:..r. Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 20, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 14

February 20, 1974 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Tape No. 333 PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Fogo. NM - 1 CAPT. E. WINSOR: I beg leave to present a petition from the people of Island Harbo.ur on Fogo Island. AN HON. MEMBER: Is that in Grand Falls? CAPT. WINSOR: No but I expect the member for Grand Falls to get up and support it. He has a very keen interest in this district.

The petition calls for the upgrading of a road between Island Harbour and other c0111111unities on Fogo Island and the prayer of the petition is that; ''We, the resident voters and taxpayers of Island Harbour do hereby affix our signature and petition the government of Newfoundland and Labrador to have the six miles of gravel road between Island and the main highway across Fogo Island, as well as the two miles of gravel road through the co11D11unity itself, upgraded or rebuilt to an acceptable standard by engineering principles." Mr.

Speaker, I support this petition and I think the Island Harbour people are justified in requesting that this road be upgraded· or reconstructed because orginally the road was built, it was built about sixteen years ago, and at that time of course when all road construction was taking place on the island, I would assume that it was built of a very low standard. So I would therefore, Mr. Speaker, place this petition on the table of the House and have it referred to the department to which it relates. AN HON. MEMBER: Make sure you have it signed now. CAPT. WINSOR: My petitions are alway signed. Do not worry. MR.

NEARY: We know the rules over here. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Grand Falls. MR. A. SENIOR: Mr. Speaker, I have 'much pleasure in supporting this petition from the residents of Island Harbour. Being somewhat familiar with the district and Fogo Island as well, I agree with !095 -1'.

February 20, 1974 Tape No. 333 NM - 2 the honourable member that the road is of very low standard and in certain sections, Sir, very dangerous and constructed at a time when many of the roads in the province were merely pushed through to provide cot11111unications to the other communities in the area. The road, Sir, must also be very importatant to the residents of this community as they have to travel from the Community of Island Harbour to probably Fogo or the larger communities to get their mail or much of their supplies.

So I take pleasure in supporting the petition, Sir, on b_ehalf of the people of Island Harbour, presented by the honourable the member for Fogo District. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Harbour Grace. MR. ll. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I beg permission in this honourable House to present a petition on behalf of some 33 residents of the Area of Bryants Cove known as The Point. These people want the road that is approximately seven-tenths of a mile that is now under the jurisdiction of the Local Roads Board to be transferred or taken over 1090

February 20, 1974 Tape 334 PK - 1 by the Department of Transportation and Communication. I support this petition, Sir, I think there are at least ten families there. The only access to that area now is by a very steep incline,hill known as Tim's Hill. I do not think, Sir, there will be any conflict of interest in this petition because there is also a cemetery on that road. I am sure probably the Ron. Member for Bell Island who knows the Harbour Grace District well will support this petition. I have much pleasure, Sir, on behalf of •these residents in tabling this petition. MR. S. A.

NEARY: I accepted the honourable member's invitation, Sir, to support the prayer of the petition. I think it is quite important to the honourable member, Sir, to get that road placed under the Department of Transportation and Communications because, Mr. Speaker, probably the most supporters that the member has in his district at the present time are living on that road. QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. the Member for St. Barbe North. l-1R. F. B. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Education.

I wonder if the minister has had an opportunity to supply the House with information and documentation showing that DREE schools are more costly to build and maintain than the schools built by the provincial government? Sir, the minister promised to get this information some time ago. }ffi. SPF.AKER: The Hon. the Minister of Education. HON. G. R. OTTENHEHIER (MINISTER OF EDUCATION): Mr. Speaker, as I recall in replying to the oral question a few days ago from the honourable member, I suggested at that time it would be something which is to be handled orally; it could be done in the estimates.

If the honourable gentleman should wish it before that time, then I think being a statistical and a mathematical matter it would be the kind of answer at least which \.•ould be a tabled written answer and that beinr; so, then I think the questjon would be the same. So verbally or orally, I ·would 1097

February 20, 1974 Tape 334 PK - 2 certainly be prepared to do it orally at the estimates but if the honourable gentleman should wish it before that, since the answer to that question is the kind which should really be written, it is a factual mathematical, statistical answer, then I think the question would be an Order Paper question. MR. ROWE, F. B. Hr. Speaker, does the Hon. the Minister of Education not think that in order to adequately debate the estimates that this infoTination should be supplied prior to and in writing, prior to the consideration of the estimates? MR. OTTENHEUffiR: Mr.

Speaker, just as two and two are four, a written question requires a written answer and a written answer requires a written que~tion. If specific question is on the Order Paper then I shall give a specific answer. I suggest that by its very nature requires a written documented answer. It is not a question of policy, it is a question of specifics statistical, mathemathical~ data. If that kind of answer is a written,tabled answer then the ques~ion should be the same. I suggest the honourable member,all he has to do is put a question on the Order Paper. MR. ROWE, F .B. Mr.

Speaker, can the Hon. the Minister of Education indicate to the House whether the government are . prepared to supply• emergency grants to the school boards in order to relieve 1098 '1'.

February 20, 1974. Tape 335 RH - l extreme current financial difficulties which amount approximately to $3.5 million. HON. G. OTTENHEIMER (Minister of Education): Mr. Speaker, the answer to that question is evident in Hansard because it has already been answered. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: What is it? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Consult Hansard. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, another question to the Minister of Education.

Is it the minister's intention to provide a great increase in operating grants to school boards for the year of 1974-75 in order to combat the great increase in salaries paid to school board employees, heat, electricity, interest payments, supplies and transportation. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman knows that the question is totally out of order because - I persume he knows. I give him the benefit of the doubt.

He should know, I persume he knows, that the question is out of order because it anticipates a specific budgetary allocation which neither I nor any minister is in a position to give before the estimates of expenditure for the next fiscal year are tabled in this House. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Hon. the Premier, I have to direct this question to the honourable Minister of Education.

Is it the minister's intention to call for an enquiry into reasons for the rapidly escalating cost of school construction and that government instituted study of allocation of funds to all branches of educational systems as requested by the Newfoundland Federation of Scho~l Boardsr MR. OTIENHF.IMER: Now, Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman, it is obvious, is going to various points made by the Newfoundland Federa­ tion of School Boards and basing his questions on them which is fair enough, Obviously he can use any material he wishes as a basis of questions. i099

February 20, 1974. Tape 335 RH - 2 Actually, thl' point made in the Federation of School Boards was a request for an enquiry into the excalating construction costs, a full stop. It was not for schools or for anything else. I mean, what effects the escalating construction costs of schools are the same factors of es­ calating construction costs in general. I would say that I think my answer to the honourable gentleman could be put a few ways.

Perhaps the best way of putting it is that while I now have a draft reply to the Federation of School Boards, I have not a signed reply mailed to them which will be going out from my office in the'next few days. I think that in courtesy to the people who sent the letter that ,.r/ • ,•_I. I obviously my reply should be to them before being made public.

The sub- _:! ' :.~ - , - L J. 1 () ) : { .... •. •- mission was from them to me and it is only fair that I sign a reply and ,, • allow two days for that reply to be received before answering it , When that time has elasped, I am certainly willing to read the reply to hon- ourable members here. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the honour~ble the House Leader on the Government side could indicate whether or not the Minister of Transportation and Communications will be in. the House during the question period? I have a number of urgent questions I wanted to ask the Minister.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: I have a number too. The same sort of thing. MR. ROWE: Well, there are a number of questions, Mr, Speaker, and if you will allow me to give some background to it. Since the Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications is not here at the present time, I would like to address a question to the honourable the Minister of Justice,in the absense of the Minister of Transportations and Communications and in the absense of the Premier, if I am allowed a little latitude. MR. SPEAKER: I will have to await the question as the honourable member is wandering too far astray. MR. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the great Northern 1100 / • :~•I ' l' ~' , •

February 20, 1974. Tape ' 335 RH - 3 Peninsula Highway, particularly in the area of St. Barbe North and I believe in White Bay North,has been blocked for a number of days and access to the St. Anthony Hospital was virtuously impossible and a number of school days have been lost and this is the time of year when this type of thing is going to continue to happen, I was wondering if the Minister of Justice could give the House some indications as to whether 1' or not additional snow-clearing equipment can be sent into both of these districts as they are very badly needed indeed? HON. T. A.

HICKMAN (Minister of Justice): Obviously, Mr. Speaker, _ .J • • I , , .,_C...(_ I"'( l i I \. ._ 1.- I cannot give a definitive answer at this time but I do undertake to inquire of the officials in the Department of Transportations and VV I . Communications as to what reports they have received, as I am sure h~nourable members from the North, Great Northern Peninsula have received on the transportation problems in that area. My_ understanding, from what the honourable member for St. Barbe North has said,is that the schools in St. Barbe North and in White Bay North are still closed_ 1101

February 20, 1974, Tape 336, Page 1 -- apb the schools are now open again but they were out, they were closed. ls the hospital as St. Anthony accessible now'? AN HON. MEMBER: It is accessible at this moment. MR. HICKMAN: I will ateempt to ascertain for honourable members from that area, both the honourable the Leader of the Opposition and the honourable the member for St. Barbe North, as to what representation has been made to the officials in the Department of Transportation and Communications and what remedial steps they feel are required. MR. SPEAKER: -The honourable the Leader of the Opposition: HON.

E.M.ROBERTS (Leader of the Opposition): I would like to ask what amounts to a supplementary question and I put it in the form of a question although I suspect one would have to put a question mark at the end of the statement, Sir. The problem in White Bay North is in addition to t~e main road being closed. The Area in North St. Anthony which includes Quirpon, L'Anse-au-Meadow, Hay Cove, Straitsview, Noddy Bay area, the machinery has been out of action more than it has been in action and what is needed is an assurance that either new machinery will be provided or additional machinery will be provided.

What we have had happen, Sir, in the last few days in that part of White Bay North is really a comple;e breakdown of the snow removal services. That affects not only access to and from the hospital but access to and from the schools. All of the children, Sir, in that part of White Bay North now move by bus to the schools. All the schools are centralized. There is an Integrated School and a Pentecostal School and no other schools there. There is an all-grade Pentecostal School at St.

Lunaire for all of the children of the Pentecostal Assemblies in tha~ area and an Integrated School in Gunners Cove for all the children from grade one to grade eight. The high school children all go to St. Anthony. In addition to that, Sir, there are no stores that carry any large food supplies any more. They all now look to - in effect, they have a two or three or four day reserve, Given two or three or four 1102

February 20, 1974, Tape 336, Page 2 -- apb days without trucks co~ing up, you do run into, not emergencies, Mr. Speaker, nobody is on the verge of starvation - but into in­ conveniences that are beginning to be serious inconveniences. I guess my question is; would the minister undertake to in behalf of his colleague see the officials concerned and to impress upon them the urgency of the situation.

If they wish to see either myself or my colleague we would be happy to give them the information'we have • Would he undertake, possibly, to let us know,either in the House or outside, whichever is convenient, as it is of terrific concern to the people of that area? The services have broken down completely and something has to be done. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for St. Barbe North: MR.

F.B.ROWE: I would like to address a question to the honourable Minister of Justice and I think it is a very serious question, the answer to which may give honourable members on both sides of the House some clarification: Is it the practice of civil servants such as district superintendents of highways to refuse to answer an elected representative of this honourable House when asked if he had made representation to his minister for such things as additional snow clearing equipment in his own district? MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I will answer the first question put by the honourable the Leader of the Opposition and assure him that I will attempt to get the information from the officials of the Department of Transportation and Communications this afternoon. With respect to the question put by the honourable the member for St. Barbe North, to me that is really not a proper question,it is an imputation. I cannot comment on the practice of public servants.

