Manitoba Hansard — 25 May 1999 (Sitting 32, 36th Legislature, 5th Session)

36-5-32

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLIX No. 32 - 1:30 p.m., Thesday, May 25, 1999

Member ASHTON, Steve BARREIT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James DRIEDGER, Albert DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen FRIESEN, Jean GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY,J im MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin, Hon. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Rob lin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River St. Boniface Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

16 63 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 25, 1999 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Commi ttee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Ch airperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit agai n. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. Standing Committee on Law Amendments First Report Mr.

Jack Penner (Ch airperson of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments): Madam Speaker, I would like to present the First Report of the Committee on Law Amendments. An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense. Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments presents the following as its First Report. Your committee met on Wednesday, May 19, 1999, at 10 a.m. and at 2:30 p.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Assembly to consider bills referred. At the 10 a.m. meeting, your committee elected Mr. Dyck as its Vice Chairperson.

Your committee heard representation on bills as follows: Bill 27-The Essential Services Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les services essentiels Don Fotti - President, Emergency Response Service Employees Association of Winnipeg (Paramedics) Wes Shoemaker and David Shepherdson - City of Winnipeg Janice Johnson -Private Citizen Ian Macintyre- Manitoba Teachers' Society Ray Orr - Private Citizen Alex Forrest- United Firefighters of Winnipeg Jon Gerrard - Leader of the Liberal Party in Manitoba Your committee has considered: Bill 27-The Essential Services Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les services essentiels and has agreed to re port the same with the following amendment: MOTION: THAT

section 3 of the Bill be struck out and the following substituted: Coming into force 3 This Act comes into force on a day fixed by proclamation. Mr. Penner: I move, seconded by the honourable member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger), that the committee report now be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Flood Conditions Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): I have a statement for the House. Madam Speaker, we have seen additional heavy rain this past long weekend in southwestern Manitoba, and it has worsened the flooding of agricultural lands in the entire area,

1664 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1999 not only the areas next to the Souris and its tributaries. We now have an estimated two million acres of agricultural land in the Souris basin that are under water or so soggy that the land cannot be worked, and recent rains will further delay the return to normal conditions. Some new road washouts have been reported, and there is heavy rain near the U.S. border. Levels along the Souris River are cresting between the U.S. boundary to Napinka at close to mid-April crests.

From Hartney to Wawanesa water levels will rise another two tenths of a foot in the next few days. The levels at Souris and Wawanesa are expected to be higher than mid-April. These forecasts are based on favourable weather conditions for the next ten days, and according to Environment Canada, no precip is expected in the next few days but there is a chance of thunder showers later in the week. So we are watching closely to provide whatever assistance can be made use of in the valley.

In other areas the heavy runoff in the upper Pembina River from the weekend rains has caused creeks to rise in that area with significant flooding that will continue for several weeks, especially in the area between Rock Lake and Swan Lake. Rock Lake is presently cresting. The Assiniboine River is rising between Brandon and Portage la Prairie and is flooding some low-lying land near the river. The Portage diversion will continue to be used to reduce the flooding from Portage la Prairie to Winnipeg. The Red River is now near its crest again, and further rises should be no more than a few inches.

So, needless to say, Madam Speaker, what is now needed is hot sun and drying winds for farmers in the southwestern and western part of the province. *

(1335) Mr. Stan Struthers (Da uphin): I would like to thank the Minister of Natural Resources for the statement that he has made to the House today concerning the terrible flooding conditions that we have throughout parts of Manitoba.

I had an opportunity last week to tour through the Pembina Valley and take a look at the Pembina River and how high that is and also to tour through the southwest part of the province, several of the R.M.s that have now declared themselves emergency zones, and take a look at the amount of water that is collecting in those areas through rain, through runoff, through drainage, through all of the factors that have contributed to what is really an awful situation in the southwest part of our province, and not just the southwest but in other parts as wel l.

Madam Speaker, I want to point out particularly in the Pembina Valley, Rock Lake, Pelican Lake, Swan Lake, all at very high levels. I talked there with one farmer whose cattle were hemmed right in up against the wall of the Pembina Valley, a farmer who was forced to buy extra hay for his cattle because of the wet conditions, an expense that this farmer has not normally had to make, along with the extra expenses involved in bringing hay to his farm.

I also talked to another young farmer who farms a century farm-it has been in his family for 12 0 years in the Pembina Valley area-w ho may have to give up the farm because he has faced several years of flooding, he has lost hundreds of dolla rs in anhydrous ammonia that he has put down on a crop last fall which is now being washed away. These are the kinds of cases that need to be looked at, Madam Speaker. In the Pembina Valley as well, many obstructions in the river are causing havoc for farmers, holding back water and causing damage on their fields and to their cattle productions.

A Ducks Unlimited dam in particular is causing havoc, and a bridge that was recently con structed is really constricting the flow of the river in the area. These are things I think the government needs to take a look at and needs to act upon. In the southwest part of the province, again hay land, I particularly remember looking down at Oak Lake and Plum Lake, Maple Lake and seeing the original outline of those lakes being way, way inland with water flowing outside of the original, the usual limits of that lake, causing massive amounts of hardship for farmers who usually take hay from the area.

May 25, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 65 Madam Speaker, I want to make sure that we encourage the provincial government to work with the local counc ils in providing immediate drainage for those areas, working with them in terms of a compensation package to help out farmers who have incurred expenses because of this flood, and also to provide long-term relief in terms of licensing and enforcement of the water rights that exist in this province. Thank you very much. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the 19 99-2000 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Department of Rural Development. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the Supplementary Information for Departmental Expenditures for the Manitoba Status of Women. Hon.

Mike Radcliffe (Minister charged with the adm inistration of The Civil Service Act): Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure today to table the Supplementary Estimates for Legislative Review of the Employee Benefits and Other Payments of the Civil Service Commission. Hon. Shirley Render (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the Public Utilities Board Annual Report for 19 98. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 26-The Physiotherapists Act Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mrs.

Mitchelson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 26, The Physiotherapists Act (Loi sur les physiotherapeutes ), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. *

(1340) Bill 202-The Fire Departments Arbitration Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), that Bill 202, The Fire Departments Arbitration Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur !'arbitrage relatif aux services de pompiers et modifications correlatives-my French is not very good, Madam Speaker, obviously-be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. I should have practised my second language. Motion presented. Mr. Reid: Madam Speaker, by way of just a brief explanation, this bill will move The Fire Departments Arbitration Act into the 19 90s by removing the old gender-specific language and now acknowledging that firefighters can be both men and women. This bill will also provide binding arbitration for the City of Winnipeg ambulance service employees.

This will ensure that the residents of Winnipeg continue to receive uninterrupted emergency services while providing paramedics and the City of Winnipeg the opportunity to resolve contracts fairly. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have this afternoon twenty Grades 11 and 12 students from River East Collegiate, and from the Muriel Snowden International School in Boston, Massachusetts, who are here with the Maple Leaf Exchange Program.

The students are under the direction of Mr. Robert Carpenter and Ms. June Robinson. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson). Also, we have thirty-two Grades 4, 5 and 6 students from Montrose School under the direction of Mrs. Judy Harapiak. This school is

1666 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 19 99 located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Radcliffe). We also have forty-eight Grades 5 and 6 students from Landmark Elementary School under the direction of Mr. Russ Dirks, Mr. Tom Koop and Mrs. Janice Peters. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson). Also, we have twenty-seven Grade 9 students from St. Boniface Diocesan High under the direction of Mr. Marcel Lizotte. This school is located in the constituency of St. Boniface.

On behalf of all honourable members, welcome you this afternoon. Bill 202-The Fire Departments Arbitration Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Madam Speaker: It appears, although I am not absolutely convinced, that the wrong motion was read. So I will reread it into the record to ensure that it is accurate. It has been moved by the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), seconded by the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), that leave be given to introduce Bill 202, The Fire Departments Arbitration Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur !'arbitrage relatif aux services de pompiers et modifications corn!latives), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. * (1 345) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Flood Condi tions Impact on Farmers Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, over two million acres of farmland may not be seeded this year due to the flooding that has taken place, as outlined by the minister a few moments ago in his statement. This could dramatically af fect over 3, 000 producers here in Manitoba.

We know that there was more rain over the weekend, and we know from the minister's statement that we all should hope for good weather. I would like to ask the First Minister (Mr. Filmon): what are the contingency plans for so many producers that are so directly affected and impacted by this flooding? Hon. Harry Eons (Minister of Agric ulture): Madam Speaker, I this morning met with the executive of the Manitoba agricultural producers organization to discuss the issue that is of very serious concern to all of us in Manitoba. Regrettably, the weather did not let up in that region over the weekend.

I also had a luncheon meeting with the chairman of the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation. It is simply too early at this stage to assess the overall situation, but I want the House to be assured that all agencies involved in farmer protection, essentially the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation-! know that my colleague the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura), along with his organi zations, have been in the region not once but on numerous occasions and are monitoring the situation on a daily basis. Drainage Issues Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition ): can appreciate the answer from the minister, but he knows that producers want to know specifics that will be available to them . I know members opposite met with producers over the weekend as well as along with our member, the member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers), on this issue, and they really want to know where they stand and where the government is going. Madam Speaker, there is a real concern we are hearing with the drainage from neighbour to neighbour and from rural municipality to rural municipality.

The flood report, the Water Com mission report, last year, tabled in this House, talked about this issue as well, calling on the provincial government to take leadership. Is the provincial government taking leadership on these drainage issues on behalf of the situation in that area of the province now and in potential areas in the future?

May 25, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 67 Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Yes, Madam Speaker, I certainly indicated previously in this House and am glad to indicate again that we are prepared to work with the municipalities and the individuals where emergency situations arise. But I think the Leader of the Opposition is raising a much bigger pict ure, which is the enforcement of drainage by-laws, whether it is a by-law that the municipality is enacting or whether it is under the various water acts within the province.

