British Columbia Hansard — Wednesday, April 18, 2007

H0418pm-03

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session, 38th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Wednesday, April 18, 2007 Afternoon Sitting Volume 18, Number 3 THE HONOURABLE BILL BARISOFF, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Iona V. Campagnolo, CM, OBC THIRD SESSION, 38TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations .......................................................................................................... Hon.

John van Dongen Deputy Premier and Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...................... Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ........................................................................................................ Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Advanced Education and Minister Responsible for Research and Technology ........................................... Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of Agriculture and Lands.......................................................................................................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism............................................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ................................................................................................................Hon.

Tom Christensen Minister of State for Childcare ........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Community Services and Minister Responsible for Seniors’ and Women’s Issues........................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Economic Development and Minister Responsible for the Asia-Pacific Initiative and the Olympics.................Hon.

Colin Hansen Minister of Employment and Income Assistance ...........................................................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources .......................................................................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining......................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Krueger Minister of Environment and Minister Responsible for Water Stewardship and Sustainable Communities ...............Hon. Barry Penner Minister of Finance.......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing ............................................................................. Hon.

Rich Coleman Minister of Health ......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. George Abbott Minister of Labour and Citizens’ Services ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General................................................................................................................................Hon.

John Les Minister of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Regulatory Reform............................................ Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of Tourism, Sport and the Arts ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of State for ActNow B.C. ............................................................................................................................................ Hon.

Gordon Hogg Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition .........................................................................................................................................................Carole James Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................Sindi Hawkins Assistant Deputy Speaker.....................................................................................................................................................................Sue Hammell Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole.................................................................................................................................................

Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .........................................................................................................................E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .......................................................................................................................................................Ian D.

Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ...................................................................................................................................................................Jo-Anne Kern Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Dan Arbic

Party Standings: Liberal 46; New Democratic 33 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) .................................................................... Shuswap Austin, Robin (NDP)............................................................................. Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP).................................................................. Surrey-Newton Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)..........................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon.

Pat (L) .............................................................Prince George North Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................ East Kootenay Black, Iain (L) ............................................................ Port Moody–Westwood Bloy, Harry (L)................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).....................................Prince George–Mount Robson Brar, Jagrup (NDP).....................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Campbell, Hon.

Gordon (L) .........................................Vancouver–Point Grey Cantelon, Ron (L)..............................................................Nanaimo-Parksville Chong, Hon. Ida (L) .................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...........................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ................................................. Okanagan-Vernon Chudnovsky, David (NDP) ......................................... Vancouver-Kensington Coell, Hon.

Murray (L) .....................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...........................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) .......................................... West Kootenay–Boundary Coons, Gary (NDP) ....................................................................... North Coast Cubberley, David (NDP)............................................................Saanich South de Jong, Hon.

Michael (L) ...................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Dix, Adrian (NDP) .........................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Evans, Corky (NDP).................................................................Nelson-Creston Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................

Surrey-Cloverdale Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...............................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Fleming, Rob (NDP) ..............................................................Victoria-Hillside Fraser, Scott (NDP) ..............................................................Alberni-Qualicum Gentner, Guy (NDP).......................................................................Delta North Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................ Comox Valley Hammell, Sue (NDP) ................................................... Surrey–Green Timbers Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) ..................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Hawes, Randy (L).......................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Sindi (L) ............................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................ Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon.

Gordon (L).....................................................Surrey–White Rock Horgan, John (NDP)......................................................Malahat–Juan de Fuca Horning, Al (L)........................................................... Kelowna–Lake Country Ilich, Hon. Olga (L)...............................................................Richmond Centre James, Carole (NDP).......................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Jarvis, Daniel (L)..................................................

North Vancouver–Seymour Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ........................................... Esquimalt-Metchosin Krog, Leonard (NDP)......................................................................... Nanaimo Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L) .....................................Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)........................... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lali, Harry (NDP)........................................................................

Yale-Lillooet Lee, Richard T. (L)....................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L).............................................................. Peace River South Les, Hon. John (L)............................................................... Chilliwack-Sumas Macdonald, Norm (NDP).................................... Columbia River–Revelstoke MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................

Bulkley Valley–Stikine Mayencourt, Lorne (L).......................................................Vancouver-Burrard McIntyre, Joan (L).................................................West Vancouver–Garibaldi Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) .................................................. Peace River North Nuraney, John (L).............................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Oppal, Hon. Wally, QC (L).......................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...........................................................

Chilliwack-Kent Polak, Mary (L) ....................................................................................Langley Puchmayr, Chuck (NDP)...................................................... New Westminster Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ............................................................. Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................ Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L).............................................................

Kamloops Robertson, Gregor (NDP) ................................................Vancouver-Fairview Roddick, Valerie (L).......................................................................Delta South Routley, Doug (NDP)..................................................... Cowichan-Ladysmith Rustad, John (L) ........................................................

Prince George–Omineca Sather, Michael (NDP).........................................Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Bob (NDP)..................................................................Cariboo North Simpson, Shane (NDP) ....................................................Vancouver-Hastings Sultan, Ralph (L) ....................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Taylor, Hon.

Carole (L).....................................................Vancouver-Langara Thorne, Diane (NDP) .................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L).......................................................Okanagan-Westside Trevena, Claire (NDP) ..................................................................North Island van Dongen, Hon. John (L)............................................ Abbotsford-Clayburn Whittred, Katherine (L)........................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wyse, Charlie (NDP) .................................................................Cariboo South Yap, John (L)...................................................................Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman .......................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum..........................................................................

Scott Fraser Bulkley Valley–Stikine ...........................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North ...........................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds........................................................................Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Willingdon................................................................... John Nuraney Burquitlam.......................................................................................Harry Bloy Cariboo North..............................................................................

Bob Simpson Cariboo South..............................................................................Charlie Wyse Chilliwack-Kent ..................................................................Hon. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas...................................................................... Hon. John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke................................................. Norm Macdonald Comox Valley........................................................................ Hon.

Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville..............................................................Diane Thorne Cowichan-Ladysmith ................................................................. Doug Routley Delta North ...................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ............................................................................. Valerie Roddick East Kootenay................................................................................

Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin.........................................................Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops.....................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ............................................Hon. Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country.................................................................. Al Horning Kelowna-Mission ......................................................................

Sindi Hawkins Langley ...........................................................................................Mary Polak Malahat–Juan de Fuca .................................................................. John Horgan Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................ Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ..................................................... Michael Sather Nanaimo......................................................................................

Leonard Krog Nanaimo-Parksville .....................................................................Ron Cantelon Nelson-Creston .............................................................................Corky Evans New Westminster .................................................................. Chuck Puchmayr North Coast....................................................................................

Gary Coons North Island ...............................................................................Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale................................................Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour..........................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head ........................................................... Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon......................................................... Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside..............................................................Hon.

Rick Thorpe Peace River North.......................................................... Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South..................................................................... Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley .................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ............................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Westwood.................................................................... Iain Black Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...............................................

Nicholas Simons Prince George North.................................................................... Hon. Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson ............................................Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................ John Rustad Richmond Centre......................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Richmond East........................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston...........................................................................John Yap Saanich North and the Islands ............................................ Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South ........................................................................ David Cubberley Shuswap............................................................................Hon. George Abbott Skeena.......................................................................................... Robin Austin Surrey-Cloverdale............................................................... Hon.

Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers ................................................................Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton............................................................................... Harry Bains Surrey–Panorama Ridge.................................................................Jagrup Brar Surrey-Tynehead ....................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley...........................................................................Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock ............................................................Hon.

Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard..............................................................Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview.............................................................Gregor Robertson Vancouver-Fraserview .................................................Hon.

Wally Oppal, QC Vancouver-Hastings .................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington.......................................................David Chudnovsky Vancouver-Kingsway ......................................................................Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara ........................................................... Hon. Carole Taylor Vancouver–Mount Pleasant........................................ Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................Hon.

Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena.........................................................Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill...................................................................

Carole James Victoria-Hillside ...........................................................................Rob Fleming West Kootenay–Boundary........................................................Katrine Conroy West Vancouver–Capilano...........................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ........................................................Joan McIntyre Yale-Lillooet..................................................................................... Harry Lali

CONTENTS Wednesday, April 18, 2007 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... .............................................. 6835 Introduction and First Reading of Bills........................................................................................ ......................................... 6835 Securities Amendment Act, 2007 (Bill 28) Hon. W. Oppal Business Practices and Consumer Protection (Payday Loans) Amendment Act, 2007 (Bill 27) Hon. J.

Les Minimum Wage Fairness Act, 2007 (Bill M214) C. James Water Resource Protection Act, 2007 (Bill M215) R. Austin Statements (Standing Order 25B) .............................................................................................................................. ............. 6837 Capital City Volunteers C. James Bowl for Kids Sake event in Langley M. Polak Economic diversification in Quesnel B. Simpson Bryce Schaufelberger R. Hawes Tangle/tooth nets and responsible fishing practices R. Austin Agritourism and work of Bill and Dagmar Norton J.

Rustad Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 6839 Government response to allegations regarding former Finance Deputy Minister H. Lali Hon. C. Taylor C. James M. Farnworth Vancouver Convention Centre expansion costs N. Macdonald Hon. S. Hagen H. Bains Compliance of Ken Dobell with Lobbyists Registration Act J. Kwan Hon. W. Oppal M. Karagianis L.

Krog Tabling Documents.............................................................................................................. .................................................... 6843 Response to a user information request relating to allegations made in the chamber L. Krog Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................... 6843 Estimates: Ministry of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing (continued) Hon. R. Coleman B. Simpson S. Fraser C. Trevena J. Horgan

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................... 6867 Estimates: Ministry of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy (continued) S. Simpson Hon. S. Bond B. Ralston J. Brar D. Cubberley Estimates: Ministry of Advanced Education and Minister Responsible for Research and Technology Hon. M. Coell R. Fleming

6835 WEDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2007 The House met at 1:32 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Prayers. Introductions by Members Hon. S. Hagen: I'm really pleased today that I have some friends down from the Comox Valley. The village of Cumberland is one of the communities in the Comox Valley. It has an incredibly great future. I'm really pleased — and I will be meeting with them later today — to have Mayor Fred Bates, Councillor Leslie Baird and their CAO, Anja Nurvo. Would you please join me in making them welcome. N. Macdonald: I t ' s m y p l e a s u r e t o i n t r o d u c e M r . Laurie Cottrell.

