PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 51 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, APRIL 30,1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEOR.GE W. CLARKE

The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair: (Mr. Noel) 110~. J. R. SMAJ.UlOOD (PRF.HIER) : Mr. Speaker, the Newfound land Government Employees Association have made a public request that the Government postpone the coming into force of the new classification pay scale in the Civil Service and in hospital and other services paid for by the Government.

The N.G.E.A have publicly announced their approval of the classification system, but wish the Government to delay its introduction. · The Government were strongly convinced of the need to have such a system when we engaged an experienced firm to undertake this work. We are more convinced than ever of the soundness of this plan, and its very ~reat value to the civil servants themselves. We are being made aware that not all civil servants fully understand the plan as yet, and this may be the cause of their wish for delay in bringing it into force.

We have considerable sympathy with this point of view of the civil servants, and we ~re prepared to discuss a postponement with the N.G.E.A., who have asked for it. If the introduction of the new classification plan is to be postponed, the Government will be faced by a problem.

We have agreed to find a total amount of $6,000,000 to pay out in salary and wage increases this year, and this is absolutely the largest amount of money we can spend this year on this purpose without imposing heavier tax burdens on the people or cutting back still more on essential public services, such as education, health, welfare, road maintenance, municipal grants and so on. If the classification system is deferred for. say, a year, then some other basis or system of sharing the $6,000,000 among the employees concerned will have to be found.

In the search for a fair and equitable distribution of this amount of $6,000,000 the Government would be glad to have the advice and assistance of the N.G.~.A. and of represent~tives of other bodies, such as the police and hospital workers. We would be glad to sit down with those representatives for this purpose. A committee of Cabinet, together with representatives of the Treasury Board and of the official side of the'Civil Service have been appointed for this purpose and are prepared to meet immediately with representatives of the employees within and without the Civil Service. 3126

HR. SMALLHOOD: I must once a~ain emphasize the fact that we cannot find the additional millions, over and above the $6,000,000, that would be needed to meet in full the requests that we have received from all these employees without increasing the burden of taxes on the people, or cutting back still more on public services. The sum of $6,000,000 that we are finding for salary increases this year will be the largest increase ever to be paid out by the Newfoundland Government in a single year to the groups concerned.

Mr. 'speaker, it is with pride and pleasure that I extend on behalf, not only of this House but of the people of this Province, a most cordial and respectful welcome today to one of the most distinguished visitors ever to appear in this Chamber. I refer to His Excellency the Ambassador of the United States to Canada, the hon. Adolph H. Schmidth.llis Excellency lived most of his life, I believe, in the great state of Pennsylvania where for most of his career-,..before he entered the diplomatic service of his nation r he was a banker connected primarily with the Mellon Bank and Financial Interests.

His last post before becoming Ambassador was that of trustee in the ~ellon Educational and Charitable Trust. He is a distinguished American. Canada is fortunate to have so fine a man serve as Ambassador of his country to this country. I · am happy to welcome today a personal friend of a personal friend of mine be£ause the Ambassador is a personal friend of the great president of the United States, President Nixon, with whom I have had the honour of a personal acquaintance.

His Excellency is accompanied today in this Chamber by a very warm friend of Newfoundland in the person of the consul general, Consul General Straus. I am sure the House joins with me unanimously in extending a very cordial welcome indeed to these two distinguished Americans. I wish also to extend a word of very warm and cordial greetinp, to some forty young Newfoundlanders grade seven, forty of them from grade seven hlue. I do not like that blue part of it, I would rather it were another colour but however - MR. ~tURPllY: It is very siP.nificant coming from a Tory District. 3127

HR. SNALWOOD: I am going to hrcak til(• h('art of thC' I.C'aclcr of the Oppo~f tl.>n, I am ~oing to break his heart by tcllin~ him that tl1is maRnlflc<'nt ~roup of studentR from Mary Queen of Peace, these forty students, that this ma~nific<:>nt group is showing that although the name of their class maybe blue their hearts are in the right place. If the hon. the Leader of the Opposition could only see what the sign, the Joey sign, that is showing so prominently up there, if he could only see that he would never be the same man again. Wrong district how arc you.

They are here with their teacher, one of their teachers, Mrs. Slaney, and we are so happy to welcome them here, young Newfoundlanders, handsome at least the boys are handsome, the girls are very pretty. I think the girls are better looking even than the boys and that is saying a lot, intelligent, good looking and their hearts are in the right place. They must have been very proud last night if they were up that late, they must have been so proud as young Newfound- lander~ and young Canadians, so proud of the glorious victory last night in Quebec for liberalism and unity in Canada. They must have been very happy.

Ah, Mr. Speaker, it is hard to keep down liberalism in a great liberal nation and much harder to keep it down in a great liberal ~rovince. Now I invite the Leader of the Opposition to get up with me here in this Chamber today and join with me, if he never did it before and never does it again, to join with me today in agreement with me that these are handsome and intelligent Newfoundlanders and that .we are proud and happy to have them here with us today. MR. fonJRPHY : Mr. Speaker, I would like first of all to join with the hon. Premier in welcoming His Excellency the Ambassador.

I was very happy last night to share his hospitality with some other people in a lovely evening and unfortunately due to my habits I did not partake perhaps as much of his hospitality as I might have otherwise but I am very happy to see him here today and also this morning in a beautiful ceremony when the beautiful ring was presented to, the rededication rather of the class ring to Canada and I think it is going to be in our Province until May 22 or June 2~ and I would urge anybody who has not seen it to visit the Arts and Culture Centre because it is a beautiful, beautiful thing indeed.

It is beautiful, really beautiful and I think particularly all our school 3128

MR. MURPI!Y: childr~n, perhaps it could be arranged by the Minister of Provincial Affairs to have our school children perhaps visit in groups to see this if they have not seen it already and I do not think too many have had the opportunity, I think it was at Expo I saw it there. We are very happy indeed Mr. Ambassador to welcome you in this peoples House today and accompanied by a friend of yours there who is no stranger to this !louse. I think he is a more regular visitor than some of the members. Mr.

Speaker, I would also like, when I read this I thought it was ~ary Queen of Peace on Torbay Road but after the Premier's talk I thought he must think they must come from some other part of the province if they are displaying a Joey sign, I do not know what it is but I persume that its from Torhay Road, the great Tory district of - Yes, I persume it is the great Tory district of St. John's East. There might be one or two that remembers the Premier every now and then, and also Mrs. Slaney who is in charge.

When the Premier mentioned about it being so difficult to keep liberalism down I did pass a remark, I do not know it it was heard, and I said yes, people with weak stomachs must find it very difficult indeed. But. Mr. Speaker, I would join with the hon. Premier in welcoming our distinguished guest, His Excellency, and also the pupils from Mary Queen of Peace a~d trust that what they see here will do them a little good. To His Excellency I will say, do not have it too long between visits. We would like to see you back again in the summer when you can see our beautiful Province at its best. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, we too would like to weicome His Excellency the Ambassador to the House here and we hope that he has an entertaining and educational few minutes while he is here with us and that he enjoys his visit and his trip to this Province. I would also like to welcome the students from Mary Queen of Peace School and their teacher, ~rs. Slaney. The only thing that we were wondering on this side of the House. ~r. Speaker, since we cannot see these pupils, whether perhap~ the sign read ''Joey ~.rho" as some signs have read that I have seen. That is one of those words that is not plainly distinguishable.

We hope also, Mr. Speaker, 3129

HR. C:ROSIIH:: that the students from St. John's East Extern will enjoy their visit to the Rou~e. Be fore sitting down, Mr. Speaker, I have a question or two I would like to ask in connection with this ministerial statement of the Premier.

One question is this: the Premi er confirmed that the Government is now ready to ne~otiate or to meet representatives of the Newfoundland Constabulary before tomorrow at 2:00P .M. and also ready to me et with representatives of the non- government hospital employe es who of course have no association with the ~CF.A, can we take it that t he Government is r eady to meet with r epresentatives of both those groups to discuss the matters t he Premier mentioned in his statement1 3130

- r- MR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): Mr. Speaker, 1 have nothing to add to the statement I have just made, I think it is abundantly clear. MR. CROSBIE: Well It does not appear abundantly or otherwise to us MR. SMALLWOOD: I can only say Mr. Speaker, in the words of a famous philosopher, that I can explain a thing to a man but only God can give him the brains to understand it when I do explain it MR. CROSBIE: You will obscure it more than anyone else in the House. MR. HICKEY: Well Mr. Speaker, it looks like a warm afternoon. We are off to a good start.

I would like to rise Sir, to add a word of welcome to these forty students from Mary Queen of Peace with their teacher Mr. Glynn. I did not know that I represented that· great Liberal District, Something told me it was a Tory District and that was why I was here. The Premier says no, it it a great Liberal District. I can only remind the bon, the Premier Mr.

Speaker, that if those students are showing a " Joey sign " then thank God they do not have a vote, and I will have to put my faith in their parents. 1 am sure that all the flattering he is doing this afternoon with those very fine students, and they are not going to bring it back to their parents and convince them because their parents have stood by us, this party for twenty-one years and 1 am sure they will continue. 1 would hope Sir, that the students have an enjoyable afternoon. I am sure they have learned something already. I believe this is their first visit and 1 would take this opportunity Mr.

Speaker. while I am on my feet in welcoming those students of asking the Minister of highways if he would kindly look into a very serious traffic problem which exists right by this school on Torbay Road. I think what we would need would be some kind of flashing lights or a better crosswalk than the one that is there. At the recent openin .g of the K - Mart the traffic in thia area increased tremendously and I fear for the safety of the children going to this school, having to cross such a very heavily travelled highway. I would ask him if he would be good enough to look into this matter and do something about it.

Mr • . Speaker, I hope that those students have an enjoyable afternoon and I hope that they return some other day. 3131

• - • - -u- - .... flu HON. W.N.ROWE (}linister of Community and Social Development): Mr. Speaker, before you get around to asking for petitions to be presented I wish to make a statement. The purpose of this statement Mr. Speaker, is to give a more detailed outline of the preliminary or interim DREE program for this year, the year 1970 - 71. It must be understood Sir, that this interim or starter program is not the total five year program. It includes only those projects which will be started in 1970 and completed where possible during this financial year.

Some of the projects cannot be completed this year and therefore will be continued and finished next year. Before this financial is ended as I have mentioned before the total five year pro~ram will be signed and is expected to be the first of three such five year programs. Mr. Speaker, two tables are included in this statement. Table one gives a general

summary of the projects in this year's agreement. Thus there is a to'tal commitment, present commitment for municipal and industrial infra­ structure so called including schools of $26,520,000. of which nearly $17 million will be spent during this financial year. Similarly Sir, there is a total commitment at present of $44,470,000. over almost $44 and one half million for road construction including forest access roads of which $24,280,000. will be spent this year.

These totals together with a fifteen per cent margin or leeway which I mentioned earlier amount to a present total commitment of nearly $82 million of which $47,390.000. can be spent during this present financial year. In addition Sir, table lA of this statement shows associated and related Federal Government commitments which are made possible by the DREE program. These associated programs bring the present total commitment resulting from the DREE program, to $98, 600,000. of which $54, 360,000. well over $54 million will be spent during this current financial year.

Table two on the following pages of this statement give a more detailed breakdown of the projects, and I will go over those briefly Mr. Speaker, for the sake of the record AN HON. HEMBER: Inaudible. 3122

April 30, 1970, Tape 714, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROWE (W.N.): This is capital expenditure coming form the Federal Government. The hon. gentleman should know that Mr. Speaker. Municipal infra-structure programs Mr. Speaker, water and sewage, some in te mal roads, MR. MURPHY: Infra-structure, it is a word we are hearing so much now, and I am sure that not ten per cent of the people of Newfoundland know what it is all about. Break that word down. MR.

ROWE: Well it is a word that is used by planne~s, and especially Federal civil servants to cover things which we refer to perhaps as public services, capital public services, physical buildings, structures, water and sewage, school buildings, some internal roads, industrial infra-structure would be the physical plant for example which might be put into an area. It is the capital expenditures comprehensively referred to as infra-structure for the sake of brevity if not comprehension and simplicity. So in the Mount Pearl, new town industrial park area Mr.

