VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. TUEDSAY, APRIL 19, 1983 NO. 23

April 19, 1983 Tape 1149 EC - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. MARSHALL: Mr. SPEAKER: of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Order, please! Mr. Speaker. The hon. the President Before the House proceedings commence, I would like to draw to the attention of hon. members the fact that the mother of the member for Twillingate - the member for Twillingate being Mrs. Reid passed away early this morning. I know all members would wish to be associated with me when I propose a message of sympathy from the members of the House to her on the passing of her mother.

At the same time, I could note - which I know your Honour will be noting as well - I believe there is a delegation from Fairbanks in her district either here now or will be here later on this afternoon, which Mrs. Reid would otherwise be accompanying had not this unfortunate occasion occurred. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we would like to join with the Government House ,Leader (Mr. Marshall) in expressing our deepest sympathy to the member for Twillingate on the sad passing of her mother. MR.

SPEAKER: I would like to welcome a delegation from the Local Development Improvement Committee of Fairbanks in the district of Twillingate; Chairman, Mr. Ross Curlew, the Vice-Chairman, Mr. Warrick Rogers and other members, Harvey Gillard, 2520

April 19, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Clarence Hillier. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Tape 1149 Leslie Hillier and Hear, hear! STATEME NTS BY M INISTERS MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER: the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. the Presideat of Mr. Speaker, I have a statement to make with respect to the current status of the Cat Arm hydro-electric development project, and at the same time it gives me an opportunity to present the very positive news to the House of the provision of 750 jobs this year as a result of that particular development. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~m.

MARSHALL: The statement reads as follows, Mr. Speaker: ··I am pleased to present an updated report on the Cat Arm development which I will be tabling before the House, Mr. Speaker. A major element of this report is it shows the project will provide in . the vicinity of 750 jobs this year. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL : ·This is a major impact upon the employment picture of this Province at -a time when national and international conditions militate against development. The Cat Arm project has been underway since May of 1981 2521

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1150 JV - 1 MR. MARSHALL: and its completion date is currently scheduled for June of 1985. The electric generating station to be located in Devil Cove on the East shore of the Great Northern Peninsula,will add 127 MW to the generating capability of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro.

On an annual basis, it will have the capacity of displacing 1.1 million barrels of oil, the consequential savings to the consuming public Employment on the project peaked in 1982 at 650 persons, almost half of whom were engaged in the clearing of wood from the reservoir area and along the transmission line rights-of-way between Cat Arm and Corner Brook. As indicated, peak employment for 1983 is forecasted at 750 jobs. This will have a significant impact upon wages earned this year. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, approximately $90 million in wages will be paid out over the entire construction period. ·As with all projects over which this Province has control, preference for employment was given to residents in the Province. It is noteworthy, Mr. Speaker, that of the 650 jobs provi.ded by the project in 1982, 641 of them were filled by Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. Mr . Speaker, I make that statement and I note that that is the way in which the Provincial Government attends to things.

We would never think of bragging about a use of our resource and employment from one of our resources that merely resulted in 50 per cent of the employees being residents of the Province of Newfoundland. 2522

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1150 JV -2 MR. MARSHALL: Last June, I reported to the House that if inflation remained at the then existing high level, interest rates remained in the area of 15 per cent, and a difficult construction environment continued to hamper the overall schedule, then the final capital cost of the project could reach $449 million. Fortunately, Mr. Speaker, I can report that the last ten months have seen a lessening of impact of these unfavourable factors.

Inflation is down; interest rates have dropped, and weather conditions during the winter of 1983 proved to be extremely favourable from a construction viewpoint. Another factor is the keen competitive nature· of the construction sector which resulted in first class construction firms being awarded publicly tendered jobs at extremely competitive prices. As a result, Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to report the latest projection of the cost of the Cat Arm project is now $375 million, which is some $75 million less than I reported at the last time I £urnished a report to this House. 2523

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1151 MJ - 1 MR. W. MARSHALL: 'At this point in time we are encouraged by the momentum that has been built up at the construction site and which is an obvious absolute necessity for a construction project of this size. We are also optimistic that financing costs will remain at the existing low levels and are pleased that Hydro and Cat Arm consultants are examining all possibilities for improving the on-power date of June 1 1985. Therefore,the cost effectiveness of the project has improved and the future impact on the consumer from that previously projected has been considerably lessened.

Efforts will continue to take all measures feasible to lessen this impact as far as possible. During the important construction season of l983 ,Hydro will be concentrating its efforts on bringing the final capital cost below the $375 ------ ... milli0n· and on improving the on-power date. ·I should also point out, Mr. Speaker, that Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro has just recently b~ought the Upper Salmon project on stream in the Bay d'Espoir area. This,-project, which is estimated to cost in the vicinity of $165 million; . has added a further eighty-four megawatts to the generating capability of Hydro's system.

It has an energy producing capability which will reduce oil consumption in Holyrood by approximately 800,000 ~ barrels of oil a year. Both of these projects will represent a significant displacement of independence on oil for electrical generation with consequently savings to consumers. It should be noted, Mr. Speaker, once Cat Arm is completed the Province will have run out of environmentally acceptable hydro sites of any major significance. It must also be observed, Mr. Speaker, had we been treated fairly and as equals with our fellow Canadians we would not be in that position.

Indeed with the Lower Churchill on stream, as it would have been had we been permitted our basic rights to 2524

April 19, 1983 Tape No, 1151 MJ - 2 HR. W. MARSHALL: transmit power years ago, we woul~ of had Labrador power on stream at cheaper prices, All o~ this cements our resolve to obtain justice and equity trom our hydro resources and to be able to supply power t~ the owners of that resource at reasonable prices, '·Faced with these factors one 1 should be able to realize why we are anxiously awaiting the outcome of the Water Rights Reversion Act decision from the Supreme Court of Canada so that we can move towards our priority objective of acheiving fairness and equity from the u~tilization of Churchill Falls resource.

MR. S. NEARY: Mr, Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. the Leader of the Opposition, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I think this is the third time now we have had the Cat Arm project announced in this House in a Ministerial Statement. Obviously, Mr. Speaker, the government, the administration, are just groping for some good news to come into the House with, to announce beca~se ·- ··--·- everything seems to be going against them these days and they are trying to dream up and scheme ways to come in and make 2525

April 19, 1983 Tape 115 .2 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: good news announcements for a change to try to get the heat off themselves. The only real significant item in that Ministerial Statement, Mr. Speaker, was the fact that there will now be ·a reduction of $74 million in the overall cost, !f han. members will recall,last year the minister had to come in and make a ministerial statement and tell us that the cost had escalated substantially, that it would cost a total of $449 million to complete the Cat Arm project,much more than was originally allocated for the job. So that is good news. But, Mr.

Speaker, how did that good news come about? Well it came about through the lowering of the inflation rate and the lowering the interest rate. And I believe we have to give the people in Ottawa an a~sist for that saving, the cost now we are told, is in the vicinity of $375 million. And if the Government of Canada can keep the interest rate down and get it down further than it is at the present time the savings could be even much more than that. Or if the interest rate goes up maybe we will have another ministerial statement announcing a further increase,. ' an escalation of the costs of the Cat Arm project.

It is an ill-wind, you know, Mr. Speaker, that does not blow somebody some good. In these times of rece~sion, in the inflationery period that we are passing through 1competition in the construction industry is savage, and as a result of course the bids are quite competitive on the Cat Arm project and that is another reason why there are savings to Hydro at this particular point of time. The minister addressed himself to the humber of people that would be employed on the Cat Arm project this year, 750, I think he said.

But the minister did not address himself to the problems that are involved in the hiring at Cat Arm, Mr. Speaker, I only heard an item 2526

April 19, 1983 Tape 1152 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: on the radio today where the unemployed in Buchans are going to have a demonstration later on this week. I presented a petition in this House,complaints tbat people in the area had. a.bout not enough busi.ness and not enough jobs going to the local areas,and the minister avoided mentioning these criticisms i.n his Ministerial Statement. We have to again remind the House, ~tr. Speaker, that this project, the Cat Arm project went ahead without any independent environmental study and we were told that tremendous damage_ is being doi.le to the enviror,unent in that area.

But I raised a matter here yesterday and I will raise it again now that I am very concerned about and perhaps the minister might like to comment on it either now or the first opportunity he has in t~e House and that is regarding 50,000 .cords of wood that is going to be covered over with water,that will not be cut, that will not be salvaged, 50,000 cords of wood 2527

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1153 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: in the basin of Cat Arm, some of it on Crown land and some of it on Bow a ter lease· holds. Do we have to compensate Bowater for the wood that they are going to lose as a result of the Cat Arm development? And yesterday I asked a question, why did we not make an effort to salvage this wood? 50,000 cords of good wood is going to be lost forever once the flooding takes place and the basin is flooded, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Time for the Leader of the Opposition's (Mr. Neary) comments has expired. The han. Minister of Development. MR.

WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce that the Canadian Coast Guard vessel Sir John Franklin departed St. John's Monday afternoon to under­ take a research probe into Lake Melville. Scientists aboard the Franklin will collect ice data and study vessel performance in the ice conditions which now exist in the lake for the purpose of assisting in our continuing efforts to determine the technical and economic feasibility · of year-round shipping to a port in the Western region of Lake Melville.

The project is spea~neaded by Department of Development personnel, who expect the voyage to produce information of importance to the prospect of industrial development in the Happy Valley- Goose Bay area, based on Labrador hydro electric power. The Franklin probe has attracted considerable interest and a long list of co­ sponsors and participants. The funding requirements are being provided by the Department of Development, Transport Canada Research and Development Centre, t~e Canadian Coast Gua .rd and by CN Marine. 2528

April 19, 19 83 Tape No. 1153 SD - 2 MR. WINDSOR: On-ice experiments and instrumentation testing will be conducted by scientists from C-Core, Acres Consulting Services and M.P.B. Technologies, who will be assisted by residents of the community of Rigolet. In addition, a comprehensive series of airborne radar fligh~s is planned in order to develop remote sensing techniques for all-weather surveillance of ice conditions from either radar or satellite. All participants in the project recognize the importance of assessing the impact of Winter shipping on the traditional way of life in the region.

A representative of .Memorial University's Institute of Northern studies will aboard the Franklin to assess the impact of ice-breaking on seal herds in the lake. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you,Mr. Speaker. I was surprised that the minister would come in with this announcement today. In fact, it was only about two months ago that the Sir John p·rankl .in was supposed to go down to Lake Melville but for some reason it was postponed until now, the 19th of April.

The minister should realize that at this time of the year the ice is beginning to get soft and there is not going to be any trouble at all for the icebreaker to get in there. One other very important thing the minister s~ould realize is that this channel that the icebreaker will make in the next few days is particularly going to disrupt the hunting activities of the people of Rigolet. The weather is getting warmer, the channel 2529

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1153 so - 3 MR. w~~N: will not freeze over anymore this year, and subsequently the hunters in Rigolet are going to be cut off from the other side of the bay and not be able to continue to hunt for seals . The season, by the way, opens on Monday morning . I think the minister should have seen to it that the icebreaker should have been in there earlier in the Winter . I think we should do everything possible to see that development opens up in Lake Melville, but not on the backs of the people concerned . 2530

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1154 NM - 1 ORAL QUESTIO NS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hen. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, with each passing day now, with the complete shutdown of our school system, primary to the senior high level, it is becoming more serious, more critical, not only in the educational sense but in the social sense as well, where we have many working parents, particularly single parents, who normally would have had their kids in school, now of course are faced with a different problem. So, Mr.

