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:·l.;:rcn 6, 1980 Tap.: 147 EC - 1 ·~:-,e House ,:1et at 3:00 ?.:1 . :·lr .. Spea.~er ir , t1.e C.~air . MR . SPE~<E?. (2imms) : Order, please! Pursuant to

Section 23(4) of ~~e Par lia!nen t3.ry Commissioner (O!l'.budsman: Act, Special Report No. 2 ~'l the Parl..!..~"!'.entary Co:ro.missioner 'Has received in my office just a short while ago. This report is now being tabled and all r.:err.bers ·.;i:O.l receive a copy of it shortly. STATE:·!E:-lTS BY l-!IlHSTE:KS M."l.. SP;;,"J(E R: The han. t.'-1e ~inister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. YJ't. J. GOUDIE: l-!r. Speaker, as hen. members are aware, ~~e Auditor General in his annual report made certain observations regarding the col!ection of outstanciing loans by the Rural Development Authority.

Of ~~e eighteen accounts cited, nine were excluded fro~ legal recourse to collect upon advice from ~~e Department of Justice. Of ~~e remainder, two accounts were cons~dered to be uncollectable and are awaiting implementation of write-off procedures. This, of ccurse, leaves but seven accounts totallL~g $46,869 on which certain lapses in follow-up have occurred. Collection efforts are being actively pursued.

The Auditor General has further stated that deficiency balances, that is to say accounts on which loan security has been seized and sold without realizing the full ~unt owing, should not be carried as regular accounts receivable. My department has made ongoing attempts to negotiate write-off procedures and positive steps will shortly be taken to implement a standard system for handling the ~~ite-off of receivables.

The Auditor's report questions letters requiring payment being sent to loan clients having deficiency balances, when it has been stated that certain of these balances are not collectable through the legal process. Advice received from the Department of Justice 396

:•~a:c!: 6, 193 J :'ape 147 ::c - " .-:~ . J . ..;.:<.:::.::..: S~!. 1o'!S C:'llj• ~:,a~ •a C~-:>t: ?..:ZS::a collec:~c~ oi ~~~se ~a:~~ces throe~~ ~~e co ~ rcs. =~ r~ ~een s:~~Car~ proce<!.u::e :.ha t. applica:,le ::Uem::s be aevised O'f l:!':.t.e ::, !ollO'•Ii:l<;z ;;;:e sale ::>f ::epos:;ess~d equi;l:.:e:~r., cf che ?r.:>ceecs re.aJzed ;.r.d balM.ce :-e."1a:.:1i~c:.

Collec:t..ion ·~J.s ::oc. ~ee:t p:.:~s::~C., he·,.; ever , beyc~C ~!:1.s s:ep. ~~ le:. -:e: i::. 'i~es~or. ~-s F::.::a:::..ly Ces:.;neC :o aCvise clien:.s ce~ils of ~~e sale c::a:~sacr.~c:~s and ~ ?reclude ~•Y possible areas of mis~:~derstandinq. =liencs ~ ill not. in futu:e he advised ~~at t.hey a:e r·espo~i!; le =o: ?ay:nen~ o: c.e --:;,.c~er.cy =-al~-,.~es t;,at. =all wi~!..n ~,e cate~O~! in ~~es~l.O~ . ! 1,•1.sh ~ i:1:c~ t.!-.e hon. ~ol:Se -c.1ac a:.: ex!.s:.!.:-.a sho rcc o:ni~gs o! ~~e t:.~.:::a: Oevelopt:le.n t.

Au :.hori ty :lave b"!e :"l reco gniz~d by my depa::t.manc ar:.: they a.re curre:~t.ly beir:g dealt. •dt.i': t:A:ouc;~ ap?:-c-pr_iate cha..'\.~els. Lace~ on :..~e 0:-0e .r ?a_?er ~o:a~: ! a: giv1r:g :-.o~ce L~~ an ~~en~•en :. ~~ o1.:r ~c~ ~il: oe p=c?Osec :.o al:o~ fo:: :.he ir:t ::od".lction oE !ormal ::egula~ior.s. O:.r.e r it:e= ···ill also be pro;>c se6 t:hat •..till serve to fur~'H~r scr eaml!.."\ e ti:e operatio n of the R\!.ral Develoomenc Au~~ori:y ar.c assis t in providi~q a:. even ~o r e e::>rnpreher.sive and e~:ecc:.·;e proqra=e . 39 7

March 6, 1980 Ta pe No. 1<:8 SD - 1 ~R. SPEk~ (SL~s) : The hon. member for Torngat ~o~~tains. !"-"<. G. Wl>.P.REN: Mr. Speaker, ! do not know ~f this is ordinary for a minister and the Premier to get up and read rninist~rial statements after the Auditor General's ~eport. There a cou?le of days ago we had ~~e Premier giving reasons why S78, 000 >ias not collected, they were going to :::ollect it. k'ld here we have the minister making a statement of some $46,869 of that is not collected accompanying to seven accounts. MR. S. NEARY: That is the ambulance service in Labrador. 1-'.R. G. w.r. .RR..."'N: Mr.

Speaker, the Auditor General's Report on page 26 he did mention that in the 1977 - 1978 report that he commented on the lack of control of the issuance of loans by the Rural Development Authority, That was in the 1977-78 report. And then he stated that the guidelines establizhed were not followed in all cases. Now, you qo on further and then he said . that ''At. the time of the Wl:'iting of this report (December 3rd, 1979) some twenty-eight months have elapsed since the recommendation, and it appears that ~~e authority is no closer to having regulations then it was at ~'lat time." Mr.

Speaker, any department of government if they are issuing loans for whatever reason and the loans are issued on a ~nthly or yearly basis to be repaid, I am Stlre if the ho~. minister or any other member of ~'lis House would go to the bank and get a loan from the bank to buy a car or anything else they will be required to make their monthly payments or if not the car would be taken from them or probably the mortgage be seized ,.,, t~:::!.r house and so on. So, Mr.

Speaker, reqardless of who the companies are, who the people are,if they are getting loans from the Rural Development Authority they are obliged to pay back the government the same as any other ordinary human being through other channels. I think it is a bit disgraceful to 'll:now that, as the Auditor General said, twenty-eight months have elapsed since he ~r.ade a reco111111endation to ~vernment , and his last sentence, that the authority has not come any clcser to 398

~!arch 6, 1980 Tape So, 14!! SD - 2 MR. G. WAR.~'":'i: agreeing to those regulations. Mr. Speak~r. I am just wondering if the hon. minister, next year when the Auditor General brings in his report, will be making similax statements. 399

!'!arch 6, .!.980 Tap-: no. 149 rL - 1 ~L'l.. SPEAKER (Si:r.rns) : 'the hon. the !--li::ister of Putlic ~vorks l·!R.. !:i. Yum:G: ------ ~!r. Sp,;,~er, ! would liY.e to !l'ake sorr,e corrr.ents concerning the paragraphs in the Peport of the Auditor Gen- eral for the ye"-r ending the llst of ~·arc:-: 1979 .. •hie:: .Fertains to the ~epartment of Public Works.

Puragraph 36 in the Auditor General's ~e- port refers to Disputed ao:>lication of soendina authcri tv. !ls the Aud- itor General points out,for the last several years he has otjected to the transfer of the funds between the subdivisions shown in Pppendix lV of the Estirr.ates. The Auditor General very quickly points out that transfe~ did take place in 197&,1979 with the prior approval cf Treas- ury Board. It is my opinion that Treasury Board, by virtue of che ?ower vested in it under

Section 28 of the fin~~cial Admi~istration Act, has the authority to approve and transfer subdivisions. ;..nd my c:'.epart:nent feels <rery strongly that it needs this flexibility in order to effectively carry out its service mandate. Jls the House is aware, !'.r. Speaker, the Department of Public Works and Services has a >.·ide range of responsibilities for the construction, alteration ~~d maintenance in all ~overnrnent build- ings in the province. In addition, it has certain responsibilities in the rrzny buildings or portions of buildings which Government leases.

The Department must he able to respond, therefore, on virtually a day- to-day basis to the many changing demands for maintenance, alterations and other services from the departments whom we serve. In paragraph 37, Mr. Speaker, the Aud- itor General refers to a duplicate payment in the amount of $13,877 to a construction company in connection with work done by thLt company in the C.A. Pippy Park. I must confirm to the House that I agree that this is a factual and valid criticiEm, b~t hasten to add that, as the Auditor General points out, t~e ~ney has been recovered from the contractor in question.

Since 1977, when this incident took place, the Department has made substantial progress in the streamlining and mocern- 400

~a~:::i: 5, 1980 Tape No. 2.49 C:L - 2 ~~~ H. YOt~G ~ ization of its oroject control an~ accounting procedures. ~~e Ve~ar~~ent is presently i~ the final £tages of implementing a new computerized financial rna~agewent sys- tem. ~Y officials have asked the Auditor General to carry out a thor- a'.lgh review of this systerr., and sugc;est any r..odifications that he rray feel a~e re~uired i~ order to achieve the degree of financial control t~at he considers necessary. The ~.uC.itor General has recer.tlv consen~- ed to ca~ry out t:1is reviev. l. 401

:-! ar cl;. 6 , 1980 "!'a? e He. 15 0 ~Hl - 1 MR . S PEA K~ R (Sinm

s) The hen. rn~nber fo r Terra ~ova. :•lrt. T. LUSH : Mr.

S?eaker, t·,:~at ir.. esse nc e '"'.a are talking about here is this Assembly ap~rovinq es~imat~s for a particular department a~d finding out that i~deed t ~ ey are spent in another ce?ar~ment which ,as I understand it we approve estimates for the Department of Public Works and to !ind out that they are soent in some other depart~ent which is really approving for 'a' and !inding out tha~ it is spent unde~ 'b' which really means it is in a way mis· appropriation of funds.And though I agree,as the Auditor General points out,that certainly within the Department of Public Works there must b~ a fair amount of flexibili~y with respect to the day to day demands that come to the department, but still I think that if we are going to carry on the tradition of parliament whereby this House approv~s certain ~xpenditures for particular departments, well then we have to abide by that rule and even though, as I said 1 there has ts be scme flexibilit~ where do we draw the line?

The Auditor ~eneral specifically points out that he agrees that there should be some flexibility but he says he is firmly opposed to the transferring of capital funds, and by this he refers to monies for building, construction and alterations, either between heads or non-capital uses. ~ow, the thing is, of course, what I do not know at the moment is whether or not the transfer of th9se payments were indeed made for the points that the Auditor-~eneral particularly alludes to. Ifit does,certainly that is very serious and it is a matter that we shall have to look into.

It is a matter which we will have to address ourselves to. Again the Auditor General refers us to appendix four ~f the Estimates, and I have taken a look at these but with such quick notice I can hardly see what kinds of transfers there ~ere. But 1 again, I think 402

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March 6, 1980 Tape No. 151 :m- 1 '"!R. SP2AX.2~: (Siro.!ns) Order, 9le~s2.! I am sure that all han. menbers '""auld like to welcome to ~~e gallery today three co~~unity councillors fr~m Long Island, Green 3ay; ~r. W. A. Rideout, who is chairman of the council, and councillors Croucher and Colbourne. SOME HON. !'.EMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEJ\KER: The han. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Before we qo or-, I wanted to table, as I had indicated I would before the galleries were opened to the public, a letter to me from the senate of the Legislature of Nebraska commencing Canadians on their heroic efforts to have some people removed from Tehran a little while ago and a similar kind of resolution from the Legislature of the state of Nashington, the Senate of i'lashi!",gton, and I table this f~r hon. members' perusal and to indicate that we have some friends below the forty-ninth parallel and welcome the me~~ers from Long Island. NR.

SPEA...'<ER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, I have no wish to prolong the Statements by Ministers and the like, but I am sure the Premier would not object if I ~~de two observations with regard to these complimentary letters from the various legislatures. one is, of course, that I think that I can take some personal pride, no doubt the man in Nebraska was not aware of the fact that I would be here as the person who appointed the -~~assador who did that splendid job in Iran, hut the other point is far more important - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! I'.R.

JAI•IIESON: But far more important than that is the fact that there was at least one Newfoundland lady involved and maybe two in that exercise and I think it is anohter example of where Newfoundlanders have performed extremely well in very difficult circumstances around the world. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEfi.KER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, no question about it that I think we all appreciate that the Leader of the Opposition in the former 404

~lar::h 6, 1920 Tap-2 No. 132._ ~~~:-1 - 2 P~:~~UBR ?~CK.FO?D: position can claim some responsibility for ~hat. in thc.-c he did appoint ~i:n 3~d 7~>~-e t.~ar:k the LEE'd.:.er of the Opposition ::or that and. acknowl'2dge it -,lhclehearteGly, no ·questior .. Of sourse there w·as also ar..other laC.v i:!1vclved t~:.a.t ~·Ta.3 I'2.o:-:-a ~·1acDor:ald. I - O?..~_L C':UE.3~IO~IS: )1R. ~PEA"<'.E3.. (Si~s): The han. Le3~er of the Opposition. 405

Harch 6,1950 Tape No. 152 AE-1 MR. JA~IESON: Mr~ Speaker, a very good lead into my question, Speaking about ladies, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheirner) with regard to the Matrimonial Property Act. I ~ave no doubt that I am no~ alone in getting an increasing number of representations and enquiries and expressions of concern from various parties throughout the Province as to implementation of ~he act and the informational programme which, in the period immediately proceeding Christmas recess 1 the han. minister indicated that he was going to bring forward.

Now we have only a matter of less, I suppose, than three months before the actual act itself goes into effect.Although I may have a supplementary ~uestion as to the timing,in the meantime could the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) indicate at what point the planning is for the massive or - perhaps that is to exaggerated a word - but the substantial publi~ity campaign and informational campaign to which the government i< committed~ MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. OTTENHEIMER: The hen. Minister of Justice. Mr.

Speaker, the act is due to come into effect or proclaimed July lst, or whatever is the next working day thereafter. Actually the first part of it, the newspaper advertisments are due to appear this weekend, I believe, in this weekend in areas where there is a daily newspaper and the next issue in areas where there are weekly newspapers. This will be followed up by radio and television promotion. The department is preparing a pamphlet in a question and ans~er format which will be generally available to everybody in the Province.

