an excellent job for us. We have had two bond issues in Canada, $20 million each time,and up to this last year, this fiscal year, Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland was unable to borrow in Canada in the last couple of years because of the disrepute the Liberal AdJl!,inistration in this province was in, They were afraid to take a chance on an offering in Canada and up until this year the largest we had ever had in Canada was $15 million, but this year we were able to have two $20 million issues which were well taken up led by Burns Brothers and the new syndicate.

They have certainly shown that they can perform well and we are hoping that they _will be able to perform well in the year coming up. Burns Brothers and Denton,as my information is,Mr. McLean has done some public relations work for them for some five or six years, not lately, not just recently, He was not taken on to try JM - 3 to get them some business in the Newfoundland Government, he did not need to be and he did not. As far as A.E.Ames and Company are concerned, I do not know if they have any problems, I doubt that they do.

They are just :Involved in the business world and they may donate to all parties, they may donate to none, I have no idea. I do understand though that they are represented in the public relations field by McLaren ,which is the same firm that used to represent the Liberal Party 1!>5~

March 14, 1973 Tape 603 in Newfoundland, McLaren& Advertising~and that is probably only a coincidence the same as McLeans participation with Burns is a coincidence. Now that is the fiscal agency. There has been a change - MR. NEARY: Carried. MR. CROSBIE: Carried. The hon. gentleman is going to be carried away when the next election comes, When the hon, gentleman from Bell Island speaks in this House, Mr. Speaker, all he does is add to the sum total of human ignorance.and that is what he has done in this recent debate and we are going to hear from him later on this afternoon.

So after we hear from him this afternoon,the sum total of human ignorance will be raised even that much more, MR. NEARY: There will be some new charges made and especially the minister will squirm out from under. MR. CROSBIE: Okay, I am used to squirming. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). AN HON. MEMBER: Inside or outside charges. MR. CROSBIE: Yes, make them outside the House will you,so that they can be dealt with properly.

I think I have covered pretty well all, No, there was JH - 4 this letter that the hon. gentleman has being trying to make something of, which I gave to McLean when I was Minister of Economic Development. "To whom it may concern." Now I had this checked by the officials in Tourist Development, I was asked,by a letter from McLean,so I sent it down to the officials. I asked,was this customary and would they think it would be all right. Similar letters to this have been given out on many occasions bC'fore.

"To whom it m11y concern, Thia will advise that the Govemmcnt of Newfoundland and Labrador have consented to the publication of the map,azine "Newfoundland and Labrador 1972" by McLean Public Relations,for which your advertising support has been solicited." All the purpose of that letter is,to show people that they had the consent of the p,overnment to puhliRh this mop,azine. There

March 14, 1973 Tape 603 JM - 5 ia no threat in it. There in no implied threat in it, It simply shows that Mr.1.ean had con11t-nt from tho C:ovcrnmcnt of Newfoundland' to publiah the maRazine "Newfoundland and Labrador 1972," If they do not want to put an ad­ vertisement in it, they do not have to, There were none of them contacterl me and said, "Do you want me to put an advertisment in McLean's magazine?" I would have said I do not give a darn whether you put an advertisement in the magazine or not. MR. NEARY: Did the hon. minister read the letter put out by Public Relations Consultants enclosing that letter? MR.

CROSBIE: I do not even know who they are. MR. NEARY: The hon. minister should read that. MR. CROSBIE: Well I am reading the letter that they were given from me,which follows others letters given to other people in past years who wanted to put out tourist supplements and so on in Newfoundland, There was nothing wrong with that letter and nothing to be made out of that letter because it is an innocent letter which just shows that there is a publication that the government has consented to and if you want to advertise in it go ahead and if you do not want to advertise in it do not.

It would be a pretty foolish advertiser who would advertise in it because they had a letter from the government consenting to them publishing a magazine. So the hon, gentleman cannot make much out of that. The hon. gentleman does not want to live in the past,they keep telling us over here. They hate it when we go back to the past,even if it is just a year or a year and a-half ago.

If we mention anything from the record of the Smallwood Administration,they cringe and twinge and winge and wind and they say that is past history and you should not be discussinr, the Liberal Administration, you should be looking to the future. Here they arc todny,all they want to do is look at Mr. Saunders and moan and groan about when Mr. Saunders resigned and the Leader of 1!J5,i

March 14, 1973 Tape 603 'I the Opposition did not know he had resigned and we are all 1uppoead to teal palpitation• becau .. h• did not know he had relian.d. Ith too bad he did not know he was going to resign. It was not our fault .. We had nothing to do with it,whether he knew it or did not know it.

The hon. gentleman forgets when he !,rings up that incident something I would like to remind the House about, How in October 1971, hon. gentlemen opposite were defeated in an election. }iow they lost it by six or seven per cent of the popular vote and how they 11a11noeuvred and wiggled to stay in power in defiance of the popular will when JM - 6 they did not even have half of the elected members. Row they twisted and turned at every opportunity to stay on in power by their fingernails and their toenails and the desks had holes in themJ

March 14, 1973 Tape No. 604 NM - 1 MR. CROSBIE: where they were gripping on trying to stay in power, in defiance of the electorate. 'fhey had lost the election and after twenty-two years it still was not enough. They defied the popular will and stayed in. They try to inveigle poor Hughie Shea and then they went to work on poor Tommy Burgess to try and stay in power, and who knows how many more they would have worked over if Mr. Saunders had not done the patriotic thing and resigned and put an end to it.

The people of Newfoundland will not forget that every one of the honourable gentlemen opposite, except the member for St. Barbe North, I think the member for Ronavista North was elected in October, if any one of those gentlemen had to resign between October and January, we would have had a change of government as we should have had. But every one of them defied the popular will. Everyone of them co-operated in keeping that machine in. Everyone co-operated so that Mr. Doyle was permitted to go off and do his damage and the rest of it,in December 1971, But we should not discuss that now.

They do not want to look at the past. I am only discussing it because they brought up poor Mr. Saunders and attached him, because he did the right thing and resigned. Now, Mr. Speaker, I for one will not vote for this resolution.

