Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 3B (25th Legislature, 1st Session)

25-1-3b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATI VE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOB A 8:00 o'clo'ck Monday, October 27th, 1958. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of ��. Alexander for an Address to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor in answer to his Speech at the Opening of the Session. and the proposed motion of the Honourable the First Minister in amendment thereto •••• MR. D.L. CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opposition) (Lakeside): Hear, Hear! MR.

SPEAKER: as follows: That the Motion be amended by adding at the end, thereof, the following words: t.hat we regret that with regard to agriculture, Manitoba's basic industry, the Speech from the Throne refers to one matter only, but ignores the many other immediate and serious problems facing the farmers of our Province. The Honourable the Leader of the C. C.F. MR. L. STIN SON (Leader of the C.C.F.) (Osborne) : Mr.

Speaker, at the outset I wish to offer the traditional congratu lations to you, Sir, upon your election to the high office of Speaker of this Assembly. vve have elected you because we believe in your integrity and in your fair-mi ndedne ss, and we trust that you will be Speaker of this House for many years to come. I have in mind, Sir, the idea of the permanent Speaker. I wish also to congratulate the Mover and Seconder of the Address and Reply. The Hover is a young man and a new member and he made an excellent impression. The Seconder is well known to us and it was good, once again, to hear his oratory.

I \vish, also, to congratulate the Honourable the First Minister on two counts •• first of all on assuming the Premiership of the Province and secondly, upon acquiring a charming wife. I congratulate him upon his good judgment and his good luck. I wish also to con-. gratulate the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition upon his long term of service in this House. He must have established some sort of record by now because he was elected in 1922 and now this is 1958, so he is the senior member of this House by a good deal.

I may say that, although we have had our political differ ences, that we have mutual respect, I hope, I certainly respect him, and I hope that we may continue to be pers onal friend s. Now, Mr. Speaker, we have 27 new members in this House and I can't speak of them all individually, but I do v:ish to draw attention to the fact that one of the new members has esta blished a record because he is only 22 years of age. I refer to the Honourable Member for Brokenhead who will not be 23 until the month of December of this year.

I have one word of advice to offer to this fre shman class of '58 , and that is this, try to combine public condemnation with pr ivate generosity. We niay have harsh words spoken in this Chamber but I trust that all of us will be friends out in the corridor. I might also pass on a little bit of advice to the newcomers 1

with res pect to the Press. You know they are pretty important people around here and one must attempt to maintain friendly relations with the Press, but let me offer one V'ord of warning - "never discuss anything i;Jith a reporter except the weather, even that could prove to be a dangerous topic." It may surprise you, Sir, to learn that there are only two of us from the freshman group of 1945 -- the Honourable Member for Assiniboia who is unavoidably absent tonight, and myself. There are seven members senior to us. Five honourable members who sit to my right -- you, yourself, Mr.

Speaker, and the Honour able the Minister of Agriculture, so the casualty rate here is pretty high. At the last sitting we heard from the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. It was a sad tale -- full of lamentation, if not of recrimination. vv'e might give it a title, "Campbell 's Lament11• Full of grief and regret. Just as an aside, I would like to ask, 11V�hy do the Liberals in this House always quote eminent Co nservatives?" For example, the Right Honourable Arthur Meighen and Sir Winston Churchill -- but all they need to do is quote some of the resounding phrases of the late R.B.

Bennett and it would be complete. Didn't L1oyd George or Sir Wilfred Laurier ever say anything worth quoting? Now the Leader of the Opposition fought the election all over again. He said that the Liberals lost the election because he was a poor publicist to use his 0\1\'Il terms. vvell, Sir, that was not the reason at all. He is quite experienced at stating a case and I think did a good job of leading his Party. It was a difficult assignment. The real reason for the defeat of the Campbell government was that it did not lead. \Vhenever anything progressive was done, it was done under pressure.

It was ah·.rays lagging behind public opinion, and whenever a step for;,rard was taken, it was taken reluctantly. The former Government had one solid achievement to its credit -- that was rural electrification. But you can't trade forever on one accomplishment. They won one or two elections upon that issue but it got stale -- people got accustomed to having electricity. Some credit must be given as well for re-distribution by Comrnission, but this came about largely because of pressure. The Conservatives were both elated and dis appointed by the results of the election.

Elated because after wandering in the wilderness for more than 40 years they emerged from that sojourn and that tribulation and became the largest group in this House. They were disappointed because they failed to hold the vote that John Diefenbaker gained for the Conserva tive Party in the March 31st Election. Their vote slipped from 212, 000 in this province to 117,000. It went down fro m 57% to 41 %. As for the C. C.F., we went up from 5 seats to 11, and we are not complaining. The new Leader of the Opposition has moved a 11"\tl'ant of Co'nfi dence11 amendment in the new government.

It is a phony amendment designed solely for partisan advantage. It was no doubt thought by them at the time to be a clever manoeuvre. They would kill more than one bird with this stone. It would appeal to !vlanitoba1s hard-pressed farmers and it v•rould embarrass both the Government and the C. C.F. But it really isn' t a clever manoeuvre at all. 2

It is a narrow, confined sort of thing that will not fool the farmers or anyonP. else. Surely Tom Kent can do better than this. First .of all, Sir," look at the faulty reasoning behind this amendment . My Honourable Friend, the Leader of the Opposition, said that the main problems facing the farmers are Federal in character. That is quite true. Matters of trade and tariffs are under federal jurisdiction. The plight of the farmer due to the price cost squeeze must be pl-'lced on the door -step of the Federal authorities.