Speaker, in view of these serious circumstances causing great anxiety, and great concern, and untold misery and hardship among our people, in view of these circumstances,I wonder if the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) can report to the House re the progress of the mediation process now going on between the teachers and the government negotiating team. Can the minister give us any good news, Mr. Speaker, concerning this dispute? MR . SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Education. MS . VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, I am afraid that I cannot give han. members any good news about the dispute or the - - hoped for resolution of the dispute. The events of the past four days have been most disappointing. Government is waiting to hear from the Deputy Minister of Labour CMr. Blanchard), who had been requested some four days ago by both sides in the dispute, by the employee side and the employer side, to meet separately alternately with the two sides to see if in his opinion a common ground exists on which it would be prudent to resume negotiations.

At last report the oeputy Minister had not satisfied himself that common ground did exist and that is all I have to say at the moment. No good news,I regret to say. 2531

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 115 4 NM - 2 MR. LUSH: Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . member for Terra Nova . MR. LUSH: That is indeed disappointing but still the miriister,I th.ink,is probably wLthholding a little bit of information. Can the minister indicate whether the process has broken down completely? She give s the bad news but indicates that st~ll the process is going on , Can the minister indicate whether the process has broken down, whether there is an impasse? She also indicated something along the lines that she did not have much hope. -Can the minister be more forthright and inform hon. members just--what is the status of the mediation process now? 2532

April 19,1983 Tape No. 1155 ah-1 MR. SPEAKER (R ussell ) : The hon. Minister of Education. MS.VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I think I was clear in my first answer. The fact is the Deputy Minister of Labour is now engaged in the task which he assumed at the request of both parties some four days ago. The fact that four days have passed and he still has not reported to government that he is satisfied that grounds exist on which,in his opinion,it would be fruitful to resume negotiations between the two parties I think speaks for itself. MR.LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR.LUSH: So, Mr.

Speaker, I gather from the minister - and I do not want to put words in the minister's mouth,certainly, with this critical situation­ but I gather from the minister that the mediation process has failed, that -it has come to a grinding halt. Can the minister indicate whether that is a fact? MR. SPEAKER: MS.VERGE: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, I cannot indicate that that is a fact because I do not know that to be a fact.

The fact is that it has not yet been a success because the Deputy Minister of Labour has not satisfied himself that the two parties can have a meeting of minds and he has not satisfied himself that there would be any point for the two parties to the dispute to resume negotiations. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR.LUSH: Well, Mr. Speaker, we will come back to that a little later, but I want to move on to another · question. In view of the fact that many people 2533

Apr_il 19 , 1983 Tape No . 1155 ah- 2 MR.LUSH: throughout the Province are questioning the motives of the provincial government whereby on the one hand they set up a tutorial service# a Dial-a-Tutor service,which is classified by many people as a lockout b~eaking measure or a strike breaking measure, whatever we want to call it, and then on the other hand designs a letter minutes after to the NTA asking the NTA to go along with this mo.ratorium that was suggested by the Newfoundland Federation of the PTAs1 or whatever the correct name of that association is;and also requesting that the NTA get back to the negotiating table, get back to bargaining, ~o these two moves certainly seem to be conflicting moves,and in view of the fact that people have questioned the motives of the government in doing this ,o.n the o.ne hand setting up the service to prolong the teacher lockout or to make provision to break the teacher lockout and then inviting the NTA to come back to the bargaining table, been would not the minister have 2534

April 19, 1983 Tape 1156 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: better advised to have not brought up the idea of the Dial-a-Tutor service and gone on with the other suggestion, would that not have been seen as creating more trust and more confidence? Certainly, this other move created a lot of mistrust, Mr. Speaker, at a time when we did not need mistrust, at a time when we needed confidence. So can the minister comment on why these two moves were put together back to back? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Minister of Education. MS VERGE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I-have commented on it before in this hon.

House in Question Period and I will be glad to repeat myself now. Government was receiving many calls from parents who are worried about their children missing school. The calls began the first day of the strike. Parents were expressing serious concern about their older children in the senior high school grades, especially those required to write public examinations. Parents were asking for ways to provide assistance to their children trying to work at home. Parents were asking about the possibility of tutorial services.

Parents were requesting course outlines and any aids that could be provided them and their children by the Department of Education. The strike was a reality. The strike was upon us. It had been initiated by the Newfoundland Teachers'Association and it was incumbent upon the .Department of Education to try to provide whatever small measure of help we could that was feasible for us to do, to reassure parents that we are appreciative of their difficulties and those of 2535

April 19, 1983 Tape 1156 EC - 2 MS VERGE: their children •. As a - _I consequence, I and my officials met, had a jam session and we decided on a course of action which was feasible and which had educational merit. The first and foremost step that has already been taken and implemented is the Dial-a-Tutor service which b~gan yesterday afternoon and which is proving successful, as had been: anticipated and hoped. Now, at the same time as a decision was taken to set up the Dial-a-Tutor service, it was acknowledged that that was at best a stopgap . measure that might in some small way compensate for the lack· of regular classroom instruction by 2536

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1157 MJ -1 MS. L. VERGE: teachers with schools open and doing business as usual. lt is acknowledged that the Dial-a-Tutor service is not going to be of any use to senior high school students who are not trying to help themselves since the initiative has to come from the students working at home. The questions have to come from students who pick up their phones and call into the service using the toll free number.

And, of course, the service cannot handle requests from students in the lowe:~;" grades who in many cases are experiencing equally serious difficulties being deprived of regular classroom instruction. The Dial-a-Tutor $ervice is in no way a replacement for schools and regular instruction by teachers.

In the same way as the service was thought up and implemented on very short notice, as soon as the ultimate solution is realized -that of a lasting settlement and a new collective agreement with schools being reopened and teachers going back to their classrooms and providing all their services and duties as usual -just as quickly as the service was thought up and implemented,the service will be disbanded and dropped, no problem. Now, Mr. ppeaker, there is no inconsistency.

The strike happened, the strike was initiated by the Newfoundland Teachers' ASsocaition, scho.ols were closed, parents were worried 1 students weJ:"e missing the benefit of instruction by the±r regul~r teachers; the Department of Educ~tion did what we could on short notice to provide just a bit of help for senior students who take initiative and are heiping themselves, In the meantime, very quickly, I on behalf of goverrunent suggested to the Newfoundland Teachers' Association that we both take the advice of the Provincial Federation of Parent/Teacher Associations that a moratorium be placed on the strike action,that schools reopen yesterday, Monday,with teachers going back and doing their full jobs and in return getting 2537

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1157 MJ - 2 MS. L. VERGE: their full pay and benefits,and some time be provided for the collective bargaining process to be tried and, of co urse, if after a few days ,the NTA was not satisfied with the results 1 they would reserved unto themselves the strike weapon and could thereupon call out their members once aga in but,while the two parties are trying to come up with a co mpro mise and a new collective agreement , at least the students would not be deprived and,of course, that arrangement is stil l available to us . MR. s. NEARY: · Mr. Speaker, a po int of order. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! on a point of orde .r. MR. NEARY: The hon. the Leader of th .e Opposition Mr. Speake .r, I believe one of the rules · of this hon. House is that answers by ministers have to be as brief as possible. The minister is going on now· just rehashing things that have been said a dozen times over and over again in this House and not answering the question put by my hon. colleague. I believe Your Honour -- --- .. ---- should 2538

April 19, 1983 Tape 1158 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: enforce the rules and if the minister does not obey Your Honour's ruling that she be named and removed from the House. MR. MA RSH ALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : to that point of order. MR. MARSHALL: The ·hon. President of the Council, I doubt whether Your Honour needs to be told by the hon. gentleman that Your Honour should enforce the rules of the House. Your Honour, I am sure,always enforces the rules of the House. Mr. Speaker, the question asked by the hon. gentleman of the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) was to comment on a matter of extreme importance .

She was commenting. If they want specific answers, Mr. Speaker, they should ask specific questions. When the hon. gentlemen ask general, wide ranging questions, repeat themover and over again, and ask for comment, you cannot bl~e the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) if she feels that she has to give the answer that was requested by the hon. gentleman. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order,I would remind hon. members that the basic purpose ofthe Question Period is to ask as many questions to get as many answers as you possibly can.

However,sometimes by the very nature of the question it provokes an unusually long answer. I would ask hon. members on both sides that questions only require brief answers. MR. LUSH: The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, the minister did not convince me that these two moves were not counterproductive, that they were not conflicting and they were not the kind of moves to create trust and confidence in a dispute of this kind. Nevertheless, Mr. Speaker, I want to ask some questions now 2539

_,.!.J. April 19, 1983 Tape 1158 PK - 2 MR. LUSH: about mission Ding-a-Ling and see if the minister can put some meat on the bones ,, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday the minister got briefly into the situation of telling us about the tutor-student telephone ratio. So I wonder if the minister can further comment on that today,the ~utor-student telephone ratio, what numbers we have working there ·at mission Ding-a-Ling. How many tutor ,s are there? And how this compares with the number of senior high school stud ,ents in the Province?

Could she also comment on the qualifications of the· tutors and whether they are certified teachers or if they qualify to be certified teachers? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I think it is very disappointing that the Opposition education critic,who himself is a IJlernber of the teaching pro:jiession,is begruding the high school students of this Province the small measure of help they have gotten over the last twenty-four hours from the ad hoc measures from the special 2540

April 19, 19 83 Tape No. 1159 MS. VERGE: service being provided by the Department of Education to provide tutorial services by telephone. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, that several high school students across our Province, from communities such as L'Anse-au-Loup, St. Anthony, Corner Brook, Port au Basques, Fogo, Burin and Harbour Grace - NM - 1 MR. LUSH: MS. VERGE: The number, the number of tutors. -as well as St.

John's, have called into the Dial-a-Tutor service, have had their questions about their mathematics and science and social studies, English and French answered, have derived some help to compensate in some small way for what they are missing due to the strike. Mr. Speaker, the Da ·ily News this morning styled the service a ringing success, and I regret that the Opposition Education critic (Mr. Lush) is not a large enough person to acknowledge that that service is providing valuable assistance to high school students. The students and their parents certainly appreciate it, Mr.

Speaker, and that is all that is really important. Now, Mr. Speaker, to answer the specific questions posed by the Opposition Education critic, I would remind people that we have in our Province now about 10,000 students in Grade X, or level one of the re-organized high school programme, and about the same number, another 10,000 in Grade XI,or level two. That makes a total of 20,000 students across our Province who are the clientele for which the Dial-a-Tutor service has been designed .

These are the students who are nearing the end of their high school studiescand some of whom, those taking level 3,000 courses, are required to take public examinations this Spring. 2541

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1159 NM- 2 MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, the Depa~tment of Education, with the supervision and management of senior personnel of the department, has employed on a contractual basis some thirty-five qualified teachers to staff the Dial-~-Tutor service. Those people are staffing twenty telephone lines which are located at the former Hillview Lodge in St. John's. Mr.

Speaker, all of the individuals engaged by the Department of Education to staff Dial-a-Tutor have been judged by the Director of Instruction of the Department of Education and other senior-personnel of our department to be eminently qualified teachers. ~1R. LUSH: Are they certified? -- -- . - MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Just a final question. Qualified, Mr.

Speaker, is a judgmental thing, to say that somebody is a qualified teacher, I want. to know whether they are certified teachers_. whether they are certified teachers and what the cost of this service will be to the P.rovince? I realize the minister cannot put a total figure on it because she does not know how long it is going to go on, but can she 2542

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1160 SD -1 MR. LUSH: give us what the cost has been to date,and what the daily cost will be of operating this service to the people of this Province? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure what the beginning of the Opposition Education critic's remarks were meant to convey.

