Manitoba Hansard — 30 March 1967 (Sitting 90, 28th Legislature, 1st Session)

28-1-90

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

'' THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI:rOBA 8:00 o'clock, Thursday, March 30, 1967 { .i MR . SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the second reading of Bill NU1Ilber 56. Are"· you ready for the question? , MR . . EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I thin)< I will assume, J14r. Speaker, that I said mos.t of, the, argumentative things , when I spoke on the previous motio�. and my object tonight :>y�ll b� cto;;tr, Y. fo answer the questions that either were not covered at that time or that !).ave been askt:ld sine.�. _' I would like to say to the Honourable Member for Lak:esid� that I regretted .tqat I- , was absent from the .

House during part of his address because Uound it a :v�ry inter ��ting �l:ldress indeed and he was deyeloping an important point of vie ,;.., ,and though! ·may ap _N�r. to ' be one of the ha,rd-shelled or whatever kind of people it was that I was described as not op�ll ideas, nevertheless, I don't think you can be a Provincial Treasurer today �itho1,1t being _ very sensible of the- point of view th?-t my honourable friend . i.yas putting forward.

I th<?ught it. was a contri)?ution to the current discussion and one that will have to be continued ov.er, the ,., and the years ahead, and it was I think a matter of !}eCef>sity that � had to lea.y� :3.t that • 1 , had one thing that I had to deal with my staff, and I we lco�ec( Jtis contributio!l to the ., , debate. l .. ) think I would like to make one general comment before I turn to the pa.rEicular gu,e�stion9 that is the fact, and I regard it as a fact, that this Act itself and the administr ation of it , . · the regulations under it will h�ve to continue to grow and adapt .as. the , �.Q!ilths_an�Lthe years rward.

This has bee!l the experience of all the other s.aies taxes .i.ri all the other jurisdic- . It is interesting for example that Saskatchewan which has had its sales , t� ��ce l937 still amending its sales tax regulations iJ.nd so is Ontario .an!l so is New Br;�swic .k, so ax;e. the others, and I think I would like to make this point, that we don't approach �y of the ·s� .: with a closed mi�d. I find there is some tendency to regard it . as a retre�t .Qr as ' :a.lac k, , or whatever the ca�e may be, when we dq make a cha�ge.

I, propose to- �ak� · · s and I propose, as things become obvious as the right tlmlg to do:. t�· mak� tij.o�� · . .• �.: s.

I don,'t approach _either the enactment of this legi!llat�on as a closeg , bp�k 11-or the e. : _ _-. set of regulations when they appear as being the- last and final word,, and I may say �th�� . providing for regulations in lopse-leaf form because the very voluii\e of them wil,l �aj{e it ' sary to cont .inue this process of refining and adapting as we go alo11g, and I thought I make that as a prelirpinary remark in this case. . . . . · . . . ..: _, Now to turn to partipular questions which have been asked in the meantUp,e, I, W()ul,ii J.ij<� . try to provide the information.

I was asked when is a bulldozer a producti o.p m�qAin�FY .}in� not? Do we tax the municipality when it buys such equipment or do we exempt it, period. s the way it appeared in Hansard. Well there is no exemption by reason . bf.� cl �ss p( � the exemptions are applied to classes of goods.

With respect to a bulld 6zer, whe -� it i� as a farm tractor, it's exempt; when it's used exclusively in : logging or J�es'umaj:Jly any .. productive purpose of that kind, it's exempt; and)f used directly lin manlifac;:ty.re or BJI'rC?!l\J:C!tiCm exclusively for that purpose in a yard to move materials around or, wha,tever the '· may be, it's equally exempt at that time. We will follow, in general, Sch�dul� 5 of. the ' · �_..,.,, · c "' Tax Act of Canada, and th�se items which -may enter Canada eith,e� t� ��einpt �r- und�r li\l"J�u•tc:<:>u tariff rates \Vill )Je considered exempt for our sales t�.

I have -h(lr!J �. pop y - �f . ' ·: '. 5, It would take. a cgnsid�?rable length of time to read, it i&.in print. It's :l\VaU(lble .,, ��u.uu.uu,LU:<�uJ.t: .tueaubers can look it up. If it would be of any service to anyone J'll be , glad to. •m•mrtno copies or io malte .them ava ilable, and my fr.iends will npte that aJ?.d �ee:··that I .do: ·· ' . I waf? asked \Vill coin-operated machines be taxable, that is the us� ;of a c9in-operated III.'!'·"Y·UilJ'"'· .· They will not be - taxable . because as far as I am aware the kinds of macl},ine� we · are - about all have an individual sales of 25'¢ or less.

The other kind that com!!s to .my � _ cigarettes which sell for more than that, but cigarettes are not taxable under 'The Tax Act. ·

2108 March 30, 1967 (MR. EVANS cont'd) ..... without tax if a prescription is to run continuously. As it's obtaine d from the doctor, it may be refilled. If a doctor prescribes a limit or a number of times the prescription may be refilled, it will of course require a new prescrip tion to continue to get the ; drug tax exempt . · The question was asked to illustrate the difference between the goods that will be taxable as produced by market gardeners and illustrat ions were used of petunias and onions.

Well I think we shnply have to say that onions are food and will be exempt; petunias are not and will be taxable. --(Interjection)-- Well, my honourable friend is right. It is true, and in almos t every class of trade this is hard to administer. There won't be any doubt about that. This has been the experience elsewhere and we anticipate it being very difficult here. Consumer purchases from commercial operations are taxable in respect of taxable ite ms.

Items such as onions being food for human consumption are exempt, and purchases by whole salers and retailers, etc., for resale will be made free of tax, that is to say, the tax will be applied at the time the ultimate consumer buys it. It will not be taxed in the wholesalers' hands nor in the hands of a retailer if that sale is intended to -- if that quantity of goods or that item is intended to be resold later on.

I can think of occasions on which organizations will buy, shall we say, quantities of flowers or other things to be sold either to raise mone y for charity or other reasons, and the tax will be applied at the wholesale level and not in the case of a charitable sale to the ultimate purchaser at the charity bazaar or as the case may be. Again, my honourable friends, a complicated matter, and in these things I think we are going to have to say that we are going to require the wisdom of Solomon and our object will be to be fair.

Our object will be not to impose undue hardship, not to be unjust to anyone, and there will be cases - and let's frankly face it - there will be cases in which judgment will be required, and so far as I am able in the department I will try to see that these over-riding requirements are lived up to. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia now also raised a complex matter touching on contracts that are already in existence and whether or not the tax will be applied to a contract already in existence and running, and these are of many types.

I mentioned in the Budget Address one particular kind and that would be a construction or building contract entered into before the 6th of February I think was the date I gave the Budget Address, in which it's auto matic that anyone applying for relief from the taxation will be given it.

That is to say, if a contractor has undertaken to build a home or building or any structure on a fixed price contract which was in effect up to the time of the Budget Address, and he applies for a refund of any sales tax that's been levied on the materials entering into that contract, I would say that it would be almost automatic that that refund would be made.

But I think thete are other classes of contract that may well prove to be unfair if we applied the mere letter of the law, and any � case will be considered by the Taxation Branch and we will undertake to use our best endeavours to see that harship or injustice is not inflicted on anyone by reason of the tax, and I would say ·. to my honourable friend that if he has particular cases of this kind in mind he can refer them .· to me or perhaps it might be better, and.faster, _ to apply direct _ to tru: Director _ of Taxatio_n in j the Treasury Department and the case w11l be given every cons1derat10n for rehef of any m- ) justice or hardship that may be imposed by the tax.

There was a question in connection with commissions. I think it was - was it my honour able friend from Rhineland? The question I think ran about as follows: - that, is the commis sion of three percent on the first $200.00 and two percent on everything thereafter based on the tax collected? Yes, that is so. In other words, if someone collected $200. 00 worth of tax in a year they would have three percent of $200. 00 or $6. 00 as a commission, and two per cent on the amounts above that. It is not the three percent or two percent on the value of the goods, but rather on the amount of tax collected.

Refer ence was made to auction sales. Who is going to sort out the taxable items, deter mine which items are to be taxed and which are not, and who is going to check these out? Well, all auctioneers will become vendors under the Act, will be licensed for the purpose, will be responsible for collecting the tax on the taxable items, the same as any other retail store, and remitting it to the government, to the Treasury. And who will check these out? They will be subject to the same inspection by the Compliance Officers as any other retail outlet.

