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September 17, 2009

39th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2009-Sep-17 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Thursday 17 September 2009 Jeudi 17 septembre 2009

ORDERS OF THE DAY

PUBLIC SECTOR EXPENSES

REVIEW ACT, 2009 /

LOI DE 2009

SUR L'EXAMEN DES DÉPENSES

DANS LE SECTEUR PUBLIC

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

ONTARIO LOTTERY AND

GAMING CORP.

ONTARIO LOTTERY AND

GAMING CORP.

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION

TAXATION

ONTARIO LOTTERY AND

GAMING CORP.

PRIVATE CAREER COLLEGES

TAXATION

TAXATION

FIRE SAFETY

ELDER ABUSE

GOVERNMENT SERVICES

BUS TRANSPORTATION

WORKPLACE SAFETY

GOVERNMENT SERVICES

LABOUR RELATIONS

ENDANGERED SPECIES

DISASTER RELIEF

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

ROSH HASHANAH

TAXATION

ROSH HASHANAH

DOCTOR SHORTAGE

ORLÉANS FAMILY HEALTH HUB

HEALTH CARE

TORONTO INTERNATIONAL

FILM FESTIVAL

EVENTS IN MISSISSAUGA SOUTH

RAMADAN

PETITIONS

DOCTOR SHORTAGE

LYME DISEASE

CEMETERIES

HOSPITAL FUNDING

PENSION PLANS

HOSPITAL FUNDING

SALE OF DOMESTIC WINES

AND BEERS

DIAGNOSTIC SERVICES

TAXATION

TAXATION

HOSPITAL FUNDING

PRIVATE MEMBERS'

PUBLIC BUSINESS

BREAST CANCER

SCREENING ACT, 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 SUR LE DÉPISTAGE

DU CANCER DU SEIN

FIRE SAFETY

KINDNESS WEEK /

SEMAINE DE BONTÉ

BREAST CANCER

SCREENING ACT, 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 SUR LE DÉPISTAGE

DU CANCER DU SEIN

FIRE SAFETY

KINDNESS WEEK

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Good morning. Please remain standing for the Lord's Prayer, followed by the Buddhist prayer.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

PUBLIC SECTOR EXPENSES

REVIEW ACT, 2009 /

LOI DE 2009

SUR L'EXAMEN DES DÉPENSES

DANS LE SECTEUR PUBLIC

Mr. Takhar moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 201,

An Act to provide for review of expenses in the public sector / Projet de loi 201, Loi prévoyant l'examen des dépenses dans le secteur public.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Debate?

Hon. Harinder S. Takhar: I'm honoured to rise today to lead off the debate for second reading of this very important piece of legislation designed to provide further accountability and transparency with regard to the use of taxpayers' dollars. The Public Sector Expenses Review Act, 2009, if passed, would empower the Integrity Commissioner to review the expense claims of senior officials–and I want to stress "senior" officials—who are employed by or appointed to our 22 largest public agencies, boards and commissions, and take appropriate actions where required.

The proposed legislation requires employees in government agencies to abide by the same level of accountability and oversight that cabinet ministers, political staff and the opposition leaders' expenses are being held to right now. If the Integrity Commissioner determines that all or part of an expense is not allowable, she may require repayment of the expenses in whole or in part. The Integrity Commissioner may also recommend other remedial action—whatever she feels appropriate.

Under the proposed legislation, the government has the power to require any government agency, board or commission to abide by these rules through regulations.

The proposed legislation would require the Integrity Commissioner to prepare and make public an annual report on the review of expense claims. This act applies to expenses incurred on or after September 1, 2009.

There have been some suggestions that the Integrity Commissioner's office will be swamped and unable to handle these new responsibilities. I want to make this clear: I don't think this is an accurate or factual statement. I also want to remind the House that the government consulted with the Integrity Commissioner as the legislation was drafted, and will continue to do so as the regulations are implemented.

Allow me to quote the Integrity Commissioner from a statement that her office issued yesterday after the bill was introduced: "This office has co-operated with the government in preparing for the oversight of the expenses of senior officials at 22 of the province's largest agencies." This is what was said by the Integrity Commissioner—

Mr. Peter Kormos: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I'm referring to standing order 71, in particular 71(b). It provides that, "A bill shall not be called for second reading if the Clerk of the House is notified by 12:00 noon of the sessional day following its introduction of intention to give notice of a reasoned amendment...."

Here we are on the second day. We have until 12 noon to give notice. It seems to me that there's a problem. We have a right to defer second reading if we give notice pursuant to standing order 71, but we're being denied that right by virtue of this bill being called before 12 noon.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I thank the honourable member for the point of order. I would like to engage in a consultation with the Clerk and the table. This House will be recessed for 15 minutes.

The House recessed from 0907 to 0929.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I want to thank the member from Welland for his point of order.

The member from Welland is correct in his reading of standing order 71: There is an opportunity for members to notify the Clerk of an intention to give notice of a reasoned amendment to the motion for second reading. The effect of such notification is to delay the calling of the order for second reading until the next sessional day.

This standing order has been part of our rules for some time and predates the most recent standing order changes, which altered the House schedule.

Notwithstanding standing order 71, the government's intention to call Bill 201 this morning was clearly indicated by way of today's order paper. That being the case, members did have an opportunity to provide notification under 71(

b) if they intended to avail themselves of its provisions. Since no notification was given before 9 a.m. today, there was no reason not to allow the debate to proceed. The order has been called, the motion for second reading moved and the debate has commenced.

Having said that, the standing orders do provide that members have until noon to indicate whether they intend to file notice of a reasoned amendment.

My role, in part, is to facilitate the business of the House. With that and the particular conundrum we find ourselves in this morning in mind, I'm going to give members an opportunity now to verbally indicate if it is their intent to file notice of a reasoned amendment as provided for in 71(b). If so, I will seek a motion to adjourn this debate and call for orders of the day. If not, I will allow the debate to proceed.

Does any member wish to file notice of a reasoned amendment?

If not, we can continue with the debate.

Hon. Harinder S. Takhar: I want to thank the member for letting me continue with this very important debate and piece of legislation that we are debating.

I was saying that the Integrity Commissioner has been consulted and has issued a statement.

I just want to read a few more lines from what the Integrity Commissioner said: "We welcome this opportunity to continue our work in fostering a culture of integrity in the provincial government." She further said, "The Integrity Commissioner's office has been reviewing the expenses of cabinet ministers, opposition leaders and political staff since 2002." If I may quote the Integrity Commissioner's statement again, "This proposed new mandate builds on the work our office has done for the past seven years." Commissioner Morrison is quoted as saying, "The Office of the Integrity Commissioner is responsible for five key areas." I would suggest they know exactly what their mandate is and what they are doing, and they have done a good job.

In these difficult economic times, every tax dollar counts. It is more important than ever that we all take responsibility for making sure that hard-earned tax dollars are spent wisely. While the vast majority of public servants follow the rules and work hard to protect tax dollars, unfortunately, some have not. That is why we have taken steps to ensure that each of us understands and follows the rules regarding expenses.

The introduction of this act follows on a number of recent actions taken by this government to ensure that taxpayers' dollars are not being misspent. Most recently, the government announced that expenses for Ontario public service senior management, cabinet ministers, political staff and senior executives at Ontario's 22 largest agencies will be posted online. We also announced that we will increase the number of random audits of expenses to ensure that the rules are being followed.

During the annual audit of Ontario's agencies, boards and commissions, external auditors will be required to look at expenses and expense practices as well, to ensure that the rules are followed and controls are in place.

In addition, a new two-page

summary of guidelines for travel, meals and hospitality expenses has been developed for easy reference by all OPS employees, political staff and employees at Ontario's agencies, boards and commissions. This

summary boils down some 25 pages of guidelines to about two pages.

Also, the government has committed to the development of mandatory online training on expense claims for all OPS and agency employees.

I want to say that my background actually is in finance, and I had the privilege to work with large private and public corporations as chief financial officer and senior executive. In these roles, I had the responsibility to ensure that adequate internal controls were in place and ensured their ongoing effectiveness.

Any time you find there's room to improve internal controls, you follow certain well-developed practices to improve the internal controls and their effectiveness. The first and the foremost step you always take is to ensure that policies and procedures reflect the current realities and are easily understood. Second, you always undertake to educate the people affected by the new policies and procedures. The next step is, in order to ensure that policies and procedures are being followed, you set up the right approval processes.

This often is supplemented with random audits by the internal or external auditors in large organizations. This helps both to ensure that policies are being followed as intended and that they are effective.

If you look at what we have done, we have followed a very similar approach. Let me just sum it up for you:

—We have clarified that current expense directives with regard to travel, meals and hospitality expenses will be followed by 22 large agencies;

—If this legislation is passed, it will ensure and it will give the authority to the Integrity Commissioner to review the expenses of senior officials of 22 large agencies. I want to say that again: This applies, and our intention is to apply it, to the senior officials only of 22 large agencies at this point; and

—We are also asking our internal audit department or the external auditors—that may be the case—to do random audits of expenses and expense policies.

These are proven methods employed by large organizations to improve their internal controls and their effectiveness, and I feel these are steps in the right direction.

The Premier announced on September 1 the commitment that triggered the very bill we are discussing here today. The bill provides the same rigorous oversight in agency expenses that currently applies to cabinet ministers and political staff. Also on September 1, the Premier directed agencies, boards and commissions to strictly adhere to the rules in the Ontario public service's travel, meals and hospitality expense directives. In addition to that, we also announced an external government-wide review of accountability at agencies, boards and commissions to ensure the interests of taxpayers are protected.

These actions are designed to shine a light on inappropriate expenses so Ontarians will know who exactly is spending what exactly.

As I said before, the vast majority of public servants and appointees to our agencies, boards and commissions know the rules and follow the rules. The steps that our government has taken will make it easier for everyone to know the rules and harder for anyone to break the rules. We are putting in place more education, more oversight and more transparency to achieve greater accountability. I am confident that the public servants working for all Ontarians will, because of the steps we have taken, better appreciate our shared responsibility to be respectful of taxpayers' dollars.

Every person working for taxpayers must take responsibility for knowing the rules and following the rules, just as our government will continue to take responsibility for enforcing those same rules. This is a responsible and I think very timely action. I urge my fellow members in this House to support this important piece of legislation and I look forward to their support.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Questions or comments?

Mr. Paul Miller: I understand the dilemma that the governing party is in with the situation with the scandals that have happened over the summer, and the information that's coming out on a regular basis and will continue to come out for the next several months. Unfortunately, in my humble opinion, they're johnny-come-lately. They've had six years to address these types of situations. As was noted yesterday, once the hand that's in the cookie jar gets caught, then things happen. It's unfortunate that this is the situation and that's the way it's unfolding.

I agree with the minister that accountability is important. I agree with the minister that regular audits should be done. I agree with the minister that there should be a governing body assigned as a watchdog by the government, or any other governing party, to take care of situations that arise that may be questionable at best. That didn't happen; now it is happening. But once again, I'm not quite sure that this bill will cut it. It will probably help to make the people who have abused the system aware of the possible consequences, but I don't think this bill goes far enough.

