VQ!.,. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR .THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. ~ 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, DECEMBER 2, 1981 • NO. 94

De cember 2, 1931 '!'arye !'Jo. 3947 C:l) - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. !-lr. S:;?eaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! . STAT&~NTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: Recreation and Youth. MR. ANDREWS' The hon. Minister of Culture, Mr . Speaker, on behalf of the r-1inister of De'lelopment (~1r. Windsor) 1 who is not in the Province at the present time; Yesterday, December 1st, Newfoundland Tourism and the Newfoundland Public Service in general lost one of its distinguished sons in the person of ~tt. Douglas Wheeler.

Starting with the Department of Economic Development in 1954, Doug Wheeler very quickly became involved in the promotiqn of Newfoundland as a tourist and vacation area. Often w<;>rking long hours and forgetting that there was such a thing . as an eight hour day 1 Doug used his incredible talent to write and design pamphlets; to train travel consultants, to meet with media guests and to see that they were favourably impressed with Ne~"foundland. Since this was long before there was even such a thing as the Trans-Canada Highway in Newfoundland, Mr. Wheeler success in this position was extraordinary.

As a civil servant he brought a unique quality of dedication and service to his job , earning for himself the title of 'Mr. Tourism' amongst his colleagues and co-workers. He had a tremendous memory for facts · and figures, names and dates about Newfoundland history and tourism that made working with him a pleasure indeed. His talent for drawing and his wonderf~l sense of humour were always evident in his daily work. This talents of Mr.

Wheeler's were always freely given,whether it was for some special work for the department or for remembering in some special way an achievement of those who worked around him. 1 0 u 'j ~

~ec eNb e~ 2, !~:: '!'a?e ~c . 3947 SD - 2 ~ . ANDREWS : C"t side of !Us wo>:k . ~.r . Wheeler also ::our.o :.::.:na to ~ecoone a:1 a.rnateur actor :o:-: c ~e r ein a;.ai::-1 ne displa yed another unique talent . This !louse extends sympath y to his wife Joy ce, hi s daughters Bonnie and Donna, his sons 'l'ony anc Lee, his mother and his sisters a.nd brothers . MR. SFBAKER (Simms): The hon . Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: .~. Speaker , we WOllld like to join .., ... 'lth the government in extending our sympatl.y .

Most of us who knew DOU1 NheE!ler: knew hi.11 as a true Newfoundlander, a person who put eve=ything that he had into it, and eve .n in his latter ye ars,when he knew he had a problem, he stil l continued on as if there was no problem . Be wor ked w~ry hard . 1'1e want to join with the government in expressing our dee pest sympathy to his family . M-~. SPEAKER : You have heaLd ~,e motion. SO!.ffi RON . HE !-1BERS : MR . SPEAKER: MR . SPEAKER: Those in favour, Aye'. 'Aye'. Contrary. Carried . ORAL QUESTroN S The hon. Leader of the Opposition . 1iJL17

December 2, 1981 ·Tape 3948 PK - 1 MR. STIRLING: I have a qu~stion for the acting Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall). When the Finance Minister (Dr. Collins) the 0ther day tried to sl.lp :through the House the special warrants for the negotiating team, the ongoing negotiating team 1 we were surprised on this side to fjnd out thr.tt it required a new commitment not provided in the budget of $350,0JO in consultants fees, $100,000 in travel. Could the minister te:l us whether or not these consultants fees have already been spent? And who the cons•Jlt&nts are? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The bon. President of the Council.

MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I must say I am most surpirsed at the attitude of the Leader of the .Opposition with respect to this topic because it shows a singular lack of understanding of the way government works. But then again he does not need to understand how government works,because he will never operate it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: But, Mr. Speaker, what this amounts to is a sp·ecial warrant of $500 ·, 000 was granted by the Cabinet pursuant to the Financial Administratiqn Act with respect to the ongoing offshore negotiations.

Now we did not at the time -the reason why there had to be a s~ecial warrant obviously is because of the fact tha·t when the .Minister of Finance brought down his comprehensive budget,one that we are very proud of 1and the way in which the budget has been adhered to despite the financial constraints I think is a model that the rest of Canada can follow. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: But even at that time the Minister of Finance did not have the clairvoyance to be able to determine· that offshore negotiatio -ns were going to occur this year. Because offshore negotiations occured,it was 1 u 4 •j p

December 2, 1981 Tq.pe 3948 PK - 2 M..rx • 11..AR s ::.::.. - :. : :-: ecessar1~ t~~e n tc ::-o ~ ;. c~::-7' :·-:::~ first of o.:l.. .. I n otC:.~r :.:o .:::=m a. c·::>mmit tee, i~ . S pe~:.:..ar , _:, ~ :~s also necessary for this comnittee t o have access to infotlliati on , to experts i n the field of taxation, to the e xper t3 in fiel d of oil related mattgrs and what have you . Because we bel ieve, ~tr .

Speaker, that this is necessary in o:::-der to give the committee sufficient backup iriforrnation tnat all N~wfou~dl.anders would like them to have rather t han to find Newf·our,dland in the same position as it waE some years ago with respect to the Upper Churchill contract where there was no committee involved ,it 111as just a case of give it all away. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh !

MR . !.JARSHALL: No\v in answer to the hen. gentleman • s question I can say that the$ 500 , 000 special warrant •,;ill be - - -backed up by a bill for suppl&mentary supflY and when the bill for supplementary supply comes in complete details will be given . In th~ meantime, I can give: him a general ans~o1er that consultants ar e being engaged. It is absolutely necessar_i of ceurse for consultants to be engaged to get the best advice 1 u i. 'j

i) DeceiT~er 2, :981 ':'ape No. 3949 EL - 1 MR . M..li.RS !Lli.LL : we possibly can . I am not in a position right no,,.r to give a co:c .;:;lete breakdm •m because some of th~ mone y has been provided for consultants already engaged, some of it is being provided for the purpose of between now and March engaging other consultants,But I can assure the hon. member that in conformity with the policy of this government that full details will be given when supplementary supply is brought. in. In the meantime, the Minister o~ Finance (Dr.

Collins),when he tabled this warrant,indicated that the general purpose of it was for consultants and travelling. It is, Mr. Speaker, as far as we are concernea, money that has been - which will be well spent and there will be many returns to the Province as a result of these expenditures. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A supplementary, the bon. the Leader of the · Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr.

Speaker' · in keeping with the government's attempt to confuse and mislead,the supp- lementary supply does not have to be brought in until some- time maybe in March or April 1and the minister has already gone on record as saying that he expects these negotiations to be completed by the end of 'February. A supplementary question to the acting Minister of Energy (Mr.

Marshall): Could the Minister of Energy tell us whether or not one of the consultants that was retained and reported to this House as the ,leading consultant in the field and one that the government could be very proud of was a company whose principal was Mr. Pedro Van Murs ~ it may be called Pedro Van Murs Associates or some other name - could the minister j ::4? n

Dece~ber 2, 1931 Tape NO. 3949 ":L - 2 MR. STIRLING: tell us whether or not Pedro Van M~rs and Associates are still retai~ed as consultants to th~ government? MR .. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the President of the Council. M.R. ~.ARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is talking about that I said the negotiations would end at the end of February. I said no such thing. I do not make any comments on the offsh0re negotiations.

I could point out to the hon. gentleman that his mentor, the person that he is continually making apologies for and supporting, i.e., the people in the fed­ eral government were the pe~ple who made that statement. We said no such things. We said that the negotiations will go on so far and for so long as it is necessary to secure the interest of the people of Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: • Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: As to the consultan"t:s ' ' feesf as to where they are spent, Mr. SpeaKer, I can say that with res­ pect to Mr.

Pedro Van Murs, I do not believe that any of this money is earmarked for any consulting that Mr. Van Murs is going to give with respect to this. But I would not necessarily like to be held completely to that statement because I would like to emphasize that if in the course of the ongoing investigations and research that is now being performed by this negotiating cornrnittee,which is meeting this afternoon ~nd will meet tomorrow and the day after, they determine that there is more information required for the necessity of putting their position to best protect the people of Newfoundland and that Mr.

Van Murs is the person whom they feel is the one 10LL?1

Decerr,b(;!;:.- 2, 1931 Ta ,:->c No. 3950 MR. !-1ARSHALL: who can best give this information 1 certainly monies will be e~pendec for t~e purpose of Mr. Van Murs to recQmpense him for his services. In the meantime, Mr.

Speaker, I can assure the hon. gentleman there .lo.i.'- - opposite that when the Minister of Finance gave the details, as we do in this House, that there is a special warrant of $SOO,OQO, he broke it down generally for the present time between consultants fees and travelling, and we would be more than happy to give in due ccurse, when the money is expended, when supplementary supply is granted, a complete breakdown of it. And I am sure that it would be to the full satisfaction of the House. SOME H'JN. ME11BERS : MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRJ,ING: Hear, hear!

A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . A supplementary, the hon. Since the minister either does not know, or is refusing t'o admit, that the contract with Mr. Van Murs has been terminated, would the minister tell this House whetner or not ~e knows whether or not it has been terminated, and by whom was the contract terminated, by the gover~~ent, or by Mr. Van Murs? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: That is another question, Mr. Speaker. At the present time Mr. Van Murs is not giving any ongoing consulting services to this government. As to, -- -. . -- Mr.

Speaker, the situation of why he is not giving it is at the present time the government has availed of his advice in the past and has valued his advice but at the present time we do not think it is necessary for it to be given on an ongoing basis. If in the future it is necessary to get it on some specific 10~/')

\' li( .:.:;:-: ::-..:.:.:::: ~, :!.~S~ '!a::?e "To. 395') :'" - ? MR. MARSHALL: topic, I am s:..:..i.:"e the co v::r::...J.l2n c will consider it at that

part icular time. HR. STIRLI~-!G: Mr. Speaker, 2. S ~1 !Jplernentary. MR. SPEAKER' (Simms) A supplementary, t!'le hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that Mr. Van Murs has terminated his contract and he was .ll.N liON. l·lEI,IBER: Oh, you know all the answers . MR. TULK: You never ask a question unless you know the-answer, stupid. MR. STIRLING: - brought into this Province as the leading expert, Does the minister feel that the circumstances surrounding Mr.

Van Murs' termination of the contract with the government, and the reasons for the· termination, will'have a serious impact on the government's reputation generally in attracting other consultants in this field? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Absolutely not, Mr. Speaker, any more than the government's performance is affected by the type of questions asked by the han. Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS ; Hear, hear! ' MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplaaentary, the han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. HODDER: What arrogance! How you got to dig it out. MR.

FLIGHT: Talk about cover up there. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I must admit that everybody in the Province knew they were doing nothing about the economy generally, but everyone assumed that they were preparing the case. We now have a special warrant for $500,000 of a panic for consultants, and the leading' consultant in this field, recognized world-wide, has terminated his contract with the 1 n LL 1 'J.

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~ecs~.b2::: 2 ,2.;~: Tape No. 3951 2h-:-"l t-'JR . MARSH£-.LL: The hon. gen::.le.man is m<> kiH'::i statements that contain certain inferences and certain conclusions. The fact of the matter is that-· SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MARSHJI..LL: Mr. Speaker, if the hen. gentlemen want answers I will give them 1 but I do not, Mr.Speaker.I do not think the electors of St. John's East elected me to try to out shou.t the voices of ignorami. SOME IION .MEMBERS: MR. STIR.LI Nt,: MR. SPEAKER .(Simmsl: of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Hear, heay·! Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary. The hon. Leader Mr.

Speaker, I realize that the minister, the acting minister, part-time lawyer ,retreating to being the member for St. John's East (Mr.Marshall) does not want to face the facts and does not want to let the people know. Now would the minister please ansvre+- the question? W·ill he table for this House of Assembly the letter of te .rmination which indicates why Mr. Van Murs terminated his contract with this government? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. HR.

SI!-1MS: If the hon. gentleman is going to embellish his questions,I will embellish slightly my answers,with your concurrence 1 to say that to be a part­ time energy minister, part-time government house leader, par·t-time lawyer has considerably more security than being an interim and temporary Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON .MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: Hear, hear! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, I cannot say anything more. I do not think there is any nuroose in saying anything more with respect to Mr. ·van Murs except to say that he had given some advice to this government which had 1 U ~It:;

December 2,1981 Tape No. 3951 an-.2 MR. MARSHALL: been valued and had been valuable ad vice. He is nm.,r not giving adv:i.ce on an ongoing basis. In the even~ that his advice is needed on some specific :natter, Mr. Speaker, we will seek his ?.dvice. I have no intention, Mr. Speaker, and I do not th.i:!'.k-we are talking about ongoing negotiations and what have you -but I have no intention of tabling any correspondence emanating from any consultants touching on the offshore matter at this time. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. ~ember for Terra Nova yields for a supplementary to the hen. member for Windsor- Buchans.