He's a former teacher at Esquimalt High. He is a veteran of World War II. He served with the Royal Canadian Navy. He's here wi th his son, a colleague of mine from Golden Secondary School, who has come from Golden, bringing with him 11 grade 11 students. I'd like you to join me in making them all feel welcome. R. Hawes: I have a few introductions today. In the gallery today is Mr. Ed Salle. He is the president of the B.C. Cattlemen's Association. With him is Mr. Bob France, the general manager of the B.C. Cattlemen's Association.

With them is a man of few words, but generally speaking fairly loud or well-heard words. That would be a former colleague, former MLA, former caucus chair, Dr. John Wilson, and his wife Laura Wilson. Could the House please make them all welcome. C. Trevena: This morning I had the pleasure of meet- ing 31 students from Port Hardy Secondary School, grades 10 to 12. It was a major trip for them, and they were fundraising for a year to come here. They spent the morning learning about what we do in the House as well as the history of this place.

I hope the House will make them and their teachers very welcome. [1335] Hon. I. Chong: Today in the gallery we have some visitors from the UBCM executive. They are Councillor Mary Sjostrom from Ques nel and her husband Butch Sjostrom. W e h a v e D i r e c t o r T e r r y R a y m o n d ; h e ' s a m e m b e r from the Fraser Valley regional district. We have Coun- cillor Janis Dahlen, UBCM executive member from Na- kusp, and Director Rhona Martin, UBCM executive member for Columbia-Shuswap regional district.

I know they're here in the next number of days to meet with ministers as well as MLAs, and I believe they're hosting a breakfast for members to greet and meet the UBCM executive. For those who are here today, I hope the House will make them all very welcome. Hon. M. de Jong: Mr. Speaker, he is an individual that we meet with once a year. We are happy to see him on that occasion. We hope we won't see him indi- vidually on other occasions, but we're always thrilled collectively when His Honour the Conflict-of-Interest Commissioner joins us in this chamber. Please wel- come Mr. H.A.D.

Oliver, His Honour the Conflict-of- Interest Commissioner. J. Rustad: It's my pleasure today to introduce two people to the House, Craig Caruso and his sister Tamara Caruso. Craig is serving his second term as councillor in the district of Stewart as well as a director for the regional district of the Kitimat-Stikine area. Craig is also a trustee for sc hool district 82. He spends most of his life in rural B.C. and is very concerned about rural economic development. Craig is also the current president of the North Central Municipal Asso- ciation. Would the House please make them welcome. Hon. B.

Penner: Just looking up into the gallery, I see a familiar face. It's good to see him back up and around — the former executive director of the B.C. Wildlife Federation, Tony Toth. Hon. M. de Jong: Mr. Speaker, a former member of this chamber quietly rode into town. Mr. John Wilson represented the constituency of Cariboo North, and he has joined us in this chamber again. I hope all members will welcome him back. Introduction and First Reading of Bills SECURITIES AMENDMENT ACT, 2007 Hon. W. Oppal presented a message from Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Secu- rities Amendment Act, 2007. Hon. W.

Oppal: Mr. Speaker, I move that Bill 28 be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. W. Oppal: I'm pleased to introduce the amendments to the Securities Act. This bill includes three types of amendments to the Securities Act. First, the bill makes targeted amendments to the Securities Act to continue British Columbia's commitment to harmonize and streamline securities legislation in Can- ada. Second, it strengthens compliance and enforce- ment powers to provide the British Columbia Securities Commission with powers already available in other Canadian jurisdictions.

Third, it improves investor protection. In particular, the bill establishes a new statutory civil liability framework that will hold a public com- pany as well as those responsible for the company's disclosure accountable for making misleading state- ments, whether written or oral. The same liability

6836 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2007 framework is already in effect in Ontario, Manitoba and Alberta. In 2004 the ministers for British Columbia and several other provinces and territories signed a memo- randum of understanding re garding securities regula- tions. The memorandum of understanding commits the provinces and the territories to make their best efforts to implement a passport system for securities regula- tion and to develop and implement highly harmonized and streamlined securities laws. Bill 28 provides for amendments envisaged by the memorandum of under- standing. Hon.

Speaker, I move that the bill be placed on the orders of day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 28, Securities Am endment Act, 2007, intro- duced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. [1340] BUSINESS PRACTICES AND CONSUMER PROTECTION (PAYDAY LOANS) AMENDMENT ACT, 2007 Hon. J. Les presented a message from Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Business Practices and Consumer Protection (Payday Loans) Amendment Act, 2007. Hon. J. Les: Mr.

Speaker, I move that Bill 27 be in- troduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. J. Les: I'm pleased to introduce amendments to the Business Practices an d Consumer Protection Act to regulate payday lenders and to limit fees that may be charged for cashing government cheques. This bill follows over th ree years of research and analysis by the federal-provincial-territorial working group under the leadership of British Columbia to de- velop a framework to regulate this small short-term loan market.

For the past several years British Columbia has chaired this federal-provincial-territorial working group. Amendments to

section 347 of the federal Crimi- nal Code, now before the Senate in Ottawa, will en- able provinces and territories to establish effective protections for consumers using the services of pay- day lenders. As noted previously, provinces were not able to enact laws such as the one that we now pro- pose until the federal government had made these amendments. This bill will require payday lenders to be licensed. It will limit interest and other charges on payday loans, and it will require full disclosure of terms and condi- tions of loans, as well as prohibiting practices that can lead consumers into a debt spiral.

This bill will also enable British Columbia to set maximum fees for cashing government cheques. These cheques, obviously, pose little financial risk to the casher once the identificati on of the consumer and the authenticity of the cheque are established. Prior to bringing these provisions on payday loans and cheque-cashing fees into force, the province will consult with consumer repr esentatives and with busi- nesses that provide these services to determine maxi- mum charges that are reasonable for consumers but sufficient to cover administration costs.

I move that Bill 27 be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 27, Business Practices and Consumer Protection (Payday Loans) Amendment Act, 2007, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. MINIMUM WAGE FAIRNESS ACT, 2007 C. James presented a bill intituled Minimum Wage Fairness Act, 2007. C. James: I move introduction of the Minimum Wage Fairness Act, 2007. Motion approved. C.

James: After a six-year freeze, it's time the gov- ernment of British Columbia gave our province's lowest- paid workers a raise. The Minimum Wage Fairness Act will raise the minimum wage to $10 per hour, and it implements a system to inde x increases in future years so that B.C.'s lowest-paid workers never have to face a six-year freeze again. By providing this lift and indexing future increases, B.C.'s lowest-paid workers get much-needed support and employees get the certainty they need to plan for the future. Workers have wait ed far too long for this lift.

The cost-of-living increase in B.C. has skyrocketed in recent years, and too many British Columbians are struggling to make ends meet. This act also reduces the small business tax rate by a full percentage point to reduce costs for the small busi- ness sector. This reduction would also be the first in six years and would benefit small businesses across this province, including more than 200,000 self-employed British Columbians. [1345] The Minimum Wage Fairness Act is a balanced approach to supporting our lowest-paid workers and promoting growth in B.C.'s small business sector.

I m o v e t h a t t h i s b i l l b e p l a c e d o n t h e o r d e r s o f the day for second reading at the next sitting after today. Bill M214, Minimum Wage Fairness Act, 2007, in- troduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2007 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6837 WATER RESOURCE PROTECTION ACT, 2007 R. Austin presented a bill intituled Water Resource Protection Act, 2007. R. Austin: I move introduction and first reading of the Water Resource Protection Act. Motion approved. R. Austin: We're blessed with a wealth of rivers and streams in this province. Past governments of varying political stripe have treated our waterways as a resource and have sought to get full value from them. Water, those governments realized, is a valuable re- source that belongs to the people of this province.

Brit- ish Columbians should benefit from the use of that resource, and that's the spirit of this bill. Under the Water Resource Protection Act, water use rental rates for independent power producers would be set by the B.C. Utilities Commission as fixed to a percentage of the average market price of power. It would give the commission the freedom to set different rates for commercial and general power use.

In setting these rates, the commission would take into account the cost of production, infr astructure, the subsidization of existing infrastructure and the right of British Co- lumbian taxpayers to a fair return on that investment. This bill would allow power producers the ability to earn fair and reasonable profits while ensuring that British Columbians, as owners of the resource, benefit from the use of the water that they own. I urge all members of the House to support this bill and to show support for public resources.

I move that this bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting after today. Bill M215, Water Resource Protection Act, 2007, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sit- ting of the House after today. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) CAPITAL CITY VOLUNTEERS C. James: Mr. Speaker, as we continue to celebrate National Volunteer Week, I wanted to take this oppor- tunity to thank all of British Columbia's many volun- teers — the people who give so much of themselves to better our communities and the lives of others. The work, time, effort and dedication that these British Co- lumbians contribute to our province must be celebrated and supported. Here in Victoria there ar e many individuals, groups and organizations that work tirelessly in our commu- nity, and today I'd like to recognize one such group in my community of Victoria–Beacon Hill.

Capital City Volunteers is an organization dedi- cated to helping seniors and people with disabilities stay independent in their own homes. This organiza- tion began in the 1980s when Margaret Salmond, a North Park Manor Society board member, saw the need and opportunity to provide more services to the manor's residents. Today Capital City Volunt eers is a thriving and dynamic organization made up of hundreds of dedi- cated volunteers. They have consistently developed new programs and services, including an outreach program that's geared to finding youth volunteers.

This organization has built partnerships with many community service organizations and supported various work experience programs. The work that this valuable community group does helps many Victoria residents live better, happier and more independent lives. As one of the organization's founders, Luella Hillmer, once said: "It really is just about caring for your neighbour." I'd like to thank the entire Capital City Volunteers organization and all of the volunteers for their amazing work. BOWL FOR KIDS SAKE EVENT IN LANGLEY M.

Polak: On March 31 the Willowbrook Lanes in Langley were overrun by an unruly group dressed in poo- dle skirts, leather jackets, T-shirts and even a ducktail or two. But it wasn't a case of gang activity or teens up to no good. No, this was a group of people who, along with their 1950s-themed costumes, were wearing bowling shoes, and they were delivering pledges for Big Brothers Big Sisters of Langley. Teams from local business and community or- ganizations were there to bowl for kids' sake. Our local constituency office even fielded a team that managed a respectable showing, in spite of my own participation.