I have indica ted publicly several times that the province and the municipalities must work together to deal in an organized and planned manner with this or there will be downstream flooding that will become uncontr ollable. There are many examples of where that co-operation has been excellent, but there are situations that we are well aware of where the drainage acts are being challenged in the courts. * (1 350) Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, I was referring specifically to Recommendation 37 in the Water Commission report dealing with the flooding in the Red River Valley two years ago and the conditions under which the province would assume responsibility for emergency manage ment from the local municipality dealing with drainage. I was wondering, after that report had been tabled, what action the government had taken in this regard and its application to the flooded areas now that we have raised.

A further report, Recommendation 35 and Recommendation 21 in the interim report from the Water Commission, recommends that reimbursement levels should be specified at the time the forecast is issued at a required level based on a formula. Given the Minister of Agriculture's (Mr. Enns) response and the statement today from the Minister of Natural Resources, I would ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): has there been any implementation of that recommendation by the government so that people would know more specifically what the reimbursement levels will be? Mr.

Cummings: Madam Speaker, there are a number of initiatives that we have undertaken as a result of the Water Commission report. In remembering the recommendation that the Leader of the Opposition references, it seems to me that we have always moved prudently in terms of any infrastructure that has been involved. We have always acted in a co operative manner with the municipalities in order to deal with the issues as they arise.

When disaster or near disaster situations arise, that open line of communication and effort to work co-operatively with the affected areas I think adequately demonstrates the willingness of this administration to assist in any way possible. Frankly, some of the damages that occur and are occurring currently in the southwestern part of the province are of an unprecedented nature in terms of overland flooding, as opposed to any works that may have been established on behalf of the municipality or the province. So we continue to offer them daily assistance in any way we can.

Flood Conditions Compensation -Farmers Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, the farming situation in southwestern Manitoba is certainly very serious given that a large portion of land will not be seeded this year. Many farmers did not qualify for AIDA, many have taken out provincial recovery loans and many are covering huge debts. Without a crop this year, many will be out of business. The heavy rains are also affecting other parts of the province but not quite so seriously.

I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture what steps his government is taking to address this situation given that there is no current plan or program in place to compensate farmers. Hon.

Harry Enns (Minister of Agric ulture): Madam Speaker, I want to be very careful how I answer this question because memories are still very much with us that just about this time just a few short years ago, large acreages of our prime agricultural land in the Red River Valley were still under water, and, yet, in that tremendous entrepreneurial spirit that our farmers exhibit, at the end of the seeding season fully 97 percent, 98 percent of that land was in fact seeded. This is a different situation, and I understand that. I have every empathy for the situation that the farmers in southwestern Manitoba face. But to

1668 LEGIS LATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1999 answer specifically these kinds of questions at this point in time when there are still three, four, four and a half, perhaps five weeks, weather permitting, for seeding operations to commence is premature. That is not avoiding the question; that is simply having the experience of a number of flooding situations in this province. We have to be able to assess the damage before govern ments can be in a position to respond. Ms. Wowchuk: We certainly recognize that the situation in the southwest part of the province is different from the Red River Valley.

But I would like to ask the minister: given that the government eliminated the penalty on the extended crop insurance program during the Red River flood, recognizing that they needed extended periods of time to seed, will the government consider waiving that penalty in this situation as well so that people are not penalized when they have to seed into the extended period after the deadlines? * (13 55) Mr. Enos: As I already indicated, both the chairman of Manitoba Crop Insurance and the general manager, Mr.

Neil Hamilton, were in the area over the weekend, on Friday, and these and other suggestions that were discussed by the farmers will be given very serious consideration. There are a number of things that the corporation can do in response to the current situation and will do. Let me also add that I am informed, and it pleases me to know, that farmers from areas not as badly stricken, for instance the Red River Valley, are indicating to the Department of Agriculture their willingness to help with equipment, time and experience to help seed that crop should the weather make that possible later on in the season. Ms.

Wowchuk: We appreciate the help that other people are prepared to offer. We know that Manitobans are very considerate about other people in di sastrous situations. But, Madam Speaker, this is a disaster that will put many people out of business if they do not get some assistance. I would like to ask the minister whether he will consider the fact that we have to extend that crop insurance and we have to look at the areas that will still be under water where farmers will get no crop off, crop insurance will not help them, and there have to be some plans being made now. Are you making plans to help these people out?

Mr. Enos: My government has shown unprecedented levels of support for not just farmers but people in need, whether it is small businesses, homeowners in the Red River Valley or wherever that may occur. I have every con fidence that that kind of consideration and support will be forthcoming under these circumstances. Health Care System Government Polls/Surveys Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kild onan): Madam Speaker, several years ago when the province was in the midst of a major crisis of waiting lists, the New Democratic opposition set up a help line; we wrote hundreds of letters; we did everything we could to try to educate the government that there was a problem in health care. The government, when they finally realized there was a problem, what has the government done? They have taken polls at public taxpayers' expense, and they have had an ad campaign at public taxpayers' expense.

When one looks at the polls that were taken by the government, it is clear they were politically motivated, designed more to try to improve the health care of the Tory party rather than the health care of Manitobans. I would like to ask the minister if that is not the case. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, the member for Kildonan is wrong with most of what he puts on the record. He and I discussed this issue during Estimates over the course of the last week.

At least I have his agreement that there is a time when government should be providing infor mation, and I think he basically agreed through the Estimates process that it is important to provide information to Manitobans on our health care system. He disagrees I believe with the approach of doing that. I have found time and time again, whether it is out meeting with people, whether it is through surveys or polls or anything that is being done, that the people of Manitoba want to know information about their

May 25, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 16 69 health care system. It is incumbent upon the government to provide that information. That is why we produced a brochure that went into every home right across Manitoba, to provide information on what is happening in the health care system, what some of the next steps are. So, again, I think it is very important that Manitobans receive quality, accurate information on what is happening in their health care system. Mr.

Cbomiak: Madam Speaker, in light of the minister's response, can he explain to the House why a question on the government Conservative poll that said people who attack the Manitoba health care system are more concerned with their own agenda than with improving the level of health care, what has that got to do with the minister's education campaign and improving the lot of health care of Manitobans? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to go through that poll question by question with the member for Kildonan.

Again, it provides an awful lot of information about a number of issues relative to our health care system that is very important in terms of the kind of information that should be provided to Manitobans and in terms of helping us determine the priorities of Manitobans, both in terms of their perceptions and their needs.

So, again, the member basically agreed last week that there is a need to provide information, and we will agree to disagree in terms of how to provide that information, but it is very important that Manitobans get information on their health care system to know why it is changing, how it is changing and what the impacts are on the m. We believe in providing information, and we will continue to do that. * (1 400) Mr. Cbomiak: Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister, who had the distinction of polling last on the government poll for credibility in health care.

But notwithstanding that, given that the Premier has talked about a new ethical standard for this government and it is about time that it starts, I wonder if the Premier will indicate to this House that the Conservative Party will reimburse the province for the cost of these political polls and for the cost of these political ads, because what they did was more inclined to try to help the health of the Tory party than the health of the province of Manitoba. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the hypocrisy of the members opposite knows no bounds.

This is the group that wrote the book on government advertising. They spent $2 million advertising the Jobs Fund that does not have one job still in this province today. They spent a half million dollars advertising the benefits of Limestone. Major benefits were simply to get their government re-elected. They hired dozens and dozens of communicators on the public trough just to try and polish their image. Point of Order Mr. Cbomiak: Madam Speaker, Beauchesne's 417 indicates the Premier does not have to answer the question, but he should very much address the issue raised.

I specifically asked the Premier if the Conservative Party would reimburse the government for the political advertising that has been undertaken by the Department of Health, and the Premier, who is apt to do, is living back in the 19 80s, which is his new policy, is not answering the question, is not prepared to deal with the question, and I ask you to call him to order, either deal with the question or let us get on with other questions in Question Period. Madam Speaker: The honourable First Minister, on the same point of order. Mr. Film on: Madam Speaker, on the same point of order.

I know that the members opposite are very reluctant to have anyone talk about their record in government because it was such a dreadful record, which is why they continue to stay on the opposite side. Of course I did not see any of them rush to have the fees paid for the settlement that the people of Manitoba have to pay for one John Bucklaschuk, one of their cabinet ministers who cost us $2 million because of his political actions in the lead-up to the election campaign of 19 86. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, on the same point of order.

1670 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1999 Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, Madam Speaker, this is getting to be an increasing pattern. Those of us who remember the Premier as the Leader of the Opposition, I wonder if he is not rehearsing for that role again. But the question was related specifically to the actions of his government. I think the people of Manitoba would like to hear answers from this Premier, while he still is in that office, on important matters of public record. So I would like to ask you to bring him to order.

Madam Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Kildonan, I would remind the honourable First Minister to respond to the question asked. * * * Madam Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to complete his response. Mr. Film on: Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that the New Democrats, when they were in government, did not reimburse the people of Manitoba for any of their political advertising, this is sheer hypocrisy. That is what I accept it as, and that is what the people of Manitoba recognize it as. Athena Educational Partners Minister' s Review Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): My question is for the Minister of Education. Athena corporation of Montreal is currently negotiating with Manitoba school divisions to bring a daily taping of selected news items combined with commercial advertising into Manitoba class rooms. I wanted to ask the Minister of Education whether or not he has had the opportunity yet, taken the time, to review any of the sample tapings that are going to be broadcast to Manitoba schools. Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): I think that the honourable member, through her Leader, has raised this issue before in an attempt to usurp the powers and responsibilities of school divisions. I think that we need honourable members opposite to be clear, whether they want us to act within our sphere of responsibility or to take over school divisions and all the implications of that. Ms.

Friesen: Would the minister undertake now to review those tapes and to confirm that, although each tape runs 12 minutes, no teacher uses such material with out either debate or reinforcement of ideas, so that what school divisions in fact are saying yes to is not 12 minutes but, conservatively speaking, 20 to 30 minutes a day? Will the minister undertake to review that? Mr. McCrae: I have discussed this matter on a number of occasions, and I am sure I will continue to do so as long as this matter is current and that school divisions are discussing it.