MR. FLIGHT: I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. acting Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall) will indicate whether or not the termination of the contract we are discussing is any way relative to the exit, the leaving of the previous Minister of Mines and Energy, Mr. Barry? MR. SPEAKER: The han. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: I have absolutely no idea whatsoever, I do not expect it did. The previous minister left for reasons that the previous minister gave and which were given to the p~ople of the Provjnce. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) relating to the allocation of $20.3 million for the new reorganized high school programme over the next three years. 1 ~!Li?_~;

~i December 2, 1981 Tape 3952 EC - l iv1R. L:iSii: Hon. rnenti.Jers -.. ;i2-l ~ecall 1 and I nope the hon. the minister will reca~l,that when questioning her recently on the inadequacy of that amount - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! lffi. SPEAI<ER (Simms): Order, please! MR. LUSH: - the minister aid indicate tha.t it certainly was an adequate amount to bring in the reorganized high school programme. My question, Mr.

Speaker, is this: In the interim or since the figure was announced in the budget, I wonder if the minister can indicate to the House whether or "not there have been any st~~es or any surveys or any representation frow school boards which indicate that this amount of $20.3 million is inadequate, woefully inadequate to meet the requirements necessary to implement the reorganized high school . progr~~e ·consistent with, Mr. Speaker, the ~iiversally accepted philosophy of providing equal educational opportunity for all of the students in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS VERGE: Mr.' Speaker, the $20.3 million government funding for high school related construction announced last Spring for the next three years is designed on the advice of experts who looke1 at all the high school facililities in the Province as being needed to introduce the reorganized high school programme; 40 per cent of that $20.3 million is designed for extra classroom space to accommodate the Grade XII students coming onstream in 1983 - 1984, and the balance, the other 60 per cent is designed for what are called programme support rooms, multipurpose rooms, libraries, labs, shops, 1lH.? 7 ..

:.'A December 2, 1981 Tape 3952 EC - 2 .·~3 v~RGE : art and music, industria l arts rooms and, of course, tho s e programme support i acilities ,.,.ill benefit not only tl1e Gra cie XII studen ts but also students in the low er grades in the same schools, who will be able to take advantage of expa1·1ded course offerings . Some confusion has come into ~he picture when some school boards ~~d others are saying the $20 . 3 million is not enough to cover all our needs . Now, Mr. Speaker, the .$20. 3 million \oTas never designed to cover all school construction needs i n the Province, it was designed 11'11. ?P

Decembe~ 2, 1981 Taoe No. 3953 EL - l MS. VERGE: to be specifically for needs bFcause of the introduction of Grade XII and it is over and above what would have been provided for ongoing construction requiremen~s. SOME HON. MF~ffiERS: MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. m~~ilier Mr.

Speaker, the question to the minister is since the announcement cf that figure, are there any surveys, any studies, anything of any kind to indicate that mavbe the government underestimated the amount of money allocated to bring in this new re-organized high school pro­ gramme? MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: The bon. the Minister of Education. Mr.

Speaker, since the $20.3 million fer high school construction.was announced last Spring there have been a series of meetings between officiqls . of the Department of Education, the Denominational Education Committees and representati ·.res of different school boards, These meetings have actually confirmed the original accuracy of the $20.3 million estimate for high school related con­ struction.

Again I repeat, that $20.3 million is not to be confused with extra money, the $10. 8 million provided in the present fiscal year, extra money that is going to be provided in the new fiscal year for ongoing construction requirements. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. member for ·rerra Nova. MR. LUSH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. These figures mentioned by the minister are all taking a part of the package that school boards are quite aware of and they 1:JL!?n

:~~ D~cember 1, 1981 Tape No . 3953 EL - 2 MR. LUSH : know what the monies allo cated ;.:e:-e 1 so t.'lis is nothi:tg extra . But. ~~r . Speak er, I •.vant now ~o ask the ministe~ a question re the operatio~al grants to school boards . In vie• ,7 of the report by the Fede ration of School Soares that was · ~ade public t~is ~orning, Mr . Speaker, inciicating that sc hool boards are e:<peri enci ng severe financial problem s, in view of that report, Mr .

Speaker, I v1onder if the minister can indica te to the House what action s she plans to take over the :text fe'" months to help school boards to avert and to avoid bankruptcy? M!L SPE.'lJ<ER (SiiT'_rns ) : MS . VEP.GE : The hon. the ~linister of Education. Mr. Speaker, tne report to which the member for Terra Nova U·1r.

LUsh) refers, presented by the Federation of School Boards ,addresses ma inly operating grants provided by government r.o scho ol boards. •rc put education financing in perspective , I think I should point out that by far the big gest part of the cost of educatio:t ,in fact over seventy per cent is for teachers' salaries which have been and always will be paid by the Provincial Government with respect to all 1 t: 4 ~ n

... y I December 2, 1981 Tape No. 3954 SD - 1 HS. VERGE: teachers for all school boards in -- -- -- the Province. And the amount which government ~s paying for ·i:eachers' S:ilaries has grown astronomically 1-1i th more and more teachers being employed who are better qualified with higher rates of pay. So when we look at the operating . grants which are the major subject of the Federation of School Boards report, we are talking about the money which was used to pay heat and light bills, bus transportation costs and non- professional salaries.

These operating grants are paid by government to the different school boa=ds. Some school boards are quite well off with respect to their operating costs, Mr. Speaker, others are having difficu.lty. Government has taken action in the past to correct inbalances by giving more money to boards with above average heat and light and bus transportation costswith extra. declining enrolment and for boards operating schools in Labrador. The report has val.uable, wide­ sweeping recommendations which will be carefully studied when we are preparing the budget for next year. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR.

LUSH: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Final supplementary, the hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker; I did not ask the minister to explain to me what operational grants are, I am quite familiar with what they are. But, Hr. Speaker, the question was in view of the tremendous financial squeeze, the financial bind which school boards find themselves in,and in view of the recommendations that the Federation of School Boards made to the government today, is the minister planning any a.ction to assist school boards, to help them ;_n this financial crisis during this school year, Mr.

Speaker, when it would appear that many school boards are on the verge of bankruptcy? That is -the question, Mr. Speaker. 1flLL .~·l

~==~~e= 2, 1921 '!'ape No. 3~54 ~I) - 2 M-~ . SPEAKER ( S i ..,'lls) : The hon . Mini ster of Educat~on . ~lS. VERGE : '1~·. Speaker, gcve=nme :lt pre'. ·iously this year and in earlier years has made a tremendous ef!ort to finance educatjon and to co-operate \vith school boards . The ne•.• report o! t:!"!e Federation o: Sc!"!ool Bca1:c~ contains many recommendations :or fundamental,basic change in our system of providing operating and capital grants . The recommendations 1 n 1 •. 1.., r

December 2, 1981 Tape 3~35 PK - l ~S. VERGE: will b9 carefully considered , and will ~e acted upon where feasible in maki~g t~e budget for the next year. However,it is premature for me to comment specifically on any of the particular ' recommendations in the report. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall). Would the minister care to tell consumers of electricity in c this Prbvince where they stand now in connection with increases in electricity ratest There is one now just approved by the Public Utilities Board.

I presume that one has been approved by the Cabinet. What can consumers of electricity look forward to now ia the next few months or next year or so? MR. SPEAKER: ------ The hen. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker,'! believe that is a matter really of public knowledge because the Public Utilities Board has already given down its ruling. Suffice it to say that the -·-·- Newfoundland Light and Power asked for an increase of approximately 9.7 per cent, and in effect.what they received was an increase of 7.2 per cent.

This of course is because of the Public Utilities Board, beca~se the Public Utilities Board has been charged with by this government,particularly in these times,to scrutinize as closely as it possibly can the applications made for rate increases. AN HON. MEMBER: (inaudible). (Inaudible) rubber stamp MR. MARSHALL: No, by no means was it a rubber stamp, Mr. Speaker.

The fact of the matter is there are,as everyone knows, everyone is affected by increased cost as a result of oil, increased costs as a result of interest and what have you, The Public Utilities Board did an indepth scrutiny of it and as a result of which it has made its finding. We are rather proud on this side of the House,Mr. Speaker, that we have given the ~ublic Utilities Board the latitude to function as it has, We Hl i-1 ::1 ct

Decembl'or 2, 1981 Tape 3955 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: have not only extended ti1el.::: j 1-ll:"i.sC:...i.. , ....... i.v.J. with respect to Newfoundland Light and Power but to Newfoundland Hydro zs well. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEA~ER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. member for' LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, everyone in the Province knows that the Public Utilities Board merely rubber stamp applications from the government when they want increases, when Newfoundland Hydro ask for increases.

I would like to ask the hon. gentleman if the government would consider placing a freeze for one year on any further increases in electricity in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Cc~ncil. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, first of all everyone may know,but everyone does not know; everyone recognizes the validity and the effect that the Public Utilities Board has in these matters and it has shown it as a result of its recent. deliberations.

With respect to the question,apart from the comment made by the han. membcr,this government would love to put a freeze on electrical charges, we would just love to.aut unfortunately neither the Province nor the.people are unaffected by the economic factors that effect the price of electricity as effect everyting else.

I can say to the hon. member that in the event that we get our just rights with respect to the offshore oil, in the event that we reclaim the power which the hon. gentlemen so freely gave away,then we will be able to address in a much more meaningful way than we can right now as we would dearly wish to,the problems associated with these price increases. MR. NEARY : It is a funny thing - 1nl!;i I· .

December 2, 1981 Tape 3956 EC - 1 !'R .. SPEAKER (Sii.::::.3); A fin~l .=:up~·le=- ~entary, ~~-:..2 hon. the member for La~oile. MR. NEARY: . It is a funny thing, Mr. Speaker, you cannot get anybody on the other side to admit that we had eight years of Tory administration under Mr. Moores, but they accuse the Leader of the Opposition and people on this side for giving something away when they \rere not e''Ten. in the House. But the bon. gentleman's party voted for that. Now, I-tt.

Speaker, I want to ask the bon. gentleman - because this matter of e·lectricity is crucifying people in this Province, gas prices increase and electricity prices, and the han. gentleman got up just now and started to play little political games when I asked him about putting a freeze on. Is the han. gentleman aware that Mr. Young, the Chairman o_£ Newfoundland Hydro, said a week or ten days ago that Newfoundland Hydro was considering placing a freeze on increases in electricity rates in this Province for an indefinite period? AN HON. MEMBEF: A yenr. MR.

NEARY: I do not think he mentioned a year, he said for an indefinite period. And would the bon. gentleman, when he is answering the question - because I do not have much more time to ask a supplementary - would the bon. gentleman tell the House if the government ~s taking any action, taking any steps in order to keep electricity rates in this Province down for consumers who cannot cope with the high electricity rates? Is the government taking any measures or any steps to take over the distribution of electricity in this Province? After all, Mr.

Speaker, han. members know the government owns every kilowatt, the people own every kilowatt of electricity that is I u .i ~. 1 rJ ' - •

Dece~~er 2, 1981 Tape 3956 EC - 2 l-1~. NEARY: ;.o.i"l2l:ated in this Province. We provinclalized it a few years ago, back ln the 1960s. SOME HON. :1ENBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. NEARY: any steps to take over - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh! Order, please! Ord9r, please! Now, is the government taking Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! I'believe the hon. member has put two -questions. Now, the hon. the minister might want to reply and I know there are other members here who wish to ask questions and there are only three minutes remaining in Question Period. So would the hon. member put his question.

MR. NEARY: My question is to ask the han. gentleman if the government is taking any action or is • considering provincializing the distribution of electricity in this P~ovince? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ·the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr.

Speaker, the han. gentleman who has all the answers all the time to every question,no matter what the question may be, has mooted this from time to time, but the fact of the matter is, as he should know, when he makes this proposal that between $200 million and $300 million capital are in Newfoundlru1d Light and Power at the present time. Now, the government 1[lLL~t:: •

"o'7'=!"De:C 2, 1981 Ta9e l~o . ... ,..- .... ...):;J:::>J NH - l MR. Ml\.RS:BLL: just cannot take a private source without giving compensation for it. So if t=-.e gover~~ent gives com9ensation for it,what it would have to do, Mj~. Speaker, is repay the amount owed by the cqmmon shareholders. So you get $200 million or $300 million on which today you are paying 15, 16, 18 or 19 per cent interest. So, you know, if that is his solution of the problem it is the same old solution of one step forward and two steps backward. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for Eagle River. MR.

HISCOCK: My question is for the l<iinister of Fisheries. Does th:: 'Minister of Fisheries, can he inform this House as to what the Lake group is going to be doing with their plant in Gaultois, and seeing there is a delegation here in the ~aller y , could the minister provide this House with some information? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: ~x. Speaker, I am indeed pleased this afternoon to meet with the delegation from Gaultois. The Premier and myself will meet with them shortly after Question Period.

I just came back from meeting with a committee in Ferrneuse on the same question and we met yesterday at some length with a delegation from'Grand Bank on the same question. And we will continue to meet further and further with other groups and delegations in pursuit of every possible means of resolving the problems in the fishery, including the Lake group of companies. MR. : HISCOCK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR, SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Eagle River . MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, with regard to Gaultois being on an island, and also Gaultois itself being an isolated community, Mr.