This resolution is based on ten months' slander of a man, in his person, his reputation, his character and his business, deliberate attempts, vicious attempts to injure him and his busineAs here and in Ontario, attempts motivated by political motives alone and now they ask us to appoint a select committee to clear hiA name, the name that they and they only have slandered, stamped on and tried to blacken, It would be criminal to vote for that motion. 1 n ,. .. v~ t:

Huch 14, 197'.) Tirp11 Ro. 604 "" - 2 HR, HICKf.Y: Hr. Speaker. I do not intend to delay the House too long, bUt as one minister who was involved in some work done by McLean Company, I feel obligated to provide some information. The McLean Organization did.some slides for the Department of Social Services while I was minister of that department. He did a slide, Mr_. Speaker• on adoptions• at a cost I believe of $4,000. The reason for that, to give a brief history of why we elected Mr.

McLean to do that slide, was because the younger children who were available for adoption were being adopted fairly quickly. reasonable progress was being made,at least. But children of an older age. five years and over. we were making little headway with, having difficulty finding homes. The previous administration, in its efforts to finds homes,had failed . The -advertising programme as brought in by the former administration had failed miserably in this area, had had a reasonable amount of success, Mr.

Speaker, I will concede,in placing younger children, but in terms of the children five years and over, little or no progress was made. It was decided, therefore, that a new approach should be adopted ." that we should try, make an effort at least and try something new to place greater emphasis on the children who were year by year losing the opportunity to get a decent home and a family to take them and provide for them and raise them. So we engaged Mr.

McLean to do a slide with our own officials, pointing out,in a professional way, the mechanics of adopting a child. from step one to where the prospective parents made their initial enquiry. rir,ht on up to the time when the adoption was finalized in the court. Mr. Speaker, all of the officials in that department who have any responsibility for the adoption programme, when the child welfare division viewed that slide, some of them viewed it on two

March 14. 1973 Tape No. 604 NM - 3 HR. lllCY-P:Y t and so on, or thtti• oce  ion11 • 1111prov1-1I upon it, 111•d• •u11••tin• all agree that it was an excellent piece of work, far beyond what in fact we expected. This is just one of the things, Mr. Speaker, that the McLean Organization was asked to do by this government. And yet there is no denying that this programme and many others by other departments is really one of the reason• for the vicious attack which has been made on this man personally and his organization.

Honourable getlemen opposite may attempt all they wish to imply that there was wrong doing or there was poor performance or there was patronage or there was anything of this nature, but getting right down to it, Mr. Speaker, one cannot bring in a resolution, as the honourable member for Bell Island introduced in this House, and attack Mr. McLean and his company •nd yet say that the programmes or the basis for such programmes was a good idea.

In launching their attack on the McLean Organization, they are in effect launching an attack on any and every effort to provide necessary information to the people of this province, be it under an adoption programme or be it benefits that are available to our people through the Department of Fisheries, Education, Hi~hways or any other department. It might be convenient for them to say, "Oh we agree that the programmes arc good, what we disagree with is the man who provided the programmes or the man who did the work." That cannot be, Mr. Speaker, they are hooked whether they like it or not.

They are hooked on this one. They cannot abdicate the responsibility now by saying those programmes were ~ood, lt is Mr. McLean they were after. They were after Mr. McLean. the programmes he developed, the whole bit. That is what they were after, a cheap piece of politid.

March 14, 1973 Tape No. 604 RM - 4 Well, Mr. Speaker, it is almost incredible, it is impossible for one to appreciate, and above any other honourable gentleman in this House to bring in such a resolution was the honourable member for Bell Island, the charges that he has made against this man, while he himself is the subject or involved at least in two enquiries - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of personal privilege please, I think Your Honour ruled in this House yesterday that no member would make reference to that enquiry.

I might point out to the honourable minister that it is he who is being investigated because it was he who made the charges and not me. The honourable minister is being investigated. But I think Your Honour ruled yesterday that there would be no refP-rence allowed 'to that enquiry in this House. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I have no intentions of involving myself in any details of the enquiry. I merely made reference to it. There is nothing wrong with that. I say, I repeat - MR. NEARY: There is something wrong with it. Your Honour ruled in this House yesterday that there would be no reference to it.

I would like to hear Your Honour's ruling now, Sir. ~- CHAI~.i_ The feeling here yesterday was that honourable members would do the House the courtesy of refraining from mentioning that particular enquiry while the point of order wae being resenrched, ~~~~KEY:_ Fine, Mr. Speaker, enough has bf!en 11aid on it anywny. Thr people of this province arP. well awnre ~f what I refer to. That does not detract from what I have snid. The honourable gentleman has no basis, none, he is the 111st person in the world who should bring in such a resolution. He should be seen and not heard.

If he want to apply that to any enquiry, he may, but I make the statement and I stnnd by it, This House is well aware

March 14, 1973 Tape 605 IB-1 of what l referred to, Yet, Mr. Speaker, Lo •nd Behold! we get a reanl ut t nn 11nd .11 vtc Lou11, •curri lou11 At tAck not on a company, not on the rro~ramm~ but on the individual. It must have hocked all members of this House and everyone who listened last week when the member for Bonavista North,just before he adjourned the debate, not only did he attack Mr, McLean and following in the footsteps of his colleagues on that side but began a discription of the man, a discription by size, such a personal attack, such a level, Mr, Speaker,to lower oneself.

The like has not been known, I would suggest,in the history of thill honour11hle llouae,in thifll province, Yet the very people, Mr. Speaker, who have just left govemment, the very people who involve themselves in much, much worse in terms of patronage than this government will ever,are the very people to point the finger now at thia government for every single move, every aingle act. We are all suspect. It has been an accepted principle, Mr, Speaker, that one is innocent until proven quilty in any court in the land. Not so with the opposition or certain members of the opposition. Not so, Mr. Speaker.

If you do not bow to their every whim, if you do not provide every last piece of information they require, you have something to hide. You are either involved in conflict of interest or you are involved in a deal. You are a crook. This is the inference. They do it in their sneaky little way,by innuendo, There are not enough words, Mr. Speaker, in the tnglish language to condemn the contemptible act for which the member for Bell Island and some of his colleagues are quilty of,on that side of the House,by their vicjous innuendos and inferences against ministers, backbenchers and members of this !louse.