Bowl for Kids Sake is part of a national initiative that has become Big Brothers Big Sisters of Langley's largest and most important fundraising event. Those that come out to support Big Brothers Big Sisters know the positive impact that these programs have on our community. [1350] The impact of mentoring on children and youth is well known, but the impact on the mentor, the big brothers or big sisters themselves, is what keeps volun- teers involved year after year. Those who volunteer as in-school mentors report all sorts of benefits to their own well-being. They have an improved attitude at work.

They learn about them selves. They feel better about themselves. For thos e whose employers are ac- tive in the program, they feel proud to work for a com- pany that cares. The work of Big Brothers Big Sisters is a valuable investment in the well-being of children and youth and a huge contribution to the well-being of everyone in the community. The support of all those who bowl for kids' sake is an essential part of ensuring the ongoing success of mentoring programs throughout Langley, raising over $40,000 this year.

To Barbara Scott and the volunteers and partici- pants who made this event possible, I want us all to say thank you for their hard work and dedication in sup- port of the children and youth of Langley.

6838 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2007 ECONOMIC DIVERSIFICATION IN QUESNEL B. Simpson: Quesnel is in the heart of the mountain pine beetle infestation. It is an understatement to say that the economic future of this community remains uncertain. One of the most forest-dependent communi- ties in British Columbia, Quesnel has long prided itself on having the highest concentration of primary and secondary wood manufacturing and pulp manufactur- ing in North America, if not the world.

However, ques- tions now abound about how we will feed all these mills once the beetle-infested wood loses its value. While some people in the community hope another big industry will come along and save the day, a growing number of people have come to realize that the future of Quesnel will be secured through a diverse array of small and medium-sized ventures by local entrepreneurs using our region's resources to grow a local economy.

Groups like the North Cariboo Agricultural Association and our local farmers' market are fully engaged in maximizing every opportunity from our region's agricultural poten- tial, including global sales of their products and the growing sector of agritourism. The Quesnel 2020 project came up with a vision of Quesnel as an attractive, green and connected commu- nity. This project recogniz ed that Quesnel must im- prove its infrastructure not only to secure investment but to help attract and retain more residents in the re- gion.

Today I'd like to recogn ize the contribution that Councillor Sjostrom has made to this with her heartfelt efforts in Communities in Bloom and making our city look beautiful every spring and summer. The business, agriculture, tourism, and arts and culture sectors are also comi ng to the realization that they must take full advantage of the fact that the world is now coming to Quesnel three days a week, from May to September, when the Rocky Mountain Vaca- tions train comes to town.

In their inaugural year last year Rocky Mountain Vacations brought 4,500 guests to Quesnel, along with trav el writers and international media. The guests' feedback was that Quesnel met or exceeded their expectations. BRYCE SCHAUFELBERGER R. Hawes: "Let me win, but if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." That's the oath of the Special Olympics, and it is one that epitomizes the life of Bryce Schaufelberger, who I'm proud to say is one of my con- stituents.

More than a decade ago Bryce founded the Mission Self-Advocacy Group, whose members have an intellectual disability sometimes compounded by a physical disability. Self-advocates speak up about their rights and the rights of their peers. Their go al is to educate the public about their right to be treated with respect and dignity and to be included in all facets of community. Under Bryce's leadership in Mission, they have succeeded.

Bryce has been honoured with a community service award from the district of Mission for his volunteer assistance to people with disabilities and has also been recognized for his service on the board of the interim authority for Community Living B.C. This fall Bryce will be representing all of us as a member of Team Canada's soccer team at the Special Olympics World Summer Games in China. I know Bryce Schaufelberger, and I know that he lives up to the Special Olympics oath in every way. Win or lose, Bryce Schaufelberger will always be brave in every- thing he does.

He's truly an Olympian in every sense of the word. Best of luck, Bryce, and bring back the gold. [1355] TANGLE/TOOTH NETS AND RESPONSIBLE FISHING PRACTICES R. Austin: I rise today to bring to members' atten- tion the tangle/tooth net an d the Skeena constituent, Fred Hawkshaw, who is putting this to good use. As we all recognize, gill-nets are a highly effective harvest- ing tool. Their efficiency brings some concerns because there is collateral damage, called bycatch, in the form of birds and fish that are not targeted.

In Skeena, people want to catch sockeye, but they can't help but catch steelhead, coho and other fish. Af- ter man-made spawning channels increased the sock- eye runs, more boats brought more pressure on the fishery. This has led to harv esting pressure on the un- enhanced stocks, leading to diminished biodiversity. When DFO — due to pressure brought to bear by environmentalists, sportsmen and first nations — de- creed that there must be a dramatic reduction in non- target species, Fred Hawkshaw realized this could never be achieved with the use of conventional gill-netting.

He heard of an innovative net that had been developed by Mark Petrunia for the Fraser River dog salmon fishery, and after experimenting and modifying, he has come up with a net that catches salmon by the nose. This tangle/tooth net is in-the-face technology that when fished correctly keeps netting out of the fish gills, thereby ensuring that it can be released alive if it's a non- target species. To further ensure the survival of the by- catch, Hawkshaw uses holding tanks that have water flowing through them. He calls this responsible fishing.

Because they are kept alive until he reaches the dock, Fred's fish are in premium condition. He has marketed his catch to restaurants that have paid a premium price for them. Consequently, Fred made $80,000 last season, when the average gill-netter made $12,000. The industry and its managers are strongly resis- tant to change, and despite Fred's success financially and ecologically, he fears th e collapse of the salmon stocks and the fleet. But surely responsible fishing is key to saving both.

The implementation of this technology is in the hands of DFO, and I hope that when the Ministry of Agriculture and Lands meet wi th their counterparts in DFO, they will encourage the use of the tangle/tooth net, as I am sure all members would agree that any fishery should be sustainable and create enhanced value for those who participate.

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2007 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6839 AGRITOURISM AND WORK OF BILL AND DAGMAR NORTON J. Rustad: Agritourism is not a new concept. Many countries around the world offer agritourism opportu- nities, including Canada. Agritourism is a form of sus- tainable tourist development through which the visitor has an opportunity to get acquainted with the agricul- tural areas, agricultural occupations, local products and daily life on the farm.

Agritourism has the poten- tial to be an economic driver in the tourism industry as well as an effective tool in promoting the level of awareness of local agriculture industry and the impor- tance of it in our society. At a time when there seems to be a disconnect be- tween the consumer and the grower of agricultural products, agritourism has the potential to help bridge the gap, along with things like fall fairs, farmers' mar- kets, 4-H groups and others. Now, you may be asking: why is this important? It's important because, as the member for Delta South says, we all need to eat to live.

It's also important because con- necting local products with consumers can help improve the quality of the food we eat, help reduce the pollution created from importing the food we consume and help improve the economies of the agricultural industry. In my riding of Prince George–Omineca, Bill and Dagmar Norton have been working on developing an agritourism opportunity. They've successfully converted some of the farm buildings into top-quality lodgings. These fabulous facilities co mbined with the natural beauty of their farm setting make a very unique agri- tourism experience.

Their warm and friendly personali- ties combined with their belief in the land, in people and in the future help to make this a fantastic experience. I ask the House to join me in thanking Bill and Dagmar Norton for helping to promote the agricultural industry while providing a unique experience for all to enjoy. You can find out more about their four-and-a- half-star facilities by going to www.nortonranch.com. Oral Questions GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO ALLEGATIONS REGARDING FORMER FINANCE DEPUTY MINISTER H. Lali: Last year I sent a letter to the Premier asking the following questions.

I asked him: "Do you have any information regarding Mr. Paul Taylor, former Deputy Minister of Finance, having directed lobbying work to Mr. Brian Kieran?" I also asked: "Have you made any inquiries about Mr. Taylor directing business to Mr. Kieran?" The Premier answered no to both questions. My question is to the Attorney General. Does the Attorney General consider th e Premier's remarks to be appropriate and accurate? [1400] Hon. C. Taylor: In fact, there has been some public information since the time of that particular letter.

I think we're all aware of a memo that was in the news- papers, which did mention the particular individual that the member opposite has identified. As a result of this and because there was some question about what in fact happened, although I has- ten to say that this was just a memo between two lob- byists, and we have to be very careful to make any as- sumptions…. Nonetheless, because it was in the public domain, the Deputy Minister to the Premier, because she is in charge of the public service, has conducted and is conducting a review of the actions at that time. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

H. Lali: Hon. Speaker, I do have a supplemental. That is obviously on my concerns regarding the con- duct of the Premier's hand-picked deputy minister, a deputy minister who the Premier had personally lured away from the New Car Dealers Association. I see that the Finance Minister has just got up and provided this information, after the story appeared in the Globe and Mail. Again, my question is to the Finance Minister: why did the Premier not provide the informa- tion when I asked him in my letter at least five or six months ago?

Why did the Premier not answer the question then, and why is it that it takes this govern- ment to have itself exposed on the front pages of newspapers before they're forthcoming with informa- tion? Was the Premier in knowledge of this informa- tion at that time, and why did he not provide that in- formation when I wrote that letter last year? Hon. C.

Taylor: As soon as the information was made available to the Premier and the Deputy Minister to the Premier, she immediately conducted an initial review and decided to go to an outside firm who would help conduct an inde pendent review, which is being done at this time. C. James: Well, I hear the response from the Finance Minister, who says that an investigation has started, but I think it's important that in formation be clear and that we get responses back. Brian Kieran told his collea gues at Pilothouse after a fishing trip he had with Paul Taylor: "Paul told Glen he needed government relations on the ground.

He needed us." That's from an e-mail we obtained that outlines the deal. According to Brian Kieran, Paul Taylor was setting them up with a contract with the New Car Dealers of B.C., an organization that Mr. Taylor used to run. The evidence is clear. This is a matter of public trust. My question is to the Attorney General. Apart from the investigation that's going on, are there other examples that need to be investigated of experiences where deputy ministers, se nior officials are outside setting up business deals for lobbying firms? Hon. C.

