Manitoba Hansard — 11 May 1979 (Sitting 59B, 31st Legislature, 3rd Session)

31-3-59b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542 -549 2 Third Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 28 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL XXVII No. 598 2:30 P.M. Friday, May 11, 1979 Office of the Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

Time: 2:30 p.m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, May 11, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. JORGENSON: It is my intention to inte rrupt proceedings at this stage for His Honour , the Lieutenant-Governor . MR. CHAIRMAN: Call in the Speaker. IN SESSION ROYAL ASSENT DEPUTY-SERGEANT-AT-ARMS (Mr. Myron Mason): His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor. His Honour , F.L. Jobin , Esquire , Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Manitoba, having entered the House and being seated on the Throne , Mr. Speaker addressed His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor in the following words : MR.

SPEAKER: May it please Your Honour, The Legislative Assembly, at its present session , passed several Bills, which in the name of the Assembly , I present to Your Honour and to which Bills I respectfully request Your Honour's Assent. MR. DEPUTY CLERK: No. 4 -

An Act to amend The Testators Family Maintenance Act. No. 5

An Act to amend The Criminal Injuries Compensation Act. No. 8 -

An Act to amend The Mental Health Act. No. 9 -

An Act to amend The Crown Lands Act and The Real Property Act. No. 11

An Act to amend The Provincial Judges Act. No. 12

An Act to amend The Corporations Act . No. 15

An Act to amend The Garnishment Act. No. 21

An Act to amend The Real Property Act (2). MR. CLERK: In Her Majesty's name His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor doth assent to these Bills . MR. SPEAKER: We, Her Majesty 's most dutiful and faithful subjects, the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba in session assembled, approach Your Honour with sentiments of unfeigned devotion and loyalty to Her Majesty's person and Government , and beg for Your Honour the acceptance of this Bill: Bill No. 52 -

An Act for Granting to Her Majesty Certain Further Sums of Money for the Public Service of the Province for the Fiscal Year Ending the 31st Day of March, 1980. MR. CLERK: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor doth thank Her Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects, accepts their benevolence and assents to this Bill in Her Majesty's name. MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed , I should like to draw the honourable members ' attention to the gallery, where we have as our guests some 20-odd members of the Canada Wheat Committee , under the Chairmanship of Mr. Chad Bark and Mr. Claude Furnette.

These gentlemen come from all across Canada ; from the Maritimes , Eastern Canada , the Prairies , the Pacific, and the Territories. On behalf of all the honourable members , we welcome you here this afternoon. We also have 28 students of the Garry High School from Minnesota, under the direction of Merion Meyers, as well as 75 students of Grade 5 and 6 standing from the Grosvenor High School, under the direction of Miss Chod irk er. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for 4123

Friday, May 11, 1979 Crescentwood . On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon . The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, for your convenience, I wonder if it would be agreeable to my honourable friends if we could adjourn now and the House would then continue in the Committee of Supply, until 4:30 p.m ., on the understanding that there will be no Private Members ' Hour, and I believe that that is the agreement. Mr. Speaker , I move , seconded by the Minister responsible for Telephones, that the House do now adjourn.

MOTION presented and carried and the House adjourned and stands adjourned until 2:30 p.m . on Mond ay, but resumes immediately in Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the ChairS for Labour and Manpower and the Honourable Member for Emerson in the :-- Chair for the Attorney-General. . SUPPLY - ATTORNEY-GENERAL MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee come to order . Page 13, Resolution 14, 1.(

a) Minister's Salary - the Honourable Minister . MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , with respect to the discussion we were having earlier this morning about Inspectors , etc ., I have now found the information I requested from the Chairman of the Liquor Control Commission , with respect to suspensions , etc. , inspectors . I wish to tell you he's advissd me that although there was a considerable turnover in the personnel of the Chief Inspector's Department during 1976 and 1977, there was no real reduction in the number of personnel during the first nine months of the fisca l period .

The reduction from 25 members to 21 was for a period of approximately three months only. So with the few exceptions , we believe licencees in general have applied better supervision and control over their operations . The improvement could be attributed to the fact that over the past few years members of the Chief Inspector 's Department have been involved with conducting lectures on The Liquor Control Act , regulations and Commission policies with licencees and their staff on the licenced premises .

This , together with more aggressive action and policing by the police , as well as the inspectors of various licenced premises , has , in our opinion , led to an improvement in the liquor situation . Mr. Chairman , I believe the report fact of the inspectors for 1977 and for 1978, does refer to the ongoing seminars , etc., and instructions with licencees . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WAUUNG: Thank you, Mr. Chairman .

Just before I go on , I'd like to ask the Minister why he hasn 't taken the opportunity to have the Chairman or someone else from the Board present to be able to advise him of these facts and assist him with information from the Committee , since he knew last night that we would be on his Salary today ; he knew at 12:30, when we adjourned , that we would be coming back to this subject. MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr .

Chairman , the advice I've received , frankly , was at this stage that general practices on Salary is that no administrators attend when that discussion takes place ; it's more of a general discussion, and that's been the practice now. Certainly if the member had indicated to me any preference for my having Mr. Teillet here , I would have been happy to do so. MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . To the extent that I was in error in not requesting of the Minister that he did have the Chairman with him , then I will take the blame for that.

The Minister says quite rightly that usually when a Minister 's salary is being discussed that no members of the staff are present , and that is perfectly true . There is one distinct differenc e though in this particular case , and that is that this is the only opportunity that members of the Committee get to debate with the Minister and seek answers to questions on the Liquor Control Commission . This is one area that does not come to a standing committee of the House .

Since there is no appropriation to the Commission , there is no entry in the Minister's department for it, and it has been the practice over prev ious years . 1 understand , that when we get to the Minister 's salary that a number of questions are asked on this matter . If the Minister felt some reticence about having a member of his staff present , I'm sure that all members of this side would have been most happy to give our consent and approval , although 4124

Friday, May 11, 1979 I'm sure it wouldn't be necessary . In any case, the Chairman or anyone else would not need the permission of this side of the House to sit in one of the chairs that are made available for the public and hence would be very close and readily available for any que stions that the Minister migh t have. I did ask the Minister this mornin g if he could tell me what the full complement of the Chie f Inspector's Department is, and he said he would attempt to get that information for me. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the complemen t has varied.

As of March 31, 1976, there were 17 inspectors, plus 6 office personnel being maintained consistently; as of March 31st, '77, 20 inspectors; then I'm advised by the Chairman that the former Chairman started a hold on the employment of inspectors in order to assess the Chief Inspector's Department because he was concerned with possible overstaffing , and that was continued by Mr. Tiellet for about one year , and the number of inspectors as of March 31st, '78 dropped to 14 as of March 31st this year. They're now back up to their full complement as of March 31st, '79 of 19.

The decline that took place I'm advised was a gradual decline through resignations and retirements . MR. WALDING: Is the Ministe r telling the Committee that the full complement of inspection staff in the Inspector 's office is 19? MR. MERCIER: Yes, as of March 31st , '79. MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Is the Minister able to tell us with regard to the level of inspections for the year, for the year, or the calendar 1978, or 1977-78, whether there has been more emphasis on occasional permits as far as the Inspectors are concerned and less on hotels and other establishments, or has the reverse been true, or has it remained the same? MR. MERCIER: From 1977 to 1978, there was a significant increase in inspections from 1,771 on hotels to 2,379; with respect to occasional permits, there was an increase of investigations from 809 to 994.

It was, during the calendar year 1978, that I indicated, in view of comments from the RCMP, my concern and their concern about abuses of alcohol regulations and occasional permits, and it would appear that in addition to the City of Winnipeg core area, an investigation of occasional permits should become a priority of the Commission . MR. WALDING: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . And I assume that the min ister's policy decision was carried out and that the Inspectors did concentrate more on the occasional permits and less on to other establishments. Can the minister confirm that? MR.

MERCIER: That should be what's happening, yes. MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . The minister told me this morning that, despite a drop in the number of Inspectors, that the number of inspections had remained the same, or approximately thereabouts. I did a little bit of research over the lunch hour, and I'd like to give the minister some figures, again taken from the Chief Inspector's Report. In 1977, there were 24,000 inspections in 1978, there were 20,000 inspections. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I apologize to the member if I misled him; I was going from memory what I thought was advice from the Commission, and I, too, compared those reports over the lunch hour, and agree that the figures that the member has just indicated, are the correct ones. MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . And just for my informat ion, I wonder if the minister could explain to me what the difference is between inspections, inspection-assists and various investigations by the staff of the Inspector's Department? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I'd have to accept that as notice and enquire into the specifics of that question for the member. I don 't know whether Inspection Assists refers to assisting the police . It should be noted that their use from 1977 to 1921 - there was a significant reduction in that area comparing the figures of inspection assists. Pardon me, between 1977 and 1978 -(Interjection)- Yes. 4125

Friday, May 11, 1979 MR. WALI>ING: And similarly for the topic, Various Investigations , it went down from 1,400 to 700 . MR. MERCIER: Those would appear to be a miscellaneous type of investigations but I will obtain more detailed information for the member , Mr. Chairman . MR. WALUING: Mr. Chairman to refer back for a moment to the Minister 's comments about his increased importance on the policing of occasional perm its. I'd like to quote from the Chief Inspector 's Report from the 1977 year where the Assistant Commissioner of " D" Division , Royal Canadian Mounted Police , states in his report, in the

summary thereof : " The main continuing problem is adequate policing of social events held under authori ty of an Occasional Permit and the transportation of large quantities of liquor into isolated areas . A noted increase of enforcement by LCC Inspectors has been observed and hopefully will help control the social functions ." Now there is no similar reference in the Commissioner's Report for this year.

Would that indicate to the Minister and to the Commission that it is now no longer a problem now that the Inspectors have concentrated more on those Occasional Permits and less on the hotels and other establishments? MR. MERCIER: I don't think so, Mr. Chairman, I think it's been a continuing problem for a number of years .

I think in 1978 the RCMP took the opportunity to note the decrease in related offences during the strike that summer and I suppose from year-to -year they try to highlight one particular subject but I don 't take that to mean that there is any less concern by the RCMP over social functions under Occasional Permits. MR. WALDING: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . Is the matter of social functions under Occasional Permits still a priority with the Minister and with the Commission? MR. MERCIER: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. WAU>ING: Mr.

Chairman , I refer the honourable minister again to the Chief Inspector 's Report , and the Assistant Commissioner of 'D' Division , who says in his report this year something that doesn 't appear for the previous two years , where they are expressing concern about occasional permits.

This comes under the heading of the Thompson Subdivision , where the Commissioner says, that " violations of the regulations appear quite frequent with little concern shown by management." And he goes on, " when violations are pointed out to the hotel management , a strong resentment and general lack of co-o peration is sensed ." He goes on further , " on several occasions deceit has even been practised by the hotel management. " That's on Page 8 of the Chief Inspector 's Report.

Given that particular reference this year , were it not appearing in previous years , and I ask the minister first of all whether that is an isolated incidence in the province , and that it's only around Thompson that the hotel management resent the police inspections and show a general lack of co-operation and are practising deceit , or is that a widespread occurrence within the province ? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , as the Report indicates in the next sentence , the two hotels involved ·- are the La Salle Hotel at Grand Rapids , and the new Silver Leaf Hote l in Wabowden .

