Manitoba Hansard — 14 April 1970 (Sitting 38, 29th Legislature, 2nd Session)

29-2-38

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Tuesday, April 14, 1970 INTRODUCTION OF Gl:ESTS MR. SPEAKER: I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have with us tonight 25 members of St. Marks Anglican Church under the direction of Mrs. Peirson. This church is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Vital. On behalf of all the honourable members of the Legislative Assembly, I welcome you here this evening. The Honourable Minister of Finance. 9,17 MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister for Transportation, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for Elmwood in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: We're dealing with the Department of Transportation. Resolution 96. 1. (a)--passed; (b)--passed -- The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr.

Chairman, is the Minister going to explain or reply to some of the questions that we posed on this side of the House, or is he going to let it go through? HON. JOSEPH P. BOROWSKI (Minister of Transportation) (Thompson): I was hoping, Mr. Chairman, there'd be more questions so I wouldn't have to get up too often. I don't want to appear like the Member for River Heights who's always popping up and down like a bride's gown. I'd like to answer the first question, the first complaint, Mr.

Chairman, that was raised by the Member for Churchill about the map, and I want to assure him that this is a Centennial map and that next year, when the maps come out, Churchill will be on it. It was impossible to put it on and put the historical data and the old maps on and at the same time to keep it in the old form. I hope he appreciates that and corrects the impression he left in Churchill that I did it just to get my picture in there. He had another suggestion of building airstrips alongside of roads.

I can't think of any place where this would be applicable because there was just in between towns - there's no tenants; or in between towns -- that doesn't sound right; but the places where we have towns in the north there's no roads, so what we need is airstrips, and the suggestion that could apply to only one place at the moment, that's Nelson House, and we are planning on building a road there in a couple of years. There was further discussion on air transport in the north and I would just like to say that unfortunately air transportation is not in my department.

I wish it were, because if that was the case I could do the same thing as we did with the bus company. About a month ago I called in on the bus company; they were discussing the possibilities of getting a franchise to run through the Interlake when our highway is completed, and they asked our department if we would support such an application. I told them at that time that I just don't see whywe should. After all they were -- I think they were charging us outrageous rates like Transair, and that if anything I would encourage another carrier to come in and give them competition.

Anyways, the result of our conversation, we got the company to cut the bus fares by 10 percent into the north. This is why I say I wish aircraft was in my department because I think if we had the authority to grant licenses we could call in Transair and have a friendly chat with them and I'm sure there'd be a rate reduction. Unfortunately, it's in Ottawa's hands and there's nothing I can do about it. The Member, again, for Churchill talked about federal participation in the Northwest Territories. Well, I think I've indicated on several occasions that the Premier bas been dis cussing this with Ottawa.

He spoke to Mr. Trudeau when he was in Wi.nnipeg; I think it was discussed in Ottawa when he was down there with the Finance Ministers' meeting, and it's still my hope, as I indicated several months ago that Ottawa will participate in some type of Roads to Resources and Roads to Reserves programs. They don't like the idea of roads to resources because this is a program that Mr. Diefenbaker brought in and I guess politically

918 April 14, 1970 (MR. BOROWSKI cont'd.) . . . . . it's not a good idea to bring in a program that was popu lar with the people and a program that was good and would give credit to another party, so if it comes in it'll come in under another title, and as far as I am concerned I don't care what they call it as long as we can get a few million dollars into the north. There were complaints about the Lynn Lake road and I'd like to take a few minutes, Mr.

Chairman, at this time to talk about the Lynn Lake road because when we came into office one of the first major decisions I had to make, and I can assure you it wasn't an easy decision be cause we were barely established in office, and we had to make a decision on something that would cost eight to ten million dollars. the result of which was we took a trip into the north by helicopter and spent a day flying back and forth with our engineers over these various alterna tives that were mentioned by the Member for Churchill, and studying aerial photos, but there's no question, you know; as inexperienced as I am, it's pretty obvious when you look at a photo of muskeg and good high country and rock, there's no question when the engineers said it would cost $5 million more to build it to Snow Lake or Ponton, that they were correct.

So we took this into consideration; we took into consideration the fact that there was an availability of material; and the most important factor, outside of the $5 million, is that it would serve an additional community.

It's fine for Lynn Lake people to say it - they're still saying it - that they would like to save 35 miles or 50 miles, whatever the case may be, by putting the road straight, but I don't think they're so selfish that if we put it to them in this form: "Would you deprive 1, 200 Indians living in Nelson House of a road because you want to save yourselves 35 miles," and I'm sure if we put it in that light to the Lynn Lake people- in fact the Premier and myself did put it last Saturday when we visited Lynn Lake - I don't think they would object to it.

And I hope that the Member for Churchill accepts my statements and accepts our figures and our argument and doesn't make a political issue out of it, because every time it's brought up it causes more agitation, more uncertainty. \Vben this decision was made it was based on these facts and I think he will appreciate that the people in Thompson and myself, as far as we were concerned, we don't give a damn where the Lynn Lake road goes. All we are concerned in is a road from Thompson south, a good paved road.

So we had no mental blocks, no hang ups, and I hope he accepts the explanation why the road is going to Thompson; and there will be no change- the decision has been made and it's final. The Member for Assiniboia was talking about urban problems. I get the impression from listening to him that he was sold on the beltway and I'm very sorry I can't enlighten him on this. This is a study that was quite extensive and one that for us to say we accept or reject would be the height of irresponsibility.

We talk about a $12 million highway between Thompson and Lynn Lake and how much studying went into it, and for this government to accept or reject a beltway which is worth, at '67 prices, about a billion dollars would be the heightofirresponsi bility. We're studying it and when the decision is made I have no idea, but I can assure him when it's made it'll be made on the basis is it necessary and is it worth the cost. My argument has been with my colleagues, with the backbenchers, is for a million dollars we can do a lot of things in Manitoba.

For example, International Nickel built a new community, a brand new community. It cost them $8. 7 million. Now could you imagine how many communities you can build for a billion dollars. Maybe that is the answer. Maybe we just scrap the beltway and go over to Portage and go into Dauphin and start building another centre, and we'd still be money ahead. You know, this is something we have to look at and we're looking at it. -- (interjec tion) -- Portage and Dauphin; there's other areas that we could --Selkirk, Altona, Pukata wagan ... The Member for Morris who is not in the House . . . MR. BIT..

TON: I wonder if the Minister would permit a question before he leaves Lynn Lake? :MR. BOROWSKI: I shouldn't, but I will. :MR. BIT.. TON: You know, Mr. Chairman, everybody thinks I'm going to talk about Swan River but that isn't the case. I'd like to ask the Minister where Recommendation No. 12 -- if I might read it, it will probably -- I'd like to know where this matter stands: "That a Department of Transportation consult fully with the people of Lynn Lake, Snow Lake and Flin Flon so that these communities have a votce in the location of the main highway connecting Lynn Lake with the Provincial Highway System".

Have they had a voice or have any changes been made? :MR. BOROWSKI: Well, I'm glad the member asked me that question. I'd like to answer

April 14, 1970 919 (MR. BOROWSKI cont'd.) ..... him. First of all, we have the .Mauro Report which your government commissioned and spent a great deal of money and, incidentally, a report that I think is excellent, and we're following that report, and one of the recommendations was Lynn Lake and Thompson.

The other point I'd like to make to the member is when we came into office the decision had been made - first of all the decision had been made by your government. \\"hen the Member for Churchill quit, or resigned from the party, the program, as I understand it from my de partment, was halted until the by-election came along, and after the by-election they weren't sure which way they were going and it seems from what I can understand from our department engineers, the'yjecided to go ahead for Thompson in any case.

However, after the election, after the defeat, the engineers and the Deputy came to me and said, "Look, there!s a contract; a tender has been accepted and a contract is for the job now. There's no time for consultation; there's no time for anything. You've got a contractor that's got a tender for $690,000. Now you've got a couple of days to make that decision. Either go there or go there." So even if I could consult them or if I wanted to consult them, I'm afraid it was just out of my hands, I had to make that decision that weekend and I did. 1m. BILTON: Mr.

Chairman, I understand the track that the Minister is following right now. All I'm wanting to know is that in view of the petition and the demonstration of some three to four hundred people when the Task Force were in Lynn Lake, are they being givenanychGjce or has that matter been cleared? That's all I want to know. 1m. BOROWSKI: Well, Mr. Chairman, the member knows very well the Task Force was in Lynn Lake five months after the decision had been made. You could get every man, woman and child in Lynn Lake to sign a petition- it's just too late. I'd just like him to u;1derstand.

The Member for Morris talks about splitting the Transportation Department into three ministries. As far as I'm concerned, as I pointed out a minute ago, no Minister has any power over what Ottawa does in airlines; no Minister has any power over what happens with railways. Although the Minister of Labour may be the Commissioner of Railways, he's got about as much power as the members in Opposition. All it is is an empty title and I'm not interested in empty titles. If I can't have any jursidiction, any authority, I don't want that

section of the portfolio. So when he makes a big case out of it, I'd just like him to know that it's meaningless. It wouldn't make any difference if I had it. -- (Interjection) - Probably. The M~mber for Rhineland wanted to know if we were going to work on Highway 30. Now he tells me this was on the program for two years and I'll take his word for it.