What will the cost be for bonding a vendor and would it impose a hardship? I wasn't able< to secure any exact figures of premiums, but I think the terms of bonding will be almost exac tlY,

2109 . EVANS cont'd) •.... the same as under any other taxing Act of the province at the present me. I made enquiry and I was assured that they had no complaints about the cost or the oner � us nature of the premiums for a bond, and so I think our conditions here will correspond actly to the conditions under any other taxing statute and it's my impression at the moment 1bat this has not imposed a hardship on the vendors who operate under it now, nor do I expect 1t to impose a hardship under the present statute. · MR . FROESE: May I ask a question? Mr.

Speaker, these bonds will be in addition to fuxisting bonds that they already carry. Is that right? 1"- MR . EVANS: I must apologize to my honourable friendQ I didn't quite hear the question. :{: ,, MR . FROESE: These bonds that they'll be required to carry will be additional bonds , �to whatever is in existence already. These will be additional bonds that they will have to '· ?�arry. Am I right? ;: MR . EV ANS:I can think of s.averal bonds which will not duplicate between a vendor under 'lthe Sales .Tax Act and a venaor under certain other taxing Acts; as, for example, in the sale �of gasoline.

I doubt this -- the gasoline tax is collected at a different level and it will not be · e same commercial organization likely that will be collecting the tax now for tires and pairs and other things of that kind at a garage, as the people who are collecting it for the soline tax purposes. It may well be that there'd be an outlet which would sell ordinary goods services would also sell - tobacco doesn't count because tobacco is not taxable under this ct. I'm endeavouring to think of occasions, and I'm sure there will be, where there will be uirements for bonding under two Acts.

If that turns out to be the case I am sure it would ·:,;Be right to determine the total liability that there might be to cover, and to arrange for a bond ��ccordingly and not simply to duplicate the bonding merely because of two different kinds of I think we look forward to as good an administrative system as it's been possible to ,design at this stage, and so much will depend upon the relationships between vendor and the � overnment - even the vendor and purchase r, and certainly between members of the public - · pon the kind of administrative system we have.

If the administrative system is efficient, if �ti s well-trained and knows its business, I'm hoping that one of the great disadvantages of the '5 ales tax can be at least abated or minimized. The money I won't discuss again.

But the other ; .. andicap of the system is undoubtedly inconvenience and I suppose it's a responsibility of the :frreasury to try to reduce as much friction as possible, to reduce the - for want of a better f ord - the nuisance of the system, the irritation, the frictions that may well develop, and all �- can tell the House is that we're conscious of the problem; we have sought the \lest advice; ty,.e have discussed it with the administration of every other sales tax in the country to learn � e difficulties that they have encountered, to get their best advice as to how we can best adapt ·�'our system, and we're going to see if we can't organize a tax administration system which '·ill be satisfactory and will do its job in the public interest.

I did mention the other day that "�e are equipping ourselves with the best in machinery.

The computer itself will be a very : apable one and with the latest advice from the computer designers and with their programmers, . ]they are called, I think we have been able to establish routines which will be efficient, and hope ��ully, from every point of view, not only from the point of view of irritation on the part of the · ublic with my Department and with me, which is an objective policy for me, but genuinely to :educe the irritation and the friction among the public and among the vendors and between the arious elements of society, we'll do our best.

May I say that I hope as we move into Committee stage that my honourable friends will ,eel that I want to give them any information that they would like to have. I'm not aware of c y question that's been asked in the course of debate so far that I haven't attempted to answer. )!f such is the case and my honourable friend will renew it again in the appropriate place at the ,ommittee stage, I'll do my very best to supply the information, and through some of the stress d storms of recent times if, as my honourable friend said, if I lost my urbanity, I'm sorry �'did.

I think we have a common mutual task between both sides of the House to see that as far ·�S you're concerned a bad job is made the best of, and as far as I'm concerned that a responsi ;' ility which is mine is carried out as efficiently and as well as I can. . MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if my honourable friend would permit one estion on an interesting point to me, and I'm not professing to be one of the legal fraternity. )n not, and it's a good thing for democracy that there are some of us in this House that are pt. My question relates, Mr.

Speaker, to a statement I understood my honourable friend to �5ake when he was dealing with the question of the re-sale of flowers at a charity bazaar or

2110 March 30, 1967 {MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ..... church function, which I have nothing against, but it raises to me an interesting point.

If I understood my friend correctly, the tax would be paid at the wholesale level notwithstanding the fact that the flowers themsel ves were going to be subsequ ent ly sold at a retail level , and the question arises in my mind as to whether or not (again I confess a lack of legal training) but the question arises in my mind as to whether or not this might be in conflict with the BNA Act or might establish a precedent insofar as the application of a sales tax which is presumably a direct sales tax at the purchaser level, to other commodities as well as the flowers.

I appreciate the objective that my honourable friend has, Mr. Speaker, but it does raise in my mind a bit of conflict as I understand the rights of the direct tax at the pur chaser level. MR. EVANS: I think two principles on which we're acting apply here. One is, not to apply a tax at a charitable sale or at a retail sale which does not involve a commercial opera tion. And that's the classification under which charity bazaars, church bazaars and other things would come.

Then we turn to the definition of purchaser or consumer, and the ruling would be in that case that the organization who are purchasing such things as flowers for the purposes of raising money are regarded on that occasion as being the purchaser or consumer of the goods. Now my honourable friend will recognize that it's complex, and I'm not a lawyer either. Fortunately, however, we have access to lawyers of this kind. My understanding is that practice in other proYinces corres ponds very well with that and if we run into difficulties perhaps they'll give us advice that will help us out. MR.

PATJLLEY: ... legally, ... these fellow on my left. MR. PHILIP PERTURSSON (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, just a very sim ple little ques tion. I'm under the impression that I heard the Minister say that if a doctor leaves instructio ns that a prescription be renewed that that can be renewed. It is then renewed and it is exempt from taxation. Is that -- but if the prescription is good for only the one time then a new pres cr iption must be issued, but there is a situa tion in which the druggist will call the doctor to see whether the prescription may be reissued or rebilled . Would that qualify as a ... MR.

EVANS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that would qualify. I see no difficulty in administering it because a responsible person such as a pharmacist would keep records of the further author ity he got from the Doctor. The reason is very likely medical in limiting the number of times that any prescription might be renewed. I would say there'd be little difficulty in a common or garden thing, and to use an illustration - aspirin. I doubt very much if there is great danger in renewing a prescription for aspirin.

But it might well be that there's a certain do sage beyond which a certain prescription should not go, and the doctor might put a limit on the first prescription and it would be right, for medical reasons, for safety, that the pharmacist seek further authority before renewing this prescription. My undersd n ding is that a telephone call would do it and while I don't know the practice, I'm sure there would be no additional fee on the part of the doctor to renew a prescription by telephone in that way. It's also possible for someone holding a prescription to transfer it from one pharmacy to another.

This is regular practice; in fa ct I've done it myself. So that if one were to move or change one's drugstore, it would be possible to have the prescription transferred from one druggist to another and then continue to get supply from the second source. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I can address a question to the Provincial Treasurer. When does he expect the Bill to go to the Commit tee of the Whole, and will the re gulations be available to members of the House at that time? MR.

EVANS: Well, as soon as it's possible under the rules of the House which I think requires 48 hours, is that correct? It will go as soon as -- the first moment ! can put it in there; and with respect to the regulations, there are no such things. Regulations will be passed when the Act is given assent. It will be passed by Order-in-Council and issued on the author ity of the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. SOME MEMBERS: Oh-h-h. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, your ears deceive you. � es and Nayes please. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I'd like to inform the Honourable Leader of the Opposi tion, this is my deaf side. Call in the members please. MR. MOLGAT: That is very obvious, Sir.

];larch 30, 1967 2111 A standing vote was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS: Messrs. Beard, Bjornson, Carroll, Cowan, Craik, Einarson, Enns, Evans, Hamilton, Jeannotte, Johnson, Klym, Lissaman, Lyon, McGregor, McKellar, McKenzie, McLean, Masniuk, Roblin, Shewman, Spivak, Stanes, Steen, Watt, Weir, Witney, and Mesdames Forbes and Morrison. NAYS: Messrs. Barkman, Campbell, Cherniack, Dawson, Desjardins, Dow, Doern, f ox, Froese, Green, Guttormson, Hanuschak, Harris, Johnston, Miller, Molgat, Patrick, paulley, Petursson, Shoemaker, Tanchak, Uskiw, Vielfaure. MH. CLERK: Yeas, 29; Nays, 23. MR.