They will be made available at certain central locations and also people by writing in or phoning in will be able to get a copy. So the first aspect of it, which will be newspapers advertisments, is due this weekend and the pamphlet will be available within ~ period of about two weeks,and the newspaper advertisments 406

~!arch 6 , 1990 ~iR. OTTENHE IMER: television. MR. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) :_4~ . J A:·! I E.

SON: Tape :-lo . 152 AH-2 wil l be : oll cwed by :a~io a~ci .~ Sl,.lpplemer.t.ary. ~he ho n. ~ eaCe = ~ ~ t~e Oppositio~ . ! m.i;h t.. b-y 'J'C 'f of an observ.a1:ion suggest that a househcld maile~ wcul~ noc be ouc of o~ ~ ~r in a esse l i~ e ~his rather th~n have i c a~ so~e ?Oi~c because o= th~ ~aLlu~e so~e~imes far the ?eOple t~ know w~at is ava l !able ::o t h e l:l . aut a~o~~er q~esc1or., is ~ here - I am ~o ~ a lewyer so I do no~ know che p r ecise wor6s bu~ is c here a pe rio ~ o~ q:ace o r a~ychin9 of that natc~e prov1ded !or~o~ ~ ilL there be so me k i ~O of allowa~ ce rn a d e fo~ Lhose who have ~ o t totally c0~9lied or we re not bble to by t~e ~1rst of July ? l reali~e that: 407

i~are-"1 6, 1980 Tape 153 EC - 1 NR. w. JA:HESOli: at -s-:;:ne 90int it n::-.s to ccrr.£ into effect, but I assure the hon. :linister - and 1..rhile he ~ay not ~e aware of it pe~sonall y , I ~~i~~ man y m ew~ers on both sides are - ~ ~ at particularly in rural areas ~~is nas qone by virtually unknown, and what concerns me is ~~at people will, quite wi~~ou~ their knowledge o= without their awareness 1 find themselves in so~e way or o~~er in breach of the law.

An d I am wonderi n~ if there is a mechanism which,out of compassion, if you lL~e, or reasonableness, that could be provided whe~eby these kinds of persons would not in fact feel the full weight of whatever penalties 1 or whatever ~~e case ~i ght be,for an inter in or a reasonable period. HR. SPEA..'<ER (Shuns) : HR . G. OTTEmiEDIER : The han. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, there are a co uple of ~~ings I probably should say in response to the question of the han. the Leader of the Opposition. First, it is due to be );reclaimed July lst and, of course, once it is proclaill'ed it i.s in fact 1then, the law.

Now, it is not, of course, the type of si~uation in which, you know, there are penalties in the usual sense. Now, as hen. members will recall, the provisions are there and they govern the disposition of matrimonial property after the proclamation of July 1st, but there is ~~e option L~at any couple may contract out ~•d may so arrange ~~eir affairs as thsy wish. But they will in fact have to contract ou~ in order net to be brought under the provisions of the act. So in s~~, once it is proclaL~ed it is immediately effective, but,as hen.

I!'embers will recall, there is a provision whereby any couple may contract out of the provisions and make their own arrangements. MR. D. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER: the Opposition. MR. D. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon . the Leader of I am perfectly well aware that the 408

~'arch C , 10 ·3·J "ia.~e :-7o .l54 ~ ~-; - 1 ~·tR. n. JA~~::.:so~:: hen. minister is sy~~athetic and consequent~~ t~are ~ ~ nothing argunentative i~ -~hat ! am sa?i~q. ~ do noint out to hi~ howeve~ that in rural areas in par~ic 11lar 1 and I ~appen to ~9~resent one and many ~embers in this House do 1·~,;ae~e ~:tel legal niceties, !£ you wish, are not that easily procura~le even if the cou~le or the tousehold concer~ed is totally :a~ilia~. That is iteP. number one.

I would li~;e to ask whether or not,for instance, in a case like that ~ here uncicubtedly 1 I sus?ect,menbers o~ this Eouse will find t~~mselves acting perhaps in a quasi-advisory capacity to many couples, Cecause I have had a nunber of them myself al~eadyJwhet~er the process. of, let us say, contracting out,to use that as an exarnple 1is underway tut it has not been compleced.

I realize that there is a difficul~y but I am just t~ying to find out how, i= an event occurs, let us say the death of a spouse on the 2nd. or 3rd. of July or something of that nature, and the attempt has been underway to correct the situation or to comply with the -"'ct 1 is there some kind of mechanism that the hon. minister could look at to see that those situations do not cause undue hardship when there is no intent to avoid the legis- lation. Would he at least look at that to if something can be done? ~R. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: The hen. Minister of Justice. Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I will cer- tainly do that. As hen. members are aware,and I am sure the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) is aware of it with matrimonial property,and indeed with everything, there has to be a date at which it is operative. Now there is,of course, a fair area of judicial discretion there within the Act and one could not prejudge how that 409

·!a::c:t ~ . i~S~ ':'a?e ::o . 15.: :l: : - 2 !-lR. ~ ~ O':':!~ i?-:E: :t!:R: would be exe:c~ee . 3-~c it ce: ~ai~ ly !s a ~ac:er ~~1eh we ~il! give co~s~~e~A:io~ o! t~e hon . ~e~~le~ a~ 's s~ag~s:io~ of se~=~ng a CO?Y ~~:ou~~ hoJsehold =ail, c~a~ ~ocld be to e ~er y ~o ~ s~hold i:'l t~e tro·.rir.c~.

I ~ ~s cectai~ly a ve=y ~o =:~w hile o~e . ocher ~or js. wha ~ we will be ~ol~q th ere obviously is :~s ~ :aC of sayi~c to eve~ybo~y. ':!you ~~s~ 3 copy :e ~ us know eicher by writin e or pho~i~g toll !ree;~•cause ~e we=e ~~i~kinc of . i n ~he ~~rst ins:ance, a~ve~tise­ ~en~s of e~~~ ~y ~e w~ich wocld i~vi:9 peo? :e eo ~~~~e ~n ~: they wanted a copy an ~ the~ at a late: dace a ~oll fr ee, Zen~ c ~ ~~~be r ~o phone ~r.. 410

ll'.arch 6, 1980 Tape t<o. 155 SD - 1 ~R. G. OTTENHEIMER: Ce~ainly the other would assure that everybody had it. Obviously receiving one is not going to insult anybody if they do no want it or need it,then they can burn it or do what they wish,but certainly that is worth a try. You know, one's first reflection was that that might be extremely expensive. Of course, it might make unnecessary a lot of the a~tertising asking people to write in if they ~ant one if everybody automatically got one. So that is certainly something we w~ll give very serious thought to. ~. D. JrlMIESON: M.~.

SPEAKER (Simms) : the Leader of the Opposition. MR. D. J~~IESON: A final supplementary, Mr. Soeaker. A final supplementary, the hon. I am not sure if this excee~s the right of ~~e Minister of Justice (ll'z. G.

Ottenheimer) or the Attorney General to give legal advise,but a simple, straight­ forward question: Can the contracting out procedure be made in the proper form without in fact getting legal assistance or legal advice because if a demonstration could be given to people as to how they cauld put themselves on the side of the law by agreeing to a particular form,either before an MBA or a Justice of the Peace or something like that, is there a provision for that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTI'ENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, as to the first part of the question, yes, people may contract out or set up their own agreement without recourse to a lawyer and without cost.

And certainly I have not seen the latest draft of the pamphlet which is being prepared but a sort of simple, let us say, or domestic contract take fictitious circumstances as an example would certainly be very worthwhile,but I would repeat,becaose it is a very important point 1and that is that a couple may devise riqht out in lonq hand and sign their own contract dealinq with the disposition of their property upon the dissolution~of the ma=iage By dissolution ,I should say 1 because a lot of 411

..,arc h 6, 198 0 Ta.pe Xo . lSS SJ - 2 M."t. G. OT'!'ENHEIM!:'R: people think that means automatically divorce or separation, in ninety- I do not know -four, five, six maybe up to nine per cent of cases that means death of one of ~~e spouses. When the 5rriage C9~ to an end ,through Qeath or whatever means,the property is disposed of. So a couple may, without recourse to a lawyer or any expense 1agree amonq themselves and put on paper and sign how they wish by agreement ·the property to be disposed off when one or the other has died or for some other reason the marriage has come to an end. 412

Ylarch 6, 1980 ~1R. SPEAKER (Sim!ns) Grand Bank. :1R. !.. THOMS: Tape No. 156 Nl1 - l )!._ new question, the han. member for 11r. Speaker, this may have been answered just a moment ag'~ although sometimes I hav·e great difficulty following the logic of the l1inister of Justice - MR. OTTENHEIMER: I do i1ot know why. The han. gentleman is the only one. MR. THO!'-S: Will the minister undertake to make sure that there is a pro forma contract that will go out to every householder in this Province? ~- Speaker, I am asking the Minister of Justice (~~- ottenheirner} a question. I wuuld certainly like his attention. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: MR. THOMS: MR. :JTTEN:IEIME:R: MR. TH01-IS: The han. gentleman has my undivided attention. I obviously did not. (Inaudible} . Mr. Speaker, I think the television coverage on the south Coast of this Province is certainly not going to pay dividends because with all the satellite stations and everything out along the Coast of course they are not getting television and I sugge2t that at this point in tL~e anyway it is probably going to be a waste of money.

So will the minister undertake to make sure that there is a pro forma opting out contract that will go out with the pamphlets, and further 1 whether or not the minister has considered disseminating this info::cmation in these pamphlets through the high schools throughout this Province, who can bring this information then into the home and do a good job of it. MR. SPEAKER: A.."l nON. MEMBER: MR. THOMS: suggest it die. MR. OTTENHEIMER: The han. Minister of Justice. How about kindergarten? If the han. me~L~r were in kindergarten I Mr.

Speaker, I think to get universal coverage that the household mail would be preferable. I mean,there are couples without children. So I certainly agree with the objective but I 413

:•ta ::ch 6, l9GO :'ape ~o . !Sf. 1>:-1 - - XR . O'ITE!W-2I:·:S~ : ~~~nk ~he household ~ail, as suggestec =Y t~e hon . teade:: or ~he Opposition (~ . Janieson), ~~~ld be p::e~e::acle . ~~d we will ce::tainly ~ncertake to put in an example of a comestic contract . ~ow I k~o~ what ~he hen . gentleman is as~L~g is r.ot ~~ac~ly ~he ~e because ! t~L~k ~r.at ~e is asking ~s a ?~O !o~A one, so::-: of li~e t:hese wil:s one buys a: F.:~ . \'iooV,IOrt~. '!'hat is a possibility bu t ~ do not kno w t~at it ~~uld accompl~sh much because, you know,.., hat: ·.-ould yo1.1 put in .l.:: aFa rt from :::1e =act oi a headinc;.

"oc::resti:: cont:ra~ : <~::d eo:.-n at: the bot::om ,"sign he::e. • I ar.: no:: !::eing :aceeiocs . ~~c r am ~ot sure th~c it ~oulj ac~o~pl~sh ~~ch. Buc ~e ~ i ~l cert..ai:1ly c.o:1sici er i: . A.~ exat'\ple c~nair'\l~l ~?f a ~om -eseic: concrac~ I thi:M is very , ver:y valid an-: ! ! a:n not saying a pl"o forma would not be wort.h.,.•hile , I •:ill ju11t have to thin< about it. a l:u because the re ~i;h~ be r.o~hinq ~ore :o it tha~ a ~ead~~q . 41 4

:·larch o, 19 80 Tape 157 EC - 1 l•!R. G. OTTENHED!ER: I am not sure that you cculd put much more in a ~ro forna than a heading saying what it was ru1d a place for ~~e people's signatures, b~t we will certainly give it consideration. ~Lq. S. i'lEARY : Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. !-JR. SPf:A.'<ER (Simms) A new question, ~~e han. the ~e~ber for LaPoile. 1-iR. S. NEA?.Y : Mr. Speaker, my question is for the han. ~•e Premier, Sir. In view of the fact that the Minister of Fisheries (~:r. J.

Horgan) thinks that one of his responsibilities is leaking out little bits and pieces of information from Otta'lla, ~'l.e latest one in co11nection with the curtailing of the salmon fisher] in this Province - and he thinks his duty ends there - would the hen. the Premier tell the House what ~'l.e position of the provincial government is in connection with the cur~iling or bru1ning of the commercial salmon fishery in this Province? ~- Speaker, would the hen. gentleman- I am asking the Pra~ier a question. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A refusal by a minister to answer a question is not subject to debate or questioning. MR. S. NEARY: answer the question? Minister of Fisheries, then. MR. SPEAKER: member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Well, is the hen. the Premier going to Well, I will put my question to the A new question, the hon. the Would the hon. gentleman tell us what the official position of the Newfoundland Goverrunent is - SOME HON . MEMBERS : MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MP.. S. NEARY : Oh, oh! Oh, he is sulking again now!

Order, please: - what the official position of the Prcvince is in connecting with the curtailing or banning of the commercial salmon fishery in ~~is Province? 415

!-!arc=: 6, 1380 Tapa 137 LC - 2 ~·lR . SPEA,.:{Z~ (=i~.!'1S) 'l'~e h~n . t~e :!i~ister c·: =i.s~e.ries. 11?... J.. :·!ORGA~l: ~1r. Speaker, it is difficult to take any position. v1e :io :.ot k:>ow a:>y cer~ain position taken ::,y t."le fecieral govern~nt .. SO!£ HON. ~~:SP£ : !1R. ,T. :40?.GA N : Hear, hear! ~he situation today is very comp lex inde2d, becau se there is no se~ forward policy comi~g out cf O~~awa in conneccicn '~ith t.':le commercial sal:r.o:> fishery.

We kno'" there is sorr.e problel:'. with t..'-le sal!:'.on stocks in J:~tlantic Canada; that has been, I th ink, pointec out quite clear ly by all concerned.

