VOL. 3 THIRD SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH GENERAL ASSEHBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEHBLY FOR THE ·PERIOD : 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. HONDAY, APRIL 30, 1984 NO. 27

April 30,1984 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR.SPEAKER(Russell): MR. SPEAKER: Council. MR. MARSHALL: Tape No. 1092 ah-1 Order,please! The hon. President of the Mr. Speaker, before we get into the ordinary routine of business today,I would like to rise to express an expression of sympathy on behalf of the House to the family of the late Irving Fogwill who passed away over the Easter break. Mr. Fogwill is a well know Newfoundlander. He had been connected with the Workers' Compensation Board originally and I believe had been the original architect of that legislation.

He had also been very prominent in the labour movement in this Province and many other provincial and community affairs. So on behalf of the government I would like to propose that a vote of sympathy be extended to the bereaved family. MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR.NEARY: The hon. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I join with the Government House Leader (Mr.Marshall) in paying tribute to a distinguished Newfoundlander, Mr. Irving Fogwill who passed away during the Easter recess of the House. I believe he was 82 years of age. My han. frierid there opposite righ~ly pointed out that Fogwill, the late ttr.

Fogwill was a prominent labour organizer and labour leader in the 1930s and in the 1940s who helped form 1 by the way 1 the Newfoundland Federation of Labour in 1937. In 1946 the late Mr. 2900

April 30,1984 Tape No. 1092 ah-2 MR.NEARY: Fogw±ll was very active in the Confederation issue and helped in two referendums which eventually saw Newfoundlanders and Labradorians freely choose to join the Canadian Confederation. After l949,when we did become a Province o~ Canada1I suppose you could say that the late Mr. Fog1o1i!ll was the architect of the Workers' Compensation legislation, the Workers' Compensation Board in this Province and he was Chairman of that Board for seventeen years. The late Mr. Fogwill will well known in the literary world and publisl).ed several books of poetry.

So I would like to join with my friend there opposite in having a message of sympathy and condolences go out to the bereaved family from this House. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Opposition. MR:.NEARY: ORAL . QUESTIONS The han. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, you would expect after the Easter recess that the Premier and.the ministers woul.d be gung-ho, would be pack in their seats, shirt sleeves:·rolled· up, coats off, ready to tackle the prob.lerns of this Province. And here today we come into this House with questions to the Premier and to the ministers and,lo and behold, 2901

April 30, 1984 Tape 1093 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: we find they are not in their seats, they are absent from the House,and we do not know now '"~om to direct these important questions to that we l1ave to put to the ministers. MR. HODDER: MR. NEARY: Twelve ministers missing. Twelve ministers are missing, Mr. Speak~r, and this is shameful! HR. ROBERTS: You should ask ~·1here they all are. MR. NEARY: No, under the rules, I suppose, we cannot ask that, we cannot go down through the individual ministerE..

But I would like to start out, and, you know, I regret to have to do this, but I suppose I could bounce a few questions off the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall). HR. ROBERTS: HR. TULK: boy. MR. NEARY: South or not. Y0u are starting with the bottom, are you? They are all down South, I suppose, I do not know if they are down The number one problem that we have in this Province, Mr. Speaker, is i1i'}ll une!:!:r>loy·· ment and job creation. It is the number one problem facing the people of this Province, it is the number one issue in this Province today.

I would like for the hon. gentle­ man to tell the House, over the Easter recess, what plans did the administration formulate to deal with the horrendous state of the Newfoundland economy, created by the mismanage­ ment of gentlemen there opposite; and what extraordinary plans does the administration have to create jobs in this Province and to stimulate the Newfoundland and Labrador economy? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the President of the Council. 2902

April 30 I 1984 Tape 1093 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker 1 I refuse to be motivated to anger by the hon. gentlema.t:l· The fact of the matter is, after hearing that long harangue for about three or four minutes, make no wonder that certain people are not here in the Bouse , make no wonder that any nf us would not be here in the Bouse if that is the same type of question, genera lisms 1 that the hon . gentle­ man is going to ask . I can tell the hon. gentleman that most of the ministers are off on business of the government and most of them have not been able to get in .

There are a lot of Newfoundla nders who have not been able to get in, those who have been outside St. John's, because of the weather conditions. I will respond to the hon. gentle ­ man 's question . Does he want me to go on for about an hour and tell the hon. gentlemen what this Provin ce is doing? Shall I motivate the hon. gentleman to his feet again? MR. NEARY: You could get it on the head of a pin. 2903

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1094 MJ- 1 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, policies are well-kr.awn, our resource policies are well-known~ there is the offshore. I would ask the hon. gentleman what the hon~ gentleman is doing with respect to securing a fair deal on the offshore for the people of the Province of Newfoundland. I hope, Mr. Speaker, he is doing a little bit better than the hon. gentleman's reported activity. He visited Ottawa 1we are told 1over the Easter holidays and what did he go up to do? He is pow going up to beg them to secure the, Terms of Union.

I heard reported on CBC today,the announcer was almost in triumphant terms, that Mr. Neary 1 lo and behold,is the saviour of the Newfoundland railway. He was up, Mr. Speaker, and there was good news CBC told us today 1 that Mr. Neary had it assured that the Newfoundland railway was going to continue in Newfoundland. Now;is that not great stuff. Mr. Speaker?

The hon. gentleman has the consummate gall to go up to the people who took the passenger service away ffrom us, who attempted to downgrade the railway here, who forced this Province to out money into the synchrolift~ · Never before has any province of Canada had to finance a federal Crown Corporation.\ Now we are told that now he is delighted because Ottawa is not going to make the final act .of savaqeyy on this Province by completely tearing up the Terms of Vnion 1because 1 as everyone knows 1 the railway is a part of the Terms of Uilion.

But the hon. gentleman there opposite is delighted and glad. : :,His contribution after the Easter holidavs is to come back and tell us, 'No, thE" railway is not going to be closed. ' Anc' we are supposed to be grateful, Mr. Speaker. That is what he does for economic development. So, Mr. Speaker, what we are doing, we are doing the same things as we have been doing since 1979~ we have been asserting the righbs of the people of this Province to their resources. We have not gone cap~in hand to 2904

April 30, 1984 MR. MARSHALL : has and obviously ··----~:..:..;,._ ... _ Tape No. 1094 MJ - 2 Ottawa as the hon. gentleman always is still doing as a result of his sojourn to Ottawa over the Easter ho~idays. We have been attempting to get the enjoyment of the resources of this Province to the same degree as other provinces have: we have taken actions with res pect to thP- neep -s ea fishery that he is aware of; we have taken actions on the West Coast, the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. oower) is very active i~ the situation in Corner Brook with Bowater; we have taken action in the 2905

...... April 30, 1984 Tape 1095 PK - 1 MR. MARSHALL: Burin Peninsula,where Grand Bank now would be closed but for the actions of this government, where Burin would be closed but for the actions of this government, where St. Lawrence,we hope,is going to be opened again by the actions of this government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: We have taken actions, we are monitoring very carefully what has occurred in the Western portion of the Provine~ in Labrador City , the fishery , the offshore, and hydro development.

We are attempting to regain what the han. gentlemen there opposite gave away in hydro development. So, Mr. Speaker, it goes on and on and on. ·what we are doing 1 we are asserting the rights of the Province of Newfoundland. We are not going up like little lapdogs,like the han. gentleman does,begging Ottawa not to take away vested rights under the constitution~ what we are is calmly asserting the rights of the people of this Province to the resources. And I might say, Mr. Speaker, that the han. the Premier is engaged in that action right nowi he is enroute to Gander, he is to speak tomorrow in Halifax.

I have to report to the han. gentlemen there opposite, I know it will be to their great disappointment,that his first address given with respect to the offshore in Moncton was greeted very positively and had very positive results, got a lot of people talking about the rights of the Province of Newfoundland, got ~ very distinguished member of SOME HON. MEMBERS: Right on! MR. MARSHALL: - the Economic Council of Canada coming out and saying,'I do not see why Newfoundland should not be given the same rights as the rest of Canada.' Now, Mr.

Speaker, if a member of the Economic Council of Canada can make ·statement like that,why cannot the Leader of the 2906

April 30, 1984 Tape 1095 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Opposition (Mr. Neary)? Why must the Leader of the Opposition disgrace us all of the time by going up 1crawling on his knees to Ottawa and asking them to save the railway. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! The hon. Leade7 of the Opposition. Mr. speaker, the hon. gentleman obviously ha 's given up on attacking me on the Senate appointtnent, now he is using different strategy today since that one did not work. Now he is going to attack me for trying to save the Newfoundland railway.

Well,I hope the hon. gentleman now will come along behind me 1like a little cracky yapping at my heels 1and support my crusade to try to save the Newfoundland railway and get a commitment from the Government of Canada that t.he railway is here to stay because,as hen. members know,it was on._ly a five year plan to revitalize the railway and that five years will be_up next March. We should lobby now to save the railway. 2907

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1096 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, it is regrettable that the hon. gentleman failed to put forward any plans or suggestions or recommendations or ideas in his answer to improve economic conditions in this Province and to create jobs. Hon. members are aware that we have the highest unemployment in Canada, we have record unemployment, high taxes, vandalis~ and violent crime, rising abortion rates, breakdowns in the family unit and an ever-increasing cost of living and electricity rates.

Now would the hon. gentleman get up man-fashion and tell the House what plans, what extraordinary plans - MR. SIMMS: Do you expect to ask a question like that and get a short answer? MR. NEARY: No. -Mr. Speaker, what extra- ordinary plans does the government have to create employment this Summer, badly needed employment? Would the hon. gentleman also tell us, when he is on his feet, what has happened to the 40,000 jobs that the Premier promised to the people of this Province? The people believed him when he made that promise.

Could the hon. gentleman tell us what has happened to the five year plan to create 4U,OOO new jobs in this Province? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) 1 The hon~ President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman talks about me attacking him on the Senate. I thought I was complimenting him, you know, I thought this was his ambition.

I inean, I will repeat it again, th.e fact of the matter is that a distinguish.ed Senator, Senator Cook, is retiring in June and I fully expect this to be the last sitting for the hon. gentleman in this ffouse. lie only says it because I am the only one, you see, in this House who is promoting him for a position in the Senate, because I understand that other members in the Opposition are trying to get it from him anyway. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ 2908

·.i~· --..... ~-.:.· ... , .............. _~,-:.-..-.:..........._~~- April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1096 SD -2 MR. MARSHALL: So I hope, Mr. Speaker, yes, I hope the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) gets to the Senate. And he better get there quickly1because the Liberal Leadership is in June and I know that they are thinking of other things other than t."IJ..e Senate appointment, but if they think a 1i ttle hit further to the East1 \o~hich they. never think 1 one of the leaders'hip candidates might just make it a plank in his platform to appoint the hon. Leader of the Opposition to the Senate.

And I am sure that \llould have reverberations not only in Newfoundland ,. everyone \llould love to see the hon. gentleman go to the Senate - ~R. f;T~1MS: No, that is not true. MR. MARSHALL: - I am sure1through all of Canada itself. 2909

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1097 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: So what was the han. gentleman's question, Mr. Speaker? What was his question? His question was what are we going to do? Mr. Speaker, I suggest the han. gentleman look at the budget given by the han. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) • Here we have a Province which has the greatest amount of resources perhaps of any Province of Canada but yet it does not enjoy these resources, it enjoys them less than any other Province of Canada.

It has the highest per capita debt, the lowest per capita income, yet it has the highest taxes, it has the lowest revenue base in all of Canada. Yet, Mr. Speaker, if he looks at that budget he will find plenty of actions taken by this government for the purpose of employment. For example 1 what about the roads programme? There is a very substantial roads programme that has been budgeted this year which is going to employ a considerable number of people. The fisheries is underway, The new company is underway 1 and we are doing everything we can with respect to the fishing industry apart from the new super company.