SPEAKER: I declare the motion carried. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, if you would now be good enough Sir, to call the Committee of Supply. MR. SPEAKER: Motion that the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney General, that Mr. Speaker, do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a 'Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. f MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Arthur in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: Department XVI "- Urban Development and Municipal Affairs. Resolu . tion 104, Item l (a). The Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs. I HON. THELMA FORBES (Minister of Urban Development and Municipal Affairs) I (Cypress): Mr.

Chairman, Monday evening when the clock reached 10 o'clock I was attempt-. ing to explain to the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks some of the recommendations contained l in the Michener Report.

We have put some of these into effect as I outlined, some of them we l,have partially implemented, and some we are implementing in the course of normal change in ;our existing program, and although I did not finish it and although I'll admit it was a sketchy outline for the time that I have allotted to me here, I still would like to remind the honourable fmember that the province has taken over a major share of the cost of drainage in the province. c'Municipalities are responsible for constructing and maintaining first and second order drains - -these are the .small drains that will drain some 160 on 320 acres of land - butlthe province has :c established a provincial waterway system which is responsible for the construction and main- � tenance of all drains in a higher order than those of first or second order drains.

So together �with that which I mentioned Monday evening last and these few remarks, I think the Honourable j' Member from Seven Oaks will know that consideration has been given to the Fisher Report and ''the Michener Report, both very valuable reports and reports that we refer to from time to time, _and to a degree several of the se recommendations have been implemented, as I've said, either whole or in part or are being implemented in the normal course of our existing program. The honourable member also mentioned the hope that a new Municipal Act would be ':before us in the not too far distant future.

I might tell him that the revision of the Municipal i, Act is progressing well, but I'm sure the honourable member will realize the magnitude of �.this undertaking. It's hoped that so far as it's feasible and possible, legislation affecting all imunicipalities should be uniform, and when the Municipal Act is finally revised consideration �Will likewise be given to the city charters. This Act, however, the Municipal Act, will have ito be finalized before we can give consideration to the city charters.

I noted with considerable interest the honourable member's remark that local realty : taxes are unable to provide all the services that are demanded of a modern municipality,and I ".noted his suggestion of the withdrawal of all services related directly to people such as health, �.Welfare, education, as a measure to help the growth and development of all our local jurisdic ;rtions. It was rather interesting to compare his remarks and his thoughts in this field to the � thoughts presented a little earlier in the evening by the Honourable Me�ber from Turtle :;, Mountain.

The Honourable Member from Turtle Mountain, as you recall, was rather disturbed [at any sugges tion concerning the present situation in our municipalities. The Honourable Mem � ber for Seven Oaks told us that there was a serious sickness within municipalities and he feared ·tthat if they didn't have some help they may wither, and I think the Honourable Member for -�_Turtle Mountain does not just altogether agree with this statement. The Honourable Member for

211 2 March 30, 1967 (MRS. FORBES cont'd) ....• Seven Oaks states that municipal governments are facing a finan cial crisis but the Member for Turtle Mountain, taking the opposite view, he says the well being of municipalities is based on the ability of the ta.xpayer to sit down with his councillor or the Secretary-Treasurer and iron out his problems, and that we'd better take a good look at the boundaries before we upset the well-being of our community. Well now, you will note, Mr.

Chairman, that these two honourable gentlemen share opposite opinions, and I extend to them my thanks because they both have expressed their opinions and I'm sure they're expressing the opinions of a good many people that they represe nt, and I feel quite sure that we must give consideration to both viewpoints which have been ex pressed.

The fact that they disa gree to me is a point of really considerable importance, be cause it indicates so very clearly the fact that there is no easy solution to the problem that face local governments today, and I think, as I expressed myself before, in some areas they feel that they have no problems and if they feel this way then by all means this is a good, healthy municipality, and let it survive on its ovm feet the way it's going. If they feel they have troubles then I'm sure they are the people who will sit down and take a look at themselves .

And so I say that the arguments presented by both these gentlemen merely emphasize the importance of carefully investigating all sides of the matter before any action is taken. We must recall that individuals in business, in farm operations, have to carefully examine all phases before they make a move. Either they stay as they are or they expand, they acquire and develop different techniques, and I think the same is true of all levels of government. But remember the initiative must come from the individual. It must come from the municipal ity itself, from the local area, from the source.

They are the people who know their business best and they are the ones who should make the move. The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks also stated that more fiscal powers should be given to municipal authorites if local governments are to survive, and he points out that certain projects which municipalities present with a referendum to the people go down to defeat when this money by-law is presented. And he says that if a municipality is to function properly then they should have these projects which they know would be to the benefit of the municipality.

And here again I can only assure him that considera tion is being given to this apparent muni cipal difficulty which faces so many municipal councils. And I'd like to point out to the honour able member that I'm interested in foster ing strong local government where the elected repre sentative in that government will be given broader power s of discretion.

He also pointed out that some municipalities outside Metro Winnipeg were facing difficult ies with the assessment of farm land and market garden land on the assessment difficulties that they face because assessment is taken on sale value resulting in high assessirnent and heavy tax burdens. Well now, I know all of you will recall that yesterday afternoon we met with the representatives of the nine municipalities and we had a very informative meeting, and I think that we all came out of that meeting realizing that there was no easy solution here, but we learned a great deal and we are ready to study it further.

I appreciated the suggestion that came out of that meeting that we sh ould have a committee of this House, that one might be set up during this Session to look into this and study it and hopefully come up with some recommendation, and I assure you that I will be taking steps to make sure that this committee gets going and that we do study it and try to help out these people who are certainly in need of some assistance.

The Honourable Member from Seven Oaks also brought out the point that he's rather fear ful -- that we should do something about the municipalities which make up Metro, that if we have to wait too long for the Boundaries Commission to sit that he fears that it will be a long long time before they come up with any recommendations. Well I would like to tell the member and the members of this House that the government created their Local Government Boundaries Commission to study a series of boundary changes in Metro and in all Manitoba, and the Bound aries Commission has been provided, Mr.

Chairman, with funds to enable it to carry out a very extensive research program because we believe that a great deal of research and financial as pects of any boundary division must be fully studied befeJTe any recommendations are made , and we think that having provided the machinery to make effective studies so that the Boundaries · Commission may come up with some sound and firm recommendations on changes that are re quired in territory the government would be ill advised to ignore the instrument created to aid it in solving these local government problems by taking any unilateral action which could in fact complicate this very complicated pattern of local government which we have.

The Honourable Member for St. Boniface in his remarks pointed out two or three things

" arch 30, 1967 2113 ;(MRS. FORBES cont'd) ..... on which I would like to comment. First of all the Honourable rt<rember for St. Boniface asked why a defeated Cabinet Minister would be appointed as Chair �"man of the Local Government Boundaries Commission. Well, may I say to the Honourable �Member for St. Boniface and to all the honourable members in this Legislature that I hold in �very high esteem any man or woman who offers his or her services for public office in this ;fprovince, regardless of their political stripe. In an election, the choice lies with the people. ;'This is a democracy, Mr. Chairman.

One wins and one loses; and in my humble opinion both "the candidates have qualifying attributes. And I stand ready to compliment the winner and I ;also would not cast any shame or demerit marks on the loser, and if the loser has had expe � rience, then this tends to increase his or her value because experience to me is nothing less itthan education and as such is a very prized possession.

The government of the day at any ;]eve! is the people's choice, and that government regardless of its political name has through ,C0ut the years appointed men and women to the chairmanship of committees, to boards, to be 'judges, to the senate, to many things; and when you consider this appointment, any appoint :'ment that you might recall, I think that we wouldn't care to cast any reflection on the govern :iment of the day who made the appointment. And indeed we wouldn't care to cast any reflection ;,�n the recipient of any such appointment.

For example, let's think about the Honou rable Mr. {Bracken who headed the commission which brought in the recommendation for our liquor laws. 1JA very honourable man; he was picked for his ability I am sure. Or more recently let's think 1:0£ Mrs. Margaret Konantz who was appointed to the Labour Board, or the Honourable Ro land ,Michener who headed the commission which brought forth the Michener Report which we referred to tonight, and who in due course received other appointments, another appointment fr om another jurisdiction and indeed I understand by the paper he's been thought of for another appointment.