Taylor: If ever information comes to gov- ernment regarding the behaviour of anyone involved with government, then we do the proper review and analysis. In this particular instance, as soon as the

6840 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2007 e-mail — which I again will say was one lobbyist writ- i n g t o a n o t h e r , a n d w e h a v e t o b e v e r y c a r e f u l w h a t conclusions we jump to…. Whenever something like that happens, then the proper procedures are followed. In this instance the Deputy Minister to the Premier has engaged an outside firm to conduct the review. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a supplemental. C. James: My question then is: when was the in- formation received?

When we saw the letter that came to our member for Yale-Lillooet, where the Premier said nothing was going on…. My question is: when did the Finance Minister get this information, and when was the investigation started? Hon. C. Taylor: In speaking on behalf of the Deputy Minister to the Premier and the Premier, I will simply say that as soon as the information was received by them, the review was started. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplemental. [1405] C.

James: O n c e a g a i n , w h a t w e s e e f r o m t h i s g o v - ernment is that we'll get no information until they figure out how they're going to spin it out there publicly. This letter was very clear. In the e-mail it says: "I could come up with this kind of great intelligence too, if I lived next door to a blabby deputy minister." Not a very flattering description of the former Deputy of Finance. I understand that that former Deputy of Finance has now been appointed to the new convention centre board.

My question to the Finance Minister: with an investigation going on, don't you think there'd be some concern with appointing this deputy minister to the convention board? Hon. C. Taylor: I'm surprised that I would have to suggest to the Leader of the Opposition that she be very careful in making allegations about someone else's career and personal integrity. All we have here is a memo between lobbyists that has been unsubstantiated but raised concerns so that the Deputy Minister to the Premier immediately brought in a third party to review the situation.

I really think it is disgraceful to make the jump that all of a sudden an individual is not doing a proper job. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. M. Farnworth: If the questions were concerning a minister and there was an investigation taking place, that minister would be asked to step aside while the investigation took place. It does not cast an allegation on the individual but rather allows an investigation to take place.

Given that this memo deals with who was then a senior deputy minister in the government, the minister has recognized the seriousness and the importance of this particular issue by having it investigated. Does the minister responsible for the trade and convention cen- tre project not consider it appropriate that Mr. Taylor step aside while this investigation is conducted? Hon. C. Taylor: T h i s i s a v e r y s e r i o u s s i t u a t i o n when we stand in this Ho use where we have protec- tion with what we say, and yet individuals' careers can be affected and besmirched by the comments that are being made.

If the opposition feels so strongly that they have the answers and they know what happened, I would suggest they say it outside in the hall. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Member has a supplemental. M. Farnworth: These allegations are not our allega- tions. They're Mr. Kieran's allegations, and they're seri- ous enough that the Premier's deputy is investigating them. The government itself recognizes the seriousness, so the Premier's own deputy is investigating them. So my question again is to the minister responsible, who is sitting there. Does he not believe it's appropriate that Mr.

Taylor, former seni or deputy minister, step aside while this investigation takes place? Hon. C. Taylor: When this memo first hit the press and we saw the situation and the comments that were made, it was certainly taken very seriously by this side of the House. When the e-mail was first made known to the Premier and the Deputy Minister to the Premier, action was immediately taken. [1410] A review is being conducted, and it is being con- ducted by a third party outside of government so that, in fact, we will know exactly what the situation is. VANCOUVER CONVENTION CENTRE EXPANSION COSTS N.

Macdonald: On Monday the Minister of Tour- ism told the people of B.C. that it was Ken Dobell's idea to merge the boards of the convention centre project and PavCo — not the minister's. Given that Ken Dobell has shown himself incapable of running the convention centre project and given that B.C. taxpayers are going to be paying twice as much as they were originally promised, why is the minister still being told what to do by Mr. Ken Dobell when the only thing that the minister really needs from Ken Dobell is the final cost on the convention centre project? Hon. S. Hagen: Mr.

Speaker, you know, the pon- tificating that comes from that side of the House is ab- solutely phenomenal. I've go t to tell you that this con- vention centre is a giant job-producing machine.

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2007 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6841 Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Take your seat. Members. Minister, continue. Hon. S. Hagen: M y q u e s t i o n t o t h e m i s : w h y a r e they against the 7,000 construction jobs that are work- ing on that site? Why are they against the 6,000 new jobs that are going to be created to operate that site? Why are they against the $850 million that's going to be generated by the 50 new conventions coming to this province? Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. N. Macdonald: Okay. Today it's pontificating. Yes- terday it was punctilious.

Did you actually know what punctilious meant? I had to go and look it up. Do you know what it means? It means somebody very con- cerned about details. It seems to me that what this pro- ject needed from the beginning was some concern about details. The minister has had two days to nail down the final cost overruns on the convention centre project. Surely the minister knows that "in the range of $800 million" is not going to be good enough for any British Columbian. You are spending their money. Their ex- pectation is that they get a final cost estimate. So my question to the minister is this.

Does he hon- estly not know how much that project is going to cost, or is he not willing to tell the people who are paying for it what that cost is? Hon. S. Hagen: This new trade and convention centre project is the single biggest economic driver I have ever seen. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: I just want to remind the members that it's running time. Hon. S. Hagen: Those words are not my words. Those are the words of former NDP Premier Glen Clark back in November of 1997. He was in favour of it. As a matter of fact, he spent $73 million and didn't even get one pile in the ground.

But why are they against this project? I don't un- derstand that. We'll have tens of thousands of tourists and conventioneers coming to Vancouver. They will be sitting out on the patio drin king good B.C. wine, and then they'll be looking out at the harbour. They'll be looking at Vancouver harbour, and what will they see? They will see three shrink-wrapped ferries parked over on the other side. [1415] Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. H. Bains: All week we've been trying to get an- swers from this minister about the convention centre. All week this minister has been ducking.

I will ask the minister one more time. You have responsibility to the taxpayers. You have been on the job for eight months now. You've got to know the numbers. Tell us: what is the current number on the convention centre? Hon. S. Hagen: If I was that member, here's what I would have wanted to talk about. I would have wanted to talk about the green benefi ts of this building. Let's talk about that. The living roof — 2.5 hectares. That's six acres, the size of 15 hockey rinks. More than 700,000 B.C. plants and grasses. This project is being built to the gold LEED green global certification system. Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Member, just sit down. Members. Continue. Hon. S. Hagen: I'm excited about this project. Not only is the grass on the roof going to be green, but the habitat restoration that's taking place underneath this building…. The Vancouver Aquarium is so excited that they're already conducting tours underneath the build- ing to see the habitat restoration that is taking place. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Member has a supplemental. H. Bains: What we are talking about is a world- class cost overrun, and this minister doesn't care.

Tax- payers who are watching right now deserve to know how much money they will be forced to fork out for the mismanagement of this Premier's friends. After eight months on this job, the minister doesn't know or wouldn't say. So let me use the Premier's words: what are the Premier's final kaputski numbers for this boondoggle? Hon. S. Hagen: I have said time and time again that I am not happy with the increased costs of the Trade and Convention Centre, but let me bring some reality into this discussion, because it's not coming from that side of the House.

We have seen since '03 a 25-percent increase in steel, a 54-percent increase in rebar and a 39-percent increase in concrete. That's what is in the ground there right now. So there have been incredible cost increases that have happened through every building project in B.C. because of — why? — our hot economy. Why do we have a hot economy? Because of the economic poli- cies that we brought in place. I was in government in 1991. In 1991 this province had the strongest economy in Canada. Five years later, under the NDP government, we were number 10 in

6842 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2007 this country. We had the worst economy in this coun- try, and two years after that, under the lack of leader- ship over there, we were declared a have-not province. I want to ask the question: is there anybody in this House who thinks that we are a have-not province? Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. [1420] COMPLIANCE OF KEN DOBELL WITH LOBBYISTS REGISTRATION ACT J. Kwan: Mr. Dobell is a friend and special adviser to the Premier. He is the chair of the finance committee of VANOC. He's a director of Legacies Now and a board member of the Law Society.

He enjoys two un- tendered contracts with the ci ty of Vancouver, and he's a registered lobbyist. Information obtained from the lobbyists registry indicates that Mr. Dobell registered for the first time as a lobbyist for the development of the cultural precinct project for the city of Vancouver on October 28, 2006, but backdated his activities to April 5. The Lobbyists Registration Act stipulates very clearly that a consulting lobbyist like Mr. Dobell must file with the registrar within ten days of starting to lobby for a client, and any person that contravenes this

section of the act commits an offence and is subject to a fine of up to $25,000. My question is to the Attorney General. Is he aware of this fact, and if so, what actions have been under- taken to pursue Mr. Dobell's violation of the Lobbyists Registration Act? Hon. W. Oppal: It's important to note that the Lob- byists Registration Act was brought into effect here in 2002. Prior to that, there was no act. The legislation as it stands now was passed without any opposition.

If the member opposite has specific complaints re- garding the conduct of a lobbyist or a would-be lobby- ist, then it's incumbent upon that member to register a complaint with the commissioner. The commissioner is there to listen to complaints for any person who is in alleged violation of the lobbyist act. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. The member has a supplemental. J. Kwan: The Attorney General should know that the act gives the Information Commissioner no legisla- tive power to investigate or to enforce violations.

It is the Attorney General who is responsible for adminis- tering the Lobbyists Registration Act. It's the Attorney General who has the legislative authority. Why has the government not undertaken any steps to investigate Mr. Dobell? In the minimum, will the Attorney General commit today to launch an investiga- tion into this violation? Hon. W. Oppal: Again, I reiterate that if there are complaints with respect to the conduct of any person who is alleged to be a lobbyist or is engaging in lobby- ing activities, then that matter ought to be brought to the attention of the commissioner or other authorities.

Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Minister, just take your seat. Member for Victoria-Hillside, will you get up and apologize for what you just said. Just retract it. R. Fleming: I apologize to the House, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Continue, Attorney. Hon. W. Oppal: It does little good to make the allega- tions in this House. Make the allegations outside the House. Make the allegations to the commissioner, where it will do some good. You know what? I've heard from time to time, during the last six months to a year, concerns about the Lobbyists Registration Act, but the complaints are always made in this House.

They're never made outside the House. We're quite prepared to listen to the workings of the…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Thank you, Attorney. M. Karagianis: Well, the Attorney General…. You are the other authority. The Attorney General is the other authority, the high- est authority here in this province. There is no place else to go, hon. Speaker. Mr. Dobell has failed in his self-professed account- ability on the convention proj ect. The solution to that was to do a structural restructuring of the board in order to cover his trail. Now we hear that Mr.