I take an interest in all the things that are going on, but I have not made it my habit to make decisions at this level which ought to be made at local levels. That is why we have school divisions-! think the honourable member understands that-to reflect local concerns and to reflect local issues in local areas. Now some school divisions are looking at the Athena proposal; some are not. That demonstrates the fact that the present system is working. Ms.

Friesen : Would the minister, who is still responsible for curriculum and for hours of schooling in Manitoba, tell the House which areas of curriculum are to be reduced to accommodate the daily half hour of sel ected, single-source news and commercial advertising? Mr. McCrae: Unlike the honourable member and her party, I do not presume to tell school divisions how they are to organize their school year.

We do have certain requirements from the provincial level, and we want to see that those requirements are met so that the whole system of meeting standards and that the tests that flow from that reflect the fact that the work is being done in our schools so that our children can be prepared for the kinds of opportunities that are being made available through the actions of the government of Manitoba for the past 11 years, multiplying many times over the number of job opportunities requiring skills.

May 25, 19 99 LEGIS LATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 16 71 Manitobans are going to be well placed because of new directions, because of parental involvement, because of setting standards and because of testing to those standards, and the school divisions are required to ensure that those directions are met. What they do with the rest of the time that is available to the schools is for them to discuss with their teachers, to discuss with their parent councils and with their school trustees and make decisions based on those discussions. Paramedics Mediation Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Minister of Labour. We in the Liberal Party see the benefits of trying to get both sides working together, seeing the benefits of working with our health care workers. My question for the Minister of Labour is: is the Minister of Labour, given the government is prepared to get involved by bringing in essential services legislation, prepared to talk to both sides and see if in fact they would be prepared to accept a mediator in order to resolve this situation in a positive way in which all sides and particularly Manitobans can win? Hon.

Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable colleague for the question opposite, because it gives me an opportunity to stand up in this Chamber and to tell my honourable colleague that we have been very pleased to appoint Mr. Wally Fox-Decent as a mediator in the current labour dispute with CUPE. We look forward to his report, which, as a preliminary suggestion or request, will be forthcoming on or about the 8th of June. So we can only hope that he will have the positive benefits that he had with the nurses collective bargaining. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the minister comments on my

preamble but does not answer the question. The question to the Minister of Labour: is the minister prepared to do what he has done for other health care professionals, recognizing that the city is asking the province to get directly involved? Is the Minister of Labour prepared to talk to the city, to talk to the union to see if in fact they would be prepared to accept mediation? We are talking about the paramedics. Mr.

Radcliffe: Madam Speaker, I am glad that my honourable colleague opposite elucidated his question, because it gives me an opportunity to explain that in fact the role of the Minister of Labour in government is the keeper of the process. In fact, the government itself does not become involved in issues of substance, but rather when there is a collective bargaining dispute, calls upon different individuals who are a resource to our government on a conciliation basis or on a mediation basis or ultimately on an arbitration basis.

We do believe at the present time that the paramedics are in conciliation and that very good attempts in good faith are being made to solve this issue, and we look forward to a satisfactory completion. *

(1410) Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, my final supplementary then to the Minister of Health, keeping in mind what the Minister of Labour has just said, the keeper of the process. My question to the Minister of Health is: because the Minister of Health is responding to one side, how does that make it the keeper of the process? Does the Minister of Health recognize, as we do, the benefits of seeing if both sides would entertain having mediation, the paramedics and the city? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, surely the member for Inkster understands the collective bargaining process, that right now there is a conciliation officer who has been appointed to work with the two parties. There are still a number of options available to both of the parties, the City of Winnipeg as the employer and the paramedics and the ambulance attendants. They can both request a mediator be appointed, and if that were the case I am sure a mediator would be appointed. They can both request binding arbitration, again, and jo intly go forward to binding arbitration.

There are a number of processes available to ultimately resolve the collective bargaining process.

1672 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA May 25, 1999 We introduced an amendment last week to deal with the very important issue of essential services, the protection of the public when it comes to the important issue of health care services, particularly ambulance services here in the city of Winnipeg. So you have an essential services amendment to deal with the protection of that essential service. At the same time, you have a collective bargaining process underway that still has a number of avenues available to reach a collective agreement through the collective bargaining process.

Manitou, Mani toba Emergency Medical Services Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, again peop le in Manitou are worried about their ambulance services. Their concerns are that it could take up to half an hour or more in response time. When the minister met with his associate deputy minister, Sue Hicks, to receive the interim report of the Emergency Medical Services working group, did they discuss this problem in Manitou, and if so, what solutions can he report to the House coming out of this interim report? Ron.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, I am not sure what the member for Dauphin is ref erring to in terms of an interim report. I indicated to him that we do have a working group of Emergency Medical Services with representation from the regional health authorities, from municipal organizations and from the Department of Health working on a report as it relates to ambulance and emergency services throughout all of Manitoba outside of Winnipeg.

I indicated in this House that I was expecting at the minimum an interim report or a final report sometime very shortly, and I am told that I can expect the final report by around the end of June. Through all of this time, I am well aware that the regional health authorities continue to focus on providing the ambulance services to all of the communities, and they also continue to focus on the importance of the volunteer system within our ambulance system, Madam Speaker. Mr. Struthers: Madam Speaker, that does not give the level of support to people in Manitou that they would like to hear.

If this minister then has not received this interim report, can he indicate to the House when he will receive that report or when he is expecting a final report? Can he clear up some of this confusion? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I am not sure the member was listening to my first response, but currently the distribution of emergency medical services throughout Manitoba under the RHAs has not changed. There are currently some 88 licensed EMS delivery sites outside of the city of Winnipeg, and they continue to focus on providing that very important service.

As I indicated to the member for Dauphin, there is a committee that has been struck to provide recommendations on the provision of emergency medical services outside of Winnipeg, and I am now expecting their full report by the end of June. Mr. Struthers: Madam Speaker, then why will this minister not indicate to regional health authorities that he will not approve plans to amalgamate and reduce emergency medical services to the community of Manitou at least until he hears from this Emergency Medical Services working group whenever it is going to report? Mr.

Stef anson: Again, Madam Speaker, as I have indicated to the member for Dauphin. RHAs, the regional health authorities, are represented on the Emergency Medical Services working group along with municipal organizations, and they continue to focus on providing ambulance services until that final report is submitted and until we determine what those recommendations are and how to deal with this very important issue on a go-forward basis.

As we have said in this House on many occasions, maintaining the strong volunteer commitment and volunteer base we have throughout all of Manitoba is a very important part of any changes that will be put in place on a go-forward basis for our ambulance services. Public Accounts Committee Reforms Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, in the March 31, '97, report of the Provincial Auditor and the March '98 report of

May 25, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 73 the same Auditor, the Auditor made strong recommendations about the absolutely dismal state of Manitoba's Public Accounts committee. He said it complies the least of all provinces in Canada with the guidelines, and he recommended strongly that action be taken to reform this committee. Can the Minister of Finance indicate why absolutely nothing has been done on two successive reports of the Provincial Auditor to have this committee's function strengthened and brought in line with other provinces? Hon.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, the member for Crescentwood is factually incorrect in his assertions. We have attempted to have work done at the committee level with the members of the opposition, and they have yet to show any interest in developing some plans regarding the Provincial Auditor's report. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, can the minister explain why the previous minister made a commitment to get this process going more than a year ago? He has broken that commitment.

Will this Finance minister do the same thing and break any commitment he makes in regard to the Pubic Accounts committee? Mr. Gilleshammer: I am assured that our House leader has communicated with the opposition an interest in developing some proposals, and we have yet to hear back from them. Mr. Sale: Will the minister, who knows that this side of the House offered co-operation two years ago, last year, last February, finally take some action, call a committee meeting, set up the committee to modernize the accounts? Will he be accountable for a change, Madam Speaker? Mr.

Gilleshammer: Madam Speaker, as I indicated in my first answer, the member for Crescentwood is factually incorrect, and we have made some attempts to have this committee called and have yet to hear from the House leader of the official opposition. Versatile Farm Equipment Impact of Case Corporation Sale Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, New Holland owned by Fiat has bought Case Corporation. Case operates a heavy-duty tractor plant in North Dakota with similar operations to the Versatile plant here in Manitoba.

This purchase represents both an opportunity, we believe, or a potential risk to the workers in the plant here in Manitoba. Has the Premier been in touch with the owners of Versatile to explore the positive opportunities for Manitoba and deal with the potential risk for this new takeover? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I have, during the past few days, obviously been involved in the Western Premiers' Conference and have not been at my desk since the announcement was made. Having said that, we have over the years established an excellent relationship with New Holland.

I have met with their principals, including their CEO, at their head office in London on several occasions. We have maintained, through that process, such a good relationship that they closed down a factory in Gent, Belgium, and moved their two-wheel drive tractor plant here to Manitoba. Other measures were made in recognition of the high quality and the work done here as well as the competitiveness of our economy.

So we will continue to follow up on that matter using the good relationship that we have built with them to ensure that we do everything possible to tum this into an even better opportunity for the Manitoba plant. * (14 20) Mr. Doer: We look forward to the job level of that plant returning to the 1,10 0 jobs hopefully in the future with these potential opportunities. Over a hundred Manitoba firms supply materials to the Versatile plant in this province. Again, the workers at the plant are very concerned.

They are optimistic about the opportunities; they are also concerned about the risk with the situation of plants in the United States owned by Case and possible impact on their jobs.

1674 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 19 99 Has the Premier met with the union representatives, the worker representatives also, to deal with some of their concerns and their ideas of how Manitoba can best put our case forward to ensure a continued employment at the plant and expanded employment at the plant in the future? Mr. Filmon: I am sure that our government would be interested in hearing the views of the union representatives. We know that major companies such as Monarch Industries, Vansco Electronics and others have a very significant stake in the future of the Versatile Ford New Holland plant.

I certainly believe that we will be following up on those opportunities. Mr. Doer: Would the Premier meet directly with the employee representatives, with the auto workers organization, who have a number of ideas of how we can deal with the creative opportunities for Manitoba in the Versatile plant given the situation with the North Dakota plant which they are investigating? Would the Premier be willing to meet with the employee representatives to again have both the approach to management, which the Premier is willing to undertake which we would appreciate, and work with the employee representatives as well? Mr.