So, Mr. Chairman, these together with a long list that I am sure all of you could recall, including Mr. Robert Smellie the Chairman of the Boundaries Commission, are all honourable, capable, well respected citizens and they justly deserve their appointments. ':Because of their abilities they received their appoint ments and they will serve to the best of 7their abilities and I am confident they will serve with dedication and with devotion. The honourable member also mentioned the fact that the Chairman of the Boundaries ''commission was receiving some $12, 000 a year.

Now the government realizes that this sti �pend is somewhat less than that paid to the chairman of other boards, but the Chairman of the ;�Boundaries Commission agreed to this figure and at the same time he assured this government :;that he would spend full-time and indeed overtime at his work as Chairman of the Boundaries �Commission whenever his duties so required.

And let me tell this House lhat this Boundaries ::Commission has instituted several research programs which are gradually providing us with :'fmore and more information that will require increasingly more and more time by the members fof the Boundaries Commission in analyzing all this data, in preparing maps, in preparing )'�ecommendations, in holding public meetings throu ghout this province, to discuss directly ,:with the people the proposed boundari es of local government units which might be recommended. This, Mr.

Chairman, is the duty and the responsibility of the commission and I can assure the .:;:members of this Legislature that all the members of the Boundaries Commission including the ,f:chairman are intensely interested in their work that they have undertaken and I know that they �will give of their very best efforts towards providing some satisfactory answers to the local iproblems that beseech us in the province; and I know also that if it means working overtime �lhat they will do so in order to provide some of the answers.

Each and every member of the � oundaries Commission as I said, including the chairman, is prepared to do his very best and �to give of his time and his services. - The Hono urable Member for St. Boniface also said that the Chairman of the Boundaries ;co mmission appears to have a conflict of interest in his activities with the law firm he repre ::sents and the commission itself. Well I can only say to the honourable member that if he wishes �to make such a statement that he really should provide substantial evidence to this effect. And the honourable member I believe also made a reference to Mr.

Michael Posmituck, -;:a member of the Boundaries Commission, "<<lffild as I have already stated in this House, Mr. Chairman, :�hat I have this under consideration and --I have under consideration rather the affidavit that was laid :'-pn the table of the House by the H�nourable Member for Gladstone and that I intend to report on it }i!n due course. _ Now I think, Mr.

Chairman, that! haveanswered as many of the quest ions asih ad written �own, with I noted the exception that I did not reply to one question the Honourable Member for Turtle , ountain asked me, and he mentioned that we did not seem to have provided in estimates any more

2114 March 30, 1967 (M RS. FORBES cont'd) ..•.. monies for grants to municipalities in lieu pf taxes and he wonder ed if I thought taxes were not going to go up in the provinc e. I might tell the honourable member that the amount that we had voted in the 1966-67 estimates, of thatampunttherewas $105, 162. 00 which was unexpended so this year we h3.ve asked for the same vote ,of - what is it .,-$1, 500, 000. 00. MR. FROESE: Mi:.

Chairman, I wasn't in the House the other night when the Urban Development and Municipal Affairs estimates were opened and .therefore this will be my first contribution in connection with this department. My main point in rising has to do with the matter of assessment.' We find that especially this last yea:r we've had such very large increases in assessment take place in rural munici palities.

I lmow for the ones in my riding, both Rhine land and Stanley, they were practically double in one case and I think more than double in the other and this seems rather strange that you would have increases of that size and nature take place. Individual farms actually were tripled. We've had many cases where farmers' lands were assessed at 3, O.Oo, 3, 300 a quarter and now they're well over 9, 000 even almost 10,000 n:ow per quarter, and I feel this is ridicu lous, this is way out of line.

Apparently what is happening in our particular area is that the lighter type solls are in creased so substantially on the basis that this is garden land or for special crops - and mind you, Mr. Chairman, all these people cannot grow potatoes or ,these high priced special crops - they are strictly in grain growing and they cannot afford to pay the taxes; on this. basis or with these large increases in assessment, and I think this matter should be looked into, this is something that we cannot just let go on that basis.

The Courts of Revision that. took place, in one municipality I think you had 160-odd cases that appeared before a Court of Eevision - in the next one I forget how many but they had a large number, they had sitting�' of three or four days for these courts that took place, and in my opinion they are almost a farce by now because very very little was done at these Courts of Revisions.

We .heard of a case here of the nine municipalities that were represented here yesterday and the meeting that was held . here at noon and the problem that was presented by these people ,of the situation in their muni cipalities which is surrounding the Greater Winnipeg area where you probably have more or less the same thing taking place. And then I'm just wondering whether. the assessors that at tend these Courts of Revisions in the rural municipalities, whether they really care.

On one occasion one party just went curling, so I don't think they cared very much; who can take a matter serious if the Courts of Revisions are held on that basis?

Then, I think the formula used in arriving at the assessment is not practical-when you 're using the selling price of land and probably only a few parcels are changing hands .in a giVen year in a municipality, some of these might be bought up by neighbouring farmers who because, of the land being adjacent to their farm pay abnormally high prices for .these particular lands and on that basis now we find .that the assessments are being made for the whole municipalities, and I think this is not right.

I'm sure that if more land was sold .in .these municipalities that the price wouldn'd hold up and that you would have a truer picture ,and that you wouldn't. have such an inflated price for these parcels that are being sold. And I would like to ask the Min-: ister to what extent is productivity a measure for assessment purpose!). It seemed to me at the meeting yesterday that this was almost ruled out and that the selling price was .the big factor.

It was mentioned here tonight that the Boundaries Commission has. been set up and that this commission will now take charge of the situation and look into the matter.and most likely bring in a report. I'm just wondering whether the people in Manitoba really. !:>elieve in .this commission the way the Minister does. I think some look on this commission .with r.ather - well, how should I put it, I don't want to use an unparliamentary term but certainly they don't --( Interjection: Pride?) --Pardon? --(Interjection: Pride.) --No, definitely not pride, that's for sure.

I think they have some real doubts in their minds about this commission and what it will perform and whether they'll assess the matter properly, To my way of thinking the answer lies in the Courts of Revision to a large extent for these cases such as were brought to the attention of the meeting yesterday afternoon. I think we should give more powers to these Courts of Revision so that they c.ould take loca.L matters into consideration and that adjustments could be made on that basis..

We know from past ex periences - and I have one case in one of the neighbouring towns, where just outside ofthe town so to speak, he had a parcel that was subdivided but it was never.sold and yet the farmer now has to pay very high taxes on this property because of it and he was. noLaware at the time that the subdivision was made that this would happen and that the· taxes woulcl be increased by that amount as a result.

March 30, 1967 2115 (MR. FROESE cont'd) .. , .. And I know of another case near Brandon whare a farmer was asked to pay some $4, 500 in taxes on two qaarters. I'm sure the member from Brandon must know about this; and where the lawyer who was in charge apparently did not act in time and as a re sult he was too late for an appeal, but finally he got it reduced to some 3, 000; but just take intb consideration $3, 000 ·worth of taxes for two quarters.

This is confiscation by taxation, and I think this wa:s brought to us quite s:rongly yesterday at that meeting that this is what is happening in Manitoba if we allow these things to go on, that we're not making proper assessments of these properties and letting them go far beyond reason.

Then too because of these large increases in assessment in these areas and when other areas are not re-assessed at the same time they are called upon to pay much larger amounts to the Provincial Treasury or at least have credits against future grants in this respect, and that they will pay much larger portions than other parts of the province where you do not have this re-assessment take place. For one thing we were advised yesterday, for instance East St.

Paul, they hadn't had a re-assessment from 1955 to 1966 - 11 years - and then you have a terrific jump. · Pm just wondering, were there no adjustments made or how iS the equalized assessment arrived at in such cases? Are they getting by w ith so much less taxes on the general levy in Manitoba, or what is the case?

In connection w ith municipalities like that how is the equalized assessment arrived at; are you just stopping it in the years where no re-assessment iS made on a: percent age basis, or what criteria or what formula is used in arriving at an equalized assessment during these off years and especially when you have time like ten or eleven: years go by with out' having a re-assessment in'such areas.

This is I think a very important matter and that we should discuss iil committee·here at much greater length and detail in my opinion because I think Ws one of the matters that's very uppermost in the people's mind in rural Manitoba especially because· this affects them very much because of the taxes that they have to pay and I don't think that our rural people should pay higher taxes because of having a poor formula or a poor criteria in which the assessments are being made. . . • . • continued on next page

2116 March 30, 1967 MR. T. P. HILLHOUSE, Q.C. (Selkirk): Mr. Chairman, my remarks are going to be brief and they're going to be confined more or less to a question to the Minister arising out of yesterday's meeting with the representatives from the buffer zone municipalities who had a great deal of criticism to offer against the high assessment of farm lands. At that meeting I suggested that the matter was of such importance that I felt that a special comittee of the House should be set up to deal with it during this session and during recess if necessary.