I understand the Member for Portage found a program last year that had been on there for four years and, you know, as I said yesterday, it's an old gimmick; it's been used for a long time; we have no in tention of using it, and we're not going ahead with this highway. I want to tell the Member for Rhineland we have no intention,- for good reasons. We've checked it out personally, as I've checked out most of the jobs, and our experts in our department - I accompanied them- were satisfied that this highway was not a priority item.

Now his argument was - and he's argued with me privately- that this was on a program that was promised during the election and Iv.-ant to tell him, as I've said to many other members, I have no intention of carrying out one elec tion promise made by the Conservatives. None at all; not one of them. And I hope he under stands that. I've got a difficult time carrying out the election promises these fellows here made - a heck of a time. He also complains that we're building too many roads in the north. Well, this is really nonsense.

The fact is that for 100 years and more, the roads were built in the south, and if you come into my office you see that huge wall map; where are the roads? And where is the population? That's a very good point. The people are not in the south; the people are in Winnipeg. You've got over half the population right in Winnipeg. Now if you want to talk a~out the south and tie it into Winnipeg, you've got a good argument, but when you're talking about south of the Trans-Canada Highway, you look at the figures and you'll find out how few people there are and how many miles per capita there are.

They've got the highest miles of roads per capita anywhere in Manitoba. Just looking after these roads, Mr. Chairman, just dragging them, oiling them, looking after them, the maintenance cost is just out of this world. And they have been building roads, and I think it's for 100 years and I think it's time that we start mov ing northward, unless we want to say to the companies and to those that want to develop the north that we're not interested. You're not going to get development in the north without high ways. If you don't want to build highways, we need railv.-ays. You have to have something to

920 April 14, 1~70 (MR. BOROWSKI cont'd.) . . . . . get people and materials in there and minerals out. The Mauro Report talks about it, and the Member for River Heights who always likes to quote his Bible, the TED Report, I think I've mentioned it in there also, so if we want recommendations from knowledgeable people I think there's two authorities, the Mauro Report and the TED Re port, which say that we should look to the north for development. The Member for Rhineland asked about access roads. I'm not sure what he means.

Per haps he can get up after I'm finished and elaborate on what he's talking about when he talks about access roads. He asked about contracts that were let in the fall. I mentioned last night that by tender ing in the fall we could save about 10 percent and we've let out four contracts. I'd just like to rell.d for the record of the response that we received from the contractors. One contract - and the engineer's estimate, I should point out, if anything is on the conservative side, so when you see the difference in figures it could be larger.

The first job, the first tender was let on September 18th; our engineer's estimate was $635, 750, the low bidder was $574, 040 and the highest bidder was $891, 650. The second tender that closed on October 23rd, the engineer's estimate was $91, 250, the lowest bidder was $62, 000 even, the highest bidder was $107, 000. The next tender that closed on November 13th, engineer's estimate, $95, 924, the low bidder $59, 005, the highest bidder was $133, 274.

And finally, the last tender we gave out last fall closed on December 18th, the engineer's estimate was $120, 500, the low bid was $104, 996 and the highest bid was $166, 100, and I think if you -- I'm not a mathematician; I didn't break it down; but I think if you calculate it you'll find out there's a tremendous saving and we will be giving out contracts -- well, as a matter of fact, we have some right now are ready to go out and I would predict that three weeks from now when we start opening tenders most of them will be at the engineer's estimate or they'll be five or ten percent above the engineer's estimate.

And there's a problem; you can't take $25 million worth of work, throw it on the table and ex pect to get a good price. You're pushing too much work out at once. So my suggestion was yesterday, and I hope the opposition buys our new policy, that we tender half of the program in fall and the other half six months later in spring.

I noticed the Member for Morris in his remarks yesterday congratulated us for carrying out the program, or continuing the program for hiring Indian and Metis, and I would just like to -- you know I don't want to brag about it, but I think the record should be straight, that when they hired the Indian and Metis they used them as cheap labour. The contracts were given out to white contractors at $185 .00, they in turn subcontracted to the Indian and Metis at $85. 00.

That's the type of deals that they used to pull, and for him to come into the House and say that we're continuing their program is an insult to me, because I wouldn't carry their pro gram to the dogs. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, if they'd carried out what he claimed they were doing, there was a line that was cleared from Winnipeg to Gillam and from Thomp son to Lynn Lake. The total value of the right-fo-way clearing was around four million dollars. For that four million dollars we could have taken every Indian and Metis off welfare for about two years.

But they didn't put one of them on that job; they gave it all out to contractors, and contractors of course use heavy equipment and they used petrol to burn the stuff. There was practically no labour involved of any kind, Indian or white, and if that government was really concerned, as the Member for Swan River got up and expressed great concern about the Indian and Metis, I would just ask them where were they when they were giving out these contracts that could have taken everybody off welfare for a couple of years. I don't have any more questions on here.

If the Member for Assiniboia would like to finish his question, I would be very happy to try and answer it. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, I'm somewhat disappointed that the Honourable Minister is not aware or is not familiar with our Greater Winnipeg Transportation Study because the Greater Winnipeg Transportation Study is certainly not the inner perimeter beltway.

The Transportation Study covers some twenty-year period with four stages of development of streets, bridges, overpasses and everything else, so to say that he feels I'm for the inner perimeter beltway -- I'm sure by this time that you've been quite familiar where I stand on the inner perimeter beltway. I'm just as concerned as many people in my constituency and in St.

James in respect to the destruction of the beautiful 40-acre park, the Woodhaven Park, and the destruction of a couple of community clubs in there and, as well, the undue noise close to the hospital, the Grace Hospital in there, so I'm sure -- I did speak in this House before and have stated these

April 14, 1970 921 (MR. PATRICK cont'd.) . . . . . facts and at that time, on previous occasions, I stated that I'm quite concerned, and would not public monies be spent much better if it would be direqted to east-west thoroughfares right now in that area because, as you know, the only place we have is Portage which gets very congested, and I would like the Minister to consider another area · because, as you realize, from -- (Interjection) -- I'll go after the conference so that the Minister would have the benefit of my remarks because it may be important to his department.

I think that he should give consideration to Saskatchewan Avenue from the inner perimeter to Headingley. There is a great amount of traffic on Portage Avenue West or Trans Canada No. 1 west to Headingley which turns off on inner perimeter, then is diverted either west or north, and some of this traffic could turn north in Headingley, and right now the Saskatchewan Avenue Road is just a grade road, it's a dirt road, and even if it was graded and gravelled -- I don't say it has to be built up to a super highway but it would certainly take a tremendous amount of traffic off Portage Avenue.

But, as far as his statement in respect to where I stand on the inner perimeter beltway, I say if there's a demonstrable need for a beltway, definitely let's have it but let's not have it where it's going to destroy some of the beautiful parks.

I'm sure there must be alternative places where it can be placed or where it can run through, and if it has to run through and some properties have to be expropriated, I think it's nothing ·wrong as long as the home owners are properly paid for their properties, but to say that we're going to put it through a park which is quite low and you'd have to probably put piers to hardpan. It's a long way; for half a mile you'd have to have an overpass across Portage, have another over pass across the river.

I think the cost, it's going to be a tremendous cost, and there must be a cheaper way, less expensi\•e way if we took an alternative route and just have a bridge across the Assiniboine River. So it's not that I'm against an inner perimeter beltway but I think in the present, where there was talk it was supposed to go across the Woodhaven Park, I didn't think it was the right location.

But if the Minister can prove to us that there is a need for an inner perimeter beltway before we need a couple of bridges across the Assiniboine, if he can prove this to us, then definitely I'll say let's have an inner perimeter beltway, but not in the position it is. The other points that I raised to the Minister yesterday and I'm sure that he's most inter ested in the urban, Winnipeg problems and Greater Winnipeg area, and I'm sure he's had an opportunity to discuss the study that was made by the Greater Winnipeg Transportation Com mittee which has taken a tremendous amount of time.

I think the study took some six years and it has some very good points in that study and I think that \\'e have to act on it. In fact, Mr. Chairman, the Premier, the present Premier or your Premier, has stated in no uncertain terms that he endorses the transportation studies. and immediately if he's elected -- (Inter jection) --He did so. Mr. Chairman, it's right here.

This is: ''Schreyer proposes" what he proposes, and it states: "endorse the principle of a balanced transportation sy&tem contained in the Winnipeg Area Transportation Study and immediately initiate discussions with the Federal Government on means of implementing that principle, for example, by preserving future transport corridor areas. '' He says he endorses. MR. CHAffiMAN: Could the member indicate what document he is reading from? 1m. PATRICK: It's the Winnipeg Free Press, June 25, 1969.

It was just a day before the election and he specifically stated, and there's many other areas that he has stated, such as Regional Urban Council, and legislation to permit municipal governments for land assembly banks and so on. This was his platform, so you can't say that no, the government, or the Premier has not made those statements, because he has. It was part of the government's platform and I don't disagree with some of these points.

What I'm asking the government was you have not shown any action to the present time, you have not stated, so my questions are: Does the government recognize the need for a balanced transportation program in this province and in the City of Winnipeg? I stated the timetable covers, I'm sure, about 50 or more differ ent projects, and I'm not going to take the time of the House to read every single one.