Speaker, the agreement covers internal servicing, including water supply, sewer and access roads, for a total commitment of $1,793,000. of which $282,000. will be spent this year. There is also a trunk sewer and an advance factory which is the industrial infra-structure part of it for a total of $440,000. of which half, $220,00Q. will be spent this year.

For external servicing of that new town complex, there is a water supply, trunk sewer system, a sewage treatment plant, and a· sewer outfall plant, which, together with land acquisition in the new town area, and together with the internal services I mentioned bring the total present commitment to $4,123,000. of which nearly $2 million will be spent in that area during this present financial year, $1,887,000. In Corner Brook Mr.

Speaker, under the industrial park in that area, internal servicing and land acquisition will amount to almost one half million dollars as a total present commitment, and that total will be spent during this present financial year, $492,000. That of course is not all for the Corner Brook area, that is only the industrial park aspect of it. Then coming down to the residential sites program, the housing which, and the servicing for housing which will have to go into some of these municipal projects, we have a total of $406,000, a total commitment of $406,000. 3133 I'

April 30, l'J tO, "!ape 114, l"age 4 -- apb all of which will be spent during this present financial year. That will include trunk sewer improvements in Corner Brook. Water and sewer trunk main extensions and Elizabeth Street upgrading in Corner Brook. Residential land acquisition in Hawkes Bay and Port au Choix, and Happy Valley, and servicing of that land, as well as the acquisition of it for a total of nearly one half million dollars to be spent during this financial year. Municipal water and sewage systems under the DREE program Mr.

Speaker, come to a total of $4, 918,000. nearly $5 million of which practically all will be spent this year, $4,336,000. will be spent this year and it includes a water supply system for Holyrood at a cost of $724,000., a sewage system for Holyrood at a cost of $618,000., a water supply system for St. Lawrence at a cost of $376,000., a water supply system in Arnold's Cove·at a cost of $400,000., a water supply system in Bishop's Falls which will cost $1,826,000. nearly $2 .. million for a water supply system in Bishop's Falls.

Extensions to water and sewage systems in Corner Brook $90,000., a water system in Hawkes Bay at a cost of $364,000., and an outfall sewer in Hawkes Bay at a cost of $34,000., and water supply system in Port au Choix at a coat of $486,000. for a total as I have mentioned of nearly $5 million to be spent on those projects. There is an industrial water supplies program included as well Sir, at a COfot of $2,300,000. in Stephenville of which nearly $2 million will be spent this year, $1,800,000. on that industrial water supply program for the town of Stephenville. HR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): And for the paper mill MR.

ROWE: I beg your pardon? MR. SMALLWOOD: And for the paper mill MR. ROWE: And for the paper mill, that is right Mr. Speaker. Next we come to teaching facilities, schools of all kinds, elementary schools, high schools, and vocational training schools. This is the DREE portion of it, it has nothing to do with the Provincial Government grant which may be made this year as represented in the estimates. The DREE program for teaching facilities this year include, an elementary school in St. John's East for a cost of $1,292,000. of which over $1 million will be spent in this present financial year.

A junior high school in St. John's East at a cost of 3134

April 30, 1970, Tape 714, Page 5 -- apb nearly $2 million, of which $985,000, nearly Sl million will be spent durin~ this year. A high school to be constructed in St. John's West at a cost of $2,640,000. of which $1,420,000. just about half will be spent this year. ru1d there is a vocational school extension in Seal Cove at a cost of, or as far as the DREE portion is concerned, at a cost of $578,000. of which $376,000. will be spent this year. There is provision for an elementary school in Creston at a cost of nearly $1 million of which nearly $800,000. will be spent this year.

There is an elementary school to be built starting this year in Grand Bank at a cost of $880,000., of which almost half will be spent this year, $340,000., for a school in Grand Bank (elementary). There is a high school to be built in ~arystown starting this year at a cost of $1,100,000. and it is hoped that that project will be completed this year. There is a provision for the total amount to be expended during this year. The hon. member is not in his seat, but he will be very happy to know that.

There is a vocational school extension in Burin at a cost to DREE of $550,000. of which half will be spent this year and the rest in the next year. The extension will be completed. MR. SMALLIWOD (J .R.): Is this coming from the Tory Government in Ottawa? MR. ROWE: ~o ~r. Speaker, as the hon. Premier probably knows, the Tory Government in Ottawa was defeated because they did not implement such a program before. MR. COLLINS: Inaudible MR. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, I will if I am permitted by the hon. member who I will be happy for his sake to state that, if I have not already, that there is a vocational school extension in Gander at a cost of $550,000. to DREE, of which one half or almost one half will be spent this year. I am sure the hon. member will express his gratitude to me for the next two years. MR. CALLAHAN: He does not want it MR. NOLAN: Sure he will ~. ROWE: The high school, there is a high school 3135

-·r•-- -- -··· _ _. ·- --r- Ml. ROWE, W.H. There is to be a high school to be built in Stephenville 1 Mr. Speaker, at a cost of $1,200,QOO of which $320,000 will be spent this year, and the remainder next year. A present coiiBDitmeali; howev.er of $1,200,000. There is provision, Sir, for an Elementary School in Happy Valley at a cost of $1,100,000,of which one-half will be spent this year and the remainder next year, at which time the school will be ~ompleted.

And there is a provision for a Vocational Training School in Happy Valley at a cost to DREE, at a cost of $1,42~1 000, of which nearly one-half will be spent this year, and the rest next year, when it is completed. I might say, Sir, before going on that as far as the Vocational Training Schools are concerned, the amounts which I have mentioned is coming from DREE can be doubled because Manpower, the Department of Manpower will put in approximately an equivalent ambunt towards construction of those schools.

This is part af . whatl: 1, ·.wu. :talking about when ,I said that there are other ancillary or associated expenditures to be made in this Province directly as a result of the implementation of the DREE program. So, Sir, the sub-total for Vocational School Expenditure under this present first-year agreement is $3,101,000 from DREE, you can double that, to about $6 million, of which $1,466,000 as far as the DREE portion is CODCf!rned to be spent this year.

The other schools, the elementary and high school there· is a total present co~itmen.t .. of $11,182,000, of which $6.5 million will be spent during this present financial year. Hut, Mr. Speaker 1 the road program under DRE~, and first we will deal with the internal roads program .. compared with the truak road pr~am. The internal road program generally connects towns close together, or are involved tft•construction within a town or a municipality or a city. The first one that we mention is the St.

John's Harbour Arterial, of which people have heard about, which will cost in the vicinity of $12,100,000, of which for the design and construction and land acquistion for that road over $12 million, of which $2,300,000 will be spent this year, and the remainder next year. Of course, there is some design work to be done 3136

April 30th. 1970 Tape 715 PK - 2 HR. ROWE: W.N. on that road, which will cut fairly deeply into this year, thus rendering it necessary to spend most of the money next financial year. But over $2 million will be spent on that particular road during this present financial year. And there was a total commitment for the road from DREE under the present program of over $12 million.

Then there is a provision fo~ a road from Carbonear to the Trans-Canada Highway, the desigu and grading of approximately tbree~ailes between Carbonear and Harbour Grace, and a land acquisition comes to nearly $ 1/2 a million all of which is to be spent this year. Next, Sir, we have a road from Marystown to Grand Bank, and it is called an internal road, because it happens to be in that special area down on that peninsula. It is all contained within the special area.

The total cost of that road, the design and construction of that road from Marystown to Grand Bank is over $3 of which over $2 milion will be spent this year and the remainder next year. But there is a present commitment of $3 million !or that road. Nex~. Sir, we have the road from Marystown to St. Lawrence, which will cost $2,272,000 of which $1.5 million will be spent this year and the remainder next year. And there is also a small provision for land acquisition for those roads.

Next, your Honour, there is· a road tO'be designed and constructed from Bishop's Falls to Botwood, at a cost of $615,000, all of which is to be spent, and that road completed during this present financial year. Next, Sir, still dealing .vtth the special areas, Stephenville­ Roads and Bridges, which my bon. friend and colleague will be very happy to bear about, the reconstruction and paving of Highway 47 from White's Road Junction one and a-half miles west towards Stephenville, at a cost of $80,000 all of which will be spent this year. The bon.

Minister of Labour is also involved in some of these here I understand, Mr. Speaker, and he will be probably very happy to hear them. There is a reconstruction and paving of the access · road from Route 47 to the Trade School and Harmon Industrial Area, this undoubtedly means something to those people who are involved in it. Route 47 elude me at the moment. But in any event, $120,000 to be spent on that 3137

MR. ROWE, W.N. particular road, all of which will be spent this year and construction completed. The building bridge over Main Gut at a cost of $800,000, $100,000 of which will be spent this year, the remainder next year, but a total commitment for that project of $800,000. Then there is the Barachois Brook Bridge at a cost of $320,000 of which just about half will be spent this year, and the job completed next year, Mr. Speaker.

Next there is tbe"6orner Brook Harbour Arterial Road, the design and construction and land acquisition for that road comes to a total of about $4,300,000, of which just over $1~~00,000 will be spent this year, Mr. Speaker, and the remainder next year. So we have a total co11111itment for these internal roads, as they are called MR. SMALLWOOD: Is that from the Independent Liberal Government somewhere? MR. ROWE: No, Mr. Speaker, MR. GAI.T ARAN . : Separatist, separatist, MR. WELLS: It is from a real Liberal Government. MR. ROWE: Yes, the same Liberal Government, Mr. Speaker, which the bon. member from St.

John's West kas attacked vehemently a week or day a two ago for being gutless. MR~-SP~~R (NOEL) - Order, Order, please. MR. ROWE: And he wanted the separatist in Quebec to get in, Mr. Speaker. MR. SMALLWOOD: He certainly improved since Saturday Night. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker-, may l continue MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker)on a point of order. The minister is either giving a ministerial statement or be wants a debate, and if the minister wants a debate on anything I have said, I am ready to debate it right now. Mi. SMALLWOOD: Bully boy, bully boy, bully , boy MR. CROSBIE: Fuehrer, fuehrer, fuehrer, MR.

SMALLWOOD: Fuehrer, poorer, bully boy. MR. ROWE: May I continue, Mr. Speaker. MR. CROSBIE: A ministerial statement, on a point of order1Mr. Speaker, a ministerial statement there is nothing in the rules to permit the ministerial statement. It is pe~itted by the members of this Rouse, and we do not have to sit here#Mr. Speaker, and listen to political tripe while the minister / 3138

......... I.&.J MR.. CROSBIE:. ie alledgedly giving a' ministerial state•nt. HR. SMALL~OD: Go out, go out, you cannot take it. .l:'k - .. MR. CROSBIE: The bon. gentleman is not going to walk out of this House, he will have to be carried out, before he goes. MR. SMALLWOOD: He cannot take it. MR. SPEAKER: (NOEL) If he was giving out marks he would have to give fifty percent to either side. Would the minister please continue with his ministerial statement. MR. ROWE: W.N. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The total as I was saying before I was provoked, Mr.

Speaker, a total of $24 million to be spent on these internal roads and bridges of which nearly $9 million will be spent this year, and the remainder commited now, but to be spent next year. Next, Sir, we come trunk road program, some of which will be included in some of the special areas we have beard about, but the greater proportion of which will be, these roads, a greater number of these roads and the amount of mileage of these roads will be done outside the special areas.

The trunk road program includes the road from Boobies to Marystown at a total cost o~ $11,667,000, of which over $8 million will be spent during this present financial year and the remainder next year. Next, Sir, we have a road to be built from Port aux Basques to Burnt Islands at a cost of $890,000 all of which will be spent during this present financial. And nearly a $1 million to be spent on that road, Mr. Speaker. Next, Mr.

