Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH .GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, MAY 2, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOUl'IABLE JAMES M. RUSSElL Number 62

Hay 2, 1q74 The Fouse met at 3:00 P.M. Hr. Sneaker in the rhair. Tane 1455 (Afternoon) 't-lR. SPFAKF.R : Order. nlease! NINISTF.RJAL S1'ATEMENTS HR.. SPF,AKF.R : The Hon. ' 11n1ster of Education. PK - 1 HON. G. R. OTTF.NRET"'ER (¥INTSTKP. OF FnUCATION): nr. Sneaker, T would like to inform honourable 1'1emhPrs of an increase of thirty-three ne.r cP.nt :! n the amount naicl to h:I J>h school hurs/\ry students.

As honourable memheni nrohablv kno,,, there arP two forms of hip.;h school bursarv students They are both to high school students who attend a h:lgh schoo] outsiclP. of the1r own co1'1T1lnnitv, where there is no hip.h school in their commun:ltv. A verv small numher for thol'lP. who would commute, wherP. there is no re1mlar bus service. Of course. hv far the very largest ner cent for those who hoard outsirle, who hClard i.n another commun:I tv , in most cases, they return home for the weekend:,;.

The increase is thirty-three and one-third ner cent so that in essence is from $311.f'ln to ~lfn.oo a movth, a total of $4'10 a year for that small nercentage 'I-Tho commute and from $6(1.()0 a month to $RO.Of ner month or $800 ner vear fClr the vast majority of bursarv stucl.ents whCl atten<l a hj~h school outs:lde of the:l .r m-m commun:lt:' and who 1n fact hoard in that communitv. These increase!'l are apnlicable for all hursarv studentP starting the next schoCll year. 1-'R. SP-PAY.FR: The honourable Member for ~t. Barbe North. 1-m_. F' . B. ~OTJF: •ir.

Sneaker, thil'l seems lil<e welcome news indeed, this increase of thirtv-three and one-third ner cent the amount to be paid in bursaries to students commutin~ to the var:lous comrnunitfes for the ournose of schoolinp and those who have to actually board or reside :l.n a cofT\lTlunity other than their O'l-m home community durin~ the school year.

Jam sure, Sir, I sneak for my o~m collea?ues when I sav that we welcome thi. s news. ~ir, J on] y hope that the Minister of Finance and the PremiP.r ,,rill see fit to cl.o the same thing for the provincial civil servants for this nrov:lnce as the Liheral Federal Government :l.n Otta~,a have seen fit to do for the federa] civil servants, Sjr. AN FION. ~®.!BER: Hear! Hear! Welcome! 4957

'T'ane lL~ss (Afternoon) PK - 2 ANST-Jf S TO OUESTIONS 0R WHICB NOTICT. HA.<; BEEN GIVEN: ORAL OlTFSTTf'NS ~'R. Sl'FAKER: 'T'h_e Pon. 1,Pa<'ler rd' the Onposi.tion. HON. F. M, POBFPTS: (T.FA!'IJ'll OF '!'HF OPPOSITifll\J): 1•fr. Sneaker, a question. Is the minister going to as} a question? HON. J. C. CP0S!ITF (M!N'(S'l'Fll n-r li'Ill!ANCE): bill. "'!o, t want ,to intro<'luce a Order, please! ~e have passed that notice of motion, does the minister have leave to make his notice of motion? Agreed. MR. SPEAKF.R: The Hon. Minister of Finance. MR. J.C. CROSBIF: I th.in], these are fairly harmless, Mr. Sneaker.

I would like to give not1 ce that I will on tomorrow introduce a h1.11, "An Act Respectinr The Desh:nation Of Jlenefi ciaries On The Retirement Savings Plans." A bill, "An Act Resnecting Certain Provisions Of Certain 'MininP.: Leases Made And To Be '!fade Fnder The Agreement Fomine; 1'hP-

Schedule Of The Act, No. 41 of 1938 As From Time To Time Heretofore A~ende<'I.' MR. SPF.AKER: The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROJIERTS: Thank you! A question to the Minister of 'Mines and Energy. I l-mnder if he could tell us when the government will he in a position to announce their decision as to the action they nropose to talre in their effort to try and nrevent,their belated effort to try and prevent the forthcoming quite steep rise in gasoline orices? MR. SPFA'KER: The Hon. Minister of Mines and Rnergv. HON. L. D. BARRY (MINISTER OF MINES _AND ENERGY): Mr. Sneaker, the Hon.

Leader of the Opposition is trying awful hard to cast resoonsibility for rising oil prices on to the shoulders of the provincial government, when he knows full well that the federal government have consented, the Liberal Federal Government have consented to permit the - MR. ROBERTS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HON. MEMBER: Sit down! 4958

}fay 2, 1974 Tane 1435 (Afternoon) PK - 3 l,\JI. SPFAKF:R: Order, please! MR. ROBFRTS: I rise on a point of order. We have hr-,d a number of rulin!!;s, Sir, on this noint. I would ask for one now. The minister says that I know full well. I submit, Sjr, that is not narliamentary. He may think that I should know. He may think any number of things. Sir, I certain.ly do not know that the Federal Liberal Government are resnonsible for or have consented to oil increases. I want to know what the Government of the Province are to do about it, Sir. His answer has to be in parliamentary language.

Clrder, please! 'Ref ore I deal with this, it is a matter of a rl1 fference of onin:l.on between two honourable me!1lbers, it is not reallv a noint of order. MR, BARRY: }'r. Speaker, I find that un~elievahle. Here we have bills beinP. introduced into the House of r.ommons and as a matter of record, and the Fon. Leader of tne Onnos:1 tion denyin,z that he knows that this has taken nlace. I find that awfully strange. You have a National EnerP.y r.onference that was televised rirrht across th-ls nation and the Leader of the npnosition is unaware of what went on at the conference. I find that awfully strange. Hr.

Sneaker, in an attemnt to answer the Leader of the Opnosition's question - before the Hon. Leader of the Opoosition ever thought or ever conceived of the idea of the province attemotjng to regulate netroleum prices, this government went on record as saving th;it ,·.'e :If it benossihle to rlo so ,.ffectively w:1.11 introduce le,:,-1 slat ion to regulate the sale of petroleum oroducts within the province. But. Mr. Sneaker, I stress that this ~:'1.11 only he done if it is found that we can do so effect:lvelv. that it will have a beneficial impact on the nrice of netroleum oroducts to the constllller.

We do not believe as perhaps honourable members oonos:lte do in creating bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy, in nutting burdens on the taxnayer unless the increased cost of setting up the administrative mechanism is going to see benefits flow through to the Newfoundland consumer.

TapP 1455 (Afternoon) Pk - 4 ~'r. Sneaker, I can assure vou that as soon as this government determines that Pe can take stens within our oower to effectivelv reduce the nrice of netroleum nrorlucts to the Newfoundland peonle '-!e will do so. MP.. RClBF.RTS : Mr. Sneaker. I ,.,ronder if I could irive notice under 31 (

g) and if we could set this question do= for the late show this after­ noon as ,.,., 11. I find the minister's an s,.,er., as do the people of ~e•~foundland, nrofoundlv unsat:I sfactory. I shall give ••'Tit ten notice, Your Fonour.,as reou:lred. 'fl?. SPEAT<Fl': The honourahle Memher for Rell Island. Mr. Sneaker, I •••onner if the ""inister of .A.P;riculture and Forestrv will tell us if there is anvthi.n~ new on the Reid land controversy? •~. C:PFAl{Fll_: The Fon. Hin:fster of Forestry and Agriculture. F 01''..!...F . MAYN}RD ("1INUTER OF FO'l.FSTl?.Y MID AGRICULTIIRF): No, Mr.

Snpalrer, T understand __ that the Premier mav havP a fet,' coT11T11ents on i.t hut there is nothin ~ new on my nart. f-<P. NFJ.RY: '--lr. Sneaker , before the Hon. Premier leaves the Fouse, he has ~een here hTO minutes now, Si.r. ~- NF.APY, The minister referred the question ":R. MOflPFS: Inaudi.hle. MR. tWARY: Listen old buddy. The r11nister of Apriculture and Resources, I asJ,:ed him a question; if there were anvthinii new on the Reid land controversv,and he referred me to the Hon. Premier. He said the Pon. Premier may have a few comments to make. Hf1!l. F.

D. '10ORF.S (ppnq~ ) : The only comment T have to m11.ke on it, •fr. Sneaker, is that I have been in touch with Mr. Peid. He is cominr in to meet ~ith the minister and others who may ~e desi~nated early next wee!<. Tn the meantime he has undertaken until such negotiations were finalized with the p:overnment, thev will undertake to do it nubliclv; and announce that there will be no sale of any Peid nrooerties in the nrovince until such time as that is done. AN HON. MF'."(J!F.R: Hear! Hear! ""R .• NF.APV: T,Te are finally gettini somewhere, ~r. Soeal<er. I wonder - 4960

May 2, Jll74 Tape 1455 (Afternoon) PK - 5 the Premler is in such a co-ooerative 1T10od today, J wonder :l.f the Premier will inform the House if his P,overnmet1t intend . to take the cue from Otta1,•1t and r-;rant the emplovees in the nublic service an :Increase 1n salaries to help them cone with the cost of livinr-:? '-l'R. MOORES: As the honourahle rnel'!ber well knows,several unionE have made renresentat1.on,have contracts reonened. This is !'omething that is being considered hut it is certainlv not anything that the poverrmPnt ar.e in itnv nosition to make or to comment on at this time, Mr. Soeakt>r. MR.

NFARY: ----- ·· A sunnlementary ouestion. Would the Pr.emit>r :lncUcate to the Hom;e when the government ,..,ill be in a nosition to comment on this matteT? •~ • "ClO"F f: : Mr.. ~neitker, the fact 1s,as the 'f-tonourahle mt>mher well 'knows ,that th:ls sort of th:lnP is someth-lnp: that. takes it fair 1t1'1onnt of i;,turl" on what the r11mi. f:lr.ati one: coul cl he a.nd what tJ,e" 'llli <>lit be if such a. coursP werecons:fdered. rer.ta::l.nlv as soon as the 11overnment has made :fte decision in anv ,,,av or either Pav ,:,•e will only be too glad, naturally, to make t'f-te Rouse aware of it. ~. NEARY: Mr.

Sneaker, I wonder if the Pre111ier could indicate a time nPriod,say give or take. a month one way or another? r.oul.d he nin :ft c1own, re a little more specific? 1'R. 1~omm~: Mr. Speaker, a time period of one month 0r so is not hejng snecific. I woulrl much rather we had the onnortunitv to look 11t it oronerly. As I sav, as soon as we can we will he making our nosition clPar. MR. NF.ARY : Hr. ~neaker, I wonder if the "finister of Industrial nevelopment could tell the House the nrovi.nce' s involvement in the industrial oar!- dm-m here at Donovan's. ~That 1s the provinee's involvement?

And are oublic tenders called on all the work that is let on the industri11l narlc? Is there any federal money involved? Anv municinal 11Dney involved? Or is it str:lcklv a provincial matter? If so, who calls the public tenders? Is it the nrovince? Is it the City Council? Or is it the Government of r.anada? FON. c. w. nor,ny ("fINlSTER OF INDUR'I'RIAL J)EVEl,OP!-mNT): Mr. Snealrer, the industrial park at Donovan's is a project that was develoned between the Denartment of Municipal Affairs and the 4961

May 2. 1974 Tape no. 1456 Page 1 - MW Department of Regional and Economic Expansion in Ottawa. The sites have been sold under public tender through the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation and are being administered presently by that body. MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: again? MR. NEARY: I was interrupted there by one of my colleagues. Does the honourable gentleman wish me to run through it I just want to get the part dealing with tenders. Who calls the public tenders? Are tenders called on all the work that is done? MR. DOODY: MR NEARY: The Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation.

Would the minister responsible for the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation indicate to the House if pu~lic tenders are called on all the work that is done in the Industrial Park? If so, do they go to the lowest bidder? MR.EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I cannot give an accurate answer without checking but I believe that tenders have been called on all of these projects and that the lowest or if not the lowest, the most suitable tender is awarded, I would check that further for the honourable member and get a detailed answer for him. MR. NEARY: I thank the honourable minister, Mr. Speaker.