As far as I know we have in Newfoundland a group of highly dedicated public servants and I do know that in the Department of Transportation and Communications, particularly in th~ vinter months, that those who are in charge of snow clearing operatiorua work far, far beyond the call of duty. I would be very surprised indeed, if any of them failti!d at any time to respond to th"1r obligations and responsibilities.- 1103

February 20, 19741 Tape 336, Page 3 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWf.: Mr. Speaker, a point of clariHcation: I would like the House to understand that I was not accusing any members of the Department of Transportation and C011BDunications of being negligent in their duties, I was just asking a question of principle here. Sir, does the honourable Minister of Justice realize that two days ago a trucker carrying $4,000 worth of vegetables, milk, fruit and cream lost approximately $2,500 of his cargo because be was refused permission to plug the heater of his truck into the Department of Highways Depot in St.

Barbe while the highway was blocked to the St. Barbe Bay Basin Area? MR. SPEAKER: It appears to me that the question is basically out of order. It is a statement of fact rather than a question. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for White Bay South: MR.. W.N.ROWE: Finished? Everybody finished? 1104

February 20, 1974 Tape no, 337 Pagel - MW MR. W. ROWE: Is the "Burp from Burgeo" finished, Mr •. Speaker? May I direct a question to the Hon. Minister of Forestry? Would the minister inform the H~use whether any person or firm has been retained by his department or any other department of government to prepare these advert1sements that are appearing in various newspapers and on the radio stations, I think, concerning the government's policy on forestry? HON, E, MAYNARD (Minister of Forestry and Agriculture): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, there has been a firm retained (I just forget the firm) to -do the necessary advertising on the forest policy. MR. W. ROWE: Would the honourable minister undertake to get me the name, if he could check with one of his officials? Apparently, the Leader of the Opposjtion knows but I am not quite sure that it is the same firm that both gentlemen are talking about, MR. MAYNARD: The name of the official from that firm? MR. W. ROWE: No. I would .like the name of the firm itself, Mr.

Speaker, Would the minister undertake to give me or to give the House, orally, publicly, an ~stimate of the cost of this advertising campaign or the cost of the contract entered into between his department or the government and this particular firm? MR. MAYNARD: I will try to provide the House with that information, Mr, Speaker., MR. W. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: I would like to direct a similar question to the Minister of Fisheries.

Would the Minister of Fisheries indicate to the House if ·the paid political broadcast~ involving civil servants are sponsored by the Newfoundland Information Services or are they handled by George McLean? How much are they costing? AN HON. MEMBER: Cover up again. MR. SPEAKER: The question should be placed on the Order Paper. 1105

February 20, 1974 Tape no. 337 Page 2 MR. NEARY: We are not going to get much information from the honourable minister I can see that. Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question and I think the only one I can direct it to is the Minister of Justice, the (Acting) Premier. Would the minister indicate to the House if the government have taken any decision on a petition signed by over seventy-eight per cent of the employees in Confederation Building, requesting that the lunch hour be reduced to one hour so that the working day would be from 9:00 A.M. to 5:00 P.M., instead of 9:00 A.M. to 5:30 P.M.? HON. T. A.

HICKMAN (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker,! am speaking now from recollection. I think all ministers were asked to look at this petition because it is not the only one. There is a great divergence of opinion amongst those employed in this building as to what the closing hours would be. Whilst we want to accoDDDOdate the public servants of this province, we do have a paramount duty to accomodate the public of Newfoundland who want to use this building and in the light of that no decision has been made. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Industrial Development could bring us up to date on the government's announced second hardwood plant for Central or Western Newfoundland, which the Premier announced some time ago? HON. W. DOODY (Minister of Industrial Develqpment): Mr. Speaker, to the best of my knowledge, there was ·no second hardwood plant announced for Newfoundland.

As I understand it and from my comments on it, the announcement was to the effect tha~ a Finnish firm, that is a firm from Finland, not a finished firm, had undertaken, in conjunction with the Department of Forestry and with the Department of Economic Development 1 to run some tests on the birch stands in the province. We undertook to supply them with some 1,500 to 3,000 cords of birch for that purpose and the results were to have been evaluated and if 110.6--. "· •, ; . ...

February 20, 1974 Tape no. 337 Page 3 found satisfactory, then we would look into the possibility of establishing such a hardwood factory. Io date we have not been able to find the required size to the specification of the Finnish firm and the thing just sits there as it is. We hope to convince them that they should try some of the smaller birch that we have in this province but to date they · have not come along to our way of thinking. MR. M. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question I wish to direct to the Hon. Minister of Health. A few days ago I directed a question in his absence to the Hon.

Premier, concerning a health clinic which had been planned for the Port Hope Simpson Area, the plans for which seemed to have become lost somewhere. I wonder if the minister could shed any l!~ht on this at this particular time? HON. DR. A. T. ROWE (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, there is a plan in the works I had to look up because I had no knowledge that ~he honourable member had asked this question.

In Port Hope Simpson and some other community near by, the question boiled down to whether we should divide the nurses,(there are two nurses) whether they would isolate themselves, one living in one place and one in the other or whether they would not wish to combine the services into one clinic. I will endeavour to give the honourable member the specific information when I have checked on it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. Would 1107

February 20, 1974 Tape No. 338 NM - 1 / the Minister of Justice indicate to the House whether or not he bas received a letter from me dated February 11, 1974 requesting a commission of enquiry into the Saunders scandal? MR. HICKMAJ.~: Mr. Speaker, I, together with every other honourable member of the House, received a letter from the honourable the member for Bell Island. I found it a most offensive letter, a letter that would put the late Senator McCarthy's tactics in the light of that of a Sunday School teacher. The letter referred to political wheeling and dealing.

It was submitted to the press, circulated to everyone who wanted to hear it, without any allegations and to substantiate that· then went on to ask if the police be involved in the investigation or something which - MR. NEARY: R.C.M.P. MR. HICKMAN: The honourable the Leader of the Opposition was very I careful,and I read and reread it and I did not read it alone, in his speech to say that he was not suggesting that there was any crime involved and I have not the slightest intention - MR. ROBERTS: I made no such statement. I made a statement with irresistible inference. MR.

HICKMAN: I would certainly not allow the police to become involved in investigating irresistible inferences. The other thing, while I a.m on my feet, Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: What about the disposal of .the Bell Island assets? MR. HICKMAN: Well the honourable gentleman knows far more about the disposal of - MR. NEAJ'Y: No I do not, the honourable minister knows all about it. MR, SPEAKER: Order please! MR. lilCK.""!A..~: The letter that was attached is an appendix to his letter from the honourable member from Bell Island, which was a copy of a letter sent to the Department of National Revenue.

Well, it is not for me to advise Hr. Saunders, but if that letter is not libelous then I cannot interpret the word libel. 1108

February 20, 1974 Tape No. 338 NM - 2 Apart from that, Mr. Speaker, the colleague of the honourable member for Bell Island, more than anticipated his letter because he has placed on the Order Paper of this House a resolution that we debate,the necessity of appointing a commission. I am sure that the honourable the member for Ub.ite Bay South would not have put it on if he did not want to have a full and adequate debate of this resolution. I would suggest that there should be closer communication between the two honourable gentlemen. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I might say to the honourable minister that the Income Tax Department have done me the courtesy of replying to the letter. Does the minister, Mr, Speaker, intend to reply to my letter or does he intend to take the necessary steps to set up the commission of enquiry? ls that my understanding of what the minister said? tIR· HICKMAN: To the honourable memb,er for Bell Island; my reply now 'there is no point in repeating it. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the statement that the Minister of Justice just ma~e and as the Acting Premier ~ould the minister agree to move the resolution my colleague placed on the Order Paper ahead of all the other resolutions on the Order Paper at the present time~ We can debate it today instead of - MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, there are other resolutions on the Order Paper which are certainly of equal importance to the people of Newfoundland and which should be adequately debated and ventilated and I am sure that honourable members have to agree with that.

Imagine the two resolutions on fisheries being aside for debate on this. ..­ MR. NF.ARY: Coward. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Before we get into Orders of the Day, it has just been brought to my attention that in the galleries we have Mayor Janes and Councillor Browne of Change Islands and I would like to welcome these two gentlemen to the galleries today. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. srEAKER: We continue with motion no. 3 on the Order Paper 1109

February 20, 1974 Tape No. 338 NM - 3 I think the honourable member for White Bay South adjourned the debate the last day. MR. WM. ROWE: Mr. !;peaker, does one of the officials at the table know how much time I expended last day speaking on this? AN HON. ME:illER: Three hours • MR. WM. ROWE: It sounded like about three hours. How much? k Fift i t I W ish it were fifteen minutes Thank you, Mr. Spea er. y II!- nu es. but it is fifty minutes and I have to fill it up. Mr. Speaker, I am sorry the Minister of Finance is not here today.

I hate to come close to slandering a man in his absence but it is not ~y fault he is not here. I wish he . were here. Last day he got up and was slinging around all kinds of gross accusations. When it comes our time to sling a few back at him he seems to disappear, to ~vaporate off the face of the earth.

He talked about how when he was the shining knight in white armour or on a white charger rathLr, a shining knight on a white charger, LibE\ral Reform Leader, sitting on that side of the House with the previous . ad~inistration and he called for legislation to deal with election irregularities and election expenses, we voted against it over there. ' Of course, it is coming clo~e to, well I would not say dishonesty but it is coming close to something along that line, Sir, for him to pretend to the House that he does not know why.

A man who was then straight on his path towards his abysmal defeat in his leadership try for the Liberal Party and he was trying to give \ every impression of being Mr. Clean, not unlike the Minister of Justice, unassociated with any kind of corrupt election practices or anything like that and he knew that the members on that side of the House would have to vote against 1110

February 20, 1974 Tape 339 PK - l h:f.s resolution, Sir, because he hasi,.~~orced them into such a position. Now, Sit, we have reached the position where one of his own colleagues, the Member for St~ John's North,very wisely and very ably moved a motion before this House calling for certain legislative measures to be brought into the House.and to be made in order to control the possibility of abuses at election time and providing also for the public financing of election campaigns. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Finance gets on his feet two years after or three years after making an urgent cry and plea for the immediate introduction of this kind of a thing, gets on his feet and says well we may or may not do it this session. We may or may not do it as the Hon. the Member for St. John's North has recommended it. Suddenly it loses the sense of urgency which he had when he was trying to become the great reform leader in this province.

Sir, last day I said and it was quoted in the "Evening Telegram" and I will say it again for the record that if there were any hypocrisy shown by any members on this side of the House when they were on that side of the House, because they voted against his resolution and subsequently now support it when we are on this side of the House, if that is hypocrisy, r Sir, it is hypocrisy of a far less damaging type than a member of the House who when he is not in power cries out for something garners votes unto himself, p,arners support onto himself for a certain position and when he gets into a position, when he gets into a place of power then suddenly finds all the excuses in the world why he cannot bring that legislation before the House or why the thing he earlier called for cannot be done on an urgent basis.

That kind of hypocrisy, Sir, is far worse~ than any sho.m by any other member of this House, on both side of this House. He tries to say that well 'we brought in an amendment which he cannot support because it involves the Government of Canada legislation. I have already said to him that the only reason we brought in that legislation is hecaui;e it directs the F;OV('rnment to do a definite thing. It toughens up, it supports in principle the motion broueht in by the Hembcr for St. John's 1111

February 2-0, 1974 Tape 339 PK - 2 North but it toughens it up, it fives the government more guidel:lnes and more direction as to how they should proceed in this matter. We now see that we had good reason to toughen up the legislatjon or the motion brought in by the member; because we have seen the Minister of Finance use every tactic in the book to try and get out of bringing it in at least this session or probably at any session of this honourable House. This government and the Minister of Finance particularly has lost his enthusiasm,since they gained power, Mr.