Speaker, the question that I wanted to ask - l' lL .-. 7 1 n, -. ..

Dece:T'bec- " 1 Q "ll SOME HON. ME!-IBERS: i>IR. HISCOCK: do~m there - MR. SPEA...l<ER ( S i:mms) : MR. HISCOCK: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR . SPEAKER: MR. HISCOCK: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. RISCOCK: soon be oiTer. SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: 'T'"'":e ~r,.,. 3957 l'7M - 2 Oh, oh~ I spent rr.any Chri.Sl:r:\ases Order, please~ - as well as other visits. Oh, oh~ Order, please~ To the point Oh, oh~ Order, please! Order, please! - and the Question Period will Oh, oh! Order, please! MR. RISCOCK : The question that I wanted to ask, where extra money needs to be going in, is this Province , SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. HISCOCK: - prepared to spend ·extra money in modernizing a plant in the location where Gaultois is located? MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, as a result of representations which have been made in the last number of weeks by the member for the area, Mr. Stewart, my colleague - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

MORGAN: with representations to the Premier and my colleagues in the government that we will leave no stone unturned and we will do everything we possibly can to help the fishery in Gaultois, or in Grand Bank or Ferrneuse, or elsewhere in the Province. SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAXER: for Eagle River. Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Twenty seconds, the hon. member 1rJ4?.n

Decemoe r ~ , l~ o~ ~(;0.-t'c; ... v. .. .. .; 1-!R . iliSCOCi< : Is the Mini ster of :1- ;o: ~~ ::: i -e~ assuring then residents of Gaulcc~s that the plant will be · reopene d? l'lR . SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. 1-iin ister of Fis:Je:::ies has ten seconds. NR. MORGAN: l>lr . Speaker' · it is amazing these days hm ·1 Q'.le sti oh Period t·ev olve s e:u:ou.nd th e visitors to our gallery, because there has been no question by th e Opp os ition in the last four we ek s on Gaultois , not one qu estion on the return of Gaultois, not one questio n. S0 !1E HON. MEMBERS : Hear , hear ~ MR . POWER: Not one . Not one .

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please ! Order , please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAimR: Order, please! SOME HON • MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, pl ease! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! · M_~ . SPEAKER: Order, please! The members rnust'be having dif £ic ulty . Order, ple ase! ~ I want ~o advise hon . members that the time for oral questions has expired. At the same time 1 i! l. in r

December '2,1981 Tape No. 3958 ah-1 !·E< .• 8"Prll.KF.~. (Sirrmsl: I want to make a 'Tery tir.1el y notice o~ ~slcome tc ~ ~2legation who ~re visiting us to~ay and seated in the galleries from the community of Gaultois led by Hayo.c 1\ayne l\:.:nrlall. \'ie v;elc::m:e the::-, here today. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPE CIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the eight annual report of the NevJfoundland Liquor Licensing Board MR. S ?EAKER; Any further reports? The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, under the provisions of

Section 37 of the Medicare Commission Act 1 I wish to table the annual report of the Newfoundland Medical Care Commission for the year ending March 31,1981. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port Au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of forty-three residents of St. John's .and surrounding areas. In presenting the petition I would first like to read the letter to the House which was addressed to me. "We the undersigned pr:1y that you present the following petition on our behalf to the hen.

House of Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador and we pray that vou present it verbatim as written." And it is signed by Jill 'stoodley, National Action Committee on the Status of Women, the representative of Newfoundland. The petition, Mr.Speaker: 11 Tb the hon. House of Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador. The petition of the undersigned residents of Canada who will now avail themselves of.their ancient and undoubted rights thus to present a 1 U hI· n

Dacernber 2,1981 Tape No. 3958 ah-2 MR. HODDER: grie'lance corrunon to your petitioners in the certain assurance that your hon. ~ouse will t~~ref~re pro'lide a remedy. Humbly shmveth that on \iednesday, ::c- ,-e;nber 18,1981 the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) gave notice of mot.ion of a constitutio.1.al resolution of which

part 1 of

Schedule B is the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

That clause, 33(1) to 33(5) ,of the said resolution provides that where there is aP- expressed declaration by parliament or the legislature of a province . certain rights and freedoms guaranteed by the said charter can be over-.ridden, that the specific rights and frGedoms that may be ove~-ridden include; freedom of conscience and religion, freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression including freedom of the press and other media of communication, freedom of peaceful assembly, freedo~ of association, the right to life, liberty and se~::'urity of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice, the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure, the right not to be arbitrarily detained or imprisoned, the right on arrest or detention to be informe? promptly of the reasons therefore, to retain and instruct counsel without delay and to be informed of that right,and to have the validity of the detention ·determined by way of habeas corpus and to be released if the detention is not lawful.

The right of any person charged with an offence to be informed without unreasonable delay of the the specific offence, to be tried within a reasonable time, not to be compelled to be a witness in proceedings against that person in respect of the offence, to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to the law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, 1 f"! ldL 1

Oece~;·,iJer 2,19 81 ~ape ~~o. 3953 :..::--_- ~ MR. HODDER: not to be denied reasonable bail wi thau ·t cause e;cce::--': ~ :-: the case o-F "-""· offence under military law tried before a milita~y tribunal ~o the benefit of trial by jury with a maximum punishement for the offence iS jmnrisonment for five year5 or a more severe punislli~ent. 1 1') ' ; "') t' u u lllr(;

,. December 2, 1981 Tape No. 395C! L:"T - 1 MR.HODDER: "Not to be found guilty on account o~ any ~ct or omission unless at ~he time of tne act or omiss­ ion it' constitutes an offense under Canadian or Interr.ational law or was criminal according to the ger.eral principles of law recognized byfue Community of Nations.

If finally acquited of the offense, not to be tried for it again,and if finally found guilty and punished for the offense not to be tried and punished for it again,and if found guilty of the offense and if ·the punishment for the offenne has been varied between the time of C<Jmmission and the time of sentenc_ing to the bene­ fit of the lesser punishment.

The right not to be subject to any cruel or unusual treatment or punishment, the right to a witness who testified in any proceedings not to have any discriminating evidence so given used to incriminate the wit­ ness in any other proceedings except in a prosecution for perjury or for the giving of contradictory evidence.

The right to the assistance of an interpreter for a party or a witness in any proceeding who does not understand or speak the language in which the proceedings· are conducted or who is deaf; the right of every individual to be equal before . and under the law and to the eqt:al protection and equal bene- fit of a law without discrimination and in particular without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability and affirm­ ative action programmes to attain equality." Now, Mr. Speaker, I realize I only have a half a minute left.

It will take me just a few seconds to finish this petition. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Does the han. member wish , to re- quest leave then rather than be interrupted later on? 1 !"l 4 /, ':1

~ • Decerr>ber 2, 1981 Tape NO. 3959 EL - 2 MR. HODDER: Well, I think I may make it, Mr . Speaker, out I may need leave. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. HOiJDE R: MR. SPEAKER : SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HODDER: You have ten seconds. Okay. By le~ve, if I cou~d finish. Is there leave? By leave. There is leave. Agreed. "That such an override of these rights and freedoms cannot be justified in a democratic society, wherefore your practitioners humbly pray that the said resolution be amended by deleting clause 33 (1) to 33 (5) and that no other provision which would have similar effect be substituted.

And your petitioners as in duty bound will ever pray:' Now, this Mr. Speaker, this pet­ ition was presented by forty-one - it has also been signed, I have signed it myself and the Leader of the Opposition forty-three members of the -members and suppcrters, I would say 1 of the National Action Committee on the Status of Women and I therefore present the petition and ask that it be presented to the department to which it relates. MR. OTTENHEIMER: To the petition, Mr.Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the petiticn, the hon. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Very briefly, Mr.

Speaker, as hon. members are aware of course the constitution provisions are being voted on in the House of Commons today and the pro­ visions that are there are ones which have resulted from the agreement of the premiers of nine provinces and the Prime Minister. ~~at hon. members should of course recall and should be aware of- no doubt we are aware of but we do not .always fully realize it-is that when this series 1 r-u,. Lll

1 Dect;. .. :....,c 2, ::.981 7.:.-;a ~o . 39~~ E!. - 3 ~. OTTENHEH 1ER: of constitutional initiati'les, \-l~en it "is cor.lp!.Et ecl. ·.~hta.• t.~e ccnstituticn 1s ?a";::-iatee ar.C. pat::-iate~ in ter~s oE che agreeme~~ reac~ed by the federal _g overnm~t and nin e of the provincP.s , that is not the end of the constitutional develo pment, of constitutional evolu~ic~ , of cons-citutional change in Cam·,da . What is to be realized is that ~~en changes c~~ be mace in Canada .

It is no longer ~ecessary, the United Kingdom has absolutely then no auth ­ ority , r~sidual or otherwise 1 so Ct!rtainly there will continue to be cho.nges in the constit•Jtio'l in the years ahead. So what is not in it now,or what is not in it to the satisfaction of this group or that group now,does not mean ch at there will not be change because I would think that there will be much more constit utional change in the next few years than there has been in the last decade s,beca use in the last d~cades in order to change the constitution you would have had to go through the United Kin gdom ~arliament as 1o1ell.

So that , of course, is one of the great benefits in patriation,that 1 f' ld. l~

;;, -..,­/ De-:::e mb er 2, 1981 Tape No. 3960 SD - 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: any changes which come can be effected ir. Canada without refe~encc to th2 United Kindgom or tc anybody else.

But my understanding is thaL the resblutions are being presented and are being voted on in the Hou5e of Commons today,and certainly if there are to be changes,as the Premier poir.ted out in a telegram to the Prime Hinister and I think copies to the other Premiers and which I think the people of Ne~rfoundla:1d are aware of, you know, one cannot really n.ake changes of such _important and serious and complex matters- I know they are important but they are extremely complex too - by conference telephone calls and telexes going back and forth; it has to be the result of consciouG and deliberate work and studies-While I would say, you know, it is not really practical to make the changes nowr that certainly does not mean that when the Constitution .is patriated that further.changes will not be made.

HR. STIRLING: To the petition, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : To the petition, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRT~ING: I signed the petition presented by my colleague 1 the House Leader (Mr. Hodder), who has been appointed at the request of some of the people involved to co-ordinate the activities dealing with rights generally. Mr. Speaker, what this clearly is is a request on behalf of people to have the~r rights put back ~n the Constitution.

When we dealt with the Constitution in this HousE , the government resolution that Wi3.S presented did not give any hint that they would take away the rights granted under the Charter. As a matter of fact, they said they would not approve the Constitution until we had offshore guarantees, Labrador guarantees, fishery guarantees , but,- Mr. Speaker, instead of getting those things,which they abandoned, they abandoned all of those rights, we had a Charter which was mangled and the mangling took out these rights, these fundamental rights 1 i! id.l ~

Dec~~ber 2, 1991 Tape ~o. 3960 SD - 2 !-!P... STIRLDTG! which these oeo9le have presented and \Vhich ny co:.league has presented i:.-1 a. 9eti ti on, ::;~;- ~.a king certain rights thai can be overridd en b y any provinc~ in Ca~ada. Essentiall y , Mr. Speaker, these rjghts should be beyond the cha~ge of any provincial go vernment. The women put: on a great lobby across Canada and they restored one of the clauses under

Section 28. And the native group put on a great lobby and reinstated partially some of their rights, but the gove:cnment side >·muld not sup~ort them f•.1lly. Mr. Speaker, we are having a Constitution brought back to Canada and we will encourage these people to continue their fight because, Mr. Speaker, these rights do not only apply to >-romen; the concerns that . these women have expressed are the concerns of all of us. They are the fund.arnent "al rights that we all should have under our Charter.

And yes, we will have those some da y and we will all unite together because there will not be always in this Province a government that takes away people's rights and a government that will not give people the opportunity to be equal Canadians all across this great Dominion. This Province wants to keep unto itself the right to say what a Canadian is in this Province. And we on this side of the House support the idea that once you are a Canadian you are equal to every other Canadian everywhere in Canada and that was what was originally in the Constitution, Mr.

Speaker, and that is what we support and that is why we ask the government now to take this petition and make their views knows and do another about-face,as they have done so many about-faces in so many areas this year, Mr. Speaker. M..R. SPEAKER (S 'imms): Any further petitions? MR. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker. 1 i'! I • 7 ,, u !J.

December 2, 1981 Tape 3961 EC - 1 HR. SPEAKER ( S irr.:ns ) : The hon. t:1e me111ber for St. Barbe. Y ...... ".. BENNETT: Mr. Speaker, "To the hon. tha House of Ass ·:ml?ly in Parliamen7. assembled, a petition cf the undersigned 250 residents of Daniel's Harbour hereb7 sheweth that we, tne residents and students of Daniel's Harbour, feel restricted when it comes to tP.levision viewing with only CBC available to i.lS. ''We understand that this is the only region in Newfoundland, the Northern Peninsula, that does not receive a second channel.