It's based in four stages and I'm sure the Minister, if he's not familiar with this study, he should be and I wocl.d be most disappointed, as most people in the Greater Winnipeg area, if the government would not undertake some action in respect to the study, in respect to implement ing some of this program because, as I said, it's a 20-year program, it's in four stages, and every year that you delay the cost is going to be that much greater and the problems are going to be that much greater.

If we are convinced that we can rebuild the Winnipeg core where we can make it a good place to live in, where we can attract more people to the centre core of

922 April 14, 1970 (MR. PATRICK cont'd.) . . . . . Greater Winnipeg in respect to living accommodation, apartment blocks, transportation is the most important thing that we have to -- and I'm sure the Minister would agree with this, so I would hope that he would tell us something because we have not heard anything from the government to this point what they plan to do. The Premier on many occasions has stated that what defeated the Weir Government was ignoring the urban problems of Winnipeg, and I think there's an opportunity for this government to act and show us some action.

I know that the government has only been in power for some 10 months but I'm sure if the government cannot undertake any of these points now, at least we'd like to hear: Do they endorse the Transportation Study? Do they plan to undertake any of the programs and to implement some of them? Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make another point in respect to -- I'm sure the Minister must have some other preliminary studies made in respect to driver training in this province.

I know my first year in the House I recommended to the government of that time that we have a driver training program in all schools, and to some extent I think it's been very successful. Can the Minister give us any statistics v.ith respect to how successful it has been, what the accident ratio is in respect tothe drivers who have taken the driver training program and the ones that have not, and I would hope that we could get some statistics.

If we had some statistics, I'm sure this would encourage most of the other young people to get involved and take the driver training, because I think it's been most beneficial to young people applying for their driver's licence and in respect to safety in this province, because we know that the acci dent ratio in the last year has been on the increase. We've had a certain higher percentage of accidents in Manitoba as well as in the other parts of Canada.

There's a tremendous amount of slaughter on the highways, so I think this is one program that we can push and get our young people, get all of them to take the driver training course before they get their driver's licence. I think this is a program that we can really push to our young people and I would like to hear something from the Minister at this time. MR. CHAffi?.IAN: Does the Minister of Finance have a question? MR. CHERNIACK: No. MR. CHAffiMAN: Well, I will recognize you. The Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, I was most interested to hear the suggestion made by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia, and when he said that we'd been in power 10 months I corrected him by saying, "less a day". But then another calculation, counting on my fingers, tells me he's only 88. 8888 percent right because I only count nine months, and every month is very precious because when you consider what we've accomplished in nine months, then you can tell you that every month is great. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Chairman, by way of clarification. MR. CHERNIACK: No. A point of order I'll sit dov.n for; point of . MR.

ENNS: Are we hearing from another Minister of Transport? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, who has the floor? MR. CHAffiMAN: The Minister. MR. CHERNIACK: All right. Now if the Honourable Member for Lakeside wishes to ask me a question, I would of course be prepared to accept it, but other than that I don't think he should interrupt me. Being the gentle, courteous soul that he is, soft-spoken and earnest, I would not want to prevent him from asking me a question. But the reason I rise, Mr.

Chairman, other than to correct the Honourable Member for Assiniboia who is 11. 111 percent wrong in the timing that we've been in power, is to ask him how well based, how much of an authority he is on transportion.

I don't pose as an authority at all and yet it is people such as he and I and the others in this Chamber who have to make very basic decisions, including the spending of many millions of dollars, and when one deals with a transportation study for a metropolitan area which consists of half the people in our province, we have to be av.fully secure in our own minds as to what is right and what is best for them.

So, since he raised the point and I assure you I'm not deliberately trying to provoke a great deal of discussion if members aren't interested in it, but since he raised the point J'od like to explore it a little with him and other members who are interested, and possibly we can get some interesting and worthwhile discussion on this question.

Of course, if members are anxious to proceed v.ith the department and go into another department, I wouldn't want to hold them back. -- (Interjection) -- I acknowledge the lack of politeness that I heard from several of the perl\lons across the room, and having acknowledged it I would assume that they may not

April 14, 1970 (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd.) . . . . . be interested in the problem of urban transportation.

That's possible, and that's why I did take the trouble to point out that if members are not inter ested in carrying on this discussion, then as soon as I sit down we can proceed v.ith other matters, but I was interested in what the Honourable l\Iember for Assiniboia said, I was inter ested in the quotation that he gave of the Honourable the First Minister's talk where he said that he endorses the plan for a balanced transportation program, and certainly it is a proper program to discuss and to consider and to endorse in general, considering the word ''balanced" as being a very important part of what we're talking about.

Now the major part of this study deals with highways, movement with the provision of roads, and the Honourable Member for Assiniboia has endorsed the idea of a beltway, an inner beltway -- (Interjection) -- Oh, I see. The honourable member has corrected me: he now endorses the beltway if indeed the Minister proves a demonstrable need for it. That kind of . backward endorsation is one which is -well it's ludicrous, really, because we co-qld endorse anything if somebody proves a demonstrable need for it, then we'll say, well, once:it's proven we'll endorse it.

And that of course isn't helpful because I really thought he said that he does endorse the inner beltway but not where it is proposed to be, so right away he disassociates himself from the program, as I understand it, proposed by Metro. And this of course is an interesting problem. I had the ... MR. PATRICK: The beltway was not the whole transportation problem in the Greater Winnipeg area, is it? It's just a small portion of the whole transportation . . . MR.

CHER:!>.lACK: ... and I wonder that the honourable member didn't deal with it once he's dealing with the problem of the moving of goods and people in the area of Greater Winnipeg because certainly the beltway is not the whole problem. Too often people think in terms that the beltway v.ill solve all the problems and certainly we can recognize, and I think. the Honourable Member for Assiniboia and I will now agree that it doesn't solve the entire problem. And what is the entire problem?

It is the need to move people and goods and serv ices rapidly, conveniently and safely at a minimum of cost, with due consideration to-the quality of the living standards in the areas where that transportation takes place. And then I still think he said - but now I realize he didn't mean to say that he endorses the Inner Beltway - I thought he said that and I thought he said except where it is planned, and I want to tell him that when I was a member of the Metropolitan Council many years ago, we always found not only endorsation but df?mands for bus routes, not on ''my" street but on the street next to mine.

And when I say ''My'' -I'm quoting. All the people would come to Metro and say we need a bus route, but on the street next to the one where I live so it'll be handy fo_r me, but that I won't have the traffic there. And members of all municipal councils have had that kind of discussion. So it's rather important to set certain principles. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, I don't think the Minister was really listening because I also said that our problems in the west side of Winnipeg, the east-west traffic is more urgent than the beltway.

I did state that, but I said if there's demonstrable need that we need a belt way, definitely I'm for it. But on a first priority basis, I think we need more east-west thoroughfares in that area of the city. I stated so and ..• MR. CHERNIACK: That's fine, I don't question that, and of course in order to have a beltway you have to have connecting lines. If you have a beltway running north-south in the west end of the city then you must have east-west links as well, and you must have east-wesf links to the perimeter highway too.

I have never yet forgiven the government which was headed up by the party he represents for having rushed ahead v.ith a perimeter which in my way of thinking was much too early and much too elaborate for even today's Greater Winnipeg needs. However, I did want to talk about the Inner Beltway for a moment to indicate that already there has been a fair amount of speculation involved.

I don't mean just guessing and antici pating where it's going to be, but actual investment of speculation dollars into beltv.'lly areas, and I would endorse any suggestion that may have come from the Honourable Member for Assiniboia that we should move the beltway if only for the reason to show the speculators that they don't know exactly what's going to happen and so that they don 't benefit from the knowl-, edge of the plan location of any highway or any property to be used for government. The honourable member mentioned- and I think he quoted the First Minister in relation to land banks.

I'd very much like to hear the member's suggestions and that of others on the justification for the acquisition of land banks as being a program for municipal government or

924 April 14, 1970 (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd.) • . . . • any government to participate in in order to acquire land ln advance for the expected use for roadways or indeed for any other purpose including de velopment. One of the great pities that occur is when a municipality decides on a certain road way, a highway, speculators are quick to cash in on the development which occurs as a result of a highway.

I wonder if the Honourable Member for Assiniboia who knows a good deal about land dealings, that's his business to a large extent, would think about the idea that land banks could be created for such purposes to include the development uses of areas that will benefit from highways.

But I want to step now, and I do want to keep my remarks brief, to the question of trans portation as such and ask the honourable members whether rapid transit isn't a more urgent and a better solution to the problem, and whether when we talk about balanced transportation program which he quoted the First Minister talking about -but he wasn't really talking about regular transit, local transit, rapid transit and freeways and beltways and the whole works - and to suggest to him that maybe we ought to be looking at the development of rapid transit into the centre core of Winnipeg rather than highways into the centre core of Winnipeg and whether we shouldn't try in some ·way to discourage the bringing of automobiles into the downtown .core, whether we shouldn't make it a little tough for them.

And now I'm making suggestions of what we should be thinking about, I'm not for a moment saying that this is what we should be doing nor am I suggesting that the government has reached a stage of any planned program. But I think that this is a matter of interest for all of us. It's not a matter of any party's particular philosophic concept but rather one of general interest and recognition of the fact that when an automobile comes downtown with one driver and no passengers, it's taking up an awful lot of room and creating an av.fullot of pol lution.

