First Session - Thirty-Third Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 35 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Myma A. Phi/lips Speaker VOL. XXXIV No. 56A - 2:00 p.m., TUESDAY, 29 JULY, 1986. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Third Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ASHTON, Sieve BAKER, Clarence BIRT, Charles T. BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARSTAIRS, Sharon CONNERY, Edward J. COWAN, Hon. Jay CUMMINGS, J. Glen DERKACH, Len DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent L. DOER, Hon. Gary DOLIN, Marty DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert DUCHARME, Gerry ENNS, Harry J. ERNST, Jim EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. FILMON, Gary FINDLAY, Glen M. HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Hon. Harry M. HARAPIAK, Hon. Leonard E. HARPER, Hon. Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA,Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton McCRAE, James C. MERCIER, Q.C., G.M.J. (Gerry) MITCHELSON, Bonnie NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte L. ORCHARD, Donald W. PANKRATZ, Helmut PARASIUK, Wilson PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Hon. Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John ROCAN, C. Denis ROCH, Gilles (Gil) SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Q.C., Hon. Victor SCOTT, Don SMITH, Harvey SMITH, Hon. Muriel STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill WALDING, D. James WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Hon.

Judy CONSTITUENCY Thompson Lac du Bonnet Fort Garry Min nedosa Rhineland Gimli River Heights Portage la Prairie Churchill Ste. Rose Roblin-Rus sell St. Boniface Concordia Kildonan Arthur Emerson Aiel Lakeside Charleswood Brandon East Tuxedo Vir den Kirkfield Park The Pas Swan River Rupertsland Logan Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson St. James Elmwood Morris Brandon West St. Norbert River East Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina La Verendrye Transcona Selkirk Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Springfield Burrows Rossmere lnkster Ellice Osborne Flin Flon lnterlake St. Vital St.

Johns PARTY NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 29 July, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: lt is my duty to inform the House that Madam Speaker is unavoidably absent and would ask the Deputy Speaker to take the Chair, in accordance with the Statutes. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Deputy Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, C. Santos: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AN D SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Kildonan. MR. M. DOLIN: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Thompson, that the Report of the Commit tee be received. MOTION pr esented and carr ied. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tablin g of Reports . . Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills . . . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Before we go to Oral Questions, I would like to make an annou ncement to introduce some students.

The Honourable Elijah Harper wishes to acknowledge the presence of students from the Business Learning � Opportunities Program for Native Youth in the gallery. ' These students are from the different reserves in six­ month business development courses. ORAL QUESTIONS MTX MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My question is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System.

I wonder if the Minister can ind icate whether he has any in formation of telecommunications equipment, which may have been landed in Canada by MTX after being sent to Saudi Arabia by an American supplier of MTX and that is currently stored in a bonded , warehouse in Winnipeg. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I thank the honourable member for the question. No, I have no knowledge of the matter that is contained in the question and I will take it as notice and give advice to the Hous e when I have that information. MR. G.

FILMON: If it may be helpful to the Minister, I would ask that he ask specifically about equipment which may be held at Locher Evers International Limited at 11 5 Paramount Road, having been supplied by Timeplex International Limited. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My question is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System. Can the Minister ind icate whether, since its inception in Saudi Arabia, MTX employees or MTX employees seconded to SADL, the 50 percent subsidiary, have ever been arrested by Saudi religious police? MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I thank the honourable member for the question. I, as a result, of the stories that are currently being reported on in the press, have asked for full details and I haven't received those. I assume that I will have all of the background details of any involvements that have occurr ed and I'll be able to provide that information at committee when we're there. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, would the Minister responsible for MTS as well inquire of the MTX subsidiary the nature of charges, if any, and the nature of penalties, if any, imposed on those employees? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Capital Intentions for Man.­ Stats Canada MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Kildonan. MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance. Stats Canada today reported a healthy improvement in the capital investment intentions for 1986 in the revisions for Canada from 4.6 percent to 5.6 percent, which I think bodes very well for this country.

I'm wondering if the Minister can advise us as to what the figures are for Manitoba. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Minister of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I thank the member for his question. 2352

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 I thought it would be of interest to all members and Manitobans in general to learn of the improvement with respect to how Stats Canada views capital intentions for Manitoba. I am pleased to tell the mem bers and to tell Manitobans that Stats Canada has, as of tod ay, announced a revision upwards in the capital intentions for Manitoba.

They now ind icate that Manitoba is expected to have a 10.3 percent increase in total capital investment this year, which is an improvement over what they indica ted earlier this year in their forecast in Janua ry, an improvement from 8.9 percent. lt's the second highest, I might add, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in all of Canada. MR. M. DOLIN: lt is my understanding that 4.8 percent increase is government sector increase for Canada. Do these figures hold true for Manitoba? Will the Minis ter advise what the relationship is between private and public sector investment relating to this increase? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Again, I thank the member for that question. Interestingly enough, the intentions with respect to the private sector across Canada have been revised downward. The Canadian average has been revised downward from 7.4 percent to 7 percent for all Canada. However, in Manitoba, the revision has been upward with respect to private sector investment from 8.8 percent to 10.9 percent for Manitoba. So, contrary to what members opposite say with respect to private sector investment in Manitoba, it's obvious, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that the private sector is showing its concern with respect to Manitoba, and showing that it is provi din g more investment in Manitoba. We had the very positive announcement yesterday in Carberry with respect to Carnation Food. These figures here prove that the private sector has a great deal of confidence in the future of the Province of Manitoba, and is indicating so by their increased investment activity in Manitoba. Spillway, opening of re flooding in Sask. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, my question is to either the Minis ter responsible for Hydro or the Minister of Natural Resources. Resulting from conversa tions that I've had with residents in the Grand Rapids area in the northern part of Lake Winnipeg, there is growing concern, Mr. Deputy Speaker, about the possible impact of Manitoba Hydro having to use the spillway for the first time in man y, many years to accommodate the swollen flood waters of the North Saskatchewan River. First of all, my question is: Has a decision been made to open a spillway and allow some of this surplus water to be released that way? MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Minister of Trade and Technology. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I'm not sure that the decision has been made to actually use the spillway but Hydro is in the process of attempting to clear the spillway in case it must be used. I understand that the approximate date is about the middle of August. Spillway, opening of - effect on fishing MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, it's against House rules to impute any motives to anybody and to do nothing other than accept the Minister's word but I'm apprised and I ask the Minister of Natural Resources that the fishermen in that area have been allowed to use their fall licencings for the catching of commercial fish. lt would seem to implicate that the fish biologists, at least, have made the decision that the fisheries could be seriously disrupted, which would seem to imply the decision has been made to use the spillway. HON. V.

SCHROEDER: As I've ind icated, there's been a decision taken to attempt to clear the dry river bed in case we need the spillway in order to protect the area. There has not been a decision taken to use the spillway, at least I'm not aware of that decision. In terms of the fishermen, certainly if there are any damages - and there has been some indication that there could be dama ges if that bed is used - then certainly I would expect that Hydro would be responsible for those damages. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I direct a specific question to the Minister of Natural Resources.

Has the Minister and his department authorized the fishermen in that area to use their fall licencing at this time? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. L. HARAPIUK: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am not aware that a decision of that nature has been made but I will check with departmental staff and report to this Cham ber. Limestone project - hiring of non-union members MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, another question to the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro.

Some time ago, I asked the Min ister with respect to the hiring practices on the Limestone Project. lt would now appear that only unioniz ed workers are allowed to apply for a job. The stats that I have for June 5 ind icate that as few as three or four, and only in specialized cases have there been non-union workers allowed to apply for work at Limestone. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, that clearly indi cates that it is contrary to the policy that this government has put out in all their brochures with respect to job opportunities at Limestone which says clearly that the collective agreement also requires that all workers employed on the construction project become mem bers of appropriate unions within 30 days of being hired. Mr. Deputy Speaker, people like Roy Svenson, whom I raised ... MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Does the member have a question? 2353

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 MR. H. ENNS: . . . are being asked to put up $300 or $400 union fees in cash in advance before they can get a job. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want the Minister to confirm whether or not that is the practice or whether Manitobans have an opportunity of getting a job at Lime stone and then complying with the collective agreement and perhaps joining whatever appropriate union that has to be; but not being precluded from job applications simply because they don't have a union membership. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Minister of Trade and Technology. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

The procedure as ind icated, has been that first preference on that site is for northern Natives who are qualified. The second preference is for Northerners. After that it gets down to the same kinds of preferences, as I understand it, as have traditionally been the case since the Kettle Rapids development. There have been longstanding agreements with the trade unions involved. I'm not aware of any specific changes we have made to that, other than the Native Northern Hiring Clause which the Leader of the Opposition said he would change during the election campaign.

That's the only change I'm aware of. lt is a change we think is very important. lt has ensured the hiring of hundr eds of northern Native Manitobans and we're pleased to see that is happening. We're doing our best to make sure more of it will happen. MR. H. ENNS: Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Minis ter responsible for Hydro has studiously avoided from answering a fairly straightforward question. Can a Manitoban, like Mr. Roy Svenson, from Moosehorn, Manitoba apply for a job at Limestone without being a member of a union at this time? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I have ind icated I'm not aware of any changes with respect to hiring, other than those I've enunciated, since the Roblin days in terms of the hiring of people to go on to that particular site. I said I will - {Interjection) - Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the - (Interjection)- We've got this member here, the Native Affairs critic for the Conservative Party, asking for a Western Manitoba preference for potash.

That's the kind of nonsense we're getting from this group, who just a few months ago, were saying in this House it wasn't true they opposed the Native northern hiring policies during the election campaign when they had candidates in the North and, inde ed, their leader opposing our policy during the election campaign. lt is working. The Leader of the Opposition says it isn't working; it is working to a far greater extent than it ever has in the past We have exponentially more northern Natives working there, and we're very proud of that fact. MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside with a supplementary. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, to the same Minis ter. This same Mr. Svenson had no difficulty in getting jobs at Kettle, at Long Spruce in the other years under the same terms of the agreement. lt is under this government that is paying its debt off to organized labour that funds this party with hundreds of thousands of dollars that gets away with putting this kind of propaganda which allows Manitoba to think they can get a job, and then is paying off to their political cronies, organized labour. That's what's happening here, Mr.

Deputy Speaker. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I'm pleased to see we have the energy critic very clearly on the record now as saying that what they want is everything to be as in the past. Let's have only those people who worked in the past on that site working there now. Those people should have first call on the job; to heck with the northern Natives.