Filmon: Given the pressures on my time, I am not certain that I would, but I would say that the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Tweed) or other representatives of government would be happy to do so. Public Housing Income Lim its Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I have raised a number of times with the Minister of Housing the fact that working families living in Manitoba Housing are paying at times more than market rent for their rental apartments. Based on information he gave to me from the devolution agreement which says, and I quote from

Schedule D: in urban areas, housing income limits will be developed at least for one-, two and three-bedroom units for residential accommodation, I want to ask the minister: what is the income limit for a three-bedroom unit in Manitoba Housing, and can he tell us if the commitments under the

schedule have been kept? Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, in the calculation of rental that is charged by Manitoba Housing in our public housing units, it is all based upon the individual's income. The rent is calculated as a percentage of the income. If it is a bachelor unit, it is 25 percent; if it is a family unit, it is 27 percent. So, whether it is a three bedroom or a four bedroom, it is based upon that individual's income. If it is a family unit, like I mentioned before, it would be 27 percent of that individual's income. Ms.

Cerilli: Madam Speaker, it is unclear if the minister does not answer the question because he does not understand it- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose a supplementary question. Ms. Cerilli: I am asking the minister about the requirements through CMHC for housing income limits. I have written him a letter of a family that lives in St. Vital that is paying $7 13 for rent. Can the Minister of Housing explain why the rent for this family in public housing is more than $200 more for a three-bedroom apartment than what they could rent in the market? What is the limit? Mr.

Reimer: Madam Speaker, as I mentioned in my first answer, the rental is based upon a percentage of the income. If a person makes more money, they are naturally going to be paying more rent. You know, it is based on their income. The amount that the member has mentioned is relative to the income that this couple is paying. The market rent that might be available in the area may be less or more, but the rent from Manitoba Housing is based on a percentage. As I mentioned, if the person is making more money or his income is relatively high, the rent that they will pay will be 27 percent of that income. Ms.

Cerilli: I want to ask the minister if he has read the latest copy of West Central Street's magazine which says that Manitoba Housing is like Hotel California. You can check out, but you can never leave. Madam Speaker, I want to ask the minister if he does not understand the problem that

May 25, 19 99 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 75 people who enter Manitoba Housing, who are on social allowance, then they find a job, their income goes up, but because they are paying 27 percent of their rent geared to income, they cannot move. What program is in place by this government to address that problem where now tenants are paying more to Manitoba Housing than they would in the private market? Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, in Winnipeg there are various areas where there are rental accommodations available for people.

If people feel that the rent that is being charged is out of line with what they are wanting to pay because of the percentage that we charge and because of the formula rent, there are private accom modations, there are other accommodations that can be sought out in other areas. But the idea of the percentage rate is a rate that we charge on our rental accommodations, and that is the rate that we have been charging and we will continue to charge. Public Accounts Committee Reforms Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Finance knows full well that it is he who calls the Public Accounts committee. The Minister of Finance tried to give the House information that there had been approaches made asking for such meeting. That is fundamentally untrue. Will the Minister of Finance explain why he and his predecessor have broken commitments to reform the Public Accounts committee? Will he explain why this Public Accounts committee is the worst in Canada and has not met for more than a year? Will he get on his feet and explain the failure of his government in this regard? Hon.

Harold Gilles hammer (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, contrary to what the member has indicated, thes e arrangements are worked out between the House leaders, and I know that approaches have been made to the House leader for the official opposition. My understanding is a significant response has not come back. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, we have been asking for a reform process for more than two years for this accounts committee. What is the government afraid of? Why will it not let Public Accounts function like a standard Public Accounts committee? What is the minister afraid of? Mr.

Gilleshammer: Madam Speaker, the honourable member has never been a great fan of process, and these arrangements are made between the House leaders. My understanding is that the House leader has indicated to the House leader of the official opposition that we are willing to meet and he has not responded at this time. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. * (14 30) Speaker's Rulings Madam Speaker: I have two rulings for the House. The honourable member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) on May 10 , 1999, raised a point of order concerning comments made by the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid).

It was alleged that the comments imputed unworthy motives to the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). What the honourable member for Transcona had said was: "I am not quite clear why the member for Inkster is so sensitive, but perhaps he has an ulterior political motive in mind by taking the steps that he has just done." I am ruling that there was no point of order. After perusing Hansard, in my opinion, the honourable member for Transcona did not impute unworthy motives. On May 13 , 19 99, I took under advisement a point of order raised by the honourable Leader of the official opposition (Mr. Doer).

I had cautioned the honourable Leader of the official opposition about words he had used in Question Period just prior to his raising a point of order. I had cautioned the member only and had not specifically requested that the words be withdrawn. Therefore, the honourable Leader of the official opposition did not have a point of order.

1676 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1999 MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Mennoni te University Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Madam Speaker, recently it was announced that the former Manitoba School for the Deaf facility will become the home of Manitoba's new Mennonite university, with the signing of a $3 .5-million deal between the province and the Mennonite College Federation. Three existing colleges, Menno Simons, the Canadian Mennonite Bible College and Concord College will combine to create the new university.

The establishment of a single Mennonite university has been greatly anticipated by the Mennonite community in Manitoba, and this announcement ensures that plans are moving ahead as scheduled. The Mennonite university will offer degrees, diplomas, certificates, in a wide range of subject areas including religious studies, music, conflict resolution, Third World economic development and social sciences. The establishment of the Mennonite university is a very posit ive develop ment for Manitoba's post-seco ndary education system.

Combining the three existing colleges will give students more options in higher-quality programs, while allowing them the choice to study at a facility that emphasizes Mennonite values and heritage. Post-seco ndary education is increasingly important in today's competitive job market, and I have no doubt that this development will encourage more students to pursue post secondary studies in Manitoba. Economic Growth Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I rise to make a few comments on the serious economic situation we are being faced with in this province today.

In spite of the propaganda from the government, the economic figures that we now have show Manitoba to be below the Canadian average in I 0 out of 13 indicators. We have 13 basic indicators; 10 of them show Manitoba below average, two show us at average, and only one is above the average. The one above the average is unemployment; the other two that are at average is housing starts and weekly earnings. But even there, the level of housing starts is only a pittance compared to the level of the housing starts that occurred in the 19 80s under the previous NDP government.

It is only about a quarter of the level that we experienced at that time. Similarly, with average weekly earnings, we are below the Canadian average. We have sunk below the Canadian average during most of the years of this government. Then, when we look at the 10 indicators below the Canadian average, we find that we are below on a rate of real growth. We are below on the average in the retail trade. These are figures, the latest that we have as of May 14, 1999, the year to date for this year compared to last year. We are below on manufacturing shipments. We are certainly below on population growth.

We are below on employment growth. We are eight out of 10 provinces in the growth of jobs in this country. That is not a record to be satisf ied with. In terms of building permits, we are eight out of 10 provinces. Capital investment, we are second from the bottom, eight out of I 0- pardon me, capital investment, we are nine out of 10. We are the second worst situation in the country, and likewise with construction work. So, Madam Speaker, my message to the government is that they should not delude themselves with their propaganda.

They should look at the economic facts and face the situation that this province is now faced with, and bring forward some policies that are going to improve the standard of living of Manitobans. Thank you. International Missing Children 's Day Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Cha rleswood): Madam Speaker, I would like to speak about an important event which is taking place today. May 25 is recognized as International Missing Children's Day, a day to remember children like Michael Dunahee, Jacob Wetterling, Kristen French and our own Sarah Kelly.

Today, all members of this Chamber were given green ribbons of hope to wear in support of International Missing Children's Day. The green ribbon is a symbol of hope for the return of all missing children. More than 62,000 children were reported missing in Canada in

May 25, 19 99 LEGIS LATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 16 77 19 98. More than 3,700 of those children were from Manitoba. Of the children missing in Manitoba, more than 3,200 ran away from home, three were abducted by strangers and 11 children were abducted by a parent during or after a divorce proceeding. Organizations such as Child Find Manitoba are dedicated to reuniting missing children with their families and to preventing situations like this from occurring. In 1998, over 15 0 volunteers donated some 8,43 8 volunteer hours to Child Find Manitoba.

This is amazing, and their efforts are to be commended for there are many times when dealing with these situations that it is extremely challenging. It is my hope that in the future we see a great reduction or better yet a total elimination in the number of our missing children, whether it is in Manitoba, in Canada or throughout the world. Please join me in finding ways to bring our children home. Thank you, Madam Speaker. * (1 440) Wolseley School Festival of the Arts Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask all members of the Legislature to join with me in congratulating the principal, staff, students and parents of Wolseley School on the success of the first festival of the arts held last week. Over 700 works of art were on display for the community, ranging from literature, theatre, music, sculpture to poetry, water colours, landscapes, still life, portraits and much more.

I particularly enjoyed Ben's poem on Blankie, Sarah's sculpture self-portrait, the river maps in clay, the 16th Century ship, Caitlyn's flowers, water colours and the fantasy animals of Room 1 and the colour dictionary of Room 6. The exhibit reflected all aspects of the curriculum: science, history, language, music and mathematics. It showed us an educational community with curiosity, with research skills, with the ability to co-operate and to reflect on and draw upon its strengths. This has been a year-long effort of the whole school.

The staff clearly worked together and invested much effort in their own professional development. The self-confidence and pride of the students and the genuine delight and interest of parents and community were a tribute to the hard work of all. March Against Racism Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I too wanted to just pay tribute to a special group of people today. We had 200-plus youth that took the walk from Maples Collegiate to the Legislature, and some in fact ran. But what it is about is Maples Collegiate has a unity committee, March Against Racism, which has now gone some four years.

I know the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) has been very supportive of this group. In fact, he was one of the individuals who was running from the front to the back making sure everyone was kept in line and the line continued on. There is just a phenomenal effort that is put on by the unity committee, and I applaud all of their actions and the actions of the 200-plus students who took the time to be able to heighten the awareness of racial attitudes. For those individuals who did not participate in the unity march, they are still made aware of it.