For five years, Mr. Speaker, I sat on the opposite side of this House in the opposition ancl for five years I asked the former Premier and the ~overnment to do one thing, to do away with the Law of Immunity. Mr. Spenker, I ask this government to give serious consideration to it now. The law which protects a member of this House,as I understand it,coming from anyone who has any knowledr,e or the best knowledge of it, is to be used only in time of urp,ency or emergency where the public interest is in danger. That, Mr. Spcnker, has been abused to no end in this honourable 1CH~,,

March 14, 1973 Tape 605 IB-2 House. Everyon~ is suspect. Charges and countercharges are madet the . very essence of contempt, Mr. Speaker, not only against members of the House but against people who are not able to defend themselves, who are outside this chamber. There 1s a lot to be said, Mr. Speaker, for doing something about repealing that law.

When anyone makes a charge against a member of this House.who is here to stand up and defend himuelf, they are brought to order by the rules of this House and they are either asked to prove their charge or withdraw it against a member who sits and listens, who is able and capable of defending himself. Yet, any member of this House and particularly of late,members of the opposition, they stand in their place and destroy any citizensof this province who do not have a voice in this House, who are unable to defend themselves, in fact, Mr.

Speaker, who are unable to utter a word in defense, who have no recourse to take that member to court. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that it is because of this law that we find Mr. McLean the subject of the ridicule, the condemnation and the scurrilous attack that ~e have heard of him for the last number of weeks. Mr. Speaker, the member for Bell Island does not possess the guts nor the ordinary courage to stand in this House and say anything about anyone other than when he is protected by the rule or law of immunity. His bluff has been called on many an occasion but he has never answered the call.

It is pretty easy for anyone to stand in his place here and involve himself in a scurril.ouF1 att:ick to destroy someone'e chAracter~ when he is not p,oing to he tnken to task for it the next day. Has there ever been an honourable member who has cnr,ar,cd in such a performance when challenged to 1,tep outside the bar and make the similiar charge? Has there ever been one who hns involved himself in an unfounded charge or a charee against character? Has there every been one,Mr. Speaker, to go outside this House and make that charge? Very few.if any.

Those who did h:id good,solid grounds for thejr charge. 1. !) G :.;_

March 14 • 1973 Tape 605 IB-3 Mr. Speaker, we can talk all we wish, we can spend all the . time we wish in attempting to uplift the level of debate in this House, in an attempt to bring back the dignity that belongs to this House and to do away once and for all with personal attacks, not only on members of this House but more important on people of our province, on citizens who are outside this House. It will not happen, Mr. Speaker, as long as certain honourable gentlemen occupy a seat. Last year I was accused of a personal attack on a member of this House. Hy record is available, Mr.

Speaker, for the last six or seven years in this House. Be quite, now! During that time, Hr. Speaker, there has never been an occasion when I have launched an attack or referred to any member of this House or any citizen of this province, personally or otherwise, ~he only time that I engaged in anything which was near personalities towards honourable members of this House was in a matter of defence, as a matter to defend myself because I was constantly being attacked personally. The prime mover of such an attack, Mr. Speaker, was none other than my honourable friend from Bell Island.

No stone left unturned to destroy me. Nothin~ short of character assassination, employment record, you name it he has attempted to do it. Mr. Speaker, it :!11 like the old Newfoundland saying, "It is a long road that does not have a tum." The honourable gentleman will get what is coming to him. He will get his answer for his vicious attacks over the last five years. He will get his answer, Mr. Speaker, for his vicious attack on George McLean. It may not be the subject of any enquiry but it is this kind of attack, it is this kind of performance, Mr.

Speaker, that will bring the result• that will bring home to the honourable gentleman what he rightfully deserves. He wi.11 get that. Make no mistake about it. MR. NEARY: Where and when? MR. HICKEY: The honourable gentleman just wait. Let him,as I told him so often, let him make hay while the sun shines because he, may not be around to mAke hay very long. He should not, Mr. Speaker, .1udr,e everyone by himself. I make no threats a~ainRt any honourable gentleman or any citizen of this province.

March 14, 1973 Tape 605 IB- 4 I do not resort to such low--down tactics. He speaks of himself not me. Mr. Speaker. what is even more amaiing and which is something that no one, I am sure, on tliis side of the House - I doubt if there is anybody in this province, whatever their political persuasions m~y be , who are able to comprehend how the honotrtable gentleman and a few other1 1 (\ (' - iJ :J ::

March 14, 19 73 Tape no. 606 Page 1 - KllW former member of the former administration, former members of aovarnment,who all of a sudden appeared to be Mr. Clean,_who all of a sudden are shocked by the imple t hint of patronage, of conflict of interest, of awarding tender• and I could go on. You name it, anything. Some of the honourable gentlemen, Mr. Speaker, who had just gotten out of government - MR. NEARY: Lay charges. Lay charges. MR. HICKEY: I do not hesitate, Mr. Speaker. There is nobody, Mr.

Speaker, in this province who knows any better than the member for Bell Island that when I have a charge to lay, I lay it. MR. NEARY: MR. HICKEY: _MR, NEARY: MR. HICKEY: Well lay it. Lay the charge now. It was laid last year. No, it ·was not, It was made, It is in the process now, Kr. Speaker, of being proven. MR. NEARY: To the tenants,and the minister is being investigated. MR. HICKEY: Ha! Ha! Mr. Speaker, if the honourable gentleman wishes to think that, if that is any consolation to him (I know he should be worried and I know he is) then so be it!

I am open for investigation and inspection seven days a week, three hundred and sixty-five days a year. MR. NEARY: What about Newfoundland Farm Products? MR. HICKEY: Newfoundland Farm Products - MR. NEARY: What about all the others? The scandal - MR, SPEAKER: Order please! HR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like for the honourable gentleman to go on. MR. NEARY: Sure. Do you want me to go on? HR. HICKEY: ---- Ya, tell ua about Newfoundland Farm Products. What about Newfoundland 1''arm l'roducte? HR. NEARY: WhRt about the outstanding debts?

