Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 30 (36th Legislature, 3rd Session)

36-3-30

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 30- 1:30 p.m., Monday, April21, 1997 0?

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER. Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER. Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry. Hon. ERNST. Jim EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY. Glen, Hun. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN. Gerard KOWALSKI. Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATH LIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOW A Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda. Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hun. NEWMAN, David. Hun. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID. Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric. Hon. STRUTHERS. Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Imerlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescent wood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C.

P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. PC . N.D.P N.D P Lib. Lib. N.D.P. p C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P. C. NDP P.C. NDP PC PC. PC. P.C PC . p C. PC . N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P

16 63 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, April21, 1997 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. David Newman (Minister of Energy and Mines): I would like to table the 19 97-98 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for Manitoba Energy and Mines. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 22- The Law Reform Commission Repeal Act Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 22, The Law Reform Commission Repeal Act (Loi abrogeant la

Loi sur la Commission de reforme du droit), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill 23-The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Amendment Act Hon. James McCrae (Minister charged with the admi nistration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Mcintosh), that leave be given to introduce Bill 23, The Manitoba Public Insu rance Corporation Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Soc iete d'assurance publique du Manitoba), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill 24 - The Personal Property Security Amendment and Various Acts Amendment Act Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Newman), that leave be given to introduce Bill 24, The Personal Property Security Amendment and Various Acts Amendment Act, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les suretes relatives aux biens personnels et d'autres dispositions legislatives, and that the same be received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill 25- The Proceeds of Crime Registration Act Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Newman), that leave be given to introduce Bill 25, The Proceeds of Crime Registration Act;

Loi sur les enregistrements relatifs aux produits de la criminalite, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed. * ( 1335) Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery, where we have this afternoon twenty-eight Grades 4 and 5 students from the J.B. Mitchell School under the direction of Mrs. Tina Hellmuth. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Radcliffe). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon.

1664 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April21, 1997 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Flooding Updates Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, first of all, I think all of us want to congratulate the volunteers across Manitoba that have been working tirelessly on behalf of our communities. Certainly I know, as a recipient of much volunteer effort over the weekend, it is really appreciated. I think this is the worst crisis we have been facing since the northern forest fires of 1989. At that time, the House was not sitting.

So we on our side would suggest that the government and ourselves and the Liberals get together to work out a balance between our obligations in this House and our obligations to our communities and constituencies to make sure that we can use-1 am sure we can work out the appropriate balance in this Chamber. Madam Speaker, we were again devastated to see what happened to Grand Forks. I remember listening to the people in Grand Forks about a week ago saying that what happened in Fargo would not happen here in Grand Forks. We are now hearing what happened in Grand Forks would not happen here.

The forecasts for the river have gone up one foot in terms of its peak from Thursday to Friday and another potential three feet from Friday to Sunday, less than 48 hours. I would like to ask the government: Can they advise the people of the province what is the latest flood forecast, and will it be revised at all in the future to deal with this tremendous crisis that we may have in front of us in our Manitoba communities? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, I want to, on behalf of the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) and the government, thank the Leader of the Opposition for his co-operative approach in dealing with this tremendous flood that will have to be dealt with as it approaches the province and the city. I also want to say the Premier and I know four other colleagues at least, the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay), the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura), my colleague from Emerson and maybe others are in fact out on some of the sites, as we speak, to get a first-hand view of what is happening and what has to be done.

I can assure the member as well that we have in place an ongoing reporting system so the public wiii be reported to on a daily basis. We know that today, for example, when the Premier gets back, if the House so desires to reconvene-! will leave it up to the House leaders to co-operate, to come back into the Assembly to get an update when the Premier gets here. As far as the update of any further projections as to the flood, I am sure that the Minister of Natural Resources at that time would be able to report as well.

I can assure you that the government, many of us having been here through the forest fires, through the flood of 1979-my colleague the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) may have been the only one that was here in 1950, but I say seriously it is that kind of experience that one draws upon to deal with the situation that is out there, and the most important thing is to keep the public informed and to keep the mobility there. I know, as well, that there are some evacuations taking place today. My colleague the Minister of Health (Mr.

Praznik) has the specifics of personal care homes and hospitals out of some of the communities like Emerson and Morris while the roadways are still open, because it is projected that those roadways will be closed, and it would be extremely difficult and not proper to take the kind of action. So the volunteers, as the member has raised, it is a time like this that we get pulled together and do pull together to make sure that life, limb and property to the best of our ability is protected. Thank you, Madam Speaker. * (1 340) Evacuations Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader ofthe Opposition): Madam Speaker, watching, again, a little bit of the television from Grand Forks and the obvious difficulty they were in with dealing with their evacuation of their communities, their most vulnerable, the personal care home, their hospital patients, of course, it was the fire that took place that was even more horrific to deal with in terms of the community.

April2 1, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1665 We know there is now a partial evacuation of Emerson, Rosenort, Brunkild, Lowe Farm, St. Pierre Jolys. Has the government upgraded its contingency plans for evacuations all across both the western and the Red River Valley areas of potential floods, so that we do not have the situation as we have unfortunately seen south of us? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Yes, Madam Speaker, there are plans. As I said, we are proactive in the movement of people, as we speak, to get the people who are most vulnerable out of those facilities.

As I say, the Minister of Health has a detailed update. If, again, the members want to assemble when the Premier (Mr. Filmon) gets back to get an update from the Minister ofNatural Resources (Mr. Cummings) and the Premier, we could do so. I can assure him that we will be moving aggressively to make sure that those who are in situations that have to be moved, that it is done prior to, not after the fact, and will continue to work with that objective in mind and I am sure will be accomplished. Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, I wonder if it is possible for all of us to be informed as to what the specific evacuation plans would be, what the contingency plans are. All of us have constituents to represent, friends and relatives to serve. It would be fitting, I think, in light of what we saw in terms of trying to run an evacuation through a television station-looked like to us, watching it over the weekend.

It would be, I think, helpful to all members of this Legislature that the contingency plans could be tabled in this Chamber, and all of us could reality-check it from the basis of our own communities, our own relatives. Many of us are working with friends and relatives, and we would all like to be involved in this effort, if you could. Mr. Downey: Yes, Madam Speaker, those plans would be made available and communicated to the members here. As I said, we are prepared to do it as immediately as possible when the Premier returns and the Minister responsible for Government Services (Mr.

Pitura), Natural Resources and all those affected-to put that information. Plus, I recall in 1979, there was a daily update right from the Legislative Building that is in place now to be provided as well, so that the public, everybody is as up to date on the information as is humanly possible. Flooding Communications Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, there are very many concerned Manitobans about the flood that is occurring as we speak.

One of the concerns and something that is leading to some anxious moments, perhaps, is the communications, and communication is absolutely essential in times like these. As of this morning, PCN lines at Rosenfeld was under water affecting 350 subscribers. The major concern is that emergency calls may not get through to that community. Can the Deputy Premier request that the public only use phone lines for essential and emergency services during this time? Hon.

James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, I can assure the member that we do have professionals in place as it relates to those services that should or should not be used. I know there is also a concern about sightseers and things like that, that it is a matter of making sure that the roadways are cleared for the emergency activities that have to be carried out, the same for communication systems.

There are professionals and there will be communications in place to make sure that all of this information as it relates to the activities that have to be carried out, first and foremost, are to protect life and limb of the population of Manitoba, and I thank the member for the question. Mr. Struthers: Madam Speaker, could the minister indicate perhaps in conjunction with the Rosenfeld situation, what steps are being taken to provide the vital emergency communications reconnect that that community needs now with his provincial government for information that they will need? Mr.

Downey: On details such as that, rather than provide misinformation, as soon as the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura) and responsible for Emergency Measures gets back, I will make sure that information is provided, so that he has it directly from the department and can be provided later on today. I think that, even though this is Question Period, there may be an opportunity later on, as I have indicated, that can give a complete update on those kinds of things so

1666 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri12 1, 1997 it is helpful for the general public. Thank you, Madam Speaker. * (1 345) Mr. Struthers: In a general way, what kind of contingency plans does the government have to keep people in all of these communities informed as to what the plans are for evacuation? Maybe the minister can indicate how these communities will be informed of all the details that they need in order not to risk life, limb and property. Mr.

Downey: Madam Speaker, under The Emergency Measures Act of the province of Manitoba, there is an authority which is transferred to the municipal directors, leaders and people who are directly responsible for the governing of their communities. There is a process in place. They are well organized. The Department of Government Services and Emergency Measures have a communication link with identified people. As I said at the outset, unfortunately we have had these situations before. I know that they were handled responsibly. We want to make sure that the system that worked again is in place.

We had Command Headquarters. There is available on a daily basis the information, and this is where the public media play an extremely important role as well, that that is also a part of making sure the public are informed. It is making sure that they have an interface with the information from Emergency Measures and Natural Resources. That is in place and will be worked actively. Flooding Crest-Selkirk Area Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Deputy Premier.

Residents in Selkirk and residents north of Selkirk are very concerned that forecasts that are issued by the Department of Natural Resources seem to be upgraded on an hourly basis. My question for the minister is: When is the Red River expected to crest in the Selkirk area, and what is the level of the forecasted peak? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, I cannot give the specifics of that question, although what I will assure the member is that in the information process that is available, we will make sure that that kind of information is available to the member as soon as it is available.

I think we have to appreciate what we are evidencing, and that is that we have seen a record snowfall and the water coming at us from North Dakota; we are seeing 40-some centimetres in the later part of the winter that is now melting and going into the system; we are seeing an extremely late spring, and all of that now comes together to the point where we have an extensive runoff coming from the Dakotas. At the same time, we have seen warm weather and an extensive melt here, and if they coincide at the wrong time, I think it would be certainly very difficult for those communities.

Again, I think it is, at this point, because of some of the unknowns, hard to say, although I know the department have an ongoing tally on this, and we will get that information as soon as the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings) is available. I just want to reiterate, Madam Speaker, there is a series of events taking place, that it is a matter of keeping that communication and that linkage available, and we will do that. Mr. Dewar: Madam Speaker, I want to thank the minister for that answer. Floodway Operation Mr.

Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): My next question for the same minister: When will the floodway go into operation, and when and how will residents north of the Lockport spillway be notified? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, again, because we are actually in an hour-by hour situation as it relates to the ministers and my colleague the member for Emerson (Mr.

Penner), who are just virtually on the site and coming back and will be here shortly, the operation of the floodway and that type of information will be communicated, what is available and up to date, to the member later today when my colleague gets back.