Upon receipt of this Report I requested further details from the RCMP with respect to this matter , and have received their response which indicates the problem was confined to the se hotels , and not to the general Thompson area . These two hotels are within the Thompson Subdivision . MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , I noted that the two hotels were named and I really saw no point in doing so at this meeting, that my question to the minister was not whether these sorts of violations were common in the Thompson area , but as to whether they were common throughout Manitoba .

I mean , are these typical of the sorts of problems that inspectors , both civ ilian and police , are meeting in their inspections of these establishments? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , as I recollect the response from the RGMP, that the problem related to hotel management, and a turnover of inexperienced management at these two sites - that the hotels had difficulty getting people in apparently to manage the hotels . They were not experienced . 1 can , Mr. Chairman , undertake to get out the response from the RCMP that I received relative to this matter , and discuss it with the Member for St.

Vital , the response from the RCMP indicates it was a peculiar problem related to these hotels and inexperienced management. 4126

Friday, May 11, 1979 MR. WALDING: No further questions. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , further to the comments from the Member for St. Johns earlier today, and his comments relative to further controls for the public, relative to gambling within the Province of Manitoba. As I went over that area of Hansard over the lunch hour , that discussion we had related more to one just related to investigative staff available to the Lotteries Licensing Board. Perhaps I could take a few moments and refer the Member for St.

Johns, firstly to the Summa ry of Recommendations from the Haig Report from approximately Page 251 right through to the end 256 , and I raise this not because they 're just recommendations from the Haig Report , but because they are recommendations which are being considered by the Lotteries Licensing Board, and with which the Lotteries Licensing Board in general concur and are proceeding to attempt to implement. And in doing so I point out that Mr.

Haig did travel to Alberta , B.C., Saskatchewan and Ontario to review their controls over this kind of gambling, and on the basis of that experience as set out in the Report, steps to be taken, I think basically to control the operation of bingo licences, and the kind of equipment that can be used, the kind of cards: it goes on with respect to gambling casinos - to point out the necessity for control and management of moneys for casino equipment ideally to be owned by one organization within the province ; licensees to appoint specific persons responsible, they would have to be approved by the Lotteries Licensing Board; qualified persons to operate the banks and the money, the cashiers, all of these people have to be approved by the Lotteries Licensing Board ; independent games managers, who must conduct training sessions for people to work in the casino, all game managers, pit supervisors, pit bosses and dealers must be persons who've made application to and been approved in general by the Board , approved by police authorities ; and it goes on to set out a number of other detailed considerations .

The Lotteries Licensing Board has considered this Report and discussed this with me and they generally concur with the recommendation that all equipment to be used in a blackjack casino should be obtained from a company within the Province of Manitoba; are working on a procedure whereby the equipment would be owned by perhaps the Red River Exhibition , the same equipment utilized by everyone . They recommend that only residents of Manitoba be eligible to work in a casino . The people must be licensed and belong to the organization. Experienced and qualified people must be involved.

The system of training and of qualification and licensing of dealers , pit bosses, supervisors and cashiers should be put into effect. What I can do, Mr. Chairman, is provide the Member for St. Johns with a letter, which is being sent out to all of the applicants - I think I mentioned some 32 to 40 people whose applications had been received by the Board and had been held pending approval of a policy - and the Lotteries Licensing Board has sent out this letter to all of the applicants and describes the kind of infor mation they want from the applicants before they consider their application for approval.

It goes on to set out guidelines indicating the general duties and requirements in the conduct and management of a blackjack casino. I think the Member for St. Johns might wish to review this very detailed information at his leisure might prove to be of some assistance. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood had indicated before the Member for St. Johns. The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Well, I'll defer to my colleague . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Johns . MR. CHERNIACK: I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. The danger is you get off on various tangents and I'd like to fit back in.

I want to tell the Attorney-General that he has somewhat redeemed himself by doing some homework over the lunch hour and I do appreciate the fact that he made the effort and is responding I think in a substantial way. I too read Hansard and I saw it only dealt with half a staff man year for half an inspector and I'm not sure just how that happened - an inspector can move around - but that's just a wisecrack. Mr. Chairman, I will read this letter. I think that it will probably answer quite a bit of my questions. I'd like therefore to just confirm some impressions I've just rece ived .

Firstly, I am assuming from what the Minister said, that what our recommendations in the Haig Report referred to - is it pages 251 and onward? - are now policy? MR. MERCIER: Yes, in perhaps not every detail, Mr. Chairman , but in yes. general 4127

Friday, May 11, 1979 MR. CHEFINIACK: And that means then , to me, that every person who physically handles a gambling devise is licensed . . . who is control of gambling devises - I assume, in blackjack as I recall it, there's a dealer and a number of bettors . The bettors of course , are not licensed because they're the ones who lose their money. But it's the dealer who helps them lose their money and I would assume then that he must be licensed , having pased some kind of test. MR. MERC:::IER: Well, Mr.

Chai rm an, this is exactly what will be implemented ; agreement that a system of training and qualification and licensing be put into effect , have to app ly to re-qualify each year , so that's what is attempted to be implemented . MR. CHEFINIACK: That 's impor tant to me. The next question is: since I believe that all gamble rs are losers in the long run, are they informed in some intelligent way what the odds are, what is the likelihood of their losses? And I mean it specifically ; do they know tha t the odds might be 6 to 5 or whatever they are , in their gambling ?

Is there some information , just like in the handling of liquor , in every cigarette package now , that people are informed of the risk they are taking? You 're free to do as you like , but at least you should know what you 're doing to yourself. And I'd like to know , as I think is done in some of the places where gambl ing is legal , that there are actually notices , either pamphlets handed out to gamblers or notices on the walls saying : The odds on this contraption are something like, well, are within a certain degree of percentage loss , so the people know .

To me, that's the kind of information governments should be suie people have available , otherwise what are we controlling if we're giving the impression that we're controlling the honestly and integrity and legality of gambling? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , the Haig Report does talk in a general discussion about odds . There 's been no suggestion that odds be posted or warnings . I think the fact of the matter is, I'm not aware of any casino and blackjack operation that is being held where the sponsor , the operating organization, has lost money . If the member wishes, I can run over the profits.

In '77, the profits from the Red River Exhibition were $113 ,000; Festival du Voyageur $50 ,700; Provincial Exhibition at Brandon $5,429. In 1978, the Festival du Voyageur 's net profit was $87,435 ; Red River Exhibition $119,955 ; Rusalka Dancers $127 ,538 ; Joseph Wolinsky Collegiate $81 ,835 ; the Manitoba Theatre Centre $ ·18,049 .00. Outside the city , the Biandon Provincial Exhibition netted $3,779; and their major casino held in June netted $7,337 ; the Portage Industrial Exhibition netted $510 ; and the Dauphin Agricultural Society at Carman had a loss of $657.02.

That's the only one I'm aware of that suffered a loss , so I would say, Mr. Chairman, that obviously any bettor in a casino blackjack operation , certainly the odds are that the operators are going to make money . MR. CHE:RNIACK: I thank the Minister for asking a question that I was going to ask , and hadn 't gotten around to yet , and that is to indicate the substantia l moneys that are being lost by gamblers in this province under the legal betting system .

And what the Minister has done , is confirmed my statement that gamblers are losers , and that those who operate the gambling establ ishments are the winners . They help the losers lose money , and the figures given by the Minister support that the important thing is, that at least those losings , which become great benefits are being directed not into the pockets of private enterprisers , but are directed to assist in cultural or charitable organizations .

I think that word "charitable " doesn 't belong ; I think that the charitable are not of that type . included as much as cultural , educational and others And that , of course, is the only justification I know of, that puts government into the - I was going to say sponsorship, it's not really sponsoring but permitting the carrying on of what otherwise would be considered illegal , and which to my own personal feelings is highly immoral.

Nevertheless , I would like to s 1,1 gg~st tg UH') ty1iris~ ~ r . tllet h9Yirtg hacl an opportunity to glanca through this letter , which he has handed to me, that I'd like him to think about the warning that I don 't think is very effective . I have to admit that , as I'm watching the Minister smoking his cigarette , and knowing that the package he took the cigarette from, tells him that he is flirting with very serious conseq uences , that maybe it wouldn 't help an awful lot to tell a gamb ler that he is taking a chance and will probably lose.

You know , I have to say that I think that gambling is not as bad a threa t to the future as this smoking of the cigarette , from which the Province makes much more money . Of course, the Province is not making money out of gambling , except through lotteries . I\IIR. MERCIER: Oh, the member did acknowledge that the government is making money . MR. CHERNIACK: I said through lotteries , I assumed the government is not making money through these games of chance. It of course has always traditionally made money out of horse racing and 4128

Friday, May 11, 1979 for some peculiar reason the sport of kings, as it is called, which I think is another wrong situation in our society, nevertheless takes off from the gambling pots certain moneys which become reven ue for the province . I would like to think that the Minister will take into consideration for the future a policy which is designed to dissuade people who gamble, from gambling excessively . I mean by that beyond their means and that one of those means would be to keep them well informed of the long range cost to them of the gambling they do.

I have too many friends who come back from Las Vegas and say, while I was a winner again, and you really have to force them to give a complete accounting to admit that they only report their winnings and not their losings and that if they reported losses, I mean, and if they reported both they woul d be loosers . So I think I'm through asking questions in relation to gambling other than to ask what income is received from this particular gambling institution of the Lotteries Commission, which is being authorized to spend some $58 ,000 .00?

What off-setting income is there to make sure that Manitobans are not subsidizing th is operation? MR. MERCIER: The Estimate of Revenue from the Lotteries Licensing Board is $215 ,000 which I would suggest is perhaps a low estimate. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I said tha t I would conclude with asking a question and now the Min ister is giving me information I didn't have and now I c!m shocked. Are we really operating this Board for revenue purposes, and I would call it revenue if we're making $200,000 plus dollars and spending $58,000? Is my arithmetic wrong? I'd like to be corrected quickly. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, that is the amount shown for the Lotteries Licensing Board is $58,100.00 . The estimate of revenue is $215 ,000. Now I would think , and this hasn't been done, you would have to consider as part really the additional costs of operating the Lotteries Licensing Board , the necessary police funct ions and assistance that is rendered to the Lotteries Licensing Board. The costs of other administrative staff who are involved in part of their time in the review of the Lotteries Licensing Board .

What I am saying is I don't think $58 ,100 is the total cost of operating the Manitoba Lotteries Licensing Board, that within administration and within law enforcemnt there are probably areas that could be assigned to the cost of operating the Lotteries Licensing Board . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, since I believe that a government program should not be financed out of gambling , and I admitted already openly that government programs are being financed by tobacco users , which by the same token not to be something I'm opposed to and yet I've said on another occasion that I was directly involved in increasing taxation revenue from tobacco users , I think that it would be helpful if the Minister were able, not now but by next year, to have a proper breakdown to justify the revenue from the Lotteries Commission or Lotteries Board , being in excess of the cost to government and justify that as a policy matter and saying yes we do want to use gambl ing revenues of this kind as general income.