Speaker, lost their enthusiasm for this much needed reform. That is why we moved a motion of amendment to the main motion before the House because we could see that the enthusiasm -for it had be£>n lost. We could see that a backbencher of, the government side of the House felt constrained to bring it in on his own. The government were obviously making no moves to bring it in themselves. Therefore we thought that it was necessary to toughen up the motion before the House. Mr. Speaker, let me mention one other thing concerning this whole debate.

It concerns an editorial whith appeared in the "Evening Telegram' ·' a couple of days ago when the Minister of Finance rose in this House on a so-called point of privilege. It turned out it was no point of privilege whatsoever. He asked the House to do nothing. ·ue got up · and complained about the unfairness of an editorial by a respected writer and journalist in the province. He got up and complained about it, whined about it and moaned about how unfair it was and admitted that the writer had gone nowhere near the laws of libel or slander. He admitted that quite freely.

Asked the House to do nothing about it. ~ He did not ask that the man be brought before the Bar to answer for his grave allegations or charges. He did not say that the House impose a penalty on the writer or anything like that. No, Mr. Speaker, he did not have the fortitude to take any decisive action. Instead he flings out a challenge to the writer, invites the writer to break the law, invites the writer to make slanderous and libelous allegations against the Minister of Finance so that the minister could issue a wr:1.t against him and brinR the matter into court, 1112

MR. W.N.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, the member for Bonavista Nort'. MR. MORGAN: South. MR. W.N.ROWE: South. What a gross slander on my own colleague. The niember for Bonavista South, I am very disappointed in the honourable member, Sir. There was a time when he was the great independent in this House, a man who would take the right side of the issue no matter who brought the issue forward. Now, all of a sudden, the Premier must have spoken to him. He must have said: "Now my son, you be a good b<>y_ and toe the line and you may go in the cabinet," MR. MORGAN: Point of order, Mr . Speaker. On a point of order. MR.

W.N.ROWE: What is the point of order, Mr. Speaker ·? MR. MORGAN: We are debating an amendment brought forward by the honourable member for White Bay North with regard to financing of election expenses. I fail to see what my involvement as the member for Bonavista South has to do with election campaign expenses. MR. W,N.ROWE: That is right, Mr. Speaker. MR. MORGAN: Al.so, what the honourable member for St. John's West had to say about a so-called Journalist two days ago in this House. I ask for a ruling, Mr. Speaker. MR. W.N.ROWE: May I speak to the point of order, Sir, before you make your ruling?

Sir, I did not mention the member for Bonavista South until he himself ignorantly interrupted me in my speech. If the honourable member for Bonavista South persists in discourteously and ignorantly interrupting me in my speech, he can expect to get as good or better in return, Mr. Speaker. On that point of order I would ask you to so rule as well ~hat a member of this House has the right to be heard in silence, MR.

SPEAKER: I will remind the honourable member for Bonavista South that when an honourable member is speaking he does have the right to be heard in silence; and the honourable member for White Bay South was not being relevant to the amendment in question. MR. W.N.ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, A1J far as the other point about the journalist who wrote an editorial, the editorial, Mr. Speaker, 1113

February 20, 1974, Tape 340, Page 2 -- apb was about election financing and the possibility of corruption and abuse, That is what I am talking about, Mr. Speaker. The hono~rable member for Bonavista South is obviously too busy writing letters to the editor under a pseudonym to read the editorials that appear in the same paper. If he read the editorials, Sir, if he read the editorials he would know that what I am talking about is on point. The editorial concerned the position taken by the honourable Minister of Finance, the member for St. John's West,on this very thing we are talking about.

Perhaps if he spent more time reading the paper instead of writing letters under a pseudonym, pretending that letters are coming in from Bonavista North, Mr~ Speaker, perhaps we would get further in this House. MR. THOMS: Surely the member is not doing that! Is he? MR. W.N.ROWE: No. No, No. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. W.N.ROWE: No point of privilege was in fact raised by the honourable Minister of Finance, no infraction of any of the rules of the House, Mr.

Speaker, yet he saw fit to drag the matter in and bore us to death for fifteen minutes over there, as he got this thing off his chest and whined and moaned about how unfairly he was being treated. Mr. Speaker, let me say something about that type of editorial on election financing. As far as I am concerned, Sir, the only thing that stands between a government, this government or any other government, being completely arrogant and contemptuous of the. people is a good opposition and a good, solid press corp.

It is for that reason, Sir, that I say, if the Government of this Province, this government or any other government, were satisfied with the news service, if they were satisfied with the comments made on election fi~ancing or anything else by writers in this province, then I would say democracy or anything else, good government in this province would be in a very, very sad shape. 1114

February 20, 1974, Tape 340, Page 3 -- apb If . the Minister of Finance,particularly,were satisifed with the way journalists were covering his speeches on election financing and his position on election financing, then 1 would say that we would be in sad shape in this province. Hon the other hand, Sir, and I speak as a member of the opposition as well as a past member of a government, if any particular government, especially this one, are outraged, irritated, annoyed beyond question by the treatment received by the government from a journalist like Mr.

Wick Collins, then I say that democracy is in a healthy position, in a healthy state in this province. No one, Sir, felt the wrath of journalists more, Sir, than we did when we were in the government. Wick Collins himself, Ray Guy, Peter Simple, lateTally - the Late Peter Simple - I hope his position is filled by somebody of - it would be hard to find anyone of the same calibre but so111ebody close to the same calibre - but nobody felt the wrath of journalists and commentators and editors 1115

February 20, 1974 Tape no. 341 Page 1 - MRW more than we did. I for one, Sir, as a member of this House in public life do not complain•about it, even though some times we thought that we were being unfairly treated. I say to Wick Collins, Sir, and every other editor and journalist in this province: Go to it with a heart and a half, Pay no attention to the whining and moaning of the Minister of Finance or any other member of the government concerning the position they might be assuming on election financing.

I say to Wick Collins and other journalists: Give every member of this House, if they deem fit, give every member of this House a scathing time on any position that they might assume and espe~ially members of the government. If the time should come that we go into the government and we assume a silly, idiotic position on election financing like the Minister of Finance has, Sir, then I invite Wick Collins to give us a touch of the whip as well. Tear us to shreds this government here or any other government. What is the Minister of Finance complaining about, Sir?

A government with unlimited resources, unlimited finances, unlimited practically, manpower to get his message across to the people as we have seen by the answer from the Minister of Forestry today, hire on firms and get them to sell their message, using public funds to propagandize the people. The Minister of Finance has the face and the gall to rise like a whimpering whipped pup in this House and complain about a journalist giving him a hard time in the papers. Mr. Speaker, I encourage - MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order. MR. W. ROWE: What is wrong with "Witch Hunt Willy?" MR. MARSHALL: Hr.

Speaker, we have heard for fifteen minutes about the reactions of the Hon. Minister of Finance to the paper, which has ·no relationship, Hr. Speaker, to the mat.ter now before the Chair, which is the resolution of the Hon. Member for St, John's North, In other words, he is not being relevant. 1116

February 20, 1974 Tape no. 341 Page 2 MR. W. ROWE: May I speak to that point of order, Sir1 Mr. Speaker, I am speaking about election financing and I am speaking·about abuses of elections and controls of abuses. 1 am talking about the position assumed by the Minister of Finance on that very question. I am talking about a comlilent made by an editor on that very question. 1 am talking about the position then assumed by the Minister of Finance on that very question • . How can one be more relevant to the question before the House, Mr. Speaker? I submit that the point of order is not a point of order at all. MR.

MARSHALL: If the honourable member wished to discuss it. the proper time for him to have discussed that, Mr. Speaker, was yesterday when it was brought up in the House. At that time 0 he could have objected that it was not a point of privilege or something. Now he has gone on for about ten minutes on a tirade against the llinister of Finance and we are talking about public financing of elections. I submit that he is really wandering from the subject. MR. W. ROWE: Sit down: It hurts too much,does it? MR.

SPEAKER: I am sure that all honourable members are aware that the rule of relevancy is one of the most difficult ones to rule on. However, the Hon. Member for White Bay South, 1 think, was straying a little from the amendment in question. I would caution him to be perhaps a little more relevant as he continues to speak. MR. W. ROWE: Anyway, Sir, I was saying that governments do have unlimited resources and chis can be an election abuse. They can hire firms as the Minister of Forestry is now doing, leading up to an election, which may come a year or two from now. Using public funds; Mr.

Speaker~ if that is not an election abuse, what is? That is what I am talking about. I do not expect us to sink into the cerebral brain matter of the Member for St. John's East, Sir. 1117

f'cbruary 20, 1974 Tape no. 341 I do not expect that _to happen. That is asking too .mu.ch. Sir. lam talking about election abuses. A government, Sir, have everything in their favour. 3 They have lopsided powers. I would hate to see any member of the press, if I am in the government or not, I would hate to see any member of the press, Sir, being intimidated by the "bully boy tactics" of the Minister of Finance or any other minister. I am sure that Wic~ Collins will not be so bullied.

I am sure now that the Minister of Finance can exp.ect one or two other editotials with mild comments on positions assumed by the Minister of Finance. I hope be does that. I hope that Wick Collins, if we get into government or any other journalist, tea'CS us into shreds as well. There is a tendency for governments, and there is no clearer example than this one, who consist of members who are contrite and humble before going into power, there is a tendency for governments to become arrogant and contemptuous of the people and of elected members of the House. Mr.

Speaker, the only bulwark standing between the government and the people is an opposition and a press. I ask the press 1118

February 20, 1974 Tape 342 PK - 1 to continue their scathing attacks on this government and us when we go into the government after the next election. Let me get to the Ottawa legislation, Sir, which is the principle really of this amendment moved. I may have strayed somewhat. The last day when I was talking about this I mentioned some of the highlights of this legislation. The public disclosure of names of donors who contrtbuted $100 or more to a registered party or candidate. Strict limits on the amount of money spend during election campaigns.

Shortening the time period during which political advertising can take place and so on. On the spending limit, Sir, the Ottawa Act limits the amount of money which political parties and candidates can spend in an election. Parties are allowed to spend no more than thirty cents for each registered elector on the voting list, in each riding, in each constituency in which the party has a candidate. Candidates themselves, Sir, the individual candidate himself is limited to one dollar for each of the first 15,000 voters registered on the voting list and fifty cents for each of the next.

So you can see that if a riding, a constituency has say 15,000 voters registered on the prelimin ·ary voting list then the limit of money to be spent by the • candidate .himself would be $15,000, in that particular riding. Of course, as I read the legislation the party itself could spend another thirty cents for each voter on the voting list which means that all the voters in Canada, in the case of the federal scene, the various parties can spend thirty cents for each elector, for each voter on the preliminary votinr, list. ....

As far as election expenses are concerned, Sir, the new Ottawa Act broademinvolvement in political parties by encouraging volunteer support and small donations rather than as it has happened in the past with all parties including the N.N.P. who get large donations from unions. This new act encourages volunteer support, volunteer work and small donations rather than concentrating on the few large donors and supporters. The act strictly defines what are to be included as election expenses. 1119

February 20, 1974 Tape 342 PK - 2 They are defined as the amounts paid, election expenses are the amounts actually paid in cash, liabilities incurred. In other words, Sir, the time will be gone when say a person or a firm can allow a political party the use of aircraft, for example, whether it is in the Hermitage by-election or somewhere else, either not billed for i.t or billed the government for it, add it on to another bill. That day is gone, Sir, hopefully. Any liabilities which are incurred by political parties at fair value are · considered to be election expenses.

