Manitoba Hansard — 25 March 1977 (Sitting 27B, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-27b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

TIME: 2:30 p.m. THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Friday, March 25, 1977 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY ESTIMATES - CORRECTIONS MR. CHAI RMAN: If the commi ttee will come to order ' we are on Page 33 of your Estima tes Books. Resolution 64(b )(1 ). The Honour able Mem ber for Ro blin. MR. McKENZIE: I just had one question about the marriage counselling courts. Are they all in the jurisd iction of the greater area of Winnip eg or are there some of these courts of conciliation services MR. BOYCE: They are all in Winnip eg, St. Boniface, and the north end , all in the city. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Chai rman, is ther e any provisions or cond itions being looked at so that they could be spread more widely across the province and not have to concentrate all these resources - and I know your resources are limited in the greater Winnip eg area and it may not be feasible - butl was wonderi ng, maybe the north, or just two or three in the near future. MR. BOYCE: I had asked staff to contain themselves somewhat, because as you are well aware, we have amendments to family law, or will be before the current Session, wh ich quite conceivably will have some imp act.

I thoug ht it would be better to hold that until this fall to see just exactly what they should do as far as modi ficatio n. I agree with the memb er, that we shou ld look at provi ding ... MR. McKENZIE: The whole province. MR. BOYCE: Yes. But it was for that reason I decided not to have it reviewed until these amend ments were dealt with by the Ho use. MR. McKENZIE: Mr .

Chair man, I would ask the Min ister on psychiatric referrals, how many psychi atrists are you involving - are they on your staff, are they operating priv ately, or would you suggest people go to them or do they go on a voluntary basis, or are you employing psychiatris ts? MR. BOYCE: All three. Perhaps I could ask Dr. Tavener to work out on a note where these people are deployed because they are all th ree of them, some are in Juvenile, some are in ... so perhaps he could di g them out for you and tell you just how many are located and where. MR. McKENZIE: Fine. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Reso lution 64(b) (1)- pass; 64(b}(2} Other Expendi tures. The Honour able Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chair man, it's unusual to have a change in Other Expenditu res. Ther e's quite a dif ference from last year. Could the Mi nister give an explanation for thi s. MR. BOYCE: Excuse me, Mr . Chairman? MR. EIN ARSON: There's quite a variation in figu res her e from last year. Could the Min ister gi ve us, Other Expenditur es in 64(b)(2) , that's the one you're on, isn't it, Mr. Chairman? From 64,300 to 16,500. Could he detail the Other Expenditur es under this item - 64,300 down to 16,500. MR.

BOYCE: It will take me just a moment to find that. There was a transfer from one appropriation to another department. Staff will have that for me in just a min ute. MR. EIN ARSON: Mr. Chairman, while the Min ister is looking this up, Other Exp end itures is one item that I always feel is of interest and I think of concern to us when we're dealing with Estimates, because when we talk about Other Exp enditur es, one wonders just where the money is going on this particular item. This is one of the reasons why I asked this question. MR.

BOYCE: I'm advised that that specific red uction from 64,300 to 16,500 is the non-renewal of contracts. Ther e were people included on contracts under Other Expe nditur es during the current fiscal year but they will not be continued in the next fiscal year. MR. EINARSON: Could the Min ister gi ve us a little further explanation on what areas are not being renewed this year? MR. BOYCE: Yes, they' ll find it for me. MR. EIN ARSON: In other words, Mr. Chairman, there is a reductio n.

I understand the Fi rst Mini ster, prior to the opening of the Session, that there is going to be a reduction to the extent of somewher e in the neighbour hood of $30 million. Is thi s one of the areas invo lved here? I just throw that comment out, Mr. Chairman, to find out the reason why. I don't mean it as a criticism , just a point of informa tion. MR. BOYCE: I heard the member's remarks and I will respond to them in just a moment.

I passed out those books which show you where the staff is located and I have another breakdown of the total staff man years and where they appear if it would be of some assistance to the member . The net effect, under that particu lar appropria tion , for exam ple, during the current fiscal year, 1976-77, we had eight staff man years and ten people on contract. The realign ments that were necessary because of the restraint prog ram and other reasons, next year, the contracts are cut to four. From ten to four, with an addi tion of one staff rnan year. In other words, this year we had 8 staff man years and 10 1237

Friday ,March 25, 1977 contracts, next year there will be 9 staff man years and 4 contracts - from a total of 18 to 13 . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 64(b)(2 ). The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, just before we move on from Admini stration , I wonder if the Mini ster or his staff can give us any idea if, in fact, they are making some progress, or if, in fact, the cond itions are not going to impr ove and they're going to get worse.

This is one that concerns me, I' m getting rather old and I've been around a long time, but seeing the morals, the ... morality, wh ich you only have to go to your local CBC screen to find out what's ... The whole system and the principl es wh ich I believed in , I was brought up and raised in seems to be falling down on our shou lders.

Certainly the Min ister is one of those, and now he has the portfolio and the power to take a look at it from a dif ferent view than we do have in Opp osition, can he see that we are, in fact, making any progress, or is it worthwh ile for us to appr ove these expe ndi tures, because it may not impr ove, or is it just a holding position that he feels that he can maintai n. MR. BOYCE: This question arose last year. Really, how do you assess what you're doing, or if you're doing anyth ing.

The staff add ressed them selves to this question and tried to develop someth ing whic h would be, you know, rather than air y fairy or some other term, someth ing that you could really take a look at and see whether you were getting a bang for the buck. That's an awful term I suppose. -(lnt erjection)- MR. CHAIRM AN : Order please. MR. BOYCE: The comments of the Mem ber for Lakeside are duly noted.

But nevertheless, to set the objectives, and that means what you hope to accomplish, in layman's language and in terms which you can actually strive towards, ke eping more kids in school, for example, I can best answer your question by a specific program which the next line deals with, and that's through the Probation Di rectorate in work ing with the schools to try and deal with the problem of truancy. We have always, across the country, responded in an emergency situation to take care of those kids that get into di fficulty.

So pretty well throughout Canada, they'r e corning to the point that they have to really focus on trying to keep them out in the fi rst place. It has been suggested to me in Winnip eg, that on any one day there is some 1,300 childr en that are truant. This is not all children that are not in school on a particular day.

Some childr en in school get into di fficulties so through probation services, they have been work ing with the school di visions to try and get co-operation with the schoo l so that kids that get into mischief can actually work out something with the school that they'll actually do some meaningful work rather than just going to the youth centre. The se thin gs you can actually test to see if it is having some effect because it's almost imme diate. But nevertheless in macro terms over the whole scale, I think you have to look at what is happ enin g in the adult system.

You take a person who is fifteen years old today say ten years from now, he's twentyfive, but with the number of people who are being incarcerated as related to those people who are in di fficu lty when they are younger, I think there is about 14,000 in a year. If you go back over the figur es of ten years ago and relate that, it's rather a gross way of looking at it because we really haven't got the techn iques, we find that they can relate. Those people who were in di fficulty 10 years ago are still in di fficulty.

Nevertheless, that is the kind of techn iques that have to be developed if we are going to see how effective our tax dollars are being allocated in this field. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Ro blin. MR . McKENZIE: Mr. Chair man, the reason that I raise the question is that I recall the days of the Roblin Government ... A MEMBER: sunny days they were ... MR. McKENZI E: ... nevertheless, three of the ML As, and we were backbenchers, Joe Jeannotte, the former Member for Rupertsland and Mrs.

Caroline Mo rrison who was the Member for Peina and myself in those days were assigned every Monday morn ing to go over to Vaughan Street to talk to these kids, and even in a layman capacity, a rural ML A, we were able to communicate with them. I recall an instance of a young beautifu l girl being held in there, and all she said was: I just do n'twantto go to scho ol, I want to be a dressmaker. So word went around and we were able to bring her out of that slot and a year later, she was the top designer in one of the leading department stores.

I recall another Indian kid that wanted to be able to fix carbu retors in a garage, he couldn't get through the bureaucracy of this wild eyed system which was even there in those days, to get out and fix a carbu retor. So finally, at our level as layman MLAs -rural , we were able to move that young fellow and take him over to a well known garage and he's still there today, the top carbu retor guy, who could take a carbu retor apart and put it together blindfolded.

Have you got people without the expertise and thi s professional attitude, just ord inary people that can talk to ordi nary kids and get away from all this rigamarole of psychiatrist and find a slot for these young people and just move them in there at 12 or 14 if they want to go there. Why keep them confined to Vaugha n Street, or the other probationar y services now which are non existent being the unfortunate thing.

But a lot of these young people today could be solved just by somebody with common sense-sure there's some problems at home, but rather than put them through the wringer of all the red tape and that just say-lo ok I'll take you 1238

Friday,March 25, 1977 over there tomor row morn ing and get you a job. Is that facility avai lable in the department, do you have those kind of people? MR. BOYCE: We sure do but I didn 't wantto stop you because I agree with you entir ely. When you say that it was a good system before 1969 I have to agree with you-I was involved with the system as a foster parent at that ti me, and while I would like to say nothing good happened till after 1969 ... MR. McKENZIE: So that system is still functio ning. MR.

BOYCE: This is probably more properly di scussed under the next item, but the ad min istration in this is to provide support mechanism for those people that you're talking about. The Di rector of Probations is here with me and he has done a number of good th ings to get that through and perhaps we could di scuss it in detail on the next item. In that regard, I wish more ML As would visit these places to actually talk to the staff and find out what goes on in the places.

I would encourage the MLAs to make arrangements to go and talk to the staff because it's so easy to sit back and criticize but when you go out there and find out actually what they are doing on a day to day basis, it's much easier. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honour able Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Cha ir man, I just go back briefly Hon ourable Member for a moment to a subject raised by the at for Sturgeon Creek who was that committee thi s morning.

I possibly may not be in order in the sense that I'm anticipa ting something that we haven't yet dealt with in the House but the Min ister is aware that among the major pie ces of legislation that we will be dealing with is Family Law, having to do essentially with the problems of marriage breakdo wn.

I'm sure the Min ister, hi s department and his staff must be monitoring that situation pretty carefully because it could, in a very major way change the responsibil ities and some of the enforcement problems although the Min ister correctly point ed out the enforcement isn't with in his department, it's the Attorney-General's department, but in a major way change the rules of the ba ll game as they are currently being practiced in family courts.

Otherwise if we are led to believe correctly that legislation will be forthcoming as a result of committee work, deal with some fundamental changes that spell out right s of parties in marriage breakdown and I suppose wi ll change or gi ve the weig ht of law, you know will spell out many of the things that are now left to judges' decisions and court decisions in terms of di sposition of property, etc., etc.

My simple question to the Min ister is, recognizing that we have had a Law Reform Committee, we've had a legi slative commi ttee working with this, has this particular department, under your mi nistry, your staff people that are the most expertise in working day in and day out in family court, family law' and in domestic affairs , would of our people that are in trouble from time to time it be a fair question to ask Mr. Min ister, to what extentyour department is geari ng up for that possible change.

The second and in fact, probably preced ing that question, is your department intimately involved in putting together the kind of proposals that we will be dealing with? Mr. Chairman, I recognize I' m anticipa ting legislation that I have yet to see, but it's been well forecast to us by the Speech from Th rone. If the legislation were before us now, then it would be more appropria te in di scussing thi s item on the Min ister's Estimates at this time, but the Min ister's Estimates are up-we haven't seen the legislation yet and really I'm just fish ing a little bit. MR.

BOYCE: The Member for Lakeside is a good fisher man. Thi s is the appropria te place to ask the question because it is being looked at specifica lly by Mr . Grant Webster, the contract money for his salary is in the contract money which is under thi s appropria tion . He is review ing the whole situation and some of the problems which might accrue as a result of those antici pated changes. MR.