I don't think the penalties are stated. I honestly believe it's criminal to use taxpayers' money in a flagrant manner, which has been going on for many, many years around here. So I'm hoping that the minister will set out some rules which have some meat to them, that are going to show fines, people are going to be fired, people are going to possibly find themselves in court for abuse of taxpayers' money. I didn't see a lot of that—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Thank you. Further questions and/or comments?

Mr. Dave Levac: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I do welcome you back. I think it's the first time I've seen you in the chair since the break. Welcome and good luck with your duties, as always.

Minister, thank you very much for providing us with a piece of legislation that many of us would support. I'm hoping that in the dissertations from the opposition we hear their support for this legislation. As the member just recently said, this has been going on for years and years and years, which actually means that it's with all levels of government and all parties. So I would hope that as we continue to evolve in this place, as we've done—we don't have the same legislation of 100 years ago—we continue to tweak and we continue to improve pieces of legislation that help us and guide us with taxpayers' dollars, to make sure they're spent in a way that is appropriate.

Quite frankly, I will tell the minister flat out that I'm supporting this piece of legislation. Inside, the legislation provides for a large swath that has not been touched in the past. It has never been touched. Now, with this piece of legislation, we're going to see more light and more transparency in agencies that have never been touched before.

I want us to listen carefully to the opposition as to whether or not they're going to do one of two things: They're going to talk about the legislation and laud the government for cleaning up some things that have been pointed out, not just for this government but for past transgressions, and also whether or not they're going to simply use it to try to mark us up. That's their job. Let's just be prepared.

They're going to sit here and try to say, "Liberals bad, government bad," and then they might say, at the very end of their speeches, "and we think it's a good piece of legislation." That's probably what's going to happen. So I'm asking everybody to prepare yourself for the regular kind of rhetoric. But past the rhetoric, let's pay attention to the bill that's going to make it a better way to spend money.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions and/or comments?

Seeing none, the honourable Minister of Government Services has up to two minutes to respond.

Hon. Harinder S. Takhar: First of all, I want to thank the member from Hamilton East—Stoney Creek. I also want to thank my colleague, the member from Brant. The member from Hamilton East—Stoney Creek actually agreed with some of the key steps we are taking to improve accountability and transparency, and I thank him for that. The member from Brant actually touched on some of the key things here, and I want to thank him for that as well.

The key thing, as I said before, is that I think it's important for us to improve transparency and accountability through this legislation. We have taken, as I indicated before, proven steps to move forward with this. The first is that we have actually taken this whole policy and reduced it to two pages so that everybody can understand. We are moving ahead to train people so they can actually understand this policy. We are also moving ahead to post the expenses of senior officials, cabinet ministers, political staff and opposition leaders, so the public can really see who is spending and what they are spending. These are steps in the right direction.

We are also giving powers to the Integrity Commissioner to actually look at the expenses of senior officials in the 22 largest agencies, so that more accountability can be brought in. She has the power, in fact, if she feels they are not appropriate expenses, to ask for a refund of those expenses.

In addition to that, we will also give powers to external or internal auditors to do random audits, so that they can review expenses and also look at policies and see if they are reflective of the current economic circumstances and how we move forward.

I want to thank both members for their feedback and the support they have provided.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further debate?

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: I'm pleased, on behalf of the PC caucus, to speak to the bill, which was introduced yesterday, entitled the Public Sector Expenses Review Act—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): I don't want to interrupt, but did you want to stand down your lead speaker? Would you like to ask for unanimous consent?

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: I'd like to move that we stand down our lead.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Is it agreed? Agreed.

Honourable member for Kitchener—Waterloo, you have the floor.

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: Thank you very much.

I'm pleased to respond to this legislation; the bill is entitled the Public Sector Expenses Review Act. This legislation would, if passed, give the Integrity Commissioner the legal authority to review expense claims at Ontario's 22 largest agencies.

Let me begin by saying that the Progressive Conservative Party, under the leadership of our leader, strongly supports any initiatives to further accountability and transparency. In fact, it was for that reason that we did have a number of FOIs. We did make requests. I would say to you that this bill is here today because the FOIs uncovered one scandal after the other. In fact, you could say we've had a summer of scandal, and this bill is now an attempt to cover up the information that we obtained in those FOIs and also the numerous spending scandals that came to light.

Although this government purports to support accountability and transparency, in the past six years, with the information that has been obtained, we have not seen accountability, we have not seen transparency. I think what we have seen, however, is a Premier and a cabinet not able to or capable of providing the oversight to the agencies for which they have been responsible. So now, in an attempt to divert attention from the numerous scandals—the spending scandals which have come to light through the FOIs and also through other investigations by the media—the government has introduced this bill.

I also would say it is somewhat ironic that the minister responsible for bringing this forward was one of the first members to actually have been found in violation of the Members' Integrity Act. The Premier took no action, just as the Premier has never taken any action when other scandals have been uncovered, whether it was the scandals at OLG—we've had two there now—or whether it was the scandal at eHealth. So this bill is now just another attempt to cover up the scandals, take away the accountability that the ministers supposedly should have had in providing oversight to these agencies and dump it on to the plate of the Integrity Commissioner.

Having said that, I know and we know that the commissioner can do the work which they have been asked to do in ensuring accountability. However, I would also say to you that we believe it's important that a committee of this House, because of the depth and scope of the scandals, should have the opportunity to review the eHealth and OLG spending scandals. We don't believe that we should be trying to get rid of the responsibilities of cabinet ministers and of the Premier. As I say, this is just an attempt to shift the responsibility elsewhere.

I guess I would also raise the question, has the Premier now acknowledged that the ministers that he has in place are not capable of overseeing aspects of their ministries for which they have responsibility? Is this saying, "Listen, my ministers just aren't up to the job, so I'm going to have to give it to the Integrity Commissioner"? You know, we're going to see the creation of a new bureaucracy. There are going to be 22 agencies that are going to come under the purview of the Integrity Commissioner, who has a staff of nine. You know what? This is just an attempt to divert attention away.

Let me continue. As I say, we believe that this is an attempt to cover up the summer of scandal. This bill is being brought forward after very inappropriate spending practices in at least two Ontario agencies were revealed by the opposition, and despite what the minister has said today about this government believing in transparency and protecting hard-earned tax dollars, we have now had a government in office for six years demonstrating anything but protecting hard-earned tax dollars or seeing that they're spent wisely, or being transparent.

We wouldn't have had to file these FOIs, dig so deeply and use taxpayer money if the government had been willing to provide the information that was requested by us. But I can tell you, much of this information has been very difficult to obtain, and certainly there were some roadblocks put in our way. We wouldn't be here today and there wouldn't be a bill today if we hadn't filed those FOIs and if some of these spending scandals hadn't come to light.

We would have continued to see this culture of waste and this lack of accountability, because the government knew full well for a long time that there were problems at OLG. They were uncovered when the current Minister of Health was then the minister at OLG. We were told that they had been dealt with. Well, obviously they hadn't been, because now we've uncovered a second scandal.

They were told about the spending practices and waste of money at the Smart Systems for Health Agency, and of course now eHealth, but they have chosen to do absolutely nothing in the past six years. They turned a blind eye to what was happening, and they continue. I can remember the Minister of Health standing in this House day after day after day denying any wrongdoing of spending at the Smart Systems for Health Agency or at eHealth. I know, because I questioned the Minister of Health and the Premier about the Smart Systems for Health Agency and subsequently eHealth.

I repeatedly asked the minister and Premier to call in the Auditor General to conduct a value-for-money audit of the SSHA and eHealth Ontario. However, for weeks the government ducked and dodged questions about how the $647 million of taxpayers' money was being spent on the Smart Systems for Health Agency. In fact, I have a press release here that I issued on April 2, 2009, where the headline is: "More Than Half a Billion Spent ... But Where Are the Results?" "Witmer says the agency responsible for Ontario's eHealth system must be investigated."

And we ask here for the Auditor General to be given the opportunity to conduct a value-for-money audit of the Smart Systems for Health Agency to ensure that taxpayers' money was well spent. We asked because at that time we knew—and it says in the press release—there was a lack of oversight, there was a lack of visible success, and we had become aware of rampant government spending. We also knew that in this province, despite the initiatives undertaken by provinces elsewhere that are going to have a province-wide eHealth system up and running this year and next, ours is not going to be ready until 2015.

And yet this government, even despite the fact that Deloitte had some questions about the effectiveness and the value of the money spent, chose to do absolutely nothing.

I conclude that press release by saying, "An audit must be done to identify opportunities for improving the efficiency and effectiveness of eHealth programs and the operations of eHealth Ontario. During difficult economic times, taxpayers want to be assured that their tax dollars are being well spent."

Well, I can tell you that this government, this Premier, this health minister, they did duck and they did dodge; they didn't acknowledge that there were any problems whatsoever.

But you know what they had done? In response to the questioning on the Smart Systems for Health, they attempted to quietly disband that first agency and they set up eHealth. We now know that the track record of eHealth and the spending practices, just total disregard for hard-earned taxpayer dollars, we got the same result; so far we have nothing. And let me add that according to Canada Health Infoway, by 2010, Prince Edward Island, Quebec, Alberta, BC and the Northwest Territories will have an eHealth system.

Meanwhile, we've spent all this money—two agencies later and we're not going to see any results until 2015. That's not going to allow the taxpayers or the patients to be well served in the province of Ontario.

So let's go on. What did we learn when we did the FOIs? We learned that these agencies, whether it's Smart Systems, eHealth or the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corp., had spent millions of dollars, a lot of it on consulting fees to Liberal-friendly firms, flights, food, hotels for consultants etc.

It was shocking to taxpayers in the province of Ontario to realize, particularly during these tough economic times when so many people were out of a job or had lost their savings in their RSPs and other accounts, to see how money was being spent and the lack of oversight that was demonstrated by the McGuinty government and by the individual cabinet ministers. This government, until the introduction of this bill, which I say is simply an attempt to divert attention away from this summer of scandals and the information in the FOIs—and I can tell you this is not the end.

There's more information about more agencies where spending has been totally inappropriate and there is, again, a total lack of oversight by the ministers responsible for the agencies.

Their refusal to take action stands in stark contrast to what the McGuinty government said in the Ministry of Health's 2008-09 results-based plan briefing book. On page 2 of this book it says: "A solid investment strategy is completely dependent on clear returns on investment. Ontarians are entitled to know what they are getting for their money.... The government will not spend where measurable results are not evident."

Well, I can tell you, what they say in this Ministry of Health book is totally contrary to what happened at Smart Systems and eHealth. I just want to give you a few specific examples. This is where the minister stood in the House and ducked and dodged and refused to acknowledge there was any wrongdoing, refused to be transparent, refused to be accountable.

What we were able to obtain through freedom of information was that the Smart Systems for Health Agency had spent more than $45,000 on food expenses for consultants, they had spent more than $753,000 on travel expenses for consultants and they had spent more than $231,000 on hotels for consultants.

We also learned through the FOIs that between October 2008, when the new eHealth was set up, and January 2009—just a few months—eHealth Ontario had continued to spend taxpayer money, in total disregard of the fact that this money had been hard earned.