April2 1, 1997 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1667 Contingency Plans-S elkirk Area Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): What contingency plans-or are they going to be upgrading the plans to assist affected residents in Selkirk and north of Selkirk? * (1 350) Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, do know that throughout many communities-and I have been informed by my colleague the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) that there is an office in Selkirk, I believe, to update the local communities and the municipalities.

Again, as we know, time and time again, these elected people and the people throughout the communities, whether they are service clubs or whoever, come together at a time like this and they have, as I said, unfortunately in the past gone through it. There is a lot of experience out there. It is a matter of making sure that we are all working in a co-ordinated way, and that is that we will assure the member we get him the information as to who specifically the contacts are. South Transcona Water Retention Pond Funding Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): All weekend, again this spring in south Transcona, the residents have been battling flood waters, but this is the worst year ever. The people there are exhausted, they are frustrated, and they want to have some hope that this problem will be resolved once and for all and that the retention pond which was to be cost-shared between the provincial and city governments is not uncertain, that it is indeed going to be approved. I understand the Minister of Urban Affairs has been having some meetings, as well as perhaps other cabinet ministers, with city officials.

I am wanting to ask the Minister of Urban Affairs if, as he indicated on April 8, the UCPA fund in his department would approve the $1 .57 million if the city requested it, if this is still the province's position, and if he has any more information of when they can anticipate the new resolution from the city and if it will be on the City Council's agenda on April 30. Hon.

Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): I appreciate the question from the member because it is of a concern naturally with this terrible situation that we are having with flooding not only in the Red River but also, as pointed out by the member, in south Transcona. I have indicated to the City of Winnipeg that under the UCPA III funding allocation, we have designated funds that are specifically earmarked towards various categories of capital funding, and the south Transcona funding for the pond, as it is called, is available from that.

I have not heard back from the city as to their request to utilize this type of funding towards that. I will be meeting with the mayor in the next few days, and I will specifically bring up that topic again to her. Ms. Cerilli: The minister is then suggesting that it is now the city's responsibility to approve a resolution to request the money from the Urban Capital Projects fund. If that is the case, does he expect that will happen within the next period of time, so that the construction will be approved in time to occur this summer? Mr.

Reimer: In my correspondence to the mayor, I have indicated to her that the funding is available through that allocation. City Hall's resolution that came forward to me specifically requested a 50-50 cost shared funding by the province but not from that particular funding. They were wanting the funding to come from a different source. We are of the opinion that the UCPA funding is allocated and specifically earmarked for these types of endeavours, and this is where the funding should come out of. We are willing to participate on a 50-50 cost-shared basis on this.

It is just a matter of the city sending a different resolution back to this department so that we can respond in a favourable manner. Ms. Cerilli: Is the minister suggesting that the city passed a motion requiring the province to use new money for this project that they knew the province would not approve? Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, that is speculative in nature, and I really could not say what was on the minds of the City Council when they were passing that resolution other than the fact that we have indicated that here in Manitoba, in fact, here in Canada, this

1668 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri12 1, 1997 allocation of funds specifically for a large municipality like Winnipeg, which is the third allocation of over $90 million on five-year increments for capital improvements, is unique. It is totally within the realm of the city to give us recommendations as to how they would like to allocate these funds. We are encouraging them to look at this as the avenue of recourse for solving the problems in south Transcona. * (1 355) Flooding Federal Compensation Mr. Neil Gaudry (St Boniface): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier.

Over the weekend, like many Manitobans, we watched in horror as Fargo was ravaged by the flooding Red River. I think we all recognize Manitoba is facing the same situation and danger at this time. I am pleased to thank the government for what appears to be strong action in preparation for this flood. I would also like to add a word of thanks to former Premier Duff Roblin whose vision of a floodway has been-[ applause] But today it looks like a good investment. While Winnipeg has a floodway, individual farmers are often left to defend themselves.

Compensation for rural flood damages in the past year has created problems between the federal and provincial governments. Can the minister indicate if the problem in this area has been solved? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, I think it is important to acknowledge-and also goes back to the question that was asked about the situation in Transcona. Governments, after having gone through the 1950 flood-and again, certainly a credit to Duff Roblin and his government and the vision they had to put the floodway in place.

Many colleagues sitting in this room were involved in the ring dike and the building program of raising-my colleague the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) very much a part of it-of building sites following the 1979 flood which again helped considerably to overcome the problems of flood levels to that height. Again Mother Nature is challenging us with the levels that are being presented to us, and I am sure that there again will be decisions that will have to be made by government. The whole question of compensation, Madam Speaker, is one which has been ongoing.

I know in the Assiniboine River Valley, the Souris River Valley, the Red River Valley, traditionally we have had in place under crop insurance a seeded, nonseeded acreage program which basically was in place to cover that. By the way, I should again acknowledge Premier Duff Roblin when he was in. It was under his leadership that the Manitoba Crop Insurance program came into place. So I do believe that is the program that is in place.

However, we would hope, and I say this genuinely, the federal government would be a little more co-operative than they were in trying to sort out the differences in the 1995 flood when it came to the compensation for municipalities in 1995 on the Assiniboine River system. Crop Insurance Program Mr. Neil Gaudry (St.

Boniface): Madam Speaker, with the potential for serious flooding, can the Minister of Agriculture tell this House if Manitoba is willing to increase coverage under the Crop Insurance program, as per the letter sent to the minister by his federal counterpart that would see the Government of Canada contribute $1 .38 million and the province, $920,000? Hon.

Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, it would, in the first instance, have been a courtesy if the Minister of Agriculture of the province of Manitoba, that co-partners this program of support to the Manitoba farmers, would have been informed of this decision prior to a public press release that emanated from Minister Goodale.

There are serious complications involved in a decision of this kind, financial ones for the province, which we have not had an opportunity to address, and questions of equity in terms of how other farmers were treated in '95 and '96 who faced a similar situation on the upper reaches of the Assiniboine River. All of those issues, I have to take into account and will.

On the other hand, let me also remind honourable members of the House that it is of constant amazement to all of us, the resilience of the Red River farmers who last year under similar circumstances, with much of the Red River Valley under water, managed to get their crop

April21, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1669 into the ground within the current guidelines of the programs and managed to take off a bountiful harvest. So it is premature at this point to consider any other moves. Livestock Compensation Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Boniface): To the Minister of Agriculture: Has the minister considered increasing coverage for livestock destroyed by the flood? Hon. Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I would not want to presume on the jurisdiction of my colleague the Minister of Government Services (Mr.

Pitura) who administers the Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board's activity, but it is my experience, having had the privilege of having been minister of that portfolio at one stage of my career, that such material losses, damages to buildings, damages to stored hay or to grain, otherwise uninsured items would be favourably looked at by that group that will have, regrettably, a great deal of work to do once the waters subside. * (1 400) Man Globe Partnership Agreement Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier and has to do with the ManGlobe project.

The steering committee meeting of July 14, 1995, details the partners of ManGlobe as MTS, a publicly owned company, with a hundred thousand dollars in cash and $385,000 in kind, the provincial government at a half-million dollars, the federal government at $200,000 and Canada Post at a hundred thousand dollars in kind. That is a total of $1 .285 million in public funds, at a minimum, in this project. At that time, we were looking at something just shy of a million dollars in private funds, and all but a hundred thousand dollars of that money was in-kind services. Only a hundred thousand dollars was cash.

Clearly, this is a heavily subsidized company with very little results and a very highly paid management. I would like to ask the minister: What have the taxpayers got to show for this public expenditure of $1 .285 million? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, I think it is time to correct the record for the member for Elmwood.

First of all, the communications agreement that was put in place between the province and the federal government was not purely a business agreement but a research and development agreement to develop new communication technology, bring new business opportunities to the province of Manitoba. That was the overall objective of the program. It is an R & D, a research and development project, of which we were a partner with the bank, with Canada Post and with the Manitoba Telephone System. The member asked a question last week dealing with several issues.

First of all, he likes to play with numbers and do what is less than responsible. He made reference to the fact that there were to be 175 jobs. I do not know what research and development project would develop 175 jobs. I believe the more accurate figure would be between I 0 and 20 jobs which they were targeting, of which they currently have 10.

So it is a research and development project which will in the long term bring new jobs and opportunities to this province, not a direct business loss as would be invested in by Manitoba Telephone System in Saudi Arabia where $29 million was frittered away by he and his government. Information Request Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, I have a supplementary to the minister, and that is that the minister also wrongly claimed that the Royal Bank was a partner, last week, when both the bank and MTS had bailed out some time ago.

I would like him to confirm for the public record that this is in fact true, and I would ask him to release copies of all relevant ManGlobe contracts. I would like to tell him what was actually developed under this R & D program. Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, I understand that the Manitoba Telephone System's board of directors resigned his position, but I can also tell him that there is a new additional person with private sector capital that has come to the table with some additional money and some additional skills.

I also understand that the Royal Bank are still involved with the project, that they have not withdrawn their money from it.

1670 LE GISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April21, 1997 Again, the member is trying to malign a young woman who was nominated by the entrepreneur businesswomen of Manitoba last year, nominated as the businesswoman of the year. The Financial Post identified her and her company as one of the leading 25 companies in the country that were going to show new ways in the telecommunications business. Madam Speaker, there are things that may have been able to have been done differently.

It is involved with management, but as far as the province is concerned, we have invested in research and development that I believe will in fact help develop the technology that is needed in the telecommunications system. Michael Bessey Role Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Well, I think the minister will have to admit that this project so far has been a colossal failure, and I am waiting for him to say that. I would like to ask the minister a final supplementary and that is: Would the minister detail the role that Mr. Michael Bessey played in the development of this project? Hon.

James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, I do not accept the premise that this has been a failure. Research and development is the responsibility of everyone. We have invested in research and development for the province of Manitoba. It is still in operation. There is new private capital coming to the table. I do not know why the New Democratic Party would want to clap when a company is having to make some changes in management. I will take as notice what involvement Mike Bessey had, but I do not believe he had any as it related to the project. I will check and get confirmation of that.

Tourism Advertising Contract Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, last week I asked the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism who got the major contract to market Manitoba. The minister, who actually took the contract to Treasury Board, professed not to have the details. How can the minister, who took the contract to Treasury Board, whose ministry it is, avoid the appearance, at least, of misleading the House when he clearly knew the answer to my question but professed not to know? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I did not do anything to mislead this House.