We also feel that qeographical location should.not be a cause for disc1 :imination. Therefore, we want ..11-.se.cond channel available to us, preferably NTV." Mr. Speaker, in support of this petition; I would like to point out to the hon. House of Assembly that good television viewing and programming is an accepted way of life in most parts of Canada and indeed most parts of Newfoundlan& but we still do not get very good television at all on the Northern Peninsula. We get, in my opinion, sub­ standard CBC programming,and we certainly do not have a second chann.el available to us.

Now, we are presently having ghost stations brought onstream, but these are costly and people can i1.1-afford to pay extra money for what is readily available free of cost to most parts of the rest of Canada. cable television is not readily available to rural Newfoundland. It might be available, Mr. Speaker, to urban Newfoundland where you have the more massive population that you can sell your cable irJI.tLd~

Decerr~er 2, 1981 Tape 39o5:L .::c - 2 MH.. BENNETT: service to, but in =ural Newfoundland it rvould get to be too costly. I understand, l'1r.

Speaker., ',v>'.: :i:ave satelli t2 facilities al:.:eady in pl<::.ce that .::an be tapped into, and I wm1ld hope that the minister res?onsible on a provincial level, with persuasive powers, would, in his wisdom, most certainly communicate in the not-too-distant futu=e and use those persuasive powers with CRTC and with indeed appropriate NTV officials, and hopefully we can have better television viewing in all parts of Newfoundland, especially in the area where this petition requests better televisiGn be pro,;;ided. ~. Mr.

Speaker, I certainly wholeh~artedly support this petition and'Your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever p:!:'ay.' I wish to place this petition on the table of the han. House of l',ssembly ·and · have it directed to the department to which it relates. MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : To the petition, the hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. ANDREWS : Mr. Speaker, I most certainly sympathize with the hon. the member for St. Barbe. Thi ·s is a continuing matter in my o"m district of Burgee - Bay d'Espoir.

I personally have.cornmunicated several times with the people responsible and the owners of NTV. J'l.s a matter of fact, I have written and communicated with CRTC to the effect that I do not think that that network of television stations should have and own and operate a television licence in Newfoundland claiming what they de do in this Province and where they broadcast. I do know on the Great Northern Peninsula, the South Coast of Newfoundland anc much of 1[1440 ...

r.·~ D2C2~0~L 2, i93l ............ .c:~~ MR. ANDREWS: the Northeast Coast of the Province that television r2ception is not available thrcugh ~hat network of st~tioLs. 1 :: i, c; n

~ December 2, 1~81 Tape 3962 PK - 1 ~~i.i< • r...i:.,_.: .,:u ... "~; I suppcrt that petitic;! as I have supported petitions from tile Soutn Coast ar·2"- ln ge;1eral; from the Hermitage area, Har!-'cur Breton area, Port­ aux-Basques, Burgee 1 ~.a,aea, Bay d 'Espoir, and indeed many ?arts o c Ne\<Tfoundland. · I "'0uld su::pec.:t probably three­ c,:uarte.cs of the coastline of Ne'vlfoundland, the outlying coa.stl.ine 1 does not receive. that television network at all. I ;;onder why the fede:::-al governi!lent n.gency C~TC continues ':o licence that broadcaster. The bon. member for St. Ear:·.e (Mr.

Bennett) mada reference to the Minister of Transp0rtation and Communication (Mr. Dawe), the provincial ministe+; unfortunately beca:1se of the BNA Act . we have absolutely no control over communications in this Province other than to write letters,which we all do and I am sure the member for st.

B~rbe does, and to raise a stink. ~here is possibly, and I would live in dreaded fear if I was the operator and owner of NTV and indeed the CBC with the technology that is becaning available now ln television reception and rebroajcasting both by cable and broadcasting; in a very few years both CBC and NTV in this Pro~ince will be annihilate? by the number of stations that are going to be available to the viewers of Newfoundland, and unless they get on the ball and do their job nobody is going to be watching them because they are not contributing what their li=ence tells them that they should do in this Province.

I support that petition, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER (SiiT'l!1s}: ~~y further petitions? 1f14'1'1

0 Dece::-J:;~r ~ ::~C?l 'r-?:::''2 3!?6~ n ... }l" -· "'") ORDERS OF THE DAY ~!R. SPEA:::ER (Sirrcrr . .:;) : This being Wednesday, ?rivcite Members' Day,I call Motion No. 3. The debate last day was adjourned by the hon. the Premier who had spoken for about ni~e minutes. SOME HON. MEMBERS: l'RE~IER PECKFORD: l:ow man~· roinutes left? MR . SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: is not too good today. The hon. the Premier. Eear, hear! So, Mr. Speaker:, I take it I have, Eleven. Eleven minutes left. l-!y subtraction Mr.

Speaker, we are dealing with a resolution here today that was moved by the member for Harbour Main-Bell Island (Mr. Doyle). .~,d last day we were beginning in the debate across the House, from one side to the other,to get into the substance of the matter as it related not only to this resolution but what this resolution focuses in on, and it focuses very directly upon the resource development philosophy of the political parti~s . in Newfoundland, and I think the last number of speakers on last day were approaching it from that point of view.

And I was beginning to say last day, when I heard some of the hon. members oppos~te who so loudly tried to proclaim a certain philosophy and tried to attack this government for its lack of a philosophy,that it was about time that the record was put straight, Mr. Speaker, in this House as it relates not only to hydro resource development that this resolution directs itself to, but this is a symbol of the kind of philosophy that has pervaded Newfoundland politics, Newfoundland society for hundreds of years, and especially since the Confederation era,since 1949.

And it is interestin~ when one looks at it in that perspective, looks at the ,Five Year Plan of this government, looks at the policy statements that have 1C4S,.,

r ,J December ~ L.r B81 ? i!..Li· _:;:Ert :?ECKFORD: Tape 3962 PI< - 3 mal~~ ~-4.- ca..r .!..y a::r .... uru-nis-cakenaD.LY by t:his party and by this go't,:·er:-~~.ent c.~:c: lcc]:;:s at v;ha~.: tl'- ~e ~1.~:: .. g 2:-~tle~·.en cp;.c.:=lte, the 1-:..on. crcwd opposite=:: haYe G.-.:·ne with the !'esources af Newfou~6land, it is very interes~i~g t~ f:;ee how tl1ey can star:.d up ana ~.ot:t!l su.c'h stater.ie-nts c.s ·::.::s ~t have last day. Mr. 3peaker, I have done 1 [')it;:, 1

.. __. .... _ .... -----·...-.- - P?.~ : .. ·!~ ~ ?'t:'C¥.

E'O? .D: . .. --.r::- soC!e research on tl:l.z rciatter and would lj_ke today to just indicat:= that, if •-:e go back and look at what happened £ror:t abo·c1.t . 1949 throu gr '::.~-= fi::'ties and sixties, Ke s~f a Liberal Party philosoph y and a Liberal Go,Teri1ment which believed in down-grading our re:newable reo- sourcea and our fishery, down-grading our forestry and 3tarted to bring in the chocolate bar factories, the J.eather goods factories, the battery factorie&, the heavy machinery fact- ories, manufacture textiles, the rubber boots and the gloves and so on.

And this went on for five or ten years and this party, and the members opposite who now constitute that party, stil: adhere to that same outmoded policy of resource development of industrialization of this Province. SOJ\1E HON • MEMBERS: He:ar, hear~ PREMIER PECKFORD: They link themselves almost daily in Question Period to it. They laud them~elves every day >>hen they pronounce again the principles that nriderl.ie their development policy, and it is the sa.me. And then, Mr.

Speaker, what the Liberal Party did after the fifties when that miserably failed, they decided to return again to some basic resource development policy. AN HON .MEMBER: You were a Liberal then. PREMIER PECKFORD: ·And I saw the light very quickly, Hr. Speaker, I· saw the light very quickly. SOME HON. ME~::BERS : Hear, hear~ PREMIER PECKFORD: ' While the light holds out to burn/ The vilest sinner may return,' and that goes out to the hon. member opposite. Now, Mr. Speaker, so they tried to return again to see what they could do.

Now let us look at some of the things they went back to after they got out of the chocolate ba~· factories and out of the battery factor- ies which failed miserably. This is Liberal Party 1 n 4; '·

December 2, 1981 'J.'ape NO. 3963 EL - 2 PRE: !<liER PEC KFC::S . i::d~.s~rializa~io::. ~:inir.:.g - in the Liberal years, Newfound.lanC. ;·,au i:.he higl,c,.:. c ,:,.::: capita production of minerals of a~y Canadian province but benefited financially the least from these resources. In fact, during the 1950's, direct revenues received by the Province from all :nining operations ~;ere just ever l per cent of the gross value of mineral" shipment. That ·wa.s less tnan the royalties rec- ie:ved fro:n John C. Doyle fro,T .

Wabush Iron. i3y comparison today, because o= the P€ Government's mining and mineral rights tax act of 1975, Newfoundland now receives 105 per cent more revenues than we did under the Liberals. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ PREMIER PECKFORD: Under ~~e Liberal administration seventy-seven pe:c cent of the Island was covered by concess- ions held by eight companies. M'K. HODDER: A point of order, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, . please! A point of order has been raised by the hen. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker- SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER PECKFORD: You have to take up the time now, have you not? MR. HODDER: No, Mr. Speaker, I \•10uld not want to take up the Premier's time. I was enjoying it. Mr. Speaker, the only reason I rise on a point of order is because of the relevancy of what I am hearing opposite. The motion which is on the Order Paper deals with hydro power, present sources of electricity, hydro potential, hydro resources - these are all the whereases- Gull Island power, the Happy Valley - Goose Bay area, the 1 q ' - - lr U ~~ L,

~ D9ce!!lber ?, 1981 Ta·o~ NO . 3963 EL - 3 MR. HODDER: federal government and the res- ol,e.:l l;rart of the resolution says 'that the House urge t!le Governrr:ent of Canada to :1phoJ.d ·::he province 1 s right to fair and equal treatment to the transmission of its energy resources.' ~ow, Mr. Speaker, it is my con- ;:ention t!1at - and I did lis ten to the Speaker 1 s ruling yes­ te~·day on a particular bill which ~~e were debating yesterday in which we had to be relevant,and I would ask the Premier i.:;o confin.: his remarks to this particular. bill \'!hich he cert- ainly is not doing.

PREMIER PECKFORD: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. l-1R. SPE.;KER (Simms): To tl1e point of order, the hon. the Premier. ·PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order, if I may be allm"!=d to address my ·self just very b.r:iefly to it, I!.ast week wl;!en the speaking went on in tllis.hon.House, I think it was the consensus of all here that it would be p. wide-ranging debate upon the resource management of the Province. Both sides had articulated certain positions on that, not just ' directly on hydro power, nurr~er one. And number two, Mr.

Speaker, I would submit that when one looks at the legisl- ation now on the Crder Paper which is being debated as it rel~tes to splitting the functions of the Deputy Minister of Finance and the Comptroller General,which the Leader of the Opposition and all members of the Opposition have used as a way of getting at economic problems in the Province,that they are the worst culprits when it comes to irrelevancy. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear,hear! 1 []l, s r::

December 2, 1981, Tape 39ti4, Page l -- apo .. ~:: s-:os_n_KER~Sirnrns): Well, ~vi th respect to relevan::y, a favourite topic in the last couple of ~2ys certainly, and the member for Port au Port (Mr . Hodder) brougi1t i-t into the debate or; tl-:.i3 pa::-t.!.:::-.J.la.r point of order, and I would caution him not to confuse yesterday's rulings with respect to relevancy with today's rulings. I have researched <~nd read Hansard of last Wednesday and found that indeed there was a very varied and wide expression of opinion allowed on both sid~s.

In addition the han. member quotes the WHEREASES; there are also references in the WREREASES to the devlopment of the Province's resources for the economic and social benefits of the people and so on and so forth, so I think it is fair to say that h~s been transpiring over the past few days has been a w:Lde and flexible debat 'e and the hon. the Premier mq.y carry on. S~ME HON. ~MBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, because the Opposition do not want to hear what we have to say today on this matter, Mr. Speaker.

I was getting on to the ntining part of it,and I wanted to indicate under the Liberals, under the Liberal administration, this great Liberal Party over there,' 77 per cent of the Island­ now I have five minutes. Another point of order and I will not have any - was covered with concessions held by only eight co~panies; and because of the Minerals Act of 1976, the great P.C. reform, the number of companies engaged in exploration in the Province was over 60. In 1978 alone over 9,000 claims were staked Before 1972 claim staking was non-existent. 1 G4 s 7

.. ... Dace~ber 2, 1ga1, Tape 3964, Page 2 -- apb PREMIER PEC.KFORD; ~~. Speaker, 1~~ ~e ~uz~ address myself to the forest innustry and what happ c.nc.d when the Liberals \vere in po.-,.;e:;:-, when they gave away all the t.r.:es. We have bee~ now over ten years t~ying to get it all back. We now have the concessions gone and m<' .nagement contrac1:s in plz .ce for twenty years. In the fishery, Mr. Speaker, the Liberal years, the 1950s a:td '60s we re marked by a rapid build-up of foreiqn fishing fleets.