The lv�over of' the aniendment knew thi� and asse-rted it to be the truth �n hi� speech, but then he went on to move "Want of' Con-�"idence" on this one point alone. So now we find the Liberals chiding the Tories for failing to do the things that they have always claimed were a Federal responsibility. Wh.::�t did the ••• •• •••• ? I wish to ask this question now, Sir, - what did the Campbell government ever do for the farmer s anyway?

They always claimed to be a farmers' party, but the nearest they ever came to helping the farmer was to form a committee in 1957, that committee draf ted some recommendations urging the Federal Government to take· some action to aleviate the depression among the farm people. Then that report sat on the desk of the then Minister of Agriculture from March until after the 'June Election of th at year. He didn't want to bother Jimmy Gardiner with this report during the course of the election campaign. Then afterwards Jimmy· wasn1 t there to be bothered. And so he had to send it to P�i�me Minister John Diefenbaker.

And what did the T cries at Ottawa do with it? Well, that is another sad tale. The Want of Con-f'idence, Sir, should be moved at Ottawa. · In the circumstances, a vote for this amendment would mean that we favour putting the Campbell government back into office. This we cannot possibly consider. The Roblin governments may turn out to be bad enough. W� know how bad the Liherals can be. Mr. Speaker, the Liberals were beaten in this pr ovince just four months ago. They were in off ice for a long time under one name or another.

During the course of the election campaign, there was a debate as to whether it was ten years or thirty- six or fort y -two. If you begin with the name, Bracken , then it would be thirty-s ix and then it would continue down through the regime of Garson and to be followed later by my honourable fr iend who is now the Leader of the Opposition. But ·even if you take only the period of the last Premier, it's a period of ten years and they had plenty of time to carry out these ideas during thC�.t Period. They have had their chance, now they are out. TheY h.�ve passed from the scene of action in lvlanitoba.

They have passed from the center of the stage a lthough they don't seem to realize that fact yet.. They haven't found out about it yet. They're dead but they won't lie down. The Liberals thought they were invincible._ They thought they ruled by Divine Right and would go on forever. We ll , Sir, they were clobbered in the last election, and now they are a splinter group representing only one segment of the population and not rePr esenting it very well.

We believe, Sir, that it is our job in this group to promote our own program which is gaining popular favour. vve were elected on a certain platform and that is what we are here to fight for . 3

Vie have parties plans. elected do. done this time and again in this House. The t�ro old have pairl tribute to our pro�ram by stealinc many of it' s But there are still plenty for tis to discuss. We were on a certain program and that is the job that we have to And so it is my intention to move a sub-amendm ent which will contain some of the proposals which we deem of urgent importance. First of all, lvir. Speaker, we believe that this province should enRct farm security legislation.

If the farm prices con tinues, and there would seem to be no abatement of it, this kind of prote ction will be badly needed. fur some years now, the farmer has suffered from uncertain income on the one hand and fixed obligations on the other. Some of these fixed obligations are harsh and difficult for the farmer. There are harsh mortgage contr acts which call for payments to be m8de regardless of crop and market conditions and the farmers' ability to pay. Being aware of this situation, we have put forward more than once pro posals calling for farm security legislation.

These proposals have been voted down by both of the old parties. All that .tvlanitoba has along this line is the outdated Debt ·Adjustment Act of 1932 which is inadequate: & vague. It makes no provision for security for the farmer in case of crop failure; it provides no guarantee that the farmer cannot be deprived of his home quarter; and it pr ovides no machinery for effective media tion of disputes. The C. c. F. believes that the farmer should have protection of this kind.

Secondly, we think this government should urge upon the Federal Government the need for adequdte legislation to provide the farmer with a fair share of the national income. This point, Sir, is entirely a Federal responsibility but there is an onus on this House andupon this government to press for parity prices and to do all that is within our power to see that the farmer gets a sq uAre deal. Other members of our group will develop this point later. Then, Sir, I do believe that we need better labor legislation.

Labor legislation in Manitoba is a disgrace. we fall behind rriost of the other pr ovinces in providing security for the working man. Now what are these aspects that need attention? One is quite clearly wages. vannipeg is the fourth l0rgest city of Canada but in terms o-�" wages pAid to employees, we are twentieth on the list. The present Manitoba's minimum wage is 60 cents per hour for men and 58 cents per hour for women. Nobody can live decently on wages of this kind. We believe thAt the minimum wage should be at least a dollar an hour. V�nitoba's Vacations with Pay Ac t lags behind.

Almost all civilized countries now provide for two weeks holidy v.rith pay after one year, but not the Province of 1-'lanitoba. It always astonished me that the former government refused to make this small concession because, after all, it is something that is very common across the civilized world. We have presented bills and resolutions on this point year after year, to have them voted down by the government and usually, as well, by the former opposi tion. Our �orkmen's Compensation legislation is deficient as well. 4

Provision for compensation to dependents, for example, is lower than in the neighbouring provinces. Payments to widows and children in case of death of a workman, are lower in Manitoba than anywhere west of Quebec. These are only some of the labor issues on which hanitoba lags behind. There are many others about which we could speak. Now, Sir, I wish to turn to a matter that we consider to be of urgent importance, and that is the question of the distribu tion of natural gas.

It would appear from press reports that the new government is not going to require the rvvinnipeg and Central Gas Company to guarantee in writing it's rates or the extent of it's service over the next five years. This is surp ris ing, to say the least, in viev.r of the recommendations of the commission.

I would draw attention, first of all, to what the commission said on page 65: "Commission recommends further that if sub stantial evidence of intent is submitted within the period specified, the company or companies should be allowed a further period ending not later than December 31, 1958 to complete ar rangements and to give to the Government of Manitoba satisfactory undertakings to meet the conditions specified above". Look at the key words of that statement.