When one does not have the complete information, which is important to the House, it is quite within the rules to take the question as notice. That is what I did. My colleague has provided the additional information, and if the member has a legitimate question, I am prepared to deal with it. Mr. Sale: The Finance minister did not even bother to tell the House. He told the press outside the House. Madam Speaker: The honourable member, to pose his question now. Mr. Sale: Will the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism now table the contract with Brown and Biggar? Mr.

Downey: Madam Speaker, again, as has been referred to, there were proposals put forward by some 14 companies. There were three short-listed, and two were the successful proposal proponents. The amount was for $1 40,000, which was less than what had previously been spent on this project. I do not know what more there is to provide to the House, other than the amount and who got it. I do not know what the New Democratic Party has against women being in business. I do not know what they have against women being in business.

This is at least two that they are maligning as it relates to being in business, so I will let them defend their own policies. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, it is monkey business we have problems with. Will the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) tell the House whether or not the bid from Biggar and Brown was in fact the low bid and, if so, by how much? Mr. Downey: As I said at the outset, there were proposals put forward of which the evaluation that was

April 21, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 167 1 done on those proposals pointed out that the combination of Biggar ideas and the Brown comb ination was the best proposal for the job that we had to do. Again, I forgot there was another individual in the female category. It was Bev McMaster with We Care daycare that they just could not continually pound and drummed them out of the province. I think they are going to have to revisit their policies as it relates to women in business. Manitoba Health Services Breast Protheses Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I have a question fo r the Minister of Health. People in Brandon have brought to my attention that the government is penalizing women who are afflicted with breast cancer and require a mastectomy resulting in readjustments which can be devasta ting fo r many women. This problem can be helped with a proper breast prosthesis, but MHSC coverage is totally inadequate, forcing many women who cannot afford to pay to use substitute prostheses which are homemade and inferior.

The result can be increased risk of developing shoulder drop, spinal curvature, balance problems and neck and back problems. My question to the minister is: Would he look into this and ensure that adequate financial assistance for prostheses is provided to such women? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, yes, certainly. In fact, we are in the process of doing that now. * (1 410) Mr. Leonard Evans: I thank the minister for that answer.

A supplementary, Madam Speaker: Will the minister acknowledge that prosthesis replacements are not a matter of cosmetics but that the issue is the physical, emotional and psychological well-being of the women who are forced to deal with the devastating diagnosis of breast cancer? Mr. Praznik: Yes, Madam Speaker, absolutely. I concur fully with the member on that particular statement. Mr. Leonard Evans: Madam Speaker, I appreciate the minister's response.

My final supplementary to round this out: Will the minister acknowledge that breast reconstruction following mastectomy is a fully insured service and far more expensive than a prosthesis and that therefore it should make eminent sense to the government to provide full covera ge as is done with other replacements such as hip replacements and lens implants? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, yes, I certainly acknowledge that different treatment for the result of the surgery.

Obviously, as the member will appreciate from his days around the executive table of Executive Council, we have a number of things in Health that develop over time in which we pay for procedures or for devices. We do not have an endless budget. It is a matter, though, of working around priorities to look at re-evaluating how we currently do it. I appreciate that the cost of these particular prosthetic devices have risen faster than the support that we provide, and it is time to look at it. I know the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr.

Tweed), who works with me on many of these issues, has met with that group, and it is an area that I will be considering as time permits in the very near future. Flooding Federal Compensation Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I have a further question to the Acting Premier on the flood situation and the pending flood situation and past flood situations. Last Friday when I talked about a potential federal pre-election announcement from the federal government, the Acting Premier at that time, the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Cummings), was fairly optimistic that a positive announcement would be made. The Acting Premier today sounds skeptical about whether announcements will be made or was rather negative about an announcement being made.

1672 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21 , 1997 I would like to ask: In light of the fact that it only makes sense for the federal government to treat Manitoba the same way as they treated Quebec in the Saguenay floods where 90 percent funding was released to the province of Quebec, notwithstanding whether it was a municipal service or another service, will Manitoba municipal workers and Manitoba municipal services and Manitoba municipal equipment be treated in the past and in the present and in the future the same way as we have a disaster relief for other provinces like Quebec? Hon.

James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for that question. It is a matter of fairness, as has been pointed out by my colleague the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns). It is absolutely true that there were unfair policies carried out in the province of Manitoba where in 1995 the municipalities were denied the claims that they put forward as they related to the use of their own equipment, a practice that for many years had been carried out.

We will expect no less treatment than what has taken place in the rest of Canada as it relates to the support for the people of Manitoba and our communities. I can assure him that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) will be and is certainly a strong supporter of making sure that we get that fair and equity play and has been strongly supportive of trying to rectify the past that was presented to us by the federal government. Mr. Doer: All of us feel this announcement is long, long overdue, and we will await hopefully a final announcement on this outstanding matter. Military Resources Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): We understand some military resources have been called on Friday, but not all the military resources available to Manitoba have been called upon. It makes again a lot more sense to us to have the military resources available to Manitobans to prevent flooding, to prevent disaster rather than after the fact to help us in an evacuation process. Can the government advise us what is the status? understand only I 00 military personnel were out.

To date, what is the status of the military situation, and does it not make sense to use as many resources as possible to prevent flooding rather than after the fact dealing with an evacuation scenario? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Prior to answering the question, I can inform the House that I understand that there is a briefing at four o'clock today in Room 68 with Larry Whitney, who is the manager of Water Planning and Development, and Harold Clayton, executive director of Manitoba Emergency Management Organization. If there are other arrangements made for further information from the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) and the House leaders, I will leave that as part of it. Again, that is correct. I believe there are I 00 military personnel that have been deployed to deal with the situation and that there are something like 600 at this particular time as backup. Again, it is a matter of balance. I know that, particularly when you are facing this situation as the problem is developing, you do not want to burn out all your resources at the initial stage; you want to act appropriately. The comments the member makes are certainly worthy of consideration.

It is a matter of those people who have experience and are professional in dealing with those situations that will be called upon to deploy them as they are needed. Hopefully, it works out that we do not get rain and we do not get a lot of unknowns that could cause a considerable amount more problems to the situation. I thank the member again for the question, and I am able to put that other information on the record. Madam Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS Flooding- Volunteerism Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St.

Norbert): Madam Speaker, do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for St. Norbert have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed]

April 21 , 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 1673 Mr. Laurendeau: I rise today to pay tribute and give thanks for the heroic efforts of the citizens of Winnipeg and indeed of all Manitobans as they join together to help one another battle the effects and prepare for severe flood waters. Over the past two weeks in my St. Norbert constituency, individuals from across the city and across our province have come to aid in sandbagging and preparation work.

Corporations have donated food and beverages, school children and church groups have come to lend a hand and residents have offered their vehicles and time for transportation. Neighbours provided for neighbours and strangers came to the aid of strangers. These past few weeks Manitoba has worn its heart on its sleeve as we band together once again to help our fellow citizens. This is not the only time for citizens to join forces but also for governments to come together.

The co-operation at the city and municipal levels has been tremendous, and I would like to give special notice of the work done by the officials and workers of the City of Winnipeg who continue to provide valuable information and assistance. Many of our city and provincial employees have come through one onerous week fo llowing the recent blizzard and are now working long and difficult hours to prepare for the yet-rising river levels, and their efforts are to be commended. While much assistance has already been given, the reports from our neighbours to the south show that a great deal is yet to be done.

I once again appeal to the generosity of Manitobans and ask that they renew their efforts and continue to aid in this time of need. This is a challenging time for Manitobans; however, members of this Chamber have learned from experience that when help is needed, Manitobans offer their hands, their homes and their hearts to the efforts. I know that they will come again. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Celebration of Passover Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Nonpolitical statement, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Osborne have leave? [agreed] Ms.

McGifford: I rise today to recognize the Jewish high holiday of Passover which officially begins tonight, April 21 , at sundown. Passover is at the heart of Judaism as it commemorates both the liberation and freedom of the Israelites from bondage and the return of Jews to Israel, the homeland, and, of course, the holiday is replete with the richness of metaphor which both movements imply. The celebration of Pesach or Passover takes place in spring, the time of reawakening and new lif e.

The feast includes a glass of wine for each person at the table and a glass for the prophet Elijah, who is believed will bring peace to the world. The door is left open to welcome the hungry and the prophet of peace. The feast includes the Seder plate of five symbol ic foods partially for the growth of spring but dipped in salt water reminiscent of the tears of bondage.

Maror, the bitter herb linked to the bitterness of slavery; a roasted egg symbolic of sacrifice; a lamb shank to symbolize the lamb roasted before the departure from Egypt; and charoseth, a mixture of walnuts, apples, sugar and red wine symbolizing the clay used to build Pharaoh's cities. The table includes matzo, the unleavened bread, which reminds the celebrants that the Israelis had to leave quickly before their bread could rise. * (1 420) The youngest child at the table asks the four questions designed to reveal the significance of the holiday. How is this night different from all other nights?

Why do we eat only bitter herbs tonight? Why do we dip food tonight, and why do we only recline, not sit, tonight? Passover highlights for Jews the joy and sweetness of freedom and the bles sings of liberation. On Passover, Jews remember those still in bondage and pray for the freedom of all peoples. I ask all members of the House to join me in wishing Jews here and everywhere a happy and fulfilling Passover. Seniors Wellness Centre Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Madam Speaker, do I have leave for a nonpolitical statement?

16 74 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 19 97 Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek have leave? [agreed] Mr. McAlpine: This past Friday, April 18 , I had the privilege of attending the first anniversary celebration of the Seniors Wellness Centre. The Seniors Wellness Centre has been working with seniors in the St. James Ass iniboia area to provide health information and programs for seniors to help keep them well and stay that way. This three-year project was established in co operation with the Deer Lodge Centre, Grace General Hospital, Manitoba Health and the St.

James Assiniboia Seniors Centre.

Some of the activities they have been involved in include: a community outreach study, conducting the medication information program, Knowledge is the Best Medicine, in the community, developing a false prevention program called Are You in Jeopardy?, presentations on seniors wellness to groups in the community, facilitating support groups for persons with Parkinson's disease, and Easy Breathers fo r those with chronic lung disease, providing workplace experience fo r health care students, counselling persons who visit the SWC and referring persons to appropriate resources, many more effo rts to promote wellness in the community.

So, on behalf of all members, I wish to extend the Seniors Wellness Centre hearty congratulations on the accompli shments they have achieved, and I am sure that all will continue to ensure seniors remain a healthy and vital component of Winnipeg. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Flooding- Volunteerism Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Do I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Radisson have leave? [agreed] Ms.

