May 1, 2002 SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Wally Anderson, MHA for Torngat Mountains,

substitutes for Bob Mercer, MHA for Humber East.

The Committee met at 5:15 p.m. in the House of Assembly.

MADAM CHAIR (Ms. Yvonne Jones): Good morning, everyone.

If you are ready, we will get started. Welcome to the Social Services

Committee. This evening we will be doing the second session of the Estimates for

the Department of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education. I would like to

start off this evening by asking the committee members to introduce themselves

by name and district. I will start with the Member for Port de Grave, please.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, MHA for Port de Grave.

MR. ANDERSEN: Wally Anderson, MHA for Torngat Mountains replacing Robert

Mercer.

MS M. HODDER: Mary Hodder, MHA, Burin-Placentia West.

MR. MANNING: Fabian Manning, MHA for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. HEDDERSON: Tom Hedderson, MHA for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you.

I would now like to ask the minister to introduce herself and her officials.

MS KELLY: Sandra Kelly, Minister of Youth Services and Post-Secondary

Education and Minister Responsible for the Status of Women. My Deputy Minister,

Bruce Hollett; ADM, Carol Ruby; our new ADM, Rochelle Cochrane; and our Director

of Financial Services, Jack Thompson.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

A couple of things before we get started. First of all, just to let you know

that the switching for the microphones is done in the basement of the building

and the person down there, who has been putting in a lot of hours in the last

two weeks in conducting the Estimates in the business of the House, has cameras

and he is using those cameras to identify where we are seated. Just ensure that

your microphone is on before your speak and please identify yourself before you

speak.

Minister, I would ask that if you refer questions to your officials, could

you identify who the official is so that I may ask them to speak to ensure that

the microphone is on. It makes it a little easier for the people who are trying

to conduct the business of the House downstairs.

Also the process for this session: We will start with the minister, if she

has any opening comments. Although she has already made opening comments at the

beginning of the first meeting in which we deliberated for some three hours on

the Estimates of her department, if she wishes to have some opening comments

again this evening, she may. If not, we will go to questions.

Each committee member will have twenty minutes at a time to ask questions

until such time as there are no other questions, at which time we will call the

heads.

Just to seek clarification from the Clerk: Do we have to re-call the first

subhead or will we continue on?

CLERK (Elizabeth Murphy): Might as well call it again.

MADAM CHAIR: I will now ask the Clerk to call the first subhead, please.

CLERK: 1.1.01

MADAM CHAIR: Unless there is some objection from the committee we will

continue all debate under 1.1.01. Is there any objection?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MADAM CHAIR: Okay. Well then we will proceed, Minister, if you are ready.

MS KELLY: There is no real need for opening comments. I made them as we

were introduced at the last estimates committee and we are all ready for

questions.

MADAM CHAIR: I would first like to call the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you, Madam Chair.

I just have, basically, six or seven points. Can I just go through those or

do I have to stick to a particular head?

MADAM CHAIR: Any points that you wish to raise can be raised under the

subhead that has been called.

MR. HEDDERSON: If you would, subhead 3.1.02, Native Peoples' Teacher

Education. Minister, just looking at the situation with regard to teacher supply

and demand in Newfoundland and Labrador: Obviously here has been great success

here because the same amounts have been dedicated and there is even an increase

this year. I do not know the reason for the increase but it is good to see. Just

looking overall, Minister, at the success of this program, how successful with

regards to numbers and so on that we have been.

MS KELLY: From a detailed perspective, yes, I agree with you. The program

has been very successful, but now as we move forward with new initiatives,

especially at the College of the North Atlantic, we are seeing, which is very

positive thing, some increased demand, that many of our Aboriginal students are

recognizing that they need upgrading before they continue with post-secondary

education. That, of course, is the challenge right now that we are working on.

Other than that I would say the program is very successful and we are looking

forward to Labrador economic projects proceeding so that there will be increased

work and, of course, increased need for training for our native people.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under this program, are there any numbers, Minister, that

you would have as to - I see it as a teacher education program. Is that to

encourage people to enter into a teacher education or what is the nature of the

program exactly?

