Volume XL · Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Fourth Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard} Spea"fl.er: Honourable P.]. McNicholas Number 21 21 April 1988

The House met at 3:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! I would like at this time to L"'Ule with respect to the point of privilege raised yesterday by the hon. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout). Members are aware that the duty of Speaker with respect to a point of privilege is limited to determining whether a member has established a prima facie case of breach of privilege. In this instance, I do not believe the hon. the Minister of Fisheries has established a prima facie case of breach of privilege.

I have examined Hansard of April 19, 1988 where the questions alleged to have given rise to the breach of privilege were asked, and also the press statement concerning the matter made yesterday by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I believe the questions asked by the member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford) on Tuesday were valid questions to ask, which the Minister of Fisheries was free to answer or not answer, as he saw fit. The questions involved allegations as to matters of fact. According to Beauchesne, Fifth Edition,

Section 19, sub-section (1), and I quote, "A dispute arising between two Members, as to allegations of facts, does not fulfill the conditions of parliamentary privilege." Concerning the press statement, I again quote Beauchesne, Fifth Edition,

Section 19, sub-section (3), "Statements made outside the Ll048 April 21, 1988 Vol XL House by a Member may not be used as the base for a question of privilege." In

summary, my examination of the relevant material does not disclose a prima facie case of breach of privilege. Oral Questions MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. M.R. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, my question goes to the Minister of Development and Tourism (Mr. Barrett). Mr. Speaker, in the House yesterday I put a question to the minister, through Your Honour, having to do with a contract that was awarded, I believe in February sometime, to a consortium of companies, the parent company of which was headquartered in Paris, France. To which the minister replied, Mr.

Speaker, that there were proposals requested on a global basis for the construction of that offshore floating system, or at least for the design of it. I wonder can the minister tell the House, Mr. Speaker, if he is aware of any Newfoundland companies that had joint venture arrangements with other than French companies that were in a position to bid on that tender call, that proposal? MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development and Tourism. No. 21 Rl048

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, that the contt"actual agreement that has been entered into by this government with very creditable international/local companies will bt"ing a degree of technology and capability to this Province seems to have somehow eluded the member opposite. As I said yesterday, a number of pt"oposals had been sought, t"eceived and evaluated. There are a number of reasons why this government felt in its evaluation that this particular consortium would be the one that would be asked to proceed with this particular study.

This particular consortium, involving this particular French company to which the member alludes, is the only one that has developed so fat" the technology capable of putting in place offshot"e of this Pt"ovince a floating production system that is of a concrete base construction, and a production technique and a technological capability that would allow this Province to benefit significantly ft"om the industrial benefit component of this kind of a project . The normal expertise and technology that is presently known by the other proponents to the greatest extent involves steel construction technology.

It involves, as stated by several of the offshore companies wishing to become involved in floating pt"oduction systems for the offshore Newfoundland, the conversion of existing steel production platfot"ms or the construction of steel production t"e facilities, that would in all probability see a great amount of construction activity take place outside of the boundaries of Newfoundland.

The particular technology that this pat"ticular consortium can Ll049 Apt"il 21, 1988 Vol XL bring to the Province will ensure the maximization of industrial benefits, job creation and long-term benefits, and is the leading edge of technology fot" employment elsewhere in the wot"ld based on a construction technique that cannot be found anywhere else. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Twillingate. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I am not questioning the credibility of the company nor am I questioning its competence.

I am questioning the wisdom of the minister in awarding a very substantial contract to a Ft"ench company in light of statements that have been made by his colleague, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout), and his Premier (Mr. Peckfot"

d) with respect to the Canada-Ft"ance boundary dispute. Mr . Speaker, my question to the minister is this, the company to which the contract was awarded, Bouyges Offshot"e, it is a French company. The undet"standing is that that. company made an unsolicited proposal to the government concet"ning the design of a floating offshore facility. The minister, Mr. Speaker, is no doubt aware that there is a Norwegian company, for example, and I believe a company in Sweden that do in fact have the necessary expertise to engage in that kind of work, and that there are companies in this Pt"ovince with whom these other two companies could have and are indeed No. 21 R1049

affiliated that could have carried out that design. Now would the minister, Mr. Speaker, table in the House copies of the proposal call or tender call whatever documents were involved in this action - so that we can see exactly what the specifications were, if in fact there were any specifications, and why in fact other companies did not bid on the proposal? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. MR.

BARRETT: The gentleman opposite should know that responses to requests for proposals contain a significant amount of very confidential information, information that is peculiarly in the hands of the people who actually respond, information that in the competitive commercial world that is out there, which I presume the member has some information, some knowledge of, would prejudice and would cause great economic concern and disadvantage if that information became public.

The government, in dealing with proponents on an international or even on a local scale, has to maintain the confidentiality and the creditability of being able to seek information that will allow it to make a decision to further the aims of the government in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. It cannot do that if it is perceived or known to publicly disclose all that confidential information to .which it gets access. The member opposite should know that.

I should also probably inform the gentlemen opposite, and Ll050 April 21, 1988 Vol XL his colleagues, that this particular project will deliver from government funding in this Province of the total value of the project, $187,795, and the total value of the project, Mr. Speaker, is $1,939,000, $1 million of which, or in excess of $1 million, is being contributed directly by various French companies, including Bouyg~s Offshore.

The amount of money that was being tendered, or that had been negotiated, was less than $900,000 of that $2 million amount, of which the amount of money that directly flows into the hands of the French company is only $187,000. Now, Mr. Speaker, how the member opposite can construe that this government is somehow influencing the international decisions of negotiations between the federal government in Ottawa and the government of France on our offshore boundary and fisheries dispute, how that can be upset by $187,000, I cannot understand. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER: A final supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon . the member for Twi1lingate. MR. W. CARTER: The last time the hon. minister's party or government refused to table certain vital information, I think the excuse used was that it might betray a patent, and I am referring now to Sprung. Now the Minister, Mr. Speaker, in h.is statement - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! No. 21 R1050

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, yesterday in his reply the minister said, 'This department did, in fact solicit globally for proposals to produce a t"eport with t"espect to new concepts in floating production systems.' MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. W. CARTER: My question, Mr. Speaker, is this: If the Minister was willing to advertise globally, I presume by that he means in newspapers around the world or tt"ade magazines, if he was willing to advertise in those magazines calling for proposals, then surely that is no longer secret information.

Surely, then, the members of this House are entitled to copies of advertisements or other information that he might have released or published in various trade magazines. I ask the minister, again, would he table all pertinent information with respect to the proposal call for the design of this floating system? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Development and Tourism. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, how silly, how absolutely, absurdly silly can this member be! We are not tendering for paper clips, we are not tendering for envelopes.

We are talking about a global community that is well known to anybody who is in the business. They only number half a dozen companies all over the world. You do not run newspaper advertising Ll051 April 21, 1988 Vol XL asking for proposal for floating productions technology that will involve a concrete method of construction. That is absurd. You do not even go for a trade magazine for it. That is just something that is known. It is known by officials, by people in high technology, people who are in the industry. You can point to three, . four or five different groups of companies globally.

You just involve yourself in the negotiations with them. You isolate them. They are easily identifiable. You do not run newspaper ads. You do not put together a big form of requests for proposals on something that is singularly identifiable as four Ot" five internat.ional groups of companies that have any capability at all in this type of technology. MR. W. CARTER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon. the member for Naskaupi, I would just like to make one brief comment. I do not want to cut into Question time.

The reason I am not recogn~z1ng the hon. member fot" Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter) is not because of his lengthy questions or the lengthy answers of the han. Minister of Development. But if we are going to have a considerable number of questions and answers I think we should try and condense both questions and the answers. The hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct a to the Minister of Agricultural and Development (Mr. Power). No. 21 question Rural, Northern On 8 May R1051

1987, the Premier held a press conference and made a press statement which said in part, 'In addition, the governrnen t would have direct control over certain types of business decisions of importance to the Province and for this purpose will be represented on the company's Board of Directors.' He was making reference, of course, to the Sprung project. I would like to ask the minister what type of business decisions were being referred to and what does the term 'direct control' mean in this context? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Rural, Northern Agricultural and Development. MR.

POWER: Can I have the question repeated, please? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Naskaupi . MR. KELLAND: A quick point of Speaker. order, Mr. If I have to repeat my first question, I would still expect my supplementaries. Is that fair? MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. There is no particular requirement to have a supplementary at all. The hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: If the minister is awake now, we will try it again .

On May 8, 1987, the Premier, in a the press conference, said Ll052 April 21, 1988 Vol XL following in part of his statement, 'In addition referring to Sprung 'the government will have direct control over certain types of business decisions of importance to the Province and, for this purpose, will be represented on tbe company's Board of Directors.' What types of business were being referred to does the term 'direct mean in this context? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Agricultural Development. MR. POWER: Minister and decisions and what control' of Rural, Northern Mr.

Speaker, as it relates to the Board of Directors of the Newfoundland Enviroponics Organization, we have four persons on the Board of Directors. Obviously those members of that board will be making normal business decisions as they relate to the running of Newfoundland Enviroponics. There is nothing out of the ordinary in that. There are nine directors on the board, we have four, and obviously they will make the kind of decisions relating to marketing, production levels, and general business decisions that are made by directors of any company. MR. KELLAND: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: the At the same conference, Mr. Philip Sprung said the following, "Substantial benefits will accrue to the people of the Province in the way of nutrition, reduced No. 21 Rl052

prices, and employment opportunities ... Now, I am wondering if the minister will tell us if we are now benefiting from the reduced prices that we were promised, and how would the reduced prices, if we are getting them, compare .and impact on the mainland prices once we start exporting out of Province? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Agdcul tural Development. MR. POWER: Minister and of Rural, Northern Mr. Speaker, somewhere in the future the members opposite are going to have to acknowledge that there is a very successful operation in Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

POWER: of the highly could We have heard on this side House every kind of imaginative situation that possibly develop as to why operation will not work. We a facility in Newfoundland this have that has grown tomatoes and sold tomatoes at a price acceptable to the Newfoundland people who bought those products in their marketplace.

They were bought and paid for by Newfoundland consumers, so thought they were charging. somebody must have were worth what we In the case of the cucumbers, we are still producing cucumbers being sold in Newfoundland, being sold at a pdce that the consumer is evidently satisfied with, because they keep purchasing the product. The fact is tnere is going to be a lot more product on the market, Mr. Speaker. L1053 April 21, 1988 Vol XL The problems that we have had at Newfoundland Enviroponics relating to tomatoes are going to be resolved. We are going to have a large number of products on the market in Newfoundland.

They are going to be sold. Newfoundland Enviroponics is going to work. We have 150 employees there in production and, as I guess I announced yesterday or the day before, we wi 11 have in excess of 150 employees as we continue to maintain our production. The activity there is going to work. The products are going to be consumed by persons in Newfoundland and outside of Newfoundland. That is the reality of it . And sometime in the near future members opposite are going to have to acknowledge those facts. MR. KELLAND: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. It is interesting to note this is the first time I have heard an Agricultural Minister admit that there are some problems in the Sprung operation. I would like to ask the minister if he is absolutely satisfied that adequate markets for the Sprung produce have been identified and developed, or does he have some reservations at this point that such will be case once full production is reached? MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern No . 21 Rl053

Development. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, it is not the first time we have acknowledged that we have had some problems in getting the . Sprung project to full production and capacity. I also acknowledge that members opposite have problems with their hearing, because they refuse to listen to facts, they have terrible problems with logic, and they also have a political problem that tries to make sure that anything we try in Newfoundland has to fall. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. POWER: It has to fail for the benefit of the Liberal and the NDP parties, Mr. Speaker.