They're saying, let's have all those people back here, all those people who had the advantage of that employment, the experience, the payroll and that sort of thing, all of that stuff should be just like in the past and forget the northern Natives; that's what he's saying. Manitoba Hydro - Native employment re Limestone MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would ask the Minister of Labour to comment on the fact that the recent award presented to Manitoba Hydro for its Native hiring practice has been denounced as a sham and an insult to Native groups.

Is that the kind of rewards that this government and this Department of Labour is proud of? HON. V. SCHROEDER: In fact it was Manitoba Natives who suggested the award to that group and it was Manitoba Natives who applauded that award and it was for Manitoba Natives that we have been going ahead with the kinds of policies we are into right now. The Conservatives have not recognized the existence of the award until today.

You do have one or two people who say they're not sure we should have the award just yet or that we deserve it, because we haven't done enough; but we have at least three times, four times as many northern Natives working on that site than we have ever had at a hydro-electric site in the past and that demons trates the acco mpli shme nts of this government to date and we have said, we are doing our best to improve. Manitoba Beef Commission - deadline extension re reduction in support levels MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

My question is to the Minister of Agriculture. On July 3, the letter sent by the Manitoba Beef Comm ission to all of its contract holders required producers to make a choice for voluntary reduction in support price. The letter contained figures only on the premiums a producer would be paying and did not contain the 2354

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 corresponding support levels that would apply to each premium. In the past 24 hours I've had a phone call from an ag rep, an auction mart manager, two Manitoba Cattle Producers Association directors and they're all saying that the farmers are now starting to ask a lot of questions as the deadline of July 31 approaches. They are confused; they do not have enough information to make the decision and they're having extreme difficulty in making the proper price comparisions. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, my question to the Minister of Agriculture is: Is he now prepared to help farmers make this impo rtant decision by giving them an opportunity for more time to make the decision by extending the deadline from July 31 to at least August 15 and, preferably, August 25? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I thank the honourable member for the question.

I believe that there are, no doubt, producers who wish to seek advice and information about what choices they have and calculations and they are contacting our staff; and I know that the Beef Commission is monitoring the situation. But the accuracy of what the honourable mem ber ind icates about confusion, the confusion I would suggest, rests in the mind of my honourable friend. The letter clearly ind icates - and I don't have the letter in front of me - that the reduction in premiums - (Interjection) - Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Honourable Member for Fort Garry says, is that what I think of farmers. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, farmers are much more intelligent than some members on the opposite side.

The letter that the member makes reference to clearly ind icates that the reduction in support is $7.50 per cwt across the board and the farmers can clearly make those calculations for - and I approximate the figures and I'm going from memory - that for an approximate reduction from 5 percent to 8 percent in support level, depending on which level the farmer is in, with a corresponding reduction from 25 percent to 33 percent in the premiums is what the decision is all about, or incr ease the premiums as is shown on the accompanying column.

There is no confusion that exists, but there's no doubt that farmers may want some assistance to see what the impact of those calculations may be on their own returns. The Commission is monitoring that situation. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Mr. Deputy Speaker, given the fact the Minister has mentioned the $7.50 reduction, from what I will ask him? There's no mention in the letter about reduction from what and that's what the farmers are asking.

If the Commission can justify the position they've taken and the decision they've made, is he prepared to ask them to have a round of meetings in rural Manitoba to explain it to the contract holders? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I understand the Commission is dealing with the farmers as the calls come in.

There are calls that are in and, as I've ind icated, the Comm ission is monitoring the situation and if there is need to extend the time or create another window in terms of opportunity for farmers who fail to meet the deadline, that decision the Commission is prepared to do, but at the present time, the replies are coming in and decisions 1are being made. I will ask the Commission to ascertain how many replies have come in; how many decisions have been made; and to see whether or not there should be an extension in the deadline. MR. G.

FINDLAY: Is the Mini ster prepared to ask the Commission to put together a flow sheet of all the different price comparisons for different market prices so the producer can project into the future what his potential income will be, given one alternative versus the other. Further to that will the Mini ster tell us when he's prepared to make this decision about extension of the deadline? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Deputy Spe aker, making projections on beef prices is one thing that virtually no economist anywhere has been able to project.

In fact, we would not be facing the kind of deficit in the program we have today had some of the projections that were being made come true. They have not been, that's been the di fficu lty in trying to project what the marketplace would do when, in fact, the marketplace has not been able to return the kind of returns that producers need. As a result, those kinds of support prices have had to be made by the government through the Commission. There is no doubt that clearly the support level at which the choice is being made is, as of today, support level.

Whatever the support level is at the Comm ission to date, the September 1 change will be $7.50 per cwt less than today's support level. There is no magic in the calculation the member finds so confusing, Mr. Deputy Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Virden on a final supplementary. MR. G. FINDLAY: Yes, a final supplementary. I'd like the Minister to inform us as to how many calls the Beef Comm ission has had on thi s very question? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I will check with the Commission and provide the information for my honourable friend, as well as get the information as to how many have already returned their questionnaires and made their decision. I know, as of the beginning of last week, several hundred had already returned their letters, as of last week, but I don't have the up-to-date figures today, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Venture Capital Program - status of company called Airflow MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage. MR. E. CONNERY: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. 2355

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 To the Minister of Business Development, Venture Capital Company No. 65066 has been out of business for over a year. lt had invested in a company called Air Flow which went into receivership. On July 14, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Min ister, in Estimates, cited Air Flow as a success. Is that department totally confused and incompetent, or did the Minister misinform the commit tee? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Tourism. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I would have to say to the member opposite I'll have to review Hansard and see what it says.

Certainly, there is no intention to either mislead or - I can't read from here even with my glasses. There's certainly no intention to mislead or misinform. As I recall, we were able and prepared to provide more information on Venture Capital Programs on those � people who had invested, and the companies they had ' invested in, than had ever been provided in this House before due to regulation changes we had made which allowed full disclosure.

So, I made that information and a list of all of the companies to the member of the Opposition and to the critic, and would certainly regret if there was a slip in communic ating during Estim ates, but I will attempt to clear that up as quickly as possible. MR. E. CONNERY: Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in the article, Mr. Don Roy, president of the new firm, said that other investments caused the financial difficulty of Air Flow. Does the department do an adequate job of investigating that public money is properly invested, or was the money used for purposes other than what it was intentionally designed to? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Mr. Deputy Speaker, yes, certainly we do what I believe is an adequate check before we approve the companies. When you're working in a program which is designed to help give capital money to businesses that might not ordinarily be able to get it, then clearly you are in a higher risk category than � normal business ventures; that's the way the program is designed. So, we take all the precautions necessary to do the checking on the companies prior to funding. I mentioned the regulations that we brought in, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, and, of course, one of the reasons for bringing in the regulation changes was to improve the monitoring and control after the programs have been funded; that we wanted to make sure we had all of the controls to check the books whenever we wanted; to check the companies to get all the information that we needed to make sure .that, after the awards were made, they conformed to the full nature of the award. MR. E. CONNERY: Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it's quite obvious the department is not competent as it wasn't able to set up the proper guidelines.

There were two companies which were being investigated . Venture Capital Program - review of companies re fraud MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Does the member have a supplementary question? MR. E. CONNERY: Yes. There were two companies being investigated for fraud. Have these investigations been concluded? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Deputy Speaker, there are presently two companies that are in the process of being reviewed by the Attorney-General's Department and I expect to have information on those two companies in the fairly near future.

I do think it's important to say though that while the member is raising some questions and concerns about a couple of the companies that have had some problems and difficulties, that the record of the Venture Capital Program, in general, has been excellent. lt has generated $14 million of investment in the Province of Manitoba - 9 million of it private investment in the companies. lt has created 1, 000 jobs, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, which would not have been created if we had not had those companies. lt has 67 Venture Capitals and somewhere in the range of 37 or 38 businesses which are being supported by this program. Versatile Manufacturing Co.­ work sharing MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Industry and Techno logy. Could he inform the House or confirm that the office staff of Versatile have gone on a work-sharing arrangement with reduced hours? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Mini ster of Trade and Techno logy. "' HON. V.

SCHROEDER: I'm not exactly sure as to the current situa tio n . There have been a num ber of reductions in staff. I'll take it as notice and get back to you. Versatile Manufacturing Co.­ John Deere's proposal to buy MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have a question for the Premier. Over a month ago, he indic ated he had written to the president of John Deere to express the concern of the province in the hope they would continue with the acquisition of Versatile. Could the Premier ind icate whether he has received a response to that letter and what the position of John Deere is? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the John Deere Company has informed the government they are still interested in the acquisition�As-the member knows, they're not able to complete the acquisition because of Unit ed States laws. We're still waiting for the Justice Department to determine that an adequate search has been done, but John Deere has ind icated to the Government of Manitoba they are still interested in purchasing, but they've also made it very clear it would be under new terms and conditions, given the changed circumstances. 2356

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Deputy Speaker , is the Minister indicating that John Deere wish to renegotiate all the details of the original agreement with Versatile in the event the Department of Justice approves the transaction? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Qeputy Speaker, the original agreement had a termination date at the end of June of 1986. There is now no agreement. That was why we were hoping the Justice Department would move back. In the middle of June, John Deere was telling us, in writing, that they were certainly prepared to take it on . Yes, that's a possibility.

That's a very serious possibility, and the Justice Department could have told them three months before that, in March, that they had 90 days, and they could have done their search and we could have had the company sold. It was the American rules. After we hear all these things about Investment Canada and FIRA, it was American rules that prevented that original sale from being completed, not anything here in Canada, not anything with Investment Canada or indeed under the predecessor, FIRA, but rather the United States . Homosexuals - legislation re discrimination MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for St. Norbert. MR.

G. MERCIER: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have a new question for the Attorney-General, although I do it with some reluctance because , in response to a straightforward question yesterday, he got up and called it a "cheap, political shot ." Although people with communist backgrounds may have some difficulty accepting the democratic process . . . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Does the member have a question? MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Deputy Speaker , I ask the Attorney-General - six years ago he indicated to the constituents of Fort Rouge that he would bring in legislation to ban discrimination against homosexuals - does he intend to bring in that legislation at this Session? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney­ General. HON. R. PENNER: The Member for St. Norbert knows full well every bill that is being introduced in this Session, and he is asking the question knowing that there are no amendments to The Human Rights Act be ing introduced in this Session.