Because if it is designed that the fees - I assume they are fees - are set to offset the expenditure then there's no problem in my mind . If they are designed to bring in revenue then we can debate the revenue . We may want to suggest that we make more money out of that kind of a thing.

I personally would like to think we would make less, bearing in mind that we make money out of horse racing, and that we don't make money out of the Lotteries but indeed we are gradually starting to change the original approach to the fun money from Lotteries being directed to recreational , cultural, charitable, is now becoming more and more part of the program of government to the extent that government takes credit now for programs which are being financed out of Lottery revenue , and I say more and more, it started under the previous government, but the new government has gleefully , I th ink , accepted the concept of taking credit for directing moneys that come from Lottery proceeds into various programs .

So I'd like to have from the Minister , not necessarily now , I'm not pushing for that although I think the Minister should have Boards available , especially in the case of the Liquor Commission to advise him , but I'd like to know the fee structure or the revenue structure as to how the $215,000 is arrived at. And I th ink that for the future this revenue and expenditure should be set up in such a way that it is clearly known what are the costs and what are the income in connection with this. And now, Mr.

Chairman, since I expect the Minister will agree, and if he doesn't I can't force him to, I want to move back to liquor unless the Minister has a comment to make on, or anyone else wants to make on lotteries. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , I can indicate to the Member for St. Johns that the Licensing Board is reviewing their present fee structure , at the present time, and I think it would be a useful exercise 4129

Friday, May 11, 1979 for them to attempt to determine the full cost of their operation . Not just the cost within their Department but other services that they call upon, and that will be occurring in the next few months . MR. CHEI~NIACK: Two points then, Mr. Chairman. Will a report of that nature be made public at least to the extent of assuming we won 't be in session , and I don 't think we will be, that we could get a report sent to MLAs . That's one question .

The other one is, has the Minister agreed to take into consideration my proposal of studying ways and means to info rm the unaware gambler of the risk he takes in terms of the lossess that he shoul d expect to suffer . MR. MERCIER: As I was saying , Mr. Chairman , there is a reference to odds in the Haig report , there's no recommendat ion . I could ask the Lotteries Licensing Board to review that aspec t. With respect to fees , any changes in the operation of the Board or their fee structure has to be approved by way of Order-in-Council. So that would most certainly be a public document. MR.

CHEI~NIACK: What I was getting at is the estimated income and the estimated expenditures , to sort of see how they balance out or if they don 't; that 's what I mean , which would not appea r in the Order-in-Council. MR. MERCIER: I can make that information available , Mr. Chairman . MR. CHERNIACK: I thank the Minister for that , Mr. Chairman . Now I'd like to go back to the question of the Liquor Commission and tell the Minister that I was quite disturbed this morning when I heard the figures . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR.

MER:CIER: If I might , there were some questions that gave some information prior to the Member for St. Johns , I think , r eturning to the Committee , that I might repeat that might be of some assistance. This morning I recollected a letter and I have found the letter from Mr.

Teillet that he sent to me as a result of the articles that appeared in the newspaper with respect to the Commiss ion 's Annual Repo rt, and in his letter he indicated to me, although there was a considerable turnover in the personnel of the Chief Inspector 's Department during 1976 and 1977 there was no real reduction in the number of personnel during the first nine months of the fiscal period. The reduction of 25 members to 21 was for a period of approximately three months only , and with a few exceptions we believe licensees, in general , have applied better supervision and control over their operations.

The improvement could be attributed to the fact that over the past few years members of the Chief Inspector 's Department have been involved with conducting lectures on The Liquor Control Act regulations and Commission policies with licensees and their staff on the licensed premises . This , together with more aggressive action in policing by the pol ice, as well as the Inspectors at various licensed premises has, in our opinion , led to an improvement in the liquor situation .

Both the report for 1977 and the report for 1978 do refer to this continuing program of lectures and seminars with licensees and their staff , which Mr. Teillet attributes , in part , to a reduction in violations. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , I am glad the Attorney-General interrupted me and gave me that information before I launched into my remarks , and I hope that that report is accurate and will be supported in future years . 1 must say, Mr.

Chairman , that I think once in the last eight or ten years I attended one of those gala functions of hotel owners invitation to MLAs, and once was enough for me, and partly because I felt that I was being attacked on all sides because of the fact that Frank Syms was too tough and the hotelkeepers , with whom I had the doubtful pleasure of dining on that occasion made me feel that they were very hard done by because of Frank Syms ' tough polic ies. And may 1 say in passing, Mr.

Chairman , that I believe that Frank Syms was one of the few political appointments of the previous government and that he turned out , I think , to be an excellent person as Chairman of the Liquor Commission and I was supportive of him in various ways . One of them was in the pricing policy , which ensured lower profits and therefore lower markups and lower prices on beer and on table wines , as compared with hard liquor . I think there is a trend to reverse that , which I regret. And also I think that he was pretty tough on the requirements of hotelkeepers, and I think that that was justified , too . 4130

Friday, May 11, 1979 For example, every time I see a person who appears to be inebriated carrying a case of beer under his or her arm I feel that there is probably a charge which should be laid against the person that put that case of beer under the arm of the inebriated person who is stumbling along. And you see it very often, and I do think that one of the incid ents that occurs frequently is the continuing of serving of alcoholic spirits to people who have already had too much.

And that, of course, applies in private residences, as well, but at least the re they can be put to bed quietly in a corne r of the room. So I was concerned to think that in the cha nge of administration and in the change of the Board that there might be a lessening of the tough role that had been played with the providers of liquor, and it may well be that Mr. Teillet's statement will be proven to be correct; I certainly hope so because the bare statistics of the reduction in charges and the reduction in inspectors would tend to indicate the opposite .

Having made those comments, I want to go on to a different aspect, and if the Minister wants to respond to it, by all means . . . No, he doesn't want to respond so I will move on to the next item , which is a small item, but interesting, that here this Minister was part of a Cabinet which spent, I believe, a lot of time considering the increase in minimum wage. And to me it was peculiar that they should zero in on one type of employment where they kept the minimum wage at the previous level, and that is the people who serve liquor at retail. I really couldn't understand it.

And we're not in receipt of all briefs presented to the government, I'm sure. I happen to have a recent brief, very recent, from the Restaurant and Food Service to a government, requesting an elimination of sales tax on meals consumed in restaurants, but I am not aware that they made any special plea for keeping minimum wage at a lower level than that of other employed people . I'm wondering if the Minister could indicate the justification for that . MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I really think that is a question that would be more appropriately addressed in the Minister of Labour's Estimates .

That is his recommendation and comes under the jurisdiction of his department. MR. CHERNIACK: The Minister says more appropriately asked to the Minister of Labour. I think the Minister of Labour has re to account and justify along those lines , but as the Minister must know, there are two concurrent meetings going on and the Minister of Labour is in the other room and I really can't ask him those questions unless I leave the Minister, and I hope he is not inviting me to leave this Committee in order to ascertain that question . MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I certainly wouldn't want to see the Member for St.

Johns leave the Committee . The rationale, I think , obviously stated by the Minister of Labour is that persons working in that area, serving liquor, also in that service receive tips and gratuities of significant amounts, and on that basis is the rationale used for, I guess, not increasing the minimum wage in that area. MR. CHERNIACK: I'm glad the Attorney-General gave us that rationale, which I never did understand .

I think the difference is 10 cents an hour , and I would think tips, if received, must be substantially in excess of 10 cents an hour, so either the minimum wage doesn't apply at all or the reason is peculiar if not fallacious . As a matter of fact, I would even go further to say that there are other people who earn tips like people who serve food and beverages that are not alcoholic and why are they favoured in that way to that extent? It's not a sensible thing. People at gas pumps get tips; people - luggage carrying - people at airports, people at trains get tips .

There are so many that get tips that to single these out would make it appear as if there is a special lobby to which the government succumbed . Therefore, I would ask the Minister more directly whether he is aware of any briefs or arguments presented to government by the hotelkeepers , restaurant keepers , liquor servers' employers, asking for that lesser minimum wage? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , I don't want to say that I have never seen anything on that subject related to the industry, but I would say that I certainly did not receive any special brief with respect to that matter . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, I won't press that any further, having expressed my opinion . I want to know about the private sale of liquor. The government is considering it, and I quote from a March 26th Tribune report which states that a major review of the possibility of allowing private stores to sell liquor has been promised by Premier Sterling Lyon. He is quoted here as being a supporter of the idea, feeling that free competition might bring liquor prices down and that 4131

Friday, May 11, 1979 are probably ready for a loosening of government controls on liquor . Now I disagree with that strongly . I would like to know whether such a review has been commenced . MR. MERCIER: No, it has not , Mr. Chairman . MR. CHEFINIACK: I would like to know if such a review is being planned or contemplated . MR. MERCIER: Yes, it is still being contemplated , Mr. Chairman. I think the procedure would probably be the appointment of two or three individuals in the community to undertake the stud y, as was indicated in the Speech from the Throne. MR. CHEBNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, the suggestion that liquor prices could come down, without revenue being lost , which I think is the concept unless the government is prepared to lose revenue , would seem to me to make clear that either the Liquor Commission operation is so uneconomic or so sloppy or so inadequately supervised as to have excessive costs attached to it, or that the retail providers or the retail sellers of liquor that would have the bene fit of being enabled to sell it, would gain so much from the sale of liquor that they could cut their profits and still justify a profit margin over and above that that the liquor now makes, then I marvel that it is being considered at all.

I would like to know whether the government is planning to review the entire sale of liquor at all levels or whether it plans to confine it to just, say, hard liquor or certain localities. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Mr. Morris McGregor (Virden): The Honourable Minister . MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , the terms of reference for such a study have not yet been approved .

I would say, with respect to revenue from the Commission, the Minister of Finance has certainly not indicated to me that he is prepared to accept any less revenue from the Liquor Control Commission than he is now receiv ing or estimating and I think that has to be a primary concern of any such study . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , since I'm not too famil iar with The Liquor Control Act , could the Minister give us an assurance that there cannot or there would not be any change from present liquor retailing policies without reference back to the Legislature . MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman , in order to establish what we might call private vendors within the City of Winnipeg, the authority of the present Act only allows the establishment or appointment of vendors outside of the City of Winnipeg in rural areas and there are 165, approximately , of those, but there would be a change in the legislation required to establish private vendors within the City of Winnipeg boundaries . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , I believe also that the retail selling price at all the private vendors currently selling liquor for the Commission is fixed and the same throughout the province .

That's correct , is it not? MR. MEFICIER: Yes, Mr. Chairman , it's the same price as at the Liquor Control Commission stores , MR. CHERNIACK: May I just ascertain from the Minister the manne r of payment to the private vendors . Is it based on turnover or is it a flat fee or is it a percentage of the retail price then? MR. MER:CIER: Mr. Chairman, it's a percentage of the turnover. I can obtain the specific percentage for the member. MR.