If the han. gentleman wants to look at the budget he will find many instances there where we have guaranteed independent processors and doing every­ thing to foster the fishing industry, so there are going to be jobs there. If the han. gentleman wants to look at this budget, he will see that the government of this Province 1 with minimal resources, have done a more than credible job in providing jobs to the people of this Province.

I remind the han. gentleman that we could do a lot more if we had control of our resources 1 which is what the whole question is about, and is what distinguishes the government from the Opposition, is the reason why the government had acme 2910

April 30, 1984 Tape No 1097 NM- 2 MR. MARSHALL: forty -five members-it had; it has forty-four now that the unelected Liberal crossed over the House, but we had forty -five elected on this sideJ and only seven on the other side and that is the reason, Mr . Speaker, why we will continue in power in the future. MR. SIMMS: A good answer . A g ood answer . MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the first part of the ~on. gentleman's remarks had to do again with the Senate appointment. I would say that is wishful thinking.

The fact that hon. gentlemen would like to see this my last sitting of the House is wishful thinking and Tory propaganda. They would love that, Mr. Speaker. If there is any member they would be glad to get rid of in this aouse it is me. Now, ~- Speaker, instead of hon. gentlemen talking about controlling resources,they should talk about controlling 2911

April 30, 1984, Tape 1098, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: their senses and their tempers if we want to get .anything done. They have spent the last ten or twelve years in opposition. They could co .ntrol their thinking first, Mr. Speaker, before they start about con~rolling anything else. Let me ask the hon. gentleman a couple of specific questions about projects. What about the Trans-Labrador Highway? How much work and how many jobs willrye created this Summer as a result of a continuation or the Trans-Labrador Highway?

We know the people in Labrador West are pretty angry with the Premier for the letter he sent down saying that it would take two years to do an environmental impact study from Ross Point, I believe it is, down to Goose Bay. There will be a delay of two years and that makes the people of Labrador pretty angry. MR. TULK: Even the minister from Labrador(Mr. Goudie) is pretty upset about it. MR. NEARY: And the minister from Labrador is probably upset about that, too. What about the Trans­ Labrador Highway? And, Mr. Speaker, what about the transmission lines down toward the Strait of Belle · Isle from Labrador?

What about that? Will that be started this year? And could the hon. gentleman be a little more specific on the road building this year? Are there any agreements in place with the Government of Canada to carry out any of these road projects that the hon. gentleman is talking about? And what about new business and industry? What about the aluminum smelter that we heard so much about?

And when the hon. gentleman is on his feet let him also tell this House, while we have the time and there are no ministers in their seats to answer any other questions, how many young people will be employed by the government, Summer employment, this coming 2912

April 30, 1984, Tape 1098, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Summer? And how will they be hired? Will it be done in the same old way as it has been done in the past, it is not what you know but whom you know? Is that the way people will be hired this coming Summer, Mr. Speaker, under the government's Summer employment programmes? Will the hen. gentleman answer some of these questions? ' MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER(Russell): of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: not looking. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. The hen. the President Is he finished? I was Hear, hear! Mr.

Speaker, to get back to his first topic, the Senate, he loves talking about the Senate because that advertises, you see - MR. NEARY: No, you do. MR. MARSHALL: - it will get reported in the press and somebody will pick it up. Now, the hen. gentleman loves it, and we love hearing it, but there is one person who obviously does not; we drove the member for the Strait of Belle Isle(Mr. Roberts) out of the House when we spoke of him getting the Senate seat. The trans-Labrador Highway: He asked about - HR. YOUNG: Tell ~i~ Mel Woodward is going to build it. 2913

April 30, 1984 Tape 1099 EC .,. 1 MR. MARSHALL: -the Trans-Labrador Highway. I tell the hon. gentleman there would not have been any start on the Trans-Labrador Highway but for the insistence of this government in its negotiations of agreements with Ottawa. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: This government is determined that the Trans-Labrador Highway will become a reality and will continue to do everything it possibly can to see that that comes about. Imagine, ~~. Speaker, the hon. gentleman having the consummate gall to get up and ask about a transmission line!

Here is the hon. gentleman who participated in the give-away in Labrador - SOME HON. MEMBERS : .MR. MARSHALL: Hear, hear! - which would have provided the very wherewithal to provide for not only transmission lines, but roads and industries and everything else to develop Lanrador as it should and will be developed in the future. What does the hon. gentleman expec~, to build a trans­ mission line through Labrador when you do not have a ,secure source of power?

Nhy does not the hon. gentleman, when he gets up and talks about the transmission line, address and express the indignation that all Newfoundlanders should feel at the decision of the National Energy Board, which denied us the right to get power from the Province of Quenec because 'tTe did not have the transmission line Built? I ask the National r.nergy Board and the ~enber for LaPoile, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), how does anyone expect a transmission line to be built if you do not have a source of p01:•!er r:ruaranteed? How possibly, Mr. Speaker, could anyone contemplate building 2914

April 30, 1984 Tape 1099 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: a transmission line without having a source of power? And, of course, that source of power is there, the only problem is that it has been given away. It is the power of the Upper Churchill. ~m. sn~~s: MR. MARSHALL: Tell us a!Jout the give-aHa~. And, you know, instead of asking questions like that, why does not the hon. gentleBan, like a Newfoundlander and a Labradorian, get up and face the issues as they are? If we did not have creatures, Mr. Speaker, like the hon. gentleman, crawling ~round the landscape in this Province, we would probably be further ahead.

He just asks questions of this particular nature, no depth to them, no substance whatsoever! Imagine the gall to .get up in the people' s House and ask about the building of a transmission line! Now, why would he build a transmission line? What does he want it for, to hang dirty clothes out on? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Because that is the only use he could have for a transmission line, as a result of the policies of the han. gentlemen and their friends in Ottawa and the National Energy Board, the whole bunch of them.

So imagine the han. gentleman getting up and talking about a transmissiorrline! 2915

April 30, 1984 . Tape 1100 PK - 1 MR. MARSHALL: As to road building, look ,it is there in the Budget. The Budget provides for a very, very substantial road building programme for the ensuing year. The Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) appeared down at his estimates and was examined at it. I am sure if the han. gentlemen wants to ask question of the minister from time to time he can give them information with respect to it. But the fact of the matter is the road building programme in this Province is substantial. It would be substantial if we were an affluent Province. But, Mr.

Speaker, it is amazing the road building programme in this Province when you consider the small resources that we have. What was the other question he asked? the aluminum smelter. The aluminum smelter, Mr. Speaker, is ongoing,as the han. gentleman knows. The Minister of Development (Mr. ~indsor) is working quite hard with respect to the aluminum smelter. But that aluminum smelter, Mr. Speaker, also has exactly the same basis as the transmission line itself. For an aluminum smelter to come into existence,to make it attractive in Labrador we have got to have a cheap source of power. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I say again we have a cheap source of power,the only problem is the hon. gentleman who is now . urging us to build aluminum smelter unfortunately was a party to giving it away a few years ago. When we get the situation rationalized we will be able to meet all of these considerations. In the meantime,the Minister of Development is working valiantly with respect to that to see what we can fashion together from the resources that we have ~ and he is doing a good job and making a goad fist of·it. 2916

-·· .....,;. ., ...... ,;..~. - -.....;~...; ..... ·~~ ...... - April 30, 1984 Tape 1100 PK - 2 MR . MARSHALL: Now the other thing he asked about '"'nS hiring . Look,there is an accepted hiring practice in this government and it is reasonable and it is a fair hiring practice and that will be adopted and implemented with respect to all hiring. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. NEARY: The han. Leader of the Opposition . The only thing ~hat should be hung on the transmission line is the han . gentleman's snakelike tongue so he would not be squirting poison and venom across the floo r of this House, Mr. Speaker.

The han. gentleman gets up and makes wild irresponsible statements about an han . gentleman is responsible for this and responsible for that. Well,we are as much responsible for that now as the han. gentleman is. But, Mr. Speaker, that is a great bluff the han. gentleman runs. Now let me ask the bon. gentleman thi s when he is talking about the availability 291 7

April 30,1984 Tape No. 1101 ah-1 MR. NEARY: of electricity , of power to justify the construction of a transmission line. Did Quebec offer this Province 800 megawatts of power that would justify the construction of a transmission line? In the current round of negotiations that are taking place with the province of Quebec,did Quebec offer to give the Province 800 megawatts , return to the Province 800 megawatts of power as a part of the package that is currently on the table?

And would the han. gentleman tell the House what the counterproposal was from the administration that he is a member of, what the counter proposal was? MR.SPEAKER (R~ssell): the Council. The han. President of MR.MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to say, _and the han. gentleman need not think that I am going to say what was discussed in the course of those negotiations for one very good reason, the conclusions to date of those negotiations thatwe hope that those negotiations will continue.

We desire on all fronts to arrive at an amiable settlement of all of these outstanding issues, and- we are not going to reveal what went on in those negotiations at the present time while there is any possibility of those negotiations continuing one for this reason. Once you get it out in public and you start negotiations in public it is not a satisfactory form and as a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, it will probably result in the negotiations not foundering. So we are just not going to do it.

All I can say to the han. gentleman there opposite is we will stick our record up against theirs at any time from the point of view of protecting the interests of 2918

April 30,1984 Tape No. 1101 ah-2 MR .MARSHALL: the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. And when he asks questions like that,my only response to him is I hope we do not appear as green to him as he appears gray to us. SOME BON.MEMBERS : MR.SPEAKER (Russell): MR . TULK: Hear, bear ! The bon. member for Fogo. I have a question for the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr . Dawe) and it concerns a problem tnat has been ongoing for some time in this Province , namely,the signing of a Rural Development agreement for Newfoundland between the Province and the federal government .

I would like to ask the minister just when ~e hopes to have the agreement signed and just what areas of this agreement he now has with the federal minister, Mr . Lumley? 2919

APril 30, 1984 Tape No. 1102 MJ- 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, last week signaled to this Province the first time in the negotiations or discussions, which have been taking place following our submission of a proposal two years age to Ottawa, in which the Ottawa position was made in writing. We finally have that in writina now in which Mr.

Lumley suggests certain conditions to be met in order to have an agreement in place • T.he only thing I can tell the hon. member and the House at this time is that government is addressing itself to the proposal made.

It is somewhat different than the submission that we sent Ottawa two years ago in that initially we asked for a cost-shared agreement based on the same principles as the two preceeding agreements of approximately $39 million; The offer which has come back is substantially less than that in terms of dollars and in terms of some the programmes to be offered,so we as a government are analysing the proposal made and will be deciding whether or not it can be acceptable and certainly as soon as that decision is reached, which' it will be in the vezy near future, ·I would hope, '•Te will communicate that to Mr.

Lumley and see how it goes from there. MR. TULK:. MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: I would like to ask the minister,since he is aware without any doubt of the letter that was sent to the Premie~ about one of the things that was mentioned in that letter to the Premier by the minister, Mr. Lumley, that project decisions under the development fund will be designated to a rural development board comprised of individuals drawn from private sector representatives and government officials selected by the two governments according to how much they are putting into the programme itself.

I would 2920

April 30, 1984 Tape No . ll02 MJ - 2 MR . TULK: like to telJthe minister I find that to be somewhat attractive because I believe that rural develooment should perh aps be, and one of the contentions has been in the signing of that rural development agreement that the rural development movement should be separated from political influence and political interference, and it seems to me that that rural development board will certainly go a long wa ys to sto p ~aving the provincial politician or the federal politician interfere or intervene in any of the decisions that affect rural development in the Province.