ENNS: What I'm really looking for from thi s department, quite aside from what we do in the House as Legislators, quite aside the fine and final recommendation that we get from Law Reform Commissions and then as we have, in fact, spent considerab le time debating and going through the recommendations of the Law Reform Commis sion at the Legislative committee set up to deal with the matter, all the fine th ings we put on paper and all the fine laws that we pass, as proved by our present very inadequate system of maintenance supp ort, of carrying out and enforcing fair and just court deci sions with respect to those instances where marriage breakdowns occur or where desertions occur, where we have peo ple not accepting their sha re of responsibili ty in terms of ch ild support or wife support depe nding on ci rcumstances.

I'm worried , Mr . Chairman, that we will pass very fine and high soundin g legislation and we'll find that essentially, in too many instances, that we've left out that element of practicality of those people that are charged with the responsibi lity of carrying out day in, day out in the fam ily courts of our province, and going beyond that step to the Attorney-General's department to the enforcement area of seein g that the fairn ess and the justice of our laws that we pass are in fact applied. I think, Mr .

Mi nister, you would be thef irstone to admitthat the fairness and the justice of the laws that are hande d down every day in Family Courts of this land aren't being applied, simply because we haven't put together the mechan ics, we haven't put together the co-operat ion of other jurisdictions, and quite frankly, we just haven't put the necessary teeth in the law to apply it. And the easy recourse, of course, is to have the pressure laid on, well, society in general, the general revenue will pi ck up the tab and that really is a cop-out in terms of that 1239

Friday,March 25, 1977 ind ividual' s responsi bility to the extent that he can accept those responsibil ities and is prepared to contribute to those responsi bili ties. The easiest thing, of course, is and we find ou rselves always doing that, we acknowledge the problem, deserted wives aren't receiving their mai ntenance as prescribed under law, childr en aren't being looked after as prescribed under law. It becomes a problem when we look at the plight and the situation of these deserted wives or husbands.

We are moved by huma nitarian reasons for expressing in some form, concern about neglected childr en under these circu mstances, so the next move, of course, is that the general treasury accept the tab, so to speak. And, of course, if that is the only choice, then that has to be done that way, it has to be done that way. But I say this perhaps because there is a general feeling that with a passage of new and enlight ened and updated Family Law, marriage law, that we are in fact going to overcome some dif ficulties in this area. It's my opinion, Mr.

Min ister, that we are ove rcoming nothing by the passage of the kind of marriage law that we have been led to antici pate dur ing the session . Than k you, Mr . Chair man. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honour able Min ister. MR. BOYCE: Now, Mr .

Chairman, of course the Member for Lakeside and I don't wantto be out of order in talking about antici pated changes to family law, but nevertheless I know he has a certain amount of empathy having been here in this particular chai r where you try and anticipate, and in this particular appropriation is the contract money necessary to take care of some of the problems which may accrue as a result of anticip ated changes in the fami ly law.

And the albeitther e's phi losophy, as I mentioned earlier, some contemp lated changes in tarn i ly law, is in the provision of these services that the most imp ortant unit in the community is the family and it is to try to strengthen this family responsibi lity concept that anyth ing whic h is planning to contemp late it will be such to make it easier for parents, no matter where they are, to accept the respo nsibil ities of the children. MR. ENNS: Just in conclusion then .

I notice, for in stance, in the Estimates rather more substantial increases than normal in the items such as Other Expenditur es from - - pardon me, justthe reverse is true, just the reverse is true. But in terms of Salary from $1 36,800 to $1 94,200, is the Min ister indi cating to me that when he says that some antici pation of the addi tiona l work, does this involves some addi tional staff, a particu lar contract employee that is prepar ed to work in this area. MR. BOYCE: Just briefly, Mr. Chai rman, I gave thi s information for last year. We had eigh t staff man years and ten contracts.

This year it's nine staff man years and four contracts. MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRM AN : The Honour able Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Yes, I'm ... that the

Section 7(b ) (2) in which the Min ister of Corrections is responsible for saving marria ges in the province, so to speak, and he's got here that he's got the probation directorate and the Dir ector of Marriage Counselling is his respons ibil ity and I had some criticisms of the objectives when I stated that many of the marriage counsellors were really agents for Legal Aid and I was wonder ing, I di d ask the percentage of cases that had been saved from di vorce because if you were to say that there was 6,000 people, and you di vide that by the 10 workers, that's approximately a 600 person workload per marriage counsellor.

Can they really do justice to saving one of those most important institutions by hand ling a caseload of 600 people or are some of these just on the phone? What would you antici pate the workload of one of these marriage counsellors would be? Are they overworked as these figur es mi ght ind icate, or what? MR. BOYCE: Well, out of the number of cases handled last year, and when you talk about caseloads relative to a conciliation officer, they are responsible for seeing that the case is properly dealt with.

It could conceivably be dealt with a member of the Childr en's Aid Socie ty as far as the specifics are concerned . Last year there were 944 cases dealt with under the Child Welfare Act, there were 2,260 wives and ch ildren Mai ntenance Act cases, there were 11 2 reciprocal enforcement maintenance orders and there were 26 cases under the Marriage Act itself and, in addi tion to these, there were 2,018 cases dealt with in which no legal action was necessary and there were 154 that necessitated reporting cases to the courts. MR. WILSON: Could you mention what those 26 cases under the Marriage Act would be. MR.

BOYCE: That will take time to dig that information up. I'll get it for the memb er. MR. WILSON: I wondered if the Min ister, I thought that I had been criticizi ng the Min ister of Health when I drew to the Min ister's attention the number of these mail order min isters that were out marrying people and they simply send $3.00 down to the States and it allows them to marry ... I thought we had some person in government who looked at these particular min isters to see that they were qualified to marry people and I wondered if the Mi nister mi ght have any comments now. Is this under hi s responsibi lity now?

The Marriage Act? MR. BOYCE: Mai ntenance orders as they relate to the Marriage Act are under my jurisdiction but the question raised by the member, I could only offer a personal opin ion , I don't think it would serve the committee any ... MR. WIL SON: It's not you rs, then? 1240

Friday,March 25, 1977 MR. BOYCE: No. MR .

WILSO N: I know sometimes when examining a Mi nister's Estimates, with out knowing it you come up with a brainstorm and when he started talking to me about the Maintenance Order s being unab le to track down these husbands and collect because of the low priority given by the court and he started talking about a bill collection method and I said to him, well, to save the taxpayers money if we had the same power the government has to go out and collect their business taxes, to go out and collect the taxes where they have the right of seizu re, then certain ly some of these affluent husbands that are maybe living on Vancouver Island or beauti ful British Columbia, that we might have to chase down, if we had the right of inter-provincial seiz ure we would be able to save the taxpayers a lot of money because most of these fellows that take off, it's usually in a premed itated fashion and they leave with most of the assets.

I just th row that out for the record that maybe the Min ister could give it some conside ration because the government always seems to put themselves at the top of the priority list whenever it comes to collection and I think if they can collect their business tax under some certain Act, certai nly they could enforce Maintenance Order s under another Act if they are unable to do it now through the law enforcement the way it is. MR. CHAIRM AN : Resolution 64(b) (2) . The Honourable Mi nister. MR.

BOYCE: Just before we proceed , the member has twice used the expressi on, "the low priority given by the courts." I never said that, Mr. Chair man, that the courts give Maintenance Order s low priorities. What I did say is that we are taking a look at it and one of the questions that has been asked is if it shou ld be viewed as a bi ll collection rather than an enforcement or legal process.

But the courts do, in Canada, have reci procal agreements with the provinces that all the powers of the Crown and the Courts are available, such as seizure, or garni sh ment, or whatever, as a result of the issuance of the court order. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Responding to that, it seems that a motor vehicle has reciprocal arrangements, in other words you can plaster a chattel mortgage on it and have interchangeable things throug hout the province.

Surely when you're dealing with the human needs of a woman that has been left alone, that you shou ld be able to chase this husband between provinces and have some enforcement method and it would seem to me that it certainly would save the taxpayers a lot of money if we could increase the percentage of recovery in tracking these fellows down, not so much tracking them down but ... MR. CHAIRMAN : Or der please. It has been pointed out to members of the commi ttee that the matter of enforcement comes under another department, it's not within the purview of this Mi nister.

Would honour able members restrain their remarks to items within this department. The Honou rable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Well, as I say, under this

section the probation di rectorate has to deal with objectives and I'm sure that one of those objectives is naturally to find these parti cular people under the Maintenance Order

section and to encourage the other Minister responsible to give the enforcement of these Maintenance Order s some priority. So with that, I finish with that particular section. MR. CHAIRM AN : The Honourable Member for Ro blin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairm an, to further the point that the member, the committee raised on the possibi lity of collecting these Maintenance Or der s, I think he asked a fair question. Is this min ister, who is before us today, recommending to the Attorney-Gener al's department, that those kind of teeth put in the laws of the Attorney-General's department to assure that ... MR.

CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Minister of Agri culture on a point of order. HONOUR ABLE SAMUEL USKI W (Lac du Bonne t): It was pointed out that this item is entirely out of order and I suggest that we stick within the ambi t of the Estimates before us. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honour able Mini ster. MR. BOYCE: Well perhaps, to the poi nt of order, Mr. Cha irman, I had ind icated earlier that there were contract money in this particular appr op riation which is under discussion and which we are reviewing the parti cular situati on.

Tha t's what I had said and so maybe that is one of the reasons why I opened the door and without being out of order if I could comment briefly, that we're entirely out of order because what we're discussing is under the next appropr iation entirely, it's not under this one, but nevertheless, we were moving along well and I did n't want to raise that point. The questions raised by the Member for Wolseley, of course, are well taken. You can execute against any asset which you can find and this is done. The member I know has had experience in locating assets and seizing them and I also have had that experience.

So the processes are being looked at. A good ly number of the cases tho ugh aren't under recip rocal agreements because I understand in the Uni ted States there are only two states, which are New York and California, which a number of people go to but nevertheless ther e are a good ly number of others who leave for jurisdictions in which we have not got reciprocal agreements, and we're trying to modify this in co operation with the Attorney-General's department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Roblin. 1241

Friday ,March 25, 1977 MR. McKENZIE: Well, I thank the Min ister of Agricu lture for his views and the Min ister on the subject matter, it's one that's been kicked around here for part of the morning and it comes under the item that we're dealing and if the Min ister of Agricu lture wants me to read out the item: Involvement and Mai ntenance Security, see Income Security, Social Allowances, and so on, on Page 21 at the bottom which is 7(b) (2) , the item of the Minis ter's Salaries we're dealing with at the present time.

He doesn't maybe have this that we're dealing with, this docu ment her e which spells out Mai ntenance Order s and all that I was asking the Min ister or his staff or somebo dy to confirm if, in fact, they're using all the facilities that they have and the powers that they have, to impr ess upon the Attorney General's department the fact that these Mai ntenance Orders are a real prob lem and the Member for Wolseley has suggested other ways and means that maybe some of these Mai ntenance Orders can be, in fact, collected and enforced and that's wider powers to either this Minis ter or the Attorney General and I was just asking the Honour able Min ister who was before the comm ittee if, in fact, he has impr essed upon the Attorney-Gener al or tried to impr ess the need for that type of maybe looking at the legislation or better enforcement and that was my only concern in the subject matter, Mr.

Chair man. MR. CHAIRM AN : Resolution 64(b) (2) . The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Well I still don' t get any answer. Unfortunately the Mi nister hasn't answered me if he in fact has carried out all those respo nsibil ities of hi s office. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. MR. BOYCE: It was rather dif ficu lt for me to answer because all I could do is say yes and I agree with what the member has said, you know. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR.