CHERNIACK: The specific percentage is not too important at this stage , but it therefore means that there is no competition in the sale of liquor in the Province of Manitoba and I would like an assurance then from the Minis ter, whose knowledge of the Act must be superior , well , couldn 't help but be superior to mine , that opening up the pricing for competition could not be done without reference back to the Legislature . MR. MEIFICIER: 1 don 't believe so, Mr. Chairman . In fact I would be willing to say that it can 't 4132

Friday, May 11, 1979 be. MR. CHERNIACK : Just to clarify it, in other words , if I might sum it up, that what ever policy this governmen t to dec ides to car ry out that wou ld be a variation from the existing, would require legislative approval and that' s t he assuranc e that would sat isfy me. I would then say let the govern ment do as it pleases with all the investigation it likes , as long as we have the chance to debate it before a change is made . The Minister 's impression , I believe , is that that will not be done without reference back to the Legislature . MR. MERCIER: Yes, Mr.

Chairman , m y und erstanding is that legislative amendments would be required. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wolsele y. MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman , I can 't help but think of something that was said by Mr.

Harrison the other night about the politic ian being the shepherd and the civil servant being the sheepdog and I think of the Liquor Control Commission and since I have arrived here, the lack of modern change that has taken place and has taken place in such a slow manner, I can 't help but think that unde r this sect ion alone , we could spen d a great deal of time and I would like to see, for one th ing, that we now have an NHL hockey team here and I would like to see that Manitoba businessmen and Manitoba indu stry , advertis ing industry, be given an equal break with the American counterpa rts who beam in different things for cablevision and things into our province .

I can 't help but th ink of how the former czar, Mr. Syms , killed all the liquor salesmen - I think about 28 of them were laid off - the brewerie s are not goi ng to make any less profits . I think that these 28 jobs should be restored unde r our governme nt.

We had families that were supported by the money that these salesmen made from the brewerie s and I would like to see these jobs recreated and I see nothing wrong with the salesmen going around , calling on hote l managers for public relations purposes , for getting involved in golf tournaments and for getting involved in political campa igns and for getting involved in community activities . I see nothing wrong with that and I can't understand why the former government did away with all these public relations salesmen that the liquor industry had in Manitoba .

I would like to see, and I don 't agree with my Premier when he says that to expand the liquor advertising is not a good thing , I think it is. You have got to get with the modern times and I think it is absolute ly ridiculous to have

an Act that says you cannot start advertis ing until ten o'clock in the evening when other cablevision situatio ns and with Telestar and closed circuit and different movies you go to , these are all part and parcel of the way of life and I think it's a blow to our local industry and it's certainly not going to help . I would like to see our hockey team be given the equal chance that Edmonton has of being able to get that $3 million contract with Molson 's to help finance that new hockey team to our particular community . I would think that that would be a real blow.

We are all suffering the start-up costs and I would like to see them be allowed to compete in the marketplace and not have government dictate. Certainly I ran on a freedom of choice platform and I would like to see our government get out of that area. I can 't see why we can 't have continuity throughout the province . It galls me that in Rapid City and in Gladstone and Erickson and all these other places , you can go and get peanuts , ice , mix , all the things for your entertainment. When you come to Winnipeg , what do you have to do? You have to go searching around for a Mac 's Milk Store .

I think that our liquor stores are drab and outdated . There was a move to have them self-serve . I think certainly I can't see anything wrong with look ing to the view of being unified throughout the province. In other words , we in the City of Winnipeg shouldn't be second-class citizens. I would like to see, as I pointed out in this particular magazine in which I was interviewed and said that I wanted to see Man itoba become a fun place in the '80s.

I think that our liquor laws that were held back by Frank Syms are due for a big shakeup and I would like to see this Minister take credit for some of the things that have happened to date . We are still months behind our sister provinces . It is absolutely rid iculous , some of the regulat ions you read .

I see nothing wrong with allowing patrons to move around, the stand-up bars , because it will result in less intoxication and better communication between the citizens of Winnipeg if we are to have a truly friendly Manitoba. ~ I see nothing so ridiculous as a new disco opening up where people have to sit down with all that loud music and have a steak as part of the regulations. I think people should be allowed to have reduced food service such as appetizers or a cheese plate and that type of thing . In fact, the time may be coming, with the opening - and look at the capital investment that's involved 4133

Friday, May 11, 1979 when you do have these changes take place - the Town and Country to Studio 44 is only the tip of the iceberg of the capital investment and the boom to the economy that would take place by outside fresh new dollars coming to the province to invest in entertainment establishments. I know for a fact that hotels like the Marlborough and the Fort Garry and others would compete and renovate their premises to avoid consumer resistance . So I would like to see changes there. I would like to see more recorded music as well as live bands and I think the 13 square foot regulation that Mr.

Syms brought in is absolutely ridiculous because how on one hand can you approve a stand-up bar licence and still have the 13 foot square regulation? And appa rently the only stand-up licence in Winnipeg , other than the Convention Centre , G. Willaker 's, has been a failure because of that type of regulation. I can 't see where liquor cannot be carried from - and it has been , of course, under this Minister, from one province to the other , and I'm glad that that change took place.

I can 't see how we can have cheese stores operating in a beautiful complex like the Winnipeg Square Development without allowing them at some time in the future the ability to sell wine . In France and other European countries wine is considered like milk is to us and I cannot see anything wrong with allowing that portion to go to the private sector. I would like to see more bars and pubs not connected with the Manitoba Hotel Association , there seems to be an extremely heavy lobby on the government and I thi nk that has to be broken down.

And these capital constructions , something like the Member for Elmwo od had when he was in the business , it was not really connected to hotels but I am sure that if he had been away from that hotel he would have been more successful. And I would have liked to have seen more of that and I think an indication of the popularity of Bogards which is in an old bank is the desire of people to want to get away from the locked in situation to hotels . So this was just brought up spur of the moment because of the Member for St. Johns talking about sungested changes in the Liquor Control

Section of which I am very very interested and I encourage the Minister to become the shephard and to tell the civil servants that the parlimentarians and the public seem to want changes. And I would think that the Minister of Health and the Attorney-General , who the Liquor Control Commission comes under , should be looking to leading the way and not saying , well someday we're going to have a uniform liquor policy for the entire Dominion of Canada .

I think there is a need to support our NHL hockey team , I think there is a ridiculous double standard here where you have these ads coming in and even these Marxist Leninist and other groups can put , " Don't buy South African Wines ", and yet the particular people themselves such as Molsons and Labatts are not allowed to advertise their products . I see nothing wrong with their participation in sports and I don 't know Mr. Syms felt that this was a detriment to sport to have this type of support.

Because anyone know that there 's very few AA alcoholics that are in the top 50 athletes of any particular catego ry and so there is no danger of an athlete becoming an alcoholic because the liquor industry is supporting his particular sporting indus try through increased advertising . In other words there is a lost industry here . We are looking for ways to create new jobs. We're looking for a new stimulus for investment.

We're looking for this place to become alive and offset the floods and the record days of winter and I can 't help but think that we've got to do something to offset , whatever the reason, the types like Terry Balkan and that leave . I would suggest that if you got with it and modernized your particular city ; you can still listen to the temperance people . There is no way where we have to have billboards on every corner . But I do feel that there is room for the mturn of the once proud industry that was demolished by the former government. And before I close , Mr.

Chairman, give others an opportunity to speak on the Liquor Commission under the Minister 's Salary I have one thing to talk about under the Legal Aid which is No. 9. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , I enjoyed that attack on the Attorney-General and that criticism of the present Acting Chairman and the suggestions made ... Well it surely wasn 't an attack on our administration because we haven 't been in office for the past 18 months . -(Interjection)- Well you fellows are in power and you are free to change it as you see fit. You can do anything you want.

You can replace the Chairman if you don 't like what he's doing ; you can replace the Attorney-General if you don 't like his policies. But the Member for Wolseley is still bringing up old issues , he's always bac k in 1975, 1976, and 1977. I don't know whether his attack is on Frank Syms the federal New Democratic candidate or whether he is attacking the man when he was the Chairman of the Liquor Control Commission . But I have to say that I think that just in passing I think Mr. Syms brought in a lot of excellent innovations and improvements .

I don 't want to start debating his record but I would only make this point or two . He of course , brought in some more contemporary liquor stores in line with what 4134

• Friday, May 11, 1979 the Member for Wolseley was talking about and he also, I think, encouraged the better use of the drinking of wine . He attempted to educate the public to the use of wine with food which 1 think is a long overdue step. But if the Membe r for Wolseley can persuade his coll eagu es to intr oduc e legislation eliminating restr ict ions on advertising on television for liquor, I would like to see that happen to this extent , that I would oppose it head on and I think that most of my colleag ues would oppose that.

So if the government 's interested in eliminating any restrictio ns on liquor in terms of time of day advertising or encouraging and allowing more wide spre ad use of advertising to promote the sale and consumption of liquor , I can tell him that I will oppose that and so will many other people in our society and in Manitoba . I think that was a good proposal. I recall when it was introduced. I think the Member for Rock Lake and I were in the House somewhere in 1966, 1967, 1968, and I believe Mr.

Campbell was the one who brought that restriction in and received support on all sides and I think it still has some considerable merit. Mr. Chairman , just a remark or two on the Liquor Commission and then I want to move to some other areas. Again the Attorney-General , we discussed this matter the other day , I am assume that he is on the verge of recommending three people for a Commission to get into a study . of this whole liquor question . I believe tha t he has probably formulated terms of reference and probably has people in mind and that that is about to ensue .

I hope that one of the reasons for this action isn't what was pointed out by some writers in the Winnipeg press . For example , Alice Krug er suggest ed in her column last November, that the main reason that the AG has proposed this type of legislation was that he was going to threaten the Manitoba liquor workers with the breakup of the MLCC . I hope that is not the motivating factor behind the review of the Liquor Act, because that has been suggested in some quarters that it's a big stick that the AG is waving at the employees to keep them in line. Union busting is the general category .

But I say this to the government and to the Attoryney-General in particular that your revenues are $66 million and you just said a few minutes that the Minister of Finance seemed in no way in any rush to give up that kind of revenue. It's a government monopoly . My impression is that it is fairly well run and has been . It is certainly fairly tough and I think there is a need for the review of certain proposals. I, too , cannot understand why there can't be some different types of retail establishments than we not have.

I know that the basic principle is food tied to liquor and that does make sense, but it does also seem to make sense that modern discotheques and nightclubs and so on can just be for a place to go where somebody wants to dance and drink and not necessarily have to eat. And the experience I think most of us have is that when you go out to eat, you go to a restaurant. When you go out to dance or drink , you go somewhere else. And most nightclubs that serve food , the food is not up to the standard of most restaurants. They 're just not in the same league.

So most people tend to go out to eat and then they tend to go out to drink or dance . -(lnterjection)- Down east - well , you see, I'm not familiar with the Morden situation. My friend from down south, I don't know about their discos or whether they drink outside and then go in and - (Interjection)- boogie till 4 in the morning. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. MR. DOERN: And I don't know whether the band is a rock band or a couple of fiddles and a - (Interjection)- country and western , well that I expected. So Mr.

Chairman, I'm saying to you that there probably is a need for a review of smme of the establishments we have in the sense of categories of licence, and I know that in the United States and eastern Canada and so on there seems to be some very attractive places where people can go and just have a few drinks . And Manitoba seems to be somewhat out of tune with that. We've made tremendous strides since the 50s. All of us I think are old enough to recall the 50s when the practice was to take a bottle into a nightclub and then buy the mix, and everybody simply flouted the law in that particular way.