During the same period, from '49 to '56, Newfoundland's take of pelagic species, like herring, fell from close_to 100 per cent to.l2 per cent. The Liberals did nothing to ·'S::, counteract the effort of foreign fleets and protect the livelihood of inshore fishermen. What is really reflected here is the essence of ·the well-known Liberal policy, 'Burn your boats'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Now, 1-tr. Speaker, let us get on into the middle of the '60s and what happened. And I want to show a very startling statistic 1in the next four minutes 1that comes out of this.

Marystown Shipyard, a Liberal policy, total cost to the provincial government since 1967: The Province has provided direct funding L, the for.m of subsidies totalling $42.5 million and, in addition, another $11.5 million in guaranteed loans. The ERCO contract:· A twenty-five year contract at 2.5 mils per kilowatt hour. Cost to the province -before the P.C's renegotiated it, $60 million. Come by Chance Refinery: Here is Liberal policy for you. The refinery wa's to have cost $198 million, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER(Simrns): 1 () I ;: fl t .. u ·' (Inaudible) ERCO. Order!

December 2, 1981, Tape 39'54, Page 3 --- apb ?Li.EHl~R 2.t.CK£0RD: A provincial C1-·c ... , corporation was to be set up to run the refinery Wlth John Shaheen operator. Just listen to this, Nr. Speaker . He was to operate on a col!Ullission basis and once debt was repaid he was t.o buy the refinery for $2,000. SOME HON - MEMBERS: Oh! Shameful! PREMIER PEC:KE'ORD: This , of cot·.r se , was approve-d by the member for LaPoile Ulr. Ne:J..=

y) who was in the Cabinet at the time, the member for the S~rait of Belle Isle(Mr. Rcberts) who was in the Cabinet at the time, and the member for Twillingate(Mr. W. Rowe), the same people who inhabit the hallowed halls of the Opposition seats, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shameful! Shameful! PREMIER PECKFORD: Liberal Linerboard Mill: This is the great Liberal Party that has a vision for the future of this Province. The report o= the Economic Council of Car,ada 1980 said this about the Labrador Linerboard mill: 'A classic illustration of political attempts to overcome e~onomy.

The Labrador Linerboard mill was started in '69 with a $54 million loan guarantee and within three years the loan swelled to $114 million'. Listen, Mr. Speaker. 'Total cost o Provin~e at the time of the Labrador Linerboard's closure in 1977, $300 ,nill.ion' - $300 million. SOME HON. MEMBERS: PREHIER PECKFORD: . - Party. Sh:l.me! Shame! Shame! Given away by the Liberal The Upper Churchill contract, Mr. Speaker: A sixty-five year contract, the first forty years at 3 mils 1 ~JL.~.a

......,~L.CJ.~.U..,.,t:;£ .t. I l9Q..i_ J. 0.!:-'..;:: ..;..,u_, PRE!-1IER PECKFORD: per kilowatt-hour, the firs~ forty years. The next twenty-five years it g9es down to 2. 3 mils pe-.:- kilowatt-hour. Lost to ;-.;e,vi.oundland taxpayers · to dac.e, based on the rate the Province of Quebec is no•v charging its customers, $2 billion, A give-away. SON.E HON. MZI"'BERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFOJID: Nol'f, Mr.

Speaker~ if you do the figures, if you do the figures on just five Liberal projects, five Liberal project~- Upper Churchill, ERC0, Labrador Linerboard mill, Marysi::own Shipyard, Come By Chance - how much have they sold down th e drain, l-1r. Speaker, just on those five- forget the bar factories, 'the rubbers and all the rest of it- bow much? $2,462,500,000. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shawe! Shame! Shame! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, what does that work out to in per capita, per ~aptia debt,· per capita debt as a result of tnat?

Every man, \'loman and child,- j"ust on those projects, owes $4,250, just on five Liberal projects. And these gentlemen over here can get up and squeal and bawl, Mr. Speaker, about resource management and long term planning and ask short-term Stirling over there to look for some way out of the morass by throwing more money at it. Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party of Newfoundland is still the Liberal Party of the fifties and sixties, and they want to qek. in power and give away more of this Province's resources. And I do not think, Mr. Speaker, the people of Newfoudland have changed since 1979.

They know what the member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) is made of. They know what the member for the Straits of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) is made of. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : PREMIER PECKFORD: we will have no part of it. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! It is a give away part y , and Hear, hear! 1Uhr-n

D~cember 2, 1981 Tc.pe No. 3965 ~;~1 - ~ SO ME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ Mi< . SPEAKER (S ir.Lrcs) Order, please! Order, please! The hon. member for Terra Nova hc.s the floor. c'\lR. l"LIG~T: Talk about our ?er capita deb .t. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEA!<"EE: The ilon. member for T.:rra Nova · has t.h 'e floor. ~1R. FLIGB"T: Our per capita debt has tripled under the Tories. quadrupled under the Tories. MR. SPEA..'<ER: Order, please! Tl·le hon. member for Terra Nova has the floor. ___ ... MR. FLIGH·r: ----- Our per capita debt has tripled lli~der the Tories. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR • FLIGh"'': Tripled. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker - MR. STIRLING: Can I speak again? MR. SPEAKER: No. You and the hon. me~her for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) have both spoken. MR. LUSH: -much of what the Premier has said does not deserve comment. It is not worthy of commenting on, Mr. Speaker. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. FLIGHT: Nor is the Premier. 1[:1d11

DeceTT'.ber 2. 1":-ll Taoe ~Jo. 3965 NM - 3 MR. LIJSE: Mr. Speaker, the Pre.mier wanted to demons+:rate that his party had· a pi"l_ilosophy ','lith respect to t~e d>='7el.::Jpl'te:J.t of this Provine~, •.vi th respect to the dGveloprnent of natural resources. MR. FLIGHT: $3 billion in eight years. MR. LUSH: Nobody on this side ever accus<;;d the PC Party, or the present govern::.1ent, for a lack oi philosophy. Nobody on this side ever ever did that. Because let me assure hon. members, that is one thing they have, is e philosophy. They have a philosophy, Mr.

Speaker, but the difference in the philosophy of the Liberal Party that the Premier was trying to degrade a moment ago, Mr: Speaker, the difference in that philosophy and the difference in the philosophy of the present PC Party today was that the Liberals acted upon their philosphy. They acted upon it, Mr. Speaker. They performed. They did something, Mr. · Spec>.k.er. They performed. The Premier di.d not say, Mr. Speaker, the Premier did not say in aJ.l of his denunciation of the Liberals back in the fifties, the Premier did not say that the unemployment rate at that particular time never exceeded 7 per cent.

The ?remier did not say that. ~he Premier did not say that the unemployment rate never exceeded 7 per cent. And today it is at 17 per cent. It is at 17 per cent. That is what the Premier did not; say. Mr. Speaker, that is performance. That is performance. 1 [} l.d:; ')

\ ... Decembe1: 2, 1981 'rape 3%6 .c;c - 1 MR. LUSF: The Prer:tier talks abo11t the i ~creases in royalties. Mr.Speaker, all oi th~t is relative. 0~ salary i~ 1~65 or r.ty salary today - 1·10!!. c1E'DE!c: You are overpaid. HR. LUSH: I ar:t not getting nearly as r:!uch as I could get en the market,which is an awful lot more than hon. members on the other side can say. AN HON. MEHBER: MP .• LuSH: You sho~ld go ~ack to work. I may. But, Mr. Speaker, my sc>.lary today is eight times what it was in 1965, and that analo~z is sufficient enough, Mr. Speaker, to ur..dermine everything that the Premier said. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~.R • . J,USH: T~e ERCO deal, Mr. Speaker, is not as good as what it was under the Liberal administration; $13 million a year we are subsidizing ERCO by, Hr. Speaker. MR. FLIGHT: $1J million every year~ MR. LUSH: $L3 million. So, Mr. Speaker, all of these figures are just simply relative. Naturally, if one adds up the incomes and the revenues from the royalties and this sort of thing, Mr. Sp.eaker, if this government cannot show an increase from what it was in 1950 - What nonsense! But what does it mean to the government in today's dollars? That is what we are talking about, ~tr.

Speaker, and there has been no chancre with ERCO. ·Mr. Speaker, there was no unemployment - fie talked about the lack of a forestry policy ~ there was no unemployment in the forestry, Mr. Speaker, back in the 1950s. Gamba, Mr. Speaker, and Glovertown, communities in my district, were all viable communities with 100 per cent employment. What is it today? What nonsense, Mr. Speaker! The audacity and the effrontery of the Premier to get up and to make such nonsensical statements, Mr. Speaker! It is a wonder he did not get 1 i'lhflq

\. ,,, Ut::G2HiliE::C 2, 1981 ~iipe 396-J .c:c - 2 MR. LUSH: up and talk about th& jncreases in tne number of cars that have come around and the increases in the number cf refrigerators in people's homes. It is all relative, Mr. Speaker, b~t in tGr~s of the actual dollars to this Province it does not mean a row of beans. The measure, Mr. Speaker, the criterion by which we measure this government, is take the unemploy- ment statistics and compare them, when under a Liberal administration it never exceeued 7 per cent and today. we are talking about 17 per cent. That is where they are, Mr. Speake;:- - SOME nON.

MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Orde:r, please! MR. LUSH: - a philosophy they have. We have never said they were without a philosophy. That is what they are expert at, Mr. Speaker. That is what they are good at, formulating philosophy, but they never act upon it. Performance, that is the measure, Mr. Speaker. Mr, Speaker, the industrial development programme of the Liberals in the 1950s - and I do not want to dwell on th~t. I was not around, Mr.

Speaker, but I was certainly a recipient, and my family and all of my relatives were recipients of the benefits, and they were able to earn a living, a decent living, which is what the people of this Province cannot do today. They were able to obtain employment, Mr. Speaker, which 1[l~hi

' ttl ~.~ December '"!, 1981 Tape No. 3957 SD - 1 MR. LUSH: the people of today cannot do, Mr. Sj?aake:.::. And that is the measure, ~!r. Sj?eakE:r, I am not listening to the mecber for St. John's North (Mr. Carter), he does not understand Newfoundland in the slightest. He is one of severRl of hi3 C:)l2.eagues ~'lho thinks that Newfoundland e!l.ds at the overpass, Mr. Speaker.. But there is a bigger Nev1foundland out there, ~tr. Speaker, we~e the recipients of the benefits of the Liberal Party indu.strial stragety and their philosophy in the '50s and in the '60, Mr.

Speaker, and I w::mld venture to say that they would ratner go back to that today t~en to be suffering under a government that is doing no ·thing. Mr. Speaker, the record of the Liberal administration '.rill stand up to sc~tiny, it will stand up to scrutiny. They could talk about the deal with ERCO, but let tham announce some ERCOs iil . the Province • T.hev are very p~oud of it today. Let them announce some mines in Labrador City and Wabush, Mr. Speaker, let them talk about the gypsum plant in Corner Brook, let them talk about the great Churchill develc~Qent, Mr.

Speaker, which most of them over there do.not have one single clue about, not a single clue. They do not understand the magnitude of the job, not, Mr. Speaker, the first kind of clue. And, Mr. Speaker, by their performance now on this particular bill we are talking about, by their performance now we would never have had the Upper Churchill if these people had to be around. Mr. Speaker, what they are tal~tng about 1the Lower Churchill,is not even peanuts compared to the Upper Churchill. They cannot get off the ground with it, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGHT: $300 million. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.

LUSH: In eight years they spent Oh, oh. They do not have the slightest idea, Mr. Speaker, what it involves. But, Mr. Speaker, this 104h~ ....

n-.,. December 2, l98t . :· 1e No.. 3 9 6 7 5u - 2 1-!R. LUSH: resolution today, let me talk about this resoluti.on todciy, Mr. Speaker, and this is another extensi~n of the continuing saga of fed b~shing. This is what it is, Mr. Speaker, just another political toy, it is a diversionary tactic, an attempt again to divert the public attention away from the lack of .performance by this government. That is what it is, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. LUSH: And they have bee~ doinq it, Mr. Speaker, for the past six or seven yea~s. This is a smokescreen. Mr. Speaker, and the problem is - ~.