Could I get the information tomorrow, if possible? Would the minister undertake to bring the information into the House? MR. EARLE: MR. NEARY: lt depends on how much is involved, I do not know. That should not be very much work, Mr. Speaker. I have one more question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the fact that the Newfoundland Safety Council released statistics indicating that the fatalities on the highways are up slightly over last year and there is every indication that it is going to get much worst, would the minister indicate what preventive measures his department are taking in the way of new innovations and so to curb the fatalities on our highways? 4962

May 1, 1974 Tape no. 1456 Page 2 KON. T. HICKEY (Minister of Transportation and Communications): Mr. Speaker, I will attempt to to outline in some detail, when the estimates are going through the House, with regard to programmes. I can only say if the increase in fatalities is attributed in any way to the lack of programmes with regard to highway safety, I can only conclude that if this administration had not spent the money it had, then certainly the figures would be much higher because there has been a real effort in highway safety,in improving conditions and this programme is continuing. MR.

NEARY: Sir, would the minister indicate when the new policy of keep right in these double lanes, kept right except when passing, when the minister expects to implement that new policy. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, we hope to do something about that during the coming year, during the present year. To give a date, I am unable to do so. There are a number of things involved. I want to be sure that we are ready and equipped to take care of the situation when that change is made because it is a very important one. MR. F. B. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the announcement made by the Minister of Edudation, would the Minister of Education indicate how many students under each one of the two categories that he mentioned are involved with this increase in the bursary this year and what the total cost will be to the province for this increase in the bursary? HON. G, OTTENHEIMER (Minister of Education): Mr. Speaker, the total number would be approximately 400 students. The breakdown between those who would, percentage wise, commute and those who would live outside I do not have.

I would say roughly that it would be at least ninety per cent of those who live outside their community. I have not worked it out. What it would be, therefore, ninety per cent,let us say, of 400 times 800 and then the rest times 400. I have not worked it out. I think the honourable gentleman can do that. 4963

May 1, 1974 Tape no, 1456 Pa~ 3 MR, F. B. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications has the answer to the question that I have been asking for some weeks now. I do not think there is any need for me to repeat it. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I regret that I do not have the details today. I am advised that they will be available tomorrow, MR. M. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Have there been any late developments regarding the Trans Labrador Highway?

Has he heard any response from the federal people in Ottawa concerning his proposal? Can we see construction started this year to use up this $100 that is in the estimates? ~.HUDY: Mr. Speaker, let me just say that again I propose to give a little more detail with regard to the position on the Trans Labrador Highway when the estimates are going through. It is sufficient at this time for me to say to the honourable member that we have had an acknowledgement from Mr. Marchand's office. There is a meeting scheduled within a matter of a week or a week and a half, I am advised.

That meeting is between officials of the federal government, Province of Quebec and the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a couple of weeks ago the Minister of Finance undertook to try to find out the individual or individuals or companies or syndicates or corporations or whoever it was purchased 85,000 shares of BRINCO prior to the government's announcement that they were going to take over BRINCO. Has the Minister of Finance gotten that information for the House? HON. J.C. CROSBIE (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, the only information I am able to get, as a result of action taken by our solicitor, is that the transaction took place through Wood Gundy, I think, on February 23, 1974. It was a sale by one client, this block of shares. Half of them were sold to a large institution. I do not know who the rest were sold to. The sale was arranged by Wood Gundy, both the selling and the purchasing of it. 4964

May 1, 1974 Tape no. 1956 Page 4 Wood Gwidy states that neither the seller nor any other buyers had any connection whatsoever with the Province of Newfoundland. I can only pass on what Wood Gundy has said. Neither the seller nor the buyer nor buyers had any connection with this province. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, could the minister indicate as of what date the cabinet took the decision to proceed to acquire the assets of CFLCo. or BRINCO? They started with BRINCO but it now has come to CFLCo, on the Labrador water rights. MR.

CROSBIE: The decision taken by the cabinet to proceed was certainly in excess of a week after February 23. A preliminary decision had been taken before then by a collDllittee of the cabinet who were involved in the matter. That was not confirmed until after February 23. MR. NEARY: Could the minister inform the House, Sir, if the government has asked the investigative arm of the R.C.M.P. to look into this matter? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, the government has not asked the R.C.M.P. to look into the matter. What is there to look into?

The solicitors of the government wrote the authorities who regulate the stock exchange and had contacted Wood Gundy and had been given this information by Wood Gwidy and there is nothing further to look into. If the honourable gentleman opposite has some allegation to make that some member of the government was involved in any way then certainly we will have that looked into. If he made the statement outside the House, we would have it looked into even further. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, does not the minister think that it is wiusual that a month before the announcement was made by the government that the sales of BRINCO shares were down considerably and then all of a sudden 85,000 shares were purchased? MR. SPEAKER: Order please! 4965

May 1, 1974 Tape no. 1456 Page 5 MR. NEARY: I am asking the minister if the minister thinks - ~- SPEAI<ER: Orde,r please! _AN HON. MEMBER: Sit down! MR. SPEAKER: ·I feel that th:is matter now is developing into a sort of a full-scale debate. I do not think it should develop into that. The Member for :Sell Island is proceeding perhaps to make a speech during the question period, which h.e knows is not correct. We should probably get on with other question.$ or other business. CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, may I direct .a question to the Ron. Ministe .r of Municipal Affairs an,d Housing?

Can the minister tell us if he or thro1.1gh him the gove~~t has taken any action in try;l.ng to get the building land for private buildings down to a reasonable price'? MR. EARLE: I do not know if r understo od t he questi on cor r ectly but I understand it to be: Uave we taken any action t o try to get the cost of building down in any way? I think the answer to that, Mr . Speaker, is quite obvious in what we have done and announced in 4966

May 2, 1974. Tape 1457 RH - 1 our housing programme. We have coming up this year probably the biggest housing programme that this Province has ever undertaken. Not only that we are assembling far more land, serviced land,than has ever been the case in the past. I all ready announced that we deliberately cut a thousand dollars off of each lot to try to bring down the cost of building for home builders. This is in the Newtown where we have about 400 lots, I think approaching readiness.

In addition to that in the programme which I announced there is substantial help through ourselves and through the CMHC on mortgage payments which would allow people who cannot nonnally afford to swing a large mortgage, there is considerable help in that for them. I might say at the present time we are also considerinr further aids to home buyers. MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, all due respect to the honourable minister's statement of getting the price of building lots down by one thousand dollars,but is he or through him the government taking any action on land speculators?

This is the area where people cannot afford to buy a building lot today to build a home. MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I think that,at this stage, about the only action we can take on land speculators is to make land freely available, which we are trying to do. This is trying to accumulate enough land so that there will not be the need of land speculation and this is the basis of our whole programme. Other than that the steps recently taken by the Province of Ontario might be something worth investigating,and my officials are looking into that. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a question to the minister responsible for housing: In view of the number of complaints that are being made almost daily concerning poor workmanship on new homes, does the minister still feel that it is not necessary to give the consumer some protection in the way of a gaurantee against shoddy workmanship and poor workmanship on the homes, on these homes,to protect them against bulging walls and leaky windows and flooded basements and that sort of thing? Diles the 4967

May 2, 1974. Tape 1457 RH - 2 minister still think that that is not necessary? MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, as usual the honourable member for Bell Island has me quoted completely wrong. I have always been interested in and still am interested in protecting the buyers of homes. What I said at the time, which he so glibly misinterpreted,was the fact that I wanted to look into what sort of a system of control would be built up. I saw no need of a great bureaucracy which would not have effective control.

Furthermore, for the honourable member's information I might say that I am in constant correspondence with the officials in Ottawa on this warranty plan. It is now approaching, one of my officials attended meetings recently where the details of a warranty plan had been worked out and it was only yesterday that he gave me considerable information on this. We are working closely with the Federal Government on the pro­ duction of a warranty system to protect home owners.

This may well also fall into the orbit of the Department of Consumer Affairs because I think that the Federal Government is now leaning towards the idea of having this controlled by the Department of Consumer Affairs. MR, SPEAKER: It has just been brought to my attention that we have in the galleries the mayor of St. Alban's, Mayor Beatrice Collier,and it is a pleasure for me, on behalf of all the honourable members, to welcome you to the galleries today and trust that your visit here is most interesting.

According to our new Standing Orders,on Thursdays at five thirty o'clock it will be deemed that a motion to adjourn has been made. The honourable Leader of the Opposition gave me notice in writing yesterday of a matter which he intends to discuss today with the honourable Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. He indicated today that he would give me in writing before five o'clock another matter which he wishes to debate with the honourable Minister of Mines and Energy. Assuming that I get the matter in writing before five o'clock it will be debated today.

That allows only the two persons concerned, each five minutes,to debate the matter. So I now announce which I am supposed to, I think by four o'clock on Thursday, 4968

May 2, 1974. Tape 1457 RH - 3 the matters to be debated today and these are the two which will be debated commencing at five-thirty o'clock. On motion of the Hon. the Minister of Manpower and Inudstrial Relations A bill,

An Act Respecting The Barbers' And Hairdressers' Shop Closing Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy, a bill, "An Act To Vest Certain Minerals In Her Majesty", read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. the Minister of Finance, a bill, "An Act To Confirm The Setting Up And Closing Out Of The Children's Trust Account And Matters Relating To The Operation Of The Account," read a first time, order read a second time on tomorrow.

On motion of the Hon. the Minister of Finance, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Service (Collective Bargaining) Act, 1973," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon, the Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Quieting Of Titles Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

On motion of the Hon. the Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Constabulary (Pensions) Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. on motion of the Hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Highway Traffic Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the Hon. the Minister of Finance, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Civil Service Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

On motion of the Hon. the Minister without Portfolio, a bill, "An Act Respecting Tenders For Public Work," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 4969

May 2, 1974 Tape 1458 (afternoon) IB-1 On motion that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply. 'Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. STAGG): Order, please! We have presently cossumed thirty-eight hours and two minutes of the allocated seventy-five hours. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Sir, how much? MR. CHAIR1'1'.AN (MR. STAGG): Thirty-eight hours, two minutes. 16-03-01. The honourable member for Labrador North. MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to delay the debate on the Community Con~olidation or a new way for the Resettlement Programme. I would like to say just a few words.

I am deeply concerned about the lack of knowledge that the minister has or the lack of information that he has given to the committee so far on the Manpower Mobility Program!lle that is administered bv the Department of l"anpower, the Federal nepartment of "'~anpower. Seeing that the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations d:l.d give some light to the committee on this matter, I feel maybe that this particular programme should be moved out of Rural Development into the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations.

Maybe then this outfit will get better attention and the public will be better informed as to what is going on because I feel that this particular programme has been overshadowed by the loan conunittee of the minister's department. They have been chiefly concerned about going out and giving out money,and not telling people in the province what other types of programmes they have on their rural development. I think that they missed the boat completely .when we talk in terms of the resettlement grants that the department has. I have been involved in a number of cases myself.

I think as many as twenty people from different areas in this province, from logging communities all over the province, particularly from the Great Northern Peninsula have applied for resettlement grants. moving into Goose Bay, Happy Valley to work as loggers with Labrador Liner Board. They applied to the minister's department and bad long 4970

May 2, 1974 Tape 1458 (afternoon) IB-2 periods of correspondence to and from and eventually they decided that they would move their families into rented houses. All of a sudden someone had said, "Why do you not apply to the Manpower Mobility Programme? They, the federal people, do have a programme that maybe you can take advantage of." They in turn went hack to the ManFower Mobility Progralllme and manpower said, "You must first make application hefore you move. After you move, you are not eligible for funds. 1 ' So, I would like to say here to the co11Dnittee, Mr.

Chairman, that the minister's department is directly responsible for people, a number of people that have moved with th~ intentions of getting the Resettlement Programme who have been denied through the lack of communications between his department and the federal department on the ~!anpower Mobility Move. So, if no attention is going to be paid to that particular programme, then I suggest, r!r. Ch,lirman, that it should be moved from his department and not be overshadowed by the fact that we have created "X" number of jobs by lending "X" number of people in the provinc£' "X" number of dollars.

So, when I mention the monetary programme, there is indeed a great need for his comrnittee, his officials of his department to ride shotgun on the politicians r-ecause rherf? was a mad rush to put "X" number of dollars out into the province. There was a mad rush to get some statistics to give to the Premier to say, 'Loot,, this is what we have done, We have created 'X" number of jobs under rural development.• · There was nothing else done under the programme.

So, if the minister were playing his little politics in the coastal and rural conmnmities, he should have indeed instructed his officials in his department 'to re] ay and to give information of the different types of progra11U11es that he was sponsoring, to get it ou~ to the public and do it efficiently which has not been done, the whole foggy issue - it is not fop:!fy today but the whole foggy issue, J'Kr. Chairman, on the policies of rural development. 4971

May 2, 1974 Tape 145B (afternoon) AN HONOllRABLE l"EMBER: Inaudible. MR. WOOnWARD: No. We have the storm up in LabrRdor hut there will be greater storms as years go by. IB-3 The whole foggy issue of the beckbenchers as well as some of the ministers - I suppose I sympathize to some degree ~,ith the minister getting up and expounding on the great Rural Development Policy that Pe have in the province. The minister did not inc!icRte to this committee any type of policy. As a matter of fact. he did not know. He knew that there were "X" number of dollars · but for what reason.