WILSON: I wonder if the Min ister could exp lain, for myself, "contact with police in domestic cases." What would a sample case be that your workers would be involved with the police? MR. BOYCE: Well, could we hold your question just for a moment. Could we pass this particular appropriation and then go down to the next line and that's under it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 64(b) (2)-pass; (b)-pass. Resolution 64(

c) Probation and Parole Services,

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Min ister. MR. BOYCE: Well, in response to your question, if somebo dy comes in contact with a probation officer, the

section in the Correction Act em powers or sets forth terms of reference, however a person wants to look at it, that they can deal with the families . As has been in trying to resolve some of the problems pointed out in the press recently, an awful lot of the police involvement in the City of Winnip eg is not for law enforcement, it's with social or domestic di fficulties and it is in this regard that a good ly number of staff in all of the correctional system, including adults and juveniles and probation services are involved with the families, to try and resolve some of these difficulties. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Under this

section , I believe we are on (

c) whi ch is $4 million; salaries $2.3 million. I notice that you deal with delinquency prevention and the Min ister was kind enough to give us this chart which ind icates that, if I read it right, that juveniles charged per 10,000 popu lation Winnip eg is leading the hit parade and I wondered if the Min ister mi ght comment on these alarm ing stats that he's presented. I just can't believe that Winn ipeg is the hotbed of juvenile crime in Canada, but these figur es seem to ind icate as such and I'm rather shocked to see that we are really leading everything.

Of course, mind you these are 1975 figur es that the Mini ster has presented us with, but I wondered if he would care to comment on that. What does he see the future of Winnip eg and Manitoba with us having the highe st juvenile crime in Canada, accord ing to this chart. Is this correct? MR. BOYCE: I'm glad the member asked that question because there are certain dangers in just straight interpr etation. You are probably aware that there is a di fference in the ages of juveniles from jurisdiction to jurisdiction . We are up to 18 .

In other jurisdictions they are up to 16, which skews that parti cular chart, and that's presented to us thr ough the offices of Stats Canada. There are a number of problems we are faced with in Winnip eg, one of them was the amalgamation of the Police Force, for examp le. What effect does that have on the statistics? If you can just cast your mi nd's eye on the situation for a moment, we took several police forces and amalgamated them.

Ch ief Stewart in hi s wisdom, and I agree with him, to familia rize as many of the suburban policemen with the total Winnip eg scene rotated hi s constabulary force through the community, and I believe at the time these figures reflect, they were on a six weeks rotation cycle. Subseque;1t to that the Winn ipeg Police had started an affirmative action program and the people who serve in the core area actually do so at their own request, which puts more or less of a permanency into the constabulary wh ich is deployed there.

A new policeman, who is unfamiliar with the di strict, had no other alternative when he apprehended the child because of his own unfamiliarit y that they ended up at the Youth Centre. Once they end up at the Youth Centre, they reflect as a statistic. One of the things that they're doing - in fact I think we just sig ned a lease, or got authoriz ation from Management Commi ttee to sign a lease, for a faci lity, 303 Kennedy, wh ich will allow for a 24 hou r a day deployment of people. You know, probation officers are peace officers, so it will allow for 1242

Friday ,March 25, 1977 24 hou r deployment in that area and they will be better able to assess where that child sho uld go, whether it's back home or to one of the other facilities whi ch is in the community, or or if necessary, to the Youth Centre. So those figur es have to be interpreted, (1) in relationship to the rest ou Canada that we have a juvenile age of under 18 ,

whereas in many jurisdictions they have 16, and (2) because of that unique situation with the amalgamation of the Winn ipeg Police Force, plus a general increase in the number of young people who are getting into di fficulty. MR. CHAIRM AN : The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Mr.

Chai rman, he mentions the increasing number of young people getting into di fficulty, but here' Winnipeg has almost 8,000 in the chart and the next highe st is Toronto with5 ,500, Montreal 5,800, which you could see because of the melting pot and the di sparities in incomes in those cities could lead to some particular problems, but here we have Winn ip eg, who is fairly isolated , either the Police are doin g a tremendous job of arresting everyone that breaks the law, and maybe, as the Min ister has po inted out, by rotating the policemen, they seem to be either doin g their job , because what we have is the alarming case of Winnip eg ...

I remember read ing many articles why people came to live her e was because of its low crime rate and good police and fir e protection, the lack of blue movies and the amount of churches and a good place to bring up a family. Again, I don't want to attribute it to your government, but in the last eight years, there seems to be a tremendous increase in juvenile crime. My comment is one of alarm.

I don't want to di smiss these figures because I'll be asking further questions under the Min ister's Salary after I have a chance to ask some professional people the ir comments as to why we are leadin g Canada in juvenile crime. You mentioned the age limit, 18, that may have some beari ng, but even that, when you have appr oximately a 3,000 offence di fference between some of the major cities in Canada, you can't di smiss it; I have to compare Winnip eg.

I remember many of the Min isters, when they are talking about hydro increases or whatever, they always refer to Ontario, they refer to B.C., and if I do the same thing here, Vancouver's only got 1,700 offenders and Ed monton 1 ,900 and Winn ipeg has 7,963, so it's alarming. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: The Min ister, in his answer to the Member for Wolseley, mentioned that we have an age dif ference in juveniles, the juvenile age here, between 16 and 18 .

Could he tell us, is it just Manitoba that uses the age 18 , and if we are, what is the percentage of juvenile offenders that fit that category of over 16, the 17 and 18 year olds? He was using that as a partial answer to the Stats Canada figur es that are given in hi s report. Could he comment on that? MR. BOYCE: Fi rst of all, I don' t know if they have the information here, wh ich jurisdictions have 18 and wh ich have 16.

I could take it as notice and find out for the member, but in the figur es that I presented to you - I don 't wantto belittle the problem because there is a problem - but in the annual report for 1975, which is the same year as those figur es reflect, on Page 62, it gives you a breakdown of the age groups. In 1975, of 3,056, there were 320 under 12 ; 13 years of age, 269; 14 years of age, 429; 15 years, 634; 16 years, 681 ; 17 years, 696, and 18 years, 27. Under 18 , they go by their bi rthday. MR. STEEN: Has the Min ister any comment as to whether we should perhaps lower our juveni le age here in Manitoba? MR.

BOYCE: Ouch! MR. STEEN: I'm sur e that the Min ister, Mr. Chair man, has given much thoug ht to the question . Wou Id a 17 year old be better off bei ng treated by Adult Court rather than the Juvenile Court in the Min ister's opinion, or are we likely turther ahead in the long run by keeping our juvenile age at 18? MR. BOYCE: At this time I can only expr ess a personal opin ion, but it appears that thi s personal opin ion will prevai l in the present legislation which is proposed by the Federal Govern ment. It will be uniform , 18 years of age.

In commenting on your question, would we be better served by reducing it, I suggest, perhaps not, because there is a process that is used at the present time, even with people under 18 , if it decided that a person shou ld be dealt with in the adult system, then a petition is made to the court to raise that indi vidual tc adult court, and there is, built into that process, a protection of the indiv idual in that they have tc, prove to the court in the fir st instance that it should be raised, it should be consider ed as an adult offense. MR. STEEN: Another question, Mr . Chair man, through you to the Min ister.

The Min ister made a comment that through the amalgamation of the Winn ip eg Police Departments, some dozen departments, that the Chief was rotating the men so that they would get a broader experience. The former City of Winnip eg had, what I considered, an excellent juvenile department. By going through the amalgamation, in the Mi nister's opinion, did that Juvenile department keep up with the remai ning departments within the police service?

Has it been given the same deg ree of emp hasis and strength , so that it can conti nue its good work that it did in the former City of Winn ipeg throughout the total new area of the City of Winnip eg? I'm aski ng the Min ister for an opin ion . He's a policy maker and it's not a statistical question. It's someth ing that he's likely followed up on very closely. 1243

Friday,March 25, 1977 MR. BOYCE: Fir st, Fi rst of all, Mr. Chair man, I would concur that Winnip eg has, over the years, had one of the fi nest police forces in the world, bar none. A MEMBER: Did you forget about the little police force in Roblin? MR. BOYCE: The RCMP, I really have not that much relationsh ip dir ectly with them.

But in the juvenile component, and I'd rather not mention any names in case I miss a few who really contribute, we're all dealing with human systems, and ther e was a period of a hi atus there while they accommo dated other individual s, but here in the past year, that has been strengthened, and once again I think that they will maintain the reputation of being one of the best in the world. MR. STEEN: Again, another question to the Min ister.

Is the juvenile problem within the City of Winnip eg primarily still primarily a core area problem , or is it spread out through the various suburban areas because of the affluence that we live under in this day and age? MR. BOYCE: Well, different communities have di fferent problems. Every community has dif ferent problems and the problems in the core area are perhaps somewhat dif ferent than the areas in some of the more established communities . The transient nature of people within the core area causes a certain kind of problem.

The inciden t, I'm sorry, I would have to take the question as notice and see if the police : .ave it broken down by communityrelative offense and the rest of it. But there are special problems in the core area of any city because of the transient nature of many people who are in that area. MR. McKENZIE: Mr . Chair man, in dealing with this item, which is 2. 398 million, I have some questions for the Min ister.

Fi rst of all, I reiterate his sentiments regard ing the policing that we enjoy in this great province, not only in the city but across the rural areas of our province and the force has increased considerably in my short time. I came to Manitoba after the war and I recall those days in the town of Russell, there was one small policeman who only worked part-time, one small policeman in Rob lin working part-time, none basically in Grandview. You look at the force in those three communities today and we're looking at about a 50-man police force.

You go in say 20years and see where the police force is, it's there, and I think it's the duty of not only hi m as a Minis ter in government and us in Opp osition and the commi ttee to make sure that law and order and justice does prevail in thi s province. But on the other hand , you see society changing around, where in those days you never locked your door. You could go away and leave your stuff around in your yard and it would be there, even if you never came back for a month. You can't do that today.

So we're involved in a whole evolution of society where the princip les and everything has changed , so I do take my hat oft to the force who have seen fit to go out and make these kind of charges against society. It's unfortunate the only figur e we have here is the juveni les that are charged per 1,000. I'm wondering that at the bottom of this document that we have before us, it's got "Man itoba All". On the other hand, it tells total offences by city. Now, this "All"' does that include rural Manitoba and the urban commun ities or is it just Winn ip eg figur es that we're looking at here? MR.

BOYCE: The ones that are specific ally for Winn ip eg are for Winnip eg. MR. McKENZIE: Down here it says "Man itoba All" at the bottom. MR. BOYCE: All offences are all of Manitoba. MR. McKENZIE: We are just looking at the Greater Winnip eg area. May I ask the Min ister now, and thi s is one that hi storica lly comes up, is it maybe not time that we list the names of these juvenile offender s and get it on the record who they are, whe re they came from, and what they've done.

Because there's no better deterrent in the rural areas - I can't speak for the city - but I tell you, there's not many people that like to see thei r name listed in the local paper for commi tting some violation or some offence for the law. And the rural papers are now, for the last four or five years, listing those people who have vio lated, regardless of what the law is, but they've made a violation of the law, and I think it should be public information, that not only the adu lts are breaking the law, but the juveniles are breaking the law as well. And these young peo ple, it should be known who they are.

I'll tell you the young community today are throwing the law right back in our face and laughing about this fact that it's all done in a sort of a vacuum, or beh ind a closed door , and they're getting off scot free, and in a lot of areas are habitually comm itting the crime over again, because they know either the ir parents will bail them out or the probation service will bail them out, and they're never going to be shown as who actually these faceless people are .