The collll!lerical value of goods and services donated or provided other than simple volunteer labour, workers and this sort of thing, but if you hire somebody to do a job for you like HcLeans, for example, George McLeans firm. AN HON. MEMBER: Inau dible. MR. MWE 1 (W.N.): I do not know but if I can gather from what the Minister of Finance said last day, George McLean and his firms either did not bill the P,C.

Party at all or did not bill them as high as he should have because he was relying, according to the Minister of Finance, on the possibility of patronage from the government after that party got into power, if it did, and as it happened it did. Well, Mr. Speaker, that surely should be outlawed. That surely should become an offence if that attempt is 1T1ade unless the liability incurred is listed as an election expense. That would make it fair. Then it not only becomes public that George McLean is owed several hundred thousands of dollars by the P.C. Party while he is doing government work. That becomes public.

Also, of course, the fact that liability is incurred, that liability is taken on by the P.C. Party means that they are obliged to spend less money in other areas of their campaigning. Sir, there are one or two other examples: Only registered parties, candidates and persons acting on their behalf with their knowledge and consent can incur election expenses during an election period. Anyone else incurrin~ election expenses commits an offence a~ainst this act. That is another good and beneficial amendment, Sir. Both parties I would submit, the P.C.

Party and the Liberal Perty,are constantly plar,ucd during an election campair,n by the fact that unauthorized people are always running up bills durinr, an election, 1120

Februa~ 20, 1974 Tape No. 343 NM·- 1 during the campaign. We had one case for example where a man looking for nomination - AN HON, MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. WM. ROWE: Yes, ask the Minister of Municipal Affairs about Abe Godwin, clobbered him as a Liberal, would not clobber him now as a Tory, I do not think. Clobbered as a Liberal, I think Abe got a couple of hundred votes or less. AN HON. MEMBER: How about saying it was 760 votes. MR. WM. ROWE: Oh we are looking into that now. Poor old Abe finally had to admit at the end of the programme that somebody put him up to it.

He said; ''Well I really did not do it myself, I was put up to this." AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. WM. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, if Your Honour would care to afford \ me some protection. Anyway, Abe Godwin is not the biggest problem in this House, Mr. Speaker, I would submit. Mr. Speaker, disclosure is another important element of the federal act. All contributions over $100 to registered parties and to candidates or their agents must be disclosed. The nature of the contributor, individual, that is if he is an individual or a corporation or whatever he might be, must be disclosed.

The name of the contributor and the amount contributed must be disclosed, Good and beneficial provisions in that federal act. No contributor to a political party or a candidate can cover his contributions by making them through a third party. There will.be no, well this would not happen in Newfoundland anyway, but none of the things that would happen in the United States where they try to wash the p~litical contributions by putti..ng them through Panama or through the Bahamas or through Switzerland for that matter, none of that kind of thing would go on, Mr.

Speaker, or if it did go on it would be a gross infringement on the act and people could go to jail as a result. All statements and documents of both contributions and expenditures 1121

February 20, 1974 Tape No. 343 NM - 2 of parties and candidates during an election are required to be g1ven to the Chief Electoral Officer and become available for public examin~tion. That is of course the most important provision of all. The press, Mr. Wick Collins, could have one or two comments on the expenditures of the Progressive Conservative Party or the Liberal Party and that is of course where the strength of this legislation comes through.

All election expenses and contributions and reports, all reports of election expenses and contributions of candidates, will be published by the Chief Electoral Officer in a newspaper in the constituency concerned. The candidate must provide an official report to an auditor within two months of an election which is then passed on to the Chief Electoral Officer. Registered parties must provide an audited report for ekch election for public examination as well, Mr. Speaker. As far ae campaign advertising is concerned, we will get some blessed relief under the new legislation in Ottawa.

The act in Ottawa, the federal act,provides for six and a half hours of guaranteed prime time for both television and radio to registered parties. Fifty per cent of the cost of this time, which must be sold by the stations at the lowest rate, will be paid for by public funds. That I think is an excellent indication as to the direction taken by the federal parties as well, Mr. Speaker. Allocation of the time among parties will be made by a formula supervised by the C.R.T.C.

Of course now the Minister of Finance would at this point get up and start howling, moaning, whining and groaning again about the C.R.T.C. and how they do not afford any protection, do not afford any protection to the public in Newfoundland or in Canada. Media advertising, and that would include television, radio, newspapers, magazines, will not be permitted at all, Mr. Speaker, until the twenty-ninth day before polling day, In other words, Sir, we get about a month of advertising during a federal election campaign, that is all. No longer will we have to put up with the nonsense from all three 1122

February 20, 1974 Tape No. 343 h:i - 3 or four parties in Canada go;ing on for two or three months before the election, completely satiating every elector in Canada. Now we will at least have only one month of it, which is quite long enough I would submit, Sir, and parties and candidates and certainly the public should welcome that kind of a provision. The only exception to that rule,are for meetings whose principle purpose are the nomination of candidates. Obviously you have to advertise that a 1123

February 20, 1974. Tape 344 RH - l meeting is being held to nominate candidates for parties (well 1 that is okay. There has never been too much problem there, too much of an abuse there)or for the promoting of visits by party leaders and since party leaders can only be in one place at one time and Canada is a big country, then there will not be too much problem there. Lawn signs, pamphlets, and canvassing, ~oing around from door .to door, for example, will still be allowed during the total campaign period. Well 1 that is reasonable as well. Mr.

Speaker, there is also a system for tax credits, for donations to political parties,under the Federal Act. Contributions can be made on a yearly basis to political parties or to parties and to car-d\dates at the election time but contributions can only be made to r~gistered agents of parties and official agents of candidates to be eligible for tax credit. Not everybody can accept part funds, donations any more, Mr. Speaker. The person who can accept the funds, on behalf of the party or the candidate,must be publicly registered as such.

Now I hope, Sir, we will get rid of this insidious bagman scheme that has grown up all over the Western world where nobody publicly knows who the bagman is ex­ cept by rumor and usually scandalous rumor, The job itself becomes a very unsavory one. Publicly, all kinds of things thrown around about a person who is involved in collection. The thing is now opened up, a breath of fresh air blown across it under the Ottawa Act and they are official receivers, so to speak 1 for candi­ dates and for parties.

In order to widen the basis of cqntributions, to get as many people contributing as possible to political parties and candidates, as I men­ tioned the act provides for tax credits. A tax credit is a direct re­ duction of the Federal Income Tax payable in any given year on an individual tax form. For example, the example I had provided for me here is if a person must pay, for example, one h~ndred dollars in federal taxes 1124

February 20, 1974. Tape 344 RH - 2 in an given year, if that is what his taxes are, after all deductions are made, one hundred dollars in federal taxes, but if he has made one hundred dollars by way of contribution to a political party he will receive, Sir, a tax credit on that one hundred dollars of seventy­ five dollars and he would then only have to pay twenty~five dollars in federal taxes, The formula which applies to this is that seventy-five per cent of a contribution up to one hundred dollars becomes a tax credit.

Between one hundred dollars and five hundred and fifty dollars, seventy­ five per cent plus fifty per cent between one hundred dollars and five hundred - in other words, there is a reducing scale but very generous tax credits are allowed. For example, if it is a contribution of one hundred dollars it is seventy-five dollars tax credit, two hundred dollars would be one hundred and twenty-five dollar tax credit deducted right off the income tax that a person would have to pay.

If it is one thousand dollars that is contributed to a party, then the taxpaper can deduct four hundred and fifty dollars right off the tax which he ordinarily would have to pay to the Government of Canada. This encourages, Sir, the donations of small amounts of money to the various political parties throughout Canada. There is also a provision for the reimbursement of money to candidates who have taken

part in an election. Naturally, you have to make a provision for your nuisance candidates. If a person 1125

February 20, 1974. Tape 345 RH - 1 If a person, Sir, thought he could run and get money from Ottawa just for the sake of running then, of course, you would get a lot of people who would be running, politically and registering parties and rloing it all. So, the act, by agreement of all parties in the House of Commons, the act provides that candidates who are elected or who have received fifteen per cent or more of the popular vote and who have provided all the information required by the act are entitled to a certain amount of reimbursement.

For example, the postage cost of first-class mailing to every voter on the voter's list, eight cents for each of the first 25,000 voters on the voters list and six cents after that; up to $250.00 to assist in payment of the auditor required by the act and in certain large ridings and I would say Newfoundland should certainly come under that particular heading; in certain large ridings the actual value of candidates travelling expenses to a maximun of $3,000 Mr. Speaker.

So, for example, if there are 15,000 voters in a district, a candidate, besides the other things mentioned on media, advertising and that, can receive $1,200 by way of reimbursement. If, for example, there are 60,000 voters in a particular riding, it rises but by diminish­ ing amounts, 60,000 voters the government provides the candidate,provided he gets elected or gets fifteen per cent of the vote cast, he can receive $3,600 from the Government of Canada. Mr.

Speaker, this act has been characterized as the toughest and most progressive election expenses legislation conceived and brought into Canada and it goes away beyond what provincial governments,including N.D.P. governments who are always yapping off about this sort of thing, have brought in to contro~ election expenses in their provinces. A good piece of legislation. Mr. Speaker, the only problem with it is that it probably does not go quite far enough. For example, the Minister of Finance brought ~Pa good point in his remarks last day.

He mentioned that cor­ porations should not be permitted to contribute to political parties. 1126 ' I

February 20, 1974, Tape 345 RH - 2 They are not permitted in the United States, although we have seen abuses of that. I agree with the Minister of Finance on it. Soulless corporations who are responsible .to nobody, no conscience, no nothing, just a machine, a legal fiction, should not be able to contribute to political parties,and we would get rid of a lot of abuses if that were in fact the position. Unfortunately, it is not under this legislation. For some reason or other, they have decided that this legal fiction would be treated as a legal person for the purposes of contributions as well.

I think our act, and we only call for the act to be similar to the one in Ottawa, I think that our act could contain an injunction against, a constraint against the contributions by corporations. Mr. Speaker, I think that for a variety of reasons it is wise for us to have

an act similar to the one in Ottawa. In the first place, Sir, a lot of thought and expertise has been brought to bear on this question, nationally. There is agreement by all parties as to the worth of this act, although the N.D.P. Party, in many cases, wanted to go further perhaps,in the corporation aspect which I just mentioned, I believe,but they were willing to compromise. There is need, I think, for regularity, for uniformity of legislation in the Province and in Ottawa so that people who take

part in both elections and we all know that people who get involved in one election provincially get involved in another election, federally. It would be good,to the benefit of all if there were some uniformity between Ottawa and the Province<;. The fact that we do not have the power in this House to pass legislation on certain things is nothing, Mr. ~peaker.

That is just a red herring dragged into the debate by the Minister of Finance because I am sute that if a resolution of this House went up to the Government of Canada saying that in provincial elections we would like this federal legislation to be passed in respect of the media, for example, the income tax deductions, in respect of radio and television, the Government o( Canada would have 1127

February 20, 1974. Tape 345 RH - 3 no hesitation at all in acceding to our request in that regard. Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Finance said earlier, he tried to give the impression that we, for some reason, were in the hands of Ottawa in this. Can we not think for ourselves? Of course we can, Mr. Speaker. I think I have given some of the reasons why it is wise to have similar legislation. If we can convince Ottawa that certain changes should be made in their legislation,beneficial, I am all for that as well.