And then finally there was a liquor change, there was the Bracken Commission and there has been improvements ever since . And I expect the Attorney-General to make more improvements , but Mr. Chairman, having gained the support of my friends, I am worried about the breakup of the MLCC because I do not ~avour , in any way, shape or form, the breakup of the government monopoly . I don't favour the sale of beer in grocery stores , which I gather is not being contemplated , and I don 't favour the use of private liquor stores, or the allowance of private liquor stores .

It would be very nice , it would be very handy , but I think that whoever decides to do that is going to have to answer to the taxpayers because of the fact that there is $66 million in revenue, and if you 're going to do that and give up $10 million or $20 million in revenue, then I say that that is something very serious indeed, that would have to be answered. My other point here, Mr. Chairman , is again , on this waiters and waitresses business . I went 4135

Friday, May 11, 1979 through university as a waiter on the CPR, three years on the trains, one year at Lake Louise, and I can 't seE! the merit of singling these people out in regard to the minimum wage . It also makes no sense whatsoever to talk about liquor waiters and waitresses. Again , if you're going to talk about waiters and waitresses, that would apparently apply to everyone in the food industry and the liquor industry . But to single out only one particular category , people who serve liquor , and to separate them out, is just not consistent , and I think somewhat suspect. Mr.

Chairman , I wanted to go on to a couple of other points that we have discussed before . I wanted to ask the Attorney-General if he could comment on this particular point. We have seen quite a few revelations in the last few months about various homosexual rings in Manitoba , and in Winnipeg in particular , and I understand that there are another half-dozen names in the department ; that the department has been looking at these names for the past month or so, and I just wondered if the Attorney-General had any comment about more charges arising out of this type of activity . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister.

MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , all I can indicate is that there are continuing investigations; they 're ongoing . MR. DOEBN : The other area I would ask the Attorney-General to comment on is that there's been a considerable number of offences committed in the past few months with people on parole or on bail or on temporary release . For example, this morning , there was something on the radio about some inmate who was out on a release who raped a woman in Winnipeg . We learned a few days ago about Mr. Malone committing an offence up in Flin Flon during the flood , an alleged offence .

During the flood there were instances where some prisoners were being used to help fight the flood and a number of them ran away . We have a continual series of stories of people who are out on temporary releases , people who are out on bail, so on and so on , and they are committing crimes, which must be very frustrating to the police and somewhat alarming to the populace. So I was just wondering again , we had a discussion of this with the Attorney-General a few months aqo.

We are now on his Salary , and we 've had complaints made by members of the judiciary - Justice Garson comes to mind in particular - complaining about sentencing people to jail for 6 months and 6 days later an appl ication to be released ; people being put away for a few months, going into Headingley on one bus and catching the next bus out. So I'm just asking the Attorney-General again , he made some comments on this , I don 't know where he stands on this, I don 't know what his influence is. I assume that he can set the tone .

Maybe l'rn wrong in that regard , but I assume that if he wanted a tightening up on questions of early releases and maybe even bail, I don 't know what, but I assume he could set the tone. If he wanted to come down hard on law and order , he could do so. He seems to have expressed 9. view that he was in favour of stiffer sentences . Unfortunately, that was related as a counter to the fact therE! were too many early releases. There seemed to be a contradiction between his policies in his department and the Corrections Minister.

So holding that aside , I simply ask the Attorney-General again whether he does in fact feel that sentencing is too lenient, if he wants to comment on whether he thinks there are too many temporary releases , and just where he stands in this , or whether he thinks he can stand outside of the whole justice system as an observer , or whether he intends to come down on one side of the issue? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman , as a result of the criticisms of the teorary absence program , first of all I want to differentiate and clarify, for persons sentenced to two years or over, their release is the responsibility of the National Parole Board . The Corrections Department deals with persons sentenced to provincial institutions. We in the department have requested the corrections officials to review their guidelines and procedures governing the issuance of temporary absences and we have had a preliminary report on that , which is from the corrections offi cials.

We wish shortly to meet wit h judges and senior Crown Attorneys to review the revised - the new guidelines from the corrections officials . Certainly our concern within our department and one that's been expressed publicly is that releases made very early after court sentence certainly have the tendency to create disrespect and undermine the authority of the criminal justice system in the eyes of the public. So we feerthere should be some firmer guidelines .

A review has been undertaken and we have a preliminary report for consideration now, and we expect shortly to meet with provincial judges for disc ussion of this report. MR. DOERN: Does the Attorney-General have any ob servation on the remarks of Justice Garson that he felt that because of the overcrowding at Head ing ley, etc. that this was causing judges to 4136 .. •

• Friday, May 11, 1979 not sentence people to jail or not incarce rat e people , t hat there was a problem at the oth er end in terms of physical space to contain offenders. The only solu tio n to that, obvio usly, would be the expansion of space. I just wond er if the Attorney-General has any remark s about that . MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , I do not wish to enter into a pu blic debate about policy with a provinc ial judge. My view would be that it is improper for a provincial judge to publicly enter into debate over policy issues .

There are other methods of discussin g those issues, ana I don 't wish to enter into - if they wish to make public com ments I suppose that's their cho ice. But 1 don 't wish to enter into a public debate with him . We are reviewing new guidelines for the temporary absence program and will meet with them and discuss that program with them. MR. DOERN: I'd simply say that Justice Garson apparently felt compelled to write to the Corrections Department to complain , and I was just wondering whether there isn't - I don't know if this is MR. MERCIER: I think that's perfect ly appropriate , Mr.

Chairman , if a provincial judge has a concern about a procedure that he write privately to the appropriate authorities . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , the other question I wanted to raise was the one that has been talked about a great deal but one that we're still waiting for some action on, and that is the accusations made some months ago by the Ombudsman in regard to The Pas Correctional. And these were some pretty scathing comments. I forget all the exact allegations . I have the report here, but they were - well , I guess the big expression used by Mr. Maltby was that the whole situation was scandaalous .

That was his main comment. He talked about a dep lora ble disregard of The Juveni le • Delinquents Act and that the government appeared to be in violation of The Corrections Act and Child Welfare Act and that it was impossible to segregate people and so on and so on, and all we've heard in the past few months from the government, from the two Ministers , namely the Minister of Corrections and the Attorney-General was that they were reviewing the report.

I pressed the Attorney-General a number of times about that, and he's talked about meetings and this and that, but that does not answer the questio n abou t the Ombudsman 's report as to whether the Attorney -Ge neral has evaluated the charges made by the Ombudsman and how he would reply to them . So I wonder if he'd care to comment on that. "' MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , we have now had an opportunity to evaluate that report and, as existed under the previous government , the practi ce with respect to the placement of juveniles and adults in The Pas Correctional Institution is clearly contrary to

Section 13 of The Juvenile Delinquents Act, which forbids the detention of juveniles with adults while in pre-trial custody. .. This is a problem that the Corrections Department is aware of and I understand they are developing appropriate facilities in The Pas. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, I find it hard to hear the Attorney-General. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Could we have one speaker at a time. The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Could I also ask him if he is reading? I'm not sure what he is reading from. He is now reading me a legal opinion , I believe .

Could I ask is that his own opinion or is he reading from a report or something? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I indicated that we had now had an opportunity to evaluate the concerns expressed by Mr. Maltby in his Annual Report , and our conclusion is that, as existed under the previous government , that the practice of placing juveniles and adults in The Pas Correctional Institution is clearly contrary to

Section 13 of The Juvenile Delinquents Act, which forbid! the detention of juveniles with adults while in pre- trial custody. I understand the Correction Officials are aware of this , as they have been under our government and the previous government, and that they are developing appropriate facilities in The Pas as soon as possible. Another question was asked with respect to the new facility planned in Brandon.

It is our opinion that, on the understanding that the plans for the construction of the building will completely separate adults and juveniles so that there will be no actual connection between them, we see no reason by a juvenile institution and an adult institution cannot be in the same building. MR. DOERN: So then it's clear that the Attorney-General has indicated that the province and his 4137

Friday, May 11, 1979 government have been in violation of the law, which was the statement made by the Ombudsman , and then the question is, of course, how soon will this be rectified . Because we have been playing a game with the Town of The Pas, in terms of the problem of permits for trailers , etc . This has been goin!J on, and it's going to take , still, a considerable amount of time to tender that contract and build that new facility .

And , given the fact that the government is in violation of, I guess, provincial and/or federal statutes in regard to the separation of juveniles , can the Attorney-General indicate when The Pas Correctional Jail and Courthouse will be constructed , as to what time frame we're now thing about? Because , you know , this has been talked about for 15 or 20 years, and our government was within hours of commencing construction a year and a half ago . Mr. Sherman made many statements over the past year about proceeding. He made statements in The Pas to the newspaper in March of 1978.

In February he said it was a top priority , to the paper , and so on and so on, but we're still nowhere near it. All we hear is that the government is going to redesign . We know that , because of delays , that you 're in a lawsuit, that you're being sued for $700,000 by the contractor . We know that constru ction prices have gone up. We know that you 're not going to build the jail, which is, I think , long overdue , but you're going to separate that out. And we had the hilarious statement made by the former Member for River Heights .

He said , "You 're saving all kinds of money on redesign ." Then he explained how that was being down by not buildi ng one-third or one-ha lf of the facility . That's not saving money ; that's just delaying the expenditure , that's all. And we saw already how money was being saved on Brandon. Brandon costs $2 million more today than it did when we planned it. It's now talked about as $7 or $8 million , coared to $5 or $6 million . It's up $2 million . I say The Pas prison is going to be up a great amount , as well.

So maybe the Attorney-General doesn 't know what I'm asking him ; I'm asking him when he can indicate ... -(Interjection)- Well , to spend money . - (Interjection) - Yes, I am asking him to spend money, because there is no way out. You are in violation of provincial and federal statutes . If you am prepared .. . -(Interjection)- Well , comment comes " Shoot the buggers ." MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please , could we have one speaker at a time , please. The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Well, shoot the bundle , if you prefer that synonym. I see, all right, shoot the bundle . My point is this, Mr.

Chairman , that when you are in violation of the law and when you ... You know , the way to save money in the whole field that the Attorney-General is responsible for is, of course , to, on one extreme, let people run loose in the streets ; you save a lot of money that way. That's your government's policy . The other way is to crack down and I suppose execute people for minor offences up; that's the other way to save money . There is no way around saving money; there isn 't. If you want proper facilities to hold people who have violated the law, it's going to cost money. There is no way out.

So that is what I am trying to talk to the Attorney-General about. He agrees that there is going to be an expenditure of money , and that there 's a need for the expenditure of money; maybe the back bench doesn 't. So, I'm saying , Mr. Chairman , to what extent, or can the Attorney-General indicate when he thinks this prison is going to be redesigned? It was designed 18 months ago ; it's now being "redesigned ". When will the redesign finish and when will the project be tendered? MR. MEBCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I believe the Minister of Government Services and the Minister of Corrections or Health and Community Services are looking at a very specific proposal right now , and I expect will be making an announcement very very soon. MR. DOI:RN: There was also talk about temporarily , I think taking the juveniles out of the trailers , et cetera. There was talk in The Pas about removing juveniles into some home , or some new building and undertaking some renovations. Can the Attorney-General indicate whether that is now in the works? MR. MERCIER: No, I cannot , Mr. Chairman .