The recent infornacion received by a salmon association more involved with the sports aspect of t.':le fishery ~an t."le cornmerci~l as?ect, indicates to them that there will be some curtailrnen~ or restrictions on t."1e Newfoundland fishery in particular - it specified tr.e Newfoundland commercial fishery. ~he Salmon Advisory Beare appointed by the federal government is in the process of dealing wit.':! the mat~er, bu t I am not satisfied wit.':l the way they are dealing wit."! it, based on t.':le fact there have been no meetings held of that board and you c~•not make decisions without meetings.

The next meeting 'iill be held the end of March ; however, the commercial salmon f~shery starts the middle c= May in our Province and it is important to have decisions made as soon as possible to let the fishermen know as to exactly what ~~e situation will be; like, for example, the preparation of their gear, the purchase of new gear, etc. Our position to date is that if t.~ere are any adverse effects whatsoever or any affects on restrictions in the commercial salmon fishery, that minimum adverse effects be on the bona fide commercial fishermen in our Province. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary 1 the han. the member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hen. gentleman is no doubt aware that,in the past few years, salmon fishermen in this Province, 416

:·!Arc:-. 6 1 Ha;) 1'a.?e 157 EC - 3 ~!:::t . s. :~.~\": especi~lly o~ c~e So~~.~es~ Co~s~, ~ave hac ~~eir sea~o~ re cu cec a~d cney have ~ad c::i:~ ne~~~,~ s~c?pe ~ cc lee C.:~e sa lc:o n go -:o t..~e Sai:~-: J'oCt:t anC ~li~a=..i.Cl. Rive.=s c·.,·u in ~-e ·,; 3~·a:\S"~ic.~, ~·here -:..~c :u.ur..:)e:' o: eotnme~cial lice!".C-!!S ~o:- co:nt"te:-cial sal-mon :isn~ng i:1 t-~e ?=ovi:1c ·e has inc~easeC , ~'le r:c:mbe= o! S?cn!' !ishing salnon licences have i.nc:-eas£6. and ou= !:is~smen ;.ere ~a\•e l::een p.m:.shed oecause of :.his . Ar.d I una ers~ar.d t.'"le rivers over c.'"!ere ce ?Olluted . So 1 :·!r.

S;:eaker , what: :i: am tr-Ji:lg ~ ask the !"Jon. gen .-cle::!an is: Tr.e hon. gentleman must: be aware of this and cs~ainly ~e prov~nc:al ~ove~en t - the Gove~~ent: cf ~ew Brunswick has a pclicy; anc ~~en the ?::-e:n.ier has policies on ~h.e ~or-:.:-,ern cod Sl:.OC~ a...,c eve=Y othe::- t.~L~g :..n reladon to t:he :ishery - sc::-el:,· :."lis government he re .,..o;.~l6 not: st:ar.d by an: let: c.'\e sal>r.on c;;o through tr.e Gul! over :.o :.IB'-' Srunswici: 1 a.-~d c= ::.s heroen wa:.c.lar:g t.'le;, S"-'i:n ove: 1 a:-.d !"lave ~:o:.al bar..ning or 6.::-asti.:: c:-.:r~ailmen-c o:' ~:be salr.cn !is!\ery i:'l ~~is P::-ovi nce.

I am aski-:tc; tl-.e !:c:'l. gentle!nan w:::a~: t:..'le c;ove rfll:len t' s ,?OS.l. tio:'l is o.-1 c. us :nat ::e:? 4 1 7

:·2.~ch [., 1960 Tare 'io .. 153 t.L - 1 :•'R . SFE.".KER (Si!':U!"S) : The hon. the ~~nister of E'"isheries M?.. J. ~·fORG~.N : ~r. Speaker, I thoGg!\t I ~~de it quite clear that we do not want any adverse effects or. the co~JC .ercial salmor. fishery in our province. The question of interce9tion of the salmon that is so-called to be in~ercepted in our f'rcvince o~ the •;ay to rivers in Ne~; Brunswick is a complex one.

It has not been 'iddressed adequately to date. ~;e were hopinq that t!\e Salmon Board will deal with it adequately over the next numl::er of weeks; how­ ever, the senior officials of the federal department who advised the out-going minister or ~he minister ,.-ho just l.:;ft the department, ~tt. McGrath,and I assurre: now going to advise the new minister, ~·r.LeE'lanc, they drafted ~hat they call a blueprint on ~tlantic salmon rnanagemer.t.

Now that blueprint is now in place in Ottawa, yet for some stranqe rea­ son, and I say for so~e strange r~ason, our provincial Department of Fisheries is unable to obtain a copy of that blueprint to ze atle to formulate any official final position on that matter. I think it is a very important one and a matter that should be discussed as soon as possible. So if there is no final confirmation in reply to the telegram sent yesterday to the officials,realizing ~tt.

LeBlanc is moving back in the department, no official confirmation back frQm them confirming the information we have now received in­ directly, I will be seeking a meeting to discuss a n~~er of matters with the new federal minister, Mr. LeBlanc,and I am hoping to be able to disc1l$8 that very topic with him some time in the month of March. MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): member of LePoile. MR. S • NEARY: A final supplemercary, Hr. Speaker. A final supplementar y, the hen . the Will the hon. gentleman indicate to the House if the Provincial c~vernment will ma ke a strong protest to the 418

~!area 6, 1980 Tape No. 158 EL - 2 1·1R. S. NEARY: Sal~n Board or the Department of Fisheries,or whoever is responsible,that Newfoundlanders will not be discriminated against in this rratter and that there will not be total banning of the corr~ercial salmon fishery because even though ~~ey may compensate the fishermen,which has not been mentioned at all yet, I do not like to see a total ban and compensation paid because you will never get the fishery back.

So, will there be a strong protest to the appropriate agency or department of government to see that New­ foundlanders will not be discriminated against in this matter? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. J. HORGAN: The han. the Minister of Fisheries Mr. Speaker, without again going to have to be labled in the future as a !1'.an ••ho picks fights with Ottawa, and is labled by the opposition the last two or three years of picking fights over transportation matters in particular, I can assure this hen.

House that if Morgan was a fighting wan on transportation matters, ~e will be fighting much greater on the salmon and fishery matters in our province . SO$ HON . ~!EMBERS : XR. SPEAKER (Simms) : HR. F. WHITE: Hear, hear! The hon. the merr~er of Lewisporte My question is for t~e ~irister of ~ines and Energy(L.

Barry) and it deals with the 3Uspending of trading by a number of companies on the stock exchange since the last day or so and also the announcement by Mobil Oil concerning the Ben Nevis well, and I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether or not the government plans an announcement to coincide with the one made by ~~bil yesterday in Alberta? MR. SPEAKER (Sili'JI>S) : .energy. MR. L. BARRY: The hon. the Minister of Mines aod Mr.

Speaker, as far as I can deter- mine, the only announcements made by Mobil yesterday was -several, ... ... - actually; ttiere was rrcre than one announcement~ ~ere several rrade to 419

:·!arc!: 6, 1920 T a~: e ~~v • 1 5 2 :':!.. - 3 ~~R. L. EARP~Y~ try ar.S. ~,oi:~t out that there ·_,,·a.s nothing ur.usc.l that they v-:ere aware of t!12t could :tave leC. to -:.~1e very siqnificar.t i~ ~crease in share price, not just theirs but others invol·.:eC. i:1 ~he Hibe!:'nia field ·,.,rhich have taker; 9lace aver ":he ~o3st several days. 420

March 6,1980 Tape No. 159 AH-1 MR. BARRY: And ~t appears what is happening, Mr. Speaker, is that there is a tremendous amount of interest in what is happening off Newfoundland in the petroleum field and there are rumours which develop and there are - I had heard a week ago, more than a week ago,that on the street,as they say, the people speculating in the stock market had it that there was going to be a big announcement yesterday. I was not aware of any big announcement that was coming out yesterday.

As far as I can see no big announcement did come out yesterday,but Mobil was forced to, because of the suspension of trading of its shares,forced to make a comment and I believe the comment that it made was just to point out, as I did, that whatever the rumour on the street about the big announcemen~, there was no big announcement yesterday. And even thought we are optimistic and things are moving in the right direction and there will be further announcements at later dates 1 how do you react to a rumour,or when somebody asks you to comment on a rumour what do you say? !1R. WHITE: MR .

SPEAKER iSimms}: member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: A supplementary. A supplementary. The han. Mr. Speaker, this supplementary sort of deals with what I was askins the minister yesterday, and it :i.s this: Is the minister in constant contact with those companies concerning announcements that they are going to make and is he aware of the contents beforehand of what the announcements are going to be? MR. SPEAKER: Energy. MR. BARRY: The han. Minister of Mines and Mr.

Speaker, it is a term and condition of the permits which the oil companies hold that they co-ordinate the release of information with us and I have to 421

:1a!"ch c,l9a o '!'apll No . 159 AH-2 i'lR . Bn::aRY: say chat: in : bal~eve all cas2s .,.,e . have haC prelirninar"j clearance o:: :t:ot:ices c.hat. ::.~e issu'!C by c~e oil co~panies. They telex che ~~sc of t~e announcemenc before it is released an~ raach ag~eement «ith us as ~o ti~ing. ~e have noc always ~een happy,however ,witb th~ amoun~ of noc ic e :~at we have b~en giv~n before an announceme~t is ~ade.

For example,wa have ~nown in so~e cases ~or a week or ~en days tha~ we woulC have to make ~n an~o~~cem~~c dt some point, somethin~ had happ~~e~ wich re ~9 ect ~o thq AX~lo:a ~i on prosramm e, and we have had just a reatcer of hours ~otice . i~ ~orne cas~s , :rom the . companies, · -er.ey say ;·~e r..~ant to ':n.a-k~ th~ r~lease this afternoon ." The usual a!:gument: that they make is that••we have to do ic because our shares are suspended, the s~ock exchange is insisc~ng e~ac w~ make a stacement·~and we ~ave ~o cry and unde:-s-cand the difficult ~ositions .:ney fir.C. t:'lem~elves :!.n.

Sue we h~ve made ic absclu~ely clear co the companies chac ~e wane co have the fullest: possible not:ice be:ore any announceme:1cs •re made,and any announcemen~s have co be co -ordinaced with us. This one yesterday, now, I underscand chere were at~em?tS to reach me and ! was in the Hoase at t:he time before the announcement: was made . 422

:·!arch 6, 19-SC Tape ~:o . l6U !-rA - 1 ~::R . 3.\RRY: :'his c:t~e o:: ar..n.:luce:lE-~t: is r.o~ :eal:y t:he so:t: of chi!'\g ~''l! are coo cc:'\cE:r:'led abou-; getting ?re-cll!a:a!lce on and cha~ is :us~ a response or a reac~ion co a ~~~our in the :M:kec :;>lace . ~~. SP~~R (Simm s) : Eor ::.e·,<ispon:e . MR . NHITE : if r - :·:R . S?Z:,>_-:r:~: ;. final supplemencary, the hor. . mem.ber ~!r .

Speaker, I i:ave c•110 more sup?ler!e:'lca:ies t>ell , I '!I!:! afraie ::ou will ~·;e t:o puc the.~ quickly because che:r:e is only a~uc -:wo l!li:'lutes remaining. ~:R. liEITE: ilell,! ·..,ill tie tht!r.l all in togP.ther, ~tr . Spea."e:. :·!R . SPEA.I(ER: '!es . :o!R . t·:r;:ITE : First o: all is che cliniscer sa;:i:lg, ! ;:tean oaybe he can clarify chis point , that the Ncw!o~~dl~~ Gove rnment: O:'\ly make a:'\nouncements when they are told to do so by che o~l com9 an ies , a."ld the second, I .. 'Onc:!er if ti1e - :-t.<t . 5A.."l:R'!: (Inaudible) the opposi den •..roulc ( in=.uciole) . ~!."Ct .

WHITE : - ! ~on der, ~!r. Speaker, if che go v e~cnt plans to have a represe:'ltative at tile La'"' oE the sea Co!'l Eere r:ce in New York in view of statements made by fol~er colleagues oE the ministe r, or. Pat:ton yeste rda y in Nova so~1:ia and sotr.e !lugges-....ion by Allan Seazl ey , the Can.adia:t !'legotiator 1 1:!la:: ::he ~:ew:o~~dland clair.\ , ar.c! inc!eec the Canadi an claim to offshore ~esourc es mig~t be cr~l lenged ~Y some third ~o.'Orld countr ies at the Law of the Sea conference . MR . Sl?EA."<E R: :-IR. BARR'! : Th e hon. ~ini ster of Mines and ~:'\e rqy. l·!r .

Speaker, the first question does not rea_lly me rit an answer because it is a stupid comment cy the ho n. me~r rather than a ~uestion . SOME HON . MEM3ERS : Oh , oh ! MR. SPSA.'<ER: O:r:de:, pleas e! 423

:.larch 6, 1980 Tape No . 160 N~1 - 2 MR. 3AP-RY: I will say, !1r. Speaker, and I eoxplained yesterday that the information which is obtained by the spending of hundreds of millions of dollars is proprietary information of the companies involved which,under our regulc.tions and legislation,we are not at liberty, and no government operates this way, to treat this as their information to be distributed at their whim. loJe co­ ordinate responsibly the release of information with these companies. Now that is the bottom line. we do not ask their permission. \•/e do not follow their orders.

We co-ordinate jointly the release of information with respect to oil and gas exploration. On the second question, the hen. me~ber reveals a misunderstanding of the situation with respect to international law that I am afraid is also prevalent in the media.

The existing international law position under the 1958 Geneva Convention is that Canada,and Newfoundland as the responsible party within Canada, has the right to explore and exploit, and this is the actual language of the convention, the Continental Shelf out to a depth of 200 metres, or to the limits of exploitability, which at that time they did not think could be much beyond 200 metres.

But the existing international law,in other words,is that we have exclusive rights to explore and exploit to the very edge of the continental margin which in some cases off Newfoundland is 450 miles or more and there is no ohligation to share revenue with anyone on that. SO.M.E HON. MEt-I.BERS: MR. BARRY: Hear, hearJ What has been happening,and this has been happening over a number of years, as the hen. Leader of the opposition (Mr.