What I am against, Sir, is the obvious attempts by the Minister of Finance and his colleagues,at every turn, to try to get involved in confrontation politics with Ottawa, for no other reason than that they are trying to, or the Minister of Finance and perhaps the Premier and some others of his colleagues are trying to give the impression that they are a great Newfoundland first Government. Mr. Speaker, nobody believes that. The simplest babe does not believe that · this Government is a great, heroic Newfoundland first Government any­ more than any other government, any other government.

AN HO~OURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. W. ROWE: What is wrong with Poster Peckford? What did he say? What did the poster-snatcher say? The same sort of a strangled muttering when he brought the posters back. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, there is no need for confrontations of this nature, no need whatsoever. Co-operation is obviously what is needed and so Sir, I would suggest that we do something along these lines. If it is a thirty day provision which bothers the Minister of Finar.ce, we said within thirty days, we will gladly accept an amendment that says that

an act similar, similar, that is all, not exactly, similar to that brought into the Rouse of Commons and passed by the House of Commons, be introduced into this House during this session. Thirty days is not - we put in thirty days because we want it to come in during this session, We vol1ld like to see it come in during this session but if any member on this side or that side want to amend it,want to move an amendment to 1128

February 20, 1974. Tape 345 RH - 4 our amendment and say this session rather than thirty days and that red herring is relieved, it has gotten out of the picture, well then we would accede to that, no problem whatsoever. We would like to see some firm guidelines given to the Government by this House as to the type of legislation we would like to see brought in. It is unsettling to hear the Minister of Finance in a wishy-washy, waffling type of way say, "Well, we can support in principle what the member for St. John's North has recommended.

We might not go along with the election financing aspect of it or we might not go along with certain controls, we might not go along with this." In other words, Mr. Speaker, if we ever do get a bill introduced into this House, it will be about as sensible and about as useful as the Conflict of Interest Legislation which the Minister of Finance is so proud of. A useless piece of legislation that you can drive about fifteen twenty ton trucks through at any given time, there is so many holes in it.

Ways to avoid that legislatio~ - we do not want to see and any think­ ing member of this House of Assembly and I assume they all th~nk, no thinking member wants to see a wishy-washy piece of legislation passed through this ·House for the sake of form. Let us have a piece of legis­ lation with teeth in it. I think that is what the member for St. John's Nor.th had in mind, a piece of legislation with teeth in it, legislation that does not allow anybody by the exercise of a little bit of cunning or ingenuity to get around it, Mr. Speaker, Let us have some real con­ trols and some real teeth into legislat~on.

One similar to the Ottawa one would do that ar.d there can be improvements made on ·that and we can test this type of election act out during the next federal election and the next provincial el~ction, see how it works. If it does not· work, let us improve it. Let us add things to it or detract things from it in order to make the thing work properly but let us have something with teeth because 1 Sir, if a bill is not brought in during this session of the House then there will not be any legislation 1129

February 20, 1974. Tape 345 RH - 5 I would submit, Sir, to govern the next provincial election in this Province or if there is legislation that _governs the next provincial election it will be a total catastrophe and fiasco because there are some complicated provisions in any election expenses or election con­ trols legislation. There are some complication in it, ~r. Speaker and enough time has to be allowed to elapse to make sure that people who take

part in elections, officials, campaign managers, workers, any­ one involved in it has a full understanding of the act and it would be no good to pass

an act in the next session of the House, have an election called, say in June of next yeartand expect that the act should be adhered to. The old maxim that ignorance of the law is no defence, Mr. Speaker, eveeybody knows that that too is a legal fiction. Ignorance cannot be allowed to be a defence or eveeybody would be pleading ignorance of the law. A person does not know one per cent of the law. Even a lawyer does not know one per cent of the law but he cannot plead ignorance of the law. Sir; if this act is not passed this session, 1130

February 20, 1974, Tape 346, Page 1 -- apb if it is put off until next session as is intimated by the Minister of Finance, then, Sir, ignorance of"the law will be no fiction it will be a reality and we will have a complete fiasco during the next provincial election. You will have officials, managers and people involved in elections who will have very little idea as to what they are doing. People will be ignorantly and by ignorantly I mean unknowingly, they will be infracting the law, breaking the law because some people will be doing things as they had done them beforfo, innocently break~ng the law.

Let us leave enough le~d time between the time that this act is passed, some such act as this is passed, let us leave enough lead time.between that and the next provincial election so that political parties can geared up to it. Even now, the Liberal Party, I know because my wife is on the executive, the national executive, the Federal Liberal Party is now holding massive meetings all over the nation trying to make sure that their officials, their managers, their workers know exactly what is provided for in this legislation.

To do otherwise, Sir, would be disastrous to any legislation and a lot of innocent people would suffer. For the good of the province, for the good of the political parties in the province, let us get

an act passed during this session of the House and then spend the next number of ,acmths before the next election making sure that all the officials of various parties are fully familiar with a good, strong, controlling piece of legislation. Then I think, Sir, that the people of this province will benefit, I think the political parties of the province will benefit and certainly, Sir, if we can get rid of this insidious practice of private donations, anonymous donations made to political parties who are accountable to nobody, with people - MR. DOODY: It sounds like the well is drying up. MR.

W,N,ROWE: We are, what is it? $17 million in debt? What did the leader say? MR. DOODY: Give or take a few. 1131

February 20, 1974, Tape 346, Page 2 -- apb MR. ~-AR.SH>.LL: Five hundred thousand. MR. W.N.ROWE: Five hundred thousand dollars in debt. Oh! ''Witch-Hunt Willie"remembers it, Mr. Speaker, he must be one of the creditors. Do not tell me he is going to start issuing writs} He is going to start issuing writs, Mr. Speaker, the same kind of a writ,(it would be unkind to say that I suppose) any minister who can stand up in this House and talk about the rights of tenants, Mr.

Speaker, and then next day as a member of the government appear before the rent control board and start giving the rent control board loopholes as to how a landlord can avoid the application of the act - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Order! Order! MR, SPEAKER (Stagg): Order please! MR. W.N.ROWE: What is the problem? MR.SPEAKER: The honourable member is straying from the point now. MR. W.N.ROWE: Provoked into it by "Witch-Hunt Willy," Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Stagg): I would advise the honourable member to avoid name calling. MR. W.N.ROWE: The . opprobrious term. I will deal with that, Mr.

Speaker during the Throne Speech debate, I hope. This is the worst example of that type that has been seen for some time. Anyway, Sir, let me bring it to a close by saying that if , anybody rises in this Rouse and says; "What! The government, public money to be used to support election campaigns? Unheard of." As I suspect, my friend across the way will do, perhaps, maybe, I do not know, but I suspect ••• AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. W.N.ROWE: Well, Sir, his mind is reactionary enough in politics to suggest that kind of an absurd notion. To say; "What!

Public funds be used for election expenses of candidates?" When he should realize now that he has been in his government for some time that whoever contributes massive amounts of money, Sir, especially corporations, who contribute massive amounts of money to political parties do so with the heartfelt motive and idea that sooner or later 1132

February 20, 1974, Tape 346, Page 3 -- apb they will get that money back from the government if it be successful. Where does the government get the money for these corporations? For any contracts that might be awarded? The public supplies it, Sir.

I say that if the public is going to supply money for elections in any event, directly or indirectly, let us do it openly and aboveboard.' I am sure that in the long run as well, Sir, that k.ind of a contribution will be much less on the public purse · than the other kind of-: well, not under the table, I mean there is nothing illegal about it - it is just something that is done anonymously and nobody knows anything about it. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for White Bay South has approximately four minutes. MR. W.N.ROWE: Oh! What can I say, Mr. Speaker? Let me see.

Maybe if I look at the House Leader I can be stimulated into something. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. W.N.ROWE: The undertaker. The mortuary, Mr. Speaker. The muttering mortuary. AN HON. MEMBER: Very useful though. MR. W.N.ROWE: He would be too expensive I think, Mr. Speaker. It would have to be a pauper's funeral. Mr. Speaker, let me conclude with _that plea to members of the ~ouse,to bring it out in the open, let us have legislation which does control election financing . and public support of candidates in elections.

Bring it out into the open, have complete disclosure and I think that all political parties will be better off as a result. I also think that certainly the public and this province will be much better off as a result. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR, SPEAKER: The honourable the Minister without Portfolio: MR. W.W.MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, we have listened.for about forty or fifty minutes, since we came in this afternoon - I suppose if speech~s were animated objects I.do not know whether you could call it ·a bitter pill or bitter "Bill," In any event, Your Honour, the nature and the bleat of the ramarks by the member for White Bay South, as for the member for White Bay North, were rather, I think, empty. He 1133

February 20, 1974, Tape 346, Page 4 -- apb spent most of his time talking about the Minister of Finance's reaction, dwelled incessantly on the fact that they may or they may not introduce legislation with respect to election campaigns. The fact of the matter is that the Premier had already announced that we were looking into this. MR. W.N.ROWE: But are the administration going to? MR. MARSHALL: Yes we are going to. Certainly we are going to. MR. SPEAKER: (Stagg): Order please! MR. MARSHALL: The Premier has already announced that we are going to.

The honourable Minister of Finance, when he was talking and he was misinterpreted said that we were looking into it. It may or lllilY not be in in this session of the House but he left no doubt that this is what we were going to do. We do have other things to occupy our time.

We had a billion dollar debt which we inherited, we have forest management policies which we have to formulate, we have housing policies to formulate and by the time the next election comes, for the first time in the history of Newfoundland, it will be run on a much different basis than those elections that were called by previous governments. The trouble with the opposition, Mr. Speaker, - you know, I used to think that the opposition, the members of the opposition were attempting to paint us as being the same as themselves but I really do not believe that they are really that way motivated. I really do not.

I do not think they can help themselves. I do not think that they can imagine, they can possible imagine that the affairs of the country are carried on in any manner other than the manner in which they carried it on when they were there or that they had somebody else carry it on for them, The member for St. John's North . when he introduced this resolution, introduced it for the purpose of getting the views of this House~ I think he made an admirable speech when he introduced it in such concepts as he had, as bubble pipes with member~ faces on them and thereby members foaming at the mouth.

I do not think that 1134

February 20, 1974, Tape 346, Page 5 -- apb that particular type of word picture should be lost,and should be repeated again and again in the chamber because I would certainly like to see one of the honourable member of Bell Island. I have been off smoking for two or three years but if I had such a pipe with the honourable member for Bell Island's countenance on it1 I think I would go back to the tobacco. MR. OTTENHEIMF.R: I have a pipe but no countenance. MR. MARSHALL: In any event, the member for St. John's North posed this .for the purpose of getting certain views.

I would s'ay that the honourable member with most people in this House and indeed the public would be very, very disappointed with the type of· contribution that has come from the other side. Let me say.first, Sir, that there are two distinct aspects and before I go on I would like to remind the House that I am not speaking to the amendment and,of course, maybe there will be further amendments and we will all have an opportunity to speak again and again and again to the main motion.

With respect to this question there are two distinct aspects ; One is the control and regulation of expenses and the other relates to public financing of elections. With the first I wholeheartedly agree with respect to the control of expenditures, because I feel that far too much money has been spent in times past on campaigns.

I had a little experience with campaigns during the days of the Progressive Conservative Party and particularly during the days when it was very hard to get people to even attend a meeting of the Progressive Conservative Party for fear that one of the honourable members here opposite or their previous colleagues or the agents for their previous colleagues might be spying upon them. In any event, I have long felt that thPre has been too much money spent on campaigns.