The long term impacts are very positive when we see so many young people getting involved in such a positive way. I know individuals, whether it is the students or the support staff, individuals like Cindy Blicq and others, that the day is well worthwhile, and I think a very positive message is sent. I just applaud all the actions of those who got involved and made the unity march possible. I congratulate them. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, first of all, I understand that there may be a willingness of the House to waive private members' hour today.

Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to waive private members' hour? [agreed] Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, it would be my intention to call, with leave, I believe it is Bill

1678 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 19 99 27, which is the amendment to The Essential Services Act, but I understand that there is not leave of the House to do that. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Does the honourable government House leader wish to have it established on record or not? Mr. Praznik: No, I do not think that is necessary, Madam Speaker; I just wanted to flag that there was not leave of the House, but it was our intention to call it. I would ask if the Speaker could call for second readings Bills 14, 24 and 25. Fol lowing that, I will be moving the motion to go into Committee of Supply.

SECOND READINGS Biii 14-The Amusements Amendment Act Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mrs. Mcintosh), that Bill 14, The Amusements Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les divertissements, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, this is a very short bill, but it will give our Manitoba Film Classification Board important powers to enable it to fulfill its responsibilities to Manitobans. The purpose of Bill 14 is to broaden the scope of The Amusements Act to encompass all current and future electronic formats. In the next few years, it is expected that digital video disks or DVDs will replace videos as the predominant home video format.

When the current act was brought into force, there was no way to anticipate the extent or the speed of the development of video technology. The Film Classification Board can and does classify films exhibited in theatres and retail video stores sold or rented for home use; however, it does not currently classify DVDs or video and computer games. The DVD format is the next generation of optical disk storage technolog y and can hold video, audio and computer data. DVD is expected to supply home entertainment, computer and business information with a single-disk format.

It is anticipated that it will eventually replace audio CD, video tape, laser disk, CD-ROM and perhaps even video game cartridges. With these amendments, the board will be able to classify DVDs and video games. However, this time it is our intent not to introduce a board rating system for video games. Instead, we will be promoting the voluntary use of the entertainment software rating board system or ESRB for classifying video and computer games. This industry rating system is widely used in North America and appears to be very effective in outlining the contents of games.

The government intends to conduct a public information campaign to make parents more aware of the ESRB system and how it can help them determine what is suitable for their children. We will make information on the system available in participating stores through out the province. This bill is a proactive measure that we believe will enable the Film Classification Board to address the classification of all new forms of video entertainment.

It is intended to anticipate entertainment technology developments that could arise in the future and provides the potential for government ratings of video games, if necessa ry, further down the road. This bill will allow our classification system to respond to fast-evolving technol ogy and enable us to support Manitoba parents in monitoring what their children view. Madam Speaker, if there are any questions, I am pleased to answer them. Otherwise, we are pleased to support this bill, and we look forward to moving it on to the committee stage. Thank you. Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 24-The Municipal Amendment Act Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Madam Speaker, I move,

May 25, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 79 seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr. Stefanson) that Bill 24, The Municipal Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les municipalites, be now read a second time and be ref erred to a committee of the House. Motion presented. * (1 450) Mr. Derkach: Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure to introduce for second reading Bill 24, The Municipal Amendment Act. As members of this House know or will recall, our government had the pleasure of heralding in a new municipal act in 19 97. Since then, the new act has served municipal governments very well. However, when legislative acts are completely rewritten, as was The Municipal Act in 19 96, there will be a need to amend and clarify certain parts from time to time.

This ensures that the act continues to serve the needs of Manitobans, and this is the intent, of course, of Bill 24. For example, some of the amendments will accommodate local initiatives by some communities to restructure. Two communities that immediately come to mind are Pine Falls and Ninette. These communities have examined or are in the process of examining and changing the fundamental structure of their communities to enhance their viability and sustainability for the long term.

An amendment is also being proposed to enable Cranberry Portage, a remote community located in the R.M. of Kelsey north of The Pas, the opportunity for self-sufficiency. This amendment would allow more flexibility to the legislation so that it would recognize and adapt to the unique characteristics of that community. In other areas, we are proposing some housekeeping amendments, such as extending the leave-of-absence period for municipal employees elected to council. This would coincide with last year's amendment changing the term of office from three years to four years.

We are also proposing a number of amendments related to the municipal tax sale process. These amendments will clarify the process leading up to and regarding when and how tax sales proceed. In addition, they will balance the interests of property owners who may be at risk of losing their properties with the interests of municipalities that rely on the timely payment of property taxes to fund the delivery of municipal services to residents and property owners. For example, we have strength ened considerably the existing requirements to notify owners of the tax sale.

Under the proposed amendments, tax sales must also be locally advertised and additional notices are required to be posted in the municipality and/or near the property. In addition, it will be required that the first notice of the impending sale be personally delivered to the property owner, with the new requirement for a second notice to go out to the property owner. This will ensure that property owners are given every opportunity to understand and be aware of the serious consequences for them if the proceedings were to continue to the point of a tax sale.

Madam Speaker, the amendments we are proposing would also allow for greater flexibility in the way municipalities and property owners might arrange payment of taxes. Our intent is to ensure that the tax sale option is truly a measure of last resort. Part of the flexibility would be to ensure that properties that have only nominal taxes in arrears be excluded from tax sales. Amendments also are being introduced that will place restrictions on who can purchase properties at tax sale auctions.

This would not only ensure objectivity, openness and fairness in the tax sale process, it would, more importantly, assure the public that the process is objective, open and fair. The amendments I am introducing today will result in continued improvements to The Municipal Act. The amendments will also ensure that municipalities and local governments are able to meet the changing needs of Manitobans. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 25-The Municipal Assessment Amendment Act Hon.

Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): I move, seconded by the

1680 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1999 Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Praznik), that The Municipal Assessment Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur !'evaluation municipale, be now read a second time and be ref erred to a committee of the House. Motion presented. Mr. Derkach: Madam Speaker, it is my pleasure to introduce for second reading Bill 25, The Municipal Assessment Amendment Act. The Munici pal Assessment Act was rewritten in 19 90. Since then a number of amendments have been made to streamline the assessment process. A number of amendments that have been proposed will enable us to make some additional changes which are of a housekeeping nature.

For example, we propose to amend the definition of mobile home to bring it into line with recent amendments in The Municipal Act. Similarly, to be consistent with the definition contained in The Municipal Act, we propose to amend the definition of municipal administrator. Other amendments are being proposed which are somewhat more significant. These are amendments which are in reaction to recent court interpreta tions of the statute. The Court of Appeal has heard and ruled on a number of important issues over the past year. The court' s decisions were not in accordance with what the act had originally intended.

Therefore it is being proposed in Bill 25 that the appeal provisions of the act be amended. This will serve to clarify the authority of the Board of Revision and the municipal board to allow them to increase an assessment on appeal, authority that this Legislature had approved in the past. Madam Speaker, the proposed amendment aims to clarify for the courts that the municipal board has the ultimate authority to revise an assessment to any amount necessary in correctly determining value. The amendments I am introducing today to The Municipal Assessment Act will do a number of things.

First, they will result in continued improvements to the act. Secondly, they will restore the authority of the municipal board to decide on an assessment appeal as it deems proper. There are two additional issues which have arisen since our legislative proposals were submitted in August of 1998. The first issue deals with the tax status of the Elmwood Cemetery in Winnipeg. Currently, private and profit cemeteries are subject to taxation on lands and buildings, with the exception of where internment exists.

Meanwhile, cemeteries owned and operated by a municipal ity or a religious denomination are exempt from taxation under The Municipal Assessment Act. A group known as the friends of Elmwood Cemetery incorporated recently acquired ownership of the property and has requested exemption from municipal and school taxes. The Elmwood Cemetery has been in financial difficulty for some time. The previous owner set aside $1.3 million to serve as a perpetual care fund to maintain the property. Since the money falls short of what is required, friends of Elmwood Cemetery hope to raise $5 million for the perpetual care fund.

Madam Speaker, the loss of municipal and school taxes by exempting the cemetery from paying taxes is somewhat minimal. Therefore, this bill also seeks tax exemptions for the Elmwood Cemetery as well as for cemeteries owned or operated by nonprofit corporations. The second issue that has arisen relates to the assessment of small craft harbours in the province. The federal government is currently in the process of divesting itself of responsibilities for operating and maintaining recreational harbours and plan to lease their fishing harbours to local harbour authorities.

Manitoba has 21 recreational and 38 fishing harbours operated by the federal government. Under the current provisions, the federal government has made payments in lieu of taxes on land and buildings associated with harbours but has not paid taxes on wharves and docks. However, with groups taking over these harbours from the federal government, they become taxable. In the case of one harbour in particular, the revenue generated from the harbour is not even sufficient enough to cover the annual tax bill. The implications of exempting small craft

May 25, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 16 81 harbours are minor, since the total payable on aU harbours in Manitoba is Jess than $1 2,000. It is therefore proposed that The Municipal Assessm ent Act be amended to aUow for an exemption of the real property used as a harbour by a harbour authority. Madam Speaker, I seek the thoughtful consideration of aU members of this House in moving forward with Bill 25, The Municipal Assess ment Act. Thank you. * (1 500) Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Hon.

Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach), that this House do now resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. * (1510 ) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION AND TRAINING Mr. Chair person (Gerry McAlpine): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training. When the committee last sat, it was considering item 16 .2. School Programs (

c) Assessment and Evaluation

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits, on page 47 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): The minister is aware of a number of concerns about the prospect of local marking this year, and I wondered if the minister had any response to the concerns that have been raised. One of the ones I think that perhaps is the most significant is the possibility of different standards being applied. Certainly there has been some training done from the department, but how is the minister ensuring that a similar standard is being applied? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Local marking was initiated partly in response to concerns that had been raised about the central marking process. That was one of the reasons for doing that. We are concerned about any suggestion that different standards might be applied to this effort. That is why training sessions are made available for local markers.