Jamieson) knows, ~ former Minister of External Affairs since the Law of the Sea Conference opened there has been discussions on many items under this 1958 Geneva Convention and there has been an attempt made by certain landlocked countries who do not have continental shelves to try and get some form of revenue sharing for continental shelves outside the 200 mile limit. MR. SPEAY.ER: Order, please! 424

:-!~ch 5, li'~O Tape :.:o . 160 '::·l - 3 ~~~ . E.3,?~Y : That l3 no : a rule o! :~~er~ot~oral - :-!? . :rEA~ : The Speaker called or~er . S~t do~~ . ~lR . 6A.R.~': : 3y leave , 5us~ a ~nute or half a ~u~e . :~R. S?'="!i.KE~: (Si.·•,::~s} 3y leav-~. Y~~· OTTE!III!E-':t:!\ : Good s~uf:. C-ood stuff . :~ . Si\R.'>':' : ~here 1s no need :or a se! ec ~ ~orr~i~~e~ ; I k:tow ,,..:ha~ t=-:e law is and ! a:\ just try in~ ~o set it out clea ::l y ..

SO~!E HON . :-!E~IBE:RS : or. . oh! ;;_~ Hml . ~""~:S~R: :·ll":a: about the cons::it:.~ciona! la:.'Ye=s? ~SR. 3J..?RY : No coneescl r: is a ~at~r of lnte~~a~io~al ~ law in any event., .;;o .1.! -::ons:::!.::uti:mal la\"Yers disa<;; ree, ~·cu lmo ~, ::hey '} have to tai<e second ?lace to inte rl'.ational lawyerli. !;:.~t as far as the La•"' o! the Sea Con !e::ence is o;oncerned, ::he reles have not c~.ged .

Internatio ~a l law has not yet changed ~ut there is an ~::::e~pt ::o brir.q about a c!l a:lge and we have com.'l\unica tea ~·ith the oepa.r-.:ment o: External Affairs, ~,e m!nister, and we are co~~•icating aga~n with the r.ew ~n1ste~ ~~ ~hin the next Cay or so ~o u~Ce~:i~e 425

L ~arch 6, 1980 Tape No. 161 SD - 1 ~R. L. El'.:RRY: and stress how important it is to Canada and to Newfoundland that we, our delegation at the Law of the Sea Conference , fight tooth and nail ag2inst any such attempt to force revenue sharing outside 200 miles. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Questions has expired. MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear. Order, please! The time for Oral NOTICES OF MOTION The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. J. GOUDIE: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend T~e Department Of Rural, Agricultural And Northern Development Act". MR. SPEAKER: MR. D. J~ESON: PRESENTING PETITIONS The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, I h•ve the great honour this afternoon,or certainly I am more then pleased to be able to present a petition signed by 974 - I was going to say residents of my constituency of Bellevue 1but I think on perusal of the petition it will be discovered that at least half of them are constituents of the hon. the Minister of ~ansportation and Communications North (Mr. c.

Brett). the member for Trinity This is a petition and I wuld like to read the prayer of the petition, RThat we, the undersigned , humbly petition Her Majesty's Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to pave the twenty miles of highway No. 204 commonly known as the southwest Arm Road. This road serves nine communities, is used by six school buses and over 400 local vehicles 1 and serves as the only outlet for a very important fishing area. " And the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan), I have no doubt, is perfectly 426

!o!arch 6, 1980 Tape No. 161 SD - 2 MR. D. J';JA.IESON: well aware of this and the deterioration that takes place with the fish being transportee over this deplorable highway as it presently exists. "Even though it took the last nine years," the petition says, "to upgrade this road, its present condition is deplorable and an insult to those who are forced to use it. In comparison with roads of adjacent areas , Highway 204," and I am using the words of L~e petition, "is completely out of focus." Mr.

Speaker, I do not know whether L~e hon, members opposite would have been all that distressed, but I can confirm the fact that we very nearly lost the Leader of the Opposition two Saturday nights ago on this particular highYay. I had occasion to drive on it and I can confirm everything that is in it because on t~~ occasions during the drive I found myself in a very hazardous position because it is so bad.

Now there was a committment made some time ago to both upgrade and pave this road and I emphasize once again that there are a number of residents and business community representatives from Clarenville and area who have signed this because, cf ~curse, Clarenville is the centre now, the shopping centre and the retail centre and the business centre for all of that region. so I commend this petition to the Bouse and I urge the hen. the Minister of Transportation and communications (Mr. c. Brett) and the government to act on it immediately. MR. '1'. LUSH: You said Northwest Arm; it should have been Southwest Arm. MR.

SPEAKER : (Simms) MR. 0. JAMIESON: The hon. member for - Excuse me 1 I am sorry 1 Mr. Speaker, I made a geographical error and called it Northwest Arm when obviously I should have said Southwest Arm. MR, SPEAKER: de Verde, MR. F. :ROWE : The hon. member for Trinity - Bay Mr. Speaker, it gives me a great deal of pleasure to support the petition presented by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. D. Jamieson) 1 who represents an adjoining district 427

March 6, 1980 Tape No. 161 SD - 3 MR. F. ROWE: to mine of Trinity - Bay de Verde and of course he represents the district of Bellevue. Sir, aside from the fact that tr~s road took some nine years to upgrade and represents twenty miles of road where you have nine communities being serviced by that road and six schools, aside from that, Sir, I would like to point out another reason why this particular road should be paved and upgraded immediately and that is an economical reason.

T~e Leader ,-of the Opposition indicated that we do have a considerable amount of transportation of fish products over this particular road and the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J.

Morgan), I would hope, or certainly ~~e member representing the district I hope would get up and support the petition on that particular point alone because one of the things that probably deters the sale of fish from this particular 9rovince,relegates against it anyway in some manner is the quality of the fish in this Province that is being marketed outside of the Province and quite often the quality of the fish is downqraded,not because of the plant workers or the methods of getting the fish out of the boat and into the plants and this sort of a thinc;r because a lot of work has been done on that,but the transportation of fish particularly in the hot days of the summer over bW!IPY, dusty, travel roads does considerable damage and reduces the quality of the fish. products quite significantly.

If for no other reason, Sir, we should have such roads upgraded immediately in this Province. 428

March 6, 1980, Tape 162, Page 1 -- apb MR. F • B • ROw"E : and I would suggest to th~ hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett), in the consideration of a road paving programme for this Province, that some consideration be given to roads as they relate to the transportation of fish products in this particular Province.

For a great many years, Sir, we ~ad fish transported down, for example, the Great Northern Peninsula, some 200 or 300 miles of straight dirt road and by the time it reached Port aux Basques for transportation across the Strait,or some other fish plants on the West coast, the fish was in a considerably bad state. So, Sir, I hope that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and/or the minister representing that particular district will get up and support the petition. I certainly give it all my support. MR. ~ARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER(Si~~s): Bonavista North. ORDERS OF THE DAY Order 1. Order 1, the Address in Reply.

The hon. the member for MR. STIRLING: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I ·adjourned this debate the last sitting. Really, I think I would like to take up partially \.,.here I left off in the first debate in this House, after the first Throne Speech. In the first Throne Speech we tall- ==U. aLout the identity of Newfoundlanders and the accountability of the government. In this second Throne Speech we are now back to looking, as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) said, at as essay of \.,.here we are and where we are going. And the two things tie in. ~he two things tie in, Mr.

Speaker, because there is not verv much point in the government 429

~arch 6, 1980, Tape 162, Page 2 -- apb MR. STIRLING: talking about the kind of Newfoundland they hope we will have, and the kind of fisheries development that we are talking about unless the government is going to be accountable for making things happen. And let us just look at what has happened since ~~is first Throne Speech, and what the government is accountable for since that first Throne Speech. In that first Throne Speech, in rny reply to it, I asked the government to do something about the Northern co 'd stock. It was not a big problem.

Well, we have come a long way since, since there was· not a big problem. There was a conference in Corner Brook. The government did not make very much of a stand. There was a federal government - and then they took on the federal government on the Northen cod stock and now the gover~~ent's position on the Northern cod stock is the same as the position that w·as asked for by many people and at that time the only person who responded from the government side was the Minister of Lands and Forests and he is now the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan). We should have no more problems with the Northern cod stock.

Look at the other area, an area thatthe governmenthas control over, and that is the area of the Fisheries Loan Board. What has happened to the Fisheries Loan Board in that period? The fishermen who are on the Fisheries Loan Board still do not know where they stand. The fishermen who are on the Fisheries Loan Board still have not been told - MR. MORGAN: They are not going gack on the Board again, I will tell you that. MR. NEARY: They got the flick. Everything is blamed on the fishermen. 430

~~rch 6, 1980 , Tape 162, ?age 3 -- apb :O!R. STIRLI~G : ?tr . Speaker, if ~he Mi~ister of Fisheries woulc like to elaborate a bit more on t~at statement - l>1R. :-iORGA.."' : Ask me a question and I '"ill give you the details tomorrow in the House, if you wou~d lL~e . ~1R . STI RLL'iG : - I will gladly yield for yoc to ans~er specifically that questio n, that the fishe~en are not going back on the Board . Would you li~e - HR . :.tORGJ..N : no . ~rR . STIRLI~G : Not the same !ishe~en, Not the same fi shermen? 1qould you like to be more specific? I \vOuld gladly yield !or you to be more specific. SOME H0:-1 .

ME~ffiERS: Oh, oh ! MR . :>lEARY : minister a question . :-iR . STIRLING : !>IR . SPEAKER ( Si.:11!11s) : He is asking the hon . No , he interrupted me . If the hen . member wishes to yield to the hon . minister for some comments ~uring his time , I suppose that is quite in order . MR. STIRLING : Well, Mr . Speaker, I ~~ought we had established the precedent last time 4 31

):arc!'l S, l.S3') Tape :•o . ~o 3 A:t - 1 ~~ - ET!aL:~G: chat i! we y~ele to so~ebody,~hac somebody s?ea~s and we ca~e ~ ne t1=e, ::he ful~ a~ocnt of time af;;e ::·..-ards. by yoursc.l:: . ':'."'et was ~:he precedent :ha~ I -:::-,ouc;:::: ... as es::ablis:~ed XR . S?~AKER (Si zms } : ~ell I would sugges1: to you :hat we sill ::a·1~ to '-"aic and Sil,;. if che macter arises '!nd if so I will have c~ rule en lt at cr.at time . HF •. ST!!\LING: Thank you, Mr . S?eake r. !-!R . ~E~~y : He was coo cowa rdly to gee up an d make a state~enc publicly . Yl ~ . STIRLU:G: ~lr .

Speaker , t.he r eason C.!"lat I was q~ice prepared to yield was ~ecause this is the first inc~ca::io!'l, :h~ first ~ndication from th~ govern~ent Gf the exa ct ?oinc t~~t t~e ~~she r ~es minis~e ~ maCe, those f1sr.er~e~ are not goi!'lg bac~ on the board . Tha~ is th e =i ~ sc i~O~=ac~o~ . I as~ed las t ~ecember, Mr . Speaker - SO~£ 5CN . XE~3ERS : Oh, oh! MR. . ST:~L!N~: ~r . Speaker . I would li~e 1:0 have your indic~ c ion . The mi~is~er has again asked ir I will yielc and 1 a~ no~ o::epared co y1ele w1chour gi ving up my tim~.

Can I have a ruling from che Speaker?Ic is th e second in~:erven~ion by the ai niscer, Mr. Speaker , and if he is goi ng to continue tbac all the way chrouqh -I have no ob)ec t io ~ to yi elding if the Speake r ~ill give an indica~:ion chat it is nor cucting i n~o my rime . ~R . S? EA!<.ES. : I .,..ould .1ave co incicat e ar chis time,seeing the hon . minister is auout to s tand,th~t I would have to take a moment jus~ to check the ref ere nce . I recall the former inscance b~t 1 believe it is a l itt le di!ferent cir cumscance .

And! believe that norcally when a pe rs on yields for s om ebody on tho othe r Sld£ to make a comm ent , I ~el1eve ic doe s com e ouc of his time . So it will com e ou t of :~u r 432

~:ar::h ?, l93J Tape No. !63 .;c- 2 ~R. SPEAK~~ S~ m os): al:octed twe~~Y ~!nutes. ~tR. STIRLI ~G : ~r . speak 2~, thac was not my i::u:ar.;::ret:~cior. o: •..;hat ha;;:;::.ened. MR MORGAN: (Inaudible) l~ke thirt y seconds. Clari:y be:or~ you carr? on you: spe ec h {!n audible ) ~!R. STIRLING: :-1r . Speaker - :-!R. S?EAKER : Order ,j?lease! I am not cert ain that the hon . ~em~er has a9reed to y~eld or ~ot. mL STIRLniG: Mr. Speaker, I nave net agreed to yi eld ~Y ti~e. :1R . Si'F.:i\l<E:?. : Well, then the hon. me~~e: shcu:d ?erhaps :ont~~u2 wic h h ~s S?2e:h becacse t.is ti~e is :e:~ainly mo •;ing along . :~~. S:'IRL:~lG: In chac case, ~r. Speaker, I would like to continue . My

interpretation was that the Speaker nad agreed on that and I would appreciate if he could do t~at because this minister , I am sure 1will interject from ti,e to t~me. T~e first indicar.ion thac ~e have froc the qovernmenc that thls ~isheries Loan Soard has t.ac any~hing done ~ith it is t~o minutes ago when the Minister of Fisher1es l~r. Morgan) ind1cacec in a slurring manner chat those fishermen will not go back on ~he loa~ ~oarc. ~IR. ~ORGAN : the sa ~~ fishermen. MR . STIRLING: qo bac:l< on the loan boa rd . Spea!<er . !"IR . ~ORGAN : Not the same fishermen! sa1d,not Those same fisherm~n will not And that is exactly the point,Mr. (Inaudible) formed yet . 433

:•!arch 6,1913 :> !ape ~~o. 163 ~H - 3 :·l ~. ST J: ::U.i :;G : !-ir. S~eake::, that. is exaccly ~~e point. . The sa=e ~is!:e::en will ~ o c ;o back on :~e boa~d . This ~as something that ~he House L~4der on the ocher side ~cule not 39~ee to~ t.his w~s so~e:~inq ch~~ : ~efer you bac~ to the December 19th Hansard, ~r . Speaker, that. che ~i~ister of Fisheries (Mr .Mor;an) woald noc say, would not concede, a~d th~c t.he~ came out and said, ·~ell their terD h3s expired and chere is an interim board." And I reme~ber che Leader of the Oppo siti on gectin g up and saying, "Come on now, you cannot have two boards .