This party came to pouer principally through the work of volunteers throughout the country who felt that a previous administration had to go because of the nature of its performance or because of its arrogance or because it had been there too long or what have you, 1135

February 20, 1974 Tape 347 PK - 1 and the pendulU1:1 will swing full cycle one of these days. There will be volunte~rs although there are very few of them around and you can understand why after looking at the members on the other side. There will be volunteers on the other side who will work just as assiduously to change the government, say government should and must change. I think myself personally, Mr. Speaker, that there is too much of a relationship, I think the Liberal Leadership Convention that we have heard so much about has left an indelible scar really in this area upon this province.

Largesse ~ere spent durinp, the Liberal Leadership Convention,in the organization by the Liberal Party at the time. Short~y thereafter the Progressive Conservative Party also had a leadership convention, I happened to know that the budget of the Progressive Conservative Convention was approximately three and one­ half per cent of the total budget of the Liberal Party. Those two conventions were really comparable in their own way to election campaigns. There is no need.

It . is an insult to the people of the province, it is an insult to the private person supporting a party, ~tis an insult to everybody to presume that largesse. of funds slas~ed out from all quarters are going to result in the election of a person or the victory of a party. So I think there is far too much emphasis on and there is far, far too much money spent in this country on election campaigns.

For that reason I would wholeheartedly support and endorse any action to limit the amount of contribution, to 1:1,mit the amount of expenses of a political party, to explore the disclosure of amounts and to do all things relevant for the purpose of holding down expenses. Before we leave that topic I think it is well also to point out that there are more factors involved than just the politicans concerned and the party workers with respect to the limitation of amount spent.

For instance, the only industries in the past few years that we have had really were the election campaigns with the lar~e funds that were spewed out, particularly on the other side. I will r,et to their funds in a few moments or get to their lack of funds. 1136

February 20, 1974 Tape 347 PK - 2 MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the honourable member a question. MR. MARSHALL: 1 would be delighted to ·receive a question from the honourable Member for Labrador North? MR. WOODWARD : 1 am very curious, Mr. Speaker, the little boxes sitting on the corner, 1 wonder if he would tell us what is in the boxes? MR. MARSHALL: It is for my protection.I was afraid, Mr.

Speaker, in case the attitude of the honourable Member for White Bay South and the known attitude of the Hon. the Leader of the Opposition translated itself, as at one time when 1 was speaking such things did translate themselves into physical reactions, 1 thought 1 might like to have something to be able to pro~ect myself. I will guarantee you, I do not think . I will have to use it against the honourable member for Labrador North. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, this question is going to involve more people than political parties who are condemned by it.

For example, during election campaigns I understand and I believe, I believe it is true that various media charged more than normal for their advertising campaigns. If the news media which talks about regulating contributions and expenses,as they do,want to talk about it and want to talk about it sincerely, the question comes up why do political parties have to pay more for advertising during these periods of time? The reason they have to pay more is because these people who like to pontificate from time to time against politicans, love to get on the gravey train as well as anyone else.

So these people are going to have to subdue the public desire for money in some way. The same thing with respect to meeting halls. You go out around the country anywhere and try and get a meeting hall during an election campaign, you do not pay twice as much or three or four or five or six times as much, you can pay many more times than that in order to do it. The people concerned who own these halls, whatever organizatiort they may belong to and they are all the same, if they w~nt to assist us in the limiting of the amounts spend could also take stock of their own 1137

February 20, 1974 Tape 347 PK - 3 houses or certainly of their own halls. I also think that it is very, very necessary to regulate the time for television and radio broadcasting. I mean how stupid is it when an election is called the organizers of political parties they run off and the first thing they have to do is to see .who can get the most and the prime time. This has to be regulated. Also we have to regulate, which I think as well, I think we have to regulate any possibility and prevent any individual me111her or any individual candidate collecting on .his own behalf. Now, }fr.

Speaker, there are many other areas, the payment of poll workers, for instance, and many other items. There are many areas in the bill, i~ the federal bill, for the control of election expenses that I can wholeheartedly endorse. I think that many members on this side of the House can wholeheartedly endorse them. Certainly there is need for controls. There is no more outward indication or manifestation of the need for control beyond the revelation, ·the startling revelation by the Hon. the Leader of the Opposition to the effect that the Liberal Party owes $500,000 with respect to two campaigns.

Now if they- owe $500,000 one can only conjecture how much they actually spent. They did not run their campaigns completely on credit. AN HON. ME~IBER: Inaudible. MR. MARSHALL: Doubtless. I have no doubt that these two campaigns cost the Liberal P<'lrty many, many hundreds of thousands of dollars. The two final campaigns that the Leader of the Opposition wishes to absolve him~elf from - AN HON. MEMBER: And he will deal with his Leaders .hip Convention that is coming up in the fall as to whether or not they are going to allow him to absolve himself from the previous. Now I turn, Mr.

Speaker, to the other question,! think the much more important question of public financing of election campaigns. Now quite frankly I have so~e very grave reservations about the wisdom of public financing of our election campaigns. The honourable member for 1138 .

February 20, 1974 Tape 347 PK - 4 St. John's North . and I are good friends and have been for years, he brought this resolution before the House for the purpose of debate and private member's day is a time when all individual members can express their views and so I am going to take this opportunity to do so. First of all, if we were in a state of Utopia or even in the Province of Alberta or even the federal government with its large taxing power, the situation might be different. Mr.

Speaker, I do not think that Newfoundland can afford, I very much doubt whether we can afford in this province to provide for the public financing of election campaigns. The figures that were given and the figures that have been bandied about this House in the past couple of days are that .both parties would need about $500,000. One already I point out owes $500,000 so it is more like $1 million, $1.5 million or $2· million or it will get up to $3 million. What is the purpose of it? Why do you want it? Why do you want public financing? The purpose of it, Mr.

Speaker, is to keep governments honest, to restrict political patronage, to restrict the political payoff. I say, Mr. Speaker, that the people of Nevfoundland or the people of any province should not have to pay $500,000 or $1 million or $2 million in order to keep their political institutions honest. It is utterly and absolutely to my mind foreign and I do not think that we should do it. Furthermore, I doubt whether we 1139

February 20. 1974 Tape no, 348 Cdn really legislate with respect to the public financing of caapaigns. No doubt the desperate politicians(We have seen desperate politicians in the past. We will not mention names but we ~ave seen them.) facing defeat will once again pull out all stops despite the public financing. will go along to the supporters and money will be put into their hands. We will see the Chateau Gai next time sprouting from the Confederation Building maybe. We will see all sorts of largess and abuses. Page 1 - 11W Mr. Speaker. we already have laws to protect ourselves against this type of abuse.

It is a criminal offence to bribe a public_official. to offer a bribe,and there the protection of the public is to those who are unwise enough not to heed it. This is available to them and will be given. I think it will be abused. It will also give advantages to certain politicians,to those who perhaps have more resources than other politicians. They-can put money into their campaign insofar as money makes any real difference to a campaig. Really• when the time has come or when it is time for a change.

I firmly believe that it is going to come regardless - not completely regardless of the amount of money but I think the amount of money is very much overcome. Some people say that it is going to give an advantage to minority parties. I do not believe so. I beljeve it is all the other way around. The formulas that have been quoted to us by the Quebec and Federal Government require the r.andidate to poll a certain amount of the votes before they are entitled to share in the public expenses. This is going to be rather hard for a smaller party. a third group to be dble to poll this amount and to get off their feet.

MR. WOODWARD: You are not picking on the Member for Labrador South. are you? MR. MARSHALL: No, I am not picking on the honourable member. I am 1140

February 20, 1974 Tape no. 348 Page 2 not even thinking of the Member for Labrador South really in this. I am thinking of minor parties, splinter parties, the type of party that the once great Liberal Party has now so obviously become. This is one of the reasons, Mr.

Speaker, which leads me into the next - this is why, I have wondered, I have sat here with amazement and wondered how the Liberal Party can now turn around and offer and propagate and urge us to adopt this great social piece of legislation, I think the answer comes in the situation or the situation in the Liberal Party as revealed by the Leader of the Opposition when he was speaking on this matter, where be said that they now owe $500,000. Perhaps they owe some more, I do not know. I wonder whether the great desire now - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. MARSHALL: You could. You could.

I wonder whether the great desire, Mr. Speaker, is a great desire to reform electoral law or whether or not it is a desire for the public to take them off the hook, Is this the real reason behind them now advocating the public contribution to election campaigns, that the taxpayer pay for their campaigns? All of a sudden they want the taxpayer to pay for their campaigns and I wonder why, The only reason I can think of is the $500,000 professed debt by the Liberal Party right now, Mr.

Speaker, everybody has said from time to time that Newfoundlanders are too green to burn but I do not think anybody has yet said that they are so green they can be burnt . twice. Mr. Speaker 1 you cannot legislate in this area. I do not think it i_s necessary. The reason for people who sincerely advocate public financing is fear of corruption. They are afraid of the rewards to be given to people who support the political party which is in power, I think that this can be achieved - it does not merit any one to get up and just say I am against it, without giving 1141

February 20, 1974 Tape no. 348 Page 3 an alternative. Certainly, there is no doubt in anybody's ind that these situations have existed in the past. The great cynics of our day feel that they exist in this government but tbi• government have not been in for twenty-one years and if it ever gets to the stage, as it did two years ago, I hope ve are put out long before. AH BON. MEMBER: Do not worry. MR. MARSHALL: It did and has existed in the past, not only in Newfoundland but in all areas of Western Democracy.

I feel that the remedy is not the public financing of expenses but to some extent it might be if you bad the money to do it. - I feel that you have to remove the possibility of giving these revana to the people who make political donations. I really thiDk that that is the answer. The answer to it is then to have full open dealings between the government and the private sector, such as the public opening of tenders that this government have already indicated. It put it into practice when it c~ into power. In the Speech from the Throne it was announced that the government were to bring in

an act with respect to the provision for public opening of tenders and public tenders in this province, the same aa they have in the Government of Canada, the same as they have in most of the provinces of Canada, instead of the previous system that was allowed to exist. That is your remedy, Hr. Speaker.

If you re1110ve the possibility of the reward to the political contributor, if you make it completely open with public opening of tenders, i.e., if you do as we have done last year, amended the Revenue and Audit Act to provide that no borrowings of money could take place without the approval of the Legislature and if-you generally make the dealings open and above board in public ao that the public could see it, so that the public could 1142 I •

February 20. 1974 Tape no. 348 Page 4 see when a contract was awarded that it was awarded to the lowest bidder or if it were not awarded to the lowest bidder, that the government have to get up to the people whom it represents and explain why it was not given to the lowest bidder. That is the way you stop your patronage, That is the way you stop your abuses. Mr. Speaker, another way it could be done along these lines is the enactment of

an act allowing the voiding of contracts where they have been assigned to third parties from persons who h~ve obtained them by using political influence while in public office.

Now this is an area which we have looked into, which we hope to bring in legislation for~ Just as the Minister of Finance said,that we may or we may not bring in it this session, we have been looking into it for a long period of time, We are entwining it and studying it in relation to its affect upon contractual law and contractual obligations because it is a new type of pioneer legislation, the type they have really in some areas, some States of the United States, Mr. Speaker, we indicated last year that we would do this type of thing.

We are·still studying it and just as we studied the forestry policy of this government and after fully studying it are bringing in measures, eventually we will bring in measures of this nature. Rome was not built in a day, Mr. Speaker. I think it is most unfair. We get up and say that we are looking into these things and we indicate our intentions; for th~se words to be given which we give in this public House to be doubted. No, Mr. Speaker, the answer to it as far as I am concerned, I myself am not too enthusiastic about public money; the taxpayers' money, th~ money of Mra, Smith and Mr.