Dobell has backdated lobby registry information by six months, and the government refuses to take any action on this. I'd like to ask the Attorney General: are there two sets of laws here in British Columbia — one for Liberal friends and insiders, and another one for the rest of us? [1425] Hon. W. Oppal: We operate under the rules of fair- ness, under the rules of tran sparency. As I said a mo- ment ago, it does no good to make wild allegations within this chamber. If there are allegations with respect to the conduct of any person, then those allegations ought to be made to the appropriate source. Mr.

Speaker: Member has a supplemental. M. Karagianis: Well, there's nothing wild about these allegations in any way. It's on the record. The information is right here, and it is official, open and public information. You know, Mr. Speaker, the Attorney General has a very unique position in government. The independ- ence of his office and his role is really crucial to the very integrity of government.

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2007 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6843 I would like to ask the Attorney General again if he will make the commitment to fully investigate Mr. Dobell's violation of the Lobbyists Registration Act. Hon. W. Oppal: Mr. Speaker, I'm well aware of the duties of the Attorney General's office. I thank the mem- ber for apprising me of them. If the member opposite has allegations with respect to the conduct of any per- son, I'm quite prepared to listen to them, but I only hear them within the confines of this House. If there are alle- gations, I'm quite prepared to hear them.

The commis- sioner is quite prepared to hear them as well. L. Krog: Hon. Speaker, the on ly thing weaker than the Attorney General's response is the complete lack of enforceability of the Lobbyists Registration Act. The act is clear. A lobbyist must register… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. L. Krog: …within ten days of undertaking to lobby on behalf of a client. If a person contravenes this

section of the act, he or she commits an offence under the act and is liable to a fine of up to $25,000. Mr. Dobell backdated his lobbyist activities by more than six months. There is no provision for enforcement in the statute. The Attorney General knows that. He has listened to the questions today. Will he commit today to launch a full investigation? The public record is clear. The documents are out there. Will the Attorney General commit to launch that investigation? Hon. W. Oppal: I'm well aware of the provisions of the act.

All I ask is that the allegations be registered with the commissioner, who is quite prepared to hear them, and the process will take its course. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. L. Krog: Well, I have a document in front of me that is very clear. It confirms exactly what has been alleged in this House. I will table that document, and if I table that document, will the Attorney General then commit to fi- nally do his job in this matter and launch an investigation? Hon. W. Oppal: Hon.

Speaker, I'm quite prepared to do all those matters that are incumbent upon me to do under the act. [End of question period.] S. Hawkins: I seek leave to make an introduction, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. Introductions by Members S. Hawkins: In the gallery today is a very special guest, a friend of mine I've known for over 20 years, visiting from Alberta. Mr. Do ug Rae is a lawyer there. We worked on many, many elections in Calgary. I think he's working here in Victoria, but he's also here to see how the Legislature runs. [1430] He's also a new resident of the Kootenays. He has a vacation place there.

Would the House please join me in welcoming Mr. Doug Rae. L. Krog: I seek leave to table a document. Leave granted. Tabling Documents L. Krog: I seek leave to table a document, which is a response to a user information request relating to the allegations I've just made in this chamber. Orders of the Day Hon. M. de Jong: I call Committee of Supply in this chamber. We will continue with the estimates of the Min- istry of Forests and Range and, in Committee A, the esti- mates, firstly, of the Ministry of Education, to be followed by the estimates of the Ministry of Advanced Education.

Committee of Supply ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF FORESTS AND RANGE AND MINISTER RESPONSIBLE FOR HOUSING (continued) The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); S. Hammell in the chair. The committee met at 2:34 p.m. On Vote 33: ministry operations, $489,876,000 (con- tinued). Hon. R. Coleman: Before we begin today, I want to clarify a few items from yesterday's debates. First, the member for Cariboo North asked whether the lumber export taxes received by the province were reflected in the revenue calcul ations for the Ministry of Forests and Range. The answer is yes.

The blue book estimates for 2007-2008 forest revenue is $1.395 billion. That item includes the softwood lumber export tax. Details of the forest revenue components can be found on page 156, table A10, "Mat erial assumptions," in the 2007-2008 Budget and Fiscal Plan. [1435] Second, the member asked where the $450 million U.S. for meritorious initiati ves was directed after the softwood lumber agreemen t was implemented.

The federal government advises us that the money is being provided to three organizations in the United States: (1) $200 million U.S. to the United States Endowment for Forestry and Communities, (2) $150 million U.S. to the

6844 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2007 American Forest Foundation and (3) $100 million U.S. to Habitat for Humanity International. Third, the member asked a series of questions about the terms of Ken Dobe ll's existing and future contract. My information was incorrect. We are not in the process of negotiating a contract with Mr. Dobell. His contract with the Premier's office extends to May 31, 2007, and includes any work he does on behalf of the ministry for the coastal forest industry or anything to do with softwood.

If the member has any further questions about the terms of that contract, whic h is the one I believe the member got through FOI, I would refer him to those appropriate estimates debates with regards to that par- ticular contract. B. Simpson: I appreciate the clarifications. Just on the Dobell clarification — Mr. Dobell. I find there was quite a bit of confusion, then, yesterday, be- cause we had quite a substantive debate about negotia- tions that I guess must not have been going on. Will the minister, then, engage in those negotiations — what will it be? — post-June 1? Will the minister be retaining Mr.

Dobell from then on under a separate contract? Hon. R. Coleman: It's actually not clear at this stage that we're even going to require his services after the end of May, so we would engage with the source of the contract, which I assume would still be the Premier's office, if we thought we had a requirement for some of this time under the contract. B. Simpson: Anyway, I'll move on. Yesterday in estimates we were canvassing whether or not the forest revitalization plan had achieved its in- tended objectives. We discovered that it has cost over half a billion dollars for the plan. We discovered that….

While I argue it was an attempt to prevent a softwood lumber agreement and British Columbia's exclusion from a future softwood lumber agreement, the minister at least admit- ted it was an attempt to mitigate that. I think we showed that mitigation didn't occur. B.C. never got any other spe- cial treatment than the rest of Canada did. We also started to canvass the coastal situation, and that's how we got to Mr. Dobell. On the coastal situa- tion, which the forestry revitalization strategy explic- itly states would strengthen the coast, now we're going into iteration 2.

The minister suggested that I was looking for a magic pill. That's simply not the case. I know the indus- try too well. I know its complexities too well to be look- ing for a magic pill. What I' m trying to understand is how one failed strategy, with all the players that were engaged in that failed strategy, leads to another strategy with all the players that are involved yet again. At the end of that discussion the minister indicated that he's been talking to a lot of people, yet at the same time indicated he wasn't at the table in the discussions with the steering group and whatever Mr.

Dobell was apparently facilitating. That's raised a number of ques- tions for me. With respect to the minister's activities, how many sawmills in British Columbia has the minis- ter toured over the last year? Hon. R. Coleman: I couldn't possibly, off the top of my head, give that number to the member. I've been in a lot of sawmills in the last couple of years all over the province of British Columbia, and I would have to go back and look at my

schedule to actually give you a definitive number. I have been in sawmills in the Kootenays, the inte- rior, the coast and the nort h. Actually, anytime I've basically gone through a community, if there's been a mill or something, I've trie d to tie that into my other duties at the same time to have an opportunity to see how other mills operate and that sort of thing. [1440] B. Simpson: We've tried to get the minister's calen- dar, and we'd like to see that . We tried to get it under FOI, and hence I have to ask the questions.

The minister was invited to sit down with the people at the New West mill in Queensborough during that closure process. Did the minister meet with the workers group at Queensborough mill as they requested of him? Hon. R. Coleman: I met with the head of the local union in my constituency office. I believe it was in early February that I actually met with him, when I returned from holidays. It was either that or before holidays, but I did meet with the leader of the union with regard to that mill at that time. B. Simpson: Did the minister deliberately choose not to meet with the group?

They asked the minister to meet with the employees at one point. What was the reason behind not meeting with the employees as a whole? Hon. R. Coleman: No, it wasn't anything to do with that. I was out of the country for a big chunk of Janu- ary, when some of this was going on. I know some of my staff met with different groups with regards to the New Westminster closing. That would be the only rea- son — and then scheduling, of course, to try and do things. That was the only reason and none other. B. Simpson: Has the minister done any tours of mountain-pine-beetle-impacted areas?

Have you looked at it either flying over or on the ground? Hon. R. Coleman: The member knows that I have, and so the answer is yes. B. Simpson: What about the fires up in our area, for example? Did the minister go and look at that, most recently with respect to the fire in the Nazko area, and the combination of fire and dead plantations in that area? Has the minister actually gone and seen those locations? Hon. R. Coleman: Not specifically, no. I can't get to every fire location in the province. That's why I have

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2007 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6845 staff in every region with regards to fire information officers and with regards to everything else that goes on, on the land base. I have flown over the area of the pine beetle probably more than a dozen times since I was elected in 1996, starting in about 2001 or 2002. B. Simpson: Has the minister visited any of the dead plantations or juvenile stands and seen for him- self how deep the mountain pine beetle is impacting the age class? Hon. R. Coleman: Yes, I've had that pointed out to me on a couple of tours that I have done, so I am aware of that nuance.

B. Simpson: In how many forest-dependent com- munities has the minister sat with the local councils, in the communities? Hon. R. Coleman: I would say 30 to 40 over the last two years. At UBCM I do about 60 meetings where I meet with local government. Probably 80 to 90 percent of those meetings are with forest communities with regards to issues including pine beetle, community forests and that sort of thing within their communities.

In addition to that, I've been in most of my Forest Service offices throughout the area, sat down with my staff in round-table conversations whenever the oppor- tunity has arisen, attended meetings with my senior staff and had discussions with them on a regular basis. So I meet with local government a fair amount, actually. B. Simpson: I wasn't actually referring to UBCM. What I was asking about was actually getting out and meeting with local governments in their communities so that the whole council has the opportunity and the minister has an opportunity to see what's happening in the communities.