Again, we have a Minister of Health and we have a Premier who are totally unconcerned and refuse to acknowledge there's any wrongdoing, any inappropriate spending.

We again find that food expenses for consultants and employees continued. It was found that in about three to four months, there had been $39,000 spent on food for employees and consultants, there had been $108,000 spent on travel expenses of employees and consultants, and there had been $48,000 spent just on catering.

I think we have to acknowledge that despite the fact that this government and this minister stand here today and tell us that they want to be accountable and they want there to be transparency, we've had six years where they have turned a blind eye to any abusive spending of taxpayer dollars. They didn't make readily available to us this FOI information or any of the other FOIs that we asked for, and we have to pay to get this information. And do you know what? That information should be made readily available to the opposition if the government has nothing to hide.

So we are here today because we have had a summer of scandal: in particular, the eHealth spending scandal, and of course the OLG spending scandal. This bill today is simply an attempt to cover it up and to I think acknowledge that the ministers aren't capable of providing the appropriate oversight, so we're now going to give it to the Integrity Commissioner.

As I say, we value the work that the Integrity Commissioner and her staff do and that they have undertaken in the past. We still believe an all-party committee should review these two spending scandals, at eHealth and OLG. We strongly believe in legislation to ensure that there will be accountability. But we're not quite sure why the Premier is trying to shove it off to somebody else, this whole issue of integrity.

We believe that the Premier needs to demonstrate the fact that he is in charge. We also believe that it's time for him to send a signal to his cabinet that at some point in time a minister has to be held accountable. You can't have accountability without someone being held accountable. As I say, this Premier doesn't hold his ministers accountable.

Certainly when it comes to OLG, where we've now had two scandals, a minister should have been held accountable. When we take a look at Smart Systems for Health and now eHealth, two more agencies, the Minister of Health should have been accountable. And we have asked for the minister's resignation.

So today we do support any accountability measures. We do support transparency measures. But if the Premier is not prepared to be accountable himself, this bill will be of no consequence. We've already seen that when members violate the Members' Integrity Act and it's found to be in violation by the Integrity Commissioner, there's no consequence anyway.

I would suggest that the government do more than just talk about accountability, do more than just talk about transparency, do more than just protect hard-earned taxpayer dollars wisely—which they have not done for six years—and recognize that it's time now to move forward, it's time now for the Premier to hold his cabinet accountable, and it's time for the cabinet to ensure that the agencies and the staff they oversee are held to account, and, if they are found to be in violation, that there are some real consequences to those actions. So far, we haven't found that. People simply continue in their jobs.

There are no penalties; there's no consequence whatsoever. I'm not sure this bill speaks to any consequences either; it was just introduced yesterday. But certainly, as I say, this bill is a cover-up—a cover-up trying to move us past the summer of scandal.

We hope that this government, in the future, will be accountable.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Questions and/or comments?

Mr. Paul Miller: I would commend the former minister for her points—very well thought out and researched.

All I can say is I spent my life working as a steelworker in Hamilton. I worked hard, paid taxes and followed the rules. I didn't have an expense account for car washes; I did it myself. Any work on my house, I did myself. My work was dangerous and tough, and when I see $3,000-a-day consultants, my reaction is anger. I didn't get free coffee at Tim Hortons. I paid for my children in education. I didn't receive millions of dollars in buyouts and severances. If I lost money on a regular basis, I would have been fired. I paid for my gasoline, heating oil etc. I didn't have an expense account.

I would suggest that now that the government has been caught and now that they've decided to monitor the situation, maybe they should practise what they preach. I don't know about you, but I spent a lot of days in the trenches and I earned and I paid my taxes. So I just want to say that we should be regulating these types of CEOs.

I remember a few years ago that there was even a Hydro One yacht. I remember the Airbus scandal. I remember the golf course in Quebec that Mr. Chrétien was involved in. People in Canada are sick and tired, people in Ontario are sick and tired of the abuses. If this bill is a step in the right direction, that's good, but it sure falls short of any penalties or really bringing these people to task on what they're doing. I for one, as an Ontarian, am sick and tired of it.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Questions or comments?

Hon. Harinder S. Takhar: Let me talk about what the member from Kitchener—Waterloo talked about. You know, in our culture there's a saying that before you throw mud at others, maybe you should look at yourself first.

She talked about two issues; one is about being transparent. How can she even talk about transparency? When we took over the government in 2003, there was a $5-billion-plus deficit which was hidden, and during the election they talked about how the budget was completely balanced. That is transparency from their point of view.

Then she talked about the freedom-of-information records and that they should be readily available. Let me give her some information that maybe will be of some interest to her. Her leader, when he was Minister of Tourism in 2001: Do you know how many freedom-of-information requests he gave? Ten out of 29: 40%. That's how transparent they were, how much information they gave.

When she talked about ministers being capable and respectful—I used to work at a school board when this member was Minister of Education. I also remember what happened when she attended some of the meetings with the teachers and so on. I firmly remember what happened at that time. This is how much respect she earned in the teaching department and so on.

This is what their record is, and now they are lecturing us on that? They should really look at their records first before they even start talking about this. I have a lot of respect for this member, but sometimes when she makes comments, it's unbelievable what kind of mud they throw at us without really looking at the record that they had. They should just look at what they did—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Thank you. Questions and comments?

Mr. Peter Kormos: I appreciate Mrs. Witmer's references to ministerial accountability and, even more importantly, ministerial responsibility. This bill is a very dangerous trend that we've witnessed here because the design of the bill is such that it's going to isolate ministers from their responsibility to oversee not just their ministry but those agencies that are attached to their ministry.

It is inconceivable that nobody in the ministry knew about these types of expenses. It is more likely that deputy ministers or ADMs were a party to some of these spending binges. This government didn't have an aversion to outrageous expenditures by virtue of wining and dining, expensive hotels and the whole nine yards; it only acquired this concern when the spotlight was shone on it.

For the minister to talk about FOI requests and how many are granted—it's not the ministry that determines what FOI requests are responded to; it's the legislation. So that statistic is a very dubious one, and it certainly doesn't assist the minister or the government. What we do know, though, is that this government actively withheld information that was called upon under the freedom-of-information legislation because of political concerns. Dwight Duncan is referred to as having specifically stated that they delayed the disclosure as long as they can. He said, "We simply can't do it anymore.

The gig is up." That political interference is, in and of itself, shameful conduct on the part of this government.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Further questions and comments?

Mr. Dave Levac: The member for Kitchener—Waterloo made me a wizard because, as I predicted, Bill 201 was barely mentioned, and it was mentioned at the end of her speech. It was basically to say, "And yes, we're going to support it." Basically, in a nutshell, what we have here are people wagging their fingers, as I predicted, and using the time to do what they do best, and that is to criticize the government of the day.

What we want to do now is to talk about whether or not we want to move forward in an evolution that I said takes place in all legislation, which is to improve it. The member from Welland taught us a lesson this morning in terms of his point of order. We found a flaw in an issue that he himself is saying is just a flaw; we actually will correct it. So quite frankly, we have to continue to move forward. The bill itself is talking about cleaning up the problem that has been pointed out.

One of the things that I like to hear the most from not just the member from Kitchener—Waterloo but particularly from the NDP is this wonderful action of being the roosters who are taking credit for the sun rising. They crow, the sun comes up and it's, "Oh my gosh, I must be responsible for the sun rising. Here we go."

Actually, let's take a look at the historical references over and over in this place. We continue to see the opportunity for us to improve legislation for the taxpayers and let them see that we're taking action to either protect them in the safety aspect, or taking the money they're giving us to make sure that we make our society better. This bill is addressing a problem. The bill is expanding that capacity.

I disagree with my colleague from Welland. He says that we're not going to have any oversight. We're having oversight of the function. What we're now doing is making sure that the Integrity Commissioner has oversight of the funds that are there for them to spend. That's exactly what the legislation is doing. I laud the minister for bringing it forward and I support the legislation, Bill 201.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): The honourable member from Kitchener—Waterloo, you have up to two minutes to respond.

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: I thank the member for Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, the member from Welland, the minister and the member from Brant.

I think we can see that the bill that we have in front of us here today is one that obviously is going to generate perhaps a little more heated debate than normal. I think the opposition would agree that this bill before us today regarding the shifting of responsibility for oversight of the agencies to the Integrity Commissioner—obviously we see things differently.

We in opposition have received many communications. I know that I certainly have and my colleagues have—e-mail, phone, people stopping us on the street. I think one issue that has particularly offended taxpayers is the scandalous spending at eHealth. It was certainly an issue that confronted me time and time again this summer. I remember hearing from one elderly female pensioner how upset she was because she was on a fixed income and she was quite disappointed to learn about these consultants who were spending $1,000 a day and then charging her for their muffin and coffee.

I had another gentleman come in to see me and he was 82 years old. He insisted a phone call wasn't going to do. He came in to my office and he said, "I've never, ever before felt I had to talk to a member of federal or provincial Parliament." He said, "Mrs. Witmer, I am so upset with this spending and this lack of accountability at the government levels and what I've seen with the McGuinty government. I just want you to know how upset I am and I hope that you'll take the message back. So that's why I'm here."

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): It being past 10:15 of the clock, this House stands in recess until 10:30, at which time we'll have question period.

The House recessed from 1017 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Ms. Sophia Aggelonitis: On behalf of page Nicole Lachapelle and myself, I'd like to welcome to the House Nicole's parents, Mary and Pat Lachapelle, and Nicole's uncle and aunt, Murray and Bonnie Ringrose.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): On behalf of the member from Guelph and page Kaitlin Wagner, I'd like to welcome her mother, Johanna Wagner, and her father, Glenn Wagner, to Queen's Park today.

On behalf of the member from Mississauga South and page Jacob van Wassenaer, we'd like to welcome his father, Philip; his grandmother, Wanda; and his grandfather, Floris, to Queen's Park today as well.

Welcome to all of our guests.

ORAL QUESTIONS

ONTARIO LOTTERY AND

GAMING CORP.

Mr. Norm Miller: My question is for the Minister of Finance on his role in the summer of scandal. Kelly McDougald's notice of claim says Minister Duncan referred to the expenses of OLG and the Windsor Energy Centre as "boils that need to be lanced."

Minister, we know about the abuse that went on with expenses, but why does the minister call the Windsor Energy Centre a "boil that needs to be lanced"?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I'd like to comment on the Windsor Energy Centre, but again, it's a matter that OLG is being sued over, so it makes it very difficult for me to comment on that. There are a number of lawsuits and a number of police investigations going on. What I'm focused on and what my predecessors have been focused on is getting this thing right and making sure that taxpayers have the confidence to know that the proceeds that we derive from OLG, which we invest in hospitals, in schools, in all of the important programs and services we offer—that we are maximizing that asset.

Unfortunately, again, this is a matter that is subject to yet another lawsuit, among other lawsuits and police investigations. There was an interesting report on The National last night. The point is, we are taking action. We are taking action to improve accountability—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you, Minister. Supplementary?

Mr. Norm Miller: Again to the Minister of Finance: Minister, in 2005 a $400-million expansion of the OLG casino in Windsor was announced. Halfway through construction, someone figured out that there wasn't enough power in Windsor to supply the casino expansion. The RFP for the energy centre wasn't issued until 19 months into development of the casino project.