In my constituency, as an MLA, if I don't know who the juvenile offender is, how can I possibly go and use my resources to help him, which I did before when they were over in Vaugha n Street, I used to go over and sit down with those kids and try it but when I see it going on and we know the crimes are being comm itted ... my God , these kids burn ho les in the pavement, those figur e 8's out in front of my home night after night after night, and I never find out who they are. I know the police come and pick them up because I phone the RCMP and tell them these violations of the law are going on.

So they are removed from the scene, but I never find out who they are. Would it not be maybe tim e now to take a look on a trial basis for maybe one year, or wou Id your staff not let you do that where we have gone so far for the young people today in letting them off the hook? Maybe it would be time for one 12 1244

Friday,March 25, 1977 month perio d to try and see if that vehicle wouldn't be more helpful and help the po lice force today, who are, as you see by the list here, they'r e certainly picking these peop le up and char ging them but we don't know who they are. Would that be a fair trial perio d or would the department care to take a look at it on a 12 month basis. Let's try and list some of these areas, or list them all, and see what would happen. MR. BO YCE: I hope you don't call the Member for Rob lin and I to order, Mr .

Chairman, because you di d look concerned. at I'll make the case the next meeting of Min isters when they're talking about this particular poi nt, that consideration perhaps should be gi ven to it. But nevertheless, at the moment we are acting under a Federal Statute which says we can't. It goes to the heart of the problem that, you know, these youngsters don't grow on trees and it has always been a mystery to me how a youngster can take home a bicycle that doesn't belong to him and some parents for some reason or other don't question wher e he got the bicycle.

Nevertheless, the phi losophy of the Dir ectorate is to do just exactly what the member says, to try to deal with these youngsters in relationship to the people who have been offended in some way. They are working towards that; it is a very di cey, delicate area. The phi losophy of the Di rectorate is that youngsters shou ld be encouraged to accept the responsibil ity to the mselves and to other people in the community and of course th is is the crux of the whole thing. How do these people learn to behave themselves, that they respect other people's right s and proper ty. MR. McKENZIE: Mr .

Chairman, committee members, if we go thro ugh the list of probation services that we are approving here today, and what a list for this $2.398 million! It starts out that probation services are dir ected towards fi rst all those juveniles in Manitoba who are apprehended for delinquent acts as defined by the law. Numb er two, adult offenders referred by the courts for pre sentence, social inqui ries or for supervi sion .

Numb er thr ee, residents of federal or provincial correct ional institutions and so on and we're looking at detention screening, we're looking at delinquency referral screening, we're looking at court advocacy and communication role, court liaison, pre-disposition of assessments, classification of persistent and serious offenders, probation services, attendance programs, probation placement programs, community treatment, volunteer participation, pre-parole enquiries, parole supervision, after-care juvenile, after-care adult, delinquency prevention , and the list goes on and on and on.

My, has soci ety got to that kind of a stage today that we're that sick and we need all those services to look after our citizens, Mr . Min ister? It scares me. It scares me to see that list of things that we in this committee, with the Mi nister and the government today, have taken upon as part of our responsibili ties. I don' t see how, in my wildest ima gination, nor does the Minis ter, I' m sure, how you can accept all those responsibil ities and expect to do a job.

If it's that bad today that we need all that type of services under this one item, Manitoba has got a very dim future and I'm sure the Min ister must be as concerned as I am. I just can't believe it, that we're involved in all those fields at this level. Where does the mother or the father come in, or the parents, or the rights of the commun ity to take part and help clean up some of these problems? Because government can't possibly do it; it can't do it. Government was never meant to be involved in those fields.

We're meant to look after the people who can't look after themselves, law and order, but to get into all those services, it scares me. Maybe this is what socialism is all about - the socialist dream , the long-range planners whe re they want to "Get people arou nd their th roat and wrestle them ," as Trudeau says, "to the ground, and we'll solve all your prob lems." If you're going to be in all those fields of a person's pr ivate life, I become very alarmed about passing this item that is before us today. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 64(c}(1 ). The Honourable Mini ster. MR.

BOYCE: To the Member for Roblin, I perhaps wouldn't couch my statement in the terms that he does, especially when he makes reference, is thi s what socialism is all about. Ther e is nothing further from the aims of socialism as I understand it. In fact, I would dr aw the member's attention to a letter to the editor that was written by one of the most succinct - it is rather long but yet it is succinct - by a Velta Ultsmith in Rorketon, Manitoba, "Total Upbringing Not School's Role." Well' I think that total upbring ing is not the role of any agency of the Crown, including the probation services.

I would concur with what the member has said, in that we have to in some way encourage parents to accept their responsibil ities in this particular area, that when their childr en are out and about, that they respect other people's persons and property. I think that that should be one of the goals in our society and I join with the member in expres sing concern because that doesn't seem to be the case. But nevertheless, if you look at the appropriation, and I have to commend Dr.

Dragan for what he has done to handle this fantastically-in creased workload that is being demanded of us, by putting in place a voluntary probation officer system because I agree tha t we can't continually hir e professional people in every bailiwick in Manitoba. It may well be that the Member of Rob lin can proffer hi s services to become one of these, because who they are looking for are people in the community who, 1245

Friday,March 25, 1977 well, if I can use an overworked term, have got common sense, but know the community, know the ch ildren, know what can be done. He has done an excellent job in locating 150 people thr oughout Manitoba who carry part of that load. I fully concur that we just can't keep adding more and more people to provide more and more services ... A MEMBER: It will go up and up and up. MR. BOYCE: This is one of the Di rectorate's priorities, to try to get it back down to the community and the family, to help them di scharge their responsib i lities. MR. McKENZI E: Mr.

Chair man' the Min ister just exactly gave me the subject that I was wanting to raise in my next question and I just ask him, where does the family come in in that long list of pages of activities of the Probation Fi eld Service. Maybe there are no family ties left wher: the juvenile arrives on the scene, but I was wondering where the church was, I don't see the church involved here in any place and they certainly have a heck of a big input in the rural communities.

Now, I'm not that familiar with the city, but there's certainly a lot of work going on in the church groups in our area with young peop le that have problems and I don't see you involving that facet of our community. As a responsibil ity of the local peop le, it likely will hi nge back as long as you fail to list the names of these faceless people who are continually violating the law at that level, it will just go on and on and on.

You will build an empir e like you are building here right now and instead of getting it back where it shou ld be at the local level and getting these local communi ties, because when you get into the crunch of a child in a rural community, say, at Camper ville, the best people in the world are the local peop le to get involved thereand try and help that guy unravel him self if it can be done.

But unless hi s name is known, you can find out who he is, the whole thing is shif ted out of there and he's in Dauphin before he gets time to turn around and then he's in the system and the government has taken it over without the local people even knowing who it is. That's my concern under this subject matter, Mr . Chair man. MR. BOYCE: As I said earlier, we have to come back to the point that we're dealing with a Federal Statute and we have to comply with that anonymity bit of it.

As the member poi nted out, 20 years ago when he was in a parti cular location, I was living in Elm Creek when I was younger and there was one RCM P constable for the whole Rural Municipal ity of Dufferin and at that time everybody in the community knew everybody who was in mischief and there was kind of a community effort, pressure or co-ope ration or whatever you wanted, to try to deal with some of these problems. It's a very complex problem, I agree, ar:d we deal with the results. We have no control over clientele. Our people don't go out and tout for customers.

You know, you can predic t or get your crystal ball out and antici pate that there is a relationship between the number of youngsters who are in di fficulty in marriage break up; the hi gher the di vorce rate, the more youngsters there are in di fficulty. But I would point out that in this parti cular appropriation we are not asking for additional staff man years; the increase that is being asked for reflects the negotiated agreement with the people in the system. MR. McKENZIE: One last question.

Of these total offenders that we have before us on this, could I get a breakdown of the male offenders and the female offenders of the 9,802 that's listed under what, '75? Is '76 not avai lable? MR. BOYCE: Not as yet, the year doesn't close unti l the end of the month. Perhaps I could pass the member the report for the last year, it gives all the tables in the annual report of the department and it's broken down as to sex, age, offence. MR. McKENZI E: Is it 50-50 or close by, I'm just looking for a broad figur e? MR. BOYCE: It's about six or seven males for every female. MR. McKENZI E: That's all I have, Mr .

Chair man. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Fi rst of all, I guess I should deal with the Estimate item and ask how many staff people are involved in the $2.3 million under Salaries? How many people would be involved there? MR. BOYCE: It's 164, the same as last year. MR. WILSON: The same as last year, okay.

Now, under the activities of the Probation Field Service, it talks about classification of persistent or serious offenders and after you classify them under Probation Supervisi on, after these are classified, 'Nhat would the qualifications be for somebody to run one of these probation ho mes or parole homes or, for lack of a better word, halfway houses, what would the qualifications be for them to be able to n.m one of those? Would they have to be an autonomous association or what would their qualifications be?

Would they have to have some social work backg round or probation officer, what would their background be? MR. BOYCE: To take the memb er's several questions from the top, as far as classification is concerned , it's an attempt to look at the particular case and the indivi dual involved and then to ident ify the resources which are avai lable. A probation officer, in his particular talents, related to the workload that he or she has at the present tim e - the thrust is partly an answer to your question and some of the questions of the Member for Roblin. What we are trying to evolve towards is the 1246

Friday,March 25, 1977 estab lishment of community commi ttees which will actually be involved and we have voluntary probation officers and other volunteers, including the clergy and housewives, taxi drivers, carpenters, anybody else in the community who can be of assistance. We're establishing community restitution committees and then we have programs relative to juveniles involved with alcohol. Now, to your last question, the Minister of Health, in discussing his Estimates, was mentioning that he is going to establish an Office of Resident Care.

There is a little bit of dif fic ulty in identif ying the culprit, whether it is the Minister of Health or myself in some areas, because some of the people who are in homes are in ther e because of the Child Welfare Act and they are placed there by either the treatment panel or the Di rector of Child Welfare. Those for which I have responsibility are those that are placed in homes as a result of the actions of the Probation Department. The qualificatio ns of the people who establish these places is at the moment not under stringent ad mini strative control.

In other words, ther e are no established guidelines in the oper ation of these particular facilities. The judgement of the probation officer is taken into conside ration and judgement only is gained by experience in the area. So the probation officer may place a parti cular child or one or two childr en in with peop le who are providing these services under the aegis of some private agency, or some community groups such as chur ch groups or community treatment associatio ns or something like that. If their experienc e is such that they want to continue that child placed there, they wi ll leave them there.

If it is not, then they remove them. So that, as I say, it's a matter of judgement at this time. Hope fully within the next year or so we will have in place a criteria which people who ope rate these places will have to be. MR. WILSON: Well, I welcome the news from the Min ister that we are going to have some form of qualifications or some form of caring on behalf of somebody in government because certainly the probation officer who has a fantastic workload is pressed to be able to find somewhere to put this juvenile offender.

As you know, in your last year's Estimates and since that time in which you accused me of building a cement wall arou nd Wolseley, it became obvious that no one seemed to care about the condition of these places or who was running them. It became evident that this was a void that was missing. So the result is that it fell upon myself and several of the local caring people and some might refer to them as busybodies or whatever, but we got together and we were able to find a parti cular study and iden tify some of the premises.

The result was it became my responsibili ty and I don't think it shou ld have been, to go arou nd and find these abuses like the Mini ster of Health has said we must point out, welfare abuses. It became our parti cular duty to point out what we considered abuses under the halfway house system. I'd like to talk about, for instance, the one that the Min ister did respond to. Upon searching out 79 Maryland, we found it was run by a fellow who called himself Reverend Hawkins and Reverend Hawkins, it turned out, was one of these mail-order mini sters that I talked about.