It takes up a lot of room on the highway, it takes up a lot of room in parking and it has only brought one person down,

whereas if we have a transit bus that brings 40 people down, takes up very little extra room and doesn't use any parking space in that it's constantly on the move, whether we shouldn't in some way make it more attractive to ride public transportation and less attractive to ride in private vehicles. And you can do that in various ways. You can reduce transit fares; you can eliminate transit fares.

You could even subsidize people for riding in buses by having not movies, not full length movies but short newsreels maybe like they do in some airlines, but some say to induce them to use public transit and some ·way to make it difficult for them to bringing their cars.

Now I have a feeling that that would not be an acceptable solution, I don't think that our people are ready for it and I think that if this were proposed it would be unacceptable and that more and more freeways would be demanded up to the kind of freeway that is now holding up the development of Toronto- is it the Spadina Expressway? -which is now being built to run right towards the centre of Toronto and is blocked down there, and now they don't know what to do with it because it is creating so many problems.

One of the interesting problems, I might say, is the suggestion that has been made that one fear of these expressways is that people who live in suburbia and work downtown don't even know the kind of neighbourhoods exist in the city because they pass them so quickly that they don't any longer see the city as an entity and they don't recognize slums and they don't recog nize anything else that is hidden by those expressways which the Honourable Member for Assiniboia discussed.

It seems to me that we ought to have public discussion on matters like this, not prove the need in a demonstrable way but let's taik about what are the needs and what are the solutions and how we should approach them, because I want to assure the Honourable Member for Assiniboia, and any other honourable member who's interested, that no one has yet come up with a solution to this great problem of mass movement of people and services and goods in the greater urban areas of the world.

There is no solution that has been found, and there seems to be a conflict between the rapid transit concept public conveyances and the concept of the bringing of private cars into towns, into the centre cores. I hope that what I have suggested as being a subject of interest will appeal to other members who will be willing to discuss it because I am sure that we in government who are really challenged with this problem would be very much helped by intelligent and earnest dis cussion on this. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Memter for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I rise only to correct an impression that the Honourable the Minister of Finance I believe it is -I'm not just so sure- managed to leave with the members

April 14, 1970 (MR. ENNS cont'd.) . . . . . at th~ outset of h~ r~emarks when we appeare9-to tnq,t~te aj;\ unv•illingness to hear him on this subject. I point out that t.llere are a number of member!!~ 'of.: my group that are more than interested and have a contribution to make on this subject but we're waiting perhaps for Resolution No. 98 to come along, the specific one that deals wlth aids and grants to metropolitan areas and transit areas. · :\1R. CHAIR1IA:\: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. 1m .. EINARSO:\: Mr.

Chairman, I just wanted to ask the :\tinister- probably he might have said something on this - but he mentioned how we negotiated with the Indians or others to the white man in clearing land for roadway pruposes. I'm wondering what the sistem is that. he uses now. Do the Indians deal directly with the Minister's Office or does he have the work· sublet or contracted through someone? · . · :-.m. BOROWSKI: The answer is simple. I think the member should know fr9m readirig the papers, from the statements that I have made, I have negotiated contracts personally '1\ith the Chief.

For example, Nelson, the Chief and band, half of whom.can't speak English. We had to use an interpreter to translate what we're talking about and a contract was signEid with. the Chief and Council. At Thompson, the Metis group got together and I signed the,agreemen.t on behalf of our department, on behalf of the government directly with the menaffected. And recently we signed a contract with the Indian Brotherhood. This is the Grand RapidS' contract which was worth $178, 000 and the Ruttan Lake which was worth $100, 000. .This was firie '1\ith the Indian Brotherhood and Dave Courchene signed on their behalf.

The rest of them were · signed directly with the people. There's no in-bet'\\'een man, there was nobody to make a take- off as there was in the previous agreements. . While I'm on my feet, I'd like to answer a question raised by the Member for AssinibOI;,t on driver training. In 1969 we donated, or gave a grant of $20, 000 to the Greater Winnipeg Safety Council; in this year's budget we have $25, 000. Statistic-'1\ise we can't prove that it's working; I'm satisfied it is.

I've asked the Greater Winnipeg Safety Council and our Safety Department to make an analysis, make a study of those drivers that have taken the test and· those that haven't and compare them. When this comparison is in, if itproves what we sus: pect, then I would be prepared to come into the House next year and double~ or triple thai amount.

I think it's a good program and I think the Greater Winnipeg Safety Council\md all the people working on this should be congratulated and commended for the job that they'~~ dOing . for all of us. ~ .' Further to driver training, it's been my opinion, maybe I'm wrong, but it's been my opinion if you want to teach someone, the time to start is when they're young fellows.~ We know when we train our children at home it's a lot easier to teach them a second language or good~ habits or bad habits when they're small.

I hope that within the next year or two the Minister of Education \\ill see fit to introduce a driver program say at the age 15 for all children, and then we won't have to go through this nonsense that we are going through now. We can educate our children in school to drive safely and all the rules of the road, and I think this will be worth more from all the programs which we can bring in now which we' retrying to get at 50 year old, 60 year old people. You know, people are creatures of habit. When you've been driving for 20 or 30 years it's pretty darn hard to break a habit.

So it's my hope, ~though there's not much I can do about it at the moment, that the Minister of Education will bring in such a program. In the meantime, we are doing everything that we can to get the safetY pr~ grams spread out. We had one in Thompson last year for the first time. We're trying to ' spread .it out all over Manitoba and involve as many drivers as possible.~ MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Assinibola. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, I wish to thank the Honourable Minister for his answers.

When I spoke of the study, the Greater Winnipeg Transportation Study, I was not trying to . provoke the Honourable Minister of Finance- I hear he's busy now- my concern \\'as that this government was neglecting this problem. I know that the government can't act on it immedi ately, it'll take time, it'll take years, but my concern is that we cannot neglect this problem, we have to get at it. It may mean a Committee of the House to study the report and see where we can act on it.

My plans were not to create an argument, but I still fee~ that this is a very important and a serious matter as far as Greater Winnipeg is concerned. We have more than 50 percent of the population live in this urban centre and the problems are great and they're becoming great. I stated in my. remarks at the start that it's a four stage program. First we have the extension of streets, bridges, freeways and the beltway. I said it's a 20 year program

926 April 14, 1970 (MR.· PATRICK cont'd.) . . . . . but I also did say that I'm not going to deal with the whole report, but raPid transit was just as important. So my concern is that at this stage the government bas not made any statements. I wish it would have told the House that we're going to move in this area with the first stage or we're going to make a study or we don't accept the report but we are prepared to look at it. This was my concern, that we just do not leave this. I think it's most important if Greater Winnipeg's core is going to grow.

I think that transportation problems are of great importance, of great significance and that's the reason I was raising it to the Minister, not trying to tell him that look, you've done nothing in ten months; you've said nothing in respect of what you're going to do, what your plans ate. That's all we wanted, and I think the House should know what the plans of the government is in respect to the study. So that was the reason why I raised it, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to express a few comments on the Minister's salary.

I congratulate him on his initiative; I think he's going to be an excellent Minister and handle his portfolio very capably. I recognize the problem he's facing tonight, and I have suspected for some time in the estimates that there's a filibuster coming across from that side over there. I think it was quite evident in agriculture; we have another sample of it tonight, the Minister of Finance standing up and talking on the Minister of Transportation's estimates. It's regretful; ttls taking our time away.

I feel sorry for the Minister of Trans portation, they took the rail away from him and they took the air, now they've taken the city portfolio of Transportation off his desk which is most unfortunate, and I sympathize with the Minister, the problems that he's facing there as a Minister of the Crown and with those that ·are around him who maybe don't think that his wisdom is what it should be. But I congratulate the Minister on the program that he's put before the House and I wish him every success in his portfolio.

There is the Highway 83 annual communication this year which the Minister no doubt is aware will take place in Virden. This is a communication that takes place annually in the United States or Canada, and this year, our Centennial year it will be held in Virden. The plans, as the Minister no doubt and possibly the House is well aware of, is almost formalized or finalized and this no doubt will be one of the centennial functions of interest to many people, especially those that live along Highway 83. So I hope that the Minister will take some time off his busy

schedule and attend that convention , that 83, because our American friends have persevered for many years v.ith this Highway 83 program, which by the way is the longest high way in North America. It goes from the Gulf of Mexico to Swan River. So if in fact the govern ment and Minister could take an active

part in that with the Honourable Member from Virden, I'm sure the 83 Association would appreciate it and I'm sure Manitoba will. The other problem that I would like to draw to the Minister's attention, and maybe he's aware of it, I've been trying to get an appointment for a delegation to his office for the past six weeks for a group from Camperville and Winnipegosis. They have come in here faithfully for the last many years with their annual little mission about their road program out there.

Unfortunately the Minister was busy- I phoned several times, was not able to talk to the Min ister- I talked to his secretary and left the message with her, but I understand and I hope the Minister bas this firmed up because they phoned me on the weekend that they still haven't been able to come for their annual visit with the Minister to look after - and basically Highw;;ty 20 is the program that they're most interested in. So if the Minister would take a minute of his time and get in touch with this delegation, I'd be most appreciative for it.