I would like to ask the minister if then he agrees with that type of structure that the~nister, Mr. Lumle y, has put forward,and .if he finds that perhaps one of the most attractive parts of the pr9posal that has been put forward by Mr. Lumley? 2921

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1103 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, as I said in my earlier answer, government is addressing itself to that overall letter and the component which the han. gentleman SD - 1 just mentioned is one of them that we are concerned about. I do not think government would have any difficulty with a board administering this cost-shared agreement and deciding upon certain progr~mrnes to be implemented under an agreement if and when it is signed. The difficultv I would have, and this is just an initial reaction, Mr.

Speaker, we have to bear in mind that government has not made a decision on the matter yet, but if we were to implement a board to administer this agreement or any other whereby the membership is made up based on the cost sharing formula , let us just say it is a 90/10 cost-shared agreement and there are ten members on the board, the federal goverment appoints nine, the Province appoints one. That would give us some difficulty. But, r1r. Speaker, as I suggested,we are analyzing th .e proposal. The idea of a management board is fine, I have no difficulty with that whatsoever.

It is how the board is· made up and who appoints the members to the board that is one of the concerns we have and one upon which \'ie will be making our decision very shortly. MR; TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary on the thing. I find it strange that the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) has problems with setting up a board.

And it is not the administration of the programme that we are talking about, we are talking about a Rural Development Board for project fundinq that he has - - some difficulty; and yet the ~inister of Fisheries (Mr. Morganl can very well go along and sign a fisheries 2922 ·

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1103 so - 2 MR. TULK: agreement which is in proportion to w·hat he is contributing and to his shares in that company. But let me ask him this question. I have picked up over the weekend and over the past week the idea that indeed the Province itself may be qoing to fund rural development associations themselves,that the Premier has indicated to some people in the Province that the Province is prepared to fund rural development associations themsel ves.

I would like to ask the minister if he has been in consultation with the Newfoundland and Labrador Rural Development Council,as far as that goes, as to whether they share the view that the Province should fund the rural development movement itself or whether indeed it should be a joint agreement between the Province and the federal government and what they are pressing for exactly 1 the Newfoundland and Labrador Rural Development Council? MR. SPEAKER (Ru ssell) : The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, in the short

preamble given by the hon. gentleman 1 I think he may have misunderstood my answer. I have no difficulty with a board which would administer project funding under an agreement,if and when it is to be signed 1 but it is the make up of that board and the number of people nominated by either of the two governments .i:rtvolved. !:!m'lever, that is one of the points that we are addressing. On the matter of meeting with the Rural Development Council on their reaction to proposals made, the Premier and I, I know, have met on a couple of occasions with the outgoing Newfoundland and Labrador Rural Development Council 2923

~· April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1104 NM- l MR. GOUDIE: and the incoming new president who was just recently elected in Gander. We presented our position to that group and to development associations throughout the Province- The -position that they adopted, han. gentlemen may recall,several months ago was the Rural Development Council supported the idea put forth by the government of this Province that it should be a cost sha~ed agreement between the two governments so that no association or the council would feel dependent on either ~ne, and that is my understanding of what their position is.

That is why we have been pushing so hard to get a cost shared agreement in place as opposed to one or the other government · picking up the whole bill. And to ensure, Mr. Speaker, that we have adequate time to deal with the proposal on the table now from Mr. Lumley and other concerns we have, the Province has provided something in the vicinity of $420,000 of interim financing over the first three months of this fiscal year for the development associations, the Development Council and to craft development associations as well. So our interest is there.

In signing ~n agreement 1the council ~rted ,and still supports the proposal put forth by the Province, and hopefully if we can agree to a new agreement being in place they will agree to that as well. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please: The time for the Question Period has expired. 2924

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1104 NM - 2 ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion the H.ouse resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and Means to consider the raising of supply to be t:rrahted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Budget Debate. The han. member for Port au Port. I SOME HCDN. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Will we ever get back to the Throne Speec:::h? MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I listened with some interest to . the answers which were gi.ven by the House Leader opposite {Mr. Marshall) today concerning the job creation that this government has embarked upon.

He mentioned specifically the road building programme throughout the Province where the Province has put an extra amount of money into roads. Now, Mr. Speaker, the truth of the · 2925

April 30, 1984 Tape 1105 PK - 1 MR. HODDER: matter is for the past three or four years the roads budget in this Province has been very, very low. And across this Province from one end of the Province to the other, and I have had the opportunity of driving most of this Province throughout the Summer with the Food Prices Committee and even throughout the Easter break I was in some remote parts of the Province, the fact of the matter is that the money spent on road building in this Province this year will not even go close to the needs for roads. I often wonder, Mr.

Speaker, when a road is no longer a road~ we see a line on a map, a dotted line or a solid line to denote the classification of the road, but in some areas ; of this Province at the present time I think the lines should be erased from all of the maps because the roads have now become cowpaths and should have a long broken line. Mr. Speaker,•so the government ... brags about the money that was spent on bridges and roads, but to get to the matter of bridges I am told by people in the Department of Transportation that we have large numbers of bridges in_this Province which must be replac~d.

It is not a matter. of the government trying ·to create capital works throughout the Province 1it is a matter of the safety of the citizens. And even with the large amount of money for roads and bridges that will be spent throughout the Province this year, we still have bridges which must be replaced and must be repaired. So any government that consider that to be their job creation programme 1 then I think , Mr. Speaker, that is very, very weak indeed. Mr. Speaker, I stand here at a time in the Province when unemployment is higher than it has ever been before.

The worst group in the Province, the highest unemployment,is amongst our young people. They are without 2926

April 30, 1984 Tape 1105 PK - 2 MR. HODDER: work. I suggest to members opposite that they. should perhaps-meet with some of the young people around this Province and find out the desperation with which they face_the future. The unemployment in some areas of the Province amongst the youth reaches as high as 90 per cent, and there are studies and documentations which have shown that.

This has given rise to social conditions which are readily apparent; any time you look at the papers you see a rise in crime and violence, we have desperation, we have people who are trying to scrape to keep their families fed, we have now started a - - system where when a person goes on social assistance, he is given~ten weeks work and then -goes on UIC, and then the government has decided they have created jobs. They actually bragged about it in the Budget,the number of jobs that would be created through mane¥ in Social Services. Mr.

Speaker, what we are not doing is trying to create the type of business climate in this Province that will give rise to permanent jobs. MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. HODDER: We are 2927

April 30, 1984, Tape 1106, Page 1 -- apb MR. HODDER: on a treadmill, which, if we continue, this Province will lag behind the rest of the country for years, and years, and years to come. Now, let us look at what was in the budget, because the one thing that the administration was praised for in this particular budget was the fact that they lowered the corporate income tax from 12 per cent to 10 per cent, and the retail sales tax was removed from all manufacturing and capital equipment, and there was a venture capital programme of $500,000.

Now, I want to talk about that for a little while because some people, or at least one or two people in the Province thought that that was a good thing, and, I suppose, all small business­ men would like to see less tax. But I think in the next few minutes I might point out to the government where they should have been going and where they missed the boat in trying to stimulate small business in this Province. Mr. Speaker, Canada's future it seems at the moment, when we look at industrial countries in this world, Japan and the United States, is with high technology.

In order to compete in this world today it is a global oriented economy. We in Newfoundland for a long time missed the opportunities to be able to partake in the global world economy because Newfoundland's - - - - - markets are farther away than ever before. But most important, in the 1960s we did try to form industries .in this Province and we found - because the perception ; when this Province went into confederation was that we would be like Ontario and, therefore, sometimes politicians responsive to the people try to do what they can - that many of these smaller industries failed. 2928

April 30, 1984, Tap e 1106, Page 2 -- ap b MR . HODDER : We are now in a world economy where small countries like Formosa, H~ng Kong, Korea are leaders. I t:eneuber whe11 a Japanese product ~qas considered to be an inferior product, if it came from Japan it was inferior, but we find now that Japanese products have become superior . We always had a problem within the Canadian Confederation because of the globa l area in which we live to try and sell manufactured products to ' other parts of the world . Throughout the 1960s and 1970s we lost our appreciation of the global economy, in particular in terms of our small business . 2929

April 30, 1984 Tape 1107 EC - l MR. HODDER: But, Mr. Speaker, in this day and age there is a growing sophistication of small scale technology and geographically we can compete. The problems which plagued the Newfoundland economy in the past are not necessarily the same problems of today. But one of the things that we have developed in this Province is an anti-business feeling. We have no trainin0 for entreFreneurs. We have very few people who are taking the chance to get into small business.

Now, I believe I read somewhere that the top 500 companies, P.ortune's top 500 companies, did not produce one job in the United States last year, as a matter of fact ·jobs have been declining, but small business is growing and flourishing and has been creating jobs at a great rate. There was a study done by HIT which said that small business fails at a consistent rate throughout the ~.\Thole of the United States~ there is a consistency in rate of failure, but it is consistent throughout the whole of the United States, the figures do not change. You can actually predict what chance small business has to flourish.

The Canadian Federation of Independent Business says that between 1970 and 1979, small firms created 500,000 new jobs in CanaCla, which ~·!as 50 per cent or 60 per cent of all new jobs. The u.s. National Science Foundation estimated that a dollar invested in small enterprise is twenty times more likely to produce a significant gain than a dollar invested in a larger enterprise. So, Mr. Speaker, I think that there is a feeling throughout the United States and throughout Canada that small business is where we will create the 2930

April 30, 1984 Tape 1107 EC - 2 MR. HODDER: jobs - and I am talking about jobs in Newfoundland - more quickly, they respond to changing conditions more quickly and they are more responsive to the communities in which they are located. Where are we in Newfoundland as far as job creation is concerned? The courses which we have in our vocational schools in this Province are courses that were developed in the 1960s, they were good for the 1960s: heavy equipment operators, linesmen, etc.

A lot of the courses,developed when the vocational schools and the College of Trades and Technology were built, were progressive at the time, but we have not changed our courses quickly enough and we have no type of entrepreneurial spirit within th~ Province. Mr. Speaker, nowhere in the budget does the government commit itself to the develop­ ment of opportunities for self-employment, even though we have the largest, highest unemployment r?te the Province has ever seen. Now, Mr. Speaker, where did we go wrong in the budget?

It is now common thinking that in order to develop small business incentives to existing business is not enough; that is what we did in the budget, exce?t for the $500,000 Venture Capital. It is the thinking of economists and others - and there has been some proof , and I will come to that in a little while - that in order to develop small business, you must be able to involve people and set up a climate 2931

April 30, 1984 Tape No. ll08 MJ - 1 MR. HODDER: where people want ' ~to get in business. !-!ore and more we hear in this Province, 'I would like to do this but the climate is not right.' It is my contention, Mr. Speaker, that the government with its doom and gloom, which I will get to a little bit later, and the statement the Premier made on television before the budget came down and then the budget haveonly heightened this particular awareness. Mr. Speaker, what is needed in · this Province is not money infusion into existing business.

What we need in this Province and what I would like to see the government do, which has been done in other provinces and other parts of the world which I will get to, is that companies need to be as~sisted to find markets. There has to be attention given to encourage formation of companies, to encourage people to get into small business. It is a proven fact that tax incentives and loan guarantees are of little use or no help in business formation,and that is where we stand in this Province. The problem is buisness formation.

Many of the companies which will receive those grants, those tax breaks, will probably survive anyway. I do not know if people realize that we are going at the present time into an age of new technology in a province where there is no feeling of entrepreneurialship, where there is no business climate, there is no feeling of private enterprise, where our young people are without jobs, where many of our older residents are without jobs, where UIC has become a ~way of li~e and it is very, very difficult. And most important, Mr.