Cerilli: I want to make a nonpolitical statement today regarding the flood situation in south Transcona and over the weekend the effort to protect as many homes as possible from having the water pass over their property line from the ditches and flood their homes, their basements, their garages and damage their property. The flooding is costly. It has been heartbreaking. It has been exhausting, but it also has brought out the best in people. People have gotten to know their neighbours that are new in the area, and the community helps in situations like this like never before.

I want to give a few specific thank yous with regard to the sandbagging this weekend. First of all, the Transcona cubs and scouts who were out on the weekend to help, the many schools that are releasing students. As we speak, Transcona schools are releasing students to volunteer. There have also been a number of volunteers from all over the city bringing trucks to drive sandbags to people's homes and driving vol unteers over the water so they can get in to lay the sandbags.

Special thanks to the city volunteer co ordinators, Terry and John, who have been great over the telephone in dispatching volunteers; Purolator Courier who released three trucks and drivers; Pourex who donated a front-end loader; the Esso station on Dugald Road; Copa Cambana Pizza on Regent A venue who donated some pizza, and I do not know how they made 27 pizzas in an hour but they did; the south Transcona community club which donated some soft drinks, and Jean from the city who has been monitoring the sandbagging operation.

Of course, the residents of south Transcona should be commended for their perseverance, the many seniors in the area, many who are more than 70 years old who have had to put up with this for many years. There were volunteers working past 3:30 this morning, and I want to recognize their efforts and also let them know that I think all sides of the House are going to commit to do our damnedest to make sure that this is the last year that south Transcona has to put up with this. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Victoria LifeLine Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, may I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable minister have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed]

Aprii2I, I997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1675 Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, I recently had the pleasure of attending the lith Annual Volunteer Service Awards. As a Manitoban, I am so proud of all of our volunteers throughout the province. There is no work that is more rewarding, and we are also seeing a great commitment of volunteers at this time. There are also volunteers who volunteer all year long. This year for the awards there were II 0 nominations received for the Premie·r•s Volunteer Service A ward. This was a record high.

As the MLA fo r Fort Garry, I am very proud to congratulate the Victoria General Hospit al's Victoria Lifeline volunteers. The Victoria Lifeline volunteers received the Mayor's Volunteer Service A ward for the giving of their time, energy and talents to improving the well-being off ellow citizens in the area of health. Since I988, the Victoria Lifeline has provided services to over 5,200 Manitobans. Victoria Lifeline is a personal response service that supports senior adults and individuals in our community, who are physically challenged, to continue to live independently in their own homes.

The Lifeline provides the support to individuals which enables them, again, to remain in their homes. There are 30 Victoria Lifeline volunteers, and in the past year they have given over 3,700 hours of time and they have driven over 18 ,000 kilometres ensuring that subscribers of the program enjoy a good quality of service. On behalf of all members of the House, Madam Speaker, I congratulate the dedication of the volunteers who so generously donate their time to such a great cause. Congratulations, Victoria Lifeline. Manitoba Hydro Employees Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St.

James): Madam Speaker, I ask permission to make a nonpolitical statement. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for St. James have leave? [agreed] Ms. Mihychuk: Madam Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to recognize and congratulate the many Manitoba Hydro employees, over 11 0 Hydro employees who were sent down to Minnkota Power Corp. to help in restoration of power during the recent blizzard earlier this month. Some of those individuals are still in Grand Forks, and I am sure that we will have an update as to the flood situation.

In addition to the II 0 employees, Hydro also sent 100 pieces of all-terrain type vehicles and were recognized by the North Dakota commission who compared them to a well-oiled army on maneuvers and is literally amazed at the organization of our workforce and constantly commented on it. To the workers of Manitoba Hydro, I understand that their eff orts have set an example for the Americans, both employees of Minnkota Power and the residents of the area, for what the quality of Manitoba Hydro employees is all about.

All Manitobans should take pride in the effective and generous nature of their efforts and of the commitment to excellence that Manitoba Hydro brings to any endeavour. I feel comfortable in saying that as employees of a publicly owned Crown corporation, they understand that they represent all Manitobans. This has got to contribute to the motivation and pride they take in their work. That pride is showing in the results once again. From this House and all members, a great big thank you to Manitoba Hydro employees. ORDERS OF THE DA Y House Business Hon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I have several items of government business to discuss briefly with honourable members. Firstly, the Standing Committee on Public Accounts will meet on Thursday, May 15, 1997, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 in order to consider the Provincial Auditor's Report, Volume I, the Provincial Auditor's Report on Public Accounts and Operations of the Provincial Auditor's Office, the Public Accounts, Volumes I, 2, 3 and 4, all for the fiscal year ending March 31 , I996.

Secondly, Madam Speaker, I would like to announce that the Standing Committee on Economic Development will meet on Thursday, May 22, I997, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 in order to consider the I993 Annual Report of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation

16 76 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 19 97 and the 19 94, 19 95 and 19 96 Annual Reports of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation. Now, Madam Speaker, I suggest all honourable members in one way or another are af fected, as are so many other Manitobans, by the present flood situation. I have had discussions with representatives of the New Democratic Party and the Liberal Party, and I believe that you would find there to be agreement with two or three items.

Firstly, it is agreed that this week, so that honourable members can attend to their duties outside this Chamber, there will be no private members' hours this week. * (14 30) Secondly, on this part, the Estimates process it is felt can go forward under all of the circumstances since, for the most part, relatively few honourable members need to be involved at any given time.

However, there are times during the Estimates process when votes can be initiated, and I believe that if you check with honourable members you will see that there would be agreement that any votes that did come fo rward would be deferred, certainly for this week. By the end of this week we could have further discussions and look at the flood situation and the requirements of honourable members. It is also agreed, thirdly, that there will be no sitting this evening from eight until ten o'clock, that we would proceed from now until six o'clock, and then there would be no sitting tonight.

Now there are other matters we have discussed that we can bring up to date as the week unfolds, but I believe those are the areas of firm agreement at this time. Madam Speaker: First of all, fo r announcements. The Standing Committee on Public Accounts will meet Thursday, May 15, 10 a.m., Room 255 to consider the Provincial Auditor's Report. The Standing Committee on Economic Development will meet Thursday, May 22, Room 255 at I 0 a.m. to consider the 19 93, '94, '95 and '96 reports of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation. Now I need the other three by leave.

Is there leave to waive Private Members' Business for the duration of this week? [agreed] It is the understanding that the Estimates process will continue for the duration of this week. Is there leave to defer all votes fo r this week? [agreed] Thirdly, is there leave that the House will not sit this evening from 8 p.m. to 10 p.m.? [agreed] Mr.

McCrae: Madam Speaker, as I say, as there is any requirement to fine-tune arrangements around here so that honourable members can carry out their extra Legislature duties, House leaders, my office is of course open, and I believe the representatives of the other parties are also available to come together and discuss these matters. In addition, should there by a requirement for the House to be called fo r any purpose during the Estimates, I would be asking at the level of the Committee of the Whole sittings for leave to allow us to bring the House together for any statements or whatever that may be required.

Perhaps I might suggest that could be done at the two committee levels but also by the ringing of the bells briefly to bring the House together. That is simply a suggestion for you to consider. Madam Speaker, I now move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) in the Chair fo r the Department of Northern Affairs and the Department of Rural Develop ment; and the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair fo r the Seniors Directorate.

April 21, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 77 * (1 440) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) NORTHERN AFFAIRS The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs. When the committee last sat, it had been having a general discussion concerning the Estimates. Is it the will of the committee to continue with a general discussion? [agreed] Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Mr. Chairperson, I would ask for just a little bit more time in that area, and then we will wrap up, oh, I would say by 3:30 p.m. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): Agreed? [agreed] Mr.

Lath lin: Now, I think last week, if I remember correctly, we were in a bit of a hurry-at least I was anyway because I was late coming into the Estimates and rather than going on to the next item that I wanted to ask the minister questions on, I will say what I had to say while I still have it fresh in my mind because I thought about it this afternoon. Last week towards the end of our meeting, I believe it was Wednesday, I sensed from the people who were here that, wow, geez, this is over, and maybe people are satisfied with what is happening at the local level up North.

I just wanted to advise people, particularly the minister and his staff, that, yes, even if the government were not to do anything, I think people would still develop anyway. The communities would still develop regardless of whether the government or anybody else was there. I mean, that is just the way things go. But growth and development happen a lot faster when it is being helped along by an agency whether it is the chief and council or whether it is the NACC or whether it is the provincial government or the federal government.

Development happens a lot more faster, and also it is supposed to happen according to the way the citizens want it to happen. I believe that is what the minister was trying to say toward the end last week when he was being questioned by the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) or maybe by the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) when he said we do not tell you what to do; you tell us what you want to do and then we can work around toward your issues and see if we can achieve the objectives. Yes, that is fine.

That is the way I would prefer it to work as well, but I think we might be oversimplifying some things to the point where people actually believe that we are doing a real super, super job and that we really do not have to worry too much about it anymore. I think the reverse is true, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate what the federal government has done. I appreciate what the provincial government has done. I appreciate it, particularly in cases where the local government has been able to be in a position to be able to contribute to the growth and development of its own citizens. So I understand all of that.

When I was a chief, I always used to tell my people that we have such a long, long way to go. For example, in order to emphasize, in order to drive home the point, I used to use women in their struggles in society, or any other oppressed group. But I used to use the women as an analogy and I used to say: You know, they have been organized for quite a while now and look where they are. Yes, they are achieving certain rights.

The government is starting to recognize a lot of the rights that women were fighting fo r, and then I used to talk about our people, and aboriginal people are usually 15 , 20 years behind what happens in the larger society, so the nonaboriginal women's rights are finally recognized as a result of all their fighting and lobbying, but when you get down to the aboriginal community, we are still l5 , 20 years. I used to tell our people, yes, 15 or 20 years later we see ourselves and our women being recognized in the same way by the larger society. But I am talking about aboriginal people here.

When I was home over the weekend I saw in the newspaper a comment that was made by the chief executive officer of the Norman Regional Health Authority, Mr. Hildebrand. As a matter of fact, they put it right on the first page and right in the middle where they wanted to

1678 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21 , 1997 highlight the quote. He said: There are too many people using the hospital over and over again. Right away I picked up on it, and I thought: This guy is talking about aboriginal people again, you know, because if the minister is in The Pas again, I know he was there this weekend, but if you are ever in The Pas, take a quick run through the hospital, and if there are 20 people there, you will find maybe 16, 1 7 aboriginal people there as patients in the hospital, and that is the way it is all the time.