We are a lending committee ,md we are goinP: to lend "X" numher of dollars to create "X" number of jobs. The member for Bonavista South gets up and goes on at some great length. He did not give anything to the committee. We have not yet heard in this debate any of the policies from rural development. We hJ!ve heard that they are spending "X" number of dollars.

The ex-Minister of Social and Community Development got up and gave a passionate speech on the Resettlement Programme that went on - previous to that a few remarks that I was going to pass along to the committee here - the type of thing that really is not helping anyone. So, I would like to see the minister get up and tell this particular committee the liaison between his Resettlement Programme. If I am a logger and I live in Northern Newfoundland and I want to go to Labrador, can I qualify under his programme? Or will he leave me on a string with a mountain of correspondence and eventually to be let down?

Say, ''No, you do not qualify. (',0 to manpower." Then agein I am not eligible because I have moved my family. I have copies of letters here, ~r. Chairman, from as many as ten persons that have been caught in that squeeze. This is why I suggest that if the minister is not going to pay any particular attention to that programme, he ehou]d see fit to move it out and move it into Manpower. If the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations is at all in touch with the federal people, maybe he can administer a better programme. We should not see the 4972

May 2, 1974 Tape 1458 (afternoon) lB-4 people in this province deprived of that particular pro gramme. ••aybe when he ~ets on his feet again, he can Stive us some sensihle, lo~ical answer$ - not in tenns of generality hut tell us what correspondencl'?, what liaison do we have with Canada Manpower C:en ters throu~hout the pr0vince, with regarc's to the Canada Manpower Mobilit y Prog ramme. These are the things that we want to hear from the minister. I think that oeople have suff ered a ~rPat deal ~ecausP of this .

There a-re still a number of persons in this province that do want to move out of rural communities, some ruraJ communities into other centers. there are a number of youn ~ neopJe. There is a ~radual move,continuously. There are as many as MlO people who h ave moved iradually off the Great Northern Peninsula into Hanny Valley , over a period of the 1 ast fj.ve to seven yea rs. What assistance did they get? What t~pe of pro~ra=e do they have to offer them? Or do we have a p rogramme ? Or do we turn around and say.

"No, there is no programme, The o nl y thin~ th~t is available to you if you are not working is the Canada •1anpower ~lobility Programme? •· 4973

May 2, 1974 Tape No. 1459 ID1- 1 If that is the way the situation is, this is the way it should be told to the public, Mr. Chairman, and the peop~e should not be fooled and denrived of any benefits that are available to them. When we think in terms of the community consolidation, there are indeed a nwnber of young people still left in this province who would like to move into the centres. We see them in large numbers every year, large numbers, people coming into Labrador, to Goose Bay, aappy Valley.

We see hundreds and hundreds of people during the swmner over in Wabush, Labrador City, that would move their families in If there were such a programme that they could avail of to be assisted with housing, they would do it. We have people this year who are living in shacks, living in renovated ~arages, working with a Crown Corporation. Maybe the minister can get together with Labrador Linerboard, fill their personnel in on this sort of a prorramme and say, "Yes, if you have people moving out of St. Georges, if you have people moving out of St.

Barbe South, you have people moving out of White Bay North, if you have people moving out of White Bay South, the Hampden Area, experienced loggers, if you are trying to get this type of work force to go in and to settle in Labrador, what type of programme do you have for them? There is no programme. There is no programme within that Crown Corporation. What is going to be done? What type of policy does the minister have in his department to correct these inadequacies that exist in the province today, Mr. Chairman? These are the things. This is what the minister is responsible for. I know the minister is confused.

He is entirely confused because his own people in this co11D11ittee have confused him by eXl)ounding on policy and then again there is no one, there is no one in this committee, there is no one on this side of the Rouse, there is no one on the opposite side of the House, no one, not even the Premier, not even the minister who is going out to collect, tre Minister of Finance, who is going to be compelled one of these days to reach his strong arm out and apply his muscles to get back some of the money he is putting up. There is no 4974

~1ay 2, 1974 Tape No. 1459 NM - 2 policy. People in the province do not know what is going on. There is no policy. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MORGAN: Well anything that the member for Bonavista South would tell me I would not accept as policy. MR. WOODWARD: And the honourable member for, is it Burgeo? The Burgeo burp? I am sure he is very close to the Premier when it comes to developinR rural development policy in this province. No douht he is an adviser. Maybe he would serve as a better adviser than the member for Green Bay who works in the Premier's Office.

I feel there is a great injustice that has been done to the minister in this committee, Mr. Chairman, a grave injustice, by havinr him confused and by havinr. that projected throughout this province,that the minister is confused. After this debate in the House you talk to the public, what policy does the minister have? We expect policies to be expounded from ministers, not from backbenchers who do not know a thing that is going on.

They may be able to J?.et a caucus once every six months or something like that or maybe they can whisper somethinr. funny to the Premier while they sit in the office or sittinr. in the House, that is as close as they get over a long period of time. These are the questions that I am asking. I am asking the minister to tell this committee why those people who applie<l for grants to move,in my area and other areas of Labrador, did not get them? ¼ry1v is there not a liaison with the Manpower people in that respect?

We have a number, and still a greater number of people waiting, simply neople,living in single accommodations who would like to do something, who would like to move their families in if they could get assistance under some particular programme Maybe the minister or one of his officials can sit down and tell me or write me a letter and tell me what type of programme they have and maybe pass the information along to the personnel people in Labrador Linerboard, both in Stephenville and in Goose Bay,and say, "Look there is a programme that is available if you are having a difficult 4975

'May 2, 1974 Tape No. 1459 NM - 3 time moving people off the island." Rather it would be more beneficial to say to a person, ''Yes, there is a permanent job,harvesting wood in Labrador, and it is going to be there for a long period of time. Rather than give you a $10,000 grant, that is going to go by-the-way in maybe a year or six months, maybe we can assist you in taking up residence in that part of the province and we will guarantee you a permanent job and you will have employment for a long period of time. ·• Maybe this is one way to do it. That is not done 0 Mr.

Chairman, that is not done, It is a political thing, it is a political overtone. As I said before maybe it was not intentional but everyone in rural Newfoundland is seeing that this is political patronage and now when we see in committee that the minister is not tuned in to any of the other programmes in his department. I am sure as we go through the estimates today that we will come up with more, more of the problems, more than we did on Friday last when the minister told us that he did not know what Manpower Mobility Grants are.

I am chiefly concerned and it is a great concern of mine and it is a great concern of my constituents and I am sure it is a great concern of this government. How can we move people out of the island that are not working and get them settled into an area where there is work and where there will be work for a number of years? Have we looked at that aspect of the thing? So maybe, Mr. Chairman, when the minister gets on his feet he can tell us what policies. We do not want to hear policies from a backbencher, That is just delaying the time of the committee. That is contributing nothing to this committee.

Maybe the minister who is responsible, responsible to the public of this province, can tell 11$ what is in his estimates. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, before the minister replies - MR. WOODWARD: I am not sitting down. Mr. Chairman, will he wait until I am finished? 4976

May 2, 1974 Tape No. 1459 NM - 4 MR. AYLWARD: He indicated he was sitting down, Mr. Chainnan. MR. WOODWARD: I did not sit down. He should wait until I am sitting. MR. AYLWARD: I beg your pardon. ~r. Chairman, vou indicated that I had the floor, this gentleman was sitting down unless he wants to yak Fnd yaw on. I mean if he do. MR. CHAIR}~: Order please! Order please! Unfortunately I was reading some material on my table at the time and I am not able at this time to acknowledge either gentleman. The last person I recall hearing is the member for Labrador North.

I believe that he made his concluding remarks. ~- WOODWARD: If I may continue, I have just a few more remarks, Mr. Chainnan, I would like to make on rural developmen~ The remarks that I would like to make now is that I would like to say to his minister that rural development is indeed a welcome word in Labrador but we have seen very little results of any big propramme and maybe - MR. 1\!0RGAN..:.... On a point of order. Will the honourable gentleman please sit down on~ point of order. Mr. Chairman, we are debating 1603-01 community consolidation.

The honourable gentlf'man from Labrador North had adequate time to debate rural development under the heading 1601. I think the honourable gentleman should be relevant to the debate,1603 Community Consolidation. ~- WOODWARD: That is not a point of order, Mr. Chainnan. MR. WM. ROWE: Your Honour, I just wanted to refer to a similar point of order which was raised from this side and which was replied to by the House Leader a day or two ago in which he said that it is extremely difficult to separate.under the heading of community consolidation to separate out rural development, what is relevant and what is not.

I tend to agree and if my colleague, the member for Labrador North,should every now and then get away strictly from the idea of centralization or resettlement or strictly speaking community consolidation or bring in some extraneous matter relating to rural development, I would suggest that the precedents 4977

May 2, 1974 Tape No. 1459 NM - 5 in the committee have allowed that to happen, pardcula.rly with reference to the member for grand Falls. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, on that :point of order• The Chairman should also remember that on the first item in the minister's estimates the whole department is being discussed ad nauseum, in fact there was something like, I do not know if it were twenty hours, certainly in excess ot' twelve o:t fourteen hours spent in discussing the minister's department as a whole and the Rural Development Authority. We are now on C0111111unity Consolidation, Mr.

Chairman, in my submission nothing but material relevant to resettlement or co111111unity consolidation should be discussed, because "Mr. Chairman, this is part of a deliberate plot by the 4978

May 2, 1974. Tape 1460 RH - l by the opposition to keep emitting gas on the estimates of two or three departments in an attempt to use up the seventy-five hours devoted to the estimates and some kind of a feeble ploy to suggest that there is not sufficient time to deal with the estimates. We should now have dealt with the estimates, about eight to ten departments if normal procedure were being followed. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, nothing on this vote but resettlement or community consolidation should be permitted to be discussed whatsoever.

We have heard the submissions made by the member for Labrador North ad nauseam for twenty hours now. A.~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: These are not real problems. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: They are real problems. MR. CROSBIE: These are 1ust jaw. MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Order, please! While : the precedents with regard to the discussion of various items of the estimates are well established~ the honourable gentleman from White Bay South indicates a certain amount of latitude was granted to other members of the committee. Well that may or may not be so.

Certainly it would be improper f~r the Chair to rule that we can have a general discussion under headings which are in effect subhea~ So the point of order raised by the honourable member for Bonavista South is valid. I direct the honourable the member for Labrador North,when he continues his remarks, he must remain relevant to Community Consolidation. There will be, of course, a certain latitude granted to any honourable member as he makes a relevant point. In some cases he may have to draw in briefly some material that strictly speaking might be extraneous. MR. WOODWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I submit that I have been more relevant in this dehatewhen I have talked about resettlement in the province of Labrador Linerboard and getting people in than any other honourable member of this committee who has spoken in this debate so far. There is another very important point I would like to make and 4979

May 2, 1974. Tape 1460 RH - 2 I would like to bring to the committee. That point is the member for Grand Falls made a vicious attack on the non-resident officials of the department. I would like to bring to this committee, Mr. Chairman, the fact that we have now and I have seen delays in resettlement, delays in moving people, delays in upgrading communities in my district as well as in the whole of Labrador, a royal commission, the Snowden Connnission. I would like to ask this committee and the honourable member for Grand Falls,(Is Mr.

Snowden a Newfoundlander?) when this administration expects that the Royal Commission on Labrador, this Snowden Royal Commission on Labrador will solve all of the ills that have existed in Labrador for a long, long period of timer So in that respect, Mr. Chairman, I suggest that if the officials of the department,so-called foreign officials of the Department of Social Services and Community Development previous to the minister's, if that indeed was a farce then what is going to happen to Labrador with the Royal Commission, the Snowden Royal Commission? I would like to see some results of that.

Maybe the minister can bring that into his debate when he speaks or if he does speak on this heading of Community Consolidation. MR. F. J. ALYWARD: I have listened with intenseinterest to this debate because I do feel what is considered now community consolidation formerly known as resettlement is a matter of vital importance to a large nl.Dllber of people in Newfoundland. I suppose, Mr. Speaker, it depends upon the definition one takes of rural Newfoundland. If we just consider the major centres of St.