That is why it has to fail, so that we can get from this side of the House to their side of the House so their purposes will be served. That is the function behind all of the criticism of Sprung. When we look at the idea of having a Sprung facility in Labrador, councils in Labrador City, Wabush, Happy Valley - Goose Bay are very adamant that they want the next opportunity to have a Sprung facility. When it comes market for to the point of the the Newfoundland Enviroponics facility, we are convinced, Mr.

Speaker, that there is a market for all of the produce produced by this one facility, which we estimated at 7 million pounds but now think may be well in excess of 7 million pounds of products per year. In Eastern Canada and in the Northeastern U.S. there are over 200 million pounds of those products imported every single Ll054 April 21, 1988 Vol XL year. They are imported from as far away as South Africa, Spain, Mexico and all parts of the world. We think we can sat.isify part of that market. We think we can do it, so that Newfoundland Enviroponics can make a profit. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: Mr.

Speaker. IofR . SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo . MR. TULK: I have a question as well for the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. As we understand it, Mr. Speaker, we now know that the Province's obligations to the Sprung greenhouse complex is as follows; $3.5 million in cash equity; $7 million guarantees to the Royal Bank; $2 million operating loan guarantees; $850,000 land contribution by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation; $825,000 to the Sprung Environmental Space Enclosure Company for a total of $14, 175,000, I believe.

My question to the minister .is as follows: Would the minister inform the House if the government have given or have been requested to give any further guarantees or other form of financial assistance either to the Sprung Group of Companies or to Newfoundland Enviroponics? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Agricultural Development. MR. POWER: Minister and of Rural, Northern Mr. Speaker, we have made known No. 21 Rl054

all of the information about the Mewfoundland Enviroponics facility that members opposite have asked for. When we made that infonnation known, obviously there is some concern on the opposite side that somehow we are getting taken for a big ride . in Newfoundland, because we are doing this very novel and innovative ind~stry which is not happening any place else in the world. Contrary to what some newspaper reports might say, there is not anything similar in Ontario and there is not anything similar any place else in the world.. It is being done for the first time here.

It is something that we have a great deal of faith in on this side of the House. We are convinced that it is going to work. If, on occasion, as we have had in the past, have to give an addi tiona! guarantee, i.f we have to do the lights, we are going to do whatever is required to make this a success story in Newfoundland. We are convinced that it will be. We are convinced that there will be many other Newfoundland Enviroponics type facilities in Newfoundland in years to come.

The research and development capabilities of that facility, its capacity to grow all kinds of products that this marketplace in Newfoundland and in Eastern Canada and in the Eastern U.s. badly need, convinced us there is a very substantial market and we will do what e ve r is necessary to make the project work. MR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, member for Fogo. MR. 'l'ULK: the hon. the Mr. Speaker, perhaps the hon . Ll055 April 21, 1988 Vol XL gentleman did not understand the question, because he certainly did not answer it, so let me put it to him in a slightly different form.

I can assume, then, and I guess the Legislature can assume, that there have been no further obligations or guarantees of any sort given by the government to this project other than those that have been announced? Is that correct? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Agricultural Development. MR. POWER: Minister and of Rural, Northern Mr. Speaker, I will say it again.

And it is very, very unfortunate, as the Minister of Development mentioned to me the other day, that it is almost impossible to get business people to come to Newfoundland to invest, because if you read a national newspaper, all you see is critici .sm when you t1·y a project in Newfoundland, and how Newfoundlanders, or some persons in Newfoundland with vested interests, try and tear that project apart. We will table in this House every piece of information that we can without jeopardizing the viability of this project.

If there are any additional monies that are going to be requested or will be l."'equest ed, that we as t.he government decide to give to the Newfoundland Enviroponics operation, when we do it we will gladly table it in this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TUL~: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Nq. 21 Rl055

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, does the minister's failure to deal with the question that I just asked him, in view of the fact that I asked him had there been any further obligations taken by the government to this project, mean that there have been some further obligations undertaken by the government? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Agricultural Development. MR. POWER: Minister and of Rural, Northern Mr. Speaker, 1 t is the same question asked many times around.

The point is that we have made known all of our financial obligations to Newfoundland Enviroponics. As we take on any addi tlonal financial obligations with Newfoundland Enviroponics, or any other company that we assist to stay in business in Newfoundland, whether it is fish companies, whether it is hydroponics companies, we will table this information in this House, as we have don~ very successfully for nine year term of office of this government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Mr.

Speaker, my question the Minister of Agricultural and Development as well. is for Rural, Northern I assume the hon. minister is now Ll056 April 21, 1988 Vol XL entertaining questions. I think my colleagues finally woke him up. I am going to change gears a little, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DECKER: There are regulations, Mr. Speaker, governing livestock and pets coming into this Province. The minister wi 11 be aware of The Livestock Health Act which is administered by his department. In view of the recent outbreak of rabies in Northern Newfoundland, in my district MR.

MATTHEWS: You do not have them, do you? MR. DECKER: So the minister laughs at that, he thinks it is funny, does he? Is the minister satisfied that regulations are being adequately enforced on the North Sydney-Port aux Basques run? It seems to me that that ferry looks like a floating zoo sometimes coming into this Province, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Agricultural Development. MR. POWER: Minister and of Rural, Northern Mr.

Speaker, just for the sake of members opposite, I was not listening to the first question I was asked because I was reading an issue with some articles about agriculture and things that are happening in this Province and in Atlantic Canada. And, it might serve members opposite well if I No. 21 R1056

send over a copy of that newspaper so that they might ask a few questions about agriculture, because they have not asked me either one since the House opened for this session. Mr. Speaker, we have a very serious problem in Newfoundland as it relates to the rabies outbreak on the Northern Peninsula. We found several foxes that came over on the ice from Labrador that did carry rabies with them. We are very, very concerned as a government that the rabies which is now isolated to a part of the Northern Peninsula, the Roddickton area, could spread to other parts of the Province.

We have undertaken jointly between my department and the Department of Wildlife in particular to make sure that we eradicate that rabies problem on the Northern Peninsula if at all possible. That is very, very important.

It is going to cost the government possibly in excess of $500,000 to make sure that we localize that problem, because once it becomes widespread on the Island portion of the Province it can become something which. would be almost impossible to eradicate As it relates to the regulations that we have in place to make sure that rabies does not come into the Province through the ferry system or through the airplane system, I am concerned. We have the regulations in place.

I did receive a letter the other day from one person who had travelled on the North Sydney ferry, who recounted the story where her pet was supposed to be inspected and an inspector was supposed to arrive at their vehicle before getting on the ferry, but it was not done. I have since asked my Ll057 Apri.l 21, 1988 Vol XL staff to make sure, and especially with this problem that we have on the Northern Peninsula, that all of our regulations are very strictly enforced while this, I guess, threat of rabies is presen~ in the Province. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: By coincidence, Mr. Speaker, I have a copy of that same letter, and the letter refers to a complaint that was made to the minister's office back in September of 1987. I ask the minister: Will he explain why these complaints were treated so frivolously by his department and were not checked out until after rabies had come to this Province? The minister will also be aware that the foxes which were caught and killed are red foxes, not the Arctic fox.

There has not been an Arctic fox from Labrador proven to have rabies in Newfoundland at this stage, Mr. Speaker. They are all red foxes, local foxes. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Agricultural Development. MR. POWER: Minister and of Rural, Northern Mr. Speaker, a couple of points. First of all, I do not think I said Arctic foxes. I said foxes that were on the Northern Peninsula had brought the rabies from Labrador, not necessarily Arctic foxes but red foxes. In 1987, if there was a complaint No. 21. Rl057

made to the department I am sure one of the best Ministers of Agriculture that this Province has ever had - the man is now Minister of Forest Resources (Mr. R. Aylward) and sits to my right - took action on it. When I found a complaint last week, when that letter came to my notice, I certainly gave it to my staff to follow through in every way, shape and form to make sure that this threat of rabies is localized to the Northern Peninsula, and does not end up going to Nova Scotia or other parts of mainland Canada.

We also have regulations and the enforcement should be there to prevent rabies from coming to the Province from that direction. So, Mr. Speaker, I am convinced that we do follow up. We do have a very good staff, and I am sure they take all the precautions that are hwnanly possible to take. MR. DECKER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, is the minister certain that rabies were introduced by Arctic fox or red fox - it is practically impossible - from Labrador?

Has the minister considered the possibility that this disease was introduced by pets coming across the Gulf because the Department of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development did not ensure that the regulations were enforced? They did not bother shutting the barn door until the horse had gone away, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Ll058 • April 21, 1988 Vol XL The hon. the Agricultural Development. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, Minister and it unfortunate the member the questions seems to of Rural, Northern is very who asked have taken on the questioning technique of the member for Port de Grave (Mr.

Efford), which is always to cause alarm, always to incite and excite any kind of panic in the Province . If. the member opposite has any kind of scientific, factual information that the rabies problem on the Northern Peninsula came across on the ferry system, then I think the responsible thing to do would be to go to our chief of veterinary services in the Province to notify those persons, to notify myself, so we can take appropriate action. There is no evidence, to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, that the small problem that we have on the Northern Peninsula is going to become an epidemic in this Province.

There is no knowledge from anyone that :t have been talking to that it has come in on the ferry system. It · is very likely a localized case, a very small case of some foxes coming across on the ice-floes from Labrador. All the scientific information has proven that that is where that comes from. If the member opposite has some information, then he should deal with it in a responsible fashion, and not this irresponsible one. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: No. 21 Rl058

My question, Mr. Speaker, is for the Minister of Justice (Ms. Verge), and it has to do with a commitment she and the Premier have made over the last eight or nine years towards introducing a new Election Expenses Act. My question, Mr. Speaker, i.s this: Given that a committee of this House, headed by the member for St. John's North (Mr. J.

Carter) , back in 1983 recommended a spending limit of $25,000 on any individual campaign, and given that we now have the Leader of ~he Official Opposition's expense statement for an election, and it turns out that he has spent $41,486.41 on the ~indsor Buchans byelection, given those two things, will the minister assure us that she will introduce legislation controlling the amount of money that can be spent on elections so that we do not have elections going to the highest bidder, as we clearly had in this case? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice . MS VERGE: I have indicated to this han.

House and to the member for Menihek in the recent past, and I will say it again now, the government has not finalized our examination of various proposals for a new election's legislation. It is a complicated business. ~e do have the benefit of the deliberations and recommendations of the committee, which we are considering, and we are looking at the experience of other jurisdictions in Canada. ~en we complete our exercise I will be in a position to indicate so to the member for Menihek . MR. FE~ICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ,. Ll059 April 21, 1988 Vol XL MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FE~ICK: My supplementary, Mr. Speaker, is to ask the minister that since Sean Power, the PC candidate in that election, spent $34,161, and clearly is $9000 above even the generous limits proposed by the committee, will she assure that there will be some sort of spending limit on these election campaigns? It is clear in this case that the PC Party attempted to buy it back but were clearly outbid by the Liberal Party, which seems to have the big bucks. ~ill she assure us that we will have a spending limit before we go into any other elections? MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, of course it is impossible for me to give that assurance. It is a matter for the government as a whole. The government as a whole will agree on any changes in our elections legislation and as the appropr-iate time, if I am still Minister of Justice, T will introduce it in the House of Assembly. Certainly, it is an issue that we have been considering. MR. FE~ICK: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. FE~ICK: As other members have clearly indicated, we have raised this on previous occasions.