To repeat myself again, the people who have been engaged by the Department of Education on contract to staff--the Dial-a-Tutor service have all applied for those positions, have had their qualifications reviewed and adjudicated by senior officials of my department who are well respected in education in this Province. What is most important, Mr. Speaker, they have been doing a good job. They have been satisfying the _students calling in and parents of those students and we, in the Department of Education, have gotten a lot of positive feedback about the service over the last day. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I regret to have to report to hon. members that for every two students who have called in to Dial-a.-Tutor service1 asked legitimate questions·, gotten answers, derived help and benefit in their efforts to help themselves with their studies, one call has come of a nuisance nature, Some of these calls have gotten referred by the switchboard operator, by the people answering the phones initially, to the subject tutors and distasteful conversations have ensued with the callers asking t~e tutors about their qualifications and then going on to use abusive language1including the term 1scab labour1, But, Mr.

Speaker, despite the attempts at interference with a good,valuable effort that is providing some h.elp to students, students are getting through and are 2543

:.1 April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1160 so - 2 MS. VERGE: deriving benefit and that is what is important. I trust, Mr. Speaker, that it will not be necessary to continue the Dial-a-Tutor Service very long because I and every member of the provincial government earnestly hope that the present labour/management dispute will be resolved as soon as possible,although unfortunately there is no reason to be hopeful at the moment.

There has been no good news over the past four days since the Deputy Minister of Labour has bee~ engaged in his task of meeting in turn with each of the two sides and trying to size up the respective positions and trying to determine for himself whether there is any point £or the two sides to resume negotiations. There has been no breakthrough, . Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker; just for the benefit of the hon. minister, well 1that is what they are1 scab labour, 2544

April 19,1983 Tape No. 1161 ah-1 MR.NEARY: whether the hon. minister cares to acknowledge that term or not. My question is for the Minister of Justice (Mr.Ottenheimer). Rumours and reports are rampant that the government are planning on doing away with the collective bargaining process and bringing in legislation, using their forty­ four majority in this House1to legislate the teachers back to work. Now I personally think that that would be unconstitutional and I do not think it is possible.

But what advice has the Minister of Justice given the Premier and his colleagues on whether or not legislation should be introduced into this House to legislate an end to this dispute? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): MR.OTTENHEIMER: The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. gentleman will realize when I mention it that any advice I were to give· the Premier or colleagues would of course be advice of minister to minister or something in a Cabinet context and would be therefore protected by ' confidentiality and it would obviously be quite improper for me to comment on it.

Let me just make a very brief comment on the hon. gentleman's

preamble whereby he referred to what he considered this government views with respect to collective bargaining. Let me remind all hon. members that it was the Conservative government in 1973 , I recall because I was Minister of Education at the time, which first brought in collective bargaining for teachers in the history of Newfoundland. So our position is quite clear. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 2545

April 19,1983 Tape No. 1161 ah-2 MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in view of what the hon. gentleman says it is terrible to see the way that they are carrying out the collective bargaining process. You know,if we wanted to we could say it was a Liberal administration that gave the NTA the checkoff ~hich made them as .strong as they ~re today. But let us forget that, thatis all in the past. What made the NTA was the checkoff and that was given to the NTA by a Liberal administration. But let me ask the hon. gentleman this. There are two different terms being used to describe this dispute.

The minister keeps saying it is a strike and everybody else in the Province, the NTA and just about everybody else realize, no, it is a lockout. Now the minister, apart from being the Attorney General who gives advice to the Cabinet, is also Minister of Justice (Mr.Ottenheimer) in this Province. Now would the hon. gentleman tell the House if it is in his opinion a strike or a lockout? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Justice. MR.OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I will certainly give .my opinion on it.

In my view,when an organized group cease to provide services,which they have traditionally prov~~ed according to their contract and according to their terms of employment, 2546

April 19, 1983 Tape 1162 EC - 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: in an organized,concerted manner, that is a strike. In my opinion, the present action is a strike - a legal strike, but a strike. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Opposition. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. The han. the Leader of the MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman is aware, of course, that only partial service, supervisory responsibilities and so forth, were the things that were eliminated by the teachers, that they were prepared to go back to school. As a matter of fact, they did turn up for school last Monday only,in some cases,to find that the doors were locked.

Now, these teachers wanted to go back into their classrooms and teach the students. Now, would not the hon. gentleman lean the other way and say that it is more of a lockout than it is a strike? Or is the han. gentleman calling it a strike so that the government can prepare legislation? If they term it as a strike they can prepare legislation to bring into this House, but if it is a lockout then they could not bring legislation into the House to force an end to the dispute. I mean, would it not be more of a lockout than a strike? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, in my view it would be a strike. If the employees' job were merely to instruct, to give instruction in this subject matter and in that subject matter - of course, it is recognized by everybody that a teacher in the regular school system has other duties in addition to instructional duties, supervisory duties, counselling duties, advisory duties, various duties which are an important part of a teacher's function. And the withdrawal of these duties, these 2547

April 19, 1983 Tape 1162 EC - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: obligations of a supervisory, of a counselling, of an advisory, of an extra-curricular nature, all of these are regarded as essential parts of a teacher's job. It is not merely instructional. And for that reason, in my view, it would be a strike. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: If I may be permitted a supplementary. Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the minister could set us straight on a matter growing out of his answer, and that is whether these, let us call them non- teaching duties,to use a term which grows out of his answer, his language, are these required of the teachers by contract or not? Could the minister answer that for us,please? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, I would clarify that they would be non-instructional - that probably would be a better word-and they would include supervisory duties, they would include things which would pertain to pupils' safety as well as extra-curricular and other activities in my view, and I have not made obviously a specific 2548

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1163 MJ - 1 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: study of the contract with that in mind, but in my view those functions are required of teachers as teachers,that they are part of required duties, thoseiunctions,in addition to instruction in the strict sense,are required as well, MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the member for the Stra~t of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the mini~ter's frankness and I appreciate as well it is only reasonable of him to say ·that he has not had a chance to look at this in detail.

I wonder if he would undertake to have a look at it, consulting with his own law officers or with officials of the Education - now the Premier is giving him the answer - with his law officers or with the officials of the Education or other departments as need be. It is obviously a very important point in this present dispute as to whether the duties which the teachers, apparently by agreement among themselves,are not performing whether these are required of them under their contract or not, r appreciate what the minister has to say.

T do not argue with .it 1 but :r do say to him that I am told by people whose opinion I value and would accept in the absense of anything to the contrary that the contract between the teachers on one hand and the school boards on the other does not require them to provide these duties. I am not putting that forward as a fact, I am putting it forward as a piece of information I have been given.What I ask of the minister is whether he would undertake to look into it and perhaps advise the House in a Ministerial Statement or otherwise as he sees fit? MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker.

The hon, the Minister of Justice. Yes, Mr. speaker. I would ce;~;tainly 2549

April 19, 1983 Tape No . 1163 MJ - 2 MR . G . OTTENHEIMER : be glad to do that . Allow me to say as well, and this is somewhat different from what the hon . gentleman has asked with respect to the specific duties required by the contract, out let me say that it is not only my opinion but the opinion of officials in the Department of Justice that the present action constitutes a strike,and it is my under standing that the NTA solicitor has advised the NTA executive that it is in fact a strike . That is my understanding . MR . E. ROBERTS: Mr . Speaker. a final supplementary, if my friends will permit . 25 50

April 19, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Tape No. 116 4 NM - 1 The han. member for the I am not getting into that. I am not the NTA solicitor and I have no idea what advice they may have been given.

Can the minister tell us whether it is his understanding that teachers in this Province are required to perform any duties other than those which are set forth in the contract- ! believe it is between the NTA as the bargaining unit on the one hand and on the other hand the various school boards in the Province - aretheir only duties those which are comprised within the four corners of that contract? Can the minister answer that? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr ·. Speaker, I think the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge} would be better qualified to answer it.

I think it would probably be more appropriate and she is certainly more knowledgeable in the area. MR. ROBERTS : MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: I readdressthe question. The han. Minister of Education. Yes, Mr. Speaker, thank you. I have received legal advice from government s~licitors on the questions raised by the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts).

As I understand it, based on that legal advice the duties of teachers for which they are employed are set out in a number of documents, first and foremost legislation, particularly The Schools Act, and then the constitutions of each of the thirty-five school boards which directly employ teachers, constitutions comprising by-laws which amount to subordinate legislation, and then,third, the collective agreement. All of those documents have to be read and interpreted to give a complete and comprehensive 2551

Apri;t. 19, 1983 Tape No. 116 4 NM - 2 MS. VERGE: definition of all the duties and services required of teachers, arid clearly those duties and services encompass a lot more than classroom instruction, they do encompass supervision and maintenance of discipline in and around the school building when students are not in their classrooms receiving classroom instruction, they do encompass the keeping of records, the evaluation of students, consultation with parents and so on.

And another piece of legislation that is relevant to this discussion is the legislation governing Newfoundland Teachers' Association collective bargaining, that progressive legislation that was put forward in this han. House back in 1973 at the initiative of some of my colleages who were here at the time - MR. ROBERTS: now but carry on. l;«S. VERGE: Conservative Party. MR. ROBERTS : Anyway ,carry on. MS. VERGE: And some who are not there - representing the Progressive You have got to carry the can.

That legislation defines a strike for this particular group of employees and this particular union, and a partial withdrawal of services, or, more accurately,withdrawal of some services which are required 2552

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1165 SD -1 MS. VERGE: as part of the package for which thes.e people are employed 1 does constitute a strike. MR. SPEMER (Russell) : Order, please! Time for Question Period has expired. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEMER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I have an answer to a question, Question 67 on the Order Paper of March-25th, 1983, asked by the Leader of the' Opposition (Mr. Neary}. In the last four years has the Government of Newfoundland been after the federal government to try to get improvement to defense facilities in the Province?

The answer is yes. And we table the relevant pieces of correspondence and outline it in chronological form from 1980 to 1983: June l3.th, 1980; July 14th, 1980; September 30th, 1980; September 4th, 1981; May 12th, 1982; June 18th, 1982; July 22nd, 1982; November 26th, 1982; December 14th, 1982; January 18th, 1983, and;' as well, meetings between ourselves and the federal government to try to get improvement to Search and Rescue and defense facilities. So r table the answer to that question with the relevant documentation. 2553

April 19, 1983 MR. MARSHALL : the Resource Committee. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Committee. Hermitage. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. STEWART: Tape No. 1165 SD - 2 ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion 3, Concurrence Motion, Concurrence Motion, the Resource The han. member for Fortune - Hear, hear. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Resource Committee was appointed to deal with the departments of government that pertain to the resources of our great Province. I would like at this time to thank the members of that Committee who served~ Mr. Beaton Tulk, Vice-Chairman; Mr. Jim Hodder from Port au Port - I might add at this time, Mr.

Speaker, that Mr. Hodder did not attend any meetings of that Committee and Mr. Tulk attended one .- also on that Committee, Mr. Milton Peach from Carbonear; Mr. Glen Tobin, Burin - Placentia West; Mrs. Ida Reid - Twillingate and Mr. John Butt from Conception Bay South. r would also like to thank the members who substituted on these Committees, and the Clerk and her staff for their co-operation. during the deliberations. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, h.ear. 2554

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1166 JV - 1 MR. STEWART: I would like to point out to all members how well the committee system works. Information that would not be brought to light in this House of Assembly definitely comes out in the committee. I say to any hon. memberswho critize same that they have not had an open mind towards the committee system or never attended enough meetings to judge same. Mr. Speaker, one of the most enlightening departments the committee dealt with was the Department of Development and it was very sad,indeed, that no han. membe~from the Opposition attended. MR . S IMl-1S : Not one? MR.

