........ ~ i I PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD -3:00p.m. - 6:00 p~m. THRUSDAY, MARCH 31, 1977 ---- --

- M.z.rr:h 31, 1977 Tape no. 1431 Page 1 - MS The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I rise not to make a ministerial statement, but I do not think it should pass unnoticed that today is the 28th. Anniversay of our union as as Province of Canada. I do not have a resolution prepared. I am not sure that one needs to be prepared at any length.

But perhaps the Premier might like to move an appropriate resolution which I could second simply to note the fact that this is the 28th Anniversay, as I say, of the consummation of the union, and that the union I think has been a happy and successful one, although we should not think for a moment there have not been or there are not difficulties between the two partners to the union. But I do not think the matter should go, Sir, without some recognition and some notice by the House of Assembly.

And if the Premier would like to move the appropriate motion, take -the appropriate action,_! would be quite happy to second the motion so that the House could record the anniversary and we could then go on with the other business of the day. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER 'MOORES: Mr~ Speaker, I do not know what motion exactly would be in order other than that it is the anniversary and to take note of it itself. We all know the benefits that have come from Confederation and we all know some of the frustrations.

We know the difficult time our country is going through now in ~ny ways, economically and because of the recent Quebec election and so on. But as far as our Province is concerned we have been the beneficiaries of the union with Confederation. I think all members of this House are cognizant of that fact, and certainly to pay recognition to it at this time. I do not know about a formal motion, because I do not know exactly

March 31, 1977 Tape no. 1431 Page 2 - HS Premier Moores. who it would be directed at or what purpose it would serve, but certainly to pay recognition to it as the hon. Leader of the Opposition suggested, but certainly to pay tribute to the events, Sir, I would only be too glad to. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. , MR. HICXEY: Mr. Speaker, I wish to announce the extension of the caribou hunting season for residents of the Labrador Northern zone from April 16 to April 30.

This changes has been made in response to a telegram of March 30 from the community council of Nain in which they request an extension of.the hunting season to April 30 in view of the unusually mild weather conditions which have made travel by snowmobile extremely difficult with the result that many residents have been unable . to reach the main caribou herd. MR. SPEAKER: The hona member for Eagle River. ' MR. STRACHAN: Mr·. Speaker , I welcome the news. I asked a question in response to a request from the council in Nain and the people of Nain.

It is not only for the people of Nain 7 but all along the Coast people travel long distances. Caribou is a fundamental part of their diet. It is in fact an essential part. The coastal people often do not have meat for much of the year from now until June,and caribou supplies are a staple diet. I welcome the announcement. The people have to travel long distances,up to 600 miles by snowmobile,to get the caribour and so far -they have got only 150 out of the usual 2~000 they get out· of the very large herd, the 150,000--175,000 caribou herd which migrates between Quebec and Northern Labrador.

March 31, 1977, Tape 1432, Pagel -- apb MR. STRACHAN: I welcome the minister's statement and can thank h~ on behalf of the people on the coast. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hea:-! PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Stephenville. _MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the Harmon Tenants' Executive Committee.

The prayer of the petition reads; "We the undersigned, as members of the Harmon Tenants' Association in the town of Stephenville, in the Provincial District of Stephenville, do hereby say; "WEREAS the Premier of this Province stated on November 5, 1975, that the Province would compliment Ottawa's attack on inflation by co-operating with Ottawa in their programme of controls: :. AND. WHE'BEAS.· relit controls-;- is--one ·a.rea pinpointed by · the Premier ..... in his statement; AND

WHEREAS the Harmon Tenants' Association feel that with the depressed. economy of the Stephenville area at the present time the tenants could not withstand the burden of a 35 per cent and upwards increase in rent; AND WER!.AS very few tenants will be able to adjust their earnings to accommodate a 44 per cent increase in rent at this time of controls on wages; AND "WHEBEAS the Colllllittee cannot agree with the operating expenses for this area of concern under the juris .diction of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation as presented by the minister to justify these increases; AND

WHEREAS the Committee cannot accept the fact of this large an increase at this point in time; we hereby petition the Rouse of Assembly to order said rental rates charged by Newfoundland and Labradro Housing Corporation to be frozen or these rates to not exceed the allowable 10 per cent federal guideline. The Committee request that the proposed increases be neld ba-ck until such time as t~e economy of the area could bear them, or in lieu of this, to have : '

March 31, 1977, Tape 1432, Page 2 -- apb MR. MCNEIL: the increase spread ~ut_ over a longer period of time so to make them somewhat more bearable." Mr. Speaker, in questioning the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing on the procedure for granting approval,the minister stated that the rent increases did not have to go before the Cabinet for approval. He also stated t~at the only recourse the tenants had was to meet with the minister,which he has already done. But, Mr.

Speaker, the minister did not meet with the Harmon Tenants' Association to hear their case.: He met with them to tell them they had two choices, pay the increase or move. Mr. Speaker, I ask that the minister reconsider the proposed rent increase and to show a little understanding for · ~he people of Stephenv111e who live in their , . - . . . .. ~ . . . w,.-. -::-. · .. : .• · bo~sfng· - ~it:s- ·' .. ~nle: minis~r-"~ departm~~: shoU'ld-·se-t the· ·exauipl:e . .· . .. :·.· :• . .; .. ·. -, . : .. · .... . and stay within the suggested f~e~~l _ guidelines. SOME BON. MEMBERS: - Hear, hear! MR..

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition so ably presented by my hen. friend fr~ Stephenville, Sir. Mr. Speaker, just to summarize the prayer of the petition I think what the petitioners are asking for is to have the increase rolled back and brought within the federal ~age iud ·price guidelines. That is one alternaitve. The other alternative is drop it altogether, forget about it, have no increase while they are having their economic problems in the Bay St. George area.

The other one is to spread the 35 per cent or 40 per cent over a longer period of time. Now there are three choices and they all strike me, Sir, as being reasonable proposals, very reasonable indeed. I am surprised to hear the member who just presented the petition say that the minister went to a meeting in Stephenville with the Tenants' Association and told them they

March 31, 1977, Tape 1432, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: either had to accept the upwards of 35 per cent increase or get out. That is pretty harsh, Mr. Speaker. Pretty cruel, I think. MR. DINN: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Point of order. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, first of all I did go out and meet with the Tenants' Association of Stephenville. I did speak to them about - MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, is that a point of order? MR. SIMMONS: Make your point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. gentleman will have to either state a specific point of order.

If it is a matter of explaining, then obviously he will have au opportunity in spealq.~ on ·the petition. At . this particular juncture the hon. minister is . ' . .· : . ' ~ · • o II • •·' ..,.: . • ' • o . : • • -.' , , : .,: o l o '" . ·~~ o' .~ .. :;,· ~ ,; , ..: o ' t .. '.•·~· .. . - ... ... • • • I •,- ,: .. :.. • ••; .. :, ,'• ::~:,\.:~·: .... . ,1:: ._· .. . : "._ ', , , .. ;_.: o - : ;:,:'•; ! ,_::,~1':::'• ; : . .-·· :~ .. ~ . .--~ ·..:-rec·c;gm,::ea ··speci 'fi.c-'al.ry- :, . on::··a·:poi:nr =o·t ··order ·;··:·· -... · .. · ·· _, ... ·· >.--·, • =-· MR. DINN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The ho~. member for LaPoile. MR.. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I understood the hon. gentleman, Sir, who presented . the petrii'?.l!_: to say that the minister took this arbitrary decision and~in a very cruel way told the people if they did not like it to get out, clear out. Well now, Mr. Speaker, I do not know if that is an indication of the arrogance of this administration. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I muse point ou~ to the hen. the member for LaPoile that he is required to keep his remarks to speaking to the material allegation of the petition which is, as I understand it, relief from rent increases, but not enter into debate. MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, it would strike me, Sir, that the people who signed the petition, the Tenants' Association, the people who live in the apartments on the Harmon Corporation have no recourse to appeal.

~~arch 31, 19 77 Tape 1433 IB-1 ~-~. ~PY: The minister apparently has the final word. The minister does not even ask his colleagues if he can impose rent increases on the tenants in the Harmon Corporation. They cannot appeal to the Newfoundland Tenancies Board because the Newfoundland !enancies Board does not include the ~ewfoundland and Labrador Eousing Corporation and the St. John's Housing Corporation. So they have to appeal to this House, ~r. Speaker, .and that is •Hhat the petitioners are doing in this petition.

I saw the Premier paying attention to what my hon. friend was saying there in reading the prayer of this petition. Sir, it seems to me to be a very reasonable request indeed and I certainly hope that the minister and the government will reconsider ~his m~tter ~nd either wipe it out altogether ~Thile they are havin~ their economic problems out .~; :· ;<: ·.:'. ~; .; ~ thetre·~i:· roJ:i~ =.l.f: : :r;~~: : _ t:~::,:the-;,_\.7a.g~~ ana:~t)~ic·~::· guld.eTiheS:,or ~ s~~eaa·' ::it·· ·a~e;: ~ ~,.. .·.· .·.<~. ·:· ·:: · ~-. ·:_'f~-:~: : ·:. a longer p~riod of time. I support the petition, Mr. Speaker. ~-.

SPEAKER : The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAI.'l: Mr. Speaker, ! rise to support the prayer of the pe~ition that is presented by my hen. friend, and particularly in view of the fact that we are looking at thirty-three, I believe, or thirty-five to forty and better per cent increases in that area. I think it is a well known fact, Mr. Speaker, that all of this Province and some of Canada, at least at the bond market, is looking at the Stephenville area at this moment. This is indicative of the fact of the kind of pressure that these people and others are under as they live in this CO'Im!l.un it y .

The uncertainty must be tremendous. There is some question,rightly or ~ongly,among responsible people in the community that the operating expenses of, I believe, $200,000 a year that the minister is alleged to have mentioned of a deficit, the position is being questioned. The people are questioning the figures. It is as simple as that. I am sure the minister can appreciate that. ~Vhether the minister said what he is alleged to have said, ''Like it or lump it; or words to that etf-ect; - ram- tfot"-·prepared to say because I rlo not know. 3ut we have a very special case here

~-farch 31, 1977 Tape 1433 IE-2 ~. NOLA!.~: and this is the prayer of this petition, Mr. Speaker, a very special case. The special case is we have people who are working ~..ro weeks and off for t't<1o. TJe have people •..rho do not knol·7 if they are going to be there six months from now,or not there. They have families 1 they ha~e children,and they are living in rental units that are to all intents and purposes operated by, financed by, government. ·Now there is sometimes a tendancy to look at those things operated by , government as being so~thing apart and separate,and in some ways it is.

And often tines the reason that· it is is ' because of the politicians on all sides. Now then I believe there is a special case here that ~¥e have to look at,and this is why I rise to support this petition. !bese people are in a very difficult position. I believe many thousands of peo'ple·". :in::~Ne~~~d·~.~~,·.'ct~~¥. ·f~, a.~· ih~f'=r6~i'~·:; . pa·s':f~i.a:n: ;±gn~. nc~7"~~fth~ ::: .· .,· ~· : .=~~: ~:: ~.: ..... ~ .=~ •.. _,· : .. :~; : inflation and so on the way it is, constant rising of prices in almost everything imaginable, particularly necessities, housing, clothing, schooling, light, heat and so on.

So surely there must be a way- it is not beyond the wit of man or the minister and his officials - to find a way to at least attempt to graduate - i£ these people were saying a flat no, Mr. Speaker, perhaps the minister might have a case. But they are not saying that. t<l'hat they are sayinJ?: is, Is there not a way other than this hatchet approach, the guillotine approach, thirty-five, forty per cent. Here is your notice, you like . it, get out. You know, thirty-one April, out o~ is it thirty days in Ap~il? Thirty days hath Septembe~, April, June and ~ovember. Yes.

So therefore there must be a ~vay surely to graduate this. I mean,is . ten per cent permissible? Hould ten per cent be acceptable to graduate it, to grade it in rather than one savage slice that I feel is going to hurt these people in many, many ways socially in that area, And I do not believe frankly, ~~. Speaker, that the minister is -insensitive to the problems that are out there,and that is why I rise now and say the things that ! do in support of this petition to get him to respond as I know he r,rill . MP.. SPE..oiKF.l': The hen. me!l!ber for Port au Port.

Yarch 31, 1977 Tape 1433 IB-3 ~ .• ?ODDER: · ··r . Speaker, I a.a in a sort of a difficult position here in speakin~ t o t his pet :i.t ion }-.ecaus e. I happen to live on the ~armon Complex and I guess I am t he olcest resident on t he ?armon Complex having lived there ten yea rs . ~Tow I am not s t anding up to complain about my rent. But I am standing up to support the petition for t he people who do live on t he base .

First of all , in the tan years that I have lived there I have looked at · .. ~: . ~. ·.•· ... ··.'· .. ·· : .. _:· .. •. ~ .. · ·.~ · ·.- .;: .. _:·,·.: · . .. : .... ._"""'.' ~ .. :_.:-: ... ' ....... :· ~ :._.:->_· .. · ... ~_,·· ........ :.~. ·:._.·_· ·,· · .~ •. · .• ! ··:·.,·· :~. - ~.':. ·.10··":"· ..... .._ ... "' . -.· .• ~_-,·.~ •• : ....... • •. · , .J ' • • .-•• • , .... .-:' :·. ~· T. -' ~ - ·~--... : , , - • ......... : • 0 ; • • .J • . - .- ... " ---... . : ':: · ~ 1'·'':"" . • .•. ~ •• - - -- .• : : • · . _ . .... . ··:- :' . ··: ... • . . ·:. ·-: ::..- : .. · ~·: ·: ·. · - .. · :···

March 31, 1977 Tape 1434 PK - 1 Mr. J. Hodder: the financial statement and it works out to somewhere around $77 a month which is budgeted for the maintenance of homes. Now I lived there for ten years and I would say that that should arrive somewhere around $10,000 that should have been spent on the particular building that I am in. And that particular time in ten years the house has net been painted insid~ •. There is a provision that says in our lease that we are not suppose to paint it unless we paint it the proper colours; I have broken that one. The maintenance has been, I suppose, around $300.