And to my suggestion the Minister suggested that a counter suggestion that this matter should be referred to the committee on Municipal Affairs. I find on checking over the number of members in that committee, there are 27, and I feel that this matter is of such importance and of such urge ncy that it should be referred to a much smaller committee than the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs and I would very much appreciate the Minister making an announcement tonight if possible on what the intentions of the government are in respect of setting up that committee and how soon that committee will be set up. MR.

LEONARD A. BARKMAN (Carillon): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. While it may be a bit belated I would like to extend my sincere congratulations to the Deputy Minister and the gentlemen that have so ably served the municipal department - and while I do not wish to go into names, but people like Mr. Johnson, Mr. Reimer, Mr. Hogan, Mr. Whiting, Mr. Rich mond and so on, one could go on for a long time -and having had the opportunity of working with them personally for some time I wish to express my sincere feeling that it has been appreciated the way they have served in their capacity. Mr.

Chairman, I wish to bring up a matter that I feel that I possibly should have brought up sooner but ending last December 31st this government has had some time to study the program they proposed beginning the 1st of January in 1965. And when I talk about the program I'm sure that Madam Minister knows I'm referring to the program where the govern ment took over more of the municipal roads and more of the costs of bridges and of course drainage. Possibly since the departments have changed it might not be the proper place to speak of drainage but a lot could be said under that department.

This was the time when this government undertook to change the old system from the 60/40 basis and the regular 10,500 grants to the municipalities and I for one thought for a while that it was possibly affecting towns and villages more than rural municipalities but I am convinced at least in my constituency that as far as grants are concerned - and I mean affecting them adversely - that in the whole of my constituency I believe that this constituency has received quite a bit less since this new formula was put into effect.

I'm inclined to agree with this government and I think this has been said that some municipalities have gained; I don't think there's any doubt about that. But, Mr. Chairman, too many of these municipalities that have gained were really very much in need of help and I am happy that they did get the help. This is not the1point I'm trying to make, but I believe that we have to face the facts here that many of the other municipalities have not received as much as they did before -before this system came into effect.

Leave alone -and I think I should mention this at this time - leave alone the confusion that this has caused - and I'm thinking now of a farmer that perhaps has awaited a decision by a municipality and a muni cipality awaiting a decision by the province and where the province tells this farmer when he comes in they will inform the municipality and so it goes on and on and by the time the farmer is through, has been down to 4 or 5 different departments and possibly down to 3 or 4 different buildings, he seems to be a little bit disgusted: Now, Mr.

Chairman, this example could refer to a farmer being confused about what roads are going to be built in his area or what bridges for that matter or what type of drainage program is taking place. But after all .• •• • MR. CHAIRMAN: I hate to interrupt the honourable member here but I think that he's on an issue that should have come before the Minister of Highways; I don't think this is related to Municipal Affairs. We're discussing now the grant structure set up by the Department of Highways. MR.

BARKMAN: Well, I thought the Minister had mentioned drains there before but I will try and get at the point and my point is this, this is after all a municipal matter, and by the time this farmer is through this rigamorale he is a confused man and you can't really blame the municipal man or the council, you can't really blame them; you can't really blame the civil servant that had been trying to find out what the government's policy would apply - which one might apply in his case - and you can't really blame the farmer because surely all his past, present and future plans are tied up in that farm of his.

This is basically, Mr. Chairman, the point I'm trying to make and I hope that this department - in fact I beg this department that some of this confusion, it has taken place and I could mention names if I wanted

March 30, 1967 (MR. BARKMAN, cont'd) ..••• to, but that's not my point. I think after two years of trylDg this system, I hope some of this confusion will be picked up. · Now, Mr. Chairman, back to the main point then. When I mentioned that this new set up seems to be detrimental to the better ·so-called organized municipalities -and again please don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to say that the other municipalities should not have received the monies that they received.

There is no question in my mind that they should have but I feel that some of the municipalitie-s were possibly a little more organized than others to prove my point I hope to bring up a few figures. And here are a few examples of what happening for example in the constituency of Carillon. These are the payments received of following municipalities and I just took the ones -and some municipalities are only partially in the constituency. Take the R.M. of De Salaberry, received in 1965-66 the sum of $26,900.00. I'll use round figures. And in 1963-64 received $30,765.00.

The rural municipality of'Hanover in 1965-66 received $51,029.00. In 1963-64 they received $101,358.00. Then the Town of Morris which does not belong to a constituency so I'll take only the Rural Municipality of Morris and here they received $61,550 in 1965-66 and $17,859 in '63-64; The Municipality of La Broquerie received $17, 560 and in 163-64 received $17, 859.00. And I'll mention only one' !nore, the Town of Steinbach received $24,451 in '65-66 and $27,867 in 1963-64. Well, Mr.

" Chairman, and I don't know, but I'm of the opinion that the 166 figures might even include some of the equipment which was rented, which was not really in effect in 1963 or '64. Now I don't want to have the Minister think, Mr. Chairman, that I am thinking along the lines of politics or along the lines of favoritism -I don't believe that -but I hope I'm right that this is true. Mr. Chairman, I think with these figures -and of course the minister will check them out later -I feel that there is a pointilere that must be considered.

I thought I had to bring this . · because so much has been said that this program is better and at least in my constituency I · can't say-that it is. Furthermore I think we must never forget that we will never have a better grass. root situation ·between the taxpayer and the municipality than we' have today and ·so many ftmes we've heard in this House that -possibly our municipalities should be enlarged. Where· it. is feasible I am not against that; that is not the point.

But I think when some of the new . .. responsibilities that have arisen are besetting these municipalities they can oecome, large so that we)ose some of the contact we wish to have. I wish to bring up another,point, Mr. Chairman. Quite a bit has been said, especially last year, about a revolving system or a revolving fund, either amongst II?-unicipalities with money to invest or on different basis.

I think the Minister last year mentfoned it and now I'm not too sur:e if the former minister had the foresight of knowing the plans for the new praposed foundation single-division program or if he was groping for something but ;I found it very inter when he mentioned last year and he talked about the municipality bo/rr owing for }ower of interest than they can normally borrow elsewhere.

In fact the fo11mer minister. said year that the matter was under study and I'm wondering if the Minister can tell us if it is under study and if it might be implemented sometime in the future and if so if she can us some of the details of that study . . Mr.

C hairman; . one other point that I wish to bring up and that is this: we see to ·the li:l:tster-for the neighboring province to the west -referring to Saskatchewan now -they come with a map -when you're interested in certain parcels of land or when a farmer or· anybody m.11nsr1es to· buy a piece of land, they come out with a map with each parcel of land-having the. · · lll:" .. .,,,,,,.w,e�.u marked on that parcel'of land.

I think this is something· that we could "consider �eCiii.U!!e it's surprising what effect this has on not only potential buyers but it seems to lef � know your province better and the farmers themselves, or the oWn.ers for that matter, better what the situation is. I think when it comes -to the point that they wish to procure buy a parcel of land what coqld be nicer than having a map that has all the parcels of land IIIOJilal•ke.d as to the assessment on each parcel of land. MR. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr.

Chairman, I would like to thank the . ster for trying to answer me on this Boundary Commission but I think that she has missed point completely. ·pl'obably she meant to miss the point, b\lt I wish to set a few things _ �'Wo iiJ.!',!!L, The Minister said that she has high regard for defeated candidates, politicil.l candi • · Well, we might have for some and not ·for others. I mean it doesn.'t change anything· the person because he's a · defeated candidate and I don't want her . to think for a nilnu!e: I am attacking or that1 did attack last week any person because they wer•e a�defe�ted -•.u.u.tue at all.

The ·Minister said that the experience is of great vlilue�' I agre�' with those

211 8 March 30, 1967 (MR. DESJARDINS, cont'd) ••••• The Minister also said that the government of the day is the people's choice. I agree with this, too, but when the government -- this is why I always say that the government should take the responsibility and not farm everything out, or whenever there 's any thing that is, any problems, farm this to another group.

I don't believe in governing by commissions and boards the way this government has , so I certainly think that this government is the people's choice, But when the government goes through the motions of setting up a commission and calling this an independent commission, that is the point. Now, you have a government's choice ; let the government take the responsibility; but when they say we are naming this commission and this is an independent commission, this is the diffe rence . Now the Minister talks about the different people, how valuable they were and so on. She talks about the Br acken Commission.