Has the minister had an opportunity to do much of that? [1445] Hon. R. Coleman: Yeah, I have done that in a num- ber of communities that way. But just for clarification for the member, when they come to UBCM, it's not a mem- ber of council. I get entire councils that come to see me at UBCM. It's a very convenient forum for them, and it's a convenient forum for us to be able to go through. We go through their issues. We make notes of what their issues a n d c o n c e r n s a r e . W e r e s p o n d b a c k t o t h e m i n a v e r y timely manner.

When you spend, I think it was, four days in meetings back to back to back, you meet a lot of people with regards to local government. S. Fraser: I'd like to change gears here a little bit and move to Port Alberni, if I may, and some of the forest issues surrounding the Alberni Valley. Last year the minister committed to visiting with the workers and the community in Port Alberni, and that has not occurred. I know the minister has made an effort to. I know he's flown over the area, which I think is impor- tant. I also know the minister has met with his staff there, and I know he's talked to the press.

There are some issues. I'd like, first of all, to know if the minister is planning on meeting with the commu- nity. We could set up a community meeting, which was what we anticipated. Hon. R. Coleman: I actually met with a number of people from SOVA, people who have issues in and around the Alberni Valley, here at the Legislature in an extensive meeting within the last month. I've had a couple of other meetings with those groups with re- gards to it. In addition to that, I have had a number of meetings with the mayor over a period of time, and conversations with him.

The reason, when we went to Port Alberni and went to visit my office, we couldn't visit with the Port Alberni council or mayor, who would have set it up, was that there was a schedu ling problem on his part. Twice we tried to get in there and couldn't land be- cause of weather. They accommodated my

schedule and were great about coming down here and sitting in the Hemlock Room in this building, which gave us an opportunity to spend quite an extensive period of time going over their issues. S. Fraser: I'm aware of those meetings, although the community still has an expectation. Many people in the community have been impacted by forest policies in the Alberni Valley.

I appreciate the efforts here, and I appre- ciate the challenges of flying in there, but I'm still hoping and the community is still hoping that they can meet with the minister and he can actually see for himself, visit some of the mills, see some of the closures and some of the challenges that we're seeing all over the valley. Part of that challenge and one of the main things we're seeing…. If the minister hasn't received it, there will be a letter from the Alberni-Clayoquot regional district. This is regarding raw log export and the issues around that and also around the private managed for- est lands.

Now, I understand that's private managed forest lands. But in some cases with Island Timber- lands, that is land that was removed from the tree farm licence — that's TFL 44 — back in 2004. I'm going to touch on a few things. I've got a letter that was from the then minister — that was Minister de Jong — and it was to Craig Neeser. This is regarding the transfer of the land. I know the minister must be aware; he's probably seen the documentation. The minister of the day was advised not to release those lands from TFL 44 — 70,000 hectares.

One of the reasons stated was that it would be to the detriment of the community and the workers there. I think that is one of the reasons the min- ister needs to go and talk to the community. [1450] But the question is…. At th is point in time, the land that was removed…. The benefits cease to go to the community, and we've seen an impact with workers, and we've seen compensation issues. I'm wondering if the minister is willing to ad dress any of those issues, because they occurred specifically because of the ac- tions of this government in 2004 against their own staff's advice.

6846 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2007 Hon. R. Coleman: I guess the best way to answer the member's question is that obviously I am inter- ested, otherwise I wouldn 't have commissioned the report on the Alberni forest sector review that was asked for by the community, which is a little overdue, frankly. I expected it by the end of last month.

I would expect that I will see it shortly, and that will obviously give us feedback with regards to all the activities in the Alberni Valley, including issues around where the logs are coming from that may go into mills, whether they come from places like Tahsis or the Char- l o t t e s , a s w e l l a s c o m i n g from the valley, and all of those issues that will come back and forth. I expect to have that s oon. When I get that, I will obviously release the report, and then I would engage with the community at that time. S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that.

Can the minister explain why the terms of reference for that Alberni Valley industrial review did not specifically include the removal of the 70,000 hectares, which was requested by the community? Hon. R. Coleman: Just like with the log export re- view, quite frankly, I don't believe in fettering the work that people are going to do — to come back and sort of put any bias into their discussion. They have the ability within that report to look at all the aspects that affect the Alberni Valley, and they'll come back with com- ments with regards to what they think is relevant.

There's no intention of government to go back on what happened with the private lands back in 2004. But they can obviously tell us what they feel happened and how things are working, and that's the whole idea. The whole idea, I guess, is to look going forward. I think everybody recognizes that the forest sector is shrinking, including the Leader of the Opposition, who, actually, even in today's Times Colonist has recognized that there are changes in the forest sector and on the coast — that there are a lot of difficulties. It's probably the biggest challenge that faces this min- ister.

I think probably over the last two decades the coast has continuously posed challenges for the ministry to see what we can do to try and get an environment out there that works. Government can't actually go run the busi- ness, cut the log, decide where the fibre is, what product is going to be cut, where it's going to be shipped, what mar- kets want to buy it, at what price — all of those things. Government will do what it can do, given the re- port and what have you. But I'm sure there will also be within the report issues in and around communities and other issues in and around the forest sector. [1455] S.

Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that, although I'm not suggesting that we turn back the clock. Deci- sions made in 2004, however, had dire effects on the industry and on the workers in Port Alberni, and that is the issue. The 70,000 hectares taken out of TFL 44 still have a devastating effect today in the Alberni Valley. That is what the minister would have heard if he had travelled there and heard from the peop le in the valley. That's still the key issue, and it was not made part of the mandate of the industrial review.

With that glaring gap, without addressing that is- sue and reviewing it, there's a fundamental piece of the puzzle that will not be a ddressed through the indus- trial review. The community and the workers will be suffering for that. So will the minister commit today to visiting the community and addressing and looking at the issue of that land removal from TFL 44? Hon. R. Coleman: When I get the report, I will release it, and then I will engage wi th the community.

If that means I can get to the community to sit down and talk to them about what's contained in the report and what they want to talk about going forward, we'll do that. However, we must recognize that the timing for that will be substantially past the end of May, because we're here until the end of May. I hope to get the report in the next two weeks. While we're here, the member will probably get an opportunity to see it. As soon as I get it and I've read it, I'll release it. I'll also release it to the community locally so they can start giving me input.

I f i n t h e m o n t h o f J u n e o r e a r l y J u l y w e h a v e t h e opportunity, we'll go to Port Alberni and sit down with local government and community groups to discuss the report and see what can happen going forward. But I can't today commit to a specific date to the member, simply because I have actually seen my

schedule going forward, and it's pretty chock-a-block at the moment. I would anticipate that it'll be one of those things where we'll try and block it in long enough in advance so we can let people know that that date is possible and then try and get there on that particular date. S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that.

I appreci- ate the time difficulties in scheduling, and I appreciate the efforts he will make in June or July to visit the c o m m u n i t y a n d a l s o t o h a v e t h a t r e p o r t m a d e i n a timely way to the community so that they have a chance to review it prior to his visit, if that's able to be scheduled. I appreciate that. One last thing for this moment. The minister did have a chance to fly over the region. I'm not sure if your staff was there. Did the minister have a chance to see the devastation in the Beaufort Range that's hap- pening on private managed forest land and its forest activities?

It's a scale which I have never seen before, and it's of major concern to the entire Alberni Valley. Hon. R. Coleman: I have flown over the area, and I don't want to go down the road of having a debate about what is devastation and what isn't. There is re- forestation taking place on th ose particular lands. As I understand it, there are setbacks, etc., being followed. Because it's private lands, it's under the purview of the Minister of Agriculture and Lands under the pri- vate forest lands management. I'm not involved in that side of that.

Hopefully, the member will canvass some of that with the Minister of Agriculture during his

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2007 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6847 estimates if he gets the opportunity to do so. Of course, the lands are actually under federal statute, not under provincial statute. [1500] C. Trevena: I would like to go back to the release of lands. As the minister obviously knows, there is a cur- rent release of lands from TFLs. If the minister knew, as he has indicated, that there have been problems with the previous release of land s, I wondered why he al- lowed the current release of Crown lands, particularly from TFL 6 to Western Forest Products. Hon. R.

Coleman: Basically, first nations were con- sulted on this decision, an d I considered interests con- cerned and raised and other factors before making the decision. Deleting the private lands from these TFLs on the coast is one of the series of steps government is making in an effort to revitalize the coast forest sector, quite frankly. The province is working with the forest sector on the coast to identify those opportunities. The deletion of private lands will allow Western Forest Products more flexibility in restructuring its coastal operations.

Now, I don't want to get into the financial strengths and weaknesses of any individual company with regards to things, but I do know that it certainly is an important piece in that company's mind — and frankly, for their stability long term — to be able to serve the communities on the coast. C. Trevena: I'd like to ask whether the minister received any briefing notes about this transfer. Hon. R. Coleman: Yeah, I did. I had briefings from my staff. I had briefing notes, and the briefing notes actually recommended this. C. Trevena: Would the minister be in a position to table a copy of those briefing notes? Hon. R.

Coleman: We don't have it here, and I would suggest that the member might just want to file an FOI request. There are hundreds of briefing notes from the ministry, and to be specific about a specific one would be difficult. So if the member wants to make the request, we will certainly make sure it goes through the proper process. Sometimes there are confidentiality issues with regards to a note, and sometimes there is a commercial interest that has to be protected, so it has to go through a lens before it would be released. C.

Trevena: I wondered, then, on a specific in the briefing note, whether it included any reference to compensation to the Crown for the transfer of lands. Hon. R. Coleman: No. C. Trevena: I'd like to pick up on a statement that the minister made very categorically in talking, ini- tially, about the transfer of the land in TFL 6, which is that first nations were consulted. The first nations themselves were trying fo r consultation. They were informed in August of 2005 of the possible removal of the land which is in their hereditary area — the Kwakiutl band — and received various letters back and forth.

Then there was one meeting. I would like to ask the minister if this one meeting is what qualified as the consultation with the first nations. [1505] Hon. R. Coleman: I don't know if I can answer the member's question with regards to the number. I mean, I don't have that here, and obviously, I don't do those meetings, but the Kwakiutl an d a number of other first nations were definitely consulted. A lot of correspondence and consultation went back and forth with regards to this particular deletion.

As we came through the process, one of the things they wanted to see done was the protection of some ungulate range, which was done. In addition to that, they wanted access continuing for first nations using neighbouring Crown lands and theirs for fishing, hunting and cultural pur- poses. Those accommodations were met. The ministry actually consulted with 23 first nations organizations with regards to this decision-making process. C. Trevena: One of the issues is meaningful consul- tation and accommodation.