Speaker, I want to say that in our school system, even with the extended high school sy,stem 1 there is nothina in Newfoundland which would lead people to want,to become businessmen in the Province. There are no courses, no information disseminated. We are still training 2932

...... -- ·- .. ,. ________ _ April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1108 MJ- 2 MR. HODDER: people throughout our high schools in the main to attend university, perhaps to attend vocationals schools. We are not motivating the business envircnment, the people who are growing up,to be self-starters. I have often thought, Mr.

Speaker, that if you brought a number of highly trained people from Formosa .or from Taiwan or from the Pacific rim countries and dropped them in the middle of Labrador,because of this b\lsiness spirit which · : •they have within a short time that that particular remote part o•f Labrador will be manufacturing, ~aterials would be coming in, goods would be manufactured and the place would be properous,because it is a matter of the people believing they can do it, that spirit must be there and we in this Province are falling farther and farther and farther behind.

Our economy we know, it has been said by the government, lags behind the Canadian economy by a couple of years, the Canadian economy lags behind the American economy,and here we are in this Province with a new revolution. The oil will not help. You can have all the Hibernias you want, it may last for forty years, it may last for fifty years and perhaps the Province will be on an even keel,but unless you encourage that particular spirit then we are lost in the long run because it is our people 2933

April 30,1984 Tape No. 1109 ah-1 MR.HODDER: who must be able to develop this Province. And perhaps 1 as I have often said, Mr. Speaker, perhaps we would have been better off. What would this government have done if they did not have the promise of oil? But, Mr. Speaker, what is it that this government can be doing to encourage, because that is where jobs come from.

If you sit and you ask yourself how do we create jobs, it is not enough for the government to say, 'We put $1 million in social assistance and we .put all these people to work and now they are on unemployment insurance.' Unemployment insurance is just as destructive as social assistance.It is not enough to'say that. How do we create permanent jobs? Where do we put our money? We have to put our mone into developing and we have to start somewhere. We have to start in the schools and we have to start in other ways.

In a couple of minutes I will talk about some of the experiments that have been done in other parts of the world and in Canada which have been successful. But, Mr. Speaker, the one thing, and I have mentioned this before, is entrepreneurial training training people to be able to get into the business world themselves. Secondly, one of ~he problems that we have here in this Province is that we have people who are able to run businesses but we need market research. People must be able to take part and be able to tap_ .into' market research. We need product development-in the Province.

We need the expenses and financing to be able to get people involved and we need follow-up consultation. Mr. Speaker, in 2934

April 30,1984 Tape No. 1109 ah-2 MR. HODDER: England, in Wales, Central Wales is much like Newfoundland in that they had a very, very rural economy based mostly on agriculture. If you look at agriculture,40 per cent of Americans, for instance, back in the early part of this century were on the land working and now only 2 or 3 per cent are on the land working, and the economy of Wales was much the same. N9w ip the past five years the Wales Development . Board, which is held as being a very, very good organization, . has assisted in the creation of 1000 jobs.

And they have done it by 1 first of all, something that we rarely ever do -we are on a reverse trend in Newfoundland- they encourage outsiders to come in and set up business there. The board has a free rein . as to what it does. It is not controlled by the government.Everything that has ever existed in this Province has strings on it from government •. ~t is close to the communities. They have worked out methods and have done their market research and development and the financing by working in close harmony with the communities.

They have distributed booklets in primary schools and they have put computer-based business games into all the schools so that children in the schools can use the computers to play business games. It is a matter of trying to arrange this type of entrepreneurial spirit but, at the same time try, to foster within the community businesses that will work with the available resources that are there or bring outsiders in. And that is the sort of direction that this Province must go in. That is the direction that we have to go. We have to try and develop. It is not enough to throw money at businesses.

I gave an example here in the House 2935

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1110 MR. HODDER: of Assembly the other day of a fish husiness in my district where the !.Jroblem 1"as that ~ r;_y SD - 1 sensible person in this world ever looked at it,and I am not a business man by any stature and have never been 1 but I could look at the books of that company and see that they were bankrupt. The Province gave them $90,000 . and bragqed about it.

Every time I see the list of the Fisheries Department, they gave them $90,000 1 which was just enough to be able to put the fellow into business for the last fishing year.,and the upshot was at the end of the year he had no assets, he was in a rented building, he just had one or t1•7o fish processin~ tables which belonged to the manufacturer, which he had not paid for, a couple of old trucks, and he owed $50,000 to the fishermen which the fishermen have never gotten. Now that is not the 1"ay you develop small business in this Province. You do not throw money at business.

It has to be carefully nurtured and developed. You know, Mr. Speaker, I think that perhaps it is not wrong to say anymore that there is nothing wrong to encourage people to become millionaires, because if we do not develop that kind of spirit, if we do not develop that kind of thinking, we are never going to create the jobs, we are just always going to be dependent on Ottawa, we will'be dependent ori the offshore. The offshore will come, there will be fast money around, business will s·tart and finish, but we still will not have developed business . - - - -- - ~ - - -· -- - -- leade:r:-!'l.

Outsiders 'iVill come. in1 and we encourage that, but we ourselves need that type of motivation which will allow us to get involved. And the government has not addressed itself to that in this budget, it did not address itself to it in the 19.83 budget and it has not addressed itself to it in any budget that we have had. So for the ten years that this 2936

April 30, 1984 MR. HODDER: we are slipping behind. MR. NEARY: MR. HODDER: Tape No. 1110 SD ~ 2 government has been in power Twelve years. The twelve years that the government has been in power we have slipped behind. You know, twelve years · ago our vocational schools were offering courses which were in line with the 1960s ·, now we are still offering courses which are in line with the 1960s. We have not progressed one little bit. As a matter of fact~ we have fallen back. MR. NEARY: We have a bad ·Minis .·ter of Education lMs. Verge l:. MR.

HODDER: Not only the Minister of Education, but the Minister of Education has no idea whatsoever as to what should be done. She has no idea whatsoever,' she has no . vision~ of where we are going in 1990s, no vision whatsoever v1here we will be going in the 1990st but she is not alone. The problem is that the Premier has no vision. The problem with the government is that the . Premier has decided not to make the mistakes of the past,but he has forgottenr his vision has been clouded politically, that there were many successes in the past.

He is motivated more by a dislike of the Canadian mainland ·than for his like of the Canadian - - - - - mainland. Ite has Imilt himself this platform: "I ~-till 2937

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1111 NM - 1 MR. HODDER: not give in. I will not allow this Province to go down the drain. I will not do this, I will not make the mistakes of the past." I sincerely believe, with every­ thing in me, that in ten years time he will be looked at as the worst premier that we have ever seen and this will be looked at as the worst administration that has ever governed in this Province. MR. NEARY: The laziest and the greediest Premier. Any excuse to get out of the House, out of the Province. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, this government has forgotten everything about the people.

The government - and the charge has been made before - the government thinks in terms of,first,their own salvation, and their own salvation is tied up with first preserving their hides in an election and using whatever issue comes before them to work it to their own advantage. And I think I would like to talk about that for a second.

I am ~ little bit off the track but it still hinges on the thinking of the government, that the government in terms of trying to get itself elected has left itself vulne~able to the terms of history, what history will say of them, and as far as the offshore oil agreement is concerned, I hear the Minister without Portfolio responsible for the Petroleum Directorate (Mr.

Marshall) ,for which we have no constitutional authority at the moment, I hear the House Leader opposite talk about the problems, and about how we cannot get along with Ottawa and how they have done this to us and that to us, One thing I have never been able to understand 1 and I - - make no pretence, that I know everything about the offshore 2938

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1111 NM - 2 MR.

HODDER: oil agreements , I have read them, I have looked at them - but I do not understand that in any negotiation why _, if a person has a bottom line and he knows what he wants, if the minister knows what he wants, he goes into the negotiations - if he went into negotiations witho?t knowing what his objectives were he was going to fail - but if you do have a bottom line and you know where you are going,why would you break off negotiations, why would you make statements such as have been made recently that we will not negotiate until there is a change - there seems to be a door left open, if somebody new cqmes - why would a government that was given a mandate by the people to negotiate, why would they not sit down and continue to . negotiate? i Whether the minister is right, whether the federal government is right, whether one side broke off or the other side broke off, whether the government who are trying to negotiate by letter, whether they are right and that is the right thing or whether that is the wrong thing, why would you ever break off negotiations?

As long as people talk there is always a chance for compromise. And why is it that this government is not talking on the offshore at the present time? If you know your bottom line, if you know what you want, why are we not still negotiating and n~gotiatinq and negotiating? MR. PEACH: That is what your boss would do, give it away. MR . HODDER: Mr .. Speaker, we were not elected to govern. 2939

April 30, 1984 Tape 1112 PK - 1 MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, in this House of Assembly the govarnment very often tries to - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HODDER: The hon. ~s opposite obviously do not like what is being said. And one of the tactics in this House of Assembly, and people should re~lize that, is the Opposition is elected to oppose, the government is elected to govern. And backbenchers like the hon. member governs no more than I do , he is just a pawn in the government's hands, the Cabinet makes the decision. MR. PEACH: Cabinet? MR. HODDER: When are you going into the Mr.

Speaker, I expect that after the next election the han. member will be retired, so will most of the han. members over there,and we will form the next government. I have no doubt about that whatsoever, I see the member for Carbonear (Mr. Peach) there and I have had some association with his district over the past few weeks,and I watched the television programmes, and I told the han. member last Summer that it was the only chance he had, the only possible chance that he had would be to come over here.

And I said I am not sure we would take him 1 that is another matter, but I said that wou·ld be the only c.hance he had come the next election. I told him that last Summer. Now the han. member knows I tell the truth. He knows what I say is true. MR. TOBIN: Do you know in Marystown we cannot get a place ~ o hold a meeting, a politcal rally, the arena only holds 1,700? MR. HODDER: Oh, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker! Just to continue on, Mr. Speaker, to give some idea what other areas , what other provinces and what other countries are doing in New Brunswick they have 2940

April 30, 1984 Tape 1112 PK - 2 MR. HODDER: a programme, and in Sydney, Nova Scotia, the new DAWN programme have been quite successful in creating new business.

In Hawaii,oddly enough, and there is no reason why we in NewfoundJand cannot look at examples elsewhere in the world, in Hawaii oddly enough they find unemployed people, bring .them in- I believe it it called the Hawaii Development Institutue.- they actually bring unemployed people in, interview them, and then if they feel that they have the social skills and the mental skills 1they then put them through a course which stresses business skills and the success rate has been two to one •. We have never done that. There has been no thrust.

I mentioned what was happening in Wales, but in Hawaii they take them to workshops, they go through a business development courses. They just take the unemployed from the street and try to train them. In Sydney, Nova Scotia,which is very close to home,they have received government funds to encourage economic development. They as well t!ain people and help people to set up companies and corporations and apparently at the present time they have a cashflow in the millions of dollars and they have several successful enterprises.

And han. members know that Sydney was a coal mining town and the mines closed down 1but they have been very successful. And we have 2941

April 30, 1984, Tape 1113, Page 1 -- apb MR. HODDER: never seen in this Province any attempt of that nature. In New Brunswick we find the same sort of operation. I forget the name of the group they had in New Brunswick, but they have the same type of corporation which is classed as being very successful. When in this Province are we goi~g to try and pay attention? And the minister gets up and talks about the fact that there was some money for roads and bridges to create employment. That is what they are doing for the youth of this Province. Mr.

Speaker, it is time that the government realized that,unless we start to try and work on our young people,the tragedies we are seeing around this Province at the present time, and there are tragedies, the marital break-ups, the trouble that people are having to send their children to school, the crime which we see on the increase, this will continue and intensify. We are in a very bad situation in this Province, even for the offshore oil to come ashore.