A year ago it was also raised, and at that time the minister stood and indicated that the enforcement divisions of No. 21 Rl059

this legislation are faulty. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FENWICK: My question to the minister is this: Since the enforcement provisions are by her own admission not enforceable in law, and therefore even this minimal amount of reporting could have been dispensed with by the individual members concerned, could she assure us that at least that enforcement provision will be brought in before this session of the House of Assembly prorogues, dissolves or whatever it is likely to do? MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Justice. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, again I cannot give that assurance.

It is something that we will take into consideration. But I will point out again that there has not been a practical problem in that candidates have for the most

part voluntarily submit ted election expenses lists. In the case of recent Windsor Buchans byelection, all three candidates have filed statements of election expenses. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han . the member for Bonavista North. On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the President of the Council. MR. SIMMS: Just for clarif lcation, perhaps I have incorrectly · recorded the starting time of Question Period, but I had 3:05 as the beginning . I just checked with the Clerk at the table and that would indicate that the time has expired for Oral Questions. MR.

SPEAKER: Obviously, the Speaker was having a little snooze today and the time has elapsed. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. I took a note that it was at 3:05, but I fot:"got to watch the clock afterwards. At this stage I would welcome to the Speaker's gallery membet:"s of the Royal Canadian Legion from Branch Number One and Branch Number Fifty-six. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. LUSH: MR. PEACH: Mr. Speaker, my - Mr. Speaker . . MR. SIMMS: Ll060 April 21, 1988 Vol XL No. 21 Rl060

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Housing. MR. PEACH: I have some answers to four questions on the Order paper, questions 33, 44, 100, and 142. I do not think, Mr. Speaker, it is necessary for me to read those five or six pages of answers because they are repeats of some 150 questions that are already on the Order paper. Petitions MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon . the member for St. John's East. MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition that I would like to present on behalf of 308 persons who have signed a petition appealing to the government .

I would first like to present a petition that will enable me to present this petition. ·~o The Hon. House Of Assembly Of Newfoundland And Labrador.. We, the undersigned, do petition the hon. House of Assembly to g.i ve its support to a petition with 308 names on it, calling for the inclusion of the term sexual orientation in the Newfoundland and Labrador Human Rights Code." SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. LONG: That is a copy of the petition with three signatures on it, including myself and the member from Menihek. Ll061 April 21, 1988 Vol XL Now, Mr.

Speaker, I would 1 ike to read the prayer of the petition that I am asking the House of Assembly to support. It reads: "Ontario has joined Quebec in prohibiting discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation and the Yukon has given second reading to similar legislation. "It appears ottawa will soon 'take whatever measures necessary to ensure that sexual orientation is a prohibited ground for discrimination in all areas of federal jurisdiction'." The quote is a reference to a statement made by the hon. John Crosbie.

"We, the undersigned, encourage the government of Newfoundland and Labrador to include the term sexual orientation in the Newfoundland Human Rights Code." That is a petition, Mr. Speaker, that I am asking the House of Assembly to give its support to, and I would like to take a few minutes to outline the spirit of the petition, and also talk about the context in which it comes forward. We have received fr.om the Minister of Justice (Ms Verge) earlier in this session an indication that her department will be presenting legislation called ,

An Act To Amend Certain Acts Having Regard To The Canadian Charter Of Rights And Freedoms. This proposed change in legislation from the Minister of Justice does not, at. this point, give us any indication whether the issue that is brought forward in the petition will be included. There has been a long process over the last number of years of consultation undertaken by the No. 21 Rl061

Department of Justice to review all necessary changes to our own act, given the adoption by the federal government of the Canadian Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms. The minister, I am sure, will be aware that this has been a very critical issue to many people concerned with human rights, and many other groups in our community. We have seen in the last number of months that the governments of Ontario, Manitoba, and the Yukon have joined the Government of Canada in bringing in legislative amendments to include the term sexual orientation as a grounds for prohibiting discrimination.

The intent of the petition is to present to the minister further representation by members of the human rights community, if we may put it that way, who are quite concerned about changes that the minister will be introducing in this session governing our own Acts with respect to the Charter of Human Rights. I would like to make reference, Mr. Speaker, for the record, to a brief that was presented a year ago, and copies were given to our office, to the Minister of Justice (Ms. Verge) from the Gay Association in Newfoundland and Labrador. The

preamble to the text of the brief begins with a quote from the United Church of Canada, the working unit on social issues and justice, the Division of Mission, in a brief that was presented to Parliamentary Committee on Equality Rights when they were considering the adoption of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I quote from the United Ll062 April 21, 1988 Vol XL Church submission.

"Cl tizens whose sexual orientation is gay or lesbian ought not to be excluded from the protections afforded to all other citizens through either neglect or failure of governments to develop the legislation that would provide that protection. To leave one group of citizens beyond the pale is a dangerous precedent. In a democracy it is equally dangerous to leave the decision about inclusion or exclusion of any particular group from human c-.ights safeguards to the will of the public at any moment in history." That, Mr.

Speaker, is a quote taken fc-om a text of the United Church of Canada's submission to .the federal parliament. Thec-e are other submissions included in the brief to the minister from the Canadian Psychiatric Association, and a very lengthy 1 ist of groups and organizations across Canada who have adopted, in one form oc­ another - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. member's time has elapsed. MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker, by way of conclusion, I would say to the minister that this is a very significant issue for many people, certainly many people in my own district who have made representation to me.

I would hope that the minister will be able to rise in her place today and give support to the spirit of the petition, as well as the members of the Official Opposition. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. No. 21. Rl062

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, I thought somebody on the government side would t"espond to it. I wish to speak to it. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. FENWICK: At"e you going to speak to it? MS VERGE: Yes. MR. FENWICK: I am SOt"ry. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I was pausing to wait fat" a member" of the Official Opposition to t"espond. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister" of Justice. MS VERGE: I would like to thank the hon. member for St. John's East (Mt". Long) and the petitionet"s for this petition , It is a very significant issue.

It is one that I, as the minister responsible for the Provincial Human Rights Code and the Human Rights Commission, have been addressing. I have appreciated the input on the subject I have t"eceived from the Gay Association in Newfoundland. The brief which the member read from is quite a comprehensive and well researched presentation. It is a submission which the government, as a whole, will address as we move ahead to improve and strengthen our human rights legislation. In doing this we are conscious of the contents of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Ft"eedoms.

We have watched L1063 April 21, 1988 Vol XL recent legislative changes in other provinces like Ontario, Manitoba, and the Yukon Territories. The Province of Quebec was the first jurisdiction in Canada to include explicit human rights protection without regard to sexual orientation. The federal parliament has not made this change to the federal Human Rights Code, but I understand it is something that the federal government is considering. Again, I thank the member for John's East (Mr. Long) bringing this petit ion to House of Assembly . MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Menihek. MR .

FENWICK: st. for the If a member of the official Opposition wishes to sup.port the petition, I would gladly sit down and allow them to have the time. AN HON. MEMBER: No. AN HON. MEMBER: You are a member of the Opposition. MR. FENWICK: Well, it is unfortunate. Mr. Speaker, I think it is important in this particular petition, and with the human rights we are talking about, to be very clear about what we are talking about here. The fact of the matter is, I do not think anybody here is asking to promote a different sexual orientation. This is not the purpose of it, and in that respect I think the No. 21 R1063

response of people like Grant Devine, and other what I call extremely backward Premiers, to the announcement of Svend Robinson, one our colleagues in the federal caucus, is, in our - AN HOM. MEMBER: Is he a friend of yours? MR. FENWICK: Yes, he is a friend of mine. I think he is a very courageous person, and he has a right to be a member of the House of Commons, even if he does have a different sexual orientation. And that is just the point we are trying to make. The problem we have, Mr.

Speaker, is that we tend to categorize people, and we automatically dismiss them when they have a sexual orientation that is different from ours. That, Mr. Speaker, creates incredible difficulties in their lives, and it is a situation that we cannot tolerate on an institutionalized basis. What we are asking the minister and this government publicly, is to state that this is not grounds upon which people can be discriminated against for the purpose of employment, for the purpose of housing, and for the purpose of any social or any generally available programmes.

I am the extremely disappointed that Leader of the official Opposition or any of the members of his caucus did not rise in their places to support what we consider an absolutely critical human rights issue. I am disappointed they have not done that. With that, Mr. Speaker, I wi11 sit down. Ll064 April 21, 1988 Vol XL SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HISCOCK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the bon. the member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: The Leader of the MOP said that nobody on our side wanted to speak to this.

The leader got up and said, 'I would 1 ike to speak to it, • and we did him the courtesy of letting him speak. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of order. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, to the point of order. If the hon. member would like to speak to the petition, we, on this side, would certainly be prepared to give leave. MR. SPEAKER: I have already ruled there is no point of order. MR. SIMMS: What I am saying, Mr. Speaker, is that we are prepared to give the hon. member leave if he wishes to speak to the petition. That is often done, frequently. Orders of the Day MR.

SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, Order 3. No. 21 Rl064

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting The Observance Of Remembrance Day." (Bill No. 1) SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Mr. Sp.eaker, it is with a great deal of pride and pleasure that I r.ise today to present this bill on behalf of the han. the Premier, who unfortunately is not able to be here today to present it himself, which he wanted to do. I, therefore, have been given that responsibility and I accept it with a great deal of pride. As I say, I am honoured to do so.

I also want to, as Your Honour has already done, extend a welcome to the very large delegation seated in the Speaker's Gallery, representing the Royal Canadian Legion. Branch 1 and Branch 56 have the largest number here, I think. I have also been told there may even be a representative from the Mount Pearl Legion, although I do not know if that is confirmed or not. In any event, we are delighted to have them here. MR. BARRETT: Branch 1 is in St. John's West, by the way. MR. SIMMS: I see. Branch 1 is in St. John's tvest, I am told. Anyway, we are delighted to have them here.

This is historic, I guess, to a certain extent. Mr. Speaker, I just want to briefly explain the purpose of the Bill. It is to provide, obviously, appt:"opt:"iate recognition and appropriate t"espect for those individuals who gave their lives, Ll065 April 21, 1988 Vol XL or suffered injury, in the service of their country during the Fit"st and Second World Wars, as well as the Korean Conflict. The Royal Canadian Legion, itself, had made representations to the government requesting revisions to the old Remembrance Day Act .

The purpose of those t:"epresentations was to ask the government to do this so that we could ensure that the spirit and the meaning of Remembrance Day is preserved. Mr. Speaker, we are going further than simply revising the old act . . We are, in fact, repealing the old act and replacing it with this brand new piece of legislation, this brand new act.

This Bill, and this act, will provide official recognition this is extremely important, because the old bill did not have this, the old legislation - of the Poppy as the symbol of Remembt"ance Day, and it will also ensure that Remembrance Day is always obset"ved on 11 Novembet". That is very important, too. Mr.