Maybe the rents are reasonable at this time,but the rents went up in 1974, I think that if the government had seen fit to raise them a little bit by a little bit since that time there would be no problem at this ~~e.

I think if the government would implement some sort of a programme so they • • 0 • • • · : • • ~ - • : • , ' ,. ... , ,..; . ; · •• · : ... -, : . .. _, ~, •• , .• , ., . : •' • , ; ., . _: ,_.._ ... _ . :• ; .. :.,. ... :,• _..,.~ • ..... : ~. :.,... .: • • ~ .. , .··•:- ,. _, . · : • • • ••. -~ •. .:..,. , r . ·.~-. ,. · •·'•- ,;.~· ·. ;~-- ~ -- . !,· . . · •.. •.·:.- · .. · ·~-·." '• •' · "" -.,'• • - ,' i· ,:;: ··. · -. -:wciul·d ~ g;,·-:' u!f'· - hri~=~: :-gr· acfual · ·st:a1~ ~:··I · 'think' · t:n:r~· wcful"d~ sati~ify the ···: ·- -: . .:.:-· . · •··:;·-· ._,__ ,- . -:- ~ : ... ~ · tenants of the Harmon Complex.

But.at the same time to get a 30 per cent to 40 per cent increase all at one sum,with the economic condition of Stephenville right now and the uncertainty in Stephenville,is terrible. Now I would like to mention something else~there was also a threat issued in my·mind, and I am not r~ading from a letter but I am reading an accurate quote,and this is a letter sent by the Harmon Corporation to tenants who did not return their leases.

It says~ "We would . like to remind you that we . should have your signed supplements in our office by March 31_- that is toda~· -1977 or we will assume that you will hav~ vacated your apartment by April 30, 1977. 11 In other words, there has been a letter sent to all the tenants, 11 Eith.er - get - . th~ - leases back wh.icll thi.!'t T1P.~otiation is going on,or else get out,or else we assume you are going to get out.

Well,I have not sent my lease back so I expect that next month that myself, my wife, an~ my kids .will be on the street, If, the tenants decide to burn their leases tonight I intend to see that . mine is ---- ----- ·--burnt too. SOME HON. MEMBERS ; Rear, hear; 39S3

March 31, 1977 Tape 1434 PK - 2 ~1R. HODDER: But there are some other things; there are figures which are put out, building maintenance $419,603,that is the $77 a month for each apartment that we are talking about.

You know, that means that every house is getting that amount of money-that is not so; painting,$140,688 in the financial statement; it works out to something like - they applied paint, they did paint the outside of the houses once in the ten years I have been there, that works out to $130 a gallon applied, you know, that was the figure works out when you work out the number of units and the amount of paint and everything else.

And all I can say is that when the minister goes out and speaks to a group of the Harmon Tenant5 Association and tells them out of the kitchen, well then that is just not acceptable, that is not negotiation. I think · that is despicable. SOME BON. MEMJ!ERS : Rear, hear! AN RON. MEMBER: Well said, 'Jim' . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister for Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, in speaking to this petition some of the conversation I had with the Tenants' Association was relayed by the hon. member who presented and who did,in my estimation, a very good job.

I did give them some options however, Mr. Speaker, that I would like to put on the record of the House. Number one is, I said to them if there were people in the Harmom Complex that were having difficulty and that were not making the wages so that they could afford the rental increase, that if they made application we would attempt to get them on some sort of a subsidy programme. So that the people on the lower income scale would be looked after in that sense, if we can get that programme for them.

The other thing was as quoted here on some of"the costs; the costs that were mentioned in the information that I gave to 39!34

March 31, 1977 Tape 1434 PK - 3 Mr. Dinn: the Tenantsl Association was an average cost per unit, I think for example; is $77. Mr. Speaker, there are some people in the Harmon Complex who can afford this rent increase to my way of thinking, and to me it is criminal to ask the people of Newfoundlap,d to subsidize those people. So I put the thing to the tenants that if there are people who are in a financial bind that we will attempt to do something for t.bem. And that is the position that we laid out at the Tenants Association meeting. MR.

SPEAKER: the h01;1. member from Burin-Placentia West. • 40 - • • • • • & ••• • .. . ' .. . • • ' • • • .._J,',• o •~ ,··,,· ··,. ~:, • '.:;•,'•,' ,·, , .· ,·~ .· ~ • • I I ' • • o ' o ; o' ' o I ':, o /"• :" ; • • . . 6 o • • • o • • ~ ~ .. .. ........ · ~ : . ;-:: '!:- :.· ·· !"' :- ... :- · ·. -~' = ·"; -,··-:--···,-! .. .:. · ~ .:· : ~ : r · : ; ......... :.· .. . :-- :·:· ~ ::.: . ...: .. \ ·· ... . .. ~ .:.:· .. . . . - ... . .. ~ . · !· .~·· . ~ .. ~ ~ ·/ :-·< : .. ... :.·! :_~J': ~ ,:. ;; : ..... : .. .' ..

/ , March 31,1977 ~/ / \_.. \_ .. '-­ MR. SPE..<LTG:R: l ·- Tape 1435 AH-1 Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this petition because I have a certain number of families in the same situation where their rent is going up from t~irty per cent to forty per cent,I understand. Mr. Speaker, the houSes I refer 'to were built for the new industry and there are a lot of people who ~re working on the shipyard living in those units and those houses,and the thirty per cent to forty per cent seems an awful jump at once especially for those of them who are unemployed.

Carpenters and that who have been laid off at the shipyard - that uncertain industry that we have there:... and I have had legimate comnlaints • Bu~ I would like for the Premier of this Province, the leader of the government, if he would pass his remarks on this because when inflactionary measures were introduced at Ottawa he ·. ~ . _ ... . :.: : .1Pst no.: ti~~ : ~ . gt!tt.ing tC? .'_ tlle : ~·elevis.io~ . tp . ag~ee. w~th. . · · .. ~· · . . : · .. .... ·:.~ . · . .. <: ... : :.: . ""' • . t ~ . .... . -# ~ ~ · ::. : .· · ~ ... ,.. -· • • ... . • . .... - •. •• ! .. ..... _. :~- .... · ~ : ':'·.··.· ~:r'- - :~.

"": · ·--. ·"" ... ~-:.-:_- ~~ ~ ·~ - ·~ --·r-. ·· :-- ·:· · ·· ... ... . ·· ....... ... :.·.··· . ... _. · -.~ -.. :- ... ·. ~ - - . ~ ":' . . ·'' . everything ,wholly and solely and I would like for him to give his opinion of this thirty per cent to forty per cent jump on those unemployed at Marystown or Stephenville or elsewhere. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, ! rise to support the petition and in so supporting the petition I might say th~t I am very surprised that the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, who has got such an impact on so many people in this Province have not to this point - their operations, their dealings with the people in this Province have not come before this House either for congratulations for the way they operate or for criticism. Mr. Speaker, it would be ridiculous,it would be blue-murder shouted here today if a private corporation in this Province decided to jump rent rates up by forty per cent. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: It would be ridiculous. Well,it is downright disgraceful for ~~e people of government to propose to do it.

Harch 31,1977 Tape 1435 AH-2 MR . FLIGHT: This government, }1r. Speaker, jumped on the Price and Wage Control bandwagon - MR.. SPEAKER : Order, please! I must ask the hon. gentleman to confine his remarks ·and to organize them in terms of the allj!gat:ioti _-_:_of - ~e. petit~o;t. MR. MURPHY: Finish a good thing. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I think we are intitled to look at the increase between thiry~hree and forty-four per cent relative to the price and wage controls that we are living under. It is a fact that this Province was one of the first to go with price and wage controls.

We did it so that our employees would come under wage control. We did it so that we would probably have a good excuse for MR. SPEAKER: Order -, please!

While certainly a reference for comparative purposes with whatever percentage of an alleged rental increase,and whatever percentages might be permissable under wage and price controls would be understandable, the general area of policy of wage and price controls or any- provincial federal agreement in that line is not part of the material allegation of the petition and I think it is stretching the comparative-the validity of a certain - c~mpariso~ beyond the point of allowable elasticity. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Then I will simply say, Sir, that in looking at t~e increase that Newfoundland Housing is proposing relative to price and wage controls that all we are doing, all we are doing is saying that we are prepared to subject our people to the benefits of - or to the crimes of price control and - wage control and prepared to deny them the benefits of price control. ~Vhy should

Harch 31,1977 Tape 1435 AR-3 MR. FLIGHT: not the Newfoundland and Labrador Corporation be subject to price controls? MR. WHITE: Or come under the Landlord and Tenant Act. MR. FLIGHT: Or come under the Landlord Tenant Act. Hr. Speaker, the minister indicated that he offered the people in Stephenville, anybody in financial difficulties, that he would consider their case. Well then, Mr. Speaker, I am aware of a lot of senior citizens, the senior citizens in these complexes, and I am aware of a lot of senior citizens in Newfoundland who are renting from the Newfoundland and Labrador Corporation.

Theyp are on a fixed income, Mr.

Speaker, they get an eight or nine dollar increase in their Old .. :. ,.<. .;,:·· .. ··.:· ··. ~e: P~~sicm~·· ~ci .. ' .t:he:.:m:in~1:e~: .n~t.ifi~~t:iou ... come~ · o:e:·th~i : ·i~-cr~a~~. : ·. - . .. . • ~ • • • •• • • · : ·. _ .... 16...- ••• • -: •· .. _: . .10· .. ~ _ - : .... _ :.--.~ · · •• -.-~.:..:.-~-:.· _ ...... • _''f: · ~ · . ·-. .:.·.-~. :...._: ·-.•.• : .• ; ·; · · ~ . -"~·· .·· · •. :·' _:...~ -~ .· "·· ":· · : ... ~ ---· They are notified by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation that their rent has just gone up.if they receive nine dollars it is gone up three· or four. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the excuse , that is being used is tnat.the rent is based on income,and their income has gone up by nine dollars. But the .fact is ~ewfoundland Housing Corporation knows it - the fact is the cost of living have outstripped their increase ten times., 3998

~rch 30, 1977 Tape No. 1436 ~-!R. niGHT: and how the corporation can argue that their income has gone up by $9 and therefore increase the senior citizens rent by $3 or $4 when indeed what has happened is that their income has gone down relative to their buying power? If there is any organization in this Province, Mr. Speaker, that can take a look at the situation that our senior citizens, our lower incomes groups are in and consider that in applying rent increases or helping them keep the cost of living down,it is the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. Mr.

Speaker, I honestly believe that it is ridiculous and disgraceful for the Newfoundland and Labrador NM - 1 P.ousing Corporation to attempt to get an increase ·of forty-four =.:. --"ner. ·cent ~fr( . rent·:from·. ·the. ·tenants of those · houses· ·in: SteU.henville · · ·: · ·· · ·.; ·: ···.·:-·: .:.. -: ' :·~.._.:~:-':". ~-><-~~:·~·.:~.-:~ .... ··!··- · .~· :"\ .. ::•'·:-:-... ~:~:- : ~ · -=~-~~:_.~ ..... ~~~ ... :·:. .. ;. ·--· ~.··.;.·· _.·::·: .. · ...... .;.~~ .. -.: _ : ~- . ·~~:-:-/ : :..: _-; . ."':~: .· .-.. .. ... :· .. -:·- .::< . ~· ···:· and I heartily support the petition. SOME' HON. ~ERS: Hear! Hear!

MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte. !iR.. WRITE: Mr·. Speaker, I rise to support the prayer of the petition as presented by the member for Stephenville (Mr. McNe~ ). involving 268 families on the Harmon Complex in Stephenville. Mr. Speaker, l~st night I saw a number of people from the Stephenville area being interviewed on the programme Here and Now with respect to the increase,and I did not get the im~ression, Mr. Speaker, that those people were unhappy about paying an increase.

One gentleman said he was quite prepared to pay an increase of ten per cent now,and maybe ten ~er cent later and so on, but I think the point that has to be made and stressed o·qer and over again, Mr. Speaker, is that Stephenville is just not any ordinary part of this Province today. We have a situation where you have 7,000 or 8,000 people who are going through probably one of the most traumatic experiences they have ever had to face in their life. They are sitting there, they do not know what is going to happen to the Linerboard Mill

March 30, 1977 Tape No. 1436 NM - 2 MR. ~miTE: They are not sure if they are going to have an income next month. The mill is closed down from time to time, and then coupled with all that dealing with their families and all this trauma that they must be experiencing, along ccmes a forty per cent increase in their rent. Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the government must realize that during the past few years they have been spend~ng S35 million, $40 million a year to subsidize the Linerboard mill in Stephenville.

If I hea~d the minister correctly last night he said they were losing $200,000 _a year on the Harmon Complext. Mr. Speaker, that is a small figure compared ~.;ith the $35 million to $40 million a year or even more that _we are pumping into the Linerboard mill.

And-! think if_ we as the elected represent~tives of the Province, and more . . ' : . . . . . •' .. . . . . • :.'·': ':": : ,> ::~ ·~· .:.-:·. ·, \, :~··, .. ;. ~~ '., , .... · . a: :: ~ . ··;-:.'~~;' , • ~1 ·>· .. -~ .··: ' .:.f. .~ ·· : :··:~\•' :·.~·:·~:.: '~·· .: .... 5 ~ .:: ·, :·, . : : .. , ··. :~~ ':. ! ' _ . ;,•, .: ., •, . .... ~ . •.". ,. · ' •'o -. .ill•, •~ ··.: - ~ :..:-: · · · · particularly ·'the government, were -really fair to those p·eopl'e ·· that we would at least put a freeze on all .rental increases until some study was done to determine who could afford the rent at the moment and not leave the option of whether or not they could afford up to the people themselves to decide.