STEWART: Not one? The Resource committee was the only committee sitting on that day. The members opposite knew, before the Easter break, about the meeting with Development scheduled for April 18th. I think, Mr. Speaker, if the Oppositionwere truly interested in this Province they would have ·sent at least one member to the meetings. I might also add,Mr. _Speaker, going back over the records,that last year when the Department of Development sat not one member from the Opposition attended • . 1m '. SIMHS: That is two years in a row. MR. STEWART: That is right, .,_t·wo years in a row.

And just to follow alo11g o_n a point _the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary)brought up yesterday, I would like to point out to the Leader of the Oppo .sition that I know of at least three members from the Government side who left theirane towns at 4:00 o'clock in the morning to be here for their commitment on Monday. And again, I would say to the Leader of the Opposition that I was not 2555

April 19, 1983 Tape No . .1166 JV - 2 MR. STEWART: contacted to postpone the meeting with Development. But anyway, l~. Speaker,to get into the departments that come under the Resource Committee the first d~partment dealt with in committee was the Department of Forest Resources and Lands. This Department is vested with the responsibility for the management and development of our forests and Crown land resources for the continuing economic and social well being of this Province.

This Department can be broken down into two main categories: forest resource management 1 which is concerrted with proper management, utilization and protection of the forest resource,and provincial land management,which administers and controls the mapping, surveying, allocation and registration of all Crown lands in the Province. The object of the forest sector is to sustain an adequate timber supply through the use of good management techniques and the protection of the . forest from insects and fires. It also provides, . Mr.

Speaker, for the regulation, management and utilization of both Crown and company held forest lands in the Province. It was brought out in Committee, 2556

April 19, 1983 Tape 1167 PK- 1 MR. STEWART~ Mr . Speaker, that $8 million will be spent this year again on silviculture. We have seen an increase from 200,000 seedlings planted in 1979,to over 5 million in 1982. $5.4 million will be spent this year on forest resource roads; $1.8 million again will be spent on budworm spraying ,to be shared two-thirds by the company and one-third by the Government of Newfoundland. Two hundred thousand cords of woodareestimated to be cut for firewood this year,in the Province. Mr.

Speaker, I could go on and on about the positive happenings within this department, but I also need to speak briefly on the four other departments in the resource sector. The Department of Rural,Agricultural and Northern Development, with estimates totalling over $13, 800,000 1 this department is responsible for the reservation and development of the rural way of life in this Province. The Rural Development branch provides a specialized progr~~e of support to rural communities on social and economic development. The minister pointed out theEe are over fifty Development Associations serving rural Newfoundland.

The financial support of Development Associations' incentives to small rural businesses 1 help merely to maintain our rural way of life. The agricultural branch delivers effective integrated programmes to stimulate development of the agricultural resource and provides opportunities for improvement and expansion to that industry. Mr . Speaker, this department does not do the farming or produce the food ,rather the department offers programmes to assist the farmers to produce a marketfor agricultural £ood productstherebyproviding an essential service to our society and hopefully, Mr.

Speaker, in so doing our farmers can be rewarded with a reasonable standard of living for themselves and their families. 2557

April 19, 1983 Tape 1167 PK - 2 MR . STE{-lART: The final division of this department, Mr. Speaker, is Northern Development. It consists of the Northern Development Branch located for the most

part in the Happy Valley/Goose Bay area and scattered along the Northern communities , from Rigolet to Nain. It is responsible for programmes of assistanceand services to the communities in Labrador and it is comprised of two di visions ,both operations and development. TheOperations Branch is res ponsibl e for the operation of retail stores and warehousing in costal communities North of Goose Bay and is also responsible for aid to students from these communities who wish to attend high school, trade school or university. The Devel~pment Branch is composed of the follo win g sectors, regional development 2558

April 19,1983 Tape No. 1168 ah-1 MR.STEWART: business development, agricultural development and native people's programmes and research. It is also, I might add, Mr. Speaker, the liason with government air services for the co-ordinating and dispatching of all government flight operations in the Goose Bay area. Mr. Speaker, the Department of Fisheries, with a budget this year of over $14 million,is responsible for the management of the provincial interests in all the fishing resources. I would like to congratulate the Leader of the Opposition who atte~ded the hearings on the fishery.

Although he did not quite understand how the committee system worked I am sure he obtained some very worthwhile information. And at this time, Mr.Speaker, I would like to thank the ~inister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) for his patience with the Leader of the Opposition during these deliberations. Most of the time allotted for fisheries, I think, Mr. Speaker, dealt with the restructuring of the fishing industry, the serious problems now being faced by the industry and the need for ~ fundamental recapitalization of the major companies.

The fishery,which is the backbone and lifeblood of our Province,plays a very i~portant role in the Newfoundland society and is deeply rooted in the lifestyle and settlement patterns of our people. Mr. Speaker, I cannot understand why the Opposition,therefore,is willing to accept,because Ottawa says so,the closure of deep-sea plants along the South coast of this Province,which would eventually see communities die.

The minister outlined for the Committe once again how the Newfoundland government takes the position that all stocks of fish in its adjacent waters must be made available to the Newfoundland fleet until existing plants are fully utilized. The government believes that Newfoundland 2559

April 19,1983 Tape No. 1168 ah-2 MR. STEWART: pos ses ses certain historic and traditional rights to the stocks and that allocation of increased landings to Ne\.,foundland plants will eliminate the need to closedesignated plants which have historically provided the principal livelihood of the single-industry communities in which they are located .

The presentation by the Government of Ne\vfoundland and Labrador to the federal cabinet committee on fisheries restructuring was talked about in great detail in Committee and I would encourage all hon . m~nbers,if they have not read this proposal,to obtain one and read it. The Minister of Fisheries {Mr . Morgan) also informed the Committee that the federal government was planning to introduce a user/ pay system to fishermen who were us~ng the Small Crafts Harbour facilities . Can you imagine a fishermen bein g charged $1.00 a foot for his boat being tied up to a government owned wharf? 2560

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1169 MJ - 1 MR. D. STEWART: If this system is introduced,we could see a fisherman with a thirty-five foot longliner paying up to $1,050 per month wharfage. MR. DOYLE: You mean per season? MR. STEWART: MR. SIMMS: foot? MR. STEWART: MR. STAGG: MR. STE1iJART: No, per month. A dollar a month per A dollar a day per foot. Who is doing this? The federal government. MR. STAGG: I thought it was only the provincial government which did things like that. MR. STEWART: No, no. This is the fed~ral government again. MR. NEARY: MR. STEWART: longliner. MR. NEARY: MR. STEWART: $1,000 a month. MR.

NEARY: What size boat? I just based it on a thirty foot Oh, I see. And it could cost that fisherman That fact is just as wrong as all the other things you have said. MR. STEWART: Anyway, this kind of thinking, I think, Mr. Speaker, is totally outrageous, especially considering the poor economic times we are presently experiencing in the fishing industry. The minister also informed the committee about the management changes within the Loan Board and that it was now possible for fishermen to purchase boat equipment through the Loan Board outside this Province.

Marketing trips to the United States and Europe have shown the potential for expanding and new markets,particularly for fresh fish, in the Western United States. The department also continued its programme 2561

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1169 MJ - 2 MR. D. STEWART: this year to enhance and develop the inshore fishery , and continued with efforts to ~mprove the harvesting sector through various projects. Mr. Speaker, the Department of Mines and Energy,with a budget of over $50 million,was dealt with in great detail. Two ministers appeared before that committee, the Minister responsbile for Mines and Energy Conservation, Mr. Dawe, and the Minister responsible - and I would like for the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) to get it straight - for Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and the Petroleum Directorate, Mr.

Marshall, The Department of Mines and Energy is responsible for the management of the province's mineral and energy resource in a manner that will ensure optimum benefits for the people of this Province. The minister pointed out that we are continuing to see a keen interest in claim staking in the Province and that claim stakinghas been increasing since 1978.

The department does anything that is necessary to try to stimulate the development of the mining industry in this Province,and to assist existing industries,and to control and manage our mineral resources and ensure that we are,of course,getting maximum benefit from the development of them. The department is also responsible for a whole range of activities other than those,of course,covered by Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. The department is into energy conservation, research, 2562

April 19, 1983 Tape 1170 EC - 1 MR. STEWART: renewable energy, demonstration projects such as peat moss, sawdust and wood chip operations. Mr. Marshall, Mr, Speaker, dealt with Newfoundland Hydro under which electrical energy comes, and also with the Petroleum Directorate. The minister pointed out the government was involved in renegotiating contracts with ERCO and the paper companies which will see a savings of over $265 million over the life of these contracts. MR. WARREN: This is your contribution to the debate, is it? MR.

STEWART: The Petroleum Directorate is engaged in assessment of hydrocarbon resources and monitoring of related activities. And I would poipt out to the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren), if I had to get up and make no more sense than the hon. member, I probably would not get up as much. MR. WARREN: You are not making very much now, I will tell you that. MR. STEWART: Social research is also undertaken to determine the impact of the oil and gas industry on the Province's social system. MR. NEARY: Do what you are told now, do what you are told. MR. STEWART: The Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) also attended these hearings and I apologize that I had not mentioned it earlier. I think he made two appearances and spent most of his time citicizing the court ruling against the Province,instead of extracting infor- mation from the minister. Mr. Speaker, the final department dealt with under the Resource Committee was the Department of Development with a budget of over $26 million. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 2563

April 19 , 1983 Tape 1170 EC - 2 MR . STEWART : It has the respon sibility for identifying business opportunities in the Province relat ing to resource, trade and tourism development . The minister talked about and gave information on the three sectors of that department : development, tourism and housing . Information was given, by the \vay , on the aluminum reduction plant, and if the member for Bellevue (Mr . Callan) had attended, being the Opposition critic on this department, he would have been pleased, I am sure , with the minister 's address to that question.

And, I might add , due to th .e fact · that the Opposition critic wa s not there , that question was asked of the minister by the member for Fortune - Hermitage (}tr . Stewart) . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! MR . WARREN: So it is not going to be in Fortune Bay , is it ? 2564

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1171 NM - 1 MR. STEWART: I do not think so. It was also very interesting to note, Mr. Speaker, that due to the400th anniversary celebrations planned for this year, the Department of Tourism has received over 11,000 enquiries, compared to 4,000 last year1to date. Tourism, Mr. Speaker, is a $230 million industry, and,I might add,with $49 million plus in tax revenue. Marine '82 was addressed and also information was given on Marine '83. Mr.

Scpeaker, I could, I guess, take the full time in deoate that has been allotted,to fully deal with all departments, getting into all the information that was extracted from the ministers r however, I am sure th.e Opposition would like to enter into this debate. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. NEARY: H:ear, hear~ The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, some members are destined to become politicians, are destined to become members of legislatures, Mr.

Speaker, but the hon. gentleman who just read out1did what he was told, is not one of those people who is destined to become a member of a legislature. The hon. member fluked his way in. He is an accident. There are a number of accidents in this House, Mr. Speaker, and the hon. gentleman is one of the accidents. 2565

April 19, 1983 Tape No . 1171 NM - 2 MR . NEARY: No\v let me put the hon . gentleman's mind at rest a:; far the herthage fees are concerned. The administration in Corner Brook announced that they will be postported until April 1, 1984. And indeed, Mr. Speaker, they do not apply to vessels thirty feet q.nd over. UI1der the programme ves ·sels in all classes,forty-five feet and over,would be charged a fee for using - Big deal, you are not trying to MR . TOBIN: take credit for that, are you? MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman is only out in his calculations by fifteen feet. Forty-five feet and over, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr.