The l\Iinister was absolutely right . Br acken did an excellent job. Bracken, who had been the Leader of the Conservative Party, National Conservative Party, was picked by a Liberal Party here . This is my point. He was picked for his ability. He was picked certainly not because l1e was a Liberal . I know, the Minister might say this is done in other jurisdictions . As I said the other day, two wrongs doesn't make a right.

I'm not objecting if the Minister wants to select a well-known Conservative at a certain post, but every single post in this province is filled by Conservatives, ex-candidates, defeated Ministers, old captains and good friends. Mr. Bonnycastle is on this commission. I would say that's an excellent choice, Certainly he's a known Conservative. He was the choice to have this first Metro - there 's no secret about it. This man has had experience . But Mr .

Chairman, out of this list that we have, five of them are defeated Conservative candidates, five of them; The point is are the defeated candidates the only ones that have a monopoly on brains from that Party ? Can the Minister tell me that this -- what I asked, this is the question that I asked . Is this an independent commission? Will the people of Manitoba believe that it's an fudependent commission. Are you going to inspire confidence with this ? Now, we have defeated candidates and organizers and so on of the Cons.ervative Party . You say defeated politicians.

Well, this Boundaries Commission is politics because politics is governing of our affairs, our political affairs . You can't get away from it . And how can a commission, a Boundaries Commission where very close to 100 percent if not 100 percent, all belong to the same political Party be an independent commission? How can that be ? I 1m not saying that there 's anything wrong with any single one of them, but how can that be ?

My point is we're talking about an independent commission and it was brought up the other day that you have a Minimum Wage Board, the chairman is the Pre sident of the Manitoba Conservative Association. Now, if this is the government, if this is theiway they want to rule, to get some of their people in, fine, but let's not go under the pretence that these are independent commissions. There 's another one, we had a D .•.• Inquiry. I understand this was a former Conser-: vative; he was appointed by a Liberal government, and there they were, looking in the lives, in the private lives of individuals.

This was very important. Now I don't object to some , the odd. defeated candidate getting a job, but every single one of them, every single job is filled by these people. We have two of the members here who are very good members; one is on the Hydro Board and the other is on the Telephone Board. We're talking about raising our wages and they're still going to be on these boards. What the people of Manitoba think - that this is a pay-off. This is what we're afraid of. This is a pay-off. One for us . If you don't make it we '11 take care of you. You can't lose; this is a good deal. I' ve had three elections in St .

Boniface. Every one of these Conservative candidates that ran against me's got a job . This is why I said to you I'm thinking of running against myself; maybe I '11 get a good job! So I don't think that this is right, and I want the Minister to answer this point. And I also -- the second point that I brought up was the question of conflict of interest. Well we have a gentleman her� who is a very good man, I believe - I don't know him that well -w ho is the Mayor of Assiniboia, and he's seeking city status for Assiniboia and he 's on the Boundaries Commission. That is not conflict of interest ?

This is not conflict of interest ? What is conflict of interests ? And I said the same thing about the Chairman. The Chairman was appearing in front of different municipalities, one municipality whose mayor is the solici� tor for the Boundaries Commision, Now, we're playing with fire, Mr . Chairman. This is going to be pretty tough and you're certainly not inspiring confidence to the people of Manitoba when you do things like that .

March 30, '1967 2119 (MR. DESJARDINS , cont'd) ••••• Another point that I said was, what about the -- we were told; the First Minister stpod in his chair early in the session. when I asked him a question and he said, "Yes ?" I said "Is the job of Chairman of this Boundaries Comm ission a full-time job ?'' He said, "Yes, it is ." I sent him a statement that he hadn't seen where the Chairman said, "It is definitely not a full-time job and the government knows it, the Minister knows it, because I would have. refused to accept it.

I'm starting a law practice and this is more important to me ." My remarks are no reflection on this gentleman and he is; I 'm told that he 's practicing law more than half the time, three quarters of the time , sometimes for weeks . Will the Minister stand there and say, "I 'm assured that he 'll take all the time that he wants. He assures me of this ." You 're paying these people for this.

We're told that it's going -- yes, I should say, "We are" -- and we 're. told that it's going· to take five years or so and this gentleman, very straightforward to his credit, said,"I am not accepting this job as it's a full-:time job ." The Minister said something about the $1 2, 000 salary. I never said anything about that. It's not that much for a full-time job, I agree, but it's a lot if you're going to go once a day, once a week or so.

I don't know how often he 's going to go.· And if he has a case in court or something he 'll tell the rest of the members, "No, I can't show up today, I' m busy ?" And I say there is conflict. There is bound to be conflict of interest, and that is not right. Now name some of your friends, but don't expect the people of Manitoba .and the members of this House to be gullible enough to say that we believe all this and we think that. the brains, that you people have cornered all the brains in Manitoba. There must be a little left. A little left.

If we would have seen an NDP -a t least if you'd have tried.to play smart politics if you want to play politic s, an.d. get an NDP member so you could point to him and say, "Well, here we've got an NDP member ." But you 're even too arrogant for that now. You 're not afraid of anything. Bing! Bang! Bang! Thi13 is the choice of the people . We said it; this is it . And you expect the people of Manitoba to have confidence in ••••• Now the Minister, Mr . Chairman, made a statement about this Mr. P osmituck who I' ve never met.

He says, "I 'll decide what we're going to do with this gE)ntleman in due course." Well 'due course' is now. We are dealing with this now and we want to know. This man -- you said, "B ring us proof" . We brought you proof, and this gentleman acimitted that he said that. "O h" , he sa id, "I was joking. You should understand that." You don't joke with things like that. You don't joke with things like that. He admitted that he said. it and there's no other way out. This man's got to go.

He 's got to go; you don't make statements and say, "Yo u voted the wrong way; you 're not going to get anything." And this is what he said. If he wants to joke, let him joke outside of the Boundaries Commi ssion. And you can answer this, Mr. Chairman, what I said about the Mayor of Assiniboia, and this has nothing to do -- I .met the gentleman a few times . As far as I'm concerned he 's a good man; he 's the mayor of a municipality; but he is seeking status for his city and they are going to go to the Boundaries Commission for that and he 's on the Boundaries Comm ission.

Now if that's not conflict of interest, I don't know what is . Now one more the Minister might -- I thought might answer some of these , the other questions that I ·had . Oh, here .it is. It seems like the political people are getting bravf:) now because everything is done above board; you don't hide anything now; and mo13tly people serving in public life are very conscious of salaries and wages now. The Metro Council are asking for higher wages. They think they're justified.

The mayors of different municipalitie s, aldermen , :reeves are asking for the same thing,and it seems that they are all asking for the same as the MLA's . Now I think that they're entitled to know if the government intends to do anything on this at all . I wonder if the Minister, when she answers all these questions if she can answer this to give us the policy on the government. Does the government intend to do anything on this, any clear policy on this ? There 's another thing that the Minister, I would like her to clarify. We didn't want to say too much .

As you know, we were very co-operative , we from this side of the House, in passing this tax bill . We didn't want to delay things too long so I kept this for the estimate. [ would like either the gentleman concerned, or the Minister might explain the statement that was made . I think it is very important. The Minister of Highways in this famous meetings in a report in the Neepawa Pr ess, said that he suggests that a provincial sales tax could result in decreases in municipal taxes, and we 've had caucus after caucus trying to find out how that's going to happen and we 're licked. I wonder if we co uld find out.

We felt that if the -- especially with some of these sales taxes going on municipalities for the Metro will have to pay the hospitals

:?1 20 March 30, 1967 (MR. DESJARDINS, cont'd) ..•.• will have to pay, we felt that it will increase the taxes. Now if you would be good enough, Mr . Chairman, either the gentleman or the Minister might elaborate on this a little more . I think it would be helpful for the people of Manitoba. MR . SAUL MILLER (Seven Oaks) : Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the Minister for the detailed reply she gave to many of the ques tions I posed the other night. However, there 's one item that she didn 't mention and I think it's a very important one. I wonder whether she just overlooked it.

It's the one I brought up in connection with the leaseholders or renters and their posi tion with re gard to voting on money by-laws or holding office . These people are disqualified at the present time. It's a situa tion that has been in existence in Manitoba for many yea rs.