Speaker, I am very personally happy to be able to report to the House that there is a road to be built, constructed and paved from Baie Verte to the Trans-Canada Highway at a cost of $2,500,000, all of which will be spent during this present financial year. Next, Mr. Speaker, there is a road to be .design and construction of ·two portions of road, one road, but two portions of road from Lethbridge MR. SMAtLWOOD: Thank God, it is going to the Liberal Party. MR. CALLAHAN: Alleluia. 313 9

--r-- - -- -··· - - ~ - r ..... - » MR. ROWE: I must say. Mr. Speaker. nothing gives me more pleasure to mention this next item. because I know what a great deal of pleasure it will give my bon. friend the member for Bonavista- South. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order • please. MR. BARBOUR: Mr. Speaker. are we going to continue ••••• MR. SPEAKER: Order. order. please. Before the minister continues. I would like to remind visitors in the Galle~es that the House is not suppose to be aware of their presence by laughing or clapping or movem@nt of that nature.

It maybe difficult at time to restrain yourself. Would the minister please carry on. MR. ROWE: W.N. Mr. Speaker. the road is from Lethbridge to Bonavista 1 and as I said it is broken up into two portions. the Lethbridge to Trinity road, which is to be designed and constructed at a cost of $21 370.000 of which ' $1.260.000 will be spent during this present year. And the other portion of the road from Trinity to Bonavista at a cost of $1,700,000 of which $1,395~000 will be speat during this present financial year.

OVer $2.5 million of road work and construction to complete that road, will not to complete it, over $2.5 million Sir, to be spent this year and the remainder next year, and that road will be completed, paved, and the bon. member will probably spent either more time in his dist~ict, he probably spends more time than any other member now. Mr. Speaker. MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. ROWE: He will do"that, Mr. Speaker, as well, I am sure he will be there. ·There is a road from MR. BARBOUR: He can even visit the Barbour Room. MR. MURPHY: Right. MR.

ROWE: There is a road to be_ built from Harbour Breton, to Bay D'Espoir at a cost of nearly $1 million. ~· HICKMAN: How does that grab you, ah! MR. ROWE: I am glad to see the bon. member is happy, Mr. Speaker. a total 3140

April 30th. 1970 Tape· 715 PK- ~ MR. ROWE: of $1 million on that road, all of which will be spent during this financial year. Next. Sir. MR, SMALLWOOD: If my hon. colleague will permit me. that is not all in that direction this year. MR. SPEAKER: (NOEL:) Carry on. MR. ROWE, W.N. Next. Mr. Speaker, there MR. SMALLWOOD: We are not announcing the election today. MR .• ROWE:W.N.: Not today, no. There is a fores.t access road program, Mr. Speaker.

There is a forest access road to be built in the Roddickton Area, a $108,000; and Sop's Arm Area $52,000; Parson's Pond Area $18,000; Central Newfoundland $60,000; and Eastern Newfoundland $30,000 on forest access roads this year. MR. MURPHY: Inaudible • . MR. ROWE: There must have been some mistake somewhere, Mr. Speaker, there is nothing at all in this program for St. John's Centre. I will have the matter checked out as soon as I finish the statement. MR. ROWE: F.W. The areterial road will not hurt, will it? . MR. ROWE, W.N. Now, Mr. Speaker, if I might be permitted to MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. lOWE: W.N. Mr.

Speaker, I am full of sympathy for the bon. members on the other side. MR. SMALLWOOD: Look at the long faces. • MR. ROWE: W.N. The squirm in their seats, as these projects are given out • I could like to continue my statement, if you can protect me from them. The Hickman Highway. The Bon. member for Burin, Mr. Speaker, played a great role in his project. I saw his nose in my office probab.ly, no. I did not see his nose in my office no. I do not think I got a word from him on it. Now. Mr. Speaker • MR. CALLAHAN: You better watch out. they will be after you, MR. ROWE: W.N.

There are a number of other associated expenditures which I will not go into in any detail. 3141

.t'k-"' MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. MR. ROWE:W.N. This is hurting the bon. gentleman so much, Mr. Speaker, he cannot stand to hear any more •. MR. CALLAHAN: Maybe we should drag it out for two or three days. MR. ROWE, W.N. Added to these 1Mr. Speaker,there are certain DREE studies, which will be paid for by DREE. The Industrial Park study will continue in the Mount Pearl, new town area. There is a major water supply study in the works for the new town area.

There are forest~ studies, and minerals studies not of which have been designated any money at this point, but wbi~h will as the year goes on receive substantial injections of money from DREE for the purposes of conducting these studies. And ~mnpower needs, there is a study on that as well. Added to that will be the resettlement agreements which is now $2.5 million every year from DREE.

And a Rural Development Agreement which is not yet signed, but presently being negotiated whioh will probably amount to over a $1.5 ~llion under this present year's agreement, it may go above that, that can only be an estimate at this time. And in the meantime, Mr. Speaker, there will be certain continuing ADB Projects, which DREE will be assuming, which bon . .. member~ can read from the table which i have attached to this statement.

These tables, Sir, do not include any industrial incentive which can be made available by DREE in the form of cash grants to industries and firms looking to set up or expand operations in this Province. Nor Si~. da they include expenditures by other federal governments departments,like the Department of Public Works on such matters as the $16 million to $18 million commitment for the Come­ by-Chance wharves. Of the totals provided directly by· DREE, seventy-five percent will come to the Province as outright cash grants and twenty-five percent in the form of loans.

All of the money whether by grants or by loans is to be provided by the Department of Regional Economic Expansion. MR. SMALLWOOD: Would the bon. minister satisfy me on this, this program that be is now announcing - MR. CROSBIE: To a point of Order,-Mr. Speaker. The bon. Premier refused to answer our question, on the ministerial statement, and I object to his asking 3142

MR. CROSBIE:he_Jaas_ obviously planted question, when one of his minsiter's is making a statement. MR. WELLS: It was ruled out yesterday. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I am not planting • I am asking a question that no one has planted. Would the hon. gentleman explain his statement by telling me whether this program of $95 million is the same program to which somebody objected, and said he hoped, he wish that it was not coming to Hewfoundland7 Is this the same program7 MR. ROWE: W.N.: Yes, I think this is the program, Ur.

Speaker, which a certain gentleman objecte? to, unless there is another program somewhere which he has worked, that same gentleman is working a $100 million, that might be the case. MR. SMALLWOOD: It maybe, in any event Mr. Speaker, some of the project such as the construction of roads will be paid for by 100 percent grants from DREE. Other projects such as the construction of schools 3143

April 30th., 1970 Tape no. 716 ·Page 1 the construction of schools will be paid for by a seventy-five per cent . . cash grant together with a twenty-five per c_ent loan and still others such as; water and sewer ,systems are on a fifty per cent grant and fifty per cent loan basis. The loa.N feature ••• ~· WELLS: Would the hon. minister permit a question? MR. ROtffl (W.N.): Sure, Mr. Speaker • . MR.. WELLS: Would he advise the House what is the involvement of the Department of Regional and Economic Expansion?

I realize it is not contained directly in this, but what is the involvement of that department i~ the wharf at Come-by-ChanceZ When it was announced that department'w~na~~~announced along with it. It was done on behalf of both ministers. Would he tell the House that involvement? MR. ROWE (W.N.): It is not part of this program, Mr. Speaker, but I do not mind giving a general statement on that, a general explanation.

The DREE,.program, as I have announced it here includes those portions of Federal expenditure which ordinarily provincial governments, under the constitution, are required to pay fo~ it and in certain provinces of Canada, the revenues of the provincial government are not sufficient to meet some of these basic capital needs; so DREE was set up,as far as this type of program is concerned, DREE was set up in order to lift off the provincial governments part of the burden of providing these provincial capital requirements.

Things like a wharf in Come-by-Chance is something which would ordinarily in any event cbme under Federal jurisdiction. The same would apply to parks. That does not mean that DREE - actually what it means is this: that DREE will be the co-ordinating department of the Government of Canada for certain expenditures in vari~us provinces. AN HON. MEMBER: All wharves. ~· ROWE (W.N.): Not necessarily, Mr. Speaker, but DREE will be involved very closely in all capital expendi~ures by the Federal Government. _M!_!-~LWOOD..:_ Economic. 3144

--r• .... - -'OJ~··•' _ _, ...... •g,t'C: &&U. 1.1.0 MR. ROWE (W.N.): Economic expansion and all these things. Obviously DREE has to be involved in them, because DREE i~ the department set up. MR. SPEAKER (NOEL): Order please. I think the Speaker has been a little neglectful in his duty in allowing the bon. minister to be interrupted while he is making a ministerial statement. Now we have had one from both sides, and I think the minister should.continue his statement without interruption. The loan feature of DREE as I have said or as I was going to say, Mr.

Speaker, is applied, the loan feature is applied where possible to the types of projects which can be expected to repay the loan through sales or user charges or stumpage or assessments; thus, although the loan is made to the province, the provincial government is required under the agreement, the provincial government will transfer the loan to the municipality, the educational authorities, the housing corporation or other agency which will than be responsible for the repayment of the loan.

Thus, Sir, I am told by our financial advisers of this Government that these loans which will be made at Federal Government interest rates ·of terms of up to twenty years can be presented to the financial world as being distinct from direct debts of the provincial government but rather as in the nature of contingent.l!abilities since they are not a direct charge on the government's revenues. MR. SPEAKER (NOEL) Order please. ~.ROWE (W.N.): Mr. Speaker, it is to be noted that this first year,DREE program. But, Mr. Speaker, what is wrong with the hon. member?

The Speaker just ruled that the minister should continue withou~ interruption until his statement is finished and then a few questions may be asked by the leaders. MR. ROWE: It is to be noted, Sir, that this first year DREE program does not cover all sectors of the~otal development program. For example the· Fisheries Development Program must fit into the emerging, Federal Fisheries 3145

April lOth., 1970 Tape no. 716 Page 3 Program and, therefore, cannot be completely set out until Federal policies are fully determined in this regard. Similarily, forestry, mining and agriculture programs have not yet been finally determined o~ng to the complexities of these particular sectors of our economy. DREE is providing some money for certain aspects of these sectors and will be helping us financially to make further studies. In the meantime, Mr.

Speaker, we are working towards the time in the near future when DREE can provide us with very substantial financial help for the full development of these resources. Before closing, Sir, a word sbould be said about the special areas' concept which DREE has developed. As far as municipal infrastructure is concerned which I have already described, development is being concentrated in eight special areas already announced for the first year. However, it is important, Mr. Speaker, that this policy be looked at in the light of the foll~ng additional considerations~ . Other special areas will be designated later.

As a result of negotiations by this Government, DREE has already indicated that they are willing to add at least three mare special areas to the present list and we can expect money to be spent on the infrastructure by DRBE in at least these three areas, four areas after the signing of the main agreement later this year. Secondly, Sir, public service needs in other areas of the Province are being considered as formerly under the total Provincial program.

In this regard, of course the Ptavince's job in this respect is made somewhat easier as a result of DREE money being spent in the special areas~ since the financial burden is lifted off the Provincial Government to that extent. Thirdly, Sir, the special area idea applies only to the type of infrastructure program which I have already mentioned.

The other DREE programs will largely take place in other areas of the Province and therefore, DREE money will be spent on such projects; the trunk road program; a forestry development program; access roads in the first roads; mineral development: and the resettlement program, both inside and outside of the special 3146

April 30th., 1970 Tape no. 716 Page 4 areas. It should be clear, Mr. Speaker that DREE spending in this Province will have its effect felt in all areas of the Province, not only because money is to be spent by that department outside to special areas, but also because the Provincial Government will be financially freed to the extent of DREE 1 s own expenditure and will, therefore, be enabled to pay special attention to the needs out _the areas designated by DREE.

Finally, Sir, it should be noted, as stated on many occasions that the DREE program represents a very specific and precise selection of projects designed to promote and facilitate economic expansion. That is a Federal policy over which provincial governments have very little, if any control.

Nevertheless, Sir, this Government has made certain that within the limits of that policy and within the limits of the very restricted total amount of money available to DREE for the 1970-71 agreements, Newfoundland's share is as large as human ingenuity, perseverance, industry, argumentation and planning nan possibly make it. I have copies of this, Mr. Speaker for members of the House and for the press. HR. CROSBIE: I would like to ask the minister a question following this ministerial statement.

Would the minister tell us or confirm for us that the proportion of this program which is being advanced by way of loan from the Federal Government - do these loans have to be repaid? That iS my first question. No matter how the Government is going to treat it in t~eir accounting system, do they have to be repaid at some time and would the minister tell us whether or not it is a fact that ~is S18 million was not now being made available in DREE for this wharf at Come-by-Chance, there would have been a further $18 million available for O~her DREE projects in Newfoundland? HR. ROWE (W.N.) Well less than a quarter.