John's Comer Brook, Grand Falls and a few others we really have far in excess of over half our population, probably more like 300,000 living in rural Newfoundland and they are very, very concerned with this question of rural development and of course resettlement. Now, Mr. Speaker, I suppose no other district in the Province of Newfoundland have experienced the ill effects of resettlement like the district of Placentia East. I respectfully submit that some of the most disastrous pages of the history of resettlement were written and are still 4980

May 2, 1974. Tape 1460 RH - 3 being written by the residents of Placentia East and in particular of course I refer to the fishermen in that area. We had, Mr. Chairman, living on these islands in Placentia Bay some of the finest fishermen that Newfoundland has ever produced. I refer now to the islands of Merasheen, Red Island, Harbour Buffett, Little Paradise, Isle Valen and several other places in that bay. All of these fishermen, Mr.

Speaker, with their families were, I respectfully submit, by design encouraged and in some cases dictated that they leave these islands and leave their homes and move to the mainland of the Island of Newfoundland. Of course, large numbers indeed the vast majority of these fishermen settled on the eastern side of Placentia Bay. What you find today is. Mr. Chairman, that all of the fishing premises that were maintained on these islands are being abandoned and some of them today have fallen into complete disrepair.

You have the fishermen who were resettled in Southern Harbour, Arnold's Cove, Placentia, Little Harbour East and particularly from Placentia moving back to these islands to fish so that this year we will have on these islands in Placentia Bay in excess of two hundred fishermen. The sad part of it is, Mr. Chairman, that these fishermen today find themselves being in a far, far worse position than ever they found themselves before. Number

(1) When they left these islands to resettle in Placentia Bay this great dream was held out to them of permanent employment, wonderful schools, water and sewerage. Just what.Mr. Chairman. just what did they obtain? I am not speaking now about their employment. They left, for example Merasheen and Red Island and these other places I have mentioned and a great number of them moved into Southern Harbour. The former minister of that department, the honourable member for White Bay South,I am sure is quite familiar with that. These fishermen came in there with their homes. They were given about $2,000.

They had to uproot their families, take all of their worldly possessions and move into a new connnunity and pay, in some cases, $1,000 for a lot of land,, probably one hundred by two hundred,and their homes, they had to pay to 4981

May 2, 1974. Tape 1460 RH - 4 get their homes transported and then to resettle in these COlllllunit1es. When the homes were taken, Mr. Chairman , into places like Southern Har bour, the big design of a proper subdivision, the homes were put on proposed streets and today, Mr. Chairman, if you were to visit that community you would find that there are not even streets. Here these people are with their homes facing out into the woods. 4982

'·'av 2. 1 °74 Tane 1461 (Afternoon) PK - 1 So this is what resettlement has done. As I said, if anv honourable memher of this Committee wants to really feel what the nrevious nrogral!Dlle with resnect to resettlement did for Newfoundland, the proper nlace for them to visit is Placentia East. Now, Mr. Chairm:m,hefore they had their little gardens, they had their boats and thev were near the best fishing grounds in Placentia Bay, and over in Southern Harbour and narticularlv in the area of Placentia they cannot even get a place to anchor their hoats.

About three or four ~-,eel<s ago I had an urgent telegram fro111 a large number of these fisheT1Tien complaining that unless somethinP,were none to assist them, they would lose every fishinf' \-,oat they had in Placentia. Mr. Chairman, it is hard for us sitting here to really imagine the concern of some of these men who have their l1fe savings invested in a hoat and that boat anchored in or tied up in Jersevs:lde and vou have all the :l.ce coming from the Northeast Arm and the Southeast Am and with the tide running in and out of that Gut, it is just impossible to get icebreakers in there. I nredict, Mr.

Ch1drman, that we will have one of the larp;est nropertv losses that the fishermen of Ne~•-.foundland ever incurred in that area, one of these springs. Th:!.s year, we almost had it. .And every year the fii::hermen in that area have told me.for the nast four, five, six, seven and eight years,the ice keens niling un there. and if the wind does not change_ If, 1'1r.

Chairman, some satisfactory solution is not found to assist tnese neonle, to at least provide them with same anchoraP-e for their boats, they will lose practicallv everv fishing boat in Placentia and Jersevside. 'These are so111e of the fishermen who wen· taken uT1der resettlement from these islands in Placentia Bay. Now, Mr. Chairman, what type of services were they provided with? In the Communi.tv of Southern Parbour, where a great number of them Irere compelled to settle, they found it is very difficult to retain a water supplv.

When the former Department of Commun:ltv and Social Affairs arranpen. financing to drill, I think it was three artesian wells, two of these wells were condemned by the Denartment of P.ealth. At my request the 4983

Tape 1461 (Afternoon) PK - 2 ~inister of Fealth had his senior medical officer to make an investigation there this vear. He found that ninety per cent of the lrater smmly in that part:! cular community was contaminated. Not alone tliat, "'r. Chairman, the auantity of water that is contaminated, but there is a great difftculty iri ohtaining water itself, any tyr,e of l•7ater. There last winter and the winter nast you had these f:I shermen brinP::!.ng l.'ater as far as three and four miles, 1n trucks and on horses. Now tMs is the effect of resettleJTient. This is what these men could tell vou. I say, lAr.

Chairman, that it is a verv, very sad historv 1--ecause there Has absolutely no thoup.ht or certa:lnlv insufficie-nt thought given to the future of these men and their families. So their condition noP is a lot •~orse than ever 1 t uas. Now when thev return to thesP. :Islands nhich thev left they continue to fish. He have on these :Islands as high· as, I sunnose-.a.11 together in excess of 200 persons. It was the Hinister, I th:lnlc of F.nvironment snol·e about the lack of commun1cat:lons. You have these mer,, Mr. Chairman, without practically any communication w1th their homes and with their families.

I sav to thP. "iroister of Fisheries and tam p.:lad he is in the Chamber now and I hone that the Minister of AN FON • ~~rn~, MR. AYLH.ARD: Inaudible. Fe is very, verv relevant. I am speak:f.np.: about resettlement not the Linerhoard, Mr. Chairman. I am talking a"out the fishermen who resettled in 'Placentia Bay and who are now p,oinp- back to their island to coritinue to fish and what I am saying is th:ls, You have about one hundred men without any col1111!unication whatsoever w:f.th their families.

The" ;ire goinr; around in boats tryinl!; to finn a lon!':liner that has an RT i;et so that thev can COl!Ullunicate with thetr homes on the other side of Placentia Ray. Of course, Mr. Chairman, they have an added prohlem today of course, and that is the nrohlem presented by these tan~ers in the Bav. t say that these fishermen who resettled and now find it necessary to go back and are obstructed in their pursuit of the fishing, that they should he comnensated. Tam looking forward very anxiously to when this 4984

Taoe 1461 (Afternoon) PK - 3 renort of the Tanker Cononittee is made nuhli.c hecause, ~r. Chairman, recent submissions to me hv these same individuals who find it necessar-• to p.o back across that hay and use it for their fishing have indicated that thev find that thev cannot uti]ize some of the fishin~ grounds that they did before. Also, of course, that they do not have adeauate communication on their boats to realize the nresence of these tankers.

I think that inonediRte steps should he taken to see to it that every little fishing craft in that hay whould have at least a walkie-talkie or s0111e tyr,e of cononunication with each other and ·with the lar~er and smaller tankers going in and out of that bay so that thev can realize and he aware of the location and the nresence of these 1->oats in the hay. 'Recently, ur. r.hairman, •~e heard an announcement hv the Federal Minister for DRY.E to the affect that certain funds ~•ould be ~ade availahle to assist these fishennen who had resettled and found it neces!'ary to go 'hacJr on these islands and to continue to fi!"h.

In fact some monies were p.oin~ to be allocated so that some nublic oremises on these 1slanc1s could he l'laintained so that the fishermen could use them. Now, Mr. t.hairman, I think that is a verv, verv worthwM]e cause.

I hone that the ~inister of Fisheries here and the Pfnister of Rural Development,hecause I think it concerns both,will use whatever power or persuasion or whatever authoritv or whatever re.sources that thev can muster in their denartments to see to it that itrllllediate stens are taken hv n]?F,f'., hv 'P.ural nevelonl'lent ann. hv the T.lenartment of 'Fisher:! es to accommodate these tishennen because.

Mr. r.hai.rman, when one realizes thitt far in excess of 200 neon]e are on these islands now or will he 1n the next three or four weelcs,and to have that number of neonle vithout comll'unication is T suhm:!.t a very, verv sPrious oneration. I am told that the cost of a few RT sets would only he 1n the vicinity of $3,00(1 to $4,nnr so surelv the Denartment of Fi!'heries, the Denartment of Rural nevelonment or some of these denartments,in consultation and co-operation w:l,th T)P.FE, can find the resources to at least nut these men in co=.unication with tlie:!.r families. Now, Mr.

Chainnan, J also feel that sufficient thou~ht has not hPen ,:tiven to the plight of these indiv:f duals after thev have resettlecl

}fay 2, 1974 Tape 1461 (Afternoon) PK - 4 In fact, no consideration was given to orovide additional financial assistance to the councils in the areas where these men settle, I refer now, of course, to the Placentia Area, to Southern Harbour and to the other commun:l.t:les in that bay. Surely, if the federal government and the orovincial government as a result of resettlement are no longer required to provide Rervices to these islands, a great savinp, has resulted. This saving I respectfully suhmit should he channeled in such a direction that it would benefit these oeople. That :Is not he:tng done.

You have some of these individuals settling in Placentia and Southern Harbour. You have Southern Harbour without any water and se~,erage whatsoever and what wate·c is there, as I have mentioned earlier, nfnety per cent of it is contaminated. You have the '.!'own of Placentia t.dth no sewerage whatsoever and one of the oldest water lines in Newfoundland that needs immediate repairs and extensions. Mr. Chairman,_it may surnrise vou to learn that in the Placentia Area alone over 2sn households settled between 1965 and 1969. µe had 140 individuals moving :Into the Town of Placentia.

You can imagine the stress and the strain that that n1.1111ber of extrapersons :I.TT!posed unon the municioal and educational fa.cilities in these colllfflunities. So what should have been done was that areas and towns that acceoted these individuals should have been given additional assistance, ·hut that did not happen. That did not happen. I respectfully submit that resettlement has been very, 4986

May 2, 1974 Tape no. 1462 Page 1 - MW very disastrous for the fishermen of Placentia Bay. I realize, Mr. Chairman, that there is a great need for public services in Newfoundland. I realize, of course, that there is a limitation on the amount of funds that are available, Surely, if there is one group of people who should have a priority on the funds of this government, it should be these people who are taken from their homes and moved to other communities and who find themselves in a financial and social condition much worst than what they left. One could almost, Mr.

Chairman, compare them with, I suppose, the Palestinians. They have left their homelands and they find it necessary now to go back and to try to fish under terrible circumstances.without any accommodations, without any communications and hardly any attention whatsoever paid to them. I know that there are very, very important contributions that could be made and I again ask the appropriate ministers of the government to assist them in that respect.

These coastal boats that are operating in these bays in the summer could and should be expected to visit these communities while these men and some of their families are settled there. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. AYLWARD: No, not Merasheen and Red Island. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. AYLWARD: Not the areas, Mr. Chairman - I am speaking about the islands where the fishermen go back and fish in the summer. I have had several communications from them and I have written the C.N.R. on their behalf. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR.

AYLWARD: They should go in, if for no other reason than to keep contact with that number of people. In fact some of them,! am told by one individual, practically go in and out for everything, They have even taken some people rabbit snaring there. They do not make regular visits or they are not ports of call in the summer. The point I am making is that Merasheen, Red Island, Isle Valen and all these communities where there are a large number of fishermen fishing in the summer that the coastal boats in these bays should visit there. 4987

May 2, 1974 Tape no. 1462 Page 2 I sincerely trust that some co-ordination between the appropriate provincial department and the federal department will take place and that some real effort will be made to assist these fishermen and their families. Now, Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Fisheries knows himself because at my request he accompanied me recently to Placentia and he attended a meeting of the fishermen where over one hundred fishermen attended that meeting and they made these problems wh-ich I speak about now well-known to him. I think they are also of vital concern and should be to rural development.

I solicit the co-operation of both the Minister of Fisheries and the Minister of Rural Development to assist these people, particularly in the field which I have mentioned. MR. REID: Speaking -about Manpower and relocation which the Hon, Member Labrador North spoke about just now, as far as I was concerned, I had very little information on this Manpower and since then I have discussed it with our department and the minister. At least I did say that the grant for the Atlantic Region was $400.