Speaker, the pt:"eamble to the bill is extremely impot:"tant, as well, in that it t"eflects a cornmi tment to Rememberance Day in the minds and the hearts of all Newfoundlanders · and Labradot"ians, and ensures that this day will continue to be a significant reminder to all young people who have not, and hopefully never will, experience the horrors of war. The legislation i. tself is not complicated, it is not lengthy, but it is certainly significant and important. Mr. Speaker, before I actually move Second Reading of the bill, I would like to read the

preamble of No. 21 Rl065

the bill. As I just said in my comments, the

preamble really reflects the commitment to Remembrance Day in the minds and hearts of all Newfoundlanders. It says, "WHEREAS our heritage of freedom and human dignity has, under Providence, been preserved through the unselfish devotion of those who sacrificed health, limb, and life itself in World War One, World War Two and the Korean Conflict; AND

WHEREAS the eleventh day of November has traditionally been set aside throughout the Province as a day to be kept and observed in each and every year under the name "Remembrance Day"; AND

WHEREAS since our hed tage of freedom and human dignity was forged through sacrifice, suffering and death our leaders and educators are urged to keep before our youth the meaning and significance of Remembrance Day and the need for a commitment to human worth; AND

WHEREAS it is fitting that on Remembrance Day the people of the province should pay grateful tribute to the memory of those who have died, cherish those who have suffered grevious injury, and dedicate themselves anew to the maintenance and furtherance of the great ideals hallowed by those sacrifices". That is the

preamble, Mr. Speaker, and I believe the

preamble really says it all. I have explained what the Bill will do quite succinctly and clearly. I do want to mention before I sit down that we indeed have a veteran ourselves, I believe, within the government benches. The member for Trinity - Bay de Verde is a veteran - L1066 April 21, 1988 Vol XL SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: - and we are extremely proud to have him in our caucus and in this House. I am sure I speak for all hon. members when I say that.

I may also say, incidentally, there are numerous other members in the House, certainly on this side and perhaps on that side, as well, who are ex-servicemen and very closely associated with the Legion in many respects, in many ways. I know the member for Pleasantville (Mr. Dinn) is very, very active and MR. DAWE: The Minister of Health (Dr. Collins has just gotten an award from the Russians. MR. SIMMS: I do not know if I will mention that, but I suppose that I could. DR. COLLINS: The Russians were on our side then. MR. SIMMS: Well, all right.

The Minister of Health, I am told, recently received a significant award from the Soviet Union. At the time they were on our side, I might say. And I know there are other members in this House who have been honoured, Mr. Speaker, by their own respective Branches of the Legion, have been made honorary members and so on. It is an extremely significant and extremely important piece of legislation and I urge all hon. members, as I am sure they will, to support this particular Bill. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. 21 Rl066

The Sergeant-at-Arms. MR. SIMMS: Oh, yes! I almost forgot our friend the Sergeant-at-Arms. How could one forget him? He has performed his duties magnificently. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: And our commissioners, of course, not to forget our friends who look after the security of the gallaries, and who perform their duties well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: .f:{ear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, as I have said, I am very proud, on behalf of the Premier of the Province, to move second reading of the Remembrance Day Act . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to express support on behalf of the official Opposition for this Bill. It is entirely appropriate that we should ensure that nobody in the future ever forgets the tremendous sacrifice paid by a few people so that the vast numbers of us that remain, and came into being after, could enjoy the kind of freedom that we do. And none of us should ever fail to recognize just what the value of Ll067 April 21, 1988 Vol XL their contribution to us was.

None of us should ever fail to recognize the tremendous price a great number of men and women paid so that we can stand in this House today and have the freedom to say and think the things we want to say and think. When we harken back to fifty years ago and bear in mind the threat. that existed at that time to our free world, we cannot fail to recognize just how much those men and women contributed to most of us, with the exception of one or two hon. members who were much too young to have looked after our own interests at that time. But we ought not to fail to recognize that.

It is entirely fitting and appropriate that this House should ensure that one day at least every year is set aside for the perpetual remembrance of the contribution those men and women made to us. I join with the Government House Leader and the Speaker in welcoming to the gallery today a good contingent from the Royal Canadian Legion. We are very pleased to see them, as we are pleased to see every day the smiling face of our Sergeant-at-Arms and the men upstairs who look after the galleries. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

WELLS: But at the same time that we do this, we should not overlook a story in The Evening Telegram today that notes that Newfoundland Korean war veterans have never been invited to participate in the contingent that goes, I believe once every five years, to Japan and Korea as a commemoration for No. 21 Rl067

the contribution former servicemen conflict. made by our in the Korean The price that many of them paid is no less than the price that a great many servicemen paid in the last war or in the First World War, but they tend to get forgotten. It seems that, in particular, the legionaires from Newfoundland who participated in the Korean conflict have been totally forgotten as the federal government, or whoever decides this on behalf of the federal government, has never seen fit, according to the story in today' s telegram, to invite legionaires from Newfoundland. I think, Mr. Speaker, that is a national disgrace.

The individual who is quoted in this story, Mr. Greening, says that, 'We would attend but we have never been asked. I guess there is not much we can do about that.' Well, Mr. Speaker, and hon. members of this House, I think, perhaps, there is something we can do about it. With the leave of hon. members opposite and our friends down at the other end of this side, I would ask that we agree to introduce a consent resolution, and pass a consent resolution very quickly in this House and send that resolution - MR. TULK: 'Simms'! MR. WELLS: I would like to have the attention of the bon. the Government House Leader.

Perhaps the han. the Minister of Health is looking after it, anyway, he is very attentive to the matter. I say this seriously: If Royal Canadian Legion members the in Ll068 April 21, 1988 Vol XL Newfoundland are saying that they feel there is nothing very much they can do about it, then surely the very least this House can do is step in and try and do whatever it can do about it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WELLS: What we can do, Mr.

Speaker, is pass a resolution with the unanimous approval of this House to ask the federal Minister of Veterans Affairs to ensure that .in the future there are representatives from those who served from Newfoundland in the Korean Conflict on the next and all following contingents that go to the commemoration. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WELLS: Clearly, Mr. Speaker, I endorse the comments of the hon. the Government House Leader with respect to the purpose of this bill and what it will achieve.

We should be acting in unison in ensuring that the day is always recognized and followed on the day when it occurs, so that .it is special and set aside to pay tribute to those who sacrificed so much. Nobody who exercises the rights and freedom that we exercise in this country today should ever, at any year- in the future, fall to pay the proper tribute to those who earned it for us. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPF.AKER: No. 21 Rl063

The hon. the membe~ fo~ St. John's East. MR. LONG: M~. Speake~. I would like to make a b~ief comment to add ou~ pa~ty's suppo~t to the ~esolution, and also to welcome ou~ distinquished guests who a~e sitting with us today in the Speake~'s galle~y. I might congratulate the gove~nment House leade~ for bringing forwa~d the bill as the fi~st item of legislation to be b~ought in in this session. I pa~ticular, I think the wo~ding in the

preamble as L"'ead by the House leader' is a quite finely CL"'afted piece of legislation. The

preamble, I think, makes the case quite eloquently that the action that is being taken by passing such a bill is indeed called for and is something that all Newfoundlande~s should be ve~y p~oud of. and that all th~ee paL"'ties in the House of Assembly can come togethe~ and pass such legislation. I might say. on a pe~sonal note. that I am ve~y pL"'oud to L"'epL"'esent in my district an histo~ic a~ea of the City of St. John's, which includes the WaL"' Memo~ia1 on DuckwoL"'th Street, and which is the site of the · annual RemembL"'ance Day Pa~ade.

I have made a point in the last two year's of retu~ning to the site of the Remembrance Day Parade and taking in the ceL"'emonies. I say retu~ning to the site, because when I was a younger' man, at age thiL"'teen and age fourteen, I was a member of an ai~ cadet squadron he~e in the city and so I spent many years, eveL"'y Satu~day mo~ning and every Wednesday night, going down to Pleasantville and participating in activities of the air cadet squadron . I might also add. on a Ll069 April 21, 1988 Vol XL pe~sonal note.

I take some pl."' ide in these matte~s. pe~haps because sometimes I think this in pa~ty, on this side, we aL"'e misundeL"'stood and mis~ep~esented in debate on issues conce~ing wa~ and peace. When I was a member' of the aiL"' cadet squadL"'on heL"'e 'in St. John's, the 510 Lion's Club squadL"'on, one year' we won the awa~d foL"' the best squadron in Canada, the McGillivL"'ay Shield. So it was in my fo~ative yea~s. during those days that I took a lot fl"'om the expe~ience of being in the aiL"' cadets and the milita~y foL"'ces, leaL"'ning public speaking, leadeL"'ship skills. and so on.

It. is in that spirit that I am now, today, proud to L"'ep~esent, as I say, the histoL"'ic distl"'ict of St. John's East, which includes the War Memol"'ial on Duckwo~th StL"'eet. I might · say that I had fo~ the first time, on Novembel"' 11 past. the oppoL"'tunity to visit the Pleasantville Legion Club and to meet some of the member's of that club at a L"'eception. The occasion fo~ visiting theL"'e was an lnvi tation to the l."'eception which I received when I attended the Office~s· Mess reception on Novembe~ 11.

I might just say as a final note that fo~ my paL"'t. in l."'ep~esenting the aL"'ea of Pleasantville and being awaL"'e that theL"'e is a Legion club the~e. and being a pel"'son who is engaged in a veL"'y public way in debate a~ound the issues of waL"' and peace. the debate we had yesteL"'day on the proposed NATO base, and the ongoing debate about the promise of nuclear powe~ed subs, it was a lea~nlng exeL"'cise for me to go to the Officel."'s' Mess on the day of November' 11 and spend two hou~s having a ve~y animated discussion with active No. 21 Rl069 ..

members of the Armed Forces, one or two of whom I went to high school with. We had a very lively discussion about the policies of the New Democratic Party and the position of our leader, Ed Broadbent, and my own position as a member of the House of Assembly who must do my best to represent the interests of people who live in Pleasantville, who are voters, and for whom I make representation in the House of Assembly. With those brief words and that personal note, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to add our Party's support to the bill and say that we join with aU hon. members, with pride, in g1v1ng our full support to the bill marking Remembrance Day, and also in welcoming with pride the members of the Legion who are in the Assembly today. (Break in Tape - Inaudible) MR.

TULK: I wonder the han. the House Leader would address himself to the question he is listening, I presume that was put by the Leader of the Opposition in his remarks, and if, perhaps, he would give a commitment to the people who are sitting in the gallery that indeed, within the next couple of days, we will see that action is taken to convince the federal government, or whoever the powers that be, that they should do the right thing? MR. SIMMS: (Inaudible). MR. TULK: That within the next day or so we can get together and put together that resolution. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Ll070 April 21, 1988 Vol XL Oh, oh! MR.

SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. SIMMS: I thank you very much. Perhaps I can address question momentarily. that First of all, I just want to say in summation that we on this side are delighted with the support for the bill by members opposite and by members down in the corner. I know that the Royal Canadian Legion appreciate the support of the Legislature on this very, very important matter and a very, very significant issue.

I neglected in my opening remarks, in introducing the bill, of course, to, for the benefit of members on the other side of the House, particularly, because I guess members on this side are very, very familiar, and I would expect members of the Royal Canadian Legion would be very familiar with the fact that this government has had in the past an extremely good relationship with the Royal Canadian Legion. We have had many, many dealings with the Provinical Command, the Provincial Executive on many, many issues.