Minister, how do you get halfway through construction of a $400-million project before realizing you won't be able to turn on the lights?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I think those are legitimate questions and they are subject to a lawsuit between the OLG and the contractor. I would submit that it is difficult for me to respond to all of these lawsuits that are going on—no question—other than to improve accountability, to improve access to information on these organizations, to ensure that we have the operation going as strongly as possible. We have brought forward measures. Will that member and his party support them? It's difficult, I say to my colleague and friend, to comment on all of these legal matters, other than to take the steps we're taking to ensure that these sorts of things never, ever happen again.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Mr. Norm Miller: Again to the Minister of Finance: Earlier this week, the Premier also made a show of what he says is a commitment to transparency. Let's put that commitment to the test today. Members of this House would like Minister Duncan to explain where the capital for the energy centre came from and where it shows up on the books. For now, will the minister at least say how many millions the province has put into the energy centre project?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Again, I say to my colleague opposite that this is a matter of yet another lawsuit. It's difficult for me to comment on that. It's another among a number of lawsuits that have been widely reported in the media. I can't comment with respect to that other than to say this government has taken the steps, over the course of the last number of years, to correct the challenges in that organization. We will continue to take steps in that regard. We will have more to say about the composition of the board, the senior executive.

We have to give Ontarians greater assurance that their assets are being properly managed. We are up to that challenge and we've brought forward legislation that will help us with that. My hope is that the member and his party will vote for it and will help us make this organization work better for all Ontarians.

ONTARIO LOTTERY AND

GAMING CORP.

Mr. Peter Shurman: My question is also for the Minister of Finance. The Windsor Energy Centre is yet another example of the Liberals winging it as they go. A hastily arranged news release announced it, there was little about it in planning or budget documents and, according to a spokesperson for the builder and operator of the energy centre, OLG and the McGuinty Liberals' mismanagement cost the taxpayers of Ontario $30 million for the Windsor Energy Centre alone. What else are we on the hook for? Will the minister open the books?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I would love to be able to talk about this. I think that there are legitimate questions around this. We are in front of the courts, among other lawsuits that have been brought against the OLG. We are moving to ensure that taxpayers have the greatest opportunity to be assured that their assets are being properly managed. Our goal throughout has been to provide transparency and clarity on these issues. We are moving appropriately. We are responding, as OLG has been, to a number of lawsuits and police investigations that are going on there.

I'm glad you're asking these questions because it points to the need to do the things that we have done to give taxpayers greater assurances that their assets are properly managed.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Shurman: A lot of this goes well beyond any lawsuits. Again for the minister: According to the Windsor Star from August 27, OLG was supposed to have an exclusive operator of the energy centre in place by now. Nothing's been announced and I'm sure the second turnover of the board will mean no new operator will be found any time soon. In the interim, who owns the energy centre? If it's OLG, then why is a gaming corporation running a power plant?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: The energy centre continues to operate. The member will know that OLG was successful in blocking an injunction last week. I think those are legitimate questions, I think they're important questions and I think they are encapsulated in the lawsuit that has been brought by the contractor. The energy centre continues to operate.

There is a dispute as to how OLG has managed this. OLG is responding through the legal channels. It's difficult for me to comment other than to say that the kinds of steps we're taking to improve transparency and accountability—I'm surprised that the member and his caucus have not spoken out in favour of them, have not said that this kind of action is appropriate and the right steps to take.

There have been challenges at OLG; they've been going on. Our government has responded on a—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Mr. Peter Shurman: Again for the minister: Under the request for proposal, the successful bidder was to design, build, own and operate the project. The back end of the deal appears to have fallen through because the developer is suing, as the minister points out. If the first boil was lanced by firing the CEO and making the Integrity Commissioner accountable for expenses, how will Minister Duncan lance this one?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Again, it's difficult for me to speak on a matter that's before the courts. First of all, the challenges that we are faced with at OLG we are responding to where we can through improved accountability, improved transparency. We are in the process of appointing a new board and we look forward to that new board having a look at these issues.

OLG continues to pursue the proper legal avenues to respond to these very serious issues. I concur with the member, absolutely, that there are serious issues and I want to make sure that taxpayers' interests are protected. That's why the Premier has taken the steps he has. That's why this government has taken the steps it has over the course of the last four years. Now we're taking further steps to give taxpayers greater assurance, greater accountability, not just at OLG but right across—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Minister of Finance. Can the minister confirm that political staff in his office and the Premier's office vet freedom-of-information requests sent to government agencies like the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corp.?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: No, because we don't do that. What the Information and Privacy Commissioner has said about this is, "There is a recognition that Cabinet Office's issues management process is designed to not interfere with the process of FOI requests within the time limits specified in the act, and that the process is designed as a 'heads-up' and not a 'sign off'.... A process designed to allow Cabinet Office and individual ministers' offices to prepare for media or other reaction to the release of documents on a particular date is acceptable."

That's the Information and Privacy Commissioner. It's the appropriate process and one that we have followed very carefully.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Yesterday, the Premier would not answer the question about the whereabouts of his assistant chief of staff on a particular day in August, as we were waiting with bated breath for the release of FOI documents. He was either there or he wasn't there. He was either there interfering with the integrity of the FOI process in a desperate attempt to manage their way out of another expense scandal, or he wasn't there. Which is it?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: We followed the process that's been outlined by the privacy commissioner, as well as the legislation; it's quite appropriate.

I am proud that this government brought freedom of information to Hydro and OPG. I'm proud of the initiatives the Premier has taken with respect to enhanced accountability, enhanced transparency. So we will continue to provide greater transparency, greater accountability, so that taxpayers will know that their assets are being well managed, that in fact where challenges do arise, they are responded to in a timely, responsible and appropriate fashion.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: FOIs, as you know, are the public's information, not the personal property of the Liberal Party of Ontario. Freedom-of-information laws are supposed to prevent politicians from hiding information from the public, not give them a chance to sanitize and scrutinize the facts before they're released.

Can the minister confirm that at this very moment in time the Premier's spin doctors aren't going through our freedom-of-information requests?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: We follow the appropriate steps under freedom of information. My own view on these matters is that we should be following the rules. We are. That's what the privacy commissioner has said. I remind the member opposite that that same privacy commissioner has pointed out that we have a 94% compliance rate, and we always strive to do even better than that, even on these very large ones. The OLG expense thing, I think, involved 10,000 pages. So yes, we do move as quickly as we can to get that information to the public. No government in Ontario has a better track record at transparency and accountability than the McGuinty Liberal government.

TAXATION

Ms. Andrea Horwath: This question is again to the Minister of Finance. The government has spent the week desperately defending their HST scheme, but with each passing day cabinet ministers look like the last passengers on a sinking ship. Now we learn that the Minister of Finance and his staff are threatening critics of the HST in an attempt to shut them up. Today's Globe says that the minister will release a report critiquing the mutual fund industry—but he'll withhold it, on the other hand, if the industry keeps quiet about the HST. Does the minister think that political blackmail is appropriate behaviour?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: It's interesting how the leader of the third party will state as fact anonymous sources with false allegations—completely false.

I remind the member opposite what I said on Tuesday, which was widely reported: We continue to meet with the mutual fund industry on the implementation of the HST. I have myself met with them on two occasions. There are a number of transitional issues associated with the mutual fund industry. They've had a number of issues with the GST over a number of years that I think are legitimate. We are attempting to work with the federal government, the government of British Columbia and the industry itself to try to fix some of those rules that have caused them challenges over the years, and I look forward to continuing to work with them and meet with them. They are an important and—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The government claims that the HST is going to create jobs, but the Ontario Chamber of Commerce says that it's going to kill as many as 40,000 new jobs a year. The Premier insists that he has the support of his federal leader, but Michael Ignatieff wants nothing to do with the "Harper sales tax." The government says that the scheme is good for business, but his Minister of Finance has been reduced to threatening business so that they won't speak out. Does the minister think it is appropriate to base the release of a government report on whether or not a particular business sector supports his HST scheme?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: We continue to work with the industry. It's an important industry. You know, from time to time there are anonymous people who say false things. I can't respond to that. It's very difficult.

I will repeat what I said to the industry in two meetings I've had with them. I will repeat what was widely reported in the Globe and Mail on Tuesday. There are significant issues for that industry as we move to the harmonized tax. They have had significant challenges with the GST over a number of years. We would like to be able to resolve those longer-term issues, recognizing we are proceeding with the HST and recognizing that it is a policy that will create jobs. It will help Ontario get through into the next generation of growth.

I look forward to continuing to work not just with that industry, but a variety of industries. We have successfully resolved some issues the housing sector had, and we have more work to do before implementation.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: This is about the government trying to hold back a report to get support for the HST. It's not about how many times this minister has met with the mutual fund industry.

The government keeps trying to sell the scheme, but people know a bad deal when they see one. People want a government to make life more affordable for them; the HST is going to add at least $600 a year in new costs for the people of this province. People want the government to take action on jobs, yet the HST will stifle job growth—as many as 40,000 new jobs a year, as quoted by the Ontario Chamber of Commerce. People want their government to be upfront with them. When will the government stop ignoring the people of this province, who are telling you to back away from plans and cancel your HST, this unfair scheme that's going to hurt people from one end of the province to the other?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Well, first of all, I don't think my colleague opposite is speaking entirely credibly on this issue. Let me say what now two chairs and presidents of the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters say: "It is the ... most important step that can be taken to boost the provincial economy and create" jobs "in the future."

Speaking of NDP credibility, I've just been handed an e-mail that went from the campaign manager for the St. Paul's by-election, Matias de Dovitiis, to a constituent, which said that the HST would be revenue-neutral. That party's been saying that this is a big revenue grab. We'll be putting this out for all Ontarians to see. This is about credibility—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

ONTARIO LOTTERY AND

GAMING CORP.

Mr. John Yakabuski: My question is for the Minister of Energy. Minister, the successful bidder for the Windsor Energy Centre won the right to own and operate the centre to power the casino. OLG is paying the company to operate the centre for them, but OLG appears to still own it. Power generation is regulated to ensure public safety. OLG has no mandate or expertise in power generation. Why is it being allowed to run a power company?

Hon. George Smitherman: First and foremost is to acknowledge what has been discussed already on the floor of this Legislature, which is that the developer of the facility has obviously taken some legal action, and we'll have to wait for the courts to resolve those matters. In the meantime, I can tell the honourable member that the facility is operating with appropriate staff on hand to be able to provide those responsibilities and in a fashion which is consistent with the necessity of appropriate protections for the public.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. John Yakabuski: Operator by morning, blackjack dealer by evening.

Again for the minister: To solve your problems with accountability for expenses at OLG, the Premier fired the CEO. The incoming CEO inherits a power company when they thought they were dealing with gaming. Owners are the ones who are accountable for meeting regulatory standards. The minister once had the portfolio for OLG. Is he knowingly exposing the public to risk by allowing a casino to run a power station?