Speaker, remember that that han. gentleman just expressed grave concern MR. TOBIN: Just semantics. MR. NEARY: oh, just semantics now. I see. It does not include small boats. The han. ~entleman, Whei1 he spoke, left the impression that the user/pay fee was going to apply to all small craft in the Province ·when ·in actual fact it only applies, and wilJ, only apply, to the Southwest corner,where you have vessels forty-five feet and over 256 "6

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1172 SD - 1 MR. NEAR~: using Small Craft Harbours facilities. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us see how concerned that hon. gentleman is about something else that is the responsibility o= this administration . He is so concerned that the fishermen are struggling, that they cannot make ends meet, that they cannot cope with the high cost of gear and supplies and services and repairs, the hon. gentleman just expressed grave concern about that, I did not hear the hon. gentleman get up and condemn and criticize this item that comes under provincial jurisdiction. Now, what is it?

Marine service centres, Mr. Speaker, marine service centres, not a federal matter although the federal government paid 90 per cent of the cost of building them. They are operated by the provincial government. They are under provincial jurisdiction. Now, what is happening regarding marine service centres in this current fiscal year, Mr. Speaker? If I can get the hon. gentleman's attention there, the hon. gentleman who is very concerned about the fishermen and the costs of operations. Just listen to this, Mr. Speaker. Now, here is the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) who went down to his committee, and his big announcement at the committee meeting was the user/pay fee which is now gone by the board, but he made no mention of this. MR. TOBIN: But, what is it? MR. NEARY: He sat on this, he covered it up and concealed it from the committee. What is it? rt says 'Fees charged by the Department of Fisheries for certain services provided at the marine service centres around the Province will be increased by approximately 25 per cent •:, a whopping 25 per cent. Now what does the hen. gentleman have to say about that? MR. WARREN: He did not know that. 2567

April 19, 1983 MR. NEARY: MR. WARREN: Morgan) did not know either. MR. NEARY: did not know. MR. STEWART: Tape No. 1172 SD - 2 He did not know that. I see. The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. The Minister of Fisheries The member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary should have asked questions and extracted that information from the minister. MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, that is an outrage, 25 per cent added to certain repairs done on these longliners - MR. WARREN: And small boats. MR. NEARY: - and small boats, it does not make any difference the size.

If they go ln the marine service centre operated by the provincial governrnept, the fee is going to be increased by 25 per. cent. That is scandalous, outrageous. The ~dministration should be ashamed of themselves. How dare they criticize and point their finger at somebody else for putting on a small fee when they, themselves, are the biggest culprits of all when it comes to increasing fees for fishermen in this Province? - inshore fishermen. It is outrageous, Mr. Speaker. And now I would like to hear the hon. gentleman get up and criticize and condemn the administration that he idolizes.

Do you know, the funny part about 2568

April 19, 1983 Tape 1173 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: members there opposite, Mr. Speaker? They will betray their own districts and their own constituents, they would betray their own mother just to please the Premier, to go along with the Premier. And that is what they are doing. MR. TOBIN: That was -back in Joey's day. MR. NEARY: That is what they are doing, Mr. Speaker, they are letting down their districts and letting down their constituents badly because they want to please the Premier. And we see as the classic example of that the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge). MR.

STEWART: Education does not come under the Resource Committee. MR. NEli.RY : No, it does not. But I just mention that in passing. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to spend the next few minutes talking about the fishery and restructuring. Mr. Speaker, the first point I want to make on restructuring is that over two weeks ago the provincial governrnentsinAtlantic Canada were invited to appoint a negotiator to sit down and negotiate with Mr. Kirby the restructuring of the deep·-sea fishery in Atlantic canada.

Up to this very day, up to the time I am speaking in this House, now, no negotiator has been appointed by the provincial government in this Province. Now.Mr. Kirby,as hon. members know 1 has been authorized to go out and negotiate the restructuring. MR. WARREN: The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) was up in Ottawa last week. MR. NEARY: And the Minister of Fisheries when he went to the Committee the other day, he was very vague and he did not seem to have a handle on what was going on, he did not seem to be very knowledgeable in the restructuring process. I questioned him at some length on it. I think he 2569

April 19, 1983 Tape 1173 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: was embarrassed. Two weeks had gone by and this government had not appointed a negotiator. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. :!.organ) went off to Ottawa over the weekend and he returned to the Province today, he came in on the flight today, from Ottawa •. Now, you would have thought,instead of the government, t~e administration trying to dream up ways and means to make ministerial statements to try to boost the morale of the members on the opposite side, you would have thought what they would have done, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries would have come from Ottawa- he arrived today around one-thirty or two o'clock -came into this House and made a Ministerial Statement on what had transpired in Ottawa. MR. TOBIN: He is busy right now telling others. MR. NEARY: No, I tell you what he is busy at right now, he is busy now plotting and scheming and planning how he is going to get his little darts in. MR. TOBIN: right now. I would say he is on. the telephone 2570

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1174 JV - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker,! have a suspicion that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) is going along with a plot, with a plan to concur with what the ad hoc committee of the Federal Cabinet have agreed on. I believe the minister's strategy, when it becomes known, will be to attack Mr. Kirby. He will not attack Mr. De Bane. He tells us in this House that they are cheek to cheek and jowl to jowl, so his strategy will be attack Mr. Kirby on restructuring. Now,Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries has been sitting on information concerning restructuring for the past several days.

I would not be surprised but for the last couple of weeks.

Let me ~ay, before I deal with the minister covering up and sitting on information, that our position on this side of the House is the same as it always has been, that we go along with the ~eople's Conference, that we voted for the resolution, we go along with the People's conference on the adoption of an amended Option Three.But the Premier did not go along with that, t'he Premier brought in his own plan, brought in his own plan to try to belittle and weaken the ~eople's eonference and more or less sent the message to Ottawa . 'ignore the :;»eople' s conference and take our plan',­ which involves j urisdi,ctional disputes, constitutional matters that will take years and years to unravel.

And, so Mr. Speaker, the Premier only gave the ~eople's Conference resolution, qualified support. We gave it unqualified support and we still stand by that position. Now we are told that the Minister of Fisheries in this r - ·-- • - Province has had information in his possession for some time past indicating that the Option that has been adopted in Ottawa is an amended version of Option One. 2571

J April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1174 JV - 1 MR . NEARY: He has not told the member for Burin -Placentia West (Mr . Tobin) that yet,and if he has the member for Burin -Placentia West should be down telling his constituents . The Minister 'of Fisheries (Mr . Morgan) in this Province /toda y in this Bouse and for several days past, - . has be en sitting on information,Mr. Speaker ,and what is that information? That information is that the minister knows that Option One,amended ,is the one that has been adopted. And what is Op~ion One? Optio n One is the merger of National Sea and Nickerson's .

National and Nickerson's would make up one corporate entit~And that is the one we were fighting against on this side of the House, Mr . Speaker, that is the one the people's Conference did not want . An amended version of Option One would make a corporate entity of Nickerson 's and National Sea ,and maybe bits and pieces and parts of Nickerson's would go into the Newfoundland company whi ch would be made up of Fishery Products , the Lake Group of Companies and John Penny & Sons. 2572

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 11 75 MJ - 1 rilR. S. NEARY: So what you would have is a strong Nova Scotia company and a weak Newfoundland company, I1r. Speaker, ;qe can thank the Premier of this Province for allowing the lobbyists who fought for Option One to ~vin. It was the Premier of this Province who gave Mr. MacEacnen and his colleagues the armnmition that they needed to push Option One and ~11in the day. By the 'Premier of this Province not going along with the Peoples' Conference,not getting solidly behind the ~esolution, not getting solidly behind Mr.

De Bane and the members of the ad hoc federal Cabinet Committee who wanted Option Three amended, by not going along with that 1 by putting down his own proposal at the last minute, muddying up the water, I am afraid, Mr. Speaker, that the battle has been lost. Newfoundland has no negotiator yet, Option One willbe put in place, Mr. Kirby has been given instructions as far as I can learn,reading between the lines, to proceed with negotiations on an amended version of Option One.

Let me repeat what Option One is: National Sea, Nickersons one corporate entity; Fishery Products, The Lake Group of Companies and John Penney and Sons another corporate entity, with the Newfoundland company getting the scallops and getting bits and pieces of Nickersons,and maybe access to some ports in Nova Scotia to try and soften the blow, Now, Mr. Speaker, that will be announced,! presume,by the minister.

If he responds to me in this debate, he will have to admit that he has this information, he has been sitting on it, He told me down at the Committee he had no intention of making the information public,he was going to keep it secret,that Mr. Kirby should make it public. Mr. Speaker, that is not fair to the people who live in communities where fish plants are closed down. Option Three '17as the one that we wanted on this side, the People's Conference wanted Option Three 2573

April 19, 1983 Tape No . 1175 !'!J .. 2 MR . S. NEARY: am.ended, get these fish plant~ open~d immediately . Now, we are t ·old that the negotiations, even on the merger,let alone reopening the plants,on th.e me~ger will take place sometime between now· and the e11d of June. Mr. Speaker, that is terrible! What about the people who reside in these communties where plants are closed? What will the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin} say to his constituents if the hon . gentleman has been give n - MR .• G. TOBIN: I have a mind to get up next and tell :the truth to this House.

I am going to tell truth in th±s House ., MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker I is the non . gentleman arguing that that is not the truth that I just laid out tne.t:e? MR . TOBIN: the truth . I \'Till not muddy the iss u·e, I ,,:1.11 tell 2574

April 19, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (A ylward) : elapsed. MR. TOBIN: MR. SPEAKER: Burin - Placentia West. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. TOBIN: Tape 1176 EC - l Order, please! The han. member's time has !J'..r. Speaker. The han. the member for Hear, hear! Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I feel that I should enter into this debate to set the record straight. Never before have I sat in any forum or any place and listened to such tripe, such untruths, such statements corning from anyone in as res~onsible a position as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary).

The Leader of the Opposition knows full well that the Premier of this Province endorsed - the people of Newfoundland know, the people who were in the Cabinet room realize it - that the Premier of this Province endorsed the resolution that went from ·the People's Conference. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, if my memory serves me correctly, when that resolution at the People's Conference was introduced by Mr. Cashin - and Mr. Simmons and Mr.

Morgan were there - he was the first man to - no problems, no backdoors, nothing to hide behind, certainly not hiding from the truth, certainly not hiding behind the issue - come out foursquare in support of the resolution. Not only that, Mr . Speaker, he made a commitment to the people there, 'Yes, the Premier will meet with you, and he will meet with you in the Cabinet room.' So what is the problem? Why would the Leader of the Opposition get up in this 2575

April 19,1983 Tape 1176 EC - 2 MR. TOBIN: House today and say that the Premier of this Province did not support the resolution? Why would the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) say that? Mr. Speaker, I would suggest the reason the Leader of the Opposition is saying that is because he is trying to cover up for the despicable manner in which the fisheries in this Province has been treated by his friends in Ottawa. And if I were in the place of the Leader of the Opposition, I would stand up, Mr. Speaker, and support Newfoundland and Newfoundlanders. We have seen for too long, Mr.