And I think it would be a relief to the people in the area, Mr. Speaker, if there was a freeze put on this particular rental increase until at least the advisory report on the Stephenville Linerboard mill was in and we would see what was going to happen to that town. I support the peti ti.on. :MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for B~ie Verte . - White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to say a few words in support of this petition and I do so, Sir, out of the firm conviction that I believe there is something special,and all of us know there is something special about the problems fac~ng the Stephenville area today. Certainly it is one of the most economically depressed areas of the Province~aod to institute a thirty-five, forty and ! believe in some cases I believe up to a forty-four per cent rent increase overnight, without • • 4 .... ·.- .. ...

March 30, 1977 Tape No. 1436 NM- 3 MR. RIDEOUT: pro-rating it over a certain period of time I believe is criminal. Another factor to bear in mind, Sir, is that the buildings that are being run by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation out in Stephenville were acquired without any mortgage whatsoever. I would assume the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation owns out right every building that they have out there. They did not have to borrow money to build them.

They got them~ I would understand,from the American people who were there, so I would assume there is very little capital investment, so all they have is the maintenance of those buildings.

So to institute a thirty-five, forty, fo~ty-fcur per cen~ rate ·. , increase ·over. such. a- shot:t. period _qf,. _t~e: l b_elieve is unrea.sonable .-. , .·-~ _:- ;: :<·- ·~·;" .... :·.:-.. ~~: ..... -~.,·.<.·~·.- :·~:_··_:t::.:·:.~·:.~>--~;'.i': ~ .. -... <_. .:-.::.' ', ·:-::~:·,.·.: -:: ·~ ' ,: .. ;~ ... :·· ·.· ::- ·. _:,._ ---~-,. _ .. ,. ··· ... ; · - .:: -'·"· · :. . ! ~ ,· ··-:: ·--- " - and· practically unbelievable-: ·- Sir, I support the prayer · of the petition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR.. SPEAKER: The han. member for St. George's. MRS. MACISAAC: Mr.

Speaker, I rise too to suppo-rt- ~is petition presented by the member for Stephenville -(Mr ~ McNeil) I do not believe that the people of Stephenville are completely against a rental increase,but I certainly believe that they are against a forty per cent increase. And a forty per cent increase in anything, whether it is rent, heat, lights, gas or whatever, is a little bit much certainly in this day and age - CAPTAIN WINSOR: Hear! Hear! MRS. MACISAAC: - and certainly in the position that the StePhenville - Bay St. George area is in right now.

And I believe that it is against all the guidelines, .4 .. - ·~ ..-­L\.1 ; .i ~- .t -::.;vv_

March 31, 1977 Tape no.1437 Page 1 - MS Mrs. Nac!saac. certainly against the anti-inflation guidelines,and I think that it definitely should be given some more consideration and probably with the idea of spreading it out over a year or a coup l e of years ,- SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MRS. MACISAAC: - ten per cent, twenty per cent or whatever. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAK!R: The hon. member for 3urgeo - Bay d'Espoir. ME,. Sn!MONS : Mr. Speaker, I would just like to say a word in support of the petition presented by my colleague and friend from Stephenville.

The petition actually draws attention to the wider problem which a lot of people are facing a " • ..,.._!,':· .-~·, •, ; ~ .• · •.:.; • '•", ' -;t • " . :···~ , ·~ .·~. "":~, • , ;:.., ~·- :~ - . ':.:"'~"-. '· · · :•:..:• •, • . •.,._: ' '::.' :',,• :: :- ' -: ·,· .. _. • ._ . ' '.1 •·' .• • '' ·: · • ,•': ····· ··: ·:·.- -··in. this · Prcivirice ··rfght ·· now . ~ - ·the : diffi'Clilty ·of.=· coping · With-." the·,·-· · .· .. . · . .':-:··" . _ .. ·-::·:: :: ... -.:· ~.:~~ cost of living.

And it was, of course, for that reason that we as a Province got involved with the anti-inflation guidelines, a wise move and a move that has had a lot of positive effects. Its affect is undermined brazenly when we have this kind of a rental increase. I realize that Newfoundland and Labrador Rousing are not technically governed by the guidelines. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, they are governed by the spirit of those guidelines. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. PECKFORD: They are not though, but they should be. MR.. SIMMONS : They ought to be.

Who but a public corporation should be setting the example in terms of restraint, in terms of not socking it to people! Mr. Speaker, we are almost inclined to ask, What masochist, what sick joker dreamed up this malicious scheme - 44 per cent, outrageous! Mr. Speaker, Tlf'J colleagues have said most that needs to be said about the rental increase. It is a shameful thing, and my biggest disappointment this afternoon was that the minister associated himself with the increase. ! would have hoped that

March 31, 1977 Tape no. 1437 Page 2 - HS MR. SIMMONS. he would have said that he would do something, that he was surprised to hear about it, and that he would do his best to undo it. I heard with interest his comment that if anyone is having financial difficulty he would do something. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that could be interpreted as an undertaking that there will be no increase. Because everv person in those leases, Mr. Speaker, every person is having financial difficulty, and the sooner the corporation realizes that the better, and the sooner the minister gets the message the better, SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear , hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ;;·. ·, "; :,···:·,;. <~!1R:· ··- ~OBms; ;·.: .·· .. ··: ··, ,~·~L · Sp:~ker;· .: a: nulJl~er- .. ~ ~f ·tny ~~olliagues.· _: ... -· ... : ."·~·. ·_ ':. ·. :· :_..... ·. :.: .:-.. ·· .'·, .. have S?oken in support of the petition which was presented by my friend from Stephenville, and I do not wish to go over the points that thev have made, but I do want to say I think they have made some excellent points and made them in excellent fashion.

My friend from Stephenville may not speak in the Rouse as often as some others of us do, but when he speaks, Sir, he speaks with effect and with reason and with eloquence. I find it conspicuous that only the Minister of Municipal Affairs, the gentleman from Pleasantville, has s?oken from the aher . side, Sir. I am not sure what that means, but I do find it a matter of comment, and I must say I interpret it to mean that nobody feels that they can counter any of the points or have anything to add to the debate. To me, Sir, the discussion has brought out two points.

It seems to me that the point raised by this petition of the tenants on the Harmon compl~~ really can be summed up in two words, sensitivity and integrity. The sensitivity, Sir, is the sensitivity of,a CroWn corporation- well,why call it a Crown corporation? It is the minister, Sir, who has approved these increases. He may or may not have initiated them, but, Sir, they are effective only because the minister has done it. . . .. ~ ~ '"'3 t....uv

March 31, 1977 Tape no. 1437 Page 3 - MS MR. ROBERTS"': The minister shakes his head, Sir. I say, Sir, the minister is wrong. They are effective only because the minister has approved them. If the minister had not approved them, then they would not be in effect. That is straightforward and simple. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the NLRC is a Crown corporation.It answers through the minister to this House, and it answers to the minister.

And the minister - I doubt if he is a director of it - but certainly the minister controls that corporation particularly in a matter such as this that is entirely within the provincial purview. It does not ev~n have the CMHC involvement. But, Sir, it is a matter of sensitivity, the sensitivity of a minister, a corporation, a government, that does not take into account the very traumatic times in which the people of Stephenville are living. And we cannot debate it now. ~e cannot go into now. But let it simply be recorded.

Every hon. member in this House knows full well that the people in Stephenville are living under the threat of economic extinction They are living under · a sword of Damocles. This advisory committee may or may not produce a report shortly. And the Minister of Finance has said 4u04

~"arch 31, 1977 Tape 1438 IB-1 n . P.OBERTS : in semi-mysterious fashion that the budget of the Province in effect depends on the fate of the Stephenville linerboard mill. And the government are so insensieive, Sir, the minister is so insensitive, that he is not even taking t~at into account. He has put in a swingeing forty-four per cent increase. The other word I would use, Sir, is 'integrity', not the minister's integrity but the integrity, Sir, of ~ corporation. They have produced some statements. I have copies of them here. Some of my colleagues have commented on them.

The financial statements, Sir, apparently do not stand up to scrutiny. There are very legitimate and real and proper questions. The minister has advanced these statements in support, these financial statements, in support of his decision to implement t~ese rent increases. ¥r. Speaker, I think that is a very real question of the corporation's ... . i"Q.-tegrit-,: . .... .:rhe tena,nts the-re .l:tav~ _yery .real. questi~ns and t~ey are . . . . . . . . . . . . . ' • : :' I : obviously entitled to more consideration than they have had from the minister in a very brief meeting, whatever the actual length of time.

So I suggest, Sir, to the minister that he should go from this Chamber and immediately instruct the Rousing Corporation to postpone these rent increases,or to reduce them to a reasonable level, in the spirit if not the letter of the anti administration regulations, of say ten or twelve per cent. And the petitioners have said they . . · will gladly-maybe not gladly, but they will willingly pay those increases, and the the minister then send out to Stephenvi~le and hopefully ~o himself to sit down with the tenants and say, "Here are the statements.

Now if you have questions, let us get to the bottom of them~' !Jhy does it cost so much to paint? Is the money really being spent on paint? All of these very relevant questions, very relevant to the very large operating deficit which according to the statements the corporation now runs up in their operations at Stephenville and which the ~inister uses as his crutch to defend his decision to raise the rents. I think, Sir, that the minister's position is one of insensitivity to the legitimate and proper needs of the people of Stephenville and the people ~Nho live in these apart~ents. 4C05

~arch 31, 1977 Tape 1438 !B-2 ~-· SPEAKEP : Creer, please! I must point out that the hon. Leader of the Opposition is now in my opinion getting into the area of debate. MR. ROBERTS: Well, thank you, Sir. I am grateful to Your Honour for bringing me back on the straight and narrow path. Let me simply say, Sir, that I think the matter is one of sensitivity and of integrity for the reasons which I have given. I support the petition. I urge the minister to take the action I have outlined. SOME HON. ~ERS : Rear, hear! MF. SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees.

The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. ?-lY .• S~ONS: ~r. Speaker, if there are no other speakers on that petition I have another petition on a separate subject. ~. SPEAKER: Do t.re have leave to revert to petitions? Agreed • . - .;_.:·. \ · · ·:·:·:. · ·. · · .. ... : ... .. ·· ·.-·'!he -hotr .. ·. niemo.er· fo.r ·B:u·rgeo-B~y .. d 'Espoi; ':··. ··:: . . · ·'·· · ·· ·.":·· ·. · ··• · ·. - ·· .. , · 1 · . .fl. Sno/ONS: Y.r. Speake!', I have a petition v:hich I am pleased to present on behalf of over 500 residents of the Bay d'Espoir area.

Every community is involved in this petition, Conne River, ~~rrisv.ille, Milltown, the Read of Bay d'Espoir, St. Veronica's, St. Joseph's, Swanger Cove and St. Alban's. This petitionr~I. Speaker, is perhaps one of the most significant petitions that has ever been presented in this Rouse. It is significant for two reasons. First of all . for the subject,which I will come to in a moment. And secondly,it is significant because of the method in which this petition was put together and the signatures were affixed. This is not one of those petitions which is circulated door to door and people sign them in that fashion.

This is a petition which was signed after a large number of people came together to talk about an issue that was on their minds. And the petition was the spontaneous outgrowth of that particular meeting. I make that point, Yr. Speaker, because it is not a case such as many of us find ourselves in where we are asked to sign petitions and we do not have any particular reason not to so we sign them. This is a case where every individual 'Nho signad that petition had travelled from their homes and their various 4G06

...---- -.Ji> .....:... ••••• ~ ....... -·--·----··· ?<~arch 31, 19 77 Tape 1438 IB-3 communities to attend a meeting to talk about the very subject of that petition. I would therefore submit, Mr. Speaker, that every signature affixed rep'resents the very deepest feelings on this subject of the people Who signed the petition. The subject, Mr. Speaker, isE~~ s~~jec;_~f un~tp~oyment and the desperate economic conditions "which prevail in the Bay d'Espoir area.

I talked a couple of days ago with a senior official of Canada Manpower, and I was told that of a work force of just over 900 people, about 925 or 930 people; 604 people from the Bay d'Espoir area are registered with_MB~~~!~r as being unemplpyed. . ... . . •·. ·. : .... ;·- :· .. .. ··: .. _ . ....... .. ... : ~ , -~- : -. · ,:. .:."" . . . : • -:; , .· .::: . .: .. . · . . .. -. ·: · : .- . .. . · -~ .· ; · ..... .. . . ..... . ' - ••• • - ~ . J . ... -~ - - - ~ • .:.. ··

March 31, 1977 Tape 1439 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: Two out of three have registered as being unemployed, Mr. Speaker, and that is not at all the full picture 1 because I would submit that there are some people who would be available for work if there were work opportunities, who would then come forward and register themselves but have seen the futility of doing so, and therefore have not even bothered to go through ~~e motions, 66 per cent registered. I would submit that the realistic, the real unemployment figure,would approach 75 per cent of the working force of Bay d'Espoir.

There are other areas of 'this Province, Mr. Spe~ke~, where the_story is as grim or nearly as grim. The meeting I referred to, Mr. Speaker, was held in St. Alban's two nights ago, Tuesday night.

One ~-ay last week I got a call from three men - three individual telephone calls - ..... · ~ . ': .: .:·.··ou·t ;o•£ wdrk')~~o:.· ifaid' · 11Wirul.a--:yo-et - ~o~e ·· d~: and"h3:iie" -·a· mE!eting'·-we· want .·~ .- ... = . .. _.. • • .· ..... to talk about unemployment?" I said, "Of course I will 1but I want to make sure that in addition to the unemployed people,who are the direct · victims,together with their families, the direct victims of the unemployment situation, I want also the employees; the housewife, the high school student, the elJll)loyer, I would like them all to come." And so I wired telegrams to the leaders of various community organizations and asked them would they come, bring their executives and pass the word that others would come.