Because with the desperation of our people at the present time, the desperation which you see, and.I am sure hon. ' gentlemen ;on the other side know what I say, because some hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House have high unemployment districts, . or they have areas in their districts where there is high unemployment. And if han. members are visiting their ·constituencies and visiting the people there then they will realize that what I say is so, that there are some areas of this Province which are in total desperation. I wanted to talk about one other thing, as far as the budget was concerned.

The Board of Trade, of course, can come out and say that the budget was wonderful, they gave us a 2 per cent reduction 2942

April 30, 1984, Tape 1113, Page 2 -- apb MR. HODDER: in taxes. By the way, the $500,000 venture capital, I would say that might be good for one industry, if it were a viable industry. What kind of money is that for a Province 1 in the sitaution that we are in, for venture capital? That was just a pittance thrown in. The 2 per cent reduction in the corporate tax to small business, no one has defined what small business is yet - I think on the mainland of Canada they define small business as businesses turning over less than $1 million a year - but there are all sorts of

interpretations of small business and we certainly have not found out what small business is yet. Certainly, if people were to think a little fart~1er thev would realize the - I - hopeless environment in which business has to survive in this Province, the hopeless, totally barren environment in which business has to survive! We have a government who by its very nature and by its pronouncements have driven people away,by our local preference policices. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, no ! Oh , no ! MR. HODDER: Oh, yes! Oh, yes!

We even got to a po~nt in this Province at one time where we had communities setting up local preference policies and the Minister of Municipal (Mrs. Newhook) was strong enough, in one particular case in this Province, to go -out and say, 'no, you cannot have a local preference policy.' Because the same thing can work provincially as well as federally. But we have set up barriers, we have set 2943

April 30, 1984 Tape 1114 EC - 1 MR. HODDER: up a climate here which is anti-investment. We even get people who try to get into this Province, who write letters to the paper trying to get hold of the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) and cannot do it. We just are not encouraging people in. And any chance we had of trying to be a world leader in ocean research development or anything like that, uhile >ve have the expertise, the university has the people there, we are not seeing the spinoff, we are not seeing research and development. Mr. Speaker, there was a conference here in the Province on the role of research and development in the Province. I will just give a

summary of a report which was done by a professor at Memorial University. He said, ":Research and develo?- ment is the key to achievement of economic progress for Canada in the difficult years ahead. This is particularly true for Newf~undland with its resource base:being faced with strong competition and new technologies being applied offshore. One answer is to give research and development some role in most economic development and commercial activity. R and D should be accepted as a natural cost of product~on for the purpose of keeping the product or service competitive.

Concentration of effort, such as Cold Ocean Research in ret.. John's, accentuates t~1e achieve­ ment of economic benefit. The application of advanced technologies through applied research and development could lead to new products, new manufacturing opportuni­ ties and economic advantages. Research must have long­ range plans and goals, with a degree of sustained funding in order to fulfil its role. Government should measure research by net cost rather than gross cost, as a large part of the expenditure is returned through taxes, 2944

April 30, 1984 Tape 1114 EC - 2 MR. HODDER: employment and purchases·." HR. CARTER: You were reading that. MR. HODDER: Oh, yes, I was reading that from a book. It was a

summary done by Professor Snyder at Hemorial University of ~1ewfoundland. Mr. Speaker, I cannot stress enough, in the environment which we are in, when you have to go out and face people and you have a government that says, 'Oh, yes, we are creating jobs: We are building roads, we are building the Confederation Building extension, we did this, or we did that,' that is not where our money, Mr. Speaker, should be going. That is not 'l'lhere it should be going. It should be going into trying to make sure that the next generation of Newfoundlanders are capable of competing and coping in this world.

I will tell you, Mr. Speaker, that they certainly are not. Even the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter), who is a businessman himself, knows. Every pronouncement of the government has been doom and gloom, the cutbacks with the Civil Service, the cutbacks at the hospitals. While we have in this government on the one hand gross waste and mismanagement, on the other hand they make it up by just slashing and cutting across the board and the doom and gloom forecasts which they are daily bringing to us. mhe other thing, Mr.

Speaker, that has kept people out, and you will hear it on the mainland all the time, there is an anti-business climate in Newfoundland . Why is there an anti-business climate in Newfoundland? It is not done ?~ the Opposition ... We have not been telling business 2945

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1115 NM - 1 MR. HODDER: not to come into Newfoundland, but they feel that there is an anti-business climate in this Province. And, Mr. Speaker, we find companies who might stay here, running off. Like a friend of mine who tests drilling mud, a former student of mine, who went to petroleum school in Alberta~ he came back, for a while his head office was here, just three or four people who were checking ~ome sort of business that they did out on the oil rigs, but they were with a firm here in St. John's.

I used to see him quite often, he would drop up here once in a while and have a look in at the House, a former student, I am very proud of him, and suddenly I got a call the other day, "I am not going to be here any more, all moved to Halifax." There were only three or four r perhaps with a secretary, perhaps with two secretaries, but they have gone to Halifax. MR. DINN: A mudl engineer? MR.

HODDER: I did not say he was an engineer, I said he had gone to college and he was working with a company, I do not know the name of the company 1 but I know that they have transferred him, and now he works out of Halifax to go to the rigs rather than working out of St. John's. MR. DINN: That is what he is, a mud engineer. He tests mud. MR. NEARY: Mud, yes mud. MR. HODDER: As far as I know that is the sort of thing that he was doing out there. But now that little office is gone. And how many more little offices are gone? MR. NEARY: Hundreds of them. 2946

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1115 NM - 2 MR. HODDER: Hundreds and hundreds --and hundreds. We do not even hear about them. And perhaps, Mr. Speaker, the worst thing that this government could ~o, I believe 1 and every day we see more and more of it, there was a time when a community went flat, when an industry left a community, that the government of the day, regardless of which day, if we have to go back fifty, sixty or seventy years, or even back twenty years, the government of the day would move in and they would do everything in their power. We see now a hands- off approach to the economy.

This government has been accused so often of having a hands-off approach to ,the economy that now they make little gestures when something happens. You know,there are people.in this Province who tell me that they did not realize that there were so many industries. failing, because they did not see the list of bankruptcies and people moving out, and businesses closing downbecause that happens nightly. Mr. Speaker, there was a time when the population of Newfoundland was growing, people were coming back.

Now there is that outward migration again, so that the finest and the best and the brightest of·our Newfoundlanders, the most ambitious of them, of our young people - MR. DI!l'N: That is not true. MR. NEARY: It is true. MR. DINN: There are more moving in. MR. HODDER: - many of them are leaving~ Those who are here, some will stay. You will always have some that will stay and some that will go, but we are losing many of them. In my district, in the district 2947

April 30, 1984 Tape No . 1115 NM - 3 MR. HODDER : of Port au Port where we have 75 per cent unemployment, what is happening to the young people there ? I know the statistics , Up to ~ age eighteen years is a very high birth rate; Jrorn ages zero to eighteen I think is about 5 per cent above the provincial average. And then suddenly from ages twenty to thirty -five it drops about 10 per cent below the provincial average . What has happened to all these people? It is very simple r it is a high unemployment area but they can find no work there and they are leaving and their skills and talents are being contributed to other parts of Canada and to other parts of the world. 2948

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1116 SD -1 MR. HODDER: So there we are, Mr. Speaker, that is what is happening to us,and we have a government that sits back and waits for the oil to come in. I say again, what would happen if 'l'le never did find the oil? What \•Tould you be doing then? Of course, I know what would have happened. If there had never been an oil strike , this government would not be here, there would be a new bunch of Newfoundlanders over there. Certainly some of us on this side would be over there, perhaps all of us.

That is all that this government is '-'Taiting for, it is all you are waiting for, waiting for the oil to come ashore and then you are going to try to fix all the ills. Well,if you fix all the ills when the oil comes ashore the same way to tried to run the economy before it came ashore , then God help us. MR. NEARY: Do you know what they are planning on doing? They are planning on another snap election. MR. HODDER: Oh, yes, that is the game plan. You know, this is the strangest government that has ever governed this Province. Not only that, they are throw­ backs from Confederation.

I mean, you know, the ~inisters are smart enough, the ministers like the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simmsl he is smart enough to be able never to tell you anything. I do not thin..lc he is a separatist,and he will not say it. MR. NEARY: He knows when he is well off. MR. HODDER: But the backbenchers, when you talk to the backbenchers like the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) and the member for Burin -Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) ~ 'MR •. NEARY: Rejects. MR·. HODDER: -you know, you can talk to these members behind the curtain and, you know, they let the cat out of the bag.

They are actual separatists. SOME H.ON . MEMBERS: No • 2949

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1116 SD - 2 MR. HODDER: Yes, they_are actual separatists. I have talked to many, many of the backben·chers, met them here and there, and this comes out, the separatism. Of course, not so very long ago the Premier- we know what a trial balloon is!- on the eve of the referendum when Canada won, when Quebec >'l'anted to Set)arate, the nremier w·as '·?anderinq around Ottawa floatinq his trial balloon and saying - MR. NEARY: He liked Rene ·Levesque's Canada. MR. HODDER: Yes, he liked ~ene Levesque's Canada, Rene Levesque's view of Canada was his rather than Trudeau's. MR. NEARY: That is right.

MR. HODDER: Then there was an interview in The Toronto Sun or in one of the Toronto 9apers where the Premier floatingthe trial balloon again. At that time .the Premier was the darling of the media, he was seen as beina invincible and everythina else; hut that was the first tarnisl1.,; w~1.en he floated that trail balloon. He actually thought,his ego was so great, he floate~ this trial balloon, and all of us ' 1'i'ho are noli ticians - ~ - - heard it across the Provine~ .that was the first time his image was ever tarnished.~l7hen he floated ' it.

Now I often wonder if there had not been such a revulsion by Newfoundlanders about that trial balloon? I ·think there were three or four times actually·~..rhen he did it, '1-Jut he suddenly realized --- -- -- - -- --. .. that this ,,.,as a no-no. But then he picked up the ball again because he realized he had the offshore oil issue, that it was an issue that had been played around with for a long time, and he promised the people of the Province he wanted a strong hand in negotiating and the people of the Provine~ rightfully so,gave him the strong hand. MR. NEARY: And then he threw it away. MR.

HODDER: Then he threw it away. He 2950

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1116 SD .. 3 MR. HODDER: threw it away. He put us in such a position that we will never, never, never again be able to control it when he put it in the Supreme Court of Canada. He can talk all he wants to 2951

April 30,1984 Tape No. 1117 ah-1 MR.HODDER: about the Seafarers' International case. The Seafarers' International case could have been decided and nothing would have happened. And the parrots over there talk about the Seafarers' International case as being the first blow, and that had nothing to do with it whatsoever. He made the gigantic blunder. He thought that because during the constitutional debates that the Supreme Court of Newfoundland had ruled in favour of Newfoundland, he thought that they would do it again.

He forgot that the judges obey the law and even for someone who has done as little law as I did it was quite evident that every country on the face of this earth - I do not understand Newfoundlanders even. I listened to Open Line and he said what a terrible blo~ we have been dealt by Ottawa. Well, there was already a case, the BC offshore resources case, there was already a case that said that the minerals off the shore of Canada belong to us. We follow British common law.

If you live in Britain the Central government owns the offshore oil, if you live in Australia the Central government owns their offshore oil or minerals offshore, if you live in the United States the Central government owns the minerals offshore. MR.TOBIN: What about Alberta and Saskatchewan? MR.HODDER: Alberta does not have minerals offshore, Mr. Speaker. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, if my colleague would allow me a second? MR. HODDER: Sure. MR.NEARY: I do not see a quorum in the House, Mr. Speaker. My hon. colleague is making 2952

April 30,1980 Tape No. 1117 ah-2 MR.NEARY: such a wonderful speech I would like to have an audience. QUORUM MR.SPEAKER (McNicholas): members. A quorum is present. au Port. MR.HODDER: where - MR.CARTER: MR.SPEAKER: member for St. John's North. Order, please! Call in the The han. member for Port I did wonder, Mr. Speaker, A point of order, Mr.Speaker. A point of order,the han. MR.CARTER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is quite true that the Leader of the Opposition does not count and presumably from that he cannot count. At the time that he · called a quorum in this House there was a quorum.