I take it that he's asking the question only in order to have provided himself a platform for the premise . MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Deputy Speaker, is the Attorney­ General waiting for someone else to announce a position before he indicates a position on this matter too? Folklorama pavilions - access for handicapped MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Culture , Heritage and Recreation.

Among the grants administered by the Minister's department is one to the Folk Arts Council who sponsor our wonderful Folklorama program . Of the 39 pavilions announced yesterday, only five are fully accessible to the handicapped through ramps and bathrooms . An additional 15 are partially acceptable , and 19 will have no participation by those who , through no fault of their own, cannot stand up for Manitoba . Will the Minister investigate and, ii necessary, provide additional funding in order for a study to be done by the Folk Arts Council which will promote this kind of accessibility? MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Minister of Culture . HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker . I'd like to thank the Member for River Heights for bringing that matter to my attention. It is certainly a matter that I will look into and talk over with the Folk Arts Council. However , it should be noted that the Folk Arts Council is an arm 's length organization to the government and, therefore, bound by decisions of its board of directors .

However, I think that there are programs and suggestions which that organization can take advantage of, and I will engage in discussions with the Folk Arts Council to find ways to ensure that all pavilions are accessible to the disabled . Folklorama pavilions - Handi- Transit for handicapped MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr. Deputy Speaker, a new question to the Department of Highways , the Minister .

The Minister, I know, is monitoring closely the new changes that have been made under The Taxi Board Act which have put Handi-Transit vehicles underneath the Taxi Board and appear, at least to date, to be limiting the amount of accessibility to the handicapped . Would he, in conjunction with the Minister of Community Services, look into the lack of accessibility of Handi­ Transit to Folklorama, and use the influence of his office to encourage them to provide that type of vehicle through that festival? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Minister of Transportation. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Deputy Speaker , I have no direct responsibility for Handi-Transit. The Minister of Urban Affairs provides the funding through appropriations to the City of Winnipeg, so that would be the appropriate place to direct that quest ion, Mr. Deputy Speaker . 2357

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 Bridge , North Selkirk HON. J. PLOHMAN: While I'm on my feet though, I would like to provide an answer to a question that was asked by the Member for Pembina last week involving lando wners affected by the Selkirk Bridge. He'd asked about settlements with the owners that were affected, and I want to ind icate to the House that eight of 13 lando wners who are directly affected by the bridge in the east approaches have had an advance payment made to them without prejudice to the final settlement. So eight have received advance payments.

There have been two final ized settlements out of the 13, and the remaind er, as well as the ones who have had advance payments, are in discussions at various stages of final ization. I also wanted to provide some further clarification with regard to the cost of the bridge for the record, Mr. Deputy Speaker. lt had been ind icated by the Member for Pembina that the final estimates were some � $1 9.6 million for the bridge. The latest estimates are J $1 8.9 million. This is for an 850-metre bridge with a 60-foot clearance.

The original estimates were - and I should ind icate this is contrary to what I believed during the Estimates. The original estimates were for 10.3 million for a 400 to 450-metre bridge, which is half the length, and only a 38-foot clearance. This is to accommodate the federal Navigable Waters Act Board's requirements, the federal dredge and sailboats in the area, that the bridge had to be higher and now is consequently twice as long.

The department was not aware of these requirements at the time they gave the initial estimate which was, as I ind icated, 10.3 million for the bridge as well as the approach roads to that bridge. Folklorama pavilions - Handi-Transit for handicapped MR. DEPU TY SPEAKER: The Mem ber for River Heights, a final supplement ary. � MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Since the Minister of Highways wasn't able to answer the question, despite interviews to the contrary in which he ind icated he really did care about handicapped transit, could I refer the question please to the Mini ster of Urban Affairs.

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. G. DOER: Mr. Deputy Speaker, as I understand the quest ion, is the Ha ndi- Transit avai lable for Folklorama in the evening? Is that the specific question, just so I have it? We do fund the Handi- Transit with the City of Winnip eg. We contribute to their funding, along with a lot of the other funding for the deficit in the public transit system in Winnipeg. I'm certainly prepared to discuss that with the City of Winnipeg, who has the , direct responsibility of admi nistering that program.

I'm sure they would be equally concerned with us in terms of that lack of service, and I'll certainly raise it with the city. Natural Resources, Dept. of - disclosure of Ombudsman's Report MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for Natural Resources. In January, the Ombudsman undertook to investigate various charges in the admi nis trativ e level in the Department of Natural Resources. Can the Min ister ind icate whether he has that report and, if so, whether he will table it? MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am in receipt of that report. I am, as well, awaiting a report from the Auditor in which some other matters that were alleged to have taken place by the Member for Emerson will be addressed. When both those reports are in, I will then be making some determination as to the appropriate means for communicating the results of both those reports. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY HOUSE BUSINESS MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. HON. J. COW AN: Yes, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, first on a matter of House Busi ness, the Committee of Public Utilities and Natural Resources completed its review so it will not be meeting on Thursday to consider M PlC. I'll have discussions with the Opposition House Leader, and inform the House accordingly as to what other committee might be held at that time or, if in fact, a standing committee may be held. I move that Mr.

Deputy Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, seconded by the Mini ster of Labou r. lt's my understanding that there is an inclination on the part of all members of the House to forego Private Members' Hour and to continue on with Estimates straight through till 5:30.

MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honour able Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Health; and the Honourable Member for Kildona n in the Chair for the Department of Education. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - J,:DUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dof.n: The committee will come to order. We are dealing with the Education Estimates, Page 51, Resolution 49, 4. Program Development Support 2358

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 Services, 4.(

a) Division Administration - the Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, I'm wondering, if we're supposed to go through this line by line, but there may be some crossing over because of such things as curriculum and that may have application in more than one spot. So, if the chairman would permit perhaps some latitude, we'll try and stick to the regular

schedule . But t~e nature of the topics discussed may involve us moving back and forth a little bit, so if the Chairman would be so kind to permit a little bit of latitude in going through this . MR. CHAIRMAN: We are renowned for our reasonableness. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know you are and I appeal to your better side; and I see I succeeded in the argument. Thank you. In the

preamble, there is reference made - am I not speaking loud enough? It says: "Addition al means are available for teacher upgrading." This is in the

preamble of

Section 4. Could the Minister advise what teaching upgrading he is referring to? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson , no, that refers to a couple of different things. No. 1, part of the quality of education initiatives incl4des the upgrading and retraining, if you will, of teachers to be consistent with the new curriculums as they are being introduced and upgraded in addition to those activities which will be part of the next year.

There are also in-service activities , the department's role in providing those support services, consultants to participate in workshops, that kind of thing. MR. C. BIRT: The reason I'm asking there is, after that phrase, "teacher upgrading or other special things , such as in-service training, instructional media, educational television," things like this, is there a specified or specific program or series of programs in the department dealing exclusively with upgrading and, if so, where would we find it? HON. J. STORIE: No, there is no specific allocation.

Obviously, within the department, within this branch, there are many different spec ialists and individuals who provide special services. Depending on the need, the requests from school divisions, we tend to respond in an ad hoc way to their requests in some respects.

Apart from our own initiatives, as I've said, the science area, the initiative that will be undertaken in terms of the upgrading for Family Life training, for Family Life teachers, support we provide through other departments, drawing in personnel, for example, the Department of Health; so we serve as a coordinating function, as well as providing specialist and consultative services directly. MR. C. BIRT: The Minister made reference to the new curriculums that are coming out .

He referred specifically to the sex education course, but is it the policy of the department, when they're developing new courses , before they 're released , that the teachers are given their upgrading as it relates to these new courses or is it done afterwards? HON. J. STORIE: I guess there's a mix . There 's an expectation that )he currjculum will be changing , but by and large the new curriculum is introduced.

There is some lead time to do some upgrading, recognizing that the changes tend to be in specific areas where we've identified or others have identified weaknesses that there's not a complete and substantive change in each of the revisions. It tends to be in specific areas where we've identified weaknesses . MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, moving onto a new area, the Minister and I and others have had a debate about tests in the department and whether or not tests should be conducted . I note there is reference to the General Education Development test. I'm wondering if the Minister could advise exactly what this is.

HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson. The GED test is something that was introduced some 10, 12, 15 years ago, something that is used by a number of different jurisdictions. Essentially what it is, is an equivalency test which allows an individual without, say, high school certificate, to prepare, write a test which gives an indication of general equivalency in terms of grade .

I believe there are between 600 and 800 individuals a year take what is called the GED test and come away with a grade equivalency rating for purposes of attendance at community colleges, at universities, or just for their own personal satisfaction . MR. C. BIRT: Are there other general proficiency or school division tests that are carried on by the department? HON. J.

STORIE: These aren 't school division tests ; these are tests that are offered by the department across Canada and , while they are I guess written in schools in most instances, I'm informed that the tests themselves are produced and written on a North American basis , so they're not unique to Manitoba but they were .introduced in Manitoba sometime in the early Seventies, I believe . MR. C. BIRT: All of that information just relates to the GED test that the Minister was referring to, I take it. Okay.

What I'm talking about is I believe there is some occasional testing done and it's on a rotational basis by the department. You do it for Mathematics, English Literature, that sort of thing. Could the Minister advise what it is? HON. J. STORIE: I believe the member is probably talking about the curriculum assessment. Really, we see that there 's a division of responsibility between school divisions, schools, teachers and the department. While schools take the prime responsibility for individual student assessment, the department has the responsibility for curriculum assessment.

Basically what that means is making sure that the objectives we set 2359

TUesday, 29 July, 1986 out for the curriculum are being achieved. In other words, if we assume that a student in Grade 5 will know this and this and this at the end of Grade 5, then we need to know whether the curriculum - obviously it doesn't operate independently of what goes on in the classroom and the ability of the teacher and so forth - but we want to know whether there's improvement, whether the cu rricu lum is act ually achieving its objectives. So, since 197 9 I believe, the province has cond ucted a series of test assessments of the curriculum.

The first one was initia ted in May of 1979, with an assessment of writing skills in Grades 3, 6, 9 and 12. That was followed by Reading in 1980; Science in late 19 80; Mathematics in 1981; Chemistry in 19 81; Health in 19 82; a reassessment of writing in May, 1982; Art in 19 83; Music in 1983; Social Studies in 1984; Reading again in 1985; and Science in 1986. MR. C. BIRT: I take it then, from what the Minister just gave, these aren't done on an annual basis, but on a rotational basis. Is that correct? HON. J. STORIE: Yes. MR. C.