One-quarter of the direct amount coming from DREE is by loan. Yes these loans have to be repaid. The loans have to be repaid, Hr. Speaker, over a period of what twenty years at Federal Government interest rate. Perhaps a point above what the Federal Government itself can borrow its money for. 3147

April 30th 1970 Tape no. 716 Page 5 The other thing, Mr. Speaker, I have been closely involved in negotiations for this DREE program ever since the inception of the Department of Regional Economic Expansion. There has never ·been any indication or intimation of any kind that the amount to be made available for. :the wharf came out of the amount which would have been in ~he DREE program, that it lessened the amount, that the two projects, the two types of projects are~related in anyway. They are entirely separate, Mr. Speaker.

Each stands on its own merits as far as I am able to determine, and I have no knowledge that the case is otherwise. MR. SMALLWOOD: 'Mr. Speaker, I wish to announce to the House that this huge sum of money that has been made available to us this year from the government of Canada, relieves the Newfoundland Government of finding that much money and we are, therefore, this year able to spend money in other parts of the Province other than those that are in this ministerial statement. In other parts of the Province not covered by the amounts mentioned by my bon. friend and, therefore, tomorrow •• MR.

CROSBIE: On ~ Point of Order, 1-!r. Speaker. What the bon. Premier is saying now is not a ministerial statement. The minister has delivered a ministerial statement. Now if we are going to be permitted to debate this, well and good, we do not mind at all debating it, but what the bon the Premier is doing now is not a ministerial statement. He can speak on this in the Budget Speech. He can speak on this in the Estimates • - There is a dozen occasions. Now he is trying to enter into debate on the statement made by the bon. minister. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, I am making a ministerial statement and I am not debating, and I am making this declaration to the House that on tomorrow .. MR. SPEAKER (Noel): Just a momen·t please. I would like to check my ruling on that. When a minister rises in his place to address the House, it is always very difficult for the Speaker to determine whether or not this is a ministerial 3148

orApru 30th., 1970 Tape no. 716 Page 6 statement or not. Now ministerial statements are supposed to be limited to the giving of information to the House and since the person making the statement is a minister of the Crown, if the minister puts it as a ministerial statement, the Chair has very little alternative but to accept it as a ministerial statement provided the minister is giving the House information and, therefore, there is really no point of order there. MR. CROSBIE: Point of Order.

If what your Honour says was to be literally adhered to, we could spend day after day here with ministers popping up, stating or giving the House information on ministerial statements. What the bon. the Premier is saying now is covered in the Budget Speech. It has been said in the Budget Speech thatthe money ·made available by Ottawa from DREE would relieve the Newfoundland Government so that it can spend more of its own money on other procedures. There is nothing that the Premier is now saying that was not already said in the Budget Speech, and he Is mis­ abusing.

He is abusing the use of a ministerial statement. MR. SPEAKER (NOEL): Order please. Carry on. MR.. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, the·ministerial statement that I am endeavoring to make is this: that the areas of our Province not covered in the ministerial sta~ement that we have just heard, the other parts of the Province for which DREE is not spending any money this year, are to be covered in a statement by the Minister of Highways who will give the Government's program of road work this year in the parts of the Province not already mentioned in the previous ministerial statement and on ~~nday by the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing to cover certain other appects of this year's development program; so that on tomorrow and on Monday, the House will get ministerial statements to supplement and augment the ministerial statement we have juat heard, but with application to the parts of the Province not covered in the ministerial statement just heard.· ~·· CAIIEAHAI-!: Mr.

Speaker, I have two announcements to make to the House whiCh I think will be of interest to farmers and those engaged in any sector of the 3149

AprU 30th., 1970 Tape no. 716 Page 1 agricultural industry in this Province. The first statement, Mr. Speaker, has to do with the proclamation this day of th~ Natural Products Marketing Act, 1966-67 which provides for the creation of· the Newfoundland Marketing Board and other marketing agencies, and I have pleasure, Sir, in announcing to the Bouse the names of the members of the board appointed under that A~t. To be chairman, the present Director of Agriculture in the Department of Mines, Agriculture .and Resources, one of the most senior civil servants in tlm Province and one of the most knowledgable persons in the Provinee in Agricultural matters, Mr. A. C. Badcock. The members 3150

April 30, 1970 Tape #717 Page 1 MR. CALL~~= members of the Board, Mr. Badcock Mr. Speaker, will be the full time chairman. The members of the Board are to be Mrs. Lind of Grand Jalls and Godden Tilley of Robina, and the intention · I thinkJ Mr. Speaker, is obvious, namely to provide the Board in the first instance with geographical representation in Central and Western Newfoundland, and in the second instance in the appointment of Mrs. Lind to provide for some consumer interest, or consumer representation on the Board. The main function of the Board)Mr.

Speaker, will be to insure the orderly marketing of certain natural products being agriculture products, in response primarily to the needs a~d desires of the agriculture industry. The agriculture industry in this Province today in terms of our size our population is a very important industry which employ• some 3,500 people, and which products •alued at approximately $16 million a year. Now1Mr.

Speaker, the implementation of legislation to establish the Board, and this is what I am announcing today, brings us up to date with marketing activities which have been going on in other provinces of Canada for aany years. There are today some 120 farm products mar~eting agencies of various kinds, currently operatinR in the other nine provinces. And as of this aoment there is no such agency in operation in Newfoundland.

We have deferred to the disappointment and frustration perhaps of some producers, deferred until now the proclamation of the Act, and the appointment of the Newfoundland Marketing Board for this reason, Mr. Speaker, that for approximately two years there have been going on Federal-Provincial aegotiations with respect to the establishment of an over-all national marketing council, and this council, this national marketing structure to eaa•re orderly supply management across the country now is being established under so I will be certain Sir ~ Bill C197, which is

an Act To Establish the National Farm Products Marketing Council and to Authorize the Establishment of National Marketing Agencies for Farm Products. That Act C1971Mr. Speaker, is prese~tly before the Rouse of Commons, having been given first reading 3151

April 30, 1970 Tape #717 Page 2 on the 17th. March. Our feeling was that we should not introduce marketing st.uctures in this Province until we could see what the national structure would be, and how we would infact fit into it and mesh with it. Mr. Speaker, it is necessary in the Government's opinion so that Newfoundland might benefit from the operations of the National Farm Products Marketing Council, that this Province be represented by a Provincial Marketing Board under the authority of appropriate provincial legislation.

The legislation has been on our books now for s~me three years, but we have held off, as I said in order to be sure that we would be able to mesh with the Federal legislation, and our most recent comparison of our legislation to the new Federal Act indicates that there will be difficulty. One other word that I should say about this 1Mr.

Speaker, is that in the operation of marketing legislation, in the legislation we have, provision is made to establish schemes for the promotion control, regulation or prohibition of the marketing of any agricul~ure product, and indeed to constitute local Boards to administer such schemes. It is not our intention in any way, shape or form that the Government as such or th~ough the marketing Board, will actually operate the marketing schemes for particular products!· and . I think it is important,sir, that this be understood.

Any scheme that is-undertaken for the orderly marketing for the supply management in respect of any agriculture product, will be undertaken by the producers, by the farmers themselves. Any Boards set up to deal with particular · products will be producer Boards. The function of the Newfoundland Marketing Boar~Mr. Speaker, roughly will parallel the functions of the Public Utilities Board of this Province.

The Board of Commiss~oners of Public Utilities, in thaa a group of producers who wish to establish some kind of orderly marketing~sChem~, or scheme for orderly marketing, will have to make application in the proper way to the Newfoundland Marketing Board appear before the Board, possibly in public hearings, and indeed there will be. I think I can safely say public hearings and the Board will make its decision on the basis both of the validity of the application 3152

April 30, 1970 Tape #717 Page 3 and the supporting evidence, and taken together with that, the entire public interest, And this is Why as I have indicated, we have a lady on tlts Board because we think the public interest in the consumer interest will thereby be represented. And in addition to that of course, the lady in question is a very excellent choice, both she and Mr. Tilley of Robinsons are outstanding citizens of the sections of the Province they represent. Mr.

Speaker, within the framework of the policy as I have generally enunciated it, it is our view that the implementation of this marketing legislation and the establishment of the Newfoundland Marketing Board . . will greatly improve the marketing of the products of the agriculture industry in this Province, and also the welfare of those engaged within, that industry while at the same time insuring the consumer becau•e if the agriculture industry is not aware of consumer needs and demands, it cannot be successful, the second objective therefore, is to insure the consumer will get a fair return on his dollar.

The second thing I wish to announce~Mr. Speaker, is that as a result of representation made by this Government to the Government of Canada, at the request of and behalf of dairy farmers, the hog industry, the poultry and broiler industry - and other segments of the agriculture industry in the Province. We have been advised as to today, 1 have a letter which came to me just before I came to the House Mr. Speaker, from the Federal Minister, the Ron. H.A.

OLSON, the Federal Minister of Agriculture, which advises that the expected or p~oposed ~edaction:c in the subsidy on feed grains, the freight subsidy will not take place this year. Mr. Speaker, it had been proposed and indeed a national task force very strongly suggested about a year ago, that the subsidies paid by the Government of Canada to lower the freight rates on feed grains for agricultural purposes be eliminated altogether. Last Fall when it became known that the Budget of the Canadian Livestock Feed Board for this year, or at least of its Estimates, would be reduced by some $5 million.

There was ~ry much concern on the part of people in this Province, farmers in this Province, and I might say on the part of 3153

April 30, 1970 Tape 1717 Page 4 this Government. And we immediately made representation to the Federal Minister, Mr. Olson and our Newfoundland minister in the Canadian Cabiaet the Minister of Transport 1Mr. Jamieson. I am very pleased Sir, to announce today that while it is not possible to accurately determine the total feed grain demand twelve months ahead, or to say precisely where this matter will go in the long term, that the rates of assistance, the rate of subsidy which lowers very materially the freight rates on being imported into this Province, will not be changed this year. The import of it Mr.

Speaker is that without the subsidy, many of our farmers would not exist. and We cannot in this Province grow grains . winter feeds, and therefore, we are totally dependent or almost totally dependent on imports from other parts of Canada in order to procure a feed for the various phases of agriculture I have mentioned. And so I am very pleased Sir, to tell the House and I am sure the farmers of this Province will be very pleased to learn that in this year at least, as a result of the representations we have made, there will not be a decrease in the rates of assistance on feed grain subsidies. MR..

MURPHY: Will the bon. Minister permit me one question? With reference to geographical representation on this marketing Board, who is the Eastern representative? MR.. CALLAHAN : Wel~,Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that Mr. BadcockJ who is the chairman, and who is equally a member of the Board with the other two, will be the full time chairman, and indeed resides in St. John's. Be will be moving out of the department to be full time chairman of the Board. I thirik the Eastern sector of the Province which is a fairly compact region in . any event, will be . fairly represented. MR.. MURPHY: Mr.

Speaker, if I may, and I do not want to get into a debate, but it seems rather strange to ~e when Mr. Badcock has been with the department for years and a Civil Servant, and the other two people apparent~y are just independent people familiar with farming. It is rather si~nificant why one of our farmers on the East Coast have not been invited to ~o on this Board. 3154

April 30, 1970 Tape #717 Page 5 MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker, and I am glad the hon. gentleman asked the question because it is an important point. Neither of the other persons, the other ~mhers of the Boar~Mr. Speaker, is engaged in farming or in agriculture in any way, and it was our intention that we not have farmers on this Board. This Board 1Mr.

Speaker, has to be completely above the possibility of reproach as to have complete integrity, and to have agricultural producers of persons involved in agriculture production on the Board, would prejudice very seriously the Board and their own position when an application from a group of producers came before the Board. So what we have done is find two very excellent citizens who with the most experienced man the Government has, whom we are willing to devote to this because this is a very important matter.

These two persons with the most experienced man we can find in the Province, I think, will give every producer who comes before the Board, and indeed every member of the public, who may come to represent a consumer view, a very good and close and respectful hearing, but to have producers and farmers on the Boar~Mr.