You ~ither have a board or you do not have a board:' And up until two minuces ago they had indi=ated that there were two ~ ~ ar1s and thac they would not come point blank and sa y it, and now as the ~iniscer c! Fisheries (Mr.~or;an) has sai d ,thcse same !ishermen will not be put back on t.he board. fisheroe~? ~1!1.. ~IORG;. .~: ~!R. ST!RLI~;:;: ~ow what. has he done co chose same ~ew faces (inaudibl ~l . Those sa~e fisher~en, ~r. Spe~ke:, have not been given an opportunity, those same fishermen have not been qiven an opportunity to defend thei: pos1~ion on the board.

The board has been called a mess, a scandal, and a great. deal was go ing on with the bo~d . And what die the gove:nment do? In ~a r ystown when ~hey had a simila r problem they had ~he aoarc of Oireccors examine the similar problem . In the case of 434

Har::h 6, 1980 Tape 164 EC - 1 HR. L. STI?.LI)iG: ~~e ~isheries Loan Board, they di~ nothing to tell the Fisheries Loan Board that ~~ey were fired. They just brought in a new bunch of civil servants, nade ~~em the Fisheries Loan Board, and until two minutes ago ~~ey did not have ~~e courtesy to tell those fishermen who were on L~e board they would not be replaced. until the !'..i,nister of Fisheries (Hr. J. Morgan) in his seat, from a slurring point of view said, 'Those fishermen will not be put back on the board. ' SOME HON. !-EMBERS: ~R. SPEAKZR (Si~

s) P~~. L. STIRLI~G: !·l?.. J. o!ORGAN : M..."t. SPEA.'<ER: ~inister of Fisheries. MR. J. HORGAN: oh, oh! Order, please! Insulting the ~mbers of that beard - Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. On a point of order, L~e hon. ~~e Mr. Speaker, one thing I will never do- I never will in the future or never have done in the past - is slur on a fisherman. My father was a fisherman all his life. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh~ MR. J. MORGA.."! : Anc the point of order is there was no slurring comment made. I did say tha~ the Board will not consist of the same fishermen as in the past .

The Board will consist of fishermen, tut not the same fishermen as in the past. That is a correction, Mr. Speaker, and therefore the point of order is L~ere was no slurring comment made and if ~~e hon. gentleman is going to refer to my comments, quote me accurately. MR. F. ROWE: Mr • Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: That is no point of order, Mr. Speaker, it is simply a point of clarification. And there is no such thing as a point of clarification in the House, so there is no point of order. MR. NEARY: It is a point of ignorance. 435

11arch 6, 1960 Tape 164 EC - 2 ~~.R. SPElY..ER (S~=.sl : I would rule that there is, in fact, not a point of order in ~~is particular case, but the hen. oinister has taken the O?portunity to explain some co~~ents that were a~tributed to hL~. I would ask the hen. the me7~er for Bona•rista North (Nr. L. Stirling) to continue. MR. L. STIFLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That is typical of the flip-flop that this goverr~ent has done on ~~tters of fishery.

There is no question in my mind that when you check Hansard you will say, 'And those fishermen will never go back on the board. ' And ~~e tone of voice may not appear in Hansard, but ~~ere is no doubt to anybody who was listening as to what that Fisheries Minister intended. And that is the very point. This whole matter has been left up as a question, L~at L~ese people who were on the Loan Board up ~~til now have not been given the courtesy of even being told what the Fisheries Minister (Mr. J. Morgan) just said.

They have not even been given the courtesy of a letter that-says, 'You are no longer a member of the board. Thank you very much for'past services,' - notLing. MR. J. MORGA..'<: !1R. L. STIFLING: SOME HON. ME..'iBERS : MR. S. NEARY: M...~. SPEAKER: ;)!R. L. STIRLING: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: continue. MR. L. STIRLING: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: They knew it six months ago. Corne on! They have not been told a thing. oh, oh! One of the igncrantest things ever happened. Order, please! Order, please! Mr.

Speaker, this is an indication - Oh, oh! order, please! ~ne hen. member wishes to Thank you, Mr • Speaker. Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! Hen. members on both sides, of course, are well aware that part of parliamentary procedu=e and tradition is to exchange comments back and forth. However, ~~ere are occasions when it does 436

Xarch 6, 1980 Tape 164 EC - 3 MP.. SPEA.~ER (Si~~) : get somewhat out of hand w~d I believe t:"lis is o::.e of t.'lose occasions. I •.-ould ask hon. "'erni:>ers to please constrain themselves so that the hon. the merni:>er for Bonavista ~orth may continue with his remarks. The hen. t..'le member for Bona vista Nore •. HR. L. STIRLING: Thank you very much, Mr. Spea~er. I have no objections to the give and take across t.'le floor and it was not on my objection.

By the way, ! said it in this sa~ period in the Throne Speech the last time t.'lat ! was here, that I was proud to be in t.'le F.ouse of Assembly and I had my family in t.'le gallery to observe what a great, wonderful place it is. They are back here again today to observe what a great, wonderful place it is ~~d ! am sure that t.'ley will understand that it can be a little bit more lively than maybe the first formal visit. MR. E. HISCOCK: Do they understand the Minister of Fisheries? MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I want to get back to the point about the Fisheries Loan Board.

Those fishermen who were members of that Loan Board had a job to do. They were asked ~y the government to go out and say to fishermen all over this Province, 'There is a great future in the fishery. There is a great future for young people in the fishery. Come in and borrow from the Fisheries Loan Board. We are going to finance you, we are going to be your bankers. The new look in Newfoundland is going to be the great prosperity of the fishery.' And that is what those fishermen did. They had meetings all over the Province. They encouraged fishermen to come in and borrow money.

They encouraged people to go into debt for hundreds of thousands of dollars to prosecute the fishery. And what has happened to t.'lat Fisheries Loan Board? The fishermen were fired off the Loan Board and they have not, even at 437

~la rc h 6, 1980 Tape No. 165 Dl>' - 1 1·1R. L. ST!?.LING: ::his stage, to this date, to this moment ,until we heard the Fisheries Minister's c0111111ent a few minutes ago been told. They have not been t~anked for their services, they have not had the opportunity to defend themselves. The absolutely basic right in this democratic system that we live in is that everybody has the right to defend themselves and yet this Fisheries Loan Board was-nothinq done with. They put in a new Board, they were not even told that a new board was being brought in.

That is one issue: That is one issue that the ;overn- ment still has to deal with. You cannot treat people like dirt and then make pretty speeches about the way of life in Newfoundland and the g-reat respect they have about fishermen. You cannot treat people like dirt, like the way they have been treated. Those fishermen were repre- sentatives of fishermen all over this Province and at this point they have not been told that they are off the Board. MR. S. UEARY: One is in lll'f district on it. MR. L. STIRLING: Oh, of course, all over the fishing districts. And they did a good job.

The fishermen did a good job, the'~ob;that they were supposed to do. Now they were not responsible for the administration of the Board, they are like every other Board of Directors. They were responsible to get fishermen to have confidence in the Board as a source of~money. Now what really happened 'is the fishermen have been flicked off the Board and a qroup of civil servants have b~.!~ r~t in there takinq their direction directly from the government. They have left the fishermen in utter chaos,Mr. Speaker, utter chaos. MR. S. NEARY: No protection. 438

March 6, 1980 Tape ~;o. 165 !JW - 2 MR . STIP.L!HG: No protection , no concern . Let us just ask any of the hen. members opposite who are either in business or in any at the other ~ alks of life: You g'O to a banker and you borrow some money -in this case the fisherman is a businessman. He borrows money to get himself into a boat. The only thing that he can pay back that loan from is his continuing income as a fisherman. This year he gets a problem with the motor - I ha•e one fisherman in particular •.rho has been in _ touc h with the :-!inister of Fisheries (~.r.

Morgan) and the minister pronounced this in the House of Assembly-not on the t~lephone with the gu y when he was talking to him but in the House of Assembly, '! am not interceding or interfering on behalf of anyone'. That same Fisheries minister,of course,on the telephone says, 'Leave it with me, boy, I will see what ! can do'. AN HON.MEMBER: True ~!R. L. STli.RLING: The same Fisheries minister! Here is a person who is up to his ears in debt to the Fisheries Loan Board, has got a good business as a fisherman and he needs a new motor, $17,000.

He comes to the Loan Board and he has been tossed around since last Spring. And that is one example of hundreds and hundreds, hundreds in every part of this Province who have been told by the people in the Fisheries Loan,Board, in the government and in this Throne Speech- in this Throne Speech we say the number one priority in Newfoundland is fisheries, that is what we are•saying in the Throne Speech, aDd the Minister of Fisheries gets up and says, 'Oh, yes 1 but, of course, the only place we have any money for is in hardship eases'. But who is going to decide the hardship cases?

No~ the Minister of Fisheries he is not getting involved in that. MR. S. NEARY: The Minister of Finance like up in ottawa. 439

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Marc!:> 6, 1980 Tape No. 166 EL-l MR. L. STIRLING: The question, when it was asked of the Fisheries minister who is bouncing around- MR. MORGAN: They laughed at him. The fishermen of Wesleyville laughed at him. They laughed at him. He was a joke. MR. STIRLING: Yes, I would like for Hansard to record the comments of the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), his slur across the House. The fishermen of Wesleyville laugh at him, he is a joke. '!1R. MORGAN: MR. L. STIRLING: think you are a joke . MR. MORGAN: They think you are a joke, they do. Yes, the Fisheries minister, they (Inaudible) a cornerboy from St.

John's about the fisheries, now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. Wi'.RREN: He runs a tavern! MR. SPEAKER (Butt) MR. STIRLING: Oh, oh! A tavern owner! A tavern owner! Order, please! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, what the minister is really doing when he is trying to make a joke and a slur on anybody who questions the minister is that he is saying, 'Do not bother me with these problems of these fishermen from Wesleyville' because the fishermen from Wesleyville or ~he fishermen from Badger's Quay are not here today - MR. MORGAN: I will be in Wesleyville next week. MR.

STIRLING: - and they cannot see today what the Minister of Fisheries is doing because the government has not agreed to allow television into the House. MR. MORGAN: (inaudible)book yet. week. The han. gentleman has no~ ever I will be in the office in Wesleyville next 441

~!arch 6, 1980 Tape No. 166 IB-2 MR. STIRLING: If we could get television in this Eouse, Mr. Speaker, if we could get television in this House the people in Newfoundland would see what the Minister of Fisheries is doing in the middle of the afternoon because he thinks he can get away with it, because he thinks he can avoid the subject that he knows cannot be avoided. And maybe it is his last fling as Fisheries minister for the next few days, ma~be he has been told 'That is it, boy, might as well have your fun.' MR. WARREN: MR. STIRLI~G: He is doing a good job of nothing.

He is saying that it is a joke that the people in Wesleyville have problems with the Fisheries Loan Board. The last time that they came in and brought up a point on behalf of sixty municipalities in the Province he said, 'Only sixty', and now, only the fishermen of Wesleyville. The member for Bonavista North is a joke because he brings in the concerns of the fishermen from Wesleyville. MR. WARREN: HR. STAGG: He has a tavern, does he not? (Inaudible) just left. SOME HON. MEMBERS: !-IR. STIRLING: Hear, hear; The people in Bonavista North, Mr. Speaker, the people in Bonavista North want their fair share. share.

The people in Bonavista North want their fair And as long as there are Liberals elected to this House of Assembly they will get their fair share and they will have the - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STIRLING: - comments of fishermen, and the comments of fishermen in Greenspond and in Badger's Quay and in Valleyfield, they will have these things brought to this House of Assembly because we represent the fishermen of this Province. 442

Narch 6, 1980 MR. WARRE N : MR. STIRLING: men in Bonavista North. Tape No. 166 IB-3 Right on, right on: Mr. Speaker, there are not only fisher­ There are people who have a concern for housing in Bonavista North. The members of St. John's know what great benefits have come through the Residential Rehabilitation P7ogram, brought in by the federal government, operating here in St. John's, operating in many parts. But no- where in Bonavista North is there one half unit of housing of that nature. Nowhere in Bonavista North is there one unit of public housing. Mr.

Speaker, not too many months ago, this time last year, a little later when we were into " the election, this government could find money to send out to the people who were on welfare - a seven per cent increase to the people on welfare. MR. WARREN: Big deal . MR. STIRLING: Well, Mr. Speaker, those same people in the district of Bonavista North have had their oil costs increasing, just going up and up and up. MR. STAGG: higher. MR. THOMS: MR. STIRLING: (Inaudible) higher, higher, Take the weekend off, will you?

And when they came to the welfare office and said, "Where am I going to get this extra money", there is no~ extra money. Well, I make a proposal to the government that anybody who receives a provincial government cheque through long-term assistance should have an increase, anybody wh is on long-term assistance - not only the peoFle in Bonavista North, but because J have seen the crying problems of the people in Bonavista North who have no other choice. Expenses have gone up twenty, thirty, forty dollars a month for oil; they have no other choice. I propose to the government, Mr.

Speaker, that at least these people be given the same increase as they were given in the middle of the election last year. 443

March 6, 1980 Tape No. l67 NM - 1 MR. STIRLING: at least the same seven per cent increase to be sent out in their cheques so that they can cope with this increase in the cost of oil this year. MR. STAGG: That the Liberals put on. MR. HISCOC!I:: What about the eighteen cents a gallon? MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, all of us were elected to this House of Assembly to represent the people in our districts. we did not get elected as members of the gover~~ent or members of the Opposition, ~1e were elected, all fifty-two of us, to represent our district.