He was getting $1 2.0 0 a day for these boys -( Interjectio n)- His claim to fame was of course that he had some practical experience but other than that -(I nterjectio n)- Yes, I know the Reverend is here, - (Interjection)- well, no, this reverend is a qualified one. A MEMBER: A little catechism ther e. MR. WIL SON: The concern was that it appeared like they were in this for, at the calculation of six or seven boys times 12, obviou sly, in the condi tion of the house, it was a reasonably attractive financial arrangement. So the Minister may or may not want to comment.

I understand that that parti cular premise was closed down, but again , why is it incum bent upon the politician to have to go around and do this. The other one was, we predicted some problems were going to arise out of 234 Sherburn, and the Minister says, "I only fund the place." Well, at what point in time, we've had lots of promises from the people that they'r e going to move out of there, but in the meantime, they haven't moved , and we still have continuing problems.

The family next door couldn't sell their home, so finally they split up and are now divorced over some of the problems because she accused her husband of being a coward , in not putting these juvenile char acters in some kind of a behavioral pattern. When we spoke to the people running it, they said , "We have our good days and our bad days," and the point I'm trying to make is, the particular house had, I believe, five professio nal workers for six convicts, juvenile convicts. They had a housekeeper and a janitor. In other words, a cook and a janitor.

They didn't shovel the side walk' they just had a nice life where they went out and worked during the day and they came back at nig ht and had their own way. But they were juveniles, and every problem, up until the time Mr.

Hender son was convicted of non-capital murder, were all related to drinking , whether it was beating up some 16 year old girl on the street, whether it was breaking 32 panes of glass, whether it was a riot, the only thing that has happened to the neighbou rhood is there's been cases of divorce, the locksmiths have done a fantastic business in the area because everybody's got their house bolted up, and we still have this parti cular home. Everybody admi ts that the home is too small, it's not suitable, but this is a joke.

You advertise in the paper for these particular ... you keep building them in the downtown core. 1247

Friday,Mar ch 25, 1977 Amusingly enough, some of these great cha mpio ns ofsocialism like Joe Zuken and some of the NOP councillors, they won't have them in thei r area. I think that because in this particular home, these boys are from native prob lems, we've got to start looking at a rural setting. I th ink it's time the Min ister pressed upon the councillors in the city of Winnip eg that thi s is a situation where we can't have them all concentrated in one area.

I know social workers and probation officer s have a time problem, and it might be easier to have them all in one area so you don't have to dr ive from St. Jame s to Charleswood and what have you. But I think the time is fast approa ching that it's proven, concentration of these experiments in one area is bad for an area. It di srupts the area, and I think in fairness, we're all paying the same taxes. We need a break. And this is what I mean by this

section where they talk about planning, they talk about co ordinating, and I think a little more empha sis should be given in that area. I wondered at what point in time, if they recognize most of the problems are related to alcoholic problems, would the Mi nister care to comment on the possibi lity of maybe raising the drinking age to 19 if alcohol is involved in this particular chart where we have Winnipeg leading the hit parade with 7,963. Would the Min ister tell me if these figur es are from 1975, what are the number of offences in 1976? MR.

BOYCE: To take the member's questions, once again from the top, why he has to be involved in representing his community, all of us are members of the Legislature and all of us have to respond to comp laints or requests from our constituents. With the fir st particular facility that the member mentioned, I appr eci ated him drawing it to my attention, because when he did, we im med iately took action to remove those people for which I had admin istrative responsibility. I get many requests and comments from all members of the Legislature relative to the problems in their areas.

The regrettable part of it is, and I don't want to be flip in the answer because I understand the problems of which the member speaks, when you try someth ing new, there are bound to be problems. On the specific instances that the member raised, we responded as quickly as they were dr awn to our attention, speak ing of those people for which I have ad mi nistrative responsibil ity. Because of some of the problems which did arise, it has demonstrated that we have to be more stringent in the licensing of some of these places. When I say, more stringent in licensing, I err, we have to license these places.

We have to be more stringent and license these places.

Ther e's sort of a conundrum in that albeit some of the peo ple try to scare some of the citizens that the government's going to take over everything and they're going to operate everything, we're trying to relate our services to community-based organizations and community-based organ izations are any group in the community which will accept the respons ibil ity and can demon strate that they are willing to accept that responsibil ity, whether it is a community treatment association or a chur ch ora service club, or anyone else that has demonstrated in the past, that they can be respo nsible.

The government is anxious to relate to and with these organ izations. Nevertheless, when some outside organization approaches the government and in the matter of priorities the government decides that they can't fund a particular group, all hell breaks loose in the press that we're trying to emasculate some of these organizations because a number of them seem to think that the solution to the ir problems is just more money. Tha t's not the case.

So the questions raised by the member are real problems and I would repeat, I app reciate hi m drawing the specific problems as he did inter-sessionally on a couple of occasions and we were able to act on it. But as member s of the Legislature, I th ink each one of us has a responsi bility to advise the ad mini stration in this regard. MR. WILSON: Well, then, what I wanted to consider is part of the problem that - I call it the revolving door - part of it is that the courts aren't open long enough.

I wondered if the Min ister might respond to something they've looked at in Ontario with juvenile courts because of the large number of the m, the opening of the court system for about 16 hour s a day, sort of rotating the magistrates. Getting back to my comment about why I advocated a rural setting. It is because, it's very tough to say this, but when you turn around and go down to these particular premises, in the case of 234 Sher bur n, you found out that all the boys had a history of a violent past.

All the boys were originally native in ori gin and they were being supervised, one to one, by urban-oriented workers. You bring these to the attention, and somehow or other, it had to take some serious thing to happen before someth ing goes. In a letter that I received from Mr . Moir of the City Health Department, his comment was to me, "Last Saturday night, one of the boys who lives there had to:> much to drink, came home and went berserk.

He smashed 30 panes of glass, two doors, and dama ged the TV set." Then the next offence was a guy at 3 o'clock in the mor ning, beating up some 15 year old gir l who was screaming because she had had too much to dr ink . And thir d, but not least, a 17 year old boy named Hend erson went out, had too much to drink and stabbed a fellow and ended up getting sentenced to 3 years for non-capital murder, as I point ed out.

I think that it's all right to say, "Well, it'll never ha ppen again." We called a meeting with the neighbour hood and the fellows were very understanding and they simply said, "We can't be all places at all times," so my suggestion for those kind of places is, they should be in the country. These people 1248

Friday ,March 25, 1977 were brought up in the country, they love the country, they love to get out in the fresh air. I think too many of them are being concentrated in ghetto-ized urban core areas. -(Int erjectio n)- That might be a good idea. The Member for Emerson might want to su ggest that later on. The last question I have and I will then turn it over to one of the other members, is, could the Min ister give me the number of people that may have committed suicide in 1976 atthe Youth Centre, because last year I asked him the question and I th ink he said three for 1975.

I wonder if he could teli me how many thi s year. MR. BOYCE: The staff will get that information. I don't know if they have the figur es right here today. If they haven't I'll give it to the member later. The answer to one of his former questions was, the numbers involved in 1976-77 those figu res will not be avai lable until the end of the month but the projection is about 14,000. MR. WILSON: 14,000. MR. BOYCE: 14 ,000.

It would be very easy to say, "Well I wish I could guarantee allthe citizens of Manitoba, to whom I have a responsibi lity, that the incident to which he relates will not occur agai n." I can't guarantee that. Anybody that's in any kind of a home, even with their own parents, if somebody molests somebody or causes problems in the community, all I can assure you is I'll try as best possible, to emp loy the staff wh ich will be able to deal with these peop le, that it doesn't occur. We operate ten group homes in the city of Winn ipeg and six in the rural communities. MR. WILSON: How many? MR.

BOYCE: Ten in the city of Winnip eg and six in rural Man itoba. We are, in conjunction with the other side of the department, looking at the establishme nt of another rural community because of the recent di fficu lty with the place in Saskatchewan bei ng closed down. These childr en are being repatriated to Manitoba. MR. WILSON: I defer to the Member for Lakes ide. MR. ENNS: Thank you Mr. Chair man. Mr.

Chairman, I think the questions and positions raised by the Honour able Member for Wolseley bear some further examina tion , particu larly in light of the reports, somewhat di sturbing to us, I'm sure about the situations that developed just recently in the case of some of our juvenile offender s' whom we have, I understand on some kind of a pi lot program, not a very extended program, have been sent to a di fferent setting, a camp-like setting in the Province of Saskatchewan where they run a home or camp faci lities for some of the more di fficult juvenile offenders, and unfortunately things do not seem to have gone quite right there.

Now I notice the staff member shakin g his head . The Min ister will correct me undou bted ly, if this doesn't come under the appropriation that we're talking about now. MR. BOYCE: All of the chi ldren who were in Saskatchewan were under Child Welfare. They were placed there by the Di rector of Child Welfare, or the Chi ldren's Aid Society, which can place also. MR. ENNS: All right then, perm it me a further question just for my information.

The inf erence that was at least left in the news media accounts was that these were, in fact, juveni les that had a history or background of difficu lty with the law and were juvenile offender s. Is that not true? MR. BOYCE: I'd have to take that question as notice and look at each specific case and advise the number. It may well have been that they were, at one time involved with the juvenile component, but nevertheless, when they were placed, at that time they were not involved with the probation services. I'm advised that we have no people on probation outside of the Province of Manitoba. MR. ENN S: Okay, Mr.

Chair man.

But then, on a more positive note, and surely that's part of our responsibili ty too, as an Opposition group, has the department, and has this Min ister, seriously consider ed , in the past year, or is he considering in the present year- I don't see any appr opriations of moneys for that kind of consider ations that I'm goi ng to suggest and I might suggest to him that I may well suppor t an expansion of his budget if I thought the Min ister was going to move in that dir ection - has he consider ed seriously, a change of venue if you like for the kind of problems that we're talking about, the kind of persons that the Memb er for Wolseley has repeated ly exp ressed concern about.

It seems very apparent that whatever we're doing isn't really working that well. I'm saying that as gently as I can. It's a very di fficult area that we have to work with . I think it's appar ent to any one of us as parents ourselves that putting half a dozen or more peop le, juveni les, into this kind of a setting, in a boar din g house or rooming house kind of a setting, really isn't going to, in the long run, impr ove the situation .

I must tell the Min ister that there are, in fact, while others may not be prepared to welcome it, but I have a particu lar instance in my constituency, where I have been app roached by indi viduals representing organizations of which I am prepared to apprise the Min ister of with the idea and hope of setting up a permanent kind of camp and facilities that would be prepared to take on wayward youngsters in what I think the Member forWolseley would agree, in perhaps a more suitable background and more suitable surro undings, namely that of a rural setting.

I believe the amount of supervision requi red would tend to be less, I think the amount of activities avai lable to the persons occupying that kind of a setting would at least be such that there was someth ing else to do other than get drunk every other night, easy access to liquor would be reduced. Certai nly the opportun ity of participating in some kind of camp life, camp work would be both educational and enjoyable to many 1249

Friday,March 25, 1977 of the people who simply find themselves with noth ing to do and idle hands in the situations thatthey now find themselves in, the situations that the department now placed places them in at no small cost to the general public.

Would the Min ister, and I'll ask the Chai rman this dir ectly, would the Minis ter entertain a proposa l, a program coming say from a group of chur ches in my community, indi vidua ls, people who are prepared to accept the responsibili ty along, of course I recognize, with what would have to be the support and guidance of trained staff, to set up such kind of a camp within the proximi ty of say, 40 or 50 miles of Winnip eg, certai nly not in the wi lderness area. As I suggested, Mr.