So when this chief executive officer talks about we still have far too many people using the hospital over and over again, I was thinking, as a matter of fact, I think I am going to phone him up, if he will give me some of his time, and I am going to tell him some of the reasons why there are so many people still using the hospitals. The majority of those are aboriginal people. * (1 450) For years and years the state of health of the aboriginal community level was about 15, 20 years behind that of , say, The Pas, and it has always been that way.

Then along comes health reform, community based prevention, awareness, healthy lifestyles, like, that is the way we are going to do it from now on; treatment is too expensive. Yet we hear every day the diabetic cns1s, the epidemic. You look at reports that are put out by medical groups, for example, the College of Physicians and Surgeons, where even accidental deaths in the aboriginal community are way higher compared to, and people wonder why. Are these people that accident prone? The fact of the matter is, yes, we use more skidoos in wintertime.

We use more boats and motors than you guys do in Winnipeg, because people living in Winnipeg, the only time they use boats and motors and skidoos is if they want to go and have a leisure time out on the lake on weekends. Of course, their accident rate is going to be way, way down compared to that trapper who has to be on his skidoo every day in the wintertime or that fisherman who is out there every day in his boat.

I cannot get over that, how people can make those kinds of statements, like the chief executive officer from Norman region who just comes right out-and the sad part of it is people who are not aware of the facts believe him. Even some of our people are going to start believing him. That is what went through my mind when I read those remarks.

Then I sort of remember back to Estimates in the Legislature where I sort of detected this mood towards the end of our session last week like, gosh, dam it, this government has done lots of big things and here are these partnership programs and aboriginal people are being well looked after. That is what came to my mind right away when I saw that quote by the chief executive officer. When you go to Pukatawagan, fo r example, if the minister ever goes to Pukatawagan, they are lucky if they see a doctor a couple of days every two weeks.

So when you get ill or get into an accident, you do not see a doctor; you see a nurse. Not like in Winnipeg here, if I have to go to a hospital or see a doctor here in Winnipeg, I get seen by a nurse first. Yes, she gets all the information, but the actual examination is done, the diagnosis is done, the testing is done by the doctor. If you are in the North, none of that happens. You are seen by a nurse; the nurse diagnoses. The nurse determines whether you should be given the treatment. The nurse gives you the medicine. The nurse takes the X-ray. The nurse does everything.

In the end, she has to decide whether you are serious, like if the condition or illness is serious enough so you have to be medi vac'd. She makes that decision and then you come out. Pukatawagan alone, Mr. Chairperson, over 300 medivacs in one year, over 300. Just think about it for a little while. There are 36 5 days in the year. That is almost one every day fo r the entire year. Put another twist to that perspective. Every time you medivac a person to The Pas, for example, how much does it cost? Lots of money.

We know that, but I think the point I want to make here is the state of health in Pukatawagan is always 15, 20 years behind. For OCN it is not as bad, because we are right across the river from the town. So our state of health is not as bad. Hey, we can even cope with some of the reform cutbacks that are happening at the hospital, because if we do not like it over there-you know what, some of us drive to Winnipeg and come and see the doctor, those of us who can affo rd it, but then a lot of us cannot afford it either, so we are stuck there. The bottom line

April 21 , 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1679 is, generally, the people in The Pas, when you compare yourself to Pukatawagan, they are a little bit better off. You come down to Winnipeg; the people in Winnipeg complain about what is happening here. You know what? If they go to The Pas, they would complain even louder. They would say we do not deserve this. Why do we allow this to happen in this day and age? And holy smokes, if they go to Pukatawagan, it would be a scandal. It would be.

Then they come back out and they read this chief executive officer's comments in the paper saying, we have far too many people still using the hospital. He means aboriginal people, and I would like to just take him by the shoulder and just shake him a little bit. Hey, sir, wake up, smell the coff ee. Do you realize why that situation is like that? Because people in Pukatawagan were behind even before health reform started. Now health reform comes along and it just makes things a hundred times worse for those people. I want to come back to the main comment that I wanted to make.

I will acknowledge that there is some work being done, but I cannot stop there. I have to keep saying that there is a lot more to be done. Another thing, today I got a letter from a dentist from the Manitoba Dental Association. I had written to them about an issue that I was working on. The head of the Manitoba Dental Association says, what are you worried about, treaty Indians get all the government help anyway when it comes to dental? So does that mean there is a dentist in every community in northern Manitoba? Does that mean we get to have our teeth examined once a year like people in Winnipeg do?

See that is how ignorant some people are and we feed on that ignorance. We talk to each other every day and after awhile aboriginal people just get lost in the shuffle. Sometimes I listen to radio talk shows when I am driving out to The Pas or coming in, in the afternoon, and it just really, really appalls me the level of ignorance there is amongst nonaboriginal people for the conditions that aboriginal people find themselves in. * (1 500) So anyway those were going to be my comments, and I guess I wanted to finish off , Mr. Chairman, by asking the minister perhaps three questions here.

I think I heard him last week say that he was on his way to Regina for ministers' meetings on aboriginal issues, I think it was. First of all, I guess the way that I should ask the question is: Does the minister believe that the Royal Commission on Aboriginal af fairs was warranted, and does he believe that it has some worthwhile recommendations that his government could look at with a view to implementing them so that we can start to alleviate some of the problems that we have been just talking about or that I have been talking about lately? That would be the first part.

So I guess I will give the minister some time to answer. Hon. David Newman (Minister ofNorthern Affairs): Generally, I want to just comment with respect to your, I think, very helpful picture of the distance we have to go in addressing aboriginal needs in the North and your point about it being 15 to 20 years behind. I know the way I am thinking about it.

I think the solution has to be focusing on prevention, education, care, research and support in ways that will take maybe 25-30 years to bring about significantly measurable results which will be reflected, I believe, mainly in the next generation's improvements. So I think your contribution of realism and the magnitude of the challenge and the long-term solution is helpful, because then expectations will not be inflated.

Also, I think that you have made a usef ul contribution with respect to the need to educate the decision makers and the people in positions of authority and significant responsibility for everything from social welfare to health care to education to justice, to the way we administer Northern Affairs responsibilities. I think that you have said that there has to be a better understanding of the special needs and the nature and magnitude of the challenge, and there has to be a sensitivity towards the history and the culture and the feelings of the aboriginal people who are af fected by this challenge.

So I think your points are well taken, and having said that, you can be assured that I appreciate that. I believe my government appreciates that. I believe that with respect to health care, some of the work that is being done in the dismantling and negotiations right now through the offices of the Honourable Darren Praznik to the extent it affects Manitoba aboriginals, myself, is very conscious of these challenges. There are approaches being offered that your critic for Health might wish to take up with

16 80 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri 1 21, 19 97 the Honourable Darren Praznik when he does Estimates in relation to aboriginal health care. I do not want to move into his area. He has the expertise; I do not. But I encourage that to be explored, because I think there are some things happening there that are consistent with what you are talking about here. Very specifically, I do have some knowledge and involvement with the Manitoba Health diabetes initiative.

I know you have a resolution before the House that I will be participating in when we get to that in private members' hour, but there is a kind of focused specific effort that is, I believe, going about things the right way. It does include elements of prevention and early intervention and all of the other aspects that will hopefully address this challenge of epidemic proportions. The statistics that I have are that in 19 93, approximately 23 percent of treaty Status Indian adult women in Manitoba had clinically diagnosed diabetes.

In 19 93, 14 percent of treaty Status India n adult men had clinically diagnosed diabetes. The prevalence of diabetes in treaty Status India ns increased by over 40 percent among women and over 50 percent among men between 19 83 and 19 86. There is an increasing number of aboriginal children who have been diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes, a disease not usually seen in children, so that says it all. That is just a

summary of the kind of issue that you flag. I think it is important that we work multidepartmentally and multigovernmentally on both sides of the House to address this kind of issue, and I certainly look forward to working on it with you as the representative of The Pas who has an interest and an understanding of the magnitude of it. Having said all of that, with respect to your question, yes, I was at a provincial and territorial ministers' meeting in Regina l!15t Thursday night and Friday, and it was a very useful meeting, a lot of sharing of information between jurisdictions which help each other.

In specific response to your question, do I believe that the royal commission was warrante d, the simple answer to that is yes. I mean, we have a crisis in this country, I believe, in terms of aboriginal issues. Whether or not that much money should have been spent on it, whether the composition of the commission should have been as it was, whether or not the focus of the report and the way it reviewed things was the right way to go, I do have views on that.

I have some discomf ort with some of those things, but it is a done thing, so what is the point of talking about it, other than I think that affects the credibility and the practicality and the relevance to Manitoba of a lot of the recommendations. * (1510 ) However, my government and my department have treated it very seriously to the degree to which it has been reviewed on a multidepartmental basis. Very shortly after it was published, the process began.

The recommendations which were considered through that process to be applicable to Manitoba have been identified, and the approach that Manitoba should take with respect to those rec ommendations is in the process of being developed. The good news is that in Regina, amongst the ministers, there is a willingness to share approaches to the royal commission report so that there can be co-ordinated solutions.

One of the major focuses at that meeting was on what was jointly and severally identified by all present representing the provinces and territories-! might say only Nova Scotia was absent-that with the issue of federal, what is popularly called oftloading, the risk of having in the process of devolution and in the process of turning over powers and resources to the aboriginal populations in the provinces and territori es is that there might not be proper due regard for the respo nsibilities that the federal government, the Crown, has trad itionally had for aboriginal people.

There is a great feeling amongst all the provinces and territories that the historic and legal obligation of the federal government with respect to its responsibilities for aboriginal people off reserve is not being met, has not been met, with the result that a huge burden has been absorbed by the provinces and territories in ways that are not being properly measured. It is undermining potentially, and maybe actually, our ability to service the aboriginal population up to the standard that we would like and that they are entitled to.

So that is a big issue, and emerging out of that meeting was the beginning of a consideration of strategic options, and I

Apri l 21, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1681 can proudly say that Manitoba led the process. We came forward with some options, and they were the focus, and the major focus of discussion at the event. The national aboriginal leadership was invited to partici pate in the event as well and had the options paper shared with them. They also had a joint communique, participated in the development of that.