First of all, the words "sub stantial evidence of intent 11 and then the words "satisfactory undertakings" - I would think that written guarantees from the company would be necessary. Now I am not going to bore the House with telling the story of the gas muddle, or of giving you the statistics in connection with rates and all of the material in the report, except to say this, that the company is now agreed to meet the requirements of the repor t in selling gas at 90 cents per thousand cubic feet.

And. yet, their spokesmen, appearing before the commission on July the 15th, said this - you will find it on page 24 - "T he company is continually ru nning studies on this thing. $1.01 or $1. 02 is a mathematical thing backed up by figures. They have run studies on rates varying higher and lower. They have gone down as low as 90 cents. They found the company cannot live on 90 cents. It can't finance and, if it can't finance, it can't expand.

And if it can't expand, the customers can't get service." Vv"ell, that was a considered statement of policy by the v'iinnipeg and Central Gas Company and yet now we find that they are pre pared to meet the ultimatum of the commission and sell gas in greater Vd.nnipeg at the figure of 90 cents. V;hy have they done this? I think the answer is obvious. This company wants, first of all, to gain a strangle hold on the gas business and then later it will want higher rates.

Anyone familiar ·with the tactics of the old vvinnipeg Electric Company will naturally be somewhat suspicious of the antics of this offspring company. The House, Sir, should be reminded that two other companies were prepared to sell gas at a lower rate than 90 cents. The House, perhaps, should be reminded that in the Province of Saskat chewan under the 3askatchewan Povv·er Corporation, "lrv·here the dis tribution of gas is publicly ovmed, the average rate is about 70 cents. Brandon and Portage have more favourable rates than Vvinnipeg. VJhy should vdnnipeg users pay more? 5

The most surprising thing about the report or the commission was that they were prepared to give the \v'innipeg and Central a second chl'lnce. They we're prepared to reward this company for making a mess of the whole gas business. They were prepared to allow this company the unprecedented opportunity of establishing a monopoly in the distribution or natural gas. And we believe, Sir, that a monoooly of this kind should be publicly ovmed. That when we have a resource of this kind, when we have a utility or this kind, it should be on the basis of public ownership and not be allowed to remain in private hands.

The advantages of public ownership, particularly in the field of financing such an enter prise, are obvious and so, Sir, we in this Party stand firmly by the principle of public ownership. Now, I want to go on to say something about hospitalization. Throughout the years, the C. C • F. has vigorously championed the fight for a national scheme of health insurance. As in all areas or welfare, Liberals and Conservatives are compelled to accept our ideas but they accept them reluctantly.

Now we have another new idea - that our hospital plan should be changed to bring it more in line with the principle of ability to pay. Even the Federal Government in it's legislation recognizes this principle. They recognize the principle of participation with regard for ability to pay. Half of the national hospitalization plan, some ;[n2,ooo,ooo.oo, will be financed on this basis. The Manitoba Government has insisted that equ al individual ·payments be made on a premium basis. Vv'e say that this is unfair.

It means that a man earning $50,000. 00 a year pays exactly the same amount as the man earning :$3,000. 00 a year for the same coverage. We say that all risks should be pooled. It is the simple but profound principle that the strong should help the weak. In many instances, the Manitoba Hospital Services Plan is grossly unfair. Take for example the case of a farmer and his wife with three children at home more than 19 years of age. This is a family unit. They are operating the farm and the three young people are there with their parents. That farmer must pay a total of $123. 00 for hospital coverage.

Or take the example of a man andwife with two children at university, the children being over 19 and dependent upon the parents, in that case, the total cost would be $98.40, almost $100. 00 a year for hospitalization. The premiums are outrageously high, including the regular amount of ;�24. 60 for single persons, $49. 20 for man and wife. Therefore, we propose a new method of hospital insurance - an annual registration fee with a nominal charge. We have sug gested an annual registration fee of :$5.00 for a single person and �10. 00 for families, that is to say, we advocate the aboli tion of premiums.

It is because of' our regard for the family and as we have said, because of our belief that all people have the right to the greatest possible meas·ure of security and happiness, that we make this far-reaching propos al. Of course, the question arises, where is the money to come from? This question used to be tossed around this Chamber a great deal more than in recent years. But I suppose that in 6

this instance that the.question will be asked. Under the present government's plan the provincial share of costs \·dll be between eleven and twelve million dollars. The Liberal- Conservative plan is designed to raise almost all of that in pr emiums, regard less of the ability to pay. Our no-premium hospitalization would raise about two and a half million dollars through.the registra tion fee, which, of course, means that there would be approxi mately nine million dollars left to be raised from other sources.

I suggest that the corporations exploiting our natural res ources should supply a major portion of the money required. At present the Province i.s collecting only about two percent of the total wealth received from our mines, forests and from our oil re sources. In Saskatchewan, the Government collects about twelve percent. It is strikingly evident that we have not begun to ex tract a fair share of revenue. Moreover; one must remember the pr omises of Prime Minister Diefenbaker, which included a better deal for the Province.

We must put pressure upon the Prime Minister to fulfill his pledges. we would receive something like nineteen million dollars if the proposed 15-15-50 formula were adopted. I have attempted tonight, Sir 1 to present part of our pro gram for the people of Manitoba. We feel under obligation to put forward our ideas and our plans at every opportunity, and we regard this as a suitable time, and a suitable place to speak of these things. v'ie are certain that once the people of Manitoba become fairly familiar with this program, they will give over whelming support to the C.C.F. Therefore, Mr.

Speaker, I wish to move, by way of amendment, seconded by thE!