Speaker, would frustrate the intention of the Board, which is that it not only provide a means by which farmers can come together and legally and with the law of their side·control agricultural production in marketing, but also that the total consumer interests be protected with no possibility, with no shadow or shade of suspicion attaching to the Board, or to anybody else. 3155

just to get the record straight, MR. SPEAKER: Order please! The hon. member cannot ask a question on a ministerial statement. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: HON. J.R.SMALLHOOD(Premier): Mr. Speaker, Question 488 on today's Order Paper in the name of the bon. member for Burin.

The answer is as follows: The Economics Branch of the Bank of Montreal; in Montreal; The Department of Finance of the Government of Canada; The Department of Regional Economic Expansion of the ,Government of Canada; The Department of Energy of the Government of Canada and the American Firm of Stone & Webster Engineers of New York City. question No. 489: MR.CROSBIE: A supplementary question Mr. Speaker. Would the bon. the Premier inform the House whether the studies will be made available to the members of the House? MR.SMALLWOOD: They will not be ma~e available_,Mr. Speaker. MR.WELLS: A supplementary question,.

Mr. Speaker. In the light of this answer would the Hon. the Premier also tell the House. if it was the same people who provided the figures that are reported on page 23 of the Budget Speech that the costs .for this c·urrent year would be $3,982,000 when indeed the estimates showed to be $6,752,000, who did the figures? MRT 8MA11WOOD; No, Mr. Speaker. MR.WELLS: They did not. I did not think so.

MR.SMALLWOOD: Question No. 488 on today's Order Paper (2) spread over a period of a good many months, no particular date, many many dates. question No. 489, on today's Order Paper in the name of the bon. member for Burin the answer is that this is .privileged and confidential information. question No. 495, on today's Order Paper in the name of the hon. member f6~ St. John's West, the answer to the first

part is no,

(2) If we do we will let the bon. gentleman know in due course. HON.L.R.CURTIS(Min. of Justice): Mr . Speaker, in reply to Question No. 497, I have received no resignation or request for pension. (2) does not apply. HON.W.J.KEOUGH(mfn. Of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table tne answer 3156

to Question No. 487, on today's Order Paper in the name of the hon. member for Burin. MR.. WELLS: Mr. Speaker,a supplementary question. I missed it, on the answer just given by the Minister of Justice on 497 if he will permit it. In the light of the answer given by the bon. the Premi~r to 495, is that the resignation of Chief Pittman was not requested and the answer just given by the Minister of Justice that he has not tenderEd it .how was it able to be announced? It was announced earlier, he has not given it and has not been requested how could it be announced? MR.CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Labour did he answer,did the minister of Labour answer a question if so which one was it? MR.KEOUGH: No. 487 on today's Order Paper. MR.CROSBIE: Which Order Paper? MR.. KEOUGH: Today ' s • ORDERS OF 'IRE DAY: MR.CROSBIE: I would like to move. the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance.

And the urgent matter, or the matter of urgent public importance is, the matter of a salary increases proposed in the budget speech and in the ministerial statement the Premier delivered in the House of Assembly on April 29th, for civil servants and hospital workers and members of the Newfoundland Constabulary, firemen those and prison warders, and the response of/groups with reference to the proposed salary ~ncreases to the effect that ·unless their requests are met for across the board increases and unless the system of classification for civil servants is postponed the said civil servants, policemen, firemen, prison warders and non-government hospital workers may withdraw their services as at May 8, 1970 with respect to hospitals at Grand Falls and Corner Brook.

As of May 1, with respect of police~en, firemen, and prison warders. And an undetermined date with respect for the remainder of the civil service. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is a matter of urgency that should be discussed here today, it is urgent to debate it , today, With referen~e to the constabulary)& deadline has been given of 2 o'cl~ck tomorrow afternoon, they are waiting to hear from the 3157

Government or waiting to hear what the Government's position is. No one can understand the ministerial statement that has been made to date as to what just that involves, for the men involved, what the Government's offer now is, the same applies with respect to firemen, and to prison warders. But the part altogether from the matter of the constabulary 1Mr.

Speaker, it was announced today in Corner Brook that• .the Christopher Fisher division of the Western Memorial Hospital is being closed now, not May 8th, they are starting to close their facilities now because they have been notified that a strike will take place ·on May 8th, if the legitimate grievances of these employees are not dealt with, and it is therefore~Mr. Speaker;• matter of urgency now. Now Mr. Speaker, as far as the Order Paper is concerned the rules are concerned page 15 of our Standing Orders, says the right to move the adjournment of the Bouse for these purposes is subject to certain restrictions:

(1) Not more than aaet·auch motion can be made at the same sitting; this is the only motion made at this sitting.

(2) Not more than one matter can be discussed on the same motion; this is all of one matter.

(3) The motion must not revive discussion on a matter which .has been discussed in the same session; this matter has not been discussed in this session. (4) the motion must not anticipate a matter which has previously been appointed for consideration by the House, Mr. Speaket, the matters dealt with in this motion have not been appointed for consideration by this House. When the matter was raised several days ago reference was made through a motion having to do with second reading of a Bill on the Constabulary Force of Newfoundland and a Pension Plan for the Constabulary -Force.

Neither of those Bills have been presented to this Bouse or given to the members of the House, so obviously they cannot, those Bills cannot be debated today or tomorrow or for several days. The debate on the budget has not started nor has the debate on the estimates started and when those debates may start we do not know)Mr. Speaker, but the Premier of the Province was heard to say t. publicly yesterday that as far as he was concerned he did not think that these debates would be brought on this week. Mr. Speaker; in any other P~ovince or Parliament such a grave and 3158

serious emergency as now faces the Province would justify if the House of Assembly was not in session the calling together of the House of Assembly and I submit 1 Mr. Speaker, that this is an urgent matter.'the members of this House should be permitted to discuss today just what exactly is the Govern­ ment offering these employees. Just what the statements made tdpate · . .meao The confusion needs to be clear&d up. An amount of $12,million is mentioned by the Bon. the Premier as being the amount involved that 20,000 persons got an increase.

But it is not 20,000 people he is including in that teachers of the Province •. There are conciliation boards appointed who gave reports many months ago, recommending wage increases for the hospital workers 2t Corner Brook and Grand Falls. Their recommendations have not been carried into effect. They recommended wage increases MR.SMALLWOOD: Point of order. The bon. gentleman is now going on with the debate as though it had been decided to stop all other business of the House and go on with the debate. He ~~snow started his debate. And I hold 1Mr. Speaker,tbat be is out of order • .

We have to settle the question whether the Bouse will now defer all other business to go on to this matter without going into the matter we have to decide whether we will go into it. MR.SPEAKER(Noel): As I understand the rules, I do not think we need to hear too much about it,it has been discussed so often, as I understand the rules 23 (

a) says that the member desiring to make the motion rises and states the motion, and 23 (

c) states that he passes the written statement of the matter that he proposed to be :discussed which I have. And then the question with which the Speaker has to consider is whether there is urgency of debate and then also the restrictions on it even though there is an urgency of debate. Haw a& i l read the statement given me by the han. member for St. John's West. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, before you make your ruling I was referring to the Standing Orders I will leave the other matter. Mr. Speaker 1

section 23 (c? states that a written statement on the matter proposed to be discussed is handed to Mr.Speaker, who if he thinks it in order and of urgent public importance reads it out and asks whether the member has the leave of the House. ~ow, Mr. Speaker, I submit to you that I see no way really in which Your Honour '3159 . I

could find this now to be of urgent public importance and I submit to Your Honour that you should find the motion to be in order and of urgent public importance so that we can then see whether twelve members will arise accordingly _j HR.SPEAKER: The bon. member for St. John's West is correct but unfortunately I have to also consider the provisions of twenty three (

f) and the written statement which I have here is to, really deals with the budget so I move the adjournment of the House to debate a matter of urgent public importance namely: the matter of salary increases proposed in the budget speech and in the ministerial statement of the Premier delivered in the House of Assembly on April 29th, for civil servants, hospital workers, members of the Newfoundland Constabulary, firemen and prison warders.

AQd the response of those g~oups with reference to the proposed salary increases to the effect that unless their requests are met for across the board increases, and unless the system of classification for civil servants is postponed, the said civil servants, policemen, f~remen, prison warders and non-government hospital workers may withdraw their services as at May 8th, 1970. With respect of hospitals at Grand Falls and Corner Brook as at May 1st, with respect to police9en,firemen prison warders and an undertermined date with respect to the remainder of the civil service.

Now as I see that, tha~ is simply an attempt to have a discussion now from the reaction of certain groups to matters contained in the b~dget speech. And the budget speech is appointed on the Order Paper. And I do not see how, the Speaker can deviate from the ruling that was given yesterday by Mr. Speaker to the effect that although this matter is of public urgency the Speaker cannot put the question to the House because it is appointed on the Orders of the Day.

And since it is appointed on the Orders of the Day the Leader of the Bouse has to accept responsibility for the way in which the Orders of the Day are called. Now bon. members have drawn the matter to the attention of the House, it· is appointed on Orders of the Day and the Leader of the House takes full responsibility for the manner in which the order in which Orders of the Day are called, and therefore I have to find that although the matter is of some urgency the Speaker cannot put the 3160

motion to adjourn the House is out of order. Ml\.CROSBIE: lotr. Speaker, c:an I add~eaa further argument~ to Your Honour. With respect and I would like to appeal your Speaker's ruling. Ml\.SPEAKER: The motion is that the ruling of the Chair be upheld, these in iavour please say naha' ·' contraminded ~'nay." I declare the motion carried. Oil Division: 3161

............ ,_.., -·· - ..... HR. SPF~ER: Will those in favour of the motion, that the Speaker's ruling stand, please rise. The hon. the Premier, the bon. the President of the Council, the hon. the Minister of Labour, the hon. Mr. Lewis, the hon. the Minister of Highways, the bon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs, Mr. Smallwood, Mr. Hodder, Mr. Strickland, the hon. the Minister of Public Works, the hon. the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources, the hon. the Minister of Community and Social Development, the hon. the Minister of Public Welfare, Mr. Barbour, the bon. Mr.

Hill, the hon. the Minister of Supply, Dr. McGrath, Mr. Saunders, Mr. Mahoney, Mr. Wornell. MR. SPEAKER: Would. hon. members opposed, please stand. The bon. the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Hickey, Mr. Collins, Mr. Earle, · Mr. Hickman, Mr. Wells, Mr. Crosbie, Mr. Abbott, Mr. Murden. MR. SPEAKER: I declare the motion carried. Twenty-four - nine against. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. CROSBIE: On orders of the day, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Justice a question.

Has the Minister of Justice received any indication from representatives of the Newfoundland Constabulary that they wish to meet with the Government to discuss the present sitution? HR. CURTIS: I received a letter,Mr. Premier,:,just before I came into the House and I have not had a chance to look into it knowing that the Premier is going to make the statement that he has made this afternoon. MR. CROSBIE: Was the hon. the minister willing to arrange a meeting with them before tomorrow at 2:00 o'clock? MR. CURTIS: I am not sure, Mr.

Speaker, that I can in view of the statement that the Premier has passed the ball to the members of these various committees to send delegations to the Government. MR. CROSBIE: But the hon. member realizes that the constabulary are not members of the NGEA, does he not? MR. CURTIS: They are included in the statement. MR. CROSBIE: Pardon! ------ MR. CURTIS: They are all mentioned in the statement. 3162

·rape 1 J.'J .JM - 2 MR. CROSBIE: The constabulary are not members of the NGEA. MR. CURTIS: The statement says the Government would be glad to have ~he advice and assistance of the NGEA and of representatives and of representatives of other bodies such as the police and hospital work~rs. MR. CROSBIE: Well the hon. minister has heard then from the constabulary that they are willing to meet. Is he going to arrange to meet with them before tomorrow at 2:00P.M.? MR. CURTIS: Mr.