FLIGHT: Ask the Minister of Fisheries . !J'.R. LUSH: Now, Mr. Sreaker, hon. members - talk abc:ut support - they would wish that we would not support this particular bill, Mr. Speaker. That is what they would wish, Mr. Speaker, but we will support awy bill, any legislation, any measure, Mr. Speaker, that is going to improve, that is going to beof benefit to the people of this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. We will support any measure. Mr. Speaker, we supported all the major issues relating to the development of this Province - offshore, fisheries - we have supported them all. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, we pioneered the measures that have been brough here, we pioneered them. SOME HC•N. MEMBERS : Hear, hea~ ·. MR. LUSH: They are just going back, Mr. Speaker, and picking up the lose ends that we left. Back in the 'S"Os, back in the '60s, Mr. Speaker, this was onl y trivia talking about MR. FI ,IGHT: The !>linister of Fisheries is leaving,as usual. The Minister of Fisheries is going, he cannot stand the truth. 18Lthr.

Dece!nber 2, 1981 Ta!>e "ln. 3967 SD - 3 t-1~ . LUSH: --- One thing , Mr . Speaker, this government has been ccns ~stent in and th«t is in the enunciation ar.d ._ articulation of a philosophy, poi:tt :'IUI:lber one . Po2.nt number t\<~O 1 whi.ch they have been very con sistent in and that is , ~lr . Speaker, aJ. 1va ·1s in a co nstant confrontation 1-1ith Otta• .. ;a . That L; poi:1t nun;ber t,.,o . But the irony of it is, they have never !:>~en conslster.t 1..-ith respect to th e issues that they have been in coufrontaticn Ni"':.h Ottawa about , never consi stent about it , 11r.

Speaker , never. consistent about it at al l, just groping in the dark trying to find so.methinq whereby they can divert puolic atte ntion away from their lack of per£ormance , tryL~g to deflect .:1tte ntio n, that is what they have been doing, .t-tr·. Spea ker, )lnd tne y hav e bee n swin'3ing fr om one idea to the nex t - offshore , and tha t has be~n elaborated upon . Three i te .ms, Mr . Speaker , I thought that would be all over after the Ccnst:i..tution was brought do•.m : 1 r~ il r; 7 ., ··~

7'! I December 2, 1981, Tape 3968, .Page 1 -- apb !·~R . .i....,~,...;_ -_: The of~~~ore, Mr. Speaker, and t-~he £lsherit::!s ar-.~.G. ~:.: ·,~.2 t-ra:r ... srnis3.:.::~ of ~~;dro p o ~·7e:r througll Quebec. I. thought, Mr. Speaker, wh en the c~ns~itution was brought down, when the cons titution was solved, all of that 'was going to be over because the Premier made thnt his point, these three points, these niajor points as to why he was fearful of wha ·i: was happening to the constitution.

And he was not going to give in to all of those things,he assured us, until all of those things were written in stone within the constitution. And what happened, Mr. Speaker, what has happened? Here we find ourselves today still talking about those items. So the transmission of hydro power, we have come back to it again and we can elaborate on how the government have changed their position on it. But just on the offshore, it was ownership and nothing else. Mr.

Speaker, \"hen the Prime Minister of Canada made his offer, the offer by which now we are going to ent~r into negotiations, two years ago the Prime Minister made the offer, but the government ignored it, they ignored it and went on putting out propaganda, Mr. Speaker, and telling how we were going to get robbed in the offshore by using some figures that nobody knew where they came from. Well, ~r. Speaker, now they are going to go for a settlement, so they turned about-face on that. one. Now, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the transmission of hydro power. Mr.

Speaker, the point of the matter is that these hon. members opposite, they do not know what they are going after. They brought up this issue and they wanted a corridor through Quebec. What did the Prime Minister say? The Prime Minister went along with that. The Prime Minister said that would be done, if they found the markets. 1 [!41- ,A :!

~ I ~acember ~' :931, T~~~ :9:; s~, D ~ ~~ ,~ I .......... ':/_ :.p::: MR. LUSH: So, Mr. ,Speaker, that was taken care of. But they are still igno:c:ing that. And every issue the fede1 :ai go' Jern!'1ent has pull ed the rllg out from und2r them. What has happened? What has happened, Mr. Speaker, is that the federal. gov~rnment have been too, too co-operative with them. '!'hey have been trying to find an issue OI1 which the federal government will not co-operate. But, Mr. Speaker, thay have co-operated too much. They have . . co-operated on the offshore.

And we know we are going to get a settlement on the offshQre right along the lines that the Prime Minister mentioned. But now the Premier is trying to psyche up the people of Newfollndland to let them know what a great fight this is going to be. He was quoted in the press c.s saying last night, 'We are making progress but do not expect an early settlement ', . No, no. Do not expect an early settlement. tt is going to be Spring.' And in that time, Mr.

Speaker, we can expect a beefing up of a campaign; how much work they are doing and how hard it is going to be to nail down an agreement with Ottawa, an agreement, Mr. Speaker, that, when it ~s in place, will be no different from what the Prime Minister offered. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear:· Right on! MR. LUSH: That is going to be it, ~r. Speaker. So they are wearing thin, Mr. Speaker, these arguments are wearing thin. And how han. members could get up and put this resolution down today, Mr. Speaker, is incredible. It is incredible, Mr.

Speaker, how a party could be groping in the dark, grappling for some­ thing to latch on to to try and take up the people's attention. It is absolutely ridiculous, Mr. Speaker, 1C!4f=iO

December 2, 1981, Tape 3969, Page 2 -- apb ::::>. PJSH: e.~Sr:' 1 .·~t~2.:r ridiculo, .. s. A~= ~s ~ ~ave s~i~. Speaker, they have not made clear what it is they want. They know that the corridor through Quebec is not economically feasible. They know that. The only way that power will come out of the Lower Churchill is through the existing power lines. ·rhat is the '<lay i.t is going to be. So what have the federal government done? They have told them that the corridor is there, they will get the corridor when they get the markets, I>lr. Speaker. They funded LCDC, $15 million - MR.

FLIGHT: To the Province's $10 million. MR. LUSH: - then, Mr. Speaker, they give them $200 million, $200 million awarded in last year's budget, for the financing of the development of the Lower Churchill. Oh, but that is not enough, Mr. - Speaker. The federal government, who we thought was a co-operative government in terms of helping this Province, all of a sudden they have become our nemesis, they have become our anathema. That is what happened, Mr. Speaker, to a government - SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. FLIGHT: (Mr. Morgan) is back. MR. MORGAN: MR. FLIGHT: Oh, oh!

The Minister of Fisheries (Inaudible) tryinq to impress (inaudible) The Minister of Fisheries is back, he cannot stand the truth. MR. HOLLETT: He does not understand what is being said. MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) you anyway. MR. FLIGHT: When the Minister of Fisheries does not know what a word means, he does not like it. 1iJh7n

December 2, 1981, Tape 3969, Page 3 -- apb ~R. MORGAN : Yr;n are gone this time, r:-.~· bo:t .. , ~i'C"..1. a~e gene . SO~£ HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HR. FLIGHT: When the ~!inister of Fishries does not understand a word,. or does not know the meaning of it, he does not like it. MR. LUSH: ---- Mr. Speaker, the difference with me and that hon. gentleman, when I aro gone I will find another job. There will be no difficulty for me to find another job. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, o!1! MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible). MR. ·LUSH: There will be no difficulty, Mr. Speaker, there will be no difficulty in finding a job. MR.

MORGAN: You were turned down . MR. FLIGHT: The Minister of Fisheries, Mr. Speaker, if he does not understand a word, or he does not know the meaning, he does not like it when you use it. MR. WARREN: (Inaudible). MR. LUSH: If the member wants to know the truth I can show him two acceptances, if he wants. them. MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) in the education field, they would not have you. MR. SPEAKER(Baird): Order, please! I would ask the hon. hte Minister of Fishe=ies and the member for Windsor - Buchan~- (Mr. Flight) to please restrain themselves. The han. the member for Terra Nova(Mr. Lush) has the floor. MR.

HOLLETT: Ignore him, 'Tom'. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, t 1 fl ;, 7 1

December 2,1981 Tape No. 3970 ah-1 Vl:>_ T,USP.: the fedec~l government have come -.:h2.:cu;r~ in e" 7ery inst.a~ce. They have now, Mr. Speaker, put $15 million into LCDC. They offered the Province $2GO million but. no, ~-1 r. Speaker, that is :10t en ou-;h,th at is not enough. They want now the federal gove_rnment to do their nego~iating for them becaase they know they cannot negotiate. Now they want them to do their negotiation with Premter Lev~sque, Mr.

Speaker, in Quebec, to try and come up with some sort of an ar.rangement, some sort of a political arrangement to wheel our power through the existing power line. But they do not have the ability, Mr.Speaker, to negotiate and they expect the federal government to do this work for them. How much do they expect the federal government to do, Mr.Speaker? What do they expect them to do? One wonders \·lhy we have a government, why we have a provincial government.In 1977, Mr. Speaker, the former Premier announced that - MR. MOORES: The Premier is back. MR. FLI§!!!.:_ The Premier is back. MR.

MOORES: Come in and sit down with us. MR. FLIGHT: Timing is everything , Hr.Speaker. MR. MOORES: Go for broke. MR. LUSH: - he had a deal with Premier Levesque, Mr. Speaker, develop the hydro potential of Labrador jointly, that was in 1977 1even though Levesque had said that we have agreed to disagree on certain matters. But it looked like they had something going, it Looked like they had laid the foundation.But since this government came in_, Mr.Speaker, since this government came in they have agreed to disagree on everything. So, Mr. Speaker, this motion is a lot of nonsense and, Mr.

Speaker, when the hon. member introduced this motion he demonstrated quite clearly that he did not understand what he was getting into. MR. FLIGHT: Or what he was talking about. 1\l47CJ to

_\ December 2,1981 ·:rape i-4u. .) U I G ai1-~ ' MR. LUSH:, Mr. Speaker, he gave figures that were ancient practically, figures that were ancient in terms of what the mi"l rate ;vould be in de'-'el oping i:~e Lm ·rer Churchill, in terms of \vhet the cost t,o7ould be. !>!r. Speaker, they were so outdated that I think the memb8r did his research back before he got elected. MR. FLIGHT: He di6. not talk to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan). MR. LUSH: It certainly was not very current, Mr.Spcaker. So ,Mr. Speaker, ~ertainly the principle of the motion , certainly the principle of the hili we support.

It is the tactics, it is the tactics that have been employed - session after session bringing in these issues, Mr.Speaker, that are nothing more than diversionary tactics, red herrings, just to direct public attention away from ·the lack of performance of this qovernment. MR. MORG&~: ( Ina 1.ldible) be lookir.g for a job. MR~H:-- Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) could go down to my district now, from now until the time the election is called and he will not make o~e bit of difference.

The whole Cabinet could go down,as they did the last time 1and I increased my vote, Mr.Speaker, by 400 and this time I expect I will increase it by another 1000. The hon. minister should be a little bit more concerned about his own district, Mr. Speaker, than talking about other peDple' s district, j_ ~ he should be a bit more concerned about that. But anyway, Mr. Speaker, this motion, certainly we support its principle 1 but the motion is not the kind of motion that we should be dealing with in this hon. House at this point in time. Mr.

Speaker, there are so many other more important items that we should be dealing with because the hon. member knows why hebrought in this motion. As I said it is just a continuation, it is just an extension of the saga that 1 n t.L, ~

December 2,1981 Tape No. 3970 ah-3 MR. LUSH: we have been subjected to in this han. House the past two or three years, it is just a continuing saga of fed-bashing 1that is all,Mr. Speaker, a continuing saga of the confrontation 1 :u~ 7 1. , ·J

·~r· December 2, 1981 Tape 3971 PK - 1 MR. LUSH: tactics that they have been using with the federal government in an attempt, Mr. Speaker, in an attempt to disillusion and deceive the people of this Province. That is what it is all about. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR, DINN; A ver¥ P.Oor memory , ~m . ~1 0 R G AN: Or no Il)ert)ory at all. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for t!1e Bay of Islands. MR. MOORES: Bay of Islands" MR. FLIGHT: Ah, the truth will out, 'Jim', SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WOODROW: Every great man in history is known for some g~eat deeds. Mr. Speaker, the present hon.

Premier will be known in history for the great part he played in the Canadian ronstitution - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WOODROW: - which is done. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. WOODROW: Number two, for the offshore rights well underway, hopefully concluded early in the r.rew Year. Number three, Lower Churchill F.alls,not too far do~m the road. MR. FLIGHT: Who said that in 1971, •Luke'? MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, I would love to have the floor to myself,because this is so important a resolution I have prepared something, I am not saying anything off the cuff.

So I would if you would be kind enough to let me have the floor, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Order! 1 ;!h7~

r December 2, 1981 Tape 3971 PK - 2 MR. WOODROW: I would first 6f all, Nr. Speaker, like to congratulate my colleague, the member for Harbour Main-Bell Island (Mr. Doyle) for placing this important Private M~ber's motion before this hor.. House for our consideration and discussion. I would find it very surprising , and I already have, if anyone present here today would disagree with the theme and trust of this resolution.surely,_ Mr.