There is a 20 percent audit of local marking, so that the department can compare that to the standards applied by the department, and I think that we need to gain some experience in local marking, having brought it in in response to concerns raised and, I guess, displeasure raised with the idea of doing it centrally. These questions, by the way, were questions raised by the honourable member for St. James (Ms. Mihychuk) when last we met and we talked about these matters. Ms. Friesen: Can the minister tell me what the process will be after the audit?

The audit will presumably attempt to evaluate whether similar standards have been applied across the board. In the event that similar standards have not been applied, what is the next step? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, as I said, because there is training that goes along with the marking work, we would not expect to see a deviation of an extent that would cause concern, recognizing that the people involved are professional people, that they are of a high calibre. They are members of the Manitoba teaching profession for whom we have a great deal of respect.

So we simply do not expect to see the kinds of results that are being discussed here. I suppose if it turned out that we were wrong about that, we would have to re-evaluate the situation at that point, but knowing the high level of professionalism that exists with Manitoba teachers and knowing that we are attempting through training to have consistent results, we hope that this question is hypoth etical.

1682 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 19 99 Ms. Friesen: Can the minister tell me the extent of training that teachers are receiving in local marking, and can he also tell me what avenues of appeal there are for students at the end of this process of local marking? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, co-ordinators from the various divisions are given two days of training respecting the marking of locally marked tests . They return to their divisions and provide a half day of training for the teachers involved in the local marking.

With respect to appeals, which is simply another marking procedure, tests marked at the local level are appealable at the local level; tests marked at the central level are appealable at the central level. * (1 520) Ms. Friesen : Does the minister have a standard set of regulations for local appeals, for example, the time that must elapse, the price of an appeal, the usual regulations that surround an appeal, or is each division to be developing their own? Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Chairman, for centrally marked tests , there is a two-week appeal period, and when it is turned over for local marking, divisions are made aware of the policy that we use and they are at liberty to choose whatever policy they deem to be appropriate. As to what it costs at the local level, that, too, is in the hands of school divisions. For centrally marked exams, there is a $35 administrative fee for a re-mark, and that includes administration costs and the costs directly for the re-marking process. Ms. Friesen: Is the minister requiring divisions to submit information on their policy?

Are we going to have a central record of what these policies are across the province? It would seem to me that it would be desirable to have some comparability between these or amongst thes e. Mr. McCrae: This is the first year that local marking has been in eff ect. At this point, an overall policy is not indicated in my view, although I think we should keep our minds open to that for the reasons stated by the honourable member, that being consistency and comparability.

We are still trying to ascertain, and we will be using the Advisory Committee on Implementation in this regard, what are the weaknesses and strengths of the two systems and whether we should continue with the local marking. We have learned from the field that those involved in central marking certainly have spoken very highly of the professional develop ment experience and opportunity it is for teachers.

One of the reasons for moving to local marking is to extend the benefits of that, extend it to the school division level, so that we can see more of the benefits of the professional development opportunity. know that officially the Manitoba Teachers' Society has made certain positions known, has taken certain positions.

I am not sure always whether the society- well, obviously no organization speaks for 1 00 percent of its membership and I can understand that, but I do know that teachers involved in the process have made extremely positive comments about what they have learned and what value it has been to them in participating in this way. So it is not clear to me, having moved to local marking in response to concerns, whether we have adequately met those concerns.

If not, as I say, our minds are open about this, but I would not like to take teachers out of the equation because they have demonstrated and made known the value of that process. Again, I am quick to add, I know that is not 10 0 percent, because certainly the Teachers' Society represents the views of lots of teachers in Manitoba. They have taken positions ; that is their job to do so. So I think we will be in a better position to be more definitive about the local marking experience and rules that might flow from that should we opt to continue along that path.

If there should be rules that flow from that in order to protect consistency and comparability, that is something that can be considered in the future. Ms. Friesen : Can the minister tell me whether teachers who are to be involved in the local marking are making a commitment of one year

May 25, 19 99 LEGISL ATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 83 or two years? Does this whole process have to be done over again with another group of teachers next year, and what are the criteria the department has suggested for the teachers who are to be involved? Are they ones who must have taught that particular year? Are they ones who must not have taught that particular year? What criteria and what comparability is there across the province in the level of experience, particularly immediate experience of the teachers?

The minister may be mindful of some of the criticisms that were made of some of the central marking in the early years, and that was that some of the teachers who were involved might have been retired teachers, had not taught the course itself, may not have been involved in it most recently. I do not know whether that is still the case or not. It is not a criticism I heard last year, but what I am looking for is who is going to be marking this, and has the department got some criteria that it is offering to the co ordinators for the choice or volunteering of teachers? Mr.

McCrae: It is not the position of the department that it would restrict teachers should, in a subsequent year-now it would not be next year because there are different subject matters that will be marked locally and centrally every second year. So it is the divisions that we ask to choose the teachers to come in for co-ordinator training and then they return to the divisions. I do not think we have a concern with someone marking on more than one occasion, or for that matter for being trained on more than one occasion depending on who the divisions choose for these functions. * (1 530 ) Ms.

Friesen: Could the minister tell me about the half day of training that teachers receive, are there guidelines for that, or is that individually developed by each of the co-ordinators? Mr. McCrae: The two-day training that is undertaken for the co-ordinator markers who come to the government for that training and then return to their teachers locally, to provide them with a half day of training, are provided with manuals, something we can share with the honourable member although we cannot do it today. If the honourable member wants that, we can make that available to her.

That manual is used then to train local teachers and that manual is available to those local teachers. After all again I point out these are teachers who are trained and educated in imparting curricula to their students and to testing them themselves. So here we have them working with the department in an assessment process which includes, as I said, the production of a manual in the given subject that is being tested. As I say, I can volunteer to make those manuals available to the honourable member. Ms. Friesen: Yes, I would be interested in seeing the manuals.

I would like to ask the minister about the earlier years of the Grade 12 tests. There is, I think on average, about a 78 to 80 percent pass rate in English at the moment, but the pass rate in mathematics is much lower.

But in both cases that is not the issue I want to deal with at the moment, but I am interesting in knowing how the government has tracked those who did not pass; how many are taking it a second time; how many are not appearing again on the records for the examination; what are the results for those who are taking it for a second time; do we have people who are taking it for a third time, for exa mple, in the English which will have been there long enough for people to have taken it a third time. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, the answer is soon but not yet.

Perhaps by the end of our next testing session we will be in a better position. That is a year from now. By that time we will have four years, I guess, of data to begin building the kind of database that the honourable member is talking about so that we can put the results of our assessment program to better use throughout the system. So I think the kind of information she is asking for is being gathered, but we are not in a position yet to rely on it because it is still rather new. Ms.

Friesen: Well, I am obviously interested in building the database, but four years seems to me time enough to have some understanding of the impact on students of the testing. The minister is aware, I think, tha t there are concerns in some cases that the testing may simply be something which pushes a child out of school.

1684 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 19 99 I would have thought the government would have been interested in developing the data, finding the material that gave evidence to that one way or another. Now has it done that? You can certainly tell that after two years. You have four testings. I mean, you have two tests a year, so it is not just the year. You have two opportunities to do that. There have also been, I think, implications of difficulties with certain kinds of time tabling and the testing.

Again, has the government looked at any of those and prepared any response on that for its own purposes or for the public purposes on the impacts of that on school timetabling and also curriculum issues? For example, has the government also looked at the difference in pass rates? Obviously, you have set the bar very high in one area, and you have set it at a level in another area where 80 percent of the children can succeed. Why has that difference occurred? What kind of survey is the government doing?

What kind of discussion is it entering into with the curriculum designers, with the teachers, with the professional development trainers, to look at these issues? Four years seems to me long enough to have developed some principles and some means of response on that. Mr. McCrae: I would have to take issue with the suggestion that the testing regime would have the effect of pushing a child out of school. Teachers are involved in developing the assessment process, and it is very simplistic to suggest that a test would put a child out of school. In fact, it is too simplistic and defies credibility.

An Honourable Member: Prove it. * (1 540) Mr. McCrae: Well, I think it is up to- An Honourable Member: That is why I am asking for the evidence because there is that argument. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. We will have to maintain decorum in the committee so that the information can be recorded. I would ask the honourable minister to continue with your response. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member suggests, says that I should prove what I have said, and I guess it goes the other way around. There was testing long before the government came along with any testing.

To say that the province-wide testing scheme that is designed to show we have quality in our curriculum and designed to show that the curriculum is being passed on to the students, that that somehow is a bad thing, is simply not meeting with approval. The people want to see that . If they are going to spend $7 81 million for an education program for their children, I would think that most people would be and are quite supportive of the concept and the reality of testing against the standards we are setting to ensure that we are meeting them .

I am as sensitive as the honourable member or anyone else with respect to children who have difficulties. To say, all of a sudden, that Johnny is having a bad time at school and it is all because of tests, well, you know, tests were here long before the New Directions came forward. One might want to dig a little bit deeper and find out just what is the problem with Johnny rather than simply because a certain group which I support is opposed, so I the refore have to be opposed and so that everything that goes on in the system is now going to be the fault of that which I and my friends are opposing.

It is too simple; it defies credibility. Little Johnny has something else going on because the vast majority of children taking these tests are quite okay with them in the sense that it is not going to push them out of school. I think it borders on irresponsible to suggest that a level of accountability in the system which helps us to identify just what it is in an academic sense that is not going right for Johnny or that we can improve, that would be a more responsible approach rather than simply to say, well, my friends are against testing so I am going to be against it too.

That is not applying logical thinking; it is not applying reason; it is simply not looking fairly at the situation. The idea here is, among other things, to improve the overall level of education our children are

May 25, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 85 getting. An awful lot of experts would agree that this assessment process, along with improved and updated curricula, is the way to go. If it were only Manitoba out on an adventure on its own, I guess there might be a little more there to be critical about, but when I know that other jurisdictions are doing the same thing, it is for a reason. It is because we are competing in a global marketplace.