March 14 1 1973 Tape no. 606 Page 2 MR. HICKEY: Hr. Speaker, I challenge the honourable gentleman DOif, if he had the decency, the courage or the common guta to put it into the good old Newfoundland way. I will provide the opportunity for him. I will take my seat and let him tell this House about Newfoundland Fanl Products or anything else pertaining' to me that he can dig up. MR. NEARY: Yes, the car - tell ws about the automobile. MR. HICKEY: Up! HR. NEARY: Tell us about your trip to B•rmuda. MR. HICKEY: up: Are you going to get up? MR. NEARY: Ia there anybody else who ia going to speak in this debate, Hr.

Speaker? MR. HICKEY: No. The honourable gentleman will not get up because, Hr. Speaker, as if it were necessary, aa if we needed it, here is a clear-cut example - MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, according to the rules of this honourable House, when a speaker takes his seat, Sir, then he is finished and then the other speaker has to carry on. _HR. HICKEY: I provided the opportunity. I called his bluff. I asked him to get up. I challenged him to get up and repeat and give a little more information on Newfoundland Farm Products. Does he want me to give it? _HR. NEARY: Tell us about the car. HR.

HICKEY: I will tell you about Newfoundland Farm Products now that you want to know. HR. NEARY: Tell us about the trip to Bermuda and tell us about the cigarette situation. _HR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Provincial Affairs has the right to be heard in silence. The hon. member for Bell I11land has been for some time making remarks that are completely out of order. I hesitate to call him to order but I do so in this case. HR. HJ.CKf.Y: bear with me. Now, Hr. Speaker, before I say this, I ask the House to It is off the subject but by inference and by innuendos

March 14, 1973 Tapa no. 606 Paa• 3 yet another vicious charge 1a made against me, as if theN is something to hide. The honourable gentleman wants to kn011 about Newfoundland Farm Products and n011 I will tell him. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). KR. HICKEY: Keep his mouth shut and listen. Seeing he is so interested in my personal affairs, Mr. Speaker, he will have it. Newfoundland Farm Products, Mr. Speaker, what the honourable gentleman refers to was a matter of a writ, a writ against me for money 011ed to the Newfoundland Farm Products,which is a crown corporation of this government, of the former government.

Does the honourable gentleman want me to deny I 011e money? Is that what he wants? Well I will not. MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order, if I may? We all know what this sort of thing leads to in this House, Mr. Speaker,and since it is not relevant, I will ask Your Honour to rule this irrelevancy out of order so that we can carry on with the subject matter of the debate. _]iR. MARSHALL: The honourable member has a point of order which is perhaps well taken. I would like to draw to Your Honour's attention that the remarks that are being made by the hon.

Minister for Provincial Affairs have been aolely and wholly provoked by remarks made by the hon.member for Bell Island. While there is perhaps some merit in the point of order that has been raised, I would also urge Your Honour, with respect to the point of order, to caution and recaution again the hon. member for Bell Island to desist from deliberately attempting to bait in a base and personal manner people on the other aide of this House. MR. SPEAKER: The point of order by the member for White Bay South and reference to it by the Minister without Portfolio are both well taken.

The member for Bell Islnnd has been repeatedly called to order in this House. The Minister of Provincial Affairs was addressing the House to the point. The member for Bell Island persisted in bringing extraneoua 1!HH.,

Karch 14, 1973 Tape no. 606 Page 4 materials into the debate and while it may be completely out of order for the Minister of Provincial Affairs to reply, it would appear inevitable that there would be a duty upon him to reply to remarks of that nature. Therefore while both honourable members are out of order, if the hon. member for Bell Island persists in bringing extraneous materials into this debate, which he originated, then they will have to watch their tone. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I do not involve myself in this kind of discussion with any pride.

I, the same as any other member of this House, like a certain amount of privacy, be it my financial situation or my personal affairs. The hon. gentleman from Bell Island has on a number of occasions made reference to this, Now he asked for it,so he is going to get it. The issue he refers to in such a contemptible fashion,as if I had something to be ashamed of, in relation to Newfoundland Farm Products, is simply a matter of a writ which was issued against the firm of Towne and Country Drive-In, which I owned, for an amount of which was owed by a business which went out of business approximately two years ago.

The writ was issued while the former administration were in office.and thereby, Mr. Speaker, hangs a tale that we might get on to some other time as to why that writ was issued by a crown corporation against a minister of the crown. When it was issued, I happend to be a minister of the crown.· · Now, Hr. Speaker, that money was paid, The money could not have been paid before that. The business was closed. Does the honourable gentleman find fault with that? Would he have me pay it through some other mcans,like corruption? Would he have me pay it by means of under the table deals? No, Mr.

Speaker, If I owe money, I will owe it until I pay it by the money I earn, not by what I cnn squeeze out of someone

March 14, 1973 Tape no. 606 Page 5 else, through corruption or anything else. Now does that satisfy the honourable meni>er? MR. NEARY: A point of personal privilege, Mr. ~airman. I would like to ask the honourable minister if he is refering to ae and if he 1s, would he make the charge? Kil. HICKEY: If the cap fits, Mr. Speaker, he can pull it right down over his chin. JIR, NEARY: I want a ruling from the Chair. Kil. SPEAKER: I see no point of personal privilege involved here. the Minister of Provincial Affairs has been allowed to digress into matters which are certainly irrelevant to this debate.

I would suggest that there may be another time or place in which that matter may be debated. I would ask that he resume the debate on the resolution that is under discussion. Kil, HICKEY: no desire - Mr. Speaker, that 1• fine. I abide by Your ruling. I have Jill, NEARY: MR. HICKEY: MR, ROBERTS: (Inaudible). Why do they not listen for a change? What are you getting at? MR. HICKEY: I have no desire, Mr. Speaker, to belabour the point. I have no desire to talk about my personal affairs, none, but I am not going to stand here or sit here and have someone imply something about me.