Comparing Rural Development and the Manpower one: A family of five children, the basic rate would be $700 and $1,500 if a house is purchased and moving costs, which would come to roughly about $2,500. Under Rural Development, it is $2,000 basic for the lot; it would be $3,000 and $1,500 for house moving, which would come to $6,500. All the applications have been referred to Manpower Actually a representative from Manpower is on the committee. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. REID: None qualified last year.

Now that we have changed the employment opportunities we feel for sure now that there will be a lot more people qualifying under this new resettlement programme. 4988

May 2, 1974 Tape no. 1462 Page 3 I think it was the Member for Bonavista South who spoke about community consolidation and the difference in the system that the Liberal Government had and the system that we have at the present time. Co111munity Consolidation is concerned with increasing the employment opportunities of individuals. This division will counsel interested individuals on job opportunties, help find employment and financially assist householders to relocate to communities where they have found employment. In short the emphasis is being placed on job opportunities and not on relocation itself.

I think quite often that a lot of our people have certainly stressed the point that our community consolidation was a different type of system for helping and moving various people. An individual who leaves his property behind is not required to turn his property over to the government. Persons leaving property behind retain ownership of that property and they can have that property and when they go away and settle down somewhere else some other day, if they felt like it, they can sell it to someone else. The programme under consolidation is, therefore, not a centralization programme.

No effort will be made to phase out communities because of isolation or any other reason. The whole aim of the programme is to assist householders, at their request, to relocate to jobs. Now, Mr. Chairman, the major change in this philosophy; The ola programme moved or closed out settlements but the new programme is not to drag out people or close out settlements but to assist people who have job assurances to move to a place where they have jobs. In fact I was asked the other night to compare and some people felt that there was very little comparison to the old system.

This was something that I was not too fussy about getting into because at least I did feel that there was a lot of difference in the system that we have been carrying out this year compared with other systems. One of our policies: a list of communities abandoned, a list of sending communities and a list of receiving communities . 4989

May 1, 1974 Tape no. 1462 Page 4 (

a) In 1973, we did not move one solitary house. We did assist seventy individual Newfoundland families to move to places where greater opportunities existed. This is the difference. We care. It is a matter of attitude. On this list here, I have somewhere around 279 comm.unities whi.ch have been relocated. I will show the honourable gentlemen that I met with a lot of people who have been very, very discontented. I am no.t going to say that it was all wrong to move various people. Since I became Minister of Rural Development, I certainly can see and I am sure that our staff can see in a great many cases that a lot of these communities 4990

May 2, }Q74 Tape 1463 (afternoon) IB-1 could have still been great viable communities. I have a list here of the government communities that were designated as sending communities. It should be noted that at the present time, there are no communities in Newfoundland designated as sending communities. These are towns that were set up, that a lot of our people never knew, would probably never know the day when they would have to move from that community. They will have very, very little choice.

I look throu~h this list of various communities - this I have not shown hut which prohah]y I will table - various communities in Newfoundland that when I travel around today they are very prosoerous little communities. I will say, rod help the person today who will try to move some of these people out of those communities that are listed right herel I have them in crinity South. I have them in Conception Bay and various other rays. There is one here for sure that none of us would 1 ike to see move and that is Rell Isl and. That was listed to po, in no nncrrtain terms.

I am sure the member from Hel 1 Island and mysc>J f would have worked very hard to \:eco the oeople over there on that island hec.ause certainly after the statement he made the other night, after all the tomatoes that we are growing now at the present time, it all means we can grow ten times as many over thc>re when we get working together. We have brought brilliant people out of Perry's Cove. Brownsdale - just ima!!'.ine going do~m in llro1JY1Srl<'!le to take the people out of r.onne River you will have something to do, and put them in another place in Newfoundland.

These are some of the communities that were slated to go. These are some of the communities that we have travelled most every single one of them. There is certainly great hope in a lot of these communities to make those little communities self-supportinR, A lot of the people here who were moved from a lot of these communities, movec into just as had and quite often a lot worse. Sometimes the communities were never prepared for these people and the schools, 4991

May 2, 1974 Tape 1463 IJ\-2 churches and everythinp else were being overcrowded. I thinJr in a great many cases the saddest part of all of it was the person wlio lived there so long who was disrupted so badlv he could never survive and it broke a great manv of these people's hearts I will assure you. We have communities tl.esi~ated as receiving communities under the Federal Provincial Resettle~ent Prop.ramme. We have twenty or twenty-five of them here. If they want l!IE! to read them, I can. Then we have this special one where the DREE money was going into areas like St.

John's, Come-by-Chance, Burin, StephenvilJe, Corner Broo!<-, r:rancl Fal 1 s, Hawlres Bay, Port au rho ix and Happy Valley. Now I feel thE" money that we have spent - T know ther<' are certain little islands and areas ~here it was a grand thing prohahly to move them but I certainly feel the trouble in Newfoundland I think I know Newfound] and people fairl~.' well and I think that is·e could have ~one a lot better by going into those little communities and helping, what we are doing today.

We are not on]v _;ust J?Oinp: out into the var:l.ous communities and passing out Joans for sawmills and various things like that. Our denartment is going out helping to train the various people. We are helping to set up development associations. Let these peonle come out with ideas in their own communities. We are not going out in those communities and pushing it down their throats and saying, "You have to do this and you have to do that.' Because we certainly feel~ if it is going to be a viable thing, we must have those people interested and those oeop]e must be behind the johs that we are trying- to do.

We have set un associations around here with all types of handicraft work anrl various things. Our peonle have heen working day anrl night to certainly try to make a success of this. There is somethinr to remember. Our little department has been only set up a little over twelve months. We were not set up twelve months ap,o. It took us four or five months to ~et the staff together. We worked six months on the ARDA Programme. We worked 4992

.,, }•lay 2, 1974 Tape 1463 IB-3 six months with the federal and provincial people co-operating together. We finally got that through and we hope there is going to be a great success. For that to be a success, then \.'e are certainly going to need tl:,e people over on the other side not to go down, not to go discouraging, by all means come and heJp and worl< t,rith us together. 'Because if those peor,lP are half as interested in Newfoundland as they try to pre~end, let us p:et together and I am sure that we can make a Newfoundland,through Rural Development and our other industries.

Rural Development was never set up to rut up Empire State Ruildings or anything else. Rural Development was set up to go down to districts and help the various people that could never help themselves. I thinl< we arP doing that. Even though they bring up various arguments about various 1i ttle industries that we are starting, what is wrong with starting these little industries? Is it because thev are local persons who have never had a helping hand before? Is this not what rural developMent is all ahout, so that we can get someone started? The next day someone else will come un ~!1th an idea.

Therefore, this is what our. staff are trying to do an<l we hope to make a success of it. Thank you. l-!Il. _r_HAIR}'.AN (MR. STAGG): Order, please! Both honourable Rentlemen seem t0 ½ave arisen spontaneously at the same time, so, J. suggest to hononrat>le gentleman. The meMber for Labrador North: ~TR. WOODWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank the member for Bell Island for bowing to me. I woulrl ]ike to ask one more question of the minister. ~~aybe he can give us an answer on the floor.

The question that I did ask him and I think I am chiefly concerned about is the fact that - I wil] put it in very simple terms - if I live on the Great Northern Peninsula,in Flowers Cove, and I want to go to Labrador, in Flowers Cove or any community on the Great Northern Peninsula or any community on the island what criteria is set that I can qualify to move out of any community on this island and to resettle in Goose Bay or Happy Valley? Do I 4993

May 2, 1974 Tape 1463 IB-t. get assisted by his department? Or is there no assistance for that particular type of prorramme? This is all, ~r. Chairman. MR. FEID: ~r. Chairman, to the best of my knowledge, once he is going to a receiving community and there is a job opportunitv there, I do not see any reason in the world why he should not be helped. In the meantime he mentioned something about various letters or something and very little co-operation.

I think once again that sometimes the member should vi.sit us more often or certainly drop us a letter and explain certain circumstanceswhere sometimes one can be quite right, that he probably never got the right attention. I would he only too glad if some of the honourable gentlemens members would cc,me down and see us and discuss the various things. I think this is what we are lacking quite often. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I do not want to delay the committee but there were a number-of points r,ised by honourable gentlemen on the government benches, Sir, that l think need to be either clarified or expanded slightly because they only tend to confuse the issue. Number one, Sir - one would swear after listening to the various members on the government benches speak, especially the t<inister of Rural Develooment, that there was no such thinp. today as resettlement.

All the gab and all the chaw, Sir, and all the lip t1'.at they had in two provincial campaigns in this province and before tbe 1971 provincial general election, all the chaw they had before that about resettlement and the crucifixion of the people in the rural areas and forcing people to leave their homes and go in to other communities, one would si,ear, Mr. rhai rman, that as soon as that honourable crowd took office that they would do away witr, any signs of a 4994

l"ay 2, 1974 Tane 1464 (Afternoon) PK - 1 resettlement progra11D11e when in actual fact, S:lr, •~e have :In th:!.s year's estimates for what thev call Community Consolidation,and a rose by any other name, Sir, would smell just as sweet,because it is resettlement. The minister can call :It what he wants, put a fancy,grandiose name on it, it is still resettlement. They are spendinp. - ATIT HON. 'W·'BFR: Inaudible. "F. NF.ARY: I see sitting in that seat over there yesterdav,did not do any good, nothing rubhed off on the honourable minister. Spending this year, Sir, let me see , $3no,ono was it?

Three hundred thousand dollars on resettlement. The minister can call it what he likes but it is still resettlement, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: Tnaudible. l"R. ~EARY: Tllo, the m:lnister will answer it as soon as I am finished because I have another few other points and a few other ouestions that T ~-•ant to put to the minister. T do not know if •,re are going to snend the reinainder of the time on l'ural nevelopment or not, Sir. 'le w:111 probably go about fortsr-five hours on it before we are finished. But it :Is a verv imnortant matter.

The minister has not exnla:lned it, at least to my satisfact.ion, Sir, mv colleagues satisfact:lon for that matter. Sir, the minister made a fooliRh statement there a few minutes ago that I have to pick him up on. I just have to. The minister indicated that the criterion for moving people now to industrial areas, to areas where vou have industry, to areas of emnloyment, the criterion dangling the carrot in front of these neonl.e now is that thev are moving to a iob. That is what the minister said.

He said, ''('h imre anvbody nov that wants to leave a community to relocate in Newfoundland, we will assist them, nrov-fdinP, they are going to a _1oh. •· Ts that what the minister said basically? Am I internreting the ministc-r correctly? That is l-7~at the minister said. Fell, Sir, that is unbelievable. I can hardly helieve that because, Mr. Chairman, you know what hapnened when you adopt th11.t kind of a nolicv? You create little ghettos around Newfoundland of senior citizens and widows and ornhans because thev cannot move to employment opnortunities. 4995

Tape 14~4 (Afternoon) PK - ? So, Mr. Chainnan, if that :Is not forcing people out of communitieR, I do not kTIO" what the heck is. They cannot 11tay there. Inaudible. >,u;>. ~!EARY· I bep. your nardon? Inaudible. MR. ~AJ!Y: But, Mr. Chairman , the minister did not say that, I have dragged i.t out of hir, now, ~1-r. I dragged it out of him now. Inaudihle. Well that makes the nrogramme identical to t"1e old progranne, the wido~-•s, sen:for citizens, nens:loners. neonle movinl? to emnloV1'lent opnortu11ities can all r,uaH fv under th:! s nrogramme Is th~t not corre .ct? 'ffi.. REII', Here that :fs 1or onnortun:fty.

That iR a d1.fferent svstem altogether. "R. NEAJ>.V• Was it not eve11 thus? It certainlv was so. ~r. rha:lrman, do not trv and cocl the---neonl e of th:! s nrovince. The worse 1':.ind of hvnocris v that is. Tt ~-•as ever th.us, S:lr, and the !'linister kn01:.•s that . Another thinp. th~ m:fn:l.ster confirmed for me this afternoon,that R:fnce we ceased to he the povernment :In January 1°72 that the name of Rell Island ~-,as added to the li1at to he slated to l-ie wined out. It was not on any list when I was :1.n the ~overnment. Af< 'f!N1. ''F'-'lWP , <'h, -----·- yes it was. MR.

NF.A'PY: Oh, no it was not. ----- Oh, yes! Oh, no it certainlv 1:~1as not. It came nn a list that was brought into th:ls honourable 'flou11e hv the 'Member for ('rand Fall11, when 'fie ,was >':f.nister of r.ommun1tv and ~ocial l'evelonment. When I asked for the 1i st, the minister lai.d it on the little 10ilver trav that the usher brings arour1d the House and then the Premier rushed up to him and then he reached out and grahed it back, and nulled it back. Rel] Island was on that. HR. NEARY: Then later on the minister was flicken. out of t"1e cab:l.net.