Honourable Member for Inkster, that all the words after the word "regret", in the first line thereof , be deleted and the following substituted therefor: Failure of the Gover nment; (1) to introduce farm security legis lation; (2) to press the Federal Government for an adequate system of price support for agricultural products based on a fair cost price relationship; (3) to propose better labour legislation, particularly with respect to higher minimum wages, vacations with pay, shorter hours of work, and 'improved workmen's compensation; to inaugurate the public ownership of the distri bution of Natural Gas; to carry forward the pr inciple of socialized medicine, and particularly the failure to pr opose changes in the Manitoba Hospital Services Plan, with a view to adopting a nominal annual registration fee in place of the present

schedule of premiums, thereby establishing a scheme of hospitali zation more in line with the pr inciple of ability to pay; and (6) its failure to secure greater revenue for the Province from corporations exploiting our natural resources. Mr. Speaker read the motion. Ml{. CAMPBELL: Have you had time to consider whether the amendment is in order? I raise the point of order simply because I understand that it's necessary for the amendment to the amend ment to amend the amendment that has already been offered. I think perhaps you'd want to consider that point of ord er. 7

MR. SPEAKER: I would advise the Leader. of the Onposition that it is in accordance with the practices that have been fol lowed in this House for mnny years • . MR. \tv.C. MILLER (Rhineland) : :tvlr. Speaker, on that very point of order, I h�ve before me, citation 207 Boucheyne, Fourth Edition, 207. The sub-amendment on the address in reply to the Speech from the Throne "may be moved subject to the same rules as any cimendment. It must be relevant to the amendment and cannot raise a new issue, " and then they go on, "gr eat latitude is al lowed in this debate." Now, I think :tvlr.

Speaker, with all due deference, that you must rule whether or not this sub-amendment raises a new issue. It must be relevant to the amendment and cannot raise a new issue. May I suggest with deference, Mr. Speaker, that you take this point of order under advisement. MR. SPEAKER: I can't quote our exact rules without a little time to hunt them up, but I did look at our rules and an amendment to the Throne Speech you can bring a neV>.r question into your motion to amendment and sub-amendment. And my ruling on the matter is that the amendment to the amendment is in order.

Proposed resolu tion the Honourable Member for Fisher. MR. STIN SON: vvhereas here on the point of order, did some one adjourn the debate? HONOURABLE DU FF ROBLIN (Premier) : The Member for Radisson intended to adjourn it. He stood to his feet, but I don' t know whether he caught the Speaker' s eye. MR. R. PAUL LEY (Radisson) : If nobody else, Mr. Speaker, desires to speak on the amendment to the amendment, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Fisher, that the debate be adjourned. IvlR. SPEAKER: I'm sorry that I didn' t . . . . . . . V�.

Speaker read the motion, and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. !viR. SPEAKER: Proposed resolution - the Honourable Member for Fisher. 'whereas the Agricultural Stabilization Act of 1958 does not assure agricultural producers a fair price based on the cost of production, this is borne out by the fact that the present hog price is set at 16 percent below the last ten-year average market price, and

whereas the western farmer are deliberately discriminating against the terms of the said Act, by exclusion. It has been moved by the Honourable Member for Radisson ••• beg pardon •• MR. STIN SON: J:vlr. S:peaker. the honourable gentleman wishes to have the order stand. MR. SPEAKER: Oh! I thought he was adjourning the debate.

Am I clear now? Z..1H.. �WBLIN: 1Ylr. Speaker, I fully expected the honourable member to continue with his resolution. I understan d that he does not wish to continue with it now. Nobody gave him a chance to stand up and say that he wants to have it stand. • •• Fine. Stand. MR. SPEAKER: That is the resol ution of the proposed by the Honourable Member for Fisher? 1Y1R. P. WAGNER (Fisher) : Hr. Speaker, if I may have the indulgence of this House, that resolution may stand. MR. SPEAKER: Stand. Agreed. The proposed resolution by the Honourable Member for Inkster. Re solved that in the opinion of this House ••• MR.

M.A. GRAY (Inkster) : I beg leave to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Fisher, the following resolution: Re s.ol ved that in the opinion of this House the Government should give consideration to the advisability of supplementing the in come o� the old age and blind pensioners and persons in receipt of the old age assistance, whose total income are not in excess of fifty-five dollars a month.

And be it further resolved that in the opinion of this HouRe, the Gmrernment should gi 1re consi deration to the advisability of providing medical, surgical, dental, and optical care for all old age pensioners in need of such assistance. And be it further resolved that in the opinion of this House the Governmen t should give consideration to the advisability of mavin� provisions for increased aid for housing projects for old age pensioners and the establishment of provin cial nursing homes for the aged. MR. SPEAKER: It has been moved by the Honourable the Member for Inkster, and I didn' t catch the Seconder.

MR. GRAY: Seconded by the Honourable Member for Fisher. IY�. Speaker read the motion. MR. GRAY: Mr. Speaker, I intend to be very brief since I am not in the best of health tonight, and secondly, I think that this subject has been discussed in this House for quite a long time. I h;we no apology for bringing this matter up again for the eighteenth time for the eighteenth session that I have the honour to be a J.viember of this House. Because I am convinced from experience in dealing with some of the old age pensione�s, and from what I have been inform ed, the situation of a number of' them is extremely tragic.

I don1t say and I don1t claim that I am the only one in this House who has the interest of the old aged. I1m just one of many and I hope that this time, probably, I will be one of all the 56 members. As you no doubt are aware there are two departmen t s in the 9

Province which deal with old age pensioners. One is the lv1anitoba Pension BoRrd, who are now dealing with those people from 65 to 69 years of age, inclus'ive, subject to the lvleans Test. And may I just spend a minut� to illustrate to some of the members who may not know, wh�t the Ivleans Test means. It means what it says.