I have nothing to be ashamed of since I was born. If the honourable gentleman can say __ the same, he is lucky, MR. NEARY: Tell us about the car. MR, HICKEY: Oh, you want to know about the car, do you? All right we will. Do we want a debate on the car? AN HON. MEMBER: Tell us about all the cars. MR. HICKEY: It is up to the honourable gentleman and the House. I can assur~ the honournble gentleman I have nothing whatsoever to hide about the car, the trip to Bermudanor anything else. The honourable gentleman has much more to hide than I - much more. 19G6

March 14, 1973 Tape no. 606 Page 6 Maybe instead, Mr. Speaker, of going into the silly details of that c•r that was used by me ,and paid for I might add~ maybe 1IIY reply to him should be in the proviaion of •ome 1nfo~t1on to the House and a reminder to the honourable gentleman how be uaed • govemment aircraft to go from St. Anthony to St. Pierre to have dinner. MR. NURY ~ot true! 1 D G !:

March 14, 1973 HR. HICKEY: Or from Burin. AN HON. ME~ER· Not true. MR. HICKEY: Not true. Tape 607 AN RON. MF.}(BF.R· No indeed it is not. PK - 1 MR. RICKF.Y: Well that will do for the record, Mr. Speaker, we can all look a little further than we can think. Later on, Mr. Speaker, who knows they might even be talked into providing the evidence. ?-m. NF.ARY: Let us see it. Produce it. MR. HICKEY: The same people, Mr. Speaker, who are so upset, who are so offset with Mr.

McLean because he was recognized by this government for a job well done and given some business wherein he performed 1 paying him for good excellent work that he does~ the same gentleman, the prime gentleman, the member for Bell Island, as a member of the former administration, do not tell the House at all about how the former administration chartered Lundrigans jet to go to Labrador,at a cost, Mr. Speaker, of $2300,when they could have gone there for $150· return\ not tell us about the former Premier and party chartering Lundrigans jet to go to Moncton at a cost to the taxpayers of $l775. Do not tell us, Mr.

Speaker, about the former Attorney General and the former President of the Council chartering Lundriy.,.ans jet to fly to Montreal,at a cost of $2893, as opposed to the going rates by EPA or Air Canada. We do not hear anything about thjs, Mr. Speaker. I am not suggesting that because that was wrong, if this government had done something wrong that it is justified. I am not suggesting that at all. But this government have done no wrong as it applies to Mr. McLean, in regards to the issue we are debating today. But who is accusing us? Mr.

Clean and some other honourable gentlemen who sat in as members of gov~rnment when instead of going the cheap way, instead of spending thr people's money to the best of their ability and getting the most out of it involved themselves, Mr. Speaker, in pure adulterated patronage hy chartering a jet fron Lundrigans at a cost of 1D7~

MaTch 14, 1973 Tape 607 PK - 2 foul' tTips - $10,073 ,when in fact those trips could have been made fol' something over $1,000. Does the honourable gentleman for Bell Island want s0111e samples of patronage, well there it is,look. Does he want some more now about the car? MR. NEARY: Yes, let us have it. MR. HICKEY: Does he want to hear about the car on Roache's Line? MR. NEARY: No tell us about the car the honourable minister had. MR. HICKEY: Does he want to hear about that? MR. NF.ARY: No we want to hear about the car you had. MR. HICKEY: Does he want to hear about the car the honourable got from the pool- MR.

NEARY: Yes. MR. HICKEY: ?o just drive around town - MR. NF.ARY· That is right. MR. RICKEY: when his own was in the garage, MR, NEARY: We have one hour. gentleman MR. HICKF.Y: That was not for personal use at all,I suppose? What was he doing? MR. NEARY: We have an hour or so, MR, HICKEY· Visiting the Girls Home or the Boys Home in Pleasantville. MR. NF.ARY: We have an hour or so,let us hear it, MR. HICKF.Y: Ile could have walked. MR. NF.ARY: We have an hour or so, let us hear ahout it. Tell us all about it. We have an hour. MR. HICKEY: of us. 'MR. NEARY: MR. HICKF.Y: Oh, no, Mr. Speaker, but I am the villian.

We are, all No, a fool. The honourable mintster is a fool not a villian. Well, Mr. Speaker, you know I am no different than anybody else, I would he more concerned if the most uneclucated, simpliest citizen

March 14, 1973 Tape 607 PK - 3 of this province called me a fool. I would be awfully concerned and I would be hurt. But when it comes from the honourable gentleman for Bell Island, it is like water on a duck's back, MR. NF.ARY: That is right. MR. HICKEY: Because nobody in this province listens to him. MR. NEARY· Thick skin. MR. HICKEY: Not as thick as the skin that is on the honourable gentleman, because that, ~'.r. Speaker, is impossible to penetrate. MR, NEARY: This is really good stuff, a good debate, good material. MR. HICKEY: I have one consolation, Mr.

Speaker, in my deparOllent now I am responsible for the environment L'ast week we approved s0111e air quality regulations, lf the members of the Clean, Air, Water and Soil Authority knew or heard or listened to some of the garbage that comes from the honourable gentlema.n,they would bring those regulations into effect in this House, they would put a stop order on it. AN HON. MEMBER: They would flush him down into the toilet. MR, NEARY: So, Mr.

Speaker, in conclusion let me just say, it is the main purpose in my rising, let me just say that I would vote against this resolution if for no other reason, if for no other reason, Mr. Speaker, even if the Opposition had proved conclusively that there was something wrong I would vote against this resolution because of the personal scurrilous attacks that have been made on that man, Mr. McLean. If for no other reason I would vote against it for that. But,Mr.

Speaker, I voted against it for more than that, because the man was only paid for performance and he was given the business because he did a top-notch job for this party of ours in changing the government in this province­ was there anyone else - MR, NEARY: What an admission that is? MR, HICKF.Y: Was there anyone else , Mr. Speaker, was there anyone better to do the job of public relation&? We did not have to wonder what 197::.:

March 14, 1973 Tape 607 PK - 4 kind of a job could be done. We knew. Mr. McLean and company,insofar a his dealings with the department that I waa concerned with, Mr. Speaker, and 'other honourable ministers have dealt with their•, let me say provided alides which were of a top-notch quality, provided slides to that department which the officials say and which I agree will provide a new approach and if there are just one or two homes provided a child, Mr.

Speaker, over the age of five who at this point in time cannot find any way into a home, then all the money,that $4,000 or in fact the total paid to George McLean, will be well spent. Nobody should know that better than the honourable gentleman for Bell Island who had the privilege of being minister of that department for three years. But no,he is not interested in that. He is the gentleman who tells us that his heart bleeds for the poor of this province. What hogwash! .What garbage!