Wh ile the ministry wrote a number of letters to the Kwakiutl, whose land claim this is, they did only have one meeting. I'd again like to ask the minister: a number of times the band asked for assistance in consultation but re- ceived none and were told that there would not be assis- tance. In fact, Chief Councillor Verna Chartrand said, if I may just quote into the record a letter: "They'll not con- sider paying for our recent expenses in doing so, let alone consider sharing in the huge and consistent profit f r o m h a r v e s t i n g .

T o e x p e c t t h a t w e w o u l d h a v e t h e technical capacity to resp ond appropriately without adequate resources is unfair, unreasonable and disre- spectful to us, whose life and livelihood are closely tied to the land and surrounding forest environment." Again, I'd like to ask the minister: in the definition of meaningful consultation, is meaningful consultation a number of letters between officials within the Minis- try of Forests and just one sit-down meeting? [1510] Hon. R.

Coleman: When we do consultation work with the Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Recon- ciliation and the Attorney General's department with regards to what is considered meaningful or adequate consultation…. We have been doing this for a long time. It's an evolution that takes place in what is con- sultation or accommodation. I have every confidence that my folks — as we came through this, because I did ask the question about consultation — did what would have been required to meet the test of consultation with regards to this par- ticular transaction.

We were not advised in our meet- ings or discussions with ei ther of the other two minis- tries that we were not correct in that particular matter.

6848 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2007 C. Trevena: I would like to ask whether the minis- ter is familiar with the Supreme Court of British Co- lumbia case of the Hupacasath First Nation against British Columbia. Hon. R. Coleman: I am familiar with the case, but I am not going to comment on it. C. Trevena: In the case it was found that the Crown hadn't had meaningful consultation with the Hu- pacasath First Nation when lands were taken out of their territory.

In fact, the conclusion was that the Ministry of Forests decision to remove lands from TFL 44 gave rise to a duty on the provincial Crown to consult, and the Crown failed to meet that duty — which is why I'm ask- ing the questions. The Crown was found negligent in that case. That is why I am asking the questions about TFL 6 and the apparent lack of consultation in that case. Do you feel that there was really enough consulta- tion when we are talking about a series of letters and one meeting — that these lands were taken out of first nations possible treaty areas? Hon. R.

Coleman: There is an evolving body of opinion in court cases, obviously, on the land base in British Columbia, and there has been for many years. We learn from those. We ad just our processes and our practices. Quite frankly, I was advised that we had done adequate consultation on this particular removal. C. Trevena: The concerns that the Kwakiutl First Nation have are very straightforward.

No matter what the ministries feel, that they have met a certain test, the first nations feel that their rights have been extin- guished by what has been happening — that by remov- ing the lands and putting th em into fee simple, they have lost their aboriginal right and title. That is why I bring this back to the fact of: is a series of letters and one meeting adequate consultation for first nations on such a vital issue for this first nation? [1515] Hon. R. Coleman: Just a clarification, Member.

These were always private lands, so the change here was the removal of the forest operations side of it from the private lands, from the TFL. They were always pri- vate lands; they were always fee simple private lands with regards to the ownership of the lands. I should say to the member that — and I will repeat it again — when I made the decision, when the deci- sion came across my desk, I asked the question of whether proper consultation had been done. The dis- cussion was in and around our experience and around everything that we knew at the time.

Also, we had had the Attorney General and, obviously, the Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation in the mix with us as we came through this. The answer was that we felt we had completed what the requirement was for consultation on this file. The member may have a letter from somebody that disputes that. There are other avenues with regards to that dispute. But we feel that we did the consultation according to the guidelines and according to what needed to be done. As a minister I asked if we had done the consulta- tion.

I was told that we had consulted with 23 first na- tions with regards to this removal of the TFL and, frankly, got the answer that our consultations were complete. Otherwise, I wouldn't have made the decision. C. Trevena: The ministry staff wrote to the chief councillor, and the ministry staff said in a letter to the chief councillor: "The law is unclear as to whether and to what extent there is a legal requirement for the Crown to consult with the Kwakiutl on private lands that are not subject to an agreement under the Forest A c t .

S h o u l d t h e m i n i s t e r d e c i d e t o r e m o v e t h e W F P lands from TFL 6, there likel y would no longer be an impetus for the Crown to consult on forestry opera- tions on those lands." If the ministry staff were unclear in a letter to the chief councillor, why did the minister not take the ac- tion to make sure himself — rather than just talking to the other ministries — that there was full consultation and talk, as a minister, to the chief councillor? Hon. R. Coleman: There was consultation. I was advised that consultation was adequate and complete. C.

Trevena: Just one last attempt to see if we can move on beyond this. Th e Kwakiutl are very con- cerned. I'm sure the minister also knows that they have gone to the Premier about this case. They are very con- cerned and have written to the Premier because of the new relationship and because they actually believe that there might be some substanc e in the new relationship.

They are hopeful that there will be some response and that this decision will be put in abeyance. [1520] If I might quote again from the letter that went from the chief councillor to the Premier recently, she says: "It appears the provincial Crown is acting as though the Douglas treaty is a matter of no consequence. Our treaty rights are protected under

section 35 and should be honoured by the Crown. "To hold one meeting and to fail to provide any fur- ther follow-up until the decision is a complete failure of consultation.

It has been recognized by the Supreme Court and Court of Appeal that the failure to consult invalidates a decision, as the decision-maker has no jurisdiction." While the minister may disagree with this, I would ask, while there is a controversy over this, while this has gone to the Premier and while there is still a stated belief and a stated commitment to the new relation- ship, that this minister put this decision to release the lands from TFL 6 into abeyance until discussions can take place between the Kwak iutl First Nation and the minister and, one would hope, with the Premier. Hon. R.

Coleman: We continue to have dialogue with this first nation on a number of issues, broader than just this removal from the TFL, which are caught up in maybe some other discussions. There are still

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2007 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6849 discussions going on, on some issues. I'll make it clear to the member, though, that the decision is made. The decision was announced, and it is not the intention of the minister to go back on the decision. J. Horgan: It's a pleasure to rise and participate in the estimates for the Ministry of Forests and Range. I'd like to continue discussion of the removal of lands from TFLs on Vancouver Island.

I'd like to come down to my neighbourhood, Malahat–Juan de Fuca, and, in particular, lands removed in and around Jor- dan River, Port Renfrew and the district of Sooke. Could the minister advise me of the amount of land that was removed and what the public policy motiva- tion was at the time? Hon. R. Coleman: In the Jordan River area almost 12,000 hectares will come from tree farm licence 25. J. Horgan: I thank the minister for that response.

The last time significant tracts of land were removed from TFLs, there was a briefing note prepared — I have it here — for the minister at that time, advising that there would be considerations when deletions were proposed. Some of those included equitable treatment of similarly situated private lands and fair market evaluations of both sides of the transaction — the dele- tion itself and the consideration. Could the minister advise if there were market evaluations done of the properties in and around Jordan River? [1525] Hon. R. Coleman: We didn't do a market evalua- tion of the lands.

We did do an evaluation of the infra- structure that the governme nt would be receiving or inheriting as a result of any of the transitions. J. Horgan: What's the benefit to the people in my community, particularly those who were working in the forest sector in Jordan River and the district of Sooke? What's the benefit to them of this removal? Hon. R. Coleman: I don't think any effect, quite frankly. This isn't a removal from forest production, and there are no mills in that pa rticular area.

There may be some logging going on, and those people will still be employed in logging or in transport or whatever the case may be with regard to the jobs in the bush. J. Horgan: If that's the case, then, what valuation of infrastructure was the minist er referring to in his pre- vious answer? Hon. R. Coleman: As part of the evaluation when we do this, we examine the public accesses, including features for the public to have access to Crown lands.

T h i s i s f o r a n u m b e r o f r e a s o n s , b o t h f r o m a r e c r e a - tional standpoint and from a future forest aspect, so that there's access onto other portions of land if they can be affected. We do receive road accesses and setbacks along those roads that we take ba ck into the public, so the public has control and ownership of those roads, when we do this. I don't have the evaluation of the infrastruc- ture in any particular area of this thing, but I'll be happy to get it for the member. J. Horgan: I'll look forward to that information from the minister.

Was there a cash transfer of any kind involving this arrangement with Western Forest Products? Hon. R. Coleman: No. J. Horgan: I understand that the minister doesn't have the details and that th ey'll be forthcoming, but why do an evaluation? I don't understand. People in my community are concerned.

The minister will know that TimberWest is a large private land owner in my constituency and that Western Forest Products has now become, through this policy initiative, a large pri- vate land holder in my constituency. [1530] Development without being part of the official community plans of the va rious communities up and down the west coast of the Island is of primary con- cern. If there was an evalua tion of assets returning to the Crown, I'm wondering what Western Forest Products was getting in return, beyond the land. What, if any, restrictions are there on the use of that land? Hon. R.

Coleman: Just to answer the member's first question, because we did find a number: the conserva- tive value of the roads that we received in all of the TFLs that we took back, that we got back into the pub- lic hands for the access to the public, is $2.5 million. No cash changed hands. We received those, basically…. Interjection. Hon. R. Coleman: That's across them all. I will en- deavour to get the ones separately, though, for the member's issue. The Private Managed Forest Land Act will apply to these lands unless their status changes — e.g., they're developed for a higher and better use.

Other legisla- tion, such as the federal Fisheries Act, Heritage Con- servation Act and Drinking Water Protection Act will apply to the lands, despite its future use. In addition to that, there are no log exports from the affected lands for three years, even if the land is resold to a third party. There's an agreement to wo rk with the Ministry of Environment on protecting ungulate and winter ranges.

They have to maintain current ISO and/or CSA sustainable forest management certification; the con- tinued recreational access to the removed lands for the public; and continued access for first nations using neighbouring Crown lands for hunting, fishing and cultural purposes.

6850 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2007 J. Horgan: People in Malahat–Juan de Fuca are quite concerned about access to private lands for recreational purposes now. I have ongoing discussions with TimberWest with respect to access to their private lands off Renfrew Road, just north of Shawnigan Lake, where hundreds and hundreds of recreational users enter onto their lands for hunting, fishing and other recreational purposes.