Speaker, any Newfoundlander and Labradorian who has followed the ongoing impasse and frustration which has shrouded this issue,would agree with this Province's right to fair and equal treatment in the transmission of its energy resource. AN HON. MEMBER: A quorum call, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : Order, please! There is a quorum call MR. HOUSE: r;:'"lere were fourteen here when he called the quorum, Hr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER l will ask the Clerk to count the members present. We have a quorum . The hon. member for the Bay of Islands. MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, I will not make any comment on that quorum call.

DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! We have a point of order? l-1R. '1-JOODROW: I am sorr y. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Finance (Dr. Collins) • DR. COLLINS: Thank you. I have a very brief point of order, Mr. Speaker. My understanding is that a member may call for a quorum call and then he may leave the House, he may not stand in, so I have no quarrel with t r~t. But when the hon. member opposite called for a quorum call not only did he leave but many of his colleagues left too.Now,,I lo il 1·~ 1 r'i ' -

December 2, 1981 Tape 3971 PK - 3 DR . COLLINS: do not think that is according to the rules of this House . I think that is a rather despicable act, it ·Nas<i esigned to interfere with my hon . friend 's right to speak in this House,and I think that is completely out of order . SOME BON . MEl-ffiERS : Hear, hear! MR. SP.EAKER (~airdl: To that point of order, H!il 7 7 •·

... December 2, 1981 Tape 3972 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Baird): the Chair has no control as to who comes and goes in the House, but just to see that there is a quorum present. Bay of Islands. MR. WOODROW: The han. the member for Mr. Speaker, I will not make any comment on the quorum call, I will leave that to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador when the next election is called. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

WOODROW: Surely, Mr. 'speaker, any Newfoundlander and Labradorian who has followed the ongoing impasse and frustration which has shrouded this issue, would agree with this Province's right to fair and equal treatment in the transmission of its energy resources. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, virtually all of our people have voiced their support of and encouragement for our Premier's diligent stand on resource development and his energetic efforts to put forward our Province's needs and aspirations, which are, Mr. Speaker, unquestionably tied to the development of our rich natural resources. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, I am proud to be associated with this government and I can assure this House that we shall continue, Mr. Speaker, to press ahead until we have secured equality of treatment within the Canadian family, nothing more or nothing less. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, we are living in an energy-hungry world. International economics and politics have demonstrated that foreign oil supplies are not secure and that low-cost energy is a thing of the past. Whilst most provinces have no other alternative energy supplies and are, for the most 1l147Q

December 2, 1981 Tape 3972 EC - 2 MR. WOODROW: part, dependent on oil and gas and other non-renewable energy sources, Newfoundland and Labrador, as we all know, does possess attractive alternatives. Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland and Labrador is blessed with an abundant supply of hydro-electric power, energy which is renewable, reliable and stable, energy which is in great demand throughout the Province, the nation and the United States.

Despite the tremendous potential offered by the planned development of our hydro resources, it is both alarming and distressing to witness the growing dependence on oil generated electricity. Let members think that one over. Mr. Speaker, central to our future hydro strategy is the renegotiation of the Upper Churchill contract, of which the Province of Quebec, it appears, our sister province,under the direction of Premier Levesque, is intent on reaping excessive profits it almost makes me sick and vomit when I have to talk about it - on the backs of the people of our Province!

The existing contract price of Upper Churchill po~er sold to Quebec is less than 3 mils per kilowatt hour. This price declines slightly over the first forty years of the contract and drops even further for the last twenty-five years of the contract. Mr. Speaker, this has been said over and over again, but we have to emphasize it. At presentthe normal market price for power would range within 30 and 40 mils per kilowatt hour - AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. MR.

WOODROW: - which means that the market value of the electricity sold to Quebec from the Upper Churchill is now between $1 billion ~~d $1.5 billion annually. Today, if we had our rights, Mr. 1 n [, 7 n

December 2, 1981 Tape No. 3973 EL - 1 MR. WOODROW: Speaker, we would not have any sales tax in this Province. MR. STIRLING: MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, - And that is our fault? That is our fault? Not exactly your fault, no it is not. ~any of you were not even around in those days. Mr. Speaker, the contract gives Quebec the equivalent of 5,000,000 barrels of oil a year at the rate of $1.80 a barrel, not too bad. Hardly fair and equal treatment. Mr. Speaker, coupled with this unjust and unrealistic situation is Quebec's insistence that any power from Newfoundland must be sold to it or its agents at the border.

Is this standard practice for other commodities that are subject to international trade, whether they be oil,automobiles, fish etc.? No, Mr. Speaker. It is an accepted principle that oil and gas can be transported inter­ provincially by pipeline free from interference. Who is it then that the federal government - rather, I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, why is it then that the federal government seems unwilling to exercise this authority through the National Energy Board to allow for the transmission of hydro power through neighbouring provinces in the same manner as oil and gas transmission is now present! MR.

HISCOCK: MR. FLIGHT: In what way? (Inaudible). MR. WOODROW: Now, Mr. Speaker, when the hon. gentleman spoke,from Windsor-Buchans (Mr.Flight), I did not disrupt him. I did not interfere, excuse me, and not only that but,in fact 1I was under the impression that he gave a good speech. But now I think- he is an expert on it. I am not such an expert as he is. I think he should give me 1ili.Rn

December 2, 1981 Tape No. 3973 EL - 2 MR. WOODROW: the right- if I am saying any- thing wrong, well, there is a time for him to correct what I am saying,but not while I am speaking. MR . SPEAKER (Baird): Order, please! The hen. member has the right to be heard in silence. For the second time, I would ask the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) to res­ train himself. MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, the question begs to be answered. How can it be that a province with massive undeveloped hydro power must find in excess of 30 per cent of the Island's electrical requirements from expensive im­ ported oil?

You know, Mr . Speaker, I think ,roughly speaking, we are getting 44 per cent of our energy from the Holyrood station which is run by oil, as you know, forcing escalated - M..~. STAGG: MR. WOODROW : Seventy-seven per cent. How much, 77 per cent?-forcing escalated electricfty ··rat~s in the vicinity of 130 per cent from 1973 to 1980. Ask residents who have installed electric heat in their homes if they are finding it increasingly difficult to pay their heating bills. Yes, Mr. Speaker, in a Province boasting one of the largest hydro electric facilities in the world, boasting unlimited hydro development potential.

Mr . Speaker, we must get on with the job. And let me go on to say, Mr. Speaker, I think when it comes to fishery, when it comes to hydro,these things that are so important to all our people, I think we have to lay our political beliefs asider we have to join together as Newfoundlanders. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 1[li!R'I

December 2, 1981 Tape No. 3973 EL - 3 MR. WOODROW: That is the important thing, join together as Newfoundlanders. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. WOO PROW; Get on with the job. If you want to join the NDP or the communists or what have yo.u, that is Up to yourselves. but I think when it comes to the important resource of our Province we have to say yes, when we would like to say no. ~r. Speaker, we must get on with the job of developing our hydro resources to provide the energy required for industrial growth and economic expansion. Mr.

Speaker, how in the name of goodness are we going to get an aluminum smelter somewhere in the Province unless we have the power2 I would say it is certainly contingent o~ getting the power, not to mention for providing the homeowner with a secure stable priced energy source. I know, Mr. Speaker, it is hard for people to listen to the truth but,you know, we are doing very good. We are getting there. As of today there is in excess 111/..R.,

December 2, 1981 Tape No. 3974 NM - 1 MR. WOODROW: of 5,300 megawatts of energy running into the ocean every day, unused, the equivalent of another 60 million tons of oil a year that could be used to benefit Canada, running away due to federal government inaction. Mr. Speaker, I am hearing Ottawa bashing. My goodness, Mr. Speaker, what are we going to do? Are we just going to give everything awayr If our Premier just went up and said, "Okay, we will take what you offer us." I feel sure if the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Stirling) was the Premier of this Province today, I am sure he would want to get a good deal for his Province. AN HON. MEMBER: That will never happen. MR. WOODROW: I know it will never happen but,by the same token,I think that our Premier is admired today all over this Province for the continual fight he is putting up AN HON. MEMBER: All over Canada too. MR. WOODROW: All over Canada, absolutely to get a better deal for his Province. AN HON. MEMBER: All over the world. MR. WOODROW: It is obvious, Mr. Speaker that there will not be any movement from the Province of Quebec. To quote Premi:r.

Ievesque-parle franltais Hr. SPeaker ,en anglais-" If we were robbed in 1927, by God it was only simple justice to get some of our own back by getting the lowest possible price for their power." Indeed,what kind of negotiation can we expect from a Premier who hints the possibility of sabotage7 He already hinted that he would sabotage the wires,or the power going through Quebec. Should the hydro power move through Quebec - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . 1 f! 4 R q

December 2, 1981 Tape No. 3974 NM - 2 MR. WOODROW: Yes, Mr. Speaker, real compromise and co-operation. That is some co-operation. Given such intransigence vn the part of Quebec, and their obvious indifference to any settlement, Ottawa has the responsibility to remind Quebec that this is a country, not a string of independent nations, and to use its authority to give our Province a transmission corridor for its power~ And this is where we all can unite together. By God, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to see the people of this Province down the road starved or anything else.

I am sure all members of this House want to see a good deal given them, and on this particular issue why can we not join together and be as one voice going up to the people in Ottawa? _, .. We will not continue to be held up for ransom. Markets are available in the New England States, and other places. Revenues are desperately needed. 120 million barrels of oil a year continue to flow away unused - wasted, Mr. Speaker. I say it is a national disgrace. No where else in the world would it be tolerated. This message has filter- ed out from one end of this country to the other, yet the inaction continues.

The federal draft bill is uncertain, to say the least. It may not be submitted to the House of Commons for some time and in its present form simply does not go far enough. Well,in fact, Mr. Speaker, I think here is a place where we could, especially the members of the Opposition, talk with the hon. Mr. Rompkey. He is one of the Cabinet ministers. In fact,with all the members - M..'R.. FLIGHT: He is a good man. MR. WOODROW: Absolutely. I travelled with him recently to Ottawa. I am not saying there is anything wrong with him.

But here is,in fact, where he can be very effective in helping this bill get through the House as quickly as possible. 1 ;: 4 M I

~· December 2, 1981 Tap~ No. 3974 NM - 3 MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, we will continue to press for an eqliitable solution. It is too important to the future of this Province to simply rely on the good will of others. We have started to take the initiative and I look forward to unanimous support for this resolution, which is in the interest of all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. Mr. Speaker, I have said just about all r wanted to say. I am delighted to have had the opportunity - MR. FLIGHT: MR. WOODROW: words. By leave. By leave. No. No. - to have a few MR.

SPEAKER (Baird): Order, please~ Th~ hon. member for Bay of Islands has the floor. MR. WOODROW: I have sai¢1. before, Mr. Speaker, I will say it again, I will keep on saying it, I think that 1 i! IJ~t:

.. ~­/ December 2, 1981 Tape 3975 EC - 1 MR. WOODROW: there are certain things, you know, in a Province, where all of us have to unite together. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WOODROW: We have to lay partisan politics aside - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WOODROW: - and unite to work in the interests of the people of our Province. That, to my mind, is what politics is all about, in fact, it ~s trying to help people. At least, that is my impression of it, and I shall continue to use my - MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Is the hon. member cluing up his speech? SOHE HON. MEMBERS: By leave. By leave. MR.

WOODROW: Well, I would say to that, Mr. Speaker, one time when Peter was talking to Christ he said, "Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life." SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. WOODROW: I do not think there is much to go to. MR. STIRLING: (Inaudible) to us. MR. WOODROW: If that is the end of it - it is not the end. Mr. Speaker, I would like to say to the Leader of the Opposition that I do not think that this resolution is any joke, and I wish sometimes, Mr. Speaker, that we had television in this House so then the people would really see what is going on here. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

WOODROW: Well, it probably is. In any case, Mr. Speaker, I thank you and I hope that this resolution will be unanimous. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: A good speech, 'Luke'! 1 n L. R ~-

December 2, 1981 Tape 3975 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : The hon. the member for Carbonear. SOME HON, MEHBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, we thank the hon. the member for Bay of Islands district for his usual good, liberal-minded, open-minded speech. He always makes a very significant contribution to the arguments of our side of the House, in fact. I would like to point out, Hr.

Speaker, before I get into the substanc "e of my few remarks, that consistently since this debate has started, except for when the Premier spoke, there have been more members from the Opposition side of the House in the House than on the government side, and if that then is the importance, or if that reflects or indicates the importance with which the government views this resolution of one of its own members, then certainly we here on the Opposition side have nothing to be coy about in our remarks, I do not know, Mr. Speaker, where the bastion of intellectualism is, namely, the Prel!)ier.

He spoke for 'ten or fifteen minutes and then gallivanted out of the House as quickly as he could go, came in with some specious, spurious remarks about a period of history that I cannot recall. I read about it occasionally in history books. I was not very old at the time, I believe I was in kindergarten or Grade I or something like that, as were most of the members of this new Liberal Party, which presently happens to be in Opposition but will not be for that much longer if the Premier of this Province continues to convey through this hen.