Chair man, I think that I could even convince my (eactionary Tory caucus to support the Min ister in some increase in his Estimates if I thought that that was being done. The pointtha t I'm making, Mr . Chair man, is that we just seem to be putting the necessary dollars in year after year to maintain, to kind of put these people out of sight for a little while, these youngsters away into homes for awhile and although the list of parole and probation programs is formidable that you offer, the statistics prove that we are not gaining, we're losing.

And I would think that there's room for some pretty innovative appr oaches to this and I th ink the member's suggestion , the Member from Wolseley's suggestion of (

a) recog nizing that in many instances the backgrounds of the juvenile offender s that we're talking about have a rural orig in, that simply the possibi lities, you know, one can do so much more in a rural setting than one can on a 50 foot lot on Sherbr ook Street or on Maryland Street or wherever, and that the possibili ty surely of a hi gher ratio of success is there. I'd like the Mi nister to consider that. MR. CHAIRM AN : The Honoura ble Min ister. MR.

BOYCE: Well, I'll not only consider it, I'll encourage it because this is exactly the thing that we're trying to do is to encourage people in the community to get involved. In fact, if any member knows anybody in a community that, farmer or anyone else that can act as foster parents, we would be only too glad to entertain. I would caution members to, you know, maybe shou ldn't say it, please forg ive me for saying it, but slave labour ... you know, and I say thi s from personal experience.

I got one young fellow a job on a farm and he never had a day off for three months but then I got another fellow a job on a farm and -(Interjec tion)- well, the Member for Min nedosa is right, he never got into trouble. But nevertheless there was another fellow with a dair y farm, he gave the chap a suite in the basement. Nevertheless if there's people in the community farmers, business men, anyone else, because I'm expressing an opin ion which perhaps isn't right but nevertheless the family is the most im portant and the best if we can keep the youngsiers with their families.

The next is an extended family or foster care faci lity. The next is some kind of a community residence wh ich reflects the community and the last is the institutional type of care wh ich we have no other alternative but to place these people in a formal institution. We would encourage that kind of involvement. In fact, there are some organ izations in the community, I' m sure the member is familiar with Op en Cir cle and they are quite active in this area. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chair man, I haven't been present at the commi ttee all the time and if my question is repetitious, then I withd raw it. But perhap s it's as good a place to talk about what is going on at .. . For instance, earlier on I asked for the po pulation fig ures of the various correctional institutions and the rehabil itation camps. What is going on at Bannock Point, Egg Lake and Spruce Woods Rehab ilitation camps. Are these for ad ult camps or is any one of them specifically set aside for juvenile offenders? MR. BOYCE: No. These are all for ad ults. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chair man, the information that I gather from the Minis ter is that we do not have a juvenile facility outside of the urban setting as such, then, one that is specifically dedi cated to looking after juvenile offender s and people. Is that correct Mr . Chai rman? MR. BOYCE: The six rural homes that we have are staffed by people from the community, I'm advised. But one of the problems with young people is they have to be related to the educational system, it's not so much work oriented. Perhaps we should take this into consideration with some of the older youthful offenders.

But righ t at the moment it's related to the educational system. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Before the honour able member continues, I would draw hi s attention to the fact that the next item is labelled Care and Treatment of Juvenile Offenders. I wonder if hi s remarks or questions wouldn't be better asked under that section. The Honour able Member for Wolseley. MR. WIL SON: I wanted to talk because it is called Program Supervision and I would like to use this opportun ity to correct the Mem ber from Ste.

Rose who said that juvenile offenders were the product of a capitalistic system because I know the Mini ster ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Or der please. The Honour able Member for Ste. Rose state his point of privi lege. MR. A. R. ADAM: On a point of privi lege, I don' t think that the record will show that I made that statement. MR. CHAIRM AN : The Honour able Member for Wolseley. 1250

Friday,March 25, 1977 MR. WIL SON: All right, I'll withd raw the remark, but I did want to say that this parti cular Mini ster has never th rown the problems of juvenile offences into a po litical atmosphere. I did want to suggest one thing. In my visit to Hecia Island I saw a staff house there that appeared to be empty.

I also saw the fact ther e was no caddies, there was no caddy carts and I also saw a lot of maintenance work that may have to be done up nine million dollar there and I think since one of the min isters built a monumentto hi mself that we might be able to combine a losing cause by at least having it do some good by maybe taking over that staff house for a particular program . I just throw that out as a suggestion because it occurred to me when I was out there that there are no caddies, there are no mai ntenance people and it would seem to me an excellent rural setting for some of these offender s.

Would the Minis ter have that answer to my question regard ing the suicide at the home? MR. BOYCE: The answer to his last question fir st this time. No I haven't got the answer to it yet, but I'll get it for the member. As I said earlier, about this continuing comm ittee of deputy min isters and the min isters getting together once in a whi le, really, I would agree with one of the statements the member's made, you can't tell who's who without a program .

Because really ther e's no big P politics in corrections, even the committee wh ich was established by parliament and dou btless you've seen some of the comments in the press, the bif urcation, the two-year rule, causes us a problem so all of the provinces, regardless of what adm in istration is char ged with the responsibil ity at the present time, are trying to come to grip s with some of these problems. I have to be cand id with the comm ittee and tell them of all of the areas for which I have admi nistrative responsibil ity, this is the pla ce I have done the least.

Now, in saying this, it may be rationalization but nevertheless, that's the case. There are two th ings wh ich affect this; (1) is the Soc ial Services Allowances Act, which is under review between the Federal Government and the provi nces and it doesn't seem to make much sense to rush ahead willy-nilly to try and bring faci lities and programs into place if we can get 60 cent dollars from the Federal Government. As I mentioned earlier to the Member for Lakeside, you try and anticip ate some of this stuff. So it appeared as if we were going to have a Soc ial Services Allowances Act last October.

We still haven't got that. Another thing which happened , which caused us some prob lems, was the fact that the fi rst priority of the Federal Government was at one time, "young people in conflict with the law, then capital punish ment, then peace and good order, the gun control legislation.

Well, this was reversed for some reason or other and they are just now introducing the "young people in conflict with the law" and the relationship between the two thing s, the Canada Assistance Plan and the other programs relative to cost sharing is under the Social Servic es Allowances Act which is being negotiated between the Federal Government and the provi nces.

And the thrust that the Attorney-General and the provinces are suggesting that we put into thi s crime prevention type of thing , trying to keep youngsters out of the institution because, you know, the more we keep out when they are younger the more we'll keep out when they are older, hope fully. MR. CHAIRM AN : The Honourable Memb er for Rock Lake. MR. EIN ARSON: Mr.

Chair man, I would like to ask the Minis ter, since he became the Mini ster of thi s portfolio has he and memb ers of his caucus paid any visits to say, Vaugha n Street Detention Home and other places where we have our juveniles in sort of seclusion because of their ... that they've gone through. MR. BOYCE: Well, Vaugha n Street is closed and we use it as a detention facility relative to adult court. In other words, if somebody is going to appear before the court, they are transferred in from Head ingley and held there for their court appearance.

So the juveni les are all out of there, they are at the Youth Centre. I don't know if the Mem ber for Rock Lake was here earlier, but I encourage all members to visit these institutions and talk to the staff. MR. EINARSON: No, Mr . Chair man, I'm speaking of the respo nsibili ties. I'm in Oppo sition, but the Mini ster, he referred to my colleagues when we were posing questions about the responsibili ty we all have.

I'm asking the Min ister if he's taken it upon hims elf with any members in hi s own caucus to go and visit some of the places on Kenaston or other places wher e we have these young people, that is juveniles, serving their time for various thin gs that they have do ne. I would like to know whether he has ever under taken th is? MR. BOYCE: My response to the member is, yes, I have. And I th ink it's im portant - I wasn't admon ish ing the opposition at all, my own colleagues included. It's so easy to, throu gh in advertence, I th ink some of these things creep in.

I can best answer you by giving an example of the Mini ster of Fi nance and the Attorney-General and the Di rector of Remand Servic es and one of the local constables and I wa ndered in and out and up and down Main Street on one of the busier nights accompanied by a couple of Winn ipeg's constables because it's better if you go and see the places or the things that are happen ing and perhap s it is just to di scuss it. I do encourage my own colleagues and take some of them and have taken some to the facilities. Well, we have a good operation throughout the system, but the operation of I'm sorry that's on ad ults.

I' d better wait until we get to adults. But the answer to your question is yes. 1251

Friday,March 25, 1977 MR. CHAIRMAN : Order please. The time of Pri vate Me mbers' Hour having arrived, Com mittee rise and repo rt. Commit tee rise. 1252

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Friday, March 25, 1977 ESTIMATES - HEAL TH AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed this afternoon, I would like to dir ect the attention of the honour able members to the loge on my right where we have Les Benjamin, Memb er for Regina of the Federal Ho use of Commons. On behalf of all honour able members, I wish you welcome this afternoon . I would refer honou rable memb ers to Page 34 of their Estimates Boo k, Resolution No. 65, Manitoba Health Services Commission.

The Resolution is in one total but if it's the will of the commi ttee, we'll proceed with them line by line. The fir st line is Admin istration in the amount of $8,448,0 00.00. The Honour able Member for Rh ineland. MR. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Fir st of all I would like to say that we are rather in an awkward position.

The Min ister has not tabled the annual report of the Manitoba Health Services Commission and we really have absolutely nothing to go by, so I was just wondering , would the Min ister be able to gi ve us some report on the activities of the Manitoba Health Services Comm ission at this stage so that we know some of the things that they have been involved with during the past year. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr . Chair man, this has never been a problem before. If we follow line by line, I'll answer the questions ... well-defined.

I can start giving you the details on Admin istration; then the Personal Care Home Beds which we are prog ressing with the fiv e-year prog ram; the Hospital Program is strictly the insurance program; the Medical, the same thing; the Pharmacare - 1 can't see where we're going to be stuck because the report has not been tabled. MR. BROWN: I would like to ask the Min ister under which item we'll be ableto di scusscommunity clinics or commu nity health centres as such? -(I nterjection)- Hospitals. Then I'd like to ask the Mi nister who the present membe rs are on the Manitoba Health Services Comm ission.

I wonder if there have been any changes in the last year. As you remember, last year we di dn't have any rural representation on this commi ttee and I wonder if this has been then rectified. MR. DESJAR DINS: Mr . Chairman, that is not correct, there was a rural member last year, but I'll give you the list in a minute. The Chai rman is Mr. Edwards; Dr. Condo, the Vice- Chairman; then the re's Dr. Henteleff, Mr. Hank Prom islow, Mr. Rankin, that's a rural member, Mrs. Shapir o, Reverend J. J. Strachan, Mr. Teffaine, and Dr. Hi ldes has repl aced Dr. Tulchinsky. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Line 1- pass; Line 2 Personal Care Home Program $59,251,000.00. The Honou rable Memb er for Fort Garry. MR. SHER MAN: Mr . Chairman, this is an area in wh ich ther e is considerable concern over the government's polici es and dir ections, particularly in the field of hostels and personal care homes.

I note the appropriation we are looking at is substantially higher than the one voted in this area last year and I'm concerned that, notwithstanding that kind of budgetary comm itment, ther e seems to be a serious shor tage of hostel faci lities; a serious shor tage of facilities and beds and living quarters for people who have reached a point in life where they actually occupy a forgotten sector of society. They are not totally independent but they have some di fficu lty in mai ntaining themselves in a full ambu latory way.