It is becoming quite clear to me that the interests of the provinces, territories and aboriginal people is becoming more and more like a partnership, and that is necessary because it is the only way that it appears that the federal government can be held accountable for its historic and legal responsibilities and constitutional responsibilities, as we see it. So if the royal commission contributed to that creation of a partners hip, that in itself justifies the report, and may even very well justify the expenditure, if it results in a solution. Does it have some worthwhile recommendations was your next question.

The answer is: Yes, and those recommen dations are the ones that will be focused on. The thing that really disturbs me about it is its-and I took this up in fairness with two of the commissioners who were here in Manitoba when I had an opportunity to meet with them, and my concern is its lack of recognition, adequate recognition of the realities in Manitoba and the nature of the situation in Manitoba, the history in Manitoba, the direction Manitoba is going, some of the achievements that have been taking place in Manitoba.

What I fear most is that, if the report in effect creates an agenda which causes progress in Manitoba to slow down, or a temptation to move entirely in a different direction, which is what the royal commission in some themes recommends, then the commission report will do more harm than good, in my opinion.

That causes me grave concern, but I believe that we have a sufficiently mature relationship amongst Manitobans, and a sufficient background of interacting through discussions and negotiations, that we will not slip that way, and Manitobans will not be directed that way, and we can continue to make our own custom tailored progress in this province arriving at mutual gains, con structive solutions between aboriginal people, the federal government, the provincial government, the city governments and municipal governments, and between different aboriginal groups, which is as much a challenge as intergovernmental co-operation.

We are going to make progress as long as we do it collaboratively and co-operatively in good faith and focus on the long term, focus on women and children and at-risk people particularly. Then the theory, the romantic concept of how things should be, will not get in the way of getting practical, meaningful results for people in desperate need of attention. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, last July, last summer sometime, the federal government reduced social assistance rates to First Nations communities in Manitoba. They do that, by the way, after the provincial government reduces theirs.

Automatically, once there is a reduction to the provincial rate, the federal government will-in a similar time as I think I will ever see a federal government move so fast is when they have to go in synch with the provincial social assistance rate . So, anyway, whenever provincial rates go down, federal government rates go down. Last summer, the federal government said the amount that they were going to be saving by reducing the social assistance rate would go toward housing.

Well, in Manitoba, I believe the only two communities which may have benefited from this redirection of money on the federal side might have been Shamattawa and Mat hias Colomb in Pukatawagan. These are First Nations communities. Is the minister aware of the housing conditions that exist in First Nation communities? If so, what is he prepared to do, maybe in working with the federal government or maybe even coming up with a provincial initiative to combat the serious shor tage of housing?

That is one question. * (1 520) Then the other one is, NACC communities, Metis communities-over the past three years I have had to work on quite a few housing issues. Almost everywhere I go, I end up having to talk about housing issues. The first question to that, the Metis side, is is the minister aware of what is happening with housing

16 82 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 19 97 at the Metis community level and aware of the housing situation at the NACC communities? By that I mean not only whether there is a shortage or disr epair, but I am also asking the minister if he is aware of the shift that has happened from the province to the federal government, and somewher e in the middle the NACC communities are caught up. Some of the administration apparently was decentralized, I am not sure from where, from Manitoba Housing or after CMHC had gotten a hold of the program, but there was decentraliza tion.

So as a result of that movement and who was responsible for what, the Metis communities, I think, are probably the hardest hit in terms of housing amongst aboriginal people, because they do not really know whether-is it Manitoba Housing, is it MMF, is it CMHC? They just keep bouncing from one organization to another in addition to being short of houses and having to repair houses. Mr.

Newman: First of all, I just wanted to comment that given we thought this was just going to get down to formalities and I was advised by you not to have my staff here, I will not be able to be as factually specific as I would like to be to address your questions, but I will deal with my general knowledge and, I might say, views on this matter. Yes, I am aware of the housing issues in both reserve communities and Northern Aff airs communities, and they trouble me. They trouble me. Just to apply numbers, and I think this is useful, I will deal with Northern Aff airs communities first because I know them best.

They are my portfolio. The federal government is something that interests me because members of bands on reserve are Manitobans as well, and I want to make sure that the federal government which has responsibility for them looks after them in accordance with their legal and constitutional obligations and I would say even more than that because of the special needs. But with respect to Northern Aff airs communities, when we are talking about houses, we are talking about roughly 23,338 homes, and I just got that stat today because of my own interest.

The size of these communities-! mean, let us put it in perspective. The community with the most houses is Wabowden with 19 0; Camperville I8 4; South Indian Lake 12 3; Norway House 13 0; Duck Bay I4 2; Cross Lake 13 9; Cormorant III ; Moose Lake I 03 . All the rest of the 53 communities have less than a hundred houses on them, and some of those communities-and I am just talking about ones that have any population at all because some communities I am responsible for do not have any people in them. The community of Westgate has three houses. Herb Lake Landing has five. Aghaming has five. Salt Point has five.

Red Sucker Lake has eight. Poplarville has nine and six are empty. Is land Lake Was has nine. Little Grand Rapids has eight. Princess Harbour has 1 0; Dauphin River 20; National Mills II ; Granv ille Lake 14 ; Homebr ook 17 ; Red Deer Lake 19 ; Dallas-Red Rose I5 ; Fisher Bay I9 ; Cole Lake 18 . We are talking about in many cases less than a neighbourhood, less than a street, less than a little cul de-sac in a suburban subdivision, and these are in remote areas and in many cases isolated and by themselves. That is the context in which you are talking about housing.

So when someone says, like the question asked by the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), who is used to a city and the third biggest city in Manitoba, and asks about sewer and water and services, and the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) talks about defecating in buckets, I guess called pail fill sewage systems, the same type I have at my cottage, we are talking about not having water treatment plants and state-of-the-art sewer services in some communities, because it just does not make any economic sense.

What makes economic sense for Winnipeg or Thompson or Brandon or Winkler or Wabowden or Norway House might make no economic sense for a community of three, five, 10 , 20, 50 houses. So I think we have to look at that context. In other words, we have to look at the reality and not let rhetoric and oversimplistic statements sound as if these are somehow second-class citizens in the province in the way they have their water service, and the way they have their sewer service. There is a certain amount of choice that goes into living anywhere in the province of Manitoba.

I think, again, if we want to be realists and we want to be

April 21, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 83 responsible I think we have to recognize that.

In the process of contributing in the way that government can as a facilitator to the development of healthy, sustainable, more self-reliant communities, and improved housing, maybe those community members, if challenged to look 30 years down the road, or 25 years down the road, or 20 years down the road, a generation ahead, maybe amongst the questions that they should ask themselves, and the visions they should develop, they should look that far down the road and say, what do we want to be as a community at that point, and then figure out how they are going to get there .

If they cannot get there, maybe they should start examining whether they should be a community at all. * (1 530 ) I offer that simply as a kind of analysis, a kind of self-examination that I think every community hopefully will go through. If the choice is that, you know, we are happy really the way we are, it is not unlike someone choosing a way of life in terms of the way one chooses hobbies, chooses careers, chooses all these personal things that make our world go around. If that is the choice, then maybe the question should be asked, to what degree should we support that?

Do we have an obligation as a province to provide treated water and sewer systems and housing in those kinds of communities? I think those are questions that we should be asking. So there is the focus in terms of housing in Northern Affairs communities that I have. The other thing is there is a body of thinking, and I read quite widely in this area. I have always read quite widely in this area as a mature adult, and what do you do? How do people become the best they can be, and how do communities become the best they can be?

How do people in those communities, as individuals and community members, how do they achieve happiness and self-fulfilment? You know, sometimes we use different measures, because what is happiness and fulfilment to us living in the city, as you well know, is not what you want if you live in Red Sucker Lake or Herb Lake Landing or Matheson Island. So measures of success differ, and I do not think it is responsible for us, or right for us, to measure the success of these communities and those people by our standards.

They might think we are a dismal failure in our materialistic approach and they have great happiness and great sense of fulfilment. It is nothing to do with wealth. It is nothing to do with whether they have a job. Some of them have the greatest happiness you can possibly get in this world by being a trapper and contributing in enormously positive ways to their own family and their community. I told that story in the House of the 88-year-old trapper I met, and his 80-year-old wife, who still go out on the tra pline.

It is their passion, and they go to Continuing Education conf erences to keep up to date on how to do it and to share in the fellowship of it and the pride. It is moving. Are they less happy than someone that lives in a 55-plus unit in a condominium in Winnipeg and goes to Florida or Calif ornia or Texas every winter as a snowbird? They would not trade that for anything, and I am very conscious of that. So in terms of housing, who am I to judge what is a proper house for them.

Yes, I am aware of the housing issues, and I want to hear community members and individuals really talk about their aspirations, not just comparing themselves to Winnipeg, but talking about their aspirations five years, I 0 years, 20 years down the road . What do they want to be as a community? What do they want to be as individuals? What do they want to achieve?

Any time you, as the representative for The Pas or the representative for Rupertsland or the representative for Thompson, anyone from the North, it could be a mayor, it could be a mayor and council from a community, it could be an individual from a community, any time you share an aspiration that simply needs nurturing and encouragement, I think that is our job, as a Northern Aff airs department, to try and help because that is going to be the basis of the future in health, education, family services, jobs, economic development.

With respect to the reserve communities, sure, I will work with the minister of northern and native affairs federa lly to focus on housing issues just as we did with respect to Shamattawa, when I sent a letter to the minister, and Eric Robinson, the member for Rupertsland, sent a letter to someone else, to try and address a need there and indicate our point of view on it. I want the federal government to exercise its responsibil ity to the fullest and I believe they should even do more, but maybe the biggest favour they can do

16 84 LEGI SLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 19 97 is also focus on these foundational kinds of things and not just be a hand-out giver, be an individual builder and a community builder. That is what the aboriginal people want, as I understand it. With respect to the Metis people, and I will be more comprehensive than that, the northern people who live in Northern Affairs communities-and many of them are Status Indian, many are non-Status, many Metis, many just people who do not want to identify themselves with any of those categories.

The Manitoba Metis Feder ation has assumed a lot of responsibility with respect to housing, and I am hoping and praying that after May 15 when they get their own house in order and get their new leadership determined through democratic election, they will earnes tly, conscientiously and up to a high ethical standard represent their people well, the people in those areas who depend on housing, and focus on the economic development opportunities in doing housing, doing repairs, doing maintenance, even more so than they do now.