Well I susr,ected at that time that Rell Island was on that list. I susr,ect~d, S:f.r, that Bell Island was on that list then. 4996

M:ay 2, 1Cl7lf Tane 14~4 (Afternoon) PK - 3 MR. CHAIRMAN (STAG<;): nrder, please! A couple of honoural:>le gentlemen seem to thin\c thRt thev can speak to the Cramber from their stations, the doorwavs. This of course is comnletely against the rules of narliamentarv nrocedure and is certainlv not a very courtesy thing as 9ell. So I sui:rgest that all honourahle members observe the rule that a member who has the floor has the right to he heard in silence and all honourahle memhers have the rip:ht to narticipate in this debate at the nroner tim:e. MR. NFAllY: So, Mr.

Chairman. at least the mini.ster and I have one thing in col1llllon - they are not poing to force thP. neonJe off Bell Island. Thev do not want to leave. MR. l!'EARY, 'l'hev do not want to leave, of course thev do not. They want to Rtav there. A 'Ill Hf'•N. MF,MJH'll: Thev never did. Mp J\1EARY: 'l'hev never did. Bell Island was never on a list unt1.l the "'ember for Grand Falls - and I do not 1rnow where he got it. It mil>:ht have been given to him hv Rome of these officials that he waR in disagreement with. AN HnN. MDIBFR: Inaudirle. !'-fR. NF ARY: The member is sha'!r:l.ng his head, Sir.

Sir, this :Is the first indication that we have had and I have. susnected that for two vears hut I am glad to hear the minister say that he is not going to go along with it. I could not follow the m:1.riister when he was talking about this list that he was goini;,: to table. Has the minister tabled the list? Where did it come frol'I? What date is on it? Pid it come from Ottawa? nid it come from the officials of his denartment? When was this list nrenared? r.erta:lnly, twas in cabinet for three and a-half years, Sir, I never saw any liRt. AN HON. MEl"BF,R: Rut they had one. MR.

NEARY: No, we certainly did not have one. AN HON. MEMBER: Sure thev did. 4997

Mav 2, 1Q74 Tape 1464 (Afternoon) PK - 4 Well it must have been locked up in the deen dark closets <lown on the - AN PON. ~FP: Inaudible. ----- ---- f'h, receiving co1T1JT1unit:f.es. Receivin~ communities, the minister has a list there now. T thin 1c thP. receiving communities were announced several vears ago. No, receiving co11D11unities0 Mr. Chainnan, there was never, never a list. M:R. RAR:RY: They were going to be terminated. MR. NEARY: No, Sir. Be destroverl. AN ~o~. ''El'IBF.R, Disgraceful! '·.fJl. NF.ARY· What is disp:raceful? AN HON. 1"F.''BFR: "n a point of order, "1r. Sneaker. f.fJl.

NEAPY: Well I do not mind the schoolbov debater, you l<now, having a few words. 'fll • B.A.P'RY: Inaudirle. ------ But, ~:Ir, I am glad to hear the minister sav that he is not going to go alonii; with Bell Island being ~Tined out; ne:fther a!II I. T thin!~ we made that e1ui te clear a fe~,, weel-s ap:o when the Proctor and llec!fern reoorted, when the cornr,ission of enouiry was goinp. around the p.reater. St. John ' s Area, holding oublic hearings for the Proctor and 'P.edfern l'eport.

A reoort commissioned hv that honour.ah le crowd over there and recommended that services he downgraded on Bell Island and recommended that no more money be snent to imnrove nublic services on Bell Island. Thev were going around, Sir, in their own ouite wav, in their own conservative wav ,with a small ''c'', holding a little uublic hearing here and therP• When thev got to Bell Island, Sir, you 1-now what hapoened one afternoon; 700 neonle turned un for a public hearing. Two went to _ia:1.1. t~. 111'EARY: Two fellows got locl<.ed up. '!'hat is true, I was there.

As a matter of fact, I l'7as making my presentation at the time. AN HON. ''FMBER: Inaudihle, MR. NF.ARY: They l'7ere not ob.1ecting to what I was saying, thev were 4998

1-'ay 2, 1074 Tape 1464 (Afternoon) PK - 5 a11:reein11: with me. '!'hat is whv 1 regretted so much that thev were locked uo, Sir, hecause they were upholding: what I was sayin~. They got so excited and so completelv carried away and so emotional wi.th my presentation that they had to be carried off to the lockup. ~ortunatelv, one of them got a lawyer and the case was thro'!-m out of court. Thank Goel!

One fellow when he uas heing carried out, he looked un at me, I was un standing on the stage making mv presentation and he Raid, "Steve, I need vou: ·· I Raid, •·r will se.e you later George,· · as they carried h:l.m out of the hall. What could I do, Sir? AN HON. lo.-(E'-IB~: Tnaudihle. "'R. NFAPY: ------ "But, S:lr, the r>eople, there were 1,200 people turned up that night, that was ahout 1,2()() residents of Bel] Island turned out to a tmhl:f c hearing that you would exnect to he duJJ • that you would exnect to he uninterestin~, that nohodv could not care less ahout, l ,200 cit:l .zens turned up.

So that should he a clear ind:lcation to the minister that these neonle had no intention of givin11: un their home!! or it:1.ving up the r.ommun:l.ty of Rell Island. AN HON. !'-IEMBFR: The only thing that thev want to give up is there member. MR. NEARY: No, they do not want to vive up their member. The member found a good issue there, I can tell you that,hecause it onlv confirmed ,~hat I had suspected for two vears, ~men I could not itet that list from the former minister of that denartment. I almost had it. I was so close to it, I could almost reach out and itrah it. AN HON. r1EMBFR: Inaudible. l>fR.

N'FARY: What is that? AN FON. 1'-!FMBER: He almost ~ot it hut not ouite. ""IR. NF.ARY: No and the minister is not prepared to table the list now although he said he was goini? to. Is the minister goir,p to taole the list? AN HON. MEMBER: He provoked him. He was going to, now he does not - Jl:R. NEARY: Pell the minister said he was. ts he going to he a man of his word? AN HON. ME!-IBER: Inaudible. 4999

'fay 2, 1~74 Tape 14~4 (Afternoon) ?1< - f, ''R . ~FA~Y: \<ell T would HJ,e to have it, Sir. If the minister sends it to me J can tell him r irht now, T am not /?Oinp; to mah'! :my back<loors about it, Sir. it is not ~oinv, to he on a conH<iential l-ai:is, X can tell the ministe-r that . 1'nv docu111ent t'hat i.s tahl ed in t'hi s flouse is not ~oinp to be on a confi dentj,al hasi.s, as fa-r as I a!'l concerned. \ MR. BA.ll.RY: Do not sdve it to the Lead e-r of the Onnosjtion on a confidential hasis.

Ml. '1EA'P..Y: about that. 0h! lie 1->ill have to sneak to the Leader of the Opnosition Al" l'lflN . 'f'P)f81':P. :_ Tnaudihle. '"~- ~'F./11>_.V_:_ Rut I s hallrelease it, Si-r, to the nuhlic if the ministe r should p.i ve :It to me, T can tell hil" th11t rip;ht now. P.ut T will i>urmit that t be 111i~ister tahle it i.n this Fouse, the list that his collen~ue alntost nroduced, almoi>t let the cat out of the hai> a counle of vears apo . Ther, the rn:l.niste r taJl r!'l aliout closinP out - <1st' l'f'N.

"'F:~'Rf.l': Irlauclj rle. ''l". tTF.APY • The first I have heard of a list ,,,ai:; when the fonne r minister came into this Rouse, the "emhPr for Gr and Falli:;, and laid the 1 ist down on a little silver trRv that the 11she-r carries around . The.re was the lj.st. lf the usher 11ad hee.n nuick ennuph he woul cl have been awav from the mini.ster and the list woul<i have 1-,een do~m on mv desk hut the PrPmier iumned out of hfs i:,eat, rushed un, sa:!d tsometh1nP. to the rn:l.nister, 'ln<l he erahed the. H st hacl·, and then a few ,,,eeks latPr the noor fellor4 met 50UO

May 2, 1974. Tape 1465 RH - 1 his Waterloo but that is another story. I am not p,oing to condemn the member for that because the member told us yesterday and I do not think I am misinterpreting what he said, that he wanted to make that list public, that he felt it was his duty,and I think it was. I admire and respect him for that except for one thinF.

Well I do not know what the strings were that were attached but I certainly agree with the· member because I think if I had been in his position and I knew that the axe was hanging over the head of a number of communities in Newfoundland I would want to let the people know. I think the minister did the right thing by wanting to table that list. I would not sit on it and I do not think that minister down there should sit on that list. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: There is. Look, Mr. - Chairman, the carrot is dangled in front of these people. Your Honour knows that. The minister says.

"Oh! if they have a job to go to," and he kept repeating that. I kept listening to it and I still could not believe it until I dragged out of him there a few minutes ago that widows could also qualify. The minister did not say that, Sir, that old age pensioners can qualify, people who are retired or living on company pension can qualify, unemployed can qualify,whether they are p,oing to a job or not does not make any difference. If they are moving up on the south shore of Conception Bay, it does not make any difference if they have a 1ob, they can qualify. Yes, Sir, they do. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: They should. Is it one of the stipulations of the programme that they must have a job? No, Sir, it is not. I can tell the minister that. It is not. The minister better go and check his records. It is not one of the qualifications, Sir. In actual fact, Mr. Chairman, I will tell you the only difference in this programme and the old programme, Sir. I will tell you the only difference. The only difference is now that it can be done on an 5001

May 2, 1974. Tape 1465 RH - 2 individual basis. That is the only difference, Sir. AN HONOURABLE MEM:BER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: That is right. My colleague points out to me that it could be done on an individual basis but generally speaking I think the majority of the conununity would decide. A.~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: That is right. If there were a consensus that a large majority of people - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: A substantial nmnber. MR. NEARY: A substantial number, all right, but it could have been done on an individual basis.

I can tell the minister right now that Bell Island was not included in that progrannne. Bell Island was not included in the Resettlement Pro~ralTlllle until that crows took office, Sir. Then they changed the programme to include Bell Island. Yes, Sir. Mr. Chairman, that is true. The minister knows that. Sir, I am giving the minister a piece of information. If he should not know it,I am telling him now that everybody that left Bell Island after the Dosco Mines closed - in 1959 we had the first mines closed, 1960-61 there were major layoffs, the mines closed and in 1966 the final Dosco pull-out.

I happened to win the election after - . AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible • MR. NEARY: What about it? Mr. Chairman, there were three mines closed before that, three. Mr. Diefenbaker was up in Ottawa with the biggest majority he ever had. I went to his office, the late D. I. Jackman and myself and the clergy from Bell Island,and sat in Mr. Diefenbaker's office and he shivered and shook and rattled and roared. He made the honourable w. J. Brown the Chairman of the Committee and that was the last we heard tell of it. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: - P.C. MR. NEARY: I was not a P.C. I was not even in politics at the time.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: The honourable member was Jim McGrath's 5002

May 2, 1974. Tape 1465 RH - 3 campaign manager. He should not tell lies. MR. NEARY: That is right, Sir. I was campaign manager for Jim McGrath. I was. I met Mr. McGrath when he was a bellhop down at the Newfoundland Hotel. I remember one night he slept in the coal bin down there and got full of coal dust. He came up the next day and we thought he was a nigger. That is why I campaigned for Jim McGrath. It was a personal thing. MR. CHAIRMAN: · Order, please! While this discussion is certainly enlighting and interesting. it nevertheless has nothing to do with 1603-01, Community Consolidation. MR.

NEARY: Anyway, Sir, Bell Island was not included in the Resettlement Programme or the Community Consolidation until that honourable crowd took office. Then they persuaded Ottawa to include Bell Island. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: That is not true. MR. NEARY: That is true. That is true, Sir. Every family that left Bell Island- AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: That is a nontruth. MR. NEARY: No, it is not a nontruth. Every family that left Bell Island. Sir, relocated under the Manpower Relocation Grants. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: That is federal. MR. NEARY: Federal, that is right, federal. Mr.

Chairman, I have to bring the honourable Mr. McGrath into it again because Mr. McGrath was a member of parliament when the first mines closed on Bell Island in 1959. He went to the old warrior, the old chief, and said, "Look chief, there is a labour surplus programme under the old Unemployment Insurance Commission that you can implement to move people off Bell Island." So they brought the programme into effect, labour sun,lus. Actually, Sir, I could say this, I could say this, Mr.