The result, Mr. Speaker, was that the night before last in the Parish Centre at St. Alban's we had 550 people, There are only 6,000 people altogether in Bay d'Espoir counting men,women, and children. We did not have any bands to attract them,such as we do during election campaigns. There were no - ~~. ROBERTS: - Harry Hibbs was not there? MR. SniMONS: Pardon? MR. ROBERTS: Harry Hibbs was not there? MR. SIMMONS: No,we did not have Harry Hibbs or any of the bands, we di d not have -

...... · March 31, 1977 Tape 1439 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: What about Jack White? MR. Sll!MONS: We did not 'have any special speaker, no Jack White, Mr. Speaker, AllWe had, and this was enough, what we had, Mr. Speaker, were 550 people who had a very real concern. And I will say for the government, Mr. Speaker, that there was no particular flak about what the government had done or had not done, I did not particularly _ mention it, I do not think any speaker did, and we had,Mr.

Speaker, eigh~~en speakers at that meeting, eighteen speakers~because the speakers were all from the floor, people were invited from the floor to get up and state their ideas, and that was the whole purpose of the meeting. We ha~ a shorthand girl there take down the ideas, and in time a group that has been ·formed will be making proposals to government. Mr.

Speaker, the real point that I want to stress ..., ·. ': .... , ?·· · · .• ·:. .. . · ." · . ....... ~ .. -~ · ,.. : ···' " ..... ·.- • . , · ~ •. • .. : · •. • •· .. . .· .. • . - ... · · l • • • ~ • . ·.·. ~-~~t· diis: .: tfmEf .IS .. ·thit"" pe'ople~ lri:'·ihE!".l"oca.t·· S:reas: ·a!' 'thi{ P-rovince :-. ar.e : . .. :·,, ,.; ·, <~· .: .. ~ ' .•" willing to do what has to be done, and they are waiting, Mr. Speaker, for some leadership.

They are waiting desperately for some directicn, for some leadership in terms of comimg to grips with this very, very desperate, disasterous, economic situation we are facing, and nowhere is it more desperate and disasterous than in the Bay d'Espoir area. The. prayer of the petition then, Mr. Speaker, is that all agencies concerned and,insofar as we here are concerned,the House of Assembly and the government would take all possible steps to combat unemployment. ~i~ is a prayer from 550 people. It is a prayer which reflects the deepest wish of every person in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Three years ago at the government's authorization there was a study done by the Research and Productivity Council of New Brunswick - in terms of development opportunities in Bay d'Espoir, It contains a wealth of ideas that the Minister of Industrial and Rural Development ought to be looking at, It has been in the department now for · three years, and as the Premier said in announcing that study in November 1973, he saw the study as an important

• March 31, 1977 Tape 1439 PK - 3 Mr. Simmons: first step to the full development of Bay Q.'Espoir. I say to him now" Mr. Speaker, in concluding my few comments on this petition,that now,three years and three months later,the 'time has come for the second ste·p, to implement $Qme of the ideas in that report which would create a number of job opportunities. ............ ..... .. ..... . ' ;-.•. · ·· · . ~ · . : .:..; . . ·, ..... ·•· :~ ,J" · .... ··: ·: , .· •• • ., • • . .. • • · ... - ~ • •• j · .... . • ~- . . .... . . ~ •• • • • : . ··: • • .I" .·::· . ,. _ .: ·' ~ ~ ·. . .. . .- 4·Gi0

March 31, 1977 Tape no. 1440 Page 1 - MS MR.. SD!MONS: I am hoping, Mr. Speaker, that this subject today, so important as it is, will receive the endorsement and the active support, the vocal support,of every man and woman in this House. And I hope, in particular, that the Pr~ier, who has been closely associated with the instigation of the report that I mentioned on possible development opportunities in Bay d'Espoir, will rise in his place and tell us in particular when he intends to take the second step. Because the report contains a number of - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I must point out to the hon. gentleman that the five minutes have expired, and it would-have to be by. leave that the han. gentleman. can co.ntinue-. , ... ·.- · .... .. · ...... ~ .•• - . .. -:. : .. · •. · . ..... - ... = • ....... ·. • •. --.• i ·_.·;'-·, .. •'.. • .~.. :"'!·;,• -:•: ·:=~ ··: -·: ...... ... ~ .. ;;.. '·: :-~:~ ...... :~-" ' ... · · · SOME'· RON. ·MEMBERS·: · · · By ieave. · ·· ·~ ·~ .. :._ .,._ ... ... . . ,,_ .. . MR. SIMMONS: Just one sentence, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: If there is no leave then the hon. gentleman is permitted to bring his sentence to a conclusion. MR..

SIMMONS : Yes, well that is about all I want to do, Mr. Speaker. Mr~ Speaker, the report co~tains a number of recommendations, very specific ones. It looked at area$ and said, Look, this area is not a viable area; it is a pipe dream forget it. Then it took another area and said, Here is a possible area to ~reate some·jobs. And it totted up altogether about eight to - , . . ~ .. . ·., .. ·:. ~ - - '":... :. '·. . ... · nine hundred jobs-that could be- created with various sensjJ;,,;.e proposals, and then made about twenty-five or twenty-seven recommendations to government as to how these could be : ~lemented.

None of these have been implemented to date, but I hope the Premier today will indicate when that important second step can be taken so I can inform the people of Bay d'Espoir,who will be most happy and most willing to co-operate with the Premier and his administration in getting the economy in Bav d'Espo±r turned around again. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 4C.11.

·-- "'•t.-. •- .._ _ -:_ -- -a- March 31, 1977 Tape no. 1440 Page 2 - XS SOME HON. MEHBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I stand to support the petition that was so ably presented by my colleague. I must say that while the member was speaking that ministers were yawning or out of the chamber,or one of them was asleep. .~d I feel that this perhaps is the most crucial problem that faces Newfoundlanders today.

And when my hon. friend cannot get leave to finish his petition on such an important thing as unemployment in this Province, then there is something wrong with the government over ther.e. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HODDER: Now I happen to live- this ~sets-me- maybe you may think that what I say does not come from the heart, -. . ·. ~ . ..... · ·.~~·.: ·- /.·· . --,.:' ......... ~ .• : •• ;:·:.: ~ : ...... . : .... ·~- ... . .. · .. .. -.......... ........

"t ······ · ._· .. ~ · : ." : .. · , ·. . . . bUt· I repi-esent· · a district wh'ere 'we . have the-'·same . situa ·t:i:on ,.: and···. ·· ···· . :> .. · ~: · .. · .. · .;-::.; I know the type of suffering that is happening in that distr.ict now, the district of Port au Port, particularly the Peninsula part of that district. As far as that part of the district is concerned, Labrador Linerboard closed a year ago when the wood~ operation ceased, and these people are living from hand to mouth. There were 150 people more on welfare at Christmastime this year than there were last year.

That is 150 families, large families, families who were coming to me to go to St. Vincent de Paul to get clothing for them,and yet the members on the other side sit there and yawn and read their newspapers. Well that .is just fine - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HODDER: - because if that is the way you think about unemployment then it is time that we had an election and had it soon. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would ask the hon. gentleman to develop __ _______ _ hi_s_ r~rk_s into terms of the allegations of the petition. MR. HODDER: Thank you, Your Honour.

• March 31, 1977 Tape no. 1440 Page 3 - MS Mr. Hodder. Mr. Speaker, there was a make-work project in my district to help the unemployment in the district. It was done by the Department of Fisheries. One of my constituents who was unemployed got work on that make-work project. Re was on welfare. He got work for four weeks. At the end of four weeks the job was over. That was the make-work, the answer of the hon. crowd on the other side to the - MR. PECKFORD: To a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: A point of order • MR.

PECKFORD: We have tried to be flexible over here as some of these petitions have come forward,and to give hon. members on the other side an opportunity to fully support . .... ·· .•.. ~d :-- ~ami uponv~he.ir-·ideas - ~s -±_t rela.ted · to· th~ mate-rial · -" . . : ... _ .· . . . . . . .. . . . . allegations of the petition. But, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member now speaking is talking particularly about the unemployment situation in the Port au Port Peninsula,which I am sure is very serious and which all hon. members can voice for their own constituencies. !he material allegations contained in the petition are relevant to the unemployment situation in the Bay d'Espotr area and so, therefore, I would say that the hon. member should keep his remarks to the unemployment situation as it relates particularly to the Bay d'Espoir area to which the petition addresses itself. 4Di3

March 31, 1977, Tape 1441, Page 1-- apb MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: To that so-called point of order, Mr. Speaker, which I submit was no point of order but instead an intervention in the debate, a proceeding which is not allowed in a discussion on petitions, Sir. ';be hcii1.~ ge~f.b~~ from Port au Port is speaking in support of the material allegations of the petition. In so doing he is referring to a situation with which he is familiar by way of analogy, by way of reference and that surely is in order.

If hon. gentlemen on the other side, Sir, are so ashamed of the make-work programme which has been their only response - _MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! . I would think the hon. the Leader of the MR. ROBERTS: I ·am grateful to Your Honour, Si~, it is difficult to resist temptation such as given by the hon. gentleman from Green Bay (Mr. Peckford). Sir ·, the bon. gentleman from Port au Port is speaking in support of a petition. In so doing he is making reference, a technique which is allowed in debate and in speaking in support of petitions.

He is not straying from the material allegations but, Sir, if one is not allowed to refer to similar or like situations then presumably all that would be in order on a petition would be to stand here and say,·Mr. Speaker, I support ~he material allegations of the petition which are A,B,C, D,E. And if that is all that is permitted then, Sir, the procedure on petitions in this House for the last T40 ·-- years, thirteen of which I can attest to with personal knowledge, that whole procedure bas been wrong and against the rules. I submit it has not been wrong and not against the rules.

You are not allowed to speak about anything other than the petition, of course, the material allegations in it, but, Sir, you are allowed, surely, to refer,to incorporate by reference other facts which relate to the material allegations of the petition as long as you are not straying into the area of

March 31, 1977, Tape 1441, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROB ER'!S : debate. I submit the point made by my bon. friend from Port au Port is in order and that he should be allowed to continue, Sir, to continue the petition. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: '!here is no doubt that an bon. member must not enter into debate and that he must confine his remarks to the material allegations of the petition.

It has been and is as I understand it, the general practice and understanding of that term 'material allegation' that one may not develop ones remarks, the subject matter of ones remarks, on to something which is not the inater~~ _allegation. To take a matter such as unemployment, the material allegation of this petition - as I ~nderstand it it is asking for measures to relieve the unemployment incidents in . .: · :' · .-~: · · :::.· the~Bay- ·¢-~~·spof.r· . ·a.rea_ =.;.;.

T"o·-ma.i:":e-i·>for --.comP&rative··pux-poses- ·;:.-.. • ···-'····. ·>.···.-. :.· .. -~.~ ,._. .... ~.-;-. :·: ~- -.. ~··>"": ·. . . . . . reference to unemployment in another nearby area in the same Province and to do this is the spirit of comparison would not, in my opinion, go outside of the area of material allegation as we have practiced it under the heading of Petitions.

I would ask all hon. members to endeavour in their own remarks to bear in mind that when these matters are made for comparative purposes then it is for that purpose and in order to strengthen or substantiate their arguments on the actual- allega~i~n _ of a petition. The bon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I was trying to point . out that the unemployment situation in the particular area is so bad • .

I think that I wo~~-__!lever encourag~- anybody ·t·o take--welfare, but here was a person who worked for 1 four weeks and now~ beca~se he worked for that four weeks he must wait two weeks in order to go back -to welfare because be cannot get UIC. The job did not give him UIC. That is the type of situation that is happening. Not only that, Mr. Speaker, but I would -- ------------- -·-- invite any hon. gentleman on the --other - side to- take a tour of the district and go in and see some of the suffering that is there at this moment that was not there a year a3~ and was not there ~o

March 31, 1977, Tape 1441, Page 3 -- apb MR. HODDER: years ago. Now I do not care what the statistics say and I do not care what the flash sheets say, I am just saying that this is a serious problem in this Province and I think it is one that every member of this House should be concerned about and every member of this House should be doing s0111ething, or trying to do something. We are the Opposition, we are pointing it out to you. I would like to see the government take some concrete steps to help areas such as Port au Port and Bay d' Espoir. Thank you. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I certainly support the petition presented by my colleague the member for Burgeo -Bay d' :-· .:·. _~ ,~::.:.:.: .. ' .. EspQ~ Uir: ..... s:~Zoa$~·,~ · --:: . ±n. -~:: Q~~·~-· :~ : .:·- s~~·,:· du~-~-i&_- 0~: .. - -~· : ~- ,.~_-: .. , __ . .- .:.:..: ... -: "·-: ··:.·; . . ... . . . . . .... . . of the most tmportant.matters which has come before the House in this session. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 4C16

March 31, 1977 Tape No . 1442 NM - 1 CAPTAIN WINSOR: There are areas of this Province ~o1here we have a very sick economy and so sick, Mr. Speaker, that peoule are very much concerned. When the hon. member tells me that within a very short notice that the 500 or more people would gather in any community and show their concern for the unemployment, Sir, I think that is one matter for which the government must prick up its ears and take note. MR. FLIGHT : It will in a couple of years time.

CAPTAIN W!NSOR: Because, Sir, what applies to Burgee -Bay d'Espoir is applicable to a great number of districts in this Province. And now as Spring is coming on, or Spring is here - A..~ HON. ~mMBER: Spring has sprung.

CAPTAIN WINSOR: ~ people are very much concerned - ~ecause _there is very little construct~on work going ahe~d ,_and of :., .. ;.·, .. ·'-.. ~. ~, .. :;:).;... ..... ;, •. · ·f :'" .. :. _;.~: ; ~~ .. : ;· .. ~ ..... ~ .. :·· ..... :·: .. : _·:·. : f·. ~:: .•. ; .... ,_-=--:, . . ~-· . _,';-~:· ...... ·:- :.:,. ;-.:-·!'".•::·.- -:•· .·:· ... ... .... : ;; ..... ...; -~ -~. :·· . • '·'· ·. ·-:··0"··.:-- ; · : :~ .:-.:: ~:·.: .. c-ourse -. AN HON. MEMBER: No prospects. CAPTAIN WINSOR: There is no ~rospe~ts, there is nothing on the drawing board that we hear of and people are very much concerned. So I would say, Mr.