Hon. George Smitherman: Last night I had the opportunity to witness a gentleman who's a politician sing the national anthem, and I recognized that it is possible to be multi-talented—and I say that with some compliment to his skill in that regard. I take the point that he has made. He doesn't view an organization in its breadth. This is a big organization that has large and substantial facilities, and of course associated with the operation of big facilities are included the operation of those things which provide power and electricity and the like.

We have every confidence that the facility is being operated in a fashion consistent with the necessary protections for the natural environment and for human health.

PRIVATE CAREER COLLEGES

Mr. Rosario Marchese: A question to the Deputy Premier: This morning, the Toronto Star launched an investigative series into private career colleges. Many unlicensed schools charge students a lot of money, provide them with bogus diplomas and leave students without the knowledge or skills they need. When it comes to the world of health care, like a personal support worker, this means that Ontarians are vulnerable to inadequate and potentially dangerous care. Can the Deputy Premier explain why there is no monitoring, no oversight, no control, and why there are no safeguards and no penalties on those unscrupulous operators?

Hon. George Smitherman: In point of fact, the honourable member is just plain wrong. This Legislature passed

an act in 2005 which does provide the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities the capacity to address challenges that are known in private career colleges. That's exactly what has occurred in this circumstance. We do agree with the honourable member that as it relates to personal support workers, who are crucial in the provision of loving care to people across the province, these are important matters. But it's important to acknowledge that the efforts that have been taken by the ministry are possible because of the passage by this Legislature and this government of a bill in 2005.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Rosario Marchese: The Deputy Premier is absolutely wrong, and the Ombudsman tells him so, and not just tells him so but tells his whole government that that is the case. I paraphrase the Ombudsman when he says that through the ministry's inattention, indifference and dereliction, the ministry is creating an environment in which people are becoming easy prey to unscrupulous operators.

The slap-on-the-wrist approach is simply ineffective and it's not working. When will Ontarians see decisive action on this matter?

Hon. George Smitherman: Firstly, I really wonder if it's appropriate that the honourable member chooses to offer a quote as a paraphrase, but the real thing that he misses the mark on is that he says he offers a quote that says there was no action taken; he says there's no capacity for decisive action. We shut them down.

TAXATION

Mrs. Carol Mitchell: My question is for the Minister of Revenue. Small business, construction and farming are large employers and are an important part of the cultural identity of Huron—Bruce. These groups have been coming to me over the summer with questions regarding the harmonized sales tax. They are interested in understanding what the HST's impact will be on their businesses. In particular, they are interested in input tax credits and how they will work. Can you explain how input tax credits will work for the businesses in Huron—Bruce?

Hon. John Wilkinson: I want to thank my friend for the question. Businesses that deal with the GST today know that when they charge the GST, they remit that to the federal government, but they retain the GST that they have paid on the goods and services they have acquired to make a good. But when it comes to our antiquated retail sales tax system, they charge the PST and send it to the government with no credit whatsoever for the taxes they've paid.

Under our new system, when we harmonize our sales tax with the federal government, businesses will charge the HST but be able to retain all of the HST that they have paid in creating a product or a service. That will amount to some $4.3 billion a year on top of half a billion dollars a year in savings to them from only having to administer one tax to one government instead of having to administer two taxes to two governments.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mrs. Carol Mitchell: I've been told that the harmonized sales tax is going to restrict investment. People are feeling the effects of a global economic slowdown, and no one wants to be in a situation where they are dependent on the government to provide for their family. I think there's a recognition that something in our economy is not working, but people are asking if now is the time to fix it and wondering if a harmonized sales tax is going to help. At times like this, we all ask what the effects of tax relief for businesses mean, versus other investments. Minister, what do input tax credit savings for businesses mean for our economy and for people who are worried about work today?

Hon. John Wilkinson: I want to thank my colleague for the question. We're the only jurisdiction in the world that exports 80% of what we make but still taxes the inputs that are required to make the very things that we sell to the world. It's those sales that lead to the high quality of life that we have right here in Ontario. In the 21st century, our current tax system is a hindrance to that. That's why it's important for us to reform our tax system, drag it out of the 20th century—a system that was created in 1961—and move it into the 21st century so that we can compete in the 21st century.

That allows our businesses to hire more people, invest more, sell more. That's what we need in this province: We need more people back to work.

I am convinced, and those of us on this side of the House understand, how important it is that in the 21st century we give our businesses a 21st-century, modern tax system—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

TAXATION

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: I appreciate the opportunity to ask another question of the Minister of Finance. I, of course, want to ask him about the 21st-century taxation that they're going to bring in.

A pattern is emerging on how this government deals with problems. We get PR schemes that start with denial, scapegoating, and then ministers who will say absolutely anything to sell a plan that isn't credible.

The public is against the HST. Now members of the mutual fund industry are coming forward and telling us that the Minister of Finance will say anything to push the tax. In fact, they're telling us that they're being threatened by the minister. I don't believe for a second that those are false allegations, because the track record of this minister would suggest otherwise.

We know the HST is a bad deal for Ontario. Is it so bad that the Minister of Finance has to use intimidation to sell it?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I will re-emphasize what—I can't respond to false allegations by anonymous sources. I will say what I have done before. I've met with the leaders of the industry on two occasions, and I will likely meet with them again.

There are a number of transitional issues associated; there are a number of GST issues that go back a long way with that particular industry. We are attempting—

Hon. Gerry Phillips: To work with them, like housing.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: We are attempting to work with them, as we did with the housing industry, my colleague reminds me, to resolve those transitional issues. We have a period of time left before implementation of this particular policy and we will continue to meet with them and we welcome the opportunity to work with that industry.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Again, I don't believe these are baseless allegations, nor do I believe they're false, having spoken with the industry several times myself. Mutual funds are a major source of income for many seniors and retirees. The mutual fund industry is expressing legitimate concern about the impact of the HST on the people that they serve. A recent Mackenzie Financial report estimates that the cost of the HST for a $100,000 portfolio will be almost $2,500 over the course of 10 years, and on larger portfolios that will be much more. Your 8% tax takes money away from seniors and people saving for retirement.

It is time to stop the intimidation. Will the minister listen to all those affected, including the mutual fund industry, and scrap the HST?

Hon. Leona Dombrowsky: What's Tim going to do about it?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I wonder if Tim Hudak will do that. If I understand the member properly, she has asked if we will scrap the HST. No, we won't. It is the right policy for the times; Mike Harris has even endorsed it, Jim Flaherty, a lot of really prominent Conservatives—and Mini Mike over there. I'll try to keep my tone and tenor down. No, to the member, we won't scrap it. I guess my question to you and Mr. Hudak is, will you?

FIRE SAFETY

Mr. Paul Miller: My question is to the minister responsible for seniors. In the last year there have been a number of very close calls and two tragic deaths in Ontario's retirement homes because of sprinkler systems that are not mandatory. If it weren't for the swift actions of firefighters and a dose of good luck, we would have seen even greater tragedy in these retirement homes. But these close calls and tragedy could have been prevented if your government ensured that sprinkler systems were a requirement of every retirement home in this province. Why has this government failed to ensure the basic safety of our most vulnerable citizens?

Hon. M. Aileen Carroll: I hesitate to use that age-old reference of disagreeing with the premise, but I do indeed disagree with the premise of my honourable colleague's question. We're doing a great deal to make sure that our seniors in this province live in safety, live in healthy environments. We're bringing forward legislation that will regulate, in time, the houses in which they dwell. I work closely with ministers who are under the onus of making sure that fire regulations are in place. They are protected by that aspect.

Also, on the health provisions regarding food, regarding all of the legislation that deals with where they live, I work with the health minister, who is bringing in tremendous initiatives and aging at home and all of what's available to them on the health side, on the safety side, on the education and on the—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Paul Miller: I'm not sure the minister understands the serious consequences of failing to make sprinkler systems mandatory in retirement homes. In April 2008, by the quick and efficient actions of retirement home staff and a stroke of extremely good luck, all residents of the Rowanwood Retirement Residence in Huntsville escaped injury in a horrific fire that completely destroyed the home. In Mississauga in 1995, eight seniors died because of a fire in their retirement home, and in January of this year, two seniors died in a retirement home fire in Orillia.

After each of these tragedies, firefighters recommended mandatory sprinklers in retirement homes. How many more deaths and more calls will it take to get this government to finally legislate mandatory sprinkler and fire systems for each and every retirement home in this province?

Hon. M. Aileen Carroll: Indeed, I don't question whether or not sprinklers save lives and protect against property damage; that is indeed true. Also I'm pleased to advise the House that effective April 1, 2010, all high-rise residential buildings over three stories will require fire sprinkler systems. We are making our buildings safer here in Ontario, and these changes that are being brought forward will harmonize Ontario's building code with the National Building Code.

With respect to expanding sprinkler requirements to other buildings and to other occupancies, my colleague has asked the Ontario fire marshal to present all options available for further improving fire safety, and he is indeed, as is the government, awaiting that advice.

ELDER ABUSE

Mr. Wayne Arthurs: My question is also for the minister responsible for seniors.

Each of us in this place has a significant number of elderly persons within our ridings. Minister, elder abuse has become a significant public health and human rights issue around the world and particularly here in Ontario. It's estimated that between 65,000 and 115,000 seniors in this province are subject to some form of abuse or neglect, but even one abused elder is one too many.

Over the last few years, the government, through Ontario's strategy to combat elder abuse, has provided funding to help protect Ontario's seniors from abuse. Unfortunately, I understand the funding of this strategy expired this year.

Can the minister explain what the government is doing to protect Ontario's seniors from elder abuse now that the funding has ended?

Hon. M. Aileen Carroll: I thank my honourable colleague for this question. It is indeed a segue to what I was saying earlier: that the dignity and safety of our seniors is something to which we attach the highest priority.

Protecting our seniors is indeed a priority, and that's why, for the first time in the province's history, our government is investing $900,000 in new annual permanent funding to Ontario's strategy to combat elder abuse. The strategy will help our partner, the Ontario Network for the Prevention of Elder Abuse, continue this fight. I just recently attended the federal, provincial and territorial meeting in Edmonton last week of all ministers responsible for seniors, and of course Ontario is the only province to come forward with that kind of permanent, stable, core funding, and it was really quite well received and somewhat with awe—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Wayne Arthurs: Minister, thank you for that particular information. Seniors in my riding and throughout the province will certainly be pleased to hear that the government is taking particular action to fight elder abuse.

Many experts report that elder abuse is under-reported because seniors are afraid or ashamed to come forward. Seniors are also frightened to report the abuse because they do not want to reveal their identity for fear of punishment by their abuser. Seniors at risk of abuse must be able to receive help confidentially, as well as support at times of need, both day and night.

Would the minister tell us what the government is doing to provide Ontario seniors with around-the-clock support when they are threatened, bullied or being abused?

Hon. M. Aileen Carroll: Indeed, it is a dilemma, just as my colleague has described. It is a situation where people are fearful or ashamed to come forward. The size of this dilemma is one that we are extremely concerned about. By the year 2031, to let the House know, one fifth of the population of this province will be over the age of 65, so getting these programs up and running for those who are at risk now and for those who may be at risk in a few years' time is extremely important.