Anyone anplying for a pension between 65 and 69 inclusive, must make an application which consists of about 50 questions and must prove without a doubt, by an affidavit, that he has no means to exist and they are placed on:a method of investigation that the applicant is definitely unable to provide for himself, subject to starvatio� otherwise he will be on the pension. He is being checked periodically. Every year, at least, he ,has to make an affidavit again th�t there is no change in the situation, and h�ve no other help whatsoever.

There are seven thousand of those now on the old age assistance department, supervised and adminis tered by the Provincial Government. ·Then they have the Old Age Security r.enartment, dealing with old age pensioners of 70 and over, without a means test. In other words, anyonB who can prove that he is 70 years of age, and is a citizen of Canada, can get his monthly pension of fifty-five dol lars. First, we don't know how many of those of 70 and over are actually in need of the pension.

That the very fact they don't have to go through a means test, justifies the granting, even to those who are not in need, lessens the amount of the pension. At the present, the old age security they have on the list fifty two thousand pensioners in.the Province of 70 and over and are receiving old age pension, plus the seven thousand registered under the old age assistance. In other words, a total of fifty-nine thousand are receiving old age pension in the Province of lvlanitoba, to date. Now, the resolution asks for assistance to those whose total income are not excess of fifty-f ive dollars a month.

But how can we determine, approximately, the number of old age pensioners who may not have any income above the fifty-fi ve dollars a month? In 1952, Mr. Speaker, the Old Age Assistance Ienartment trans ferred to the Old Age Security De nartment, the responsibiliti of the Federal Government, eighteen thousand pensioners of 70 years and over. Since 1952, they have transferred about twelve hun dred a year, making a total exceeding twenty-f ive thousand.

In other words, my guess is that at least twenty- five thousand old age pensioners in the Province, who are not receiving, or very little, addjtional to the fifty-five dollnrs a month. There still remain about, deducting about ten thousand who have since died. The death rate is about 250 a month, whether to lack of assistance or through other reasons, I do not know. But the average deat;h rate is 250 a month. So, if you dedu�t these, there still remain, at least, fifteen thousand adults who were originally under the means test.

In other words, with the ex ception of a few, the files still indicate that these pensioners hAve never received any help from anyone, although they may be permitted to earn a few dollars even when there is work available. There is also a large number of·old age pensioners who h!'lve tried to get along, manage one way or the other, until they are 70 years of age, because they did not want to undergo the tortures, 10

so to speak, of going through a Means Test . In th ei r year s, th ey were re spec table cit ize ns, th ey had th eir ovm familie s, and they did not feel like comirig to th e Old Age Pension Board and ask for a hand out, which they called it , until they were absol utely forca d to do it . In my opinion, ther e are alr ea dy fifte en tho usand ,fift ee n thousand at l. east, who have no added inc ome . Now, single men and women of fif ty-five doll ars a month, wil l ha ve to spen d the fifty-five dollars just for rent and meals .

And spe aking to many, and by obser vat ion s, the foll owing is th e av erag e menu, at least for th e single men who have to go to the restaurant to eat, as they have no fac ilit ies to do th eir own cook ing in the unsan ita ry rooms the y occupy, bec ause they cannot get anything else for twent y or twenty-two dollars a month . I know many, I know their names, if the depart ment wishe s to have th em . They go to the restaurant in th e morning. They get a bowl of porridge and coffee, for whic h th ey pay 25rf.. . At noon, they get soup, a pi ece of bread and coff ee - 25rf...

In the everting th ey hav e fi sh or meat, not steaks, not cavier, and not of the best qualit y - 60rf,., a to ta l of $1.10 a da y, or $33.00 a month, figuring at 30 days a mont h. The average re nt for a si ngl e ·p erson without too many conve niences, is twent y-two doll ars per month, making a total of fi ft y-five dollars, and they only kee p th ei r body and soul togeth er on thi s al lowan ce . Now, they req uire even small personal nec essi ties, a tooth brush; a comb; a pai r of stoc kings; perhaps an unde rwear; a little tobacco . vvhere ar e they going to get it ? Some are not gett ing it .

They probably go dowm to th e Munic ip ali ty and ask for it ,. but I have already ment ioned t;.hat the se peop le are di gnifi ed men and women . They hav e their own liv es, respectabl e li ves in th e pa st, and they don 't feel like doing it . And then the quest i.on of clothing and the question of hospi t ali zati on, medic in e, opti cal and so on . Their span of life, when they reach the age of 70, ev en 65, is not very long . It is th e duty of the community to help the m in a. more dignif ied way.

I re alize the gene ral situat ion of the old age pe nsion pr oblem in Canada is be ing disc uss ed, and con-. sidered, but . ... . . .. .. . . .. .... � ..••• to giv e th em somet hing tod ay - not tomorrow. Tomorrow may be too late for th ose only who have no other income . · Some honourab le members have ment ioned in the past th at it is the duty of the ch ildren to help . I agree. But don 't forget, in the fi rst place, the children are he lping them. The aver age man of 60 years of age is now being th rown out of th e labout market . They ca nnot find jobs .

They are re pla ced by younger men, probabl y at th e same wage . An industry is business-like. If th ey could get from a man more work, about 25 or 30, th ey won 't hesit ate to fire a man of 60 . Then, on the other hand, and th en they have to give them unt il th ey are 65, four or five years, an d chan ce s are th at helping them out later on a lit tl e . But the y must·realize one th ing, th at th e chil dren have their own lives to live. They ap� marrie d. They may not · have any surplus to give their parent s.