The other one I'd like to congratulate him on is the driving training program. I think this is a step in the right direction. If there's some way that he could find a few dollars to help us with the driver training program in rural areas, it would be much appreciated. This I think is the answer to a lot of our problems of driving on the road today, and those of our young people who have went through the program, we find are much better than average drivers and the money spent and the time and effort given to that program is value that we can't get any other way.

So v.ith those few remarks I would like to wish the Minister well. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. A MEMBER: Don't filibuster. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, I'm not filibustering, I'm just going to extend a special invitation to the Minister to come down to Rhineland constituency sometime this summer when

April 14, U'l'O (MR. FROESE cont'd.) . . . . . the Sunflowel' Festival is on at Altona or when the Old Time. Value Days are being celebrated in Winkler during August. I'm sure that he'd find it n\Ost. interesting. I'd be only too happy to show him the various industries that we have such as the vegetable oil extraction plant at Altona of which I've been speaking about and the canning in-. dustry at Winkler. I'm sure that we have many other industries that he would like to see and that we would only be too happy to show him so that he could see the need for improved roads in our constituency.

I don't know whether it was here, whether some other members speaking. of the highway program in southern 1\lanitoba that there were very few people out there and that the need wasn't there. I can tell him that Rhineland is one of the most compact .constitu encies of the rural constituencies, and the reason for this is that we have a densely populated consituency in southern 1\lanitoba which is the constituency of Rhineland, so that we de n~d better roads and this is what I was asking him for yesterday when I did speak.

Perhaps I should also indicate to him that the need for the improving of Number 30. high way - and I've discussed this with him somewhat privately - is that a large amount of the sugar beets are now being stored temporarily and piled in large piles close to the railway trac~ · somewhere between Altona and Gretna and other places too. But this last fall these beets.were later hauled into Winnipeg by trucks, so that the highways are now being used more than ever. and if this policy is to continue that means that there will be much more traffic again in this respect on this particular highway.

Right now, because of the restrictions, meal has to .. be shipped out from the oil extraction plant to the City of Winnipeg and other points and because . of the restrictions they have to take to dirt roads. They cannot travel on the highways; they. · have to skirt around on dirt roads in order to move the meal. I feel this is a disgrace when we have highways and all that we need is a slight improvement.

Even if we could get one half of Highway 30, either from Alton a north to Rosenfeld - it's a matter of six miles, or the .other way around from Altona to the border, but I would prefer that if work is started, if they shoul,d. reconsider, that they would give us the first six miles from Altona to Rosenfeld anq make it a concrete road so that the road restrictions would not be as bad. And this is an annual occa sion; this is happening annually. So I do hope that the Minister does reconsider this matter, and certainly a standing invitation is open to him and I'm only too happy to receive him and show him around.

Some of my constituents were in last night when the Minister made the announcement. Certainly people are disappointed because this road, Highway 30 was on the Order Paper f9r the last two years and now it's dropped. It was certainly a shock to them.

I spoke about the northern road development, or the Minister did and I certainly have on previous occasions mentioned this and this is on the record, as far as the Thompson road I'm sure that the people of 1\lanitoba would like to see this road completed so that the distance would be shortened be tween Winnipeg and southern 1\lanitoba and the northern Town of Thompson, and once that is completed the other centres up north as well. The Minister asked me about the access road program. Some time ago, some years ago this access road program was being furthered in this province and I think it was a very good program.

This meant that smaller communities next to a highway were connected, and the connecting road was built by the province of the same quality, of the same standard as the highway itself, so that the communities living probably a mile or two or so away from- the highway would get an access road of the same quality as the highway itself and in this way would be serviced with a good road. This has happened and put to use in many communities, many villages and towns were given proper access to their towns through this program. It was discontinued at some point.

Rhineland has a number of these villages that were entitled to get an access road, but the program was discontinued and as a result they never got the access road put in. So I certainly would recommend to the Minister that he look into this mat ter and if they can see fit to bring this program back into operation , I think it would be a very valuable one and one that the people in my area would certainly appreciate. Now it wasn't that Rhineland was left out completely. Highway 248 and Highway 24.3 will receive some improvement and I'm quite happy about this.

I only wish that there was more than what is in the program for Rhineland this year, because No. 243 I think would stand quite a bit of improvement. This is the most southerly highway, provincial road in southern Manitoba, and also 421, we would also like to see some work on that one. So I do hope the Minister does come down sometime and I'd only be too happy to show him around and show him the need for better roads in southern 1\lanitoba. 1 ·i I I l

928 April 14, 1970 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge): Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to take this opportunity to extend to the Minister my congratulations and also to extend a welcome - I -understand that he now lives in Fort Rouge constituency. I'd like to say that the same courtesies apply to the l\.finister as to the rest of my constituents, and if there's any time when I can intercede on your behalf \\ith the government or \\iththe bureaucracy, just let me know.

The Minister's been a little smug and feeling pretty smart about offering jobs to women up north and so far he's gone unchallenged. I just would like to say that I think this is one of the smartest things that he's done because I know that these women are going to do at least as good a job and probably a better job than some of the men would do. Now the Minister is also feeling a little amused, he doesn't think that women really want equality and I think perhaps he's right there too. There was an interesting

article in the newspaper this evening on the Women's Liberation Front, in which one woman said- one of their leaders said: ''We aren't asking for equality, all we're asking is that the men get their foot off our back." In other words, I think they do feel a little pressed. Now I could perhaps say more but I always treat my constituents with deference and respect, and would simply like to say that I think Fort Rouge v.ill never be the same now that La Verendrye, Trueman and Borowski have lived there. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: I was again, Mr.

Chairman, going to speak on Item 98 and I think I prob ably-still v.ill, but l wanted to ask the Minister a question, particularly in light of his comments about the driver education program. I find it a little surprising to say that they're going to discuss one when there's a great number of the school boards have been operating these pro grams for quite a number of years and some of them have them entirely through their school system, in the urban area I know, and have been doing so for quite some time.

Some of them are at the point where they are all-inclusive and they are offered to all -I don't think they're on a compulsory basis but they're certainly available to them all -and some of the details are quite well worked out. I was wondering if in fact he is aware that this is going on. The Safety Council is not involved but many of the school boards have taken it upon themselves, along with their staff, to develop these programs, and I might add v.ith the assistance of groups such as automobile companies who are supplying the cars for them.

So rather than the government get into an all-inclusive expensive program ..,. and I know he's short on dollars, at least I would gather this to look at Item 98 - that perhaps the government could offer more encouragement to the school boards to go at it in their own way, they've been doing it, and get as much help as they can from the private sector to carry on with their program. MR. BOROWSKI: Mr. Chairman, I must admit I'm not aware of the program he's talk ing about. We certainly don't have it up north and if you have it down south here, why I'm glad to hear it. -- (Interjection) -- Pardon?

I'll take your word for it, I've never heard of it. Is this part of the school curriculum? -- That's fine. The Member for Roblin mentioned a convention. I've received an invitation and all I'd like to say to him is that I'm very touched by the invitation and if I po~;sibly can make it, I certainly v.ill. I know it's an important event for that constituency and in fact for Manitoba.- I'm also happy to have the invitation from the Member for Rhineland. I've been in his constituency. I'd like him to know that because his constituency is so small and compact.

I've probably been on just about every road you have there. It's not very far from here and when we were getting our program together, I just want to assure you I wasn't kidding when I said that I've seen just about every road that's on that green sheet. But if I didn't see it my assistant, Mr. Filuk, or some engineer went down. So all these roads were checked and we're quite familiar with your problems. Your other problem that you raised, I just want to tell you and reiterate what I said the other day, that there is one law for the rich and poor and to the farmer.

If you're asking me to break the law for the farmers, I can assure you I have no intention of doing so. If we're going to apply the restrictions or any other law, then we've got to apply it equally to all con cerned. It hurst the truckers but there's a lot of truckers in Manitoba - big truckers, small truckers and medium-sized. When you cut the weight down from 500 pounds per square inch of tire, or for width of tire to 350, you've:: cut their load down considerably and that means that they're not making their normal margin which they should be.

We have to do this; if we don't then you're going to be complaining a lot more than you are about roads. I don't have to tell you what happens to roads in the spring when the base is soft. If you allow these trucks to go

April 14, 1970 929 (MR. BOROWSKI cont'd.) . . . . . on the highways whether they're paved or not, they're going to break them up and instead of a highway lasting 15 years, which is the average length per highway in Manitoba, they'll last 10 or maybe less. So we're asking, as the previous government asked the people of Manitoba, to make a sacrifice of one month out of a year in order to preserve that highway.

When you consider the millions - in one year we spent $25 million on building roads and another 25 on maintaining. ·· .~ · When you consider the hundreds of millions of dollars that went towards the construction of these roads, I don't think you can get up here and lightly say, well let's disregard that because my constituents or my friends want to haul potatoes or beans or whatever it is. Well let me just say that we can't do it. I just can't possibly consider such a request, regardless of what they're hauling. One month is not going to kill anybody.