Speaker, there is a committee appointed by the Government to meet with them and with the other members and the committee is told that they have so much money, they got $6,000,000 to distribute. Now they are all invited to get together and divide up the spoils. MR. CROSBIE:' Who do they contact? MR. CURTIS: They can contact, apply to the council, Mr. Channing. MR. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, on orders of the day, would the Minister of Justice advise the House if it is correct that units of the Black Watch Regiment are being made available in case the police do go out on strike~ I am sure people are concered to know what other provision is being made. MR. CURTIS: MR. WELLS: MR. CURTIS: MR. WELLS: MR.. CURTIS : MR. WELLS: I would rather have notice of that. Take notice of it and the strike going off tomorrow? There will be no strike tomorrow. Stop your nonsense. Very good. That is real concerned of you. No, everybody is not foolish.

On orders of the day, the Minister of Health is not in his seat so I can only refer the matter to the bon. the Premier, what steps are being taken to correct the situation that now exists in Corner Brook in the light of the statement this morning that they are presently closing out the Christopher Fisher Division of the hospital. They cannot wait until the 8th of May because then they will not have staff.

They are now in the process of closing out the Christopher Fisher Division of the hospital and moving to the Western Memo~ial on an emergency basis only, what steps are the Government taking to correct this situation? ~. SMALLWOOD: I have nothing to add to the statement I made in this House today. 3163

J:ape 11~ JM- 3 MR. WELLS: That is real concern. ORDERS OF TilE DAY Motion, Second Reading of a Bill, "An Act Furth~r To Amend The Dog Act". MR. CROSBIE: Ah, the Dog Act, the Dog Act. MR. NEARY: Big sook. MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker, if hon. gentlemen - MR. NEARY: Big sook is at it again. MR. CALLAHAN: If hon. gentlemen will contain themselves, Mr. Speaker, and I know they find that increasingly difficult to do. AN. HON. MEMBER·: The big sook, Mr. Speaker. MR. BURGESS: A couple of days ago it was quack, quack, quack. The hon. gentleman has been reincarnated. Finally flipped. MR. CALLAHAN: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman may think this is very funny and very hilarious but I assure him that he is quite wrong. MR. SPEAKER (NOEL): Will the hon. minister please continue with his motion. MR. CALLAHAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I think it is pretty obvious that I am suffering the same w!lcome that other Ministers of Agriculture no doubt have suffered through the years when this question of putting, if I may say so, Sir, teeth in the Dog Act has arisen. Of course, what we are trying to do is remove the teeth from the dogs, at least remove the dogs and thereby the teeth. But very seriously, Mr.

Speaker, there are very serious problems and which over the years it has just been impossible to overcome in terms of the damage and destruction caused by stray dogs particularily where farmers are concerned. There is a man in Portugal Cove who came to see me last fall and brought some coloured pictures of some of his animals which had been set upon by dogs; Mr. Speaker, and the evidence of that damage to him, to his· interest and to his investment was not a very pretty thing to see.

The same kind of thing has happened very recently in a major way in Bay of Islands in the Irishtown area, and the same thing exactly has happened very recently further west in the Highlands area where individuals hav; suffered very serious loses. very tragic loses. 31G4 r

- '"'r .. .-..&. J v """, .&. ;~ 1 v J:ape 1 J.., JM - 4 MR. CALLAHAN: Hr.

Speaker, there was a time when the sheep population in this Province, and let me say that if we have a chance of real success in terms of livestock, the best chance, by far the best chance we have is in sheep raising, and I know of at least a dozen farmers, citizens of this Province, with the money and with the know-how as what it would take to raise good sheep flocks, who had been deterred either by damage which they ·themselves have suffered and incurred or by v~tue. of the potential treat which they recognize in the damage that others have indeed suffered and of which of course they are aware.

We have one in particular and perhaps a couple of others, very useful . ·~: very large scale sheep raising developments under way. One of them, the one I referred to particularily is in Branch where a company, a Newfoundland company, is undertaking a quite large development and if it comes to fruition over the next couple of years it will be, I think, Mr.

Speaker, perhaps the biggest and hopefully the most successful of its kind ever undertaken in this Province and it will find its markets not only in Newfoundland but very largely on the mainland of Canada because there is a tremendous market for Newfoundland lamb, Hr. Speaker, and a tremendous price-available. These developments, developments of this kind, offer employment, they offer a good product to our local market and in each case they retain in this Province money which otherwise would have gone elsewhere. Part of our economic progress, Mr.

Speaker, I think and a s~gnificant part of it will be found in agriculture and within agriculture itself, a significant part of it in sheep raising providing the proper condition, the proper climate of operation is provided. Up until this time, Mr. Speaker, the Dog Act has been administered in terms of enforcement, in terms of what happens when a case goes to court has been admi~istered under the

Summary Jurisdiction Act which means to say that Magistrates have had complete discret~on as to the penalties ta be provided. In the case of the man that I mentioned · from Portugal Cove in terms of his loss, I am not sure at this point whether the responsible parties could be found ~ecause obviously the stray dogs not being licensed or tar,ged could not be traced to their real owners and nobody was about obviously to claim owner- 31G5

~ -r- ..... , MR. CALLAHAN : ship. But if a case can be brought to court, Mr. Speaker, very often because there is an emotional factor in this thing,very often the penalties imposed had been extremely light and it has not been unusual to find that a fine say of a dollar has been impo~ed or that sentance has been suspended or whatever it happens to be. Of course there is bound to be public outcry if animals are destroyed particularily if at that point somebody does come along and claim ownership. Mr.

Speaker, I think what we have to aim to do, I think we have to be tough if we are going to protect the investment of farmers, I think we have to be reasonable but I think we cannot proceed entirely on a motion in this thing. I think that sheep raising and the keeping of dogs as pets need not be incompatible.· It can be quite compatible providing the owners of dogs are prepared to keep them confined or chained or under control. The difficulty is that so many mongrel dogs are roaming around under no control, under no confinement, no ownership and this is of course where the problem is. And, Mr.

Speaker, we want to get tough in terms of owners who can be traced because we do not think it is fair or just that owners of dogs that are allowed to roam at large and cause serious loses to farmers should be permitted to do that with freedom and with immunity. So, Mr. Speaker, one of the 31G6

April 30, 1970 Tape 11720 Page 1 MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker, one of the changes that this amendment seeks to bring about will be to provide within the Act itself a penalty, and there is a provision that

Summary Jurisdiction Act, rather than to give the magistrate full discretion heretofore, in future the

Summary Jurisdiction Act will not be applied without the written consent of the Minister of Ju8tice. So that in future cases, in virtually every case, except Ohere there are extenuating circumstances and the Minister of Justice gives a written instruction, the action will be taken under this Act, where the fines are set out. And I must say1Mr. Speaker, they are rather heavy. For the first offense the fine is not less than ten dollars, not exceeding $100 and default of payment, imprisonment for a period not exceeding one month.

And for each subseque~t offense, the fine not less than fifty dollars, and not exceeding $200 and in default, imprisonment for a period not exceeding three months. I Now1Mr. Speaker, this is one thing I think that has to be done. think another approach to it is a somewhat different licencing procedure, which we are about to embark upon. I think we have to insure, and this is what the fines hopefully will do, that the t"ine is not so light that it simply becomes a 11cence 1Hr. Speaker.

So we have to take a different approach to licencing and to inspection and at the sase time provide penalties that will in fact have some deterent affect. This has not been the case up· ;until this time. The principle change 1Mr. Speaker, is the Act the amendment would make, is to provide that residents of Labrador for the first time, make legally without special permission keep dogs as pets.

It may not be generally known,Sir, that up until now, this has not b~en possible, that any resident of Labrador has not been permitted by the law, to keep a dog as a pet without special permission. ·My bon. friend here said, well he made a reference that is both right and wrong;Mr. Speaker. The situation is that because the Eskimo dogs of-Labrador have until very recent years, . been a very principle means of transportation for so many people, the ban on other dogs - the provision whereby inbreedin~ that would break down the strain as the Labrador Eskimo dog has been pro~ected - protection 3167

ApTil 30, 1970 Tape #720 Page 2 has been there in terms of the disallowance of other types of dogs to be kept without as I have said, some special permission. But becauseJMr. Speaker, in recent years, the dog has pretty well had his day, they say every dog must. And the Labrador Husky has in terms of transportation, because most people now of course, use motorized toboggans for transportation, and we no longer see the necessity from that point of view1Mr. Speaker, to protect the pure breed of eskimo dog. At the same time it would be too bad if the breed were to be _allowed to die out altogether.

AndfHr· Speaker, by the same token, whereby other types of dogs are not allowed to be kept in Labrador, so Eskimo. dogs, or Labrador Eskimo dogs have hot been permitted to be kept or to be brought into the Island, and so we have a sort of double-barrel situation there. We do not propose provision to change 1Mr. Speaker, the latter . .. . ' at this time. Labrador Eskimo dogs may be brought into the Province, or into the Island from Labrador with permission, by permit.

But I think because of the nature of the dog, because the animal is somewhat wild, and it is believed derived from some kind of cross way back between Alsatian and perh~ps some wolf species, and is to some extent at least a wild animal that particular breed may not in fact be compatible with being kept in close communities. But,Mr.

Speaker, from time to time, if one gentleman a couple of years ago came and sought and indeed was told that he could obtain, he could get permission to breed Labrador Eskimo dogs in the island, and then for some reason, I really do not know what reason, because he never did follow through, decided not to do so. Now it may be possible tha~ others will be interested, and we would be quite prepared to entertain applications, which would be granted and which we would comply under certain conditions. Perhaps after a time, these dogs would become acclimatized and accustomed to living in close populated communities.

But for the moment1Mr. Speaker, the Act would remove the general prohibition against keeping in Labrador types, breeds of dogs other than the Labrador eskimo dogs. Now we think this provision as it stands now works a hardship on residents of Labrador, particularly the new and large and built-up communities, and that it is time it be removed. There is one other matter I should like

April 30, 1970 Tape 1720 Page 3 to touch on~r. Speaker, because from time to time, it comes to our attention, and that is the control of dogs within municipalities. Now1 Hr. Speaker, there are areas of jurisdiction which I think essentially must be observed, and we are not anxious to become responsible for the control of dogs, roaming dogs in the municipalit~.

We think there should be a municipal responsibility, but at the same time, there are municipalities which do complain to us, and I can only say that we would like to limit any participation on the Govern~nt's part to advice add/or consultation with these communities as to what they might do. We think we have some people with experience who could indeed give them some very good advice. We are not interested 7Mr. Speaker, nor do we have the finances or the facilities or the people to in any way become responsible for the control of dogs within municipalities.

One other thing, perhaps I should say too, is that we are considering in areas where there is sizeable sheep production, where there are siz~able sheep flocks, considering clearing those areas if necessary so to do as special shee~ breeding areas, where we would be very tough and perhaps even ban if the need became that apparent - the keeping of dogs~Mr.

Speaker, within a certain radius or a certain distance of enclosed sheep flocks, because of course, the sheep flocks as other cattle today, are more and more being confined whether they are on our communitt pastures or elsewhere, because of course the communities are no more anxious to have roaming cattle on their streets, than there are roaming dogs. Mr.

Speaker, that is aside from the Bill, the ·Bill, the amendment will provide some additional protection for sheep farmers, and perhaps remove the barrier that now exists to the.~rowth of the sheep breeding industry, and at the same time I think, remove what is perhaps, an inequity and ce~tainly a hardship on residents of Labrador who unlike other residents of the Province, have to have some kind of a special permission to keep a dog around the house as a pet. I move second readina Mr. Speaker. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I cannot believe my ears. Listenin~ to that hon. 3169

April 30, 1970 Tape 1720 Page 4 minister, I can hardly believe my ears. We are standing here talking about dogs going in and out of Labrador, and the ri~ht to have dogs as household pets, and the hospital is Corner Brook is being closed out, the police are contemplating going on strike, and we are wasting our time talking ab~ut dogs. MR. SPEAKER: Order please: MR. CALLAHAN: Certainly,Mr. Speaker, that has nothing to do with the speech. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member from Humber East knows better than that. MR. WELLS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I know better. That is precisely why I will sit down and not say a word.

I would be ashamed of myself to waste the time. I would be ashamed of it. Disgusting! MR. SPEAKER: Is it the_pleasure of the House that the said Bill be now read a second time? Those in favour please say "aye" contrary "nay" carried. On Motion a Bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Dog Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. Bill No.