It was after we got elected, when · the seats were added up , that there happened to be more on that side than this side and that is why we end up in Opposition and they happen to be on the government side. Eut everybody has a respcnsibility and,Mr. Speaker, on this side of the House, in addition to representing our districts as individuals, we take the responsibility of making sure that this government operates properly, that you just cannot make pretty speeches. Now you have made pretty speeches about the identity of the Newfoundland community and where we are going in Newfoundland.

We talked yesterday about one of those great disparities, the ambulance service for Labrador which, I fully expect will be corrected before the budget is brought in. I have talked to some of the members on the other side and they are as much ashamed of that situation as we are on this side. I expect that problem to be resolved.

I want to bring to your attention, and to the attention of other people- the Minister of social Services is not here at the present time - but I will give you an example of another thing that needs to be corrected• Right now I have an incident of a young man whose family is on welfare in my district 1and he is representative of hundreds and hundreds of people throughout Newfoundland,because,in the 444

March 6, 1980 Tape No. 167 GH-2 MR. STIRLING: midst of all the excitement of this great oil boom, Mr. Speaker, there are still hundreds of people that do not have jobs in this Province, and there are hundreds of people on welfare that are ashamed to be en welfare, de net want to be on welfare but they have no choice. This is a young man, 16 years of age, his family is on welfare, and through the school - a bright, young fellow - they got the opportunity for him to go to Gander, to go into the vocational school. This is a situation that I am not bl~~ng on the Minister of Social Services (Mr.

Hickey), but as a member of this House I am going to bring to the attention of the government, in my role as an Opposition member and as a nember, bring to the attention of the governnent because I am sure they will want to correct it. The standard procedure is that this young man has been told to get a student loan; 'get a student loan to cover your books and tuition, get a student loan,' Mr. Speaker,to a young man on welfare. Everybody in the community is giving him a chance to break out of it. And we wonder why we have so many rural development loans not collected, so many fisheries loans not collected?

Here is the department that says to the parents of this young mcm" Go get him a student loan. A young man, 16 years of age, has a chance to go to vocational school, has a chance to make something of himself, has the chance to break out of the welfare cycle, and what is he told? nGo get a student loan." MR. MORGJ.N : What is wrong with getting a student loan? MR. STIRLING: Exactly! How listen and I will tell yo~ what is wrong with getting a student loan: How can the young fellow ever pay it back? How can he ever pay it back.

His family on welfare - 16 years old~- and he starts off life and his first introduction to doing something independent on his own is 1 'Get a loan, my son'. Get a loan and start off life knowing that nobody pays back government loans; start him off with the idea to get a loan because that is the way to do it. All you have to do is apply on a piece of paper, it does not mean anything. You get a loan. How can the young man ever pay it back? 445

March 6, 1980 Tape No. 167 GH-3 ~R~ STIRL!NS: It cannot !)e,~ Five minutes: · That is tl"oe five minutes that you used up, Mr. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan). But this young man, ~tr. Speaker, this young man is an ex~rnple of what is happening all over this Province, and we are trying to talk about helping people break out of a situation, helping people get out of a situation where they are dependent on the ~~6

March 6, 1980, Tape 168, Page 1 -- apb MR. STIRLING: government. And here is somebody, a new young person and we are cursing him with a student loan that either he has to be conscientious about to try to pay back and go to the welfare officer and say, 'Please, sir, sign this, but I cannot pay it back'. Absolutely ridiculous! What we should be doing is encouraging that person to make a start, give him a chance, not force him to go ~~tomatically into becoming a bad debt and one of the hundreds of people who are going to be hounded. Because, Hr.

Speaker, what is happening with the fishermen right now, we have a new Chartered Accountant put in as the head of the Fisheries Loan Board, we have a new Chartered Accountant as the accountant, we have a government that says, 'Of course!'. When I brought up this example the other day the Fisheries Minister said, "He is in arrears in his loan." We have a situation where people were encouraged to think that you did not have to pay back the loans, and they are not going to be given a chance to adjust, they are coming down hard on them. And, Mr.

Speaker, there is condition after condition after condition now where boats are being reposs€ssed, where people are getting the attitude that nobody cares, and the essence of this Throne Speech, 'We are going to develop the fishery, we are going to develop the Newfoundlander, give him a sense of community, ' - MR. MORGAN: We will. We will. MR. STIRLING: - 'give him a sense of where we are going'. Mr. Speaker, I would like to conclude in whatever few minutes I have left. Do I get a one minute warning as well? I havea five minutes warning, do I get a one minute warning? 447

March 6, 1980, Tape 168, Page 2 -- apb ~~ - SPEAKER (Butt) : The han . gentleman has about two minutes remaining . SOME HON. MEMBERS : By leave. MR. STIRLING: I got so wound up in the problems of the district, Mr. Speaker, that I never got time to deal with one or two of the things that the Leader of the Opposition had brought up. We seem to be getting an attitude from the goverrunent- this is on the question of the offshore- it seems like the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) has a lot of information that he keeps close to his heart. But people all over Newfoundland need that information. Mr.

Speaker, there was a person visiting here, Justice Berger, who conducted an enquiry into the MacKenzie Valley pipeline, and it has been broadcast as one of the great examples of . public participation. Mr. Speaker, that enquiry was set up March 21, 1974, and it was not completed until March of 1977. It took three years to handle that enqui:ty and the impression that I get from the other side when the Leader of the Opposition says, "Look, at least set up a Committee of the House to examine into all aspects of the offshore', that it is something that they think can be done in a week or two weeks.

Even if we set up the terms of reference right away, this takes time to do a job. I get the impression that there is a feeling on the other side that they have all the information and when they feel like giving it out - they went to a meeting of The Canadian ·Coun~il of Christians and Jews, gave them all the information. They went to another group and gave them all the information. We would like to have the representatives of the people of Newfoundland, the members of this House, participate in that kind of a response so that we can 448

March 6, 1980 , Tape 168 , Page 3 -- apb MR . STIRLING: of Ne•,.,foundland . t-1H .• SPEA!<ER (Butt) : t>tR . STIRLING: get it out to the people Order, please ! I thank you very much for you r indulge:lce, Mr . Speaker, and the concurrence of the people on the other side to allow me to finish the rem ar ks . Thank you very much . SO!-IE HON . MEHBERS: Hear , hear! ~ . SPEi\XER : The hon . the !tinister of Finance . SOl'!£ fiO~ . )>!E~1BER S: Sear, hear ! 449

March 6,1930 Tape No. 169 AH-1 DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, we are ~ebating the Throne Speech, a document that I think will be a landmark in the history of this Province as it sets out the intent of this government, this administration,for at least the next five years and clearly the effects flowing from that will go on for many years longer than that. Mr. Speaker, I would just like , before getting into the main body of my remarks 1 to say a few things about my own district. St. John's South, of course, is interested in all the matters alluded to in the Speech. The good citizens of St.

John's South have elected a PC member to this House for I do not kuow how many years. There are an extremely sensible type of folk in St. John's South and I am sure they will go on doing so for many years to come. They take their politics, they take their interest in Newfoundland very seriously and they are concerned about all matters including , of course, the new opportunities opening up for this Province, such as the offshore oil matters. But that is just one of their interests. I have mentioned this before and I am not sure that people quite understaud this, that the district of St.

John's South is a great fishing district. It is the second, I think of processed fish in this Province. it is the second producer I am referring, of course, to the plant on the Southside of the harbour of st. John's and I would just like to give a few figures to make that point more clearly. Now these are statistics for the year just completed, 1979. The total landings at that plant were 25,266 metric tons. So if we are not quite up to the metric thing that comes to 55,686,000 lbs. Fifty-five million pounds of fish were processed on the Southside of the harbour of St. John's.

The landed value of that catch was over $7 million . It was $7,633,000. The export value was over $20 450

~ta:-c~ 6, l~SC' '!ape :l-:~. 169 ~H-2 L>?.. co:.~r'i$ : :t:.llio~. ~0~' ~~a~ i! in Lc~cal !ace, I t:hi::k, su:rpass !!d or:ly - and :D.Y hon . ~ricr:d o.:>;;osi te, ! t.hi n~ , moncionecl t:his on~ ti:lle reccncly , c~a ~ is sur;?assed only, r think , by the plant at ~arysto~n. '!'!le catch t:here ~as largely cod or red~ish.

In accua l !ac~ ~= was J~S~ ever :o, OOu ce~ric cons o! cod and j~st over 12,5~0 ~eerie ::.ons o : reclfish . ~he plant Ltself is served by Bix cra~lers, six of the most. mod~rn trawler s in chis ?rovince, six st.ern t:raw!ers,anc che number of t~awler men involved ~he r e ere r . ..:.:le.:.::r. There are ninety - \·~:-: . ~El.~Y: t.he plant.? DP •• COl.L!NS: ~~o was res~onsi~le for gec~1nq There were a ~u~ber of people , C'O!r1:aJ. nly not least o! all the people of t:!lis ?rovir.ce . Anc certainly t.he peo ple o: this ?rovince are operating that: plant over there.

So t.here are ninet:y trawler men in si x st.e rn t:rawlers feedin~ ~hat. plant . In :!ddit:ion eo t.hat - and c:.is may not be apprecia ted -in aedition eo tha: t~ere is a to:al of ove r o~e h~ndred , there are one h~ddred and six ,as a ~at.ter of fac: ,small boats also sup?lY the plan~ and the c.o~al ins~ore fishermen are one hunered and ei~ h t:y four . ODe hundred and eighty four inshore fish•rmon in one hundred and six small boats also help t:o supply !ish ~o t~e plant on :he Sout.hside . There are at 45 1

March 6, 1980 Tape No. 170 SD - 1 DR, J. COLLINS : this point in time, 550 workers in the plant over there 1 gainfully employed workers in the plant on the Southside at this time. Now, the usual work force is just over 400 but the· plant is work.ing at top capacity now and is employing 550. Mr. Speaker, there are a number of other issues that are very current in my district in addition to the fishery and one of them, of course, is the synchrolift. I had discussions recently with the manager at the CN dock and he is quite pleased with the way things are going.

At this moment, unfortunately, there are some lay-offs at the c!xk and that is not due to lack of work, it is due to lack of facility. If there were more facilities down at the ~ dock there is enough work down there to retain the total work force and indeed to take on new individuals. As a matter of fact,some of the . ships to be serviced at the dock can not get in for several months; the:r are lying alongside and can not get on berth there; for several months.

So when the synchrolift comes along it will be a most welcome and a most needed extra facility.1ndeed,if it had not been planaed to go into place the dock would not have survived. The synchrolift will guarantee the survival of the dock and will increase the work force by several hundreds. The Federal Treasury Board and Cabinet have given acceptance for the idea.

They are dependent on certain final specifications but essentially the go-ahead has been qiven and the management at the dockyard are no"' getting the final details together and hopefully they will be able to start either late this year or possibly early next year. The Russian repair operation Wa5 very successful; that has been ongoing at the dock for approximately a year, ~hat has been very successful, 1t has 452

.. March 5, 1980 Tape No. 170 so - 2 DR. J. COLLINS : accounted for approximately one-fifth of all the work at the dock i~ ~;e past year and indeed accounted for over 50 per cent of the profit that was accumulated in the operations. AN HON. MEMBER: DR. J. CCLL:::NS: turn a profit. It turned ~as it profitable? It was. ~he dock in the past year did a good healthy profit in ~~is past year and the Russian operation was a large factor in that. Another ~~tter that concerns the people in my district, of course, is the condition of the Southside Fcad.

This is a very old part of the city, in recent years fallen on hard times not least because of the ne~ Waterford trunk sewer qperation there and nopefully the expectations are that it will be completed later t~ year or early next year and it is my desire and my intention to press very hard then for a major upgrading to be done along that whole area there. As a matter of fact, CN itself should come along in that effort because in a way it is a dis~ace what the CN has done to the Waterford Valley down there.

In olden days - 1 vas not around,I do not think,at the time ,- but my information is that in olden days that was a scenic spot.

Even when I was a boy growing up ,it was not in the disgraceful condition it is now and that has every capability or being returned to a beauty spot in this city, I am re~nded that in the city where I went to university ,in Edinburgh, Scotland, they have their railway come right down through the eity Gardens,and the Edinburgh City Gardens are one of the 7"''"+- 'tleautiful gardens in the whole of Europe,and they have a railway going right down through the middle of it into a railway station at the end of the gardens. It can be done and there is no reason why it can not be done in the eity of st. John's also, 453

Mar=h 6, 1980 Tape No. 170 MB - 3 DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I now would like to get on to another topic and that has to do with the remarks made by the Hon. Leader of the Opposition when he spoke on the Throne speech. And I do t~is because I felt that the Leader of the Opposition was certainly not at one with the way this administration views the prospects offshore. 454

~arc1:. ~, 198') Tape !~o . 171 DW - ~R.. J w COLLINS: As a ~atter of fact I will Not only was he certainly go a lot stronger than t~at, net as one with this administration, I think his view is dialectically opposed to what this administration is trying to do in terms o= the offshore. I therefore studied his speec~ in considerable detail because I thought it was important to ~nderstand his peEcepticn of the matter and to make sure that this perception was brou g ~t out and commented U?cn. And I went throuqh his speech very caref~lly,I hav~ summarized it because it was a long speech; not everyone perhaps will agree with my

summary. All I can say is that I took out what I took to ~e the i~portant points in chronological order - I did not t~ke one thought here and another thoug :.t there and change them around-and I put them down in what I think is a manageable form and I think a picture comes out of his remarks. So I would like to read this sul:lmary.

He said, 'I believe that the people of this Province along with me and along with members of this side' - he was referring to the hon. members opposite - 'get the feeling that throughout this Speech' - he was referring to the Throne Speech - 'there is a general theme of confronta- tion.