The lady member from Fort Rouge mentioned that we are emplying WDmen in the north. The fact is it's not for the north. The program of employing women is on we.igh scales and for the origin and destination studies for Winnipeg and southern Manitoba. There'll be no women employed in the north. There may be later on, but the pilot project we're starting is going to centre around Winnipeg and we'll start off hopefully this week by hiring four women for weigh scales on the Birds Hill weigh scale and the stonewall weigh scale, and then we're going to hire students from university this summer for the other studies.

She mentioned about equality, well I'd just like to -- you know, we all talk about equality, it's like talking about equality for Indian and Metis. We 're concerned about equality and I have a wife too like most of us here and I think she gets equal treatment at home, but there are some things that are not quite as equal. For example, if you want equality would you like to see a husband sue a wife for divorce and support? You know, this means equality. Do you want to go to war when there's a war on? Do you want to go and fight alongside the men and sleep in the trench with them?

You know, that's equality. . . . . . continued on next page

930 April 14, 1970 ::\IR. CHAIRMAN: (Resolutions 96 and 97 were read and passed.) Resolution 98. The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Chairman, just a few brief comments.

In case- I didn't speak on the Minister's salary, intending to make a few points here- in case I haven't had the opportunity to wish him well in his work, let me do so now because he's got a very difficult job in' the High ways Department, and although he doesn't ,get directly involved to any large extent, I don't think, in the decisions in the Metropolitan area, certainly the biggest problems in Manitoba lie in transportation in the :\Ietropolitan area.

I'm not saying that the roads here are more important, but certainly the planning is more difficult in the Metro area than it is in the rest of the province, by far. I was a little at a loss when the :\Iinister of Finance rose to speak at the time which he did speak. I'm still not too sure exactly what he was trying to tell us. He indicated that he'd like to see some discussion on the items which are of concern in the Metro area.

One of the prob lems, or one of the pitfalls that the ::\Iinister of Highways is likely to fall into, along with any minister that has to delegate authority, is that he attempts to make the decisions for bodies which are established for that purpose, and in this respect in particular, I'm talking about the Metropolitan Corporation which is charged with the planning responsibility for the urban area, and I want to say categorically that I think that Metro has done a tremendous job in the planning with the tools they've had to work with in the Metro area, and I think a hearty vote of endorse ment should go to them for the fine job that they've done.

We find that this body comes under a great deal of criticism and probably some of it is justified. It would be strange if any group that size didn't have some of it coming to them, But certainly on the plus side they should be congratulated for the very fine attempts they have made to rationalize traffic handling in the Metro area.

The l\Iinister of Finance, in his comments, referred to the overpasses and so on, the Spadina Interchange or whatever it was that he was referring to in Toronto, and this brings up the point that I think that unless you have travelled in other cities in North A~erica that you don't really realize the ease with which we can still move around the ::\letro area in Winnipeg, and the planning function of :\Ietro is to try and maintain this ease of movement of traffic over the years to come and none of us can complain now that we have a severe problem in ::\Ietro. I don't think that we can logically do this.

The planning of the inner beltway was a move to make sure that they are ahead of the pack in terms of traffic planning for the ::\Ietro area. Now it would appear to me that there's a fair degree of disagreement on the government side regarding the wisdom of the inner beltway, let alone the outer Perimeter, and the ::\linister of Finance, in his remarks, indicated that he thought the outer Perimeter was premature and probably didn't serve the function it should for the amount of dollars that had to be invested in it. Now, he may be right; he may be wrong.

Certainly in some parts of the Metro area the Perimeter serves a limited function to the extent that it hasn't been completed. We know that between Highway 59 and No. 1 east it hasn't been completed, and indications are that this is not considered a priority item at the present time. But certainly other parts of the Perimeter Highway must serve a function which is indispensable. Certainly on the south side of the city, in the area of South St.

Vital, there it does serve a very valuable function and must certainly draw off an awM lot of the congestion that occurs on the Pembina Highway side, particularly in relation to the university, and secondly, with the new hospital coming up which it services. So I think the only logical answer we can come to on this, is that parts of the Perimeter and in dispensable and the same will apply to the inner beltway, and I certainly hope that in the government's examination of the priorities, on the inner beltway or the Perimeter, that they don't consider it to be all in the same category.

Now, in particular, I want to recommend to the :\Hnister that there are parts of the belt way, particularly in the south part of Winnipeg, where a severe restriction is occurring, particularly in south St.

Vital, because that part of the Metro area finds itself first of all having its development restricted, inhibited, because the beltway has not gone in across the Red River and there is no bridge from Osborne street entirely through to the Perimeter High way, and as a result of this the transportation link from the east side to the west side of the Red River is virtually cut off and the development of that area is cut off.

Now it's not only a matter of development; the inner beltway services the university and you know the rate at which that has been growing, and in the interest of total planning I think it makes common sense that the east side of the river have access to that new hospital on the

April14, 1970 931 (1\IR. CRAIK cont•d. ). . . .. west side which is at the stage of completion, I think, in 1970, the Yictoria Hospital, and the inner beltway, that

section of it, that leg of it, services that area. Now we've been very fortunate that the land for that particular portion of the in:D.er belt;. way has been accessible because it lies in the right-of-way of the two major power lines, so no extensive land purchase has been necessary, with the one very startling exception, and that is the two schools which were affected on the St.

Vital side which were purchased by :\letro, alternate land was purchased by the School Board, and recently that difficulty has been straightened away and :\Ietro has advanced the funds to the School Division to get the alternate· site finalized and located, so that there's nothing now really stands in the way of the beltway servicing its function in that area and can do a good job, not just for development purposes, but to service the university from the east side of the city and to allow the citizens to have access to both the university and to the hospital on the west side .... :\IR, CHEIU."'ACK: Would the Honourable :\!ember permit a question? :\IR.

C RAIK: Certainly. :\IR, CHERNIACK: I'm just wondering- I'm not that familiar with the area he's speaking about - how many miles and how many minutes does it now take to go along the, is it St. Mary's Road, to the Perimeter and around and then back north again to the hospital and the university area? Rather than the beltway. ::VIR. CRAIK: '\\'ell, I guess it depends a great deal on what time of day you go. During rush hours it probably takes about half an hour to go around that way.

I would think that if you were travelling at the speed limit in non-rush hours, you would have to go about eight miles from the centre of gravity of St. Vital. :\IR. CHEIU."'ACK: And from the proposed beltway area? :\IR. CRAIK: Well, if the beltway were in, it would reduce the distance from the centre of gravity of St. Vital to the hospital, I would think to about eight or 10 minutes on average, so it does reduce it significantly. There's a fair-sized loss, a loss of about, I would say, four miles having to go the other way, but again, it depends what time of day you're doing it.

Now the only other suggestion that I wanted to bring up, was that there was a great deal of concern when the Minister, whether he flew a trial balloon or whatever it was regarding his overpasses on the Perimeter Highway, there was a great deal of concern and consternation among people who are working in traffic work in the Metro area, and certainly the overpasses on the Perimeter Highway, in the eyes of the people who are facing the nasty problems in the heart of the city, can't look on the overpasses as being a priority.

Now certainly you might find another body of opinion, and I would say, in saying that it's perhaps one-- I think the first requirement that my honourable friend you're referring to here wanted was traffic control for this particular purpose, and we'd like an overpass if it's economically possible, but the point I'm trying to make is in relation to some of the other problems and the investment you have to make, the millions of dollars that are going into it. I would doubt very much that if the Perimeter Highway were a part of the Metro system, whether you would ever find them listing them as a priority.

Due to the fact that the Perimeter Highway services as, to a very large extent, a service highway for the Metro area rather than a by-pass, that consideration should be given to including this highway, the Perimeter, in the Metro program and turn the highway over to the Metro Streets system so that they can link it all in together and can fit where necessary the inner beltway in with connections - and possibly here this is on the west side of the city where the city has grown out to the Perimeter - can fit in the inner beltway with the Perimeter Highway, and I think that you would get, particularly in light of the good planning that has been coming out of the group in Metro, I think you would get good sound judgment coming from them, and in the position that the Minister's in, having to make the decisions he has to make, there's no way that he can possibly have enough time, enough hours in the day, to personally face all these major decisions that have to be made in the :\Ietro area.