Speaker, the fickle five in Ottawa who could control this Province, who could control our resources in the federal government if they had the courage to do it. N~, Mr. Speaker, they will not do it. Why? Because they have the dependence of this great Grade A team down here. Now, Mr. Speaker, the people of Burin know full well where this government stands. The people of Burin know full well that the Premier of this Province was the first man to give the federal government something to study that would reopen the plants. It was n~t the Opposition, Mr.

Speaker, it was the Government of Newfoundland, led by the Premier, that laid a document on this table that supported the opening of the fish plants. Why will not the Opposition stand in this House and say that they support the document that wants the fish plants open in this Province, the document that was presented by the people's government ~n this ~rov~nce? No, Mr. Speaker, the Lea,der of the Opposition will not do that. We know what the Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues will do. 2576

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1177 NM - 1 MR. TOBIN: They will desert the people when they need help. Now, Mr. Speaker, Option One is on the table, God help Newfoundland. God help Newfoundland and Newfoundlanders, God he~p the fishing industry in this Province if Option One is accepted by the federal government. This government is not in favour ofOption One, this government is not in favour of any option that will not open the fish plants in this Province, unlike the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) who stood in this House a few days ago, as well,Mr.

Speaker, at the Resource Policy Committee the other day, as did his colleague for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Robertsl, saying that economics would dictate the closure of the Burin Fish Plant, - there are probably other reasons why it should oe open, but economics would dictate that. Viell, Mr. Speaker, I can assure the Leader of the Opposition and his colleagues that that was not taken lightly by the people in Burin. And the Leader of the Opposition cannot deny it was said, Mr. Speaker. The Leader of the Opposit~on cannot deny it was said. It was said and I got it. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I can further state as a matter of information to this House that-he is wondering why the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) in this Province has not responded to a Telex sent from the People's Conference. Well ,th.e People's Conference sent a Telex which the Minister of Fisheries was party to. Just imagine, you send a Telex to someone and then you respond to it yourself. You send a Telex to someone and you respond to it yourself. That is something, Mr. Speaker, like the Leader of the Opposition 2577

April 19_, 1983 Tape No. 1177 NM- 2 MR. TOBIN: would do, but it is not something that this government would do. The person who should respond to that Telex, Mr. Speaker, is Mr. Johnston, who the Telex was sent to by the People's Conference. Where is it? Where is the answer? Where is the response to the Fishermen's Union, to the joint town and community councils, to the Government of Newfoundland who were party to the Telex? tihere is the answer from the federal elected representatives? I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, the answers are where they have been for some time.

Now, I want to say that when I go~back to my district,~lhere my friend fr~ Fortune­ Hermitage (P~. Stewart), as well as my colleague from Grand Bank (Mr. Matthews) , and my colleague from Burgee- Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Andrews), when we go back to our districts, Mr. Speaker, we can not only state where we stand, but we can state where the government that we support stand. They want to see all the fish plants in this Province re-opened. But, Mr.

Speaker, .the federal MP who represents the South Coast, he can only go and hit the airwaves, try to cloud the issue, saying that, "I support all the plants Being open." Why does he not tell the people ~he represents where his federal governrne~t stand, where they stand. Do they want the plants open or do they not? Tell the people, Mr. speaker. We know where the provincial government stands, foursquare: All the plants in this Province must be open, and not only that, Mr. Speaker, not only that, plants such as Burin must be upgraded. That is where we stand.

And our commitment to the fisheries is no secret to anyone, the deep-sea section, something like $61 million, Mr. Speaker. We do not get any great funds for such things as the Mirabel Airport in 2578

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1177 NM- 3 MR . TOBIN : Quebec where the federal government sa\-1 fit to put in $700 million, and 0:rce Petroleum was bailed out, Mr. Speaker, to the tune of about $1 billion, t~tiri.le they are himming and hamming over trying to save the East Coast fisheries when it~ a few pennies . 2579

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1178 SD - 1 MR. TOBIN: Now, Mr. Speaker, I would hope in this Concurrence Debate that the Opposition will get involved in the debate. I fully realize as a member of the Resource Committee, as has my friend, the Chairman of the Committee .-a good Chairman by the way­ that the Opposition has not played its role in discussing the Resource departments. Yesterday it was absolutely shameful, disgusting, Mr. Speaker. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) cam~ to the meeting the night the Estimates of the Minister responsible for the Petroleum Directorate (Mr.

Marshall) were on and suggested that government members should not be permitted to ask questions. Well, Mr. Speaker, let me sa~ here and now that it would indeed a sad day in this Province if Estimates such as thiswereprevented from going through without any questions being asked of the minister. And if we were to adopt the philosophy, if this Party has to adopt the philosophy of the Liberal Party, yesterday, Mr. Speaker, the Department of Development would have gone through this House with not one question asked. Millions and millions of dollars would have been spent without a question being asked. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if that is what the Leader of the Opposition wants, I can assure you that that is not what this government want, or that is not what anyone on this side of the House wants, we want the _ ~ssu~s debated, we want to ask questions of ministers. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, in discussing the Department of Development yesterday we found out that finally the Marystown Shipyard has shown a profit. Mr. Speaker, there are.a number of reasons for that, not the least of wqich is the very capable and very competentwork force and management 2580

Ap ril 19 , 1983 Tape No. 117 8 MR . TOB IN : that are at the Marystown Shipyard. The other reason, Mr. Speaker, is because of this government 1 s belief, this government 1 s confid ·ence in the Marystown Shipyard,when they permitted the Board of Directors fr 'om the Marystown Shipyard to go ahead and build supply vessels on speculation. SD - 2 That is one of the reasons, Mr.

Speaker, why the shipyard was such a success,because of the confidence that this governme~t has in the Marystown Shipyard. ~nd I believe that I can speak on behalf of the people of my district when I say how grateful we are to the provincial government for giving us that opportunity, for giving us the opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to build supply boats, J:o show the rest of the world - by the way, the Marystown Shipyard work force is recognized internationally, recognized world-wide for great workmanship. That is one of the reasons this recognition has come, Mr . speaker, because of the M~nister of Development CMr.

Windsor) and because of this government. 2581

April 19, 1983 Tape 1179 PK - ·1 MR. TOBIN; I would further like to say that the people of Marystown were absolutely discouraged, disgusted by the actions of the Liberal Party - MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! MR. TOBIN: - whe.'1 they stood over there and supported - MR. SPEAKER: elapsed. MR. TOBIN: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The hon. member's time has I will get back to it, Mr. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. It is no harm to say that a little knowledge is dangerous, Mr. Speaker.

You know, it is a funny thing about the gentlemen there opposite, when it comes to a Liberal project that is struggling or not doing so well they condemn it, they criticize Liberal projects for failing. But here is a Liberal ~reject in Marystown, built by a Liberal government - MR. TOBIN: That was the Diefenbaker government , tell the truth. MR. NEARY: No, built by the Provincial Liberal Government, Mr. Speaker. And if the hon. gentleman did not have anything to talk about ir. this world, he had to get up today and talk about that great Liberal project down in Marystown.

Now tomorrow we will hear the President of the Council (.Mr. Marshall) condemning some other Liberal project. MR. TOBIN: Who built the wharves? MR. NEARY: ~ou know, Mr. Speaker, I did not interrupt the hon. gentleman when he was speaking. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: It was like music to my ears to hear praise for a great Liberal concept~ a great Liberal 2582

April 19, 1983 Tape 1179 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: project,the shipyard in Marystown. They would have had nothing. They would not be able to renegotia~e wi~h ERCO, they would not be able to talk about water reversion rights, they would not be able to talk about building ships, they would not be able to talk about anything but for the Liberal Government. MR. TOBIN: That is right. Ne would never have to take it back if you had not given it awa y. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to debate that matter , but I am proud of it.

I am prouder of that shipyard than the hon. gentleman will ever be, because I happened to be a member of the administration that took the decision. But, Mr. Speaker, I want to come back to the restructuring of the fishery again . The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) should be in his place. When that member for Burin (Mr. Tobin) just spoke 1 I do not know if he spoke out of ignorance . In his simplicity he did not know that the Provincial Minister of Fisheries has all the information in connection with restructuring and it is being withheld from this House and being withheld from the people of this Province.

The matter of restructuring should be a matter of public debate. Everybody knows that. And what the member for Burin-Placentia West should do is go out and throttle the Minister of Fisheries and say, Look,you have information about restructuring and I want to know about it, I want to re~ort back to my constituents tonight. I want to get on the phone, I want to call my buddy, my buddy tl ~e Chairman of the Concerned Citizens Committee, and I want to tell him what is happening regarding restructuring. So let me run through it again in case the hon. gentleman did not understand what it was I was saying, Mr. Speaker.

What I am 2583

April 19,1983 Tape No. 1180 ah-1 MR.NEARY: saying is that the provincial Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) knows that Option One, amended, is the Option that is being adopted by the ad hoc federal committee in Ottawa. He knows that. He has known it for some considerable time. He has reported that to the Premier. They are sitting on it. They are covering it up. They will not tell the people. They will not tell this House. These matters should be matter for public debate. We on this side of the House stand 100 per cent behind the People's Conference. Now,what happened when the Premier said he went along with it?

Well,a delegation came over from the People's Conference, went into the Cabinet room to ask the Premier to give his unqualified support to their resolution. Now what did he say? He said, 'Yes, I give you my unqualified support,but here is our proposal for restructuring the fishery.' MR.TOBIN: the kind. · He never said anything of MR.NEARY: He certainly did. MR.TOBIN: He certainly did not. ~4R. ANDREWS : Were you there? MR.NEARY: No, but I talked to people who were there. Now,when that presentation was made to Ottawa the message that was conveyed to Ottawa was ,'Look, ignore the People's Conference.

Here is what the provincial government wants.' And the items in the provincial proposal would take years and years to unravel and straighten out, the legal wrangle. For instance 1 separating the harvesting from the processing sector, that would take some considerable time. That is not what 'the People's Conference asked for, they asked to have that studied somewhere down the road. Butthe Premier said, 'No, we want 2584

April 19,1983 Tape No. 1180 ah-2 MR.NEARY: that now.' And nationalization of the trawler fleet, Mr. Speaker, is something that has to be given very careful consideration. It can only be done over a period of years, over a period of time. And harvesting. There were jurisdictional problems in that proposal. It raised some very significant constitutional matters . So , Mr. Speaker, it was assumed up in Ottawa that the provincial government was putting in their own proposal at the last minute and it weakened the People's Conference. And not only that, Mr.

Speaker, it weakened the position of the ministers who favoured an amended version of Option Three, Option Three being the merger of Nickersons with Fishery Products and the Lake group of companies. Now that is gone by the board so we hear, so we understand and the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) refuses to talk about it. He is a part of it. He is part and parcel of it and he refuses to talk about it. We are still with the People's Conference.Where does the provincial government stand now at the present time? MR. STEWART: MR. NEARY: has changed. HR. STEWART: MR. NEARY: We have not changed.

The Minister of Fisheries No. Well1the Minister of Fisheries 2585

;.. April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1181 MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: has this information that Option - MR. G. WARREN: He will want to come in and make a Ministerial Statement about it, MR. NEARY: Well, he can come in tomorrow and make a Ministerial Statement but I can tell him now what he is involved in.

He is involved in a discussion on an amended version of OptionOne, National Sea and Nickersons one corporate entity, Fishery Products, The Lake Group of Companies and John Penney and Sons another corporate entity, witr• some of Nicker$ons going to the Newfoundland company , and to give th _e Newfoundland company an intraprovincial base, they would have access to some ports in Nova Scotia. Now, that is what we are faced with, Mr. Speaker, and to say otherwi$e would be deceitful on the part of any spokesmen in the administration. They are being deceitful, Mr. Speaker.