(14) MR. CALLAHAN: Mr. Speaker, we have some serious problems in this P~ovince in respect of our Wildlife Resources, and the House will learn I think a ~ittle later, about some measures that we intend to take in addition to the Bill now before the House. The Bill before the House today~Sir, attempts to provide some control and some procedures such as do not now exist in respect of the seizure of items of various kinds that maybe seized by our Wildlife officials in respect of contraventions of the Wildlife Act. The real problems 1Mr.

Speaker, the major ones today have to do really with aircraft, with expensive boats and engines, with snow toboRgans which may cost anywhere upwards, some of them of a thousand dollars and more and also with other kinds of motor vehicles. The problem that arises, Mr. Speaker if a Wildlife Officer apprehends somebody some citizen, who has been using an aircraft or a high priced snow toboggan, or a truck or a car or a boat, the difficulty in seizure of course, then becomes 3170

April 30, 1970 Tape #720 Page 5 apparent. If the vehicle is seized the first problem that arises, I suppose, is the problem of transportation for the person involved to set"·back to wherever he came from and then there is the attendant problem - if he happens to be somebody who is using perhaps his vehicle in his work, he has lost his transportation. There is a difficulty with aircraft. If one seizes an aircraftJHr.

Speaker, in connection with the violation of the Wildlife Act, obviously to take the least I suppose an eighteen or twenty thousand dollar very small aircraft even, is quite an item to be seized and held and how do you hold it and how do you protect it, and how do you insure that if the charge against the individual is not sus­ tained. How do you insure that the machine is taken care of and indeed returned to the owner in good condition. Because of course the owner should not be penalized simply because he has been charged. so,Hr. Speaker, these are some of the problems that arise.

We are again in the position of either applying penalities or because the penalty would be too severe and there is no discretion applying no penalty at all. So, Mr. Speaker, what we propose to do is - rather than necessarily detain these vehicles or these very expensively priced items, is to require . that perhaps a cash deposit of some kind be imposed - if it were an aircraft for example the deposit might be an amount of five hundred thousand dollars. I am not sure if the amounts, I do not think the amounts are set out in the Act. I think this would go in the Regulations. But this would enab1P us1 Hr.

Speaker, to have some control. Many of the aircraft involved in Wildlife violation for example again in Labrador are from outside the Province, and obviously it is going to be very difficult to de~ain the person involved if he can jump in his own little private plane and take off, and you may never see him again. If you can detain the aircraft fine - but as I indicated, that is difficult to do.

So the sensible answer seems to be to require a fAirly heavy cash deposit and then at least there is some reason for the person involved to come back and perhaps face the music knowing that if he can be successful and win his case that 3171

April 30, 1970 Tape 0720 Page 6 he will have his deposit returned. That is the principal provision in the Amendment, Hr. Speaker. We wish to have authority to make regulations prescribing as 1 have said, the am~unts of the deposita and also the amounts of the deposits that may be required to secure in certain instances the re-delivery of certain things seized.

Provision is also made to protect the interest of persons who might have an interest in the things seized, for example, it has occurred that someone as apprehended contravening the Wildlife Act, and it is subsequently found that the vehicle or whatever it happened to be whether a snow-mobile or a truck or a car actually belonged to someone else. Or you have the difficulty that there is a lien on it or there is a mortgage owing on it and we propose in the Act means of meeting that situation. We, also, Hr.

Speaker, and bon. gentlemen opposite will be pleased to know, are providing for a right of appeal, for many forfeiture order made. Hr. Speaker, these are some of the things necessary to be done to bring the Wildlife Act, up to date to provide. some additional flexibility to rule out the possibility of certain injustices and indeed to enable the Act, more effectively to be carried out in terms of imposing penalties and in terms of actaally making the penalty I think, really fit the crime. Hr. Speaker, I move second reading of the Bill. ·MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to speak against the Amendment, with all the force I can summon. It is at~ocious what this amendment asks this House to pass. 3172

April 30th., 1970 Tape no. 721 Page 1 MR. CROSBIE: Now just look, Mr. Speaker, we should look at this amendment to the Wildlife Act, the new Section (10). Now the

section that the Bill proposes to replace is this: "Any Wildlife Officer who has reasonable cause to suspect that any material, implement or appliance bas been used or wildlife taken or killed or possessed, in violation of this Act or of the rep.ulations may, on view, seize the same and upon conviction of any person in respect thereof the same may and in the case of firearms, shells be declared by the convicting magistrate or justices confiscated to the Crown and shall be disposed off as the minister may direct." What does this Bill do'l ··Any Wildlife Officer ,who has reasonable cause to suspect that any material, implement, appliance or thing has been used or any wildlife taken, killed or possessed in violation of the Act or the regulations may, on view, seize the same and it goes on further down to say: without limiting the generality of the foregoing, any gun or firearms, silencer, trap, decoy, snare, light, team wagon, automobile, motor truck or vehicle of any description boat, skiff, canoe or vessel of. any description, airplane, refrigerator or storage locker or container of any description.

Under this amendment, Mr. Speaker, any Wildlife Officer,who bas reasonable cause to suspect that for example, an airplane has been used, in violation of this Act, can seize the airplane or can seize the motor truck or vehicle. And then under other provisions of the amendment, it can be held in any event for three months. It can be held by the Crown ~or three months and then if the Crown has not proceeded with the prosecution, you can get the item back, if they have not proceeded with a prosecution.

Under Subsection (6), the new Section (10), notwithstanding Subsection (5): "Where the ownership of any wildlife paper, document, record, material, implement, appliance or things seized pursuant to Subsection (1), cannot at the time of the seizure be ascertained by the Wildlife Officer by whom the seizure w•s made (that is if the ownership cannot be ascertained) the wildlife paper, 3173

April 30th., 1970 Tape no. 721 Page ·2 document, record, record, material, implement, appliance or thing is: upon the seizure thereof - upon the moment that he takes it in his possession forfeited to Her Majesty in right of the Province. Surely, Mr. Speaker, we do not require a draconian law like that in the Province of Newfoundland for this purpose.

That if a Wildlife Offieer comes upon an airplane, or truck or valuable gun or some other - a refrigerator or storage locker or container and at the time he comes upon it, he does not know who owns it, but he suspects it is being used improperly for hunting, that at the time he seizes-it, it becomes forfeited to the Crown. I consider that to be an extraordinary, a completely extraordinary provision. Yes, in Subsection (8): if no prosecution is taken within three months, then you can get your property back - three months. You may lose your property for three months and you may be innocent. Lose your property, Mr.

Speaker, for three months, your gun, fishing lines, car, truck, plane, refrigerator, storage container. It can be taken under this Act by the Wildlife Officer. You may be completely innocent. He may never lay a charge against you, but you can lose the possession of it for three months. What next? Are we to have no rights left in this Province? Surely, this House is not going to permit that to go by? Now under Section (10): if you know about what has happened, you can, within thirty days, apply by notice in writing to a judge for an order. So if you find out that you have left something in the country, Mr.

Speaker, and the Wildlife Officer does not know who owns ·it and takes ~t, well that is forfeited right then, good bye. The title is now vested in the Crown. However, if they know who you are and you find out about it, within thirty days, you can apply to the judge of the Supreme Court - thirty days after the for~eiture to try to get it back. Let us compare it to the Criminal Code, Mr . Speaker, there is no judicial control over this.

The Wildlife Officer does not have to go to a magistrate or a judge and get a warrant, not at all •• What happens under the Crimindal Code: property can be seized only with a warrant issued by a justice. 3174

April 30th., 1970 Tape no. 721 Page 3 To get a search warrant, the policeman has to satisfy the magistrate, as to its necessity. Then when he .seizes the property, it has to be brought ~efore the judge who exercises his discretion as to how it should be dealt with. The code has a provision that: .. ~ the property seized must be released after three months, if no proceedings are commenced. Now, Mr. Speaker, surely the Crown can come up with these amendments with some better safeguards that what is in this amendment to the Wildlife Act now.

Any Wildlife Officer who has reasonable cause to suspect - well that just means to start with, that he has to suspect you. He suspects that you killed a caribou when you only had a moose licence or that you have tkkan more fish than you should have taken. Game along, take your guns, take your fishing rods, take the car you are in, take the airplane ··_if·.: you are out by a plane, and they can keep that for three months, whether or not you are ever proceeded against. ·That, Mr. Speaker, is not reasonable. This is just not reasonable. He does not even have to come up on you in the act. He just has to suspect.

Now in the amendment that this is replacing: it is cause to suspect that any material, implement, or appliance has been used; that is far more restrictive. That would not cover, in my opinion, a motor vehicle or a truck or an airplane. It is material, implement or appliance that would be the gun or the fishing rod or some implement or appliance or shells.

But this, Act, clearly states without the limit, the generality. of the foregoing, guns, firearms, silencer, trap, decoy, snares, light, team, wagon, automobile, motor truck or vehicle of any description that would be a skidoo, boats, skiff,. canoe, or vessel of any description; airplane, refrigerator, or storage locker or container of any description. Now, Mr. Speaker, if the law is going to provide that all of these kinds of things can be taken from a person who is suspected of violatin~ the Wildlif~ regulations, let us have some better safeguards put in. Let us have the map.istracy brou~ht in to it.

Let us have the Wildlife Officer have to 3175

April 30th., 1970 Tape no. 721 Page 4 apply to a magistrate within three days or within a week to have the magistrate decide what should be done with the property or whether it should be returned or what. This is too draconian, Mr. Speaker, to stand as it is here. It is sava~e. I do not know if it follows what is done in other provinces or not. But, really, I think that this is too much power to put in the hands, valuable property to be put in the hands of any servant of the Government without some judicial restraint put on it. MR. SMALLWOOD (W.R.): Mr.

Speaker, it is not too often that I agree with the member who just sat down, but in this particular case I do. This amendment is going just a little 'teo far. I realize that the Wildlife Officers may have their problems, but1Sir, this is going just a little bit too far altogether. According to this proposed law, a person could have any piece of - anything which could be used or could be confiscated, could be up in a personls cabin, stolen by somebody, used and the person caught in the act.

The person who robbed the piece of equipment whether it was an airplane, whether it was a car, boat, engine, snow machine, would not necessarily know who the ' owner was. It would automatically then be for~eited or if the person was not caught . in the act, if he saw the Wildlife Officer coming, he could make his escape, therefore, the Wildlife Officer would come upon the machine or upon the piece of equipment and not know who the owaer was,_ it would automatically be for~eited, even though it had been stolen in the first place.

Now there is a method, of course, whereby the person, when he finds out his piece of equipment whatever it was , was stolen, can get it back. He can go to the court, the Supreme Court. Now, of course, that is a very cheap place to go to the Supreme Court ·of Newfoundland to get,say, a gun worth $100 back; may be it will cost you $200 to get your gun back, but of course, you have the right. There is an appeal there. You can go t\'ithin thirty days after the piece of equipment has been forfeited to the Crown. You have the ri~ht within 3176

April 30th., 1970 Tape no. 721 Page 5 · thirty days after the piece of equipment has been forfeited to the Crown, and you have the right within thirty days to appeal; that is providing, of course, you found out what happened to the piece of equipment which was stolen. You do, then, have the right to go to the Supreme Court. That is not a cheap process to do.

Now, personally, I go off every winter, every weekend, I go off in the woods on snow machines, and I can ju~t imagine, if I lent my machine to someone and he went off and shot some animal in the winter when he should not have shot i~or some bird and the Wildlife Officer takes that machine, and I am deprived of that machine for three months. They decide not to go ahead for three months, for the full winter, I am deprived of the use of that machine, through no fault of mine, through no negligence of mine. I do not have the right to go in and automatically get it back.

They can keep it for three months and not proceed against anyone and still I cannot necessarily get that machine back. Now, I did suggest earlier when I read this proposed amendment, at least one month or a month and a half ago, at that time, I said that I thought and I still do think that the minister himself - you should have the right t~ go to the minister himself or at least somebody in that department without necessarily having to go to the Supreme Court.