So I think we would get the best service all the way around if in fact you could turn over the Perimeter system to Metro. Of course, accompanying that, a larger grant so that they could handle it. :VIR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. ::\IR, HARDY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Firstly I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister. I haven't had the opportunity previously to do this but, like my colleague from Riel, I'm going to confine my remarks to item No. 98 inasmuch as it pertains primarily to the Metropolitan area and the contribution the Provincial Government makes to

932 April 14, 1970 (l\ffl, HARDY cont•d. ) ••••• the roads system here. There are times when I believe sometimes the Minister's salary, I think, should be re considered but I say that facetiously because there are many occasions when the :\finister provides a certain amount of humour to this Chamber. Sometimes I don't entirely agree with it and perhaps we should call him the Mixmaster of the English language. He does an admirable job in this area, Now the honourable member, my colleague from Riel, indicated that the one concern of his - and I can advise this Assembly, this Committee, that it's not only the concern of himself but certainly of the southern

section of the :\Ietropolitan area of Winnipeg, inasmuch - and these comments that I am making I have made on previous occasions and there have been these re marks, these remarks have been made by the Honourable :\!ember for Fort Garry, Riel and certainly myself - in that consideration we would suggest that the government give every con sideration to the construction of this

section of the inner Perimeter. I'm not in any position, as the Honourable Minister of Finance has suggested, and I don't profess to be an expert in this area, as to whether in fact an inner Perimeter is advantageous when you take into con sideration the amount of money involved, but I'm suggesting that in this particular area, due to the foresight of that thriving metropolis to the south, St. Vital, there is a tremendous amount of the (obviously that comment went over the head of the :\Iinister)- but the City of St. Vital did in fact, some few years ago, set aside a portion of the right-of-way for which this particular

section of the inner Perimeter could be utilized, and I would hope that this in fact can be utilized for this purpose. The Honourable Member for Riel has indicated a number of reasons as to why this in fact should be constructed, and may I suggest that in addition to the fact that the University of :\Ianitoba is there, the new hospital is there, this in fact will service the area from Southdaleand 59, that whole south

section of the Metropolitan area. Now there is one other item with respect to the overpass on Highway 59 - I notice in the sheet that was handed out by the Minister - that the Highway overpass on 59 in fact is to be in cluded; 59 and 100, Now here again I'm not in a position to argue for or against this particular item as to whether or not an overpass is required when you take into consideration the amount of money that is involved.

Now it may be that the comments of the Honourable Member for Riel are justified in this, but I have on a number of occasions, and the l\Iinister is well aware of some of the accidents that have occurred at that intersection, and I believe the Minister has indicated on previous occasions that this is going to be of a priority nature when in fact there is a hazard involved. I'm not suggesting that because of the construction of the intersection itself.

I realize that in many instances it's a question of human error that enters these un fortunate incidents, but here again I'm very pleased to see that this is included. I say facetiously that I would sincerely hope that the :Minister is not serious - and, as the Honourable :\!ember for Riel has indicated, that this perhaps in fact could have been a trial balloon in order to pay for the construction of overpasses and what not - that there be an in crease in the licence fee.

I would suggest that he was being facetious because if you project this a little further and you get into bridge construction and other areas, obviously your licence fee is going to be in the neighbourhood of $100. 00, and here again I think with the amount of revenue that is derived from the motive fuel and gasoline tax that in this area there certainly are moneys available. One of the biggest problems we have in the urban areas is the cost of urbanization itself, the high cost of urbanization.

I think both the Minister of Transportation and the :\Iinister of :\lunicipal Affairs, and certainly the l\Unister of Finance is aware of the high cost of urbaniza tion and the costs that it presents to urban areas. I'm a little disappointed inasmuch as in Item No. 98 there is an increase of only $516, 000 for highway maintenance and construction aids to cities, towns and villages and the :\letro politan street system.

As I mentioned in the reply to the Speech from the Throne, one of the major problems facing the Metropolitan Corporation, and in turn the suburban areas of Greater Winnipeg, is the fact that the Transit deficit itself is passed on to the real property owner or the homeowner themselves which I don't think is justified because to me there is no relationship between a transit deficit and a property tax though it could be that - mind you, this was in creased from three to five percent last ytar, the grants that were made to the Metropolitan Corporation for the Transit deficit which still resulted in something in the neighbourhood of over $3 million, and presumably this will continue to grow.

I can see no way, and I can appreciate some of the comments of the :\finister of Finance that in fact we may have to take a completely

April 14, 1970 933 (::\IR. HARDY cont•d. ) ..•.. new and radical look at the transportation problem. With aU due deference to the !\linister of :\lines and Natural Resources, I would withdraw that remark, Mr. Chairman, but this is something that I think has to be considered because we are speaking of three and four million dollars which in fact is passed on to the ratepayer. One other item was the lane mile contribution. Here again I mention that this represents only a very Yery minor portion of the cost of maintenance and upkeep of the ::\letropolitan streets system.

These are some of the things that I hope the Minister would take into con sideration. Although we are dealing with Item 98 at the moment, this also comes into Item 100 and there has been a marked reduction in this area. But I would close, ::\lr. Chairman, in suggesting again that I extend my congratulations to the ::\linister. He provides a great deal of variety to this Chamber and it's always with great anticipation that we stand here, or sit here rather waiting for some of these caustic comments to flow forth from that oral cavity and provide a certain amount of rela.xati.on to this Assembly. ::\IR.

CHAIR::\1AN: The Honourable !\1ember for Sturgeon Creek. ::\IR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, ::\lr. Chairman. l' m going to be brief. I also would like to congratulate the Minister on the work he's done on transportation and the problems that he has got in transportation, and I'll continue to congratulate him as long as there isn't a belt way goes through Sturgeon Park. There'd be no problem that way at all. ::\lr.

Chairman, I'd just like to say to the Minister of Transport that I have here in front of me, as I know they haYe over on that side of the House, a very large plan of the Metro area in Winnipeg and the transportation study. The transportation study is one that is put out by ::\Ietro and l' m not going to give them the bouquets that my honourable colleague from Riel did. I would say that before ..... 1IR. CHAIR11AN: :\lay I interrupt the member for a moment and say there's a little too much conversation and the member is momentarily being drowned out. ::\IR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you.

That the urban transportation study is one that is ::Vletro•s and they do have a tendency at times to say this is what we're going to do and don't listen to anybody else. I agree with the :\Unister of Finance that urban transportation and transit systems, everything are being talked about in the Federal Government, by Mayors and Reeves Associations and by everybody to solve the great problem that it is, and I think in the ::\fetro area there can be a look at a little different type of concept.

If you want to take the inner perimeter beltway concept with what is shown here in the different colours, it can be in corporated in, but I don't think we are looking for great masses of concrete in the Metro Winnipeg area at any time. I would like to suggest that if there is going to be - there should be some Committee of the House set up to study this, I'd only like to say that as recent as two weeks ago the Finance Committee of ::\letro, which is Council as a whole, passed Plan C which is the plan which takes them through Sturgeon Park.

It came to Council last Thursday night; it was tabled and it's going to be discussed again. But :\letro definitely- we have decided there's no more argument with ::\letro - Metro definitely has decided that Plan C is what they're going to do and only the Provincial Government with the discussion that has to go on about Metro Transit can change this concept. The question that I would like to ask is one that the Honourable Member from Assiniboia asked. Is the east-west road -- or the east-west transit problem or traffic problem we have going to the western part of the city.

As you know, Ellice Avenue stops at Ferry Road and Sargent stops around Berry Street; St. Matthews stops and Ness doesn't go all the way through, it stops at the shopping centre. The only transit area, the only traffic route to get to the western part of the city, which is growing all the time, the city is growing west, is Portage Avenue. Now on this traffic plan there is one artery which is shown for 1972, to start in 1972, or the western end of it to start between 1968 and '71, and I'd like to ask the Minister if he has had any dis cussion with ::\ietro regarding t he construction of this road.

I have seen plans for it; I'm sure he has too. This is the agreement that has to be made with the Department of Transport as to the depth of the road and what have you as we go by the airport, because here is probably, like other problems in the city, one of the major ones as far as transportation is concerned. That's all I have to say. I'd like to know about that. There's a golf course concerned here. I'm not trying to defend the green belt of the golf course. I'm a member of it; I would like to see it stay, Mr.

Minister, but if it can•t be done !think that these people should have enough leeway ·so that they can make other arrangements. That's all I have to say, and of

934 April14,1970 (MR. F. JOHNSTON cont•d. ) ...•• course I would like to see a lot more discussion on this other than this is the Metro's plan and it's firm. I think there should be more discussion than that. MR. CHAifu\iAN: The Honourable Minister. :MR. BOROWSKI: I'll try and be as brief as possible. The Minister of Education doesn't want to come on tonight. He's asking me to talk out the clock.

I've never made a speech longer than 15 minutes in my life and I don't know how I am going to do it but I'll try, I want to assure the Member for Riel that we are concerned about what's going on in :Metro, and as a matter of fact I believe in management committee we discussed where we are going to hire an urban planner. We realize there's all kinds of problems in Winnipeg and it's a question of time. We're into our second session in nine months.

I don't think there's any government in the past that's had to go through what we're going through, and being green Ministers, it's very difficult, but we'-re doing what we can insofar as ::\Ietro is concerned and we've had many discussions with Metro. As a matter of fact we have one lined up for Thurs day morning. Our working relationship has been very good outside of the first month or two when Bernie \Volfe was raising Cain over certain statements which I made. MR. HARDY: Would the 1\Hnister permit a question?

Actually, it's in-- and the ::\Hn ister doesn't need any assistance in prolonging the discussion but perhaps I can help him. Did I understand him to suggest that an "urban planner" is to be retained? Can the Minister advise under what department he will have jurisdiction, or under whose department? 1\ffi, BOROWSKI: I believe it'll be retained by Planning and Priorities Committee; it's not going to be in my department and I don't think it really matters as long as we have someone who knows more about urban planning than the Minister of Finance and myself. MR. CHERNIACK: Oh, I'm finished. MR.

BOROWSKI: I'd like the members in the House to know that Metro did submit a budget, and whether the members on that side or on this side agree with it I think is irrelevant. They have the right and the jurisdiction to spend money on their Metro streets and they sub mitted their program to our department. We went over it very carefully. We've approved it and as a matter of fact every penny that Metro has asked for has been given to them in the grant, Up to now the previous administration has been giving an annual grant of $3 million. We've upped that to $3, 199, 500.