Chairman, that the Manpower Mobility Programme that we have in Canada today was born as a result of the closing of the mines on Bell Island. That is a proud boast, Mr. Chairman, because although somebody said the other day that Tom Kent was the architect of the Manpower Mobility Programme,he 5003

May 2, 1974. Tape 1465 RH - 4 might have been the Deputy Minister at the time, Sir, but I had as much to do with cultivating that Manpower Mobility Programme as anybody in this world, on the face of this earth. It was done on a trial and error basis in the beginning, Sir, trial and e=or. The programme was developed as a result of the experience on Bell Island. That is a fact. There was no relocation grant from my honourable colleague's department. I used to hound my colleague.

I would hound the life out of him and say, "Look', why can our people not qualify for resettlement grants?" They were moving anyway and they were sacrificing their homes to the scavengers over there. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Harry Benson. MR. NEARY: No, not Harry Benson but I can tell the minister who and they were not Liberals either. I can tell the minister. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Name names. MR. NEARY: The scavengers, Sir, were buying the houses for $150.00 and $200.00, ~250.00. Everybody panicked. My buddy would not give them anything under the ResettlementProgramme. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: Anyway, Sir, the people wanted to move anyway. Even if they did, most of them wanted to move up to Ontario. Even under this nrogramme they can only qualify if they are moving from a point within the Province to another point in the Province. They cannot qualify if they are moving up to Ontario. They cannot. They can qualify under the Manpower Programme but not under the minister's programme. It has to he in Newfoundland to twenty odd receiving communities. Sir, the Minister of Manpower the other night told us that under the Federal Programme, Sir, and I want to set the record straight.

I am only bringing this up just as a matter of setting the record straight, that under the Federal Manpower Programme one can only move if one is unemployed or about to become unemployed or under-employed. Sir, that is false. That is not true. The only way one can move under the Manpower Mobility Programme is if one is going to a job. They will send you on an exploratory grant if there is, for instance, Mr. Chairman, if there is a possibility say in Grand Bank or Fortune to get a 1oh, 5004

May 2, . 1974 Tape No. 1466 NM - 1 the job opportunities there are good. ~anpower could send you down on an exploratory grant and pay your expenses for a couple of weeks while you are there looking for a job and you could take your wife with you, but in order to relocate your family you have to be going to a job and you have to be moving into an area where there is no labour surplus. The minister told us that the grants were $100 for the head of the family and $100 for his wife and $100 for each child. That is not true, Sir.

It is more like $1,000 for the head of the family and $1,000 for his wife and a couple or $300 for each dependent. Now, Sir, I think the reason Manpower >.fobility was brought into this debate, somebody put the question to the minister: "Is there any overlapping?" Well, Sir, what I would like to ask the minister,if you can qualify for both or do you have a choice? That the minister's resettlement orogramme is more benefici2l and more advantageous than the family that is moving? Can they apply? I will wait until the minister finishes his conversation. Can they qualify for both? ~'R. 'R.EID: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: Now, this is somethinp, new that I have drag~ed out of the minister, Sir, there is overlappin~ then. In other words, the family that is relocatinR can qualify under both prop,rammes? MR. 'R.EID: Inaudible. MR~F~ But is it possible1 I do not care what was made. ~. REID: That is a possibility. MR. NEARY: It is possible.

In other words, Sir, the family that is relocating, if they think that Manpower is more advantageous to them, they can go down and get federal grants but if they think the minister's resettlement programme is a better programme, they can go to the minister's department, or they can have a combination of both. Is that so? Is that not so? 5005

'-!av 2, 1974 Tape No. 1466 NM - 2 MR. REID: Yes. !'ffi• ~RY: That is so. Well, Sir, the minister certa~nly did not make that clear. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: He just made it clear because I dragged it out of him. That is why he made it clear. The minister said also, Sir, there a few moments ago, and I had to take exception to it, left the impression that the poor,old family who are leaving their property behind can sell their property he says. He said that the government does not take their property, they can sell it if they want to.

Well, Sir, that is only half the story - that is only half the story. A person can sell their - Let us set the records straight, Sir, what happens is that the minister's department buys the land. 1s that not correct? When they give the family the assistance the minister takes the deed to the land but not the house. A per~on who is moving can take the house with him. MR. REID: They can leave it there. MR. NEARY: No, they can leave it there for one year. MR. REID: No. - - -- MR. ~EARY: Yes, Sir. r.iR. REID: No, not in this programme. MR. NF.ARY: Well, Mr. Chairman, they can leave it there.

All right, let us say they can leave it there indefinitely but they cannot sell it unless they get permission from the minister. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. 1'1R. NEARY: That is not changed. Mr. Chairman, let me get it straight now because this is a very important point. The r,overnment takes the deed to the land,so the home is on the land - MR. REID: Inaudible. 'IR. NEARY: Well, this must have been something that came into force recently because for the last two years they have been doin~ it. >-ffi. REID: That is right. 5006

May 2, 1974 Tape No. 1466 NM - 3 ""R. NF.APY: Well when was it changed. MR. REID: It is a different programme. That is what I was trying to explain to him just now, the difference in the programme, how we moved the people because they wanted to move to a certain area and that they can always come back to their home again if they want to, always can. Mil. NEARY: Well, ~fr.

Chairman, I would like for the minister to make this perfectly clear because - HR. llEID: Re can come down with me and 1 will give him all the literature he wants and help him out down there. :'ffi· NEAP~_:_ Well let me see now then if I got it straight because this is a new innovation, it must have been made recently because up to a few months ap.o - ~-· REID: You were not allowed to sell the land and that unless the government okayed that vou could sell it. '-!R.

NEARV: Okay, here is the way the pro11ramme worked up to now: A person would want to say ·relocate on the south shore of Conception Hay, P,O to the minister's department, make arrangements for the relocation r,rants and so forth and then the deed to the land had to be given to the minister. The individual still owned the home. Yes, Sir. ~- REID: ThP individual owned the home. MR. NEARY: The individual owned the home but the government took the deed to thP land. '1R. R_E.!!2.:. ~ot: now. ~EAR!_:_ Not any more. In other words, all rip.ht then,let me p.et it straight now. '-'R.

REID: But now you cannot always go and sell it where you like. MR. NEARY: Oh well now, this is what I am getting at. What are the strings attached to it? MR. ~11!..:..._ It all depends, theycan sell it in a certain place and probably one month aftEr we would have to take them out again. 'MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, let me put this question to the minister, 5007

'-fay 2, 1974 TApe No. 1466 NM - 4 Can a family for instance leave Bell Island, relocate on the south shore of Conception Bay with assistance from the minister's department and then sell their property on Bell Island? "m. REID: ~IR. NEARY: ----- 'MR. REID: '-IR. NEARY: MR. REID: MR, NEARY: If it is a receiving area and they want to sell it. Well it is a receiving area. Yes, they can do it. And they can sell their property. Yes. Well, Sir, that innovation must have come in within. the last few weeks. MR.

REID:_ Because we had a big problem of having the homes responsible to us falling down and we had to do the repairs. It was much better to leave the home with the person and let them sell it. ~~JY._!lY: Well, Sir, this is a new innovation and I think it is a pood one. ~._llEID: Sure it is. MR. NEARY: The only thing is, Sir, the only thinr is that the people who relocate may change their minds, they may buy a house down on the south shore of Conception Bay. "Ul. REID: _ Right. MR. NEARY: Then how can he control this?

He says; "I am going back to Bell Island, back to my old house and now I am goinp to sell the one I have up here." ~!R. REID:_ They still own that home. They are still allowed to come back and settle on Bell Island. You see we are not taking out of towns so much as you people were. We are only resettling collD!lunities if one hundred per cent of the people want to and we think it is going to be the right and proper thing for that community. MR. NEARY: Well, '-fr.

Chairman, I am sorry, Sir, I am belabouring the point but I have - !:ffi. ~ID: There are several action communities right now • We are taking out all the people who would like to get out and can find 5008

May 2, 1974 Tape No. 1466 NM - 5 job opportunities in certain areas where they are p,oing. MR. NEARY: WPll, Sir, I have to get this straight because I do not want to belabour the 1,oint, But is the minister saying that a community that votes one hundred per cent to relocate, that all the people can go with assistance from the minister's department and then they can change their minds two weeks after and all come back again? MR. REID: No. No. No. MR. WM. ROwE: What is he saying? ~_:_NEARY: What is the minister trying - ~1R.

REID: I am trying to tell you that if they find a certain job in a certain area we will help them to move to that particular area and they will still own their home. They will still own their home. We do not want to take a community out. We do not want to tear it down and leave it flat and no one there. We are not doing that. ~ostlv what we are doing - ~- NEARY: So they can all go back if thev want to? MR. REID: Mostly what we are doing is developing every single thinp we oossihly can in a community so they will not have to leave those communities. This i~ why there are no more people leaving right now. MR.

NEA~Y: That is nothing new because the - ~- REID_;_ It is something new. We are doing something the - MR. NEARY: It is nothing new, Sir. Do I have to start again, Sir, and go all over this orovince and pinpoint the industries that the much-abused Liberal Administration established; Grand Bank, Fortune, Marystown, Labrador City, Stephenville. Yes, what about the oil refinery? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: You know, Mr. Chairman, that is just foolish nonsense. You cannot win in that kind of a game, the minister knows that. You cannot win at that kind of nonsense.

We heard the member for Placentia East this afternoon in this debate dwelling on the past, Well certainly 5009

May 2, 1974 Tape No. 1466 NM - 6 I suppose to a certain de?,ree, Sir, we can learn from our experience, I suppose we can. You start off with a - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Pardon? 5010

~fay 2, 1974 Tape 1467 (afternoon) \,ell, I only have a ljttle knowledge. I am not educated like the - AN HONOURABLE MEHRER: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. IB'--1 l'IR. NEARY: That is right and a little knowledge could he dangerous. I am not educated like the ~inister of ~ines and Energy. Sometimes a little commm' sense, Sir, is away better than all the education that the minister has. A little common sense is better sometimes. I think we have proved heyond any doubt, Sir, that one does not have to be smart to make money in this world.

As a matter of fact it is the stunned ones, the stuoic'! ones who make the money. It is not the dedicated peool e in this ·porlc't who make the money, Sir. MF. CHAIR"AN _("'R. STAr,G) : Order, please: I think the honourable member knows that he is out of order at this point. I must bring it to his attention. ~._NEA~~:.. }1r. Chairman, this is something new that the minister has brought up and I would like for him to elaborate on that a little bit because that is ouite an important point.

If an inrlividual or jf a whole community can now relocate and go back, no strings attached, they can get assistance from the public treasury, p,o to Labrador City, say, work clown there for a couole of weeks, a couple of months, a couple of years and say, ' Well, I am fed up with this now. I think I will go back home,' the property is theirs no strings attached, if this is what the Minister ts saying, I would like for him to confirm that. Well, Sir, the minister says now that he is not saying it. Well, will the minister please tell me what it is he is saying?

I want to know what this new policy is because a lot of my constituents are interested in relocating. AN HONOURABLE f,,IEJ"-BER: Inaudible. ~R. NEARY: I said no what? AN HONOURABLE 'MEMBER: Voluntarily. "!R, NEARY: Sure. They would go voluntarily. If they want to go, they go. It is a free country. AN HONOl!RABLE MEMBER: They were kicked off before. 5011

May 2, 1974 Tape 1467 (afternoon) IB-2 }'R. NEAP.Y: They were not kicked off before. Do not be so foolish, As a matter of fact the advice they got from me was to stay where they were. What would one do with 14,000 people, Sir, in a community with no industry? Mr, Chairman, apart from a few little grants to put up greenhouses and to get that little fish plant that we started there, what re:i 1 effort has 1-eer. made to rehabilitate Tle l l Island? The minister savs, ''No, they ar0. not forced out.' Well.

Sir, there are 500 Bell Islands in Newfoundland and they are being forced out because of services that are being downgraded deliberately or nqt deliberately, consciously or tm.consciously. The ¥inister of Finance is too miserable to gi.ve people money to put in water and sewerage and they are still using the privies. llow many communities in Ncwfotm.dland like that today? How many communities where one cannot get over the roads today? We have heard netition after petition in this Rouse presented from community after community about the state of the roads, about the condition of the equipment.

We are told, Sir, on this side of the Bouse that since the Tories fonned the administration that the highways equipment is in pretty poor condition and breaking dot.m continuouslv. Is that not a downgrad:f.ng of serviceis? 'People cannot p.et over the roads and over the highways. Could we not interpret that on this side of the Bouse as neople hcing forced out of their community? What happens, 1'1r. Chairman, if what the minister said comes true, thflt everybody who can get a ,iob leaves and they leave nothing only senior citizens and widows behind?