Jones going into the financing of election campaigns of the .~iberal Party 1143

February 20, 1974 Tape no. 348 Page 5 or the Progressive Conservative Party or the New Democratic Party or any party. Maybe we could afford a certain amount of this if we were a wealthy province like Alberta, if we had the f!lource of money like they have in the f'edeTal government or if we were in a more affluent society than we are. 1 do not think we can afford the lu]!:ury neither do I think it is going to cure t:he evil. which the proponents of it attempt sincerely to attempt to get over, and that is the poltical pay-off and political patronage. Mr. S.peaker 1 the way in which you overcome that in 1IIY ·opinion is the institution of a pub.lie tendering system, open government deals 1144

... February 20, 1974 Tape No. 349 l,M - 1 dealings · and generally letting the public know exactly what is going on.

I would not like to see, and I have no doubt, there is no doubt in my mind that the advocation on the other side for the public chest to stand the expenses for the people standing in election is no more than a desire of getting the people of Newfoundland to take the Liberal Party off the hook for the gigantic indebtedness tl- .. t have incurred for the purpose of having three dimentional I pictures of candidates behind fish barrels and what have you and for other such nonsense th<1-t went on unsuccessfully in previous days. I think we have got to cons.ider all aspects of this resolution.

I do not really think on looking it over that the honourable member for St. John's North means it as mandatory but he means it from the point of view of the government are considering the matters and the government is and has been considering these things. So . in conclusion, I will not continue on for an hour and a-half although I could with the empty words like the ones that were uttered on the other side. There seems to be a mania in this House that if you are allowed to speak for an hour and a-half,you speak for an hour and a-half whether you have anything to say or whether you do not have anything to say.

But I will just say in conclusion that first of all I am for the regulation of eJq>enses, the regulation of cont~ibutions, I am all for it, the strictest law that there possibly can . be, yes and even disclosure but I do not believe, Mr. Speaker, that we are going to remedy the evil that we wish to by providing for public financing of election campaigns.

I think there is another and better way to do it and I do not think the people of this province, who are already overburdened with debt,"who are overburdened and needy, you canrt'Ot furnish the needs in many areas such as housing, many areas such as education, health and what have you where we are striving every da~, I do not think the peopie of Newfoundland will put up with, nor should they put up with, Mr. Speaker, in the stage of our economy, with the public paying into political parties, monies to finance election campaigns. There is another way of doing it and certainly 1145

February 20, 1974 Tape No. 349 NM - 2 I think that they should rise up in righteous indignation, particularly when they realize that the reason that the honourable members opposite are advocating it is,as opposed to the sincere attempt by all of the members on this side,to tear up our political system, that the real reason for advocating it is to repay that horrendous, scandalous debt of the Liberal Party,when it attempted for the sixth or seventh time to purchase the good will, unsuccessfully as it was but to purchase the good will of the people of this province.

Now they want to purchase the good will of the people of this province with their own money. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bonavista South. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak on this amendment as proposed by the honourable member for White Bay North. It seems to me that whoever drew up this amendment is apparently clueless about the issue. For example; "This House urges and requests this government to implement its oft repeated promises to the public by introducing legislation,within the next thirty days, to govern and control the financing of election expenses." So far so good.

Then they go on to say; "Such lP-gislation to be similar in content to legislation adopted by the House of Commons." Mr. Speaker, we are not able to pass legislation in this House of Assembly similar to what has already been passed in the House of Commons. For example, two major reason, this House of Assembly has no jurisdiction, has no control whatsoever over the deductions with regards to federal income tax on contributions made to political parties, none whatsoever. That is a major part of the Bill C203, passed by the House of Commons.

Number two, the other mcjor factor is that this House of Assembly cannot direct or demand of private radio stations, private television stations, to grant free political broadcast to any political party. We have no jurisdiction over the Canadian Radio and Television Commission. We have none. So how can we pass official lep,islation similar to wh;i.t has already been passed in the House of Commons, because 1146

Februnry 20, 1974 Tape No. 349 NM - 3 these are the two major points on Bill C203, the two major points, where they are regulating and controlling the Canadian Radio and Television Commission with reP,ard to broadcasting and where the 1147

February 20, 1974 Tape no. 350 Page 1 - MW contributions made to a party can be tax deductable. Mr. Speaker, in my beginning comments I would like to say again that this amendment was drafted by somebody on the opposite side of the House of Assembly who was clueless about the issues. He should be a.sh~d. with me. Mr. Speaker, that is not the major contentious point Here we are,in 1974, with a bill be.fore the House of Assembly, introduced by a private member. It is a serious issue. It is a serious matter. There are many serious questions which have to be answered. Yet the Hon.

Leader of the Opposition wants action within thirty days! In thirty days he wants the legislation brought before the House, passed and made law, without any looking into of the questions, the many numerous questions which remain unanswered. There is one very important question with regard to public financing: What is it going to cost the taxpayers of this province? That is the one big important question. Oh no, disregard that! Do not mind what it costs the taxpayers. We want action within thirty days. Mr.

Speaker• the same honourable gentleman who introduced this amendment never mentioned the issue in this province, never cared to even have a slight thought in that direction until 1972, June , 1972, out at some public meeting in Buchans. June 1972, the Libera~ Party finds itself in opposition, finds itself broke with regard to funds. They want to press upon the government to bring in legislation which will make public financing, contol all the contributions to the parties so as to make their chances better to get in in the oext election. It is unbelievable! It is unbelievable!

When th~t same honourable gentleman sat on this side of the House as a private member, when the Hon. Member for St. John's, in 1969, brought in a private resolution asking for the same thing, he was 1148

February 20, 1974 Tape no. 350 Page 2 . sr.orned, he was laughed at, he was ridiculous, he was stupid, he was kicked out of the House of Assembly. The same honourable gent'lemen from White Bay North and White Bay South and Bell Island .and Fogo sat in this Assembly and watched the spectacle of the honourable Premier of the day at that time scorn the issue, it was ridiculous, it was stupid, it was naive. The honourable gentlemen sat over here and did not even care to speak on the issue. What a comparison today, Mr. Speaker! What a comparison!

We had a private member bring in a resolution and we had the government supporting the resolution, supporting it in principle. What a comparison with the previous government and the attitudes of the previous government. Mr. Speaker, it is hypocrisy at its very height. That is what it is; hypocrisy at its very height. The lion. Leader of the Opposition in speaking on this amendment stressed the fact that we should not go back to the past. Oh no: Let us forget the past. The past is gone. We are living in the present. We look forward to the future. Forget the past.

The same honourable gentleman stood in the House of Assembly for one full hour and talked about the Hermitage by-election. Mr. Speaker, the Hermitage by-election is in the past. I would like to go back a little further than the Hermitage by-election. I would like to go back to when first I got involved with politics in 1971. That is not too far back, it is in my ~ay. It is when we saw the government lash out government funds tq get party candidates elected, wasted money, hundreds of thousands, even millions. The procramme was co-ordinated from the former Premier's office. I tMnk it was a Mr.- I forget his name.

He was working as an assistant to the Premier. He was a civil servant. AN HON. MEMBER: Garry Brownrigg. MR. MORGAN: Hr. Garry Brownrigg, that is he. It is Mr. Garry Brownrigg. 1149

February 20, 1974 - Tape no . 350 Page 3 He was co-Qrdinating this flush fund. He was dishing out hundreds of thousands of dollars $20,000 here for recreation, irrespective . ..~~ of whether a recreation committee formed or not, irrespective of whether artesian wells were needed here or not. Out in Bonavista South, i.e., they dished it out here and dished it out there, hundreds of thousands of dollars - .government funds~ 'What a prime example of 1;11isuse of funds d.uring election 1150

February 20, 1974 Tape No. 351 NM - 1 campaigns. We are going to chanp,c that. The first day of the opening of this session, the very first day, the Premier stood in this honourable Assembly and brour,ht up the issue that this governmP-nt was going to consider the possibility of bringing in reforms in regards to election campaign expenses and the controlling of these expenditures on election campaigns. The Premier mentioned this. It was not just the private member from St. John's North. The Premier didl MR. WM. ROWE: Inaudible. MR. MORGAN: It was not the opposition.

Now the opposition is wanting action within thirty days. You have slush funds, government funds, use of government facilities, whether it is done now or done then, I am one individual strongly against it, strongly opposed to it. It is wrong. It was blatantly abused in the past. If there is one major thing in the past that annoyed me, it was not just the patronage with regards to the Liberal Party supporters and giving them contracts or donating large donations to the Liberal Party. We have some big fat cat companies in St. John's and around Newfoundland.

I will c<1ll them fat cat companies, who got fat and rich because the cost-plus contracts dished out by the former administration, dished out because of the donations they dished in during the campaip,ns. That has got to end. That has got to end. Forget that. Mr.

Speaker, let us get away from these contracts and these cost plus contracts and look at the patronage, the blatant patronage where we had a Civil Service Commission in this province for so many years, a Civil Service Comruissjon consisting of Liberal politicians and that to me has knawed at me for a long time, because it did not just mean that the Liberals were uringing in politicians.and appointing political appointees normally only last as lonr, as the government last, but this Ci.vi! Scrvicr. CoJ11mission had to be partisan. In my view they were partisan. They were appolnted by a former Premier because 1151

February 20, 1974 Tape No. 351 NM - 2 they were his followers. They were his politicians, defeated politicians, has-beens. A.~ HON. HE1BER: Inaudible. MR. MORGA.~: They were set up to do what? They were obviously partisan. So over a period of years, Mr. Speaker, we had a situation where many of the permanent jobs today that exist in this Civil Service Commission, I believe in political appointees, political appointees are different from the Civil Service. The Civil Service have permanent positions, government jobs.

There is simply no reason why a position in government, through the Civil Service Commission, that that position should be filled simply because of political patronage. They should be under qualifications and nothing else. Over the past years we have had a situation where the majority of these jobs, I would say the majority of them, especially just before elections, the year of elections, if you want a job, go down and see Mr. Jones, Mr, Robe.rt son. "Go down and see my friends." This is the attitude of the former ministers of government.

"Go down and see my friends, the Civil Service Commission, they will look after you." MR. NEARY: Now where is the character assassination? MR. MORGAN: It is not character assassination. It is facts. Mr. Robertson was a defeated Liberal cantlirlate. I am not charging he is partisan. I am saying he was a partisan politician. MR.. NEARY: Say it out. Say it out. ~m.. MORGAN: I am saying it right now. He is a partisan politician. I will say it in the House of Assembly. Mr, Speaker, Mr. Jones, the Chairman was a partisan politician. and the other member of the Civil Service Commission is a partisan politician.

What I am saying is that it is obvious to me, as a politician or as a member of th~ House of Assembly or as a man or the general public, that because we have this Civil Service Commission, which 1152

February 20, 1974 Tape No. 351 consists of partisan politi.cians, that there obviously has to be some partisan views on their point. AN HON. MEMBER: Mr. Clean. MR. NEARY: Innuendoes. NM - 3 MR. MORGAN: I am saying today that that partisan commission was there for the main reason of helping the Liberal Party, 1153

February 20, 1974. Tape 352 RH - l and none but your Liberal Party followers to get jobs 1 and that to me is entirely wrong. The Civil Service Commission and the Civil Service itself should consist of individuals who are there because of their qualifications and there to do a job in a certain position, for no other reason. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a member when speaking to an amend- ment is required to be strictly relevant. Now, the amendment says that this House should request the Government to introduce legislation similar to the bill,

an act by the Parliament of Canada. Now, what the honourable member is going on about now has no relevancy whatsoever to that amendment. MR.. MORGAN: Hr. Speaker, on that point of order, Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, on a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I am speaking, showing the relationship of patronage and the results of people making and helping in regards of donations to political campaigns. MR.