We have launched a seniors' safety helpline. It is available 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and what I think is very important for all of us to note is that it's available in 154 languages, because we cry for help in all of the cultural communities and in all of the languages that make us Ontario today, and we're there for every one of those seniors.

GOVERNMENT SERVICES

Mr. Robert W. Runciman: My question is to the Minister of Government Services, and it's about his ill-considered decision to close private licence-issuing offices in the province.

The minister says this is a consumer-friendly move, but the reality is that he has absolutely no idea. His ministry didn't evaluate the efficiency and effectiveness of individual offices. They just came up with a blanket criteria that in many, many instances will result in less efficient, more costly and frustrating service. If that's not the case, I ask the minister to tell my constituents how the ServiceOntario office in Brockville will provide better service than the private issuer.

Hon. Harinder S. Takhar: Let me start by saying we are going to modernize, we are going to streamline ServiceOntario centres so we can provide enhanced service and better customer service to all Ontarians. By doing so, these are some of the objectives that we have in mind. Number one, all Ontarians will have the services available to them within 10 kilometres. Number two, they will have enhanced customer service. Number three, the private issuers network is an integral part of this whole customer service reorganization and streamlining.

Some 60% of all ServiceOntario centres will be private issuers networks, and we will be moving ahead to provide expanded customer service through this new, streamlined ServiceOntario centre. I will be more than pleased to expand on that benefit in the member's riding.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Robert W. Runciman: We didn't really get an answer in terms of better service, and the private issuer invested $20,000 of their money—not taxpayers' money—in operating their facility just two years ago.

I'll talk about the private issuer in Brockville. They have free, level parking with easy access for the disabled; you're going to be hearing more about that. They're open on Saturdays. The ServiceOntario office in Brockville is on a steep incline, very difficult for the disabled, in the middle of a farmers' market, with no free parking and closed on Saturdays. Minister, this is not a good deal for anyone except those who believe in bigger government. Apparently, you're that guy.

Minister, will you go back to the drawing board, evaluate these offices on an individual basis and ensure that the public and hard-pressed taxpayers are being well served before you proceed with these closures?

Hon. Harinder S. Takhar: Let me say how it will benefit Brockville. First, the new service centre is only two kilometres away from the existing service centre. Right now, Brockville residents only get health card services two or three times a month; now, they will get regular services. In the southern region of Ontario, there will be significant increases in health card services, from four to 59 locations.

The member has an issue about the parking, and I understand that issue. I said yesterday in the House to another question that we're going to evaluate these situations. We want to make sure that the services are available at the same standard everywhere where they're available right now. In fact, we want to increase the services available in each of these locations, and I will work with the member to make sure that some of these services stay at the same level as they are available right now.

BUS TRANSPORTATION

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is for the Minister of Transportation. Greyhound is threatening to shut down bus services across northwestern Ontario and Manitoba. It's a very serious issue and one people in northwestern Ontario are extremely concerned about. Tens of thousands of people living in small towns, villages and First Nations' communities in northwestern Ontario rely on Greyhound bus services for basic transportation to get them back and forth for medical appointments, particularly, to places like Thunder Bay, Sault Ste. Marie and Winnipeg.

Yesterday, the Manitoba government met with Greyhound officials and found interim solutions to sustain bus services in that province. My question is, what has the McGuinty government done to sustain Greyhound bus services in northwestern Ontario?

Hon. James J. Bradley: First of all, I recognize how important this is to northwestern Ontario, and I know that the former leader of the NDP said the following about it. He said that Greyhound is crying poor in Manitoba even though they have just built a new terminal at the Winnipeg airport, and he's very knowledgeable about this: "I have no doubt that they're probably losing money in some places, but this is more than anything else a bargaining tactic." That's from a member who represents there, and knows it better than probably most of us would because it affects his riding.

We are concerned about this. What has happened in previous instances is that when Greyhound has withdrawn its services, other companies have moved in to provide services. That is one of the solutions that is being looked at very carefully at this time. Greyhound is obligated to seek others to provide this kind of service to the people of northwestern—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you, Minister. Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Greyhound has been cutting bus services and bus frequency in northwestern Ontario over the past six years and the McGuinty government has been missing in action. People from Wawa to Rainy River, Hearst to Kenora, have seen their bus services to Thunder Bay, Winnipeg and Sault Ste. Marie either discontinued or diminished, with no alternative air or rail services to rely on afterwards. Now, Greyhound is threatening more cuts and all this minister says is that he hopes another carrier will be there to step in and provide services. That is not good enough.

When will the McGuinty government finally do something to sustain quality bus services across northwestern Ontario where the people desperately need them?

Hon. James J. Bradley: In the context of what the former leader of the NDP had to say about the company and what John Baird, the federal minister, said, Greyhound is a Texas-based multinational, and their actions are heavy-handed and clearly an attempt to bully the provinces of Manitoba and Ontario. But I am optimistic that they will provide. The past spring, Greyhound ended its bus service between Hearst and Thunder Bay. Caribou Coach Transportation Co. is now providing the bus service between Hearst and Thunder Bay. Last summer Greyhound ended its bus service between Fort Frances and Thunder Bay.

Caribou Coach Transportation Co. is now providing bus service between Fort Frances and Thunder Bay.

I understand there are already two companies—one out of Ontario and one out of Manitoba—that have expressed interest in these routes, as reported in the Belleville Intelligencer on September 14. So—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

WORKPLACE SAFETY

Ms. Laurel C. Broten: My question is for the minister responsible for women's issues. The workplace murders of Lori Dupont and Theresa Vince have taught us all some very tough lessons on the importance of taking serious action to respond to harassment and violence in the workplace. We know that domestic violence follows women into the workplace and when it does, it costs us all in ways too many to count.

We also know that coworkers and employers are in a unique position to identify the signs of abuse and that knowing how to help can be the difference between life and death.

What is the Ontario Women's Directorate doing to give more employers and coworkers access to resources and training on how to recognize and respond to domestic violence in the workplace so that more women can be protected?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Thank you to the member for her question and for her personal dedication and commitment to this issue.

No one can afford to be a bystander when it comes to domestic violence. The costs both personal and economic are just too high. That's why I'm very happy to share the news with the Legislature that we are investing an additional $620,000 in the innovative neighbours, friends and families public education campaign. This funding is going to the Centre for Research and Education on Violence Against Women and Children, located in London, to expand neighbours, friends and families into the workplace. This campaign is already empowering Ontarians in more than 170 communities with the skills they need to help at-risk women, their children and the men who abuse.

I'm very proud that the Ontario public service in the southwestern Ontario region has been one of the first workplaces to embrace neighbours, friends and families, with more than 2,500 public servants already educated and trained.

Community-based campaigns like neighbours, friends and families are a vitally important component in our ongoing efforts to make—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Just stop the clock for a second. I will remind the members that we are going to be taking a comprehensive review of questions that have been asked over a number of years. Much of what I was hearing in your response there is much more suited to and sounds more like a ministerial statement.

Supplementary.

Ms. Laurel C. Broten: This is an issue that I have advocated on for many years, and over the past few years, violence and harassment have been revealed as very serious issues in workplaces across Ontario. In fact, a recent Statistics Canada study suggests that one third of nurses working in hospitals or long-term-care facilities were physically abused by patients over the course of a year. Both physical violence and harassment can have tremendous consequences for workers, families and society as a whole.

I would ask the minister to indicate what our government is going to do with respect to new legislation to require employers to put in place policies and programs to address workplace violence and harassment to ensure that women can be better protected in their workplaces and that no more lives need to be tragically lost.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: To the Minister of Labour.

Hon. Peter Fonseca: I want to thank the member for Etobicoke—Lakeshore for her advocacy on this very important issue. We've listened to the concerns of our stakeholders and those who participated in our consultation last year. If passed, this proposed legislation would clarify the roles of workplace parties in protecting workers from workplace violence and harassment, raise awareness and understanding of workplace violence and harassment as an issue here in Ontario and build on the Ministry of Labour's existing operational approach to workplace violence.

It would also reduce workplace injury and illness by making workplace violence an element of the ministry's Safe at Work Ontario strategy. I'm proud to say that this government is moving forward to address workplace violence and harassment here in Ontario.

GOVERNMENT SERVICES

Mr. Robert Bailey: My question is to the Minister of Government Services. Minister, recently you decided that the Sarnia Lambton Chamber of Commerce would no longer hold the contract for driver's licence issuing in Sarnia. The chamber has delivered this service efficiently for almost 100 years, and because of your government's actions, they are now forced to lay off staff.

Minister, this is despite the chamber being documented as one of the best offices following your own ServiceOntario audits. Why, in a recession, would you force the private sector to lay off workers and diminish services?

Hon. Harinder S. Takhar: I want to thank the member for asking the question. I have answered this question so many times in the House, but let me repeat this again.

This is not about a reduction in service; this is about increasing service, it's about streamlining, it's been modernizing. By doing so, we will provide health card services where now only the drivers' licences and the vehicle licences are being provided. We want to make sure that the people have more options available to them. We will provide those services on the Internet.

This will be about improving public service, and the hours will be available to suit the people. They can even make appointments to come to the offices now. So it's all about improving services. I'm sure the residents of Sarnia will have better service available to them once we move ahead with the reorganization that we have planned.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mr. Robert Bailey: My supplementary is to the same minister. Minister, I've heard all those buzzwords before, we've heard them repeated in the House, and we're just not buying it.

The Sarnia licensing office currently handles over 500 transactions per day; that's over 100,000 per year. I believe that the reality of this may have been underestimated by ServiceOntario. I don't believe that they can handle the additional transactions that will be expected, let alone deal with the parking nightmare. The current office has all kinds of parking on the level. Going to a mall with underground parking just won't be easy. The parking nightmare will be added at the Bayside mall.

Minister, again, on behalf of the chamber of commerce and the residents that will be affected, I ask you, will you please commit to reviewing your plan to kill private sector jobs in Sarnia—Lambton?

Hon. Harinder S. Takhar: The member said that his supplementary is the same as the original question. I guess my answer is going to be the same as the original answer.

So the answer is that this is about improving service, it's about streamlining, it's about modernizing. But I hear what some of your concerns are, and I will work with you. I have directed my officials to look at each and every situation, and if there are concerns, we will find a way to address some of those concerns.

LABOUR RELATIONS

M me France Gélinas: Ma question est pour le premier ministre par intérim. On Saturday at 11 o'clock, Sudbury will be host to labour leaders from every corner of the globe. There will be people from Mexico, the United Kingdom, Switzerland, Brazil, the United States and way more. They will meet in Sudbury to raise safety standards, to talk about enhancing living conditions for workers internationally. It will be a demonstration that will be supporting our workers, our businesses, our economy and our community. I'm really proud to say that my leader, Andrea Horwath, will be there. Everyone is invited and everyone is welcome.

My question is simple: Which cabinet minister will be representing the provincial government at this international historic event taking place in Ontario?

Hon. George Smitherman: I'm very pleased to offer strong encouragement and congratulations to the community of Sudbury. It's yet another example of what will be occurring all across the breadth of the province of Ontario this weekend and every weekend, which is the extraordinary opportunity to engage people from around the world in dialogue about a variety of items.