Speaker, that any member in this House today who fails to get up and support this petition will show a lack of concern in my opinion for the grave problem we have, unemplo~ent. SOME HON. ~ERS : Hear! Hear! . . CAPTAIN WINSOR: Well, Sir, I pray almost every night that this- year there be a good fishery in Fogc district because, Sir, if there is not then I feel very sorry. ! am quite concerned for the people who have to trust to that industry because there is certainly no other source of employment whereby the people in that district can make a living and support their families. Mr.

Speaker, as I reiterated first, I think this is a very imoortant and serious matter and I would like to see every member in this House stand in his place and support this petition. SO~ HON. ~BERS: Hear! Hear!

. · . :~. . . . .. : · . . March 31, 1977 Tape No. 1442 NM - 2 ~- SPEAKER: The han. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE': Mr. Speaker, !, like my colleagues, ~auld like to stand and support the prayer of the petition, signed by over 500 people from the Bay d'Espoir area with respect to the lack of work in that particular area of the Province. Mr. Speaker, as we.all know the unemployment situation in this Province is not confined to the Bay d'Espoir area of Newfoundland but to every single area of the Province. My own area, Mr.

Speaker, which ! consider to be one of the most economically sound areas of Newfoundland,is feeling the pinch at this time of year as well,and the number of calls and letters from people looking for jobs has increased substantially over last year. Mr. Speaker, ! am not ~o sure ~hat we even . . . ! • . • . . . : :" <b~~ · h~~ :~~ri;· - - ~~~pl~'·.-~i· ~·: :~t: :6f>· ~~'"~t\;\h~~' - ~-;~~i~~~ ... Th~·::· , .::··. ·:_::. ~ .: . . .. ' :.·:·· .. ~ . :.: · .. un~loyment ·statistics that we have shows that there is about seventeen per cent of the people out of work, about seventeen per cent. But r read, Mr.

Speaker, a Hansard from the Rouse of Commons in Ottawa yesterday quoting the Leader of the PC Party of Canada - MR. NEARY: Joe who? MR. WHITE: Joe Clarke - Joe who?- saying that there was thirty-one per cent of the population of Newfoundland out of work, or of the work force in Newfoundland, thirty-one per cent of the people were out of work. The Leader of the NDP Party in Canada, Mr. Ed Broadbent,who also spoke on that debate in the House of Commons,said there were thirty-five per cent of the work force in Newfoundland out of work. So r am not so sure that we even know, Mr.

Speaker, how many people are out of work in this Province. What we do know, according to the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir; who ~1~ted figures from the Canada ---------- 4i:18

March 31, 1977 Tape No. 1442 ~- 3 MR. WRITE: Manpower Office, that rwo-third of the ~eople in the Bay d'Espoir area are out of work. Now, Mr. Speaker, about the only thing that is keeping the people of this Province, I submit, from rioting in this day and age is the fact of unemployment insurance and welfare benefits. If we look back, Mr. Speaker, to the depression years ? in the early thirties .,and we remember the storming of the old Colonial Building in St.

John's, we know how bad it was back in those days and ! submit it is just as bad today except there are more benefits to sustain the people and in some ways to keep them quiet. So, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to see some action with respect to jobs in this Province;-at least . see it talked: .about;··and thzt··is s·oni.ethin~ we .·have not · s :P.P.n ·· ~n ~ · "' ·.: ·" < -· "<·-~ ::. · ...f.: .·. · ...... ~: . -: · ..... -~ - ·-- ... ~ ! · · .: :· -~~ . 4 • • ~--~. ·- • .. . .. • .. - :·· "':. :~ • • • • • :· · • • :·--- •• • · ,_._ -~- · ... '·:. •• • -~ ·; : ... · ' • • · ·, -:· : .' ' ; . : · - ~ •• ·far in· this House of As"sembly since · the House opened,and if we cannot find jobs at least talk about it and see ~f we cannot come up with some alternatives to the serious economic problems that confront this Province.

SOME'" RON. MIDmERS : Rear! Hear! ~. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACP~: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the prayer of this petition. I think it is shocking that two-third of the people in the Bay d'Espoir area are out of work. But the situation is similar to many other areas of this Province. We have situations all around the Island and in Labrador, even in Labrador West~where traditionally the employment has been 100 per cent 1 this year there are almost over I;ooo _people in Labrador City and Wabush who are out of work. . . . .. . ~ . :· ... .... :: .:. : ~ - ... ... . .

Harch 31,1977 Tape 1443 AH-1 ~IR. STRACHh"i: iri the Happy Valley-Goose Bay-central area the situation is des~erate. The business men are facing terrible odds, there is a malaise, an illness,a sickness right across the Province where people are feeling there is little leadership, little action in the attempt to try to get the Province going, _;!lat people who are supported purely by unemployment or ~-1elfare, and many people now find that it is even extremely difficult to get unemployment~ to qualify for unemployment, and have to go on the Felfare people who have never been on welfare in their lives.

And I think the whole thing leads to lack. of leadership and lack of response of this government. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please! ~1 RON. _M::E}mER; Hear, hear! ,• .... . ·.-·. ·., · .. · . .-,.MR..· SEEAKER.! . ·, ... ·_,.I bell~v~ ... the h9n., - ..gentl~m.an· , .is- st~ay.~ng: .:· ;·: , . . . . . ,' .. · . . . . . ·. . ··: ·_ ~ ,_. .;. . · .... ~ . . . . . ... . . . . . . . ' ... . . . .. . .. . . . .. '·. _. ,.; . .. .. . ·.·-: .· .. ~ ··,_ .. .. . ::' beyond the interpr7tation of the material allegation. MR. STRACHAN: I thank the Speaker for his ·ruling. SOBE RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

STRACHAN: The allegation anyway of the petition is correct. The fact is that there is a tremendous malaise in this Province concerning the unemployment and I call ~pon the government to take action and __ try and get something done about it and try to get moving, espec~~lly since we should be starting to gear up this year, gear up in the next month or so to get the economy of the Province going. I whole-heartedly support it. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I certainly rise to support the prayer of the petition.particularly - MR.

ROBERTS: You know nobody on the other side has spoken. Not a minister concerned - MR. NOLAN: -particularly when in view of the fact that you have such a high percentage of the people in that district

~rch 31,1977 Tape 1443 AH-2 MR. NOLA.N: who are and are willing to admit and state publicly t!tat they are unetn?loyed. No~.r what does this mean, Mr. Speaker? It means that we have a large segment of the population in that area,and others as well, as has been indicated, who find themselves in a position that·is foreign to them. Unemployed, dependent therefore on welfare , on unemployment insurance or some type of social benefits which,as even members on the opposite side of the House have on more than one occasion admitted,saps initiative, takes away the pride of the people and so on.

Now here we have a situation where it is no longer acceptable in this Province or anywhere else for that matter, for me to stand up and blame the Minister of Consumer Affairs or t!te Minister of Consumer Affairs to hurl insults at me. The ·. -· ·.-.~.~: / ::·. ~ - .. ~ ... _.p~?:P· i~::_ 'fit:' (hi:S.:· ii:9~~·c:7'~-~i~ :. £¢. "uk/:~-ith;.-.t#~e_ ; .. :··: :::_· : .. ~.: .. ·~-~- . ::..· ~: =. _·· ·· = · ... :: . ~ ·:. - • • • • • • • • • ~ -~ .,. • • • • • 0 0. • 0 . • • ... 0 0 ,, .: ... ~ . · : ~~ ·:. -·.,...~ . . II' :-.• '.I :•:: ·, · :·~~-- SOME RON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! MR.

NOLAN: The problem is too important. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NOLAN: Ah, they can j oke if they want to , Mr. Speaker, but this is no joking matter. MR. SPEAKER: Order. 0Tder:please! I must ask hon. members not to interject and for the hon. member to continue with his remarks, MR. NOLAN: In Bay D~Espoir, ~~. Speaker, as well as other areas,you have people nowlas has been referred to in this petition , they are leaving their families and leaving their homes as they did historically in this Province, to populate Boston, Toronto and so~ on. They are leaving.

What hope are we holding out.for the young people coming out of school this June , from technical colleges , from the university or irade schools? The problem, and it is voiced in this

March 31,1977 Tape 1443 AH-3 MR. NOLAN: petition, ~~. Speaker, is what has happened or a number of things. One, there seems to be a situation ~henever you raise a problem in this Province now for some people to say blame it on the past administration, if that one does not fly you blame it on Ottawa,. but you never accept the responsibilities of leadership which you have accepted - MR. SPEAKER: Order. Or~ex:_,please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . SPEAKER: I believe the hon. gentlemans remarks are straying somewhat. ~. NOLAJ.'i : Yes, I certainly appreciate that and I thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to conclu~e by sayin~, Mr. Speaker, that - • * • • • ,•. •• · _ · ~ • • .• • • • ... - · ' •• :- • • • : .~: • ; • .. • .. ....... :! • : . . :. •· ·.· · · - · · · ~ SOME:· Rf:JN~: · "MEMBERS::: .·: : :: :~<" · O~t , > otr ! ': :~· ."· :· ~ • .·· · --~= -:· ···;. . .-> > -~:: . ·. :: : .. ·. ·•· . . . .. . · ·: _·, .. · .. • • • •• ·: •• '"':: .. -"0 / . :. , . :· • • • .. ..... . . • ... .. t . MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, would it be unusual for to ask for a little silence? MR. SPEAKER: The han. members are asked to allow the hon member to Ct?Utinue. without ~terruption. MR.

NOLAN: Especially some of my own crowd. MR. LUNDR!GAN : The hen. gentl~man does not - MR. NOLJ.u'i: Yes, I agree. no mis-mash about me, Mr. Speaker. . - , MR. RIDEOUT: We do not talk half as loud as vou do. 'Lt!ndri.e:an' ---- ·-·- .. . MR. ROBERTS: ~Y do you not say more? MR. NOLAN~ . In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, may I say that the guts of this petition is hopelessness. No dream, no future, people do not know what to look to. They are not worried just about themselves· but their families and everything that they have worked all their lives to try to sustain. And we must address ourselves to this , Hr. Speaker.

It is difficult to realize now what one thing has come before this House of Assembly since we have met that is going to face up to answer the problems, the major one that we have in this Province today. It is largely ignored. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

• March 31, 1977 Tape 1444 PK - 1 HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from St. George's. MRS·. H. HAC ISAAC: Mr. Speaker, I stand to add my support to this petition. When 550 people gather Jn short notice to express their concern about the unemployment situation and who offer suggestions to help relieve it,I think it should certainly not go unheard or unnoticed. People all over the Province are crying for jobs, and they do not want to be on unemployment insurance, they do not want to be on social assistance, - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MRS • H. MACISAAC: - they want to work for a living.

And it is up to each and every- one. of us as members of the House of Assembly to do our part to see that some form of employment is created for those people, - SOME HON •. MEMBERS : . . Hear, .hear! . . . ~ ... . ~~ ,._r : · .. ~ _ .. : > .. ~:. : .. =·.: .. ~::·~~ .\ . ~- : . ~ ~ .. _· ~ ~- ~ .. :.· .. ··; .": :~. ;. ~:.: :·)- _.; __ :_ ~ . ;_: . ~ ·.,.\ ~ - :: : .. :· ·;: <~ .· ~~ . ~:- : ·.: .. \:. : ·.: .- ~ ·- ~ . ~ ~ ··=·. :>:. ~ . __ .. :~ :. · · ....... --:·--~ ·=·: ... ~-... ~-· ·., .;:.. ·"':· . :·= :. · ... i . ~ .. MRS. H.

MACISAAC: -to make it possible for our young . people to stay in the Province and work as their parents did. Thank you. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member- from Carbonear. MR. R. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, without any reservation whatsoever I stand to support this petition and to support it whole-heartedly. I agree with my colleague that you just cannot define the topic or the ramifications of unemployment to one specific area of the Province.

For instance ·,in my district of Carbonear,in the Harbour Grace Manpower n~cleus, and I understand .Manpower divided the Province ' up into 'sections according to office, I have two areas of my district which are what they call 'chronic unemployment areas'. And if this government, and I do not want to advance into the realm of debate, but if this government ~as going to do anything about unemployment it would have done it in the last few years. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The bon. gentlem~ clearly stated his wish tQ stay within the provision of a Standing Order,but did not in fact stay within his awn desire. 4-L23

March 31, 1977 Tape 1444 PK - 2 AN HON. MEMBER: Re~d his ~words. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Carbonear. MR. R. MOORES: My apolog~e·s to you, sir, and to this hon. House for straying. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, unemployment is a problem, and this government, the administration, has to deal with it adequately. And certainly,in my opinion, they cannot look to the Federal Government and blame them for not aidi~g unemployment. For instance, I have some figures here, Mr.

Speaker, if you will permit, that this year in the Local Initiatives Programme, LIP, and the Canada Works Programme, in my district alone those ~NO prog~ammes allocated just under $600,000 or almost 35 per cent of the total amount of the job creation programme that this government put into activity for the whole Province. · . .. ":' . MR. R. MOORES: So if this administration cannot blame Ottawa, · -- · ~-~based upon those figures they obviously cannot, then who can they blame? Certainly I do not feel reluctant at all, Mr.

Speaker, to say that this administration is responsible for not doing anything about unemployment. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please~ I must insist that the hon. gentleman obey the rule which specifies that there must be no debate. . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. R. MOORES: And in conclusion, Mr. Speaker -Thank you - in conclusion I would like to support this petition. MR.. S ll1MONS : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. SIMMONS: My colleague from Carbonear (Mr. R. Moores) is doing, I believe,a tremendous job of lending support. SOME RON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ 4(24 ..