This is something that has been turned over in large measure to the Manitoba Metis Federation by the federal government, and what a chance to do something proud, to do something without letting patronage or nepotism or any of those things get in the way and to do a real service to their membership and to the people of Manitoba who are going to benefit, as well, from better housing in Northern Affairs communities. So I certainly will be challenging them to be better in representing their people, and I hope they will live up to the expectations of the citizens of Manitoba and their own members. Thank you. Mr.

Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, there is just this last little bit, perhaps more in response to the minister's last statement. You know, he talks about those two or three houses that might be there in the bush somewhere, about how he would be reluctant to put sewer and water services in those two or three homes, you know, because there are only two or three of them. Yet in most Metis communities, in most First Nations communities, we have RCMP who are funded by the taxpayers. The government will think nothing of-even if it is just one building, they will put in a septic tank or whatever.

They will do it in such a way that that RCMP officer, if he has a family, will have running water, all the amenities when it comes to sewer and water, good drinking water-they will dig a well. Teachers, same thing; the federal government puts in teacherages complete with sewer and water; Canada Post, all those government agencies, and they will have northern stores, too, their own, and the church. * (1 540) In just about all of the communities, we have two or three buildings then that have sewer and water.

I do not think I am suggesting here that we go around and build plants in every little community whether there are only two or three houses or 13 0. I mean, common sense will prevai l, I would hope. He talks about choice, like if you want to go and live in northern Manitoba, that is your choice, but do not expect me to do anything for you even though you are a citizen of Manitoba. I do not buy that at all because, first of all, in my earlier comments I suggested to the minister that some of us visit-I was sitting with the CEO of OmniTRAX Saturday night, and that was the very thing that we were talking about.

Some people go there for jobs. Sometimes they go there for a visit, for a holiday, and a lot of them end up staying up North, and they call it their home. Then there is another group of people, such as myself, who did not come from Halifax or Brandon or Winnipeg or Alberta somewher e or in the States or even in Sweden or Russia or those other places. That is where we were born. That is our homeland. I thought I made enough emphasis on that statement the other day with the minister. Now, for him to say, well, you know, that is your choice, whatever happens there.

Well, let me remind him, what about the farmers down south? Do we say to the farmers the land is flood prone? If you want to go and live by the river, that is your tough luck if the river should ever overflow. No, that is not how we handle it. The federal government just ordered the army to go there, and we are sitting down here. Schools are being closed. The Premier (Mr. Filmon) and some of his cabinet ministers, I heard on the rad io, were out flying around looking at the flood area, which incidentally

April 21, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 85 was flooded again, too, last year. Now, we did not go to those people and say, you know, if you want to live here in Morris or wherever, Letellier or Richer, and if it floods that is your problem. We do not do that. I sure as hell hope that we do not say that to people who choose to live in Overflow or Barrows or Herb Lake Landing-if you want to live here, do not bother us-because we do not say that to people in southern Manitoba whenever they get flooded out.

I would urge the minister to rethink that a little bit and maybe think about it before he says that. The last thing that I wanted to ask the minister is--oh, first, another thing. As he knows, when he talks about these NACC communities, there is such a thing as Bill C-31, and in our community, in practically all of the Metis community, you know, my own cousins, my own relatives, who were disenfranchised a long time ago are now through Bill C-31 becoming First Nations people. A lot of them still live on Metis land, so I understand, but in a lot of cases there is an adjacent First Nations community like The Pas.

So please do not tell me that I am not going to put a sewer and water system in for those three houses, because I know fully well that you can hook up to the Fir st Nations system if they have a system. Moose Lake, the communities are right adjacent to each other. Why not have one system in The Pas, in Big Eddy, Umperville, Young Point? Why do we not have one system so the minister does not have to come here next Estimates and tell me, you know, we are not going to do anything for those two or three houses, let them put their own stuff.

If you want us to work in partnership, why does he not hook up Big Eddy Metis, The Pas Metis, the Opaskwayak Cree Nation sewer and water system? That would make a lot of sense. Mr. Newman: Given the many points you made, I used to be exposed to legal counsel that would take arguments I used to present and, because the arguments were in their eyes I guess effective enough that they had to change them, would then recreate, rechara cterize the arguments so it diminished the effectiveness and would present itthat way. I feel, in a sense, that is what you have done.

I am going to take issue with it, but I am not going to engage in debate. I, of course, never said that the Northern Affairs would not do anything for them. We have an obligation to those under the Northern Aff airs support and we, of course, do that. What we were talking about earlier was whether or not you have treated water in the sophisticated system or you have a sophisticated sewer system or whether the less convenient kinds of facilities would be appropriate in a given situation. Point of Order Mr. Lathlin: On a point of order, Mr.

Chairman, I do recall the minister saying, ref erencing his cabin out at the lake. That is what he has, so therefore he does, you know, by saying that, I guess, he means that he does not expect the government to go and put sewer and water in this one cabin that is out at the lake. For me, the message is clear. What the minister was trying to tell me was perhaps two or three houses do not warrant the same attention as 14 0 houses.

What I was simply doing was telling him the reality that exists out there when, if you go to a place like Norway House First Nation, there is well over 5, 000 people living in Norway House, but for many, many years the only sewer and water system that existed in Norway House was the RCMP, northern store. I am not trying to recreate the argument or whatever he means. I am saying to him that I am trying to give him a realistic picture of what does exist there in terms of what he said about two or three houses or, make a choice, where do you want to live. The Acting Chairperson (Mr.

McAlpine): The honourable member does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): The honourable minister, to finish his comments. * (1 550) Mr. Newman: The other point, with respect to the RCMP, teachers, Canada Post and how they chose to provide services, is the kind of thing that probably has led, in part, to this sense of inequity, differential treatment. I am not going to either try and explain or justify that other than to say that those people who serve in those positions are not there by choice for life;

16 86 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 1997 they are there on a job. I guess that is the reason, on an assignment. They probably, because they have unions and they have standards, have a certain requirement. But that again does not address the issue as to whether or not the communities you are talking about, the individuals you are talking about, want that sort of way of life. They might be there for very specific reasons as indigenous people or career people in the North, people who have chosen as rooted people to stay there.

Sometimes with the greatest of intentions to impose the urban standards, they may not even be desired. I just raise that. With respect to the suggestion that somehow or other, no matter how small a community you are, you are somehow given less support in the event of a disaster, whether it be fire or flood, simply is not so. I really do find it troublesome when the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) does engage in this sort of pitting North against the south and suggesting there is some sort of differential treatment.

If there is a fire in the North, the Province of Manitoba and Disaster Assistance and Natural Resources and the full support system of governments go into play to protect people just as if there is flood or any other natural disaster. So just to get into this stereotyping is harmful to the quality of the debate. Point of Order Mr. Lathlin: Point of order, Mr. Chairman. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): The honourable member for The Pas, on a point of order. Mr. Lathlin: I think the minister did not understand my statements.

I am not saying that southern people who are being flooded out right now do not deserve the attention that they are getting. My point was those people who live in the flooded areas chose to live there themselves, and now that they are in trouble, we have to help them out, it is our responsibility. We do not say to them-as the minister was suggesting earlier for those who live up North-1 am sorry, you choose to live in a flood-prone area so therefore you are not entitled to help. The minister is zeroing in and says it is not good to use the flood as an example.

I am using that as an example because whether you live up North or south, I think people deserve to get those services. But what he was trying to say was you have a choice as to where you want to live, and in the end, wherever you choose to live might dictate as to what types of services you are going to get. That was my point. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): The honourable member does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. The honourable minister, to finish his response. * * * Mr.

Newman: I would make absolutely the same case if it were a community of three houses or six houses or I 0 houses in what you would call southern Manitoba. I mean, if there is the choice to move away from hydro lines and running water and all of these situations, that is a choice. That is what I mean by free choice. I make no apologies for that position. With respect to the facts in terms of the support of Northern Affairs, over the last three years we have maintained our capital support levels. With respect to our capital programs, which are about $2.6 million a year, our first priorities are water and sewage.

I am going to be tabling in response to requests the statistics about water and sewer. But with respect to piped water, I, 362 of the 2,3 38 homes have piped water now. That is 58 percent; more than the majority. Truck delivery is 322, that is I4 percent; stand pipe is 2I I, that is 9 percent; private well is 233, that is IO percent. The balance of private water systems, examples, pail or pumps from the lake. With respect to the sewer, I, II S or 48 percent have piped sewage; truck pump-out is 32I or I4 percent, and private septic field is 359 or 15 percent.

A pit privy, or popularly called outhouse, is 256 or II percent; pail fill, 2I I or 9 percent; and the balance of 3 percent I have not been able to determine. But those are the facts. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): I. Northern Aff airs Executive (

b) Executive Support ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $23 5,200-pass;

(2) Other expenditures $I2I, 700-pass.

April 2I, I9 97 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA I6 87 Item 2. Northern Affairs Operations (

a) Financial and Administrative Services (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3 I8 ,800-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $I I9 ,200-pass. 2.(

b) Program and Operational Support (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2 II ,800- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $87,2 00-pass;

(3) Community Operations $5,040,800-pass; ( 4) Regional Services 69 1 ,3 00-pass;

(5) Grants $253 ,700-pas s. 2.(

c) Community Support Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $I ,229,8 00- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $4 76,500-pas s. 2.(

d) Technical Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $I2 5, 700-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $64,700-pas s. 2.(

e) Northern Aff airs Fund

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $264,700-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $58,0 00-pass. 2. (

t) Inter-Regional Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $305,30 0-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $91 ,3 00-pass. 2.(

g) Agreements Management and Co-ordination

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $595 ,900-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 76,400-pass;

(3) Northern Flood Agreement $I ,230 ,000-pass. 2.(

h) Native Aff airs Secretariat

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $409,700-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $1 37,30 0- pass;

(3) Aboriginal Development Programs $444,900-pass;

(4) Partners for Careers $200,000-pass. 2.0) Communities Economic Development Fund $1 ,345,0 00- pass. *

(1600) Resolution 19 .2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $13 ,878, 000 for Northern Affairs, Northern Affairs Operations, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 98. 3. Expenditures Related to Capital (

a) Northern Communities $2,379,600-pass; (

b) Community Access and Resource Roads $23 5, 000-pass. Resolution 19 .3 : RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,6 14,600 for Northern Affairs, Expenditures Related to Capital for the fiscal year ending the 3I st day of March, 1998. The last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Northern Aff airs is item l. (

a) Minister's Salary $1 2,800. At this point, we request that the minister's staff leave the table for the consideration of this item. The last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs is item I. (

a) Minister's Salary $I2 ,800-pass. Resolution I9 .I: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $369,700 for Northern Affairs, Northern Affairs Executive $369,700 for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, I9 98. This now concludes the Estimates of Northern Affairs. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. McAlpine): The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this

section of the Committee of Supply are the Estimates of the Department of Rural Development. Does the committee wish to have a brief recess? I will give the committee of Estimates for Rural Development about two or three minutes to come forward and to deal with the Estimates. Comm ittee recess. The committee recessed at 4:03 p.m. After Recess The committee resumed at 4:08p.m. RURAL DEVELOPMENT The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Rural Development. Does the honourable Minister of Rural Development have an opening statement?