House the type of pseudo intellectualism that he has purveyed here this afternoon. He talked about, for instance - and I have no wish, Mr. Speaker, to defend the Smallwood L,u.,'17 1 "I , -

December 2, 1981 Tape 3975 EC .,.. 3 MR. MOORES: years in this Province, in fact, I cannot be identified with it so why should I wish to identify with it any more than with the Squires years or the Alderdice years or the Puddester years? ' 1f1~RQ

December 2, 1981 Tape 3976 PK - 1 MR. MOORES: What I would hope to point out though, Mr. Speaker, is that in the Premier's usual zeal to convey insignificant points to mislead and deceive again by establishing some theme, a red -herring theme in his speech, he failed to really understand ,when he was talking about rubber plants and chocolate factories and that ty~e of thing, he really failed to understand what the Liberal administration of the time was, in fact, involved in.

And very simply what they had done was taken a look at the marketing system of canada upon their entry into Confederation,and tried to offset the consumption of the Newfoundland consumer-pardon the pun­ the consumption by the Newfoundland consumer by the secondary manufacturing provinces of Ontario and Quebec. And Smallwood failed to do that because he did not realize that these powers of capitalism that had been established for hundreds of years in canada , just could ·not be overpowered by a small province with a generally unimportant economic policy. But at least, Mr.

Speaker, the Smallwood years provided us with something tangible. Whether it was fail~re or success, it was something tangible that we can look at today,that we can evaluate and analyze, arid that,in fact, we can learn from. Now in the eight years of Tory administration in this Province,first under Frank Moores, the Machiavelli of all time in Newfoundland politics, and now under the Peckford adrninistration,we have seen no action whatsoever.

You cannot learn anything from them except that you can perhaps be successful in doing a lot of talking but actually doing nothing in reality, successful in the sense that for some reason or other I cannot understand why they continue to get re-elec~ed. An objective assessment, not a political assessment but an objective assessment of the way that this PC administration .in eight years has handled the hydro development of this Province, will prove to you, Mr. Speaker, that they have done nothing but 1 n i_L M n

•'C 'i• December 2, 1981 Tape 3976 PK - 2 MR. MOORES: disrupt the orderly development of hydro power in this Province by dragging their heels continuously. And I spoke just a few days ago on this. that in 1972,when Moores came to power in this Province,the development of the Lower Churchill was estimated to be $.7 billion , roughly $700 million or thereabout.

And at the same time as Moores failed to take action on the Lower Churchill development,Crosbie and Moores,who were involved in a vedetta against certain members of the Smallwood regime such as Shaheen and Doyle etc., spent, spent $750 million buying out BRINCO, and destroying the Linerboard mill in Stephenvil~e. How does one rationalize that, Mr. Speaker? Never mind the politics of the situation, look at it perhaps as a student would look at it going to a library at Memorial University,andtaking a book and going through the various events that eccurred in the day.

How does a student of history rationalize that on the one hand the Government of Newfoundland failed to take any positive steps in developin~ hydro power in this Province,and simultaneously spent the equivalent of what it could cost to develop that ' hydro power in takeovers, superfluous and reduntant takeovers of existing power situations or industries. And the Premier has the gallto get up 1f1L..Qn

~:r 'I December 2,1981 Tape No. 3977 ah-1 MR. MOORES: In this House, in this Province today and talk about chocolate factories and rubber plants the whole of which, the whole loss of which, financial loss to this Province was considered peanuts. And even though it failed it was an exercise well intended, an economic policy that was on a good course but eventually became a failure, ran aground because of extraneous factors, by the way, not because of internal ones. Even"the Valdmanis affair could not be considered to be that det~imental to the policy itself. MR.J.CARTER: Let us hear it for Valdmanis. All stand.

MR. MOORES: What has it cost, Mr. Speaker? The hen. member for St. John's North (J.Carter)asked what it cost, the Smallwood years. I do not know. You were here. You were a member of the House at the time. I was not here. MR.FLIGHT: You propped up Frank Moores for a few years,to0,when he was costing the Province a few dollars. MR. MOORES: I was not here.

I think there are two or three of the eighteen of us over here who were here at the time and even then my friend from the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.Roberts) and my friend from Twillingate (Mr.W.Rowe) were only involved for a few years, three or four or five of twenty-five or thereabout. I fail to see the point of that criticism which tends to be repeated far to often in the year 1981. MR. ROBERTS: Because they have nothing better to think about. MR. ?-!OORES: That is correct. MR.. ROBERTS : We want to hear what Alderdice did to drive the country bankrupt in 1932. MR. MOORES: Sure. 1 n ~ q .,

;'!'" December 2,1981 Tape No. 3977 ah-2 MR. ROBERTS: The last Tory government we had. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: The Minister of Forestry (Mr.Power) might be able to comment on that. MR.ROBERTS: (inaudible) memoirs has John Carter's name as alive and living. MR.SPEM:ER ·(Baird): Order, please! I would suggest we are beginning to stray a little bit. MR.

MOORES: It is though, Mr.Speaker, I might add,an experience to sit here and see how members opposite, particularly those who were Liberals for many years in the Smallwood regime,including the Premier by the way- I worked with the Premier in 1969 when he supported John Crosbie for the leadership of the Liberal party._ MR: ROBERTS: When it was convenient to he a Liberal. When it was convenient for him. MR. MOORES: That is right.

And there are a few others,! might add,on the other side of the House, including the member for Harbour Grace (Mr.Young), the member for Gander (Mrs Newhook) • The member for Gander was a good Liberal for many, many years. MR.· ROBERTS : The member for Harbour Grace (Mr. Young} was on the executive over,there was he not? MR. MOORES: That is true. But the point is, t.he point that I am trying to make in this conversation is all that is irrelevant, Mr. Speaker, where people were or were not twenty years ago.

I am alive and well in this House now and hoping to make some type of contribution as are a number of others here. I am not concerned with the member for St. John's North (J.Carter}, with what dribble and old venom he throws out at Smallwood. I mean,-how does that concern me? What does it do for education in this Province today? What does it do for the development of hydro power in this Province today? What does it do to 1;ll..Q'1

? December 2,1981 Tape No. 3977 ah-3 MR. MOORES: help increase the amount of security for our children and our children's children? What kind of old dribble and nonsense do we have to put up with? And I should have known,or at least the Premier should have known better than to get up in this House today and use it. I mean,does the member for Harbour Main - Bell Island (Mr. Doyle) - how can you respect the man - AN HON.MEMBER: Oh he writes his Premier's speech. MR. MOORES: - when he gets up in the House and uses that kind of defence or that kind of support for your own resolution?

I mean,all that it indicated to me, all that it indicated to me,a person who is here on this side of the House listening to the first minister of this Province try to espouse at least some logical explanation for the development of hydro power, it just indicates to me how stupid the man is; he has the mind of a pedagogue rather than one of a statesman. And that is unfortunate. Because it is not only the member for Carbonear who has realized that,it is the people of Canada who have seen what is going on in this confrontation attitude with Ottawa. I mean, the man comes down here, the Premier of 1Dliq~

December 2, 1981 Tape NO. 3978 EL - 1 MR. MOORES: Newfoundland comes down here - just stop for a minute and see what kind of an ego problem this is, how ego-maniacal this is, for a premier to come down to Newfoundland and take pats on the back from his colleagues,and from anyone else who was foolish enough to give it to him,for the creation of the agreements that led to the constitutional package we have now.

And Macleans magazine -I had them in front of me the other day- in Macleans magazine, the Toronto Globe and Mail and the Montreal paper, the Star 4 • •••• •• • • or whatever it is, went down through it detailed event by event and do you know what they finally realized? MR. FLIGHT: You are being led by an ego- maniac~ my son. MR. MOORES: They finally realized that Premier Peckford was the next premier likely to go to the polls. MR. FLIGHT: Sure. You are being led by an e9o-maniac. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh: -- -- - - -- • * • 4 • ~ -· MR. MOORES: No, it does not matter - listen - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR.

FLIGHT: You are being led by an ego-maniac. MR. MOORES: That is the one. You just read through it. But it does not matter, Mr. Speaker, I do not want to argue the point. I mean, you people can con- tinue to believe what you want to believe, it is entirely up to you. What I am tryir.g to point out to you is that you are just as silly as the Premier to believe it when we all know that there were some very important steps in that constitutional crisis that were solved by civil servants, tha~ is to say, people who were backing up the First Ministers. 1 11 ' - I I• U '-1.

... December 2, 1981 Tape No. 3978 EL - 2 AN RON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MOORES: No, I rephrase that. McMurtry of Ontario and Romanow of Saskatchewan were not civil servants in the strict sense of the word,but in this case they were support people to the First Ministers. And it is just amazing Mr.

Speaker, how the Premier of this Province could get up today on such a significant, in my opinion, significant and important resolution, brought before this House by one of his own colleagues, in fact his Parliamentary Assistant, get up and defend it and/or support it by !eferring to 1955 or 1957, and then gave all the losses of the Smallwood years without giving the other half of the story. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. For every school that was built, for every hospital, every road, etc., etc., for every function there is a disfunction. That is logical.

If you do not do anything,how can you do anything wrong? MR. FLIGHT: Listen to the Common Room. Listen to the Government common Room. You can tell how serious they are taking this debate. MR. MOORES: Just amazing. MR. FLIGHT: Who is passing the wine now? I wonder. MR. MOORES: The Premier of this Province will go down in history~ Some student from Memorial in fifty years will say he was the Albert Camus of Newfoundland politics - SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. ROBERTS~ MR. MOORES: matters. SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. FLIGHT: Oh, oh!

What have you got against Camus? - he dealt only with existentialist Oh, oh: That is right. 1f!t,_qr;

December 2, 1981 Tape No . 3978 EL - 3 MR. ROBERTS: I think you are being very hard on camus 1 he is not here to defen d himself. SOME BON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MOORES : And that is the Premier, the great existentialist Premier. He created nothing of sub ­ stance MR. R0}3ERTS: Intellectual incestuosity is what the Premier - SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh ! MR . MOORES: Be create4 nothing of substance. He talk2d a.nd be tallc.ed a.nd he talked until none could bother to listen. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Mr. Speaker , thank you very much. Rear,hear ! 1 0 1.4~

December 2, 1981 Tape No. 3979 SD - 1 MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, after that vicious personal attack I will try and raise the tone of debate a little. The resolution has been put on the Order Paper by my colleague, 'Mr. Doyle', and since it is about hydro power it is unfortunate that any discussion of hydro power by its very nature has to be somewhat technical. We are dealing with almost another lanquage, we have units of power, amps, ohms, volts, gauss. These are a.ll units that are taken after the names of individuals who have done the pioneer work in the field of electricity.

And I thought perhaps for convenience,it might be usP~ul to extend that idea into the realm of politics and we· could perhaps have one Lusr • the unit of foolishnessi one Stirling - the unit of vulgarity; one Tulk - the unit of lowness; one Bennett - a unit of sloth; one Roberts - a unit of hate; I can go on and on and on. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. CARTER: I suggest to ~s that the list is only as short as their imagination. Our Premier certainly rubbed a nerve in his magnificent and very carefully researched speech.that he gave 1

part last Wednesday and the other part this Wednesday. And I certainly would like to compliment him, but at the same time I would like to point out that I thought the Opposition was very low in its unwillingness to hear him out· Wfle.reas he had gone through a great deal of trouble to prepare a very comprehensive document~because of spurious points of order he was unable to finish it. However, there is enough material there for several speeches, so I am sure the text of it will be heard not only in this House but printed outside. I would recommend that hon. gentlemen read it. AN HON. MEMBER: (.Inaudible) MR.

CARTER: Yes, it should certainly be sent around. You know, as I say, he certainly rubbed a nerve,because the loun sneech from the member for Terra 'Nova (.Mr. Lush) whose name escapes me for the moment - the man who never visits his 1:!4~7

December 2, 1981 Tape No. 3979 SD - 2 MR. CARTER: district - he certainly shouted and roared and one could not get a word - even his own colleagues apparently could not get a word in edgewise. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER (Baird): MR. CARTER: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: the members. MR. CARTER: This resolution - A quorum call, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! We have a quorum call. Do we have a quorum? No quorum. I will ask the Clerk to count We have a quorum. The hon. member for St. John's North. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The only unfortun~te thing about this resolution is that when I looked at it I could not help but see that it was introduced by my colleague,' Mr. Doyle'. Anc'l whenever I see the name'Doyle'I do not think of my colleague; 'Norman Doyle'- MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! You refer to members by their district rather than by name. MR. CARTER: ·I am sorry, out of order. I think of the industrialist, the carpetbagger, John C. Doyle. And,of course, I only wish that we had a chance to re-negotiate some of the giveaways we gave him.

We could re-negotiate here in Newfoundland or New York, but apparently he is not able to visit that part of the world. In fact - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CARTER: - if you look at a map of the world and use a colouring pencil, there are not too many parts of the world he can visi