MS KELLY: My understanding is that the program is also to enable extra

education for Aboriginal students before they enter post-secondary.

I could ask my Deputy Minister if he could comment further.

MR. HOLLETT: This is money that comes directly from the Government of

Canada to send people from Labrador to the university to do teacher training

essentially, so it is fully recoverable from the federal government. That is

what it is for.

MR. HEDDERSON: Bruce, any numbers? How successful have we been? I know

teacher education would be four years, maybe six years, for that matter. How

successful has the recruitment been, I suppose, in recruiting people into this

program?

MR. HOLLETT: We have had very little direct involvement with the program,

but it is my understanding that (inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay. That should have been my first question. I am sorry.

So, this is administered through the feds?

MR. HOLLETT: Yes, it is.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay.

I just saw it under this and I thought that you may be the lead on it for

sure.

Looking at the Operations of Memorial, 3.2.01.

MS KELLY: 3.2.01?

MR. HEDDERSON: 3.2.01. As a matter of fact, I think I went on the website

of MUN - again, correct me if I am wrong - but when I looked at the revenue

coming it, it was something like 68 per cent government, 28 per cent student

fees as part of the revenue base. In the year 2000 they had a budget of

something like $140,000 - I am sorry, there was $140,000 allocated from the

provincial government, $140,000 and change, as a matter of fact, and something

like $50 million and change with regard to student fees. Now, there was $10

million put in last year, I understand which would have boosted up government's

contribution to $150 million plus whatever, .038. The student fees went down to

$49,954,000. So $10 million was put in and there was really just a decrease of

about $400,000 in student fees. I would have expected a bigger decrease in the

fees because, you know, government was putting in $10 million so obviously that

was going directly for it.

I am not sure if you have a breakdown or anything. What I am asking is: Are

we getting a good bang for our buck? We are giving $10 million and there is only

$400,000 less in students fees. What is your take on that, Minister?

MS KELLY: Well, really, you need to have a great deal more detail to be

able to analyze that because it depends on the numbers of students then. Are you

comparing? You know, was there an equitable number of students you are comparing

there?

Also, some of the funding for Memorial University is done through the

Department of Health and Community Services. So you would have to take that into

account also, that the millions of dollars that go into the Medical School are

done through that department.

MR. HEDDERSON: This year, of course, we are dedicating additional funds,

basically. There are some questions. I have been asked about it, as I am sure

you have. Just for clarification purposes: What stage is it at now? Originally

we looked at it as going towards tuition and then there was some question as to

whether it would go towards the tuition. Where is it at now and has there been

any commitment given to you regarding that?

MS KELLY: We are about to meet, actually, with Memorial and the student

body representative and my department. I have verbally being speaking with MUNSU

and they seem to be indicating they are going to recommend that the funds be

used for a tuition reduction.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay.

Again, Minister, you will be part of that decision. You know what I am saying

to you. Will it be just that Board of Regents or whatever making that decision?

I know you and the students have input into it, but the decision will be made as

a joint decision through all parties. Is that the way it is going to go?

MS KELLY: That is correct. As we announced it, we said that we would

convene a Round Table to discuss how the $3.5 million would be spent by

Memorial. If the decision is made at the Round Table that it would be for a

tuition reduction, the money would be appropriated to the university providing

it was used for that.

MR. HEDDERSON: With the College of the North Atlantic and the operations

of the College: I am sure we must be close to that head as well.

MS KELLY: 3.3.01?

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, yes.

Just basically, once again, I am going back over some of the releases that

you have done. One of the ones that you released was that - I think, when you

gave the funding last year, you were talking about in 1997-1998 there was $38

million allotted for their operating, boosted a couple of years later up to $52

million. This year it has dropped back to $48 million. There was an increase

from 1997 on up to 2000-2001. I stand to be corrected because, as I said, I am

just picking that out of one of your press releases or whatever. This year I am

looking at their Budget of $48 million. So, it is about $4 million in the

difference of last year. Is it peaked? Was it declining? As I said, it was an

upward trend from 1997 and it hit. Now, this year, we have dropped back $4

million. Is that the trend? Is there a reason: Less students? less programs?