The world of the future-leave the market place out of it-our human and interpersonal relationships are affected by what we are learning in school and what are we doing to make the next generation ready. We are not doing Johnny a favour simply by of f the cuff suggesting that the tests are pushing him out of school so therefore we will let him go, and we will blame the government. I mean that is just not good enough. Little Johnny deserves better from us than that.

If there is something wrong with this child, let us look at the reasons for it rather than to look at one of the effects of his problem and go after that. That is the shortest term, narrow kind of thinking that I can imagine, and it is the greatest disservice to a child. I mean I am surprised that responsible members of the Legislature would be taken in by that sort of thing. It was not that long ago I had a meeting with a group of parents, and one of the moms was telling us of the trouble that her child was having, and she was attributing the troubles to the tests.

Well, I think it turned out, after some discussion, that it was fairly apparent that there were more things to be looking at in this child's life than simply the fact that we are trying to establish standards and tests to see that we are achieving those standards.

Yes, we recognize there are children who have circumstances that require some special attention or special handling, and that is why there are children who are exempt from these tests because we know that not all children are the same, but most children, is what we need to keep in mind, most so-called normal children in today's society are not unable to take in what the curriculum implies and not unable to be tested. I mean I have children too and I was a child and went through testing as well, and I remember thinking, my goodness, would school not be a lot better if we did not have to do these tests.

Well, now in hindsight I think back and think it would have been a lot better for me, it would have been easier, not better. We are not doing anybody any favour by excusing them of the responsibility of having to achieve in order to achieve their school education because we can just excuse them, those who do not want to or those who are encouraged to rebel against a system that is designed to get them properly educated and excuse them and excuse them and excuse them, but who is going to look after them when they are 30?

Who is going to look after them when they are 40 and when they are 50 and they need to be looking after themselves? We can say, I guess, well, because of them, we should abandon the whole system, and you know, just leave it all up to people who do not see the need to measure up to any standards. But that will not only put our children individually into a disadvantageous position as they get out into the world, but it will place our province at a less competitive position in the scheme of things in our country and more and more inter nationally.

I mean if you just look at the people in this world that we are doing business with and, yes, competing with, we have to keep up or we will be lost economically and in a social context as well. Our children deserve a break. They deserve a responsible system that will allow them to achieve in those days when they are finished their formal education. So I really do take issue with the comment about pushing a child out of school.

If there are any circumstances where there are children who are simply not able, for health reasons, to handle the work, that is another matter, but to make a blanket statement like that simply suggests there is no support on the part of the honourable member or her party for New Directions which imply good curricula and imply good teaching and imply testing and imply the changes we need to make as a result of the things we learn from that testing. The honourable member suggests that we should be moving faster than tomorrow. When somebody complains we are moving too fast,

1686 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1999 then we should slow down, and then we should speed up, and then we should slow down. I think the department has a big job on its hands. The leadership of the past few years has asked the department to do a lot of things, and the department has been doing a lot of things and attempting to be responsive to the field. The field has on occasion made a good case that we are moving too fast or we are testing too early in the year, too late in the year, whatever it happens to be, we are not getting materials out quick enough.

All of those things, some of them have turned out to catch the attention of the department, and rightly so, and adjustments have been made. That is a reasonable thing to do. I think it would be unfair to the children, certainly unfair to the teachers, to be moving along in such a way that we are not listening to them at all, that we are not consulting them. * (1 550 ) The reason we can promote what it is we are doing is because we do have so much partnership with the field.

That is something that I am sure I know my predecessors have asked happen, and I certainly would continue in that tradition to keep consulting people in the field. I guess one has to be careful about consultation because you never get the same answer, I guess, from any one individual, and you have to listen to all of the answers and try to build the best consensus that you can based on the principles you want to achieve. I think there initially was general agreement about the principles we want to achieve.

That being said, it becomes politically quite easy to agree with the principles but pick apart the implementation. I have seen it happen in a number of things in the past. It is just really easy from a political standpoint, which means that without being unduly unfair with anybody, look at where people are coming from and try to figure that out. If consistently they put the kids first, then they should have the ear of decision makers, they should have the ear of implementers. It is when we start veering off and putting some other agenda ahead of our children that we get off the track.

I think we do a disservice to the children every time we do that. There are all kinds of excellent, excellent people out there who simply are there, and I have met lots of them. They are simply there because they want to see success achieved over and over again in the lives of these young people. I respect that very much. Those are the first people I am going to listen to. Those who represent some political organization or some other kind of interest organization, well, I will listen to them, and so I should, but we have to remember from where people come.

When it is a very simple concept that the children are the ones whose interests are being put above all other considerations, those people, they are simply credible, very credible, and deserve to have their point of view listened to. So when I know a teacher, for example, for most of the years of my life who simply makes the point that, you know, you are heading in the right direction, sometimes I think you are moving a little too fast, and, if we can identify where that is happening, slow it down a little bit, then we should do that.

If there are other adjustments that need to be made, then we should do that and not hold fast simply because we are stubborn or because we have made a decision and that if we change it people will think that we are faltering along the route. Well, we are not faltering along the route. We have New Directions. We have the right directions. Sometimes we implement just a little bit wrong and need to make corrections. That has been happening. I think it is a sign of good will and a sign of co-operation with the field that we are prepared to do that.

The central marking business was one of the areas that I understand did not meet with everybody's approval. The department, in an attempt to work with the people in the field of education, made that adjustment to the local marking. Then the next thing you know some people are not happy with that too. So what it is that some people want? Well, I happen to know. Some people simply want to criticize the government. That is okay. That is what they are paid to do, and so that is what they do. They are earning their money. The fact is everybody should take a good, hard look at what their objectives are.

Is their objective simply to replace the government? Well, that is one. Is their objective to get rid of the government in favour of one that they think is more favourable to them? That is another thing. It does not

May 25, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 87 always tum out that way, I have found in the past. Is the objective the best we can do for all the children of Manitoba? Well, bingo, that is the people that we should be listening the hardest to, and when they point out the error of our ways, be big enough to admit that we have moved too fast or gone too far or too quickly or whatever it happens to be. Sometimes it is that we have not done enough, that we have not moved fast enough.

That is fair too-but in a general sense just to make the point that this whole business of testing is wrong, that it is not meeting with approval with the vast majority of Manitobans who know dam well that everywhere else you go in the world people have to be accountable and people are reaching for higher and higher levels of technol ogy and excellence, and Manitobans have proved in the past that they are able to run with that bunch and we are not about to let them get ahead of us in the future, so that means that from time to time, we have to look at what we are doing in our education system.

That is precisely what has been happening. We have been implementing over the past five years or so and making some genuine improve ments. Ask the teachers; they will tell you. That is exactly what we are doing, but when it comes to all of the data that we need to form certain conclusions, the honourable member may make the point that we should be further along in that area.

We are listening to that, but I think that given the magnitude of the tasks that the department and the teaching profession and the division people have been undertaking, it might be worthy to say that we have come a long distance and we have made significant improvements in our education system, and with a few more hurdles to get over, we will be in a position, I guess a position to evaluate more definitively and in more categorical ways how we are doing with New Directions. Anybody who has any common sense I think would have to admit that we have made some significant improvements.

You do not put all that effort into something that everybody agrees on and call for the eff orts of many thousands of others and get that kind of support and effort without some kind of positive benefit. We know that is there, but I guess there are some people who are just simply going to hold on to some ideas that are a little old now, a little bit out of step with the realities of the modem day society. That is okay. Everybody is entitled to his opinion, even opinions which ultimately it turns out are totally unsustainable.

We do owe people the courtesy of listening to those opinions and working them into the equation as we continue to build a stronger and stronger system. I think that is all I have to say about that. Ms. Friesen : Well, the question dealt with evaluation of a government program. It asked for information and evidence about issues which clearly are concerning people, who I understand have already spoken to the minister as well.

What I had anticipated from the minister, I was asking for some evaluation after four years and in some cases eight exams, of the impact of these exams on students who for a variety of reasons are at the weaker end of the scale. It may be English as a second language; it may be the nature of their progress generally in school; it might have to do with other family responsibilities or other issues.

What I had anticipated from the minister was an answer that said, yes, I have heard that criticism; we have looked at this, and we have found that the dropout rate at the Grade 12 level after the mathematics or after the English exam is 2 percent, 1 percent, 10 percent. If it is at the low end of the scale, we are looking at it; if it is at the higher end of the scale, we are assisting divisions to meet the challenge that comes with that.

The 50 percent failure rate in mathematics, I would have anticipated the government would have done some analysis on that that looked at whether this is an issue of the nature of a particular school; is it an issue of the nature of the test; is it an issue of the way in which the test was introduced or the kind of training that teachers have had? What are the reasons for this and what steps has the government taken to move these numbers up?

The government might also have responded with, well, yes, when we first introduced the test, 50 percent of people did fail in math, but we followed this up, and we now know that another 10 percent take it and pass the second year, that a further 1 0 percent take it the third year.

1688 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 19 99 * (1 600) So that is what I was asking for, some sense of responsible evaluation of a system which is relatively new for Manitoba families. It is dif ficult to make generalizations. Well, in fact, one should not make generalizations after one event, but the government has had a fair experience now with some of these exams, and what I was looking for from the minister was information and evidence that will enable us to judge and to evaluate what the impact has been, fairly, across Manitoba of these exams. The minister is aware of the criticism.

I do not need to repeat that, but what I am asking for from the department is some response to that, some evidence-based response that will enable us as a thinking public to have some sensible discussion about that. At the moment, as the minister knows, much of this is in the realm of speculation from individual schools, from the experience of particular areas of the province. So, again, I am asking the minister for evidence. I am asking for information. I do not know that the minister really understood the question. Mr.

McCrae: We are getting good feedback, lots of it, from the teachers and the markers in terms of building a good, strong system by which we can achieve the things that the honourable member is talking about, that, what did she call it, responsible evaluation of the students and of the system itself. We have to get the mechanisms in their place, and we have to get the feedback from the people assisting us in doing that. I think what the honourable member is trying to do is to jump a little bit ahead of where we are, or perhaps to suggest we should be ahead of where we are, which is a fair comment.