The honourable gentleman cares about no one but himself, 0 his own political hide and it is only through an attempt to sustain his own political hide that this resolution is before this Rouse. MR. A. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, in entering this poor excuse for a debate I intent,as usu~l,to be very brief. No doubt I can understand the stupidity of the members opposit~ will as usual place themselvestn direct opposition to the great majority of the people of this province, who owe the McLean interests an unending debt for the small part they played in helping this province attain its first p,overnment since Confederation.

I also see a certain amount of jealously emanating from over there. As a matter of feet I am reasonably sure that the brochure prepared by the McLean interest for the Tourist Department contained a vivid picture of the father of mushrooms surrounded by progeny, three I bcl:l.eve; ( the member for Harbour MAin sa:ld) the member for Ronavista North in his blueberrv 1>atch 11ml the Leader of the Opposition or the member for St. Barbe North fully kilted,doing the hlr,hland fling, Mr.

McLean would be hail~d as a hero by the members opposite, and probably extolled as a creation of that never to be revived party,known as the Liberals, and would not be using

March 14, 1973 Tape 607 PK - 5 up the valuable time of this honourable House. I would suggest that the honourable maaber rithduv th• motion and consult hie acquaintances for the m11Nr, MR. SPP.A!!!l. 'ftle honourable Minister of Mines ,md Energy. HON. L, BARRY: (MINISTER 01 MINES AND ENERGY): Mr. Speaker. I r1ae on a maf'ter of personal privilege. I have to confess that I am not quite clear if the rules permit me to do so at this t1111e. However, becaua.e of the potential danger t think it is something that I should raise at the earliut poaaible moment. t refer to a certain editorial in the "Evening Telegram." .,,, 1974

(. March 14, 1973, Tape 608, Page 1 -- apb I will not criticize the paper, If I could explain to the honourable members what has happened. Last Wednesday, lfr. Speaker, I had the opportunity of making a few remarks to-the Alex~nder ~urray Ceology Club at the university and the "Telegram" coverage was quite good, I thought,except for one sentence in the coverage which was a misquote. The words were taken out of context and the impression was totally different than that that was intended or that was conveyed at the time.

The misquote would basically lead to the effect that as Minister of Mines and Energy or not just myself but the Government of the Province had not concerned itself with the pollution regulations or the environmental regulations regulating the movement of petrolewn products to the refinery at Come by Chance. I was quoted as saying that while I was not too familiar with the regulations at the present time, that if I decided to run in three or four years that I would make well sure that I knew the regulations by that time because of the number of ffshermen in my dfstrict. ~r.

Speal<er, this 1A a completely wronR f.mpreBBion that is being given. I decided to ip.nore the misquote in the "Telegram" at that time, because, I thought it would be passed over. However, I now find when I get back and I look at the editorial in the ~onday edition, the March 12, edition of the "Evenin~ Telegram" I find that the "Telegram'' has taken the misquote of their reporter from last Wednesday and dec:I ded to base an editorial on i.t.

This sort of self-genera tin~ misimpression,I think, has to be SQUelched as soon as possible because there is a danger of givjng the wrong impression to the people as to our government's concern for the protection of the environment. My statement at the time of this meeting was that hecause of lack of action in the past, the provincial government finde f.tsclf in the position of lackinr, the neceesary exp~rtise to be able to keep complete and total surveilnnce over octivities off our coast. J nleo pointed out that this.fnlls within the juriRdfction of the federal 197S

March 14, 1973, Tape 608, Page 2 -- apb government with respect to their protection of the enviromnent under th~ B.N.A. Act. My statement was that because of our lack of expertise the provincial government had to rely to a great extent on the federal regulations. This is a statement of fact, Mr. Speaker, we do have to rely on the federal regulations. We are improving our expertise in this area.

Again, my statement was that while personally 1 was not completely familiar with the envirorvnental regulations, this of course iR primarily the reeponeibility of the Minieter of Provincial Affairs and the EnviTonme.nt and he has some ~ood officials in his department who are kee.ptni on top o! the situation. Again, to me it is amazinr,, we have an 1.uue which could be a pretty controversial issue.

The protection of the env1.ronment is very much in the forefront of everybody's mind these day and we have a supposedly reeponaible newspaper generating from their previous misquote a full-fledged editorial implying that the government is not concerned with the protection of the environment. This to me is shocking and I ask the "Evening Telegram" to take note of my statements and to clarify the matter. One other statement that is made directly related to this, if I could by leave, Mr. Speaker, just for a moment, I will not delay debate on this other momentous matter.

One other criticism contained in this same editorial is a criticism of our government for raising the expectations of the people in our province by talking so much about oil and gas. Our government fs very much aware of the dangers of creating artificial expectations, of giving people the impression that there is going to be a bonanza, a Klondike off our coast. Mr. Speaker, we have clearly, time and time again. stated that is not our purpose.

The thinA to be realized here is that whether a stain of oil is ever brought ashore to Newfoundland, whether a drop is ever brought to the surface on the continental shelf• tht'! fact remains that today, this 197G

' · March 14, 1973, Tape 608, Page 3 -- apb and the r•1111O11 th11t our ROVtornmr.nt 1• talking ao much about oil and gas is to make our peop]e aware of the opportunities in this aren so that they can take advantage and not have to rely on people from outside cominp, in. I thank you for the leaway you have r,iven me, ~r. Speaker, . on the second point but again I submit that it is too important a point to permit a false impression to continue on, it is a matter of vital concern to the economy of our province.

If our businessmen do not get information about what is happenin~ off shore, they are going to miss opportunities. That is the only point I want to male. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Labrador South: MR. M. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I want to have a few words to say in this debate regarding the mattrr. before the floor, not too many. I think altogether too many words have been spoken already in this matter. Perhaps some of them have been spoken in moments of passion but what I have to say here today I hope to say quite dispassionately. I should like first of all to inform this honourable House, Mr.

Speaker, that I should like to disassociate myself from any of the disparaging comments that have been made toward Mr. ~cLean's personality or his appearance. I think this kind of thing is altogether beneath the dignity of this House and it would be an insult to the people who sent me here if I were to indulge in that. There are a few things that I have been able to dip, up in my own personal investigation.