That would have to be addressed to the Minister of Corrections or Government Services . MR. DOERN: Can the Minister indicate when the court house will be built? MR. MERCIER: No, I cannot , Mr. Chairman , that 's part of the very specific project that is now 4138 -· •

.. • • " Friday, May 11, 1979 being considered by the two Ministers I mentioned. We could move on with these Estimates, and perhaps you could start with the Minister of Government Services Monday . MR. DOERN: The Minister of Government Services is usually in full-flight at all times, inspecting the dikes. Mr. Chairman, my question - the central question growing out of this discussion is this, you admit that you are in violation of statutes, in terms of The Pas Jail. Yet , it is going to take a year to two years to design and to construct a new facility .

In the meantime, you are violating the law; in the meantime, you will have to get more extensions from the town of The Pas. Are you just going to simply turn your back on that fact , or are you going to do something temporary, in terms of relocating those juveniles; or are you simply going to ignore the fact that you are violating those statutes until - are you just going to say that in view of the proposed construction of The Pas Correctional, we will simply stand in violation of these laws? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I believe that question would be more appropriately put to the Ministe r responsible for Corrections . MR. DOERN: I'm asking you , as a member of the government and I'm asking you , as a man responsible for law and order in this province. You're a Minister; you 've obviously had discussions with your colleagues from Government Services and from Corrections.

I'm saying to you, your responsibility in all of this , is that you're the one who 's supposed to crack the whip here, and are you going to allow your colleagues and your government to simply to continue to violate the law for another year to two years? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , notwithstanding that the previous government was also in violation of the law, I have indicated fairly specifically that a project is receiving immediate and present consideration, and I have indicated that I expect a decision to be made very very soon. MR.

DOERN: On the construction . . . talking about the new construction or a measure which will be taken concurrent with the new construction. MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Chairman, when that decision is made, the Minister of Government Services and the Minister of Corrections will announce it. MR. DOERN: We will hear an announcement about the fact that some variation or version or water-downed version of a correctional institute will be built, but in the meantime, those juveniles are still in those trailers and you're still in violation of the law.

And I'm saying, what are you going to do to get your government off the hook in the meantime? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , I've answered that question . The Member for Elmwood will find out when an announcement is made by the Minister of Health and Community Services or the Minister of Government Services, and I say again, for the fifth or sixth time that they have an immediate project under consideration, and I'm expecting a decision will be made very very soon . MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I would conclude my remarks by saying that although the government intends or talks about building a new correctional institute, they are now in violation and they will continue to be in violation of the law for a year to two, when the doors open of that facility and the situation is rectified . So, they have been in violation - admitted for the past 18 months, and they 're going to cont inue to be in violation. I find that a very peculiar and indefensible position for the Attorney-General to calmly sit there, and say he doesn't mind the fact that the law is being broken . MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1.(a)-pass - the Honourable Minister. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , I don't accept the presumption that the violation of the law will continue as it did under the previous government for another year or two. That decision will be announced shortly. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, from my standpoint , if you ignore the clock for a couple of minutes, it would satisfy my needs - and then I don't know about others.

Two things: one is, will the Minister undertake in due course - I mean within the next few days, to inform us the estimated costs of the purchase and renovation of the building which is now being considered for the expansion of the courtroom facilities - the Provincial Judges Court, and indicate where the 4139

Friday, May 11, 1979 money will be sought, whence the money will come for that? Secondly then, may I ask the Minister that if he has not already had the opportunity, will he avail himself of an opportunity to see the report which 1 gave to the Minister of Health last year, September , I think it was , dealing with recommendations on professional associations? I raised it with this Minister , because I think that he has a fairly direct responsibility for the Law Society Act, and possibly for some of the other special acts.

I filed the report specifically with the Minister of Health , not knowing who else should receive it. I'd like to know if the Minister has had an opportunity to see it, and if he hasn 't, will he undertake to see it and be prepared to make some comments which I might ask during the Question Period or some other opportunity , giving him enough time to do that? I'm sorry , if he undertakes that, I have nothing further that I need to deal with. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman , I don 't know the size of this report on professionalism; I think it's a very important area , almost an urgent area and to be dealt with in the legislative process within certainly the next year. I would like to have an opportunity to review that report; I don 't know whether we'll have the opportunity to get through it in the next few days or so, but I would like to have an opportunity to see it. With respect to the first question , I can make those figures available when we have them . Certainly , they probably also will be available through the Minister of Government Services during his Estimates .

MR. CHERNIACK: I'm really trying to be very quick about it. If the Minister says the money will be found in Government Services, then we can deal with it there . As to the other report , I was disappoint 1ad that having given the Health Minister my extensive report on professional associations , I've not seen any outside activity in regard to it, and therefore, I would appeal to this Minister to see the report. There is only one copy available, because the Minister of Health apparently was not prepared to make any more copies of it.

And not within the next few days , but before the session is over, I'd like to get the Attorney-General to respond to the extent he can , as to the matters raised there . If he undertakes to do it in due course , before the session has ended , then I would be quite happy to accept that undertaking. MR. MERCIER: Well, you know, undertake to do it. I don 't know whether I can do it within this session bHcause I haven 't the size of the report. MR. CHEFINIACK: There 's an incentive . MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1.(a)-pass; Resolution 14: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $736 ,600 for Attorney-General-pass . That concludes the Estimates of the Attorney-General. The hour being 4:30, committee rise . Agreed? (Agreed) Committee rise. SUPPLY - LABOUR AND MANPOWER MR. CHAIRMAN: This Committee will come to order. I would direct the honourable members' attention to Page 59 of the Main Estimates, Department of Labour and Manpower , Resolution No. 77, 1. General Administration, Item (

c) Women 's Bureau:(1)Salaries-pass ; (2)-pass - the Honourab l;e Member for Logan. MR. JENtCINS: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Could the minister give us a breakdown of what Other Expend itures are, and is it just the normal inflationary increase , or is there money in there for any evaluation or studies of the various programs that the Bureau carries out in its normal course of _,.. duty? ': MR. CHA IRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

MacMASTER: The breakdown is: Professional fees $2,000; Furniture and furnishings $1 ,000 ; Printing and stationery supplies $14,000; Postage and telephone $2,000 ; Automobi les $1,000 ; Advertising and exhibits $5,000 ; Publications $1,000 ; Travelling $2,900 ; and Educational assistance $1,000.00 . - MR. JENKINS: Could the minister inform the committee - Professio~ fees - are these fees paid for outside consultants or what are the Professional fees of $2,000; just what do they entail? MR. MacMASTER: It's assistance that may be required occasionally on an ongoing basis which 4140

• • • Friday, May 11, 1979 could include a survey which possibly could be taken, or a study, or a seminar if a specific professional was required. MR. JENKINS: Is the minister contemplating, then, making an evaluation of the item that I raised earlier with him today which was the study . of the average incomes for jobs of equal value or equivalent jobs, is the Minister contemplating a study this year or is he no8 at the present time? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman , I understand that the Council for Women have a tremendous amount of material that they want me to review on that specific topic, of which I'll be doing as quickly as I can get at it, in conjunction with the Women 's Bureau, and we'll see if there 's any additional inform ation that might be required. MR. JENKINS: Then the Ministe r is not anticipating anything other than reviewing the information that the Council of . Women have .

The Minister 's not anticipating doing a review, say, of female employees within the Government Services, and how they are being upgraded and how their salaries com pare for their male counterparts . Is the Minister not considering anything along that line in this year 's activities in the Women 's Bureau? MR.

MacMASTER: That type of review is ongoing and will be - more emphasis put on it this particular year in relationship to what the Women 's Bureau have, the Women's Council have , the information they have, how it applies , the corrective measures that may be suggested right for within our Government Services . MR. JENKINS: The Minister says that this is an ongoing study . Would the Minister consider tabling in the House a report on the progress that they have made up to this time since the Minister says it's an ongoing th ing?

I mean , do they anything , say, for 1978 - a job evaluation and how women compare in that field with their , like I say, with their male counterpart? If they have anything, would he consider tabling it? MR. MacMASTER: I don't have anything that I could specifically table, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you , Mr. Chairperson . The Minister indicated that as we went through the Estimates he would inform us of any committees that would come under review under that particular

section , and I just ask him for information pertaining to - if we should be just directing our remarks to any committees operating under, or within the jurisdiction of the Women 's Bureau, any committees reporting to him? MR. CHAIRMAN: (2)-pass; - the Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you , Mr. Chairperson . Well , seeing no questions, and not wanting to belabour the discussion on this one

Section of the Estimates , I think it's just appropriate that we close up with a few remarks as to what we feel is happening in the Women 's Bureau , what the Opposition perceives as having happened over the past year , and some of our suggestions in the hopes that it can aid the Minister in his responsibilities as Minister responsible for this department. It's obvious from the statist ics that have come out over the last evening and this morning that the act iviti es of the Women 's Bureau during 1978 display a substantial decrease over the previous years .

And this is occurring at a time when there are more and more womnn entering the labour force and more and more women who could sure ly use the support of services that the Women's Bureau would be able to offer them and the counselling programs that the Women's Bureau should be offering , and yet we see a downsw ing in the level of activities and I'm not resting the blame for that on the shoulders of the Minister because I understand full well that he was not entirely responsible for that, that there weFe some problems within the department with the change of directors and that there was another Minister who was responsible for the most part for the lack of activities.

But it is our opinion that the Bureau has lacked , over the previous year, a strong Ministerial direction or support and that the employees in that Bureau have been struggling hard just to tread water and just to maintain - or even attempt to maintain , which they haven't succeeded 4141

Friday, May 11, 1979 in doing, the level of services that had existed previously and we feel that is a situation that needs to be corrected. And if 1 am interpreting the comments made by the Min ister during the review of this department , 'r 1 would suggest that he is trying to make those necessary corrections. I wish him every success in that because it is indeed a very important department within his Department of Labour and Manpower .

It's also hoped that he will take our suggestion seriously , as it was given in all seriousness , that they chan~1e the name from the Department of Labour and Manpower to something that is more supportive of women entering the labour force and working in the labour force , something that would be more appropriate, and I think the Member for Kildonan 's suggestion for the Department "' of Labour and Human Resources Division would be most appropriate .

And I say that in all seriousness and I think it is quite important, because as the Minister himself had indicated , there is certain wording in postings which tend to scare people away , certain wording in bulletins which tend to make people who would normally apply not apply , and that wording has a very profound impact on the actions of people , and I think that this is just another instance where he can make this department more accessible or appear to be more accessible to women by changing the title , and so we made that , although briefly - last night we made that suggestion .

We did make it in all seriousness. I would just like to comment that the number of special studies, seminars , group counsell ing sessions and individual counselling sessions have all showed significant declines over previous years , and that we find unsatis factory and we wish the Minister all due speed and luck in his efforts to correct that situation and get this department back on track , because it obviously has not been on track for the previous year . And with that , if there are no other quest ions from my colleagues , I think we can probably proceed on to the next item .