It's I think a very unfair one, particula rly the lease holder type where they do buy a home and they pay, as I said, $16, 000 , $17, 000 for a home but aren't considered ratepayers beca use they don't actually own the land on which the house is situated, and I think I pointed out to her the other night that if we go into condominium housing then this problem will again arise, and I think Ma nitoba has to recognize that we 're getting into a new type of ownership and that these people should not be deprived of the rights which are basic to ratepayers or land holders or land owners as we have classi cally known, There's one other point I would like to bring out, it's this, the Minister in replying seemed to crea te a picture as if there was a disa greement between the Member from Turtle Mountain and myself and I think in doing so she tried to convey to this House that this shows why the government has to move cautiously and this shows why the government is perhaps not moving at all .

The truth of the matter is there is no conflict between the Member for Turtle Mountain and myself, the Member for Carillon too mentioned it tonight, they both fear centralization, they fear the centralization which is coming about beca use the vitality of the municipality is being sapped and is being sappe d, as I say , because the re alty tax which was used at one time to serve the local area and to re solve local problems is no longer being used for that.

That 's why I sugge sted the other night that if we take away from the municipality those re sponsibilities which they shouldn 't have today such as health, welfare and education , they'll then be able to do the job for which they 're elected and they won't fear that their strength and their vitality is being dis sipated by undertaking projects which they can't handle. So I don't think there 's any conflict of interes t.

She goes on further to say that because of this conflict of interest or disparity of views that the government therefore has to examine all aspects before action is taken - I think those are the words she used - and that the initiative for change must corhe from the local sources - that is from the local municipal areas . Mr . Chairman , the local people have spoken not once but a dozen times and this Minister is doing what other ministers before have done - and I' m not blaming the departmental heads because I think that they are simply following the policies laid down by the various ministers .

The municipal people of this province have time and again been asked to give their views , to make rec ommendation. They did it, they did it by their submissions before the Fisher Commission; they did it by their submissions to the Michener Commissi on. The re 's 72 recommendations in the Michener Report . The Minister tells us we 're dealing with them - she mentions a few - I think there were 10 that they have started to deal with, not entirely but partially .

The report came out in 1964 , that's about an average of 3 a year - 72 recommendations - it will take 24 years before all the recommenda tions are acted on. By that time I' m sure we 'll have another commission. I think this is what I feel is the most serious problem which this government has created; it doesn't govern by commissi on -i t hides behind commission . This is the point. If they governed by commis sions, I don't approve of it, but at least I' d accept that as their thinking; but they hide behind it. They appoint a commiss ion when the press ure to make changes becomes too acute .

When the municipalities come to them and say we can't do this or we don't want to do this and we would like these changes they say, you're right; we'll appoint a commissi on to study it. Then they appoint a commiss ion - not necessa rily made up of municipal people as in the case of the Boundary Commis sion , I'm not sure how many have actual municipal experience -b ut they're the ones who are going to study it .

So they study it and they make recommenda tions and after all that we come back and we hear the Minister say that the government mus t move slowly beca use after all the initiative must come from the local areas, and we 're back where we started from. I suppose two yea rs from now we 'll have another Royal Commissio n to hear again the briefs presented by the variou s local municipa litie s. I think that in inter preting the debate that took place the other night in that way , the Minister is either misunde r standing our remarks or misco nstruing them in order to protect the position the government is

.MILLER, cont'd) .•••• taking. . . _ . 2121 I would _ like to ask a question that I miss!'ld .the other night and it deRls really with the of grants in lieu of- taxes. �re the crqwn agencies today paying full grant.15 in lieu of s; and-is. the_ province paying full grants in lieu of taxes, because this I know has always a sore point, of municipalities. These areJwo recommendations in the Michener report . have been asked for consistently by every brief-and every submission ever made to the . t and yet I'm, wonde!ring whether action on these two has been taken.

There are other · s I will take up but I'll take them up as they come along in the estimates, Mr. Chairman. MR . JOHNSTON: If the minister wishes to rise to reply, I'd be glad to give way. Mr. , there's one or two remarks I'd like to make about the work of municipal councils Jn·the Province of Manitoba. I think in the past few years the work of a councillor or mayor become !ncreasingly complex where these people are dealing with bond issues to finance dr·ainage and paving, waterworks expansion.

Now I think they're going to be going. more into public housing because both the province and the federal governments are urging .them in this , direction, so I think that our councillors should be given some more direction and assistance they have required in the past. We've seen what happened last year in Portage la Prairie and now again this ye;�.r in an River.

In many cases it could be the case of a pel" son being_ orr council who is a business .and he's used to doing. business in a rather efficieut manner in his way of thbiking but . s he hasn't taken the time to study the Municipal Act in the manner he should have or · ·: �rhaps the secretary-treasurer has not been as good as he should have either, So I think the., Department · of Municipal Affairs should prepare a can-do and a cannot-do booklet that all new �ouncillors should get.

We. have a rule book in this House - it's very. small and compact and sim ple but if deeper points of law are required then we have Beauchesne and Mays and VaTlous : t'"'"""'v"'"" of each; I think all existing members of councils and new members of council should .a booklet that is available to them so they can study and make use of it.

Now further in that regard I think that there. should. be a change made in the oath that new councillor takes when he comes on or when council J;'enew their oath of office, pointing their respons1,bilities in a much more detailed mann er - that they're dealing. wfth in many hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars that they should be made more aware of , responsibilitie!1 and more aware of what can happe.ri if someone should make an error as we've · seen-twice at least bi the last two yeaTS in Manitoba • .

Now ! .have a ·case . here where - and it's .to do probably. with these inquiries, the Portage last year. But I have a case here where there's c -onflicting advice comf!ng from the on what council should be doing. You know I guess it's an old trick \of government there's something unpleasant to say, the Minister doesn't say it he gets a Depucy Minister before conventions or go. before gatherings to set the people straight,givejthe unpalatable · lll"""J""·w"' as it were. Dn November 25th iii · the Portage Graphic there's a rathe� detailed account Deputy Minister 6f· Municipal Affairs, Mr.

Chappel, who was addressirig the Union of •·�<UJ•nc•u .. Municipalities Convention the night before·; and one of the recommenda tions he made was . municipalities should stop o�erspending, that was the main one, and he quoted a number of muni s that had oversp eut their budgets and this is sound advice. Perhaps he should.give some of· 8:dvice to the government too -I don'tknow. But he said and! quote from the news

article here;· . of the suggestions to cut· expenses made by Mr. Chappel. was using fewer ccmsultants on f:"""""'"' J" work.He said this is' often unnecessary and always. expensive. He added however the �''""wLi"J" should use a solicitor . and not the municipal clerk to deal with legal matters. Now, .Mr� .Chairman; he did say, •aud I remind the .committee again, that council use fewer consultants on council work.

Well when the Portage Inquiry was instituted . a report was. made ' on the findings of the board that was carrying out the inquiry, one of the recommendations they made was that -and I'll just quote from this part of the report that 1s condensed into a news item. The report said "that council should review its method of in respect to claims·arising from expropriation for the ov.erpass and claims from . �·-�"'"-'"'��"' oll the mun1cipal lagoon. It should also make greater use of professional advice." So think these two points of view should be reconciled somewhere and the Minister .and her.

Minister should ;perhaps clear up this point and maybe issue a directtye.'or issue . lf:lmother booklet as. to what kind of p�<;>fessi,onal· advice council should take aild,\Vhat.ldnd they. )E:I!IlOlll.d ·reject. ··-I'm )lOt)too sure myself althoug)l I .diq:have four years of councff :\\'?t� in · ':;o:;· .. :.£ :; _; ;� \ ;. . �. .1 ;/, -� " . N00r one. other)hihg� .perhaps I!d like t� co�pliip,ent the Minister on this-one. · Last < . ·• , • • - . . " � • • "'.:-- -� A

21 22 March 30, 1967 (MR.

MILLER , cont'd) .• ••• year when the Portage Inquiry was announced, it was announced by the Minister of Municipal Affairs in the Legis lature and it was a he adline story across the province and in the opinion of many people in Portage and els ewhere this type of an announce ment and the statement of the Minister that went along with the announcement led many people to believe that there was something really wrong - that there may have even been not only unusual procedures but there may have been forms of corruption or something of a scandalous nature and I believe this type of an announcement certainly doesn't do any town or city or municipality any good.

I think it hurts the whole tovm or the city; it hurts the industrial development prospects and it also casts serious reflections on present and past members of council and I' m glad to see that the minister didn 't re sort to that method when the Swan River probe became known to the newspaper . As I under stand it the Swan River probe became known when the pre ss people saw the Bill and then they - the story came out that wa y.