Will there nr>t he a downgrading in that community and the poor old widows and the poor old senior citizens will pay the price, be forced out? What about the invalids? What about the people on social assistance? The min:1.ster, Sir, stated beyond any doubt that the criteria is ioh opportunity. I want the minister to clarify that and set the record straight because I do not helieve it, That is a new policy, Sir, but it is a dangerous policy. I hope that the 5012

,, ~ay 2, 1974 Tape 14fi7 IB-3 minister will clear that matter up. Nm••, what else do we have here? Sell property - I would like for the mintster to clear that one up because I still clo not know what the policy is on th11t. There must have been a change in the last few weeks. T think these are the only points that I want to raise Sir, but J hope we do not get carried away with any foolishness that thiR programme is any different than any other prop,ramme because it is not and there are not more ;obs.

Even though the minister spent $5 milljon or $6 million, lashed it out to sawmills and funeral parlors and all the other th1n2s, heautv salons and newspapers, even though the minister has done that and I would say more power to him - I told him last year that I wish he had !'i5fl million. He has to 1 ash it out and I say to him again lash it out hecause there is no WEY that the minister can put a dent in the problems of rural Newfoundland with $2.5 million. The minister knows that. It i.s just foolishness to try it. He could not put a dent in it.

That government, Sir, cannot point their finger to rural Newfoundland today and say, ' Look, we have cured the problems of this community and that community. '· They cannot, Sir, as most of the industries the minister assisted were already there anyway. The only difference now is that they are usin~ the taxpayers' money to buy a new piece of equipment or update their eauipment or to expand. They are usinp, the taxpayers'· money

whereas before they used to use their own. The minister is getting a lot of apolications from individuals who have been turned down. The minister knows that. I can tell him cases. They have been turned clown by the Indu~trial Development Bank, turned down by the finance companies, turned down by the Chartered Banks and they come to the minister, •·Yes, sure. Give it to them. Okayl Good! Maybe they wiJJ make a go of it. Take a chance. I believe in taking chances.' ' Sir, this honourable crowd cannot say in all conscience that they have put a dent in solving the problems of rural Newfoundland. 5013

May 2, 1974 Tane 1467 TB-4 People still have no choice, ~r. Chainnan, but to loo~ to where the industries are and to make an attempt to relocate, to move their families if they can, to try to better themselves, get nearer the hospitals and the schools, give their children a better opportunity in life. That principle is still there, Sir. It is still there. 'i!Othing can change it. People will move of their own free wilJ. They had to move for 500 years in this province without any government help. Look at all the people who moved into lluchans without one cent out of the public treasury. What about Bel] Island?

How many moved over there when mining started,without a penny? How many moved into !-1:arystown? How many moved into Corner Brook and Happy Valley and Labrador City? They all moved without any assistance from the public treasury.

The only difference today is that when people want to move to better themselves,to emnloyment opportunities, to industrial areas, to where the bright lights are because sometimes people are overcome and dazzled by the fact that one has to be living where the neon signs are, that one has to be living near the hip, supermarkets and all this sort of thing, the only difference between that situation and what happened fifteen, twenty, twenty-tivF-, fifty ·· years ago in Newfound] and when mininp. and log!l;inp. started was the fact that the people had to move at their own expense.

Today they get help in moving and this is probably a good social ref om. It is a good thing. Nothing wrong with it if it is handled properly. Sir, do not ever anybody on that side of the House get up and say that this crowd over here, this much, much abused crowd over here forced people out of their communities when in actµal fact the programme that we are talking about at this moment is precisely the same as the programme, Sir, that was carriec'I on for ten or fifteen years in this province. I do not know how long. Probably fifteen or twenty years.

Sir, I would suggest this to the government: that if they feel that people who moved previously were done an injustice, that 1Jeonle were literally given a screwinp: hy the much-abused administration, 5014

Xay 2, 1974 Ta1>e 1467 TB-5 that neople were forced to leavP. their communities. were drive n ou t almost at the noint of a bayonet, jf, ~r . C.hairman, thr ~overn ment members and the Progressiv e r.onsrrvative Administration really helieve that, why do they not m:tke the benefits retroactive? A,~ l!ONOl'RASLP. 1-'E}'B'PP: Inaudible. ~ . NF.ARY· I wish they were servinSt milk in this House. Sir, my ulcer today is not in very good shape. When I hear the kind of stat ements comin~ out of the minister - yes, send me over a drop. If they 5015

May 2, 1974 Tape no. 1468 Page 1 - MW really believe in 1what they are saying, Mr. Chairman~ if the minister and his colleagues are saying, "Look,you put the boots (I thank the Minister of Industrial Development)' to the people in rural Newfoundland, you forced them out of their communities," well, Sir, if I really felt that, believed that and Iwere not trying to be hypocritical and Iwere sincere,do you know what 1 would do, Mr. Chairman? I would review every case of every person, every family who moved from every connnunity in Newfoundland. AN HON. MEMBER: The honourable gentleman would send them all back. MR.

NEARY: No, I would not send them back. I would give them what they are entitled to, if I felt that they were entitled to more. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: I would not mind it at all. I would give them everything they were entitled to. I would not be so hypocritical as to stand in this committee and dwell on the past and say that the people should have gotten this and they should have gotten that and they should have gotten the other thing, unless I was prepared to put up or shut up, put my money where my mouth is. Mr. Chairman, they are now the government. AN HON. MEMBER: -, MR.

NEARY: That would be some wad of money. So what! Now the minister has put his finger on it. He says that that would be some wad of money. Is the honourable gentleman putting money before human feelings and human beings? I know why the honourable gentleman is not doing it,because he does not I have the courage of his convictions and he does not have the do re me. We are talking about consolidation, resettlement. AN HON. MEMBER: He is off the subject, Sir. MR. NEARY: I am not off the subject. MR. EVANS: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Let us have no more nonsense, no more chaw, no more lip about that sort of thing, Sir.

Why, Mr. Chairman, it would almost make one - no, I better not say it, Sir. 5016

May 2, 1974 Tape no, 1468 Page 2 The Member for Placentia East down there, Sir, in his few remarks mentioned about the coastal boats calling into the various communities along the Placentia Bay and along the Southwest Coast, Well, Sir, I had the privilege to make a trip last July on the "Petite Forte"and, Mr. Chairman, it was one of the most magnificient trips that I ever made in my life, I would recommend it to any member of this House, I travelled on the"Petite Forte"and I took two of my kids with me, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR.

NEARY: It was away ahead of the"John Guy"or the"Kipawo." It was away ahead of the "QE -II", believe it or not. I enjoyed it better, Mr. Chairman, I can tell you that. I enjoyed it much better, The crew of that boat and the captain, my Godl I am telling you, there is nothing they would not do for you( It was a pleasure. But, Sir, the point I am making is this, I am not trying to put in a plug for CN but it is a very worthwhile trip, very relaxing, I went right from Argentia to Port aux Basques. We called into every little community on the way along.

I am surprised to hear the honourable member say that the coastal boats would not call into Merasheen Island, for instance, where the fishermen go back in the summertime. Mr. Chairman, Woody Island was relocated, was it not? Was Woody Island resettled? Woody Island was not resettled? Well, Sir, I will tell the honourable gentleman what I found out on Woody Island.

We left Arnold's Cove and we were going out to Woody Island and before we got into Woody Island I said to the purser on the ship; "Look ., is there anybody living on Woody Island now?" "Well", he said, "I will tell you, there is one gentleman living on Woody Island." AN HON. MEMBER: That is not true, MR. NEARY: Well, okay, this is what he told me. I found out from the expert that there are six families there but this is what I was told now. they get in Placentia Bay from the CN, I just want to show the services 5017

May 2, 1974 Tape no. 1465 Page 3 He said, "There is one gentleman there and I think he is a Norweigan." I said, "What!" I said, "I thought all the people had left Wo.ody Island." He said, "No, there is one man there who is a Norweigan," We pulled in and the lights were on. There were a half dozen lights around the harbour and there was one man only, I could not see any sign of life except this one man.

They threw the rope into him, he pulled the line ashore and then they tossed in a mailbag with probably about one letter in it, hove it down on the dock and put a cardboard box ashore and pulled the lines back on again and went on. While he was doing that, I said to this gentleman, "Is there anybody else living here besides you1" I thought he said, no but apparently there were other persons there.

I said, "You do not sound like a Newfoundlander." He said, "No, I am from the Scandanavian Countries." ''Well," I said, "how did you get over here on Woody Island?" He said, "I read about Newfoundland in a magazine and I liked what I read and so I came and this is where I settled right here." AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: He built his own house, He said to me, "Now when you go back, I wonder if you could do me a favour? Could you speak to the M.inister of Resources and see if you can get me some crown land here to do some farming." I said, "My God!

There is all kinds of vacant land here, why do you not help yourselfl" I thought he was a hippy or something, you know. He may be but I do not know. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: There may have been a number of hippies out there. Anyway the gentleman seemed to be very sincere. But, Sir, - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: No, but all the services were there, Mr. Chairman, all the services were there. The coastal boat went in because it 5018

May 2, 1974 Tape no. 1468 Page 4 had a couple of letters and a small box to put ashore. This happened all the way up the South Coast, right from Argentia to Port aux Basques. I am surprised to hear, Sir, that they had given up calling into these islands where there are - MR. AYLWARD: If the honourable gentleman would permit. I am not talking about the islands that are inhabited, I am talking about the islands tha~ have been just resettled where the fish go back just for the summer months to fish.

Admittedly, they call to the islands that are permanently settled but I am talking about the areas where they just - MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, well I know what the honourable member is talking about and there are a fair number of people who go back there. I think he has a valid point. I am trying to support the member's point. I think he has a valid point. I am surprised to hear that they do not do it.

Sir, when we got down to Terrenceville, I believe, there was a gentleman who came down on the wharf to me and he said, "Look, can you get the coastal boat to call into so and so place?" I said, "I thought there was a road going down there." He said, "Yes, but I want to leave me car here and I do not want to drive her down over the road, the road is too bad, I wants the coastal boat to go in." My God! I suppose it was about forty or fifty miles out of our way. He went up and raised hell with the captain. He said, "Look, skipper, you got to give us this service." I found this all the way down the coast.

They almost had their own personal service, believe me, with the coastal boats. I think the member will agree with that. They do. Mr. Chairman, if they are not calling into these islands, when the people go back there in the summertime, I think they should because there may be a hospital case there. They have no communications, They may want to correspond with their relatives on the mainland and so forth. MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible). 5019

May 2, 1974 Tape no, 1468 Page 5 MR. NEARY: I will tell you something, Mr. Chairman. that if there were no resettlement programme in this province that honourable member over there would not be in this House today, He would still be down under a stage somewhere in Flat Islands, He would not have the opportunity he had when he moved up to Glovertown, Ml{, MORGAN: The opportunity was there. MR. NEARY: The opportunity was not there, Sir.

The honourable member would be down there with a chaw of tobacco, He would be down there, Sir, with a chaw of tobacco, sitting on the head of the wharf, jigging a few tomcods, He would not be in this honourable House because he would not have had the opportunity, SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR, NEARY: There is one of the greatest arguments, Sir, in favour of resettlement, Take a good look at a living example, ¥..R, MORGAN: (Inaudible). MR, ROBERTS: As is the Member from Fogo. MR. THOMS: It can be reversed, MR. NEARY: Well, Sir; there is an argument against resettlement, One for and one against.

If the member's family, Sir, had not moved out of Flat Islands under the resettlement programme, the honourable member would not have had the opportunity, Sir, to represent the constituents of Bonavista South in this honourable House, He would have still been down there somewhere going out to his - MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: Ma. NEARY: The government forced them out, Joey Smallwood. Is not the honourable member glad? Forced them out. Look at the big fat pay cheque the honourable member gets today ,for being forced out of Flat Islands, MR, EVANS: That is no argument, MR. NEARY: That is no argument? MR.

EVANS: No. MR. NEARY: Sir, one cannot win. No matter what kind of logic 5020

May 2, 1974 Tape no, 1468 Page 6 one tries to put forward, Sir, one cannot win, One may as well lie down and die, one is knocking one's head on a stone wall. 5021

Tane 14~0 (Afternoon) PK - 1 n.ut anvway, •~r. r.hai rman, I do hone that the 1'1'emher for PJ acentia Fai:;t wi.J 1 follow, wiJ 1 ton t1-iat matte .r of the coastal hoat hP.cause I think it is a Rervice that is hadlv needed un there, that manv TlP.onle !?O out then' in the summert:l .me. Somebody tried to he emotional the o