The concern in Sooke and environs as a result of this deletion is that rather than providing access to these lands, through the government decision those lands are now alienated from public use. Following on the responses that I heard the minister give to my col- league from North Coast, I'm wondering: if the dele- tion has resulted in fee simple private lands, has there been a net increase in and around TFL 25 of fee simple private lands? Or were thes e the entire amount that was put back in when the arrangement was struck some time ago — some decades ago? [1535] Hon. R.

Coleman: Just for clarification, these were always fee simple private lands. There was no change to the title of the private land. It was fee simple private land. They were within a TFL, which is what the re- moval was. In the agreemen t with the company, basi- cally, current access is being maintained for public use on the private lands.

I don't know about the particular road that the member is specifically talking about, but I have come across a couple of times when I've had calls about somebody putting up a gate on a road on private lands, and saying: "They're restricting our access." In the two times I've had to deal with that, when I've made inquiries, I've fo und that the reason was for public safety issues because there was an active log- ging operation going on.

They wanted to make sure they didn't have anybody coming up and down the road because of the public safety aspect of not wanting anybody to get hurt by ongoing industrial operations. I don't know about the member's particular road, but I'm happy to look into that one. [S. Hawkins in the chair.] J. Horgan: The last thing the minister wants to do is to wade into the Renfrew Road issue. I was using that as an illustration rather than a specific. So put that one away, and we'll worry about that some time in the future. With respect to Jordan River and the Sooke district, the concern there is….

I guess I'll phrase the question this way. So 12,000 hectares came out. Was it 12,000 hec- tares that went in when the TFL was created initially? Hon. R. Coleman: W e w o u l d h a v e t o d o s o m e r e - search back on the history of these lands because it goes back decades. We'll get that information for the member. J. Horgan: I appreciate that. Again, speaking on behalf of my constituents, thei r concern is that this was productive forest lands benefiting all people in the community. It was considered to be public lands.

An agreement was struck, not with Western Forest Products but various iterations of that back to the '40s and '50s. The concern in the community is that bringing the land out now for what they perceive to be develop- ment purposes — not to continue on as forest lands — dramatically alters the landscape in the community. It will affect the official community plans. I'm going to specifically ask the question: when the removal of the deletion took place, were his staff aware that the development restrictions were one living unit per 300 hectares?

Or were they under the impression that it was more units for fewer hectares? A. Dix: While the minister is waiting to answer the question, I ask leave to make an introduction. Leave granted. Introductions by Members A. Dix: I wanted to introduce to the House 20 stu- dents from grades 8 to 12 from West Coast Alternate School in my riding of Vancouver-Kingsway. Just for their information, we're debating the budget of the Ministry of Forests right now. The Minis- ter of Forests is over there, and we on the opposition side will be asking the Minister of Forests questions over the next little while.

Thank you very much, and I ask the House to make our guests welcome. Debate Continued Hon. R. Coleman: The local zoning is the local zon- ing. Frankly, it's not our responsibility to deal with that in the Ministry of Forests. J. Horgan: Well, I appreciate that, and I'm well aware of that. Since the decision was made for the dele- tion, or the deletion was made public, a review of zon- ing in the area was undertaken by the electoral area representative and people in the community.

I would suggest that when the decision was made, Western Forest Products was under the assumption that the minimum lot size was 2.5 hectares. Since then it has been learned that there was an error at the capital regional district, and now the mini- mum lot size is 300 hectares, which kind of puts a dent in your development plan if you're building condos. The question I have for the minister is: when you were devising the deletion, the public response I heard was that it was to assist Western Forest Products ad- dress their debt management challenges and build for the future.

Does this zoning issue materially alter that, in your view? [1540] Hon. R. Coleman: I don't think that it does, and it's really not my problem. The deletion was done to take it out of the TFL. There are 12,000 hectares here.

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2007 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6851 I am familiar with the area of Jordan River. I would think that a couple of hundred hectares of develop- ment in that area would be a substantial development. My understanding is that these will still be private managed forest lands. They will meet the standards for CSA and standards for how they would do their prac- tices. They're obviously going to take care of the ungu- late range and the setbacks and all of that stuff.

I would think that they're going to manage this forest, as they've managed it in the past, for the long- term turnover of that land fo r, obviously, the next crop after this crop. And they will do it in a manner that is sustainable. From the development side, that's not a considera- tion. Frankly, it's really not my due diligence that would have been required to know what might happen with the land afterwards. That would be the com- pany's. It's really, I guess, not my problem. J. Horgan: Well, it has certainly now become a problem for Western Forest Products.

I appreciate that the minister was undertaking his responsibilities as he saw them, and Western Forest Products will have to deal with that. I am pleased with the last response, and it gives me some comfort that I can re turn to Sooke and Jordan River and advise the people there that it's the minister's and the government of British Columbia's view that this land will remain as productive forest land, and it won't be developed hodgepodge to meet debt requirements by selling real estate. I thank the minister for that, and I'm sure it gives some comfort to my community. B.

Simpson: With the previous comment, it's a nice segue into where I want to go with this. The minister has mentioned a number of times, not only in this venue today but in question period and other venues, that these are private lands. They always have been private lands. I am wondering if the minister could share with us his understanding of the original arrangement for tree farm licences on Vancouver Is- land, of which these private lands were part. [1545] Hon. R. Coleman: N o n e o f u s w e r e h e r e t h e n . I t was the 1940s and 1950s.

My understanding of the in- clusion of the private lands in the 1940s and 1950s was that by agreeing to includ e their lands within TFLs, companies at that time were provided with some addi- tional rights to some public timber. We should also recognize that at no time, whether they're in or out of a TFL, have they ever paid stump- age to the Crown. B. Simpson: The minister is correct. While we weren't there, I'm not quite sure what that has to do with anything.

One thing I've found in this file in par- ticular is if you don't know the history, you don't un- derstand the current conditions and you don't under- stand the way things are and why they are that way. So here's an education. I fi nd it hard to believe that the briefing note to the minister, in the particular case that the minister was involved in, could be much dif- ferent in terms of providing background to this minis- ter than the briefing note that went to the previous Forests Minister back in 2004, where that detailed in- formation was.

The reason for these private lands coming into tree farm licences was because of the E&N Railway land grants. The public at the ti me was very concerned that most of southern Vancouver Island had been given over to private interests. So the explicit reason for en- tering into these tree farm licences in the 1940s and 1950s was so they would be managed under public control. That was the explicit reason for these tree farm licences on Vancouver Island.

It was a contract — and I'm sure the minister un- derstands what contracts are all about — between the companies and the Crown, with a presumption of gain to the companies. By bringing private lands in, they got more direct access over Crown land. The deal was that that private land got managed as public land. I find it rather ironic, if not hypocritical, that in the forestry revitalization strategy it states ex- plicitly that this government was going to retain public ownership of our forests and ensure strict environ- mental standards.

If the minister has read the briefing notes or been briefed by his staff, he would know that one of the ma- jor reasons that the companies want these private lands out is to get under the less strict private managed forest lands regulations. In the case of the release from tree farm licence 44, in the court case Brascan, which was buying Weyer- haeuser at the time, made it explicitly clear that they were going to save anywhere from $15 million to $24 million annually simply by getting out from under- neath the code and the upcoming Forest and Range Practices Act.

In the 1990s the government of the day was involved in the protected areas strategy and was involved in the CORE process. There were set-asides, and there were parks. At that time TimberWest came to the government, along with MacMillan Bloedel, and said: "Release our private lands back out again." In a full-blown public consultation called the Perry report, the people spoke with a single voice, particu- larly the people of Port Alberni, and said: "Do not do that. We want those lands managed under the Crown, not as private managed forest lands." It was clear; the consultation was comprehensive.

The government of the day actually paid MacMillan Bloedel $83 million in lieu of releasing the private land. At that time government policy was a recognition of the set-asides and recognition of the valuation of the private lands. If they'd flipped the private lands out, Wayco would not have gotten the cash. Because they couldn't flip the private lands out, Wayco got cash. There was a presumption of compensation. Between 2001 and 2004, Weyerhaeuser again ap- proached the government and the minister of the day

6852 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES W EDNESDAY, APRIL 18, 2007 asking for those private lands to be released. There was no public consultation at this time. [1550] The sale of Weyerhaeuser to Brascan, now Brook- field Asset Management, was explicitly based on the release of the private lands and was valued at a signifi- cant incremental value. Thos e findings, again, are in the court case. As I indicate d, one of the main reasons was to get out from the Crown obligations.

The ministerial advice at the time — and that's why we're asking for the briefing note to the minister this time — delivered to the minister by one of the mem- bers of the minister's staff sitting in the House today, explicitly states that there should be an expectation of compensation. It says that at one level this change is simply a matter of contract. The government and the landowner made a contract decades ago to manage the land as if it were pub- lic. Deletion undoes that contract.

Since the initial contract involved consideration — the award by government to the landowner of timber rights on Crown land — it would seem that the landowner should be able to buy out of that contract by providing appropriate consideration in return. My question to the minister at this juncture is: what was the appropriate consideration in return in the dele- tion of the private lands that the minister undertook? What did the Crown get as a result of those deletions and the breaking of that contract? Hon. R. Coleman: I'm not going to rise to the bait.

Over 60 years ago the maturity of the forest manage- ment was vastly changed over the last 60 years, and its management has improved — professional practices, foresters guided by the Forest Act and sophistication of companies different then than now. This decision was made after consultation with my staff. It's done. It wasn't about us getting compensation. It was about trying to create an environment for an opportunity for a company to have stable investment in the future and to look at some of the highest and best uses of the land. B.

Simpson: I a l w a y s f i n d i t i n t e r e s t i n g t h a t t h e minister goes to help Western Forest Products out on this, given that yesterday he claimed that I think that he only talks to corporations. So here's a question for the minister: what communiti es, outside of the first nations communities, were consulted with the release of the private lands that this minister oversaw? Hon. R. Coleman: We didn't. These are private lands. The decision was made to remove them from the TFL. B. Simpson: Did the minister have direct consulta- tions with Western Forest Products on this transaction? Hon. R. Cole

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0418pm-03
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0418pm 03
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f94cce67b8933faed04e63d7acc5b2355b6c1bd8

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