NEARY: May I speak on that point of order, Sir1 The honourable member, in my opinion, Sir, is not relevant to the amendment that is being proposed by the Leader of the Opposition and it is the worse example of character assinntion that I have ever seen in this House, Sir. HR. SPEAKER: Order, rlease! As I mentioned earlier today, I think the rule of relevancy is perhaps a little difficult to rule on. I feel the honourable member for Bonavista South perhaps was strained a little from the relevant part of this amendment. I would advise him to be a little more cautious in the future. MR. HORGAN: Thank you, Mr.

Sp_eaker. That kind of patronage, Mr. Speaker, is going to end. It has already ended because this Government has brought in legislation. For a public service commission is going to consist of not politicans, not partisan individuals. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Maybe the honourable 1154

February 20, 1974. Tape 352 . RH - 2 member does not understand Your Ho~our's ruling or something. The amendment before the House, Sir, concerns the introduction by this Covernment of legislation similar to that enacted in the House of Commons in Ottawa. It has nothing to do with Civil Service Commissions. It has nothing to do with political appointments, Mr. Speaker. The member is not being relevant. Now, when Your Honour drew me to order for not being relevant, I clued up what I had to say and went into relevant sections.

I admit I was out of order but when I was drawn to order, I gave up that line of argument, Sir. Now, I ask that the same thing be done with the honourable member for Bonavista South. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I request the honourable member from Bonavista South to be a little more relevant in his debate. MR. MORGAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I am not just talking about the relevance between the legislation that we are talking about proposing in this House of Assembly and what has already been passed in Ottawa, I am talking about the governing and controlling financing of election campaigns and election expenses. That is the amendment. The amendment reads - Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman from White Bay South apparently is so stupid he cannot understand the amendment. I will read it for him, Mr.

Speaker: 0 This House urges and requests the Government to implement its off repeated promises to the public by introducing legislation within thirty days to govern and control the financing of election expenses." That is part of the amend­ ment. Mr. Speaker, if I am going to speak about election expenses, we have to talk about the different donations and different support given to different parties.

I am talking about the support t~at was given to the previous government, to the previous Liberal Party, I say previous Liberal .Party because I am doubtful today whether there is one existing; that these donations that were made and contributions, there had to be some kind of a p~yoff and the payoff was made in the past by means of 1155

February 20, 1974. Tape 352 RH - 3 . getting jobs for them in government, by means of getting cost-plus contracts,,and that is the kind of thing that we have got to end in this Province. We have got to end that. We have now got a Public Service Commission that will end one source of patronage. We have now got a public tendering system which is going to end the cost-plus contracts. That is this Government doing this, It was not done by the previous Government. All we hear from the Opposition is the height of hypocrisy. A..~ l!O~OURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

HORGAN: The honourable member for Hermitage - he knows what it is like to campaign, especially slanderous campaigns on open lines, He has not spoken in the House yet. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, when the honourable the Leader of the Opposition introduced the amendment, he talked about Hermitage, He talked ahout Hermitage for a full hour in the House of Assembly, all was Hermitage, nothing passed Hermitage, You know, I listened to an open line progranme this morning and apparently talking about election campair,n expenses and apparently this one fellow down in Hermita~e. he was quite upset becam .:e the bill left with him from the Liberal Party in the laRt campaign in Hermitage, in the by-election,was not being paid and he could not get any results in the Liberal Party so he made his issue public.

He brought the issue .forward on an open line show 1156

Tape 353 PK - l and then one honourable gentleman on the opposite side of the House of Assemhly, the Hon. Hember for Bell Island, he P,ave the imr>ression why pay this chap ~fr. Godwin, why lay him ,he is a Tory? So what? We owe the Bill, why pay him? He is a Tory, he supported the Tory Party. Mr. Speaker, the attitude of the Liberal Party, oh, forget the bills, we will not pay the Tories, we will pay our own friends. Oh! Hr. Speaker, - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MORGAN:· The Hon. the Member for White Bay North menti-0ned when he spoke in this debate, he did not know what went on in his party in the past.

He did not know. In fact I think I will quote him verbatim. He did not know what went on in the past. "I know no more about the activities of the past than any member of this House of Assembly or any member of the public." If honourabJe members opposite wish to bring up, Sir, they could probably although they would not embarrass me, not embarrass anyone of my colleagues. Mr. Speaker, this kind of sanctimonious attitude is not going to, ' 1 I do not know anything about the past." That same honourable gentleman was appointed in 1964 as a parliamentary assistant to the Premier for the Province.

In 1966 he became a member of this Assembly. He went on from there to become a minister of the Crown. He sat there from 1964 to 1974 and he did not know what went on in his party. P.e did not know what went on. He did not know anything about these slush funds. He did not know anything about those large donations coming in from those companies around St. John's, those Liberal Party supporters who were getting rich fast by the government giving them cost --plus contracts. Oh, no, Mr. Speaker, he was there in government but he did not know this was going on. What kind of a sanctimonious attitude is that? Mr.

Speaker, maybe it is bad to go back into the past, maybe it is but if we ·are going to go back •so far in the past let us go back far enough to make the points relevant. Then, Mr. Spe;iker, when we heard from the honourable the Member for White Bay South, the same honourable gentleman 1157

February 20, 1974 Tape 353 PK - 2 who in 1969 at a convention, I think it was the Liberal Leadership Convention, that same honourable gentleman on the floor of the Assembly quoted by the "Evening Telegram" Monday, Novermber 3, 1969; "The Hon. William Rowe, Minister of Community and Social Development said, 'It is political naivety to divulge infonn.ntion concerning the funds of private organizations, such as the Liberal Party, especially to the public and to the Opposition Party.' " AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR, MORGAN: That was in 1969, Mr. Speaker.

The hypocrisy of the individual to stand in this Assembly and to say, "We want action in thirty days." Oh, the hypocrisy! Mr. Sp~aker, we are a government that takes the action. AN RON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the hypocrisy is the height of hypocrisy the way these members are demanding the government to take action on this legislation. I know as a government member, as a government backbencher, that this government is going to consider taking action this year. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR, MORGAN: It i_s going to take action.

The fact that a private member for St. John's North brought the resolution to the floor is a good example that backbenchers in this government are taking

part in government. It is a good example. Not like the past, Mr. Speaker, when a backbencher would be told to shut up and sit down. 1158

February 20, 1974, Tape 354, Page 1 -- apb MR. MORGAN: Shut up and sit down! Oh no, we have a different government today, Mr. Speaker. Getting on to the aspect of that amendment asking that the legislation be similar to the - along the lines of the federal government legislation, I think it is Bill C-202. Mr. Speaker, as I mentioned in the opening of my remarks,we cannot control and regulate radio broadcasting, television broadcasting in this province. I certainly think we should because we have situations today in this province where we have the media being abused. Abused!

That is right, because we have a partisan programme, for example, on radio station C.J.O.N. known as "John Nolan's Hotline." It is a partisan prograrome, it is partisan day in and day out. MR. NEARY: Character assassination. MR. MORGAN: It is not character - it. is facts. It is facts. MR. NEARY: Is this relevant, Mr. Speaerk, or is this character assassination by the civil rights fighter of this province? Supposedly. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

I am showing the relevance with regard to controlling the broadcasting and free political broadcasting with regard to election campaigns etc. in the province. MR. NEARY: May we have a ruling, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: (Stag g): I think the honourable member is in order. MR. MORGAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If we could control the media, if we could direct the media to; "Look,you do not broadcast that kind of a programme, public affairs - " It is called a public affairs programme.

We have one in Central Newfoundland called; "Mike's Openline Show" and that programme is continuously attacking the Progressive Conservative Party. Not the government, the party. The party. There is a difference in having the media attacking government because normally the media wants to attack the establishment. That i~ normal. That is normal. That is normal. ~_!ll:..._~001~\i_~RD: (Inaudible) ~~- MOllGAN: If the honourable member for Labrador North wants to 1159

February 20, 1974, Tape 354, Page 2 -- apb get into debate let him stand when the time comes. Mr. Speaker, if we are going to ~ if we can regulate the media we should do it now, because I am sick and tired of these openline show programmes being used as a source of - being vindictive toward the government and where we luwe a former Dlinister of the previous administration ••• AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER (Stagg): Order please! The honourable member should not be interrupting.

When the honourable member is speaking he has quite often asked for the protection of the House to prevent other members from interrupting him. I ask that he observe that rule himself.· MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the point I am getting at I will get back to it again is that if we are going to have these continuous campaigns going on in the province week after week, month after month - what we really have, we have the Liberals campaigning through the media each and every day.

I would still have the same point of view if there were a programme on V~O,C.M. or C.B.C. or any other media in the province campaigning for our party continuously. It would still be wrong. It would be wrong. MR. W.N.ROWE: Would the honourable member permit a question? MR. MORGAN: Put it on the Order Paper. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, while these programmes are continuously used to assassinate the Progressive Conservative Party, to assassinate the members of this Assembly, and the honourable member for Hermitage can laugh and well laugh, when he himself took

part in the same • kind of a programme last week, Mr. Speaker. Trying to assassinate members of the House of Assembly in public. He has not spoken in the House yet, Mr. Speaker, but he prefers to go on with his Liberal colleague and assassinate members of the House of Assembly on the government side, That is his style, Mr. Speaker. That is h~s style. That is his style. A very poor example of a new member of this House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker. A very poor example. I would like to - 1160

~ebruary 20, 1974 Tape no. 355 Page 1 - MW MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): Order please: Honourable members on both sides are drawn to the rule that when one honourable member is speaking, they must not interrupt. This rule applies to both the honourable member's colleagues as well as honourable members opposite. MR. MORGAN: I would like to see, Mr. Speaker, although the amendment was brought in by the opposition, it cannot be done because we cannot regulate the media. It cannot be done but I would like to see it done. Right now we have the Canadian Radio and Television Collllllission.

Because the federal government are in c~ntrol of the connnission, they can, if they wanted to, control the partisan broadcasts we are having in this province. They can monitor the broadcasts or the programmes.

That is one thing I intend to do if it continues the way it has been going for the past two months, I, as a member of the House of Assembly, will request the C.R.T.C. to monitor at least two programmes in this province, the two I have mentioned, to monitor the progrannnes and let them determine whether these programmes are partisan or not and whether the views of the moderator are expounded as being partisan. In my view they are. The resolution and the amendment: I intend to speak again on the resolution. I am speakine today on the amendment.

But what I am saying is that if the honourable members on the opposite side had any clues as to what the issue was about, they would not have introduced this kind of an amendment because they know that we cannot introduce legislation like that which has been introduced in Ottawa. We cannot do it. Bill C - 203, Mr. Speaker, has been passed by the federal government in the House of Commons. Bill C -203 gives the House of Commons control over the media, over partisan broadcasts, over free-time political broadcasts. We cannot do that! It gives 1161

February 20, 1974 Tape no. 355 Page 2 · the federal government the right to deduct donations paid to political parties. We cannot do that. Mr. Speaker, surely the members of the opposition knew that. They must have known that. Of course, maybe because of ignorance of the facts, they did not know it. Mr. Speaker, the question is an important question and an important issue. There is no way this House of Assembly can bring in legislation and control the financing of election expenses. It cannot be done. There is no way we can bring in legislation for the public financing of election expenses, to control the private financing of election expenses, to