BIRT: Perhaps the Minister could advise why they're done on a rotational basis and why not on an annual basis and have them all done at the same time. HON. J. STORIE: I gather there's essentially two reasons. No. 1, is cost and time for admi nistration and also assessment, analysis time, in terms of the staff; and, secondly, is of course the testing requires student time.

A battery of tests at a given time can be pretty disruptive, so a decision was made to stagger it. lt also gives the department a much more appropriate time frame within which to analyse the information and start adapting the curriculum prior to the next set of testings. MR. C. BIRT: Were these tests developed by the department or as a result of ini tiatives started by the department, or are they imported from outside the province? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the assessment implements, the instruments are created in Manitoba by a group of, I guess, staff and outside consultants.

While I'm at that point, I would ind icate that the Member for Fort Garry asked whether the department, in fact, had any consultants. I can ind icate that there has been one in this area, and he was contracted to do the development of appropriate questions for testing in the mathematics area. The total sum of the contract was some $23,000 for eight separate tasks. MR. C. BIRT: Could we have the name of the individual who did that study. HON. J. STORIE: The name is Dr. Lars Jansson. MR. C. BIRT: The Mini ster said that the department created the instruments.

Is he referring to the formation of the tests, or is it the content going into the tests? In other words, did the department create the total test material? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson. MR. C. BIRT: One of the concerns expressed by parents about the public school system is that they feel that there is a lack of quality in the school system. A great number of people are attempting to do a great number of things. A lot of money is being poured in it, but parents feel that the system itself is failing them and their children.

Whether it's a real or an apparent thing, it's a concern, and I think it's something that has to be addressed. I'm wondering if the Minister has had a chance to consider these concerns and what steps, if any, he has thought of trying to alleviate these concerns. HON. J. STORIE: Well, Mr. Chairperson, I would want to put on the record that, while there are concerns and I believe legitimate concerns, the overall impression of the public with respect to the public school system is generally positive, particularly the public school system - and I separate that from the high school system.

The view is that the school system is doing an adequate to good job, but of course there are exceptions. There are individual concerns and there are specific concerns about parts of the educational system. I guess the last couple of years, and I include 1986, as a year where the Department of Education has, and will be, undertaking a number of initiatives that I believe are designed to improve the system and I think we're taking a somewhat new approach in that.

I've ind icated before in the House that, for example, the quality of education in itiatives, which see for the first time the addressing of problems from an inter­ organizational perspective. I use only as an example - and I have previously - the idea of in-servicing.

I use the issue of in-servicing in which parents, teachers, the public have a perception of what in-servicing should be about; what it is about; and we, for the first time, got to the three major organizations and the university to sit down - I'm talking about MAST, MTS and the Superintendents - to sit down and address the question of in-servicing from a collective perspective. What are the issues in in-servicing that need to be addressed? What are the problems with in-servicing as it's currently being delivered?

Where is there room for improvement? lt seems to me that that way of addressing the problems, whether it be in-servicing; whether it be student assessment; whether it be parental involvement; is going to be much more successful than, either the Department of Education unilaterally making pronouncements, or one or other of the groups perceiving an opportunity to make some progress. So the quality of education initiatives which cover those topics and others, I think, is one way of addressing the public concern about the nature of the education that their children are getting.

The second way - and I reference this as well - is the question of the high school review of the surveys that I have seen; the public surveys that have been produced by others, I believe that the most concern rests with the high school system, its adequacy in terms of not only academics, but perhaps more even the question of readiness for the work force, university, post-secondary education, whatever. I believe that the high school review is going to address the question of 2360

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 curriculum in the high school, the question of the priorities that the system should have, and it's going to address, I hope in a public way, the concerns about the system generally that are out there. So those two initiatives, I think, should deal with many of the concerns that have been expressed by parents and groups over the next year. That's a couple of things. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, currently the number of school divisions offering the CTBS, is a yardstick or an attempt to un derstand how their students are faring and how their school divisions are faring.

But the inadequacy, as I understand it, of this type of testing is that it relates to perhaps a culture base or a different lifestyle in another part of Canada or in the Unit ed States. Therefore, it may not be truly valid. There is also a concern that some form of either departmental exams or some uniform testing of skills be done to try and determine whether or not the educational system is functioning as it should and also to identify areas of weakness so that they can be reinforced.

Has the department contemplated developing its own curriculum base testing for all classes or at least even for the high school and to do it on an annual basis province-wide where it would be developed solely by people in Manitoba based on Manitoba curriculum and the educational system to try and find out just how the system is delivering its services to the children and how the children are in fact receiving the educational experience? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I would again like to separate the issues of student assessment from curricu lum.

I kn ow that th ey are not com pletely independent, but I think the Curriculum Assessment Program, which identifies, I believe there are four separate areas within the assessment, it's facts and knowledge, processes and skills, - what's the other one? Anyway, there are four separate aspects to the assessment that goes on in the curriculum so that we know whether, in fact, Grade 6 students know when Canada became a country or when Confederation occurred; that kind of factual information. We know what percentage of students has that kind of information. So that's the kind of assessment that goes on.

That will help us to address the curriculum problems, to make sure that what we want students to know by way of knowledge, skills and attitudes are, in fact, being learned, and so that's what the assessment program is. (Mr. Deputy Chairman, D. Scott, in the Chair.) What we're coming to now, we're coming to a stage where, in fact, the initial process of the assessment has taken place. We now have a data base of where students stood with respect to their knowledge and so forth in reading, in science, in mathematics.

The second test will tell us in comparative terms, it will allow us to compare with where we were several years ago in the curriculum and whether the improvements we've made, the changes we've made have actually had any impact, the knowledge, the attitude, the sk ills, whatever . Have they been signif icantly impr oved by the modif ications to the curriculum? it's a slow process, but it provides some 2361 continuity and obviously is a manageable form for changing the curriculum.

The question of basic skills - I guess there are some disadvantages to standardized basic skills tests and I point out that the curriculum assessment is made in Manitoba, the issues of assessment are developed and issues are raised through the questions, the design of the assessment instrument, so it is made in Manitoba. lt reflects very much what is going on in the classroom. The member pointed out in his

preamble that there are some legitimate concerns about the validity of basic skills testing that is to some extent culturally based, to the extent that the materials themselves are not produced in Canada or in Manitoba. They may introduce or skew the results. So there are problems. Having said that, the basic skill tests are useful to ind ividual teachers for assessment about progress about individual students, but not so much about the appropriateness or inappropriateness of curriculum per se or the entire school program. MR. C.

BIRT: The unfortunate part of the curriculum tests is that they take so long, they only apply in a lim ited area, and it's almost as if you're looking backwards. I think the important thing is, especially now as we have sort of a static student base, we have a fair amount of money going into the educational system, that the tools are in place or will be put in place to ensure that the students are really benefiting to the best of their ability. A lot of well-meaning people think they know what the answer is, but there is no yardstick or measuring device in which to relate it to.

I don't advocate testing or exams just to show that Johnny did better than Peter or something like this. lt seems to me that these should be as a useful tool in helping to improve the system. In fact, that is the princi ple being used in your curriculum tests. All I'm saying is, it may be difficult, it may require some additional resources. But it strikes me that a school division should know whether or not it's measuring up to norm or to the one next to it. If there are students moving in and out, why are they moving in and out? Is it because of lack of programming? Is it lack of delivery skills?

I think it's important that the students be given every opportunity. Now whether this is done thr ough tests or departmental exams or a combination of both, I would agree that departmental exams shouldn't be the sole criteria in judging a student or the system on it, but I think people want the best from the system for the children. I can appreciate that the Mini ster is attempting to go part-way along in trying to get some handle on the value of the system as far as curriculum is concerned, but there's a much bigger issue out there.

There are some 200,000 students that we should be getting a handle on. lt seems to me we can recognize perhaps cultural areas, whether they be Northern, the centre of the city, things like this, that may impact to a degree, but even those people it seems to me, especially Northern students who may be from isolated communities, to make sure that when they get a mark or a diploma, in fact, that diploma will allow them entrance or give them access to some specific area down in the City

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 of Winnipeg or in Brandon, that they're not in fact thinking they've got Grade 12 when they've only got a Grade 10 or Grade 9 standing.

So it seems to me these testing mechanisms would be of benefit to all people just not as some people would say, it would only prove that people in suburbia are brighter and they're better and everything else like this, so I would urge the Min ister to look seriously at expanding this whole area, additional testing, skill testing, and perhaps even look at this question of departmental exams, and to give it a try because without trying - and if it doesn't work, fine, we'll look at something else. But to just say that the curriculum tests are the only way to go, I don't share that point of view.

I think that we should ensure that our children are getting the best that we can give them. HON. J. STORIE: I guess two things: No. 1, I think it would be a mistake to assume that schools within a division are not reviewing both the results of that division in terms of the curriculum assessment and in terms of student achievement on basic skill tests, whether it's the Canadian Test of Basic Skills or the Can adia n Achievement Test.

The fact that admi nistration obviously has the information and, I believe, will be by a vast majority doing the kinds of comparisons, doing the kind of assessment on an ind ividual student basis that the member is referring to, to see where there are weaknesses. I think the concern that has been raised is a legitimate one, and I can only reference the results that were reported in the paper about the CTBS scores coming from Winnipeg 1.

I think a further analysis of those would show that there have been some areas of improvement and the school division and school board, while acknowledging that they had not paid as much att ention to it as they shou ld, it is a source of information. School divisions can use it. Between admin istrations when superintendents meet, I don't have any doubt that there is a reference of material, a sharing of material, the expectations, the experiences of students within those divisions.

So the information that's accumulated by the basic skills tests can be used for different purposes as well, other than simply assessing an individual student. 1t can give you an ind ication of how a grade level is achieving in a specific skill area, how a classroom is achieving and how an individual is achieving. But it should be recognized within that, that the purpose was to test indi vidual skills. I think teachers do use that in formation. lt is being put to use, and there is no doubt in my mind that we are producing a better quality of student in 19 86 than we ever have been before.

I point out that Socrates lamented in the year whatever that the school system was failing our kids. That cry has been heard in every generation, and I don't think the results of our progress to date would ind icate that that's the case. Certainly my contact with students in the school system tell me that they're better informed, they're more highly motivated, they're achieving more academically and otherwise than ever before. So while we want to improve the system, I don't think it needs the kind of jolt that the member perhaps does or that some people seem to.