And th en, from my ex perien ce , I am· told by many of th e children, th at th ere is an other prob le m . This is domestic re la tio n ship . It may be that he has to help his wife's fat her or mothe r . He doesn't feel li ke doing it . He says he married her not her father or mother. Or the 11

same thing would be on the other side. So we cannot expect from the children to give them help and the children do help. Other wise probably the role ·of the old age pensioners would be very, very much greater than it is to date. After all, why should not the state help? These pensioners, Mr. Speaker, are men, who in years gone by, have worked in very low wages, and I am a witness to it. I worked in the early days of fifteen, seventeen and a half cents an hour, twenty-five cents an hour was a maximum wage.

And even in 1934, the Government of Manitoba declared only a twenty-five cents minimum.wage during the depression years. In other words, anybody can get work; but they cannot receive less than twenty-five cents. And they even had a stamp of approval at that time for the twenty-five cents an hour wages. VJell, how could they save? How would they save up for their old age? They couldn't do it. But these are the men who have built this very sam e building that we are in. The.se are the men that built our railroads.

These are the men who lost their lives going through the mountains and building a rail way for our own convenien ce. These are the men who have built our sanitary accommodations. These are the men who built the roads, sidewalks, to make our lives happy, to make our lives easier. Aren't "''e responsible to that? Couldn't we give them something - a little bit - towards their last few years of their lives in this so-called "golden age" period? vvhy couldn 1t we do it? We have millions of dollars for everything else. Fifty million dollars is being spent on liquor a year in this Province.

Couldn't they find any money for these poor old age pensioners? I'm not suggesting to give anyone who is not entitled to it, but those who have no other income. That's my plea to this House. I know this will be a temporary aid only, but a tempora ry aid means a lot. Helping out a sick person at a time in need may save his life. And I'm not concerned whether it's fifteen thousand or ten thousand or even one. Our Bible says that saving of one man's life is the same as saving a nation.

I do appeal �o this House to approve this resolution and show the old age pensioners that the elected body of this legislature are thinking of them and are praying for them, and hoping that the last few years of their lives will be a little bit easier so when they receive the Heavenly summons they could go with a smile instead of pestering the community in which they live. HONOURABLE GEO�lGE JOHN SON, M. D. (Minister of Health and Public Vielfare): I wish to spe ak to the resolution proposed by the Honourable t--Iember for Inkster.

If it were not that my colleagues have informed me that the honourable member had pro posed this same res olution previously, I would think he had been using our campaign literature. I wish to congratulate him on his persistence in zeal. In opposition, our party supported this resolution in principle, and still intend to do so. �e do not promise that the Go vernment will carry out the details -- all the details of this resolution, but our most serious con sideration has been given and is being given to all the items mentioned.

During our cam paign we talked about these proposals and·on as suming office, we immedia tely began to study all the proposals 12

mentioned in the resolution. vje received scores of letters from interested groups and various age ncies. We also received a delegation -- one delegation representing the Old Age Pensioners Association of the Province, and other pensione r groups. They were all urging that some action be taken.

Our knowled'ge of the problem, generally, and our corresporidenc.e and our visits to other Provinces, re-affirmed our conviction that prompt actiori was re quired, with priorities to those matters which we realized were mos� pressing. · In order to consolidate our knowledge and facts, we ·have ar-· ranged· for two confe rences in November.

On November 7th, we intend to -- hav:e invited the following groups to participate in a conferenc.e -- we 1 re mainly thinking of a home-care type of pro-· grams -- are: Co-ordinator of Rehabilitation Servic·es, represen tatives of the Nultiple Sclerosis Society: Merry Menders: Arth-· ritis and Rheumatism Society: Victorian Order of Nurses: City of vvinnipeg Healt h & welfare Departments:· Hospital Groups: Age and Opportunity Bureau. We feel that there is a real part that these agencies can play with us in helping these people and a-lso we have another Co nference slated for November lOth.

We are inviting all those interested in housing and hospital accommoda tion for the aged.. Vv'e have represent atives here -- have now. beem invited from the Sanitorium Boa,rd, the Med1.cal Association, the Hospital Council, the Age & Opportunity Bureau, the C6ntinuing Committee of Man:Ltoba Conference on Aging, the Welfare Council of Greater Winnipeg, the St. James Kiwanis Club, the United Church responsible for this St. Andrew1s project , Middlechurch Home, the City of Winnipeg Healt h and \;.ielfare Department. Now, all these people have written us and we had voluminous literature and requests.

We want the assistance of these· groups in helping us in the most efficie nt and expedient method of · dealing with the acute problems involved in furthering the health: and welfare of our senior citizens. This field has interested me' personally for years as I helped in the develo pment of a model home for the aged in that bastion of democracy, GimlL The great: benefits which came to these people: as their housing and living conditions improved was a revelat ion to me and the feeling which they seem ed to get when they realized the younger generation really did care. · Mr.

Speaker, I can assure the Honourable member for Inkster that this Government will explore every avenue with expediency in order to make available a better way of life for our senior citizens in need. I might add we have a large C omm:i:,ttee working' on a scheme to provide more suitable facil ities for the more in firm of our senior citizens. As you know, the average age at which these p.eople are coming into hospital and housing accommo dation has risen tremendously and in some homes, the average age at which they come into inst.itutions is 86 years.

We are about, also Sir, to appoint a Supervisor of Housing in order to assist us in sell ihg this to the publi.c. Vve 1 re going to go out and show them what can be done. vve have gone so far as to serve notice on our Provincial Treasurer as to the am ount of money required and this Treasurer is lending us a willing ear - not like our pre decessors� I understand. 13

We know the people of'. this Province will apprec iate action on the part of the Government. \rve are studying our priorities in this field and I can· assure the honourable member that this Government is a Government of action. Our most sympat hetic considera tion will be given to all the items mentione d in the resolution and the appropriate legislation will be presented to this legisl ature in due course. For this -- f6r these reasons, our Governme nt intends to support the honourable memher1s motion. I have, :tv'lr.