But last year when the former Minister of Municipal Affairs was fully aw are of the difficulties at Portage, in January I believe , yet he saw fit to wait until May 2nd, I believe it was , to announce an inquiry and he announced it publicly. I would think that he should have - if he felt an inquiry was necessa ry he should have ordered an investigation and then announced the res ults and not done it in the manner that it was done .

So, I myself can sympathize with the members of the Swan River council and there 's cer tainly no indication in the news story that the individual members of council have a reflection cast upon them and I would just like to say to the Minister that I think she did the right thing in not announcing an inquiry in the way it was done last year . The Honourable Member for St . Boniface has pretty well covered the position of many people with respect to a politically oriented commission like the Boundaries Commission but I' m rather surprised that this Mr .

Posmituck who has made a statement - and he has admitted to the statement,although he tries to give a different coloration to it -I 'm ra ther surprised that in debate before the school vote rece ss that the Minister of Education spoke to my honour able friend from Gla dstone here and said give me the name of this person , and I think he said give me the proof, and I' ll see that he 's put off that board; and I' m ra ther surprised that the Minister is taking this much time to make the decision when it's so open and shut as it is .

The Minister of Educa tion has stated his stand on the matter that anybody who has compromised or prejudiced his position - there shouldn't be any great period of thought given to the matter and I think that person should be removed forthwith. The evidence is in, the Minister of Educ ation is in agreement and I think it's up to the Minister of Municipal Affairs to exercise her responsibilities in this matter . MR. CHAIRMAN: .••.• passed. MR. SHOE MAKER: Well, I was going to seced e to the Mini� ter if the Minister wanted to get up now ? Well, Mr .

Chairman, I suppose that just about everybody in the House would expect that I might want to say something on the Boundaries Commision, and I do not intend at this time to make any comment at all other than what I have already done in respect to one of the members of the commission.

I stated on radio and TV that the next move was up to thee; government and I' m just going to leave it at that, and enough has probably been said about it, Howev er, I do want to ask my honourable friend some questions, and I hope that she is listening because I want to get some definite answers to this. \Vhat has been the cost of the Michener Commission, the cost of the Fisher Commi ss ion, the cost of the Greater Winnipeg Investigation Commission, and there was one other one I bel ieve - the Provincial Municipal Committee -- "A Provincial Municipal Committee -- "A Pr ovincial Municipal Committee after much work reported to the Legis lature in 195 3" -I don 't reca ll the name of it, but it appeared to me that here are at least four commissions that has probably cost the taxpayers upwards to a half a million dollars to date , the four of them .

I think - I' m not cer tain -b ut I thought the Michener alone cost something like a quarter of a million, I' m not certain but this is the reason I' m asking these questions . And lo and behold in the estimates this year I find under Res olution No . 111, Mr. Chairman, there is in the estimates $227 ,9 14 for the Local Government Boundaries Commission. so that's over a quarter of a million dollars that we are expected to pass for another commission. This will make the fifth commission as I understand it that has been set up to look into the boundaries of local govern-' ment.

I notice that I' m not alone in my thinking in this regard because an

article appearing August 25th on the editorial page of the Free Pr ess, I think two days after the commission· named -I believe the commission was officially named on or about August 23 rd - yes , or bably August 22 nd, it doesn't matter - this editorial appeared on August 25th . The Free

arch 30, 196 7 21 23 >MR. SHOEMAKER , cont 'd) .•.• • editor says that the commiss ion members for some reason -eem to think that their job should take them anywhere from three to five years with initial studi es to take several years at least . This surely is not neces sary for Manito ba's local � overnment problems have already been studied in great depth -- and they go on to mention � out the l\!ichener Commiss ion and the other commissions that I have already set out.

Thus �;th ey say the groundwork has been laid, the new commis sion will need to be thorough but it · not forget that it was constituted as a Boundaries Commission and not another commis- of enquiry. But it seems to me that a quarter of a million dollars, in fact there 's over quarter of a million dollars in the esti mates that we are to put at the disposa l of this oundaries Commi ssion. So I think it would be helpful to the House and helpful to the tax >cn:lve,rs of this province to know just what has been spent on commissions of this kind, the that I have mentione d to date .

We know what this one is going to cost . l\Ir. Chairman , I wonder if the bill - has there been any amendments to the bill that passed last year ? Have we any amendments to it since it was first pass ed? I' m trying find it here somewhere . But there was one in 1965 that we didn't pass; I think it was with <Mllnuvu:· and then there was another one passed last year to set it up, but I can' t find it at the <':�' v'-'•"''-' , Mr. Chairman. Perhaps you could lend me yours, you must have one handy there , , I have it here, I have ithere, I have it here. Very good.

This was Bill 105 last year, an to est ablish a commiss ion to reco mmend the reorganization of boundaries of local govern units, assented to in 1966 , and goes on to define a commi ssion and local government and a member, means a member of the commi ssio n and so on. Membership: "The ttf:v·�= ..... ssi on shall consist of not less than seven persons appointed by the Lieutenant-Governor � .. u.-,,v cu.-.u." And isn't it a fact that the commiss ion has in fact double that number on it , l(t�'"',.t"''" in number, The Bill provided for seven .

And over on the next page - there may have been amendment s but I don' t recall them . the next page it says: "The Lieutenant-Govern or-in-Co uncil shall appoint one member to Chairman of the Commissi on and one or more members to be Vice -Chairm an. The I;'CornLmllss ion may adopt rules governing its own procedure" - they can do what they like , and then it sets out their remuneration and expenses .

Separate commit te es: "Fo r purpose of holding separate hearings the Commissio n may est ablish committe es of not r than three members each and each committee shall have as one of its members either Chairman or the Vice-Chairman" - so that they can set up a committee of three - it says: hearing held by a committee established under Subsectio n (7 ) shall be deemed to be a of the commis sion .

Four members cons titut e a quorum for a mee�ing of the commis , but two members constit ute a quorum for the hearing or setting of a committee .' ' Well I interpret that , any two members of the commiss ion can go out and hold a hearing any- in the Province of Manitob a and that constit ute s a hearing of the committee - just two s of the committee can do that . Unless of course there has been amendments made the Act, and I don't recall that this happened.

Well surely to goodness if two members can out and act with all the authority of the Boundaries Commi ssion, we don't need 14 on it; of course it is their intention to hold seven hearings at seven different times in seven places throughout the provinc e, I would like to have some clar ification in respect Then it goes on to talk about the staff: "The commission may employ and fix the s of the staff as it may from time to time require ." They can hire technical and ssio nal adviso rs, sets out the costs, and as I said before they can make all of their rules and do what they like , according to the Act .

So I would certa inly like my honour friend the Minister to elaborate on this ; And the term of office: "The Lieutenant OVE3rntor-irt-Co uncil may fix the term for which a member shall hold office but if no term of is fixed for a member he shall hold office during pleasure ." So I suppose that if the � .... ,,,,,v .. members want to find it a ple asure to be on the commis sion, why they can stay at the ir pleasure . Some of these thi ngs I think need to be cleared up. Sect ion (8) - setting out the priorit ie s: "The commiss ion shall give the following si n the preparation s of plans and making of report s, (

a) First, to the preparation a plan and the making of a report recommending the territory to be include d in on the LllUarJ,es of proposed school areas , school divi sions, school districts and vocational school " - that 's the one I was talking about - "each of which as far as possi ble would have a count sufficient to operate an efficient school system, except where geographic patte rns" so on. Now where do we stand now ? My honourable friend the Attorney -General has

7124 March 30, 1967 (MR . SHOE MAKER , cont 'd) .• ••• signalled me to stop talking so he can adj ourn the House, and I will be very happy to co-operate with him , Mr . Chairman . MR . LYON: Mr . Chairman , I move the committee rise . MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee ri se . Call in the Speak er . Mr . Speak er , the Committee of Supply has considered a certain res olution and directed me to report the same and ask leave to sit again . IN SESSION M:R . DOUGLAS J. WATT (Arthur) Mr . Speak er , I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Springfi eld that the report of the Committee be received. MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion ca rrie d, MR. LYON : Mr . Speak er, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Welfare that the House do now adjourn . MR. SPEAKER prese nted the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House adjourned until 10:00 o' clock Fri day morning .

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	28-1-90
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	28th 1st hansardpdf 90.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	f964fb40f111659223fc04b1d0f68753215ab306

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