I do know, for example, that we have, on occasion, assisted the Legion at their request with some help to send delegations made up of various sectors of society, not only veterans, but I remember school students and, in fact, I believe representation from the government to, I guess, Vimy Ridge. No. 21 Rl070

MR. YOUNG: Beaumont Hamel. MR. SIMMS: Beaumont Hamel, where they laid wreaths at memorials. We have helped the Legion in that regard on a couple of occasions, at least. I know that we work with them closely in assisting them in their annual convention and providing whatever little help we can. I was reminded by one member of the House, and ·I would be horsewhipped if I did not mention it, and I am sure the members of Branch 1, probably, are quite familiar with it, that a few years back, in fact, government provided the land, I believe, to the Branch on which it was able to construct its present Legion building.

So, for all of those reasons we are obviously very supportive on this side, and obviously from the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition and the member for St. J.ohn' s East, they, too , are very supportive. Not to belabour it, but I do want to address the issue that the Leader of Opposition raised in his remarks. Of course, we on this side are not concerned at all about debating a matter that comes before the House. We encourage it. We welcome it. Any member can bring forth whatever i tern he wishes to bring forth.

In this particular instance, I would only say that we would prefer to consult with the Royal Canadian Legion first before any action of that nature was to be debated in the House, because we often and frequently are guided by their views and opinions; they are the experts in these matters. Ll071 April 21, 1988 Vol XL SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: We have not had request from the Royal Canadian Legion as the government to pursue the matter the hon. the Leader of the Opposition raised. I know he read it ln the newspaper. But we have not had a representation.

If we do get one, as the government we will. be happy to act on it as we often have and always have, in fact, in the past. If members opposite wish to pursue the matter, of course they are quite free to do so, but I would, as I say, hasten to add that they should obviously have consultations if that was to be the case. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, few remarks , I trust be remembered with those the day wi 11 for some significance to those who are in the gallery, in particular, representing the Royal Canadian Legion. It certainly is an historical day for us and a significant day.

We are happy we were able to respond in a positive manner to the request made by the Royal Canadian Legion. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Observance Of Remembrance Day," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 1) MR. SIMMS: The next Order 4. item, Mr. Speaker, is Bill No. 16. Motion, second reading of "An Act To Amend The No. 21 a hi 11, Internal Rl071

Economy Commission Act." No. 16) MR. SPEAKER: (Bill The hon. Leader. the Government House MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, very much.

This next piece of legislation is the result of an ongoing representation, shall I say, and ongoing dialogue, ongoing communication, ongoing correspondence, particularly from one side or one corner of the House, on the question of Opposition rep~esentation, in particular, on the Internal Economy Commission which is the body that deals with matte~s related to the finances of the Legislature and the administrative issues that arise from time to time affecting the House of Assembly, its of flees and its staff.

I believe it is fair to say that the Premier engaged in cor~espondence, if not dialogue, with the leaders of the two parties opposite. Most of the correspondence the Premier had, I think, with the Leader of the NDP was initiated by him. I also believe the Premier may have had a word with the Leader of the Opposition on this particular matter to determine his feelings. MR. WELLS: Correspondence. MR. SIMMS: And some correspondence. MR. WELLS: Correspondence. MR. SIMMS: Okay. Correspondence. Ll072 April 21, 1988 Vol XL Essentially, Mr.

Speake~, what we are doing here today, the first time since Confederation I am not even sure there was an IEC back in those days. There may have been somebody charged with dealing with the adrninist~ative responsibilities associated with the House this has ever occurred. So I am delighted to be able to stand here today on behalf of the government and introduce this bill which will, for the first time, give Opposition representation to the Internal Economy Commission. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am assuming that there will be substantial support for this move.

I am assuming there will be conside~able support fo~ this move. The Leader of the NDP, fo~ example, back in February of 1987, a little over a year ago, wrote to the Premier about a number of matte~s ~elated to the Internal Economy Commission. One item that he raised at tha:t time, which we have not dealt with here and we may some time in the future, dealt with the reporting of what happens at an Internal Economy Commission meeting.

I am not sure that that. would shake the world, or if people would be all that excited about it anyway, but, in any event. that is not a matter that we have dealt with in this particular piece of legislation. I will say that at the outset in case the member has not read it, and I would suggest that he will be quite surprised and so on. However. the pertinent quote here Mr. Speaker, is this one: He says in his third paragraph, 'I point it out to you. because I believe that it is a major lack of good will. on the part of your government not to have Opposition representation on the Commission No. 21 Rl072

that decides how the Legislature is to be managed'. Now, that is a direct quote, Mr. Speaker, from the Leader of the Opposition's letter to the Premier, February 5, 1987. It is a major lack of good will on the part of the government not to have Opposition representation on the Commission. Well, Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to be able to say to the member for Menihek today that the government- AN HON. MEMBER: The Leader of _the Opposition. MR. SIMMS: No, no, the Leader of- the NDP. AN HON. MEMBER: You said the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIMMS: Oh, I am sorry! I meant the Leader of the NDP.

I am happy to say to the Leader of the NDP today, and to members of the House, that we have, in fact, taken his recommendation to heart, that suggestion, and we have acted on it, and here today you will find as you read the Bill that the Internal Economy Commission will indeed have Opposition representation on it for the first tlme since Confederation. Mr. Speaker, I do not want to get into all the kerfuffles that went on over the last year between the Leader of the NDP and the Premier. I have all the correspondence here but I am sure he will get up and debate it and argue it and so on.

But he will have his day, and he can certainly do that. He is welcome to do that. And even the member for St. John's East, Vladimir they call Ll073 April 21, 1988 yol XL him, if he wishes to rise in the debate may do so as well. But I want to tell you now, Mr. Speaker, what will encompass, or what will make up - I cannot think of a big enough word to use - the Internal Economy Commission from here on in. At the present time, by the way, it is made up of your Honour, the Speaker, the Deputy Speaker, and three members of the Executive Council, as appointed. MR. TULK: It is in the note. MR.

SIMMS: I do not have a note. MR. TULK: The explanatory notes. MR. SIMMS: Oh, the explanatory notes here. MR. SPEAKER: After "Now reads:" Right? MR. SIMMS: No, I do not see that, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: No, it is here. "Consisting of the Speaker and the Chairmen of the Committees ... " Right there on page 2. MR. SIMMS: Oh, yes. But I was summarizing for members, I did not want to read all those big words and parliamentary terms. It is made up of the Speaker, the Deputy Speaker and three members of the Executive Council, or three Cabinet Ministers, for those who are not aware of what Executive Council means.

That is what it is presently made up of. Mr. Speaker, with this significant No. 21 R1073

move here today the Commission will be made up of the Speaker of the House of Assembly, the Deputy Speaker of the House of Assembly, two members of the House of Assembly who are members of the Executive Council two Cabinet Ministers, in other words the Government House Leader, who will automatically be on it now, and the official Opposition House Leader in . the House of Assembly, who is the member for Fogo. And, Mr.

Speaker, not only are we giving one Opposition representation to the Internal Economy Commission in the person of the Opposition House Leader, we are going further than that and we are saying that we will also have on the Commission one other member of the House of Assembly who sits in Opposition to the Government, to be designated from time to time by the members of the House of Assembly who sit in Opposition to the government.

So there can be one more member from the Opposition and as soon as the Opposition, members who s it opposite, give us a consensus on wh~ that person shall be, then he or she shall be - well, there are no shes, all the shes are on this side - he shall be appointed t.o the Internal Economy Commission. And, Mr. Speaker, the other pertinent points are: In the second week of every session and from time to time thereafter, the Speaker .shall inform the House who the members of the Commission are.

Four members will constitute a quorum; it covers if there is a problem with the Speaker being absent for wh_atever reason, sickness or otherwise, the Deputy Speaker, a very capable individual himself, will preside over the meetings of the Internal Ec·onomy · Commission. The Deputy Speaker, Ll074 April 21, 1988 Vol XL for the record, is the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Greening). The Clerk of the House, the distinguished lady who sits at the head of the table in the centre of the floor, will be the Secretary, or in her absence, for whatever reason, one of the Clerk's assistants.

Now, that is the makeup of the Internal Economy Commission. One other significant thing we have provided for in this legislation, which will become effective after the next election, after the new General Assembly is formed after the next general election, is in this

Section 2. It will become operative. I just want to briefly tell hon. members what is contained in

Section 2 of interest to a lot of people. It says, Mr. Speaker, under this

Section 2, "The Speaker, after appropriate consultation, shall within sixty days of a general election or where necessary at any time between general elections," so it can also be done between general elections, "appoint an independent commission," that is a commission of inquiry of sorts, "of not more than three people to make an inquiry and a report respecting the indemnities, allowances and salaries to be paid to members of the House of Assembly." SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMS: Well, the han. member is going to have difficulty with this bill if he supports that aspect of it and is not too happy about the fir-st part. Mr. Speaker, that is always a No. 21 Rl074

problem that we face. In all honesty and realistically speaking, we have not addressed that issue properly, I suppose, in the past. We have done .i. t on an ad hoc basis. The government has taken an initiative from time to time . . We did have an enquiry, in fact, back after the 1975 general election, of independent people, made up of very dependable and reliable people. And, then recently, we had a Select Committee report by members of the House of Assembly, which was not totally accepted. Really it has been done in an ad hoc fashion. I believe this is a propeC' and significant move.

Sixty days after an election, or where necessary between elections, the Speaker will appoint an independent commission of not more than three to do an inquiry and bring back a report on the indemnities, allowances and salaries to be paid to the members of the House of Assembly. Those persons, incidentally, shall have all the powers, all the privileges and all the immunities of persons appointed as commissioners under The Public Enquiries Act. That covers any question that might arise of that sort.

Finally, those persons in that committee shall deliver their report, containing the recommendations, to the Speaker within ninety days of that commission's appointment. So, there will be fairly quick action on the matter and it will not be delayed unnecessarily. The Speaker, further, upon receipt of the report shall implement the Ll075 April 21, 1988 Vol XL recommendations as soon as possible after he has received it, after the Commission of Internal Economy has received it. It must be received by the Commission of Internal Economy and then, as quickly as possible thereafter, it must be implemented.

Perhaps one of the most significant things in there is Sub-section 13.(5) of

Section 2 which says, "The recommendations contained in the report referred in this

section shall be final and binding." So, there will be no argument or no debate. Well, there can be but there will be no point because the recommendations shall be final and binding. Mr. Speaker, I know a member OC' two on this side have an interest in speaking to this for a few moments. The member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) indicates he has an interest in speaking to it for a few moments and I know there may be a few others, so T will not take up the full hour that. I have allotted to me for the introduction of bills. It is not necessary.

I will just, at this point, move second reading and then we will see how the debate carC'ies on. I move second reading. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member foC' Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I do not intend t.o take the full hour in dealing with this bill either, as the President of the Treasury Board and Government House Leader has just said. But there are a few issues that we have to deal with here and No. 21 R.l075

that we should debate, a few things that should be said about this bill. I will try to say them in as short a time as I can so that other people can make relevant points and perhaps we can get on with other pieces of legislation. I would say to the President of Treasury Board, to the Government House Leader, what we are looking at here is something that brings us in line with the rest of Canada.