They are not people who can get elderly person's housing, actually they in many cases need something more than elderly person's housing, Mr . Chairman. They are left in too many situations in a room to wither and withdr aw into themselves because there is a certain degr ee of dependency which still surrounds them but for fi nancial reasons, they are not in a position to qualify under the elderly person's housing programs wh ich are avai lable. In the past there has always been an opportun ity for people in this category, in this capacity to be served by the hostel operation in this province.

It appears that that operation, largely conducted by volunteers and priv ate agencies, is in a state of confusion and di sarray because of the appr oach that the govern ment appears to be taking to hostels as such. Ther e is a strong fear on the part of many ho stel ope rators that it is the intention of thi s govern ment to phase out hostels altogether. The people operating hostels tell me that they are greatly di sturbed by the fact that this government has change d the standards of hostels and hasn't told the Winnip eg Personal Care Home Council what the standards now are.

I know that in the past, one of the standards was that personal care per day amounted to 20 minutes in a hostel. Well, that cond ition, that qualifying factor has been elimina ted but no one apparently has told the Council and the care home hostel operators whether it's now 40 minutes a day or an hour a day or what kind of time is to be devoted to personal care and still fall within the classification of a hostel.

The greatest di fficulty, I think, confronting the op position and confronting society generally in thi s area is the one that arises out of the shor tage of facilities and shor tage of space for persons in chronically ill and semi-a mbulatory capacities who find themselves winding up in acute care centres, occupying acute care beds in hospitals. That has created a crisis at both ends of the spectrum. When we began exam ination of the Minis ter's Estimates a few days ago, Mr. Chairman , I made 1253

Friday ,Ma rch 25, 1977 reference to some arguments that were advanced in the latest copy of the newsletter, Centre-Scope, the newsletter of the Health Sciences Centre, which amounted to a stinging ind ictment, really, of the bed situation in the province, and I put a few comments from that editorial ind ictment on the record at that time with the intention of reverting to it at this stage of the Estimates. I want to go back to that and just confront memb ers of the committee with it and confront the Min ister with it for consider ation and response at thi s time. That

article in question, which is in the March , 1977 issue of Centre-Scope, makes the po int very empha tically that the crisi s in acute care beds in the province and particularly at the Health Sciences Centre - this letter is concerned most specific ally of course with the situation at the Health Sciences Centre - that the crisis in acute care beds has reached record levels this year. The Di rector of Nursing of Adults, Margaret Nugent, is quoted as sayi ng, "What we used to consider a crisis has become the usual." The Head of Admissions and Discharge Commit tee, Dr . John Wade says this, Mr .

Chai rman, and I want to put this on the record, "The single largest factor is the number of chronic care patients processed for nursing ho mes and other facilities that are occupying acute care beds. In November, this fig ure was 120 and has si nce risen to 135. It is aggravated by the fact that with nursing homes full, the opportun ity for transfer is blocked for most of these patients." Well, there is considerably more in the

article itself, Mr. Chairman, and I don't intend to emp hasize the contents of the

article at length beyond add ing, Sir , that all exper ts and all opin ions sought in putting the ed itorial thrust of this

article together, come to the conclusion very empha ticallly, that the major problem in emergency bed situations, in emergency facilities and institutions of the health sciences type, is long stay patients who are occupyi ng beds that should be available for acute and emergency care but are there because there is not other place for them to go and because it is to a certain extent in many instances, convenie nt for them and their relatives to be there. Doctor Wade concludes by saying, and this again is a dir ect quote, Mr.

Chai rman, "the community needs more chr onic care facilities"-the over all problem is a community problem, all hospitals are feeling the pinch for beds and the health sciences centre is one of the major referral hospitals and feels the pinch the most. Sir , I believe that that problem is related very dir ectly to the subject we are reviewing in the Estimates at the moment, personal care home program, and I believe that the comments that I suggested in the fir st few min utes of my remarks to the Min ister relate very dir ectly to the problem just outlined in the

article I've read from is a gap in the service avai lable to elderly, "Centre Scope." There persons, senior citizens, who are at a stage in their lives where they are no longer totally independent, ther e are not sufficient facilities to absorb that community in our society, and as a consequence, other facilities such as acute bed institutions are feeling a very severe pinch as pointed out by the authorities connected with the health scie nces centre I've just quoted.

The other major area of concern I think for the Winnip eg Personnal Care Home Council and all those in the community who oper ate personnal care homes and hostels is that their own boards feel that they have been left out of the decision makin g process where their services and their operations are concerned by the department itself.

They feel very strongly, I am told, those with whom I've held di scussions and they represent the council itself, tell me that what most of these hostel boards and personnal hom e boards want more than anything else is the right to partici pate in the decision making process and they empha size the word, partici pate. -(I nterjection)- Well they say that the atmosphere is one, and I put this to the Min ister, thi s comes from personal conversations of mine with the cou ncil itself, that the atmosphere is one of suspicion on the part of the Government and the department where the ope rators of the homes and hostels are concerned.

They do not feel they are even al lowed to make such basic decisions as to whe re they should get their laundry done, wha t kind of laundering and other facilities, other equi pment they may be able to have in their institutions, that those dec isions are all made as a consequence of either di rect intervention or dir ect pressure from the department itself, and they simply don't feel that they are being left and maintaine d in a position where they do have some author ity to make decisions themselves.

This is one of their strongest concerns, that, and the one I mentioned earlier about their fear, their anxiety over the question of whether or not it's the intention of the Government to phase hostels out altogether. So I would like to put those issues and challenges to the Minis ter at this juncture, Mr. Chairman, and look forward to his response in that area before exam inin g the subject a little further. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Min ister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJA RDIN S: Mr .

Chairman, fi rst of all, my honou rable friend would want the comm ittee to think that this is a crisis that has never happened before, that is not correct. This is a crisis that happens every year, and I have all kinds of newspaper clippings from ten years ago, from fifteen years ago and from five years ago, and it's the same thing, there will always be a demand for beds and although we have to have more beds, I think that's a healthy situation .

I think that the day that the people will say that there is enough beds here, that will be the day that there will be a bed earmar ked for every single Manitoban and that's not possib le, and tha t's not the way to run a system because it would be comp letely pr ohi bi tive. Just a couple of years ago, and in fact, while I was campaig ning in 1254

Friday ,Ma rch 25, 1977 the by-e lection in St. Bonif ace in 197 4, the big thing was from the oppos ition, there are not enough acute beds, and I was saying that there enough acute beds but oh no- all of a sudden everybody agrees, everybody is in step. I know that the situation is dif ficu lt, I ad mitted that last year and we move, the dir ection that the Government is going is very very clear, we are not building any more acute beds and we have a five year program that wi ll give us more than 700 beds personal care beds.

Tha t's very clear, every sing le member of this comm ittee received the docu ment yesterday, you must still have them, and we are going ahead although it's been a year because of restrai nt we have had to cut in many ways, we di d not cut in this area. You know it's all rig ht to blame the Provinc ial Government for everythi ng, you must remember, that the set up, the hospital ization program led us in the pred icament that we are in today.

It encouraged because it helped in the opera ting costs of hospitals, acute hospitals, we don't do the adm itting- if there is people in these beds that shouldn't be there, we don't do the admitting or di scharging of these patients at all, it's the medical profession that does. It is a normal thing that the people even now, would much sooner be occupying that bed because they don't pay anything at all.

Now the Federal Government for two years, more than two years because I have been Min ister for more than two years and this started with the Min ister of Fi nance and before him the Mi nister of Co operative Development, he was the Minis ter when that fir st started the di scussion and Manitoba has always said well let's prioriz e-why are we forced into something we don't need and someth ing very costly. But the only way that you would have cost sharing would be through the hospital.

Then we were led to believe as recently as about a year ago, that the Government would prio rize, ther e would be some trade off in that the Federal Government would help in the financing of personal care beds and now we are told that this is not the case, they will be block funding, and it will look good for the fi rst year or so and then we will be way behind because we have these services. Now another thing, does my honour able friend realize that we are the only province that has this universal coverage, the coverage under the hospital izati on of the personal care beds, that's where the trouble started.

The then Min ister inh erit ed 7,000 beds, probably the Government moved too fast in those thin gs but the commission then was sadd led with 7, 000 beds that they were opera ting. Now, what else can we do, we have announced very clearly, you know our intention, if you want to criticize it, it's your lot, it's your prerogative, but last year you realized where we were going, we haven't changed anything. · We will have 700 more personal care beds in five years, 1981, number one. Numb er two, we have spent an awful lot more money on home care wh ich has helped enormously.

Numb er three, we have also worked, maybe we are not as advanced as I would like to see it, I'm working with the Min ister responsible for housing in enriched senior citiz en home s where people can stay there longer. We are work ing towards a fitness program, we are doing that. I hope that we will be able to remedy a lot of these problems before too long because we are now negotiating with the Federal Government for Deer Lodge and it mi ght be that we will have quite a few beds to be able to play with and that we'll rectify that.

But thi s is not, I repeat, this is not something that has never happened before, at a certain time of the year, doesn't matter who is the Government, you have the shor tage of beds. You certainly didn' t have the services that you are getting now. I think that this is somewhat exaggerated, there was an

article in the paper by a certain Doctor that talked about the waiting list, and so on, and this is not really the case. We must remember that the waiting list doesn't mean everything, you can have peop le on the waiting list, we don't prevent people from signing up on the waiti ng list, it doesn't necessarily mean that they should be in a personal care bed , it means that they would like to be on or they want to be ready in case they have to be on later on and they th ink it takes quite aw hi le. And there are some that want to transfer, and they might be on a waiti ng list of di fferent personal care beds.

So, what can I say? If you say there's a shor tage of beds, I have to agree. If you say we are doing nothing, I di sagree and you know it, but I don't think you'll make that statement because you know what we are trying to do. We hope that something will happen in Deer Lodge that will gi ve us some breath ing room. We're in line, even though there's a restraint period, we're going to construct these beds.

So if my honour able friend was trying to make the di stinction between a hostel and the other levels of personal care, then he is right, that our fir st priority when we need so many beds and when there's, in the words of my honou rable friend, "there's a crisis," we're not going to start worrying at this stage, our fir st prio rity wi ll not be the hostel-type whe re you need only 20 mi nutes of care. We will look at the people who should be in the institutions.

Also, we are very seriously looking, and I think we are ahead of the other provi nces there, the expe rts will tell you so, although we've got an awful lot to do, we are going to make an effort to keep the people in their homes where they belong.

If we can provide the care when they are sick, if we can provide the care, that they don't feel they'll never be able to get in the hospital and if we get co operation from the med ical profession - and it hasn't been, they will admit it themselves or some of them will ad mit it, it hasn't been their forte to take care of the old people or to even visit the old people 1255

Friday,March 25, 1977 - if that is done, and with the home care teams, I th ink that we will succeed. Another thing, with all this crisis, we are in a better shape than most other provinces. The personal care beds per thousand popu lation for the three provinces that have part of the program, Manitoba, Alberta and Ontario, the current is - we have 7.07 beds per thousand, okay, and the other two provi nces that are, this morn ing somebody said, well, there's a Conservative government.

I di dn't introduce politics into this or partisan politics, but it happens that the two are Alberta and Ontario and two very rich provinces, especially when you compare Manitoba, and their to rate in Alberta is 5.38 beds per thousand, and I'm talking about personal care beds now; in Ontario, it's 6.69. And the Mi nister went out and closed acute beds in that area and that is what they're saying they are going to have.