You should be able to satisfy the minister or some deputy minister or somebody in the department without having the trouble and the expense of going to the Supreme Court to get your equipment which back, if you yourself had not used that equipment or whatever it wasAwas taken by the Wildlife Officer. Now the Wildlife Officer only has to have a reasonable cause. Now what is reasonable to the Wildlife Officer is not necessarily reasonable to everyone else and not necessarily reasonable to me.

Somebody can tell him that I have been off in the woods and I have shot some animal or shot some bird or done something which I have not done or anyone and then two weeks later, the Wildlife Officer can come up to my premises and take my machine and go off on just somebody's say so. 3177

April 30th., 1970 Tape no. 121 Page 6 How that would be a reasonable - he would have reasonable cause to believe it, if he were told by somebody that I had done something or that somebody had done something. That would be a reasonable cause, and I could lose the use of my piece of equipment, whatever it was for three months if necessary. They do not have to take it to court, and if they do not take it to court, then after three months, I think I would get it back. But in the meanwhile, I would be deprived of my piece of property for three months. This is just going too far.

I realize that there is a problem which the Wildlife Department bas in people usin~ airplanes, boats, automobiles and in the winter time, snow machines to get off up into the wilderness areas and may be possibly to commit breaches of the Wildlife Act. They have their problems there, but this is going too far to rectify it. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I must rise to agree with the hon. member who just spOke and for that matter, the hon. member for St. John's West and some of the objections they raised to this Bill.

I would hope that we could make some necessary changes in committee that would give the Wildlife Officer certainly the type of legislation that is needed, because his job is not easy and we are now faced 3178

.lape '""' rt.. - J. MR. J. NOLAN: a2e now faced with a situation particularly in this day and age with new roads and so on opening where we have snowmobilies, planes, and I am afraid often times, I feel, that ~ in areas as I have already mentioned in this House, both for St. John's and other centres, people are deprived of hunting and fishing and so on, and often times the best of this type of sport is being made more and more available only to those who can afford it to go in- by plane and so on, and this is something I believe we are going to see more and more of.

But , I would not like to see a.piece of legislation going through here, where all ~ documented in this Bill indicate that this can be conviscated for the period-involved. Now my bon. friend indicated that perhaps it might be possible to appeal to the minister, or the deputy minister, well it depends of course, on the limitation period and where the personz involved is located at the time. They may not find it convenient to get to St. John's to the.minister or the ~pu~yalnister as quickly as maybe required.

I I believe we have got to have sufficient police to make the legisla'tion worth- while, but at the same time let us not go whole hog, and just make the wildlife officer out there who is trying to do the job absolutely useless, and making a laughing stock as he has been in some instances "in the past. Which I think is ~hame, and not fair to the men conerned. But I2certainly would like to see, and in very many instances, I mean it is a joke. I know of people who come in, you know saying what they have been getting away with f~om the wildlife officers and this that and the other thing.

And to me it is ~hame, I must say I would like to see greater consideration given to this Bill, and by all means an attempt to make the necessary improvements, but let us not destroy it. MR. SMALLWOOD: I would like to say a word in Jour Honour's behalf, on this Bill. Your Honour, of course, Your Honour is in the Chair dare not express any opinion, you have o~ly-to~sit- and listen to the opinions expressed. But your Honour must be brusting, over the fears that have been raised by the bon. member for Green Bay. Because, like him, Your Honour is a skidoo specialist~ "buff" is that the word?

A skidoo buff, I was never called a buff, myself. A skidoo fiend, and the thought of losing a skidoo, having 3179

nt'L . .&..&. JVL&&e ..LJ#U . 'J.ape /l2 MR. SMALLWOOD: it taken for a whole winter, and especially these recent winters, when you do not get enough snow long enough, and you get men leaving all the way from St.

John's by truck with their skidoo stowed in the back and going out as far as Gambo, parking their trucks on the side PK - 2 of the road an~ getting the skidoo out and off for fifty or a hundred miles out in the centre of the Island, and coming back, with business neglected with everything neglected back here, so they can just enjoy themselves out in the snow, this is the right of a free born British subject. And this is the sort of thing that Your Honour I know whats.

Unfortunately for my desire to speak for Your Honour I happen to be a member of the Government, which means that this is my Bill, it is the Bill of every member for the Government who are stuck with it, if that is the right word. But, however we have this consolation, we know that in Committee of the Whole, the bon. and generous and fair minded minister will be happy to receive suggestions, as will every bon. minister. Suggestions for improving and liberalizing, especially liberalizing the legislation which what the ·House might reasonably expect from a Liberal Government.

I support- the Bill, I will give it my vote, when the vote is taken on second reading, and I will do it all the more readily and happily knowing that I will be able to suggest an amendment, everybody in the House expect the minister, he is not permitted under the ruled to amend his own Bill. But he can get one of his colleagues or one of his opponents or he can get anyone, any member of the House to suggest an amend, and I fancy there will be some sensible amendments made to it. But in the meantime, I do support the second reading of this Bill. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, whether this is ~liberalized Bill, or Liberal Legislation, or whatever it is, I find myself in complete accord with the sentiments expressed by the bon. member for Green Bay, and because of the sentiments he has expressed obviously I have to vote against it, and he has to vote against it. This ,JHl;·.J.k. Speaker, cannot, I submit cannot be cured by an amendment in committee. Because the whole guts of this Bill, the whole purpose an4 intention of this Bill is to grant unto the wildlife officer the 3180

Apr11 ~utn. 1~1u Tape 722 PK - 3 MR. HICKMAN: right where be bas reasonable cost to suspect to seize automobiles, motor trucks, canones, .boats, refrigerators, storage lockers, aeroplanes, and snowmobilies, and almost ~ything that could be remotely connected, even a refrigerator that could be remotely connected with bunting wild game and ~ildlife in Newfoundland. That is what this Bill is all about. That is the whole guts of this Bill, now if you amend that section, that in effect in a new Bill. And I say, Mr.

Speaker, that there is just no way to amend that Bill to make it into a p~ece of legislation that would be acceptable by decent Newfoundlanders, who like the outdoor life. And I can tell by the expression on Mr. Speaker's face, that he hopes that the assistant deputy speaker will be in the Chair to enable Mr. Speaker to vote against this piece of legislation, this initimate piece of legislation, if it should ever come to a vote. !ow 1 Mr. Speaker, there are two other items in this Bill that have been referred to very ably by the bon. the member for Green Bay and the bon. the min'tster·•for St.

John's South, and the bon. the member for St. John's West. The other is."where the ownership cannot be ascertained, then it is forfeited to Her Majesty the Crown~ that again is a pretty restricted piece of legislation, Mr. Speaker. Then we come to the last tottiiOua procedure where some peo~ : _ fellow who through no fault of his own finds that his refrigerator out in his country house has been used to put a couple ' of pounds of moose in, that he knows nothing about.

Be then has to take,.....it is a wonder the house is not in it,.- that is about the only thing that is left out, although container of any discription might be broat$.teven to cover summer cottage, if it was used to store moose meat. And having found that, and having been the innocent victim, then he can if he has the money, or alternatively if he wants to apply for legal aid, he can then take the tortuous route of going to the Supreme Court,tn all his innocence, now remember he is innocent from the very beginning, to have this reatored to him. Mr.

Speaker this will be a very good test for bon. members freedom on both sides of this Rouse. It is obvious, that this cannot be, this Bill cannot be amended to make it a decent piece of legislation, a piece of legislation exceptable to Newfoundlanders. But take it, it might be all right 3181 I •

April 30th. 1970 Tape 722 PK - 4 MR. HICKMAN: for a fellow, I do not want to be unkind to St. John's Centre, but a fellow living in St. John's Centre who does not have the same opportunity as we have in the truly outport district of getting out and roaming around the country , be it in Burin or Green Bay or some of our oth~r truly outport districts, it does not catch on the way it does in Burin,._\ ., I could keep this Bouse all night, if he wants me to list all the places in Burin that I went from on bicycle from day to day HR. CALLAHAN: •••••• Bare foot boy. MR.

HICKMAN: I know I cannot, I do not want to spare you, Jou would not understand it. The bon. the minister does not even know where he is going to put a community to pasture inDantzic Point. Until I told him, he thought it was the corridor between East and West Germany, which shows that he has a tremendous knowledge of outport Newfoundland. Well. I happen to be fortunate enough to have spent about eighteen years, you know. before I ever saw the bright lights, ever saw St John's or Corner Brook. KR.'liiWELLS: Be careful of the manner in,:·which you talk about Comer Brook. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, this Bill cannot be amended to make it acceptable to Newfoundlanders. It cannot be amended, The principle of the Bill, .if you amend the offensive paragraph. the offensive

section which is

section 10 of th~ Bill, that takes the Bill, you might as well tear it up. MR. CROSBIE: What one? MR. HICKMAN: Ten 0 ten. MR. CROSBIE: The whole of ten. MR. HICKMAN: The whole of ten, and again the whole of five. These two, or actually it is not the whole of ten. it is

section four, to amend this Bill to make it acceptable to Newfoundlanders, you have to amend four and four is ~he guts of the Bill, it is the whole principle of the Bill, and this is the time for all good men to come to the aid of those who go out in the country and enjoy wildlife. Take the bon. Minister of Education where he has out in Grand Falls a Rod and Gun Club, who would hit the roof, if they ever find out about this piece of legislation. He baa got a very agonizing decision to make. Be has to put the right and the belief and the wishes of 3182

tape 722 . PK - 5 MR. HICKMAN: his rod and gun people, and all the people in Central Newfoundland up against party discip~ine. And with an election any day he has got a very, very agonizing decision. Add this will point up once and for all to the people of Grand Falls, as to where there member stands. I know where he is going to stand, he is going to join with the bon. the member for Green Bay. He is left? If he was here and vote;against this Bill. And the bon. member for St. John's North MR. ROWE, F.W. I ask this question, Mr. Speaker, sincerely because I was MR.

HICKMAN: You were not here, ~ .·--_~::: •:.:·,, _ _,__ '· MR. ROlm:F.W. I regretfully was not here. MR. HIC~urn: You will have to go to your seat before he can ask the question. MR. ROWE: I am in my own seat, no? I am not. I will haYe to go to my own seat? MR. HICKMAN: Yes. MR. ROWE: F.W. Mr. Speaker, the question I want to ask is this, I understand there are some objections, and I understand somebody else objected as well. Are these objections of a kind, or are they complantive a kind of they cannot be remedied in committee? MR. HICKMAN: They cannot •. :.The whole objection, if the bon. minister will look at

section 4, that is this piece of legislation. The rest of it is administrative practice following the implementation of

section four. And there is only one way you can amend

section four, and that is to delete it. If you delete it, you have deleted the Bill, Mr •. Speaker. And for that reason I cannot support it, and I would be awfully surprised if anyone on the Government side, other than the bon. the minister votes for it. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I would hope that regardless of where one might sit in this House, he will ' be able to express his own views in terms of this particular Bill. I have a lot of sympathy for the minister in this particular regard, because I believe that he has tremendous problems in trying to do an effective_policing job where wildlife is concerned.

And I would also suspect Mr. Speaker~ that possibly the people he has in mind here are people from the 3183

MR. COLLINS: Canadian mainland, and the United States, who fly into Labrador, who fly into very remote areas of Newfoundland by airplane, people who come in and set up in cabins, and use snow-toboggans and so on and so forth, I am not including you Sir, in this particular category. But I suspect these are the people who the minister is trying to get even with, and I admire him for that. Not get even with them, but to fine them, and take their airplanes, and take their houses back in Connecticut,if you got to take their houses in Connecticut.

And take their cars in New Brunswick, if you have to take their cars in New Brunswick. I am all in favour with that. But I would not like to see, the provisions of this Bill applied to the ordinary Tom, Dick and Harry along the Gander Bay, and Carmanville and Lumsden and all the bays in Newfoundland, and because of the high price of meats which we are experiencing in Newfoundland, sometimes he might find himself having to stretch the law just a little wee bit, and take a chance and possibly get another rabbit or an extra partridge or something along this line. I would hope that you have·not got that man in mind.

I would hope that you would possibly have your wildlife officer almost turned around and look the other way,with this type. But certainly if it"is meant to put peace in the law, to prohibit those so-called millionaries who come into Newfoundland and rape our wild