March 31, 1977 Tape 1444 PK - 3 MR. SD1MONS: Lending support, Mr. Speaker, to one of the most important and serious issues we have discussed in this House. AN HON. MEMBER: What is your point of order about? MR. SIMMONS: And, Mr. Speaker, my point of order is that the Minister of Industrial Development, the member from Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan),for some reason has undertake~ to interpret his tra~ of_ t~ought, to harass and interject, and there is no need of it, Mr. Speaker. This is a subject we are all interested in.

And certainly goodness he can either get up and participate and support the petition or keep quiet,and let members who have the concern for their members - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Rear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: to do so. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. LUNDRIGAN : I am not belitting or chiding or anything the hon. member from Cai--bonear (Mr. R. Moores) - the two gentlemen here the Leader of the Oppositon and his colleague to his left - - --.. -~ ____ .. __ . MR. SIMMONS:: S"ti"c:E""to-the poi.Iit a£ ·Order:--sd.c~- -to_ t~e- poin~ _ o:f order. now! 4(25

!-'arch 31, 1977 Tape 1445 IB-1 ~- . L r~ nRI GPJ1: ~r. Speaker, is there any Hay to deal with that ignoramus from that?articular community? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! }(1)_. SPE.AKEP.: Order, please! Order 7 please! MP.. :P.OBERTS : ~7ithdraw. ~. SPEAKER: I would require the hon. member to withdraw the term 'ignoramus'. ?-'R. LuriDRIG~T: Xr. Speaker, I have to call myself a liar and withdraw the particular term. ~ut, Your Honour, I am suggesting that the hon. gentleman for Carbonear (Mr. R. ¥oores) is making a point.

As a matter of fact I sort of felt that he was maybe in order to attack the government,if he feels like it, attack the federal _goverriment, attack any government. But his two colleagues are not being serious in listening they are interferring with the rights of the hon. member. S O~ RON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.. SPEAKEP.: Order, please! Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR . ROBERTS: ~r. Speaker, the hon. gentleman for Grand Falls (~!r.

Lundrigan) has once again indul~ed in one of his favourite tricks of trying to disturb and provoke the even tenor of the House by unparliamentary and improper remarks. There has been nothing said, Sir, by anyone on this side that was in any way out of order,I submit. The hon. gentleman for Grand Falls (Mr. t~drigan), Sir, insists upon displaying his ignorance of the proper parliamentary procedures by shouting across the House rude and insulting remarks which he may or may not believe.

But all I can say, Sir, is that he is out · of order to do so,and he is even more out of order to Jo so in allegedly speaking in reply to a point of order. And we expect better than that , Sir, from a man ~mo has the dignity of a minister of the Crown and who has served, as he has reminded us on innumerable occasions,in another place until the voters, Sir, relieved him of that responsibility.

Ya rch 31 , 19 77 Tape 1445 IB-2 f!P.. POBE:O..TS : But, Sir, there is no point of order mace by the hon. gentleman for Grand Falls 0~r. Lt.mdrigan). ~y friend from Bur~eo­ Bay d 'Espoir ('1'Ar. Simmons) has t!'ade a perfectly valid one in my viet-1 and I suggest-or submit, Sir, that the gentle~an for Carbonear (~r. R. Moores) should be allo~d to finish his remarks without the rudeness of the gentleman for Grand Falls (~r. Lundrigan). SO~ RON. MEMBERS: Fear, hear! :t-'R • SPEAKE P.: Order, please!

The point of order is whether the hon. member has the right to be heard without interruption tmich he obviously does. '!'he hon. member for Carbonear (~r. R. ~oores)if he has not concluded his remarks is now called upon to do so. SOME HON. ~EPS: Hear, hear! ~::.. ··::~···"·: ·-.,;-~M!t..·-R. ..

MOORES:..., ";'Y~.,}!J:~~p~alf~:'!:"'~-~J;-9..~:-=·t~-7~·.~· .,·~~~-~g.:~IU':.-~t;:r;.l:}_~~i·. · ;:'·.-·.- .. ..-•.~·:.:~"'-;~··;....,._ . . . . . . . indignation to the House I t•rould like to close by saying that unemployment in my district is a very serious problem, one that requires immediate attention,and I do not believe that this government has done all it can do to alleviate it. I support this petition whole-heartedly. Thank you very much. SO!-'E 'F!ON. YE~ERS : Hear, hear! ~-. SP1'".&.KE'R : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MF.. ROBEP1'S : ~r.

Speaker, I would like to say a few words in support of the petition. I think it is significant, Sir, that there have been seven or ei~ht or ten speakers. I have not been keeping track of them, but all ha~e come from this side of the Rouse, Sir. Nobody on the other side is concerned enough obviously to speak on such an important matter as a portion of the P~ovince where 600 out of 900 able-bodied men and women, two out of every three,are registered as looking for work, Sir.

It that is not a serious situation, then, Sir, I do not know, I cannot conceive of anything that would possibly reauire the intervention of the government if that does no~. And it is significant, Sir, that not a minister - there have been two, four six, eight, nine of the hon. ministers in the House for part of this

~arch 31, 1977 Taep 1445 IB-3 ~fR • POBERTS : discussion, Sir - not one of them has seen fit even to stand to comment: upon it. !-fr. Speaker, you could only vie~v the situation in Bay d'Espoir,I submit,in the total provincial context. The people in Bay d'Espoir have asked for government action. ~r. Speaker, it is not irrelevant,! would hope 9 to note that in the Province right now, according to the government's own figures, He have 30,000 people out of work. And that is not counting the 30,000 others ~mo have dropped out of the work fo.rce since l.ast July.

So out of a work force of 200,000 last year Y7e have 145,000 employed now. Sir, that is close to the thirty to thirty-five per cent figure that Yr. Clark and Mr. Broadbent at Ottawa have talked about. The welfare~ able- bodied relief, the final resort, the place 1;-1here you ~o when you so many of the constitu~nts in the area represented by my friend from Port au Port (Mr. Hodder), it is up by thirteen per cent, Sir, in January 1977 over January 1976, up thirteen per cent, Sir, from . ·9,400 _ f~llies_-~ at~;b~tt-: fi;~ - to -~ -fa~ily. , that is- 50,000 people.

And it is up now to 10,600 families, 54,000 or 55,000 people living on welfare alone. And not a minister, Sjr, not a minister - the Premier cannot even stay in his seat to hear the discussion - and not a minister rises. SO~ RON. ~EFS : Rear, hear!

March 31, 1977 Tape No. 1446 NM- 1 MR. ROBERTS: The people of Bay d'Espoir, Sir, and the people of this Province are entitled to better than that. They have signed this petition, five hundred and some come out on short notice to a meeting, not a great public meeting for political purposes or for entertainment, but a meeting, Sir, to talk about a problem which they obviously take with the greatest of seriousness.

And, Sir, not only do the people of the Province deserve ministers to speak in this House to outline the government's concern and the government's action, but, Sir, they deserve some concern and they ceserve some action, and . I submit they are getting neither. SOME HON ~ MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR • . PECKFORD: Mr. Speake r , I submit that the hon.

Leader of the ·: ·~·- .. ·., .. '37 ..... ~ ·:."' 4·~- i- .-...t• \ :':\ ~· .. ;=;-: =':: .. : ....,; ~· =-• ..,.;~·~~ fjr :- .~"-~: !'" ~· .;',' ':?f-·-.:oJ." :~ .. · , ;-:~ . ..., • .,..~fll! ·~-.· :.:· ;.,._ ·4.- .. ~ .. ,· .. ~,.:~ .. · :...-~.~·\• '•,..i-: .•4>· ,..;.. __ -;:--:~.~ ... ;...- "!;. (.· .. ·.;:.~ ·-~ ·.~ r' ;,.\.i · .. :-c•;·.~~ .. -~.,r- ~~"',r.- Opposi tion is getting i nto t he rea lm of debate which is prohibit~n under the support of petitious,outlined ln Standing Order 90, on page 47. So I submit that the hon.

Leader of the Opposition is definitely getting into the area of debate and therefore should be . ..... .. restrained. ~ . SIMMONS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Point of order. MR. SIMMONS: The point of order raised by the member for Green Bay (Mr. Peckford), the Minister of Mines and Energy, you know,can only be viewed as another att~pt to interru~t what is, I believe, Mr. Speaker, a very excellent point being made by my colleague. The temp tat ion is there, ~1r.

Speaker, though my colleague has not yielded to it, the temptation is there to get into debate on this matter because it is the only opportunity we have. The government will not let us have a debate on une~loyment. ~C29

~arch 31, 1977 Ta-pe No. 1446 NH- 2 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Order, please! The actual point of order was an allegation that the Leader of the Opposition was entering into the realm of debate. I am not at this time prepared to rule the hon. Leader of the Opposition's remarks out of order. It was a borde~line situation, I would ask him in continuing his remarks to bear in mind the .actual stipulation of the Standing Order prohibiting debate. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I shall of course endeavour to do so in the spirit that to err is human, to forgive is devine. Mr.

Speaker, I obviously was a little strong, or a little heated, but it is a subject on which I feel very strongly, Sir.

The people in Bay d 'Espoir are concerned, and anybody ~;ho is the .. least bit knowledgeable about the affairs of this Province, Sir, · . .. · :~· ~:. ;··.·-~_.,-~"i·-· .. ~: ......... 4 :.-..~ • .:.:~::.._ -~'! -~~,:· ..... ;_ ~;: ·:· ';·~-1 ~~~:· .. ~· ... ·~ .,.-~ ........ -~ - ~.-·;~ · :·,~~! :··~·;-.. _• '"·?··~---: · ~-.....r~;.- - J.:~·-··.•.7J, .. ~:..: ;-:· ,..·~;-- - ~~ .. .:. •. · :~ _ :.. .... '".;;.-:.'!'· .:~:_.~~;,~-~- ..,_.. ::: ~·;'"':._ :;.~·~~- :-:·: who travels about at all must realize ~t is the most compelling fact that we face today, Sir, in this Province~ I think the word used, I think it was my friend from Eagle River (Mr.

Strachan) m&laise, the growing maiaise "''that -·is 'spr-eading throughout this ·- - - ; · ·- ---- -- -- - ------ -- ----- ----- ---- . . --- . - ------- -- . Province and to be g;-e~_ ~ed by an attitude of tr.e ministry which can only be compared to the late Queen of France, Marie Antoinette, who is alleged to have said, "Let them eat cake," shortly, Sir, before her head was sacrificed up to a greater cause than that of cake eaters. Mr. Speaker, the ministry have made no response. I ask them now,in speaking in support of this petition, the gentleman from Grand Falls (Mr.

Lundrigan), Sir, to tell us what jobs his departmental efforts have created, and the gentleman from Green Bay (Mr. Peckford),and the gentleman from St. John's Centre, and above all the gentleman from Trinity North (Mr. Brett), the Minister of Social Services. We cannot debate that make-work programme, Sir. We will if ever

March 31, 1977 Tape No. 1446 NM- 3 MR. ROBERTS: they have the courage to call the estimates of that minister's department and I, Sir, would like to do it for the sorts of reasons my friend from Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) has raised, Sir, and I could raise others of the most ill-conceived and badly administered ~rogramme we have ever seen, Mr. Speaker. MR. PECKFQRD: A point of order. ~. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR.

PECKFORD: Whether or not the make-work programme that has been announced and that is now into operation by this government is good, bad or indifferent, and to continue to debate the merits of that particular programme,in my~opinion,I suggest, Your P.onour, does enter the realm of debate in criticizing the-government on these make-work programme,and I think that the hon.

Leader ~ :~~._;.. \.· ., .... !_... ~ •• -~"""' ··'~.- ................... ~.-.. ~....t:~;,..:.-.: ·~~~ - ........ ~ ...: .~-:-.~- -- ~ ... ·. ~ :i ·. :·--· .. :.."'! ..... ;. ~ ~: ~ ... !i ~=~ · ·:. .. _ ..... _ .... . _ .. if,·.-~ ,· .~ ... ~-·-: ·:- ... !>..:.....,, .~· ........ ~~ ..::..· .. ?.·~~-"!·-~ _:.,_-:-;..__, .. ~..,.,;.;•~·<- ·· · '· · .· .. ·:.· ·· ~f ·th~ bp~~~ · it:{o; h~~ had s·~f ff c.i ent·. ii~:ib_ i. iity i~- his-·su~por~. . . . · . . .... . of the petition to get his point across without having to get into the areas that he has now gotten into. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: To that point of order, Sir; I first of all submit that while the hen. gentleman did not mean to be offeusive to Your Honour he was very offensive to Your Honour by saying that I had, I think these are his exact words, "Sufficient flexibility." Sir, that is a matter for Your Honour to determine. Se~ondly, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to debate the make-work project, the lack of make-work projects, whatever the phrase is) but I am not allow~d to,but surely it is relevant to the material allegation of a petition of 600 people wno are out of work and looking for work to say that the government have not made an adequate ~esponse, Sir. I could draw it particularly to the Bay d'Espoir area. I know they have not made an adequate response to the Bay d'Espoir area. Mr. Speaker, I do not think I was tresDassing into the field of debate. If I was of course I aDologize and 4.{': •")1. ~u

March 31, 1977 Tape No. 1446 NM - 4 ~m.. ROBERTS: I shall endeavour to refrain from it. It is difficult, Sir, on a subject such as this but I can only say, Sir, to the gentleman from Green Bay (Mr. Pe.ckford) a rhetorieal question, Sir, Where is Mr. Leo Barry now that we really need him? MR. SP~R: On the poin~ of order; as in many cases like this, there is a borderline. The Chair has certainly a res~onsibility to - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ~ .. ~ &GEERTS: Order please! The Chair has a responsibility . \ ./.,:( -~ tl ~ ~~~ 1,:3.- ~ :. t /& , -.