Before doing so, I would just ask for some help from the Chairperson . I note that last year under this

section of the Estimates under this administration in the first part we dealt with a department called Research , and I don 't see that department listed here this year and I'm wondering if - the research department that was dealt with under this item last year , is that now the Research Department that we find in the Manpower

section of the Estimates? Then perhaps for further clarification - the Minister has indicated " yes" - it was my understanding that Research Depar tment was performing the function of investigating the Labour Acts, reviewing them and preparing necessary changes . If that research department has been switched over to Manpower Division is it still performing that same function, or should we be talking about legislative changes under this particular section? ~ MR. CHAI1RMAN: I would think that the Honourable Minister has suggested that it be discussed under Item 3.(a), Research . MR.

COWAN: I just want , for clarification , because it 's now in to the Manpower Division . Is that the Research Departme nt that is reviewing the legislation for the purpose of making necessary or unnecessary , as the case may be, amendments and changes? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman , I'll get into what the Research Department is doing when we get to (3)(a). I don 't think we should be debating its content two or three times . MR. CHA URMAN: I would think that if there is anything that doesn 't appear in that , the Minister 's Salary would certainly cover it. MR.

COWAN: I would be perfectly willing to discuss anything , Mr. Chairperson, that we happen to miss in our going through the Estimates , but that does mean that the Minister will not have staff available to him at that time , which makes the procedure that much harder . But if that's how we want to proceed , then I'm perfectly willing to do it in that manner . MR. CHA.IRMAN: (2)-pass ; (c)-pass . 2. Labour Division (

a) Workplace Safety and Health (

a) Salaries--pass; (b)-pass - the Honourable Minister . MR. MacMASTER: The administration

section of the division had four positions last year , two funded , this year has four and they are all funded . Just to clarify that , there were four last year ; two unfunded , and of course two vacant and this year four funded , with the intentions of having them all filled . And under the Workplace Safety and Health Division is the Advisory Committee . That's the only committee that 's existing in this area. 4142

Friday, May 11, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I see that Mr. Reimer is now the new director of the Workplace Safety and Health Division . Can the Minister inform us how many meet ings took place last year of the Workplace Safety and Health Committee, what recommendations that they have made to the Minister, and is the Minister satisfied with the amount of meetings that the committee held last year, for starters? MR.

MacMASTER: In 1978 they had four meetings and so far this year they have had two meetings .; and there is another one proposed within the next couple of weeks. MR. JENKINS: What recommendations , through you, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister , has the committee made to the Minister so far with the meetings that have been held this year?

He may not know what recommendations were made last year, or does this committee when it meets , does it review the legislation that we have in place, the Wo rkplace Safety and Health Act, and how its implementation is being put forward in the workplace to insure that safety and health are being brought forward in the spirit of which the Act is set up? How many Workplace Safety Committees have we in place in places of employment , not only in the public sector but also in the private sector? Could the Minister give us some of the details on some of these items?

The Minister says that the committee has met twice this year and a further meeting is scheduled shortly . Does the Minister feel that four meetings last year were sufficient? Or as he had said when we were discussing administration that he was not in favour of Committees just on paper but he wants Committees active and working - and is he satisfied that the Workplace Safety and Health Committee has been active and working to its capacity in making recommendations and ensuring that the Safety and Health Committees are being set up as was envisioned when the legislat ion was passed? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. MacMASTER: The first meeting this year was simply a review and an informational meeting . The second meeting , there were three specific points given to the Advisory Committee to review and report back and that particular meeting will take place June 1st, I believe . • MR. JENKINS: Is the Minister at liberty to tell us at this time the three items of review that were referred to the Committee so that we may share in the knowledge of the actual work of the Committee in what it is considering at the present time? MR.

MacMASTER: They 're reviewing the criteria for establishing safety committees and they are reviewing a draft of a first aid regulat ion and they are reviewing electrical situations where there is high voltage wiring that may create accidents for possible consideration of legislation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

I wonder if the Minister could give us a breakdown of how many safety committees have been set up in the various industries or conversely how many are still to be set up, also the amount of training and delivery of information that was carried out by the Workplace Safety Health ivision to the various public sectors and industrial private sectors, the kind of material that was given and the number of calls that were made? MR. MacMASTER: I'll have to get some of that material. There were 313 areas that were allocated for safety committees.

There are approximately 290 that are in place and there are some that are questionable and the need for it and the criteria of it and that's why we have given that particular point to the Advisory Committee. There is a whole host of variables that we want them to consider in expansion . Some may not be applicable and there are a whole variety of reasons why we have gien them that particular subject to sink their teeth into and get some recommendations back to us. MR.

FOX: Can the Minister also indicate, when he's compiling the information, as to how many public enquiries were made in respect to Workplace Safety and Health and also as I asked, the kind of material that is being disseminated and also what the Workplace Safety and Health Division is doing in respect to monitoring and looking at the field altogether . 4143

Friday, May 11, 1979 MR. MacMASTER : Mr. Chairman, I understand that there is material being prepared that will be given out . I'd have to ask the member what he meant by - did you say public enquires? I'm just not sure what he's meaning, Mr. Chairman. ~ MR. FOX: Well I'll try and explain . Mr. Chairman , the point is that many people work in various places .

They do not know to what extent they are covered by v-arious laws and , of course , naturally they would phone the Departmen t of Labour and try to find out whether they are covered under Wor ker's Compensation or the Workplace Safety and Health Division or to what exten t they are covered , w ether they 're in an industry that is covered, whether they 're in a small shop which isn't - this is what I am trying to determine . :.

Let me also ask whether there has been any discussion during the meetings that were held by the Workplace Safety and Health Committee in respect to legislation or amendments to The Workplace Safety and Health Act and , of course, as to whether there have been any seminars for the staff besides the mee ti ngs in order to train them how to approach their various duties in the field? MR.

MacMASTER: As we get into the other sections , the member will be interested to know that there are additional peopl e that will be looking forward to - one of the specific positions is training , interna l tra ining, and we're looking for another position for external train ing. I think that there are two types of things that have to take place. Training is an area, if I could be so blunt as to say, that I think we've been lacking in. At least it's my perception of it.

We have some excellent people that I think do need some upgrading and training on a var iety of things and we're going to be look ing to build some positions in tho se particular areas . The branch does plan to promo te to a high degree the awareness on the Workplace Safety and Health matters through introduci ng a system of bulletin publication on topics of significant !" concern . This is part of the publications that we're going to be preparing , Mr. Chairman . MR. FOX: I understand there 's also some medical surveillance in the different industries .

Can the Ministe r indicate whether there is any medical personnel on his staff in the Workplace Safety and Health Divisi on? MR. MacM J"STER: If the member would excuse me , I have a document which I'm trying to just familiarize myself with . It has a lot of the numbers that the member has asked for but I want to get it corr ect before I . . . ! Inspections , in industry there was 2,909 and in construct ion there 211 . was 3,851 . Re-inspections in industry 1,133 and in construction 1' Complaints investigated in industry 178; in construction 62. Accidents investigated in industry 108; in construction 68.

Meetings with industr y 1,317 and with constr uction 286 ; training and education 186 with industry and 70 with construction. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Kildonan . MR. FOX: Yes, Mr. Chairman . I wonder if the Minister could explain to what extent there is a liaison between Workers ' Compensation and the Workplace Safety Health Division . I would surmise that some of the requests came in through the fact that there were accidents which were related to Workers ' Compensation and others that would be just normal complaints .

Can he give us a brie f description of what takes place between the two departments? MR. MacMJ,STER : Well, by and large , the major ity of the accidents and investigations that we carry out are direct , not through the Compensation Board , but we do have a good ongoing relationsh ip and certainly communicate back and forth with the Compensation Board . MR. FOX: The ones that take place directly ; would the information then be passed on to Workers ' Compensation , because after all they are in the business of having a safe workplace , as well , in order to keep the coensation claims down? MR.

MacM~~STER : I und erstand information flows reasonably freely back and forth between the two bodies . MR. FOX: 1 have a particular interest in the noise pollution area . Can the Minister give us a brief description of what is tak ing place in respect to that? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman , if the member would look at 3.(a), that 's Industrial Hygiene ; that's 4144 :

• Friday, May 11, 1979 where that will be discussed . Right now it's just strictly the four people in the Administration group . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Yes, Mr. Chairperson. It is my understanding that the four positions in the Administration group that we were talking about would be the Director; the Secretary , which would also be known as an Administrative Secretary; the Administrative Officer and one Education and ~· Research Officer. Can the Minister indicate if those are the positions that we 're talking about, in specific? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR.

MacMASTER The two Training Officers come in there, Mr. Chairman, internal and external. MR. COWAN: Thank you , Mr. Cha irperson. We're talking about four positions. The Minister has indicated that there are two Training Officers, internal and external. What would be the other two, then? MR. MacMASTER: The member said them in the first place : the Director and the Secretary. MR. COWAN: The Director and the Secretary and two Training Officers .

So the Administ rative Officer , which was included last year as part of this department - now I don't know whether it was a funded position or not , but it was on the books - and the Education and Research Off icer; those did not exist last year and do not exist this year. Does this indicate that we have a d ifferent priorization here , that we have the emphasis being taken off education and research and put on training?

And would the Minister please outline, seeing as how we have a difference this year , could the Minister please outline the responsibilities of each of the people that come under this heading , the Administrator, the Secretary and the two Tra ining Officers , and would he please also take opportunity to outline responsibilities as perceived - because we didn't have people in the positions - as perceived for the Administrative Officer last year and the Education and Research Officer last year. MR. MacMASTER: The one position , the Internal Training Officer - I don 't know if that will be the final title .

One title I have here is a Technical Development Officer , who will be internally training our people and , if we wish for a term , the External Officer will be the person that's going in the fields , working with Safety Committees . MR.

COWAN: Yes, well , perhaps because of the changes that have been made and perhaps because we were cut short on these Estimates last year and it's incumbent upon us to familiarize ourselves as fully as possible, right at the beginning , with what these persons are doing, can the Minister then go over what the responsibilities of the Director, and the Secretary is also an Administrative Assistant , so we'd like those full responsib ilities . And can he explain to us what were the perceived responsibilities of the Administrative Officer and the Education and Research Officer , because I am concerned.

The reason I ask this , Mr. Chairperson, is I am concerned that we are seeing a shift and we are seeing a shift away from research , which is a very integral part and a very important part of Safety and Health . And ther e i s not enough research done by industry. I can make that categorical statement and no fear of being contradicted; there is not enough technical research done to protect the worker s i n t he wo rkp lace from the hazards , the tox ins, the modes of operation which have proven to be unsafe over th e years.

And that is a very important field because that prevents acciden ts, and tha t's what I interpret the whole purpose of this Workplace Safety and Health Division to be, to cre ate wo rking conditions or to change existing working conditions that act to their utmost to prevent the occurrence of accidents , and also ill health . So it concerns me that we may have had a shift away from that , and, for that reason , I would like a fuller explanation of what is happen ing in this particu lar part of the Estimates .