I am not aware whether my schedule, or that of my colleagues, is accommodating this event, but if the honourable member would like to send a note over, I'd be happy to do so. I just want to let her know that I'm looking forward to my Monday visit to your community and my visit to Cambrian College.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

M me France Gélinas: All of the labour leaders who are coming to Sudbury are facing similar issues around the world. We see multinational giants buying up more and more natural resources, mining etc., worldwide, and it's becoming more and more concentrated in fewer hands.

Workers in Sudbury—United Steelworkers unit 6500 is on strike. Sudbury and Nickel Belt have been on strike before. People in Sudbury know the sacrifices made as a result of labour disputes, but people in the Sudbury region band together and support each other. We support the strikers because their fight is a good fight and it will support our community as a whole.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Question?

M me France Gélinas: My question again is, how come we don't know who will be representing the province of Ontario's present government at a historic event—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Minister?

Hon. George Smitherman: I think that in her talk and promotion of this very fine event, she has made the point exceptionally well that Sudbury and the people of Sudbury already, through the program that has been discussed, have a great opportunity to put their perspective on the record.

All of us have a variety of opportunities, and sometimes those opportunities don't allow us to take advantage of other scheduling opportunities. Nevertheless, we do want to encourage the honourable member on behalf of the government on the successful completion of this conference. We know that those who come from other places will enjoy many things, the dialogue and certainly the community of Sudbury, which I'm very privileged to say I married into two years ago.

ENDANGERED SPECIES

Mr. Phil McNeely: My question is for the Minister of Natural Resources. Climate change is on the minds of many Ontarians and a concern for many constituents. There has been a wide range of scientific reports that have stated that sea ice in the Arctic is vanishing at a record pace and permafrost is thawing.

Climate change will affect many species, but in particular the polar bear. Polar bears are part of the Canadian heritage and are an iconic species. It's clear that climate change is having a direct impact on our polar bear populations.

I understand that the polar bear has now been designated a threatened species in Ontario under the Endangered Species Act. Minister, can you tell us what this designation means for the polar bear?

Hon. Donna H. Cansfield: I'd like to thank the member for the question. The member is correct. I did make an announcement that in fact the polar bear has been redetermined from "at risk" to "threatened." The reason is because—

Mr. Peter Kormos: Polar bears watch the legislative channel.

Hon. James J. Bradley: Yes, they do.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member for Welland.

Hon. Donna H. Cansfield: Mr. Speaker, this may not be of particular interest to some individuals, but the fact of the matter is—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Order. I'd like to hear the answer. She's sitting right beside me and I can't hear her.

Interjections.

Hon. Donna H. Cansfield: Mr. Speaker, would you like me to sit down until there is order? I can keep going.

In fact, an independent group of scientists determined that the polar bear has had its level changed from "at risk" to "threatened." The reason is because of the impact of climate change, primarily on sea ice. What's happened is, the polar bear no longer has the opportunity to do the feeding and reproduction that it has done, and their numbers are threatened.

What difference does this make? It's because in Ontario we have a very unique—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Phil McNeely: Minister, you mentioned a recovery strategy. The World Wildlife Fund estimates that two thirds of the global population of polar bears is found in Canada. Many of those are found in Ontario's far north, indicating that the Ontario government must step forward to reverse the decline in polar bear populations or risk the extinction of the species.

Minister, can you please be specific in explaining what steps your ministry is taking to protect the polar bear?

Hon. Donna H. Cansfield: I realize that members of the NDP government and the opposition are not particularly interested in looking at the issues of the Endangered Species Act. In fact, they voted against it. However, we take this very seriously. The polar bear is part of our ecosystem. They are very unique to Ontario. They are threatened.

We spent a great deal of money and had about 30 years of experience, through Dr. Marty Obbard, to look at this particular species and how we can ensure their recovery. Why is this important? Because the footprint we have here in southern Ontario is changing the life and the habitat of a species in northern Ontario, and it does make a difference.

What can we do when the recovery plan goes through for the species? It's as simple sometimes as turning out our lights.

Interjections.

Hon. Donna H. Cansfield: I don't know about others who can laugh and joke that we are losing species on a regular basis. To us, it's important here. It's part of our ecosystem.

DISASTER RELIEF

Mr. Jim Wilson: My question is for the Deputy Premier, and you can direct it to whoever you have to direct it to.

As you know, on August 20 we had the terrible tornado that did a great did of property damage across the province, from Vaughan and Durham, but it also affected the Town of the Blue Mountains. I know your government is aware of the damage to the apple orchards there because two of your ministers, the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Natural Resources, have toured the area. Yesterday the Minister of Municipal Affairs declared the area a disaster area.

The local community is setting up its disaster committee. We estimate at this time there is about $15 million of damage. Much of it won't be covered under crop insurance or Agricorp programs or existing government programs. So my question is: Some of these apple farms, about 15 farms—many of them were completely wiped out. It takes nine years for an apple tree to come back, to be profitable, after it's planted. There's going to be a need for extraordinary assistance, and I'm just wondering if your government is planning on providing that.

Hon. George Smitherman: I do want to thank the honourable member for the question. By coincidence, as the honourable member would know, my mother resides at Rural Route 2, Ravenna, which is very, very close to the affected farm properties. Just a few days after this tornado went through, I did witness personally the efforts that were being made to clear the land.

We recognize especially that it is important for the province to reach out and lend assistance to municipalities and those in municipalities who are impacted. I did hear yesterday that the Minister of Municipal Affairs had made such declarations and was involved in making calls to communities.

I will, by way of supplementary, ask the Minister of Agriculture to comment on what efforts her ministry might—

Interjection: There is no supplementary at this point.

Hon. George Smitherman: Oh. Well, we'll be working with her ministry to ensure that there's recognition that when it comes to things like apple orchards, which take quite a long time to mature and to produce revenue, our policies are appropriate in terms of recognizing these particular concerns. And we'll work with the honourable member on that as well.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): There being no deferred votes, this House stands recessed until 1 p.m.

The House recessed from 1133 to 1300.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

M me France Gélinas: It is my pleasure to introduce people from all over Ontario who are presently sitting in the west members' gallery to raise awareness about Lyme disease. Some of them are there and some have not quite made it.

We have a Court Steggles, as well as Mary Steggles, Eleanor Johnston, Dwight Lyons, Kari Krogh, Nancy Diklic, Avril Rutherford and Brian Rutherford and Heather Ott. We have Sawyer Anderson—my handwriting is giving me trouble—Julie Demeester, Patti Anderson, Carolyn Charbonneau and Joelle Charbonneau who are here in the members' gallery.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Welcome.

On behalf of the member from Pickering—Scarborough East and page Megan Fernandez, we'd welcome her father, Manfredo Fernandez, to the gallery and to Queen's Park today. Welcome.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

ROSH HASHANAH

Mr. Peter Shurman: Sundown on September 18 marks the beginning of Rosh Hashanah—translation: the head of the year, known also as the Jewish New Year. It is the first day of the High Holy Days, which conclude with Yom Kippur.

Rosh Hashanah is a day as rich in tradition as it is in meaning. Traditional meals and blessings are a part of every home as we reflect on the year that has gone by and the year that is to come.

Our Jewish tradition calls Rosh Hashanah the "day of creation," a day on which we celebrate the Garden of Eden, the creation of Adam and Eve and, most significantly, the greatness of human potential. It is the day on which the blowing of the shofar, a trumpet made from a ram's horn, heralds the new year and calls on us to atone for our sins in preparation for the coming judgment.

On Rosh Hashanah, families and friends will share apples dipped in honey to symbolize wishes for a sweet new year. Today, I want to take this opportunity to extend the traditional greeting of Shana Tova, a good New Year, to everyone of every faith in the hope that with the coming of this Rosh Hashanah we are all inspired to reach for the greatest heights of human potential and live with forgiveness, respect, generosity and compassion.

Have a sweet and good New Year. Shana Tova Umetukah.

TAXATION

Mr. Rosario Marchese: I want to talk briefly about the meeting I had with the York Quay Neighbourhood Association this past Tuesday because they wanted me to talk about two issues that are important to them. One is the harmonized sales tax and the other one is the amendments that I have made to the Condominium Act, Bill 186.

On the harmonized tax, condominium owners are very concerned. We've been saying this for quite some time, that rates will go up. Condominium fees will go up, and I want to explain how they will go up.

Eighty per cent of condominium fees are connected to services that will be taxed, such as window cleaning, maintenance fees, and the contracting out of any kind of work that needs to be done around these buildings. All of these fees, including legal fees, are going to go up. We estimate, based on numbers given to us by property managers, that $25 to $31 or $32 a month will be added to their condo fees.

This is the same problem that will happen to rental buildings. Rents will go up. Why? Because a lot of what these people have to pay on—maintenance, cleaning of windows and so on—is going to be charged at 8% tax and, therefore, fees will go up.

I'm hoping as well, with respect to the changes that I made to Bill 186, that the justice committee will deal with that shortly.

ROSH HASHANAH

Mr. Monte Kwinter: Tomorrow night at sundown on the first and second day of Tishrei, in the year 5770 of the Jewish calendar, the 10 days of repentance begin with Rosh Hashanah and end with Yom Kippur.

Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year, ends at nightfall on Sunday, September 20, 2009. The origin of Rosh Hashanah is Biblical. It appears in Leviticus 23:23 to 25. It is "a sacred occasion commemorated with loud blasts of the shofar, the ram's horn."

In Talmudic times, Rosh Hashanah, which means the "head of the year," became a celebration of the world's creation and a day of self-examination, repentance and judgment.

On Rosh Hashanah, Jews listen to the blowing of the shofar, or ram's horn, during lengthy prayer services and are reminded that the Lord is King. They eat a festive meal with symbolic food, such as apples and honey, and do no work. After repenting for bad deeds through prayers, they symbolically cast off sins through a solemn ceremony.

Rosh Hashanah is both a solemn and a happy day. Rosh Hashanah is a day of judgment, and is a time for Jews to review the mistakes they made in the past year and to resolve to make improvements in the coming year. It is a time for introspection, asking for forgiveness and praying for a healthy and happy year to come.

Those observing the Jewish New Year are solemn in their repentance but happy in their confidence that God is merciful and good.

The traditional greeting on Rosh Hashanah is to wish everyone a good year, and to all, I say Shana Tova.

DOCTOR SHORTAGE

Mr. Jim Wilson: I rise to bring to the attention of this House a very serious issue concerning the government's proposed changes to underserviced-area and return-of-service programs. These are programs that help our communities attract doctors, and now the McGuinty government wants to take them away through proposals that will cause communities in my riding and across Ontario to lose the only source of government funding that directly supports physician recruitment. The government's proposals will pit north against south and rural against urban, and they will severely hamper doctor recruitment in most of the province.

What the government is proposing is a plan that would use what they call a rurality index to determine whether a community can access physician recruitment funding. The McGuinty government wants us to believe that this new formula will somehow improve the situation while completely ignoring a community's need for doctors.

In my riding, the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care acknowledges that New Tecumseth, Essa and Adjala-Tosorontio have a shortage of 11 doctors, and yet the government wants to take away every single tool that these communities have to attract new doctors to the area. The situation is no different in Clearview, Wasaga Beach, Springwater, Collingwood and throughout much of Ontario.