March 31, 1977 Tape no. 144 7 Page 1- l-!S Mr. Speaker. to enforce the rules, the Chair has a responsibility to do so in a manner which is cognizant of han. members1 freedom of speech within the rules and also I would think of the expression of citizens as related in petitions, and to endeavour to meld these together. I think in the specific instances or sentences of specific criticism of a government programme in that in those remarks and in those sentences they were debate, and they were out of order. The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

And if I mav draw my remarks to a close, Sir. I support the petition. I think it goes to the heart important matter in this 'Province todav. I regret that we in the House have been given no government programme to deal with it. I regret that the people of the Province have been given no government programme, and I regret even more, Sir, the lack of concern. I said in speaking in support of an earlier petition, there was a question of sensitivity, and I believe it was. I submit, Sir, that-the government's attitude in this matter is one of insensitivity, and I think that, too, Sir, speaks for itself.

I support the petition. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear , hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Industrial and Rural Develoument. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I just got a word or ~o to say. I sort of welcame the opportunity to say something. The thing that bothers me, Mr. Speaker, is that this thing is being entered into in an almost informal debate, a matter which is of urgent importance. I feel just as strongly as the members -- in --the House who have spoken to date about the unemployment situation in this Province. I have been a spokesman about unemployment

March 31, 1977 Tape no. 144 7 Page 2 - ms Mr. Lundrigan. and the unemployment problems since I have been in politics, and years before. I believe, Mr. Speaker, this is getting at the heart of some of our problems, and it is the role of an Opposition to come forward and suggest to government that we have a problem, and to present their recommendations. This is the first time that the Leader of the Opposition has got beyond the coloured. television sets, and his scandals - MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I must ask the han. gentleman to respect the rule of material allegation as so ably expounded by the han. gentleman to his left a few minutes ago. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I commend Your Honour on being so perceptive about my remarks.

I am just trying -to su·ggest, Your Honourtthat the Leader of the Opposition, if he were taking •• , • • • .~~~ . · . ~ ··"'.·-• .'";,.. ... :z .:.:-• .-•.• ,..._: ~ .. ·.:.. ~··:;"" .,· ~~ - ··..: : ..... •. ~ •. \· •. _.. .. ·. '-.··ir:---.:-. ··· :·- :• ,• . ... _ .. , : ":' ·-~ .. . ; ·.· .. · ..... ~ . · .. -..... · .• -~ - · · ~ ·"" .· ':.~,· J ;.; , ;. .,.·, , ~ "" -: • • the proper inftiatives as the Leader · of the Opposition,should · · be using all means of debate at his disposal, including Interim Supply and the Throne Speech, to present to the House some of his recommendations about the problems confronting this particular Province.

MR. ROBERTS : To a point of order. MR.· SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order. MR.. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, I would love nothing better than to enter into debate with the gentleman from Grand Falls if only we could entice him into a debate on the merits of some point, Sir. I would submit that it is not in order iu speaking on the material allegations of a petition to read what the han. gentleman doubtless believes to be a lecture on the duties of the Opposition, Sir. He was in Opposition himself for awhile, and his conduct there speaks for itself. It led to his defeat at the polls in short order.

But, Sir, it is surely not in order in a discussion on a petition. If it is in order» if Your Honour so finds, then I would like nothing better, Sir» than to enter into the debate, because I think, Sir, that we on this side have

~rch 31, 1977 Tape no. 1447 Page 3 - ms Mr. Roberts. verv strong views about the role of Opposition just as we do about the role of government and the hon. gentleman's failure there, too, Sir. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, on ;Eat · point of order. Your Honour~the Leader of the Opposition has just spent ten minutes wrangling on about the particular petition, and he has been challenged on several occasions about the relevancy to the particular petition.

And he defended on a number of points of order and threw his little slurs across the way, and I suggest, Your Honour, that the interjection by the Leader of the Opposition that I was petulant and childish has no relevancy to the point of order. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! 0 ,.;.,.':,.-. !,.• ~ ... , 0 •,~ •_>.·-, .,.~A.~•:,•, ; -; .,·.~,'to ' "; •.:,....,:., .'·Ihe..: ,spect:e'ic;po-ittt• <r£' o~er·• a~ ': !- · teeall~ i:C":•'•, • ',•j"-'.~ ... . ... •• ' :-:·'· ':'" .·~ ; •..:- ,•:••"'·~'·'_. ." was to the effect that the hon. gentleman was speaking on the role of Opposition rather than on the material allegation of the petition, and he must confine his remarks to the material allegation of the petition as that has been interpreted in our· practice and in the precedent which allows certain points for comparison and illustration.

So I would just point that to his attention and ask him to govern his remarks accordingly. The hon. minister. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, the point · I am making is that I welcome the opportunity as being presented by the petition from the member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) to pass a few remarks about the state of the economy and particularly the unemployment in his region.

I would have expected the bon. member, if he were diligent and concerned and really genuine about the conditions of unemployment in his region, to have taken the opportunity to present to me or to any member of the government, to any minister where there might be a relevancy, the suggestion that weee forthcoming from the particular - MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER.: A point of order, ~~. Speaker. A point of order. 4i..35

March 31, 19 77 Tap.e no. 144 7 Page 4 - ms MR.. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, I wanted in this House earlier this afternoon as the record will show to take another three or five ~inutes. The minister is one of the people who woulq not let me .... :}'; .... . f"'> ~'-c.J'O

.. March 31, 1977, Tape 1448, Page l -- apb MR.. SIMMONS : pass on those suggestions would not allow me leave. Mr. Speaker, if the minister wants to debate that idea -- - I wlll do it at any time.. _I will say to him, he has all the suggestions that came up the other night in the report of the Research and Productivity Council which bas been sitting in his department since January 1974. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! _§OME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! Hear, bear ! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I cannot see that there. is a valid point of order there.

I will now draw to hen. member's attention that the rules on the petitions are quite precise.

In this Legislature I have always personally regarded it as one of the important fundamental rights of citizens and the duty of members when -··-~~ - ~-!-'~· ..... : '· :~speakin&-~ ~re.trrte...,\,eari-,~lia-1;:: ~:f.::::: m.tnd:~:-:!.- ·If · ~Jid..,. when.:-.the_· ·' procedure! : ·?>;,_~· ":' ,, "'- ·.-.:.r~-·- .-.:., ,: -:~.,~ · . . . . . . . . becomes so entangled, and with numerous interferences and objections and points, -~d.- the House is then led into debate, is , in fat:t, in a situation of debate where that is not permitted, aud if .bon. members. when this is drawn to their attention will not at the Chair's order so regulate their remarks as to bring them- selves within the rules, then I think I have no choice than to call the next routine order of bu:siness. / '/.,.(/ C I It is not something which I would~sh to do, but it something which I think that I would have little choice but to do, if the rules which are relevant, and the courtesies which have traditionally been extended are no longer observed.

SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPUKER: The hen. the Minister of Rural and Industrial Development. MR. LUNDRIGAI.~ : Mr. Speaker, I was referring to the hen. gentleman's lack of eagerness to present to us before he got up on his petition, his suggestions that be had. I was not aware until I came into the House today that he was presenting his petition so I could very properly analyze the recommenda~ions and suggestions

March 31, 1977. Tape 1448 RH - 2 2-!R. LUNDRIGA.J.~: to give a ligitimate response. But I want to take issue with a couple of points that were made, Your Honour. Number one is the - MR. SllOONS: To a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I do not want to interject. I want to listen to the minister, what he has to say on the petition. And I believe it i,s an important issue. I think it is unfair and also quite irrelevant that the minister should be pursuing the subject of my diligence .- or lack of it. I have no objection, Mr. Speaker, in giving him a copy of the report i£ he cannot find it.

It has been in his department for three years. But I do have a copy I can give to him. And it contains the suggestions he wants. Thera is no precede~t in this House, Mr. Speaker, for a member having to discuss the subject of a petition with members of the House before he brings it into the House.

And I have done today . . . . • . • . •, •• •. . • • ... • •. .. •• ••• ' . . •• ·• • . .... • ~ • ~ ...... • •• • . -; ~. .. · ~· .... , :- . • : . ,. _""'4. ;- ........ - •••• • · ~ i- _");'.:"""'.;.',;. . ....,;..;~ ... ~ .. ,. ~ :·~ <·· · ~· -: -. -: ·= ·wfiiif ~ ot:fii'"r'o· m-eit~'r~F&ave-·~b"n~"'"civer~~th~·i·~a:rs~ ·i'n' ·eh'is -'aciu~- ~~~- · I · ~v.; ....... · ····· · ..... "= .. - · · c~e in and presented my petition in the proper order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! Order, please! There is no point of order. The hon. gentleman was entering into a debate • .

It is a difference of opinion on this matter. But I am not aware that there is a specific point of order which the Chair can rule on. The hon. minister. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, two or three comments. First of all, I would like to disassociate myself from the gloom and doom and the hopelessness kind of syndrome which se~~ ~o manifest itself in the comments which were made about the petition. And I believe myself that comments which are made such as the member for Conception Bay South(Mr.

Nolan) made about the hopelessness and the gloom and doom is one of the causes of some of the economic problems we have in this Province. Number two, I take issue with the comment 4iJ38

March 31, 1977. Tape 1448 RH - 3 MR. LUNDRIGAI.'l: that is being made that there is no relevancy between the economic position of our Province today and the national scene. The member for Carbonear(Mr. R. Moores), a young member who is aspiring to be a great parliamentarian - I encourage him along these lines - certainly has to be aware of the fact that a significant proportion of the ~couomic problems we suffer in our Province toda~ and in any other area of the Province that has regional disparities is a result of the fact that we have a relatively unhealthy economy across this whole country.

If members take the time to read, and I ~ sure the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir(Mr. Simmons) - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order,please~ I do believe now the hon. gentleman is entering quite specifically into au-area of debate. And I ask him to keep his remarks within that definition · :··'-~1 ,,,:.·.-. · :~ot:tiiateri'a! .. ·~Iris~ti~~: : wi\:tc:fi~··tiai"'se'eii'''uricf · fif ··tne· .. Holis-e.r- ~·. ,_-.. ;,r.;:~ ... ~.,_.-: ·· ··"' --:~· •-\ ·.:,s • ··.~-~· ~'".-:·: · · MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr.

Speaker, in view of Your Honour's insistence about the relevancy of debate,and looking at what happened a minute ago I see no purpose in trying to pursue any further remarks on the petition. I regret that because I feel -that I am- MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Order, please!

On behalf of the House I shall have to use any arguments put forward by hon. members and my own knowledge of the rules and my own judgment in my application and enforcement of the rules and on behalf of the Rouse I will have to and do ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw his latter remarks in that in my opinion they were a reflection upon the authority of the Chair which is the authority of the House. And it is in that it is the authority of the House that I ask him to withdraw those remarks. - - - ·- ·· - · ·-

March 31, 1977 Tape 1449 PK- 1 MR.. LUNDRIG~~: Mr. Speaker, I guess the proper procedure - and this is the first time I have done this since standing in the House-is to withdraw, I suppose, the ~levant comments - that is without qualification-and I have to do that. But, Your Honour, again I am not al~owed to pursue it, but I find some restrictions on me as a member of the House, Your Honour has referred - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh ~ MR. LUNDRIGAN: ····-His-Honour is not interferring - Your Honour has referred to the freedom of speech.

I am trying to place in a broad context tha remarks of bon. members across the House, and I find that the rules do not permit me to do so. That was the reason for my remarks. It is not a reflection on Your Honour. I listened to remarks about my_ l'oli;ical future, ___ my~~olfdcal __ _ !_ • riJ- - ----- -- • past, and all kinds of petty remarks.

I am trying to be responsible -- -~~~1·~ - ~ :'""· :an.a·~ .. ·?rac:·~~·t:f1~!- ~·{!fitibti :~~~t:i\~· =-i~:r~~- .;rn·;--a-- bl:ri·~t :c6irt·i~t:'<_._io~;·li~~a~'r~·- • ;-· ...... ,~ _:;: ;~,. - "~~ ~ ; .. · 3ays that -- is no-t-pernl:i.ssibi.e; and if -that is not permiss-ible then I discontinue· -- . . .. -- - -- ---- - ·-· -- - . -·- . . - . -- -- ... - . ·- . . . ~_remarks, an-d_ .that - w~~- ~- ~lle reasan for my reflection if Your Honour so interprets it,on the Chair. MR. NEARY: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege. MR.NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would submit to Your Honour that the hon.member from Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) has not withdrawn, and Hansard can show this, Sir, h as _n.ot with~rawn his remarks. He merely got u-p and gave an excuse for disobeying the Chair. And I would sub~t to Your Honour that --now that Your Honour has made a ruling that Your Honour insist that the member from Grand Falls withdraw his remarks with no strings attached. MR. SPEAKER: The point of privilege brought up by the hon. member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is, in my o-pinion, a valid one.

I do not have the exact transcript, nor did I write down what the hon. member said, nor do we have the parliamentary secretaries here, and

March 31, 1977 Tape 1449 PK - 2 Mr. Speaker: it is not my •Nish to,uniess necessary,to adjourn the House. I did, however, understand his remarks and I can well understand .... I can understand, I cannot condone-but I can understand when an hon. member is cut off that he can react in that matter and may think he has been treated unfairly, and obviously that is every hon. member's right to think what he wishes. But the only things obviously that I can take note of, and I am entitled to~is what is specifically said.

And,in my opinion, the hon. gentleman's remarks were of such a nature which would undermine the authority of the House, and I would ask him therefore to unequivocally withdraw them and the matter can then be terminated and we can continue to whatever comes next. The han. Minister of Industrial and Rural Developme~t. MR. LUNDRIGAl.'l: That was my

interpretation of what I had done. whatever that means. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, · hear ! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! It certainly - SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair is no~ - it is not my wish,and it is not my intention,and indeed it is not my right to enter into debate with the hon. gentleman. I do not do so,yet I do not either leave when i~ is?~ my opinion, the authority of the House has been challenged, then I cannot allow that to go.