What would be the reason?

MS KELLY: I think there could be a variety of reasons there. At the

college it could be student fluctuations. It could also be from the perspective

of the funding that is put in place with contract training through HRDC under

the LMDA agreement. So I think that is why you will see different numbers there.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MS KELLY: I think, also, when you look at for the past - is it five years

ago, now, or six, that the colleges were consolidated , the nineteen campuses

under one board. Obviously, there are efficiencies there that were expected when

we did this. We went from five regional colleges, really, that had eighteen

campuses, into one. I think that is in part there but I know that the student

operations, the amount that is put in, is very consistent. As a matter of fact,

that has gone up significantly.

The other reason, I am told, is the completion of the capital construction at

Prince Philip Drive. I think the last of that has just been completed, actually,

as we close out the Topsail Road Campus.

MR. HEDDERSON: Minister, what you are saying is, that was a capital boost

in the last couple of years or whatever but the programming and that sort of

thing, the funds dedicated to that, are the same or at least on the level of

what they have been for the last couple of years.

MS KELLY: Yes, based on the numbers of students, the amount that we are

putting in per student, it has been very consistent.

MR. HEDDERSON: Obviously you know my critic area, which includes

secondary education, but in the K-12 system, the 1990s saw a great

restructuring, as you are well aware, brought about largely because of the drop

in student population in the K-12. There has been a lot of emphasis placed on

the K-12 but there is a ripple effect of that as well and that carries over into

post-secondary. What I am looking at is, are there any trends following through

into the post-secondary? Because obviously we have a system now that is probably

geared up to so many students. Can we expect, in the next number of years, to

see what we have seen in the K-12 system, which has been restructuring, close

down of programs or schools, or consolidation or whatever? How are you looking

at this? Have you looked ahead? What is the situation? That is what I am asking.

MS KELLY: There are three things occurring here. One, we are very pleased

that an increased number of students and older adults, middle-aged adults, or

adults in their early thirties, are going to post-secondary. Our numbers have

dramatically increased there so, of course, especially at the college level we

have not had the decrease that you would expect to see.

We also, as an economic initiative in many parts of the Province, and I speak

specifically of the Corner Brook region, are targeting international students,

both our private colleges and our public college, that they want to bring in to

fill classroom space but also because it is so good for our economy and, of

course, it is happening in other provinces very successfully.

The expectation around restructuring, I don't think will occur from the

perspective of lower numbers because we anticipate, especially with the training

that could be anticipated with large projects if we continue our oil and gas

sector to grow the way it is, that students will go into the skilled trades

areas and you would expect to see either the same amount of infrastructure being

kept in place or actually new infrastructure going in place, as we are seeing

some of our private colleges are doing now in the skills area.

MR. HEDDERSON: The MUN Opportunity Fund has been financed - I guess the

government is matching funds - and I think up to last year you were up to

probably $21 million of, I think, maybe $29 million. Where does the government

stand? How much more is owing? How much of a commitment are we making this year?

Is this the last commitment?

MS KELLY: I believe the commitment this year is $3 million, if I remember

correctly, from this year's budget, so that would bring us up to $24 million.

There is $7 million left.

MR. HEDDERSON: There is $7 million left. That is what it is.

Again, going through your Web site, there was a Red Seal program that has

been mentioned. I think it is a national program. I am led to understand that it

is dealing with, I guess, interprovincial credentials and so forth. I am just

wondering at what stage - well, first of all, just a little indication of what

the program is and what commitment the government has made with regard to

funding or whatever.

MS KELLY: The Red Seal program, you were correct, is a national program

that we are proud to be a part of, and we continue to work with other

jurisdictions to make sure that trades are added to it as we can work through

the agreements between other provinces. It has been a very successful program

because, as our students go through and finish their apprenticeships and get

properly qualified, the Red Seal means that it is a sign that they can work both

in this Province and in other jurisdictions.