And then it is going to take several months to negotiate the merger let alone the reopening of the plants. There 'is no provision for the reopening of the plants that I can see. What about the request from Hr. Johnston of · this government that they indicate whether or not they were prepared to put some money to reopen plants that were considered to be uneconomical? What about that question? Did anybody on the government side address themselves to that question yet? No, they did not, Mr, Johnston is still waiting for the answer. ~though the Premier of this Province gave Mr.

Johnston thirty days to reply, the Premier of this Province has not replied to Mr. Johnston yet on that que$tion, And what about the negotiator? Will the provincia .! government ignore and boycott Kirby and neg?tiations to restructure,or will they appoint an negotiator? These are the questions that have to be answered and I am not going to w-aste my time going after rabbit's tracks, Mr. Speaker, while I am aiming for elephants. Where is the Minister of Fisheries he is not in 25B6

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1181 MJ -2 MR. S. NEARY: here today 'debating this matter·? He has the information and he will not even tell his colleagues, the members, the members \.,ho repres·ent these districts where plants are closed. The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan}, he does not even trust his own members to tell th,em ·what is going. on. Mr. Speaker, I am against an amended version o·f Option One,I am for the Peoples' Conference. Now. let the administration tell the House and tell the people of this Province what they stand for. But, Mr. Speaker, it may be too late for the Premier now, b'ecause when Mr.

De Bane needed his backing, needed his wholehearted support he did not get it, h:e got a watered-do1.,n version of his support, he got qualified support frOm the Premier. Muddie.d up the water at the last minute,rushed in with a proposal,because they had been dere~ict in their duties and in their responsibilitv and now I am afraid, the people 1.zho advocated 2587

April 19, 1983 Tape 1182 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Option One right from the beginning have won the battle. I do not know if they have won the war but they have certainly won the battle. I am terribly concerned ~bout that and I am awfully concerned about the way that this administration covers up and sits on very important information. And this is indeed important to every man, woman and child in this Province. The fishery does not affect only fish plant workers and fishermen, Mr. Speaker, it affects the lives of every man, woman and child in this Province. And the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) should not be covering up information if he has it. Let us get it out in the open. Let us g~t it into this House and debate it. Never mind waiting and condemning Kirby, because that is what the minister is going to do. His strategy will be now - I can see him tomorrow coming in with a Ministerial Statement and going right aboard of Dr. Kirby, blaming it all on Kirby, when the minister himself and the Premier of this Province are more responsible for the position we are in at the present time than anybody else on the face of this earth, Mr. Speaker. MR. HEARN: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : St.

Mary's - The Capes. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker. The -hon. the member for Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In discussing the estimates from the Resource Committee, when we look at the poor attendance on behalf of the members of the Opposition, we realize, I suppose, now why they have so many questions and so many criticisms. It is unfortunate that they did not attend the Committee meetings as 2588

April 19, 1983 Tape 1182 EC - 2 MR. HEARN: they were supposed to do, obligated to do, where they could have obtained a tremendous amount of the answers that they are now seeking. Attending those Committee meetings not only gives you a chance to elicit information, but it also gives members a chance to have some positive input. We have had a number of discussions on the whys and wherefores of the·committee system. Certainly as a new member, I would have to say that I find it worked extremely well.

It gave many of us a chance to obtain a tremendous amount of insight into the various departments at a very relaxed pace, information that we certainly would not get here in the House with the constant criticisms and badgering from those on the opposite side. I must also say that the committee system worked practically non-politically. I have served on the committees for the past few years with some of the hon~ gentlemen opposite, including the only remaining member over there right now, the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) who was on both committees and was -there most of the time and contributed MR.

SIMMS: The next leader of the party. MR. HEARN: - I would not doubt it, I would not doubt it at all -contributed greatly to the discussions. Not only did he ask questions and find out pertinent information but he contributed with some positive ideas, suggestions to the ministers. And this is what it is all about. Certainly, more work was done during one day on the committee than could be done here in a whole session in the House. Looking at some of the departments that were discussed under the Resource Committee, departments such as Rural 2589

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1183 NM- 1 MR. HEARN: Developme~t, a department which has such great input into the Province of Newfoundland. Just a few weeks ago we were here very perturbed about the future of our development associati.ons. Now the Department of Development certainly plays an extremely important

part in relation to those development associations, associations that throughout this Island give us an organizational base in relation to the development of the rural areas. In my own area we have four of them, all working extremely well, combining efforts both on the federal side and the provincial side to make our district a better district. And this is happening all over the Island. And it is un-~'ortunate that the federal people can get politically upset because they feel they are not getting full credit for what is being done.

If this Province and if this country is being properly developed and the money properly spent,there is no reason why any government should get upset about how i~ is being done. The Department of Development once again, and especially here, I will just rrention it in the brief time we have, the

section pertaining to tourism. One of our great resources, our great undeveloped resources in this Province is our tourist potential. Once again in the area which I represent we have more to offer in relation to the tourist industry than any other part of the Island, and I would add any other part of the country. This tourist potential is now - we are now co-ordinating a programme through our development associations, We are in the process:; of setting up an organization which will comprise the various development associations, which will start putting our tourist potential in perspective.

So here is where you have various departments working hand in hand once again for the development of the rural areas. 2590

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1183 NM- 2 MR. EEARN: When we come to the fisheries all ~·le get is the question, Where is the Minister of Fisheries? Last week when he was away, busily lining up markets for our products, we got,Hhere is the Minister of Fisheries? The minister has lined up markets for all kinds of products.

He was telling me the other day that the only market he did not accept was a market for jellyfish,becau se if he arranged that he figured that it would lead to the demise of the party opposite . ~'l hen we tan: abo ut the use of wharves around the Province, the user/pay concept, once again we find out that the fishermen, not the small boat fishermen because they are not affected at this sta ge, but this is the start, this is the tip of the iceberg, and we hecome very concerned when fishermen with any size boats have to pay for using wharves.

And if you look at the rates that are quo ted and you realize that fishermen cannot always use the same facility, they have to move around and many of them would have to opt for the daily 2591

April 19, l983 Tape No. ll84 JV- l MR. HEARN : rate 1 then it will be extremely expensive to use the facilities if this comes into effect in l984. The Department of Mines and Energy: Once again we heard an announcement on the development of Cat Arm today and we will see how many jobs are being provided here. This goes back, perhaps, to the work that is being provided in the Province by the make-work programmes that are initiated by the Federal Government. We have even the member for Trinity- Conception, Mr.

Rooney, coming on during the week critizing his own government heavily for the way they are handling the programmes and the types of programmes that are initiating. He emphasized in particular the NEED programme,where we have regulations put there, restrictions,that enable very, very few of the people who are looking for work to find work. It is a programme designed for exhaustees, a program that works in the larger centres, the Mai~land centres,perhaps St. John's or some of our larger cities,but in the outports of Newfoundland,in particular fishing areas, this programme cannot work effectively.

Exhaustees are the only ones, or those on Social Services,who can be hired. In fishing areas you have people working in fish plants or you have people who fish; if they do either one at this time of the year and throughout the Winter they are drawing UIC and in many cases UIC is extremely low. They cannot go to work on those make-work programmes that are sponsored through the NEED program because they are drawing UIC. Anybody who worked last year and did not qualify ,-we have young people, many of them 2592

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1184 JV - 2 MR. HEARN: . who have worked this past three or four years - ten stamps this year, fifteen the next, eighteen the next- who never made it into the bracket where they could qualify for drawing urc.

They are still out there trying to grab up what work they can find, and they are told 1 'Sorry, you do not qualify, you are not an exhaustee.' So, consequently, the only people we have who can qualify are those who have exhausted their UIC within the last year or two or those on social services,and in many of our fishing outports we do not have enough people there to qualify for those programmes. In certain areas we have programmes approved or announced,up to eight months ago,that are still not in effect simply because the basic rules and regulations cannot fit into their hiring scheme locally.

Tonight, L presume, when the great Budget comes down, when Leaky Lalonde makes public the rest of FiS budget, we will find out what we will have in relation to work for Newfoundland and,urtdoubtedly,a lot of the money will be channelled once again into useless make-work programmes that will give us a few jobs now and set us up for ULC. Statistics that were announced very, very recently showed that if money put into make-work programmes was put into concrete programmes, that would lead to-full-time employment.we would 2593

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1185 SD - 1 MR. HEARN: save money in the long run, when we take into consideration the cost of the programmes, the wages on the programmes and also the UIC that follows when the ten weeks or fif~een weeks of the programme runs out,. if we would put that into the private sector, into the development of the resources which basically NEED is supposed to do. When our Departmept of Labour agreed to participate in the NEED programme they thought they were really going to get a programme that was going to put money into development of our resource sector.

We find out•that that is not the case at all, that this money is being slapped out so you can take people off the unemployment list so that statistics can come down. But,eventually, it is the old statement of 'what goes up must come down' • In this case, what comes down must go up, because we are only going to increase the employment statistics and we are going to be worse off than ever.

We hope that with the input that has come from the Province here that perhaps tonight we will see some changes in relation to t?e funding for those make work programmes and that when we say we have a make work programme it means making work that will be work for the long-term, work that will help develop our resources, work that will continue not end at the end of ten or fifteen or twenty weeks, not just a situation that sets people up to draw UIC for another year to keep them happy and then give them something again. People do not want that, Mr. ·Speaker.

People want permanency, they want jobs that they can depend on. This could be a reality if the funding was · put where it should be put. MR. SPEAXER (}icNicholas).: Order, please! The han. member 1 s. time ha .s elapsed. 2594

.April 19, 1983 MR. HEARN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : Mountains. MR. WARREN: Tape No. 1185 Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear. so -2 The hon. member for Torngat Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am forced to get into this debate,in particular,after listening to the hon. member for Fortune -Hermitage (Mr. Stewartl and the bon. member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin). I was s.urprised at the hon. member for Fortune -Hermitage when he introduced the Resource Estimates and he was talking about all the good things that were in the different departments. Now,my colleague reminded the hon. member about the 25 per cent increase in the Marine service fees. 2595

April 19, 1983 Tape 1186 PK - 1 MR. WARREN: Crown Lands and Forest Resources and Lands also comes under this Resource Committee. But the hen. member failed to advise the han. House other than saying good things about Forest Resources and Lands. Just look at some of the increases that the taxpayers have to pay. The initial application fee for Crown lands will go from $25 to $50. That is only 100 per cent increase. Not very much, only 100 per cent increase. Fees for preparation of titled documents, that is when our lawyers try to make a few dollars,·are going from $100 to $125. Now here is a 25 per cent increase.

Cottage lot leases,the annual rental fee is going from $50 to $75 increase. That is a 50 per cent increase. Now there are three items, one was increased by 100 per cent, another one was increased by 25 per cent, and another one was increased by 50 per cent. Now1 let us look at another one, the fee for residential grants. Last year it was $1,000 and this year it is $1,500, an increase of $500 for the fee,which means another 50 per cent increase. Then to add more injury to it altogether is fee for transfer of leases.