If you look at oil and gas there is clearl~ and has been for some time, a confrontational atmosphere not only with the Government of Canada but still greater confrontation with iodustry,with various labour groups, with people in the fishing industry who have very deep-seated concern. so that is one area in which confrontation seems to be the keynote. Nothing could be more demonstrative of this confrontational approach then when the Premier has to rise and say that a govern- ment of his own persuasion in Ottawa has acted against the interests of Newfoundland in the most fundamental way possible.' 455

.. :>!a::::h 5 . 19!!0 :!' a.ne ~o . l 71 vW - 2 o:;. . :. C~!L!~S: ~hen he goes en, ·on Hy~ro \l e ~a~e al =eaciy ar;~ed Nith the ?rov in=e o = Q ue~ec o~ this Lower Church ill a nd just wh a: irn p licatio~ fe r confr ontati o n c h ere are : h e=e I ~ave ~o icie a 1 • So ! t~i~x ~h at is ~he :ir st :heme :hat co~es oc~ i~ c~e hon . LeaCe: of the Cp positi:>n's (~r. Ja:mies ·c n} re!llr.rks . He says co~!rcnta.tion is a ma~ ter ~ h a~ ~ hi s admini strat i on is concentra~~ nq upo n . Now, ~~ .

S?eaker, jusc ouc o! i :1 tere st I look ~d U? wn·a t cor..frontation means mear,s in ;ver.star ~ s dic tionary . ~. nd th ~ mea:1i:-t9 Jt·c ::onfro :\ t' i:o~ ~hich'cc~=ron~a~io~'comes i s: ·~ o face : stan~; o r mee ~ :ace ~ ~ f a c ~ ; to f ac g o~ oppose ~o)d~y: to :rir.q =a c e to face with fac:s; to sit ~ide by sice t o co~pa" e.' So ~:: at: is :rue. T~e hon . Lgade: of t he Oppo s~~io~ is a~ite crce, we '.iish to scan.:i up. anc state ou.r cas~ bo l cly , to l.>rir:g the fac1:~ ~ -o rward for com p ariso-:1. And the ~-= ::~ r .of t he ho:'l .

Lea ~ er of r:he Opposition's ::emarks isthatt."'..isis a bad t h ing for :<e·,;founclla:'ld to do, t~at this is something that this administ rati¢n should not b e d oinq. I think that i s a very cogent point to ::emem b er , t h a t we over he re wish to stand boldly and p rese·nt the facts. And if t.he hon. L ea d er of the Opp osition speaks of t h:l t 1.n some pejo rat:l.ve way 1 he is . .,elcome to his o_pini o n but l <'.m afra i d that that is not the way we loc k upon it.

Now he goes on from there~ he says, ' One would be very hard pressed to say we could disagree in principle with any o·f the goals or objectives that have been outlined • . 456

Ma~ch 6, 1980 Tape 172 LC - _ DR .. J. CDLI.I)";S: And ~e go~s en: 1 I~ t~ti~g to ~~alyse why there has been so muc:1 t~lk and so little really siqnificant action, you have to come down ~o the fact that sabre rQttling, by itself, is not enouqh. These nine or ten Speeches from the Tnrone have had more sabres in them than wers carried by the troops in Ealaklava. There have been a series of sabre rattlings from beginniny to end.' In other words, ~~. Speaker, ~~e hon. the Leader of the Opposition agrees with the objectives but he does it very reluctantly.

He says he is hard pressed to agree with this, and then he derogates the putting forward of that point of view that we wish to present the facts boldly and starkly and ' compare them with other facts, he derogates the articulation of ~~at attempt by calling it sabre rattling, and I thi~~ that that is an important point to bear in mind. Now he goes on to say, '\·le want to maximize ~'le benefits for ~'lis Province. It is such a big subject it is very hard to know where to start. Let us look at what has come to be callozd - and I am baffled, quite frankly, by the use of the words - ownership, control, jurisdiction.

I am not sure what it is that is being scught. There are two ends to the spectrum if one is talking about offshore. One end is that it is wholly owned by the federal government, that is,wholly developed by the federal government, the whole thing being a federal proposition. The other end, the whole thing will be owned, the jurisdiction, the management, would be in provincial hands. Where do we go from here?' Now, Mr. Speaker, my

interpretation of that is ~'tat the Leader of the Opposition has suddenly come upon this issue. He wants to start from the beginning and look at this issue of the offshore jurisdiction. He has never heard of it before. I am forced to ask, Where has he been for the last four or five years? Mr. Speaker, I have in my hand here a White Paper dated May, 1977, which was put out by this government, which went into this issue in great detail. The substance of this was debated in this House. The substance of this got into the newspapers locally, federally, internationally. 457

l>!arc:"1 5 , 19 80 'Iape 172 EC - 2 DF.. J. C'JLi.I:-IS : I hav2 in my hand here a d.ocurr.ent that followed shortly after that, went around to every ho~sehold in the Province, stating ~~e heritage of the sea, our case of offshore mineral rights. I have difficulty in understanding why the Leader of the Opposition is so oaffled, so confused, so 'not knowing where to start' and saying ~~at ~~ere was one end of a spectrum and the other - What do we do from here? I wonder if he has been interested in the Province for a considerable number of years.

"J:hen he goes oro : 'He have :--.othing to lose,'-and he is referring here to the Supreme Co~t- 'We have no~~ir.g to lose by at the very least finding out.' Then he goes on to say, 'If we lose, even on referred reference, we still have the political solution to fall back on.' Now, Mr. Speaker, he goes on: 'On the local preference, Newfoundlanders might be sent to Nova Scotia OI might be sent to other parts of Ca.l'l.ada in order to be trained to acquire addi oonal skills. T"nere is a certain incompatibility with the idea of saying that there is no way we are going to have anyone else from anywhere else.' Mr.

Speaker, the hen. the Leader of the Opposition -and it is his prP.roqative, I do not quarrel with that - but what he is saying here is that we should make a reference to the Supra'ne Court of Canada and t11er •. he is also casting great doubt on local preference. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is exactly the federal position. In other words, the Leader of the Opposition is enunciating completely the federal side of this question. That is not the provincial side, that is not the side we take, that is not ~~e view we take. We take a view opposite to the federal government.

And I would say L~at it is not illogical for the Leader of the Opposition to articulate the views of the 7PM~~~l Liberal Party of which he was so recently a member. But I think 458 ......

Harch 6, 1980 Tape No. 173 GH-l D"t. COLLI::<S: that this should be borne in mind that the Leader of the Opposition speaks the Federal case when he speaks on the offshore in this House. AN HON. !·!E!>"'>ER: (Inaudible). DR. COLLI~S: I am corning to that shortly. He then goes on to say there is a reference in the regulations with regard to this 40 per cent which Newfo~ndland get$ in a development field. "There is refere:~ce to 40 per cent ·which Newfound­ land gets in the development field. Now, there are dangers ~o that. It is not only 40 per cent equity. At the same time it is 40 per cent responsibility.

I am askjng whe~her or not it is envisaged at any point that this company is going to ult~ately wind up in the position of a full-scale Crown corporation. Tell me when a gover::mtent owned Crown corporation ever paid a dividend to its shareholders, namely, the people. I am not at all certain that 40 per cent is much better in any case in a way than 25 per cent if one is talking about exerting influence. What is the optimum place at which ownership ceases to be beneficial and starts to be a drag on the economy in general?

I want to say that here we are playing in the big leagues, and a step wrong here can put us in a very serious position and could, in many respects, wipe out a lot of the benefits that carne from anything of this sort that happens. There is no question about the fact that when we get into it as a population of 500,000 or so people, that in our anxiety to go for the big dollar we do not, in fact, overloo k something which a few years from now we will ragret. 11 "Now, Mr. Speaker, the whole tenor of that rather long

section I read out here, which, as I say, is a

summary over a number of pages of what the han. Leader said, the han. Leader of the Op?Q~~tinn - he is putting a fear, he is putting a sense of uncertainty, he is p~tting a sense that we cannot manage what we have off there. He is making the Newfoundland people unsure of themselves, unconfident, not reliant upon themselves. Mr. Speaker, that is not the position of this administration. We have confidence in the people of this Province. we look to our history and we see what we have done in the past. We were a country at one time. We dealt in international affairs. We carried 459

~!arch 6, 1980 Tnpe ~lo . 173 G¥.-2 DR . CO:.L!::s: out int:erna.;:ional trade . ~/c are not a people ~ho are af~aid ~ face up •o their cestL~y . ! just want to ~ ake t~e ?Oint chat t~c Leader of che Opposition cakes that point of vie•.: . \·:e or. chis side do noc take that poir.t of vie~ . ~ow, ~tr.

Speake~, : chi~k ~1at this whole comment hy the Leader of che Opposition is consistent , is quite consist~~: with ho..- the Liberal Pa.rLy has viewed develop:nent :.n this Province, and I co no t say that in an argumentat:.ive way , I say chat in a way that one only has to loo~ a~ the facts a~ you have to come out with thac thought .

Right U'om the cime of the terms of Con:e~e~ation - which resulted in the loss of control of the f:. sheries, which ~esulted in the loss of cont~o: of ou~ cail~~ y, which resultec in the loss of control of local manufacture - the te~s of Confederation were Libe rally - and I me an th3t party w~se moti\·ated and th.is is what the terrns of refe!.:ence enced up as . ;to w I ~ u ld point out that tte~e were some people who did not agree with those c~rrns of C~nfederetion.

They felt that there shocle have bee~ other terms put in place , that we were a so ve ~eign country joining a sover~ig;: ~ou nt::c-y a."!d •-1e should have gone in on ten:-.s t!ult left us sene respect , and that theso ::erms that ~-ere struck by r.he :..ibe1:al outlook left us with no respect and left us ~ith losses o~ some of the ~ajor things t:.hat our history tells us are valu~e :o us . 46 0

~~arc!l. 6, 1980 Ta!Oe No. 174 RA-1 DR. J. COLLINS: In place of this loss of respect, what did we get? We got term 29 - $3 million, a pittance. SO!'.E HO!I . 1-'.EMBE RS : Oh, oh! ~!R. SPEAKER: (B.'\IF.

D) Order please! The hon. ~e~ber has the right to be heard in silence. DR. J. COLLI!\S: l~e got the baby bonus and u.r.c. In other words, we got money instead of the ability and the enco•Jrage,. :ent and the health to roake our own way. And I su~gest !tr. Speaker, that, that is how the Opposition is now •riewing the offshore .. They are saving, "I< ever mine! trying to develop it yourself, never mind the Confederation helping Newfoundland to develop its owT- resources and make its C'•"n way. Just let ~lewfoundlar.d take some money and let all else go~· SOME HON !'!EHBERE : i:'.ear., hear ! DR. J.

COLLINS: That is .not the way this aci."l'.inistration views things. I could go on with the way the Liberal Party has viewed development in this country. The Upper Churchill-a fe,., construction jobs and a small amount of cash and all the other bene=its go elsewhere. I could point to ERCO-a few const~~ction jobs and all the benefits fro~ cur onshore hydro development go elsewhere. I could look at many of ~he mineral and mining leases- it is thrown out, given out hand over hand with little regard for the development opportunities that they ~.ten~ially could give 1!he people of this Province. M.'<.

MARSHALL: Settle fer welfare. BR. J. COLLINS: Settle fvr welfare, as my non. friend here says. In other words,that is the pattern,and now I am not saying that is not a defensible pattern but I will leave it to the members opposite tb defend. The pattern is that we are not capaale really of doing very much on our own.The most we can get are a few crumbs here and there; - . --- . - Others have to come in from the outside, take our resources and develop• them and we will get a little bit of spinoff 1a few jobs here and there , a little bit of money here and there. Mr. Speaker, that is 461

ro.:arch 6, 1930 Ta pe :lo. 174 ~.-2 DR. J. COLLDIS: not the \o<ay of this aeministration • Ours is a new t•ay and our way is this~ We ..,ill stand up firr.'.ly an<i state our ~ase. ±f you want to call that confrontation,as ~ebster says yo·~ may call it, fi:1e, we have no objection to that .. Co"frontation is standing up firmly, not teing afraid to state your case with the facts behind you ,and this is what we will do. SOME n0N. ME:1BERS: Hear, hear! DR. J.

COLLINS : We are not afraid,we are not unsure, we are quite confident in cur ability to exercise our rights,and .... e have confiden~~ ~tat we will then 9artake in the management of our offshore resources and that we 1dll do a good job on it. Now, ltr. Speaker, I think. those are t~o;o entirely cifferent ways of locking at the ceveloptr .ent of this Province. Now, are we right? :s this the right way to go? MR. BARRETT: Sure it is. DR. J. COLLI~;s: Is this <>.dministration on the right track in that regard? I do not know,quite honestly~ I do not Y.now. 1-'.R. BAR!<ETI': Give it all to John Doyle. DR. J.

COLLINS: If I knew for certain I would have to have a eivir~ intelligence. All I can say is this, that I kn~w the way that we have tried, the Liberal way-end I have to put it in those terms because the Liberals were in poo;.•er during all this ti111e.- I know that that way is wronq. ile just have to look at our history and see that t:1at has not satisfied the destiny of this Province. I know that that is wrong . I just have one minute 1 I think it is 1and the other point is that I know that other Provinces have gone the opposite way. AN HON • MEMBER: Bea~, hear! DR.

J.COLLINS: There are certain ~~ings the Province of Quebec does that I cannot agree with and I never wiJ..l agree with, but I am brothers with them when they stand up fer their rights and say that"we will manage our own destiny, we have a heritage , we have a place in thjs Confederation and we will stand up for it and we will not be afraid to take into our hands what we see as our cul.tural destiny". Not only Quebec, the western Provinces ,as my hon. friend 462

Ma~ch 6, 19CO ':'a)Oe Nc. 174 r-:t-.-3 DR. J. COLLI~£: the President of the Council mentioned the other day. ~.lberta and Saskatche11.·an waited fer thirty ye~rs to rn4ke their case,but they were persistent; they did not throw it away, they did not go cap in hand, they did not say that,'I am incapable, I a111 unsure~ :;;ou do it anC: just c:rive me !!: few little odds and ends. They stuck at it for thirty years and they Frevailed and they now own their 011-'!l natural resources and this is ~~.·bat this aC.mir,istration "ill do also. 463 --

March 6, 1980 Tape 175 MB - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: ~I. Speaker, I think that we have to face the point that there are two di~etrically opposed ways of developing ~~is Pro~ince,at least as articulated by the major political parties. One is the Liberal way that has been tried for twenty-five years and at our perspective in time we can now say that that was the wrong way. We did not get what we deserve •• The other way is the way that we in this administration want to go. We do not kr.aw if we will be successful.