I believe it needs thoughtful, careful, progressive improvement. I think the department has been on that course for a num ber of years and will be, at least at the public school level, for the next couple. If there are to be dramatic changes, I would expect that they will come about as a result of the High School Review and a change in emphasis on the part of society as a whole in terms of what we expect from our high schools. MR. C.

BIRT: Two issues with what the Minister has said, one being that when you get the Dean of Arts and Sciences at the Un iversity of Winnipeg, you get people at the Un iversity of Manitoba, you get similar comments coming from the technical schools that the product coming out of the high school system is ina dequate to today's norms; that money, resources are required and, in fact, needed to upgrade the students, to give them a basic understanding, to allow them to graduate. 1t seems to me that the system is not providing the type of education that is required and this may apply throughout.

I would agree that a number of the students coming out today are better informed, wider knowledge, things like this, but when they start coming to the hard crunch as to meeting the assignments, passing the tests, trying to get a diploma, a degree or a certificate, whatever, they are having some problems. The institutions who are supposed to be educating them, in fact, are finding that they're coming up short and, in order to give them an opportunity, are in fact having to give them some upgrading skills. So I don't think the system is as cheerful as the Minister would like us to believe.

But the second thing about this so-called general sharing of the knowledge, in fact that is not correct, as it may be done to some degree on a voluntary basis of the results of these tests. But it's the department that sets the standards; it's the department that devises policy; and it's the department that allocates resources.

If the department was in control of developing its own tests and would use them province-wide, it could then assess school divisions on a fair basis and, where it is found wanting because of whatever, they could then move in specific programs to help them, just as the Minister's department has done for the inner core, in trying to address the specific concerns in that particular area, the same type of approach could be taken. I think it requires leadership from the departmental point of view, and not perhaps general sharing of some knowledge on an informal basis at some convention.

A fair amount of money is available in the system; we have to make sure it's going to the right spot. So I don't share the Min ister's point of view that everything is okay and there will be no dramatic change. I think if you're looking at the high school curriculum, in particular, that you should be looking at this aspect of it as well. Don't throw it out of hand; consider it. There may be some better way in which you can bring about a guarantee that a person graduating out of Grade 12 is, in fact, getting a good education.

So I would ask the Minister that it be included in the high school curriculum review and, if not there, at least have the department review it and test it, give it a chance, see. lt might work; it might surprise you. HON. J. STORIE: I don't want to get into a debate about the appropriateness or inappropriateness of 2362

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 provincial exams. I think it has been tried in Manitoba; it has been tried in other jurisdictions and despite the fact that Alberta has ind icated, I believe, that they were reintroducing provincial exams, I'm not sure that they have to date, because of a lot of the concerns that were raised again about the adequacy of provincial exams. The member referenced, and I think if you think through carefully the implications of provincial exams, you recognize that really what you're encouraging is a static system, rather than one that progresses and changes.

Provincial exams, certainly the way they were used, encouraged that kind of static system, a reluctance I guess to change, as teachers from year to year geared up for the same set of exams on the same questions, on the same issues. There are many other shortcomings which I'm sure the mem ber - I'm assuming the member was raised in Manitoba - will recall. The second issue, I think it's overly simplistic and inco rrect to suggest that there is a vast number of students attending our universities, going through our univ ersities, who are having difficulties with any of the basis skills.

The fact is that there are some. I think that reflects more a deliberate and progressive action on the part of this government, and some previous progressive adminis trations, to improve accessibility. lt is no longer the top 10 percent of our students who are going to university. lt is now some 35 percent, I believe the latest figures are, of our high school graduates ending up in post-second ary institutions. So it is not the elitist kind of network it once was.

Of course that means that there are going to be students with less than ideal qualifications and there have been attempts by universities, although markedly few, attempts to deal with - I mean markedly few, in terms of numb ers, have been required to upgrade skills. The member referenced earlier the course that's to be offered, or is intending to be offered as a credit course, a half-credit course at the Un iversity of Manitoba.

I understand that the reference there is a writing course that really is to assist students in dealing with new technology, that we're talking about a course which addresses the technological needs, I suppose, jargon, whatever, all of those other things, rather than a course to upgrade the skills per se. That was not the original intention . I certainly have not heard any cry from the university presidents that this is somehow an overwhelming problem. I believe that the vast majority of our students attending universities are attending with the appropriate skill levels and achieving appropriately. MR. C.

BIRT: I think the Minis ter misses the point. Accessibility to higher education has been there for years and years, if not decades. There's a higher number of kids attending, I agree, but if the Minis ter is suggesting, by increasing accessibility, that one must water down standards, I find it difficult to accept that theory but, in fact, that's what he was advocating. What I've been suggesting all the way through is that the public school system makes sure that every student that graduates from it has the basic skills to allow them to pursue whatever course they wish.

There's no guarantee in today's world that, in fact, is in question. You didn't have the remedial programs that they have in the institutions today, some 20 or 30 years ago. You didn't have the cry for an inadequate system, so I think the Mini ster is missing the point on this issue. However, to get on an area of more specific concern, the Minister has announced a high school review as a potential solution to some of the concerns facing the high school, and I'm wondering, on February 7, 1986, there was a press release announced saying that a high school review has been instituted.

Can the Minister advise if, in fact, the review committee has now been put into place? HON. J. STORIE: I just wanted to deal with a couple of the comments made by the member previously, and that is the question of remedial courses being offered at post-secondary education institutions. The number of students attending remedial courses is a very small percentage.

I referenced the num ber, the percentage increase of our high school students who are attending post-secondary institutions. lt is almost a 300 percent increase over the last - I don't know - 20 years, 25 years, 30 years. lt's also true that, previously, students who required remedial skills, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that word - I mean, our whole objective in providing a public education system is to bring people along as far as we can, not to entertain the abilities of the top 10 percent, but to deal and cope with the abilities of all students, to allow them to continue in the system and progress and develop skills and knowledge and experience as far as they can. lt doesn't mean watering it down.

Obviously, what it has meant in the cases of the university, I think, is a realistic adjustment to the world, and that is that some of the students who graduate may not be as academically inclined in some areas, have some deficiency in skills in some areas and they've responded, I think, in the appropriate way. Rather than to deny them access, to say there are some remedial courses that we will offer which we would recommend to the students who are having difficulty. The alternative in 1950, of course, was to withdraw. I don't think that is a good option for society.

I think the more students that attend post-secondary institutions, the more students that go to university, the better off we're going to be in the long run. The Member for Fort Garry may take a differing point of view on that, but I believe it's a logical response to something that's happened. lt does not ind icate at all a watering down. I think it's a misconception in terms of what's happening both at the high school system and at our un iversities to suggest otherwise. The second part of the question, Mr. Chairperson, dealt with the review.

I'd in dicated in the House some week-and-a-half ago the names of the review committee would be announced. I am expecting to be able to do that within the next week . MR. C. BIRT: Can the Minister advise when the comm ittee is going to start work? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, the tentative time line for the committees would be initial start-up in September of this year. 2363

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 MR. C. BIRT: Is there a time

schedule they are to meet, a deadline in which they're to file either an interim or a final report? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, the report - tentati vely, we would like to have a report in my hands by the 30th of June, 1987. So we're talking about a year in essence. MR. C. BIRT: Could the Mini ster advise is the final report or an interim report and the committee will, in fact, carry on? HON. J. STORIE: Well, I expect that will be an interim report at that stage. Originally, we had hoped there may be time to have an interim report and to do some consultation prior to June 30, 1987, but it seems unlikely .

I think it's important enough and the potential for revision are significant enough that the longer time frame for consultation and review is probably worthwhile and necessary. MR. C. BIRT: The press release I'm referring to says, and I'm quoting now, "For more than two years, Manitoba education has been collecting information about high schools in the province which can now be used by this committee to facilitate their discussions." What is the information the department has been collecting? HON. J.

STORIE: Yes, most of that information has been compiled around the course selections of students and the options they're choosing, how they followed up that kind of information. MR. C. BIRT: Is it just general information that comes out sort of research and planning or was some specific studies put into place to gather this information? How did this information evolve? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, I understand research and planning is gathering that information directly from school divisions and building a data base, in other words, transferring it to a computer so that questions relating particularly to the core curriculum at high school will be able to be analysed as requested in a manner requested by the committee or sub­ comm ittees of the high school review. MR. C. BIRT: The press release goes on to say that working with th is data, the panel will prepare a consultative paper on high school issues for release in October. I take it that deadline has been pushed back somewhat.

Is it the intention of the panel to prepare a paper and then release it for public discussion? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson. MR. C. BIRT: When will that paper be prepared and released, or what was the tentative release of that paper? HON. J. STORIE: Essential ly, it's expected somewhere between January and April of 1987 that the feedback to the initial consultation paper would be responded to. MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, do I understand it then from the base information that the Minister has referred to which has been collected over the last two years, and just from the various expertise of the particular mem bers of the com mittee they, without public consultation, will be preparing a discussion paper? HON. J. STORIE: No, obviously there would be a paper produced. The consuitation would focus around a paper from January to ApriL That's when the public will have an opportunity to review what will be called a consultation paper and, obviously, other issues are going to arise.

We believe the essence of the issues which need to be addressed will be raised in the consultation paper, and public consultation will attempt to be focused around those issues through the January to April period. Subsequent to receiving that kind of input, then an interim report will be prepared. MR. C. BIRT: lt would seem to me, Mr. Chairman, that would be sort of focusing or limiting the debate.

I don't mean to wish to cast any aspersions on those who may occupy the panel or the information that they are referring to, but if you create the document without public input, you may miss some topic or some areas of concern. lt seems to me you've got it backwards. Why isn't the committee going out and holding public hearings on everything as it relates to high school review and then prepare a discussion paper and then go back for further either refining or comments or input? HON. J. STORIE: Well, I suppose there are pros and cons to both approaches.

I think the member recognizes you can't do a review of everything. 1t doesn't work - (Interjection) - Well, essentially I've - (Interjection) - Mr. Chairperson, what the member's question I think raises is the issue of whether there is any consensus about the changes that need to be made. I believe there have been over the last few years several issues raised. I've mentioned a couple of them.

I believe the panel when they begin their work will be able to identify many others and will identify a series of issues that have been raised, are of concern to members of the public - to parents, to teachers, to universities, post­ secondary institutions generally - and that will serve as a focus for comments from groups and from parents.