Now if my colleague wanted to transfer a lease over to someone it is going from $25 to $50, another 100 per cent increase. So just look at it. The smallest increase in those six items was 25 per cent. There was a 25 per cent, a 50 per cent and in two cases 100 per cent increase. Now the han. member for Fortune- Hermitage (Mr. Stewart,) 1 surely goodness he could have had the decency to get up in the House when he introduced.his Resource Committee Report and say, Look, these are the good things, and these are the bad things. And why could the hon. member not tell us about the bad things? 2596 ./ -

April 19, 1983 Tape 1186 PK - 2 MR. WARREN: Now ,the han. Know-All from Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin)- MR. SIMMS: Now, now: That is not nice. HR. HARREr!: The han. me l!'.ber was say ing 2597

April 19,1983 Tape No. 1187 ah-1 MR. WARREN: that this is the government's'position, the People's Conference on the fisheries is the government's position. Now the clergymen ,"The clergy calls for action on the People's Conference." I would like to quote from todays Telegram and it says there~the hon. member asked where is it. Now here is what the clergy said. "What happened to it?

We have not heard a word about it from the Fishermen's Union, from our governments," both provincial and federal, "from our ~oint councils, or, for that rnatter,frorn our action committees." No one at all has been tel-ling the people on the Southwest Coast,in the Burin area,what is happening. And I will tell you what is happening, Mr.Speaker. The han. member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) knows what is happening because the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) probably has told him, and it is so drastic, that the federal government, the Klrby Report, is recommending today that Option One will be taken, the modifications to Option One.

The minister carne into the House today and would not give a Ministerial Statement because he knew that once he made that statement he was going to come out and agree with the members on the Opposition for a change who said, 'Look,there is only one way that this can happen, go for the resolution that carne out of the People's Conference.' Also today on the eve of the opening of the lobster season, the fishermen do not know,as of three o'clock 1when I carne into this House,what the price of lobste~s will be this year. And the minister said in a question there last week, last week, Mr.

Speaker,. from the han. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder), he said, 'I am meeting this afternoon•-- it is a funny thing about the Minister of Fisheries, every time you ask him a question he is meeting this afternoon. He said, 'I am meeting this afternoon with 2598

April 19,1983 Tape No. 1187 ah-2 MR.WARREN: concerned parties about the price of lobsters .' That was last week, seven days ago,and the fishermen still do not know what the price of lobsters will be. Now , Mr. Speaker, we talked about increases i~ Crotm land fees , we talked about increases in marine centres . Mr . Speaker, let us look at the Department of Development . The bon . member said there was no one there to attend the committee meeting . I agree, Mr.

Speaker, As far as I am concerned,if the hon . member, in all due respects ,said that the committee should go ahead without us,fine and dand~ Becau se we have three hours in this House on concurrence debates and any committee that we missed, we can ask the minister,if he would stay in his seat, we can ask him any kind o£ questions at all. MR. TOBIN: You have an hour and you have not asked one yet . MR .WARREN : No, but I found out a lot of 2599

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1188 MJ - 1 MR. G. WARREN: things that you did not te11 the public. I have found out a lot of things that you have not told the public,about all the increases. All you were concerned about was talking about the user/pay fees that were introduced by the federal government,but you never told anything about the increases in Crown Lands and app1icati?n fees. So, the hon. member should also tell the House.when he brings in his fifteen minute

summary,the bad tni.ngs, the little few bad things that this government is qoi.ng. I was going to go to the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) but I' think I will make a feisty attack - is that the proper word?- on the Minister of R,ural, Argicultural and Northern Development. The minister today is supposed to meet with the Indian Band Council in Conne River and he is supposed to have a pocketful! of cheques for them. I am just wondering if the trtinist~r does have any cheques for the Indian Band Council in Co nne River ? So, what is the problem?

Is the problem there that the Indians in Conne River want to govern and direct their own affairs in the community and the minister wants officials from his department to interfere? Is that the problem? Or is it that the Indian Band Council in Conne River and the minister are in confrontation,on an ego trip and neither one of them are winning and the people in Conne River, outside of the council, are suffering? They have no services at all being provided.

The Minister of.Development today- I was hoping I would get the minister up after me, you know - the Minister of Development today made a Ministeral Statement about the Sir John Franklin,an icebreaker going into Lake Melville. Mr. Speaker, that icebreaker was supposed to go in there two months ago but because there was too much ice and the ice was rafted by the rapids there, there was such heavy ice there because of the rapid$, it was frozen right down 2600

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1188 MJ - 2 MR . G . WARREN: to the bottom,that the Sir John Franklin could not go into Lake Melville. Now the ice has softened up and the weather is warmer ,the minister in conjuntion with the Coast Guard and so on said, 'Oka y, w~ will send the icebreaker up this time of the year,' not realizing ~t the same time that the seal season opens up for the residents of Lake Melville, including Rigolet, on Monday morning. Not realizing that this is happening on Monday morning, here we are going to cut a channel to separate the people in Rigolet from the seal herd.

All he said in his statement was that it is going to be monitored by somebody from Memorial University . Fine and dandy 1 but is monitoring 2601

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1189 NM- 1 MR. WARREN: going to assist - the financial well-being of the people in Rigolet? I am very doubtful. I am very doubtful. The minister should also know that the people in Ri'golet will be standing on the ice with their ski-doos in full force and,as far as I know from conversation today with the Mayor of Rigolet, they are going to try to stop the boat from entering Lake Melville. They are going to try to stop the boat from entering Lake Melville. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : Environment. MR. ANDREWS: Order, please! Order, please! The han. Minister of the Mr.

Speaker, before I give a few comments on this debate that seems to be prevalent thi~ afternoon on the fishery,! would like to refer to what the member for Torngat Mountains (.Mr. Warrenl was just talking about, the situation in Conne River. Being the member representing Conne River,! feel obliged to make some comments. In support of the minister, who· is making the decisions here, this government is treating the Indians and the citizens of Conne River fair2y. It is the Indian Band Council of Conne River that is not treating the citizens of Conne River fairly, Mr.

Speaker, by not accepting today over $850,000-odd of federal and provincial government money because there are conditions placed on that money. But those conditions are no more onerous than would be placed on monies that would be granted or loaned to any other community or individual or firm in Newfoundland and Labrador. There are accounting conditions and conditions that would make sure, under the acts that the minister has to operate under, that the money is accounted for properly. And to say that the . - . . . Government of Newfoundland is holding up the money for the 2602

April 19, 1983 Tape No . 1189 NM - 2 HR . ANDREWS : people of Conne River, I believe is a gross misstatement. It is the leaders of that indian Band Council, who, for their own reasons, are holding up money going into Conne River. Mr. Speaker, I would like to put to rest once and for all from this government's point of view - it has been said, but I suppose we will have to defend it again if the Opposition keeps saying it - that this government did not support the People 's Conference . My 0wn name was on the Telex sent to Ottawa supportl-ng the ~esolution that came out of the People 's Conference, and it included the names of other members on this side of 260 3

April 19, 1983 Tape No. 1190 SD - 1 MR. ANDREWS: other members on this side of the House who are concerned about the South Coast of Newfoundland. I sort of get the suspicion that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary),and maybe some other members of the Opposition,have some inside information that they are not revealing to the House regarding the Kirby Task Force. The Leader of the Opposition is saying that Mr. Kirby and his people will recommend option one. That could be. I really do not kn.ow what they will recommend because I do not know at this point in time what the final decision is going to be.

Option one is not our option, Mr. Speaker, not at all. But more serious, I think, than all the bickering that is going on on the floor of this House over the past couple of days is the position of the federal government. We have been waiting now for some months to find out what the federal government is going to do. And they are meandering around this issue in a way that I find hard to believe sometimes. I get the distinct feeling that the people who are on that Task Force really do not know where they are going; I am sure they do not know where they are going.

MY latest information 1 today, as a matter of fact, is that they said to some union people yesterday that it may be June, July 1 even late this year, maybe 1984 1 before some fish plants open. Mr. Speaker, that it too late for us. It is too late for the one community I represent which has a closed fish plant, which is Ramea, as we all know. Mr. Simmons, the MP, has put very, very little effort into the situation in Ramea,and not only Ramea,but all the fish plants along the whole South Coast of Newfoundland which he represents. The people on the South Coast want to help 2604

April 19, 1983 Tape No 1190 SD -2 MR. ANDREWS: and I will just speak for the one community with a closed fish plant that I represent. It was only two weeks ago or less, ten days ago, I guess, I met in Ramea ~vi th the clergy of the community, representatives of the Fisherm.en' s Union -I am glad to see in the gallery today the president of the Ramea local of the union, Mr. Charlie Kendall - 2605

April 19, 1983 Tape 1191 EC - 1 MR. ANDREWS: and also with the council, which is a concerned citizens' group, and very helpful people for me. I only wish that I could be more helpful to them in this period of their agonizing. But out of that little meeting came a suggestion - I guess I could take some of the credit for it - to put forward for our debating point that we take the bull by the horns our­ selves-as the federal government appear to be doing nothing - to take the bull by the horns and to approach the Bank of Nova Scotia and ask them to appoint an operator for the Ramea fish plant, which we did.

We got really a negative form of response from the Bank of Nova Scotia. However, yesterday morning I took some more initiatives myself. The citizens of Ramea are inclined to favour the company that operates the plant in Burgee, National Sea Products, as an operator for the plant, and I believe personally it is a natural marriage for those two communities to be operated by one~ y ~- Mtt. ROBERTS : Will the offspring be the same kind of arrangements that National Sea had in Burgee? MR.

ANDREWS: I took the liberty,after some phone calls back to Ramea yesterday morning, -to call the President of National Sea Products in Halifax and,although it is very early in the game, I can say that I did not get a negative response from Mr. Bill Morrow, the President of the company. I do believe that they are quite willing to look at the possibility of something being done between their company and the Ramea fish plant, which is now closed for so long and people now getting near the point of - MR. ROBERTS: The bank would have it under their security, would it not? 2606

April 19, 1983 Tape 1191 EC - 2 MR. ANDREWS: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: So the Penney firm is gone. MR. ANDREWS: In effect, as far as I know the legalities of it, yes. You are the lawyer, you could probably better answer that. MR. ROBERTS: put it in receivership? MR. ANDREWS : -I do not know, but did they Yes, they have. The bank has moved in and put the locks on the building. MR. F,OBERTS: MF.. ANDREWS: MR. ROBERTS: So it is in receivership. It is in receivership. So Mr. Morrow or National Sea would have to go directly to Scotia Bank? MR;. ANDREWS: To the bank, yes. MR.

ROBERTS: I think the bank would be delighted to get it working, would it not? MR, ANDREWS : So for the citizens of Ramea, Mr. Speaker, I do not know, I cannot say at this point in time if this is going to come to fulfilment. I certainly hope it does. AS a matter of fact, at this point in time, !I! think th .e citizens of Ramea could not care less who the operators are. MR, . ROBERTS : MR:. A.mnu:ws : As long as somebody runs it. As long as somebody runs it. And a plant like this right now in this situation, there is no reason why the plant should not be open.

As a matter of fact, it is costing the banks money just to keep the pl~t there and to keep it mothballed. MR, . ROBERTS: Yes, with nobody there, they a~e just running up interept, are they not? 2607

April 19, 1983 Tape 1192 PK - 1 MR. ANDREWS: I would certainly hope that the Bank of Nova Scotia take a second look at that situation in Ramea. But, Mr. Speaker, we have done some little thing there in Ramea to try to get that Ramea plant open. But I am very disappointed in the whole business of these federal members of Parliament in Ottawa. Mr. Simmons has been going around the South Coast of Newfoundland and throughout the media in Newfoundland saying that these plants could all be opened if the Government of Newfoundland would only put some money, put their money where their mouth is.

That is very easy for him to say. That is so easy for him to say. I can say the same thing. Any member representing the South Coast of Newfoundland can say the same thing. I can say to him we can open the fish plants if the federal government will put their money where their mouth is. It is just to