In addition to this there's a carryover, I believe, of $341, 000 of money carryover from last year, so they've got a fairly ambitious program lined up and whether they spend it on Saskatchewan Avenue- I believe that's the route- that's really none of my business. If they think it's a priority item, that's where they're going to build; if they don't, I'm not going to tell them to build it there. Another item in Winnipeg is Arlington Street bridge.

The Member for Riel was very concerned about what's going on in Winnipeg and I think if he looked at the sheet he'll find that we've set aside $400, 000 for preliminary engineering for the Arlington Street bridge, This is a bridge there's been much discussion on; it's worth about $20 million; and I'm reluctant, I'm very reluctant to put that money in there, as a matter of fact. Probably if I had my way it wouldn't be in thet e, and for this reason: not because I don't think the bridge should be there, but because I feel that by doing this we may impair our bargaining position with Ottawa.

There is no question as far as Metro's concerned, the City of Winnipeg and the Provincial Govern ment, hut without Ottawa's participation it's going to be very difficult for us to build that bridge; $20 million is a lot of money. However, we've set aside $400, 000 and if Metro wants to go ahead and do some preliminary engineering, the money is there. Now this is in addition to their request of 3. 199. 5 - this is in addition, so we are being very generous and we are be ing concerned about what's going on in Metro Winnipeg, The Perimeter overpass. The :Vlember for St.

Vital somewhat changed his tune from last summer when he was very concerned. In fact we got in quite a heated discussion which ended up with me apologizing for saying certain things, It was a priority item with him at that time and I think it is today. It is with us. We have found that putting lights- our department and traffic experts throughout North America - found that putting up stop lights in many cases where the crossing is heavy creates more accidents than less, and their argument is you can't have traffic going on a high speed highway or perimeter at 60 !niles and suddenly have to stop at a stop light.

They just can't do it. They can't do it in summer and they certainly can't do it in the wintertime, so they say it's better to leave it wide open and pray that there'll be no accidents. The only way to eliminate accidents is to build overpasses, which are terribly

April 14, 1970 935 (MR. BOROWSKI cont'd. ) .•••• costly. The one for the Perimeter and 59 south is going tQ be approximately a million and a half dollars, and that's a heck of a lot of money. There's . other ones that are going to cost a lot more. He wanted to know if I sent out a trial balloon on a licence plate. I want to assure him that I felt this was a fair way of paying for the overpass and I had indicated at that time, or last year, that when I bring in a program, a first budget, a budget of our own making, that we'll bring in a scheme to pay for it.

Well, in discussion with the Ministers and the backbenchers, we felt that this year we simply would not go for a tax increase because, no matter how you slice it, a $5. 00 increase in licence fees is a tax increase. We may bring it up again next year because there's other overpasses to be built, at which time I hope members on the op posite side will see fit to vote for it. The Member for Sturgeon Creek wanted some answers to the east-west road, and again, I don't want to get into discussion because it relates to that program you have sitting in front of you.

We're studying it and if I say too much I may be inadvertently committing the government to a program which we have not accepted in principle. It may be three months; it may be six months; one of these days we'll have to make a decision. When we make that decision, then we can discuss the ai-rport road, the east-west road, the St. Vital bridge which I understand is necessary and vital to that area although very expensive, but until a decision has been made on the whole beltway question, I think it's premature to speculate. You can speculate; it doesn't matter.

If I speculate, it may be interpreted as government policy and there is no government policy at the moment. I think I've answered all the questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Just one question, Mr. Chairman, of the Minister. You made a statement that kind of concerns me when you say that Metro submits their budget and you allot them the money and they do what they decide to do.

Surely, if there's some roads in there that you feel are not right for the Transit System of Winnipeg or that you believe that people might not want, the government will step in and suggest to Metro some way or another not to do it. MR. BOROWSKI: Let me assure the Member for Sturgeon Creek, like my own depart ment, I could take $100, 000, 000 and spend it and justify every cent and I think Metro can take, not 3.199, they could take 10 million and justify every penny of expenditure. It's a question of picking priorities, and looking at their program, they showed us a program. I don't think any body would argue.

If there was some item that we felt very strongly about, I'm sure they'd withdraw it but I can assure you there wasn't and I can assure you that if they asked us for 10 million and we had the money, they could very easily justify spending every penny of it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, in joining my colleagues in expressing my congratulations to the Minister, I found his presentation very interesting and understandable to me when he ex plained at the outset that he didn't know beans about building roads. I felt that I was on side with him right away.

I don't know anything about building roads either so I can talk to him on the same level at least. I wanted to go a little west on Trans Canada and talk about the area in West-Man. I notice that there is a program on your list for a recap from Carberry to the junction of 1 and 10 at Brandon, but there's a spot on the Trans Canada Highway just about 2 miles west of Kemnay, if you have your map in front of you, and for westbound traffic at that point there's a hill. It's not a steep grade but it's fairly long, and there's a no-passing solid line about a half mile in length at that point.

It's where you see the green maple leaf and the number 1 on it just near the Town of Alexander. Now at that point, with the half-mile no passing line, truck traffic slows down and there is no opportunity for faster traffic to pass or for the trucks to move over.

I think it is substandard to any other part of the Trans Canada Highway that I have - at least that I have noticed in my travels in Manitoba, and I know the Minister has probably been over this whole route and he may have noticed this and his engineers may have this in mind, but it seems to me that we should be thinking about a passing lane at that spot, a slow-traffic lane on that hill. There's a little dip just over the brow of the hill which makes it even more dan gerous than a flat top at the brow of the hill.

So I would be interested in hearing the Minister's comments on that particular problem and I'd be pleased to know that the problem is receiVing some consideration. The other point in the West-Man area has to do with highway No. lA, and I notice on the

936 April 14, 1970 (MR. McGILL cont•d. ) ••••• list of highway projects scheduled for 1971 that on lA an Assiniboine River bridge is to commence. Now, would the Minister explain whether that is the present bridge to be replaced- I think it's probably known as the First Street Bridge- or is it contemplated to replace it with another bridge in another position? I'm just not sure on that point what the program calls for. These are the two points I have. MR. BOROWSKI: Mr. Chairman, I'll start with the last question.

We have been work ing in the location all winter, I think, and it seems to me, if I recollect this -- there are so many requests coming in for bridges throughout the province I just can't get it clear in my mind what the report was on that bridge. I believe there's some question of location, and I think the reason is obvious; you know Brandon much better than I do. I've visited Brandon and inspected the site personally with our engineer. There• s some question of location. I think what Brandon is really concerned with is to get a bridge, a decent bridge, so that they can get in and out of town.

I think that is their primary concern and, as the program indicates, they will be getting a bridge. The location I'll have to check with the department to see if there has been a final decision made on that, As for the other item you mentioned, on the solid line on a hill. I can't answer that question. I've been over that road several times, I don•t know if anything can be done or not. I just assume, if our engineers and our traffic experts put it there, they must have had pretty sound reason.

Now if it can be changed, it will be changed; it it can't, well I guess we'll just have to live with it until something else comes up, MR. CHAffiMAN: (Resolution 98 was read and passed.) Resolution 99. 4(a)--passed; (b)--passed, The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, just a question at this point, There• s a substantial in crease in the appropriation under the Other Expenditures item in this particular Resolution. I wonder if the Minister could explain the difference of about three quarters of a million dollars in this year's estimates. MR, BOROWSKI: I think the largest increase, Mr.

Chairman, would be for licence plates which are $530, 000, and we're going to spend more money on vehicle testing, I think if you recollect last year's program, we charged $2.00 per vehicle for the voluntary test. This year we're going to have a compulsory test for $16, 000 but as an inducement there'll be no charge, which means that we'll have to pay for all of it, and we estimate that the program will cost us assuming we can utilize it and get the cars coming in at the time we request them - up to be tween $80, 000 and $100, 000, That is largely the reason for the increase.

Driver program comes out of that- there's an increase in that, which was the Defensive Driving Course; ad ministration of snowmobile legislation; and there• s general increases which we find in every

section of the department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BARKMAN: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to hold up the estimates but in case the Minister should think that all is well in one• s mind as far as roads are concerned - and I will finish before 10:00, Mr. House Leader- the fact that not too much has been said from this corner doesn't mean that we don't certainly wish for some improvement in that area.

A little thought entered my mind, perhaps I should mention the fact that in the case of a small piece of road in the Kleefeld area, I was very thankful that the past government finally decided in 1965 they might consider it and I was also very thankful in 1969 when they said they would build it, and I was very thankful to the present government when they said last year that they wouldn't scrap it, and I was even more thankful when they said this year just before the estimates that these 2. 7 miles would be kept, the money would be kept, and I want to thank the Minister that he• s put it in the program for next year and I hope the road will be built.

MR, GREEN: Mr. Chairman, I move the Committee rise. MR, CHAmMAN: Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, and begs leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Crescent wood, that the report of the Committee be received. MR. SPEAKER presented the motic.il and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: It is now 10:00 o•clock. The House is adjourned and will stand adjourned until 2:30 tomorrow (Wednesday) afternoon.

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-2-38
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 2nd hansardpdf 38.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
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