There are so many of us on this side that th~~ be very large gaps in the seating and still be a quorum here. And at the time that he called a quorum there was a quorum and I th1nk the han. member has forfeited his right to speak. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker • MR.SPEAKER: To that point of order 1 the han. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, Your Honour is well aware of course that what the han. gentleman is doing is challenging Your Honour's ruling. He is accusing Your Honour of having made a mistake. Now I believe the han. gentleman should have gotten scalded enough in the last two weeks in this han.

House with his 2953

April 30,1984 Tape No. 1117 ah -3 MR .NEARY: sarcastic ,sardonic remarks and with his stupidy. The hon. gentleman has had to withdraw more o£ten than the hon. member for Burin -Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) 1and that is saying something, and apologize to the House. 2954

April 30, 1984 Tco.pe No. 1.118 MJ- 1 MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, we have had enough rudeness, we have had enough of lowering of the decorum of this han. House by the han. gentleman, we have had enough insults and sarcasm and ice cubes being flicked across the House by han. gentlemen there opposite. Nawthey are going to challenge the Chair and accuse Your Honour of making a mistake, Mr. Speake~, I would submit that there is no ~oint of order, that the han. gentleman is just being mischievous, as he ususally i"s in this han.

House 1and I would subrilit that my han. colleague be allowed to carry on uninterrupted, in silence. MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Mc Nicholas) : Further to that point of order, the hon. the member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: It is true that I am accusing the Speaker of something: What I am accusing the Speaker of is excessive courtesy. When the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) suggested that there was not a quorum in this House, the han. Mr. Speaker was so courteous enough to listen to him,and unfortunately I must point out that that is a:·dange:J;" •. MR. NEARY: Name him, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAI<ER: To that point of order 1 I must admit I did not count the members myself 1I did take the wora of the Leader of the Opposition, au Port has the floor. MR. HODDER: There is a quorum present now. The hon. the member for Port Mr. Speaker, in actual fact what happened was that the members opposite came scurrying in through the door 1and you can rest assured, Mr. Speaker, that the count over here was correct. Mr. Speaker, it occurred to me wni~e I was sitting there, I just wonder where all the ministers are. I think we will probably find out perhaps in two or three 2955

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1118 MJ - 2 MR. HODDER: days when they all return from the sunny South, their suntans will give them away. MR. NEARY: Reshuffled. MR. HODDER: Oh 1yes• T-.,_ere is a rumour that the government might be reshuffled and perhaps they are all upset. Maybe they just do not have face enough ·to come into the House .. but, Mr. Speaker, the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) has no worries, he will not get in the Cabinet, there i~ nn doubt about that. But the member for St. Mary' s - The Capes (Mr. Hearn) I \\Ould say has a very, very good chance to get in the Cabinet. MR.

NEARY: Suntan and all. MR. HODDER: But the rumour is the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young) is gone, he is finished. There is so much jealousy over there and so many people trying to get ahead! The member for Concention Bay South (Mr. Butt) has been panting and c~ing at the bit, he wants to get in. The member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) has given up, he does not want to be in the Cabinet anymore. He is just hoping that before the election they appoint him for a couole of days and that he will go back out again. MR. TOBIN: Is he a separatist? MR.

HODDER: Yes,· the member for Stephenville i!> a separatist, there is no douht: about that .. MR. YOONG: Hew many of us are going to be defeatea next tirre? 'lhat will be a start. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, there will not be enough over there to make it up, we will have to appoint an Opposition. MR. TOBIN: I thought ~au were going to work for Turner? MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the member for Burin Placentia West contributes nothing to the debate, he is not 2956

April 30 , 1984 Tape No. 1118 ~.J - 3 MR. HODDER : humorous. MR. SIMMS: He dirl a aood job organizing the Memorial University young Liberals. MR. HODDER : Mr. ~peaker , to get back to more serious matters, the bon . memb ers opposite can laugh and joke all they want , but what hon . members opposite should realize is that I have unlimited time and that I can speak for perhaps five days, six day s or seven days. I can stand here and I can repeat myself. Now I have some things that I want to s~ . In the next three or four days perhaps I will get them out at my own pace . I \<fas proceedinc;r very quickly . 2957

April 30, 1984 Tape 1119 EC - 1 I~R. DINN: I have ~ot all these notes. MR. HODDER: I am sorry that the I1inister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is in the 8unny Sout:-t. SO!"R HON. ~~PI~BP.T:'.S: I-Ie is not. r.L"R.. HODDER: He has not been in the House. I notice that his selected documents fro:.:l 19~9 have been removed from his desk. I would say that he is basking in the sun somewhere in the South, smm EON . HE!ffi:C:r.lS : no. MR. HODDER: If he is not in the South, he is on one of the Caribbean Islands then. !lR. NEARY: No, he is in Europe. MR. HODDER: Oh, he is in Europe. I see. ~1R.

NEARY: He is over CJettinc; our Eurodollars. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, before I go on, I want to re-emphasize for members opposite - because I think I have said something that has not been said before in this House -that you cannot develop small business unless you make the effort to do it,and that small business is not created by putting money in the hands of the friends of the members opposite. That is what has been happening. MR. NEARY: Pork barrelling. MR. HODDER: We on this side of the House have asked for the rural development list.

We see when any other government in Canada gives a grant it is public knowledge, it i~ advertised, it is made public in the newspapers. They are proud of it: 'The Government of Canada has awarded this number of projects, DRIE or DREE when they were here', you know, they announce the projects. But up to this time, we have never been able to find out. Rural Development grants and loans could have been useful. ~'!hen we talk about the types of things that they are doing i~ other parts of the world, where they are trying to"develop- 2958

April 30, 1984 Tape 1119 EC - 2 MR. YOUNG: ':'he minister gives the breakdown. MR. HODDER: Oh, yes, the minister some~ times gives us categories but we have never received the lists of Rural Development loans and grants. We never see them, they are kept secret. 1:1R. iJINN: You v1ant the names. MR. HODDER: Well, sure. Why should we not get the names? But, you know, '·!hether I brought this up, , this is not a matter that I want to talk about. I mean, everybody in the Province knows that whatever the government tries to do in job creation and whatever aid they give to small business, it is done in secret.

And we know why it is done in secret because they will not give out the names. In my own area of the Province, I kno~ who gets them, the word gets around; I do not know about other areas in the Province. I know whose friends they are. I know why they get them. !1R. SI£1MS: You are out of touch, boy. MR. HODDER: I gave one example today of where a great friend of the Tory Party was given enough money to bankrupt himself and then bankrupt the fishermen with him. MR. TOBIN: Who was that? MR. HODDER: If the member had been in his seat, he would have heard. But what I am saying, Mr.

Speaker, is that that is not the way we are going to stimulate small business in this Province, and we are behind, in the main­ stream we are falling behind. We are like a backwater of civilization in this Province. Have you ever stopped to think about that? Has the member for Burin - Placentia 2959

April 30, 1984 Tape 1119 EC - 3 MR. HODDER: West (Mr. Tobin) ever stopped to think how far we are falling behind in th~ development of new technology? Do you see many microchip companies here? You see them in Nova Scotia. Do you see any microchip companies being established here? Is there any encourage­ ment to get any type of small micro industry into this Province? And what I have been talking about since I started, Mr. Speaker, is not the bad part of the hudget, not the bad pa:::!_! We can get around to criticize, but I am talking about what was good in the budget!

The 2 per cent which was flung at small business, yes, they can use it, no doubt, but that is for existing small business. ~·lhere in the budget is there anything that will help develop new business in this Province? MR. SIMMS: What about removing the 12 per cent sales tax on manufacturing? MR. HODDER: The 12 per cent sales tax on manufacturing items: there is not enough manufacturing going on in the Province; I doubt when we see the figures I·l~'<. DINN: vn1at about Bowater? MR. SIMMS: You are against that too? MR.

HODDER: Well, I should tell the hon. member that whenever Bowaters or Abitibi-Price came to the government, at least in the old days, and they were bringing in new equipment, the government gave them a sales tax grant anyhow, and in many cases that was done by decision in Cabinet. so,actually, it meant very little. Now, there are a couple of manufacturing firms in the Province that it will help, but it will not help very much, because it is helping. existing business.

But the minister must realize that it is the people, it is the development of the entrepreneurial spirit that will bring prosperity to this Province and create new business. 2960

April 30, 1984 Tape 1119 EC -4 MR. HODDER! This government is doing nothing to develop t.hat. The co.urses in our vocational schools, the courses in our day schools, the courses in the Colleqe of Trades and Technology are poor. Perhaps the only place? t-ihere there are advanced courses going on are in our university and our Fisheries College \·Tith the development, thanks to the federal government 2961

April 30, 1984 Tape 1120 PK - 1 MR. HODDER: of the new facility, the new Fishery College. I mean the Fishery College,before the federal government decided that they would build a new Fishery College,they were down using equipment that had tubes in it,and tubes have gone out for the past ten years. As I said 1 the courses that we have been teaching were developed in the 1960s, they were good for the 1960s, but they are no longer good for today. -.viR. DINN: still has tubes . MR.

HODDER: Plenty of electronic equipment Oh, I am sure there is electronic equipment with tubes but not of tre type they had at the Fisherie~ College. And with the new Fisheries College and new equipment in that college it is possible that we may be moving ahead a small bit. But for the average person who comes out of the schools , the hundreds of thousands of children who will be coming out of Grade XII or coming out of the senior level of high school in the next five or six years,they have very few places to turn.

And the entrance requirements in the College of Trades and Technology and in the University and here and, !there are such that very few of them will be able to get a chance to be able to get into the main stream, and that is no good. One time if you had Grade XI in this Province you could always be sure of a job. When the members opposite graduated from university , those who went to university,they were sure of a job. When I came out of the university there was no thought in my mind that I would never be able to get a job. But that has changed. The world has gone past us faster than ever before.

There was a period from 1949 to 1965-1966 when we were keeping up, when we were progressing by leaps and bounds and trying to catch up with the rest of Canada, but now we are 2962

April 30, 1984 Tape 1120 PK - 2 MR. HODDER: falling behind. And it is my contention, Mr. Speaker, that we are ten years behind. MR. PATTERSON: That was done under the Liberals. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speake~, under the Liberals we were advancing. Mr. Speaker, we went into Confederation with a Province that was rampant with disease, with poor roads, . with little transportation. There were leaps and bounds and things were being done. ·I will get to that later, Mr. Speaker, that is for another part at a later date. The next thing I want to talk about to han. members 1 and I wish the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) were here, is the budget process itself in this Province, the way that the budget is crafted, the way that the budget is presented to this Province. Now I believe that there should be budget secrecy, 'obviously any person who does not believe in the secrecy of budget just does not know what he is talking about because what the budget says can make a person a millionaire overnight~ if you knew three days before what the budget was going to tell you then of course you could make yourself a pile of money.

So budget secrecy is a principle of democratic governments around the world, it is the same in Britain as it is in the United States or in Canada or in Australia or in any of .the Commonwealth countries. MR. PATTERSON: John Doyle used to write them for Joey. MR. HODDER: Well,perhaps Craig Dobbin writes them for this government, I do not know. If you want · to throw stuff around like that 1I mean, go ahead. MR. PATTERSON : · I am sorry. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I am trying to make a valid point here and I was making a point that budget secrecy is important. But there should be a procedure to make the 2963

April 30, 1984 Tape 1120 PK - 3 MR. HODDER: budget more acceptable and relevant to Newfoundlanders . There should be a political consensus about the budget, there should be a chance for input into the budget before the budget is presented. And we know that every year responsible groups in this Province 1like the Federation of Municipalities, the Federation of Labour, the St . John 's Board of Trade, and various others present to government before budget time their feelings as to what should be in the budget. But it is a one-way stream, it is a brief that we all receive and very often it is very good.