Certainly, that does not preclude the raising of any issue to the comm ittee, to a sub-comm ittee of the committee, and certainly if there is an ind ication there is a widespread concern about some other issue which has not been raised, that would obviously be an appropriate subject of investigation. Again, the difficulty as the member may realize in opening it previously and said what are the problems is every individual will assume their particular concern is the most appropriate and needs addressing. Now, what we're trying to do is develop a consensus about what needs to change.

The comm ittee, I hope you will see, reflects a broad spectrum of Manitoba society, both geographically and in terms of the groups that they represent. So I think that you will see that the issues that are addressed in the consultation paper will, in fact, reflect most, if not all, of the concerns that have been raised over the past few years in terms of high school programming. 2364

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 MR. C. BIRT: When this committee is finally named and structured, is the department or their Order-in­ Council going to be setting out the criteria on which this committee will be operating from, some parameters, some guidelines? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, as Mini ster of Education I will be announcing not only the names, but I've indi cated on previous occasions the terms of reference, the broad terms of reference for the commi ttee as well as a time frame for the activities that the committee will be undertaking. MR. C.

BIRT: When the Min ister annou nces that, I note by the press release, there's some just general phrases and I'm wondering if, when the appointments are made, if it's done either by Order-in-Council or by letter with specific parameters identified if he could share that with myself and other members who may be of interest to it, just to see what the parameters are. Because often press releases don't reflect accurately the true intent of the document. I don't mean that in any misleading sense but it would be nice to know just exactly what is their set of parameters. HON. J.

STORIE: I've ind icated that I will be making an announcement within the next week, I believe, on the parameters and the committee designation. MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, the press release that I'm referring to of February 7th, outlines a number of groups that will have representation on the panel and it says Manitoba Teachers Society 4, Manitoba Association of School Trustees 2, Manitoba Association of School Superintendents 2, Home and School Parent- Teacher Federation of Manitoba 1, Post-Secondary Education for Institutions 2, Business 1, Labour 1, Manitoba Education 4, Members selected by the Minister of Education 4. Is it still the intention of the Mini ster to have that type of representation? HON. J. STORIE: Yes. MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, when one looks at the parental involvement in devising special programs, and I'm thinking now what the department and Winnipeg 1 have gone to, to try and encourage parental involvement in the education of their children in developing proper skills for them and upgraded curriculum, I find it strange that you would only have one so-called parent representative of these. I can appreciate the other people or it may all be parents in their own right, but they come from a particular constituency or a particular point of view. One of the key concerns about parents is curriculum and the high school.

Could the Min ister consider expanding the number of, shall we say, non-special interest groups and add additional members from the public or from the parents to have a greater input in this because quite frankly they would - 1 against a group of a dozen or 15 people, you're hardly going to get a consensus; you're going to perhaps get a biased report one way that may not truly reflect the concerns of the parents. HON. J.

STORIE: I can only ind icate that the committee already is fairly large as the member can appreciate and that there are certainly 50 other groups who would like to have representatives on the committee. The point has to be made that this committee is really going to be setting the context and some parameters for the review.

The real review is going to be done by the hundr eds of ind ivid uals and groups who make representation to the comm ittee, and we have representatives from parent-teacher, representatives from the Manitoba Association of School Trustees, representatives from the superintendents and business and labour. The member is quite right, many of those will be parents in their own right. But recognizing that we're talking about changing the structure of the high school system, I think no one can argue with the groups that we've selected to have representation on the committee.

I think the point is that the comm ittee is going to be trying to focus discussion on important areas, that there will be avenues for parents' groups, special interest groups of all kinds to make representation to the comm ittee. Apart from that I had ind icated that it was my intention to do my own series of information meetings, dialogue meetings with parents, teachers and students over the coming months as well so that I can develop for my own reasons, my own edification a sense of the real concerns that parents and students have about the system.

I think that's a political sensitivity that I need to have as we go into the review process so I will be doing that. MR. C.

BIRT: I would agree with the Minister that a review is needed, in fact long overdue, and I would also agree with the Minister that the composition of the panel quite frankly is too large, unless they intend to break it up and have it go in different directions at different times. lt would be a very unwieldy body but nonetheless it would seem to me that one could get greater flexibility by reducing the num ber, like one of each sort of thing and I'm biased here but I think there should be a greater parental involvement on this board, especially if it is the intention to break up the committee to go through various parts of the province and hold hearings at the same time.

Because there's a perception by parents or some parents that the system is not performing the way it should be.

Now what better way than to have parents who are sitting on the committee, and I don't mean one, I mean several, helping to develop this so-called discussion paper and then going out and listening, because all of the other ones come, quite frank ly, with a slightly prejudiced point of view, whether they be a teacher or a trustee or a superintendent; they're prejudiced from their own particular constituency no matter how open-minded they may think they are. lt may need a parent or parents to open up the discussion and start challenging some of the assumptions that these professions are dealing with.

Now they may be right but at least an honest debate will have started both in the evolution of the discussion paper, which I think quite frankly is backwards, I think if the parameters of the comm ittee can be struck then you go out and discuss and then you form your consensus paper and then go back. But if the Min ister wishes to pursue the course that he wants to it just strikes me that we should ensure that we have parent representation in proper numb ers throughout the process. 2365

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 In the beginning, through the conception stage, and then on and listening to the public to make sure that their points of view at least are being heard and argued when the final report is made. HON. J. STORIE: I hope the member appreciates the difficulty that I have. He's recognized that the committee is already too large and that there are requests from many, and I emphasize many, other groups who would like to be on this comm ittee.

I have said to them as I've said to the member that the work of the committee is not really going to be done until all of the groups have been heard from, until their points have been made. The purpose of the committee is to focus di scussion, develop the consultation paper, get feedback, a second round of feedback and make an interim report Certainly the review of the consultation paper is going to be the most critical, and I can only promise that it will be as widely distributed and as broadly commented upon as is humanly possible within the time frame that the committee has to operate.

I don't believe that I, nor most of the other respresentatives, go into this process with too many preconceived notions about what changes are going to be desired. I have heard a lot of mumblings about dis satisfaction but I have certainly had no clear representations from virtually any group about the change s that are need ed, the changes that are desirable. Clearly, some people believe we should move to this way, and some people believe we should move that way.

Obviously, I have my own opinions about some of the things that should be looked at, but the committee and the groups who make representation will determine what kind of a final report we receive. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd go on in a little bit more orderly fashion and go into 4.(

a) Division Admin istration. In that particular instance, we have what would look like a one-year staff year increase. Can the Minister tell me what and who that individual is going to be, and what functions they will have? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, that increase relates to some of the initial activity taken around the Quality of Education Initiative. MRS. S. CARST AIRS: I understand that there is someone in this particular group who is called an education consultant, at least going through the directory that's what I come up with.

Can the Minister explain to me what is the difference between an education consultant and a curriculum consultant? HON. J. STORIE: I understand the difference is that an educational consultant does not have a certificate and a curriculum consultant does. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I assume, when you're referring to a certificate, you mean an education consultant would not have a certificate in education? HON. J. STORIE: Yes. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Why would you have someone in this particular position who did not have a certificate of education? HON. J.

STORIE: I understand that the person referenced was transferred actually or redeployed from media services into the area and provides support services in a num ber of areas: development, design, etc. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: In the Other Expenditu res

section of this one, we've got an increase of 652 percent it's gone from 18 ,000 to 141 ,500; would you like to ex pain? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, essentially all of that money has been allocated to the Quality of Education Initiatives, preparation of support materials, consultation materials, meetings, etc. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Has the Minister annou nced yet or will he be announcing shortly, who will, in fact, be in charge of this quality initiatives? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I'm not sure that has been announced, but the coordinator is Dr. Tony Riffel.

He originally comes to us from the Un iversity of Manitoba. MRS. S. CARST AIRS: Could the Minister outline briefly what are the parameters of which he will be working, types of things that will be evaluated in the area of quality init iatives? HON. J. STORIE: The Quality of Education Initiatives, as announced by the previous Min ister, fall into six different areas. The first has been referenced on a number of occasions. That's the review of in-service education. I have ind icated that an inter-organizational paper has already been prepared on that, so that's work that is ongoing.

The second area is the question of student assessment and much has been discussed today about the need for improving our system of assessment and upgrading it, a better understanding of what student assessment is and what it's designed to achieve. Preparations are being made for workshops this fall in the area of student assessment and there is to be the inter-organizational, again, consultation on student assessment issues.

The third area in which there is going to be initiatives is the development of a paper and recommendations on materials and actions to foster parent-teacher collabora tion, parental involvement in the school generally. Materials have also been produced in a fourth area and they relate to local planning efforts. A local planning guide has already been produced and distributed.

I can provide the member with a copy, a Self-study and Planning Guide for use in schools, which really helps school divisions to focus on planning issues, what questions to ask, and to assist them in developing objectives for their educational system in a long-term strategy. Number five, there is an intention to develop an inf ormation program, an informatio n-sharing 2366

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 mechanism between school divisions on effective educational practices, kind of highlighting the successes within the system as it currently exists. There are some significant successes that we don't always hear about. Final ly, we will be trying to create a network with MAST, MTS, a network of schools to demonstrate, as demonstration units, if you will, for inno vative and particularly eft g70"y stems, whether it be vocational education or special needs or whatever, so that we can have some sharing of the expertise within Manitoba. MRS. S. CARST AIRS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. HON. J.

STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I had ind icated that I would be tabling a copy of the professional development, inter-organization paper, and I would like to do that at this time. I would like to provide the critics and the deputy critics with copies of that paper so that they can see the focus that the groups themselves have taken on the question of professional development in Manitoba. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: We seem to be discussing practically this whole section. Do I have permission to go onto (

b) Curric ulum Development and Implementation? MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, we seem to be reasonably flexible here dealing with Item 4 as a whole, so, you know, with the Minister's agreement, we can continue doing that. The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to preface going into this

section with a few comments which I have tried to withhold up to this point in a lot of other areas, I am amazed that in the area of Curriculum Development and Implementation, that this would be the

section in which the Department of Education would choose to cut probably the largest

section of any budget by 10.4 percent in Other Expenditures. Of all of the departments th at are program development and support services and perhaps all departments in the Depart ment of Educa tion, Curriculum Development and Implementation is the one that is most critical to what happens in the classrooms other than the teacher itself. I think it has to become involved in some of the issues that we've already raised today, the concept of testing, teacher training, and the choice of curriculum that we are going to develop and implement in the Province of Manitoba.