I do not have at my disposal the resources of the official opposition, I am not able to mount a full scale investiy,ation but from the :l.nvestip,at:lon, enriuiries that I have mnde myself nn<l from the thinp,s thnt have bren brought before the floor by my honour.able colleagues here in the opposition, I should think that there is room for. concern. Without p,oin~ over all the various points that have been raised reraised and rep,urg1tated ar.ain and ap,~in, I would like to just for the 1!)77

~arch 14, 1973, Tap• 608, Page 4 -- apb benefit of the honourable members on the other aide very briefly TUn down through the point  that have been raised in thi  debate. I would ltk~ eo Ntart by 1oin~ over th• or1J1nal resolution. What we are attl!ffl~ting to do 1• decide whether or not we are going to establish a select committee of this House to enquire into certain activities of the ~cLean or~anizations as they pertain to govenunent.

The resolution states; "That a select committee of eiRht members be appointed to investjgate into and report upon the matters set forth above and any other matters incidental thereto _ ••• " There is nothing terribly earth shattering in that, it is simply trying to get at the facts of the matter before the House in a way that we are not able to do in private enquiries nor investigations. There have been allegations of the work paid for but never delivered. If that be tTUe, then that is a serious breach of trust.

There are questions as to the quality of the work and whether,or not we are getting our money's worth in fact. There is a question of a certain number of publications which it was alleged were destroyed. I understand that an agreement to have ''X" number of these copies distributed was made with the government. I would like to know whether that agreement was kept 1!>78

March 14, 1973 Tape No. 609 NM - 1 va, crri•d out? How many w•r• deetroyad7 If th••• cnnt~• th~t ware deatroyed were pnrt of thoe that were euppoaed to have been dietributed? If that were th~ ~A•e,then why? The question of the solicitation of the advertising in a private publication,with the government's endorsement, I find this very, very strange. It is highly irregular to say the least. I am quite disturbed at the coannents from the honourable member for St. John's West and the honourable member for St. John's East F.xtern.when they quite blatantly come out in upport of this practice of political patronage.

To my own naive way of thinking, I have alwaya a umed that political patronage was a thing that has always been with us but is really not something that we come out and admit and even boast about openly. I should think that is the kind of thing that we should be trying to discourage. If we are in fact to be honourable men, then perhaps we should try to. as quick as possible. get away from this practice. Now I have been involved myself in public relations and advertising and this kind of thing,and it is altogether legal I suppose for anybody to put his endorsement on a letter soliciting advertising.

In fact no consent is needed from anybody to go out and sell advertising. certainly not from the government, therefore it is hir,hly irregular for a member of government to put his signature to such a letter. To my mind at least, it implies that if certain advertisers do not buv perhaps the same kind of thing will be practiced as was practiced in the last administration when we saw liquor licences being removed and this kind of thing, when you did not kick into the kitty. Regarding the films nnd indeed all other aspects of the public relntions effort by Mr.

McLean nnd hfs company, of course I agree that we cannot tender for contracts on this kind of thing, 1970

March 14, 1973 Tape No. 609 NM - 2 but it is an established procedure that when an agency is offered such a large amount of money as this to be spent in public relations and advertising, it is established procedure that you then go to the various agencies who are capable of delivering and asking them for proposals, setting forth your guide lines and asking them for proposals as to what they will do in theae cases. As far as I know, this was not done here and this leads into another quite serious matter.

I am wondering if it is the policy of government, of thie particular administration, to go around creating monopolies,because if they are not asking for proposals, we do have aeveral other reputable creditable advertising firms, native born firms, people who need the w~rk here in Newfoundland, who,! am sure, would be quite delighted to have a chance to get at some of this government's money. If no opportunity were given to them to bid or to make proposal , then what the government ia doing in fact here ia to create a monopoly for government.public relations work.

If this were not done, I think we should find out why it was not done and whether it is government policy. I think we owe at least that much to the people of this province. The matter was raised regarding Mr. McLean'• connection with other agencies outside government. It is possible. It is nothing new. It is possible that there can be a conflict of interest. There is reasonable cause to doubt that there is not a conflict of interest. I think that it is in the interest of this House, in the interest of the people of this province and perhaps in the interest of Mr.

McLean and his firm that we should take a very close look and find out once and for all whether or not there is conflict of interest. We have had enough of all of this kind of thing in the past I think, Mr. Speaker. The question I would like to put to 108C

March 14, 1973 Tape No. 609 NM - 3 theae honourable ~entl~men on the other aide of the Houae,before th•y hrlnP. thb mAtt,.r to • vot•, h wheth•r Ol' not th~y l'amamber what went on betfore, Whether or not thciy recall why it waa they got into politics in the first place, whether or not they can remember the times when they were afraid to open their mouth because somebody might be after their job. The fear that we had tc live under, I know, I did and I lost my job because of it. We were supposed to be elected to stop all this. We were given the mandate. You were given the mandate, Mr.

Speaker, the people on the other side of the House weregiven the mandate to clear up this business in government. Now we have seen all of the thousands of the mad schemes that have been carried out by government in the last two or three administrations, perhaps not going all the way back over the twenty-two years. We have seen liquor licences being suspended. We have seen people not being able to get liquor licences because they did not prescribe to a particular political philosophy. I am wondering if that kind of thing is still with us. Some very serious questions have been raised.

All we are asking of this House, Sir, is that they consent to the app•ointment of a committee to say yes or not, whether this administration is the same as the last administration. If it be so, then that is their business and I am sure that they are going to have to answer to the electorate the next time. That is all I have to say. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, this has been a pretty long debate. I do not know how many days now, it has been r,oing on three or four days.

As usual,the honourable member for Lnbrador South has been very much to the point and has raiRed the kind of questions and the kind of debate which should he generated by any resolution that comes 1!)3~

March 14, 1973 · Tape No. 609 HM - 4 before thi• honourable Houae. There 1• not much point in 'Ill'/ repeating all of the information and the argument• that have been put to this honourable House in ao far as this debate is concerned. The honourable member for Labrador South very properly drew attention or asked what had happened to some of the copies of this publication that were allegedly I think thrown into Robin Hood Bay. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I suspect that question has already been answered by the Minister of Tourism, but regardless of whether it has been or not, my understanding ia that government funds were not used for the creation or the printing, . or the publication of this pamphlet, this tourist pamphlet that went out. Surely,if government does not spend money on the publication of these pamphlets, government again has no juri•diction or right to aay as to how· they are going to be diapoaed.