To quote Gary Ryan, the president of Stevenson Memorial Hospital in Alliston, in a letter he sent to the minister, he said that doctors "may well go to other provinces or the USA. This would create a further loss of physicians in Ontario."

The proposed changes to the underserviced-area and return-of-service programs do nothing to help the one million Ontarians without a family doctor, and the government should stop meddling with these programs.

ORLÉANS FAMILY HEALTH HUB

Mr. Phil McNeely: Last month, I had the privilege of hosting Premier McGuinty in my riding of Ottawa—Orléans to mark a very important occasion. The Premier announced that $1 million will be made available to the Montfort Hospital to develop a business plan for the Orléans Family Health Hub. This funding is key to moving the project forward, a project that will improve the lives of each and every member of our community. It is also a signal of the province's clear commitment to seeing the project through to completion.

This new model of delivery recognizes that people need health services close to home, and the health hub will save the government and the taxpayers money because these services can be delivered most cost-effectively in the community.

My sincere thanks to everyone involved in the project for their hard work, and to Premier McGuinty and the health ministry for their vision and support.

HEALTH CARE

Mr. Norm Miller: My riding of Parry Sound—Muskoka has been very fortunate to have the benefit of several nursing stations, including Rosseau, Whitestone and Moose Deer Point. I've long heard from residents about the wonderful care they have received through nursing stations, which have up till now been very successfully managed by the West Parry Sound Health Centre.

There's tremendous community support for our nursing stations. In fact, just recently, Madison Lacey and 16 other participants took

part in a walk that raised a total of $11,100 for the Britt Nursing Station.

So you can imagine my surprise to hear that the Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care plans on shifting responsibility for Rosseau, Whitestone and Britt nursing stations away from West Parry Sound Health Centre back to the Ministry of Health in Kingston. This government claims to be advocating for integrated health care; however, increasingly we see the reverse happening. Local decision-making is being thwarted and replaced with regional administration that does not have the community's best interests at heart.

West Parry Sound Health Centre at one time was considered to be the model of integrated health care in rural Ontario, with responsibility for primary health care, community care access centres, nursing stations, the antivenin depot, long-term-care facilities and ambulance services.

I'm concerned that with this move, Parry Sound district health care will suffer as we lose local decision-making.

TORONTO INTERNATIONAL

FILM FESTIVAL

Mr. David Zimmer: The Toronto International Film Festival, TIFF, ranks among the most prestigious international film festivals in the world. For 10 days, the best in film from around the world is shown right here in Toronto.

The festival has become an international destination for the movie industry. New and established filmmakers present their masterpieces. Every year, the festival sees new and exciting advancements in film arts and is a showcase of technological improvements in filmmaking.

The festival also is a chance for Canada's filmmakers to show their work. The Ministry of Culture is funding the TIFF Bell Lightbox. The government's $10-million investment in the TIFF Bell Lightbox is an important recognition of the value of Ontario's film industry and the cultural sector as a major economic driver in this province. As a result of our government's investment, about 1,300 full-time jobs have been created during construction, and it is expected there will be 156 new full-time jobs when the facility opens.

Within five years of its opening, it is anticipated that the TIFF Bell Lightbox complex will hold over 4,000 events, attract two million visitors annually and generate about $200 million in economic activity. This centre will serve as the new home of the Toronto International Film Festival.

The efficiency and dedication of the festival's staff and volunteers is largely what makes this happen. The international film festival has earned its longstanding reputation as a leader in the international film community. I'm proud to congratulate it.

EVENTS IN MISSISSAUGA SOUTH

Mr. Charles Sousa: It was another great summer in south Mississauga. We enjoy a number of renowned annual celebrations on our waterfront.

In May, I had the pleasure of welcoming runners of the Mississauga Marathon to our beautiful Lakefront Promenade Park. In June, the Mississauga Waterfront Festival delighted families with entertainment. Young and old alike enjoyed music, rides and lots of home-grown food. Speaking of Ontario foods, I was honoured to cut the ribbon at Port Credit's first ever farmers' market where fresh Ontario produce is being sold. It attracted a lot of visitors and helped support our local economy, as well as our Ontario farmers.

We had a phenomenal Canada Day celebration on the waterfront as well. The annual Paint the Town Red festivities offered the capacity crowd a tremendous combination of great bands and a stunning display of fireworks. In August, the Port Credit BIA hosted its very own Busker Fest, which filled the streets with performers of all kinds, including dancers and magicians.

Finally, this past weekend, we gathered on the waterfront once more to celebrate the Southside Shuffle Blues and Jazz Festival. I had the honour of opening the festival with Mayor McCallion and our colleague the Honourable Peter Fonseca. These great events are just one of the many reasons why Mississauga is becoming known as a great destination spot, attracting tourists from throughout Ontario and across our borders.

I'd like to thank all those organizers, sponsors and volunteers who make these celebrations possible. We had a great summer in south Mississauga, and the dedication of outstanding volunteers is the reason why.

RAMADAN

Mr. Yasir Naqvi: It is my distinct honour to rise in the House this afternoon to commemorate the end of the holy month of Ramadan with Eid-Ul-Fitr, the festival of the fast-breaking.

As Muslims everywhere look for the crescent moon this weekend that marks the end of the ninth month of the Islamic calendar, the sighting will launch the celebration following a month of fasting, reflection and peacemaking. The holy month of Ramadan is one of the most cherished and important traditions in the Islamic faith.

As a time to purify the soul, refocus attention on God and practise self-sacrifice, Muslims around the world and here in Ontario abstain from food, drink and other physical needs from sunrise to sunset. Muslims are called upon to use this period to re-evaluate their lives in light of Islamic values, where we are to make peace with those who have wronged us, strengthen ties with family, friends and community, and do away with the bad habits and temptations of our daily lives.

At the end of this period, Eid-Ul-Fitr is a festival of joy and thanksgiving to God for the will and strength to have endured the challenge of the past month and for the gifts and revelations that self-sacrifice has bestowed on the individual and the community. On this day, Muslims will dress in festive or brand new clothing, attend special ceremonies and prayers and visit with friends and family.

On behalf of my colleagues in this House, the government of Ontario and all Ontarians, I wish to convey our warmest regards to the Muslim community on this day of celebration, and it is my hope that those who have observed Ramadan have found peace and refreshed their faith on the day of Eid.

Eid Mubarak.

PETITIONS

DOCTOR SHORTAGE

Mr. Jim Wilson: "Whereas the McGuinty government is conducting a review of the province's underserviced area program (UAP) that will result in numerous communities across rural and small-town Ontario losing financial incentives to recruit and retain much-needed physicians; and

"Whereas financial incentives to attract and keep doctors are essential to providing quality front-line health care services, particularly in communities in rural ridings, such as Simcoe—Grey; and

"Whereas people across Ontario have been forced to pay Dalton McGuinty's now-forgotten health tax since 2004, expecting health care services to be improved rather than cut; and

"Whereas taxpayers deserve good value for their hard-earned money that goes into health care, unlike the wasteful and abusive spending under the McGuinty Liberals' watch at eHealth Ontario;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the McGuinty government immediately stop its ill-advised attack on rural health care and on rural communities who need financial incentives to successfully recruit and retain doctors."

I agree with that petition and I'm going to sign it.

LYME DISEASE

M me France Gélinas: It is a pleasure and a privilege to present this big petition signed by 1,489 people from all across Ontario, and I am especially pleased to present it in front of my guests in the gallery.

"Whereas the tick-borne illness known as chronic Lyme disease, which mimics many catastrophic illnesses such as multiple sclerosis, Crohn's, Alzheimer's, arthritic diseases, depression, chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia, is increasingly endemic in Canada, but the scientifically validated diagnostic tests and treatment choices are currently not available in Ontario, forcing patients to seek these either in the US or in Europe; and

"Whereas the Canadian Medical Association informed the public, governments and the medical profession in the May 30, 2000, edition of their professional journal that Lyme disease is endemic throughout Canada, particularly in southern Ontario; and

"Whereas the Ontario public health system and the Ontario health insurance plan currently do not fund those specific tests that accurately serve the process of establishing a clinical diagnosis, but only recognize testing procedures known in the medical literature to provide false negatives" 45% to 95% of the time; and

"Whereas physicians practising in Ontario do not receive current and updated information on the incidence of Lyme disease, being unaware that annually some 25,000 new cases are reported in North America, nor do physicians receive training in the diagnosis and treatment of acute or chronic Lyme disease and, therefore, remain unfamiliar with the highly effective protocol developed by the International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society; and

"Whereas the Regulated Health Professions Act of Ontario states, 'It is the duty of the Minister [of Health] to ensure that the health professions are regulated and co-ordinated in the public interest.'

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario to request the Minister of Health to direct that the Ontario public health system and OHIP include all currently available and scientifically verified tests for acute and chronic Lyme diagnosis; to do everything necessary to create public awareness of Lyme disease in Ontario; and to have internationally developed diagnostic and successful treatment protocols available to patients and physicians."

I fully support this petition, will affix my name to it, and send it to the clerks' table with page Helen.

CEMETERIES

Mr. Jim Brownell: I have a petition signed by a number of Ontarians from the Ottawa-Nepean area, and it reads as follows:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas Ontario's cemeteries are an important part of our cultural heritage, and Ontario's inactive cemeteries are constantly at risk of closure and removal; and

"Ontario's cemeteries are an irreplaceable part of the province's cultural heritage;

"We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"The government must pass Bill 149, the Inactive Cemeteries Protection Act, 2009, to prohibit the relocation of inactive cemeteries in the province of Ontario."

As I agree with this petition, I shall sign it and send it to the clerks' table with Nicole.

HOSPITAL FUNDING

Mr. Norm Miller: I've had some petitions mailed to me regarding the Burk's Falls health centre. It reads:

"To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas the Burk's Falls and District Health Centre provides vital health services for residents of Burk's Falls and the Almaguin Highlands of all ages, as well as seasonal residents and tourists; and

"Whereas the health centre helps to reduce demand on the Huntsville hospital emergency room; and

"Whereas the operating budget for Muskoka Algonquin Healthcare is insufficient to meet the growing demand for service in the communities of Muskoka—East Parry Sound; and

"Whereas budget pressures could jeopardize continued operation of the Burk's Falls health centre;

"Now therefore we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

"That the McGuinty government and Minister of Health provide adequate increases in the operating budget of Muskoka Algonquin Healthcare to maintain current health services, including those provided by the Burk's Falls health centre."

I support this petition.

PENSION PLANS

Mr. Jim Wilson: "To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"Whereas several paramedics in Simcoe county had their pensions affected when paramedic services were transferred to the county of Simcoe, as their pensions were not transferred with them from HOOPP and OPTrust to OMERS, meaning they will receive significantly reduced pensions because their transfer did not recognize their years of continuous service; and

"Whereas when these paramedics started with their new employer, the county of Simcoe, their past pensionable years were not recognized because of existing pension legislation; and

"Whereas the government's own Expert Commission on Pensions has recommended that the government move swiftly to address this issue; and