16 88 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 1997 Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Yes, I do, Mr. Chair. It is a pleasure for me to present the Departmental Estimates for Rural Development for the 1997-98 fiscal year. I am particularly pleased to announce that for the 1997-98 funding appropriations for the department we have had an increase of 1. 9 percent. This increase in funding has been a direct reflection of the department's success in delivering the kinds of programs and services rural Manitobans want and need to build strong and healthy communities.

The increases in existing program areas will continue to help our citizens in Manitoba to build on the successes they have already achieved. For example, funding will be increased for our Conservation District Program to enable us to increase the number of Conservation Districts that we have in the province of Manitoba. There have been some significant successes, I believe, in Manitoba over the last year, and I would like to highlight some of them. For example, we have generated more than $ 170 million in new investment in the province, in the rural side of the province.

We have had the creation of more than 2,000 full-time jobs in rural Manitoba, and also the creation of more than 3, 900 part-time youth positions in rural Manitoba. * (1610 ) Through the establishment of programs like the Grow Bonds Program and the REDI program, rural Manitobans have been supported in their continued efforts to sustain and to promote and to grow their communities. The proposed budget Estimates for 1997-98 will allow for the expansion of programs in the coming year.

Once all the adjustments have been made, and keeping in mind a slight increase in our budget over last year, for 1997-98, Rural Development plans to spend close to a million dollars on program and service enrichment. Through the prudent use of our resources, we have been able to maximize our goal of service first. Rural Manitobans and their prosperity and good governance remain our primary focus for rural Manitoba. Rural Manitobans are committed to strengthening their communities, to turn their ideas and their visions for the future into something tangible.

Rural Development is proud to be a catalyst and a facilitator giving rural Manitobans the tools that they need to continue along the path of economic renewal and revival. For the Local Government Services division, the last fiscal year was an extremely busy one. The completion of legislation for the new municipal act wrapped up three years of consultation and preparation leading to a new structure and a new attitude in local governance.

The new act came into eff ect in January at the end of the last fiscal year, however not without a tremendous amount of work and planning, including the drafting of a procedurals manual that is being distributed to our municipalities and which they will be able to use in the municipal offices to help them implement the new municipal act. In late November and throughout last December staff met with municipal officials throughout the province to review and discuss new processes and new expectations.

The new act not only introduces a new beginning to municipal governance throughout Manitoba, but it also sets Manitoba apart as one of only a few provinces to bring in new municipal legislation. Manitoba's municipal leaders now have the tools to help them meet the challenges of running local government for today and well into the future. Mr. Chairman, it might be said that in Rural Development we have already begun the new millennium. On the economic front, necessity indeed continues to be the mother of invention here in Manitoba and especially in the rural part of the province.

Elimination of grain subsidies, with Manitoba producers having to face substantial increases in transportation costs, has prompted agriculture people to diversify, has prompted rural Manitobans to diversify, and they are doing so with significant success. Rural Manitobans are being encouraged and are now beginning to focus on value-added opportunities. Programs and services of the department support this new thrust by providing rural Manitobans with the impetus to move forward. My honourable colleague, the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson), announced in his March provincial budget increased funding for Manitoba Rural

April 21, 1997 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 89 Development. The budget provides Rural Development with $48 .8 million, $1 9.25 million will go towards Rural Economic Development programs. It also includes $5.5 million in unconditional VL T support to communities and $9.5 million for capital programs. In addition, municipal governments will receive $25.7 million in provincial municipal tax sharing, marking a 3 percent increase over last year. The increases reflect continued faith in the department in working with rural Manitobans to strengthen our rural economy.

Our growth in the rural economy is significant and is strong. The impact of the budget on rural Manitoba is particularly encouraging and will again reinforce initiatives we have undertaken in the past number of years. This budget enhances announcements which will enable Manitoba Rural Development to continue with its plan for economic renewal and revival and in working with partnerships with rural Manitobans to make further strides. Rural Economic Development Initiatives, or REDI, and Grow Bonds programs both remain underpinnings for future economic progress.

Both are helping rural Manitobans to pursue their dreams and their goals. In process, they are enabling communities and businesses to generate economic wealth and employment opportunities. As I have already noted, we are witnessing an economic renewal and revival of our rural Manitoba communities that is unprecedented.

If you ask residents of other jurisdictions in Canada about how they view our rural province, those who have any knowledge of what is going on in rural Manitoba certainly look with some envy I might say and also with some encouragement that they too are going to be able to learn some of the lessons that we have learned in rural Manitoba and can implement them in their jurisdictions. In Rural Development we have worked hard to be a catalyst in helping rural Manitobans to revitalize the rural landscape.

I think that was evidenced by the census figures that came out just recently where in rural Manitoba we have seen an increase in population of some 18 ,000 people. Our REDI and Grow Bonds programs have supported rural Manitobans as they continue to contribute to this upward trend. No question, the credit for the growth in rural economy belongs to rural Manitobans. Programs like REDI and Grow Bonds provide businesses and communities with the added bit of support that they need to make these things happen.

This level of support often makes the difference in whether or not a community project or business initiative goes forward. As we have seen in the past, unfortunately our traditional financial institutions, our banks, have shied away from the small rural businesses, and that is unfortunate. The one plus that I see is that through our Community Works Loan Program credit unions have moved in and have taken a very active role and have actually funded some of the Community Works Loan Programs and have been a major supporter of that program.

It is certainly encouraging to see, because now we see credit unions giving back to their communities some of the things that they have been beneficiaries of as institutions in those communities. Since 1992, our Rural Economic Development Initiative has spent $28.9 million to support innovative projects. REDI funding has leveraged close to $70 million in new capital investment and created more than 1, 700 full-time jobs.

Programs under RED I, such as Rural Entrepreneur Assistance, infrastructure and strategic initiatives lending much-needed assistance to innovative community and business endeavours have been implemented. The increased interest by Manitobans in strategic initiatives means that in the coming year we will allocate greater portions of our resources to this program. The introduction, as I have just noted, of the Community Works Loan Program under the REDI umbrella already has shown strong signs of filling a void in support of small and home-based businesses.

I might say that the Community Works Program, in partnership with our communities, is providing loans to those people who often do not have an ability to put up enough collateral to borrow money from a traditional financial institution. Although these loans are small, about $1 0,000, I can tell you that they are very significant to first-time business entrepreneurs, women especially who are often left out of the business area because they cannot access capital to get their small businesses up and running. It is also significant for the home-based businesses where we see a significant

16 90 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 21, 1997 number of them springing up in the rural part of the province. To date, about 20 communities participating in the program are offering another viable way of funding small businesses that otherwise would not be available in rural Manitoba. The increased resources for the Community Works Loan Program will ensure us that the level of uptake that we had anticipated when we announced the program is going to be fulfilled. The priority of Manitoba Rural Development is to create opportunities for our rural youth as well.

Programs like Junior Achievement, Partners with Youth and the Green Team give our young people job experience, training and information towards the future work options. In Junior Achievement, currently we have 18 5 Junior Achievement programs and 10 company programs that are being delivered in our schools in 90 Manitoba communities. Volunteers contributing more than 5, 000 hours of personal time are certainly important in the delivery of the programs. We have something in the neighbourhood of 12,000 rural students who have participated in this program since 1993 . Our Grow Bonds Program has supported 22 projects.

This has raised about $10 million in community support and is generating an additional $28 million in private capital investment. Our Grow Bonds Program is adding to Manitoba's strong job growth creating upward of 490 jobs. The intent of the Grow Bonds Program is to enable Manitobans to invest in their own home towns rather than having this investment leave the province, perhaps to investments either in eastern Canada or even outside of the country. Guaranteeing the principle offers a safety net for those who invest with confidence in their communities.

Knowing, too, that they are creating an investment climate for financial stability in their communities is important to our rural communities and this small guarantee allows the communities to really take an active

part in building their own community and achieving their own economic goals and objectives. * (1 620) Following the Provincial Auditor's recent report on the Grow Bonds Program, our department has taken the initiative to strengthen the program. One of the actions we have taken, which is reflected in a reallocation of the department of resources, has been to hire a compliance officer. This will ensure that the kind of due diligence that we believe is needed in the approval process is going to be carried out.

Our actions have resulted in the Provincial Auditor noting that, and I quote, management has made considerable progress in addressing our recommendations, unquote. Creating jobs in rural Manitoba for that matter or anywhere else is not an easy task, and it takes a great deal of effort to create those jobs that are being created in the rural part of our province. There needs to be a lot of co operation, as well, from entrepreneurs in the community and from all levels of government. Even then, there are no guaran tees that we will succeed each and every time.

We believe in the strength, the abilities and the ideas of rural Manitobans, and we will continue to utilize our Grow Bonds Program to support their efforts. What are the benefits of all our supports to rural Manitobans? Well, I think there are many. Through new business starts supported by REDI and Grow Bonds, the results of increased employment, in investment, in tax revenue for Manitoba is certainly evident and that is growing on a daily basis.

Recent bonus payments to cities, towns and villages in rural municipalities through our provincial municipal tax sharing revenues, due in a large part to a strong economy for rural Manitoba. shows that there are benefits accruing to our rural communities when in fact businesses are created, when in fact greater taxation is received by the province and the federal government and in this way we are able to share those revenues back with our municipality.

Another reflection of the strengthening of rural Manitoba's economy is the increase in land values throughout most of the province, and we have just completed a round of reassessment in Manitoba. As noted, the increased land values across the province show that there is a strengthening of our economy in the rural part of our province and that is reflected in the values of property throughout our province. Mr. Chairman, I t

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-3-30
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 3rd hansardpdf 30.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f8a3f8425bcf6f0351352ed7d1938f88451b9bce

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