There are things in the Board of Trade brief this year that I agreed with and there were things that I did not agree with, but I would agree as a business community that 2964

April 30, 1984, Tape 1121, Page 1 --apb MR. HODDER: that was the type of thing they would like to see. I do not know if the government reads this or·nat, but it is one way. And when you read the .Feder2.tion,of Labour brief you see that many of the concerns of the :"'er1eri'\tion of Labour are expressed to government in the bu-dgetary process. Municipalities have their own axes to grind as do every other group. Mr. Speaker, I think that in this Legislatur·e there should be a process of consultation. This is not a large Province in terms of population, it is not a large Province in terms of interest groups.

It is not like the whole of Canada even though, I must say, that the latest Minister of Finance in Canada (Mr. Lalonde) did make some attempts to try to get a concensus before the last budget came down. And I believe the last budget was a good one even though it was criticized by members there opposite. Generally, across the country it was well received. I think our budgetary process in this Province should be changed, and I think we should have a ~hance, before the budget comes down, to debate the budget - --·-ft.!f. !?O~'l'P.R: Debate it before it comes down? How are you going to do that? MR. HODDER: Yes.

If the han. member would listen he would hear what I am saying. I said th~t there are groups in this Province who now already make available to government and to Cabinet, of which the han. gentleman is a member, their interests and concerns. I believe that we should encourage that from all groups. For instance, the consumer groups should have an input into the Provincial government. I believe that there should be two-way communication. Before a budget comes down there should be two-way communication between the interest groups 2965

April 30, 1984, Tape 1121, Page 2 -- apb MR. HODDER: in this Province and the goverrunent. And I. think there .shou,1-d be a period in this House of Assembly before the budget comes down when we can talk about ai~s and as~irations.

If hon. gentlemen would let me make a suggestion, and it has been made before, it is not a new one, a committee could travel this Province and could talk to consumer groups, could talk to the Board of Trade, could talk to the various Chambers of Commerce, could talk to the various communities and community councillors and the Rural Development Associations and the Rural Development Authorities, and there could be some predebate in this House as to where the budget should go.

I know that there will always be budget security, and there will always be budget secrecy, but there should be a debate amongst the conflicting interests in this Province before a budget comes down. Now, does that make sense to the hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands(Mr. Power) over there? He is not listening. I prefer he would not make any comments if he is not listening to what is being said. Mr. Speaker, briefs from the outside should be distributed before the budget. There should be consultation back and fortq. There should be public hearings within the Province.

We get the government's forecast for the next year when we get the budget and the basis of some of those debates should be the government's forecast of the economy. Because the government is very wrong sometimes and that is normal. HP.:. Y'OU11G: Never wrong. Never wrong. MR. HODDER: Oh, the government is never wrong. And .the Opposition is right sometimes. And some- times the people are right. 2966

April 30, 1984, Tape 1121, Page 3 --apb ~L~. SI!11ffi : The federal government is wrong sometimes~ MR. HODDER: I would like to have the ability in this House of Assembly to look at it. r!hy is it that when we get the budget we also get the projections of government o.n the economy? The Outlook for the Economy, that should be the central document. And if hon. members were to go through that type of exercise it might keep the House open a little longer,but I think. it would be a very, very useful debate, with that as the working paper for the debate, the document, the government's forecast of the economy.

I am not saying that people would have total input. I have been in this House much longer than the hon .• member and I know that there are times when the Opposition bas an issue on Nhich the f!OVerni"''.ent 2967

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1122 SD - 1 MR. HODDER: is wrong, and I have seen the government shift itself on a number of occasions because of debate in this House of Assembly, but not so much in these last two years. I saw the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) reverse herself twice. I have seen the government reverse itself.

This House of Assembly is here for a purpose and it is a sounding board and there are moves made sometimes by the government which, when they are brought to the light of day, han. members opposite, and I am talking about democracy and that is what it is all about, han. members realize that they may have made a mistake and they shift or slide sideways or backwards or whatever on particular issues. And han. members over there know that as well.

The budget is the most important document which the government brings down, it is the document which affects more of the lives of the.people of Newfoundland and Labrador, and it should be a topic of discuss~on before it comes down.

And if han. members do not like staying in the House of Assembly, there is always another month, we can always sit for another month thr.oughout the year and we can talk about it and we could have, you know, a debate because there are people throughout the Province, there are conflicting interests all over this Province, and the government may sometimes fall into a trap as they very often do.

One of th .e things that I have noticed about this particular government is that most of the taxation that this government has brought in under the Peckford administration has been regressive taxation and the time must come to stop it. And the type of regressive taxation is not really taxation, it is fees, but it is a taxation. And the ordinary wage earner in this Province, the low and middle income wage earner, is being hurt by each successive increase MR. SIMMS: All progressive taxation. MR. HODDER: In the minister's department he puts up the moose licence. Who does he hurt? Does that hurt 2968

April 30, 1984 MR. HODDER: Street? MR. SIMMS: Tape No. 1122 SD - 2 the millionaire down on Water We did not put up moose licences. MR. HODDER: The moose licence has gone up. You do not even get your initial fee back now. There is a certain amount that the minister grabs up when you - l1R. SIMMS: There has not been an increase in moose licence fees for years. MR. HODDER: What about the extra five dollars that the person does not get back? You know, it is still something that hurts the low and middle income taxpayers more than anybody else.

You know, we saw in last year's budget the thing on pick-up trucks went up, We had a petition here when the pick-up truck fee went up and the rates and one thing and another, we had a petition in here which came from Central Newfoundland and I think there was something like 9,000 names on it. People were very upset. MR. SIMMS: The member refers to regressive taxation. What are the examples of progressive taxation? MR. HODDER: Progressive taxation is a taxation which affects low income earners and high income earners as well. MR. SIMMS: taxation? MR.

HODDER: Would income tax be progressive I would consider a raise in income tax to be more fair than to year after year after year be raising fees and services; even marriage licences, everything, every little thing that can possibly go up, Crown land fees. I have a list of them here which I will get to in a little while. But all these little fees t?at are increasing daily, the y put a little licence on a snowmobile, well, what does that do?

You have to pay $5 to have a licence on a snowmobile and it has not done one bit of good in keeping track of snowmobiles, where they should be or anything else in this Province and probably costs as much to administer. The rabbit 2969

April 30, 1984 Tap e No . 1122 so - 3 MR . HODDER: lic e nce goes up, the bird licence goes up, this goes up and that goes up, and every kind of a litt l e fee that the government can - MR. SIMMS: When did this happen? MR. HODDER: I am talking about ove r the last three or four years . The rabbit lice.nce did not go up a couple of years ago? MR. SIMMS: Of course not ! MR. HODDER: Not in the last twent y y ears . But this is the way that the government operates. You say in the budget we will save $100,000 on this and $50., 000 on this and $6.0, 000 on that, you know, the minister knows what I am talking about.

It is no good for the minister to try to tell me that that is the way that they recoup their mone,y. But there comes a time, and I realize it, I understand , that you have to charge certain amounts for certain services for ,.,.hich you give peop l e, but if you 29 70

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1123 NM- 1 MR. HODDER: continue to use that type of indirect taxation, that is hurting year by year and more and more a certain segment of society. And there comes a time when you have to stop because it hurts the person who is on social assistance,much of that, who needs a marriage certificate, or the ambulance fees which went up this time, the air ambulance fee and the road ambulance fee. That ~urts the people who are in the more remote areas who do have transportation, I mean usually air ambulances . are not used in St.

John's, but in areas down in my friend's district, down in Burin-Placentia West, in isolated communities along the South Coast where they have no doctors, where they have very often, when there is an emergency,_ to fly~ When you put up that type of taxation that is regressive, it i~ hurting the people who have the least medical services, and yet they are penalized the most. And that is the type of thing that I am talking about that this government has · been goinq on with forever and ever and ever, and has been going on with for the last four years. You know, certain fees.

There is a statement in this budget, it says, "Certain fees for services will be brought up to cost," etc., etc., etc, and Mr. Speaker, very often it hurts most. I want to talk about something else that this government has done this time. I would like for hon. members to listen to this. MR. PATTERSON: Yes, boy. I am listening. 2971

,J April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1123 NM - 2 MR. HODDER: No, because I believe that the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) will understand what I am saying. I believe he will agree with me. I believe that the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) will agree with what I am going to say now, and the Minister of Forest Reources and Lands (Mr. Power). I do not see how they cannot. And it is something that a lot of people have not thought about yet, and it has not been brought up in this House of Assembly yet.

Do you know when the wage freeze came on the public servants in this Province for two years, there is a wage freeze for two years - I had hoped that the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) would be here today , - do you realize that in the next two years many public servants in this Province will be retiring, will be leaving the public service and retiring? And the top three years in which they ~V"ere workinq-, their pension will be based on ·those top three ~·ears.

Now that particular wage freeze will not affect those that will be retiring in five years time 1but those that will retire in two years time it will affec .t them for the rest of their lives. I believe that this government should take that particular item into account because I think that a special case should be made for those retiring public servants who have served this Province and who have served ministers, and who have served the people of this Province, who are retiring in the next two years, whose incomes for the rest of their lives - until they die - their pensions will be affected 2972

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1123 NM - 3 MR. HODDER: -- because of. this wage freeze. And I believe the government should do something about that. I think the government should make some compensation. I do not think that the government should have slashed across the board, that is another point. But when they slashed across the board for public servants in this Province,they did not take into account that some people will be affected for the rest of their lives. And you know the public service pension 4oes not go up by very ~uch.

Every:,year we see a bill go by us here in tlle House of Assembly which says we will raise public servants!;pensions by one or two per cent, something like that. They never go up according to the c.ost of living. How many people will be retiring from the public service in the next two Years? Perha~s 500 or 400 people will be retiring from the civil service, who spent their lives in the service of this Province 2973

April 30, 1984 Tape No. 1124 MJ - 1 MR. HODDER: and they will be penalized for the rest of their lives. If han. members find that to be fair and just and acceptable, then I would say to han. members that they should stop and reconsider and I will continue to bring this up. I know a"lot of public servants,some of whom are retiring this year, are finding that for the rest of their lives, because of their top three years, they will not have that advantage that others will have that come after thern 1 because they were unfortunate enough, Mr. Speaker, to be there while the wage freeze was on.

The member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) is listening and the me~ner for Pleasantville (Mr. Dinn) and I would suggest that they bring it up to their colleagues in Cabinet. MR. SIMMS: How many would you say will be retiring? I mean,what would you say is the number? MR. HODDER: Well ,in the next two or. three yea~s, 300 or 400 possibiliy c6ul3 retire from the public service. MR. SIMMS: In the next three years? MR. HODDER: In the next three years, yes. I-asked the member but there are quite a few. What if there is only one? Is it fair because of this wage restraint that he suffer the rest of life?

The"i!linister knows there will be more than one. MR. SIMMS: MR. DI~£-T: MR. !fODDER: The pension is funded now. There are pension increases every ~rear. Yes, he ~ill get pension increases every yea~ but still they take their top three years as the !;lase, so there we go. Mr. Speaker, so I believe that the budget process should be changed and I believe that where .. ·· should be - it might mean changes in the procedures of this 2974

April 30, l984 Tape No. 1174 MJ - 2 MR. HODDER: House - but there should be debate on the budget, on the contents of the budget not only in the public, Mr. Speaker, but in this House before the budget comes down. Because it is my feeling that the last two budgets that have been brought down by this government have not taken into full account all of the groups in this Province and 1 while some groups have been helped, some communities have been helped, they have not taken everything into account. Now, Mr. Speaker, one other tnihg is what happens after the budget comes down.