Speaker, I know of the honourable member'' s inter est in this problem from my colleagues and how he has presented it for years, but this is part of our program. 'liJe1re going to do it -- we have started to do it now as I have indicated. ThRnk you� MR. STINSON: Mr. Speaker, I didn't intend to speak a second time tonight, but this is a. momentous occasion -- and I hope that it will not turn out to be a disappoin tment, but it certainly is the first time that my honourable friend has had this measure of success.

He.has had some small measu re of success in the past in this matter and I have risen to pay him a tribute rather than to do anything else. He is the senior member of' our group. This is the 18th time that he has presented a resolution of this kind to the Manitoba Legislature. The Honourable the Minister of Health and Public 11\.r� lfare has said that the Govern ment is prepared to accept this resolution. vVe are, indeed, glad to hear that. He said that perhaps not every detail will be ac cepted.. I hope that they, upon serious considerat ion, will accept every part of it.

There are some pretty· important parts to this resolution. For example, supplementing the income of the Old Age & Blind Pensioners who are in need� providing medical, surgical, denta],. and optical care for all old age pensioners in need of such assistance. Last year, my honourable friend hFld the word "hospital" there as well, but in view of the new hospital plFln, we thought that perhaps that was not necessary, although I understand that there are some problems in connection with that. There are a number of pensioners in doubt about what their. status is.

Then, of course, the matter of housing projects for the aged is some thing that deserves very high priority, indeed, and if I may be permitted to mention my favorite province, I think that the Minister would do well to take a trip to Saskatchewan and go throughout that Province and find what has been done because they haye there a most m0gnificen t program in the fi eld of housing - particulFlrly nursing homes. So that this, Sir, is a Red Letter Day for the Honourable Member for Inkster. For years we referred to him as the Honourable Member for vd .. nnipeg North, Mr.

Gray, and it is difficult to become accustomed to the new term . He now is the Member for Inkster and we wish to pay him a tribute for his persistence, for his long service in this House and for the work that he hFls done, not only for the pensione�s· but for the people of his constituency, of his City and of the Province of Manitoba as a whole • .!YlR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Sneaker, my honourable friend who has 14

just ta ken hi s se at has said t hat this is a Red Let te r Day and I ce rta inly join wit h him and with th e Minist er of He alth and Public ·welfare in paying trib ut e to the persi sten ce an d ce rt ai nly I am sure, . si nce re pe rsis tenc e of th e Honourab le 1v1ember for Inkst er in th is reg ard .

I wouldn-' t want , howeve r, this occa si on to pnss without me ntion ing the fa c't that when we ha.d the privi l'ege of occupying th e Tre asury Be nch e s of th·i s Leg isl at ive As sembly that we hn d mir re asons for ta k ing the st and that \lice hav·e ta ken . 'I th ink that th ere is a te nde nc y when our Honourabl e Fri end from Inks te r mov es th is moti on with the great sinc erity an d fee li ng th at he do es for a grea t many people to hav e the ir emotions con sid erabl y ardused by the pic ture that he draw s of these pe nsion ers and I th il}k tha t should not beclo ud th e issu e that lie s be- . fore us . · Frist, I know of no one on the si de of th e House over the re und er the last Gov ernment that eve r argued that the amount pa id was enough in all ca ses -- even though att empts may have been mad e to prove us extre mely hard -h eart ed person s and extr emely parsimonious , the fact is tha t we were always among th e ver y fi r st to admit th at the pension itself was not suffic ient .

How many times hav e my colle agues and I sai d th at --

part icularly we have said if only one of th e couple was on the pension and th e other one wasn't, or if ·il ln es s obt ained in on e or both, or if expen si ve medic in es had to be provided or somethi ng of th is kind . The re is no di ffer ence of opinion on that point in th is House and I must s,ay tha t we ne ver asked th e question th at my Honoura bl e Fri end , the Leade r of the c. c.F ... JParty , used tonight ; say ing tha t we of.te n heard in here ye ars ago :about where 's the mone y coming from.

My honoura bl e frien d ne ve!' heard that ques t ion from us, nev er . vvhat we said all th e ti me was •••••• All rig ht , loo.k .it up! • • • • • vve 'can fi nd • • • Pard on? ••• We ca n find many occa sion s - if th ey said it; it was the rh etorical question in ord er to just giv e th e rep ly - we can find many occ as ions where we were ac cused by my honourable fr iends on that si de an d that sid e of saying it that way. \tvhat we always sai d was not "Whe re 's the money coming from" , we always trie d to remind th e ta x payers , remind th e pe ople he re th at somebod y had to pay and tha t 's th ep oint that where a gr ea t many of pe ople -

part icularly my frien ds , or I should say , tr adi ti onally my fr iend s in this Party , and only rec en tl y my fr ie nds in th at Part y have bee n in cl ine d to forge t th at th ese things all come back on the ta x pay ers - th ere is no such th ing as a fr ee se rvic e and th at 's th e th ing we were trying to point out . It wasn 't where the money ca me from . Ev erybody kn ows where it comes from if they would only st op to th ink - it ·c omes righ t out of th e pockets of th e tax pa yers , but we never said it sh ouldn 't come from . 'vVe always admitt ed it should come when there wa s .n ee d.