I'd like to give some examples of the kinds of poor directional planning that I have seen existing in my own teaching experience here in Manitoba. Several years ago we implemented a new K-9 Social Studies program. I was particularly interested in the 7-9 program: Space Ship Earth in Grade 7, World Hi story in Grade 8, and Canadian Gover nment essentially in Grade 9. While we introd uced curriculum, which in my opinion was very good, what we didn't do was to look at all of the things that would be affected by that curriculum.

In the school in which I taught, for example, with the exception of myself, there wasn't a single teacher who had had a geography course at any point in their post- high school program; not one. If you're going to be teaching very complex geographical principles, it's very difficult to do that if the teachers who are going to teach them don't understand that rivers can indeed flow north.

We don't have any carry-over, as far as I can see, between new curriculum and teacher programs going on at our un iversities so that for example, although now an integral part of the Grade 9 curriculum is Government, and so is an integral part of the Grade 11 Social Studies program, Government; Political Science is still not considered a teachable subject at the Education Faculty of the Department of Ed. at the Un iversity of Manitoba.

So that we are still graduating high school and junior high school teachers who have training in History, while we have moved to curriculum planning so that Social Stud ies now at least encompasses Geography, Economics, History, Political Science, and to some degree, Sociology. So I am frustrated and teachers are frustrated with being asked to teach curriculum which is good stuff, but for which they have little or no training and I don't see that the correlation is being pulled together. I was also dismayed to discover that 60 percent of my students could not read the Grade 7 textbook.

They did not have the reading skills required to use this textbook, and yet it was a well-written text and a very valuable text. I think that the frustrations of teachers cannot be addressed by in-services. We have to look at Curriculum Development and Implementation in a much broader area and that has got to involve teacher training. The member beside me from Fort Garry, earlier this afternoon, talked about testing. I have to say, Mr. Chairman, that I was appalled at the statement by the Min ister in approving curriculum assessment when he talked about facts and knowledge.

I think as a teacher himself, he must know that was what we fought mostly in the whole rotten departmental exam system that used to exist; that I don't want to teach. or whether a child knows that Confederation took place in 1867; I want to know that he knows what Confederation was. I don't want children to learn History in matter of dates, but I do want them to learn History in being able to evaluate and judge what is a long-term cause and what is a short-term cause and ultimately to be able to read History and to have some skills at the manner by which they approach the reading of that subject.

If we are going to test, surely the best type of testing is reading skills and computational skills and logical development skills; and not curriculum skills. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate the comments of the Member for River Heights. I'd like to ind icate that while I talked about facts and knowledge, I only talked about that as one of the objectives of the curriculu m. I talked about the development of thinking and processing skills; I talked about the attitudes, etc. So there are many objectives in a curriculum and the teaching of some facts, I think, is appropriate.

I don't think there was an intention to imply that that's the only thing a curriculum should do, is to impart facts. The second issue, I guess the question of the ability and the willingn ess, I guess, of teachers and school 2367

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 divisions to undertake training, retraining and upgrading of skills is something that the department has worked, and I've indi cated other groups have worked on, over the last few years. Certainly the change in the curriculum - and I've ind icated that has required or does require the changing abilities of teachers. I think that is reflected to some extent in the activities, the coopera tion, coordination of activities between the department, the Faculty of Education and the major groups involved in education.

I think it's reflected in our own in-service work and the member says well, you can't do everything through in-service, that's quite true. I think you have to rely also on the ability of teachers to be able to adapt and to learn on their own to develop new skills and new ways of dealing with the curriculum. I think the fact is that today we have some 80-plus percent of teachers with Class 4,a degree, so I think they're in a better position to deal with curriculum changes, certainly at the K-9 level than many of our previous generations of teachers.

I think simply the fact that we have more qualified teachers should enable us to say that most of the changes can be accommodated by teachers without the necessity of extensive upgrading. So the in-servicing, I think, does serve the purpose. Certainly from my experience, the in-ser vicing, the special area group conference that is sponsored each fall, serves a tremendous purpose in preparing the teachers to deal with the new curriculum and new approaches as well. lt's never going to be a perfect system.

Not everyone is as involved in professional development activities as admi nistration, as perhaps the department, as perhaps parents would like. But I think there is still a very deep commitment to professional development on the part of members of the teaching profession, and that their general abilities will allow them to cope with much of the change that the member has referenced in terms of the curriculum. There may be certain areas where specialized training is required. I think, as a department, we have attempted to provide that on a case-by-case basis.

Certainly, I've referenced the question about family life education support. I suppose one could always argue that there needs to be greater cooperation and coordination between the department and the Faculty of Education as we change curriculum. I think that's a legitimate argument, but there has been more cooperation. The paper that I just circulated on professional development, I think, is a first step in the joint recognition of our responsibility and the need for continuing to improve in-servicing, the quality of in-servicing, the availability of in-servicing to teachers throughout the province. MRS. S.

CARST AIRS: let's deal with some actual specifics, Mr. Chairman. A young person who enters into the Faculty of Education at the present time, maybe 18 years of age, needs to have three courses at the 300 level. That means that they may not have taken math and they may not have taken science in their Grade 12 year, both of which are compulsory courses to teach in the elementary grades.

They may go on to take no math at university and no science at uni versity, and yet they will be teaching math and science. 1 think that there is, therefore, a poorly prepared individual, not because they haven't worked hard at univ ersity, but because there isn't enough liaison between the universities and the types of curriculum that the department wants to be taught. HON. J. STORIE: The member had referenced this earlier in her conversation, questions, comments that she had made about the advantages of having teachers with at least a degree prior to certification.

I had ind icated that I believe the better qualified our teachers, the broader their educational experience generally, academic educational experience generally, the better prepared they would be to act as a resource to children. I don't disagree with the premise that may be an important requirement. I can ind icate that I believe most of the students who attend university, who are designing their educational program particularly around the secondary level. will be, as a matter of course, taking a science or math course, if not both.

Certainly, it is possible that someone may not, but it's also equally plausible to suggest that person would end up not teaching a math or a science at the secondary level. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr. Chairman, I think the Minister must be aware of the fact that because of tenure, because of a declining number of a teachers in some of our urban school divisions, there are a great many teachers out there teaching subjects for which they have no prep at all in terms of their univ ersity experience. We had, for example, in the St.

Norbert Collegiate my last year of teaching, four phys ed graduates teaching in a school that only had nine teachers. Therefore, there's very little academic expertise in the sciences, social studies, that exist there. That's where the need for this department is absolutely essential. That's why, when I see cutbacks to curriculum development and see consultants cut and I see their travel time cut and their in-servicing time cut, which appears to be happening in this particular budget, I must say I'm extremely frustrated.

I'm particularly frustrated when, for example, I see on a list of curriculum consultants, two consultants for language arts, two consultants for mathematics, but five consultants for computer education. I wonder how we justify, in a system where I still think that up to at least the junior high level, language arts and mathematics are the most important things the young people learn, how we can justify five computer ed and two math and two language arts. HON. J. STORIE: I don't know that I can respond to the particular case raised by the Member for River Heights.

I mean, school divisions obviously have a responsibility for the deployment and redeployment of staff in their divisions. I would indic ate that, depending upon the grade level, the direct expertise that's required in most instances, I guess not all instances, at the elementary level are not such that you would have to have a post-graduate degree in physics to teach Grade 3 science. I think that the case has to be made that teachers are also adaptable. They're professional. They have shown their ability to learn, and not only learn, but to teach. So I don't think we would want to go around 2368

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 suggesting that, simply because they did not have the direct relevant experience - relevance is another word that leaves me some questions sometimes - in university. In fact, teachers can teach subjects with which they have no previous familiarity. If we lived in the best of all worlds, of course, teachers would all come prepared and they would not only come prepared. they would come with the appropriate backgrounds.

That's not always possible, but I think the case has been for years that teachers do provide quality education in areas where they haven't initially had a great deal of expertise. They learn. They do more prep. The prep loads get almost un bearable. That's, I guess, part of the drawbacks to the profession, but I think they do an adequate job. That's not saying there haven't been transfers within school divisions, trans fers that were required or implemented by admin istrations which weren't perhaps in the best interests of the students because of the qualifications issue.

But I don't think that's a practice that's rampant within the system. The specific issue relating to the reductions in the Curriculum Branch, in terms of the reductions, most of the reductions in the department relate to a reduction in resource acquisitions withi n the department, recognizing that the overall budget is some $1. 4 million. The reductions relate to reduced field experience, field travel and reduction of resource acquisition, as well as minor reductions in office costs. The mem ber referred to two Language Arts consultants.

I believe there are three, as well as an Early Childhood consultant who provides Language Arts consultation, so there are actually a total of four working in that area. The member referred to the computer consultants. Obviously school divisions have expressed a great deal of interest in developing computer curriculum over the past three, four or five years.

Virtually every school division now has access to, and virtually at all grade levels, access to computers; and because of the interest in it and because it is a relatively new phenomenon, there has had to be some additional resources placed in the area of computer, computer sciences because of the tremendous volume of interest and requests from the school divisions. So we're trying to meet their needs as they perceive them as well. I wouldn't want the member to suggest that somehow we had abandoned the support that we provide to the other areas - the basics as it were - in that process.

There have been some reallocations, I believe, that is of a temporary nature. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: There's no ques tio n that computer education is glitzy and a lot of people want it, but it is equally true, in terms of the information that I can find from computer experts, that within five years everything we're presently doing in our schools will be completely obsolete.

I wonder how we're going to address that problem in the curriculum department if, in every five-year period of time, every program we've designed for our school system is going to be have to be thrown out because it's obsolete; and if we should not, in fact, be seriously questioning whether we should be trying to keep pace in a curriculum department with something which is bound to be of little or no value to the students who receive it. HON. J.

STORIE: I think that there would be many, many Manitobans and many, I suppose, school division trustees who would disagree quite heartily with the Memb er for River Heig hts about the long-term implications for computers in our society and, by implication, in the educational system. I think that while it is true that software has tended to change pretty dramatically and, in some cases hardware, over a short period of time, I don't think it would be fair to say that the impacts of computer and computer technology is something that is short lived in terms of its impact on our society.

I think computer literacy is something that we're striving for and perhaps computer literacy, computer familiarity - I don't know which one of those terms is most appropriate - but there has been a tremendous proliferation in, not only the physical number of computers, but in the number of courses and course-related material, interest in computers generally, that I think reflects very much the reality of the 19 80's, that computers are going to be very much a part of the work place into the foreseeable future.