If you look, for example, at a comparative studies of Canadian Legislatures which was put out in 1986, you will note that there were, I believe, only two provinces in 1985 - and that has since been changed - that did not have this type of body, some sort of internal economy body. In 1986 , of course, the Nova Scotia Legislature put in place a Board of Internal Economy. At long last, in 1988, our provincial government has now decided to bring forward some legislation.

You would swear, to hear the Government House Leader speaking, that he did it entirely without being pushed, without being asked, and that the government did it purely out of foresight on their own part. Mr. Speaker, nothing could be further from the truth. I remember, as an Opposition member in this House, meeting the Premier one particular day on the elevator, I think it was in 1981, and proposing to hlm that we should have an Internal Economy Board. He then asked me if I would send up the relevant information to him and I did that.

Then, of course, Tools for the Job was put in place to look Ll076 April 21, 1988 Vol XL at members benefits and so on. I believe the member for Fortune - Hermitage and the member for Terra Nova were the two members from this side on that Select Committee of the House. It is interesting to note that the two amendments we are making to this piece of legislation today are the same two amendments, almost word for word, or two of the recommendations that the government turned down in October, 1985 when this report was put together.

So the point has to be made that we are some two or three year.s behind Nova Scotia and that it takes us three years to put into legislation a recommendat.ion that was made by a Select Committee of this House some four or five years ago. So the Government House Leader, in speaking to the bill, should not try to create the impression that this is something that his own government has dreamed up on their own. It has been done over a long process and it is long overdue. Mr. Speaker, it is long overdue from another point of view too.

It is no secret in this Legislature that the government we have served under since 1979, at least, has been somewhat. less the word is not generous than gracious in terms of supplying Opposition members and in giving Opposition members the . type of research facilities that they need, the type of offices that they need, and the type of secretarial help that they need, just to mention a few. One would hope that by putting Opposition representation on this Internal Economy Commission we will now see a change in the almost kind of I think the No. 21 R1076

member for Fortune Hermitage would agree with me - begging that you have to do in this place to even get a tight roof over your head. MR. J. CARTER: You have done fairly well so far. MR. TULK: The han. member for Port de Grave a couple of years ago, in order to draw attention to the kind of office that he had to work in, had to bring in two wa~tepaper baskets that he had been using to catch the leaks down in his office when it rained. Of course, people like the member for St. John's North (Mr. J.

Carter), who sit on the government side, and perhaps who rarely comes into his office to do anything - he answers two letters a year, I understand. I think that is his average, an average of two letters a year from his constituents those people see no need for office reason accommodations. For some or other this government until the recent past, to wanted, keep a Opposition . thumb down on the Hopefully, that kind of - MR. J. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. member for St. John's North. MR. J.

CARTER: When I hear my name taken in vain, I feel it incumbent upon me to rise and defend myself at the very moment that I am attacked. The House Leader for the Opposition suggests that I do not care if the Opposition is properly L1077 April 21, 1988 Vol XL housed or not. The point is that they are incredibly well housed and well looked after. I have not. had that much to say about it. I think that they are doing extremely well, and to suggest that I would throw them out in the cold is wrong and malicious. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. It is just a difference of opinion between two han. gentlemen.

The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: I am glad to see gentlemen is awake. occasion when he is. that the It is a han. rare As I was saying, Mr. Speaker, hopefully those two things will be taken care of as we see Opposition members sit on a board that governs this Legislature, its accommodations and benefits for members. Hopefully, we will now see input: and a different attitude displayed on the part of government and on ,, the part of the people who sit on the Internal Economy Commission towards the members who serve in this House. Mr. Speaker, we are going to support this legislation.

But I want to talk about the make-up of the Commission of Internal Economy as it is now being proposed by the government. We are going t.o support, as I said, without amendment to the legislation. As I said before, and as I have indicated pC"eviously, there is no doubt that this a vast improvement over what we have. But I also want to try and clear up a cute little trick that I believe the government House No. 21 R1077

Leader believes that the government has performed. I saw some mischievousness on the face of the government House leader when he stood up and said we have now put in place an Internal Economy Commission which will have, not only the Opposition House Leader on it, but as well, another Opposition member. That is how the legislation is proposed~ AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. TULK: I do not think we can play that game with this one. He is running back to his seat. The hon. gentleman was just getting comfortable. But the look of mischievousness was on the government House Leader c_annot be allowed to pass.

I want. to lay out for this Legislature the position we believe the government should have taken in this piece of legislation. The government House Leader stood in this place and said we are going to recommend that the official Opposition House Leader become a member of the c·ommittee and one other member of the Opposition. It is interesting to note that the han. gentlemen followed the two recommendations in Tools for the Job almost to the letter, with the exception of this one. MR. SIMMS: I do not see that. MR. TULK: You probably did not even see the bill.

In any case, it is interesting to note that he followed it almost to the letter with the exception of this one wee recommendation. Ll078 April 21, 1988 Vol XL Instead of having one member of the Opposition on the Internal Economy Commission, the report, Tools for the Job, indicated that we should have two members of the Opposition, plus the official Opposition House Leader.

It is also interesting to note, and I say this to the House, that. if you look at the correspondence that went on between the present Leader of the Opposition and the Premier, the recommendation of the present Leader of the Opposition to the Premier was that - MR. SIMMS: Which letter? MR. TULK: I will give the hon. gentleman the date. The date was October 29, 1987.

It is interesting to note that the Opposition House Leader suggested as his first suggestion for the structure of the Internal Economy Commission, that it would be· made up of the Speaker, the government House Leader, the official Opposition House Leader, one minister, and one private member from each recognized party. In other words, in this present Legislature you would have to have two members besides the Opposition House Leader. Now, that ties in perfectly with Tools for the Job in this present House. If there we~e four parties - MR. SIMMS: Are you going to read the rest of it? MR. TULK: Oh, yes.

I have no problem with the rest of it. MR. SIMMS: No. 21 R1078

(Inaudible) would be acceptable? MR. TULK: We will not say that would be acceptable, but this is our preferred structure, as set out by the Leader of the Opposition for this Internal Economy Commission. Now, it is interesting, as I said, that the government, th~ Premier, and the Cabinet, choose to say, 'No, we want one Opposition member.• Why did they do that, Mr. Speaker? I think the Government House Leader has some fear of what the NDP could do to him. He did not want to see them represented on anything because of what happened in the last election in this Province where he almost got smacked in Grand Falls.

He has some little thing going against them. MR. SIMMS: I do not have a little thing, I hate them. MR. TULK: Do you? Does it keep you awake at night? MR. SIMMS: Absolutely. MR. TULK: I would suggest that it probably does. In any case, Mr. Speaker, he says, 'Instead of having two, let us put on one member from the Opposition,' hoping to throw the ball in the court of the official Opposition to deny them the right to serve. So, Mr. Speaker, we accept this amendment with some reservation.

But to show that we are fair, that L1079 April 21, 1988 Vol XL we believe when its time comes the NDP should have representation on the Internal Economy Commission, we have said, let us al terna .te. Let us take one year with a member from the official Opposition and a member from, in this case, the NDP caucus. That is to be entirely fair to them. That was suggested by the Premier and accepted by us. We agree that that should be the case. Of course, then the Leader of the Opposition went back and told the Government House Leader how he could put that in place. MR.

SIMMS: In fact the Leader of the Opposition, I believe, even offered to flip a coin. MR. TULK: So I want to say to the hon. Government House Leader, he should not try to lay traps. I want to say to the NDP, that indeed, if he has a quarrel about his r~presentation on this Internal Economy Commission, ·his quarre 1 is not with the Opposition, his quarrel is with the Government House Leader ·for not taking our first recommendation that you have at least one Opposition member from each recognized party in the Legislature. · Mr.

Speaker, the second part of this amendment deals with something again that Tools for the Job recommended should be done. Of course, we have no quarrel at all with accepting the fact that there should be somebody other than the government, in this case, who will make recommendations on the benef.i ts that; members should have and the type of accommodations they should have. This Legislature should be the master of its own fate. We believe that. It should determine No. 21 Rl079

its destiny. It should determine what is going to happen to it. It should determine what ls t"equit"ed to do the job. We see the Intet"nal Economy Commission and, in this case, the Speaket" as the l"ight pet"son in whose hands that should be. Mt". Speakel", of cout"se we see also that if the Speaket" of this Legislatut"e l"ecommends cet"tain benefits fot" membet"s, it should not be left up to whoevet" the govel"ning pal"ty is, t"egat"dless whethet" it is the Libet"al Pal"ty, the P. C. Pat"ty, Ol" the NDP Pat"ty.

Once the l"ecommendations at"e made by an independent Ol" commission made up of tht"ee membet"s , then it should be implemented. We have seen all too ofte~ in this House whet"e we have had cet"tain commissions that have been struck to look at, not only benefits fat" membet"s but othet" things as well, and whet"e the repol"t of any commission of inquiry Ol" whatevet", comes back, it is put on the shelf, gathet"s dust and little action is taken. In this case, I think · the l"ecommendation has to be put in place almost immediately. That is as it should be. Mt".

Speaket", having said that, having laid out those few guidelines, I want to say to this House and the Govet"nment House Leadet" that we are pl"epared to accept those amendments that at"e made to the pt"esent Intet"nal Economy Commission Act and, of cout"se, we will be voting for it. Thank you. MR. MORGAN: Mt". Speaket". MR. SPEAKER (Pat"sons): The hon. the membet" for Bonavista Ll080 Apl"il 21, 1988 Vol XL South. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Heat", heat"! MR. MORGAN: Ml".

Speaket", I want to speak on this impot"tant piece of legislation, because it is a chance to deal with issues pet"taining to us as individual membet"s of the House of Assembly, out" benefits, privileges and salat"ies. I note with intet"est that Section (2) of this bill gives the Speaket" the authot"ity to appoint a commission sixty days after the ~ext genet"al election. The purpose of that commission will be to inquit"e into and repol"t upon the allowances and sa.lat"ies to be paid to membet"s of the House of Assembly. I think, Ml".

Speakel", the issue of payment to membet"s of the House of Assembly .is, of l"ecent months, a vel"y majol" controversial topic publicly. It is because of the fact that one membel" of this House has chosen to take an extra salary ovet" and above what he is paid as a member of this House. Today, without casting any innuendo, I am going to talk in actual facts and I will quote and give the facts as I see them. Of course, any membel" of the House can refute them if they think they are not facts. But I want to give the situation exactly as I see it and what is now occul"ring.

No member of the government s.ide of the House ovet" the years - I have been het"e fot" sixteen years now - could ever receive extra pay from government without some type of special legislation being passed. A membet" could not take extra pay or be paid in any way, No. 21 Rl080

whethe~ it be fo~ pa~liamenta~y assistants o~ a pa~liamentary assistant to a minister without some special legislation brought before the House of Assembly and passed accordingly. The pay of a member of the House of Assembly is not great. We know that. I have known it for some years. When I came in first, for example, it was only around $12.000 a year. I recall. MR. MATTHEWS: $10,000. MR. MORGAN: $10.000, my friend says. MR. MORGAN: I went fl'"om there to $12,000 and slowly built up. to about, l'"ight now. I do not know what the exact salary is. It is around $30.000 something a year. AN HOM.

MEMBER: (Inaudible) sessional. MR. MORGAN: Well, $30,000 actual salary. Adding on the extra benefits, you can talk about approximately $40.000. Many members of this House of Assembly gave up careers and half decent salaries to come into this House of Assembly to serve their constituents and to serve their Province. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. MORGAN: I know some in the Opposition who gave up jobs who had better pay. better income for their families than what they are now receiving serving their constituents and serving Newfoundland. L1081 April 21. 1988 Vol XL MR. TOBIN: The press are all in . MR.