As you know, for many groups like iron workers and that, that is a very

important qualification, that you can go immediately from one Province to the

next. Many times, especially within unions and within companies, if there is a

slowdown in construction here, they will take you to Alberta or Ontario for even

a few weeks' work. We have had people go to New Brunswick just for a few weeks'

work, then come back here as the construction stages change and, of course, it

is very seasonal in different provinces so it is a good program that we think is

excellent and we support very strongly. It is not really a financial commitment

that is any significant amount of dollars. It is just a good program and our

department administers it along with the appropriate staff.

MR. HEDDERSON: Are we getting the co-operation, Minister, of all

provinces? Because some of my tradespeople in my constituency talk about, for

example, Quebec has some barriers to, you know, workers going in and that. Are

all provinces in on this program?

MS KELLY: I would have to check for you completely. I asked the same

question and my understanding is that they are all a part of the program but not

all of them have signed interprovincial arrangements in every one of the

apprentice trades. It just depends on which trade it is, but most of them now

are in the system and being worked through, so my anticipation is that even with

provinces like Quebec where, in particular in the construction trades, there

have been difficulties in the past, that we are moving forward, but we are not

all the ways there yet.

MR. HEDDERSON: That takes care of my questions, Minister. I thank you for

your responses.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Hedderson.

The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Madam Chair.

First of all, I would like to welcome the new ADM aboard.

Minister, not long ago you made some announcements that undergraduates who

want to switch their programs after completing three years of university must

first meet with a government counsellor, and the decision to maintain or deny a

student's financial aid would be linked to whether the program switch makes

financial sense. Would that be correct?

MS KELLY: Yes, but not from the perspective that recently has been talked

about in the media. The reason that this extra counselling and these extra staff

were put in was because many students now who have gone through university and

either not completed their programs on time - you know, they have only done

three courses a semester - or they have switched faculties on several occasions

or switched programs at CONA or private colleges, say afterwards: We wish we had

better help with making these decisions, that we just were not able to go in and

apply for a loan and get it without thinking about the ramifications.

It was really because students were saying to us, when they finished: I didn't

realize I would have all this debt. I didn't realize that the job I was

preparing to go in did not have good employment outcomes, or I did not realize

that the jobs that were available with this particular type of education didn't

pay well.

It was put in more to help students and at their request than anything else.

It is not government's wish to be saying to students, to direct them through

certain jobs or certain faculties. We just want to ensure that all the help that

they need, both from a career counselling and a financial counselling

perspective is there. That is why we intend to do a lot more work in our high

schools with our new student financial package, and also why we have plans now

to unroll in the upcoming years to ensure that our students get better work

experience in the summertime, on weekends, and after school. It is a big

priority of my department to help students make wise decisions.

MR. MANNING: I certainly welcome the news on counselling because I think

in last year's Estimates I relayed a story of a situation in my own district

where a young girl has $40,000 worth of debt after partaking in four different

courses and did not have one employable skill, basically because of lack of

counselling from the beginning.

I would just like to know, if I could: These counsellors that you are

planning to put in place, who will they be? How will they be trained? Is there

certain training they will receive? Are they already in the system and going to

be transferred to your department, or are they going to be new people brought

on? To whom will they be accountable? Are they going to answer to you or your

department? Just some information on the counsellors themselves.

MS KELLY: There will be new positions that were announced this year in

the budget. My assumption is that we are in the process now of preparing job

descriptions and starting to put ads in the paper to recruit them. They will be

working in our Student Financial Assistance Division and, of course, will be a

part of the Department of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education.

MR. MANNING: Maybe I missed it somewhere along the line. Have you

determined the amount of counsellors you are going to hire?

MS KELLY: Yes, there will be two, I believe, extra because we already

have some. We have rearranged that division also, so that people who most need

the counseling, it will be available to them. Along with the rearranging of

resources, we have added two new positions to it which we think should be

adequate.

MR. MANNING: Will the counsellors have a veto over whether a student

continues with student aid or not?

MS KELLY: I do not view it as a veto. Our anticipation is - and we have

not done this before - that it will be a joint decision that, as the student

comes in, in many instances I anticipate that it will be looked at and if the

student has realized the implications, the student will either say: Yes, I agree

with you, or the counsellor will be saying to the student: Yes, this is a wise

decision that you are about to make.