The whole questi on so far as we were con ce rn ed , an d I see my honourable friends sha kin g th eir heads and smil ing -- I cha ll enge the m to pr ove that wrong -- th at is what we said -- tha t 's what we say still an d th at 's a fact , there was no quest ion ab out the need , th er e was no questio n that th e need shouldn 't be suppl i'ed . The whole questi on was where should the resp onsibi lity lie ? On the Provinc ial Gove rnment or on the Municip al author ity and th at is sti ll the que stion and our sub- 15

mis sion wa s ju st as si ncerely as my hon ourab le fr ien d beca use with all his grea t in te re st �n thi s sub j � ct , he hasn 't the mono poly in te res t in it - �t her people have be en in t ereste d , to o • •••• No , I kno w , I know, my honour able frien d hasn 't even inti ma ted that • ••• Al l the rest of us �e re in te re sted in this que st ion, but we were int ereste d in gett ing it don e the best way an d I ap pre ci at e the sta t eme nt that the Ho nour able Mini ster has made to n ight , I app reci at e the fact th at he is in cl ined to get things done .

I am su re he is go ing to ta cikle this wi th his cus to mary ze al an d ef fi ci en cy but I st il l say that when you lo ok at the bus ine ss adm in istr at ion of this an d somebody , so me body should raise the que stion of the ta x payer 's position, beca us e they 'r e the people that have to pay it . an d when you get to the ques tion of who can do it bes t , I still say to yo u tha t it 's the mu nic ip al peo ple .

The y kn ow, th ey kno w the si tua tio n and on e of the thin gs that pre ju dices an d en dan gers a lo t of these we lfare pro gra ms to da y is the fa ct of pe ople bein g re ady to try to ge t on to the m when they don 't dese rve to an d the people that ca n ke ep the · si tu at ion in hand so as to see th at the one s who re ally do need it , get it , and no t pre ju dice the plan by havin g peop le ge t it who do n't need it , are the muni cip al peo ple, an d that 's the pos ition we have ta ken all the way th r ough an d I st ill say it wa s the righ t posi t ion , but aft er all , the Hon ourab le �linister has sai d , an d he spe aks for the Govern me nt , that th is is what they are pre par ed to do .

I, too , con gratula t e him on be ing wi llin g to de al wi th it so quick ly, an d if the Go ve rnme nt is pr epar ed to do it , I stat e the position that \•!e ha ve taken thro ugh th e years , but we ar e ce rt ainly l)Ot goi ng to make an issu e of it now . If my hon ourab le frien ds are vd lli ng to as sume this , the y are wi ll ing to as sume this obl ig ation, then there is no reason why we should prot est against it .

I am si mpl y put tin g on rec ord the fa ct , an d I put it as we have do ne many ti mes befo re, the re ason we thoug ht , an d I st ill thin k that the ot her way is bet ter . �Iy hon ourab le fr ien d , I am wi ll ing to give him an d the Govern me nt a chan ce if th ey want to tr y . I would rather see him admini sterin g it than a lo t of his col l ea gue s • .M..1 . J. CO VvAN ( Vd nnipeg Cen tre ): 1-'lr. Spea ker , I move, se con ded by the Honou rable Ivlember for St . :t-latthe ws , that the de bat e be ad jo urned • .lv1R.

ROBLIN : \. ith the mo tion on th is, I wou ld li ke .to offer a sugg es tion ab out the re st of the bu si ness . · .Mr. Spe ak er re ad the mot io n, and aft er a vo ice vote decl ared the mot ion car rie d . M1CZ. :{OB LIN : I am wo nderin g, Sir , if there is an y member who ad jo urn ed on e of the Bi lls this aft ernoon who is pr epared to con ti nue the de bat e. If there is, I wo uld su gge st tha t we shou ld d·O SO • .tvm .• CA MPB.LLL : Mr . Spea ker , the Ho nou rable th e Fir st l·�inist er is si mply su ggest ing tha t we revert again as ag ree d to before we 16

rose at the di nner adj ournment to the first of the Order Paper . I am afraid th a:t his opti mi sm is not we ll- founde d , but if an yon e is, I agr ee with him en tir el y . Let us go ah ead . MR . SP EAK ER : Rhinela nd Bill No . Secon d rea d ing s ? 2. The Honourable Member for l-t.�. MILLER : Mr. Spea ker , as I have in dicat ed be fore, I would prefe r to le t this mat te r st and unt il tomorrow. MR. SP EAKER : Mr . Cle rk, what Bill is next , we have pa sse d some of th ese , have n't we ? Bill No . 3, the Honourabl e Member for Flin Fl on. MR. F.L. JO BIN (F li n Flo n) : Mr.

Speake r, may I have the indulge nc e of th e House to let this Bill st and , ple ase . MR. SPE AKER : Bill No . $, the Honourable membe r for St e. Rose. MR. G. MOLGAT (S te . Rose ): th is be al lowed to stan d . Sir , I to o , would ask that MR. SPEAK ER : Rad isson. MR. PAUL LEY : wise . Bill No . 12, the Honourable Member for Mr. Spea ke r, may I all ow this to stan d li ke- MR.

ROBLI N: We ll , Sir , having ca lled the Roll and dr awn a blan k , I thin k possi bly I sh ould proc eed to our fin al order of busin e ss an d move th at the House, secon ded by the Honourable Minister for Agricu lture , tha t the House do now adj ourn an d stan d adj ourned unt il 2: 30 tomorrow aft ern oon. Mr . Speak er re ad th e motion and aft er a vo ice vo te , ,the House was ad journed unt il 2: 30 the followi ng day . 17

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	25-1-3b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	25th 1st hansardpdf 3b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f95e6f7bf8b73ca97364701059f758923fea3528

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