The familiarization that's going on through curriculum right now, I think is something that many people believe is going to be necessary and a part of curriculum into the foreseeable future. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: There's no question that computers are part and parcel of our future within the society and some awareness of computer literacy may in fact be a valuable tool for all children, but it may be that typing skills and a minimal work on a computer may be in fact what is to their best advantage.

For example, what value is there in teaching computer 10, 20 and 30, which is taught in Basic, when no one is using Basic in the workplace, because it's too slow a computer language. HON. J. STORIE: I would tend to agree with you.

I would want to point out that the developing of computer languages is not always the goal, recognizing that the familiarity with computers, computer programming, that question, there is also the use of computers as a technological aid for the development of other skills, in language arts, in mathematics, in science, in other areas of the curriculum, so it's not just a question of developing computer literacy in the terms of making everyone a mini programmer. There's a question of using that technology to advantage in all areas of the curriculum. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: In terms of the assessment of our young people and the tests that we are going to give them now and into the future, I think it is important that our children learn to think logically and clearly. I think it's important that they learn the tools of research and the development of those tools and I wonder why we are not doing more in the way of province-wide test ing, not as we did in the old departmental exams, but in order to provide both parents and students with a knowledge of where they are in relationship to their peers at any one given time in their school years. HON. J.

STORIE: Not wanting to usurp any of the authority of school divisions or schools, I believe that 2369

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 parents are provided with that information, that in fact the reporting system that schools currently use does offer parents an opportun ity to compare the performance of their students with the performance of other students and their peers. I guess the member is raising the question of whether there should be some more literal and dir ect comparisons between day school or school division and other school divisions.

While I've indicated that I believe those kinds of comparisons are going on for policy purposes between divisions, that I'm not sure of the merits or the direct benefits of that kind of a system to individual parents. Clearly, basic skills tests, for example, are now I believe, in most instances, normed in Canada, so that basic skills test that are done - and I have ind icated I believe those should be shared - the result of those should be shared with parents. There are limitations to the tests and they are designed for a specific purpose but the results can be shared.

Parents and teachers then can do some comparison; and the fact that they write the test and they're normed in Canada, gives them some information about the relative standing of that particular student with respect to other students in Canada, so comparisons can be made. I guess we can argue about whether that information is accessible enough, but I think the comparisons can be made. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I would agree with the Min ister.

I don't think there's any need for division A to know how division B does, nor do I think it's of any importance that I, as a parent, know that if my child was in division X, they would in fact be a brilliant child, because that obviously is not the case. What I do think, however, is important is for a parent to have some knowledge as to whether their child is achieving at a Grade 4 level or a Grade 8 level. Unl ess we do those CTBS tests or design our own, which by the way will have a validity factor against others, that we don't have that information.

So a parent can find themselves in a situation with a very sick child and wonder whether that child should, in fact, go on to Grade 3 because they missed 40 days of school, and to try and get the results of those tests can sometimes be an extremely difficult thing if the child has even taken the test. So, you as a parent say do I send my child on to Grade 3, accept the word of the teacher that yes your child is doing fine, but I don't have any empirical data by which I can say I'm not letting my child down by letting my child be pushed into Grade 3. HON. J.

STORIE: You know, I met with a group this morning who have an extreme interest in the question of the availability of test information, school information generally on students, and I've said, I don't understand, I've never understood the reluctance of - and my experience has been that ther e isn't the kind of reluctance generally in the system to use that kind of information, to provide that kind of information. I can only reference my own experience where I, as a matter of course, sat down with parents and discussed CTBS skills scores. I said here's an area of strength for that student.

Now obviously, I suppose that creates some problems for a teacher sometimes when they try and explain the discrepancy between very high basic test skill scores and low achievement. I think tha t's the kind of information the parents want to know and need to know.

We had an interesting discussion and I had ind icated the issue of student assessment, the issue of parental involvement are two items which are high on my agenda, and I have ind icated on several occasions that access to information, that the sharing of information, the kind of information the member references is both good educational policy and good educational practice. I intend to disseminate that kind of message where and when I can. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Would the Minister then consider having the Department of Education admin ister such tests and then if those tests are not available from the individual division, have the Department of Education release the test results to parents? HON. J. STORIE: Well, I ind icated to the group this morning my preference is always to work with. I emphasize that is also a goal of mine over the next num ber of months - and perhaps wishfully thinking, years - to eo-opt the major groups in the educational system into dealing cooperatively with these issues.

I don't want to be seen to be applying the heavy hand of government when it isn't necessary. I don't believe there is a consensus out there against providing that kind of information to the parent. lt may not be a practice in all areas, but I don't believe there is any conspiracy of silence with respect to the testing that's done in our school divisions.

I believe most teachers do share that kind of information, informally and formally, and before I would contemplate prescribing what kind of sharing goes on, I would want to sit down and see where there are areas of agreement and where collectively or cooperatively we can begin to open up the system where there is a lack. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to just deal briefly with the high school review that they were discussing, but I have a problem, I guess, first of all, as has been mentioned with the representation.

I feel to have one parent on the review panel is not good enough. - (Interjection) - I know that's been stated before, but I really believe in this area where we haven't had a high school review in how long, and it's something that is on anyone's mind who is interested at all in education, that I think the Min ister has got some very nice leeway where there are four members to be selected by the Mini ster of Education. I would hope he sees fit to make those four appointments parents. I don't mean parents coming from education.

I mean people who have shown a real int erest and the Minister would probably know who they are because I imagine they're knocking on his door every other day trying to get their points across. I think it's much better to have these people working from within than always hammering at the government trying to make them change things. I think you find a lot of the people who seem to be hammering on one 2370

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 issue, I think you'd get them to come around if they were working as part of a committee and there would be a better balance. HON. J. STORIE: I have taken note of the comments which were made with respect to the representation. Certainly, I will be appointing parents. I would want to ind icate again I believe many of the groups that are here also are parents who represent the interests of parents - certainly the school trustees come to mind - and there are such a broad array of groups who would like to be involved in this that there are clearly 50 other groups.

I could probably sit down and identify who would like to be involved in this. I want to empha size the mem ber ship on the committee is not the be-all and end-all; that in fact the real work of the committee involves listening as much as detailing, and the emphasis is going to be very much on the input of groups and associations, and while we have a collective of people who will be trying to synthesize that material, this is intended very much to be a broadly-based consultative process. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I think one of the areas the Memb er for Fort Ga rry ind icated, he felt it was backwards, I feel that way myself. I think if you're going to use these people as listening posts, start them off that way and then let them take the information which comes to the committee and form an interim report. What's the point of them spending time putting down what they think people want and then it may not turn out to be that at all. I just offer that as a suggestion; I think it's not a bad suggestion to start that way rather than set down things and having to throw them out which is not going to be such a help.

The other point that the Minister made about people going to univ ersity, that it's a 300 percent increase in the past 30 years. I think that comes as much from a matter of parent expectation today. I think 30 years ago, and a bit longer probably, that a lot of people didn't think everyone should go to university. You finished high school and you went to work.

I think it's been in the past number of years that this is what parents expect from their children, this is what they're pushing for, and this is why they're so concerned about curriculum, about high school review, you name it, and there are parents doing some type of a study. I don't think it's just enough to say that it's because of the great and glorious work that's happened in education, although I do feel, I know my three children have got a good education in the public school system. I was certainly cross with it many times but, basically, I feel that they did get a good education.

I just made that as some points. I would like to deal a bit with the testing. I was under the impression, and pardon me if I'm wrong, that the CTBS testing by the province, that those tests weren't released to the individual teachers in schools? Am I wrong? HON. J. STORIE: No, there are two sets of tests. Perhaps the memb er wasn 't here earlier when I referenced them. One is the curriculum assessment which is done by the province.

We see our role as essentially monitoring the curriculum and developing the curriculum. 2371 The second area was the testing of individual students or student assessment, and the province currently has a program, an ongoing program of assessment which began actually in 1979 and we have developed basically a policy whereby the assessment is done on a Manitoba­ wide basis, a minimum of 10 percent random sample per classroom in Grades 3, 6, 9 and 12. Where a division chooses to offer the assessment material to its full complement, we provide the division with a provincial

summary of the results, a division-wide

summary and the scoring for individual students, or whatever they have requested in that combination. The area of basic skills is something that is within the domain of the school division. Appoximately half the school divisions use the Canadian Test of Basic Skills, which is quite different from the curriculum assessment material. The other school divisions use a variety of basic skills tests. What used to be the California Achievement Test is now the Canadian Achievement Test, and a number of other skills tests which have been developed over the years.

My understanding is that the Canadian Test of Basic Skills and the Canadian Achievement Test are now normed in Canada so they do reflect Canadian norms rather than as opposed originally to American norms. They provide, in most cases, depending on, I guess, the adequacy of the testing procedures, but generally a good review of the basic skills of individual students, the basic skills being: spelling; language art skills. They include reading comprehension, reading level, etc., as well as a numb er of other skill areas. MRS. G. HAMMOND: On the testing for the curriculum, are those tests released at all?

Because that is testing, no matter what you are using it for. Are those tests given to the division, by division and by school? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, those are available and are in the library upstairs as well, the final reports. MRS. G. HAMMOND: How many divisions are doing their own division-wide testing at the high school level? HON. J. STORIE: Just to clarify, the member is referring to examinations? MRS. G. HAMMOND: This is examinations. HON. J. STORIE: I understand the practice is very uneven; that there are very few divisions that test in all areas.

There are some divisions who periodically, I guess, test in different curriculum areas on a division­ wide basis. I wouldn't discourage that necessarily; that's a practice that followed from, I think, if the member remembers, the elim ination of the provincial examinations. For a period time, divisional exams were the practice in many school div isions. That has subsequently changed, and now there has been a move for some divisions to reintroduce divisional exams.

But, again, it's effectiveness depends very much on the homogeneity of the division and to the extent that there are di fferences, cultural, socio-ec onomic, the effectiveness, I guess, of that can be lessened. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I have heard the Minister's views on the testing, but basically, and I'm not in agreement

Tuesday, 29 July, 1986 with the pass-fail type of tests, I agree in that sense. But I do feel that parents are more interested in having a benchmark of sorts that they can judge how they see their children performing at school, not just are they beating someone else, but are they performing to an extent that when they go to school, and this has been referred to before, that children from North