I think in dire circumstances where we would really have to worry about it,

we would have the veto power but I would be very surprised if ever we would need

to use it. The purpose of this is to help students be able to make wise

decisions for their futures, not to impede them. It could only be done, in other

words, with very good reason.

MR. MANNING: But there would be veto power at the level of the counsellor?

MS KELLY: As my deputy is pointing out to me here, there is an appeal

process that is in place and that will continue, of course, the same as it has

always been in that division.

MR. MANNING: Okay.

When they are setting the criteria for course programs, I guess it comes down

to finances because we find a lot of our students, the stress is brought on by

their financial situation that they find themselves in, but when they are

selecting or deciding on a course of programs based on the financial side of it,

will they look at employment statistics by degree program or income levels by

degree programs? How are they going to derive where the student goes from there?

MS KELLY: The way we would do it is: There is a lot of research done in

the department. We produce, actually, some of the best research in the country

that talks about - there was a study done, for instance, 1999s graduates are

polled twelve to eighteen months - eighteen months, I believe - after graduation

to look at: Did they get employment in the area that they did their education

in? What the employment level is like, what the pay level is like. We have some

very good statistics that we can share with students to show them these

statistics, so it would not be based on just finances. One of the very first

things that we would want to offer students and to talk to them about is: Have

you looked at what you want to do? There is nothing worse than spending the rest

of your life knowing you are going to get up in the morning to go to a job you

don't enjoy. I think that, first, you have to look at suitability. It would be

a program that you can work through to help students make the best and wisest

decisions.

MR. MANNING: You mentioned, in your answer to another question, going

into the high schools. I received some interest in that from students who are at

Level II and Level III, the Grade 11 and Grade 12 level now. Are the plans in

place for that yet? What exactly is the plan there? Sometimes they have career

days at our high schools but it is really not, you go around and there may be

fifteen or twenty different booths set up. They weren't around in my day, but

my feedback from the students is that just does not cut it. A student - I will

just use Mary - has a plan or an idea in her head. It is just not walking around

a gymnasium looking at booths. You need something more. Are there any plans on

how that is going to be done?

The Minister of Education mentioned to us last night there are several

hundred schools in the Province. While they may not all be of Level II or Level

III, heading off to post-secondary, there are a number of schools in the

Province. What are the plans of the department in ensuring that - When I go back

to a guidance counsellor in the school - I have a school in my district that

receives guidance counselling, I think, one morning a week or something along

that line. If you are dealing with even the twenty-five or twenty-six students

that are in the Level III class in that school, it is impossible to get the

guidance that they need especially for the counselling that is required. I find

with students, again- I just throw this one out and let you elaborate on it a

bit - I find that it has been in the past and hopefully it will be corrected

through the initiatives that your department has taken. I applaud those

initiatives, to be honest with you, in most regards. We find the people into a

level of university or College of the North Atlantic, or some private - a year

or year-and-a-half in, realizing that they are not capable of doing it, they

drop out and they go somewhere else. I guess this whole plan is to address that

concern in the long term. I am just trying to find out what, exactly, is the

plan at the high school level.

MS KELLY: Thank you very much for the question.

A multitude of ways, and actually it would take a long, long time to answer

them all but I will just give you some brief things we are working on. Of

course, through the Community Youth Networks, a lot of the focus there is on

career planning and they have set programs. We are now studying and putting

together proposals to pilot some apprenticeship programs especially in rural

areas. Our SWASP program, we want to do a lot more with and to make sure that

there is a better quality of work experience offered to students. We are doing a

significant amount of work both in the department and with the Community

Services Council there. There are, of course, courses in high schools that we

are evaluating with the Department of Education and also looking at what is

happening in specific schools, because many students do not view them as helpful

to them. How can we put in a program that in many ways should be a prerequisite

to graduation that every student should have gone through so many hours of

career planning, understanding the student aid system, that sort of thing, and

preparing for the transition from secondary to post-secondary.