If we knew that w~ would have to have divine intelligence, but we know this that that is the wrong way and that we know that history tells us that what other provinces have done we also can achieve. Th~nk you. SOME HON. ME.!'IBERS : Hear, bear. MR. SPEAKER: (Baird) The hen. member for Windsor-Euchans AN HON. MEMBER; Hear, hear. MR. FLIGilT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In leading off my few remarks I would like to extend some congratulations,Mr. Speaker,that I think are in order. I want to congratulate, of course, the member for Fortune-Hermitage (Hr.

Stewart) on his re-election and wish 'him success in representing his district. I want to congratulate the Minister of Tourism (Mr. Dawe) en his appointment and wish him well in the various responsibilities he will have. Also my congratulations to the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Power) and the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) on assuming new responsibilities. MR. SPEAXER: {Sillllls) Order, please; . . . ..~.-...-_, I would like to call the hon. mi!lllber to order for a moment,althouqh it is not qui~e five o'clock, rather than have to interrupt you later as you proceed.

I can inform the P.ouse now that I have received notice of one matter for debate at 5:30 p.m. when a motion to adjourn will be deemed to be before the Bouse. Notice given by the hon. member for LaPoile {Mr. Neary) arising out of a. question asked the bon. the Miniseer of Justice (Mr. ottenheimer) and the subject matter 1 reference McConnell Advertising. 464

March 6, 1980 Tape 175 I'.E - 2 MR. SPEAKER: (Sitr.::~

s) The hon. member for Winasor-Buchans. MR. f'LIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I want to record a special vote of congratulations to our feceral minister,Mr. Rompkey, in Ottawa who has been recently appointed - SOME HON. MEMBEP.S : Hear, hear; MR. F!.IGHT: -Newfoundland's minister in, the Calli net. I would want, Mr. Speaker, at this time to have a very brief comment on our Premier's attitude on that appointment. Now, Mr. Speaker, we have a man who has served Newfoundland well a:1:3 ;; o:: ~( ,;:c hard for Newfoundland ti1is : past eight years.

We have a man who was elected by a resounding mAjority in his riding ,doubling the votes of both his competitors, _ who rung up a fair majority in the very provincial district that the Premier represents • AN RON. MEMBe:R: ~~at? MR. FLIGHT: And, Mr. Speaker, we have the Premier the next day putting down, belittling the appointment of Mr. Rompltey to the federal Cabinet. Now this government tallts~about co-operation, Mr. Speaker, and within a. day - and~that is the JU.n vho. -the Premier and his committees, I would think, will hzve to do so- dealing with. Ee is our lllinister, we ha.ve to a.ccept that fa.ct.

And we ta.lk about co-operation. Well, Mr. Speaker, I was totally disappointed in the Premier's per- formance. To me enough said about it, Sir, Anyone who would react ~at way without giving a man a chance has no class. MR. WHITE: Right on. MR. FLIGHT: our Premier in that particular instance - AN BON. MEMBER: What about Joe Clark ? MR. FL!t;Wl': - la.clted class, Mr. Speaker, and he is ----·--slowly being p~~ceived in this Province as a man who aay indeed lack class. Now ,Mr. Speaker, I am going to have a few words on offshore.

I want to make it explicity 1 clear that I am not. nor would I pretend to be, a constitutional expert. I have to say 1 thouqh,havinq ·eat . in this Rouse and listened to the constitutional 465

March 6, 1980 Tape 175 MB - ll MR. FLIGHT: experts on both sidoas -and I do not mean that in a derogatory way, I ~ean that seriously,-! am starting to understand a little more about the constitutional problems with regards to our offshore. I am sure I have a better under!tanding than ~ 'the miners, the loggers, and the fishermen who.are represented by all ~e rne~bers of this House. I can tell this House, Mr. Speaker, that ~onstitutionality goes over the heads of the people out there. They have no concern at all about the constitutionality of the offshore.

They are concerned that we derive the maximum financial benefits from offshore, the maximum financial benefits. They are concerned that we make sure that we control the rate of development. But they are not demanding ownership,whatever that means. They do not care how it is derived as long as the money flowing from the offshore helps to replace the jobs of the 400 miners that are going to lose their jobs in Buchans.

They do not care how that money is derived as long as it buoys up the econo~~~?, fills up our infrastructure • They are looking forward to the day that Newfoundland, having benefited by being part of Canada thi~ past thirty years by billions of dollars, looking forward to the day when they can say we are a have Province thar~s to offshore and now we want to contribute, PREMIER PECXFORD : You got to have ownership. You see, that is the whole point . 466

~larch 6, 1980 Tape No. 176 IB-1 MR. 2~.iGHT: ~nc now we have the right. Now, Mr. Speaker, they are not about to be bluffed, they are not about to be fooled· About the only way that we can have these benefits is by ownershin. And I am not sure that the ~inister ~ ... ..: ~-: ·:--u ~- er11r·~.e n tal ~~LAirs, the House leader (Mr. Marshall) knows w~at he is talking about really when he gets up and talks, the only way we can have the financial benefits. we can have 100 per cent financial benefit and we can con~rol the development without this great unknown ownership. Mr. Speaker, I was amazed when the hen.

House leader stood up a few days ago and suggested that he would bring in legislation that would extend the boundaries of Newfoundland and g~ve us the same rights over those extended boundaries as we have over the forests and the trees.

And I presume he meant that with that,if we did it, then we would be responsible for the offshore surveillance and we would have to create our own Merchant Marine because, you know, we are responsible for the health and welfare and safe~y of the trees in this Province, so I would presume he would not expect complete and total ownership without assuming the responsibilities that went with it. AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. MR. FLIGH'I ·: And I do not know if the minister or the Premier knows at this point in time what exactly that will entail. Mr.

Speaker, what about - you know the Premier alluded to it this morning, I think, in a newscast or an interview- what about,for argument's sake, we all agree that we extend our boundaries and we pass the concurrent legislation he is talking about, we have to define it somewhere. We have to say, Well it is right here, 200 miles out, that is it. But the Continental Shelf goes out 1,000 miles. So what happens two months after if Eastcan or 467

March '5, J 98 0 Tape t;o. 17 6 IB-2 MR. FL!G~T : some other company decide5 it has to put a step out well ten miles outside of the boundaries that we just defined? Does the minister then bring back another piece of legislation and we will eventually end up wanting to own half the North Atlantic? PRE~IER ?ECKFORC : Let us define what we know. Eventually we will deal with what we do not know. MR. <"LIGHT: Let us define what we know. I am afrai~, Mr. Speaker, from what the general public has been subject to in this Province that we do not know what we own at this point in time.

We do not know if we would have to go outside the 200 ~ile limit or the 200 miles he talks about to tap the Hibernia reservoir. We do not know if a step out well can be put twenty miles outside of Hibernia and drain off the very oil that we want to control over the rate of development. we do not know. We do not know. The Premier laughs but we do not know. MR. F. ROWE: Well, if he knows why does he not say? MR. FLIGHT: analogy here. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is an We can make a comparison here.

Some years ago,and everybody will remember,this party, this administration, this government said to the people of Newfoundland on a very nationalistic note, "We have to control our own destiny. We have to nationalize BRINCO. We need to own BRINCO in order to start the immediate development of Churchill Falls, of the Lower Churchill, to have some leverage on changing the contract on the Upper Churchill, to have low electric rates in the Province. We have to do it now. $160 million it is going to cost us.• To date, Mr.

Speaker, that BRINCO deal has cost us $330 million and there is not one Newfoundlander today alive who feels any more secure in his job, who is earning one more cent, not one 468

:·!a:-c:"l .;, 1380 '!'ape No . !76 .i!!-3 ~iR . FLr!;;H"l': job creaced by chac ex?encicure o! S330 ~illion . Are ".Je seeing maybe what oight ~e a replay? Could :he govern ~eot 's approach to offs~ore be a re~lay o! ~he C~urchill sic~a:ion? Could we indeed have our boundaries extended and 2nd up five years down the road realizing that the enormous ~rofits t~a~ were made available :o us by that exten sion is teing creamed off by all the responsi~~lities chac go with the administration of that? ! co not know. Sut obviously the present ~iniste r of Mines and Energy (Mr .

Sarry ) ~~d not know what was going co happen when we nacionalized SRI~CO eit her . So, ~r . Speaker, there are le ts o! things w~ ~o not kr.ow. No~, M:. Spea ker, :e~ m~ say somethi: H; here . 3efore I say this I want co tell the Souse that ! think all the ~embers on the other side o! th~ ~ouse are hono~:able gen~lemen , good, decent, honouraole ~ewfoundland~rs . au~ there is one thing becooin; very, very obviocs to a lot of geople, ~r .

Speaker, that the people who are direct1ng ~raf=ic ~n the other s1de of the House , the r-eople who are manipulating the Premi~~ because he is not old enough to re late to what I am going ~o tal~ ahout 1 are onti-confedera tes . They are the very people , ~r . Spea ker, the hon . House leader, ~he handmaidens of the financial factions on Water St reet who =ought against , Mr . Spea ker , Confede :acion, who fo~ghc to depriv~ Ne wfoundland of the bene~i~s thac we hav e der ived from Confederation . They are now sitting in Cabinet, Mr . speaker, and they are manipulating . 469

• March 6, 1980 Tape No. 177 GH-l !'.R. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, let us haTie soiT'!ething clear, that thirty years ago they fought and they lost. And what did they do? They went underground. They sulked and they slinked and slinged, but they did not have the guts to come out and question our place in Confederation up to a certain point in time. The benefits that flowed from Confederation - it was too obvious. They could not afford t0 do it so they sat back - ~- NEARY: MR. FLIGHT: MR. t-J""EARY: And waited for thirty years. - and waited for a chance - Waited for thirty years. HR.

FLIGHT: - waited for a chance and for thirty years they whittled away, l·!r. Speaker. This adninistration has whittled away at Confederation, watching for a chance. Now, Mr. Speaker, they think they have their chance,offshore. They are not interested, Mr. Speaker, in negotiating a deal that would give Newfoundlanders the total financial benefit of offshore and all the money that we derive thereof,or giving Newfoundlanders their right to control t9e rate of development. They are not interested in that. They want to take a position, ~r.

Speaker, they want to take a position that will shake, that >'ill shake our position in Confederation to its very roots. They know that the debate that would stem from demanding total control over offshore, that debate in itself would shake - MR. PATTERSON: M.~. FLIGHT: MR. PATTERSON: of Union? M.~. NEARY: Terms of Union? MR. PATTERSON: SOME HON. MEMBERS : &'I HON. MEMBER: Would you permit a question? Certainly I will permit a question. Could you explain to us Term 37 of the Terms 'Graham', would you explain Term 32 of the Never answer a question with a question? Hear, hear! Take notice of it. 470

March 5, 1980 Tape No. 177 GH-2 MR. FLIGHT: I will take notice of the question and answer it the next time I address the Hoilse. Now, Mr. Speaker - !11R. NEARY: Tell us about

Section 338 of the Criminal Code of Canada. MR. PATTERSON: Never answer a question with a question. MR. FLIGHT: Now, Hr. Speaker, that hen. government is not interested at all. They have shown by their actions t·his past few months they are not interested at all in arriving at a situation that would guarantee Newfoundland and Newfoundlanders all the benefits, the financial benefits, a 100 per cent financial benefit that would flow from the development of our offshore. They are not interested in making sure that we control the rate of development.

They are not interested in sitting down and negotiating that kind of thing with the ~ederal Government or any other agencies they have to negotiate with. They are interested in setting up the confrontation that we have heard tell of. They are interested in going the nationalistic route, playing on the nationalistic on the need to control our own destiny, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province do not care how they get the benefits. What they want is the financial benefit and they are not the least bit interested - t~ey are proud of being part of the Canadian fabric.

They are proud of the fact that they benefitted for thirty years as a result of the benefits that flowed from Confederation, and now they are looking forward to contributing back. But, Mr. Speaker, this government, having sulk.ed and having watched for a chance, whittled away, whittled away at Confederat:icm. No•·• thev see their chance. Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Eouse Leader (Mr. Marshall), why does he not go all the way? Why fool around with a little piddly piece of legislation that merely extends our boundaries and, you know, gives us an extra 200 miles?

Why does he not put his mandarins to work upstairs or downstairs and his bureaucrats and bring in a piece of legislation that would recommend a referendum, a referendum to secede? Why does he not bring in a piece of legislation? Because that is the game plan. That is the game plan, Mr. Speaker, that is the obvious 471

:-!arch 6, 1980 Tape tro . 17- Gii-3 ~ . !LIGi:T: qa.mf:: p:cn . i;t!y c!oes he no:. ~:in; :!.n a p-iece o: le;isl~tl.c:-o cha.: can p~.:!l ~.:s cu:c al::cget:her? '!'!len, :~.r. Spea::~:::, we will become a sovereign s:ace. Then we •.<ill not have to ?ass concu rring le;islat ion . A~l we will have co eo is to act as a sovergign state and ex~end our boundaries 2::10 or 300 mi:es and create a :o!e rc hant :.:arir.e tha-.: ~~uld ce:end those boundaries, and we ~~uld eo all ~~e things that "e ~~t eo do .

Why does tile mi:-o1.ster not j'.:.t:~;: eve:: all the = oolisr~'1ess h~ is t:a~king about and get right to the end of Ius came plan, bring in a ?ieee of legislat::.on thae would tal:: a~uc '! referendun . That is "here tr.e minist:er ... ·ants w go and tha:: is :.:hy t"lere are s=e peo?le sit::ing O:'! c.~ .ae s1.de o~ ~ !le !!ouse w!':o fo:: -:1'-ir~y .,ea~s , ·.,_avi~c; sat ar.C ~"Ot!"ied and crin ged 472

:-larch 6,