Once the budget has come down in this Province and the monies ·are allocated, I believe that the list, the priorities "(qhich are given to roads in municipalities should be priorized. The Sullivan Commission Report on Transporation in Newfoundland, there were things in that particular report which I did not like, there were things in the report which I did like,but there are many things in that +eport which were very revealing; it was a very,.very good report. There were things there that the government liked and I did not like. But one thing that they did point out that there were priorities in this Province.

They had travelled the Province and 1as far as transporation,particuiarly in roads in this Province, there were primrities. Mr. Speaker, when the road work starts to be done in the Spring 1we see that the priorities that were laid down - and some of them were laid down in the Sullivan Tran$portation Report - that the priorities are not met. The monies are spent depending on which government member needs it worse, whether it was promised in the last election. MR. DINN: No,it is not. MR. HODDE'R: Yes,it is, Mr. Speaker. I have travelled just about every single road in this Province. 2975

~ April 30, 1984 Tape No . 1124 MJ - 3 MR . DINN: You may have travell~d the road, that may be true, but it is on a priority basis that they are done . MR. HODDER: Oh, on a priority basis they are done? The bon . member should come over to Port au Port. MR. SIMMS: He should go over to see the French festival. MR. HODDER : Yes, if the hon . member would come over to the French festival I will take him and show him some roads. They are the roads which I say now should be taken off the map . I think I should ·. 2976

April 30,1984 Tape No. 1125 ah-1 MR.HODDER: write Esso and Irving and all these -people who -publish maps and sa~ 1there are some roads in the district of Port au Port at the present time which no longer should be called secondary roads. They now should be called cow paths or trails. You put a dotted line there now.' HR.DAWE: $15 million this year. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR.HODDER: That is what we are getting for Oh, oh! The member for the past years has been tormenting and cajoling and begging the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) to try and get something done.

But the member realizes that some of the han. members opposite are doing the same thing and it is not done on a priority basis. And you know the unfairness of this process will bring this government down. Do you know that you can only get away with things like that for so long? If you are going to pork barrel your own ridings, the Minister of Forestry (Mr. Power) and the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and the Minister - MR.DAWE: You will just have to represent your district better. MR.HODDER: That has nothing to do with :representing districts. Nobody represents their district more than I do.

I work at it twenty-four hours a day. It has nothing to do with representing districts. That is an old red herring that you guys like to throw over this way. What it really means is that the pork barrelling is done . But 1you know 1Newfoundlanders are basically fair people and that is going to be an issue in the next election campaign. And eventually 2977

April 30,1984 Tape No. 1125 ah-2 MR.HODDER: Newfoundlanders will rise up and decide that- well 1 they already have, they are on the way. MR.POWER: Your district rejected the government,did not want our programme. MR. HODDER: My district rejected the government. I see. So if a district happens to vote for a member and he does not happen to be a Conservativej then my district has rejected government programmes. But I would warn members opposite that while they sit there pretty now with forty-four of them over there 1 they can be wiped out pretty quick. Remember what happened to .Mr. Levesque in Quebec.

They formed the official opposition of seven and Mr. Bourassa had the largest government ever seen.And what happened in the next election, Mr. Speaker? Not one of them were left and Mr. Levesque was in power. And the same thing happened here in 1966 with a large majority- there were only three in opposition, I believe, in this House­ and the results were opposite.

So do not sit there and feel secure that you can coast along on the Premier's coattails forever because the .people of this Province now realize that the Premier is not the man they thought when they gave him that mandate to go and negotiate the offshore oil. So do not think you can sit over there If people start to realize that you are not being fair · ~you know,if you run a fair and honest government you can be in forever, but that is not what is happening~ You are not running a fair and honest government. You are running a government which puts its own priorities first.

The Premier's game plan is now very clear. He went on the offshore issue 2978

April 30,1984 Tape No . 1125 ah -3 MR.HODDER: the last time and asked for a mandate,and now his game plan is to wait until there is a change of administration in Ottawa.And that is a very risky game for the people of this Province 1 I might add, a very risky game. And then he hopes that he will sign an agreement.

It does not matter what the agreement is because,as I said earlier,if you have your bottom line and you know what you want 1 and obviously a government that has spent so much money on legal fees and who have hassled over this particular problem and won an election on it for so long,must have a bottom iine, they must know what they want when they go in to negotiate, why did they stop negotiating? I will tell han. members opposite why, as they know: They stopped negotiating because they are sitting there waiting. HR. SIMMS : ,~ Chretien, your buddy, could not deliver. I forgot: He is not your buddy.

MR.HODDER: You are with Turner. Mr. Turner's policy, I might say, on _ the offshore was praised by the Premier, so perhaps the hon. member should keep quite. But, Mr. Speaker, it is a very, very dangerous game that hon. members are playing 2979

April 30, 1984, Tape 1126, Page 1 -- apb MR. HODDER: with the --people of the Province. And what do I get back from members opposite? No denial! Now, again I say if you have a bottom line why not talk forever? Why not keep talking? We do not need the Minister without Portfolio, the House Leader here in the House every day, the member for Grand Falls(Mr. Simms) can take his place easily enough. Why is he not up there negotiating all the time if he knows his bottom line? As long as we have stopped talking nothing can happen. So let us keep talking. But no, that is not the game plan.

That would be the sensible thing to do, that is what Newfoundlanders want to do , "but that is not the game plan. 'l'he game plan is the same as it was before, let us wait, maybe we will get a change of government. T?e thing ,about the change of government is that you have the same problem you had before. I have talked to people in Mr. Mulroney's office - .MR . SIMMS: MR. HODDER: Mr. Mulroney's office. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. HODDER: a very good friend in his office. What? I have talked to people in Hear, hear! As a matter of fact, I have MR. SIMMS: Name him and we will get rid of him. MR. HODDER: MR. SIMMS: MR.

HODDER: I certainly will not name him. Give us his name. I certainly will not name him, but I spent two weeks with him a couple of years ago, and I met him in Ottawa not more than a little while ago, and the attitude in Mr. Mulroney's office is no different than it was two years ago when Mr. Clark was there. And we have all heard what Mr. Mulroney has had to say. Do you think 2980 :

... ·----· -·-·--~~~-- April 30, 1984, Tape 1126, Page 2 --apb MR. HODDER: you are going to get anything from Mr. Mulroney with the pressures that the Canadian Confederation puts on a federal government? Do you think you are going to get anything from Mr. Mulroney with the pressures that the Canadian Confederation puts on a federal government? All Canadian governments have been centralist. All Canadian governments have been centralist and it may be that you have lost the best deal. Think of that.

But no, the plan is to wait.s And I make a prediction that one of two things will happen; if a Liberal government is in power the deal will be signed immediately~ if it is not, it will be signed and it will be rosy and the Premier will go to the people. That is what he is waiting for. But going to the people is the important thing. To preserve his government, to preserve his neck, that is the important thing. MR. SIMMS: to go to the people last week. MR. HODDER: Your colleague asked us Yes, we would like you to go to the people now. You know the old maxim, I should say to the member for Grand Falls(Mr.

Simms), you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time, Well~ this government has come to the end of its rope. MR. TOBIN: You sound awfully nervous. MR. SIMMS: Wise men speake because they have something to say, fools speake because they have to say something. MR. HODDER: I a~ not nervous, Mr. Speaker. I have been in this House in Opposition for ten years and I have never felt better about being in 'this House, because I know that in a very short time we will be over there. So, Mr. Speaker, there is nothing nervous about this gentleman. MR.

TOBIN: What about the job youasked Turner for? Tell us about that. 2981

April 30, 1984, Tape 1126, Page 3 -- apb MR. HODDER : Mr . Speaker, I will tell the hon. member that at least ! will not make the kind of a fool of myself on th e National Convention floor that the Premier made of himself when he rushed over to Joe Clark, on television, with his T-shirt on, he was not even able to negotiate in private, he did not have the couth to do it in private, and he was a disgrace and a shame to all Newfoundlanders . At least we will do it with good grace, and we will do it with honour . If hon. members want to look at the type of shenanigans that we .nt on in Quebec between Mr.

Mulroney and Mr . Clark, you do not see that sort of thing happening amongst the Liberals. MR . SIMMS : Oh,yes you do . MR. HODDER: It is a fa .r better party, Mr. Speaker, a far better Liberal Party . And, Mr. Speaker, once the shouting has died and the ballots are cast, then 2982

April 30, 1984 Tape 1127 PK -1 MR. HODDER: whoever wins the federal election1 there will be no bad feelings1like are presently existing on the PraUies between the Mulroney forces and the Clark forces. / There will be no bad feelings,we will go into an election and we will win it because the people will have realized, they would have compared the w-y that the Liberal Party can conduct their affairs internally and conduct their affairs properly. I mean,the disgrace of the Federal Tory Party, and now we have Mr. Crosbie up there destroying himself.

I had a person from the Canadian press, the Ottawa press the other day told rre, he said, he is not even funny any more. He is disgracing himself up there. He cannot put up with his defeat. He is bullying ahead. And, of course, he comes out and he says one thing and Mr. Mulroney says another thing. And when Mr. Mulroney turns his back and goes to Europe, he is like a bull in a china shop. By the time it is all over,he will be discredited and gone. That is what han. gentlemen were supporting, that is the type of person that the han. gentlemen were supporting, and the Premier up there running back and forth.

So do not talk about our leadership convention. We have already proved up to this point that we can do it better than the Federal Conservatives. We went through Quebec without a hitch, not a hitch. Gentlemen, gentlemen working against each other - MR. TOBIN: What was tha newscast today al:out the I.Ulderhanded deals of tw of his colleagues'? MR. HODDER: There is nothing as bad as the Tories. Mr. Speaker, han. members,you know,really like punishment. ~1R. POWER: 'I'hP. hnn. <J<>ntJe!'"""'-h_arl three meetings -two delegates in three me~tings, and registering people without their consent. 2983

April 30, 1984 Tape 1127 PK - 2 MR. HODDER : Mr. Speaker, I have not even started my notes yet. SOME HON MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Order, please! MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, han . members realize that those who follow me have a half an hour or an hour or whatever to speak 1 some of them, but Mr. Speaker, the longer that I am interrupted by members opposite the longer I am here, the longer they are here. So I have my things to say and I am going to say them whether it takes me two hours or three hours. I could have done it in two hours. I expected to speak for two hours - MR. NEARY: MR.

HODDER: or five days. MR. TOBIN: Stagg) 'I<Iill handle you. MR. HODDER: Take .four or five days now. - but I might be tempted to take four The member for Steohenville -(M:r. The hon. member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin), I cannot wait for the next election so I will never have to set my eyes on him again except,perhaps,downtown. He will be back as a social worker again. Mr. Speaker, t;he other thing which / I touched on earlier about this particular budget is the pessimism 2984

April 30, 1984 Tape 1128 EC - 1 MR. HODDER: in the budget. I sometimes w·onder ~·That the Premier's tactics .are. The Premier raade a.n announc<::..ment that i1e woulcl be goinCJ on province-wide television. Ancl earlier, I spoke about the mood of pessimism in the business community. I talked on many aspects of it. The mood of pessimism has been fostered by this government. Derfermance-t: I often wondered why it was that the Premier of the Province made that particular appeal on television, because basically, it again had th~ effect of dampening the spirits of Newfoundlanders.

Why is it when we are trying to develop our industries, develop our business, to have an optimistic business environment - the budget was bad enough, but why this gloom and doom? Why was it spread out? Why is it that the government has constantly and continually given the poor mo