Our project by 1981 will gi ve us 7.74; it will increase because there will be an increased popu lation over 65; and then in Alberta will be 5.77; and do you know what Ontario is doing, Ontario is going to go down to 6.60. So let's remember that. Let's compare; let's look at what is going on in the world. Well, if we look at the world, then we're tops. Let's look in Canada, wh ich I feel we have the best progr am, way better than the States and at least they'r e receiving care, they're receivin g care there. I don't think that we have to apolog ize at all, but that's not enough.

We admit it; I admitted it last year. I gave you the documents, I told you where we were going and if you wantto criti cize now, fine, be my guest, I'll have to take it because I can't make mir acles and it's a five-year plan and next year you can criti cize a bit because they won't all be in there and you can do it for five years, repeat the accusations but at least we are going in the dir ection to rectify that.

As I say, it hasn't been easy because of the system of cost-sharing and because the system has been to build acute beds where you can get participation from the Federal Government and they are not doing a darn thing in this area. I think I gave you, they wanted to know the care needed: Hostel was 20 to 30 minutes per day; personal care level 2 is 2 hour s, and level 1 and 3 is 3.5 hour s per day per patient. There's another one of those general statements and this one I can never win.

Lately on every issue I've hear d thi s general statement, "They are not happy, they are this, they are that." These people run their facilities but the taxpayers of Manitoba pay for it and it is only natural and I will not, I certainly do not intend to apologize to say that we are going to do everything possible to save money for the people of Manitoba. I don't think it is a principle that the level of care will suffer because we're going to try to centralize laundry. And we're looking at that very seriously. But we are not doing it in isolation; we are working - there has been commi ttees looking at that.

It hasn't been easy. Everybody wants their own, including St. Boniface Hospital , all these groups, we've had this thing at Minne dosa. We don't tell them that they can't have their laundry, but we will say we will only fund this type of laundry. It's not a question that they can't do it if they want to get volunteers, but if the people of Manitoba pay for it, then certainly we will be diligent and we'll be careful to get the best for our dollars. The cost of health is high enough that we're not going to add on because somebody figu res they should have this and they should have that.

Now, they are left, there was some talk, I told staff very clearly that they were not going to interfere, they have tried to co-oper ate on the question of, should I say, placement. Ther e have been some statements by some of the staff that has never been government pol icy and my instruction was to make sure to bring the ir papers to me before they announce anything in the name of the policy of the government.

I for one have stated repeated ly that I respect the ethnic facilities, the religious groups, that I felt it is very imp ortant for older people who are going to fin ish their days, to fin ish in the amb ience that they have been used to and we will do everythin g we can to perm it that, to allow that. There will not be any regimentation of patients or people or numbers on them; we will give all the facilities to these people. We know that we want more, we're not that worried about the other provinces.

We will be ahead of the game; we are ahead of them now but it's not enough and we know by the turn of the century that there will be quite a few mor e peop le over 65. Here I go agai n, that magic number which I don 't like at all, but people that mi ght need these facilities. But it's all part of a prog ram. You can't look at beds in isolation . You've got to look at the fitness, the day care for the elderly well, you've got to look at home care, you've got to look at enri ched senior citizens ho mes where some of the services they can do, they don't need to be in an institution. But I can tell you ...

And the better care, in acute hospit al, in geriatric hospitals, and the recog nition of geriatricians which we haven't got in this country. We are working with the university, the Faculty of Medicine and the College of Physicians and some of the medical people. And as I say, I would hope - I don' t want to make a commitment, there is no commitment at thi s time - but I would hope that we could be successful and it will relieve the pressure if we can make some arrangements soon for Deer Lodge. But we are not going to go into this with our eyes closed.

Some of the provinces have made bad deals and we want to make the best deal possible because it is going to be costly to the people of Manitoba. That annoys me, when they are saying that the Board has nothing to do, they are not being 1256

Friday,March 25, 1977 consulted, because that is so far wrong. This is not the case at all. They run, they di scuss with us, there is no interference, certainly, from the politican s, I do very little dealing with these people. It is left at the Comm ission, the Commi ssion has a mandate to get the best possible care for the citizens of Manitoba and, of course, not to spend any more money than they have to, to get the best for their dollar.

So, if the people are sayi ng, 'We would like to do thi s and we can't di ctate." For instance last year when that restraint was placed on, we wrote a letter to all of them and asked them to cut down one percent like the government did and most of them did, if that is wha t you mean by interference.

We are managing the affairs of Manitobans, we are respons ible for raising the tax, of course, and spending that money, and I hope, and I am very pleased and I congratulate the members, I am very pleased with the Board at the Manitoba Health Services Commission and senior staff who I know personally - Well, I know most of them because I was Chai rman of the Comm ission a few years ago and I am very thankful that I had a chance to spend some time there.

I think it has been a good experience for me and I think that because of the chance that I had, I think that I understand the situatio n, the di fficulties and the problems a little more than the average MLA who wasn't fortunate enough to receive that education . So, in closing, Mr. Chair man, I'll accept the criticism , I'll accept them ahead of time for next year and the year after, until all our beds are in place. I don't intend to advocate a bed for every single Manitoban . I do n't th ink that soci ety can stand that, I don't think that we can suppor t that.

We are presently ahead of the other two provinces right now. Right now, in this crisis, we're ahead of the two provinces that are much richer than us and that are in this contract. And by 1981 we will be that much further ahead . If we can make arrangements for Deer Lodge well then it won't take quite that time. But the only control is, if you can control the beds. Because I guarantee that it we double the acute beds, we would have double the patients in them . There is no doub t in my mind and I am not going to start a battle with the physicians and so on because I would be generalizing something I don't like.

But ther e are some people that are looking at that, elective surgery, more of that, more of that, and I don't know, maybe it is a control on good med icine also that there is not just an open house that anybody can go ahead and perform operations as they wish. Again I want to empha size that I am not generalizing, but ther e are certainly some people that find this is a form of generating revenue and I am not interested in that. I am interested in the care of the people of Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr .

Chair man, in my travels between this Chamb er and Room 254, I may have missed some of the explanations given by the Min ister but some of his very early remarks in his last exp lanation interested me. He said that they'r e not building any more acute care beds. Now, when the Min ister said, "We're not building any more acute care beds," has there been some announcement about the Seven Oaks Acute Care Hospital promotion that we had heard of in the past.

I may have missed something that was said about that before but how does he reconci le that statement with the proposals that we have hear d about in respect to the Seven Oaks Hospit al? MR. DESJA RDINS: The Member is pretty cute and he has a point but what I am saying is that we are not announcing any further construction. Ther e will be replacement of beds but there wi ll not be any additional beds when this is fin ished in the acute

section . The program at Seven Oaks has been appr oved and is approved; there are 100 acute beds there, there will be less acute beds at the Health Scienc es Centre after the ir program is fin ished also but Seven Oaks will have personal care beds or extended treatment beds also, but there will not be a larger number of acute beds in five years from now than we have now. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I'm asking this now for information because I am not aware, I recall a year ago when we were di scussing these Estimates that ther e were some ind ication that the Provincial Government were looking toward the ownership of personal care home s and personal care beds. I wonder if the Mi nister could tell me now: Does the Province own any of these facilities? If so, how many personal care beds do you own in facilities that mi ght have been classified as priv ately owned facilities? MR.

DESJARDINS: I don' t remember ever having made this statement, maybe somebody else di d but it certainly wasn't department or government policy, that we wanted to own personal care beds. What we did say was that we froze the prop rietary nursing ho mes but we are encouraging the non profit organizations to go ahead and be the sponsor for these beds. Now I don't say that under certain cir cumstances we would not own beds, that's not the thing that I want to do now.

We did buy an institution; we owned it for about a month or so, it was transferred to the Grey Nuns that bought it, that was the Brousseau one on Arch ib ald in St. Boniface, but it not a policy that we would want to own the beds. The pol icy has been that we do not license any more beds in proprie tary nursing homes. Maybe that's what my honou rable friend is talking about but we've never talked about purchasi ng beds, not at this time. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chair man, did the department enter into any negotiations relative to the possib le purchase of nursing care ho mes in the Brandon area?

Were there any di scussions with 1257

Friday.March 25, 1977 owners of nursing care homes in that area between the Department and the present owners relative to the possible purchase? MR. DESJARDINS: I don't think so. If this is the case, it certainly wasn't the department; it might have been the Comm ission and if so, I know nothing about it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Pembina. MR. HENDERSON: Mr . Chair man, I would like to ask the Min ister: Where does the Pembina Hospital stand now in connection with its addit ion of a care home? · MR.

DESJAR DINS: ... my honour able friend given the program last year and was that one of the hospitals that was appr oved? I'm sur e that you were interested enough last year to ... was that on the list of the five year program? If not, we meant that there's no new ones at this time, there's no new one being consider ed . I haven't got the comp lete list. Let me see if I can ... Pembina. That is Pembina did you say? MR. HEN DERSON: Yes, the hospital. MR. DESJAR DINS: Personal care are you talking about or ... -(I nterjection)- I beg your pardon? MR. HENDERSON: It may be called Pembina, but it is Manitou. MR.

DESJARmNS: Manitou. No, you must remember that I gave everybody a list last year and you must know that it wasn't on that list and none have been added and we're not contemplating adding any until these are fin ished because that's quite a program for five years, these were the prio rity ... Now that doesn't mean that everyth ing is frozen, we're not looking at anything. We're di scussing with these dif ferent people to see if they want to amalgamate or work together on these clinics as per the legislation that we've made. Those that weren't on the list last year will not be started during the next five years.

I'm talking about actual construction ... or be appr oved. MR. HENDE RSON: Mr. Chai rman, in connection with this hospital and care home, we did have people from the Comm ission out and we were told that if we got the agreement of the municip ality and the hospital di strict and the local counci I, that we proba bly wou Id be able to get a care hom e. We did go ahead and got all the necessary permis sion, then apparently the government switched to more home care where they had people go out to the people's home s and we were set back for some ti me.

Now, I remember in talking it over with people on the Comm ission at that time, they were referring to the number of beds we had in the area and then they said that because of the beds in the area they didn' t think that Manitou could have any now, that we'd just have to settle for home care. But what has happened , there's been a home care put up at Treherne and I hear the rumor now that they're extending the facilities down in Mor den for a care home, for more beds down there and nothing is still for Manitou. So, I wonder, would you care to comment on that? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, this is a respon sibil ity, we do have a Comm ission and my honou rable friend might not know this but when I was on the other side of the House in oppositi on, what we're dis cussing now took five min utes. Everythin g was left in the Commi ssion. Now we're giving more information but this has not changed. The prio rity, the priorizing is done by the Commi ssion , not by me, there is no interference at all from the government, it is the Com mission and they've been dis cussing this, they constantly di scuss this in the areas, they look at needs and so on.

What the government di d say, we're going to gi ve you so much money, we'll appr ove so much for five years, they look at those that have been appr oved and so on and this is it. I can't and I don't intend to start the value of every 57 MLA tell me that the fir st one should be in his constituency. Now I might say that I received some bad news. I understand that in Ottawa, I don't know if it's today,

an Act was passed, the Government of Canada, where there was a cutback on these things' the thing s that we were afraid ... and I' m told that the members of the Conservative Party voted solid with them so that might be your answer. We're being cut on some of these funds. We'll have to pay for that, there is no participation from the Federal Government at all. Ther e was nothing in the books for Morden at this time. I don't know if they're talking about the hospit al. I' m talking about new beds now. I don't know, if somebody can hear me, can gi ve me if there is anything in Morden at all.

I'm not talking about repair s or anything like this. Tha t's a possi bility. I'm talking about new programs now. Probably, in a minute o

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-27b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 27b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f7f06f191448db51c50ca6524b4b5df224b0e15d

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