MORGAN: In other words. they have a loyalty and a dedication to public service in Newfoundland, and rightly so. That speaks well for any member of this House who does exactly that. But, Mr. Speaker, when a member receives extra salary, if it is coming from government and appropriately approved by this Legislature, there is nothing wrong with it. It is quite legal and proper. But if a member chooses to receive an extra salary from some unknown sout.'"ce, and I repeat that, Mr. Speaker. because it is a very important point and it is a very, very sour point with me, and here is why.

I have sat in this House for over a year and a half now making less, to be exact. I did an interview with one of the media today to be carried on Sunda~ afternoon on View From The Hill, by the way, that I gave the facts. I have been sitting over a year and a half in here drawing a salary $22,000 less than what my actual pension is. Now, not a pension from the House of Assembly . Tt is not all that. That is a big pension. But I paid up all my pension premiums from telecommunications. T worked there fol'" almost ten years.

I bought up my premiums from teaching days and I bought up my premiums from wol'"king at. the university. Putting it altogether with my ten years as minister and my sixteen years now, going on sevent .een years as a member of this House of No. 21 Rl081

Assembly, my pension is $22,0000 more than my actual salary. So I am g~v~ng up money to be here like many other good friends of mine in the Opposition and on the government side, as private members, in particular. But some members and a certain member, and I am referring to the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Wells), we know well who we are referring to - let us be up front - says he cannot. I do not want to say Morgan is saying something, I am ·quoting a national news story from Toronto. It is in the national media.

One media here carried it from the newspaper this, Mr . do so. from Toronto, a story Ottawa Bureau of the media. I can table Speaker, . if required to I quote, for example - I want to get this right now - Mr. Wells, the Leader of the Opposition in the House of Assembly, told The Toronto · Sun, "the Party agreed to pay him the money so he could earn as much as the Newfoundland Supreme Court Judge when he took the leader's job last June." · Mr.

Speaker, if we are going to appoint, as we are doing this through legislation, an Internal Economy Commission, and members from the Opposition are going to be there, and if in return the Speaker appoints a special commission to look at the salaries of members of the House, does this mean that the Liberal Party is now going to promote that members of the House of Assembly to serve in here, and to serve their constituents and to serve their Province, are going to have to have a salary of $125 '000 a year' the same as a Supreme Court Judge? AN HON. MEMBER: Ll082 April 21, 1988 Vol XL Sure. MR.

MORGAN: Well, it is a matter of debate. Maybe members of the House deserve that much money. That is not a bad debatable question, maybe members do deserve it. They go through a lot of punishment at times as politicians, away from home, travelling. Maybe members do deserve that much salary. I am not going to argue that they do not deserve that much salary. Mr. Speaker, my argument is, and I am going to say it quite adamantly, despite any threats to me not to bring up the salary issue. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, the situation is that the Liberal Leader in this Province, sitt-ing as a member of this House, is drawing $50,000 a year and not one member of the House of Assembly, to my knowledge on this side, has ever indicated as to who they ever thought it was coming from, what .individuals. It is coming from certain businessmen. That has a.Jready been made known. But this story, as of the last two days nationally, is confusing the issue substantially. This story says - we will use the right terms here now, to quote the story that a senior Liberal Party official told the The Toronto Sun the money for Mr.

Wells comes from the Liberal Party of Canada. To go on to quote, Mr. Speaker, he says that federal tax credits for these donors are involved. MR. TOBIN: No. 21 R1082

Say that again. MR. MORGAN: I am quoting a federal Liberal Party source, there are federal tax credits involved. There are tax credits given to certain businessmen and are not going into the trough of Revenue Canada because tax credits are given to these donations or donors that is going to pay the salary of the Liberal Leader, a member of the House of Assembly. This is what the federal Liberal Party official is saying. Meantime, in all of this, the provincial President of the same Party, he is in the same story and he is also sitting on the National Executive . for the Liberal Party and he says , 'No , no , no .

There is no way that the federal Liberal Party of Canada is paying $50,000 to boost up the salary of the T~eader of the Opposition in the House of Assembly in Newfoundland. No, no, no, way it is not being done.' Mr. Speaker, who is right? Who is right if . the Liberal Party of Canada is not paying, as Mr. Whelan says, if they are not payin~, and if the Liberal Party of Newfoundland is not paying? The confusing

part is that Mr. Whelan says, and this is more interesting, he did not deny - and I want to quote him to be accurate but Mr. Whelan confirmed that 'money is raised by party fund raisers and he could not entirely rule out that federal tax credits are available in the arrangement.' So the local President of the Liberal Party is _confirming, as well, that some federal tax credits are available to those donors. Mr. Speaker, that is a most Ll083 April 21 , 1988 Vol XL serious issue and here is why.

Those donors, those businessmen - I know i _t is a sore point with at least six members of the Liberal caucus, a very, very sort point. I am tempted to name those six, but C'ather than cause problems in their caucus right now, I will not name them. But I know six. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Name them! Name them! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, they are losing control over there now. They cannot take this debate anymore. They are lowering the decorum of the House. The leader .is no longer in control over there. Mr. Speaker, rather than name these six people, let them in their conscience feel out what is going on.

Do they really know themselves what is going on, when a federal party official says something different from the provincial party? Now, when we come down to the bottom line, let us find out, Mr. Speaker, once and for all if any members of this House are getting extra salaries from outside the House and who is paying them. Mr.

Speaker, if I was aspiring to become Minister of Fisheries tomorrow morning I am not, because I am not running in the next election and it is well known and I was now sitting as a private member and drawing a salary from some businessman out there involved in the fishing industry, well, I think that when I became Minister of Fisheries there would come a tlme, Mr. Speaker, and rightly so, when IOUs would be called. Those who pay the piper call the tune. I do not know why the Leader of No. 21 Rl083

the Opposition is digging · this hole so big for himself politically in the Province, because all he had to do - he was drawing a total $125,000 from party funds before he became an elected member, and I found nothing wrong with that. If the member for Windsor - Buchans did not run for election, stayed outside the House and his party paid him, there is nothing wrong with that, in my view. But when he came into the House as an elected member, aspiring to become Premier of the Province, and he was drawing a special salary from certain hidden businessmen, hidden donations, nobody discloses from what source - Mr.

Turner is not going to give out $50,000 when he wants to hire an organizer for Atlantic Canada and cannot afford to hire him. He cannot afford to hire an organizer for Atlantic Canada for the federal party, yet, at the same time, pays $50,000 to the Leader of the Opposition in salary. So it is down to the question, Mr. Speaker, should members be allowed under the law to accept salaries from other sources, salaries paid by people who are not known to members of the Legislature and the Speaker and this Commission we are talking about, this very important Commission.

For example, should the Internal Economy Commission not know what benefits a member is receiving indirectly or directly? Yes ,. Mr. Speaker, indeed they should know. How can they deal with the issue, for example, of whether a member of the House can be given a government car, or· a person can be given a certain allowance to travel, whether it be a member, a parliamentary assistant, employees of the House or otherwise? So, L1084 April 21, 1988 Vol XL Mr.

Speaker, this Internal Economy Commission, I would say, have, in many cases, a very onerous responsibility when making decisions on the spendings of various parties, in this case three parties, and benefits for individual members. Mr. Speaker, today I am going to appeal to the Leader of the Opposition, and I am going to appeal in a most sincere way, because of all the conflicting stories. Today, I think, the Premier released a · press release on the very matter, and rightly so.

The man is not just aspiring to become a parliamentary assistant, he is not aspiring to become a minister, he is aspiring to become the Premier of this Province, and if he is going to receive some special benefits not available to the members for Bonavista North, or for Twillingate, or for Waterford Kenmounth the member for Waterford Kenmounth maybe fortunate, because he has a very successful business, I think, and he can carry on until he gets defeated again.

But other members may not have businesses, and I know other members do not have extra salaries and are earning less now than they could be earning if they were not in politics, not in this House of Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would now like to announce that. there are three questions for the Late Show at 5:30. The hon. the member for Gander is not satisfied with the answer given on education funding. The hon the member for Port de Grave is not satisf led with the answer No. 21 Rl084

given by the Minister of Fisheries. The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle is not satisfied with the answer to his question to the Minister of Education. The hon. the member for Bonavista South. MR. MORGAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, I am willing to say further that the issue ·is greater than salary, because the taxpayers of this Province pay the han. Leader of the Opposition; pay for a car allowance, pay for some travel through his office vote . If that is so, and it is fact, why is it, Mr.

Speaker - what I say now I will say outside the House - that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has to accept free, complimentary airline tickets to travel from businessmen when the taxpayers are paying for them? Why does he have to accept free hotel accommodations when he - is travelling on his own business, working to become Premier of the Province? These are pretty fair questions. I can tell the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that they are not just being posed by this member here, they are being posed by the general public, and rightly so.

If the Internal Economy Commission in their investigation of members' benefits find that the Leader of the Opposition has not got enough money to properly and adequately do his job, well, let the Opposition put forward representations in the proper way and get funds, through the House of Assembly, adequate enough to let the Leader of the NDP over here do his job adequately, to let . the Leader of the Opposition do Ll085 April 21, 1988 Vol XL his job adequately, and to let all members of the House do their jobs adequately.

Let them do it that way when they need extra money rather than go out and indirectly accept gifts, donations and contributions from people who are hidden behind the curtains, with regard to the public of Newfoundland knowing who they are. I would say, and other members, I am sure, will speak in this debate, that I am convinced that if it is looked at closely it is against the rules of this House to accept gifts of that nature, especially with regard to monies to have that member lobby for certain things.

In particular , it is against the law for a member to accept money from any individual, or individuals, and lobby for that individual while he is a member of the House. That is a most serious breach of trust in this House of Assembly, or any other pal"'liament throughout the world. AN HON. MEMBER: That is a high crime . IofR. MORGAN: That is right. It is considered a high crime, under the parliamentary rules. It is writ ten in the rules! So we are not talking about anything petty. It is not petty at all.

A few of the Opposition members who are maybe supporting it, I do not kno\'1, may laugh and smile, but It is not petty. It is not a petty issue. And whenever this commission is appointed to look at the salaries and benefits of members, after the next general election, and the Speaker is put in the Chair by Premier Peckford - that is how it will be again after the next general election, there is no question about that . No. 21 Rl085

AN HON. MEMBER: He might not be there. MR. MORGAN: He might not be there. not be there. He might When that commission is appointed, maybe that commmission - not the Internal Economy Commission now, the special independent commission to be appointed by the Chair should look at laying out firmly rules and laws that prevent members of the House of Assembly from taking hidden donations and contributions from outside the House to boost up their salaries. That is not a bad suggestion for that commission to look at.

If not, why is it fair for a Minister of the Crown to perform all the duties that the Minister of Transportation, or the Minister of Fisheries, or the Minister of Health have to perform; go out and do all the travelling they do working on behalf of the Government of Newfoundland and the people of Newfoundland and draw - what is a minister's salary, totally? The Minister of Health can probably tell me. DR. COLLINS: (Inaudible). MR. MORGAN: About the same as a MHA. So you double the MHA's salary and the minister's salary and bring in a total of somewhere around $70,000 or $75,000, maybe. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. No.