I am not saying it is true, but I am saying it is a fair comment. I do not know if she realizes how massive the change to New Directions is. I mean, she should talk to some teachers about this, and they can sort of fill her in on the magnitude of the changes, the magnitude of the curriculum changes that have been undertaken. In fact, this is an area where there have been some concessions made when it comes to the amount of new curriculum that teachers have had to address and work with.

So it has been a very good learning experience for education generally in Manitoba, and not just the students but the parents, the educators, the people in the department who have been trying to administer an improved education system. certainly do understand what the honourable member is saying, and I think that we wiii be in a position of course to make more concrete use of the lessons we are learning, not that we have not made some pretty concrete use of it already, but I think what I am getting is simply that the honourable member is suggesting we should be further along.

I think given the magnitude of the task, I guess I could say that I do not think that is a very fair criticism, but I mean it is one that the honourable member is free to make. I think she might find that there are an awful lot of people who might disagree with her that we have not moved fast enough. There are people in the field who have been feeling under a lot of pressure, and I think we have to have a little more regard for them, i.e., the teachers in the system, than the questions suggest that we should have.

When it comes to evidence that the honourable member is talking about, that evidence is being made available through each passing year and will be in a better position to make use of it as we proceed down the road that we have been using. The point is, I get back to the point that I believe is being made here, we have people who are coming and talking about test-free Tuesday or something like that, that tests are bad and that implies that a lot of other things are bad about New Directions. Really there is far more good than there is bad in New Directions.

I do not think there is anything that you could identify as being bad except that there are things that we could do better. Everybody acknowledges that, and we have been doing that. We have been making adjustments to ensure that we are not asking more of people than their ability would allow them to deliver. But simply, I cannot get out of my mind what was said earlier because it just takes this discussion from one of building on something that is strong to engaging in arguments that do not make any sense, like the business about

May 25, 19 99 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 89 pushing a child out of school and using that as a basis for scra pping the system of New Directions. It is too simple. Anybody can say something like that. It does not mean it is true, but anybody can say it with a view to sensationalizing an issue which is really intended to create a higher quality of education for our children and take an argument like that and really work against all of the improvements that they are trying to bring about. I know the honourable member is interested in education, and she would like to see improvements.

Improvements are happening right in front of her, and because it is not she that is driving it, I guess, she has problems with it. Well, she is a politician and so am I, and I understand how these things come about. Again, I go back to what I think I said last week about using the kids as sort of innocent pawns in this debate really does the opposite to what is intended. I think if it is intended to bring forward reasoned criticism of a system, then do it.

But, to bring in outrageous comments like that one as a basis for scrapping New Directions, I simply am not able to go along with that kind of thinking because the whole-! mean, why would anybody engage in improving education if it was not because it was felt that we needed to do that for good and proper reasons, those reasons being the most precious resource we have, our children, and to ensure for them a chance to achieve all they can be, which, I think, is what parents generally want in their children?

Most parents that I know simply do not want to see any limits placed on the opportunities before their children, and I do not want an education system that did not keep up to be one of the reasons, especially when I was here and had an opportunity to support something that would indeed give those kids a much better chance. To use those same kids in such a way does them more of a disservice. There are kids for whom a school of any kind is a big challenge, because the children have special debilities and need specialized education.

Well, we are working to address that, but simply to make a broad statement like that is just out of line. * (1610 ) So we are able to draw conclusions from information that comes forward as a result of the testing of all of the people, all of the students in the province. The indicators of our system are being developed. That is when we are using this kind of data for that purpose, and we will keep the pressure on in that regard. When we have the opportunity to tell the honourable member more about what we are achieving with regard to those results, we will be making that known. Ms.

Friesen : Can the minister tell me how many students who have failed the Grade 12 math exam have taken it a second time and what their result has been? Mr. McCrae: By September when we are enrolling students, we will be able to answer that question. Ms. Friesen : Mr. Chairman, can the minister tell me whether students who took it-it has been offered twice now as a standard exam. I am trying to move away from the pilots. There have been pilots and there have been ones which have counted. I think we are in our second-th is is the second year or third year of this. Mr.

McCrae: Will you ask me the question one more time? Sorry. Ms. Friesen : Mr. Chairman, yes. What I do not want to do is to get involved in the pilot testing. Those are pilots; those are experimental. That is diff erent. So I am looking at the introduction of the Grade 12 mathematics test on a-I am not sure of the word to use-f ormal basis. [interje ction] "For real," that is right, in quotes. I want to know how many times that has been taken, because my understanding is at least twice because we have two per year, and what the results of those have been.

For example, did people take it the first time, fail, take it a second time, do better? Do you have those kinds of results? Mr. McCrae: I think I am understanding the honourable member's question, and I can only repeat what I said: that kind of name- and student number-driven information, that kind of system will be in place by September of this year so that I would be able to answer that question in the affirmative by then, but I cannot yet.

1690 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 25, 1999 Ms. Friesen: Does that mean, Mr. Chairman, that the government will not have information for those people who have already taken the tests, that actually the collecting of data based on the name, the number and the examination will begin this September? Mr. McCrae: As I said, the information will not be available in a uniform way across the province until this coming school year.

It is not available in that form yet, but it will be by next year, i.e., if a child or a person takes the exam a second time, then at that time it will be known what the previous history is of that particular student. Ms. Friesen : Mr. Chairman, are there instances of students taking an exam the second time to improve their mark? Mr. McCrae: I guess the best way for me to answer that is to say that if the honourable member or if a parent or somebody was seeking information about a student, at this point, the school division would have that information.

It is not necessarily available to the department at this point, but at this time next year we expect that would be the case; the department would have that information on all the students. It needs to be added to what I have said that the only way you can get to take the test again is if you take the course again, so it is not simply a question of having a rewrite a year later or a month later or something like that . In order to take the test, you have to have taken the course. Ms. Friesen: Can the minister tell me what kind of evaluation he will be doing of the testing in the years up to this September?

If the beginning of collecting of this data does not begin until this September, then what kind of evaluation, what is the nature of the evaluation, what kind of information is the minister using for the evaluation presumably that is in place now? * (1 620) Mr. McCrae: I think I have some information that may give a better overall response to these questions than I have been to this point. It is about interpreting results from tests and examinations. The honourable member will remember New Directions, The Action Plan. That was the provincial program.

It states in there that New Directions seeks to ensure that effective educational strategies are used consistently and appropriately across the system. Well, that makes sense. It seems to me that is what we are trying to achieve here. The purpose of the program is to provide clear, accurate information about each student's skills and abilities in relation to the objectives or the expected learning outcomes set out in the provincial curricula.

The results of examinations and standards tests can provide schools and divisions and districts with benchmarks to review student learning, local student assessment and evaluation practices and student achieve ment relative to educational standards. This will contribute to a better understanding of student achievement across the province. I think this is what the honourable member is attempting to get at with her questions here: what is the student achievement across the province, how do we measure it, and what are results?

The testing program supports the implementation of curricula by developing test instruments that are curriculum congruent because the constraints of large scale testing, for the measurability of some outcomes and the duration of tests, it is not possible to assess the entire range of student learning outcomes. Therefore, standards tests and provincial exams need to be complemented at the school level by a variety of assessment methods such as teacher observations. These were always there. Writing samples, demonstrations, portfolio assessments or exhibitions.

Provincial examinations and tests assess the performance of individual students, not the performance of the system; that is, the results of standards tests alone do not indicate how well curricula have been implemented. In order to assess the system, a much broader base of information is needed. The Assessment and Evaluation Branch of the Department of Education and Training distributes provincial test and examination results in a variety of reports to schools, school divisions and districts and the community.

Student profiles provide detailed information on each student's performance in the specific areas tested. Schools are required to share this

May 25, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 91 detailed information with individual students and their parents. This is an important statement. Schools are required to share this detailed information with individual students and their parents. Teachers are encouraged to use this information in conjunction with their own classroom assessment results to enhance classroom instruction. That has been an important question for me. Information about results are shared with schools and school divisions. That sharing is done for a purpose so that we can achieve something with our program.

I have heard from a number of parents that while we do not know anything about what has happened with the results of our child's provincial test, that is in fact the folks who are talking about having a test-free Tuesday. They say that the only information you receive about your child's test results is a number. Neither your child's teacher, your child, nor you will see the marked test unless you fill out a form. Well, that is what I have been a little bit troubled by, and this is one area I have discussed with my deputy minister because this is troubling me.

We expect that part of New Directions is that parents are a key part of a child's education. I have even heard of stories where teachers themselves were not aware of what the test results were. Makes you wonder. I would be the first one as a parent to say, well, why do you have tests then if you are not sharing the information? I do not know all the reasons for this. Any reasons that relate to anything but some mistake in communication or something, I would not want anybody's strong feelings about or against New Directions to be the reason for information not being shared.

There is no point having information if it is just going to sit on a shelf, because the information is designed to be used to bring about better educational opportunities and better results in the case of each and every child about whom these results are made available by the Department of Education and Training. Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair I really have a problem with this group that says the only information you will receive about your child's test results is a number. It is not true. That is simply not true. A detailed profile is sent back on each student.

In too many instances in my opinion that I have heard about so far, this detailed information is not getting to parents. Why is what I have to ask and what I have asked my deputy minister to inquire into and see what we can do about that, because, as I say, it would be hard for me as a parent to want to support any kind of system if I am left out of it. Now, I do not know if it is on purpose or if it is not. I hope it is not on purpose because that says something else that is a very serious matter. These reports are sent. Student profiles are sent to each school. Divisional overviews are sent to each division.

There are school summaries, division summaries, provincial summaries, and also division and school-by-school information is all made available. Information is power and all of this information, if it is used well, can result in some extremely excellent possibilities, not only for our school systems, but for each of the kids involved. One of the other things the test-free-Tuesday people are saying is that there is no diagnostic value to tests because they occur too late in the school year. Any suggestion of a lack of diagnostic value relates again to

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-5-32
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 5th hansardpdf 32.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f866b6ee04efa2c8cc289836ea1e04bafaaeec4f

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