We are talking with the Department of Education about that and, of course, we

are already, in this Province, doing some preparatory work in high schools

through credits that students can obtain before they go into their

post-secondary courses. We want to evaluate and expand on those and do further

work with the Department of Education. It is probably the biggest priority in my

department right now that we are working on, and you will continue to see new

programs coming forth, but my personal goal, as a minister, is to ensure that we

have a program in this Province for every student, and my hope is that we will

devise something like that in the upcoming year. We are certainly putting a lot

of effort into it in my department.

MR. MANNING: I find in some schools, especially in the rural parts of

Newfoundland - my colleague for Ferryland raised an issue the other day in the

House with regard to some of the teacher cuts, that there is a possibility - I

know when I went to school, and I graduated in 1980, there was only one science

offered in my school and that was biology. You either took that or you did not

take science. Over the years we got into chemistry and now there seems to be, in

some cases, because of the teacher cuts or whatever the case might be, some of

these may not be offered and some are being offered through Distance Education.

I have talked to principals in my district who believe that Distance

Education is for the very gifted children - I should not say children because

most of them are young adults - very gifted in most cases. From a prospect of a

person who wants to enter a certain program and they may not have - through your

counselling or whatever the case might be, how much of an impediment would that

be to receiving financial assistance if they wanted to follow it through? I am

just trying to get at the fact: Is it going to be based on the background,

whether they are totally prepared for what they are going to do? Some people get

set on a certain thing. I am just wondering about discouragement down through

the ranks. How would you address that? If I had a young girl who wanted to be a

nurse, I don't know if you need chemistry, but if she needed chemistry and it

wasn't available at her school, how do you plan on addressing that?

MS KELLY: Certainly, it should be first addressed at the high school

level. Right now in our Province, I must say that I am not hearing that nearly

as much as we used to hear it. As a matter of fact, I have not had a single

student talk to me about it, a post-secondary student, the lack of ability for

them to be prepared. But, of course, it really has nothing to do with financial

aid. If a student, for instance, had graduated from high school and was unable

to get the courses they needed to prepare to go into nursing, they would not be

admitted to the university under that faculty but arrangements certainly can be

made for upgrading whether you finished school years ago or just finished. I

think it is more the merging of the two systems. Really, a person would not be

denied student aid for that reason.

MR. MANNING: Okay. That is it for me, Minister.

Thank you very much.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Manning.

The hon. the Member for Burin-Placentia West.

MS M. HODDER: Thank you, Minister, for such an informative session. I

certainly welcome Michelle (inaudible), and I thank all of the staff for their

co-operation. (Inaudible).

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you, Ms Hodder.

The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

MR. ANDERSEN: Just briefly, I know that the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne

asked a question about the Aboriginal teachers. I guess, where the majority is

in my riding, it is starting to be very successful. I know that we have teachers

in every school now who teach the Inuktitut language and the Innu language,

basically the same as French immersion, because the Innu language, for starters,

can die out very rapidly, but that is on track now. The principal of the school

in Postville is an Aboriginal: Keith Jacque. We do have, I think, four or five

more full-time teachers who are from the Aboriginal community, so it is doing

quite well.

MADAM CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Andersen.

The hon. the Member for Harbour Main-Whitbourne.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, I am fine.

MADAM CHAIR: No further questions? Okay

Well, I would like to thank all the Committee members for their questions

this evening, and previous. I will now ask the Clerk to call the remaining

subheads.

CLERK: Subheads 1.1.01. to 3.6.01., inclusive.

On motion, subheads1.1.01. through 3.6.01. carried.

On motion, Department of Youth Services and Post-Secondary Education, total

heads, carried.

MADAM CHAIR: I would now like to ask for a motion to adopt the minutes of

the Social Services Committee of the Estimates of the Department of Education,

which was last evening.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

MADAM CHAIR: Minister, thank you and your officials for your time and for

coming back this evening. I know it is difficult to

schedule a lot of these

events. I certainly want to congratulate you, Michelle, and welcome you to your

new position. We look forward to working with you, Minister, and your officials

in the next year as we lay out another plan for your department.

Thank you very much.

MS KELLY: Thank you. We have enjoyed it.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.