And it concerns me also because last year - and I don't have the Estimates before me for last year so I'm going to have to recite from memory - I belie ve this department was called Workplace Safety and Health, Education and Research . And I can look it up , but it had that dua l title and this year it's just called Workplace Safety and Health. Oh, excuse me, last year it was Workplace Safety and Health, Research and Education and this year we leave out the Research and Education. So I'm concerned that we're seeing different prior izations occur ring and I would like the Minister to clarify that. 4145

Friday, May 11, 1979 MR. MacNIASTER: Well , I can only surmise and guess at what the duties of the two that were not filled were, but the Administration Services Officer , those functions will be carried out and the Research and Education Office's position was never filled. But the positions that we'r e going to be filling as we go through our Estimates are certainly going to fill that void.

The Techn ical Developmemt Office r, the internal person, will be keeping himself abreast of new developments and he will be developing and expanding the capabilities of divisional staf f through intern al training, prepar ing abstracts and summaries of technical information for circulation to divisional staff and monitoring existing regulations and codes of practice to ensure their technical accuracy and competency is maintained ; preparation of new regulations and codes of practice unde r general policy ; development of investigaive reports on current and topical technical workplace problems ; assisting and training education

section . He will act as a liaison with the Research Branch to co-ordinate projects which we may undertake. He will be assist ing in putting together the newsletter that goes out. He will certainly be checking on the efficiency and procedure evaluations of the division 's systems . That is gene rally the technical officer 's duties , Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. COW.AN: This is the first I have heard of a newsletter. Perhaps the Minister can be more specific as to which newsletter he is talking about. MR. MacMASTER: I mentioned before , Mr.

Chairman , that we are going to be developing bulletins that are going to be going out. MR. COWAN: Yes, a newsletter implies that it is on a regular basis, monthly or bi-monthly or whatever , but on a systematic and organized basis . Is the Minister implying that it will be such or will it be individual , isolated bulletins that go out from time to time as the need arises? MR. MacMASTER: At the begi nni ng it will be an isolated system and we hope to work into a regula r, at the very least monthly , bulletin. MR.

COWAN: Could the Minister also supply us with the names of those persons presently on the Workplace Safety and Health Advisory Council and when their term expires. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Fox-Decent is the Chairman ; Mr. Potemy is one of the employer reps ; Mr. Moore is another employer rep; Norma Dawn Thompson is an employer rep; Bob Biggar is an employee 's rep ; Eugene Kostyra is an employee rep; Mr. Thibeault is an employee rep; J. Fraser is a representative of techn ical and professional bodies ; Mr. Ward is the same; Mr. Deeter is the same.

Two have expired as far as appointment goes but the appointments were made at pleasure so there is no true expi ry date ; they can continue and have so been advised . MR. COWAN: Thank you , Mr. Chairperson. They are cont inuing in their previous appointments. Are they continuing for a set period of time? Do they know how long they will be on that board for? Have there been any arrangements made for their replacement or indeed , is the Minister expecting to replace those persons on the Council? MR. MacMASTER: They have been informed that they are contin uing at pleasure, which means it is on-going . MR.

COWAN: I would ask the Minister if that also implies that while it is on-going , it can be withdrawn at any time by the Minister , if he can so indicate? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, that is the case . MR. COWAN: Mr. Chairperson , if there has been one major failing in my mind of this government , it has been its failure to utilize the Workplace Safety and Health Advisory Council to the best of its ability and to the best of the ability of the members of that Council. That Council was formulated , was intended , and I believe did play a very useful role in the beginning.

But then for some reason unbeknownst to us, they stopped functioning; they just totally stopped meeting ; they stopped talking; they stopped advising the previous Minister and this Minister was in the portfolio for I don 't kn ow how long, but for some period of time , before they met again . As a matter of fact , Mr . Chairperson , it wasn't until we brought this subject up in this House , the good and loyal opposition that we are , 4146 ..

• Friday, May 11, 1979 and said the law is about to be broken - this Council is to meet every year and it has not met in a year because, according to their minutes, Mr. Chairperson, they met on February 3, 1978 - that was their eleventh meeting, their eleventh meeting since their first meeting which was in · September of 1977. So it was a fairly active committee . Excuse me, February 24 of 1978 was their twelfth meeting and their thirteenth meeting is March 16, 1979 and in between , nothing , absolutely nothing. And was it because they did not want to meet? No. Was it because they had nothing to say? No.

Why did they not meet , Mr. Chairperson? They did not meet because for some reason the previous Minister and this Minister were - and it's unfathomable to me why they would do it - were discouraging that meeting because they have - I'll just read briefly from the minutes of the thirteenth meeting which the Minister, I'm certain, has available to him. Without quoting directly, they wanted to know, what were they there to talk about after over a year? Why had that meeting been called after over a year ; was it because of pressure in the House? Sure it was because of pressure in the House.

It was a precipitating factor ; there can be no other cause. We brought it up in the House and all of a sudden we see them scrambling to have a meeting . So the members of that Council wanted to know, are we meeting because the government is going to be embarrassed, the Minister is going to be embarrassed if we don't meet, or are we meeting to perform a function? And I believe the Minister when he tells me he doesn't want paper committees and paper councils ; I honestly and sincerely believe him .

I recognize the Minister to be a man of some action and yet here we have a total and complete diametrically opposed policy where we have a council that wants to meet and it's not. They asked , why was the meeting not called before then? They didn't know. They had made representation time and time again to the Minister of Labour, the preceding Minister of Labour, and this Minister of Labour, saying we want to meet ; we have input; we have value. We want to do something to make this Act work better. And, Mr. Chairperson, the Act was not working well while all of this was going on.

The Act was not working well; the Division was not working well and the safety and health of our workers were suffering because of that. They wanted to know, what was the status of the committee? You know, when you stop a committee for a full year, when you just totally cut a committee off and the committee says we want to meet and the Minister says no, then they want to know why do they exist, what is their status, why are they being around? They had written time and time again to the Minister asking for meetings .· What was this committee doing? Why did they want those meetings? Why did they feel functional?

Let's run through their Minutes to begin with. The first and the second meetings they talked about considering and developing the standards by which this program can be judged a success or a failure, because it is a new program . And new programs fail, and new programs succeed. It happens both ways. And they wanted to know, what criteria are we going to use to judge the performance of the Workplace Safety and Health Act and the performance of the Workplace Safety and Health Division . And they didn't get an answer. They were told that it would be discussed in further meetings.

Perhaps the Minister can give us an answer during the course of these Estimates, upon which criteria is the program being judged , and how does he feel it's performing. They wanted to know how it could be insured that industries under federal jurisdiction would be coming under the Manitoba Workplace Safety and Health Act. And I think that's a problem that the Member for Flin Flon brings up consistently in regard to a federal industry in his own constituency, the HBM and S mine, and it still hasn't been resolved. These Minutes are dated September 30, 1977. And it still hasn't been resolved.

So the committee was trying, the committee was trying in that respect , and still hasn't received its answer. I think it's interesting that on the first meeting of the Workplace Safety and Health Advisory Council, September 19, 1977, it was agreed that they would be having meetings on a bi-weekly basis, they'd be scheduled for Friday mornings, and then they said if the workload necessitated , they would meet on a weekly basis, and possibly for a full day .

What happened to break down that process which was functioning for a year, right up until February 24, 1978, when suddenly the whole thing came apart at the seams? Why did that happen? What changed in the government to make them not want to have this council meet? On their third meeting they discussed the problem posed by lack of information regarding the toxic nature of various substances and the potential hazards of various machines and processes, and if there has been a subject which has· taken up the time of this House this Session, it has been indeed that very subject itself.

What about these toxic substances. You know, we'?Ve talked about a couple . We've talked about PCBs very briefly, Polychlorinated Biphenyls; we will talk about them more because the problem hasn't gone away. The problem hasn't gone away. But we have occupied most of our time talking about lead, because that was a very major problem. And the government did, at every step of the way, too little, too late in regard to that one item, lead . And I can assure you, Mr. Chairperson, that there are numerous other toxic substances existing 4147

Friday, May 11, 1979 in our workplaces that aren't being addressed by this council or by this government, or by the Workplace Safety and Health Division. The figures vary, let's say 15,000 toxic chemicals in the workplaces; we have human data on 100 of them , we know the effect that they have in 100 out of 15,000 cases, and they 're coming into the workplace at an incredible rate of three to 15,000 a year, depending on who you believe .

New chemicals, many of which , 5 years from now, 2 years from now, 1 year from now, 20 and 30 and 40 years from now , will show up as very harmful , harmful chemicals that we have been subjecting ourselves to, as workers and as a population , because what goes in the workplace comes out into the environment, that we've been subjecting ourselves to for far too long , and we won't know the answers . We won 't know the answers and we will have to suffer the consequences. And it's not a gamble I'm willing to take and it shouldn't be a gamble that the Minister is going to take .

And th is council wanted to direct its attention to that problem and it was begged off . It was told , do not meet , you can't meet , as a matter of fact. And that's not a charge that can 't be substantiated . They did not meet , even though they had many requests emanating from members on that council for meetings . On October 28, 1977, very close to a historic date in this province - I notice the Chairperson is shaking his head , yes indeed - and indeed it was a historic dat8 for many reasons .

But just a few days after that historic date , the council said that they wanted to aim at a thorough study of the iss es affecting safety and health so that they could help guide the decisions of the Minister and the departmental staff responsible for the administration of the legislation and the program. And yet we see that sort of assistance, freely offered assistance , turned down by the pre vious Minis ter and by this Minister, because he is not free from guilt on this . He was in office for quite some time befo re they met, or he was in that particular office as Minister . We find that Mr.

Thibault , one of the members of the Advisory Council and the President of the Manitoba Federation of Labour8 a very significant group within the province, and one that this Minister should take heed , to listen to, and I'm certain he does - at that time indicated that the " MFL expresses deep concern that the facilities necessary for the full and effective function of the Workplace Safety and Health Act are being delayed by the investigative action of the government task force.

" That's a fairly damning statement , that the health and safety of the workers of this province was being put at greater risk due to the task force , due to the task force of this government. And yet, for as damaging as that statement it is, it is not as damaging as the fact that they stopped their meetings shortly thereafter , four or five months thereafter , and didn 't continue for over a year .

And auain, they wanted to go through the Safety and Health Act , and it was noted that at present there is little done in the way of legal control of toxic substances in the province of Manitoba, an item which has taken and will take much of our time and much of our attention . There was some question as to the committees - and we will discuss that - in the eighth meeting, or the tenth meeting , excuse me . And then we start to see problems starting to crop up. We get an inkling of discontent and unrest .

The council itself was talking to the Deputy Minister of Labour and at that time it was suggesed that the number of meetings of the Advisory Council be reduced to one a month, from bi-weekly, possibly weekly , to one a month . And one reason that it was suggested for that by the Deputy Minister at that time , was the fact that there was a need to cut , this reduction was necessitated by a need to cut departmental expenditures. Now, how expensive can the meeting of an Advisory Council be? I'll ask the Minister to answer that question when I'm finished , if he would . What is the cost of having this council meet?

How expensive is it? I know there is certa in lost time paid. What does it amount to? What does it amount to to rent a room for the one morning every two weeks? And they wanted to know , there was a very lengthy discussion among the

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-3-59b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 3rd hansardpdf 59b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f8367a2ad267b175c20f4b809a22285b775bd6db

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