MR. MORGAN: $65,000, I mean. So, a Minister of the Crown does all the work and has all the responsibilities on $65,000, and was doing it for less than that over the years. When I L1086 April 21, 1988 Vol XL was Minister of Transportation and Communications, back in 1975, 1976 and 1977, it was not anywhere that then. We did it with less money, and travelled the Province and did our duties properly and adequately.

But what the people are now saying is that the man who draws the same salary as a minister - I think the leader of the Opposition is drawing a little more than a minister in salary, and he has a car from government. He has all these benefits and he cannot work within the confines of that kind of salary ] imitation, which is placed on all ministers and the Premier, he needs an extra $50,000 a year. Well, maybe he can show the Internal Economy Commission and the Special Task Force, when it is appointed, that it is necessary for him to have that $50,000 a year.

And if he can show that and prove that in a proper way, maybe he should get it, and ministers should get more money as well, but not be accepting it from an indirect means, ·as I said earlier, from hidden sources. And that is all I am saying. I will say again, Mr. Speaker, before I give other members a chance to speak, in particular the Leader of the Opposition, because this is all to do with him, the press reports are out, the media reports are being carried. I am not making any innuendo. I am not casting aspersions. I am merely quoting the facts. And the facts are out there.

All I want, and I think most members of this House want, and I would say many members in the Liberal caucus would want, the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Wells) to come clean and say, Yes, I needed $50,000 and here is the source. No. 21 Rl086

Because right now, Mr. Speaker, one source says it is the Federal Liberal Party of Canada, the President locally, in Newfoundland, says, no, it is not the Liberal Party of Canada. So, where is it coming from? That is all we are asking. Let the member for Windsor - Buchans clearly tell this House and tell the public where it is coming from. Where is it coming from? Now, Mr. Speaker, I think if it had to be looked at in a serious way why leaders would want more money the leader of the Opposition is leading a team of how many members over there - 16? AN HON. MEMBER: Fifteen. MR. MORGAN: Fifteen.

He has his members with their own travel allowances paid by the taxpayers, and they can go out and do their jobs in their respective districts and help their party at the same time. But the Leader of the NDP has only one person with him. Maybe the justification is- for the NDP to get more funds. I do not know. Maybe it would be. AN HON. MEMBER: A good point. MR. MORGAN: Maybe it would be. But it is the kind of question that should be addressed by that task fo~ce, whenever it is appointed.

I will not be on the task force, I will not be in this House, because I will not be running in the next election, but whoever - MR. BAIRD: You could be in Ottawa. MR. MORGAN: L1087 April 21, 1988 Vol XL - the Speaker chooses to appoint, and it could be members or maybe people from outside the House. Now, Mr. Speaker, I pose these questions and I pose them because I think the hon. the gentleman, despite the fact that he cannot always be believed as I said yesterday, I will stand always on the truth. I stood in this House for sixteen years and I have yet to be proven to be a liar.

I have yet to be proven to be a liar, after sixteen years. Sixteen years! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: It took almost seventeen years for one man to come into the House to call me a liar. One man, after sixteen years in here. I watched him on TV last night - 'a liar. He is lying.' t.Jell, Mr. Speaker, I will say again I have been here in this House and I have been representing my people of Bonavista South over the years and I have d:ealt many issues as minister and not as minister, and there is not one person who can look me in the eye and tell me that they ever proved that I was lying.

And this gentlemen over here cannot prove that I am lying, and let the public decide who is playing the little games - who is playing the little games - in this Province? Now, Mr. Speaker, I have never stood and condemned a member of the House of Assembly before because we are all peers. But I am today going to say something which I will say outside of the House any time. The hon. • gentleman I met with yesterday morning in his office in this No. 21 R1087

building does not deserve to become Premier of this Province. I say it right from the bottom of my heart, he does not deserve to become Premier of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: And that is a statement to make. MR. BARRETT: pretty My feelings precisely. MR. MORGAN: heavy That is a pretty heavy statement to make, but I make it and I will stand by it. Politics do not mean mean a row of beans to me anymore. I am not running anymore. I am not running. I am a free man. But I am not dead, Mr. Speaker. I am a Newfoundlander and I will always stand for Newfoundland.

And those who stand for Newfoundland, I will stand with them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: And I will never support those who are against Newfoundland. Also, Mr. Speaker, I will never stand with someone I cannot trust. MR. CALLAN: That grinning is called bravado. MR. MORGAN: I will never stand with anyone I cannot trust. I will not go any further with that comment. But I will close my comments, Mr. Speaker, and note what I am saying at the end of the debate for. me, this part.

I will sit down by saying I have made no innuendoes, I have made no accusations, I have L1088 April 21, 1988 Vol XL only spoken on the facts. And what I said I spoke from here, and I will stand by it any time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Opposition. MR. WELLS: the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I want to address the issues in the bill, as we should on second reading. This bill is a good bill. It is not perfect, but it ls good. It starts to deal with the issue properly.

There was some correspondence exchanged last Summer and I will give the Leader of the NDP the credit he deserves; he had written Premier Peckford before I became Leader of the Liberal Party and copies of his correspondence with the Premier were made available to me.

When I had an opportunity to deal with it, to discuss it with other members of the Liberal Party and consider the issue in general, I wrote the Premier on October 29 and told him what our views were and acknowledged that I was aware of the concern that had already been expressed by the member for Menihek, and told him of the difficulties we were having in terms of having the concerns of the Opposition put forward.

I made a suggestion that the Internal Economy Commission be constructed of the Speaker, the Government House Leader, the official Opposition House Leader, one minister and one member from each of the parties represented in the House, one private member. If that proposal, I told him, did not No. 21 Rl088

find favour, but that was our preferred one, we we~e prepared to accept any one of three others. Well, that was a total of four, and we told him our preference was in the order in which they were set out in the letter. The fact is he chose not to recommend any one of them. He came up with an entirely different alternative, the one that is now proposed. T do not know why he suggested in his letter, when he r,rrote in reply to me on November 6, that there would be one private member from the Opposition side.

He then said, 'I think this is a fair proposition and would like fo~ both of you to give it serious consideration 1 - that is the han. member for Menihek and myself 'perhaps the Opposition MHA could alternate between your two parties. 1 Well, while I was not very happy with the proposal, it was a lot better than we had up until now. So I wrote him back on November 16 and accepted the proposal and told him we were prepared to alternate, and we were prepared to flip a coin to see which one would go first.

So we have agreed with the proposal as a compromise, although our preference was clearly that each individual party have one representative on the Internal Economy Commission. Now, I am going to table this correspondence so that it will be available and in the record. Mr. Speaker, the second clause in this bill deals with the question of salaries of MHAs. I think what is a reasonable method of determining that salary has been recommended; it comes from the commit tee that considered it sometime ago and made a Ll089 Apdl 21, 1988 Vol XL ~ecommendation.

I believe it reflects that recommendation totally, so I see nothing wrong with it. It seems, to me, to be a reasonably approp~iate way to deal with it. Now, I want to deal with something else. I want to deal with the dishonest, hypocritical, supercilious picking and innuendo. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WELLS: If the word hyperc~itical is unparliamentary, I will withdraw the word, Mr. Speaker. What I am somebody - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. WELLS: talking about is I will withdraw anything that is unparliamentary, and I will find othe~ words suitable. What I am talking about, Mr.

Speaker, is somebody who does precisely, exactly the same as a person he criticizes for doing the same thing. Whatever you call that beast I do not know, but whateve~ it is, that is what I am talking about. That is what I am talking about. Whatever you call that individual, or person, or whatever it is. Now let me deal, first and foremost, with this question of salary. I am not receiving any extra salary as an MHA. I am not receiving any extra salary as a Leader of the Opposition.

I am, and I stated from the beginning, in receipt of a salary from the Liberal Party as its Leader, in exactly the same way as the han. No. 21 Rl089

the Premier is in receipt of a salary as the Leader of the P. C. Party. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WELLS: That is what I am talking about. Now, what I am talking about, Mr. Speaker, is the kind of man who would write this. I am talking about the kind of man who would write this. MR. PATTERSON: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order. MR. PATTERSON: A point of order to quote a couple of lines from MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker that is not a point of order. I ask you to call the hon. member to order. AN HON. MEMBER: It is a point of order. Sit down, boy. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Sit down! Sit down! MR. PATTERSON: The hon. Leader was bought like a bullock hoof and hide/ by the little tin gods on the mountain side. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, if that is going to persist, I would ask you to name the hon. members who participate in it. Because these hon. members Ll090 April 21, 1988 Vol XL have for weeks been sniping constantly. prepared to answer. MR. PATTERSON: sniping and Now, I am Tell us who you are getting the salary from. MR. WELLS: They do not want to hear the truth. SOME HON. MEMBERS: We do. MR.

WELLS: It is quite obvious they do not want to hear the truth. I am prepared to answer. Just let them be quiet, and they will get the truth. MR. MORGAN: It is long overdue. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WELLS: What I am talking about, Mr. Speaker, is the kind of man who could write this today. I was amazed to see a story on Mr. Wells' $50,000 Salary Supplement in the April 20 edition of The Toronto Sun newspaper. The story points out that 'Mr. Turner and the Federal Liberal Party ... ', and he goes through. I do not need to read that. MR. MORGAN: Why not? MR. WELLS: I do not need to read the whole lot of it.

SOME HON. MEMBE.RS: Read it . MR . .WELLS: I have no problem with it. He is just quoting what has already been No. 21 Rl090

quoted by the hon. member for Bonavista South. I want to deal with what he says at the end. "If Mr. Wells wants to be Premier, he should be his own man with no IOUs outstanding. He has to come clean. Right now we do not know where he is coming from." Now, I am coming from the same place the Premier is coming from. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WELLS: Or, Mr. Speaker, does he think the stork brings him the money . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WELLS: Or the Easter Bunny. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Mr: Speaker, on a point of order . MR.

SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Bonavista South. MR. MORGAN: The han. gentleman is now proving again what I have always thought of him. AN HON. MEMBER: It is the pri~ciple of the thing. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. WELLS: That is not a point of order. Ll091 April 21, 1988 Vol XL MR. MORGAN: He is attacking a member of the House who is not here to defend himself. He is now attacking the Premier, and the Premier is not here to defend himself.

It is quite unfair what the member is now doing, attacking the Premier when he is not here to defend himself. MR. YOUNG: And it is not true, what he is saying. MR. WELLS: I will wait for tomorrow. not finished. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of order. The hon. the Opposition. MR. WELLS: Leader of I am the Mr. Speaker, I would ask hon. members to show a modicum of · courtesy and fairness and let me say what T have to say without interruption. I listened to that hon. gentleman make some of the most scurrilous, unfounded remarks that anybody could imagine, and I sat and 1 istened to him.

Now, I did him that courtesy. If he does not have any courtesy, Mr. Speaker, would you please name him and remove him so that the rest of us can get on with the business of the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! No. 21 Rl091

A point of order, the hon. the President of the Council. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I just want to bring to the attention of the hon. member that he has now used several unparliamentary comments, and before the Speaker had to rule him out of order he withdrew them. He has now used another one, he made reference to the scurrilous comments of the han. member. I refer Your Honour to Page 110 of Beauchesne. 'Scurrilous' is a comment and word that has been ruled unparliamentary, as Your Honour will be able to see. I suggest the hon. mem