And it is not my desire to protract this matter whatsoever, but I do require now from the han. gentleman,and this is the last time I will require it and if he does not do it now I will have no choice but to do what the Standing Orders request me to do,and that is to withdraw -unequivocally without further comment. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, that was precisely, and I apologize to Your Honour for maybe - AN HON. MEMBER.: Without comment. MR. SPEAKER: Order!

March 31, 1977 Tape 1449 PK - 3 MR. LUNDlliGAl.~: Mr. Speaker ., the least I can do is have the courtesy of speaking in silence on a matter which is relatively important. Your Honour has suggested that I challenge the authority of the Chair, Perhaps my tone has not communicated my ------- - - - - apo1ogizies to Your Honour. I suggested in my previous remarks, Your Honour, that I withdraw precisely along the lines that ¥our Honour has suggested. And that is exactly what I d~~ Your Hon~ur. MR.. SPEAKER: The matter is disposed of.

I note and the House notes the hon. gentleman's withdrawal and that in fact does terminate the matter. The hon. member from LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I stand and support the petition presented by the member from Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir, Sir. My understanding of the petition, Sir, and the way that the member presented the ,.,.,: - :- ~· ,--·--:-~·: ·· :::a;eeiF!6~~-'ili:i"t .. i:li·e:.·i'c:;~~~n:t:~;_ .iii ;t~~: 'B'a~ -.. ·ci';'E#b'?~ .. :~f.e~· .. :;;is~· i;ur~l-y-.:~~~ ·,-~ ·. ~ .. ~ . ::: , .-. ~. ,~! · ":; -.-~ ""': ....... : !_::..;.:. spontaneous·moyement. -And it should be a warning, Mr.

Speaker, it should be a warning to the administration that not only are the unemployed in the Bay d 'Espoir area ge· tt~ng _:restless, ~~t the_ un~ployed throughout the whole · Provin .ce are getting restless, and they - --- ----- - -- · -· - -- ---- _____ , _____ - .. want action, they want action --- -- ----- 4042

March 31,1977 Tape 1450 .:'11-1 MR. ~ARY: from their government, Sir. ~fr. Speaker, five hundred and fifty men, lvomen and children attended a meeting in Bay D'Espoir in the parish hall- In St. Albans lvas it? MR. SL'1MONS: !n the parish center. MR. NEARY: In the parish center.

And they came there for one reason, Sir, and one reason onlyJ and that is to communicate to this Rouse and to the administration that these people did not ~i'ant to accept unemployment insurance benefits. theydo not want to be forced to go on welfare, they want to work. these people are eager and willing and able to 'NOrk, and they want jobs • . Now, Mr. Speaker, we have been here in this hon. House, what since February is it? February 2nd I believe ·;•u-:-~;;.,.:. ·· --:,:!;.:.· . '::it.:.-='·:-~ .... ,; ,Wf!_. ¥VE!.:.Qe.~4l~a:.-.J:l.l?.~: '.c¥nw;s,~·: 7 ~,, .. ~e..J+.;, o.ve:r ..

J:.w~ .. ·.JI~On.~~ -~.; \ .';!,-- :··~ .:~:.. -•• ,·-~-~.:.<~.:;~:·;.4;:~:-:: and we have not yet, Mr. Speaker, seen one sign of a plan produced by this administration to provide long-term employment for our people. We have massive unemployment in Newfoundland at the present time. I would think in the Bay D'Espoir area, from the figures that have been given by the member, that unemployment in that area is somewhere up around seventy per cent, a mimimum of seventy per cent. In some communities in Newfoundland it is ninety per cent unemployment. And, Mr.

Speaker, the figures that are given out by Canada Manpower - not by Canada Manpower but by Statistics Canada, I do not know how they are arriving at their figures, how they are manufacturing the figures, but I would think in this Province at the present time, Sir, that we have about 64,000 Newfoundlanders registered with Canada Manpower who are unemployed ; massive unemplovment. Mr. Speaker, is it any wonder that the people in the Bay D'Espoir area are becoming cynical, disillusione~ disgrUntled, discouraged and disappointed ~vith the administration? M~.

Speaker, I think it is shameful the way - the reception 4i:43

Harch 31,19 77 Tape 1450 AH-2 ~. ~TEARY: that this petition has gotten from the ministry. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must ask the han. gentleman to avoid debate and to confine his remarks to the petition allegations. Hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: So,Mr. Speaker, i have no hesitation at all in supporting the prayer of this petition, Sir. It is a good petition. It is a sign, and should be a warning to the administration, Sir, that the unemployed in this Province are getting restless and we are going to see more of this in the future.

And our people want to work, they want jobs, not unemployment insurance or ~.:elfare. I believe that the administration would be well advised, Sir, to take note that this may he only one of many petitions that we will see presented in this hon. Rouse on this very serious And before .I take my se~t, Sir, I want to congratulate all those on this side of the House who have p.articipated in supporting the prayer of this petition.

It has been an excellent exercise~ Sir, one of the best things that I have seen happen in this session of the House to date, to ' - drive home, to rivet home,the problem of high record of unemnloyment in this Province. And I also want to congratulate , Your Honour, for the way that,Your Honour, handled a very delicate situation because when you are talking about unemployment . ~ ~ir, it . is bound to get a little bit heated once in awhile and I must say that ~our Honour has done a fine job throughout this whole discussion. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER-: Ron. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR.

FLIGR'l': Mr. Speaker, I want to add my voice to the support that has already been given to this petition. 4f44

March 31,1977 Tape 1450 AR-3 MR. FLIGRT: I cannot think, Mr. Speaker, of a more important petition that has been presented to this House, I cannot think of anything that would warrant debate anymore than the unemployment situation in this Province does today. Unemployment Mr. Speaker, the level of unemployment in the distriets referred to in this Province is, ~r. Speaker, destroying the self-respect of Newfoundlanders. That petition was presented out of resignation and ~esperation and that , desperation is going to manifest itself all over this Province. ~fr.

Speaker, I do not see how I could stand here and be relevant to supporting a petition if I we~e permitted to look at why the high level of unemployment is in this I witness in this Province over and above civil service, over and above the paper companies and the fishery is the make-work programmes by LIP ·and now Young ~-anada Works; and Canada Works ·- .·- . 4f45

March 31, 1977 Tape 1451 JM - 1 MR. FLIGHT: very disappointed and !. expected, Mr. Speaker, when the Minister of Rural Development stood that in supporting the petition he would point out the jobs created by his department over this past three or four years. MR. LUNDRIGAN: There is a job wait~ng for you. MR. FLIGHT: I think he should have. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, the reason the people in Bay d'Espoir - five hundred people attended a meeting, _ and says we do not have work - is because the job creation programmes of this Province have not worked : ..

Rural Development is not creating the jobs that they were intended to create. If they had we would not have had those kind of meetings because Bay d'Espoir is an area that would have been dependent on the natural resource development of Mr. Speaker, in the fifties and sixties when there wa~ a very low unemployment situation in this Province, a great deal of our people were working for companies and they did net realize they were paid out of the public purse. They did net realize that they were working for the Government of Newfoundland but they were.

The 3,000 or 4,000 employees that the Lundrigans had and the Goodyears had and all the construction people building roads and bridges and schools and electrification programmes were, in fact, being paid for by the Newfoundland Government. And this administration must have realized, any government must have realized that when they cut back on the essential services of this Province, when they cut back on public works they would create massive unemployment and that is basically our problem, Mr. Speaker. The fiscal policy of this Province is not in keeping with creating jobs for our people in this Province. ~!R.

ROBERTS: Hear, hear! Well said. MR. FLIGR'I: When this House of Assembly and this administration - 4C4S

March 31, 1977 Tape 1451 JM- 2 }!R. FLIGHT : decided to go with the price and wage controls situation then they accepted the price and the price would have been to cut back on public works and on cutting back on public works they knew full-well they would be cutting back on the employment level of this Province. When we committed $250 million to get into BRINCO, to buy out BRINCO, Mr. Speaker, - 'MR.. SPEAKER: A point of order pleaseJ A point of order please! I do believe the hon. gentleman now is stretching beyond reason the concept of material allegation. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, and I will abide by any suggestions or rules that you would lay down, Sir.

I am just simply suggesting that i~ terms of employment, Sir, if the funds that have .been.. alioca~ed thls. p as ~ few . year.s through· _various . . . . : • • ·~·· . :"· , · ~ : • ..... ::" 1 ~ ··.: ·~ .:..~ ... · ~ ·• ..... .;...: ~;: ...... ..., -1 .. ~ ~-=- .· .. 5. ? .... :·· ~::- •· --~ - ~- ~.. ·:· ~- : ..... : .. :...~. •: 1 _ ~ ' •• -.. -: ·• • ... ·::·- · ·-~·-~-~...;... ~.~:-. ~··,; .. ~~ ::=. ' ~ .. ~ . · ~~ -.... ... ~~~-·: r.. ~-:·~ -;: ... ··:: ..... ~. ~--~~ f !::: :. projects had instead been allocated to creating employment in this P~ovince then the result of that employment might have put us in a position to spend the money when we were ready,to spend it in the way it woulcL h.a.ve best suited Newfoundland.

We could have put the -_g7-ganti<_ ~ainounts of money that this . administration have put into - when we were ready, when we had indeed created the kind of jobs and developed our basic and natu~al and local resources. Mr. Speaker, I support the petition and I submit to government that if they are to deal with the massive unemployment we have then they are going to have to change their tactics and their emphasis is goin~ to have to be on putting their money into resource development and they are not doing it, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: Not just talk but the money. MR. FLIGR'!: Not just talk, the money, Mr. Speaker.

MR.. ROBERTS : Bear, hear! Bear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: I support the petition, Mr. Speaker. 4C47

March 31, 1977 Tape 1451 JM - 3 MR.. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Stephenville. MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition of my hen. colleague, the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. Mr. Speaker, the moral fiber of our Newfoundland people is being strained so much that they are now starting to tear away at the seams. The people in Newfoundland do not want to be reduced to social welfare or UIC. They want work. Sometime ago the Premier mentioned that the blueberry industry would be stimulated to provide employment to many people who are out of work. Mr.

Speaker, if the unemployment rates keep increasing as they are there will be a one to one ratio, one blueberry for every one person unemployed. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Speaker, I .do not believe t.hat the government ~\<'",!.~ • .!.:..· : :~ .. ·=· - '-\:"a.. . : .. • .... ~ • .:..,.~ .. '";..:.- ... ·_ ·=:- ;J .... ~:·-~ .... ~-- - ~_ ..... _~ .. ·._· --:: ._..;~ •. : ,_~ -:.-~) .... .. :--.. .. ~"-•.- .. ~':" \;~ .. !· ·~ .. - -. ·r.

".~- ~ .. -.:~ .... - ,..:·:/ .• ~ .... ~ .· - ~ ~··..: :· - ~_ -..,_ ·-··, .. : .. ,.;· . ~:.! - "·'"--7' . ::. - ~ -:.~ ....... --=·-~ -•.. ~ has done enough to curb this high rate of inflation and I would • I suggest that the government take a much more serious approach to this whole unemployment situation. I support the petition presented by my hon. colieague, the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Baie Verte- White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I too rise to add a few words of support to the petition presented by my colleague from Burgee­ Bay d'Espoir~believing as I do, Sir, that that is probably the most important petition presented to this House of Assembly this session. All the speeches, all the remarks that have been made by people on this side of the House and indeed, Sir, the Prayer of the Petition itself,! believe,should -- ----- -------· --

~"arch 31, 1977 Tape 1L..52 LB-1· YR.P.IDEOt"'': S"-1f;eest to each of us here that there certainly is a cancer eating away at the fibre of life as we know it in this province. !-1R. Lt"m)RIGA."t: Yes, you see it right now. ~-. P.IDEODT: It is exemplified by the Minister of Industrial And P.ural Development. It is exemplified by the mir!ister, Sir, because it is the minister's department that should take the lead in this. ~. SPl<' P..KEJ'.: Ord~r please!

The hon. gentleman is quite definitely . - in the area of debate,_ The material alle~ation of the ~etitiop in case hon. members have forgotten is ·- I will have to cot'!plete - is the relief' of a high instance of unemployrrent in the Bay D"Espoir area and certainly references to unemployment in other areas, logically related to things~ . or ."in ~omparis~n are-oerm~: tted. But I • J think the hon. gentleman was in debate with the hon. minister. ~--.:.~··"--· . .:· ... :~·· ~ - - ..... -~ . : :u,.· .. --::·. •;; : 4.~ _. .. ·~'$:::~.) · ~~·=:· ............ .;:·:·-.<=· ~!~ : :) ....

"'! ·: :;.-..-.<"~::·r .• ~·· -;'. : .. ~ . "".· · · ~: ..... - _ .• :·~ ;:: · · · : .o:·; · ~··: -'9~ ··-a·.,.;,..:: •. ··;<·--.._;·:•:.; .. ;.:-:-·:,"':·::r~ ........ : .. · .. ~.:~>~, ~.P.I'DEOTi'I' . : I thank you, 'very much,~r. Speaker," but it is so easy to ~all by the way When :J!'.e looks at the minister f!:"m Grand Falls. Of course it is better to look than be looking .a~ che Premier's seat,which is vacant. ( I just want to say,Sir, !-supported the prayer of the petition and we have been called in this province to be more productive but,Sir, we cannot be productive unless we have jobs.

People all over this province .look at the District of Baie 'tTerte - 1-Thite Bay as being economically well off. But, Sir, we have our pockets of unemployment too just as they have them up in the district represented by· • .,- f~i~nd_ -,in Burgee ~ · "'Bay n'Espcir. Only for LIP, Sir, I do believe tha