I think it is •ignificant that we have been told that approximately 70,00Q of these publications found their way into the hands of hotels and similar institutions in the province, I am convinced, Hr.

Speaker, that if there is one thing in this province that we have been very, very neglectful about and neglectful toward, that is the publication of the attractions we have in this province that will appeal to people throughout North America, Not too long ar,o I was speaking with one of the Canadian Consulates in the United States and he expressed to me a great deal of concern over the fact that Newfoundland has never seen fit to really invade the potential tourist market of North America.

He pointed out to me that nearly every week a ~inister of the Crown, from either New Brunswick or Nova Scotia or Prince Edward Island, is somewhere on the Eastern Seaboard of the United States,making 198~:.

March 14, 1973 ·Tape No. 609 NM - 5 •p .. ehe that htwe be@n arranged by th• Canadian Con1ulate officH. Tho pHch .. thoy 1nah are not •P••chH tha.t 'th• • •lntttel' of th• Crown here would make, I am UH would not be tha •kind that 1ir0uld be acceptable in their provinces. But they believe Mr. Speaker

March 14, 1973 Tape 610 JM - 1 I~ we are going to develop the touri t industry or if they are,of their province,then the things that we take for granted have to be brought to the attention of the potential customers that we can have in Newfoundland. The suggestion was made by the hon. the member for Bell Island that we should not promote this sort of. thing because there is not enough traffic across the Gulf, not enough ferries to take the traffic that is coming. That, Mr. Speaker, was not what happened this year.

This year we saw a tremendous increase in the number of people coming across the Gulf into Newfoundland. Hopefully,with the additional ferry on this year,there will be further increase. But surely the Government of Newfoundland is not to be expected to sit back, take no action, avoid using the expertise of Mr, McLean or anyone else to pr01110te what we have here and to await a decision of Canadian National Railways to provide additional acco11D11odation across the Gulf.

The simple fact is, Mr.Speaker, that this kind of publicity, the kind of publicity that we have been getting during the past year in particular,will do a great deal to put dollars in the pockets of our people. The kind of publicity that we have been getting during the past three or four Wednesdays will not, I submit, Mr. Speaker, do the same thing or accomplish the same purpose. I do too, Mr.

Speaker, draw to the attention of the House,and I do this in reply to the remarks of the hon. the member for Labrador South,on the question of public tenders, quite recently this House, and I realize I am not allowed to debate for a second time a bill that has gone through this House, but quite recently this House passed unanimously a new act called the Department of Public Works and Services Act and I think it is very significant that in that act, Mr.

Speaker, there is provision that in all the purchases of supplies to the value of $1,000 or more there must be public tendering and public opening of tenders, I think that is a welcome change. I think it is what the people of this province ask for and I think it is what they are entitled to receive. 198 1~

March 14. 1973 Tape 610 I think it is equally si~nificant, Hr, Speaker, that the provision in that act also says that in inatances such as where the a1110unt is less than $1,000 or where there is only one person in the province who can provide that service.that reasons have to be submitted and filed and reported to the Auditor General. Obviously, Mr.

Speaker, we can stay here from now until domesday and unless there is a willingness on the r,art of hon, members JM - 2 of this House to observe the proprieties and to see to it that government funds are honestly spent,that we can pas• legialation and pass reaolutions until they come out of our ears and we will not arrive at the kind of results that Newfoundlanders expect of ua and which I believe, Mr. Speaker. from what I have seen in thia House,that we aa representatives of the people in this House are determined to give. The hon. the member for Labrad~r South inquires as to what is being done with printing.

I can advise this House that, I hesitate to say for the first time because this generally gets one into trouble, but it is significant that this year, the year 1973,all of the printing of the tourist publications that will emanate from the Department of Tourism will be done by local firms in Newfoundland, Newfoundland firms, This has not been done in the past,to my knowledge. It could be that somewhere in the last twenty years somebody can dig out a brochure that was printed by Dicks and Company or Gray and Goodland,! do not know. They have the capabilities of doing that work.

I understand that this seating arrangement,which is a bit more attractive than we had in the past,was printed by Dicks and Company. Somebody apparently got the negative mixed up but be that as it may,it is a local publication and a local endeavour, My und~rstandin~ is and I agree with the hon. member for Labrador South,when he says that public relations work is not the sort of thinr, that one can call tenders on,and it is my understanding that in arrivinp. at a decision to use the work of this company of Mr. McLean

March 14, 1973 • Tape 610 JM - 3 so long as it performs, one retains him not simply for his expertise in public relations work but also for his expertise in filming and his knowledge of getting the maximum exposure of whatever he is publishing for Newfoundland.in the various parts of North America, where they do the most good. Mr. Speaker, I would like to,just for one minute, indicate why I feel that this kind of resolution does not really do much for the House of Assembly, certainly i; does very little to endear it to Newfoundlanders.

But it is the unusual approach that is used particularly by the hon. member when he in~roduced this resolution. I do not know if it is a carry-over of the sort of trepidation that the hon. member for Labrador South referred to,but the only remarkable disclosure that haa really come out of this debate ia that ve know that the security of this building is in good hands. We know that. I have never had very much doubt about it but once in a while you hear people say that they do not like coming in here working at night because there is a lonely feeling.

But we do know that security is in good hands because we know that the hon. member for Bell Island is watching it. He is watching this building very carefully,so he tells us on page 682 of Hansard,hecause he checks the security books to see who signed in and who signed out and where the lights come on and where the lights go out. It is a great consolation to me to know and I am sure of other hon. ministers that when we are working in our office,somewhere lurking in the shadows is the hon. member for Bell Island watching who is cominp, in.

He is either behind the busts in the lobby of Confederation Building or he is out behind Caspar Corte Real or somewhcre,but he is here. Out of that little observation,that a gentleman named Edward Coady who I learned for the first time or at least the hon. member for Bell Island says that